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A Master's In CS or a Master's In Game Programming?
Rustcycle asks: "I'm attending the University of Colorado at Colorado Springs, which has just announced that they are offering a Master's Degree in their Games and Media Integration (GMI) program. There is a fair amount of overlap between the GMI curriculum and the CS courses, so I'm considering a switch in degrees. If you were hiring MS grads outside the game industry for visualization work, am I worth more to you with the more specialized program or would you be more interested in me if I had more exposure? Within the gaming industry, how much does a specialized degree compel a company to hire a recent grad?"
As someone who's worked in games and in game related industries, I'll tell you that the 'Games' degrees are largely laughed at by those of us in the industry.
Good fundamentals are what I care about. I can teach you the domain specific knowledge you need to know, but if you don't have the fundamentals you'll never be good enough for me to bother with.
Good luck!
I currently have no clever signature witicism to add here.
from what I've heard, you don't come out with anywhere near the amount of math that you need to do game programming from a CS degree. Since game programming is WAY harder in that area, you definitely need that degree, trust me. Disregard what anyone says about what degree people will hire you with because all they really care about is what you've learned and what you can do because of it. It sounds like they did a decent job with the degree too in that it takes out everything you don't need for game programming but leaves in the basic and advanced universal programming skills that you'd need in both.
Google's Super Secret Search Algorithm: SELECT @search_results FROM internet WHERE @search_results = 'good'
Forget a specialist restrictive subset of development, keep your options open for the future.
However, find a group of buddies and sit down as a team and code up your own games.
Have fun.
liqbase
Do not get the games degree. Stick with CS. It's worth something.
Please.
A gaming degree doesn't mean squat to me when I'm looking for people. What is important is what they've done and how they are as a person. Passion is the strongest dye on the planet and it stains everything that someone does. If you don't have a lot to show then you're not passionate about games and you will be left in the dust by the people who are.
That which we call coding, by any other job would smell as sweet.
i'd be happier hiring someone with practical knowledge.
A Master's degree is next to worthless in CS. What impresses me when hiring is actual experience. Unless you're doing something algorithmically interesting (in which case, go math, but anyway...) most CS work is about a mindset and experience solving real problems. Theory beyond the undergrad level is superfluous.
If you have to choose, go with the game-centric one, but I'd spend two years writing games instead.
My two cents.
Looking for a Rails developer in Chapel Hill?
Man gotta have skillz.. No seriously. ;-) Demonstrate an understanding of principle concepts across different computing niches; that's what makes you an asset to your employer and, should you need other work, yourself.
I'm about to graduate with a BS of Game Design and Development from Full Sail. It's mostly just development, since designing is something hard to teach, but, from my experience, Full Sail, Digipen and Guild Hall are among the best if you're trying to become a game developer. Ignore the people that say people in the industry laugh at gaming schools. Ignore the people that say if you don't go to a gaming school, you can never become a game developer. It really depends on you. Education is a tool, among many, not the one and only thing that will determine whether you'll get the job. So, do your research, and figure it out. Honestly, screw the paper that says you graduated, go with what gives you the best education. That's why I chose Full Sail.
Wheel in the sky keeps on turnin'.
Yup. You definitely don't want to use loud math in a game. It's very distracting.
Was taking a compiler and OS theory rather than data base. Compiler theory is MUCH more interesting, BUT all the jobs are for data base. So if you want a job take basic CS, if you want a FUN job, but don't mind flipping burgers awhile before finding the
FUN job, take the game option. If you have the $$$ consider a dual degree if most of the course work is the same.
The fact of life in the video game industry is that once you been in the industry for 10 years and/or over 30 years old, you're no good to the cheap bean counters who run a lot of these game companies. Once you're out of the industry, you're need to get a REAL JOB (TM)! Get a regular CS degree and take any game-related classes you might be interested on the side. The key thing outside of school is always keep learning new stuff, have an exit strategy to get into the next job, manage your career that benefits your situation the best and stay healthy.
"Ignore the people that say people in the industry laugh at [trade] schools. Ignore the people that say if you don't go to a [traditional] school, you can never become a [computer programmer]."
You idiot. If you're going to bother getting a degree, get a degree. If you're just trying to learn how to make games, go to trade school.
Best read in good ol' Monaco 9 point.
Lets see. Video games have been out for a while. Most of the programmers are Comp Sci degree holders. So you can do Game Programming with a CS degree, but can you do Comp Sci with a Game Programming degree?
Most people have multiple careers. Choose wisely.
I might consider you to work in my department, but only because I understand the IT requirements of a true game design degree. However, most people, including my company as a whole, would turn you away because of your degree.
All of the commercials you see on television about "Get a degree in game design in two years! Play games for a living!" typically tend to attract the type of employee that you don't want to be associated with.
If you can contemplate other work then you're already not dedicated enough to work in the games industry.
Its crazy long, hard hours for low pay. You gotta know why you're there.
As someone in the game industry, I care absolutely zero for what degree you have. Seriously. It makes no difference to me if you have a MS in game development or a PhD in agriculture. I simply don't care. If you wanted me to hire you, you'd have to have some proof of your skills - a game you worked on, a significant amount of code you'd done (or art, if you were an artist). Something that can prove you actually know what you're doing, and not simply that you have a piece of paper.
The "game degree" path may push you through making an actual game. Or it might not. I really don't know, and I honestly don't care. Pick your classes based on what you'll learn from them, not what your diploma will say.
This assumes you want to get a job at one of the smaller more personal companies, not a code-monkey job at a behemoth company.
Breaking Into the Industry - A development log about starting a game studio.
Getting a degree in game programming instead of CS is a bit like getting a degree specifically in rap instead of all music. Sure, everyone wants the bling bling and the fly girls that most well-known rappers get for basically reciting bad poetry and appearing in videos, but the music cabal can (or will) only support so many people. If you don't make it in rap/game programming, fat lot of good that degree will do you.
That said, most CS degrees don't focus on the specific techniques used in game programming, so you will need to do some additional learning on your own if you're planning on going into games.
If you want a job in the games industry (as a developer), you need the following (forgive the things I've forgotten):
1: Good C++ engineering skills. Have this as part of your portfolio you send with a resume
2: A good understanding of algorithms in general, both single and multithreaded
3: Datastructures
4: Linear Algebra
5: If you want to be a rendering guy (which I kind of am, though more generally I'm a high performance guy), you need calculus.
6: Basic physics
7: Depending on what specifically you want to do, some 'advanced' (ie second year) physics
8: Operating systems. That is, how does the OS work, how does that impact me as a software developer.
Things that can't hurt: Familiarity with some game specific problems, such as rendering, game AI, the slightly different philosophy for some of the advanced topics like networking and distributed systems. Obviously you need to know how to program in Windows, even minimally. If you have C++ skills by the time you graduate you can easily apply those to consoles and probably mobiles.
Can you get all of those with an MSc in either CS or Game development? I suspect yes. With the game development you're probably marginally more prepared for game dev, after all this is MSc level, not BSc. Being at the MSc level means you're focusing your research interests and advanced topics on the details of some game related problems, but you can do that in a regular MSc just as well as in GD (that's what I'm doing/did, which is graphics stuff as an MSc in CS).
So which is better? The GD might give you a tiny edge over an equivalent CS person (after all you've demonstrated your interest), on the other hand, the CS MSc means you can, after working 80 hours a week for 3 months of 'crunch time' decide to screw this and work somewhere else, and be equally valuable. Also your employer knows you at least on paper are more attractive elsehwere, meaning they may be willing to do a little extra to keep you, at worst they treat you the same as every other developer they have.
Personally, I would do the MSc in CS, with a research topic/thesis on a topic that impacts game developers. If they like you, they'll give you a job, if not you still have a normal sounding MSc on paper you can use to work elsewhere. Esspecially if you're a graphics guy like me, diversify: Take medical imaging as well as game related graphics.
That's mostly what I got from a conference held in london ontario a couple of weeks ago (futureplay).
The only other useful tidbit I picked up, was a game dev studio can be picky enough to take the only the top 10% of CS grads out there. The huge desire to go into the game business means they have a large talent pool, and while right now you may feel you measure up, the last thing you want is to get your degree and find out 3 months from now that you don't.
P.S. I met some of the people setting up this programme at the conference, I may even have met you if you were there (I was the tall thin loud one), it looks like a good program though I'd prefer a MSc in CS with a research topic in game development than a MSc in game development, I don't think you're done a disservice with either.
best response ever
Get a masters in baiting.
I have one, and it rocks.
Game programs have been somewhat useful for finding employees, but we don't actually think that the students are learning particularly valuable skills in the programs.
A CS or EE degree will almost certainly serve you better throughout your life than a game/media degree, but if getting into the industry immediately is your overriding concern, a game program will help with contacts and opportunities.
Exceptional merit will eventually be noticed (perhaps not as quickly as you would like, though), and a degree of any sort is not required if you can conclusively demonstrate that you will contribute great value to a company. However, many entry level positions are filled based on people's opinions about potential, and honest assessments from faculty that work with lots of students does carry some weight.
The best advice is "be amazing", but "diligent and experienced" counts for quite a bit.
John Carmack
Gaming Degrees is where most online degrees were 5 or 10 years ago -- they're not taken to seriously in industry and they somewhat limit your options. Looking at the syllabus and the school, it appears to be a new direction for a decent third tier E-school. However, you're going to have a difficult time moving into another industry beyond general tech support -- simply b/c some HR bean counter isn't going to know WTF your degree with mean.
If you decide to leave Gaming and go into other forms of IT, that Degree won't have the same traction as a Comp Sci or Math degree. ITOH, you can get the CS Masters, focus your research or thesis on gaming and still get your dream job.
- Cappa
I don't understand why this is flamebait? Does anyone?
Please give this serious consideration. Having received a BS in CS and spending a little less than a decade creating software professionally (not game programming). From my experience, I'd rather higher someone with a BS who is intelligent and has several years of good experience than someone who only has an MS. I've unfortunately run into too many of these folks who lack the ability to cope with the real world. It seems like the best use of these advanced degrees are if you want to stay in school and teach.
If you really are determined to get an advanced degree please, please, please get a general CS degree (Software Engineering possibly?). It will serve you much better in the long run than some thing like game programming.
Whatever path you choose, good luck.
Klein bottle for rent - inquire within.
I'd say definitely go for CS, but as a game programmer that has been in the industry for over 14 years I'd say #1 on the list would actually be: Bachelor of Arts: Computer Science More math courses, less "engineering" courses. At least that's how I remember it when I was in school (getting a BA in CS, of course).
Well everyone's thrown in their two cents. Now while I can't tell you what degree to get. I can add another perspective to the issue.
Serious Games: Games That Educate, Train, and Inform and Learning by Doing: A Comprehensive Guide to Simulations, Computer Games, and Pedagogy in e-Learning and Other Educational Experiences
Most of the advice here about games (and anything related) is shaped by people's exposure to them. But games and the technology surrounding them has a serious side as well as serious applications. You can even tour Notre Dame.
I have plenty of PDF's related to the application of games outside peoples narrow view of them. e.g. Urban planning, virtual tours, architecture, etc.
How about going back to suck on your momma's teet for a few more years until you're ready to make your own decisions?
Nothing wrong with asking advice, but you're not asking which path might match your interests. You're asking which piece of paper might look better to some hypothetical employer at some point in the future.
Let me find my crystal ball...oh yeah! I don't have one! Neither does anyone else here. So no one can answer your question. You think one field is hot, so everyone who doesn't know what to major in goes to that field. Then when you graduate there's a glut and you're S.O.L.
How about you say, these are my interest, these are the types of classes I want to take. Is there a degree program to match those?
If there's any hope of avoiding the troll mods, here is the answer to your question. Best degree to help you get hired? MBA and learn Chinese.
Note: I am a game developer, and therefore have at least an informed opinion on this.
If your dead focused on going into games, then getting the GMI degree is probably a better bet. But if you want to keep your options open, go for the CS degree.
The primary difference would be that with the GMI degree, you will end up taking courses that are very important to Game development at the expense of some other skills. (ie: I would guess that the GMI degree will get you courses on Matrix and Vector math, and the particulars of pixel shaders, instead of things like compiler theory and systems programming).
The trade off is that there really aren't a whole lot of jobs out there that require the particular combination of 3d Math and graphics knowledge that game development requires. The graphics and animation stuff will come in handy if you decide to try your hand at making special effects software, but knowing how to transform a point from local space to screen space wont help you get a job doing Linux programming for a telecom company.
On top of that, the games industry is just not as mature an industry as other programming jobs. Things like the ea_spouse incident with EA's overtime practices are one aspect. And the industry as a whole needs to get a much better grip on the project management side of things. Things have been improving, but there is still a long way to go.
Anyway, if you just want to be a programmer, the CS degree is the way to go. But if you want to be a game programmer specifically, go for the GMI degree.
END COMMUNICATION
I've just started an MSc in Comp Games Systems...
I generally spend my time reading LWN, dabbling with gdb trying to extend programs, and coding glue backends with perl.
My C and C++ skills are great. I was the best programming I knew at my undergrad course (computer systems)... I think in terms of the bits and bytes, fastest code paths and about the underlying processor architecture. I am simply a very good programmer. (and not so arrogant)
However. I started this course so I could do a portfolio. I known for a while that I have to learn and cover pixel and vertex shaders in my own time, and implement them in my MSc project (my BSc FYP was low level image process and it was bloody brilliant... No extern APIs!)...
Nottingham hosted a "game developers" thing, where you could meet some developers. All I can say is I think it was the worst organised "thing" I have ever attended. To compound the issues, the developers were dry and the one who did take my email did not email me back.
I've asked and asked; emailed and and emailed. All I want is a game development company to sponsor my masters thesis - I want someone to set the deliverables and give me an area on which to focus; I don't need monetary support... I want an aim!
Sadly, as I said, I never get replies. The one reply I've had was for 16-yearolds introducing computer games as a very hard subject for people with real degrees (note: i just got a f*cking Computer Systems degree from a Russell group uni [think ivy league])... *sigh*. It kinda sucks when I know that I know a helluvalot about the underlying processor systems than the people that flog me off...
So yes. I'm rambling but I have no respect for the system. I have no respect for learning anything other than more math as MSc level... It's algorithms you want. Try focusing on more linear algebra and itterative work (ie: some image processing - matricies)
Maybe put the money you'd spend on that MSc into a bank account... Live at home. Study game engines yourself... Ogre? Hell start with gwin... get some books (Mathetics for 3d Game Programming & Computer Graphics by Lengvel is a must but steep!)
I hope, i really do, that come October I'll be eating my own words, playing a wonderful prototype I've created.
Matt
(nb: browsing the quake 3 src and reading LKML/lwn or eric raymond's blog is a great way to expand your understanding of theories and practice)
Our Universities are so degraded. Next will be a degree in "Gamer Studies".
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
If you have a Masters in CS and have a keen interest in writing games you should be able to create proficient demos showing your technical and artistic skills for creating games.
If you get a Masters in Game Programming you will have a harder time convincing someone outside the Game industry that your skills are appropriate to their industry.
Assuming you absolutely only intend to go in to Game Programming related jobs then either are probably equally good choices, but if there is any chance at all you'll take a job outside of the game industry then there isn't really a choice.
Well if this is John Carmack. I believe that you didn't go the CS route.*
*In other words you're one of the old school programmers who basically learned it "on the job" so to speak. At least that's the impression "Masters of Doom" gave.
Any game degree is laughed at by most IT shops. I've always thought of gaming majors as kids who just want to play, whereas people with a CS degree are more serious about their work. Whether or not that's true in all cases is another story, but when an employer is looking at your resume and he sees "Masters in Videogame Devel" he's not going to take you seriously; it doesn't matter how good you are. And remember that if your goal is actually to be a videogame developer I still say go with CS. You can still be a game programmer with a CS degree plus you have a more general degree to fall back on.
http://www.gnwc.ca/mdm/index.htm I'm in Vancouver and this discussion reminded me that this new program is set to begin here. Not sure how unique it is. And I have no affiliation with it.
Bioware was started by two medical doctors who wrote code in their garage for fun. Just don't suck, or be really good at what you do, and you will find a job.
Everyone wants to change their bathroom.
Technology -- No Place For Wimps! Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Chatroom -- http://www.wemissjerry.org
C++ is dead. Plus why would want a job developing an OS anyway??
direct from dice.com:
C++ jobs --> 8158
java jobs --> 15969
and for those who think ruby is taking over the world
ruby jobs --> 297
enough said
You may want to take the few extra courses you need to get a MS in both areas. You would be taken more seriously.
Plus, many online job applications have drop down boxes to fill in your major. I can pretty much guarantee that games programming will not be on them. I found this out when I pursueed my degree in Information Assurance. By getting a dual in IA and COmputer Engineering, I was able to "fit into the box" for job applications (and got a nice job from one of them)..
Keep in mind that the skills required for gaming may also be desired for developing things like flight simulators or battlefield simulations. Don't limit you focus to entertainment-type games.
I will be starting my Master's degree at the University of Southern California this coming January. They have just started offering a Master's Degree in Computer Science with an emphasis in Game Development. All of the core classes (algorithms, computer graphics, artificial intelligence, etc.) are applicable towards either a traditional CS degree, or the more specialized Game Development CS degree. I would recommend finding something like this... you get the basic theory and knowledge of a traditional CS master's degree, with specialized attention in specific areas relating to game development.
:)
If you do not have a program like this available, take the advice of the majority of the people on here, and go for a regular CS degree, or find a job and get experience. I work for USC, so I gain experience while they pay for my education
http://gamepipe.usc.edu/ for more information.
It depends on your inventory.
An MS-CS absolutely kills an MS-Gamer if the gamer has anything less than the Shield of Work Experience.
However, an MS-Gamer ought to come out on top if he can quickly cast Shackes Of RSI.
And now for something completely different.
I'm an avid gamer. I love it, and I love making games. The industry is cruel and rarely about delivering a great experience to a player. There are few if any great places to work right now as a game developer. Of the friends I have in the industry, they almost all say they wish they'd kept games as a hobby.
My suggestion would be to go the CS route, because it's more broadly applicable (just in case you can't get the exact job you're hoping for). No development house worth their salt will deny you because you don't have "Game" in your title - they will be able to recognize your skills and passions with either degree. Just make sure you keep doing games-related stuff with your free-time.
Where I went to school CS didn't even take DiffEQ. Some skipped the last semester of Calc. None took post calc stats.
They beat set theory to death, took course work in data structures and a few more languages (fewer then I already knew as an incoming freshman).
It all depends on what school CS is taught out of. If taught out of 'Arts and Sciences' CS is a puffed up math degree. If taught out of business it's a puffed up business degree. If taught out of engineering it's a dumbed down engineering degree. YMMV
I have a generally poor impression of CS majors. Do the extra work, get the EE or CompE. There is much value in the engineering core ciricula (spelling not being part it).
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Not only because it's broader and probably more respected, but also because the game industry market can be a quite volatile one.
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
Do not get the Games degree. Stick with CS, or get a Management degree (or both if you can).
And, please, get over this "degrees are for jobs" mentality. It destroys your education. With a good CS degree you may become a researcher someday and win a place in next century's schoolbooks. With a Games degree you will just get hired to work 15 hours per day with unpaid overtime for an incompetent boss who spends his time with call girls, and you will get fired when you get sick from overwork. Learn to lead your life and understand that a Master's degree is for masters, not for slaves (employees). Become a capitalist, found your own startup and focus on becoming a free man.
A games degree wouldn't make me hire you. Work experience wouldn't, either. What matters to me is your ability and willingness to learn, your educational and academic/research background (but it's also ok for me if you managed to learn real science on your own without going to university), your general intelligence, and your leisure activities. If you watch TV in your free time, you aren't gonna being hired by me, but if you read books (I assume you already have a Safari subscription, right?), hack open-source code or write good stuff at Wikipedia, or if you participate in free community wifi networks, then this matters much more to me than work experience (and actually also more than academic background). I want to hire hackers, not employees. I do not want people who like being led, I want to get other self-starters and leaders collaborating with me (with profit sharing of course). I would prefer a hacker with 1 year's verifiable volunteering experience in Apache or FreeBSD kernel to an employee (read: slave) with 10 years of experience in a Dilbertian company (some exceptions allowed for serious innovative companies that pay for their staff's training and perform real R&D). I do not want slaves working for me, and people who destroy their education by getting vocational degrees have a slave mentality (and they are unproductive: Trained slaves aren't motivated and don't get things done). Get over this "work experience" thing: At companies you only learn some random stuff here and there to do your work as your boss wants, at universities you learn the real stuff (often without much focus on practice but it is assumed that you are smart and therefore capable of practising on your own after you learn the theory), and in the free communities (open source, open content, community wifi) you learn how to be a good citizen in addition to polishing your practical skills.
If both degrees are that close in requirements, I'd say get the CS degree and if you can afford it, take the few other courses afterwards to complete the other degree. That way you have 2 Masters degrees on your resume. :-D
DEAD DEAD DEAD DELETE ME
A Master's level education will prepare you to think critically and introduce you to research in a specific area. I'm not so certain that a Master's Degree is a more broad experience than a gaming degree. For instance, I have my Master's in Computer Vision. While at school I studied mostly computer graphics, biological vision, and pattern analysis. Outside of Computer Science, I studied statistics and linear algebra, areas that are useful in Computer Vision. Although I did have time to dabble in Software Engineering subjects that interested me, I would say that my education was mostly focused on a particular area. I saw much of the same in my peers, who studied Computer Security, Software Engineering, Networking, etc.
Although my area of study was focused, I imagine that I learned many of the same skills that Master's in other unrelated fields learn. The ability to critically analyze research, conduct research, and write research.
It has always puzzled me to an extent when I meet people who are pursuing a "general" Master's degree, with no specific area of study, and in many cases, no thesis. Is this any different then just prolonging the undergraduate experience? Also, before choosing a school, ask yourself if you will be working with researchers that are studying exactly what you are interested in. You're going to be spending a lot of time with them.
The fact the people teaching game programming are telling you that you're better then other coders and can do anything they can just proves how stupid and narrow minded they are (egos of surgeons without the skills).
In their minds any game coder could write real time control system code for just about anything. After all games work just like digital control systems. Don't bother them with control system theory, poles, half-planes etc etc. They can write difference equation code so they can do anything.
Any game coder could write database code. After all games work just like databases. Don't bother them with normal forms, query plans etc etc etc. They can write multi-player server code so they can do anything.
Morons.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
The original article has a link to the "games program" at Colorado State. This is just a proposal within the school, not an established program. In other words, it's a pre-release beta. In fact, it's not really a "games program", it's really just a list of existing courses being repackaged as a "games program"
There are some well-respected games programming degrees but this isn't one of them. Maybe in a few years.
One thing I can say, as the person who first made ragdoll physics work - if you want to work at that level, you need math. Far more math than most CS majors. Not just the ordinary math for graphics, but the math for dynamics, control, and modern AI as well. Nonlinear differential equations. Computational geometry. Linear and nonlinear control theory. Classifier systems. Bayesian statistics.
On the programming side, you need to understand things down to the bit level. You're liable to have to do something awful like make a computational algorithm work on a GPU that's all wrong for the job.
If you're not good at heavy math, you'll be shunted off into maintaining the level editor or similar low-level programming work. For which the hours and pay are both lousy. Too many low-level programmers want to get into the game industry.
It also helps to have some artistic talent. You won't be doing the real artwork, but you need to be able to sketch, just to talk intelligently to the artists.
These people got skills. Compete.
I've got my Info Sci bachelors degree. It's CS with a bunch of info theory thrown in.
Looking at graduate programs they all leave me a little cold. I could do an MBA, but I'm not that much of an asshole. I did look at an MLS, and my IS degree kind of dovetails with that. But to be honest, if the Democrats reduce the interest rates I may well go back and get my undergrad EE.
I'm not in the game industry, but if a resume ever came across my desk with a "game degree" on it, I'd almost reflexively trash it. True or not, the impression is that such "degrees" are offered by profit-motivated, crank 'em out, trade school companies. If I were in the game industry, the profile I'd be looking for is somebody with a CS degree (not necessarily a master's) who has the additional background is applicable to games. (vector algebra? assembly optimization? I don't know--you'll have to do some research to find out what skills are really required for game development, and then select coursework in your MSCS that will prepare you for it). If the candidate didn't have game development experience, I'd be looking for a freeware or OSS game that he'd written. It wouldn't have to be popular, it would just have to demonstrate skill. IMHO, when looking for people to do any type of programming, there is no better indicator of future success than the fact that they are already practicing the art. That seems rather obvious, and yet so many people don't even consider it. They just look at your degree; so get a MSCS. Don't even think about a game degree. Run really fast in the other direction. Did I mention not to get a game degree? OK, good.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
No need to go to uni to get a Masters in Counter Strike.
I'd be looking for one in another game anyway...
Games degrees are seen as jokes by a lot of people, it could be given by harvard but they arn't seen as credible sources.
There's three main benefits of CS degrees.
A. You have better classes, Development life cycles is VERY underrated by undergrads. Design documentation is underrated at all, you'll hate these classes, people in any business love it because it teaches you a lot. They love the fact that you went through the harder courses, and learned more than just game design. Think game design is just programming games? hell no. It's programming hardware, hardware that changes every 3 monthes. APIs, Networking, graphics, physics, all of these are games. The actual gameplay itself is the beginners stuff.
B. You have more flexability. Get into game design and hate it? You can get into another field very easy with your degree. Can't find a job? layoffs happening? you can get into another field. Simple.
C. Pound for pound you'll learn more, get more money to start with, and be safer for a CS degree. You'll learn more technologies which is a huge benefit (you'll be suprised how often a game company will use a variety of languages) and most of the stuff a game course will teach you, you can learn yourself when you are not in class, you can take some of those classes as electives if you want, or teach yourself.
If you want to break into the industry however your degree won't matter. It's extremely good to have but you'll want to have three things, experience, intellegence (knowledge), and desire. If you have a project in classes, don't be afraid to make a game out of it, senior classes especially (design classes too). Have a side project, make a mod, make your own game. Go after companies you want to work for. Know gaming (doesn't mean you have to pay a lot, but know the differences between a ps3 and a 360, Why is a wii different? Is a PS3 the same as a 360, why? and Why not? Don't worry if you don't know it all, don't worry about making opinions, people in the industry have differing opinions and disagree, but knowing information is great.
The most important thing is desire though, if you go after a company know what games they make, their genre (don't worry if you're wrong, if they were in that genre in the past, if you've played the games and can see where they are and who they are they will enjoy that. Don't tell them the game sucked (even though they might think so) but if you know of places for improvements meantioning it won't get your head ripped off if you're kind. Actively apply to places, not just on monster but everywhere, be enthusastic, make sure they realize you want to work for them (not as a stepping stone, not as "I need a job" But "I want to be a game programmer") I can't tell you how many times a manager at my company has said "It sounded like he really didn't want to work here". A desire or a drive to join a company will be an easy deciding factor in your favor and it doesn't take much, just don't go over board (dressing in costume is frowned on, but liking the company is always good).
The degree will be one step on a path to get in the industry to a good company, which degree you take is up to you, but for safety reason the CS is better. The Game developer isn't a "we won't take you", I work with one guy from digipen and one guy from fullsail. However you NEED drive if you're going to be picked with it. If there's one thing they want to see is that you can push yourself to the next level.
CS or Game programming? are you F'n serious?
CS is usable in far more places, it is far more respected in the industry(important for career), and it is a deeper understanding of what happens in the box.
OTOH, maybe you want to be working 100 hours a week, for little pay, and crappy workking conditions, go for the Game programming 'Degree'.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I have worked in video and computer games for in fact 20 years and must agree with the above. The "game" degrees are less valuable than CS degrees. You're going to get a programming test anyway at any place worth their salt, so mastering programming is the important thing.
My suspicion is that the game degrees go light on the programming in favor of fairly useless courses on theory in which the professors are probably not from our industry and are probably not employable.
Having a game degree never meant anything to me when reviewing a candidate. Now, an exception is a game *demo* that might have been made as part of the degree course - but then it's always hard because those are made by multiple people and I can never tell who did what. Everyone will lie and claim they did 75% of the work. So, a self-made demo - that's what's best to show.
So if MIT or Carnegie Mellon offered a BS / MS in Computer Game Design and Programming, would you all still think the same way? I'm just curious because it seems like a lot of the answers offered seem to be harsh to the point of negative. Isn't the field still evolving? Perhaps some people don't want to do CS, plus who is to say an individual who studied Computer Game Design and Programming, couldn't do CS work? Working towards and finishing a degree demonstrates a certain level of determination and / or skill.
Shunning a person because its not 'traditional' doesn't mean they can't do the job.
Regards,
MBC1977,
Stay the hell away from the games business all it will do is bring you tears. Get a CS degree. If you then want to hang about and learn about games programing go ahead. But I'll tell you this the games business is a slave ship business. From the poor abused testers to the poor abused programmers there's little fun, little pay and a whole lot of mind numbing work.
It appears to me that most of you missed the point of what the that the poster was asking about. He was asking about OUTSIDE the game industry. The fact of the matter is, Game Programming has many applications outside the video game industry. There is a whole group of problems called Serious Games, which use things like AI development and graphics which have been perfected in video games to model real world situations.
I work with Scientists who specialize in visualization. Thus far, I haven't seen a real interest in people with that kind of specialization, but I'd imagine a MS in Game Programming is a fairly recent development. I do know that being able to apply game theories is an emerging area, but seems to sit mostly on the fringes of vis technologies. Part of the problem, I think, is that Serious Games has had a pretty high "cool" factor with geeks, but it's a little hard to get funding agencies to take anything with "game" in the name seriously. Until we can get past that, I'd suggest the more "general" (relatively) computer science degree.
IANAL... But I play one on
if you want to make games, start your own company.
My many many years in the corporate grind have taught me that I would rather my children start there own business then go to college.
If they where dedicated to what they were doing I would gladly support them. I would suggest the go to college part time, because there is a lot of great contacts.
Not that college is bad, but if you know what you want to do, think about the pros and cons.
If they weren't sure what they wanted to do, then I would want them to college.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Do a double Masters Degree, in CS and Gamedeveloper. If the studies are so similar, it will not be that difficult to achieve both.
Don't think much about. Do them both.
Kinda.
If you are some serious kind of hot shit, and already have at least some connection to one or more development houses (you have interned, gametested, something ...) then you might consider game development a serious career possibility. Otherwise, assuming that you can get into game development with a specialized degree is like assuming you can become an NBA basketball player by playing college b-ball. The jobs aren't out there, and the competition for the jobs that do exist is often from young people who are very focused, don't have lives outside work, and are very motivated because there's nothing else they're good enough at to do for a living.
I'd suggest you get a plain old CS degree and make sure you have done some coursework or project(s) that gives you some special hardcore experience - AI, physics/engineering simulation, GPU programming, 3D audio, driver hacking, something like that, and you need extreme and demonstrated proficiency in C and C++. Knowing some OpenGL or assembler or network programming won't do it though.
I know a few game programmers. All of them say it's a feast-or-famine industry. One is a children's camp counselor to put food on the table between programming jobs.
It would be much better to take the more conservative degree path. This isn't the 1950's anymore, people change careers all the time. Unless you're the extremely rare exception, you're not going to be a professional game developer all your life. You could end up writing realtime embedded software for a space probe. So get the more general degree, as you have no idea what you're going to be programming ten years from now.
This is especially true for a degree like "Game and Media Integration". That may sound cool to you, but to hiring managers, that doesn't sound too impressive. You and I know that game programming requires an advanced skill set, but most people out in the real world would see it as a second rate degree.
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
If your only options are a masters in CS or some game design degree, definitely go for the Computer Science. But honestly, you would probably be better off just getting a job. You could also look into an engineering degree, like oh... Software Engineering? You will learn a lot more hands on actual programming that will help you in an interview than a bunch of theory that you are going to learn in a masters CS program. You will probably be asked to write code in an interview, and if all you know is the theory, they aren't going to be impressed with talking and pretty diagrams, they want to see that C or C++ written down on a piece of paper correctly, and they will probably ask you to explain exactly whats going on.
From having talked to some CS undergraduates, it's pretty pathetic. My recommendation is to either get a job, or go for an engineering degree.
skills and consequent bad hiring decision for the I-don't-know-how-manyeth time, I now will be looking for one thing: can this person solve their way out of a wet sack of shyt? I don't care about the degree. To determine this I have developed 2 questions: 1) give me an example of a problem you have solved recently 2) how would you approach problem X? Everything flows from those questions, no need to remember anything else.
But if you don't know what polymorphism is or can carry out a discussion scalability, maintainability, efficiency, etc (with examples, leading into baseic design considerations) then the interview will be quite short. Learn the fundamentals. CS degree with as many Math courses as possible. For math especially pick up discrete math, number theory, algebea (modern, not college), discrete dynamical systems, and anything else dealing with discrete (not continuous) concepts. These will help you flex your discrete oriented theoretical brain muscles needed be the top dog in your advanced CS related courses. While the weaker CS majors are whining about how they don't understand the difference between null and empty you'll be contributing code to an open source gaming engine (or whatever else will tickle your fancy).
That ONLY applies to submitting your resume to huge companies electronically. They'll read in your degree, usually with an AI system, and go right past it. But big companies suck anyway and networking (the ppl kind) can avoid the whole resume pool nightmare. As long as you have any experience in writing normal programs and put that on their, it will catch the attention of any human that reads it. Go to your church or something, write them a program, and put it on there and don't apply at some mega-company. But it sounds like you do want to get into gaming and they absolutely DO NOT like hiring ppl without specific gaming degrees and if they do, they probably make crap games like horrible movie tie in ones or something. If you're going to work on game engines seperate from your job and just be a regular programmer, then you'd want to take a lot of the gaming courses as electives and get the normal degree though. And in response to your other post, you'll absolutely need calculus and any geometry courses they have and I'd also suggest an advanced trigonometry (sometimes disguised as "pre-calculus") which comes in handy with physics stuff.
Google's Super Secret Search Algorithm: SELECT @search_results FROM internet WHERE @search_results = 'good'
... and not just because of the re-release of all the SW episodes this past week on cable.
Good insights on both "sides", but ultimately, I think you need to decide where your passions are, while also remembering that your degree is only one factor (sometimes a big one) in determining your career options. It's a factor that diminishes with each career move you'll make, too.
I'm definitely old school in my philosophy: follow the path that gives you the most depth in the tools you think you really want to use, but remember that they are just tools, and you'll have to figure out how to apply your knowledge to something completely different in 5/10/20 years, anyway. If you have a chance to give yourself just as good an edge for gaming companies with whatever jobs you'll have while getting the degree, I'd weigh the specific gaming degree a little less, accordingly.
Since this is a Masters program you're deliberating, pay lots of attention to the specifics of both faculty and student body composition. You're going to spend a lot of time with these people; make sure they are the right ones. (If your only objective in getting the degree is career advancement, "right ones" probably means faculty most tightly connected with your dream company/ies. But your criteria should vary with the complexity of your objectives.) Can you interview other students as well as faculty? I don't mean suit-and-tie interview; I mean have lunch or a beer (or both).
seriously, cu colorado springs? you're hosed either way. go to a real school and shut up.
Aside from the applying-to-a-game-company issues of prestige, academics, and worth-something-ness...
What if you end up hating game programming? What if the very atmosphere makes you crazy? What if you want to try something different? Given that "game programming degrees" are given questionable respect by quite a few people (see 90% of above posts) *IN* the industry, what kind of clout, let alone background, do you think it will give you in making a non-game career change? There's a lot of long hours and burnout in game programming *cough*EA*cough* and you may find it's not for you. What then?
As far as hiring goes, having friends at a game company who will actively vouch for you tends to go a heck of a lot further than degrees. That and exhibiting an attitude of "I eat, drink, sleep, and @#$% games and will be willing to work long hours at low pay for even the chance at working on the next top-selling title", which, frankly, might not last you as long as you think.
-- I prefer the term "karma escort."
I don't know why everyone is so afraid of the math - the majority of it is linear algebra, and some calc. helps to figure out the physics. Geometry helps, but isn't essential. This is not terribly advanced math, and can easily be completed in the course of a math minor.
Furthermore, doing a math minor will probably help you with your graduate coursework: I'm in the first year of a Ph. D. program in CS right now and I have far more mathematical experience than my classmates, some of whom have been in the program for several years, simply from minoring in the subject as an undergrad.
Regarding the choice of a game development vs. a CS degree, the CS degree is probably more valuable. You won't get turned down in the game industry with a CS degree, but you may get turned down outside of game development with the game dev. degree. The math minor may improve your employment prospects within the game development industry as well (because it suggests a mathematical background adequate for understanding the game-related math so many people seem to be afraid of).
A specialization in computer graphics would indicate someone who is likely to enjoy a challenge. A demonstrated success in the field would tell me that the candidate is one who can balance a wide-range of complex domains. For instance if you could show that you had mastered a design package, that would be worth a point or two. If you knew how to export models and use them in your own software, that would be worth significantly more. If you had donated a Python Module to the Blender Project, that would be worth even more. If you had written an interface to hardware that controls input or manipulation of graphics, that would be worth even more.
The more you can demonstrate a true grasp of data - not just graphic modules and gaming techniques, the more valuable you will be to the industry as a whole.
-Good luck,
CF
'nuff said.
Setting his threshold to 5, Sparky eliminated most of the trolls on /.
... and program your games for the love of it.
:-)
THEN sellout for millions.
The revolution will NOT be televised.
Ever see a web app written in C++?
Where do you think the jobs are these days? Operating systems or web apps?
"The use-mention distinction" is not "enforced here."
Here's a controversial suggestion: computing is a dead-end field.
Not today, not tomorrow, and maybe not for a decade or even two, but I honestly think that computing as a career will drop to the same level as janitor.
First, computers will become more-or-less self-administering, eliminating one sector.
Later, code will become too complex to write for people (already people can only write small subsets of a program), so computers will take over generating code. Exuent programmers.
Creative expression requires unknowns to be useful. As ideas are created and discarded, we will get to a standard way of making things, which will leave computer creativity to the font of all other branches--with the artist.
Computing as a creative technical field is going to die, and probably by the middle of your career, if not sooner.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
Why?
Cause you're more for application development--taking someone else's idea and technical architecture and coding it. That's it. Sure you'll get a pretty high salary cause you know the latest tools, texture mapping techniques, and the latest game engines, and some problem solving, but it's a short term environment. A game degree is a vocational-like degree, period, it's application. If you like it, then be my guess, you will enjoy it as I see many here do.
With a traditional degree, you'll have the knowledge to think out of the box, expand the current technology in new ways, etc... Instead of learning a craft, you're learning principles and need to figure out how to apply them. And even think of some new principles. I see a lot of CS's (including myself as a Physics guy) struggle on some of the 3D stuff that the business folks are asking for, where the gamers pick it up more quickly. But I see the CS (and myself) finding new ways to do things and solve problems a lot fast than the gamer degree folks.
Now if you're just trying to catch the latest fad (gaming), then a game degree makes sense.
But once those CS's figure out a UML-like tool and workbench that makes games easy to build by non-technical users--they'll move on to the next cool thing (AI in medicine for example), while you'll be stuck with just a gaming degree.
Games are complex but a cake walk next to running the worlds power grid (for example).
The complexity of stored procedures is related to the complexity of the problem being solved. If, for example, the stored procedure needs to work out both contractual and actual losses on a power transmission deal that spans multiple links that stored procedure will be hellishly complicated initially. After a few years of being kept up with real world lawyering and some staff turnover they become very difficult to maintain under the best of conditions. If traders need this data as current as possible and the data behind it is coming out a fire hose you've got a challenge.
Stored procedures are also only part of a larger problem.
Imagine real time control system of a large chaotic system with many with a many very large databases of real time data all feeding/reading from control systems that run parts of the system. Add in Machiavellian trickery by all players and regulators playing whack-a-mole, imposing rule changes that code must keep up with.
Now imagine that if the code fucks up power can go out, or at best your employer loses lots of money. Now you've got yourself a real problem that will put hair on your chest.
Having said that, I'm not arrogant enough to think the power grid is any harder to run then lots of other things. NYSE for example? Chicago Board of Trade? The 787? They all run real time control. They manage gobs of data that stress the bandwidth of server clusters (barring the 787 which can kill people and still manages small gobs of data).
I can't speak to networking code. But MacOS8 was truly a piece of shit. That was still the emulated 68K stack wasn't it?
As to the physics engine. Imagine having to correct to real world data every tick. There's only one physics engine that matters, and it cares nothing of your approximations.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Might be a temp thing for you. Why not use your talent for something more enduring? Heck I'm asking the same thing of myself.
Get up!
I've been looking at this program.. I believe it's a Bachelor of Computer Science with a focus towards game programming. Would that be a good bet if I wanted to go into game development? http://www.scs.carleton.ca/school/streams/index.ph p?streams=game_0002
I was only 28,931 registrations away from having a 6-digit UID
Study Law or Accountancy these skills are truely what shape the games industry.
threadeds blog
Please keep in mind that when you eventually get that game job, you'll probably burn out before you hit 40. 80 hour weeks will do that. Of the people I know in that line of work, they are almost always paid less than their peers in other software jobs. Couple that with the egregious use of overtime, and your effective hourly rate may be *half* of your college roommate's (who got the "boring" job). Plus, he will have time for a girlfriend and a few weeks vacation every year.
I am sure many people are giving you advice on which classes to take; however, it's more than just classes. Get yourself some kind of real job to talk about. If that isn't possible, and you find yourself working retail, do a huge project. Research and development. Create a portfolio to talk about at interviews. If you were a communications major who had written a 3d first person shooter video game, your degree would mean nothing. You would be hired on the spot. It's all about your portfolio!
I got into game development in 1995, a little over a year after I graduated from my university with a degree in COBOL and mainframe development. The company that hired me developed in C++, of which I didn't even have enough knowledge of to even carry a 5 minute conversation about, much less develop useful code for the company.
What I *did* have was a demonstrated passion for wanting to work in the gaming industry. I had spent several months prior doing nothing but programming in C after work learning basic game development concepts (at that time it was VGA DOS programming in mode 13h, mode X) from books such as LaMothe's "Tricks of the Game Programming Gurus".
I practically had to beg the recruiter to even turn my name in. When I showed up for my interview, I had created a little game demo. I was later told it was my passion and demo that really got me the job; they felt I could easily learn the technical skills along the way to do my job.
Over the years, I realize how true this is; I've personally hired a few candidates who had very little programming experience but a huge demonstrated passion for wanting to do the job and they've almost always turned out to be really great developers. People passionate about what they are doing can be trained new skills.
Runesabre
Enspira Online
As others have said, the games degrees are a bit of a joke overall and having it, even if it was a good curriculum will hurt you.
But another bit of advice... working in gaming is not at all what you might think. Its about as close to professional migrant work as one will find, meaning that the majority of companies hire for their game, then send you packing after it ships or if the money runs out before it ships. There are a few places to find solid work, but they're generally not looking for college grads. Most people don't want to keep moving every 3 or 4 years to find new work. With a general CS degree, you can work anywhere and find a career with one company if you so choose.
And yes, I've worked in the games industry for a decade and now work outside of it and find that I'm being paid a lot more money today and don't have to move. If I want to write games, I still can, but I don't want to work at it for peanuts anymore.
Every so often I see a story on slashdot about what degree to go after. Usually they are asking for some trick or some inside knowledge to give them a leg up. Like what programming language to choose (Roll your own make a hybrid between Ruby and Java that'll run on Amigas. It'll be the next killer machine/app). If you really want to know the value of a masters or doctorate you should study very carefully Philip Greenspuns Career Guide for Engineers and Computer Scientists. Unless you are very good the average lifespan of a programmer is about 10 years and age discrimination starts very young like around 36.
I think you would be better off learning the following phrases "Clean up on aisle seven" or "Would you like fries with that?" or "Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out."
"You'll get nothing, and you'll like it!"
no one cares about a plain old CS degree except bitter old dudes. these days what you need is a CS:S degree...
in this age of communication i'm just not getting through
It raises an interesting question. I have a job, doing some web development and admining. I didn't finish so much as my first year of college.
If I were to, in my vast amounts of free time, create a nice-looking portfolio, demo, or open source game, would my resume also be reflexively tossed in the trash?
I guess what I'm asking is, should I go back to school, or should I keep working and hacking around in my spare time? (I have more spare time now than I did in school.)
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
For a Bachelors degree in CS or Engineering, would you recommend a BS or a BA?
Seriously.
Everyone on Slashdot has their own opinion but you will be the one doing the studying. Do whichever one you are interested in. There is no point in studying something you hate and there is a lot to be said for taking classes on subjects you are really enjoy.
Im a graduate from Full Sail.
I would say to go get the Master's Degree. Simply because there is a lot of ignorant bias out-there about what it means to have a 'Game' degree. There are various reasons of course (and blame goes both ways). But it comes down to the fact that a 'game' degree is being portrayed as a 'fad'. As I remember when I was in full sail (and the person currently at this school will probably agree) for each good, talented person in that school, there are 20 fools that are just there for the glamour and self importance of a 'Game' degree...(Talk about a 'big chill' scenario if there is one)
These are the kids that apply to companies and give the rest of us a bad name because they think their crappy game that crashed once or twice is worth it in the industry. I honestly think that my degree was worth it in my case because I am continuing my education via research and development and complementing with CS and MS degrees while others... well, go become salary men. acquaintances of mine call me one or twice and complain to me about still being at the bottom at the food chain at their big triple A companies they work at.
Mostly it is because they know how to fix problems but do not know how to think up better ways on how to avoid getting into trouble to begin with.
I must say, I have been laughed at by the CS people when they take my degree at face value. But after a few days showing them my work and current research they stop doing it. Some even apologize.
To help getting your feet in the ground; in retrospect, I would basically fall back on the sciences. Right now the game degrees are being corrupted by the 'fad' and practical mentalities of a trade school. But just remember: almost more than a century ago, the status quo laughed at quantum mechanics as a serious field of study.
good luck to you.
A degree won't get you a job, regardless of what it is in. What matters it getting the interview, and yes, a Master's degree will help you get an interview. Though, an MS in CS or an MS in GD will be roughly equivalent in the eyes of people reading resumes. And then, once you are in the interview the subject of the degree means nothing, nada, zilch. What matters is being smart, being passionate about games, having good communication skills and demonstrating that you are strongly motivated to get hard stuff done. A great way to demonstrate your passion and that you get hard stuff done is
1. To have done a bunch of job-relevant projects outside of your education, and
2. To have job relevant experience, whether somebody paid you for it or not.
To give you the answer you really wanted: Go for the CS degree and do a bunch of independent game development projects.
I conduct regular technical interviews for a large game company, so I can't comment on the value of such a degree outside of the industry. However, I can tell you that whether you take a standard CS course or a games oriented one, it really won't make very much difference to whether you get a job inside the industry.
If the course you are looking at is affiliated with an actual games company (one that's actually put products on shelves before) then perhaps the situation is slightly different, but I doubt it.
The reason for this is that a degree, no matter how relevant or prestigious can only help you to get into a technical interview. Once you're in the interview it really won't matter at all, what will matter is whether you can demonstrate sufficient technical ability to do the job and in my experience this is not something that people get directly from their degrees.
The strongest candidates are the ones that have degrees (mainly to get past the recruitment teams' basic filtering, and to learn some 'soft skills') and have learned to program by themselves outside of that context. I do not believe that any degree will teach you how to program to the level required of a professional game developer by itself. Remember, if you get the job you'll be programming for upwards of 60 hours a week at times, if you don't love programming enough to have become very good (which can only be done with at least some contribution of free time) then your career will be short lived.
Well over half the candidates that I reject get turned down simply because despite their degrees they simply aren't good enough at programming to be employed in the industry.
So, whether you have a degree or not and whether you intend to get one or not, if you want to get into the games industry as a programmer, then you need to get very good at programming (because the other candidates are).
In case no one else has mentioned it in this thread (which I doubt), almost all games' programming is done in C/C++ or something lower level (i.e. assembler), so make sure that's what you teach yourself.
Personally, unless the course has some kind of real industry link (which is very, very rare) then I would go for the standard course, because it won't limit your options in fields outside of games, but the 'games' course isn't really going to give you any advantage in the games field itself.
> java jobs --> 15969
If you want a job in a coffee shop, by all means, learn java.
> ruby jobs --> 297
There aren't that many open positions as jewelers out there.
But if you want to be a programmer, learn programming fundamentals. Don't just learn a language. It will soon be replaced by the next buzz word language sold to the pointy heads anyway.
> Ever see a web app written in C++?
How about Google.
http://rareformnewmedia.com/
Go to a better school. Can't you get into CU Boulder?
Also, go with the CS degree. A gaming degree pigeonholes you and won't serve you well if you want to work outside the industry. The practical difference between the two degrees probably won't be more than a few classes, some of which I'm sure you can take as electives anyway.
"Too often people think working on video games is all fun. It stopped being fun for me after the first six weeks and I worked in the industry for six years."
The same could be said for programming and I don't see a lacking of advice to go into CS. Of course it isn't all fun. That's why it's called a job, not playtime.
I'm personally going for the Master's in CS. I also don't even LOOK at what degrees people have when I consider them for a project. One of my best developers is bombing out of college right now, and he's my right-hand guy. He probably always will be, because he's that damn bloody good.
(warning: shameless plug) Have you looked at Carnegie Mellon University's Entertainment Technology Masters program? I am about to graduate with my class in May, and many of us already have jobs already lined up. The program has a good relationship with majors companies such as EA, Activision, Sony, and Disney for internships. Plus, you get to take graduate level electives from other departments (e.g. Computer Science, Design, Engineering, and Drama). All classwork is done in teams, and many projects work with industry clients. After graduation, you have a large network of hundreds of previous graduates from the program that can help you throughout your career. Lastly, if you don't like the cold, you can always study on a beach in Australia. Here is the link: http://www.etc.cmu.edu/ Hope that helps!
A Masters in "Game Programming" is almost the equivalent of a Bachelors in Basket Weaving...Mostly useless to almost every employer around. That said, so is a computer science degree. If you had gotten a degree in CS back before say 1998, it may have actually meant something, but now a days, it is all theory, and that theory does not apply directly when you go to get your first job. Believe me when I say, you would be better off doing math, or something more targeted at an applicable science.
"My immediate reaction is "WTF? What kind of moron doesn't make things 64-bit safe to begin with?" Linus
You turn out as a "jack of all trades, master of none." This renders the Computer Engineering degree somewhat worthless
I couldn't disagree more. I have a jack of all trades degree, Theoretical and Applied Mechanics... Do one good internship during your undergrad, and you will be able to get a good job. Once you are at the good job, you will be very valuable because you will be surrounded by specialists who don't even know how to comunicate outside of their specialty. You will be the glue that binds everyone together.
Also you will be able to very quickly learn new things to the point of proficiency. I have been out of school for 6 years, and I have worked in aerospace R&D, aerospace design, civil structures, and supercomputing applications.
The skill you need to develop is a jack of all trades is the ability to see commonalities between appearantly different tasks (there is a lot more out there that is similar to other things than most people recognize). Once you realize that one task is very similar to another one you have already done, it becomes very easy...
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
What if you can't get a job in the games industry?
With a CS degree you can get a wide variety of jobs, including jobs in the game industry. Not so with the games degree. You'd be a one-trick pony.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
I find GMI as the name of a curriculum confusing. GMI still makes me think of the school now known as Kettering University, but maybe I'm just an anachronism.
-Rich
We don't worry too much about degrees (BA or better in some program) --- we do worry about "WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?"
So you are worrying about chosing between two things that don't matter.
I wrote a number of them circa 1995...
I know a lead modder of the Star Wars Movie Battles mod. He is 22 and better at game stuff than most of us could ever be. All he'd need is a CS, since he rocks at project management (naturally) and sucks at programming.
Dealing with the game industry tools you can teach yourself. Since the piplelines change twice a year that's a good idea anyway. A regular 'boring' CS teaches you the basics. What the heck is a Game Design degree anyway? We have these here in germany aswell. Sound mostly like snake oil to me.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
Thought you'd be interested to know... I'm a high school student in Colorado Springs, and this guy came to my school to do a presentation on the brand new Game Programming course that he was heading up. Apparently it started off as some extra courses on game programming that CS students were taking, and he wanted to make it a full fledged degree program.
I can't say I was impressed.
I don't know why, but most of the presentation was on how anyone can do it, and proceeded to show us some, well... lets just say interesting side-scrollers created with Game Maker created as final projects. I was kind of disapointed. He's a nice guy (got a lazy eye, kind of annoying), but I don't think that he will be teaching a lot that you can actually use.
On the other hand, a friend of mine is also getting a CS degree at UCCS, and he's just having a blast. He's in his senior year when they get to choose their own projects, and among his class projects being created include some pretty awesome projects with AI and 3D graphics. A few projects that people in his major have worked on... Writing a ray tracer, and creating a vairable unit chess AI (say 3 queens vs 16 pawns), and a music choice suggester (with the database being updated through torrents).
Opposing that with learning the ins and outs of Game Maker, I'd say go with the CS degree.
As for the choice of CS degrees: Get a BS in CS. If you ever leave or even fail to get in to the games industry, you will be best off with that. When I worked as a database programmer, they would have shied away from anybody with a games degree in favor of a simple CS degree.
However, you should go for the MS degree in whatever field you find most interesting. If they have that in the games degree, then get it there. If they have it in the CS degree, get it there. If they have it in the physics department, get it there.
Once you are actually working for a company, nobody really cares what you got your degree in, the only care that you can do the work presented to you, and do it well.
//TODO: Think of witty sig statement
In contrast, a CS degree is still a CS degree: it has value inside and outside the gaming industry. So you should hedge your bet here on the side of the CS degree.
If you don't understand what I'm saying here, which is a simple analysis of risk, then you certainly should not take the gaming degree.
I'm OT i know... just wanted to know if you have any good book to suggest me about game programming... i am not really interested in something in particular, anything is good... it is for my personal knowledge only.
Thank you.
"I wanna kode a gr8 game idea I had" go straight into the trash.
Film appreciation programs should require people to be more erudite in writing than just writing "I wanna kode a gr8 game idea I had" or other any other geek, hacker, or cracker speech. Of the classes that required a lot of writing I took in college, the theatre classes were probably the hardest I took, unfortunately that was a long tyme ago and I don't write as well as I used to write. Oh and yes though my major was Computer Engineering back then, I didn't limit myself to just engineering and science classes.
FalconShould there be a Law?
My school ^ has both Computer Science and Computer Engineering as part of the "Institute of Technology" (engineering departments). As you've described, Computer Engineering heavily emphasizes assembler and hardware design. Indeed, the Computer Engineering program covers nearly the entire introductory Electrical Engineering program and has shifts emphasis Computer Science courses in the latter half of the degree. Computer Science covers programming in its introductory phase and shifts more towards mathematics in its later phases.
How well is UM Twin Cities, if you know, in CE, EE, and IT? Well you answer that about CE, so how are the EE and IT programs there? I'm hoping to start there next year, though with a multidisciplenary degree using one of these as a basis.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Let's see, we have a bandwagon of pundits on this thread trashing a graduate program they know nothing about because they didnt even RTFL.
So let me post a few interesting portions that I found after reading it:
Applicants for graduate study in Games and Media Integration must hold a B.S., B.A., or B.F.A. degree and have considerable computing experience and show promise of ability to pursue advanced study and research. Entering students must have the equivalent of the following UCCS courses:
(i) CS145 (Data Structure and Algorithms)
(ii) CS306 (OO Programming with C) or CS302 (C#)
(iii) MATH 215 (Discrete Mathematics)
(iv) MATH 313 (Introduction to Linear Algebra)
Oh yeah, they are looking for to award diploma-mill "game" degrees to high school dropouts at THIS program -- no doubt!!! I mean, every dumbass who loves games has taking Linear Algebra! It must be a scam!
Moving on...
Required Courses (9 credit hours)
(a) CS 580 Introduction to Computer Graphics (or equivalent) 3 credit hours
(b) CS572 Design Analysis of Algorithms (or equivalent) 3 credit hours
(c) CS 578 3D Games and Digital Content Creation (or equivalent) 3 credit hours
List of Elective Courses:
(i) CS 577 Animation and Visualization
(ii) CS 677 Virtual Reality and Human Computer Interaction
(iii) CS 571 Evolutionary Computation
(iv) CS575: Computational Geometry
(v) CS581 Advanced Computer Graphics/Morphing [snip] Listen: for the 1/2 of you know-it-alls who think that this persons question is about some mail-away degree program in "game studies" - get a fucking clue and read the fucking question. He's asking about a specialized master's program at a well-known engineering school. So stop generalizing your pompous and misinformed notions about what this "game" degree is all about. And you know what else? Not everyone who contributes technically to games needs to write hardcore C code. Shaders? MEL scripts? There are MANY roles for technical people who can read and write code but also have an idea of what looks good and is fun.
Believe it or not all you "I've worked in games for 15 years" blowhards: the field has matured during your tenure for people to specialize in the area, just as they would specialize in artificial intelligence, networks, information systems or ANYTHING else. It's no longer the hacky domain of 4 man teams making DOOM - there are more than enough well-defined problems to learn from, both domain specific to real-time 3d graphics and simulation and generally appealing to sharp technical minds who might otherwise waste 2 years learning about something godawfully tedious like databases. So do a little reading and find out what these programs offer before you assume they are all like the ones in the commerical on YouTube.
It's not about "shunning" someone as if they were stigmatized for something they couldn't control (race, gender, etc), but it is about choosing someone who has demonstrated abilities that work in your company. It's about choosing someone that had the foresight to go to a "real" university and get well rounded academic knowledge.
If you can read this... 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100001 00100000 01100111 01100101 01100101 01101011
Everbody who defends those degrees here either has one, or is close to getting one.
Well, lets hope there is not too much wishfull thinking and denial behind it.
HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
Reinventing the wheel is always very entertaining. I wonder about how useful it is, but lots of fun for sure.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
The games industry need people who can paint dazling backgrounds and tell interesting stories with interesting characters. I cant count houw many demo reels I've seen that demonstrate technical competance, but are as dull as hell.
- never stick to one practice, language or development style.
- never think you are going to be in the same programming job forever. you will eventually leave coding one day and get into architecture.
- do not specialize in one thing. you will get burned 5 years down the road
For your situations honestly, stick with CS. you will learn more overall and when you are tired of the gaming industry you can then leave it behind you as a memory and something you enjoy on the weekends.
Also, if you are hard up for cash and want to make money faster, do not get into the game industry. These are a few hard facts.
If I were hiring people for visualization work, I'd probably hire...an art major with concentrations and experience in computer graphics.
Getting a Games degree instead of a CS degree is sorta like getting, say, a Masters in Medieval European History instead of the more general Masters in History. Yes, it shows you have a specific interest, but so would activities outside of school like internships and part-time positions where your interest was the focus, and it wouldn't limit you so much on paper.
Of course, I don't even specify what my degree is in on my resume, just that I have it. So take that with a grain of salt.
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