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Flying To the US? Pay In Cash
pin_gween writes to point us to a report in the Telegraph that British travelers using a credit card to purchase their ticket may now have their credit card and email accounts inspected by US authorities. This has been true since October, when the US and the EU agreed about what information the US could demand from airlines and how this information would be handled. But details of the agreement only recently came to light following a Freedom of Information request. The US says it will "encourage" US carriers to reciprocate to any requests by European governments. From the article: "[T]he Americans are entitled to 34 separate pieces of Passenger Name Record (PNR) data... Initially, such material could be inspected for seven days but a reduced number of US officials could view it for three and a half years. Should any record be inspected during this period, the file could remain open for eight years...'It is pretty horrendous, particularly when you couple it with our one-sided extradition arrangements with the US,' said [a human rights activist]. 'It is making the act of buying a ticket a gateway to a host of personal email and financial information. While there are safeguards, it appears you would have to go to a US court to assert your rights.'"
Just dont go to the US. Screw them and their 'information' requirements.
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
Sorry .. cash is not acceptable payment.
Heard any good sigs lately?
Some airlines only allow you to do Online Check-in by confirming your identity with your credit card number.
Some express-check-in's require you to either insert your credit card to get your boarding pass printed (or your frequent flyer card).
If I want better fares by booking online I will have to use a credit card too, not seen any airlines accept Paypal etc...
In short it seems that to take advantage of any fast-track system that saves on man-power and hassle for both the customer or airline I now have to give up my life's credit history.
Glum.
Guess I'll be the lone dissenting view, here...
Nothing is going to be "inspected" by US authorities, and if anything is "inspected", it's not at-will and not arbitrary.
This is an agreement for mutual legal assistance, and is a framework for submitting legal requests and subpoenas for information about an individual via established legal channels, as well as guidelines information to which US authorities are entitled from EU air carriers.
No one automatically has access to bank records or email accounts; a legal request must still be made to a bank or internet provider. This is a framework for making such requests to EU entities by the US.
Things like email address and forms of payment are part of the almost-two-decade-old Automated Targeting System (ATS), which uses metrics to attempt to determine in an automated fashion when an individual warrants further scrutiny. This is part of larger ongoing efforts to secure the information assessed by ATS.
If an email address is available, it is part of that set of information, among numerous other pieces of information. If something triggers an additional investigation, a legal request could, for example, be made to an internet service provider for the contents of an email account. Note that this is a court-ordered action, and not unlike a similar request that could be made by US authorities to a US company or entity; the difference, again, is that there is now a mechanism for the US uniformly making and EU entities responding to such requests.
Instead of paying cash, fly to Canada or Mexico and then take a ground route into the US...
Whatever we do over the next two years- just ignore it. This is not America.
I would like to apologise on behalf of our idiotic politicians. Remember not all of us are Dubya-worshipping sheep, and that many of us think that American foreign policy is every bit as stupid as you think it is. Perhaps instead of visiting America and spending your tourist dollars here, you might decide to visit South America or Asia first, or perhaps Canada, and when you do write letters to politicians at the Federal and local levels here explaining that you really wanted to visit America, but cannot in good conscience spend your vacation dollars on a nation which is going backwards rather than forwards where civil and privacy rights are concerned, and you might want to voice your opinion on American-made goods as well. Dollars speak louder than anything else.
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
Paying in cash is a sure way to single yourself out for inspection. Few people pay with large sums of cash these days, and for good reason.
Looks as though the EU will have similar access on US citizens. The entire world is descending into fascist utopia created by government think tanks and multinationals.
Paying with cash is a sure way to attract more attention to yourself, not less. Don't be silly, government is not after you.
Additionally, most credit cards provide with additional lost luggage and life insurance when you use them to buy your ticket.
This is all just using 'fear' of some kind of external agent so that we need to get the goods on everybody to make the 'fear' go away.
The fear has been artificially inflated to the point where ordinary well thinking humans are now giving up their rights with a smile on their face.
I'll resist this trend to the bitter end for a simple reason. 1000's of people die each year in car accidents. Yet no such privacy invasion has been justified to alleviate the risk of bad drivers (arguably a lot bigger risk to society than the few terrorists out there).
Until these measures are applied equally to all 'dangerous' activities which on a yearly basis get many orders of magnitudes of people in an early grave you can have my data over my dead body.
jacquesm posting as ac because I can't remember my login and I'm too lazy right now do
do a retrieval...
happy new year to all you slashdotters
I try hard not to travel to countries such as North Korea and USA where there is a basic assumption that I am a criminal and not to be trusted.
When your up to no good you should be paying with cash.
I could be wrong ...
But I thought the standard logic in Police States (we can argue whether the US is a Police state another time) was that if you were unwilling to lose your privacy you must have something to hide. Hypothetically speaking, if you (heaven forbid) were a minority which could perhaps be from a Terrorism supporting country and you payed by cash wouldn't that ensure that you got the long trip through security?
You tend to end up as the subject of a money laundering investigation. (He says having just been given £800 cash which he's somehow got to get into a bank account.)
Having said which, I solve the original problem by simply choosing not to visit the USA. It's too much hassle, and there's plenty of other bits of world to go to.
Isn't the UK the nation that has video cameras monitoring the streets? Given it's pervasive CCTV surveillance of citizens, this news would seem like a breath of fresh enlightenment.
p.s. For all you knuckleheads out there, I am not agreeing with this move! I'm only commenting on the irony of the UK bitching about it.
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
This is just one of the many things the USA does to violate your privacy. There are many top secret areas too. If you find checking emails and such appalling, just imagine what is never disclosed. Pity that they do this to their own citizens, and there is hardly anyone balking at this. Power grants you many things. All you have to do is make up a valid excuse and people will fall for it. Fools are plentiful in the USA, or their are plenty of blind eyes. The thing is none of them will balk about privacy issues until it happens to them. Then it's too late.
Isn't paying in cash and flying one-way into the United States supposed to be a red flag? They're sure are taking the fun out of being a tourist pretending to be a terrorist pretending to be a tourist.
People have to acknowledge that (1) transportation has proven to be the real Achilles's Heel of modern society, and (2) no one is forcing you to travel to the US.
Now some of the government responses, both US and UK, have been very onerous. (Connected through Heathrow lately???)
I for one will not let the threat of terrorism stop me from travelling. And if I'm travelling internationally, I fully expect that in exchange for entry to another country, I'll have to forgoe privacy, etc. It's part of the trade for living in the modern world.
How many people who don't like these kinds of broad-band searches think that targeting/profiling is more acceptable?
dave
If someone pays in cash for a ticket EVERYBODY (the travel agent, the regular as well as the secret police, etc) gets suspcious.
Spending $1000+ in cash in a single payment is the best way to draw attention on yourself. In a few minutes after the payment you are on various black lists (kept by the governments, travel agents, flight companies, etc,etc)
we have CCTV in public places - this is based upon the obviously warped logic, that if you do something in a public place, then you shouldn't expect it to be private.
In some places CCTV is going a bit far, but there are numerous occasions where it is a definite benefit. If you're wating for a taxi, withdrawing money from an ATM or merely just walking home alone late at night - then you're safer if there's a CCTV camera covering you and the possibility somebody's watching.
In fact the more I think about this, the more ridiculous your point sounds - do you object to the police patrolling in public places?
Freedom of Information request
:)
Yup, i.e. you have to give them any information they request, for free, and congratulate them in the process.
This payed-with-credit-card trouble is pretty wierd, sometimes you can read they think it's suspicious if someone is paying with cash, and sometimes that it's suspicious if someone pays with a card. And I guess if we'd ask which payment method is less suspicious, that would be the most suspicious.
It's a wierd world. You'd go to some friends, family, a conference, for business issues, etc. to find out years later that your mailing has been monitored for years because you dared to pay your hardly earned money for a flight ? An let's say you send some really suspicious letter a few years later, then they can finally jump and sing see-we-knew-it
These guys come up with more and more transparent "reasons" to monitor everybody, slowly but surely.
I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
I am not much of a flyer, but would it possible to fly to, say, a city bordering the U.S. in Canada or Mexico or an island, and then take a bus/train/small plane in? I guess it'd depend on your destination... if you're going to the middle of the continent, it would be too inconvenient. Sounds strange, but how would a potential terrorist do it? Seems terrorists and people who want to fiercely guard their privacy have overlapping interests in this case. :-/
If you're that worried, just spend it as is and the money never existed. Gradually spend the money on stuff like food and simply reduce your other expenditures.
BTW, is the UK really that paranoid? I've got cash payments in excess of $1000 from business clients before and deposited them in the bank. As well as a graduation gift after college. I haven't jbeen audited, jailed, stalked, or shot yet :) This is in the US, though.
-b.
sounds like they are trying to be informed about 'bob the nutcase who wants to kill you becuase you are different' before he hits the u.s. soil.
always mosh clockwise
doesn't look suspicious at all
It is extremely funny to have Europeans, especially Brits, complaining about this. Privacy rights are in a much, much worse shape in Europe. This is just another Bush Bad, Bush Bad, Bush Bad exercise.
The first time I tried to enter the US was in 1975. I was on my holidays after graduating from Uni in the UK. As a present, my parents had given me a return ticket to Toronto and a 2 week Greyhound Bus Pass. I stayed with some friends in Toronto for a few days and then headed off.
I got to Vancouver and then headed south. At the border I was asked how much cash I had and then they wanted to see my return ticket. Opps..... I had left it in Toronto for safe keeping. AFter all, my logic went, if I got robbed all I had to do was get back to Toronto and then I could fly home.
Nope. The ruthlessly efficient border guard was about to stamp by Passport "Entry Refused" when I produced my newly acquired Barclaycard(visa). He saw that and immediatlely assumed that I could afford to fly home.
Back on the subject of now. So what happens when you turn up at the airport and the check your Credit card and find that there is no record of you paying for your ticket in its history. This is very common for business travellers. Are the US Poleitzei going to stop someone from entering their precious country just because they can't find a record of the ticket purchase on the credit card produced by the poor sod trying to fly to the USA? Somehow, I doubt it.
So, for me the real reason is that they can then get the flyers credit history from the likes of Experion. Then ONLY the really credit worthy who are guaranteed to spend lots of $$$$$$ during their visit.
Just my 0.01p worth.
Why would anyone be interested in your credit card purchases for your pony-tailed ass-rape collection? What the EU lacks viz-a-viz the US is far worse: a free press. When truth is not a defense in a libel suit, you simply do not have a free press. What the EU has is a docile press-release duplication service. In the US has, aside from McCain-Feingold anyway, is the legal right to publish any criticism of our public officials, provided it is based on fact. Given that with a free press we can organize ourselves to oppose any true abuse, we can safely ignore sharing of our purchase history. Why I would get upset over shared credit card data that is already being mined by the credit card companies themselves is beyond me.
You are not allowed to accept cash payments of more than 15,000 Euros without doing lots of ID checks and registering them with the appropriate authorities - HM Revenue and Customs in the case of the UK.
the solution is e-gold, when will be airlines accepting e-gold as payment??? and how about a prepaid credit card ?
I recently traveled over the holidays and had to deal with tight security but I think these are great ideas. That is the price that people come into the US because of what happened with 9.11.
http://www.mobile-ringbacks.info/
http://www.american-idol-show.info/
Dollars speak louder than anything else.
No they don't. Votes do. And more specifically, votes in the middle of the country.
Whoever brings home the most bacon and has "good old American [Christian] [family] values", gets votes. In the midwest, the government works for you. Everywhere else, you work for the government. The south is much of the same- the Tennessee Valley Authority? West and Northeast tax dollars giving southerners cheap electricity. Air conditioning is a luxury: heat in the wintertime in the northeast IS NOT. Guess what happened last year? Republicans drastically cut fuel assistance programs in the northeast.
The majority of midwestern voters are ignorant and uneducated (especially in civics issues). Come election time, they don't give a damn about anything outside their town, or anyone except themselves and their family. Most of the reason they're all pissed off about the Iraq war now is because their sons and daughters are coming home in body bags. It has nothing to do with the fact that we arrogantly invaded a sovereign nation plunging it into a civil war...
Please help metamoderate.
Yes. And I look forward to seeing measures taken that will prevent this sort of thing from happening. I just don't think tracking all this information helps.
Actually law enforcement in the US and Europe have been quite successful at such data mining operations with respect to developing associations between people, developing an understanding of how communications and money flows with criminal and terrorist organizations.
The ATnT NSA spying case shows all email is monitored anyway and ATnT will cooperate for their own benefit. It isn't just the emails of the passengers that is captured, everyone's is and they filter for anyone they care to.4 0225
l ikidis-Bugging22aug06.htm
4 56220
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/04/29/0
The Vodaphone Greece spying case shows that mobile phones can be tapped with simple software at the switch.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6182647.stm
http://www.mindfully.org/Technology/2006/Bove-Tsa
The recent FBI case shows the mobile phone is a microphone that can be turned on at any time, it means they don't just monitor telephone calls, but all conversations. The greek spying case was probably much bigger than announced, and may well have been more than just telephone calls.
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/12/04/0
The SWIFT case shows that any large corporation will hand over any information is it is threatened in any single market. That means that SWIFT may be handing information over to the Russians, but we would never know unless it leaked out.
(EU condemns swift spying)
http://cryptome.org/eu-swift-hit.htm
This is #800, though, which is approx 1600 Euros. Not even close. In the US, the limit is $10,000 - it's not that you have to register with anyone, but if you deposit more than $10,000 at once, it's reported to the IRS.
-b.
Horrendous! Britons should be outraged! I bet if we were to look through the government controlled security cameras all over the country there we would see some distressed faces!!!
What amazes me is that we go to such (potential) lengths to inspect people who are entering the country legally, but we can't seem to deal with the zillions of people crossing into the US or overstaying their visas illegally.
ALL the terrorists of 9/11 and the many follow on plots or successes have ONE major thing in common.
They were ALL MUSLIMS.
In addition, many had traveled to Pakistan to take place in jihad training in the various madrassas in places controlled by Al Qaeda and the Taliban (namely, Waziristan).
Someone who's credit card history has charges related to travel to Pakistan should be a RED FLAG demanding intense scrutiny.
Considering that MI 5 head and Sir Ian Blair (Metropolitan Police Head) have estimated that Al Qaeda has about 12,000 active jihadis and a hard core set of supporters in the 200,000 range or so, this is a serious issue. Particularly "Western looking" Muslims recruited to generate mass casualty terror plots.
Make no mistake. Muslim jihadis aim to kill you. Thereby sending the central message of Islam: submit to Islam or die. The death sentence on Rushdie, the murder of Dutch film-maker Theo Van Gogh, the plots against the Danish cartoonists, Israeli civilians, Jews in Buenos Aires, New Yorkers and others on 9/11, Madrid and London commuters, and Thai New Year's Eve celebrants in Bangkok are all part of the same global movement by Islam which can't succeed in the modern world and therefore wants to destroy it.
It will continue long after GWB is gone.
Given the ease in which various chemical and nuclear weapons can be used (imagine Sarin or an aerosol Polonium spray in the NYC subways) this threat is not trivial.
Giving Pakistan connected Brits intense scrutiny may well save not just thousands but tens of thousands of lives. Potentially from Litivenko's horrible death. Checking their credit card history is a sound practice. Those that object can visit elsewhere. Perhaps Iran's Holocaust Denial fest might be more their liking.
[More proof if needed on the general lack of reality comprehension skills and emotional immaturity of the average slashdot reader can be seen in the comments putting other nation's perceptions above physical safety from horrible deaths plotted by British jihadis]
For now, the US require passengers to give away personal details, bank accounts, etc.
This is outrageous enough, but who knows what will be asked next ?
My DNA sample ? AIDS test ? My last choice to the last national elections ? If I have non-"acceptable" friends or lectures ?
How far will the Privacy Right be crushed, just to satisfy the US paranoia ?
Concerning the "don't like the rules, don't come here" comments, how would YOU feel if you were asked such private questions by, say, any north-African airlines ?
And if I'm *required* to fly to the US for work, must I lose my job to keep my private life by refusing to comply ?
BTW, is the UK really that paranoid?
Nah, not really, I exaggerate somewhat, a grand is no problem.
But don't sell a house for cash and try to deposit it in a bank account!!
If someone wants to pay cash for a house, let *him* deposit it in his account and then do a wire transfer to yours.
-b.
Interesting to see this discussion.
When this first started happening a year or so ago we were planning to fly the Atlantic for a holiday, and the stories we were hearing about airport security made us switch from an East Coast tour to Cuba.
We liked it so much that we're going back again this year.
I wouldn't go back to the states if you paid me. Not after I got arrested when I lived there a few years ago for disturbing the peace with my "Honk if you hate Bush" sticker.
It didn't help that I asked the officer "We're not at peace. How could I be disturbing it?".
In Soviet America, thinking is not a crime, and you're absolutely free to do what they tell you.
Yes, indeed, you need a passport. Starting in January, a passport will be required even from citizens of Canada, Mexico, and other countries where it was previously not required. As for knowing your plans, many visitors to the US not only need a passport, but also have to apply in person at a US Consultate or Embassy to obtain a visa. The visa application requires you to tell the US government when you are traveling, how you are planning to get here, when you are going to leave, and how you are going to support yourself during your stay. (Once you get here, though, you won't be under constant surveillance and your money will go much further than in many other places, even in expensive NYC and San Francisco.) As an American, I feel badly about the hassle, and wish that our government would reduce the barriers for international visitors. It may come as a small consolation that the US government has become aware of the need to improve the situation. Perhaps things will improve with the new Congress. Potential visitors should keep in mind that most residents of coastal cities have consistently voted heavily against the Bush Administration and their supporters. In the 2004 election, Bush received only 15% of the vote in Manhattan and San Francisco and less than 10% in Washington, DC. He wouldn't do that well today, so visitors will have no trouble in finding a sympathetic ear as they describe what they had to do to get here. We'll do our best to make you feel welcome.
Nothing is going to be "inspected" by US authorities, and if anything is "inspected", it's not at-will and not arbitrary.
It's already inspected arbitrarily. The Patriot Act, and several later court decisions gives the US government the ability to read anyone's email at will. It would be nice if other governments did not help themselves in the same way, but they do. Princess Dianna's cell phone was tapped by the CIA ten years ago, do you really think your email is private? The criteria of inspection is as arbitrary as politics will always be - a decision is made based on someone's OPINION of what is dangerous. That opinion can be coded or forced onto clerks who get to do the dirty work themselves or by reviewing what carnivore spits out.
All of the above is unconstitutional, illegal and immoral but ongoing. The US has given up the Bill of Rights for it's own citizens, and cares even less about others. It is violating the private papers, homes and conversations of it's citizens. It has curtailed the right to bear arms. It has launched religious based policies but thwarted legitimate religious expression. It has censored the New York Times, created agencies to flood the news with disinformation and thereby shown itself an enemy of truth itself. It has imprisoned and tortured it's own citizens, which shows the regard it really has.
In spite of all that, you think the demand for information is harmless?
Even if you have the proverbial, "nothing to hide," you need to think twice before you give over those who might. You benefit from the efforts of those who "leak" the truth and do other things the current government might not like. As the Irqui insurgence shows, no real security is gained by all of these repressive measures. Peace and security only comes through respect and justice.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Maybe he's one of their legendarily cheerful and friendly immigration officers. That's pretty much the vibe I get from those fuckers every time I go there. It's a real shame, because as you say, once you get past them, people are overwhelmingly polite and helpful.
yet another reason to live a clean, jc-filled life
Remember kids, if you're not paying for the service, YOU ARE THE PRODUCT THAT IS BEING SOLD.
You seriously expect people to believe that were arrested simply because of a bumper sticker?
That aside, you sound like exactly the kind of jackass that would provoke a police officer into arresting you by being nelligerent for absolutley no reason.
What's the real story?
Oh yeah, and I;ve never seen European police go unneccessarily ballistic.
The AML triggers depend upon your profile at the bank. If you do a lot of cash business, say run a pub then no problem - it is in your KYC profile which identifies what is expected of you as a client. Note that if you want to bank such a payment, just think of a suitable excuse. Note that saying "I just sold x grams of coke" probably isn't a good idea. OTOH, saying that you sold something that you might be reasonably expected to posess such as a laptop is fine.
See my journal, I write things there
This is more nonsense. The first time I traveled to the US I had to fill in paper with stupid questions. Then after 911 they started requesting you take your shoes and show you laptop. And now this? Although I don't have anything to hide I won't ever travel to the US again while the policies are in place.
if you pay in cash you'll be classified a possible terrorist by TSA's computer system...
That's a lame excuse for violations of your rights and it does not save you from real harm. When you give government the power to intimidate and harass, they might use it on people who are fighting for your rights.
Some interesting reading:
The list of current issues goes on and on. When you allow government to abuse you, it will.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Not being a bean counter type, I've always wondered what on earth they could look for in your credit card and banking details to make them suspisious.
:-)
I means it's not like you'l have the name of "Mr Joe Terrorist" printed on it or be stupid enough to have "C4 purchase" listed on your statement
We have much friendlier people, better scenery and fewer hurricanes.
.. paranoid crackpot leftover from the days of Amiga.
in fascist America, airport checks YOU!
---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
Note that saying "I just sold x grams of coke" probably isn't a good idea.
It's amazing what you can learn on slashdot. Next week: how to eliminate rival dealers.
If I have nothing to hide, you have no reason to search me
good post, man
for what it's worth - for a bunch of countries you do not need to request a visa. They are on the visa waiver program, and you just fill in a slip that is handed to you on the plane, or you can fill in at the airport where you land. It has the usual questions (who are you, where are you staying, are you a terrorist?), but that's it. The visa waiver program has a maximum of 90 days. For any casual trip, that is more than enough. Obviously if you need a student / work visa, it's a whole different story but I wouldn't say it's any different a story from the vast majority of countries. Having to request a visa from the U.S. Embassy / Consulate is, afaik, standard operating procedure for any nation. You can't very well expect to pick one up at your own government institute as it's not your government that has to approve your flying somewhere else. (Well, some people do.. the "don't leave the country"-type.)
If you do the sell in the "proper" way (contract, taxes) there's nothing to fear as you can demonstrate the money came from a legal commercial transaction. The buyer could get a "bit" of attention, though.
Absolutely. But there are other considerations as well, like how to transport several hundred thousand dollars of cash without risk of "loss." Wire transfer into your account and letting the seller deal with the cash is a lot tidier.
-b.
You might as well realise that your credit card account, bank account, credit history, medical records, employment history, email IO, websurfing history, telephone records and vehicle movements are already an open book to the state (and, thus, to the US state). Why worry now when you've consistently failed to oppose CCTV, ANPR and ID cards? Don't forget that guy from Bristol who texted some Clash lyrics to a friend and was promptly swooped on by the 'security services'.
It will get you tagged as a threat. I know from experience. It's one of the first things they ask. Before 9/11 they had to let me go. Now I'm not so sure. Only terrorists and smugglers use cash. Use a "throwaway" bank account. Keep your real one private. Just like email. Though I know it won't happen, a boycott of the states is in order.
What?
Why? Because it's different from the norm (most people like the convenience and safeguards that credit-card payments provide), and paying cash makes it more difficult to dig up information on you. And incidentally, since 9 out of 10 credit-card companies have their head office in the US, I suspect that all your European credit card transactions will be as accessible to the US authorities as those of US citizins.
So ... in all those bookings you'll have a mass of people who pay by credit-card, some who are in large accounts, some who purchase their tickets through a travel agency. All neat and traceable. And then you have a few percent who pay cash at the counter. Who would you pay special attention to?
It just seems so blindingly obvious that if you were tasked with screening people that you would pay special attention to anyone who seemed to be willing to go to some trouble (by paying cash) to be less easily traced. Although it's not probable that screeners will devote a lot of attention to everyone (screeners probably have a finite amount of resources), if your software can trace someone's credit card (and check where, when, and how the card has or hasn't been used over say the past 5 years ...), you will know a fair amount about the holder (ideally) and you may green-flag that person if nothing suspicious turns up. Just to try and boil down the list of passengers a little, and spend more time with the rest.
After all ... you don't *really* care if someone slips though to raise mayhem ... it's enough if you can show your boss that *you* did your job. And that's a lot easier to prove when someone slips through your computer thought it knew all about than someone it couldn't trace very well, right? So, I'd guess (but that's just a guess on my part) that this screening program contains a line like:
"If Cash_Payment(passenger) Then Raise_Yellow_Flag(passenger)".
I concur on the immigration officers. I'm all for doing your job to a high degree of competency, but smile fucker, you're the welcome wagon, remember?
Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
ha...ha.....uh...ha..ahem...haa...boy, that made me laugh.
What planet do you live on?
I used one of these cards to purchase an airline ticket with cash. Didn't have any trouble. Apparently they are not red-flagged.
Or any other southwestern border state who is being overrun by illegals, and putting such a burden on the social infrastructure...schools, welfare, medical system....
Those tax paying citizens there are paying the price...at least that's what I hear from friends living there...
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
If you pay with credit card, there's only a possibility that your privacy will be invaded. Pay by cash, and your boarding pass gets marked for extra "rubber glove, bend over" security screening with TSA at the metal detector. So you're certain to get your privacy invaded there.
So given the choice between "might" and "will", I'll choose "might" any day.
UAL Extorts nearly $3000 from elderly couple, offers coupons worth $600 and refuses to refund the money
Data mining Europeans has other uses worthy of the US government and the organizations who have access to such data.
To think all the reduced freedoms, loss of privacy, and out right spying on civilian populations is strictly for anti-terrorism is naive, at best.
It is important to remember all the 9/11 terrorists listed were fully documented, and in the USA legally, all with proper identification.
All that documentation didn't make a difference to NYC.
dont have an email or credit car.. so suck it.
Then we'd rather not have you here. You obviously have such a distorted world view that you'd be liable to do something like drink form a container with a skull and cross bones on it and then sue the manufacturer when you get sick.
When you travel internationally you basically have to accept that privacy and anonymity are out. They WILL check your ID and they do have a right to search all your belongings if they feel like it. Even prior to the new US demands for passports from Canada or Mexico, you still had to present ID and they could still search you. Same with every other country I've ever visited. When I landed in Norway they wanted to see my passport and my carroyon got subjected to a random search.
Just how things go with border crossing. Not likely to change much either since it is kinda the defacto standard. I find it unlikely that any given country is going to be the first to say "You know what? Fuck it, no ID at our borders, anyone can come in, we don't care." Countries like to control their borders, and you can argue that's one of their primary jobs.
So at this point, you pretty much just have to accept it as part of international travel. They will know who you are, paying cash won't change that.
Or any other southwestern border state who is being overrun by illegals, and putting such a burden on the social infrastructure...schools, welfare, medical system....
What an argument for a nation founded by immigrants!
Uh, name one. Just one... actually, you said citizenS... so I guess you should name at least two. Oh and define torture while you are at it.
José Padilla, a US citizen is one such victim. There may be others, but the US government does not have to tell you about them for "national security" reasons. Certainly, there are hundreds if not thousands of foreign torture victims, examples and more examples. Not even guilty people deserve that kind of barbaric treatment. This is the result of approving "stress positions," sleep deprivation and other "mild" forms of torture for suspects.
So tell me, who's taking away rights again? ... Have you been arrested for what you are typing?
In the US, it's easier to smear and blacklist your political or economic enemies than it is to jail them. It's called "economic assassination." Domestic spying programs are used to make the blacklists. Political abuse of such programs has happened in the past and should be expected but they hardly ever round up real criminals, so they are always a waste of money. The harm they can do is gauged by the extent of government GDP, currently larger than 25% of the economy. The victim never knows.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Things have been getting steadily worse since 9-11, and the only reason I'd ever visit the United fascist states of amrika is on business, when my company arranges everything.
Fingerprints aside, the fact that you can't lock your luggage (or get the locks smashed by luggage manhandlers) is enough of a deterrent not to go to the US.
Freedom for the people? Hmmm let's see...
0. Torture, indefinite detention and abuse? Check.
1. Warrantless wiretapping, reading your emails? Check
2. The authority to detain and arrest anyone at any place without charge? Check.
3. Freedom of speech squashed? Check.
4. The feds can bust into your house at any time and seize anything they like? Probably put you in the slammer as well? Check.
5. Speak against the republicans and get your ass busted in 15 minutes? Check.
6. No fly list? Check.
7. Tasers for anyone who has the balls to stand up for themselves? Check.
8. One totally brainf***ed legal system? Check.
No thanks, I will pass. The last time I visited the US on "pleasure" was in 1999.
if you were unwilling to lose your privacy you must have something to hide.
Indeed... I think this slashdot article is just an experiment in evolution displayed in textual format.
I'm going to start popping some popcorn and wait for the next headline: "Five percent of slahsdot readership mysteriously arrested"
I'm just commenting on imprisoned citizens here, but the US has done that. One name comes to mind, Jose Padilla, the supposed "dirty bomber".
FalconShould there be a Law?
Doesn't quite work that way, not in New York. In New York, the Akwesasne Mohawks have treaty rights to freely travel between Canada and the US yet many are harassed when they try to cross into the US. On the southern border, the Tohono O'odham Nation, which also has rights to cross the border, is harazzed by border agents who break into their homes and when they aren't doing that they're aiming flashlights into their windows at night. However if you really want to fly into Canada then travel to the US, you want to do it somewhere between Minneasota and Washington, between the Great Lakes and Puget Sound. There you can drive on a bunch of roads from Canada to the US without having to go through any border crossings, many don't even have border guards or agents.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Normally only when it is saved in the PNR will a credit card be sent. Naturally if you wish to use a CC as frequent flyer, then it NEEDS to be saved in the PNR, else it won't be sent to the airline in the PNL (Passenger Name List a document generated by reservation systems and sent to the check in systems) and the airline add your flown miles to your frequent flyer account at check in time (or afterward). Although I can imagine at sales time you could do it in a complicated manner (send the data to a separate DB but not save it in the PNR & use the PNR key+name as index, then at check in time send the PFS message to show that the pax flew, but it is way more complicated than to save the frequent flyer number in the PNR).
As for the CC used as identification at check in time, I can't speak for every system , but the few I know of do not "save" the CC (and thus it is not sent to the immrgation) it is only used as a check of the name for the identity. And as far as I know it is only a US concept anyway to request a CC when you paid cash: I did indeed pay cash in many other country all over the world for flight tickets (out of credit card fraud concern) and was never requested to show my CC except in the US.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
If we were to become entirely dependent on outside food sources, you'd see the same problems with food that we see with oil today. You want Mexico or Brazil to have that kind of control over us?
This is exactly what is happening in Mexico, and why we have so many "illegal immigrants" trying to get into the US. Because of farm subsidies to big agrobusinesses in the US and NAFTA, they are able to ship and sale food to Mexico cheaper than Mexican farmers can grow it. This drives Mexican farmers off their farms and into Mexican cites as well as north to the US. Then those who go into Mexican cites drive others north as well.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Europe dealt with her terrorist problem trying to avoid instituting terror herself.
Except Spain didn't want to negotiate with the Basque. And now it's Catalonia that wants self determination, along with Andalusia and other regions of Spain. All of these regions weren't even part of "Spain" until after Queen Isabela started to unite them all.
FalconShould there be a Law?
However: Homeland Security is completely ridiculous. I can't bring water on an airplane thanks to the insane regulations. I NEED to be drinking water constantly. It's not an option.
Dehydrate easily do you? Same here so I always make sure I have a drink with me, when I go out I carry my Camelbak. I have twice collapsed and passed out because I dehydrated and both tymes I ran out of water while we were out in the field when I was in the army. From those experiences I learned to make sure I could quickly get a drink so the Camelbak.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Too bad the late President Gerald Ford couldn't somehow be brought back as a zombie, given his postumously-published comments about how little he thought of President Bush's violation of Americans' privacy rights. For that matter, I wonder why this honest and forthright man couldn't have summoned the courage to express his opinion of Mr. Bush's programs while he was still alive!
How do you survive in all those places that don't normally like you to have food and drink? Cabs? Theaters? And so on and so forth?
When I go out I always take my Camelbak with me. I only rarely have someone ask me what it is, none have been employees yet though, and when I explain what it is they usually ask where they can get one.
FalconShould there be a Law?
I went to the States 4 times in '06 and I have to say, besides the long queue on occasion, I've had no complaint in the "Friendly face" department.
Also, somehow it would bother me if these folks wouldn't be doing their job. In many ways that would be a lot worse.
At least now, the questioning and thoroughness was consistent all 4 times.
News about the Kettle Open Source project: on my blog
Dear Americans,
Thank-you for your concern. Unfortunately you seem to forget that we have been dealing with terrorism in western Europe - notably, Spain and the UK - for several decades. Indeed, the Irish Republican bombing campaign was largely funded by an American charity.
We've already seen massive loss of personal privacy to cope with that, including the world's largest CCTV camera to population ratio, imprisonment without open trial and even imprisonment with no trial whatsoever, plus a chip & pin payment system that ensures all CC payments are made electronically trackable rather than the old paper-and-ink slips.
And d'ya know what? Journalists complain, activists complain, but the vast majority of common people just carry on voting those kinds of laws back in. Because this loss of privacy actually does seem to save lives.
But the oddest thing of all, is that you guys aren't doing the thing that saved the most lives. Y'see, the thing that actually brought the Northern Ireland bombing campaign to a close was, we negotiated with the terrorists.
Andrew Oakley - www.aoakley.com
Can somebody give me more details on what US immigration (and indeed other countries) reserve the right to do to my suitcase when I travel in? I noticed in a flight magazine when travelling UK->Italy that a company was selling locks "approved by US Immigration, they have the keys to this lock so they can open your luggage without damaging it" (or similar text). This rather freaked me out as I trust 99.999% of the immigration officers but I'm afraid I am a little cynical about human nature, just needs to be one corrupt official and there goes my expensive all weather coat/Christmas presents for my friend/ etc.
I don't mind if somebody asks me to open my luggage in front of them and checks through it but I am a bit unhappy about the idea of immigration officers either requiring me to leave my bag open for them or reserving the right to smash up my luggage. If they smash their way into my bags do they refund me for damages? Or am I considered a potential terrorist threat if I don't purchase US authorities approved luggage?
This doesn't affect only UK citizens, but those from other EU countries like myself, too. They're also not the only ones 'bitching' about it, but they are those who's newspaper articles you can understand the easiest.
Plans to travel to the US any time soon? Not if I can avoid it.
Are in the EU.
If they're based in the US (say, VISA and gmail), the US can simply grab it via the PATRIOT act. Though this is more of an argument for not sharing any potentially sensitive information with American companies.
Actually, I was in Austin a few months ago and people there were uniformly polite and welcoming. Quite different from my previous experience of the US. I'm told that Austin is the big exception in Texas, and that if I'd been in any other city things would've been different -- but all the same, credit where credit's due, I'd recommend the place any day. Even the immigration guys (seeing as I have a European passport and all) were laid-back and polite, from 'how you doing' to 'have a nice day, now'.
And as for the airport security on the way back, I wish BAA at Heathrow and Gatwick would go bankrupt and be taken over by whoever arranged those guys, because it's been years since I heard a civil word from a BAA minion. Whereas the guy at Austin airport quickly discovered I spoke German and prattled away in it for a good five minutes - it was not a busy time of day, I was early, and apparently he'd been stationed at Heidelberg or something.
I don't really enjoy the idea of my fingerprints, bank account details and hamster's pedigree sitting in an American database (or any other, come to that). But, fair's fair, the whole experience was extremely positive. As for culture, the place may not be Venice or St Petersburg but for a variety of reasons, I'd far rather be in Austin than (say) Hamburg, Exeter or Milton Keynes.
Credit cards leave paper trails.
Yeah, I think that about sums up the article. Why is this news?
I'm not sure how it would be if you asked your average European person, but ask many an American about such things and you're likely to get an equally blank stare.
Of course, I can't comment much on the subject, as I'm Canadian and sometimes I think the average Canuck knows more about US history (or TV-show law, etc) than he or she does about local history. Try asking 'em what Nixon is famous for Vs Trudeau, for example.
Just because I'm proud to live up here doesn't mean the folks to the south have _everything_ wrong.
> We have much friendlier people
Bullshit. I've had perfect strangers come up and chat with me in the States and perfect strangers cuss at me in Canada. There are friendly people and jerks in any country.
> better scenery
Colorado, Alaska, Arizona, Hawaii, etc. - very, very beautiful.
> and fewer hurricanes
Why would we rub that in someone's face?
you are all a bunch of idiots. you had it so good, and you fucked it up. If you were smart you should be the ones in civil war, because your current dictator rigged the election 2 times running and you are doing fuck all about it.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Read my other comment in this thread concerning Padilla, or should I use the name he choses, Abdullah al-Muhajir.
Ok, I found where you say "Abdullah al-Muhajir does not qualify as innocent" but in the US it's innocent until proven guilty. He may very well actually be guilty but in order to keep him in gaol he needs to be convicted of charges. He hasn't been therefore as long as he's kept a prisoner he's an innocent prisoner. Charges need to be filed against him and he needs to have his day in court.
FalconShould there be a Law?
An article at Ars has a much more realistic viewpoint on this Telegraph article.
Yoda of Borg am I! Assimilated shall you be! Futile resistance is, hmm?
There is one major reason why pork is unevenly distributed: the smallest, poorest states get as many senatorial votes as the largest, richest states. The Senate, being the more important and prestigous house, has far more pull on Capitol Hill than the House. The numerous, small, poor states gang up on the rich states in the Senate and take all their tax money. Look at the figures posted in another post responding to yours. You can write them off (and you have, obviously) but your roads/land area theory is not nearly enough to account for the huge disparity. The hilarious thing is that the small, poor states tend to be Republican, and tend to have a strong sense that they are made up of rugged individualists who accept no charity and pull their own weight. In fact, it is the bleeding heart liberal states that financially support the rest of the country.
I'm sure that, in the back of their heads, many poor-staters know this, and this is what fuels their jealous hatred of liberals.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Nope.
Some of the comments are just absurd and there is no need to repeat them, just scan them and the themes you derive-
1) Entering the US dangerous to ones personal freedom and the larger picture that US policy
is eroding personal freedom around the world
2) The Privacy Police are going to crawl up your colon for simply entering the US and you
shouldn't use a credit card so as to preserve annonymity
3) George W Bush is the evil mastermind hell bent on knowing all of your intimate details and
as soon as we can get you in a lineup in your tighty whities with a Pit Bull chomping at
your nuts, the closer to full implementation Bush's plan becomes and we can get round 2 of
Abu Gharaib or however you frickin spell it.
Let me set you straight dumbasses...
If you own a credit card all of your personal information has already been collected and archived and is probably on some server in India or other 3rd world "emerging" economy where its open season on Americans, Brits and allies. I may be selling India short since they may be coming around since their love affair with the Soviets ended but only time will tell and hanging Brits on holiday seems to be the new pastime in some parts of India.
My point is that more of your personal information is already known by those pesky telemarketers and your worried about the TSA wanting to know who you are when you get on a plane.
So in conclusion, if your putting off that trip to the USA because you fear Bush or just because you haven't had any in recent memory, well since your Cisco stock tanked anyway, stay home and wallow in your idiocy and continue doing damage in your own country thank you.
Because I can assure you, we dont need the money
free press index 2006 - http://www.rsf.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=639
... via the holes in the fence in Southern California!
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
I don't see any evidence of torture, except for Abdullah al-Muhajir's claims. However, it's hard to take that seriously when claiming torture is literally taken directly from the Al Qaeda handbook. Does it not bother you that you are playing into the hands of the enemies of the US just because you hate Bush so much?
I'm not sure that I trust the FBI these days, but some of them have come forward with allegations of routine torture for people who are often released without charge. They may have been guilty of only being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and most are deemed safe for release, aka not dangerous. In Jose's case, it was to a US citizen.
What enemy? My country is defined by a Constitution and Bill of Rights, nothing more. The US can be any shape and size or hold any people, so long as they understand and obey the US constitution. Those who violate the Constitution are enemies of the US, regardless of party affiliation or anything else they might say. Wiretapping, torture, unreasonable search, and so on are un-American. Bandits who fly airplanes into buildings are unable to do real damage.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Lots of terrorists out there that aren't muslim. Terror attacks didn't start on the 11th September 2001 and alas unrelated groups haven't stopped acts of violence since then. Your thoughts on: Timothy McVeigh, the IRA, the UDA, ETA... ?
Muslim=terrorist just isn't going to get us anywhere my friend any more than Irish=terrorist did for the last 40 years. From a European perspective many more terrorist acts over the last 100 years have been perpetrated by supposed believers in other religions, primarily the Christian faith.
Red flagging anybody who travels to or from Pakistan isn't going to help us: in the UK at least we have a significant minority population, perfectly law abiding, who have relatives there. I'd be interested in hearing from police or customs people who might have experience of how effective immigration controls on N.I.->mainland UK and USA->N.I. had on the Irish terror activities.
What are you waiting then to stop the illegal immigrants going there?
Please let us know when US citizens and legal residents are ready to clean toilettes, do the gardening, pick up produce in farms, flip burgers, clean your houses, care for your children.
You will have your precious public services back.
And a collapsed economy.
Which is why your double faced government does absolutely nothing to stop illegal immigration.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Comparing Hamburg to Austin is frankly ridiculous.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Selling civil liberties for a false sense of security.
All the 9-11 guys had valid documents, several of them had been identified as potential terrorists, but the sharing of information between different US government agencies was crap to say the least.
You are advocating giving more information to agencies that have demonstrated are hopeless at handling it.
Great way to combat terrorism that of yours buddy.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.