Slashdot Mirror
UK's Blair Dismisses Online Anti ID-Card Petition
An anonymous reader writes "Prime Minister Tony Blair has responded personally via email to 28,000 online petitioners opposing the UK's planned identity card scheme, and has closed the online petition. The email reads: 'We live in a world in which people, money and information are more mobile than ever before. Terrorists and international criminal gangs increasingly exploit this to move undetected across borders and to disappear within countries. Terrorists routinely use multiple identities — up to 50 at a time... ID cards which contain biometric recognition details and which are linked to a National Identity Register will make this much more difficult.'"
Link to the actual petition -> here
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
Who says democracy in the UK is dead?
Slaves,
When your masters gives you something, you take it. I'm giving you a nice
new collar so you can't hide or run away. The global plantation has
grown to such a size we just have to have smart chains and collars.
"The petition calling for the Government to abandon plans for a National ID Scheme attracted almost 28,000 signatures - one of the largest responses since this e-petition service was set up. So I thought I would reply personally to those who signed up, to explain why the Government believes National ID cards, and the National Identity Register needed to make them effective, will help make Britain a safer place." Translation: "Sod the petition. We're not listening to you. You are all wrong." No need to read any further really. I didn't really need to read the rest.
Much like a European way of looking at the world doesn't adequately appreciate how the modern USA came into existence and operates now, your way of looking at Europe is coloured by where you come from and as a result isn't as valid as it could be. Europeans do not concentrate on 'freedom' as much which will be so contrary to your beliefs that you won't understand the ramifications, and you'll dismiss that way of thinking without giving it further thought.
The camels are coming. I'm in love.
The point of the petition was that we don't care that the 'Terrorists' COULD POSSIBLY use our ID details to accomplish their nefarious schemes. However, we do object to the DEFINATE invasion of our privacy in order to prevent something that MIGHT happen.
Note the difference.
Ninjas use italics.
The anti-congestion charge one has racked up over 1.5 million signatures, and that too is going to be ignored.
:(
Last week I created a petition asking the government to actually pay notice to the petition service that *THEY* set up, and not just give it lip-service when it suits them... That petition request was rejected.
So much for democracy
Sig out of date
"Prime Minister Tony Blair has...... closed the online petition."
There was a deadline for signatures and it has passed. Blair has responded to the petitioners after the petition was complete. That sounds more like he was pissed of with it and closed the petition. The fact that the prime minister personally closed the petition was the item in this story that pissed me off the most and that wasn't even true.
There's plenty we can moan at Blair for without making things up.
But still not impossible. And those who rely on such dubious activities will still have the opportunity to fake their identities, which leads the whole endeavor ad absurdum, and leaves Joe Average stripped off of a great deal of the little privacy people (especially in the UK, spycams everywhere) still have left in our oh-so-great digital age. So let's just implement it anyways, despite 28K people publicly speaking out against it, because it's such a great idea... not.
:%s/Open Source/Free Software/g
YTARY!
If terrorists justify everything, terrorists are an irresistible weapon for a dishonest government.
In Italy the communist BR have appeared in two occasions lately. Some years ago they killed two people, D'Antona and Biagi, the second one was working on a law on new type of flexible work contracts. Result, the Biagi bill gets passed with nobody daring to make a discussion. Same kind of laws in france wrecked the government caused unrest.
Ten days ago a police operation finds terrorists who were plotting against berlusconi et al. Media start talking about terrorism again and a national demonstration in Vicenza against the planned increase of american military presence in the nearby base, having a sizable percentage of leftists, becomes a terrorist threat.
People who started protesting because their city, Vicenza, is already too crowded first get commies using the occasion to burn flags, then they are looked upon the police as potential terrorists. Checkmate.
---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
What does this have to do with the Welfare state? Aside from the fact that this government is probably the least pro-welfare Labour government ever, and possibly even less so than the last conservative government, the ID cards concept has been supported by some of the most right wing politicians in the country.
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
It's really easy to say, "Terrorists routinely do this." I suspect there is some truth to it in this case, but I don't like the whole "Take my word for it. The terrorists are always doing this." being a justification for whatever the fuck rights they wish to trample.
The e-petition to "scrap the proposed introduction of ID cards" has now closed. The petition stated that "The introduction of ID cards will not prevent terrorism or crime, as is claimed. It will be yet another indirect tax on all law-abiding citizens of the UK". This is a response from the Prime Minister, Tony Blair.
The petition calling for the Government to abandon plans for a National ID Scheme attracted almost 28,000 signatures - one of the largest responses since this e-petition service was set up. So I thought I would reply personally to those who signed up, to explain why the Government believes National ID cards, and the National Identity Register needed to make them effective, will help make Britain a safer place.
The petition disputes the idea that ID cards will help reduce crime or terrorism. While I certainly accept that ID cards will not prevent all terrorist outrages or crime, I believe they will make an important contribution to making our borders more secure, countering fraud, and tackling international crime and terrorism. More importantly, this is also what our security services - who have the task of protecting this country - believe.
So I would like to explain why I think it would be foolish to ignore the opportunity to use biometrics such as fingerprints to secure our identities. I would also like to discuss some of the claims about costs - particularly the way the cost of an ID card is often inflated by including in estimates the cost of a biometric passport which, it seems certain, all those who want to travel abroad will soon need.
In contrast to these exaggerated figures, the real benefits for our country and its citizens from ID cards and the National Identity Register, which will contain less information on individuals than the data collected by the average store card, should be delivered for a cost of around £3 a year over its ten-year life.
But first, it's important to set out why we need to do more to secure our identities and how I believe ID cards will help. We live in a world in which people, money and information are more mobile than ever before. Terrorists and international criminal gangs increasingly exploit this to move undetected across borders and to disappear within countries. Terrorists routinely use multiple identities - up to 50 at a time. Indeed this is an essential part of the way they operate and is specifically taught at Al-Qaeda training camps. One in four criminals also uses a false identity. ID cards which contain biometric recognition details and which are linked to a National Identity Register will make this much more difficult.
Secure identities will also help us counter the fast-growing problem of identity fraud. This already costs £1.7 billion annually. There is no doubt that building yourself a new and false identity is all too easy at the moment. Forging an ID card and matching biometric record will be much harder.
I also believe that the National Identity Register will help police bring those guilty of serious crimes to justice. They will be able, for example, to compare the fingerprints found at the scene of some 900,000 unsolved crimes against the information held on the register. Another benefit from biometric technology will be to improve the flow of information between countries on the identity of offenders.
The National Identity Register will also help improve protection for the vulnerable, enabling more effective and quicker checks on those seeking to work, for example, with children. It should make it much more difficult, as has happened tragically in the past, for people to slip through the net.
Proper identity management and ID cards also have an important role to play in preventing illegal immigration and illegal working. The effectiveness on the new biometric technology is, in fact, already being seen. In trials using this technology on visa applications at just nine overseas posts, our officials have already uncovered 1,400 people trying illegally to get back into
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
Blair has been interviewed repeatedly about a cash for honors scandal. Where money was paid in exchange for Knighthoods and Peerages. Bush gets access to all European Internal banking records via SWIFT. Blair becomes a Bush poodle, making UK law subservient to US interests.
Can nobody else see a connection here?
There is a huge opportunity for blackmail if a bank record for a politician reveals something they don't want revealed. Whether it's cash for honors, donations to political groups, payments to mistresses or anything else.
All 9/11 hijackers had a proper ID with no prior criminal record. I don't see how biometric ID would have solved anything besides making airport security more confident in letting them through. Known terrorists like Bin Laden would rather stay in their air conditioned caves and let grunts do all the work.
I don't understand what's wrong with national ID cards as such. It's just a method of authentication, just like your passport is, to tell that you are who you claim you are.
Why the paranoia? Nordic countries have had such cards (and citizen registrars) at least since WW2...to help with issues such as arranging voting (no need to "Register as a voter"), social security, taxes, etc.
The biometrics part of the UK id card is of course another issue - fingerprints, retinal scans, DNA and all that is not proven secure. Unique to every human being, yes, but hardly secure. You leave your fingerprints all over the place. You leave your DNA all over the place. Somehow the advocates of biometrics seem to be lulled into a sense that biometrics is absolutely secure method of authentication - this is the primary problem.
How are you going to close a petition? At least have the decency to let them finish what they have to say before your closed mind shuts them up.
My page.
He's just doing the kiddie lie thing of telling a half truth. Of course such a system may/will make what he said harder for terrorist and the other boogey men - I don't doubt that in the same way that I don't doubt that if it is hard for me to breathe in a room due to lack of air a terrorist would also find it hard to breathe. If those things become difficult for everyone who isn't 100% "simon-says" follower then the terrorists will not be exempt.
However, and I may just be misguided and paranoid, I find myself a lot more afraid of a large governments with massive databanks, financial caches, and military assets powered by men trained to be unquestioning soldiers (for better or worse) that some pissed off and somewhat oprressed (some might say cursed) terrorist.
So yah I see much more potential for bad than potential for good - from what I hear we as Earthlings have a greater chance of Aophis destroying us than terrorist.
"Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
Bullshit. That hasn't to do anything with welfare but everything with the US-made terrorist scare.
The idea of welfare is that one gets ones rights back, namely the right to live even if every capitalist asshole out there denies you a job and then says you should die because you are job- and therefore worthless.
If it had anything to do with welfare he would say that he needs it so he can make sure that if anyone doesn't deserve welfare (namely, everybody who either works and therefore doesn't need it and everybody who doesn't work and therefore is too lazy to live) he doesn't receive it.
The idea of a national ID card, however, serves to control the populace by always knowing who is where, facilitating easier arrests of unwanted elements like protesters, liberals or pro-welfare people (and doesn't work at all against terrorists, because they tend to come from another country and thus are not in the national database - what is he going to do, shooting all tourists?).
Europeans would say the same about you having given up the right to universal health care and education. And maybe we might comment on allowing gun fanatics to run your society. I'm not sure your 'freedom' is that intact anymore either... Its also worth pointing out that Tony Blair is practically a laughing stock in the UK now. he has little time left before he leaves, and trying to push any controversial legislation through would probably lead to a massive rebellion in his own party. Even his own cabinet ministers are no longer behind him.
And yet Blair isn't letting that stop him from pushing this bill.
There is a fine line between recklessness and courage... -- Paul McCartney
I have no idea how democracy in the UK works, but why start an online petition on a political matter? Here in Switzerland, if you don't like a law you just collect 50'000 signatures and call a referendum. This means everyone can vote on this matter and decide for themselves.
An online petition has absolutely no effect! Film at 11!
Becuase they didn't want Blair to have access to their identities.
enough said.
I personally am voting against Blair and his dictatorship state.
What the Hell? I NEVER HEARD ABOUT THIS PETITION!
I listen to the news on the radio, I visit the BBC news website, and I read Slashdot, which is a good source of privacy stories, and I never heard about it. Admittedly I don't have a TV, but this is the kind of information I seek out. I would have put my name to it in a second. Where was it advertised? If even I didn't hear about it, how on Earth would most of the UK have heard about it?
One thing the the politicians never explain is how the ID card and biometric database is suppose to stop terrorists. I am sure that the system will allow for government agents, undercover policemen etc. to have multiple identities - ie that a given set of biometrics maps to more than one identity. So if the system allows 'authorised' multiple identities then I am sure that terrorists could subvert it to obtain multiple identities for themselves.
I have been around for five decades now and it strikes me that "the government" have always wanted ID cards and "the opposition" have always objected.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
No one ever questioned if this could be useful for the governments.
Just like no one ever questioned if DNA registers could at least theoretically be useful.
This is not what the petition is about. It's about the fact that all registers can and will be mis-used "for the better".
And that's an awful lot of lets-be-afraid-of-terrorists mumbo-jumbo. I'd say, let's understand what makes terrorists do what they do. Let's analyze and talk about that. Perhaps is it linked with the gigantic abuse of poor people in poor countries led by todays imperialistic crusades.
Tony Blair did not close the petition. The petition had an ending date of five days ago and that date didn't change.
Anyway, I see the ID card scheme is a good idea and I will gladly use it because it means I will not need to carry around so much paper proof of my identity for when I need to prove it to open bank accounts, get a mortgage etc. Not needing my most sensitive and important paper based ID easily to hand also means I can store it in a more secure location. If my ID card does get stolen it will be easier to cancel and to replace than if I lost my paper based ID. All these things I see as helping to reduce ID fraud and that is a big positive in my book.
Martin Piper
Owner - ReplicaNet and RNLobby
"You and others should know that some of us American servicemen would gladly die for the UK"
What if the enemy was the British people and the 'good' guys were Bush and Blair, would you fight, kill and die for Blair again ordinary brits then?
GP's post was an accurate statement of how many of us feel about Blair right now, it happens to be the majority view of Britain. It may be harsh the way he put it, but its accurate.
Blair will shortly resign and so is no longer bound by democracy, so what the British people want gets placed second to what Blair wants. You should recall it was the British *people* who were on your side over 911, and freedom and democracy is what you are fighting for. Not the power crazed little shit in number 10.
Nothing surprising about this move. The petitions were only allowed for the same reason that public enquiries are allowed. They create an illusion of consultation, but because they usually come to the attention of only a few particularly interested people any opposition to the government view can be safely ignored. What the government failed to consider with online petitions are that they can be easily filled in by people once they have been informed of their existence by the same medium - the internet. This is why government sources described the person who came up wih the idea as an idiot last week (I'm not joking).
In this particular case the comnpanies that stand to make a fortune from government contracts to bring in the ID card are the same companies providing directorships to former ministers, MPs and civil servants. The so called "revolving door". As the right dishonourable Tony Blair MP is soon to be out of a job he's more than likely to go the extra mile to keep these companies happy. He needs a job after leaving office, as his mortgage commitments are astronomical (again, I'm not joking).
We don't trust the government -- simple as that.
The reasons for implementing this may be noble now, but laws change and what will the data be used for then?
We don't need you to patrinise us by attempting to explain why we are wrong My Blair. What many of us are trying to say to you is that we fully understand your viewpoint so you can stop explaining it to us. What we are saying to you is that you are wrong. Wrong because you don't have a very good understanding of security. Wrong because you have no ability to clearly judge the value this scheme will give us. Wrong because you have the terror threat out of proportion. Wrong because you are wasting our money on something we don't want or need.
Your job is to represent our views, not to decide what is best for your self and explain to us why you think it is right.
Honestly, I don't think you have the understanding of security issues to grasp why biometriecs are a very bad choice for personal security, nor do I think you have the imagination to forsee the abuses that could come of this. Combine these two things with your governments record on large scale IT projects and anyone can see that we are heading for disaster.
-- MartinG To mail me: echo kewyjlcxyzvjfxbqwh | tr bcefhjklqvwxyz
I agree with you on universal health care and education, but guns? Guns are an important part of maintaining a balance of power between the government and the people in a free society. Stop treating gun-owning rights as if it were incompatible with a free society. It is not. Governments get corrupt and have to be overthrown. "People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people." But sadly, this is not how it is in most of the world. So I ask you, "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" -Patrick Henry. For many, it apparently is (see North Korea for a prime example of the world powers maintaining the status quo to avoid war; sometimes war is necessary and just. We have the power to stop this regime, but refuse. Which is the greater "evil" occurring here?). If you make guns illegal, only criminals will have guns! Just like drugs, et cetera ... People should be held accountable only for their actions, but merely owning a gun (and using it in defense or sport or overthrowing corrupt governments) or taking drugs should not be a crime and is not immoral.
No2ID, the UK's leading campaign against the National Identity Card and the Database State, realised even before this petition was launched that the site exists only to encourage "fire and forget" activism from people. People signing up to No2ID are encouraged to subscribe to a fortnightly e-mail newsletter which keeps them up to date with the latest news on ID Cards in Government and across the country.
The No2ID campaign has encouraged a 30% swing in public opinion against Identity Cards, has encouraged councils and other organisations across the country to oppose the Government's plans, and formed a wide alliance of political parties and unions from all sides of the spectrum in opposition to this scheme. It's unlikely that the Tories would have come out against ID cards (albeit in a half-arsed way) without No2ID's influence.
If people want to make a difference, joining and supporting No2ID is the best way to do so. There are local groups nationwide, which can always benefit from more supporters.
Step 1. Introduce mandatory biometric ID cards/database
Step 2. "Papiere gefallen. Keine Papiere? Gegen die Wand!"
Step 3. ?
Step 4. Prevent terrorism.
Fuck you all.
We know best, and you know how to pay for it.
Sincerely,
HM Government.
We're at war with terrorists. We've always been at war with terrorists.
The Party is never wrong.
Big Blair is always watching you.
Yes, nice ideal. But explain to me: just how does an untrained, most likely unorganised public armed with hand-guns, rifles, shot-guns, a few machine guns and some gangsta rappers take on a government with an army and air-force and tanks and warplanes and rocket-launchers?
The government has tanks. Guns aren't going to help. The only way to defeat the government is to get the tanks on your side. In which case the gun is going to be more of a hindrance. Being unarmed is a much better defence against a tank than a pop-gun. I've got a video from Tiananmen square to prove it.
Meanwhile, guns have not prevented the US government from sending people to prison without due process, didn't do anything about the McCarthy witch hunts, and haven't prevented local government from enacting all sorts of petty laws and ordinances.
This petition is, as I write this, the #1 petition on the "Most Popular" list, with 1,672,571 signatures. It charges that "The idea of tracking every vehicle at all times is sinister and wrong." Its deadline is "today," the 20th. I'm interested in seeing what happens to it.
By the way, does that site have any way of verifying that there are actually 1.67M supporters as opposed to three supporters plus non-Brits, multiple clicks, fake names, and spambots?
Revive the Constitution.
"it is clear that if we want to travel abroad, we will soon have no choice but to have a biometric passport."
... wtf is kool-aid?
what dos that mean? who told him that? its not clear at all!
bring back the ponies!
bring bak the ponies!!
This won't work for two reasons :
So searching for matching biometric data won't detect terrorist keeping low profile and is at risk of harassing innocent people who had the bad luck to very much look alike some criminal idiot at the other side of the country whom they've never heard about.
ID cards proponents should stop pushing it as "the" miracle solution to terrorism, and only present it as what it is : a ID which is marginally more difficult to abuse compared to previous solution, and which will be handy (in countries lacking one before) as a quick solution for everyday usage when you need to show someone else your identity (like giving your age before entering in a night-club, before buying alcohol, while using a credit card, when going to the administration, etc.) A single standarised card is more convenient than having tens of different type of picture ID and seeing the one you handled refused because "Sorry, I don't know the ID. I can't determine if it wasn't tampered with. Do you have any other ID ?". But I'll never magically remove terrorism
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
And you are also identified as one who 'opposed government attempts to prevent terrorism'. When they come looking for suspects, you'll be higher up the list.
If you're a UK citizen and can see what a bad implementation of a disastrous idea this is going to turn out to be, please join no2id.org and help in a practical way, as well as moaning about it on Slashdot! :)
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." -- Goethe
Downing Street to send Blair emails to 2 million road pricing protesters
Furious minister resists policy concessions
E-petitions site creator hails changing democracy
Will Woodward, Patrick Wintour and Dan Milmo
Wednesday February 14, 2007
The Guardian
Downing Street will respond to a surge of support for a petition on its website condemning its road pricing plans, which could reach 2m signatures by next week.
With Douglas Alexander, the transport secretary, resisting concessions, No 10 sources acknowledged they had to deliver a gesture to the protesters. That is likely to take the form of an email to each signatory from the prime minister, explaining the pricing plans in greater detail.
Two million people, in a country of 60 million, sign the petition. Discount the children, the elderley who haven't voted, and consider the demographics and percentage of people in the UK who don't use a computer or wouldn't generally use one to sign a petition.
This is why we think Blair = Bliar
Downing Street to send Blair emails to 2 million road pricing protesters Furious minister resists policy concessions E-petitions site creator hails changing democracy Will Woodward, Patrick Wintour and Dan Milmo Wednesday February 14, 2007 The Guardian Downing Street will respond to a surge of support for a petition on its website condemning its road pricing plans, which could reach 2m signatures by next week. With Douglas Alexander, the transport secretary, resisting concessions, No 10 sources acknowledged they had to deliver a gesture to the protesters. That is likely to take the form of an email to each signatory from the prime minister, explaining the pricing plans in greater detail.
When this government began raising the ID card idea and held a public consultation, they received a large number of signatures to a petition opposing them. But those thousands of opponents were 'counted' as a single opposing point of view. So the 'for' and 'against' numbers were deliberately distorted to make it look as if there was support for the idea. This allowed it to go forward and develop as an idea.
Furious minister resists policy concessions
E-petitions site creator hails changing democracy
Will Woodward, Patrick Wintour and Dan Milmo
Wednesday February 14, 2007
The Guardian
Downing Street will respond to a surge of support for a petition on its website condemning its road pricing plans, which could reach 2m signatures by next week.
With Douglas Alexander, the transport secretary, resisting concessions, No 10 sources acknowledged they had to deliver a gesture to the protesters. That is likely to take the form of an email to each signatory from the prime minister, explaining the pricing plans in greater detail.
It's not about the card. Not really. It's the NIR database - an automated system for recording where you go, what you buy, your interactions with officials and (some) of what you do. This takes a lot of smaller databases, many of which already exist, and integrates them into a single database, which (in theory) gives an accurate record of your entire life in a single place. Then the NIR database is updated whenever you use your card (or something linked to it).
Concerns include:
1. Records might not be accurate.
2. People might commit crimes using other people's identities.
3. Records might be used to build criminal cases against people when the police have little evidence (see 1 and 2).
4. Records might be data-mined for "patterns of suspicious activity" to detect criminals. This might produce false positives.
5. People might end up having to prove their own innocence, rather than the onus being on the authorities to prove guilt.
In addition, any database specialist will be able to suggest concerns about the security of the system, especially as it will have a large number of users, throughout the civil service and private business.
>north
You're an immobile computer, remember?
"Being unarmed is a much better defence against a tank than a pop-gun. I've got a video from Tiananmen square to prove it."
Yeah, because the guy is still alive. And his side has won.
Get your head out of your ass: nobody thinks about Tiananmen anymore. Deal with it.
Yeah, I really admire Tank Man as well; it's a very powerful image (one the PRC showed as "valiant restraint" btw on the media, nevermind that the army blew away hordes of distressed family members wanting to find their lost relatives the next day), but what if all of those people did have access to guns; would they have been able to overthrow the government? Maybe so ... Without guns, however, they ultimately failed to do so, so though Tank Man may or may not have survived, many people died or are still rotting in a Chinese prison today. I don't think that guns are a "silver bullet" (ha-ha), as you still need enough people willing to fight to oust the corrupt government -- absolutely, and it never hurts to have some military units on your side, too.
Before the UK went to Iraq, there were demonstrations with up to 2 million people
But then, after we went to war, the Labour party got re-elected. If we're slaves, it's our own fault.
At some point, somewhere, the entire internet will be found to be illegal.
Regarding your third point, yes, a lot of data is out there. Collecting it is part of a two-step political strategy. Figure that a civil libertarian doesn't want their government monitoring and analyzing their every move for suspicious behavior. So, a well-meaning person who thinks such a system is a good idea will say the following. One: "We're implementing a bunch of specific data-gathering systems for a variety of mostly-harmless purposes. Don't be paranoid; we'd never hook them up into a massive all-seeing database to analyze your every move, and there are plenty of safeguards on the data." Two: "We're merging existing databases and applying powerful new data-mining tools to them, but how can you complain? You already agreed that we could collect this data, and we're doing it to fight drugs/porn/terrorism. Besides, we'd never add a bunch of new systems to collect yet more data." Repeat.
In related news, Blair has called for a universal database of the DNA of British subjects and backed a bill against speech that "stirs up religious hatred." The UK has begun using cameras that bark orders at people. Then there's the plan to monitor all vehicle movements in the UK, the topic of petition #1 on the UK petition site.
Revive the Constitution.
In US terms this is the pork barrel to end pork barrels, and a way to ensure a continued revenue stream to Blair Inc when he leaves office. Because I'm sure that:
He will be "advising" those companies for a fee
She, as a human rights lawyer, will be deriving fee income from (a) civil liberties groups challenging aspects of the scheme and (b) Government departments on the other side.
This is a wonderful earning opportunbity for the Blairs, and they will not let it go without a huge fight.
Pining for the fjords
al qaeda is your best friend...
they always arrive when you need them
yes theyre always around just when you need them
when your down in the polls, theyll drop a bomb
when youre stories full of holes...theyll drop a bomb
when there is an election, and you're in trouble
they arrive on the double
Snog "al Qaeda is your best friend" (lyrics from a song, but oh so appropriate and applicable)
I'm also reminded of that movie "V for Vendetta"
Bin Laden is Goldstein
Parent raises a good point. Who modded it flamebait?
GP's post was an accurate statement of how many of us feel about Blair right now, it happens to be the majority view of Britain. It may be harsh the way he put it, but its accurate.
It may accurately reflect the view, but the view is wrong. Either the UK is a sovereign state (I'll ignore the EU for the moment), that made the decision to go to war and has to accept it's share of the guilt or it really is just a satellite state in an American hegemony - in which case people should stop complaining and have the UK become a full state of the US - that way instead of just complaining about US foreign policy, we'd actually have a say (after all, had the population of the UK had a vote in the US presidential elections, Bush would probably not be president).
Much as it might make for a great way to transfer guilt and shame, Bush did not just tell his lapdog what to do. Blair was in the military intervention business years before Bush even came to power, so I doubt he would have been anything but supportive. We have elections in this country, and yet Blair & co still were re-elected at the last election, which after the war started (and I somehow doubt the Americans had much to do with that).
Until people in the UK grow up and start taking responsibility for the actions of the government that we elected (and stop blaming America), the government will continue to take unpopular actions.
At some point, somewhere, the entire internet will be found to be illegal.
Fair enough question. I would say guns aren't going to "win the war", so to speak, but an armed populace definitely 1) keeps the government in check to hopefully prevent things from getting that bad (n the interim allowing the use of other means to change the system and root out corruption, like voting) and 2) give the people an edge they otherwise would not have against the government. My main argument though is that guns should not be illegal, certainly not in so-called free societies. Criminals will get them if they want them, legal or not, in any country that is remotely open. (Probably ain't happening in North Korea, for example, when the "cure", ie "no guns = no/less 'crime'", is worse than the disease.)
If petitions and elections would work there would be no need for desperate terrorism.
There is another e-petition.
Using the analog tv freq for HDTV , not selling them to the telcos. Might be more appropriate for the slashdot community. Anyone going to sign?
I'm just sayin'
Introduce ID cards in Baghdad then. If the mortars stop falling and the bombs stop going off we'll know we're onto a winner won't we? won't we?
No2ID, the leading anti-ID-Register campaign, have published a response to Blair's claims.
My country has national ID cards from WW2 as well. There is no privacy problem: the ID card is like a driving license or a passport.
I will go even further and say that even with biometrics, there is no issue about privacy as well.
ALL information should be available to everyone. Problem with a scheme such as this ID-card is that it empowers some institutions (like say banks or corporations) to have access to the data, but the man in the street hasn't got the same information available.
Yes, I'm left. You have a problem with that?
"Either the UK is a sovereign state (I'll ignore the EU for the moment), that made the decision to go to war and has to accept it's share of the guilt "
I'm sorry, when did I vote on that? I don't recall ever being asked!
On the other hand, I do recall Tony Blair taking us into war, knowing the evidence was falsified by Bush & Co. and that Iraq was not a threat to us. So I will not take my share of guilt for being lied to and not consulted.
"Until people in the UK grow up"
The little shit will go, or the people will remove him.
"and stop blaming America"
Not America, we stand shoulder to shoulder with the majority of Americans who want Bush impeached (according to the Time Magazine poll). We blame Bush & Blair and we represent the majority and in a democracy the majority view is the dominant one and democracy is to be defended.
Tony Blair, his ministers and probably everyone in the Home Office should subscribe to Cryptogram. In particular, they should read this article.
Even if all the petitions are rejected they still have value: Your prime minister has taken a stand on the issue and his opinion is in your mail box in writing. We (Finland) don't have any way of getting an opinion out of our prime minister at all.
In the news the politicians never comment on issues like this - we have an election coming and all I see is how everyone will magically give me more money if I vote them. The worthless press never ask politicians questions that the politicians actually have control over. Instead we get questions like: Will you give more money to starving college students? [YES] Will you sneak Finland in to NATO agaist the opinion of the population? [NO] Will you get more jubs for unemployed people? [YES]
So if the petitions are just a way of telling the polititians what the people are most concerned about and getting a response, it is still valuable. At least they cannot believably claim ignorance after that. Neither can they say that it was a decicion for someone else if they have commented on it.
What does this have to do with the Welfare state?
I think there's a belief that people living in a welfare state will put up with more crap from their government than people who depend less on their government.
There might be something to it - if the people constantly call on the government to solve all of societies problems, then the government is going to have an easier time getting more power.
But then there's the UK, where the welfare state has been mostly dismantled and replaced with a nanny state - so the government will tell you to eat your vegetables, but won't do much to help you pay for those vegetables if you can't afford them. But a nanny state still runs on people telling government to solve all of society's ills, so this leads to the government calling for greater powers - "we need to invade your privacy, but it's for your own good", which pretty much sums up Blair's email.
At some point, somewhere, the entire internet will be found to be illegal.
On that, I agree. Most things can become a deadly weapon (including the human body). Most "ban $THING" legislation I've seen in recent time I'd classify as reactionary, non-representative (often motivated by a highly vocal minority of victims of $THING and who therefore cannot be considered to have an objective viewpoint), and ill though-out. Unfortunately, it seems that responsibility for one's own actions is no longer in fashion at the Politburo.
Don't we already understand? I mean, I don't think they could be any clearer about their intentions (demands, desires, substitute your preferred word here) when they go bombing crowded places or knocking buildings down.
I'm not suggesting that they're the "good guys," just that they are at odds with much of the world not because of a lack of communication or understanding, but of capitulance, and I really don't think any amount of diplomacy is going to change that. They are not negotiating. They are demanding.
The "War on Terror," however, is a farce. Terrorism works because people allow themselves without reason to be terrified. If you took away the fear, terrorism would lose a lot of its effectiveness.
Personally, I suspect that to a rag-tag bunch of men running around in the desert, it's really not about how many of us they can kill. It's about reducing our quality of life. And they're doing an admirable job of that.
Not that I agree with Blair on this, though. Knowing who people are only goes so far. And biometric ID systems, as he claims, make it extremely difficult to fake your identity. The only remaining problem arises from the words "extremely difficult." It's not impossible. And once you DO have a new fake ID, it becomes impossible to identify who you really are. And if you should manage to successfully duplicate somebody else's biometric data, identity theft takes on a whole new meaning.
Blair already plans to misuse the data. Suddenly he regards a measure that was meant only to stop terrorists and illegal immigration as a means to solve every open crime of the last 50 years!
Compared to Tony Blair, Big Brother was a piker.
Some guy has already submitted a petition to reopen the "scrap Id card" petition. [ReopenIDpetition]
Each alcohol outlet would be equipped with a cheap, inexpensive standalone card reader that does no more than authenticate the card and illuminate a red or green light. To protect your privacy it should not be connected to any kind of computer or network so that nothing about what you buy can be recorded.
If every licensed premises in the UK had one of these then it would significantly reduce the instances of underage drinking and related juvenile crime.
I also believe that the National Identity Register will help police bring those guilty of serious crimes to justice. They will be able, for example, to compare the fingerprints found at the scene of some 900,000 unsolved crimes against the information held on the register. Another benefit from biometric technology will be to improve the flow of information between countries on the identity of offenders.
Firstly the 900k finger prints are of unidentified prints on a crime scene - so the actual number of unsolved crimes are lower
There is a lot of BS about the ID cards (i.e. to protect us from terrorists) - it is clear from the response that the _MAIN_ reason is to investigate the peoples of the UK
Yet again another liberty is gone....
Jaj
If it had anything to do with welfare he would say that he needs it so he can make sure that if anyone doesn't deserve welfare (namely, everybody who either works and therefore doesn't need it and everybody who doesn't work and therefore is too lazy to live) he doesn't receive it.
Umm, isn't that exactly one of the proposed "benefits" of the ID card - that it will reduce benefits fraud?
what is he going to do, shooting all tourists?
Not all tourists, only Brazilians.
At some point, somewhere, the entire internet will be found to be illegal.
What exactly is the difference between a terrorist from the 1970's with multiple ID's and a contemporary terrorist with multiple ID's that makes a national ID card so necessary now?
Slackware - because apt is for the lazy.
I hope the citizens of Great Britain will keep up the fight against the denizens of 10 Downing Street.
If petitions are to be run like this, the people will start using one-shot or limited-use throwaway email addresses to frustrate and block such unwanted intrusion and misinformation.
"June 2001. The year Labour were returned to power. And again in May, 2006. We don't get to vote for single issues."
Yes he's good a deceiving people, again, just because I was deceived does that make me culpable, or just gullible? If a con-man cons a victim, are they liable too? I don't think they are.
"Then how come it's so often called "Americas War, that we were dragged into"? "
Did I say that? Nope. I notice time and again people try to paint it as America vs the World, yet the majority of Americans are in my position, they were deceived into thinking Iraq was a threat, or had something to do with 911 when it was all a bunch of lies.
Ask the Iraqi resistance, or the IRA.
Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
One of the things I hate most about Tony Blair is the way he has appropriated "Prime Minister" as a title. It's an office, not a title. All previous Prime Ministers tended to just be called my their proper names ("the Prime Minister, Mrs Thatcher", "Mr Major", etc.). It really grates when I hear "Prime Minister Blair", it just completes the total aura of smugness that surrounds the man.
we want more control over the population, for your protection, because frankly, you cant think for your selfs, so we'll just have to do that for you.
You mean other countries have them as well?
That's a thought simply too horrible to contemplate...
Nobody else has this sig.
Part of the problem has to do with immigration
over here in the UK big businesses want cheap labour
and the best way to get it is via immigrants
since the Government is more interested in it's own economy rather than it's own people
it turns a bit of a blind eye to the incoming immigrants because it's good for the economy
This causes 2 problems
1. bad for local employment (polish builders anyone?)
2. lax rules that let anyone in, mean more of those darn pesky terrorists
but of course as a way to compensate, lets just get an ID card for everyone
stop the illegal's from claiming on the NHS, on the benefits etc
of course if we were more careful about who we let in, in the first place we wouldn't have this problem
one point of view (although it may be stretching a bit) is that we're indirectly supporting the companies that want cheap labour via the ID "tax"
the best one I read in the paper recently, was one of the approaches to improving the immigration service, from what I remember it was something like
"we're going to get them all shiny new uniforms to make them look more intimidating"
Well all i can say is if they still go ahead dispite the obvious outrage of the sane section of the public then its a choice of pay a hefty fine for refusing to tattoo the barcode on yourself or leave for a country not so intent on creating a big brother state. I know which one sounds more appealing. Is the government even aware that the cards have already been successfully cloned, and that the presence of the cards in Madrid did what? oh thats right no good, shit still hit the fan.
So I show a tendency to attend anti-Blair rallies. I suppose that'll flag me as a terrorist.
Meanwhile, real terrorists (the very, very few that actually exist) will lie low, meeting in areas where they *don't* use their ID cards, spending their moneys on tikka massala and otherwise proving how very British they are. Doesn't the government understand that profiling doesn't work? It distracts from the real indicator of a criminal: committing a crime.
And the instant somebody h4x0r5 the system, the system becomes obviously dangerous, rather than just dangerous.
I hope the US gets a system just like this. It seems Britain is trying to take our Stupidest Government In The World title.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
>>> And biometric ID systems, as he claims, make it extremely difficult to fake your identity.
Exactly. (i didn't want to use the music/HDDVD/Blueray analogy but here goes). No matter how much money they spend on this system, a determined terrorist group will find a way to nullify it.
These come to mind:
- The people that commit the acts of terrorism are exactly who their ID says they are.
- The terrorists assume the identity of someone who looks very similar to them, similar age, etc.
- One of the many Social engineering attack vectors, such as a terrorist managing to get a job in the DMV etc.
...since I imagine most people posting here are UK/Europe residents and already familiar with the UK's ID card debacle; the government has basically told us all we're getting biometric ID cards hooked into a national DB, at our own expense, whilst also costing the taxpayer billions in the contruction of the backend system. Despite general uproar from anyone who knows anything about privacy and/or implementing such things on a nationwide scale (not to mention the people pointing out the flaws in the proposed implementations), the government has basically steamrolled the whole thing through. This petition is yet another thing in a long line of criticism that has been judiciously ignored by the bods in power. There have been plenty of god-awful public investigations down by the government that usually go something along the lines of "would you support technology that would prevent terrorist attacks and stop paedophiles killing your children?", during which everyne answers "yes" so the gov can claim overwhelming public support for national ID cards. UK sites like The Register have been running stories on the ID card disaster-in-waiting for several years now (as I'm sure many of you are aware, UK government has a history of successive failures as far as implementing nationwide IT projects).
Democracy in action, I'm sure. Unfortunately a great mass of the uninformed public have been sufficiently brainwashed to believe that such an ID system will be as near to infallible as you can get, so it's going to take fairly herculean efforts to get other political parties to step away from implementing the same ID scheme. Ignorance is strength. Freedom is slavery.
In slightly related news, More4 (UK digital channel) showed a surprisingly watchable documentary on modern privacy and surveillance issues in a prog called Suspect Nation. I can't find any official sources so I'll reluctantly post a link to a torrent here. Well worth downloading to show to like-minded friends who aren't aware how pervasive some of this technology is.
Disclaimer: I am very much anti ID and even go to the bother of registering my Oyster card (RFID card used for travel on London transport which tracks every journey you make) under a false address, and always pay for them in cash. I've had some people brand me a bit of a conspiraloon, but you don't need to study much history before you find out it's a bad idea to give governments too much information and power, no matter how benevolent the intentions.
Moderation Total: -1 Troll, +3 Goat
"By May 2006, it was fairly obvious that lies were told."
So we're culpable because we didn't punish him quick enough? Even though kicking him out, wouldn't roll back time and undo the invasion? Yet somehow we (in 2006) are culpable for failing to act (in 2006) for a thing that happened in 2003?
Captain Picard logic at best.
"Britain was no more dragged into the war than America was dragged into it. "
They lied and they lied because the trust wouldn't get them *their* war. The British and American people were the people lied to, lied to by Tony Blair and George Bush.
Seeing as the majority of people often can't even be bothered to go out and vote, why would a government ever be scared by the people owning guns? Voting is an easy and generally safe thing to do. Overthrowing the government by force is a fairly active, high risk activity.
Guns are banned (in the UK - and even then, the ban isn't total) not because the government is scared by guns, they're banned because a large percentage of the population are scared by guns and they want the government to "do something about it".
At some point, somewhere, the entire internet will be found to be illegal.
That being said, I like the ID Card idea but I agree with most here that it is ripe for rampant abuse from the gov.
Mr. Blair, rights and freedoms cost, not just on the battlefields of our nations' wars, but in the daily lives of our citizens, and when we no longer have the strength to support our rights, when we become too cowardly to accept those costs, we can have no rights or freedoms.
How many British citizens are there today? And how many will there be over time? How many British citizens have died due to terrorism? A vanishingly small number in comparison. Rights and freedoms destroyed now from fear are deprived to all through time.
You may say that one life lost to terrorism is one too many. I say, no right or freedom can survive the save-the-last-life philosophy. A frenzied alteration of freedom and rights to save the last life or catch the last criminal will surely destroy those freedoms and rights, but it can never save every life, or destroy crime. Furthermore, the destruction of rights and freedoms by a government out of fear, frustration, or mere convenience is severely disrespectful of the those preceding generations who sacrificed so much personally to create those freedoms and rights. It proves a government faithless.
Mr. Blair, you disingenuously say that the information required for a national identification card is little more than that required for a department store card. Maybe true, but a department store does not have the force of a government behind its card. It has no police. It has no prisons. It has no chains. It has not the instruments of coercion, and correctly so. What a national ID card does is turn every citizen into a probable criminal who has to constantly present his "papers" to a representative of the government to prove he is not.
As an American citizen I'm concerned at what I've seen in recent years as a cowardly fear growing in Great Britain, a fear of your own rights and freedoms. I'm concerned because recently rights- and-freedoms-destroying mindsets are making their way across the Atlantic and infecting my own government. I know that government, naturally jealous of its citizens' rights and freedoms, constantly tries to gather them to itself, but, until recently, under cover of opposing terrorism, I've not seen so much success by government at doing so. A little "Battle of Britain" defiance of those who would steal freedoms would be much appreciated I think by many on this side of the Atlantic. We're watching.
E Proelio Veritas.
I suppose this is what the "10 Downing Street" E-Petitions site is all about: not only they know who you are (and probably where you live), but they can write back to you to tell you how good war, surveillance and tyranny really are.
I won't bore you with Tony's entire missive -- here are just a few interesting lines:
(my emphasis)
Last time I was offered a store card was at Marks and Spencer's. I accepted the offer (although I've never used it again) because it reduced the cost of the suit that I was buying. I don't remember having my fingerprints taken. Nor were my irises scanned. And, as far as I remember, they didn't threaten to put me in prison if I didn't accept it.
Practically every country in the EU has mandatory ID in one form or another and they have absolutely no issue with it. Like it or not, the UK is part of the EU and it's only logic that you islanders learn to adapt to the Continent which, hear hear, is bigger than you.
You can make all the fuss you want but in the end it will make no difference. You will get your IDs, you will adapt to them, you'll learn to live with it because YOU HAVE NO CHOICE. Your kids, if you ever have them, will know no world without ID.
Accept the inevitable, you can't do anything about it.
"We're culpable because we put them (Blair/Bush) into the positions of power in the first place. "
So in 2001, we failed to see 2 years into the future in our crystal balls, that Tony Blair and George W Bush would fabricate false evidence of an imminent threat from Iraq in order to bump us into a war?
That's the opposite of Star Trek logic, it's crystal ball logic, you or I could not foresee what these two liars would do years in the future.
"We're culpable, because even after it was shown that were liars we collectively put both of them back into power."
We're not culpable for the war, they are. Causality does not flow backwards in time. There were deceived and deceivers and I do not take blame for the actions of the deceivers, even if I had a piss poor choice in a later election.
This is not Star Trek and there are no wormholes for lying politicians to crawl into and rewrite history.
Does it seem perverse to anyone else that in an attempt to prevent violent attacks on the government and it's policies, the establishment has removed/invalidated the most popular form* of peaceful dissent?
When they laugh at the marches and bury the petitions, do you grab a firebomb or your ankles?
*researched and verified, believe it.
You need more psychedelic art in your life. rhesusmonkey.deviantart.com
"Terrorists routinely use multiple identities - up to 50 at a time. Indeed this is an essential part of the way they operate and is specifically taught at Al-Qaeda training camps. One in four criminals also uses a false identity. ID cards which contain biometric recognition details and which are linked to a National Identity Register will make this much more difficult"
So would locking us all in our houses, day and night. I think we all appreciate the need to effectively tackle terrorism and crime, but just because a measure helps with this, it doesn't unilaterally make it a 'good' thing. We need to find a good balance between civil liberties and dealing with crime, and I'm sure the UK security services will think the ID card helps with the latter, but who in the government is there to advocate for the former?
A referendum would allow the people to decide; the government is there to serve the people, and this issues seems to be one the people are sensitive about. As it happens, on the very same petition site, there is a petition for such a referendum:
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/IDreferendum/
The people may make the 'wrong' choice, but at least they will have made it; Democracy in action.
Tom Anthony
So many more people should read that book.
That is 1984 guys, if you think people are needlesdly paranoid about ID cards I suggest you read this book and then think again.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
So in 2001, we failed to see 2 years into the future in our crystal balls, that Tony Blair and George W Bush would fabricate false evidence of an imminent threat from Iraq in order to bump us into a war?
It doesn't matter that we didn't know what they were going to do, we are still responsible for their actions. The people are the ones who have the ultimate power (as we're the ones who put them in and out of office) and with that ultimate power comes (sorry for the Spiderman moment, but then you invoked Star Trek) ultimate responsibility. That whole "Government by the people, of the people, for the people" line that a lot of Americans are fond of, that's why we're collectively responsible - it's our government, we put them there. I sure as hell didn't personally put Blair into power, nor did the millions of people who didn't vote Labour, but we are all still partly responsible because the government are our representatives.
At some point, somewhere, the entire internet will be found to be illegal.
It seems the Bush and Blair governments have much in common these days. They create problems that THEY already have the solution to.
The US is working on a National ID system, because apparently, Illegals can get work. But that is by design, to help businesses lower wages.
How hard would it be, to create a system where you Social Security System was KNOWN, but you used a pass code to handshake with the government that YOU and only you are a person allowed to use it? If anyone gets the private pass code, you use your master code and create another one.
But Bush already has family investments in a solution provider. Like they have investments in Kaufman, who does much of the educational testing -- seems to be the only group that actually benefits from NO Child Left Behind.
And a lot of these "bad guys" have the blessings of the Governments -- they won't be hindered by the changes.
No the problem and the solution is all built along the idea that YOU are what our governments are worried about.-
>>"ad space available -- low rates!!!"
"It doesn't matter that we didn't know what they were going to do, we are still responsible for their actions."
Using my spidey senses I am able to tell, that your actions today in making excuses for their deception, and trying to shift the blame to us who were deceived, results in an invasion of Iran in 2008 and Saudi Arabia in 2012.
Please stop making excuses for that lying little shitbag in Number 10, and avoid that invasion in 2008 & 2012, because my spidey senses say it's the right thing to do.
Remember I've told you so, no making excuses. Oh and it will rain next week over Cheltenham on Tuesday morning.
Overwhelming numeric superiority combined with a reluctance on the part of the armed forces to fire on their own citizens. Throw in some guerrilla tactics and you've got the recipe for most civil outings in the last 50 years.
Look at the states that seceeded from Russia. Look at Afghanistan and Iraq today.
Right. Problem #1 for both the UK and the US is fixing the bent electoral system. Until you fix that, you won't get any substantial change.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
If you believe the Conservatives would save you, you're a fucking idiot with no memory of the 1990s.
Who instituted the Official Secrets Act provisions where people could be tried for a crime without even being told what the crime was? Where it became illegal for people involved in intelligence or security to speak publically, with no public interest defense possible?
Who initiated overt media censorship via the Prevention of Terrorism Act 1989? Who made it possible to arrest people for merely belonging to an organization, destroying freedom of association?
Who introduced the Public Order Act, controlling who could protest, when and how, in direct contravention of the European Convention on Human Rights? Who turned Downing Street into a gated community so people couldn't protest there?
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
Unfortunately the throwaway email address is no use as you also have to supply a valid uk home address to allow the signing of the petition to be completed. I agree with the other comments, why the hell was this marked flamebait
I mean, they wouldn't have put up with this in the Callahan government, and that was the last time they were in power, yes?
If labour staying in is definitely going to get us fucked, then if the conservatives fuck us, we've lost nothing.
That would explain why the government got rid of ID cards after WW2.
Oh no, wait, it wouldn't, and you're wrong.
By the way, the opposition is supposed to object to government measures, no matter what they are. Critical examination is essential to the process (although sadly does not always occur).
Can this really be counted on, viz. the Millgram experiment?
blair is incapable of listening to the british people. he was elected with the smallest minority in recent history because of the corrupt electoral system in the UK, and he has since completely ignored the opinions of his own party, and the country at large.
this response is typical blair - nasty right wing propaganda, backed up by no facts, and no substance.
Bliar should hold a referendum on this policy, and allow the people to decide, instead of arrogantly spouting this crap.
Dear Voters,
Fuck off.
Love and Hugs
Tone.
I googled to find any sort of UK "Bill of Rights", and so far the only item I found was the Human Rights Act 1998, which seems to not list much about privacy. I'm referring my comments based on skimming http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Rights_Act_(UK
In the wikipedia article, I see a mention of a case dealing with privacy but I don't see what section of the Human Rights Act privacy directly falls into. Naomi Campbell and Sara Cox both sought to assert their right to privacy under the act. Both cases were successful for the complainant (Campbell's on the second attempt)(Cox's attempt was not judicially decided but an out of court settlement was reached before the issue could be tested in court) and an amendment to British law to incorporate a provision for privacy is expected to be introduced. Can anyone give me some more insight?
666 - Cannot buy or sell without it, someday soon. Thank you Islam, Thank you terrorism.
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. - Benjamin Franklin" A wise man.........
"So... How do you intend to buy your porn, Mr. Blair? Do you ever pay for prostitues? No? We'll see when the new Biometric ID card comes out..."
please... let me sleep... a little more... yay, no longer annonmyous coward.
have 28,000 online volunteers for the program...Nice to see democracy working so well...
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
By far, the clearest answer to any question I've seen on here. Thanks a bunch!
Well, the ID cards sure will make that return to fascism all the easier.
Rounding people up in camps is a snap using modern technology.
Perhaps they can be zapped by high energy plasma into their sub-molecular atoms?
So much cleaner than the old gas method, and no bloody evidence laying around.
'Papers, Please...'
My question posed to the webchat here in advance:
One thing is certain: identity cards will be forged.
This will prevent the ID card scheme from having any preventative effect on the most serious crimes (because those with the intention to cause serious harm will undoutedly have the resources to procure forgeries).
The only remaining benefit of having a handy "ID" is nugatory because we already have such ID in the form of Birth Certificates, Driving Licences etc.
The multiple downsides of the system such as increased potential for serious abuse, impingements on civil liberties etc can only lead to the conclusion that ID cards are not merely unnecessary, but undesirable.
How do you respond to this?
Well, good can come from evil. Because an American soldier so callously shot down a British plane, Tony Blair has come up with an exit strategy for his part of the Iraq war and will tell it to his constituents. The UK could be out of Iraq by 2008--or at least half out of Iraq.
Or to put it another way--the UK might soon stop fighting "America's war."
There is a fine line between recklessness and courage... -- Paul McCartney
Hi
Just one of the best comments I have ever read on here.
I aslo have a post re Blair on traffic management (about to Cost us dearly)
Thanks
Bob
It Seems I've developed an aversion to proprietary software
> So long as Blair doesn't cock up the economy,
The national minimum wage is 5.35/hr, that's 42.80 a day. Last year the average house price increased by that amount every single day. When property inflation occurs on this scale it absolutely needs to be included in the inflation index. House prices have doubled in the past 5 years, wages have not.
It's either inflation or negative equity, there's no other option for the UK at this point. Brown could have acted sooner if he hadn't handed control of interest rates to the bank. We're sitting on a debt mountain, no aspiring homeowner can afford to get out of bed for less than 25,000/yr and that doesn't include the cost of starting a family. Our manufacturing base is gone and we rely on immigrant labour to keep our living costs under control. Meanwhile a pensions crisis is well underway and unemployment soars to 50% within our sprawling council estates. The joker in the deck is that a large percentage of homeowners borrowed money against the rising property market, using their homes as collateral.
Good God man, How can anyone not be aware of the scale of the inevitable economic disaster we face? In years to come we'll call this "Blairs legacy".
http://www.bristol-no2id.org.uk/blog/?page_id=5
Knowing that no-one in their right mind is going to want one an ID card, never mind pay for it, the Govt are secretly forcing passport applicants and renewers on to the ID surveillance train from the 26th March.
What will happen is that you will need to submit your bank details, your National Insurance number and your Driving License Number. These will be recorded on to the National Identity Register without you knowing.
Your NIR record will then cross-link into your tax records, benefits records, bank records and DVLA (car tracking records) thus creating one massive virtual database. This alone makes it the most intrusive database of all time, anywhere in the world.
It gives any future government a picture of who you are and what you're doing throughout the day.
Most of you will have no idea about other totalitarian laws passed by this Govt.
http://www.waronfreedom.net/
The next few govts could be much worse. If you have less than 8 years on your passport, I strongly recommend you renew early, asap.
http://www.renewforfreedom.org/
I hope this helps someone.
No it's not. Many issues get bipartisan support. Depending on how cynical you are, opposition will be somewhere between a bonna fide but ineffectual attempt at providing people with a means to have their will imposed on government, or an insidious way to provide the illusion of democracy to an effectively disempowered and enslaved population. This is /. so if you're not closer to the latter then you're out of place :P
I hate printers.