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No Wine for Dell Ubuntu Users, Says Shuttleworth
yuna49 writes "News from last week, but still worth noting: Mark Shuttleworth told eWeek in a May 3rd interview that Dell will not include open-source software such as Wine with the PCs it plans to bundle with Ubuntu Linux. Says Shuttleworth: 'I do not want to position Ubuntu and Linux as a cheap alternative to Windows ... While Linux is an alternative to Windows, it is not cheap Windows. Linux has its own strengths, and users should want it because of those strengths and not because it's a cheap copy of Windows ... Often we see proprietary software companies just completely fail to understand not only the motivations of the Linux community, but also the processes. It's very practical, there's a way to get things done, and it's different. The VMware guys have really engaged with us completely and worked to the agenda set by the Linux community, which is not an ideological agenda but a practical one.' Does that mean Wine won't even be listed in the package manager?"
Linux has its own strengths, and users should want it because of those strengths and not because it's a cheap copy of Windows
And one of those strengths is that you can still install WINE after you buy the computer despite the decisions made by a large company or single individual.
Um.. so it's not included? Big deal..
apt-get install wine
done...
What's the problem?
----- The internet has given everyone the ability to have their voice heard equally as loud.. even if they shouldn't be
Every time I read something about Mark Shuttleworth, I become just a little bit more of a fan.
While I have nothing against WINE—indeed, I use it myself for several things—I have to agree that it's just not right for distribution by a company like Dell. There's an art to getting it set up and configured, and while it's good, there are still a lot of applications that either don't work at all or don't quite work right in it.
This is a massive problem, and could seriously backfire on Ubuntu. If people buy a Dell machine with Ubuntu and WINE installed thinking that it will run Windows software, when something doesn't work right (and there will be things that don't work right), the average consumers will get mad at the wrong people: Ubuntu and WINE, not Microsoft. The focus will be on how Ubuntu sucks at running Windows software, not on how Ubuntu rocks at running Linux software.
I see here a golden opportunity for desktop Linux to make major inroads with the public and take a significant step towards advancing free open source software. I also see here a golden opportunity to destroy the reputation of desktop Linux as a viable alternative to Windows and give people the impression that free open source software really sucks. Don't you think for a second that Microsoft is going to be trying their damned best to see that Linux on Dell machines gives people a bad taste for open source software.
I have to give Mark Shuttleworth a pat on the back for seeing the big picture, for sacrificing trying to please everyone for the sake of making sure that this is done right, and that the software that people get is great, not just "it works good enough with a few hours of tweaking."
It's their choice, and I'm ok with it. Other distros also add or remove support for certain packages based on ideological positions (non free software, no binaries, stuff like that), so ubuntu and Dell can very well agree to do this to promote that way of considering GNU/Linux.
And besides, it's still ubuntu, so nothing prevents those who MUST have wine to add a rep to their sources.list and get it somewhere else.
"Luck is my middle name," said Rincewind, indistinctly. "Mind you, my first name is Bad." -- Terry Pratchett
Linux has its own strengths, and users SHOULD want it because of those strengths and not because it's a cheap copy of Windows
And men SHOULD give a fat girls a chance because of their personalities Don't tell the market what the market once, let consumers decide.
In order for them to control what apps are available, this makes me wonder if they are going to do a respository fork. So when you apt-get install it's not coming from ubuntu.com but ubuntu.dell.com or something like that. Will be interesting to see how it unfolds.
It's built on wine, they feed back into wine, and it allows me to run the few remaining software apps I need to that are only available for Windows. I also still run Microsoft Office under Crossover but am almost always now using OpenOffice instead. Using Crossover, I hardly ever boot into Windows any more (yeah, I am set up dual boot still...).
I dont see why Dell decides to do so, dont understand me wrong, I think it is a great thing they have decided to install Ubuntu, but why not with Wine. Since still lot's of software isnt available for Linux, like the popular World of Warcraft, Wine might solves these last bits for many users. I think Wine is good as an interim solution, but the time has come for many software developers including game developers that they also make a version for Linux. I am affraid that by not offering this interim option at this point in time on the dell machines, if developers have done their part of the migration, wine can be excluded again. Would Microsoft have anything to do with this?
No, he probably didn't want to include WINE because it will make Ubuntu bad because WINE is too hard for most novice users or a beginner to get working properly...if you make promises that it can run windows software to people, then you have to be able to be able to deliver on that.
In a world of acronyms, the words are the real victims.
Any Linuzzz distro can be obtained for free, so just, download the packages you need and... done.
It's time to realise that Abble's products are the biggest abomination these days. Just say NO to the dumb iAbble way!!
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I think we need a rule: "No Wine for Ubuntu users." That might make them less likely to think up names like "Breezy Badger" and "Dapper Drake". Although perhaps extend the rule to Beer, Liquor, and perhaps Shrooms as well?
Apology to Ubuntu forum.
it might be nice for people starting out, but it is never more than an apt-get away.
people can install it if they want it.
I haven't installed MS software on my computer for about seven years now. People ask me if I got MS Office working on it; it is the first thing they try when they install linux.
...
"I haven't tried it."
People find that awkward.
Also people often say that 'app X does not work the same as commercial product X'.
Sure, intercompatability is pushed from the open side because of demand. But
LINUX IS NOT WINDOWS!
People find that hard to understand.
I think this step by DELL + Ubuntu is a step in the right direction of bringing that understanding.
If you mod this up, your slashdot background will turn into a beautiful sunset!
it's because you haven't faced up to the reality: Wine isn't very good.
Sure you can make some programs work, sometimes. And sometimes when applications do work under Wine they act horribly, weird, strange, lots of font issues. It's not that the wine developers havent tried, it's just that emulating a Piece of Shit like Windows is nearly fucking impossible.. nobody can emulate the development hysteria that went into building windows. I don't fault the Wine devs, they tried mimic microsofts bullshit, but failed...
It's a work in progress, I know... but now Vista is out now.. and microsoft will release another POS of OS soon enough... they have no chance to keep up with the Redmond madness.
I've seen for a decade in my LUG what people go through when they try to use Linux as a 1:1 replacement for Windows. It's miserable. Linux should not be positioned as "like Windows but cheaper." (Especially since Dell's OEM deal with MS and crapware vendors means that a Linux system from Dell will probably cost exactly as much as a Windows system.) Mark S. is doing exactly the right thing here.
That said, I have the feeling that these things won't sell well at all. (Not that adding Wine would make much of a difference.) Be honest: what does Linux offer the average user that Windows doesn't? The main one is "won't get infected with crap."* That's great, but that's not enough. People have put up with crappy Windows systems for so long that they think it's normal to reinstall Windows periodically, or pay a neighborhood kid or local shop $50-150 to clean off the spyware every few months (if they even bother at all), and to buy a new computer every couple years when the one the old one gets slow. People are used to Windows. They fear change. "The devil you know is better than the devil you don't." We love Linux, but we know what's involved, and we understand what the million little differences are and why they're there. The rest of the world just thinks "this isn't working right." The result of all this is, Joe User will NOT be buying Ubuntu machines from Dell. Dell will sell a few, but not many, and there's a very good chance this program will be axed within 6-12 months.
* OS X offers this same benefit, plus it has the great iLife suite, gorgeous hardware, and unbeatable hardware/software integration. Not perfect, but miles ahead of anything else. That is a compelling reason to change, and I've seen a few people go from Windows to Mac, but even so, Windows has 90%+ share and will continue to dominate for quite a while.
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
I wonder how this will affect Speech Recognition on Ubunto. There are some people on the Ubunto Speech Recognition page ( https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SpeechRecognition ) who believe that, from an accessibility perspective, Dragon Naturally Speaking on Wine is the only option available.
Donate Your Speech
"Does that mean Wine won't even be listed in the package manager?"
Not by default (have not tried Ubuntu 7.04 yet). You have to visit http://www.winehq.com/, browse to the download section and follow the directions to add the WineHQ APT Repository to your system's list of download sources.
This is not exactly what a newbie might expect, but since WINE is still "early beta" quality, I would not recommend it anyway for people who dislike tinkering with the system. As WINE gets more mature, I expect that it will be officially included into the Ubuntu distribution at some point.
C - the footgun of programming languages
WINE isn't even in a default Ubuntu install. With or without Dell, Ubuntu does not ship with WINE. It never has. I hope it never does.
One gripe I have with the community is that we tend to oversell WINE. Even though the WINE team have made a lot of progress lately, I still find WINE to be an imperfect solution, at best. Knowledgeable users know this. But the community insists on preaching WINE to every Windows convert. This is counterproductive.
Rabid WINE advocacy builds unreasonably high expectations of 100% compatibility. This is not yet possible, and it is debatable whether this will ever be possible. New users don't appreciate the difficulty in the project, though. All they know is that NIFTY.EXE won't run. They resent the fact that they've been given "Broken Windows," rather than a "real OS."
This is not to say that I'm against the WINE project at all. Quite the contrary: the compatibility layer gives the Linux community an extra tool. But I cringe every time I see people treating WINE as some sort of panacea, rather than using it correctly as a tool of last resort.
Ahh, a package manager douche. I should do that to my machine every now and again. I know I leave some dependencies sitting out there when I remove some packages. Could be good for the old hard drive :-)
My Babylon
I think the real fear is people who will assume "zomg!!11 teh linux + wine = windowz0rz!!~~", and will then attempt to install all their windows apps on Linux. Then when things don't go so well they will say "linux sux".
If the bloat isn't enough to make you sick, just imagine: Bonzi Buddy on Linux.
If girls liked guys that were interested in them for their brains, they'd date zombies.
I completely agree with their decision. If you want Windows, buy Windows.
Linux needs to stand on its own merits. Running Linux to use your Windows apps would make Dell and Linux look bad by giving a bad user experience.
Wine as a Windows replacement is hard to set up, largely incompatible and the wrong solution for more than one or two applications.
Let Linux have a fair chance on the desktop without false expectations of running Windows applications. If that's not enough, then Linux isn't ready for mass market adoption.
If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. - James Madison
Is WINE an amazing piece of OS software? Yes.
Does WINE work for many applications? Yes.
Is it very unfriendly? Yes, it is . Try configuring its windows colors...
Is it unable to run the windows apps that actually make windows important? Yes, it cannot run 3dsmax, it cannot run latest photoshop, it virtually can't run any of he latest versions of the actually important windows apps, or it doesn't do it correctly. I know that the apps themselves are to blame here, they should actually try getting a cross platform framework, I just don't get it why would they do stuff for windows only when they could embrace more market, seriously.
There's a lot for WINE to become mainstream, for once it should get integration with gnome or KDE so it shares their color scheme, which is possible to do manually, and not
Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
Good. Windows compatibility is one of the things that killed OS/2.
I'm a huge wine fan. I spend several hours a day
doing Wine QA/triage, have some code in Wine myself,
and have helped release a commercial app using Wine. And although
I initially cringed when I saw that announcement,
I do think Mark's right, at least for now.
Wine can't run most Adobe apps without
fiddling (see http://wiki.winehq.org/AdobeApps ),
nor can it run the latest iTunes. Yet.
When it can, it'll be time for Mark to reevaluate.
Hopefully that'll be before the next release of Ubuntu...
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
...what Mark Shuttleworth is going through right now -- there's no telling the veiled threats that are starting to come in from Microsoft
If you ask me, this seems like a move designed to (hopefully) not piss Microsoft off, and get them to leave Ubuntu alone for a little while, at least.
It is by my will alone my thoughts acquire motion; it is by the juice of the coffee bean that the thoughts acquire speed
1) Alsa package without alsaconf! What if the soundcard configuration during instalation fails?
2) Runlevels 2,3,4,5 are the same! What if the video configuration fails? Ubuntu gives me a window of 3 minutes or so to edit xorg.conf! I should be in control of my own computer, if I want runlevel 5 or 3 I say telinit 5 or 3!. Runlevels 2,3,4,5 MUST be differtent!
Execept for ununtu/kubuntu/edubuntu almost all linux distros haave alsaconf and runlevels 1-6. Why does Mark have these strange ideas?
Unless you want to run notepad.exe or calc.exe. Everytime I try to use it for something cool (games), it's just not quite there yet. I do not mean to detract from Wine's accomplishments - they've bee astounding and commendable. The devs have really crossed some great divides to get Wine where it is today. The task at hand, if the goal is to provide 100% redmond compatibility, is insurmountable IMO, but they will probably do it someday.
boycott slashdot February 10th - 17th check out: altSlashdot.org
Shuttleworth is talking arse.
/might/ know what Linux is but he sure as hell won't know what Wine is.
People install Linux because they want to run Linux. Not because they want cheap Windows. People who want cheap Windows will just pirate it. Joe six-pack,
Linux is not a "cheap" way of running Windows software because, quite frankly, it doesn't do it all that well. Some apps work acceptably but many do not. Games in particular spring to mind.
Wine is not difficult to install, there will be packages. Even if it is, anyone who seriously wants to run Windows apps within Linux will use Crossover Office and that has a Loki installer.
So:
a. Shuttleworth is just being a prick.
b. Even if he doesn't bundle Wine: who cares. Anyone who knows enough to want it will be able to install it.
Is not a copy of Windows required for WINE to function? Its been ages since I last tried this permanently-alpha software (I've been using 64-bit CPUs for the last two years), but from what I remember, WINE's own versions of the standard DLLs are not really usably for anything beyond Notepad and Minesweeper.
If this is still true, than Linux will be a slightly-more-expensive version of Windows — if you must run a Windows app or two for some reason, and Mr. Shuttleworth's real concerns are something else...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
I don't believe you. There are many African languages and I don't know them all, but Ubuntu means what should have happened to Bill Gates in the African languages I do know. Not Pretty, believe me.
How many beans make five, anyhow ?
to reverse engineer anything.
When WINE gets good enough, they'll get sued out of existence.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
I've been running Ubuntu for some time now, I have even "spread the word" my installing it on a few poor students laptops when there windows installation has died and I couldn't be bothered to find the windows drivers for the laptops hardware. Most of the people I have installed Ubuntu for are happy with it right out of the box, once i've added Medibuntu so that it can play DVD's ofc.
However I personally like to play a few Windows games like Half-Life 2, World of Warcraft and Counter Strike and in order to do so i've had to "apt-get install wine". So I don't see how dell not including wine on the machines is a big deal, as it doesn't make there distribution any different from "plain" Ubuntu.
Dell are quite right not to install wine out of the box, as a user who can not "apt-get install wine" or if they have there own partial Dellbuntu mirror, adding the real Ubuntu software sources to apt, will have pretty limited luck getting it working anyway.
What I would find interesting is dell including a way to play copy protected dvd's out of the box, as to be that seems to be the one real problem with a default Ubuntu installation that people are likely to notice.
No wine for Dell users is actually a good Open-Source move so people wouldn't think they moved to Linux just as a replacement.
I have a dream! I have a dream, that one day, Linux users will be more then 50% of the people who use computers
I have a dream that people will not use Linux as a user-friendly OS, but actually use it's command-line, and learn how to use it to improve their performance.
I have a dream, that every new Windows user that had moved to Linux, would not connect to X as ROOT, and actually use the multi-user management like Linux was designed (unix-based).
I have many dreams though, with your help, it's possible. I know I do try to get more people to install Linux and use it correctly.
Spread the dreams!
Read and Comment at my BLOG
!!!
Dammit should review my posts first, d-oh!!!
Imagine average joe user calling Dell because [insert Windows app] doesn't work in wine. Dell doesn't want that.
Check out my lame java blog at www.javachopshop.com
aptitude install wine
Microsoft can make money off Dell Ubuntu when customers use vmware to run Windows XP and/or Vista as guest OS.
And including Wine would've killed the deal because it screws Microsoft. Meaning, no Dell Ubuntu. But not selling Dell Ubuntu would've been hard to explain by Dell because of the public demand which already received press coverage.
Thus, a compromise was reached and a semi-bullshit reason was given to the public to avoid a massive PR headache which could harm both Dell and Microsoft.
Decisions like including Ubuntu cannot be made without considering Microsoft's reaction if:
1. you sell PC's
2. you bundle Microsoft OS on most of your PC's
3. you have a bunch of competitors selling PC's with Microsoft OS
4. you need to be profitable
5. you need to answer to shareholders
6. customers demand Ubuntu
7. pissing off Microsoft might lead to higher cost for 99% of your PC's
etc...
Answer: bundle Ubuntu, exclude Wine, promote/advertise using vmware. Microsoft is very annoyed rather than supremely pissed because they charge more for retail copies of their OS which vmware requires.
All of this is just a wild guess on my part.
Linux users prefer beer.
Some settling may occur during posting.
The DMCA doesn't make reverse engineering illegal. It "criminalizes production and dissemination of technology, devices, or services that are used to circumvent measures that control access to copyrighted works (commonly known as DRM) and criminalizes the act of circumventing an access control, even when there is no infringement of copyright itself."
This wouldn't apply to reverse engineering software APIs at all, except perhaps an API that is used to decrypt DRM implementations.
The DMCA is very, very, very, very, very, very, very evil for many, many, many, many, many, many, many reasons. This just happens to not be one of them.
However, Microsoft does have patents on trivial and obvious things that hinder WINE developers. Those should be fought vigorously.
No you don't need a copy of Windows. The whole point of the WINE project is to develop a reimplementation of the Windows API without any M$ code in it. You CAN use official MS DLL's with Wine if the Wine implementations aren't up to scratch, in that case you need a Windows license.
Wine's own code is improving remarkably quickly, especially the DX side of things which is now mostly implemented up to DX9 and DX10 is being started as part of the Google Summer of Code. Yeh most things need tweaking and some things don't work, but its definitely improving. Each Wine update more of my Windows games work.
If anyone knows any C it is really worth taking a look at the Wine code, its really quite impressive what they have achieved and to get an idea of how fast development is going take a look at the Wine changelog or sign up to the mailing list.
Regarding the decision not to include Wine with Ubuntu, its a good call. Distributing Wine which is STILL alpha (and will be for a long long time) can only damage the reputation of Linux when desktop users can't run their Windows apps. This is no different than a standard Ubuntu install though and I very much doubt that there are gonna be specific DELL repositories (as has been mentioned in this discussion) or anything like that, it would just fragment the Ubuntu community into Dell users and normal Ubuntu users and ruin a whole load of HowTo's and FAQ's and make support more difficult.
KDE in Kubuntu is non-standard and crippled, they made arbitrary changes. For example in all KDE distros, execept kubuntu it is possible to open a terminal from a konqueror window directly in that directory. For example if in Konqueror you are in /usr/local/share/bili/kumu/wdg/, you can open a terminal directly in /usr/local/share/bili/kumu/wdg/, you don't have tgo navigate the filesystem to get there. This feature goes back to KDE 2 or even 1; why did Kubuntu people have to remove it? For Mark's gratification or what?. Besides, Kubuntu's KDE is estethically displeasing.
--
make install -not war
I'll probably be marked as a troll for this, but I have karma to burn.
The secret is that Wine sucks.
Really, it does. It's worth the effort put into it, though, and it's getting better, but it still sucks. There are a few things that work on it really well, and almost everything else is terribly handicapped.
I guess what I really should say is "wine sucks...to use". As I said, though, it's worth all the development effort being put into it, because some day, it's going to be very usable, and I can't wait on that day. The main issue is that it keeps trying to hit a moving target. Right now, we can reliably run almost everything that ran on Windows 98. We're multiple Windows releases behind. In 1998, we could run stuff made for Windows 3.1. Maybe in 10 years, we'll be able to run all the XP/Vista stuff. Who knows what Windows will be released by then.
Whenever Windows slows down their development and it finds a plateau, then Wine can be a good solution. Until then, it's fighting an uphill battle, just because it has to try to keep up.
Check out my sysadmin blog!
WINE isn't very good at running the latest and greatest (bloated) version of AutoCAD, but it runs most small applications very well. For example, I just installed a new version of a small concrete and masonry design app last week. Straight from the installer, everything worked, from the calculations, right down to the correct menu items being placed and all of the reports printing. I agree with Mark Shuttleworth about not making WINE part of the default install, but don't say the project is worthless. For people who need a to run small, packaged windows applications it's great.
Apparently my learned friend is in the stone age of package management :-P
aptitude keeps track of when it installs a package to satisfy a dependency and then uninstalls it when it is no longer needed to satisfy any dependencies. If you want to install a library for a non package managed program (e.g. you want to compile the latest wine) you can just use apt-get which doesn't mark them for removal when they're not depended on.
HTH
Cheers & God bless
Sam "SammyTheSnake" Penny
You can bet that Dell is going to license a lot of non-free codecs, and create a Dell non-free crap repo that won't bug you when you install it. It'll still be cheaper than Windows.
Please stop stalking me, bro.
And thus is the problem with too much experimental cruft built from source... thus is the life of a tinkerer. :)
My Babylon
I am an ex-windows-power-user, using exclusively Ubuntu on the desktop for about 6 months now for academic, home, and media center purposes. I might be in the market for a new Dell laptop with Ubuntu- except Ubuntu runs great on my old Pentium M laptop. Even compiz runs great on an intel 915. The only app I have ever successfully run under wine is Picasa, and someone else did all the work to make that fairly painless. It still sucks (colors, themes, file paths...)- Linux is not windows and should not try to be windows. With Ubuntu all the apps I've needed are there under System -> Administration -> Synaptic Package Manager: OpenOffice, Bibus, Inkscape, Scribus GIMP, Gnumeric, R... it all works and it is so refreshingly free of crass commercialism. No free trial versions with upgrade-offer popups, no ads, no need for spyware/virus software, my printer/camera/scanner software doesn't interrupt presentations asking for upgrades anymore. I can plug in an external hard drive and not wait while windows scans the whole thing for media files. The user is in control and that is the way it should be.
Wine doesn't run every Windows program. If it was installed it would have to be supported and that would be a nightmare and cost a big pile of money.
If Wine was perfect you bet your bottom dollar that it would in installed by default.
Sorry but this is nothing but a good business decision based on support costs and customer headaches and nothing more.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
The reason to buy a Dell with Ubuntu pre-installed is not Windows related at all. It's all about hardware. A Dell desktop or notebook PC with Ubuntu pre-installed should work out of the box. The stuff we fight with any Linux distro, wireless drivers (although that's gotten much better with Feisty), suspend / hibernate not working, etc should not be an issue with the Dells.
My wife's XP box is 6+ years old, so I'm expecting it to die soon. She doesn't do anything on it that requires Windows, so her next computer will have Ubuntu on it. I wouldn't hesitate to buy one of the Dells. The market for these (at least initially) is not newbies looking for their first Linux box, it's people that are already at least a little Linux savvy that want a new box with minimum hassle involved.
Today Linux has much better hardware support than Intel MacOSX, it can be installed on almost any intel machine. On the other hand installing MacOSX on no brand, regular AMD/Intel hardware is much more complicated, it reminds me of installing linux 12-14 years ago (those were glorious times!). Dspite semthex and others efforts the odds of succeeding are rather slim, I'd say one in ten.The efforts are worthwile, if you succedd wou end up with a 2 pound Sony or Fujitsu laptop runnnig MacOSX. Apple will NEVER make laptops that light, they do not know how to do it (they are no Japansese)
Try apt-get autoremove. Works like a charm.
Why is it that when you believe something it's an opinion, but when I believe something it's a manifesto?
That said, I have the feeling that these things won't sell well at all.
Bingo.
What makes this work this time is Mr. Shuttleworth has deep pockets and is the business-end of a buggy Linux distro. Both are requirements with money being the key factor in getting a meeting at Dell in the first place. Other long-time distro maintainers would never get the consideration that Shuttleworth gets. That's true for most people and businesses though...
Fast-forward 12 months at Dell and this is what you will find:
You can get Ubuntu, but it won't be a clear choice on the consumer side. If we are really lucky, it will be a not-obvious URL on the business side. Cost-wise it will cost much more than a Windows machine. The economics of Dell's business pretty much mandates that.
Fast-forward 24 months and Linux sales will be good for institutional sales, but consumers and small businesses will be practically zero. But Dell needs alternatives.
Finally, what concerns me most is we're now getting into a speeds-and-feeds business mentality where there will be good market research quantifying Linux-based OS penetration. This will simultaneously thin the distro herd, and give Microsoft's investors the information to force Microsoft to halt the spread of Linux-based OS distros that threaten their monopoly.
The less investors know about Linux the better. The more and varied distros that are out there without PHB's being able to quantify the better for all of us.
Got Trader Joe's? friendwich.com RSS feeds work now!
Pretty sure this is just Dell covering their ass, so as not to piss off Microsoft causing them to yank their licensing deals.
I think this is sorta like saying, effectively, that the new Dells won't ship with memory maxed out.... This doesn't preclude the consumer from maxing out memory after purchase, but Dell won't put the extra memory in there.
(crud... ignore the [ stuff in brackets ] )
The Admin and the Engineer
I don't believe that the package manager will not show wine, because there's the same repository as every ubuntu users... And if you want wine then you can put the regular Ubuntu repo. I don't see the problem...
ghostbar page.
There is a market for this, many hobbists want MacOSX installed on ultralight Japanese or Korean laptops and they'd rather do it legally if that would be possible. I'd say up to 100,000 people worldwide would buy it. Apple could make money of that without endangering their main business if they enforce the following conditions:
1) The hobbist, generic version of MacOSX is sold without support or any warranty (tt should be cheaper than regular MacOSX, I'd pay say up to $80-90, no more)
2) Installation for resale should be ABSOLUTELY FORBIDDEN.
I have to agree with Mark on this one.
..... teaching a cat to bark will ultimately be a disappointing exercise. If your heart is dead set on something that barks, go and buy a dog. If you go for a cat, appreciate it for its felinity. Embrace the fact that it's not a dog, and enjoy how it can do things dogs can't do. It's really quite rare for anyone actually to need a cat with the ability to bark; most of the time you could get by with not barking, or borrow a real dog.
WINE isn't always easy to configure. I tried it once, didn't get very far, thought "sod it" and looked to native Linux applications instead. And I have to say, they've improved with every version I've tried. (In all probability, so has WINE, so you may have a better experience than I did).
The thing is
Also, what we tend to think of as "native Linux applications" can usually be persuaded to compile and run under Windows precisely because they are Open Source. (Windows applications probably could be got to compile and run under Linux -- if we only had the Source Code. But you don't very often see an Open Source project that started development on Windows and got ported to Mac and Linux -- usually, they start out being developed on Linux or BSD and get ported to Windows. I think that speaks volumes about the mentality of Windows developers.) Firefox/Thunderbird, OpenOffice.org, Gaim and Audacity probably would meet the requirements of 90% of Dell's customers, and of course are potentially available on both platforms. But Microsoft won't be happy at the thought of something taking marketshare from Outlook and Office; and I'm not sure the various advert-pushing IM networks are entirely thrilled about Gaim.
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
I have tried several times to install Windows XP on my new Core 2 Duo machine (Intel DG965WH mainboard) with different BIOS settings and even newer versions of the BIOS, but it keeps locking up hard early in the installation process. Linux runs great through, and WINE handles the games I like to play (Warcraft III and Oblivion) just fine. Although Windows XP simply fails to install on my machine, I can still play my favorite games on my new machine because of WINE.
Well, the PC Decrapifyer makes short shrift of it: http://www.yorkspace.com/2006/08/62
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
that they fix the bug where you can't disconnect USB drives in Feisty using unmount or eject. Otherwise end users will get the impression that Mark is trying to avoid: that is Ubuntu will look like a cheap Windows.... https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-vo lume-manager/+bug/63090
One key comment that Mark makes in the interview is that he is for free software. By this I assume he means obtaining software development services for free (as opposed to support). I think all these debates about open source vs proprietary fail to see the big picture in sufficient detail. Let's think about this. The laws of economics and jurisprudence have not changed. What does a desire for free software really mean then? From a developer's standpoint, one implication is that a software developer's services have little value. Or perhaps it means the specific software under discussion has little value. Hmmm...that's definitely something to ponder. If it has little value then why bother with it anyway? But he was talking about software in a general sense so could that mean he's aiming for a situation in which all software has little value? Clearly software has value, particularly in new areas. Unfortunately technology by its very definition means change and while certain groups of developers are slapping themselves on the back for a job well done, the carpet is shifting as I type to a different direction.
So what exactly does he mean? We're in the software development business which requires defining things a bit more precisely kinda like in mathematics or law. Perhaps he means there is value in software and a developer's services, but the person who created it or provided those services will not be compensated. That's ok if that's what the provider intended. If not, it's unfair. If that's what the provider intended, then let's look into that provider with the added assumption that Shuttleworth is trying to create a top system. The individual provider of software development services is saying I am a software developer and I am giving away value for free. Then where is that value coming from? Perhaps someone is paying him or her for those services rendered elsewhere in sufficient amounts to allow him or her some downtime to give away software services of value. Or perhaps software development is just a hobby for the provider and he or she earns a living doing something else. That's all ok unless the developer's main employer isn't being shortchanged which is unfair. Perhaps he or she really believes there is little value in his or her software developing skills, which is a sad case. But how can that mode of working produce this top system on par with systems in which the developers are giving their all day in and day out? Software development regardless of open source or not can be hard to do and can take a lot of time to do right, especially when defining standards. Defining technology standards involves the subject of how humans with differing objectives communicate with each other at a basic level and that has not changed so we'll leave that to a different discussion. Suffice to say that time and time again folks who concentrate power have used this point splendidly. In fact, my prediction is that in the future all this massive communication mishaps occuring these days will quite naturally lead to the creation of a technology monopoly with an even stronger hold than Microsoft (maybe even an off-shoot of Microsoft like those feisty Standard Oil offshoots that are still shouting today, who knows). But, like I said, let's leave that discussion to a different day.
We can go on and on with this kind of analysis, but at the end I feel the conclusion from his goal is that (a) either software of inferior sustainable value is produced, (b) there has been too much value assigned to that particular line of software development in the marketplace, or (c) there is such massive altruism in the developer community to give so much software development value away for free. Let's leave (c) to a different discussion - I wish it's true but I'm not convinced of its sustainability. In (a) the system will not succeed in the market and we see this clearly on the desktop. The PC is basically a mass communication device and unless Ubuntu works very well with Microsoft file formats then forget it no matter how much it is d
you mean, like, duke nukem forever?
E: Could not open lock file
E: Unable to lock the administration directory (/var/lib/dpkg/), are you root?
(I can fix this but an average new user will have no idea)
Wine is one of the most important projects for Linux. The fact that a small project like Wine can run a big number of Windows software is just amazing. However, Wine has a bad reputation among Linux geeks who really don't understand how the world of the end user works.
I have used Linux for more than 10 years. I have never used anything else as a server. I am working at a company that produces software for Windows. That's what we do because our clients have always used Windows. However, we've been also keeping our options open by trying to tie our software as little as possible to Windows. So, a Linux version is possible. It's hard work but it's possible. It could be made in a few months, when the time is ripe.
We have 4000 clients who use Windows and only a few who ask for a Linux version. The demand is not high enough to warrant a native Linux version. Instead of porting, we concentrate on other features our clients want. There can't be more demand for a Linux version as our customers can't use Linux. They really DO need our software. There are NO alternatives whatsoever. There can't be other alternatives as it's not economically viable.
Our situation is not unique. There are hundreds of thousands of small software companies who only have Windows versions of their products. And tens of millions of people who depend on them every day.
What Wine brings is a possibility to even consider using Linux. We've started supporting Wine with our software. Thanks to that a few clients have started using LTSP. They are happy with the solution and that will slowly increate the usage of Linux among our customers. And when there are enough users, we'll have a possibility to start support a native Linux-version. But until then, Wine keeps our customers happy.
Bottom line is: Native Linux-versions of software is important but they can only be done when there is enough demand for Linux software.
It's not very hard to imagine. I can even give you a simple scenario. Joe-bob wants a program to do something. If we're lucky, he looks at what programs are visible in the Applications Menu, and finds it. We're not; the function he wants isn't installed by default. But fortunately Joe-bob remembers a program he used often in windows. So he does what windows users do whenever they need more software: he downloads the program off the internet, and runs the installer.
.exe and mime type and decides WINE should be launched. Which works reasonably well for most software. Except installers. Installshield is a real bitch and won't work without copying files from the Windows partition he doesn't have on his Dell machine. Suddenly, in a very real sense, all these projects with the "well you need a Windows license to use this, but who doesn't have one?" clause have a solid counter-example.
At this point GNOME detects the
Anyways, the installer crashes, and Dell gets another call asking why his software doesn't work, when X Y and Z do. The obvious answer (why should Windows programs work in Linux any more than Mac programs?) is sad, but any better solution requires the sort of Apple like Reality Distortion Field coupled with mac user like Devotion to work. WINE is not parallels (at least in quality). It's still great software that I'm amazed by more and more every month, but I wouldn't put it on laptops sold if I was Dell. Not without the sort of unrecoverable investment Dell is unlikely to make.
In summary, if you provide WINE, you'd better put your money where your mouth is and make it damn near flawless. If you don't provide WINE, you'd probably still need to educate switchers. But I don't expect any "CIS 101: Introduction to the Linux Desktop" classes any time soon.
I Browse at +4 Flamebait
Open Source Sysadmin
That's the same reason why I'd buy a Dell w/Ubuntu pre-installed. I'd simply too busy to deal with driver/hardware/install issues. I love my Linux box, but it's now pretty old (built and rebuilt over and over again since 99... currently running Mepis 10/2003). I don't really want to go through an install again, and I don't want to have to deal with picking the right hardware for an upgrade.
-Cnik
All that were tested in magazines that I read about were configured badly (you still had to do some stuff to get everything to work) and the modem never worked. Apart from the modem often times other things didn't work either. I hope Dell is different.
I think that with this decision Canonical is saying that Windows applications are not supported in any way, although you can install wine and try to run them. But then, you are on your own.
No big deal, however.
Wine is actually beta._ After_12_Years/1130338797
see for instance http://www.betanews.com/article/Wine_Reaches_Beta
I have been using Linux exclusively at home for the past 8 years and have found that it's often easier to just find a native Linux program to do most tasks than it is to do with Wine. If some Windows application exists for which there is no Linux alternative I find a real Windows installation to be more practical. I am happier using VM Ware to run my company's (for me free) software than I could ever be struggling with Wine. I do not mean to knock Wine because it does have a lot of good uses, but when trying to help other [new] users with linux, the last thing I want for them to see are their favourate Windows programs running like crap and crashing more than they would under "real Windows". That type of experience can only cause new users to believe that "linux sucks" and drive them away from it. For this very reason I think it's best to not have Wine installed by default. Linux isn't Windows and it's best to keep it that way. If someone really wants Wine bad enough and knows what they are doing, then there would surely be nothing to stop them from installing it.
i run an amd 64 dual core FX60 and i have wine running running nicely on ubuntu.
the programs i use it for are pretty complex and very useful, too. when the linux version come out, i'll switch to the linux version of the programs.
"Wine is a great application, but windows software with a few exceptions is never going to run as well as it would on the Windows OS."
That's not quite right. WINE actually has the opportunity to run Windows software better than the original OS, as it's not an emulator, but an implementation of work-alike APIs. I've found some programs that don't have native issues from Windows when they're run on Linux with the WINE API stack. These are mostly games, as I don't have much use for any of the other software from Windows.You're reading Slashdot. Of course you like Linux and pc hardware
I don't disagree with Dell/Shuttleworth's decision to not provide WINE by default.p installed in my Fedora box.
But WINE is not just for end users. Developer's also use it as a bridge to help port Windows applications to Linux.
For example I have an AutoCAD replacement http://www.bricscad.com/download/B4L_certified.js
You don't need to know how to configure WINE at all for it to work.
Honestly, I think that the decision to not include WINE in the Dell-packaged Ubuntu install is a great idea. As many pointed out already, WINE is really a crapshoot application (at least in my experience). Some applications will work wonderfully (like Internet Explorer or Winamp), while others will not work at all (Microsoft Office, Photoshop, etc). I'm sure that if the application were more mature and had support for most applications, then it would be valuable to include it (and charge for it as well).
Plus, it's not like the option to install it disappears when you get a Linuxed Dell. There are still repos and other outlets that will make the software available, so it's really just up to the user as to whether he wants to try it or not. Then again, in a couple of months or years time when more people unfamiliar to the Linux platform start purchasing these laptops, there is a very small possibility that they would have an interest in using it as supposed to, say, VMWare (free).
On top of THAT, Ubuntu doesn't even install WINE by default so this is a non-issue to begin with.
That sales in France won't be as high as usual. ;-)
The decision to market Unix(specific distro aside) as a separate OS entirely is the right one.
Windows. Check.
Mac. Check.
Ubuntu. Check.
This reminds me of a decade ago when you had Atari, Amiga, and a few other 16 bit computers all competing. All having strengths and weaknesses.
"Oh look - here's a box that can run Windows junk for les money" completely misses the point. Dell is right to stick to their guns on this one.
are you new? obviously not. unless you think dell is going to maintain their own version of ubuntu. which they won't.
Only if it operates within the US (there are probably people for a lot of places working on it now, even US, so it'll have a hit). And only the forks created there.
Rethinking email
I have been saying this about Wine for a couple years now. That and Cedega. Not to diminish the ability of the people who write this stuff, but it seems like a time sink project to me.
The average person is going to say "Well I need Office on Windows." Some Linux zealot will say "Just install WINE!" The average person will blink twice and go "Or I could save myself some fucking time and use Windows."
Even if they did switch they STILL use MS Office, which some zealots I know (casually thankfully) seem ok with, but yet bash MS.
Also, consider this. You install Linux but intend on using Windows apps. Ideally you have a Linux native app. However you just bought a Windows native one, which tells that company there is no market for Linux native apps. How does it that further "the cause?"
Why not write software that fills the gaps that keep people on Linux. That's what will make MS shit themselves.
No sig for you!!
Naah.. just slap an addendum on the license "Not for sale or use in the USA and its vassal states" Oops.. that includes us. Never mind..
To be, or not to be: isn't that quite logical, Slashdot Beta?
Obviously techies can just apt-get WINE, and semi-techies can just go to the website and download it. The only people this would seem to HURT are non-techies who can't even manage that much. Can you imagine even explaining the situation to those people?
...NO CARRIER.
SLASHDOTTER: Bad news, Grandma. That new Linux Dell you're getting won't come with WINE.
GRANDMA: Wine? Like, alcohol?
S: No, no. It's a program CALLED "WINE."
G: Why's it called that?
S: It's an acronym.
G: What for?
S: Um, "WINE is not an emulator."
G: It's in its own acronym?
S: Well, yeah, it's recursive. I think it's kind of a joke.
G: Okay, well, what does it do?
S: It emulates Windows so you can...
G: I thought you just said it's NOT an emulator.
S: Well, right.
G: It's in the name of the program.
S: Yeah. So technically it's an interpreter, I think, but EFFECTIVELY what it does is let you run Windows programs in Linux.
G: But didn't you say that Windows programs are buggy and full of viruses?
S: Well, yeah.
G: And that's why you're making me learn this Linux thing instead of just running Windows in the first place?
S: Yeah.
G: So why would I WANT to run Windows programs?
S:
G: Oh my stars, not again.
From the Picasa FAQ:
Q: Will more Google applications be ported to Linux under Wine?A: If Picasa for Linux is successful, then other Google applications (and future versions of Picasa) may also be ported using Wine. (Google Earth won't be one of them, though; it will be a native Linux application.) For more info on Wine, please visit http://winehq.org./
apt-get clean
I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
Your definition of difficult is clearly one based in an alternate Universe.
YOu can just issues a commend, use the package manager or doubleclick in the file with the packaged software (this will launch in most distors the graphical installer).
So exactly in which planet this almost impossible Linux software installation of stuff is taking place?
Using loaded words like censorship frankly gives you no credibility.
Supposing that the scenario you are painintg was true, you still could get things done (painful but doable) and once one person does the installation, he can share the wisdom with others.
I fail to see how you could do that with closed source software, except paying for the support and in occassions being told by EULAs that you can't whine in public about your experiences.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
"One key comment that Mark makes in the interview is that he is for free software."
;). These are the new rules, get used to them. The "free ride" for the bean counter and monopolists types at the helm of software development for the last thirty years may not yet be over but there is now a very viable alternative.
For most in the GNU/Linux community the focus is on freedom of use, flexibility and quality not on the creation of a cheap knock off of commercial software. This is often explained by the "free as in speech" as opposed to "free as in beer" examples. Perhaps I do not have the full text of the same interview you quoted. The ones I read that are topical to this thread are quoted below. They indicate to me that he was referring to the qualities that relate to the freedom of use qualities inherent in Linux that allow users and developers to freely build, deploy, customize and use superior software. Either you innocently have a very basic misunderstanding of the Free Software movement, you are a commercial developer upset that your coding efforts are being out classed by free software developers or you are acting as a shill for commercial interests. The Free Software movement is a true grass roots effort initiated by developers that also often use their own products. Many of them got tired of having the products of their own creative efforts being acquired and locked away by commercial interests, very often in the nefarious acquisitions and mergers of the last few decades. They were angered that in many cases the code they labored on had been used in ways contrary to their own ideals. They were frustrated that they often lost the right to use or alter a product of their own creation.
Nether the less I will still bite on the "free as in beer" argument. Commercial software development companies have simply over priced their product in relation to its usefulness. Given the prevalence of computers and the digital nature of software, especially commonly used software, the price per unit of deployment can be very low and still provide a substantial return. Commercial interests decided to use, or more correctly stated as misuse, copyright and patent laws in addition to morally if not legally questionable "agreements" (EULAS) to create an artificial scarcity of product and thus maximum returns. I believe they simply went a few steps too far in the restriction of rights and the price of the product when it is compared to the usefulness of the product. Via these return maximizing methods these companies have managed to build some of the most fiducially successful monopolies in history before they hit the wall of customer resistance. Nether the less the wall has been hit, and their greed has reached the limit of customer acceptance, at least by a minority of customers. These same customers have in the course of a couple decades created alternative software and development methods for themselves and others. They have done an excellent job, their product development model is based on a open and flat meritocracy and is thus able to recruit many thousands of skilled developers and create products of comparative or better quality. The license model, the GPL, has very few restrictions on the use of the end product. The movement holds the moral high ground in regards to the basic ideals of its development model and the rights of its developers and customers. Last, and in this case also the least, it by its base nature is thus priced very competitively
Wabi-Sabi
Matthew
""I am a deep believer in the ideology of free software. I think it's morally better, but I'm also very conscious of the practical benefits of the free software movement."
"I do not want to position Ubuntu and Linux as a cheap alternative to Windows."
"While Linux is an alternative to Windows, it is not cheap Windows. Linux has its own strengths, and users should want it because of those strengths and not because it's a cheap copy of Windows.""
Mark Shuttleworth
My feeling is that dell might actrally follow through on this minus win of course, but you al ways have the option fto rurchase code weavers cross over Officwe of another windows emulator.
Linux will catch up with Microsoft.
To me, it is pretty obvious that Ubuntu, which has Bug #1 as top priority, can not cast itself to the public eye as some piece of free software which seems or tries to emulate the Windows system with which its stars are crossed, by design. My hat is off to Mark Shuttleworth, who once again, shows great leadership.