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The Clueless Newbie Rides Again
overshoot writes "Anyone remember The Clueless Newbie's Linux Odyssey? As it happens, she's come back to have a go at Ubuntu Feisty. 'Four years ago I tried about a dozen Linux distributions, to see if they were ready for an ordinary user to install as an escape from the Windows world. None of the distros performed well enough for me to recommend them to a non-geek unless they were going to hire someone to install it. After hearing Dell's recent announcement that it will sell computers with pre-installed Ubuntu Linux, I decided to see if Ubuntu was user-friendly.'"
WTF? You don't expect me to go RTFA do you? That's what all those high UID peons are for. Someone post a cogent summary.
Deleted
Wonder how well it works with laptops? My problem has always been Broadcom wireless network cards and Brother Multi-function printers...
The NSA: The only part of the US government that actually listens.
I installed it on my windows laptop not too long ago. Things in Edgy worked fine but as soon as I went to Feisty I started having issues. Like my wireless card suddenly stopped working. Feisty is riddled with bugs, especially for laptop users. The Dell deal will probably solve that problem on Dell hardware but for most of us Ubuntu needs some more Q&A. I was very disappointed when they released a kernel update that killed most peoples installs while Feisty was in beta, and then had a full Feisty release the next week. Hardly enough time to repair and test the fixes.
Ubuntu isa nice distro but it needs work. I will continue to use it but nly beause I know how to tweak and fix things. Your average user does not. IMO software installation on Linux needs a lot of work. f we could get it to the point of ease that Apple has then I feel Linux would be a real alternative to windows.
For those of you in the F/OSS community who want to make their products more mainstream, here's a free user test and feedback.
I take it as a great compliment to you folks in the F/OSS community that someone like her is attempting to install and run your products! It means you are becoming a real alternative to Windows and this editorial is a wonderful way to continue and expand on your excellence.
Just my opinion.
I prefer Flambe as apposed flamebait.
...but does it run lin... er... WoW... I mean... nevermind.
Thunderclone: ONE MAN ENTERS! TWO MEN LEAVE! ONE MAN ENTERS! TWO MEN LEAVE!
NORMAL USERS don't install OS's. If you install your OS, you have progressed to POWER USER. Windows "normal users" call a computer shop to reinstall their OS. I know, I'VE GOTTEN THE CALLS!
Also,
If you don't want to change, don't change, Linux isn't windows, it's not trying to be, it's something different.
Now flame me, please.
My Babylon
The author tries to act like a newbie in the first couple pages. But by page 3, the words "driver", "Wine" (as in the emulator), "partition", and more start to appear. Newbie?!! Are you kidding me?
When my Grandma sat down at a computer for the first time a few years ago, she tried waving the mouse in the air to make the pointer move. That is a computer newbie!
As one person trying to migrate off of Windows (XP and Win2K user), I liked the features of Feisty Fawn running from the Live CD that I wanted to install it to the hard drive.
If we want Ubuntu to move forward, the developers need to recognize the thousands of people who will see it as an installation on top of Microsoft instead of getting a fresh clean installed image from Dell. Get these people comfortable and then the others will follow.
If screen four can be made a little more clear of explain that it has detected a Windows OS and lead the user from there, then we have a wonderful comfort level even before they get to see how Linux is so much better than Windows.
For /. readers, this may be a slow and cumbersome process but then again, if you can have the CD help Mom and Dad install Linux instead of you doing it for her, then there is one less family help desk call you have to make. Also, it makes them feel like they can actually maintain and operate there own systems.
Don't worry, they will still love you, even if they don't need your help anymore.
Yeah, of all of the OSes I deal with on a regular basis, Windows is by far the hardest to install. XP for instance loves to balk if you have a non-NTFS partition on your hard drive. I've many times had to go and fire up something like Ranish partition manager to change the ID of some non-NTFS partition just so I can get the XP installer to start. If I weren't computer savvy that would be a complete roadblock.
I read the internet for the articles.
And even though I really dislike people who say things "I have no idea what it did, but that's the way I like it," The review is favorable and correct. I tend to use Ubuntu and Fedora the most these days, and the article (I think) correctly shows that Ubuntu is a very good distro for the user's user, someone who doesn't really care to learn their operating system, let alone to learn programming. (Ubuntu is plently good for techies too, make no mistake).
What I can't figure out is why the reviewer discusses Ubuntu *installation* when they claimed that the reason they decided to check was Dell's announcement that they were *preloading* Ubuntu on PCs and laptops.
Ubuntu desktop Linux is undoubtedly a great distro for end users. And it shows why Microsoft is pulling out the patent crap now. Linux distros are now at a point where, for most users, there is no reason to prefer Windows. Only hardcore gamers have a reason to stick with Windows at this point.
Ubuntu can't do anything about Adobe not shipping a 64-bit native flash, Win64 users have the same problem.
I stopped reading after this point. I hope the conclusion was something on the lines of "it works if you have a live-in geek". That's a cop out - saying you've got a problem but it was resolved by the fact that your partner is a technical expert.
Exactly! Until it can be used by someone without ever having to rely on outside assistance from someone more savvy, Linux remains an obvious step below such issueless competitors as Microsoft Windows (whose users are known the world over for their trouble-free operations and complete eschewing of support), and that caveat should be mentioned at every opportunity.
Running Windows^H^H^H^H^H^H^H OSX and Linux in the home. (I don't have time for Solitaire any more.)
In the end she said the unavailability of an outline feature in Open Office is all that is keeping her from switching. She then urged them to get to work on that feature. She does recommend Linux.
photosMy Photostream
The ultimate in easy-to-use Windows-to-Linux distributions would be one that's custom built for each user. You'd download a small program to Windows that'd scan your system looking at hardware, software, and configuration information. It'd then download all the needed drivers, equivalent open source software, and backup your system and software configuration information (converting it to Linux, of course.) Even give them the option to backup all their personal files. Then it'd build you a custom installation ISO, just for their system.
As much as possible would be brought over from Windows. Network configuration information, browser favorites, email client configuration, desktop icon layout, even the desktop wallpaper -- anything to make Linux feel more like home. It's all there, just the way they like it, why not copy it as much as possible?
If there's any problems, they can be found and addressed while the user is still in the safety of Windows.
I wonder if I use bold in my signature, people will notice my posts.
I stopped reading after this point. I hope the conclusion was something on the lines of "it works if you have a live-in geek". That's a cop out - saying you've got a problem but it was resolved by the fact that your partner is a technical expert.
Actually with just a little more research she would have found out that allows 64bit Firefox to use 32bit plugins.
Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
That was the end of that particular segment, had you gone to the next (last) page. I think the conclusion was simply that the "live-in geek" had done some research and found out that Adobe is working on the problem and there is no solution yet.
So on that point she conceded that the flash player doesn't work but apparently felt it was not Ubuntu's fault.
while [ 1 ]; do echo -n -e "\xe2\x95\xb$((($RANDOM&1)+1))"; done
Here's a mop in case any of that dripping sarcasm makes a puddle.
Hail Eris, full of mischief...
E pluribus sanguinem
agreed. she's ass-backwards on this.
in 1998 (might have been 99), i had no problem at all installing red had onto my Compaq. and i didnt know the first thing about linux, and very little about computers in general.
long story short, i opened up a terminal, typed ls and felt cool because i was running linux. then when i rebooted and realized windows was gone i shit a brick.
The fear she felt when Ubuntu's installer did not give any sign it was aware of, and respecting her Windows partition.
This is the kind of UI point that developers easily miss. They know what is going on under the UI, and therefore they are unaware of what the user is going to think when confronted with the interface.
I wouldn't be surprised if many newbie Linux experimenters are deterred part way through the installation process by something like this. It really is a pain to reinstall Windows.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Have you noticed how easy an Ubuntu install has gotten? If someone is really new to computers Ubuntu is MUCH easier to install and set up than Windows.
But:
People that know a little more about computers will know Windows, especially, because people that need to work on their computers will have Windows installed, because most of the time the program that they need to work with (other than office or browsing) will be a Windows product.
So for support that newb has no one to turn to.
Plus: Printers,Webcams,... all the little "toys" newbs want soon after they become not so much newb have Windows stickers on the box.
The conclusion should be the same as for people installing Windows - even if you've got a 64-bit capable processor, unless you have a compelling reason, stick with the 32-bit OS.
Even on 64-bit Windows, don't you still need to run a 32-bit browser to use the Flash plugin?
The suggested remedy, editing a system configuration file, is unacceptable.
I thought the article was pretty good, written from a newbie point of view. Still, I think the above qoute is a little harsh. If the instructions are clear, I really do not see this as a big deal. I think most people would be relatively comfortable with doing this as long as the steps are clearly outlined.
1. Open file xyz
2. Find the section that reads xxx
3. Replace xxx with xxy
4. Save and close the file.
Ronald said nothing. He flung himself from the room, flung himself upon his horse, and rode madly off in all directions.
The author was surprised that Ubuntu didn't clobber her Win2K partition.
Maybe she should realize that there's only ONE COMPANY out there that assumes it owns your whole PC....
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
Some spelling errors aren't.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
this is a universal problem with pretty much any 64-bit desktop OS. driver and software issues are abound and it's stuck in a catch-22 for the time being, in addition to the fact that about 99% of desktop users have no use for the benefits of 64-bit yet.
when people actually start to need more than 4GB of ram (the main benefit), then 64-bit will pick up steam.
upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
The issue is apples and oranges. Joe 6-pack doesn't install Windows himself, he buys a computer with it already on there. If he's going to use Ubuntu, or any other flavor of linux, he's much more likely to have to install it himself, because HP, Dell, etc., don't (yet) have pre-installed versions for him. So ease of install is UBER-important because Joe 6-pack will have to do it himself. Even for somebody who's used to installing Windows, a linux install can be intimidating. "What the hell is this "swap" partition for? Why can't I just make one big drive? What are all these different keyboard choices? I just have a regular keyboard, which one is that?" Sure, it's child's play to somebody who knows, but you can't assume Joe 6-pack does.
----- Connection reset by beer
The 32-bit Flash plugin works just fine with 32-bit Firefox on a 64-bit (x86-64) system.
That's what I've got here. (Suse 10.1 distro, not Ubuntu, which may or may not make a difference. If Ubuntu is installing a 64-bit browser, they may want to rethink that. I've only tried Ubuntu briefly, and passed on it because I didn't like their init system, I'm too used to Suse and RedHat.)
-- Alastair
from the article, venting at OO developers:
Your unwillingness or inability to give OpenOffice.org an outline view that works just like Microsoft Word's outline is all that is keeping me from turning my Microsoft Windows partition into blank oxide.Don't you just love patents.
That's like saying "To avoid being attacked by treants, I'm going to hide in this running chipper-shredder."
=)
RELATIVE "safety"? Maybe. Most of these people sorta-know Windows. So it's perceived as "safer". Even though it really isn't.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
The "unless you have a geek handy" was with regard to researching the fix when things don't go according to plan.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
Yes, I can vouch for this. I run XP x64, and I use 64 bit Minefied (Firefox 3.0.0a), and Adobe does not have a flash plugin for it. If I need to use flash I have to switch to 32bit Firefox, same as in Linux.
Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
Especially since Google is probably the single largest user of Linux in the world. Did they ever fix all the problems with Google Earth on Linux? Like the itsy bitsy font that you can't read at decent resolutions or the crashing?
The Farewell Tour II
I have also been looking a little at Debian Etch, and it also looks good. I think it all comes down to if you like the taste of RPM or DEB packages better...
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
Scanning registry 1 of 1000 MB...
Found alexa
Found About Blank
Found Russian spam bot
Found Office 2003
Attempting to apt-get...
Could not find alexa
Could not find bonzi buddy
Could not find Russian spam bot
Installing open office
Importing spam mail 3 of 106,184
Done.
Of course, if she really was a newbie who wanted to try Linux, she'd have bought a Dell computer with Ubuntu already installed. Or she'd have downloaded the default distro offered, which was 32-bit, and not had any of the 64-bit compatibility problems. Only because she wasn't really a newbie, but a tech journalist, did she mistakenly chose the 64-bit distro, which is where all her real problems came from: lack of commercial vendor support for 64-bit Linux.
Edith Keeler Must Die
Holy crap! a complete newbie installed a complete 64 bit system and it worked with a few minor problems with non free software not found in 32 bit versions. She had trouble with DVDs, Nvidia drivers, Flash and Picasa, and did not like the GDM login fonts. She was able to solve the Nvidia problem without too much trouble and seems to have made DVDs and Adobe Flash work. All of this with less effort than she would have put into a Windoze box. One reboot and everything "very automatic".
Her comments about non free software are scathing:
This is really cool and shows a good grasp of what free software is all about. She figured out that the non free parts were the problem, not the free parts. This kind of enlightenment from a non programmer is great to see.
Her conclusion is an uncompromising endorsement:
The more I think about it, the nicer the article is. This is a picky user and she's been satisfied. Many of her fears, such as the complete loss of data and OS overwrite, came from M$ use, so her opinion is likely to improve.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Windows Vista is actually about as easy to install as a typical modern Linux distribution. It's sorta eerie how similar the installer looks.
$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
For anyone trying the latest K/X/Ubuntu flavor, or Debian 4 for that matter (as I did), wireless networking is easy, and cheap too, of you don't stray too far from these instructions.
1. Choose hardware from this madwifi/ Atheros list: http://madwifi.org/wiki/Compatibility. Last week I picked up two El Cheapo Sweek 802.11g cards for 20 euros each, and Ubuntu flashed its restricted driver message at one once, I accepted, and it just worked, even with WPA2 + TKIP encryption at the router. Note there are no USB wifi dongles supported. But PCI & pcmcia, etc.
2. Part of the above is working with Gnome NetworkManager.
Stay focused on 1 & 2, and don't use little USB wireless sticks, and wireless on Linux IS easy.
disk encryption: bonus points for starting with Debian 4, since the EZ installer gives you the option to encrypt the whole (laptop?) disk from the Get Go. I opted for Debian's easy disk encryption (Ubuntu doesn't offer it, really) and chose to fight the wireless puzzle. It was a hard fight, but I think I picked the correct battle to fight. So now just add a nice rsync backup to my http://www.dreamhost.com/r.cgi?134994 Debian server's non-public disk-space for $7 a month, and well that's a secure, yet functional laptop.
Oh, and www.Hamachi.cc makes for easy newbie intranets, and Firestarter is a nifty newbie GUI for IPTables.
- --
You can't be ahead of the curve if you're stuck in a loop.
You can't be ahead of the curve, if you're stuck in a loop.
Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
To be fair, this is ONE issue, with Adobe, not open source software or Linux. So it is fair to still say it works.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
The real problem is she installed 64-bit without understanding the implications of such. Aka: buggy. If she'd have installed pure 32-bit, it probably would have just worked. Ditto the wine-wrapped picasa.
Slashdot Patriotism: We Support our Dupes!
Why would we slam her?..See troll 1 thread down.
Really it was almost a shame to read a comment like yours, and then see the beginning of the next thread be a troll bashing her.
Too bad some people think that any opinion that doesn't line up 100% with their own (even if it is 90-95% there) is just plain wrong.
Security of one's PC isn't a moral battle between platforms, though the holy wars between zealots do look like it. The relatively small payoff for targeting Linux might be the reason that Linux is more secure, but that reason is part of the proof that the result is that Linux is more secure.
I don't know why people think that giving reasons that explain why something is true somehow reduces the importance of that truth. But we often see people defending a losing side by explaining the reasons why the other side is winning. Maybe that excuses their support for the loser, but they have just further proven why the other side is winning.
--
make install -not war
Yeah. If only we had a distribution that was kind of like Ubuntu, but had slower releases. Ubuntu does releases twice a year, so maybe we could make a new distribution based on Ubuntu that had releases every couple years. It would be known as a uber-stable distribution, but wouldn't have all the newest bleeding-edge versions of apps. That would be totally sweet.
Geeze! She's the answer to the F/OSS Community's adoption problems - just my opinion.
I prefer Flambe as apposed flamebait.
And you, Sir, are one of the reasons why males have a bad name.
Their version numbers are not sequential, so it matters not what comes after the . I quite frankly think they are quite stable, and if you don't find it so, stick to the LTS versions.
I for one, can't wait until the next version comes out.
Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
I find it interesting when people compare installations between Windows and Linux. Funny thing is, they are usually only talking about Linux installations, because Windows was already on the machine.
Interesting thing about the Dell I bought a couple of years ago, when the hard drive is clean and I do an install, Ubuntu works great. M$, however, installs but fails to allow me to connect to my cable modem because the broadcom driver is not on the SP2 install disk.
That means if I were reviewing that install - I would stop right there. If I can't connect to the net, what is the point of installing the OS in the first place?
-- End Review.
The article matches up fairly well with my own experience, although I think the contrast between her earlier trial and the current one may be a little overstated. I just did an install of ubuntu on a laptop yesterday, and I was impressed that (a) the system was installed successfully (not so long ago, installing linux on a laptop was unlikely to work without major pain and suffering), and (b) the wifi card automagically worked. This is in contrast to the situation a year ago, when I installed ubuntu on my daughter's desktop machine, and had to spend a weekend messing around before I could get her wifi to work.
One thing that I think is not acceptable yet is printing. Within the last few months, I got my vanilla laser printer working on my linux box. It was a truly nasty and time-consuming process. This is not a case where you can blame patents and proprietary interfaces, etc., either. The printer is a Brother HL-1440. Brother hired the CUPS developers to write GPL'd linux drivers. The problem is mainly just that the linux implementation of CUPS is a disaster. (The MacOS X implementation seems fine, AFAICT.)
Find free books.
Yeah, that part if a little annoying. Not a big issue for somebody who's a long-term linux user, potential big-time pain in the butt (even with wizards) for out-of-the-box newbies.
However, there is a Broadcom driver in the newer kernels. I haven't had any luck at all getting the stupid thing to work though. Can anyone else comment on whether it works for them? Maybe one day it will be included, working, in the new liveCD's
Oh, I forgot to mention, if you do want a stable, less often updated Ubuntu like Linux flavor, I suggest Debian (what Ubuntu is based on). Ubuntu split off from Debian because their release cycle was too slow.
Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
Any program has a looooooong way to go before being usable by people like that. If you hold linux up to that standard, hold everything else to that standard too, in which case nothing is usable.
I read the article. She had some requirements up front that exclude her running Etch.
It should not come as a surprise that she is really indifferent to Free (as in speech) software. She wants her hardware to "just" work. This unfortunately excludes a default Debian Etch. I've been through Sarge and Etch and I think Ubuntu competition has only benefited the Debian project because Etch is a far superior release of Free software. Yes, non-free is out there and relatively painless, but it still requires some stuff that she specifically did not want to do.
I would encourage potential Ubuntu users to give Debian Etch a spin first. It's much, much more reliable, has many different installers including the excellent graphical installer and is a huge improvement over Sarge, pretty much blowing away the old complaints about Debian.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
Try getting someone who has never installed Windows before to attempt to to install both systems.
Get two people to attempt a usability test. eg: Browsing, emailing, word processing, media playing, cd burning etc. After all how many clueless newbie's actually install their own Operating System.
davecb5620@gmail.com
Do like everyone else does.....click the "Print Mode".... http://www.associatedcontent.com/pop_print.shtml?c ontent_type=article&content_type_id=233123
One page, all of the content, no advertisements.
Done.
Layne
...to see if they were ready for an ordinary user to install as an escape from the Windows world.
Last time I checked, ordinary users didn't install their own operating systems...
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
no matter how easy the install would be he's still gonna think windows is "good enough" pay close attention to history- where there is a lack of knowledge- there is no choice
Err... Joe 6-pack has to change eventually. To Vista or to Linux. (Or Apple, I suppose.) And a lot of Joe 6-packs have heard distant rumbling, kind of like thunder on the horizon, that Windows is bad or kills kittens or something. Every day MS gives people more reasons to consider a move to Linux - even regular users. And I don't see his as an anti-MS troll. I currently have (between work and home):
Apple MacBook Pro (dual boot OS X, Windows XP Pro)
openSUSE desktop/test server
Vista Ultimate desktop
Windows XP Pro desktop
So I do most of my work in Windows and I admire a lot of the powerful things you can do (excel is my favorite Windows program). But it doesn't change the fact that even if Vista and Office 2007 are better, they are different. And most people know this. And as long as they are doing something different, they think "why not try that linux thing I hear so much about. Isn't it free?"
Linux needs to be ready for those users to capitalize on the turbulence of MSs switch to Vista and 2007 over the next couple of years.
The Southern Baptist Convention has creationism. On Slashdot, we have porn.
part of the expressed policy of ubuntu is to do regular releases, unlike the debian which it is based upon. granted this sometimes is detrimental and even causes some retrograde, it has been quite successful of keeping most aspects of the project coordinated with both kernel releases and gnome releases. plus it has allowed developers to innovate new technology such as startup, which provides great improvement in boot time over the sysvinit scripts. if you need more stability there are long term support versions which are highly polished and receive regular security updates, but if its the nose-bleeding edge you want- you can test drive the next release before it comes out- and if you chose this route, please point out the problems you find so that the developers can fix them before the release comes out.
For some reason my fountain pen doesn't work here.
Well, you're not obligated to update your machine with every new release unless you really want some killer new feature. Every new version of Ubuntu doesn't kill off its predecessor, as they continue to maintain their repositories for several years after it has become out-of-date.
Ubuntu's release cycle is every six months, FYI.
/* No Comment */
I believe you mean 3 GB. I've heard of an issue where for some reason x86 cannot address higher than 3 GB or something. Might have to do with reserved space for video RAM or something like that.
'Yes, firefox is indeed greater than women. Can women block pops up for you? No. Can Firefox show you naked women? Yes.'
'The author was surprised that Ubuntu didn't clobber her Win2K partition'
:)
'Maybe she should realize that there's only ONE COMPANY out there that assumes it owns your whole PC....'
Fire up Computer management on a dual boot W2K/Linux box, create a fat partition on a new harddrive (Z:) and it trashes the MBR, try and run an update and it sometimes does the same thing. It's not as if alien OSs have any right to be on a Windows computer
Re:Doesn't Clobber Win2k
davecb5620@gmail.com
It's an important point. One thing you see over and over again is "why can't I get flash to work with {firefox on windows | Linux}.
With youtube, flash not working utterly seamlessly is a deal breaker.
Need Mercedes parts ?
Anyway, the previous article was not complimentary. Seemed appropriate somehow.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
And where would one find a live-in geek to trouble shoot? Do they sell them or something?
I'm confused. Are you saying that she should have rejected Ubuntu entirely because this problem isn't resolvable by a grandma, or that she shouldn't have complained because it isn't Ubuntu's fault?
I read it as: she wanted certain things to work, and this didn't, so there's a red mark. Whose fault it is is irrelevant.
I always mod up spelling trolls.
But by page 3, the words "driver", "Wine" (as in the emulator), "partition", and more start to appear. Newbie?!! Are you kidding me?
I'm a Windows super-power user, and most of the things I do, I do in the commandline, a.k.a. MS-DOS. (I'm a DOS user since the late 80's).
But switching to Linux is a nightmare. None of the tips and tricks, and of course, the way of doing things I've known for ages will work in this OS jungle. Just because I know how to admin my winxp box doesn't make me an instant linux geek. It's just the same with the article autor.
It's an important point. One thing you see over and over again is "why can't I get flash to work with {firefox on windows | Linux}.
With youtube, flash not working utterly seamlessly is a deal breaker.
It's worth mentioning, I agree - and that the Clueless Newbie made mention of it is entirely valuable and worthwhile. I also happen to think she put it in the right perspective. The vendor of the product in question had not made a 64-bit version yet, and that she needed a resident geek to hunt that factoid out.
My mocking was reserved more for the notion that the entire essay should then be dismissed (a claim that they stopped reading) on that basis. Computer use is more than the OS, yes, but a review of the OS is not worthless on the basis of a vendor falling behind, and that she needed someone else to help her discover that.
With any OS, with many applications, sometimes you need to get some help or advice. That's not an unreasonable thing to do in a review. The need to edit config file would have resulted in an automatic fail. I think her point of view was entirely reasonable.
Running Windows^H^H^H^H^H^H^H OSX and Linux in the home. (I don't have time for Solitaire any more.)
when i rebooted and realized windows was gone i shit a brick.
It was... When I rebooted and realized my warez were gone, I got pretty bored. =)
And when someone criticizes free software (with reason), do you find that "scathing" as well? There's a lot of "non free" software. Are you implying that because Flash (!) doesn't work on 64-bit Linux then all "non free" software is a problem? Seriously?
That's interesting, because when she first published that initial article she was branded an idiot - predictably, I might add. But now everything's A-OK and she's picky and satisfied.
Yeah, I completely lose data all the time under "M$ Windoze" and have never lost any under any other OS. After all, backups are for pussies. Might as well just hope your OS is perfect.
And BTW, in all fairness if someone wants to switch away from Windows to something else because of activation then more power to them. Microsoft deserves to lose them. Activation and "genuine advantage" are a pain that each person needs to decide whether or not they want to put up with.
But "infested with spyware and viruses"? Please. If your computer is "infested" with anything then the most likely cause can be found between the chair and the keyboard.
Web2.0: I love when people Flickr my cuil and digg my boingboing until my google is reddit and I start to yahoo
in light of the ongoing battle over DRM:
Although CDs played immediately, to play DVDs I had to locate and install some files that bypass content protection coding. The website I acquired them from, www.getautomatix.com , warned me that I might be installing something illegal, but I said, "Yarrr, matey", and clicked the install button. Automatix installed itself, then I selected what I needed. More files were downloaded and installedIOW, normal usage of the DVDs (not even gray-area "fair use" copying, but normal playback), on her fully-owned and legally-obtained system, was broken until she installed something that "may be illegal." This is a point we need to make noise about: DRM can make it impossible to simply watch a purchased movie.
I know, not exactly news (to readers here anyway), but it's another opportunity to point it out.
"Oh boy! Are we going to try something dangerous?"
Really the only problems left in linux for a damn while now have been drivers, and there's nothing that can be done about that a lot of the time.
;)
Dells preloaded with Ubuntu will have drivers already working, so the problem is.. irrelevant
I am a technical writer: I think like a Clueless Newbie when I am testing user documentation. My biggest gripe with the Linuxes of the first article was mostly that it was impossible to just RTFM and accomplish things because it depended on arcane knowledge and there was no FM to R. My goal with this project was to see if Ubuntu was something that a minimally competent computer user could install on their own, and end up with a working system. Point and click and copy and paste ... the basic skills.
BTW: Ubuntu's GUI and help pages talk about drivers and partitions and Wine. I was surprised ... happily surprised ... to see so much clearly written, useful information in one spot.
I mean, reading it, it's like she's just oblivious to all the stolen intellectual property from Microsoft that she's using.
Do you have ESP?
If someone would put together a retail boxed Ubuntu with a nice users manual, and maybe a DVD disk with some how-to videos on it that the layperson could understand, and price it at about $19.95 (to cover packaging, the book, and instructional DVD)... the time is probably finally about right for the thing to actually start selling to joe sixpack at the big mega retail stores.
That's what I've got here. (Suse 10.1 distro, not Ubuntu, which may or may not make a difference. If Ubuntu is installing a 64-bit browser, they may want to rethink that.
Debian is working on the really ideal solution to that problem, they call it multiarch. The idea is to make the installer fully aware of all of the different variations of processors and which apps they can run and which libraries are needed.
In this case, what we want to happen is when you apt-get install the flash player, the installer realizes that the only version available is a 32-bit version and that it depends on a 32-bit version of the browser, which in turn needs a certain set of 32-bit libraries, so it downloads and installs all of it, installing the 32-bit libraries next to the 64-bit libraries and replacing the 64-bit browser. Multiarch will make all of that, and much more, not only possible but transparent to the user. It's still a work in progress, though.
In the meantime, I agree that a desktop-oriented distro like Ubuntu should probably install a 32-bit browser by default. Either that or accept a bit of temporary ugliness and code some specific flash and browser handling into the installer so it does the right thing.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
The problem is finding one in the wild. If you can find one in the bar, jackpot. Buy them a drink, ask them if they want to come back to your place for a little "troubleshooting" and voila! Instant, live-in geek.
;)
Good places to look include a local computer supply store or frisbee golf courses, ymmv.
The hard part is getting them to move out/on when you're done with them
So far I've installed Ubuntu on 6 different machines, soon to be 7 for 3 different people (which includes myself). That includes 4 different laptops. I've only had two things not work (sound and a modem on a circa 1998 laptop). Everything else works as advertised. I even got dual monitor support to work, albeit after some major fighting, Googling, and installing proprietary NVidia drivers.
It's easily the best desktop experience I've had on Linux. The wi-fi cards I've tried "just work". That includes two different Atheros based cards, a prism based card, and some built Intel Pro-Wireless chipsets. The only thing that hasn't worked so far is my Broadcom based card, but that's not terribly surprising.
I'd say hands down that Ubuntu is actually a better experience than Windows. I didn't have to screw around downloading drivers for Windows, go and find the software I really needed to install (Office, Thunderbird, etc).
AccountKiller
I've only had a handful of problems with Ubuntu, none of which are really the fault of the Ubuntu distribution. I'm pretty sure these are issues with all "desktop" Linux releases...
One big one that forced me to change from 64-bit Ubuntu to 32-bit Ubuntu was Adobe. They really need to get a clue! 64-bit processors have been in wide availability for at least a few years now, and 64-bit Linux for just about as long. I shouldn't have to run or maintain a secondary 32-bit browser just so I can watch videos on YouTube (or any of the other bazillion sites that decided to use Flash).
Installing proprietary ATI or nVidia drivers is a royal pain in the ass. Even after you do- they don't perform very well. I can usually get better 2D and 3D performance out of $39 no-name Made in China video cards than ATI or nVidia cards costing ten times as much.
DVDs- WTF! Why after all these years do we still have to become "criminals" to play DVDs on our Linux machines?
Other than these issues, which can be worked around with a small amount of effort, I don't miss Windows at all.
IIRC, 4GB total physical address space. basically, maximum ram is 4GB - video ram - CPU cache.
though i think that some mobos/chipsets won't work with more than 3GB for whatever reason, but it isn't the 32-bit limit causing that.
upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
If you install Windows and dont have a driver disk handy for your chipset you can be without USB, Sound, high resolution display, network etc...
I remember a few instances in the past where I had to burn drivers onto CD to get a PC online.
Typically a good modern Linux distro will get online and most hardware working out of the box. Obviously there will be things that don't work, but the same is true of the Mac.
We have a MFC-8500 in the office. The Brothers' supplied driver works for us.
m l
http://solutions.brother.com/linux/en_us/index.ht
My Debian 3.1 print (CUPS) server runs smooth as silk.
72 CD D7 52 D0 7E D8 47 44 91 D5 84 D1 59 F1 A9-This is my 128bit integer. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
UnixA is NOT a smaller target audience, it is in the Desktop, but not on the server.
And let me tell you, servers with a fixed IP address, open well known ports listening, and lots of domains pointing to it are the most common target. I have a fixed IP address, on a Unix machine, and you should just see my logs. Tons of break-in attempts everyday, and my Slackware just resists all of them.
Desktop machines with windows with variable IP addresses are the target of bots. Unix servers with fixed IP addresses are the target of real crackers and wannabes trying to break in 24/7.
Unix is a far more secure platform than Windows; and it has been proved since it's more exposed to heavy attacks all the time.
WTF am I doing replying to an AC at 5 A.M on a Friday night?
Considering that the only good thing she has to say about Windows is that it has a word processor with an outline feature, being somewhat better than Windows isn't high praise. Furthermore, it explains why she was particularly worried; in her experience, if the computer doesn't tell you it's keeping your data, it's probably not. Even if Ubuntu doesn't do bad things, it doesn't relieve new users' stress much if it responds like Windows responds when it is doing bad things.
and to continue in the "I'm not a complete idiot, but I play one on teh intertubes" spirit... Some Clueless User just bought a brand shiny new machine a few months ago. The unkempt young fellow that sold it to them made a big deal about how it had 64 bits! Of COURSE they are going to install the 64-bit version. I don't buy an 8 cylinder SUV and tell the dealer to only put a 4 cylinder engine in it, after all! Granted, our Clueless User won't be doing a 'nix install any time soon, but that's part of the point and goal...get it so that they can and do.
1.) Can either be updated automatically by clicking a radio button that allows the system to look online (and doesn't offer a cryptic warning about downloading something evil and closed source).
2.) Comes with a CD or Diskette that has a driver that can be used.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not blowing Microsoft here. The problem is simply that "not having a proper linux driver" is not a problem that currently costs hardware manufacturers enough money. Perhaps if Dell does start pushing PC's with Ubuntu on them, enough people might end up with the problem that it becomes a serious financial cripple.
Windows has more viruses because linux has more virus coders.
I get tired of hearing about the x64 flash thing...there are so many ways around it. Doesn't automatix (which she uses) have a firefox32 option? If she is new to linux altogether she should probably have stuck with the i386 version, although many new to linux tend to select x64 becuase they want to utilize their 64 bit cpus, and I can't blame them. I run Dapper Drake x64 great and the only time x64 has bit me in the ass at all is in regards to WINE, which I can live without since I dual boot XP.
There is more to science than physics!
www.iomalfunction.blogspot.com
Yeah Seriously... get on with reading it Colin.
m1m3r - n. - a leet speak performance artist that sometimes gets trapped in an imaginary glass box
What if the whole of the disk is dedicated to Windows - is there an opensource program that would resize the Windows partition? Back in the days when I was more into Linux, there was something called "fips" if I am not mistaken, but I think Windows XP is just too sensitive about these things.
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
... the article was written to address the feasibility of Linux as a viable mass-market (read: installable by idiots) operating system, ...
Not just idiots. Also by people who are very smart and skilled - in other things than system administration. (Non-idiots can be even more of a problem, since they can get into more complicated messes.)
These people have more important (to them, and maybe to us) things to do with their time than learn the ins-and-outs of system internals. A surgeon, for instance, needs a car that "just works" to get to the operating room in time. After decades of training he should not be wasting his time learning auto mechanics and working on his car, risking his fingers changing his own water pump or his life relining his own brakes.
If we want Lunux (and/or other FOSS) to replace the commercial systems, it must become accessible to such non-computer-guts-savvy people. They're the bulk of the users.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Why stop at Linux? Installing anything on top of the OS, much less installing an OS, is a challenge for people like this. And being usable is mostly about what you are used to. My brother-in-law gave us a Mac mini. After hearing about how easy it was supposed to be, I found that I had trouble figuring out how to do some pretty rudimentary things. That's because I wasn't familiar with the Mac way. The "standard" location of things (think menu) is sometimes different between a Mac and Windows. Heck, I couldn't even cut & paste because ctrl-c/ctrl-v didn't work. Does that make a Mac harder to use? No, just different. Open Apple-C isn't harder, just different. The difficulty for Linux/Mac is that people's perception of "different" is "harder".
... and I really, really, really don't belive it's ready for non-technical users at all unless they have a fairly basic PC configuration: I have two (older) video cards in my linux box, and there was absolutely no way to get ubuntu to actually initialize/configure them both in dualscreen/xinerama without serious editing of xorg.conf (basically creating the device entries for the non-detected card from scratch and configuring xinerama etc.).
Having been using linux since the 1.2pre days I do know how to gets my hands dirty, but if I had been a non technical user there'd have been no way I could've managed. On the other hand the networking and general system configuration was quite painless, automatix and synaptic have been a pleasure to use and the install was very straightforward, even to the point of putting my 2k partition in the grub boot menu (and it actually working, which is definitely a new experience).
With a slightly more robust x configuration (quite a few folks nowadays run dual screen, most developers for sure) it would be nearly perfect.
-- the cake is a lie
Hmm, now I see why the blurb links to the slashdot story instead of the real FA; it doesn't exist.
The Internet Archive is your friend.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
I assume on point one you are talking about the Windows Update dialog that comes up and says "Can Windows connect to the Internet to look for this driver?" or something like that. Just so you know, to date (after at least a few hundred Windows installs), I have never seen that thing work. Now maybe it's because I'm always installing hardware that isn't Certified and all that, but honestly, if Joe Blow goes down to Best Buy to buy a new piece of hardware, he's probably gonna buy the cheapest thing there, and more than likely it won't be Certified. Even a lot of server-level hardware isn't certified to work in Windows XP (since they assume you'll be using 2000 or 2003), but it functions just fine. And on point two, maybe it's just me, but I never trust any drivers that come on the CD. I've been burned too many times by out-of-date, buggy drivers. Always download the latest from the company's web site (which, incidentally, probably aren't Certified either).
-- There, everybody likes a gorilla.
Am I the only one who thought that the Clueless Newbie's Linux Odyssey referred to her minivan?
go figure - I'm a Honda Odyssey owner...and I got excited thinking that someone managed to implement Linux somewhere in the Odyssey!!!
I got all excited about hacking the nav or the ECU with some Linux distro...to the point where I was *about* to buy one of those "Linux" fishes from thinkgeek and put it on my Odyssey!!!
oh well. Didn't read the article.
semper ubi sub ubi
I tried Google's Picasa offering for Linux a week ago when I wanted to upload like 50 pictures to a web album. It ran fine, but the version Google decided to Linux-ify with wine didn't have web album upload support. I downloaded the latest windows version and installed it with wine and it runs wonderfully. I was able to upload the photos to my picasa web albums and haven't had a single problem. Everything that I tried just worked, it was a lot slicker than the version specifically for Linux.
This is with: Ubuntu 7.04; wine 0.9.33; picasa 2.7 (build 36.4000,0)
We always knew Comcast was corrupt, here's the proof: http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1909890&cid=34545432
Ok, point taken. However, the facilities are there, and I have seen them work. Again, something that blame can mostly be placed squarely onto hardware manufacturers.
Windows has more viruses because linux has more virus coders.
"tired of havig their computer infested" ... fix the spell checker and we're good to go!
"Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
What about Windows phone support... LOL
My Babylon
it is windows WITH services esp IIS, not just windows, that is cracked so heavily. In contrast, Linux with many "services" still has a much better record.
I find it funny that so many virus writers and crackers will do stories where they say that they choose Windows because it is much easier to crack than any other OS, and yet, folks like you fight this. Soon we will get "experts" like you claiming that Linus created Linux because aliens told him to.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
jZnat,
You might find http://support.microsoft.com/kb/929605 interesting. It just skims the surface, but kinda explains where that memory goes.
Kompressor
kmem russian roulette: Aquillar> dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/kmem bs=1 count=1 seek=$RANDOM
Anonymous stupid Coward is too stupid to say anything but stupid repetition of the word "stupid". Now that's worthless illogic that isn't even a fallacy. It's just stupid.
--
make install -not war
That actually is a great idea IMHO!
With Dell offering Ubuntu now, and all of MS's FUD recently with Linux, more people will be hearing about 'that Linux thingy'.
Some clever marketing and a good package deal (you described), this sounds like a great oppurtunity for a business.
Wish I had the resources to implement this myself.
Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
http://web.archive.org/web/20030406062521/http://w ww.linuxworld.com/2003/0401.tsu.html
The link provided here resulted in a "not found" error, so I went to archive.org and found the original comparison.
It's old, but gives some insight into how things have (or have not) progressed in the last few years.
Yet again we see a "review" like this. And once again, the litmus test appears to be how closely it emulates Windows.
there are dozens, no hundreds of things you can do with a typical Linux/Unix/etc OS(flavor aside) that you can't do with Windows. I'd really like to see a review of the strengths and weaknesses of Windows and Linux (and Mac to be fair) that isn't about emulating Windows way of seeing the world but instead deals with the core aspects of computing.
IE:
Which one handles crashes best?
Which one copies files fastest?
Which one multi-tasks the best?
Which one is most secure from hackers and bots?
(and of course, a slew of GUI comparisons as well)
And not just "this is better" but give us raw data and charts and so on.
That sort of comparison would make sense. Having someone do this sort of Windows vs Linux nonsense AGAIN is nearly useless.
Once I surfed to a website of a company that sold security measures for Microsoft IIS, claiming to vastly improve its security. (I'm sorry but I REALLY don't remember which company it was).
After reading further, it turned out that their security measure was the following:
They claimed to modify IIS to mimick the server response of Apache, not just the HTTP header but the webserver response timings etc. as well. As a result, any prospective Joe Random Cracker would attack the website, see that it was running on Apache
and leave, searching for easier targets (in other words, IIS)
And I remember thinking: If this company is successful with their product, that proves that IIS is a LOT less secure than Apache :-).
To be, or not to be: isn't that quite logical, Slashdot Beta?
If you don't need it, don't install the 64bit version. The 64bit version works quite well, but the 32bit version works with more third party software and older software.
Others tell me it doesn't always work, but it's easy -- go online and look for help with bcm43xx-fwcutter. That's the utility you need, it will slice the firmware out of Windows drivers for use with the Linux kernel driver.
Actually may be easier, I believe the Ubuntu bcm43xx-fwcutter package will automagically download the Windows drivers and slice out what you need. It probably works better than ndiswrapper, too -- especially given ndiswrapper only works on x86 machines anyway, and Powerbooks have broadcom cards in them.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Not sure what I'm doing wrong, but I haven't had to use a console to eject optical discs in years.
CD-icon, right-click, eject. Just like in Windows. It's been like this for years. Default Kubuntu install, and used to be that way in at least Red Hat.
Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
I loved your Sports car / Party bus analogy.
1. Sports Car: Mac OS X. Pretty fast, looks fancy, you think you're real cool. You paid too much, it's not that reliable. Eventually you'll just have to buy a whole new one, cause maintenance is a real bitch.
2. Party Bus: Windows XP. Kinda scary, might get viruses, but you'll have fun with silly games and plenty of porn. Might drive you to drink too much, might cause hang overs.
3. Work Truck: Debian Linux. Solid, reliable. Gets the job done. Boring. Nobody looks forward to it.
4. SUV: Windows Vista. Everybody wants it, because it looks better than your old car, but when you get it, it's slow, hard to do three point turns in, costs you way too much in gas, and doesn't do some of the stuff your old car did. You end up using your old car, and eventually put it up on Craig's List.
5. Classic Car: Ubuntu. If you keep it in fluids, it runs forever. It's fast, has clean simple lines, all of your friend's are jealous, but not brave enough to switch from their Toyota. Kinda missing some newer creature comforts like cup holders.
6. Moped: Knoppix. Saves money, time, is fast. But you can't do some things you do with your other car, like carry stuff and other people. Plus it's a little embarrassing.
7. Yugo: Windows ME. Barely drove even when brand new. Was KIND OF cute, at first, but within minutes you wished you had a different car. Any car.
8. Toyota: Windows 2000. Saves money, saves time, is pretty fast. Does most of the stuff you need it to do, and easily, but it's really not glamorous. Tons of people are still driving it, but nobody's proud. You probably still have the stock radio, which sucks, but at least it still plays music.
I hold very few opinions. I hold information based on observation and fact. If you wish to disagree, please use facts.
This review was very well done overall. Nevertheless, a bit of unfairness did manage to creep in. And no, I'm not talking about the fact that her familiarity with Windoze is probably all that keeps her from seeing the Windows installation process as far more difficult than the Linux one. That's just how things are, like it or not.
Rather, I'm talking about her "no editing configuration files" rule, especially as it was invoked to prevent fixing the Gnome problem with default fonts for labels with a simple config file change. There may not be very many configuration files you need to or even can edit on Windoze, but it is unfortunately not exactly uncommon to have to piddle around with the registry on Windoze to get things working, and I fail to see a substantive difference between poking a setting in there you're not quite sure of versus editing a file and hoping you don't make a syntax error. Either way when you reboot you're sitting there with all your fingers and toes crossed hoping you haven't toasted the damn thing and that's just not an acceptable user experience.
And that's assuming you can find the right setting. Last week our support folks were engaged with a customer on Windoze who had changed some network configuration or other and managed to kill name lookups. It took quite a bit of effort to find the right places in the registry to poke for this.
Now, I'm sure there are plenty of Windoze users who have never had to do any registry hacking, but if so that's a matter of luck more than anything else.
The fact of the matter is that none of the systems in common use can really claim to be entirely free of the need to poke around under the pretty GUI hood to get things properly set up and keep them running over time. This certainly goes for Mac OS X as well, where there are plenty of settings that can only be changed through configuration files. (The one that really bugs me on Mac OS X is the media types to application mapping. This used to be configurable through Internet Config but now you have to download something like "Default Apps" to have a GUI interface for it. OTOH, at least there's a GUI available for it, which is more than I can say for some of the network settings that are only GUI-settable on Mac OS X Server.)
Only works on Firefox, but Firefox is the default for Ubuntu (though not Kubuntu). Even if you don't have Flash working, you can download any YouTube video and watch it in VLC.
Not easy or seamless, but not a deal breaker.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Maybe you could clue me in then. I tried installing MSO2003 on the latest wine available for Ubuntu Edgy not too long ago, and the installer failed out. Digging around seemed to suggest that the "solution" such as it was as rather ugly, so I gave up (still got XP on a different machine). Any chance you could point me to the 3 steps per install directions you found?
Cheers,
"What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
"A four-foot prune."
Windows and OS X have been copying features from Linux for years. In fact, all of them copy from everyone else.
/media instead of /Volumes).
Notice how the default Ubuntu desktop has a very Windows-like taskbar at the bottom, for minimized stuff, and a Windows-like system tray in the upper right, and an OS9-like menu bar at the top left... Notice how we also have virtual desktops, which are a hackish addon everywhere else but Leopard, which isn't out yet...
Notice how we also have things like package management, which does not exist ANYWHERE except in the Unix world, except (you guessed it) as hackish addons, or very proprietary things. That is, Apple has Software Update, which updates Apple software only. Windows has Microsoft Update, which is the same thing, but for Microsoft software. There's Fink for OS X, which is out of date, ugly, and hackish, and I forget what there is for Windows, other than cygwin, which hardly counts. And before any of these, we had apt on Linux.
We also had print to PDF in OpenOffice before anyone else.
We have a file/web browser (Konqueror) which is a bit like Windows/Internet Explorer (only done right), and we have external drives automagically appearing on the desktop (almost exactly like OS X, only they're mounted under
Need I go on?
The Linux distros that are meant for end-users are still way more flexible than Windows or OS X. For a quick example, install a different window manager or desktop environment -- even GNOME to KDE should show a difference, but try Fluxbox, WindowMaker, RatPoison, Enlightenment, or straight Beryl for something completely different. Or hit ctrl+alt+f1.
Sure, out of the box, they resemble Windows a bit more closely, but even the stupidly-conservative GNOME has things that Windows doesn't. KDE, while it superficially looks more like Windows, has even more -- out of the box, on Kubuntu, try alt+space and start typing something (like "konqueror") to see what I mean. Or pop a CD in -- on Windows, you can always eject the CD by punching the botton on the drive, but if it's in use, you get something resembling a BSOD. (It's been awhile, so this may be better by now...) On my Kubuntu, the physical "eject" button is intercepted by the OS, and if the CD is busy, it won't eject, but it will pop up a message telling you it couldn't, and exactly what programs are still using the CD. (And if you know what you're doing, you can always force-unmount it and then eject, or kill the processes involved.) This is actually somewhat borrowed from Macs, which have no physical eject button, only a button on the keyboard which is handled entirely in software.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
And on a related note, I know how to take screenshots, but what do I need to take a running video of my desktop? Is there a way to, say, record X traffic?
I think the instructional DVD should be really short and simple, and should basically involve what's required to get the install CD (or DVD) to boot. The rest should be contained on that disc, where it could be more interactive.
But if anyone wants to do this, pull together funding somehow, I'd like to help. Maybe we could even get it on the Dell preinstalls...
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
You can laugh. But I haven't stumbled on a Linux Geek off-campus in ten years. There are no local user groups, no custom system builders. No hands-on support for the newbie whatever.
Funny, I downloaded and burned the Feisty Fawn distro, but it doesn't grok Compaq Presario V6101US's nVidia stuff -- no screen. Not surprising, a lot of stuff doesn't know it's there, or else my Vista install screwed up firmware on this notebook, or sumpin'. There's a "safe graphics mode" but... I mean, but! I'm waiting for Gradual Giraffe, or whatever's next.
``Tension, apprehension & dissension have begun!'' - Duffy Wyg&, in Alfred Bester's _The Demolished Man_
How clueless do you have to be to put in a CD, then hit the next button 20 times? A monkey could install most Linux distros these days.
kinda doubt that networking was in there from the beginning - hence bsd sockets/netX releases. uucp doesn't count as networked. original arpa imp machines were specially coded machines.
there was also no concept of a "server" machine at the time - there were no clients for them to serve, just terminals
Years and Years and Years ago, everyone believed the world was flat. And it was. (FACT) what makes (FACT):
When people as a whole believe it is. This determines reality, when society doesn't take in count the truths around them they get confused and make there own reality.
Now we understand this lets take a step back and look at the bigger picture. Lets take Linux as a whole. The reason Linux has security holes is not because its less secure then Microsoft, its because people use unstable code releases and code that hasn't been fully tested. However on any active project in the Linux community, any bugs found are in fact patched in an extremely timely manner. The reason the system as a whole is 100x stabler then Windows, is because you have everyone around the world working on it, and the fact its built off standards. Where Microsoft might have a few thousand people working on a project they really have no interests in. Not saying people truly don't enjoy working on, and or working on Microsoft projects. But like anyone that takes an interest in a hobby knows, if you can do something you love and have no one else telling you what to do or when it has to be done you accomplish more.
Lets take Microsoft for an example. They are not about freedom in releases, and what I mean about that is, they are a corporate company that has deadlines. They have there own private Quality Insurance Engineers, that work on trying to find bugs in projects. Microsoft does not have the resources available to them (the world), like Linux does. They have deadlines, in which they only have so much time to get a product into a working form; in order to sell it, to show a profit. Microsoft tries to get more money by extending project features and bug fixes. Now Microsoft is smart on allot of levels, they are providing a service. However there greatest down fall is trying to , "Not share the market" they are trying to be not only #1 but the only "1". This is greed, this is there weakness. I'm sure Microsoft fixes allot of bugs. But who can remember when Microsoft XP was released, Microsoft XP shipped with 60+Million known bugs? Seriously.... It's amazing how the media has diluted everyone. It's amazing how no one sits back and questions things.
Now personally this is my reality, I believe that, Microsoft is doing this as a marketing gimmick. They are trying to control the market.
Lets get side tracked for a few seconds just to give everyone something to think of.
Who ever had a great idea that hasn't been patented yet? Why have you not taken action? Thats right its a money thing. How many great Idea's do you think Microsoft has stolen from their employees? Just because they work for the company and signed a contract?
Anyways, I'm leaving this as is, Please Ignore EVERYTHING I have wrote, because I'm only 24, And as you can tell by my writing I never graduated High School. However, at least I have one thing going for me, I try to think for myself.
Twitter was a little over the top, but the message is clear. If you did not understand, the problem can likely be found in the bony matter between your ears.
when she first published that initial article she was branded an idiot - predictably, I might add. But now everything's A-OK and she's picky and satisfied.
The only idiot here is you. The software has improved.
Yeah, I completely lose data all the time under "M$ Windoze" and have never lost any under any other OS. After all, backups are for pussies.
I'll bet you do, even after you spend a lot of time on backups. Everyone knows that WinDOS wants the whole hard drive. Why is it hard for you to understand the user's fears?
You are not just out of touch with GNU/Linux, you are out of touch with WinDOS and reality. I hope that's intentional.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
I vehemently disagree with your post, and hold up your opinion as an example of an elitist attitude that holds back easy computing for the masses, a paradigm that fortunately has been shattered by Microsoft (and others before them). Note that I have nothing against you personally, and you yourself probably hadn't been aware of a viewpoint such as mine, so think of this as a polite tap on your head with a cluestick.
Geeks have always prided themselves as being able to do things lay people couldn't, due to an increased understanding of how things work; computer geeks can, for example, install Linux, or release an IP address and reacquire a new DHCP lease. So, it would be easy to conclude that "you're not a real Power User" until you know how to go to a terminal and type "sudo dhclient -s 192.168.0.1 eth1".
But now you've fallen into the trap of defining a non-Power User by what s/he is not able to do, instead of what s/he wants to do. Within this trap, you (generic you, not personally) don't try to make things easy for non-Power Users because you assume that only Power Users would want to do those "geek things" anyway. "Why would anyone other than a Power User," you might say to yourself, "be interested in learning about the 'dhclient' command?"
Good question. Why would anyone want to learn about 'dhclient'? Why would a geek like you want to learn about 'dhclient'? Why, so that you can have more control over our Internet connections, of course, such as when you're trying to tell your recently de-hibernated computer to stop trying an old connection and reacquire a new DHCP address from the server.
Well, wouldn't a lay user also want to be able to reset a connection like that? Even someone who's not a Power User? Sure, it's a useful thing to do. So in MS Windows, you go to "Network Connections" and click on "Repair Connection", and Windows will release and reacquire a DHCP lease.
Wasn't that a feature only for Power Users? No, because it's useful for lay users, too. Previously, the complexity of the "dhclient" command limited this feature to Power Users, but it doesn't mean that lay users don't want to use it. And so, MS Windows makes this easy to use for users to do without making it of Power User complexity.
Similarly, installing Linux has previously been a Power User operation, only because it was hard to do, and not because it wasn't useful for lay people. Who wouldn't want a computer rookie to be able to install Linux, Ubuntu or otherwise, with a snap of the fingers? The rookie might be sick of viruses and MS Windows activation, and we geeks are tired of their computers being zombified. But until we realize that installing an OS is something ordinary people want, even though it has long been considered the exclusive domain of Power Users, no one is going to expend the effort to try to make it easier.
Fortunately, there are those within the OSS community who realize that it doesn't have to be this way, and have made it drop-dead easy to install Linux --or, heck, even easily run Linux from a RAM drive (what Knoppix pioneered). That is what the OP main article was driving at: the reviewer wants to see Linux easily installed for a lay user. Note that Ubuntu passed with flying colours; her two complaints (desktop fonts and OpenOffice.org) were not related to installation, although she got worried about her Win2k partition being overwritten.
Remember, if being a non-Power User meant not wanting the ability to do what Power Users did, we'd still have telephone operators making our household phone calls, and chauffeurs driving stick-shift cars for us. Contrast this with LibraNet Linux that I used a few years ago, the GUI of which featur
404555974007725459910684486621289147856453481154 in hex is "You sank my Battleship?"
[GPG key in journal]
That's probably the best answer to the kde vs gnome debate I've seen. I still think it's the wrong answer, or more to the point, a good answer to the wrong question.
The OP was concerned about all the new things they were going to have to figure out. The answer for people new to the game is not to explain every decision as it comes up. The answer is to eliminate all the decisions that are not absolutely essential to get up and running.
So without being asked, here are my answers to some random questions:
What distro should I use as a newbie?
If you've got a friend who is patient enough to help you out, and you like hanging out with them, use whatever they use. If you don't, use Ubuntu. It's currently the most popular, there are very active forums and paper books to help you out.
GNOME or KDE?
Not important. Use whatever is the default with your distro. Play around with that for a while. When you know enough to know there are things you don't like and can't fix, then you can start to experiment with other options. You will have enough to learn when you install linux for the first time without worrying about more than one desktop environment.
I guess just about everything else falls out from that. Best apps to start with: the defaults. If there isn't a default, go with the popular choices: OpenOffice, Firefox, Thunderbird. Make it easy on yourself, and work on new things as they come up. Once you know you don't like OpenOffice, you can take a look at AbiWord or Koffice or whatever, but these are not decisions that newbies need to be bombarded with on the first day.
Which is not to say you should actively avoid all the options available. It's really cool to have near instant access to a whole variety of different browsers, or mail clients, or whatever, and to be able to play around with them freely. But those of us with a bit more experience need to be very careful about not overwhelming newbies with choices that can and should be put off until they've settled in a bit.
The worst thing that could happen to a new user is to get worried about deciding between gnome vs kde, and asking google for advice. Next thing you know they've found one of Linus's gnome flame-fests and we all look like loons. Everyone suspects were fanatics already -- with a bit of effort newbies might go days or even weeks before they confirm this suspicion, but we'll all have to pull together for that to happen :)
yp.
Yes, actually, I was kidding... thus the LOL... that was exactly my point. Why is Linux held up to a higher standard than Windows on the customer end when Windows consistently leaves their customers out in the cold. At least Linux has community support by default.
My Babylon
I wouldn't say that I disagree with anything above. I want it to be easy to use. However there are a few things which SHOULD be hard, those that when fumbled will render your computer useless. That way Mom, Grandma, whoever does not stumble across them in the GUI and poof, no more hard drive, poof, no more data.
Installing the OS is one of these things. If (esp at this point) it could ever be considered "too hard" for you (also the generic you), you shouldn't be doing it. Heck, why not give them a button to install a root account that auto-logs in. Just saying. Everything else, all the functional stuff that is sometimes built into esoteric command-line for no apparently good reason (other than sheer lack of resources vs importance), I would wholeheartedly agree. I'm a power to the people guy.
I just think the welcoming role of friendly neighborhood linux geek shouldn't disappear. I had a buddy at work who showed me around (well mainly pointed me toward some good resources and turned me loose, I did do my install myself, and compiled my first kernel on my own, and again and again and again, until I stumbled onto Ubuntu..)
I don't really know what my point is now..
My Babylon
I have to go find a few links, and I'll get right back to you. Don't go anywhere, OK?
Web2.0: I love when people Flickr my cuil and digg my boingboing until my google is reddit and I start to yahoo
What's next, playing "good zealot/bad zealot" while shilling your own posts?
It just cracks me up when you claim I lack "honesty". Classic. Just classic.
Tons of break-in attempts everyday, and my Slackware just resists all of them.
;)
I'm glad you think so; I take that as a compliment!
Unix is a far more secure platform than Windows; and it has been proved since it's more exposed to heavy attacks all the time.
No, all you've established, if we can call "stating something" to be establishing it, is that servers with "well known open ports" are more secure than desktops with users installing software, visiting potentially malicious sites, etc. And frankly it doesn't matter what ports are open; what matters is that you know what ports are open, and why. It should go without saying that this knowledge is much more common in serverland than in userland (and it could be argued that it's more common among Unix administrators than Windows, at least historically).
I don't really care (nor am I qualified) enough to do my own proper research, but I compared search results for Linux and Windows privilege escalation. A search on SecurityFocus returned results in similar proportions: Linux and Windows.
Of course this is not evidence of anything other than more discovered bugs returning those particular keywords, and I'm not going to argue that one OS is more secure than another -- I only assert that your comparison is inadequate.
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
OK, you are wrong, and here's why:
s word-in-ubuntu
"A default Ubuntu install doesn't expose any open ports"
True, but misleading: A default Ubuntu install doesn't offer any server-type services, so far as I know, so it doesn't have to open any ports.
Also, is it still true that a default Ubuntu install doesn't have a password around the root account? http://www.ubuntux.org/how-to-change-the-root-pas
"Windows is designed to expose hundreds of ports"
Care to list them all?
"none of which can safely be closed because that would break random bits of software that Windows depends on"
Care to list all of those?
The truth is, as best I recall, a default Windows XP install has 4 or 5 open ports, all related to SMB and Windows Networking - and anyone with a clue wouldn't ever allow those to be exposed to the Internet - that's what hardware NAT/firewalls/routers are for.
And, from a home perspective - every ISP I've ever dealt with filters those at their routers. I know that Time-Warner still does, on their Roadrunner network, and as far as I know, so does Verizon.
I'd be willing to bet that just about every ISP does as well - they'd be foolish not to.
I'm not saying that your installation, settings, etc... aren't resisting all the attacks, I'm just saying that you can't know that it is, and may not know when it isn't.
And let me tell you, servers with a fixed IP address, open well known ports listening, and lots of domains pointing to it are the most common target. I have a fixed IP address, on a Unix machine, and you should just see my logs. Tons of break-in attempts everyday, and my Slackware just resists all of them. 99% of these break-in attempts are portscans. Any machine on the net, running any OS, fixed IP or not, is subjected to this barrage on a daily basis. The people doing this generally don't care what kind of machines they get in their botnet, they'll be used for the same purpose one way or another. Desktop machines with windows with variable IP addresses are the target of bots. Unix servers with fixed IP addresses are the target of real crackers and wannabes trying to break in 24/7.
Unix is a far more secure platform than Windows; and it has been proved since it's more exposed to heavy attacks all the time. Any machine connected to the net has the same exposure to these general attacks. The difference is not Unix/Windows/whatever; the difference is the setup and administration. Most servers are managed by professionals who know how to configure, maintain and monitor a machine properly. Most desktops are not.
"Don't break my arse, my bargey wargey arse, I don't think my pants would understand..."
Ubuntu is fantastic if you manage to have a chunk of hardware which works out of the box with it, if however you don't you're in a world of pain (then again all linux distro's suffer this)
I've been fiddling with Ubuntu as a mid-range user since 5.04 and had all kinds of joys and problems with it.
See initially my ipw2200 card wouldn't work at all.
Then I figured out how to get it working, WEP only mind you but working.
Eventually I got an RT2500 which worked easier, but still fiddly and WPA = pain.
I also picked up an Atheros PCMCIA card, this worked for my intended purpose (wardriving) but again WPA was a fiddle.
With each subsequent release of Ubuntu the way to get things working has changed, I've had to re-read updated how-to's and so on at the Ubuntu forums.
I ended up sticking with 6.06 because that particular version I could hook up my ethernet cable for internet and use my atheros card for wardriving my apartment block, however upgrading the version of firefox, well frankly I was embaressed at how tricky it was, I tried using Synaptic but it didn't give me a newever version and I knew if I marked all upgrades it would give me 6.10 at the time.
I ended up finding another chap on the Ubuntu forums who had exactly the same problem, some guy came to our rescue and gave us a script to run, I felt like a tool but for the life of me I couldn't do it manually, I ran his script and it worked fine, I don't think the chap rooted us, very good of him, great community.
Now another problem, if I recall was when I was on 6.06 and DID try to grab the 6.10 updates, it borked my ability to use kismet, I think there was a driver change for the Atheros card.
(Don't quote me exactly but I recall something which was working before I upgraded, then - dead)
Either way some of you guys post how awesome it is your parents are working fine or grandparents and you just remotely update them once a week, I have to cast some doubt on that based on my experiences, once it's working don't fix it seems to be the best for me.
Finally to sum up my problems, I've grabbed 7.04, it looks fantastic, this new graphical effect is nice and I'm not normally one for graphical effects (Vista, ugh) however there's 'glitchy' lines on the ATI Mobility 9600 range of laptop cards (I believe specific to Dell's revision) ARGH!
(More information here: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=414740 )
So I have to use the bad drivers, I forget the term, I think it's closed source or binary but there's a different name used for them (restricted?). this kills the nice 3D effects.
A chap sent me a link to a tutorial on how to get the 3D effects working in XGL (or something?) but good lord, it wasn't a short tutorial, I haven't had the balls to try it yet.
I like Ubuntu, I like it being free.
I like the interface, I like Firefox and Open office, but honestly I can't 100% switch to it yet, maybe I don't research hard enough but I just simply don't find it works well enough 'out of the box' for me to switch on over, the other HUGE problem for linux is that I can just plain old re-boot back to Windows if something goes wrong, it's so easy to be lazy. (sorry but it's true)
Here's what I WANT
A recent version of Ubuntu, using my RT2500 or IPW2200 minipci card working with full WPA on my network at 54mbit.
My Atheros card working with Kismet, Aircrack-ng, Aircrack-ptw and I guess optionally WPA - but primarily just a WEP hunter.
Ability to playback video's including recent codecs, examples *cough* Sopranos episodes or Mythbusters for example.
Ability to use Azureus (pretty sure I can do that now)
Hibernate / suspend to ram / disk ability.
Ability to connect to and map Samba shares.
Optional:
3D desktop effects
Burn DVD-Video, ISO's
Emulate Windows or VM-Ware / run a 'real' Windows in a Window for things which require it.
Sync my T-630 phone with a good calendar package and sync said calendar pac
I use a secure and blind black box as a log server, they can't cover their tracks, once something has been written to the server, they can't modify it.
I have an openbsd firewall in front of my machine, it runs from read-only media, also logs to the black box.
I know exactly what happend, you _may_ compromise my machine, but i will notice.
WTF am I doing replying to an AC at 5 A.M on a Friday night?
However installing a new Microsoft brand webcam on Microsoft XP required getting on the net (on dial up for that machine) and hunting for drivers and a version of directX that would set up because the install CD was incomplete and crashed consistantly during the install process. I've seen the same for printers, scanners and a variety of other hardware where for some reason the install media does not do the job. Many here will have plenty of other examples.
For the same user experience the 64 bit browser without flash could just show a page full of text with BLINK tags.
I liken debian to my Honda Civic, or maybe even to public transportation with a yearly pass. Get in, show your pass/turn the ignition, and maybe every year and a half, buy a new pass or drop it off for maintenance for a couple days. Not as attractive as this year's model, but reliable to the point where you rarely think about it.
With Linux I can google for a problem and copy/paste the solution into a terminal. It's much more tedious trying to duplicate someone's sequence of menu selections. Sometimes I think there's a program running in the background that randomly shuffles the menu options.
Ah yes, here's the thread I was looking for. And from that same thread, here's some of your best work, proof that you're shilling your own posts and more of the same fun and games.
What kind of response is that, you dumbass? Did you even read what I wrote? If you're going to insult me at least try to do it with some intelligence?
You know, I just realized who you remind me of. Rosie O'Donnell blabbering away on The View with a 30-minute bullshit pulpit that serves no other purpose than to piss people off. Your never-ending FUD and bullet point cockslap "this is how it is" preaching should be hoisted up on YouTube for the masses to laugh at. Ever thought about doing a podcast?
Web2.0: I love when people Flickr my cuil and digg my boingboing until my google is reddit and I start to yahoo
I don't understand why plugins could not run in 32b mode while the browser is in 64b mode..
The plugin could run in a separated process for example (and that's probably a very good idea when you're calling some alien code that you cannot maintain: if you load in the same process, it could crash the browser).
You'd be right if they were wrong, but sadly enough for the >90% MS user base Linux is better than Windows on every front, except where it counts - 3rd party support (software, sales etc.)
Xenu loves you!
What is the point of all this hyperbole and creative spelling?
You'll have to be more specific to get an answer to that.
The rest of your questions are mostly bullshit and flamebait that I'm not going to bite and I suspect you are some kind of paid PR drone. If you don't like free software the only reason you can be here is to harass others. You seem to be good enough at the game that you can moderate stuff like the above as something that people should read. This indicates some sophistication, perhaps a botnet to game the system. In any case, your motives are just as sad as what you do. I'm tired of the deadzo account, so I'm going to catalog some of your more outrageous insults to the free software community and that will be the last you will hear from me.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
I will tell you MY experience. Windows XP had no problems with my sound, video, or network. Linux did. XP did have problems with my printer. So did Linux.
IME, XP installs have been smoother, overall, than Linux installs (depending on the hardware, I've had Linux installs that were better than Doze, but usually not).
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
Gee, why don't you heap a little more condescension on there while you're at it?
Get the hint, fool: She's converted. You "won". I suppose you expected her to be a Linux user from the womb, but not everybody is born into the Cult Of Twitter.
Let go of that hatred and spite for one lousy stinking minute, and celebrate without that contemptuous sneer on your face.
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If, when you are doing something, you see somebody with an emotional facial expression, you will be more likely to memorize that something (i.e. be able to recall it later). People with increased testosterone levels demonstrate an increase in that response (i.e. their memorization/recall is further increased).
My guess is that you do not use outlining as a tool for organizing thoughts, papers, presentations.
Yes, one can use bullets and numbering to make a traditional manual outline, but it is the buttons to promote/demote paragraphs (and selections of paragraphs) within the outline as well as move selections forwards and backwards (up and down) within the greater text that make the feature quite useful. One can also hide (or display) the outline characters within the finished text.
A second good use of this feature (also missing from OOo) is that within MS Office one can create an outline in Word and import it directly into PowerPoint - presto! slides with text. And, vice versa, from a slide presentation to outlined text document.
Within PowerPoint itself one can see the presentation text as an outline - moving items within the outline makes the corresponding moves within and among the slides.
There is one Linux jotter application that I know of which utilizes the outlining functionality with buttons, gjots2 [ http://bhepple.freeshell.org/gjots2 ]
The outling functionality (but without the graphic buttons) was present in a great DOS wordprocessor back in the very early 90's, Borland's Sprint. So, must I take it that one can patent the idea of using graphic buttons to move items within an outline?
Since I could no longer find it on LinuxWorld, here's the original article from the Wayback Machine.
He effected a bored affect.
"The real problem is she installed 64-bit without understanding the implications of such."
Go to the Ubuntu download page ... if you know, as I did, that you have a 64-bit AMD microprocessor, which download would you pick? They make no mention of buggy.
Your average computer user thinks they have "a gigga hurts of ram." They have no idea if the processor inside their machine is an Intel or an AMD. All this 'amd64' or 'i386' stuff is nothing but garbage in garbage out to them.
.../i386/ (rather than -i386-) for the newbies. Advanced users already know that means "hey there's probably things other than 32-bit Intel 80386 compatible builds available" and will go up one directory to see what's available. Newbies will use what they see.
Distros who want to be newbie friendly should offer one download option: "Here's the (plain old i386) image that will work in the most places possible." Bury an "advanced users click here" in the page. Or even just change your file structure to reflect
So to phrase it as someone else did: if she knows she has a 64-bit AMD processor (not to mention her references to partitions, etc) she isn't a newbie. She knows enough to be dangerous, without knowing enough to realize she's being so.
Slashdot Patriotism: We Support our Dupes!
Last time I looked, 200,000 was larger than 10,000. Instead of proving me wrong, you've demonstrated how right I am.
Good, inexpensive web hosting
For its purpose, I thought that this was well written article. However, I'd have to agree with some other : 1. Testing for an "average user experience" on a custom 64 bit box is unrealistic.
I would think the average user has an older, off the shelf Dell or Gateway PC and is not running 64 bit.
2. The requirements do not hold true for Win XP, which makes it unfair to hold Ubuntu to them.
I have been using GNU/Linux since 2000 and I am not a super technical person (I just like to read tech news). Sure, I've had problems where I needed to search for a solution, ask a friendly nerd for help, or even read the manual, but those have been few. No matter what OS you use, you will need tech support at some time. How much time do Windows users spend calling tech support?
WARNING - Personal Narrative Follows:
A few months ago, my mother managed to trash her Win XP installation by messing with some security settings and forgetting the admin password. She called me for help. I explained to her that I didn't know anything about it, but she insisted. I got a password cracker and tried to get her in, but to no avail. So, we went for a fresh install of Win XP. I read everything beforehand and it said that there would be no problem saving her documents and personal files. We install, choose the option to migrate the files. I'll skip the deatils of all the problems encountered, but 6 hours later, we boot into the new Win XP, and her files were gone. Several years worth of data - gone. I consoled her, gave her an Ubuntu Live CD and told her if she wanted more help from me, she needed a better OS. A week later, my mother, the most computer phobic woman in the world, installed in herself. It migrated her files for her without a problem. It worked out of the box. the only thing she needed help with was installing the drivers for her wireless card, which she would have needed on any OS.
So, the moral of the story is - if my mother can install Ubuntu, anyone can.
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." - Mohandas Gandhi
It can - take a look at http://gwenole.beauchesne.info/projects/nspluginwr apper/ - a wrapper that enables the use of 32-bit plugins on a 64-bit browser.
Works fine with flash on my machine. For gentoo it is just a matter of emerging nspluginwrapper and flash.
But why this wrapper isn't bundled with FF by default?
It seems dumb: I've read many complaint about plugins from people using FF compiled in 64b mode.