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Why Web Pirates Can't Be Touched
gwoodrow writes "Forbes has a brief article about, essentially, the ultimate futility of fighting online pirates. From the article: 'As the world's largest repository of BitTorrent files, ThePirateBay.org helps millions of users around the world share copyrighted movies, music and other files — without paying for them ... That's illegal, of course — at least it is in the U.S. But when Time Warner's (nyse: TWX — news — people ) Warner Bros. studio accused them of breaking U.S. copyright law in 2005, the pirates gleefully reminded the movie company that they didn't live in America, but rather in the land of vikings, reindeer, Aurora Borealis and cute blond girls.' The article also touches on the many YouTube clones and AllofMP3.com."
...there aren't enough experienced online ninjas.
u-bend
It assumes that copyright law around the world will not eventually be in line with U.S. copyright law as per the wishes of the *AA
...it's because they all listen to MC Hammer. Without DRM, of course.
the land of vikings, reindeer, Aurora Borealis and cute blond girls.'
North Korea?
There should be a moderation category "Dumbest Comment EVER"
at least remove the stock ticker info when copying?
At some point the US will get pressured by the RMIA which will in turn force there home country to Hand them over to the US, It happened with the blogger from AU.
Just admit you're stealing. I would have so much less a problem with it if you didn't go down the "digital copy is not theft since I didn't deprive anyone of anything physical". You did deprive them - of money. If at least you'd admit it, I wouldn't care so much. It's just the stupid logic you guys use that is so infuriating.
"the record labels have launched a lawsuit, asking for $150,000 for each stolen file, totaling $1.65 trillion [against allofmp3.com]"
How on earth can these people justify that figure? It's just insane, I hope the shit goes hard in the bastards
....
Should I point out thepiratebay doesn't really host any copyrighted material or did that argument get old already?
Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
"Printer friendly" version.
It's also much more eyeball-friendly.
That sort of touching! I was thinking either the pirates were very ticklish or there were sanitary issues involved.
Please note for future reference
FTA:
From June to October 2006 alone, the Recording Industry Association of America says that 11 million songs were downloaded from the site. AllofMP3 claims those sales adhered strictly to Russian law, but that doesn't satisfy the RIAA; the record labels have launched a lawsuit, asking for $150,000 for each stolen file, totaling $1.65 trillion.
I'm sorry, did they say $1.65 trillion? The RIAA is off their rocker for sure. That much money is going to have to involve a war.
If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy.
But could you please justify and explain the statement you made: "You did deprive them - of money."
Please cite your references and explain any statistics quoted in your explanation. Please also quantify how much money the **AA have been deprived of by TPB. Please do this so that we can forevermore trust that the **AA member companies declining revenues and train-wreck-about-to-happen business model is doomed because of TPB and others like them.
If you can prove that this is driving the **AA member companies out of business beyond any doubt, I will start downloading music and movies illegally to help ensure a quick end to the **AAs of the world.
Thank you
Support NYCountryLawyer RIAA vs People
What irony if they had just said... "we live in the Land of the Free, not the U.S."
(note to those who refer to the USA as America. America is not a country)
Honestly, who is really loosing out on pirating? Some would argue the musicians are. Last I checked Metallica (oops just violated the DRM, thought about them without having a license) STILL makes more money than any pirate. If the group is small all they should care about is that their music is getting more exposure. Some would argue the movie industry. I wont even go into the elevenity billion dollars the studios are still making despite pirating. If they would make more of a effort to get the movie to DVD quicker there would be less pirating imho. Who wants to take the chance of blowing 50$ (without snacks) for your family to see a movie that sucks, which quite a few now days do. Really though, when did the entertainment industry stop being about entertainment, and more about milking every cent out of it they can.
The **AA could try paying danegeld.
[Insert pithy quote here]
""Forbes has a brief article about, essentially, the ultimate futility of fighting online pirates."
So basically pirates will never suffer the "effects" (as in cause and...) of their actions. How about the "effects" as it relates to the innocents caught in the cross-fire?
"the pirates gleefully reminded the movie company that they didn't live in America, but rather in the land of vikings, reindeer, Aurora Borealis and cute blond girls."
I'm moving. Vikings, blonde girls, AND pirates? Irresistible!
so has anyone said how much money is lost by this. i know i would be pissed if i was a multimillionaire and i could not afford another ferrari or mansion for my collection. now they are going to have to rough it.
It wasn't AUH though, so it'd make a lousy story submission as is.
Belief is the currency of delusion.
Surely two countries have gone to war for less than $1.65 trillion. On a side note, let's not forget that Russia has oil. [and don't call me Shirley]
Yea there were days when nations would go to war over just a few billion. But now it has to be at least a trillion.
Understood as the cost of war itself in in the hundreds of billions a year, so you do risk losing your investment if the war goes on too long.
May I remind you all about chufter.com, the one and only uncensored video sharing site. absolutely no censorship on the grounds of pornography, racism, people dying. Youtube takes movies down all the time for mere copyright infringement.
That's cool, now I have a defense if 'somebody else' pirates with my user name, "Those damn hackers!"
They certainly don't care about technicalities when serving my ISP with several DMCA takedown notices for my IP address, for downloading TV shows from piratebay.org.
The shows in question were over the air broadcast TV from major networks in the US. You know, the type that is normally protected under the timeshifting clause? You know, they type I never would have had to pay for in the first place, since local networks broadcast them over-the-air? And in addition they have no proof I shared any copies of any complete files ( I don't EVER seed complete files. Yes it sucks, but it is my ass I'm protecting.) So my IP on a tracker alone is enough for them to take action.
Worst part is the shows were horrible drivel downloaded by my girlfriend. Not even anything remotely entertaining. Actually that's not so bad as my ISP telling me that the RIAA has a very very low false positive rate on takedowns and that they have no reason to believe the RIAA is wrong on these ever. And up to that point I thought they were a very good indy ISP. My opinion of them dropped several notches on that comment alone.
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
Huh -- not sure if I botched that or if the link changed after after I posted. It sounds like the reported story did change, but who knows.
How much of that cost would be paid even during peace time, many of the solders would still be solders, and most of the equipment would still be owned, so I'm not sure that you can attribute all of the costs of war to the war (I think the key question is, "is having a military a sunk cost for a country?").
Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
Thank you Forbes! I didn't know about "sites like Alluc.org, VideoHybrid.com, Peekvid.com, TVlinks.co.uk and YouTVPC.com"!
Okay, TPB doesn't host any pirated content, it merely points to pirated content. The *AA contends that's still bad. Whatever.... But what about Forbes? They just told me about all these other sites I didn't know about. Forbes just provided me a directory to illegal content. Doesn't that open them up to lawsuits? Journalistic freedoms don't apply when aiding a "crime?"
"You're not balancing your internal energy with the environment." -Gary Busey
No war for O(nline) I(nterdiction) L(aws)!!!!!!
Didnt Dubya go to war for 30 pieces of silver?
but that doesn't satisfy the RIAA; the record labels have launched a lawsuit, asking for $150,000 for each stolen file, totaling $1.65 trillion.
:(
Wait, someone's giving free trillions? I want one, where do I get it? Are there any left? One trillion, come on!
Damn it
From TFA: "That rankles big media outfits like Sony"
So, the Japanese firm Sony doesn't like it that a Netherlands-based web site that has no US presence won't follow US law?
"Base your company in Russia, steal music from American labels and sell it cheaply."
So, the "American" labels (like Sony?) don't have the use of their music? After all, if it's stolen... I mean, somebody stole my car last year and I didn't have use of it until tye cops recovered it. Pirates are taking the master disks and all copies of the work?
"The Pirate Bay's copyright sabotage campaign"
This is a news article? REAL news outlets don't use inflamitory language like that anywhere but the editorial page - and then only when it's Ann Coulter doing the editorializing.
"'If the Swedish government presses charges, they'll lose. If they don't, the U.S. government will be mad at them,' Sunde says. 'They're in quite a pickle.'
So, he might have added, are the world's copyright holders."
And why would that be, when all the studies say that rather than hurting sales, this bolsters them? Will they be in a pickle because Indie musicians will have a fighting chance against Britney, and Star Wreck might beat out some Hollywood blockbuster?
TFA was written by your present overlords. I, for one, do NOT welcome them.
-mcgrew
Because "stealing" is illegal in the US, the US govt could make laws to prevent credit card companies from processing transactions involving the purchase of these illegitimate MP3's (allofmp3.com). Didn't the US just pass laws to prevent such transactions for the offshore gambling websites?
However it's not actually stealing. It's copyright infringement. And unlike gambling, copyright infringement is not illegal.
That's why it's illegal for me to use my Mastercard to gamble online, but I'm free to use it to buy from AllOfMP3.com. There really is nothing the govt can do short of forcing ISPs to block the IP range of these "pirate" websites. Do we have a politician stupid enough to even attempt that legislation? Something tells me that in California, we do, and it's just a matter of time.
Interestingly, the estimated GDP of the entire Russian Federation in 2006 was $1.727 trillion using the purchasing parity power scale; nominal GDP is even less at $979 billion in 2006 [1]. Somehow, even if they win, I don't think the RIAA is going to be collecting on that bill anytime soon.
A fair part of it would be, no doubt about it, but one of the big costs of a war is getting all that stuff that soldiers need to the war zone. A modern army has a long tail and almost all of that stuff is both heavy and consumable. Add to that the fact that you have to replace equipment at a faster rate (especially in desert environments with fine dust-like sand like Iraq and Saudi Arabia), you're going through a lot more ammo than you would in a peacetime training environment and the fact that you're having to pay your soldiers hazardous duty pay and a lot of little costs really start to add up. Especially if you're granting no-bid contracts to your buddies.
That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.
I really meant that in the sense of, "If you want to collect that kind of cash (i.e., 12.5% of our 2006 GDP), you'll have to come over here and take it yourself."
If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy.
It's not stealing based on one assumption, that every single person that downloaded would not have purchased at the rate set by the copyright holder.
In the heyday of Napster my father downloaded every piece of music he could find. He is your Joe Blow six pack user, and in todays market he purchases legally via itunes. Given the choice he would always choose to download the free copy, but when that avenue is removed from him he purchases.
That is lost revenue in any sense of the word. Sure there will be comments made that it's not theft, which is a grey area of interpretation. If you could confidently say 100% of the people download would not have purchased anyways, you are correct. But if even 1 person would have purchased except for the option of download for free, they have lost revenue and it could be construed as theft.
The use of the word stealing is inflammatory.
I would love allofmp3.com to sue the RIAA & major US labels for that.
The problem is Forbes is a business magazine (shill ?). To them everything not being bought at full price is stealing.
Allofmp3 operates under Russian laws and operates by the letter of the law. We should not be trying to influence the worlds by having them follow our laws.
The RIAA is pissed because it can't collect from the agency over there. It is not Allofmp3's problem it is the RIAA's problem. Deal with it like a normal company would , don't buy try and buy the people to fight your battle with my tax money ! Use your own damn money.
With today's global economy, we outsource all these tech jobs, why can't we outsource other things over the internet as well ? Or is this global economy only so business can make more money off the little guys.
Bunch of BS spewing lawyers will lead to the downfall of the USA. All hail King BUSH !!!
This package Does Not Contain a Winner
Wow.
It's not inevitable; it's already old news.
Time and again it's been proven that one can never "erase" anything or "ban" anything from the Internet. There's no way around that. When will the media and big companies start dealing with that? Another 20 years down the road maybe?
*pinky finger to mouth*
WTF is a bloody stock symbol doing in a /. summary?
But when Time Warner's (nyse: TWX -- news -- people ) Warner Bros. studio accused them...
It's annoying enough to trip over them when reading mainstream US news sites. Can we please keep them away from Slashdot? If I need the stock symbol for a company I either already know it because I'm an investor and it's my job to be elbow-deep in such arcana, or I can Google for it. If you really want to add it, use a bloody hyperlink instead of making the text unreadable with parenthesised shit.
Given that you can get a CD on iTunes for -- what -- $10? Seems like they are asking for 15 THOUSAND times more money than they're owed, assuming they're owed anything at all.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
as valid.
not only every country's representatives are presold suck-ups to big buck. surprise, surprise, RIAA member crooks, you might have bought laws in united states for harassing "the people", who are the reason united states was founded for, but, look, your walled does not leverage any weight in many other countries. oh you poor riaa crooks you.
Read radical news here
Fine sand in Iraq and Saudi Arabia ! No way , the army recruitment center told me it was like Miami Beach there. And he even said I could play FPS games all day and night !
This package Does Not Contain a Winner
RMS is a bit rabid for my tastes, but he does make a point to be precise about language, and refuses to talk to people who won't be similarly precise.
So: It is NOT theft, or stealing. It is copyright infringement.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Actually 99% of people on earth can cope quite easily with the concept that if something is created by someone, and they wish to sell it, and other people copy it for free or resell it without compensating the owner, then yup, that is theft. You can argue about definitions all you want, but it just makes you look like your trying to rationalise something that you know is wrong. If musicians create music you like you SHOULD be paying them (if they want paying). By paying musicians you incentivise them to keep at it, rather than selling the guitar and working in wal mart, which is apparently what slashdot posters would rather their fave artists had to do.*
*by the way, not all musicians are millionaires, so dont trot out any of that "madonna doesnt need any more cash* straw man bullshit.
DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
It would be hilarious if they did try to collect that 1.65 trillion. I can just imagine it:
AllOfMp3/PirateBay/et al: "We don't charge anything near that for our service, we just make enough on ad banners to justify paying for most of our server accounts and bandwidth"
RIAA: "Then we will force you all into servitude for the rest of your lives, and your children's lives!"
AllOfMp3/PirateBay/et al: "But we're geeks! There's a very high likelihood that we won't ever have kids!"
RIAA: (thinking) "Hmm...this may be true, and if it is, we'll probably only be able to collect on several million, and that's nowhere near 1.65 trillion...guess we'll have to go back to backdooring college kids and grannies computers again, and up the ante to 150k per file"
The scariest, yet most hilarious, thing about that is that from all indications, that could actually happen. (I say hilarious, because it shows exactly how insane and out of touch with reality the RIAA really is)
Whenever someone captures a web-pirate, they demand web-parle.
Well, it's really more of a guideline than a rule...
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
That's because the pirates think in absolute terms. They think that they are in a place that will not change it's laws (or the interpretation thereof) in response to international pressure. Firstly, let's not pretend that these are some sort of freedom fighters striking at an evil empire. They're crooks, stealing from people, and crooks don't get much sympathy. Second, don't think for a second that if their country needed something from the US, Europe, etc that they wouldn't crack down on Pirate Bay like a swat team.
People who think they know everything really piss off those of us that actually do.
But if even 1 person would have purchased except for the option of download for free, they have lost revenue and it could be construed as theft.
Using that logic, anytime I purchase something for a price cheaper than the absolute maximum price I'd be willing to pay, that's theft b/c the seller has "lost revenue". I hope you don't use coupons or buy one get one free b/c by your definition that's theft.
I laughed at the weak who considered themselves good because they lacked claws.
Minnesota defies it's stereotype. It's not that bad of a stereotype, though, so I won't argue. And like many stereotypes, it's based on some truth.
www.cgstock.com
It's because they be got web scurvy!
Arrr! I told ye to eat your fruit!
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
you typed this:
you probably meant to type this:
it's a pretty common mistake, those keys are so close together. i accidentally type that all the time.
sarcasm:
-noun
1. harsh or bitter derision or irony.
I have no issues paying the musicians, and do so in a heartbeat whenever possible. But I always think twice before paying a record label anything.
The creator of this post (Jacob Smith) hereby releases it, and all of his other posts, into the public domain.
The RIAA is waging a war, yes?
This post expresses my opinion, not that of my employer. And yes, IAAL.
so you only listen to music from indie bands? or do you 'overrule' those bands that you like who chose to sign a record deal? Or do you pirate the music but send cash in the mail to the bands?
DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
That's a nice little anecdote, but it doesn't prove anything. ITunes' success merely shows how people are willing to pay for something when it's priced competitively and relatively convenient to use. DRM-encumbered CDs and DVDs are neither. Itunes' $.99 for one song you like is a much better deal than $15 for an album that has 8-10 songs on it, with about one or two you actually like. But ITunes still needs some work in the "convenient" department, which is why it's not doing as well yet as it could. And once they start making old movies available for download at about $1 and new releases for $5 they'll be on the right track to eliminating movie piracy.
Big corporations love it that they can move their operations to India, China or Indonesia and thereby avoid having to apply US (or EU) labor laws to their workers because this saves them a lot of money.
Strange how when the shoe is on the other foot (i.e. consumers circumventing laws that benefit big corporations rather than corporations circumventing laws that benefit workers) it does not fit so well, eh?
You know what they say, "never give a sucker an even break"
I'm all for the abstract idea of free trade but today's implementation of free trade means free to initiate a race to the bottom
Free trade will truly be free and fair when there are global labor laws and freely floating currencies ( cough RMB cough ).
Artists are really caught in the middle at this point. The organizations that claim to represent their interests have violated the public trust and the public interest, by extending copyright into perpetuity. They have thus destroyed the basis on which copyright is granted in the first place. The social contract is broken, and thus, natural rights take over. The natural right of free speech. This is not a case of not liking their distribution license, they have cast off the right to even bargain such points. Artists must (and many are) divorce themselves from the organization that have created this situation if they wish to regain legitimate right to copyrights. For it is now broken.
However it's not actually stealing. It's copyright infringement.
No. It's not. In Russia, the law allows allofmp3.com to operate by making use of a compulsory licensing scheme, not unlike what the copyright board wants to foist upon internet radio (though, in that case, the costs are absolutely outrageous, and intended to shut operators down). So, allofmp3.com pays some fee to the Russian copyright whozits, and thus they are allowed to operate legally. Calling this "stealing" or "copyright infringement" is plain and simply wrong, and author of the article is clearly showing their bias by reporting it as such.
and the way you supprot and encourage this is to BUY the music from the bands who have gone independent and sell direct. make them such success stories, that they tell their fellow artists that they do not needs a record deal at all, but can do the same thing themselves.
I wish people would do this. heck, i wish people bought my games direct rather than through yahoo, which takes half my money. But I suspect that 99% of people using sites like those described do so because they can take stuff for free, and reckon they wont get caught. Until people who want copyright and music industry reform actually start lobbying the hardcore pirates not to distribute copies of independent bands music, this will never change, and musicians will rightfully feel that the pirates dont give a shit.
DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
I agree. There's a difference between the legal definition of "theft" and the general use of the term. We might say someone "stole my seat", "stole my girlfriend", "stole my joke", "stole my job", or "stole my song". None of these imply the criminal definition of theft, that someone broke into your house and ran off with your joke or your girlfriend.
It's kind of inflamatory, and it's certainly rhetoric to call unauthorized use "theft". But it's meaningless to point out it's not really "theft" under the law (which is a state law and can vary from state to state anyway).
Judge Mark Wernick of Minnesota District Court ruled as such in a lawsuit filed against me for calling a corporation's use of my photo in their phone book ad "intellectutal property theft". They claimed defamation because they didn't break into my house and steal the photo (they just swiped it from my website). They did not prevail on that point, although the case isn't resolved yet (Vilana Financial's copyright infringement).
www.cgstock.com
How is that possibly equivelant? In both cases no one is being unwillingly deprived of anything. And they are still being compensated. In the OP's case, they are stating that depriving someone of revenue - against their will - is theft. Neither of your examples fit.
The retailer is willingly accepting a per sale loss during a sale (manufacturer compensated in full) or the manufacturer is willingly accepting a per sale loss with a coupon (retailer is compensated in full).
Perhaps you meant to say this?
Using that logic, anytime I take something without permission, for a price cheaper than the seller is distributing it for, that's theft b/c the seller has "lost revenue". I hope you don't shoplift, or switch price tags at stores to get better prices, b/c by your definition that's theft.
I've been downloading stuff for quite some time - years, even - via Bittorrent... so much better than it's various predecessors, save perhaps the original Napster. Nary a problem. Until I happened to grab my first-ever torrent from The Pirate Bay's servers. Within a week, I got a DMCA takedown notice forwarded from my cable company, for the single item I had gotten from a Pirate Bay-served torrent. Charter, nice guys, let me off with a warning rather than shutting me off. Told them it must have been this WAP I had on my network, and I've since disconnected it. I've also since formatted (slow-format) my drive and done a fresh reinstall. I may or may not have things that may be infringing - but they're gonna be much harder to find and easier to secret away from the premises, should a subpoena show up at my door.
Maybe it's just me, but I'll be staying away from the Pirate Bay for a while... and I hope no-one minds that I'm posting anonymously (wink)
do you do this? personally? Most bands have websites with contact details. You send them the cash after you torrent the album right?
DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
=o= what? no cute blond girls?
You realize that as soon as Pirate Bay is shut down, global warming is going to be out of control...
The previous Swedish justice minister proved that The Piratebay could very much be touched, even without any law against it.
So I don't agree with this assumption that TPB can't be touched - it obviously can and has been, even if it probably was an illegal action of the prosecutor and the police.
There's porn of that!
I have no tag line
Apparently the RIAA has convinced a few million people that music began with the RIAA. Previous to the RIAA, there was no music and no music industry. There were no forlorn teens strumming songs to their sweethearts on the porch. There were no dusty bar dwellers lamenting that the girl was really hot, but now she's gone. Previous to the RIAA, there were no musicians who would sing for company or pocket change. Previous to the RIAA, people wouldn't go to clubs and cafes and smoky little venues in the bad side of town to hear some sultry voiced lady in a red dress tell you about her hometown in Harlem. Previous to the RIAA, musicians couldn't make money making music.
Apparently there's no music but RIAA music. At least that's the impression I get from all these folks decrying them for going after a pirate site.
Wake up folks. There's other music out there. Think about it. If I were to write some lousy poetry and then complain when someone shared it with Bob (yeah, you Bob) would you give a crap? Probably not.. So why get angry when the RIAA does it? Go buy some non-RIAA music and make them irrelevant.
Vote with your dollars.
I'd say it's pretty spot on, actually. I'm an artist. If my music gets put up on iTunes, Napster, MusicNow, etc, I eventually will recieve a portion of the revenue. AllofMP3.com doesn't give me jack shit for my music. If you truly believe in supporting artists, don't use AllofMP3.com. Use a legal service, buy the CD, and support the band when they come rolling through town.
If you want to argue semantics, go talk to a wall, but you're still just being a dick.
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
The United States of America happens to have a casual name that is also the name of the continent that the country is on.
As a proud resident of the BIGGEST country on that continent (which, for the benefit the geographically-challenged, is CANADA), I'd just like to say "bite me".
Russia wants to be part of the world economy and WTO.
America wins on this one and Russia wil bend over to take this one; whether it be a year from now it is going to happen and Allofmp3 will be shut down.
You're right. It is, of course, in the best interest of the RIAA to go and start a land war in Asia. That can only be good, right?
I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
Acording to wikipedia russias GDP was $979 billion in 2006. So yes, that IS a bit over the edge...
Firstly, let's not pretend that these are some sort of freedom fighters striking at an evil empire. They're crooks
I'd say it's a little from column A and a little from column B.
they wouldn't crack down on Pirate Bay like a swat team
They have; with an actual SWAT team - doesn't seem to have accomplished much.
sic transit gloria mundi
As I understand it, allofmp3 distributes royalties on its sales in accordance with Russian law. The RIAA has refused to accept these royalties, because that would lend legitimacy to allofmp3.
Copyright infringement is not theft. Theft is a violation of criminal law. Copyright infringement is a violation of civil law. Thieves can be arrested; copyright infringers can only be sued. The Forbes article calls it theft and stealing in imitation of the *AA propaganda, but endless repetition of this erroneous use doesn't make it correct.
I seriously doubt we will be needing much from the US in 20 years from now. The US is rapidly making itself irrelevant, not to mention the laughing stock of the world. Here in Europe, we snicker at your stupid patent laws, your incredibly corrupt political system which borders on a theocracy, your gas guzzling cars and RIAA's jihad on their own citizens. I could go on about the lack of gun control, your disrespect for the environment, your unprovoked actions in Irak and general disrespect for other forms of government and human rights. Pretty soon all the US will have left to export is natural resources (food stuffs), entertainment (which we'll just copy), lots of posturing (which we'll just ignore) and law school graduates (which we won't be needing).
Or else we wouldn't need a separate set of laws to define copyright violation.
No matter how much shills wish to define copyright violation as theft, the body of law on the topic states absolutely otherwise.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
The Russian copyright whozits even tried to pass the money they'd collected on to the artists via the RIAA, but the RIAA refuses to deal with them. More examples of how the RIAA isn't there for the benefit of the artists it purports to represent.
As for the GP paying by MasterCard - you obviously haven't tried to buy credit on allofmp3.com for a while. Last time I tried, they only accepted JCB.
They're crooks, stealing from people, and crooks don't get much sympathy.
If you tried actually talking to people you would see that most people have much more sympathy with the pirates than with the industry.
I have found exceptions: people who believe market economy and copyright laws are there for companies, not for humanity.
Last I ckecked, payment, or lack therefore was irrelivant in copyright infringement, and permission or lack therefore to share a copyrighted work was the big stickler in what is/isn't coopyright infringement. Either things have changed stupidly, or people are being bulshitted.
If you believe in privacy, and believe you have "nothing to hide" at the same time, you're a goddammed idiot
Let's be absolutely, one hundred percent, crystal clear about one thing: Unauthorized copying is not piracy.
What is piracy? Piracy is when someone takes goods, that are legally protected by property rights, and that are being transported from one place to another, without authorization from the owner of the goods, depriving the owner of those goods from their use and economic value.
What is unauthorized copying? Unauthorized copying is taking a pattern of information that is legally protected by copyright and is fixed on a physical substrate, and creating a similar or identical pattern of information on another physical substrate, without permission of the copyright holder, in a manner that does not have a statutory exemption from copyright protection. (Whew!)
As you can see, these things are quite distinct from one another. I don't believe that they are even comparable. The use of the term "Piracy" to describe "Copying a protected work without permission of the copyright owner" is misleading, pejorative and dishonest.
Whether or not you support actual physical piracy (yarrrr, matey) and whether or not you support unauthorized copying, if you want to have an honest debate you should use correct terminology.
I ((mostly)) listen to indie bands. But I also enjoy older stuff from the major labels. So I either pirate the music I want that comes through the labels (no, I don't feel bad about it, the musicians would have seen maybe all of 2% of the money I might have spent on one of their albums), or, if and only if I like a good number of the songs on a cd, I buy the cd and feel guilty of providing the recording industry more money to use in their war against the consumer. No, it's not a perfectly idealistic way to combat the labels, but it's a helluva lot better than 90% of blind sheeple that don't even realize that it might be an issue. And I'm ok with that.
The creator of this post (Jacob Smith) hereby releases it, and all of his other posts, into the public domain.
This whole thing really boils down to the American belief that they are somehow superior to the rest of the world, and most of the crap thats going on regarding copyrights is not even about money, its about power and control. The problem with this is the harder they push these countries into towing the line on copyrights the harder the people in these countries will push back. In Canada we implemented a special tax on blank media to make up for supposed "losses" due to piracy. I only hope that the current government manages to destroy the counties economy so we can be rid of yet another imperialist regime a bit earlier. Off topic I would like to say that I have completely lost respect for American citizens for not standing up to their government and just bending over and taking it, as I actually believed that they would never allow it. Guess I was way off on that one, your less free now than ever before in the history of the country, you don't even get to elect your government anymore, and you blindly allow them to disgrace your country in the name of Patriotism and Democracy when in reality you have niether.
Just a quick question. Is there a law to prevent US businesses advertising on illegal sites. If you remove the fiscal ability to run these sites would they not be forced to close.
In the name of FSM, if these guys were real pirates, we wouldn't have global warming issues.....
Praise His Noodliness. RAmen.
Can I demand $150,000 from the RIAA for each song they made me listen to in the 80's that sucked?
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
You are completely correct in that information is the new currency. But the United States is wrong in how it deals with that currency.
Manufacturing has always been plagued by scarcity. For instance, in the US and Canada and Europe, there's a scarcity of cheap labour. So stuff that can be sent overseas is sent overseas. But overseas, there's a scarcity of knowledge in areas of research, development, automation, and quality control. So anything that is heavy on those things either have a heavy knowledge and personnel export, or they are kept at home.
My background is manufacturing in Canada, and I can tell you this: typical tool and die, mould-makers and other rather simple (comparatively) stuff is going to China and India, and complicated, highly technical, highly automated products like aerospace are staying here. In fact, traditional trades are slowing right down, but aerospace is absolutely booming in Ontario.
The problem is that information has no such scarcity and flows easily away. Whether this information is media or trade knowledge. While we may have the cultural upper hand right now, and while we may have the automation and quality control upper hand right now, information like that won't take long to get to China and other low-wage regions.
So in all their wisdom, our lawmakers have collectively decided to stop that flow as best they can. Whether they can stop it is yet to be seen, but from what I can see, it's doomed to fail. Or, put another way, artificial scarcity is just that: artificial and easily overcome.
What is is all that is. Isn't that obvious?
recently, the so-called "list 301" of countries, labeled as very bad copyright infringers got its 2007 edition. ;-) a lot of hassle was stirred up, the owner was brought to court - and promptly relieved, because he was not properly charged, nor could he have been.
due to that, in the country of Bulgaria the two most famous torrent trackers - arenabg.com and zamunda.net, were forcefully brought down BY THE POLICE and also the largest telecom in the country blocked the access to one of them, despite announcing its address in the BGP sessions. the few other smaller tracker sites simply shut down ops, while the arena-s, being of a somewhat mirky origin and obviously possesing some resource - relocated their hostings in Frisco, TX
mostly advantageously random fact - in the very days when the raids happened, some frickin` unbeknownst to noone firm started spreading the good news that it is a distributor of the hollywood films under DRM shackles. it just became crystal clear to everyone, that this was all a stage-up, meant to make a poor little country benign and (ob)serving in the eyes of the western big brothers. but the amateurish guerrila and partisan methods by the state apparatus - the so called State Division for fighting Organized Crime (GDBOP), made this all such a bad mess, that even the scene started laughing at them - a group posted a greeting, saying "FBI pwns GDBOP, because the bureau at least knows what a scene is and so on."
needless to say, right after bulgaria was delisted from 301, few days later most of the trackers resumed ops like nothing has happened....
Now, Make Your WISE Move...
AllofMP3.com is legal, in Russia. That the RIAA tries to paint them as "illegal" just because it does not conform to US copyright laws is just silly. US law is only valid in the US, not in the entire world which many americans seem to think.
Shirley, is that you??
Well, no, I don't, because they don't own the music. They might appreciate it, but it's they're own damn fault for selling it to the label. I won't pay the label.
Pretending that there is no question about their right to operate internationally is just as bad.
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
They are 'online enablers' at the most. We can debate all day long if its right to 'copy', but all these people are doing are offering LINKS... nothing more, nothing less.
Thats like holding Ford liable beacuse they sell cars, that could be used in a hold up, or to run someone over.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Any administration that want to add harsher copyright laws would have to deal with public opinion. That may not be the simplest thing to do in a country with a quite lax popular view on copyright infringement, with maybe as much as 10% of the entire population regularly committing copyright infringement through filesharing. In addition, we have comparably short sentences even for serious violent crimes, and no tradition of exorbitant damages awarded through lawsuits. Good luck adding four-year prison sentences for copyright infringements when that is about what you get for rape or robbery.
Second, don't think for a second that if their country needed something from the US, Europe, etc that they wouldn't crack down on Pirate Bay like a swat team.They tried, and raided the web hosting company that hosted The Pirate bay (and other unrelated companies) almost exactly one year ago, seizing all servers (including those of unrelated parties) and even network equipment such as routers. The Pirate Bay was up in three days, while many of the legitimate businesses had their equipment in lockup for several months after the raid. The MPAA claimed that it was big victory on the day of the raid, only to have The Pirate Bay up again in less than 72 hours. And now it may be more resilient, as TPB claim to have it mirrored in several countries. In addition, the raid was very good advertising for The Pirate Bay, as anyone who hadn't heard of the site before certainly knew about it afterwards.
I don't pirate stuff myself, but I appreciate their position as a thorn in the side of the big media companies. Their legal page is also fun to read (Warning: Somewhat offensive language there), where they mock any cease and desist letters they receive.
But if even 1 person would have purchased except for the option of download for free, they have lost revenue and it could be construed as theft. Likewise, if one person bought an album they would not have otherwise known about, the labels have gained revenue by free advertising. I have never bought an album or attended a concert from a little known artist without extensively stealing mp3s or borrowing/copying a CD first.
These loss numbers are always bogus. When prices go down, sales go up. When I was young video games and MS products were rampantly pirated, obviously those markets collapsed ;)
Were those lost video game sales? No. Our allowances were limited and already spent on video games (or computer upgrades needed to run video games which was easier to justify to parents). More enforcement only meant we would spend more time out riding bikes, reading, etc. Lower prices, probably would have resulted in a greater diversity of games bought (at a high price you don't tend to risk buying things that might suck).
A modern army has a long tail and almost all of that stuff is both heavy and consumable.
You arn't kidding... Humvees at 5 miles per gallon require equally high-mobility fuel tankers.
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
Ah, but it is not AllofMP3.com depriving you of your royalties. Those royalties are sitting in an escrow account in Moscow collecting dust because the RIAA doesn't want to accept the cash. Accepting the cash would mean they would need to dispurse them to you with a very small cut for themselves. They want more of the money to go to them and not to you.
Just because your record label doesn't want to pay you the royalties AllofMP3 has collected on your behalf that doesn't mean they don't give you 'jack shit' for your music, it just means you are either too dumb to collect the check or more likely you hired a RIAA member to act as your agent and they are not collecting the money for their own reasons. It is also quite likely that you aren't talking about your music at all, but a recording whose copyright you sold to an RIAA member, in which case you have a contract dispute with them, not a dispute with AllofMP3.com
But all this aside, AllofMP3 is a good lesson in why we can't continue selling copies of music. What they are doing is selling music at prices that make sense in their economy, actually they are a bit pricey for Russia. What they are doing is practicing arbitrage. Arbitrage is the what drives the global economy and trying to stop it is a fools errand (see DVD region codes and various other failed schemes attempted in the last 500 years).
So what to do? Well we can differentiate the product line, sell cheap and expensive versions of the same thing, Tide comes in bags in third world countries and bottles in first world countries. It's the same stuff, but if our local Stop-n-shop started selling Tide in bags you would expect to pay less. This can only account for a 25-30% markup in the rich countries, and the income differential is more like 1000%, so to maximize your income you price for the rich countries and sales in the rest of the world go to a very tiny market segment. BTW This is basically how textbooks work today, they are printed only in paperback in some countries and only in hardback in other countries. But with things as easily and cheaply copied as music we won't be able to keep it out of poor childrens hands like we do textbooks (Try to convince someone living on a $2 a day that they are an evil pirate and should pay $25 for each CD, the $0.25 they do pay is a major outlay.) At my local deli all the detergent bottles have Spanish directions and the batteries are from Israel (Duracells, shipped from here to the Middle East and back).
We can try to attach a social stigma to buying things cheap, "Oh, you have the J.C. Penny Madonna? I have the Gucci Madonna!" This only goes so far.
We can sell everything close to 3rd world price, say $0.50. I don't imagine this would be popular with most copyright holders.
We can move to a donation model. I've considered this myself and from what I can gather from the stats you can expect to get about 10% buy in if you can hold their attention. Your market expands maybe 4x, and you can't increase the donation amount much above current sale price, so your take falls to about 50% of current take. Plus there is the business risk of trying this out, what if everyone just listens to your particular album a couple times and then toss it, they may not give you a donation. And there is a fairness issue, I don't mind people paying less because they have less, but I do mind the millionare moocher.
We can move to a survey based royalty system. You could keep payments to artists about the same as they are now and increasing each year as the music "buying" world gets bigger. In this system each government would pay the artist on a local scale based on the number of people listening to the artists music in that country. This would have to be paid out of taxes, perhaps CD-ROM and internet connection taxes, perhaps just the general fund. This would be the fairest system to artists and consumers alike, but would be opposed because of the 'taxes are evil' growd and because in this scheme the artist gets the royalty and pays it to the label
Actually since Norway found oil and is the world's third largest exporter, Sweden has IKEA and the Danes enjoy their Carlsberg beer we have given up raiding Britain and Ireland :)
According to the UN list of best countries to live in (2006) Norway is 1st, Sweden 5th and Denmark 15th.
They can be touched, it's just that nobody want's to.
The simple fact is that it's not stealing. Nothing was lost or denied to someone or taken from anyone physically.
What copying a program or music file or movie does is... absolutely nothing, because the person in question certainly wouldn't have paid anyways for the item in question.
It's not stealing, it's actually just a failure to properly pay for the item. This is more similar to say, not paying your dues or membership at CostCo or SamsClub. Two entirely different things.
Of course, if the industries in question spammed the airwaves and net with "failure to properly pay for services rendered" it would hardly get anyone's attention like "stealing" does.
Actually, that's not it at all. The key word in your argument is willing. You are willing to compensate someone for a product. IN the case of music or movie downloads there's two groups. Those willing to give something equal to what they consider the value, if the value is offered by someone other than the owner for free they will take that offer, but if that value is taken away they have no choice but to compensate the owner for that item. The other group is those that are unwilling to compensate if the price of the item is more than free.
The first group is contributing to theft, as in the absense of the ability to obtain it for free the owner would have gained something of value. The second group is not, they would not have contributed either way.
Oh yes, they do live in America. We also live in Europe and Asia, Africa and possibly even Antarctica. Why not even friggin Atlåntis... And yes we've got reindeer, and cute blond girls in Scandinavia, but that's not why we're pirates. Beeing a Pirate is an honor. You stand up for what is right. Ideas are good. Everyone should have one. And share them, please. Sorry. Me drunk. Saw a cute blond though...
Wait? What? You mean its illegal?
No??
Sweden - Home of the brave, land of the free!
USA - Land of the uhm... not so free?
Software patents, DMCA, PATRIOT Act, hmm what a shit hole.
If the RIAA had an army, they probably would go to war. If they increased their lobbying enough, perhaps they would have their army.
Flappinbooger isn't my real name
Mongrel News all the news that fits and froths
What kind of website clickthru black spiral do you have to dance down to find that kind of perversion?
;-D
No, seriously, and can you provide links? Closest I found was a DVD Rip (on-topic, haha!) of Lovely Leprosy Lesbian Lickdown.
I ALMOST posted this non-AC, but fuck, I freak even myself out sometimes, can't be doin that to the masses. Well, not under my ACTUAL handle.
Nice beaver!
Yes, many people don't sit down and carefully think about legal issues. Fortunately, some people do, and for much the same reason that people are willing to work with specialists in other fields (99% of the people on Earth don't know how to fly a plane, so when I need to fly somewhere, I look for an airline with a trained and experienced pilot), specialists have developed in the legal field.
For example, I'm a copyright lawyer, and having studied copyright law extensively, having practiced copyright law, and having thought about copyright law a lot, I can assure you that if that's what 99% of people think, then 99% of people are wrong. Of course, I don't think that your 99% statement was all that accurate. I think that people are more nuanced; Alice might regard it as wrong to hotwire Bob's car and drive away with it, but apparently, given how prevalent it is, she doesn't think it's wrong to copy Bob's CD of 'Carol Sings the Hits.'
By paying musicians you incentivise them to keep at it,
What if I am both not interested in incentivizing them, and also not concerned about the results of the lack of this artificial incentive?
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
Now I know where to find all that stuff which is no longer available on Youtube.
Then the answer for Time Warner (and other big American media companies) is to start republishing everything from places that refuse to honor international copyright treaties. Movies, TV shows, music, books, et cetera.
...except that this usage has been common for at least a quarter of a century, and was popularized by the pirates themselves in the first place.
And not pay a dime for it.
The use of the term "Piracy" to describe "Copying a protected work without permission of the copyright owner" is misleading, pejorative and dishonest.
Note, for example, "Pirate Bay."
But it's meaningless to point out it's not really "theft" under the law (which is a state law and can vary from state to state anyway).
Who gives a rat's ass what the states have to say? 17 USC 301. Personally, I'd be shocked to find a single law regarding larceny that was actually applicable (aside from the preemption issue) to copyright issues. There can be copyright at common law, but even that is still copyright, and not, say, trespass to chattels. None of this prevents a judge from using an inaccurate colloquialism, though.
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
What would the RIAA do if it couldn't scaremonger? I wonder how things would be if the system adapted to, say, $7 per electronically transmitted infringement, and a shared album cost an infringing user $70-110.
As the owner of a small software development company, one that is currently having its products illegally copied and shared, piracy affects my bottom line.
It's not like these guys are just fighting some good fight against the evil behemoths with billions in market capital. They're stealing from little shops like ours that sell a good simple product for a low cost. When we loose a sale... that's $20 that would have gone towards me paying a bill or eating out one night. They're strengthening the companies that can afford the lawyers and the losses by weakening small businesses.
These people are just criminals... too cozy in their mom's basement to break into my house and slap the food out of my mouth.
Tom the Sigless
"Surely two countries have gone to war for less than $1.65 trillion. On a side note, let's not forget that Russia has oil."
Oh no! don't say that.
" The war with Russia is not about the oil, it's about the artists"
"Our intelligence tells us that Russia has Weapons of Mass Distribution and are not afraid to use them"
No, yes, yes. Now do you want to spend the next half-hour having a debate that you're not going to acknowledge, or read? Slashdot has already addressed the theft, stealing, copyright argument and has been going on eight years. Your side simply ignores any contrary arguments and repeats the same damn things like it's some gospel, that if said over and over makes it true. So let's all call it "copyright infringement". Oh, wait the discussion suddenly didn't get better. It just moves to another excuse to engage in the same behaviour as before. Lather, rinse, repeat. And what is even the more gailing is that you all treat your audiance like they're a bunch of idiots who can't see through it all. RMS may be precise, but he's also immune to being BSd too.
The Russians have won. They have made the world a cesspool of distrust, greed, fear and hate.
They also have real weapons of mass destruction.
I can throw myself at the ground, and miss.
"the pirates gleefully reminded the movie company that they didn't live in America" something more people should think about.
Really good, but tough shit for you that all the law books say that your 99 percent (a statistic obviously pulled out from way deep inside your asshole) of the people on earth are wrong.
Its successor - www.mp3sugar.com
That is all.
You can snicker as much as you want, it's just about the most you can do. Euro-peons have been predicting the fall of the US since the end of WW2 (and even before) and guess what, the US is still there. It will still be there when Europe will be dead and gone, killed by its own stupid economic policies.
All your pathetic little laughs are only to hide the fact that the US can wipe its collective ass with Europe any moment.
Now go back to molesting little kids and read Holocaust denial pamphlets. We shit on you.
ah right, so you just take it for free, and pretend it's a moral decision. Nice, why dont you email the bands whose music you love and tell them its all their fault they dont earn anything. they will appreciate hearing from you.
DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
Copyright infringement is a violation of civil law.
May be true or not... depending on the country and legislation you're in. The real question is how long until the content mafia is able to buy new laws that make copyright infringement a criminal offense?. Isn't it in the pipelines already? E.g. in the US?
But no matter of criminal vs. civil law: illegal copying is still not theft, because it's not depriving the owner of its own original work. Copying is an entirely different beast that can be declared illegal under some circumstances. But it's not (repeat: not) theft; it's duplication.
cpghost at Cordula's Web.
No one forced you to try and sell something that was worth next to nothing. If I tried to sell dirt and then blame people for making me starve when they say 'dirt isn't exactly a scarce item', how much sympathy do you think my complaints would garner?
If I sell a painting, the money people pay me is based on scarcity - if anyone could do the same thing in the same manner, my work wouldn't be worth anything. If my painting was perfectly copyable, well... I'd be Thomas Kinkade. And look at the worth of his paintings.
You can put a ton of labor into making something, but that is no guarantee of it being worth anything. And if your product can be perfectly duplicated for close to no cost at all? It's worth exactly the same.
Work smarter, not harder.
You're right. It is, of course, in the best interest of the RIAA to go and start a land war in Asia. That can only be good, right?
Unless the RIAA has somehow aquired a decent army it might be in the interests of the rest of the planet for them to start a war. Just so long as whoever they attacked kept them after the war was over...
It's tricky, isn't it? After all, they're operating entirely out of Russia, with no American subsidiaries, so how is it they can be violating US law? What if, say, a Mexican radio station broadcasts to US citizens? How is that any different?
Regardless, that doesn't change the fact that they aren't simply "stealing"... they are operating within the bounds of Russian copyright law. Whether or not they should be allowed to sell to non-Russian customers is a separate question.
http://www.google.com/search?q=us+mexico+radio+tre aties
Copyright has many similar agreements. If Russia doesn't see any good reason to enforce copyright, there is indeed fuck all that they United States can do about it, but I sort of doubt that Russia is going to make that choice(at least officially, they have lots of good reasons for lax enforcement).
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
You should focus on your reading comprehension.
Our product has great value and it doesn't have competition in its niche. In fact it's quite the opposite as we make a full time living selling it. Still we have is a percentage of people that would rather steal it instead of paying us for something that they obviously think is useful to them.
Loosing a percentage of sales to piracy impacts our small business, where the overall sales in dollars are lower, much greater than your average movie studio.
Tom the Sigless
If Russia doesn't see any good reason to enforce copyright
Pardon? Russia is enforcing copyright. They have a compulsory licensing scheme set up, just like many other nations (the US included). How is that not "[enforcing] copyright"? You may not like it, but it's up to the citizens of Russia to decide how copyrights will be managed, and that's the scheme that was chosen.
Now, if they are in violation of a Russia-US treaty, that's another matter entirely. However, it's still not the case that US law is being imposed in Russia. Nor is it the case that allofmp3.com is "stealing" or "infringing copyright". They would simply be in violation of a treaty by selling to US consumers.
You should focus on your philosophical understanding of the concepts of 'value' and 'scarcity'.
Maybe if you had some level of education, you could understand why it is problematic to put value on something based on scarcity when such does not exist in the world of software.
As soon as you sold the first "copy", you started digging your grave, metaphorically speaking. I'm not saying your product is bad (or good, I could hardly know). Nor am I challenging the notion that your put long hard hours of labor into it.
However, what if I toiled away hours on end trying to sell something that had no value based on its level of scarcity? Would you say I was foolish?
"However, what if I toiled away hours on end trying to sell something that had no value based on its level of scarcity? Would you say I was foolish?"
And with that the entire market for people trying to sell their work goes down the drain. The value of software is not defined by its scarcity (as it has none). Its value is determined by a) how much it will help you and b) and cost of development, support, infrastructure, salaries, etc.
If you want his product then it has value to you. If something has value to you then you are willing to barter for it or will take it. Your morals will dictate which path you choose.
"And with that the entire market for people trying to sell dirt goes down the drain. The value of dirt is not defined by its scarcity (as it has none). Its value is determined by a) how much it will help you and b) and cost of digging, moving, infrastructure, salaries, etc.
If you want dirt then it has value to you. If something has value to you then you are willing to barter for it or will take (misspelled 'duplicate'?) it. Your morals will dictate which path you choose."
There. Fixed that for ya.
Now do you see how much sense your argument makes? My favorite bit is where you try to make an appeal to morals at the end, and the kindergarten-level error in confusing duplication with theft is a pretty amusing one too. Got anything better than that? That, maybe holds water?
I was just being sloppy. What you said is more or less what I meant, but I also meant that it will be a long time before the US does much to encourage Russia to enforce any such treaty, simply because of political circumstance.
And really, it isn't that sloppy to call violations of the treaty infringement, because the violations are instances of the combination of international legal framework and copyright not being respected, which is basically the whole idea behind the treaties and copyright in the first place.
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
"Based in Stockholm, The Pirate Bay serves as a massive worldwide hub for copyright infringement but is shielded by its home country's lax copyright laws. The site lives in a comfortable legal loophole, one of many available to Web sites that offer users copyrighted content. Some exploit vagaries in U.S. law, while others depend on their international immunity."
as long as they do not understand that the piratebay is not protected by copyright-laws (because they only aid users that want to exchange material) and does not host any copyrighted content there is no reason to take them serious.
Why is the parent modded interesting? Apparently anti-American flamebait is all the rage on /. and this troll can be modded interesting.
Or am I wrong? Perhaps everything that is wrong with the world originates in the good ol' US of A? Maybe the US is really the Great Satan? After all... Nazi-ism started in the US, and so did Communism (ironically enough). I believe the Holocaust happened here... and Militant Islam and terrorism has its roots here. American soldiers blow themselfs up daily in Iraq causing untold civilian casualties, I know, I've been there twice (not as a martyr though). It was of course the United States who enslaved the populace of Central and South America to fuel their Silver Train and Treasure Fleets. It was colonists from the US who made Apartheid in South Africa. It was US soldiers who raped, killed, tortured and enslaved the people of East Asia in the 1940's. Don't forget the Reign of Terror that occured in the United States after the revolution. The US is, of course, the only country to vie for military world domination throughout history. The American Inquisition was certainly a black eye for us.
Honestly though, the US has done it's fair share of garbage to include, but not limited to, slavery (well after Europe abolished it), taking the Native Americans' land and sticking them on reservations, Japanese internment camps, our soldiers have done their fair share of atrocities as well in Iraq and other wars... but I will say that unprovoked or not, as a Soldier, I really feel that we are trying to improve the quality of life for the average Iraqi. We have poured millions of dollars into trying to rebuild the infrastucture of Iraq.
Every country has its pro's and con's so let's just try work together to make the world a better place?