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Polyethylene Bulletproof Vests Better Than Kevlar
teflonscout writes "When I think of bulletproof vests, the first word that comes to mind is Kevlar. Wired is running a story on Dynema SB61, a bulletproof material that is made of polyethylene. It is a higher grade of the plastic found in Tupperware. The story also mentions the recall of Second Chance bulletproof vests that were made from Zylon, a material that degraded slowly when exposed to moisture. At least one police officer was injured when a bullet penetrated his Zylon vest. Polyethylene is impervious to moisture. The first vests made from this new material are 5mm thick and can stop a 9mm bullet traveling at 1777 feet per second, which is slightly better than other top of the line vests."
Dynema SB61, a bulletproof material that is made of polyethylene. It is a higher grade of the plastic found in Tupperware.
There goes my idea for a zip-tie & Tupperware bulletproof vest. It also explains why the prototypes failed in the field.
Trolling is a art,
Can't wait to see The Box O' Truth give it a try.
After what I put my tupperware through im not surprised that it can stop a bullet
Dragonskin was kicked out of the running due to failures with angled shots and not standing up to temperature variance.
So, is it a hard shell, or a flexible fabric like kevlar?
Or you could just get some Dragon Skin armor that will take the force of an exploding hand grenade and not allow penetration...
i n.php
http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/dragon-sk
Seriously, though, this is cool. Hopefully this will be useful for the military as well as police, even if they have to beef it up slightly. It sounds a heck of a lot more comfortable to wear, especially in hot/wet conditions.
If it's basically like wearing a big plastic slab, isn't that going to get super hot? I'm assuming after they get a few breathable layers around it, that 5mm balloons to something much less inconspicuous. Still, any new ways to stop bullets reactively are a good thing.
stuff |
Will this protect you from a spilled drink moving 3 feet per second while playing Quake?
~S
Do they burp when they're hit?
I'll trust it as soon as the guy who invented it straps on a set, and stands about 20 years in front of me ....
bullets capable of penetrating this new body armor are on the way in
3.... 2....
Guess I'm just cynical.
Support NYCountryLawyer RIAA vs People
It mentions how well it compares on stopping a bullet, but what about other factors like weight, or maneuverability while wearing the vest.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
Mr. McGuire: I want to say one word to you. Just one word.
Benjamin: Yes, sir.
Mr. McGuire: Are you listening?
Benjamin: Yes, I am.
Mr. McGuire: Plastics
On body armor... Israeli researchers at one company, ApNano Materials Inc. in New York, have shown off a breastplate of nanometals said to be five times as strong as steel. (source source)
One of the coolest thing I recall seeing - I forget if it was on the Military Channel or Discovery - was body armor made from a material (sorry forgot what it is/was might have been spider silk) that would act as a body of water and ripple off the impact of a bullet to reduce the point of entry thereby leaving the target (person wearing the armor) safe. I personally think we are maybe 10 years away from finding an impenetrable body armor solution. My wonders are, how much will it cost when it does come out. Sadly instead of attempting to assist military and LEO's, the makers will let greed get in the way.
Infiltrated dot Net
"doubt this technology will see iraq, oh and don't flame the truth, thanks"
Yes, don't flame the truth. Rather, flame the complete ignorance of the process by which new technologies trickle down to soldiers from the numerous trials and tests.
If it's good enough, it will eventually be used. The question then will be whether troops will still be in Iraq at that time.
More Twoson than Cupertino
They make vests to protect against Zylons? How come no one told me this before!?! It would have made things a lot easier!
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Toss 10-week old spaghetti sauce at the wearer. That protective shit will be in trash before the 9mm bullet even gets to him.
Best Windows Freeware
I think maybe they should rethink the name of the material ("Dynema SB61")when/if it goes into production.
I, for one, would rather not have my bulletproof vest sound like it's a cross of high explosives and bowel cleansing kits.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
How can that be?
I hear they could use some extra body armor over there. And they'll never, ever, ever be exposed to moisture in the freaking desert.
Yeah...lets just hope they aren't bombarded with microwaves nearby before the wearer gets shot...
"Just Smile and Nod." --Huck
> The question then will be whether troops will still be in Iraq at that time.
And the correct answer to this query is:
wait for it...
Yes.
Is it cheaper? And more important for my use, is it better than kevlar for my bike tires?
so much for "preview"
Tin foil hat... check! Tupperware shirt... check! Zip-lock underwear... check!
Why not make it just the same weight so it can withstand massive amounts of punishment? Was the old Kevlar just too heavy to use properly?
A much better material is "Dragonskin"-- it is flexible and breathes somewhat.
The correct term is bullet-resistant.
Like the stuff that's good enough that we already have, that to my knowledge, still isn't being used in Iraq?
Maybe it's a few months out of date, but last I heard, the only troops who have bullet resistant body armor over there are the ones who's families bought/shipped it, or got it from an NPO that is buying them and shipping them to the troops.
34486853790
Connection too slow for X forwarding? Try "ssh -CX user@host"
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/dragon-skin-bul letproof-vest-repels-ak47-rounds-203003.php
Dragon Skin bullet proof vests are light weight but can stop (multiple) armor piercing rounds. That's rather impressive.
They use silver-dollar sized "scales" of ceramics. If it's as light and flexible as advertised, this is far better for soldiers and law enforcement.
It's Dyneema, a brand name of the chemicals company DSM for ultra high molecular weight polyethylene fibers.
Back in my time they gave us Vietnam-era flack jackets with lead bars. Being on the water in the USCG these jackets had their downside. =)
If it's the same dynema used for rock and ice-climbing gear, I'd be worried about it melting. The stuff traditionally has a negative reaction to UV (as most synthetics do) and it melts pretty easily. I'm sure they've figured that out though.
"Growing old is inevitable; growing up is optional."
Rather, flame the complete ignorance of the process by which new technologies trickle down to soldiers from the numerous trials and tests...If it's good enough, it will eventually be used.
Not quite. There's a lot of good products that should be used, but they aren't because of the almighty dollar. Usually it takes a few dead bodies, the tears of weeping mothers, pointed fingers, and fistfuls of public rage to force the government to supply adequate equipment to its troops. And even then they only supply it because of public image.
For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother.
And I never realised that John Lydon was that powerful.
Z.
If I remember correctly, the typical bullet proof vest is not very effective at stopping full metal jacket rifle rounds. I would think that it would help to a degree with IED shrapnel though. Check TheBocOTruth for (correct) details, as my memory may be faulty.
Why don't they just make the bullets softer?
How can that be?
But I can think of some potential customers if reports of this movie ever reaches the Bible Belt in the US. (For those not wanting to read the article, it's a movie about a guy trying to have sex with God. Try to imagine all the possible ways this could get people offended.)
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
I've never heard that story, but I have seen a video clip of Davis doing that. Basically put on a set of the armor, took a little snubby .38, held it out at arm's length, and shot himself in the sternum.
Looked pretty unpleasant -- he immediately fell down, and it took a few seconds before it was clear that he had not, in fact, been shot -- but damned impressive.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
Back in the days of yore (199something), I remember some technology show (C|Net or something), showing off some bulletproof plastic that was gone over with a blowtorch, hit with AK-47s, Axes, Bazookas, etc, for a few minutes (one piece through it all), and eventually 20 minutes (or an hour, or "some non-immediate length of time") later, they eventually got a 15" hole in it through sustained torching while hitting it with an axe.
/reason/ we don't have plastic tanks protecting our troops, but I don't know what that reason is. I have only ever heard it mentioned that one time. I think the concept involved many small force-absorbing layers or something.
And then I never heard another thing about it. I assume there's some
or something.
-- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
Perhaps it can be combined with the liquid body armor for extra protection.
Are there any other benefits? Not to underscore the vest's foremost job (stopping bullets) but if there is only a "slight" improvement over existing vests I don't find this all that newsworthy.
Without answers to these questions, these vests will be nothing more than a "slightly better for a lot more money" niche solution.
from Zylon
Made from Xylon, man that's brutal!
Found this and it looks like a court found enough evidence to say the vest failed due to heat, moisture, and light. Also, the vest was made of Zylon and the company stopped using it 4 months after the cop was killed.
m
http://www.whistleblowers.org/Cop_s_widow_wins.ht
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
without prejudice,
M. Gregory Thomas(tm), Network Redundancy Administrator;
Mundt Administration of Network Redundancy:
My experimentation with body-armor is qualified, having secured split/spent Kevlar vests from a good captain that were salvaged from a dumpster of a police-fraternal Order. Kevlar can't deflect the second bullet if it hits in the same place, and any matter of Kevlar to continue into the flesh of a man would be fatal within a week due to infection.
Pick any material that has no compression and find a way to use it as body armor. It was long thought that water has no compression, but recently they found that water becomes combustible when it is electrically charged-negative and put under a vacuum with flame. Clay, or even glass, has almost no compression; the greater difficulty is to support it in such a way that it doesn't crack.
I disclosed an idea with a friend that I wanted to make tempered-glass ball bearings. This was said exaclty one Month ago, because tempered glass would shatter on the smallest pressure on an edge of two meeting faces; so, my question was whether to remove the edge by making it round? Tempered glass is resistant to heat, by keeping it in the glass "oven" longer after it is rolled out; also, the heat-treatment process makes the glass less-brittle, and well resistant to crack on impact: I would entertain an experiment to super-treat the glass into marble-sized ball bearings, even try to fasten it into armor plating. Of'court in the matter to resist a bullet, the worse a bullet could do is absorb all its energy into the impact and cause more damage, while a bullet that moves through a the flesh of a man would do less damage than if it was absorbed into the armor or stopped in the middle of the verry flesh to sit.
Infection kills more men (male or female) than the bullets themselves. If pain was ever measured as a sign of fear, then tempered glass shattered and sitting inside a man would be just as much an interruption by pain if not a good substance that wouldn't cause infection. In all body-armor, the very material that is sewn or assembled around the armor and the armor itself, causes as much death by infection after the surgery as would the bullet to damage the organs and parts in a man.
without prejudice
Independent tests do not support the army's conclusions. Since there is already some question about the validity of the army's tests (e.g. the designer of the vest that "won" in the army's test says that dragon skin is actually better, the person who conducted the army tests left to work for a dragon skin competitor, etc.) I don't think just repeating the army's conclusions (or quoting the Washington Compost as doing so) really proves anything.
--MarkusQ
As with anything, the devil's in the details. From a previous trip around the web in re: bodyarmor.
It's not Tupperware, but 'Ultra high molecular weight polyethylene'.
See also:
Spectra
Dyneema
Aramids (from "aromatic polyamide")
- Example: Twaron
Kevlar, of course.
Also Nomex - known for it's heat-resistant attributes, also strong. It's an "aromatic nylon, the meta variant of the para-aramid Kevlar."
I'll get some polyethyl the next time I demonstrate the peace in Baghdad.
Yours Alzheimersly,
Senator John McCain,
former POW, former teenager, former child, and currently a Military Expert
Will these have a replace every 5 years life span reguardless its ever been out of the box? Current bullet proof vests have the manufactured date on there and it's generally policy to replace them 5 years from manufactured date. This is just a cost of doing business with bullet proof vests that the police field recongizes and they budget for it. Do these new ones need to be replaced on that time table though?
Wearing pure plastic is likely to be worse.
How do they handle the body overheating problem? Yes, you can buy ribbed, ventilating T-shirts for wearing under vests, but heat buildup is WHY vests get sweated on and then lose protection ability from moisture.
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
Of course, it is great marketing to show that your body armor can stop all rounds up to a 30mm A-10 round, but what LEOs really need is something a bit less.
If I could invent two types of armor, one that worked against a 30mm round, but looked like the bomb disposal suit, and a piece of armor that only worked against 22 caliber rimfire, but looked and felt identical to a cotton T-shirt; the Tshirt-like armor would be the real success.
Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
without prejudice,
a rticles_id=528
/
M. Gregory Thomas(tm), Network Redundancy Administrator;
Mundt Administration of Network Redundancy:
Does anyone know what is wrong with Slashdot search? The story was last year, in about August. The story was about Scientists found an enzyme to spray on their lab-coats that would dissolve/eat the microscopic material emit and deposited by the sweat glands. Looking to Google, all I found was the junk those US'ian licensed "hunters" use to block or disguise their sweat from "game" animals.
I thought this was a good study, because many members of those street-patroling police-fraternal Orders stop wearing their body-armor because it inhibits flexibility, eventually chaffes their skin, or collects a bad odor consistent with non-washed clothing. On another train of thought, WD-40 was said to be a repellant to odor as well as the verry waters that supplement the nutrition of the microbes that create odorous matter.
At least these advertisements are consistent, and not on the front-page of Slashdot as though it were news, in result of a Google search for the same Slashdot articles that not-even Slashdot search could return:
"Wash in SPORT-WASH and use N-O-DOR spray to oxidize body odors";
http://www.huntingnet.com/articles/articles.aspx?
FOUR OLD SCENT STRATEGIES, AND ONE NEW ONE: "stay downwind, clothes washed in baking soda makes you smell like anything you come in contact with, wear carbon-based clothing, and use that magic spray";
http://www.whitetailu.com/4-15-nullo.html
You gotta love this one: "Canadian Man Beats Entire U.S. Military Industrial Complex": body armor;
http://funnynewsstories.wordpress.com/tag/clothes
Scent-Lok video and article;
http://www.scentlok.com/science.asp
without prejudice
That's some 9mm bullet they were testing with. I haven't found one that will travel 1777 ft/sec ever. It must be +P++++
If this stuff works, will it be much cheaper? Cause I was pondering about getting some protection for my family after hearing the last batch of gun fire in the neighbourhood.
M. Gregory Thomas(tm), Network Redundancy Administrator;
Mundt Administration of Network Redundancy:
Look at the third URL in the list at the bottom, the one titled "Canadian Man Beats Entire U.S. Military Industrial Complex", and look one article below it on the same page.
Specifically, the article is titled "Dirty underwear no longer to be an issue?", but was quoted from its LIVESCIENCE.COM host nanofabric/Self-Cleaning Underwear Goes For Weeks Without Washing That's what we were looking to find. URL for the article that I found it upon is http://funnynewsstories.wordpress.com/2007/01/09/
Not intending to be a one-man discussion, but WD-40 has one of the traits to keep water-based solutions from a material, but that may be only half the battle. On related discussion, to store some types of edible roots for longer duration would need the matter to be submerged in a non-toxic wax; then again, not a viable solution for balmy environments that it would be implemented onto.
without prejudice
you'd need a mighty big/fast bullet to get through my PLANET!
My Ph.D. project happens to be on super-fibre materials, nice coincidence.
As it happens, dyneema is highly stretched polyethylene. As such, it melts at a fairly low temperature (and performs less well before reaching such temeratures. Temperatures around 80 degrees centigrade would do...). Twaron and Kevlar are aramids. They decompose at around 400 degrees, and hardly any change in performance is seen.
Now, 80 degrees C is a quite high temperature, but with a (desert) sun baking on a vest, I would rather wear the slightly heavier aramid vest.
B.
Every experiment which ends in a big bang is a good experiment.
They were then moulding the plastics into various objects using an injection moulding machine, and the machine supplier had given them a number of free moulds including a mixing bowl, a toy airplane, things like that. They had also been experimenting trying to make very high molecular weight polythene.
Anyway, when we left they gave us some samples, explaining that the process was very unreliable and some things came out well while others were a total failure. So we tested a couple of those bowls to destruction. I was amazed at how strong they were - in the end it took a pickaxe to go through one. I can well believe that a suitably filled polyethylene in a reliable process could stop bullets.
As a side issue, as well as Tupperware, long chain polyethylene is generally regarded as the best, and safest thing, for Diesel fuel tanks.
Pining for the fjords
Hey, it might even help out on moon exploration or even to mars. http://www.clavius.org/envrad.html
Stops bullets and keeps the kiddies from mutating.
I had occasion to work with Dr. Dusan Prevorsek, the original inventor of ultra-high strength polyethylene fibers on a different project. The original patents on this material date to the early 1980's.
Since it's commercialization it has been in wide use throughout the world, and has had performance advantages over aramid fibers like Kevlar. In addition to great performance it is also significatly less expensive, and the manufacturing process has much lower environmental impact.
I am a rock climber, and the one thing I do know is Dyneema. The slings and webbing that I use to secure myself to the rock, and that also takes a good brunt of my falls and usually a good percentage of Dyneema, good to see that it has other good uses
9mm bullets typically don't travel all that fast. High-power 9mm loads are up around 1300fps. The armor in the article is significant not for it's stopping power (threat level II and IIIA are for pistols) It is significant because it's VERY light and very thin. Many soldiers in Iraq are not wearing body armor not because they don't have it, but because it's hot, heavy, and reduces flexibility and athletic performance. (it is better to not get hit than it is get hurt less) The interceptor armor they are wearing is Class III and IV (with armor plates inserted) Your typical Ak-47 round is at about 2300fps, and it weighs a lot more, so the armor is a LOT bigger than 5mm thick. My point is that you shouldn't go buying this for your pal in Iraq until it's up to standard, and TESTED by the army so you don't end up buying expensive and ineffective stuff like "dragonskin"
People who think they know everything really piss off those of us that actually do.
This can't be regular old polyethylene. Just about every plastic is some form of polyethylene (e.g. HDPE). Is there something special about the structure of the chains?
http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldie rtech_PArmor,00.html
I saw this stuff on FutureWeapons (Discovery Channel). It is a vest that can take the full force of a Hand Grenade without actually damaging the armor, while protecting the occupant. Very cool stuff. It can take repeated bullets / shells without degradation of any sort.
Very Cool. Oh did I say that already??
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
So I just read about the dragonskin, and I don't see what supposedly makes it ineffective. Some of the hits counted against it were in non-protected areas, where the vest wasn't designed to protect. And it took AP rounds to crack the plates; standard-issue vests don't stop AP rounds anyway. You need some kind of exotic multilayered armor like Chobham for that.
So do you have a citation of a report that actually shows that dragonskin does not protect as well as does the stuff the military is using already?
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
80 C is about twice the temperature you are likely to encounter in the desert.
The highest temperature ever recorded on earth is 56.7 C (in Death Valley).
100 C is the boiling temperature of water.
___
If you think big enough, you'll never have to do it.
I'm from the small town in Michigan in which second chance was founded, and I know the entire history of the "incident"
The officer in that shooting was shot 6 or 7 times. *ONE* bullet penetrated the Zylon, and it was on the periphery of the vest. The edges of *ANY* vest are vulnerable and not as strong as center-mass.
Second chance has 960+ confirmed saves with their body armor.
What they've done to the second chance business as a result is, on the whole, a travesty. They were/are one of the few american manufacturers, and they did nothing wrong at all.
I've been using polyethylene armor on my fighting robots for years. It's extremely tough, lightweight, and relatively cheap. There was a fashion for using polycarbonate (Lexan) on fighting robots for a while, and while it looks cool (it's clear), it just can't take impact like UHMW polyethylene.
Your design to a real part online: Big Blue Saw
Can they make it out of recycled laundry detergent bottles?
They say the mind is the first thing to
that most body and vehicle armor was moving over to ceramics. How do they compare to this technology?
Those all seem like odd velocities - I'm not used to seeing anything over around 1200fps out of a 9mm handgun, but carbines/rifles should be quite a bit higher. Anyone see any description or rational for the caliber/velocity combinations they used for their testing?
KeS
square root(999,106) = 999.5529
I'm in between insightful sigs right now...
Maybe its good for street cops facing handgun fire, but its not really helpful until it can stop rifle rounds, ideally .308 energy levels although AK or .223 levels might have some virtues.
Since I work for a large company that sells body armor, I have to know about this sort of thing to help our customers. In essence, no body armor is "bulletproof". That is why if you look at any reputable manufacturer or distributor's catalog, they will list it as "ballistic armor". While it is designed, tested, and certified to defeat a large selection of threats, there can be no guarantee that it will always stop everything. As others have noted, the type of body armor that uses these materials is designed to be concealable beneath an officer's uniform. As a result, the highest threat that it can be expected to protect against are from handguns. Rifle rounds will go right through them. Also, as a side note, ballistic armor will NOT protect against a knife, you would have to specifically purchase stab armor, which is designed differently. Combination ballistic & stab armor is very expensive, although it exists. As far as Zylon is concerned, there is no vest currently being manufactured or sold with Zylon as a component. Recently I found a couple of old vests that had been stashed away and forgotten about. Since we could not sell them (one was at about 4.5 years old, and the other was Zylon), I talked my way into getting them for free. A few days later some friends (including a police officer) and myself went out to a farm and had a fun day shooting skeet. We also shot the vests. The first was your typical Kevlar construction, and it stopped everything from .22 caliber to a .45 magnum. It would not have passed certification because of the back-face on the higher calibers (look up the NIJ's testing standards), but it still worked. The Zylon vest didn't even stop a 9mm. Interesting, no?
Patience is a virtue, but haste is my life.
Vests using this material are soft vests, used for stopping handgun rounds, and it might be good for civilian police. Depending on the thickness, these vests are rated either level II or level IIIA (source). Level II vests are capable of protecting against 9mm rounds traveling up to 1225 ft/s and .357 magnum rounds traveling up to 1445 ft/s.
Level IIIA vests are capable of protecting against 9mm rounds, .44 rounds, and .44 magnum rounds traveling up to 1440 ft/s. (source)
Neither of these are good enough to replace the hard armor plates currently used by the military. Our plates are Level IV, capable of protecting against 6 rounds of 7.62mm x 51 NATO ball rounds traveling at 2800 ft/s, and 1 "armor piercing" 30.06 round traveling at 2900 ft/s.
I was looking for some human-wear testing along the lines of flexibility when worn and its insulating properties. It might be lighter in weight but if it leads to greater insulation or is more of a vapor barrier, it will fail the open market test. Cops wearing vests generally don't bitch about the weight as much as the intolerable heat, moisture, and smell of summertime wear.
IANACop, but I know enough of them to state this without fear of reprisal or shenanigans.
-BA
While there is an ongoing debate about the quality of the current system, US troops do have bullet resistant body armor.o r
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interceptor_Body_Arm
From TFA: Zeppetella was killed June 13, 2003, by felon Adrian Camacho. He shot the officer 13 times
Of course, it's not the criminal's fault for shooting him, it's the vest company's fault that one bullet out of 13 made it through.
There is no such thing as a "bulletproof" vest. There are projectile resistant vests, but the only question is when they will fail, not if. Nobody has a reasonable expectation of invincibility.
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
Polyaramid fibers like kevlar may lose strength when they get wet, but polyethylene generally doesn't tolerate heat very well.
So it seems you can go into any good marine hardware store and buy some of their "way expensive" rope and it would make good body armor. Seriously. The materials and the quality grades needed for high end sailing line and vest turns out to be the same. Not surprizing people are willing to pay for whatever it takes to either stop a bullet ot win a race.
Dyneema and Spectra (more or less the same) replaced Kevlar years ago in the high performance rope industry for sailing. It's more flexible and stronger. Also it doesn't fatigue and then fail suddenly with zero warning. Vectran, a similar but newer and more expensive material, is replacing them both.
They're also increasingly being used in the sails themselves in the place of kevlar.
the more they over-think the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the pipe
Gun buyers have to be thinking of defeating body armor when purchasing these weapons
.44 magnum wheelgun"... That sounds like that would break your wrist on the first shot, let alone allow for a followup shot.
Yeah, right.... And all those purchasers of 300hp cars are thinking of outrunning the cops?
If I was going up against multiple assailants with body armor, none of your listed weapons would be on my list, for one reason - good luck getting a followup shot in from those hand cannons. And I don't even want to think about firing a "scandium-alloy
And the "tungsten buckshot" popularity is due to lead free hunting laws, not any sort of desire to defeat armor. If you want to go through any armor known to man with a shotgun, just use a good old slug round.
Take your anti-gun trolling claims of "cop killer" elsewhere...
I would like to know where you are getting that misinformation. No one that I know who has gone to (or is currently in) Afghanistan/Iraq has had to acquire their own body armor.
I have heard grumblings about the excessive amounts of weight with the current body armor limiting mobility, but no one I know has said anything to me about wanting anything more.
why is this on slashdot?
because you can buy kevlar vests in counterstrike?
The MAFIAA is a bunch of mindless jerks who will be the first up against the wall when the revolution comes
"Don't go to war without your Tupperware"
"Lets have a Tupperware party" (whole new meaning)
"My gun goes here, but where can I keep an onion fresh?"
Seriously though. Won't this be a revolution because the cost of making the vests will be cheap. Kevlar always added great cost to the products. Maybe it will be cheap enough to make Tupperware body panels for vehicles too.
Party at O'zorgnax's Pub! Buy me a Slurmtini aye?
The criminal doesn't have money to get... that's why they sued the manufacturer.
Many vests on the current market already incorporate dyneema. It has many qualities that make it more attractive than kevlar but many serious downfalls. Polyethylene (the material dyneema is made of) doesn't do well when exposed to high temperatures. Bullets more or less melt their way through. Water retention also makes for a bit more of a problem. Polethylene loses strength when wet, and tight woven polyethylene has a way of trapping water between weaves, permanently weakening the material. Also makes wet weight a little more painful than kevlar. It can however be overcome with a layering of kevlar and dyneema. The only reason these vests are impervious are because of a sheet layer (not woven) of polyethylene.
The article is misleading in that top vests only incorporate dyneema and aren't solely comprised of it. 5mm of dyneema is INCORPORATED, it is not the only material in the vest. The dyneema is likely sandwiched between another 10mm or so of kevlar.
Of all the Universal Constants, here's one I know: Nice guys finish last
Mentioned in the body of the story is that the vest withstood a 9mm Luger round fired at 1777 feet per second. I'm not quite understanding the ballistics tables provided in the link, but the numbers seem wildly high to me. Their numbers for the .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum are both much higher than any standard loading as well. A standard 9mm load would be a 115 or 124 grain projectile moving in the vicinity of 1000-1200 feet per second. Sample loads available online indicate 383 foot-pounds of energy for a 124gr projectile moving at 1180 fps.
To replicate that energy level, but traveling at 1777 fps, would require a projectile weight of 54.6 grains (ignoring ballistic coefficient, I believe). Or in other words, to get those velocity figures, they would have to drop the projectile weight roughly in half. I suppose it's possible they were using a projectile only slightly lighter than normal, but with insanely high chamber pressures (in some sort of test platform), but even then I don't know enough to say if it's even theoretically possible to create those sorts of velocities from a 9mm Luger case using a projectile as light as 100gr.
Unless they were using MagSafe ammunition, which sells a 9mm load which reaches 1800 fps with a 60 gr projectile. The catch is, MagSafe makes prefragmented ammunition, which is most definitely not designed to penetrate vests. In fact, it's specifically created to NOT over-penetrate and shoot through walls, furniture, etc, and instead to stop fairly quickly when encountering something other than a person. The Defender load (1800 fps/60gr) is stated as being capable of limited penetration, but it's still most definitely not going to penetrate nearly as much as a standard defensive hollowpoint. If they're using MagSafe as their standard for testing, it seems to me that their claims should definitely be considered suspect in regards to their ability to defeat handgun cartridges.
My friend is an army reservist and when he got called up his (if it matters to anyone) strongly anti-war neighborhood all pitched in to buy him body armor.
He uses it for target practice because the Army provided far better equipment for his stay in Iraq.
The story also mentions the recall of Second Chance bulletproof vests that were made from Zylon, a material that degraded slowly when exposed to moisture
Still better than a material which degrades quickly, when exposed to bullets..
Which is how my tired morning eyes read that headline.
WTF, the guy who shot him is in prison so how can you say they put no fault with the shooter? What a moronic statement.
The fact that only one bullet made it through the vest is pretty amazing but from the looks of it, the widow sued because the vest company knew of the deterioration factors but didn't tell the cops about it. And it seems there were enough bleeding hearts on the jury to find the company guilty of neglect. The fact that they pulled the vests off the market shortly after the death is quite 'telling' too. IMO, had they came clean with the pros AND cons of the product initially, they would have probably walked away from this. It's questionable if the cop would have lived since they very well might have still pushed the usage beyond the 100% protection point. IMO.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
Let's not ignore the inconvenient truth that ballistic ("bulletproof") vests such as this are completely ineffective at stopping jacketed projectiles fired from even relatively low-powered rifles. Such as the 7.62x39 cartridge fired from the typical AK-47, in common use in that part of the world. Or the 7.62x54 which is used in LMGs also in common use in Iraq. Hint: both of these cartridges fire bullets which are both significantly heavier and higher velocity than the vest is rated for - in other words, when fired, they possess substantially more kinetic energy.
But if our guys ran into some homies armed with 9mm Glocks, they'd be in business with this type of vest.
But hey, you're on a roll, don't let facts dissuade you from a good rant.
P.S. Yes, these vests might provide some protection against shrapnel from IEDs, but will do jack shit against the concussion and blunt trauma which will kill you just as dead.
People could stop shooting each other.
Well, my lat-medieval plate armour does this too (yep, tested it). Its a bit heavy and inflexible compared to the modern variants, tough.
"The more prohibitions there are, The poorer the people will be" -- Lao Tse
You know what would be better than polyethylene - Mithril. I will definitely buy one if it is made of mithril, even if it is double the cost ;-).
~Sivaraj
"...Zylon, a material that degraded slowly when exposed to moisture." Does Adama know about this?
I am using a cotton t-shirt right now (as I do everyday to work). It's 1/4 of a milimeter thick. 5mm = 20 t-shirts.
It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
"The almighty dollar," which when read properly, means the contractor who's bid was the lowest or who's in bed with the politician who can give the army the most amount of trouble.
Now we just need to sit back and wait while the criminal underground undergoes tests on thier new porcelain cop killer bullets.
This is Slashdot! Give me the latest gadget, bug, or OS project! This ain't english class so don't confuse the two!
WTF, the guy who shot him is in prison so how can you say they put no fault with the shooter?
Because that was a criminal case. The victim's family didn't file a civil suit against the perp, they filed one against the vest company, which is ridiculous. To be liable for damages, the company had to both know (or should have known) about a defect, AND that defect must have resulted in the damages. The jury admitted that the evidence for either of those things was tenuous, and they admitted that the shot could have penetrated a vest which functioned as designed -- but since they weren't sure, they found in favor of the plaintiff anyway. I have a feeling this will be overturned on appeal.
At any rate, what's we're talking about is deterioration. There's nothing in my car's manual that says the brake lines will rust out, or that the seatbelts may fray over time, but I'm pretty sure both of those things will happen, and that I cannot sue the manufacturer when they do. That entropy exists shouldn't need to be written in black and white to shield companies from liability. Now if either of those things happened within the warranty, then I might have a case. It's unclear whether or not the vest company warranted the vest for any particular purpose, or amount of time, but they would be idiots if they did. This is like suing a coat company because your loved one died of hypothermia. The only thing this trial confirmed is that California juries are morons.
They pulled the product from the market because it was getting bad press. (And they reformed another company and started selling it again under a different name). If this was a clear case of a defective product -- if it was too thin, or the fiber weave was too loose, etc. -- then I could see holding the company accountable for damages. Suing when a determined attacker manages to compromise a device is just bullshit.
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.