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A Field Trip To the Creation Museum
Lillith writes "The anti-evolution Creation Museum opened last weekend and Ars took a field trip there and took lots of pictures. 'There were posters explaining just how coal could be formed in a few weeks as opposed to over millions of years, and how rapidly the biblical flood would cover the earth, drowning all but a handful of living creatures. The flood plays a big part in the museum's attempt to explain away what we see as millions of years of natural processes. There was also an explanation as to why, with only one progenitor family, it wasn't considered incest for Adam and Eve's children to marry each other.' (Myself, I liked the picture of the velociraptor grazing peacefully next to Eve, who is wearing some kind of dirndl, in the Garden of Eden.)" The reporter posted more photos from the museum on Flickr.
Queue anti-religious /. comments...... NOW.
"Please, shut up. Just when I think you can't say anything more stupid, you speak again." -Archie Bunker.
Eve was naked until she ate from the tree of knowledge, at which point she made herself a skirt with leaves.
They fail at bible accuracy, in a frikkin bible museum!
You can't take the sky from me...
Ok, I'm confused. What does the great flood have to do with creationism? Is it "evidence" of creation?
This just seems to validate that it's more of a biblical museum than a creation museum.
Developers: We can use your help.
Belief in something with no scientific proof is the foundation of just about every failed adventure in human-kind.
It turns man against man, because of different ancient social mores and savagely ignorant beliefs about the workings of the universe.
Glad I could accomodate you, as religion has been a particular pox on my existance.
Blar.
Better be prepared!
Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
This museum was built by godless atheists who want to profit from true believers!
Badass Resumes
I couldn't tell from their pics; did their Adam model have a belly button?
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
Doesn't sound like it was very intelligently designed
buh-da-chingWell, back to rejecting software patent applications.
a local radio host had on an atheist the other day who refused to recite the pledge in its current incarnation because of the "one nation under God" part.
Someone came on and identified themselves as a Catholic and bemoaned how society has become "me first" and this was because of people not worshipping God.
That got me thinking, if the caller was upset about the "me first" generation then he should certainly have a problem with the biggest "me first"er of them all: God.
After all, God says that there will be only one God, him (her/it/whatever), that you must follow his rules and you must give thanks to him. If that isn't self-centered, I don't know what is.
As we can see from the exhibits (it's not a museum folks), apparently anything can be twisted enough to justify a religious rather than scientific or logical reason for something.
The really depressing part is now we'll have another generation of kids having their minds polluted by nonsense of dinosaurs living with man and the Earth being only a few thousand years old. I guess being oblivious to reality is the easiest way of getting through life.
We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
jesus christ! what an abomination.
It would be illarious if it weren't terrifying.
It's 2007 now. Not 1700.
~~~ Paf. Le chien.
Even though I know God exists, I don't try and fill in history that the Bible doesn't explain. I'm not sure why other people have this desire to do so.
God spoke to me.
I read in an illustrated book how this big guy with an S on his shirt turned coal into a diamond by holding the coal and merely pressing his hands together. That took seconds. So maybe coal could be made in weeks. I think too in a similar book, there was this guy who lived with dinosaurs on a hidden island. So maybe man did, or does live with dinosaurs. I mean, I saw these things in print. they must be true.
Only in USA you could see such a building, a museum worshiping stupidity.
Why don't creationists take the $20+ million they spent on the museum, and use it to apply "Flood Geology" to finding valuable mineral deposits and such? They could open a bunch of museums with the profits, and provide solid evidence for their "theory" that would make those 'deluded geologists' take notice.
Funny how they never seem to want to actually try to apply what they say they believe...
PHEM - party like it's 1997-2003!
How cool would it be if the Flat Earth Society opened a similar, though less expensive, attraction right next door. Even if somebody just put up a sign for it, it would be so poignant.
On the other side of their building, we could have a "global warming" museum..... Oh, crap. This is slashdot. I am about to get modded down into oblivion.
"If you want to improve, be content to be thought foolish and stupid." - Epictetus
I've been thinking a lot about this ever since I first heard about the Creation Museum, and I find myself powerfully troubled and conflicted -- not over its content, which I know exactly where I stand on -- but over my intense desire to decry this "museum" as an utter abomination. I have always tried to endorse tolerance and understanding, and I've always let people believe whatever they want.
But I have a big, big problem when it comes to the public actions of those believers. How many thousands of children and impressionable adults will never even have the chance to learn basic tenets of logic, reason and science after being indoctrinated by a "museum" like this and the cooing, gentle voice of its proponents, telling children stories about dinosaurs living next to adam and eve and jesus?
I don't know what to do. I fully believe in Voltaire's classic quotation on freedom of speech and belief. But in this instance, I find myself thoroughly unwilling to defend the "Creation Museum's" right to make up whatever crazy "facts" they want. It's the first time I find myself wanting to "think of the children" who may very well grow up into the willfully ignorant bible beaters that are founding this "museum."
And yet there I am, suddenly the intolerant monster I have never been able to stand. Yet I tremble to imagine a future dark ages in America, where real science -- the search for the evidence of the reality of the universe -- is stoned in the streets and systematically rubbed out.
Please: before you mod me into oblivion, I want to hear everyone's thoughts on this subject.
Limina.Log
It is sad but true. A very "renaissance" of obscurantism. The US looks more and more like Iran or the Taliban. No science, no reason, only stupidity. This is the beginning of the end of the US empire. No doubt about it.
Speaking as a Frenchman, that such a museum has been conceived and built is mind-boggling, in a bad way. It reflects poorly on the american educational system. It shows how far fundamentalists can go to counter Reason in a way that hasn't been seen in France for centuries.
~~~ Paf. Le chien.
I love that third picture on the first page of Ars Technica's site in the article that states "Present changes are too small and too slow to explain these differences, suggesting God provided organisms with special tools to change rapidly."
:P
YES! Because nothing that we're directly looking at in the past few hundred years or so isn't showing massive steps in evolution, that's surely UNDENIABLE evidence that that it couldn't have EVER possibly happened in the past, and is therefore completely false! A VICTORY IS GOD!!!11!
Ahh, hilarity at it's best.
Planet Zebeth - Metroid with a twist
Thank you for proving you yourself are much more dangerous kind of person than any right wing religious nut job.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
Would that it were that simple. It's not. Humans don't naturally think in a scientific way. Doing it is hard. Even scientists who train for years have a hard time at at, and usually can only do it within the specific field they've trained in.
Of course, we can dream. And once it was thought that universal literacy was an impossible pipe dream... I can hope for universal scientific literacy.
PHEM - party like it's 1997-2003!
From the picture I've seen, there's no way to know if it was before or after she ate from the tree...so you can't really make that point. Also, She didn't make herself a skirt. 21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.
...by saying that somehow the benefits of democracy outweigh censoring even really dangerous, stupid shit like this museum.
At least we all get a good laugh out of this one.
And a good cry.
problem is, creationists have no right to equal treatment, because that would imply that their "theory" is equally plausible with evolution, which it clearly isn't. Why the US media keeps fooling people into thinking there is some kind of scientific debate about it is beyond me (apart from obvious lobbying reasons). There IS NO DEBATE. Evolution is only named a theory because there are specifics that are still not well known, not because the global process involved cannot be backed up by evidence. Creationism is just wishfull thinking.
~~~ Paf. Le chien.
Ok, so maybe not a caveman but do they realy think that God would bother to explain to people who doesn't even know that there is atoms how he created the universe? It's what Pratchett calls Lies for children.
God - Ok so afte a couple of million years...
Secretary - Hold on, how much is a couple million years?
God - Sigh... ok so on the first _day_ I made light using what I like to call the Big Bang.
Secretary - Sorry that's too long and my hand hurts. I'll just write God made light on the first day.
God - Sigh....
I don't actually see that much problem with being both beliver of evolution and the Big bang and being a christian. I think the problem is that people read the bible like it was a book about natural science instead of what it realy is ie a history book and a book about ethics.
"This message was brought to you by Sarcasm and Troll Feeders United (or STFU, for you un-hip people)."
Falwell, Pat Robertson, Robert Tilton, Kenneth Copeland, everyone on Trinity Broadcasting Network, and this stupid-ass museum...
PLEASE GO AWAY or SHUT THE HELL UP! You're fscking embarrassing.
Except TBN - you're Jesus pimps... which is far worse. The Bible has something to say about pimping God... and that He doesn't take kindly to it.
guns kill people like spoons make Rosie O'Donnell fat.
I notice they're not closed for Jewish holidays. As a jewish person, I always find that interesting.
I went to the flickr gallery and was stunned and fascinated (shocked and awed?) at the exhibit which "explained" where Cain got his wife and why it was okay for him to marry (and have sex, although the "S" word is never used) his sister.
For your edification I copied out the central "argument" for you to mock (er, I mean discuss.)
"The farther back in history one goes (back towards the Fall of Adam), the less of a problem mutation in the human population would be.
At the time of Adam and Eve's children, there would have been very few mutations in the human genome--thus close relatives could marry, and provided it was one man for one woman (the biblical doctrine of marriage), there was nothing wrong with close relatives marrying in early biblical history."
B.S. (Bedevere Science) all. (SIR BEDEVERE: And that, my liege, is how we know the earth to be banana-shaped. ARTHUR: This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedevere. Explain again how sheep's bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.)
Read any good sonnets lately?
The more I think we seriously need to consider "weeding out the population" of all the dumb shits too stupid to accept...
Yes! Death to everyone whose theological beliefs don't agree with your own. That will show the religious extremists!
... That I went to a strict Catholic school, had Jesuits as science teachers, and Creation was relegated to Religion hour? In class, it was Darwin or bust, the Earth was some 5 billions years old, and nobody questioned evolution. Ever. And those who taught were priests.
I once asked my biology teacher (Jesuit) about the Bible's recount of the Creation. Answer: "The Bible was written by men, and inspired by God. Do you think He could have gone to some Bronze Age guys and told them about atoms, mass-energy equivalence, aminoacids and DNA? That was Abraham and company He was talking to, not Mr Spock."
You folks need some of these Jesuits types, methinks.
That's what I say. I am naked even as I type this message.
intolerance is evil
intolerance of intolerance is actually good
in fact, to meet a fundamentalist, and for them to call you intolerant, as in, hypocritically intolerant, is actually a badge of achievement
because you are not hypocritically intolerant if you are intolerant of them
because what they don't understand is that fundamentalism is true intolerance, and therefore to be intolerant of that is actually to strive in the direction of more tolerance
intolerant: "because you are not a true christian/ true muslim, i am better than you" =evil
intolerance of intolerance: "because you consider yourself better than me based on your religious bigotry, i am intolerant of you" =good
intolerance can be predicated on a number of characteristics of a person that is not intolerant in and of themselves: race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.
intolerance can also be predicated on someone else's intolerance: not tolerating their intolerance of someone because of race, religion, seuxla orientation, etc.
so you can judge any tolerance in question as to what it is opposed to. and if it is opposed to some inherently nonintolerant feature of a person, it is true intolerance. but if it is opposed to an intolerant feature of the person themselves, it is not intolerance, it is a form of tolerance, because it directed against real intolerance
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Has any one seen either creation or evolution take place? I know each camp has it's own examples on why their correct, i.e. different minerals at different layers in the earths crust, or how one giant rock in Australia is smooth. In my opinion if no one has seen it happen it takes just as much faith to believe one or the other.
There are at least 2 sides to everything.
No, there are not. There are not two sides to facts. Facts have exactly one side. That's what a fact is.
I don't respond to AC's.
They have no right to EQUAL treatment. Would you like your child in school to be taught the Earth has a 50-50 chance of being flat?
~~~ Paf. Le chien.
You are correct. Except in politics and love, there is generally a "right" and a "wrong" side. That's what's so nice about science and mathematics - eventually we will be able to sort out who was right and who was wrong, even if we aren't terribly certain of which side is which today.
Perhaps the difficulty here is that from the perspective of creationists, this a politcal issue, and for scientists it's a scientific matter. Similar tension exists in the global warming debate. For some people its a scientific discussion, but for many (on both "sides") it is more of a political issue.
FWIW, I skimmed your article, and was not impressed. It was a literalist baptist who got a bunch of warm fuzzies from the creatinist descriptions while his kids played with the dinosaur models. No doubt a fun day, but it sounded a bit like a [democrat/republican going] to a [democratic/republican] working group meeting while the kids played (Don't break the ice/Monopoly], and coming out energized and ready to change the world for the better.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
May they be touched by His Noodly Appendage and realise the error of their ways. Ramen.
"we've got trenchcoats and bad attitudes" - John Constantine, HellBlazer
The sermon on the Mount. It basically destroys any attempt at proselityzation. Whenever I see someone preaching openly I just ask them if they remember Matthew 6. Uusually shuts them up, whether they do or not.
I never spellcheck and I freely admit it. Save your karma for more worthwhile "lol erorrs" replies
more than half the US citizens DEMAND that their president be 'a man of faith'.
did you notice, in all the recent debates, how GOD keeps being mentioned?
in the USA of jesusland, you CANNOT get elected unless you hang out under stained glass windows on sundays and eat cookies and drink wine. or so it seems.
(well, nothing wrong with a good wine/cookie break, every now and then; but its hardly an attribute I require in the POTUS)
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
I'm definitely not a creationist, but don't think for a minute that psuedo- and anti-science is limited to religious zealots.
Look at all the things that people buy into today, particularly in Europe, such as homeopathy, reflexology, chiropractics, magnet therapy, colonics, yadda yadda. How many people believe that irradiated strawberries are radioactive? How many people sit around worrying about the "toxins" in the body? How many people belive that Feng Shui increases the positive "energy" in a room?
I see your XKCD, and raise you one more!
Well, you may have a point, but the thing with scientifc theory is that it never says 'this is true and everything else is wrong and we may not even question this theory, because that's how it is.' The whole point is that we don't know what we don't know, but we'll try to do our best to explain it and we will constantly re-evaluate what we've come up with so far and continually re-test and question what we're at. THAT's what I respect.
I've always had a problem with any sort of authority that refuses discussion.
Too many repetitions of "carbon dating said some rock was a trillion years old!" have soured me on this tactic, so if you want to bring in "the last oil field we found" as evidence, you're going to have to recognize that oil fields are found all the time and identify yours a little more precisely.
Your own anecdotes are more amusingly distorted than most, too. Usually creationists at least try to get the Bible right. Seven versus ten plagues isn't as big an error as years versus millions of years, but whereas the latter error is just sad, the former is kinda funny.
To accept the idea that the universe is really old, and the earth is really old (when compaired to you and me) and we were not always here, nore were we always the most intrusive species on the plannet, and that there are a whole lot of planets, and that when your dead your worm bait, you might have to accept your own insignificance.
Some people prefer not to do that.
I think you underestimate just how much I just dont care.
Not really. As someone else mentioned, it was built by an Australian, but all it proves is that any individual or group of people (no matter how small) with enough money can build anything they want. Having been through the school system, I can assure you that the vast majority of American schools teach Evolution with a fervor that nearly assigns it as actual history (rather than theory), and if the Judeo-Christian concept of Creation is taught at all, it is presented as mythology alongside Roman, Greek, Chaldean and other creation mythology. What people choose to believe despite this education is not really in any way related to success or failure on the part of the schools. It is not the school's responsibility to form your opinions for you. It's their responsibility to provide you with information that allows you to form your own opinions and understand differing opinions of others. Surely you don't think that schools should punish children who refuse to acknowledge the authority of Evolution, do you? Yes, I know that there are a few schools who have been dabbling in "Intelligent Design", but despite the media attention this has received, it's not very widespread in the public school system.
Now, on a separate note, there _are_ serious problems with the American education system, but they are more related to attempts to "dumb down" material (New Math anyone?) and the inability to recognize how children learn best and work with their natural proclivities. They don't do a good job of teaching logic and critical thinking. They wait until the children are too old to start teaching foreign languages. They have replaced much of the classical literature with more modern trash. They no longer discipline unruly students properly, instead allowing them to become a distraction to students who are are interested in learning. But most of all, out of fear of a lawsuit from the parents, they allow students to matriculate without a satisfactory understanding of the basic prerequisites for the next grade.
GreyPoopon
--
Why is it I can write insightful comments but can't come up with a clever signature?
1) build museum
2) charge entry
3)
4) PROFIT!
I think many of the evo debators have exaggerated the evidence for evo and have become kind of fanatical themselves. Although I beleive in it, the evidence is *not* overwelming, and hyping it as such turns some away.
First off is the Cambrian Explosion. Most of the modern body plans (Phyla) came out of appearently nowhere. We don't have a good record of how they got the way they did. Suddenly there are lobster-like and fish-like critters swimming and crawling around eating each other. Nobody knows where they came from before that. It is even possible that early metazoans were able to swap genes with each other (perhaps via microbe infections), making their origin virtually untracable as tree-based decent.
Evo has not been demonstrated making large-scale complicated life-forms under full, controlled, and repeatable observation. Incrimental changes do not necessarily equal large changes. Lots of forces make incrimental changes. Thus, the "scale problem" is still out there. Making a beak grow larger is not the same as making brains and immune systems.
"Time ate my homework" is not good enough. Science is picky, I am just the mesenger.
Table-ized A.I.
My hypothesis is that this is a product of a society that has grown "too safe"; our programmed fight-or-flight mechanisms are still an inherent part of us and yet rarely do they have a reason to be triggered. To compensate, we seem to thrive on artificial, constructed fears, like toxins, or in the case of the general US population, terrorism (which is *highly* unlikely to kill you). I believe that anxiety and depressive disorders are on the rise, and this is in part responsible. (FWIW, I have Generalized Anxiety Disorder, i.e. irrational anxiety about unpredictable things, and I feel that if my anxiety was "directed" towards real threats that my condition wouldn't be an issue. To me, this is evidenced by the fact that when real trauma or dangerous situations occur, I tend to be highly functional and the deeply intensified fear serves a purpose, and when the situation is over, I am left calm for quite some time.)
What scares me is not that people believe this stuff, but that people who believe this stuff are getting into public office and passing laws that affect me. I've read more than one message in this thread decrying other posters for speaking out against the Creationist museum. I ask you to please consider your obligation as a US citizen (if you are a US citizen) to participate in the democratic process.
If our elected officials change our government such that it adopts policies in line with Creationist views, and you disagree with those views, it is your right -- your obligation -- to express your contrary opinion in spoken and written form, as well as in the voting booth. The mere existence of a Creationist museum scares me because it means that there are enough voters to push our government in what I feel is a bad direction. The Creationists have a right to have the museum and express their views. But I have a right, and a duty, to express my views that they are mistaken, to argue against their beliefs.
Here's a thought experiment to illustrate my point: Imagine that all medical research and treatment, everywhere in the US from now on, had to adhere to strict supervision by a board of politicians and clergy with fundamentalist views. Now wait 100 years. What do you think the state of US medical technology would be in such a case?
1) How does one express an epic level eye roll in text?
2) I am the only one that thinks that they put this thing in Kentucky because they think that everyone there is an inbred hill billy who won't know any better? (Not saying that everyone from Kentucky *is* an inbred hill billy but that the people who put the museum there think this)
3) Haven't we figured out by now religion and science don't mix? Copernicus, Galileo, Da Vinci, and who knows who else?
4) Umm....the book of Genesis doesn't exactly print out a recipe for world building and population. If it said something like 2 cups of flour, 1 cup of butter.....bake at 350 for 20 minutes, I might be willing to buy this. But the fact of the matter is that it doesn't. Instead it gives us a big allegorical story and makes all sorts of references about the fact that time for God doesn't pass like it does for us humans. I myself see no conflict between evolution and religion. They are answers to separate questions - Why and How.
5) Am I the only one that finds it odd that a bunch of nutballs who don't even bother to read their own holy book swear that the it is the literal word God even though it was originally written in Aramaic, translated in to Hebrew, then to Latin, then to Greek, and the back to Latin, and then to English? And that's a best case scenario for most of the books of the "Bible".
6) Am I the only one who really questions the validity of the King James version, the one that most of the swear is "true and correct"? King James had all sorts of things tucked into his translation that supported his divine right to rule. It was politically motivated and PAID FOR by a King - as in "You didn't do what I said. Off with his head!" kind of a King at that.
7) What about the places where the Bible contradicts itself? Since its the literal word of God, that makes God wrong and since God is infallible, he can't be wrong, therefore - using their own logic - God did not write the Bible OR God isn't God.
Oh, but we can ignore all of the historical facts because we have "faith".
2 cents,
QueenB.
HDGary secures my bank
If so many US citizens are aware of this bullshit going on in their country, why is nothing done?
What would you have us do? Attack the museum with pitch forks and burn it down? It was created by private citizens. The down side to freedom of speeh is that alot of speech is stupid.
I'm parafrasing a quote that I can't remember the source of, but The way to combat bad ideas is not attempt to silence them but to make them irrelevant with better ideas.
Amen to that!!
One thing that most everyone conveniently overlooks in the book of Genesis is this:
Cain just killed his brother, Able and is confronted by God... (Genesis 4:14-15)
"Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me." But the LORD said to him, "Not so [a] ; if anyone kills Cain, he will suffer vengeance seven times over." Then the LORD put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him.
Now, riddle me this Batman - If Adam & Eve (his very own parents and family) are the ONLY other people who exist, who is going to see Cain, not recognize him and kill him? Why would God have to mark him to keep anyone else from killing him? Who is Cain worried about?
2 cents,
QueenB.
HDGary secures my bank
This is how the debate between sound science and "intelligent design" looks from the sidelines. Note here that we replace the theory that life was created by an intelligent designer {who logically must have been created by a more intelligent designer, and so forth, since any mechanism which would account for the spontaneous generation of an intelligent designer must be capable of spontaneously generating life} with the theory that all roses are red. This has little bearing on the quality of the debate.
IDist: All woses are wed.
Scientist: No they aren't. Look. Produces white rose A white rose.
IDist: That is obviouthly not a wose. All woses are wed. That flower is white. Therefore it cannot be a wose.
Scientist: It is a rose. A white rose. Performs some unspecified test which demonstrates that the white flower indeed belongs to the genus Rosa.
IDist: Well, OK then, I acthept that it may be a wose, but you still haven't dithpwoved my theowy. Even you must surely have to admit that it is sort of a bit wed-ish. No, it's not a white rose -- it's just a vewy pale wed wose. You still haven't dithpwoved my theowy. All woses are wed!
Scientist: Now you're just talking bollocks.
IDist: Waaaah! You used a naughty word! Well, that just pwoves it, doesn't it? All woses are wed. I win! Come on, mummy, buy me an ithe cweam!
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
Having said that, the scientific community is typically quite open to new ideas and concepts when they are put forth in a rational fashion. The issue comes when there is significant disproof of a concept, and yet its proponents insist on being given "fair treatment". A prime example is the current fear of "electrosensitivty", where people are convinced that Wifi/mobile phones etc are giving them headaches and so forth. The idea was actively investigated and it was found that, although many patients suffered real symptoms, they were not correlated to the presence of microwave radiation, and the idea was largely dismissed. However there is still a growing group of 'sufferers' who claim that their problems need to be investigated, that the scientific community is ignoring them, and so forth. People with an entrenched opinion tend to only see the surveys which support their cause, while work which investigates their argument but does not support it often ends up getting dismissed out of hand (often as part of a conspiracy of some sort).
As a Christian, I've been dreading the opening of this museum. It can only undermine what little dwindling respect remains for the Bible and for God.
Not all Christians believe the King James Version is a perfect literal translation, and therefore that earth was created in less than a literal week. Some of us are at least willing to accept that the ancient word translated "day" in Genesis has more possible translations than "a 24 hour period", and dinosaurs never walked among humans.
Another example: their model of the ark isn't just unrealistic, it's unscriptural--the Bible clearly states the ark of the flood was box-shaped. Sure, this might seem like a petty point compared to some of the more obvious and scientific blunders, but it only goes to support the point that this museum is more interested in pandering to neo-Christian tradition than explaining Bible truth.
There are other references to a huge flood in relation to the biblical great flood. The epic of Gilgamesh references a great flood. Wikipedia has others http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_(mythology)
It rained for 40 days and 40 nights. 40 in the bible (and other arabic cultures) was used as an uncountable number. 'I cooked dozens of cookies' does not mean that I baked cookies in some unnamed multiple of 12, it means I cooked a lot of cookies. 'I drove a thousand miles to get here' does not mean that I drove 5,280,000 feet, it means that I drove a long way.
The number 40 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/40_(number) has interesting religious significance. It is mentioned many other times.
Nice "spycology" there, bringing up "transposing" of feelings. Projection is the term you want, but it is not the all purpose "I'm rubber, you're glue" kind of rejoinder you're making it out to be. I suggest you read some more books on "spycology" before trying to apply it in a debate. In any case, its a transparent attempt at poisoning the well.
Sorry, but it IS the same science that makes cars, TVs, and all our modern conveniences that says the universe is a certain age. You are no scientist and have no understanding of science. It all hangs together in a vast web of interrelations. If one part of that web were false, it would have ripple effects on all of the rest of science. You can't just isolate the part that says the universe is X years old from the part that, say, lets us make televisions.
No one hates you for your religious views. Get over your Christian persecution complex. Christians control this country and dominate the political and social landscape. You people are not persecuted. We think your religion is stupid, and we think people shouldn't pay any attention to it. That is not the same as hating you.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
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The Big Valley Creation Science Museum has recently opened in "Big Valley", Alberta, Canada - just a 3 hour drive from where I live. It has been built awfully darn close (1hr drive) to the REAL kind of museum you would expect to see in this area full of Dinosaur remains
I look forward to visiting BVCSM wearing my "Reality fish eating a Jesus fish" shirt.
You don't get it. It's very simple. You can not sense things outside your mind. Do you think you are seeing the real flag, the real wind? No, you are seeing what your mind has created out of sense impressions. Duh.
It's not about a senior figure. In Buddhism, one is accounted "senior" in any sense only because others all agree that your wisdom is valuable. There are plenty of other stories in Buddhism where the "senior figure" is shown to be a fool, and the cook or the janitor who no one noticed is shown to be wise.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
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Cafeteria Christianity is a pejorative term, used in general to describe individual Christians or Christian churches who selectively follow or believe in the doctrines of their religion, particularly what the Bible states as being the word or will of God. The use of the term suggests that the believers being so described are not as legitimate as other Christians. As cafeteria style means to pick-and-choose, as in choosing what food to purchase from a cafeteria line, the implication of the term "Cafeteria Christianity" is that the individual's professed religious belief is actually a proxy for their personal opinions rather than a genuine interpretation of or spiritual relationship with Christian doctrine or the teachings of Jesus. The selectivity implied may relate to the acceptance of Christian doctrines (such as creationism and the virgin birth of Jesus) or Biblical morality and ethical prohibitions (e.g. a rejection of homosexual acts and dietary laws) and is often associated with discussions concerning the applicability of Old Testament laws to Christians and the Sermon on the Mount.
The label "Cafeteria Christianity" has been used both to encourage more conformity with Biblical teachings and to advocate for less. When used by Conservative Christians, it is often an expression of a preference for a more literal and uniform approach to the Bible, rather than the carefree do-what-you-want theology preferred (as some see it) by Liberal Christians. The term in this sense thus expresses contempt for those viewed as lax in their Christianity.
It is also used by some Christians and skeptics to undermine the advocacy of particular Christian precepts by pointing out the supposed inconsistency of the advocate's position. The logic of such a usage is that someone who has rejected one supposed command of God has little room to argue that another such command should be followed. Thus these individuals observe that some Christians are more than willing to condemn certain behavior on Biblical grounds and yet do not themselves adhere to the Bible in its totality, i.e. a charge of hypocrisy. For an example, see An Atheist argument on Cafeteria Christianity. The counter argument is usually that, according to the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 (as well as some Paul's letters), Gentile Christians are not obliged to keep the entire Old Testament Law.
The term Cafeteria Catholic (also à la carte Catholic or CINO = "Catholic In Name Only") is a pejorative or an insulting characterization and is used to describe people who dissent from certain teachings of the Roman Catholic Church while maintaining an identity as Catholics. These people are said to view the Church much like a "cafeteria", where one picks and chooses only those items that appeal to them. The term is typically applied to those who blatently dissent from selected Catholic moral teaching on issues such as abortion, contraception, premarital sex, and homosexuality. The term is less frequently applied to those who dissent from other Catholic moral teaching on issues such as social justice, capital punishment, or just war. Groups labeled as such include Call to Action, FutureChurch, DignityUSA, and Catholics for a Free Choice. Some of those who employ the term in their vocabulary accuse those who view the term pejoratively of believing dissent from the constant teaching of the Church to be a form of devoutness.
It should be noted that the this epithet is not created, used, or endorsed by official church teaching. However, the practice of selective adherence to the magisterium of the church has been repeatedly condemned through the teaching of the Popes:
* In a homily delivered on April 18, 2005, Pope Benedict XVI clarified the relation of dissent to faith:
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If so many US citizens are aware of this bullshit going on in their country, why is nothing done?
Only 53% of them believe evolution, that's why.
If that poll doesn't send shivers down your spine, I don't know what could. 53% don't care if their president doesn't believe in evolution. 53%. 53% are basically saying: scientific method = garbage. 53%.
66% believe that God created humans in the last 10,000 years. 66%. Unreal.
It's mind boggling.
The writers of the bible claimed to be inspired by God, but no part of the Bible actually constitutes God's word, not even when Jesus speaks, as our minds rarely remember quotes exactly, and not a single book of the Bible was written by Jesus. I'm tired of the extremists from both sides telling me I can't accept the morality of Jesus without accepting every insane 4000-year-old metaphor given by people who had no word to literally explain what happened even if they knew.
Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
also has a porn website. You might be able to see Eve naked there.
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5) Am I the only one that finds it odd that a bunch of nutballs who don't even bother to read their own holy book swear that the it is the literal word God even though it was originally written in Aramaic, translated in to Hebrew, then to Latin, then to Greek, and the back to Latin, and then to English? And that's a best case scenario for most of the books of the "Bible".
Wow. I'm not sure I've ever seen a more fundamentally ignorant statement on Slashdot. This translational game of telephone that you're proposing is divorced from all history. Textual transmission is nothing like what you're suggesting. Our English translations are not obtained from Latin texts; they are obtained from the original languages (Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic).
The Old Testament:
Originally written in Hebrew, except for three or four small sections written in Aramaic. The main Hebrew manuscripts we have now is called the Masoretic text, compiled by the Masoretes in the 9th & 10th centuries. It's a Hebrew manuscript, and does not come from any translational lineage. We also have the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the Old Testament written before the time of Jesus.
The New Testament:
Originally written in Greek. We have that Greek. (We have many manuscripts copied at different times, some dating back to the second century.) We also have the early Latin translation called the Vulgate, but the Greek manuscripts we have did not come from the Vulgate. We have both. We also have some other early translations (e.g. into coptic/Egyptian language).
Now, there are some who think that the NT was originally in Aramaic. This is highly unlikely for much of the NT, written as letters to Greek Christians throughout the Roman empire. It may be more reasonable for the Gospels, and some of the letters written to primarily Jewish Christians. Hey, Luke's gospel account starts out with a statement that he'd sought out many witnesses as his research, and it's entirely likely that some of that was Aramaic.
So even granting Aramaic primacy for all the NT, the chain for the NT is Aramaic-->Greek. We have that Greek. For the OT, it's just Hebrew (with a little bit written in Aramaic). We have that, too. For both, we also have various later translations, but those translations are not part of the lineage that we have now. For instance, there is no Latin in the lineage of our OT manuscripts at all--that was a ridiculous error. (I.e., our Greek manuscripts are copied from earlier Greek manuscripts, back to the originals.) The English translations are from the Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic, with no lineage of translation except possibly Aramaic-->Greek.
I want to go to the Creation Museum just to read the graffiti that will inevitably show up on the men's room walls.
"Flush twice, it's a long way to the curator's office," etc.
You are confusing corralation for causation and making an argument from ignorance. That, for example, Chairman Mao was atheist has not been shown to be the cause of his actions as a dicatator. If such were true, then it could be said that all Seventh Day Adventists are cult leaders because David Koresh was one.
Additionally, lack of precedent does not indicate impossibility. That you can not imagine how a society, that is not permeated by religion, can be peaceful, joyous, and enlightened does not preclude it from occurring, or having occurred.
So, unless you are planning on proving that the failures in Hitler's Germany, USSR, and Communist China are a direct result of atheism your argument holds no water.
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When you consider that all three of the men you listed lived and died well before Darwin published "On The Origin Of Species", yeah, it's pretty likely they didn't believe in evolution.
Adam and Eve were placed on earth by the Universal father to uplift the genetics of the inhabitants of earth. The offspring of Adam and Eve were to go out and then breed with the peoples of earth, giving them the opportunity to jump ahead in evolution. They got kicked out of the garden because Eve fell in love with a dirt person(regular earthling) and they had sex, this was forbidden by the Universal Father because for one reason or another.
Lucifer is not evil, he was kicked out of the club because he wanted to give the true information about why and how earthlings came about and didnt agree with the Universal Father about keeping the truth from the earthlings, he felt that the mud people on earth had a right to know about there universal history. The great default was when Lucifer destroyed the wormwhole so that the Universal superbeings could no longer interfere with earth.
LOL
My guess is that there are no reasons - you only believe in your particular ancient set of stories because you have been told that they are really true and the others really aren't. I didn't need to make any hard decision not to believe; all I had to do is observe the rather obvious fact that humans are very good at making shit up that just isn't true. Not believing is very easy when the reasons people give you to believe are so very weak.
You give me better reasons than the ones I've seen currently - and no, tacit threats about the fate of an eternal essence I have no reason to believe exists is not going to cut it. Your choice of language shows you do not really comprehend the idea.
The world was not built for us. We evolved to use the world as is - no warranties, no lifetime guarantees. Our existence on the Earth today is entirely irrelevant to the universe as a whole.
The rain does not stop when we go outside - we use umbrellas. The hole was not designed for the puddle - the water fits the hole. And so on. You are all back-to-front here. Serenity is irrelevant to truth.
You have serenity? Good for you. Doesn't mean your god exists. It's that simple really. More emotional blackmail. Comprehend this: I will not be joining your fold because you decide to try and manipulate my emotions into me reasoning that Bad Things Will Happen TM if I don't. Either you put up or shut up - and I'm afraid your site is about as deeply impressive as all the other one's I have seen that can make no more substantial argument for their deity being a real entity other than they would really rather like it if it was. But sure if you think there's a particular killer argument there I should see that may even be vaguely original point me to it.
It is interesting to me that those who protest the loudest about their opponents being closed minded seem to be the most closed minded themselves. After all, you have serenity - pretty powerful emotion. Now what's a little truth compared to feeling good eh? Better close that mind off to ideas that might interfere with that.
I thought what it means to be a Christian was settled by the various Ecumenical Councils. Specifically Councils one through seven. If you just follow the teachings of Christ but do not subscribe to the beliefs expressed in the first seven councils, the rest of Christianity considers you to be a heretic.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Please - history is replete with people 'meeting' deities of all various kinds. It is not unique to Christianity and all you can say is that they are wrong and you are right... because you're are sure that you have really met your deity and they are just delusional. Hmm...
Again, this is all rather based on the presumption that the universe desires our existence rather than our existence being tangential to reality. The implication does not work - if we are the only life in the universe and our existence seems to be statistically unlikely it does not mean that we have in fact been purposely placed here. It is a very weak argument based on an abuse of probability theory.
Again this is a weak argument. You claim your god doesn't want me to believe in him whilst at the same time telling me that if I don't then Bad Things Will Happen TM. It also seems rather amusing to me since the specific deity you said doesn't want to show us proof of his existence did it all the bloody time in your book! He sent his son to die as proof of his love! Even Thomas got his doubt rescinded by proof. And yet modern Christians tell me that somehow that if I come to believe in god without similar proof then this is good because I got to exercise my free-will... er, so free-will wasn't so important to your god in the past?
*Sigh* - all the same old, same old.
Um, because it's a good story and people like stories? You are making this all too easy...
What satisfies you is irrelevant to me. I see no reason to believe in ghosts either.
But you are - right? I bet you're not open to the possibility for one second that your belief that you have been in direct contact with your deity may be a cognitive failure on your part of which you have no control over? Didn't think so. You must be right - you're sure about it. That's always been reliable in the past right? Nobody in the history of mankind has ever been sure about wrong things have they? No, I guess not. As long as you're sure I guess you must be right then... screw anyone else who says they're sure you're wrong!
It's got nothing to do with your chosen deity. This is where the facts you say you accept lead us - there is no sense in which it can be said that this planet was specifically constructed for our use when our use of it has been for an absolutely minuscule period of time. And faith is belief for no particular reason - I don't need to rely on faith what can be demonstrated - you don't. As far as you're concerned your god has demonstrated itself to you. Screw free-will! Screw faith! You have been given confirmation!
If I read one more "no christian ever persucuted anyone evar" post, it'll be the millionth too many.
I imagine the quality of your discussions with Christians would improve if you didn't engage in this sort of flaming mischaracterization. The GP did not say that no Christian ever persecuted anyone. He didn't even say that Copernicus was never objected to on religious grounds; he said that Copernicus' bishop encouraged him to spread his research. In other words, the GP provided a bit of balance to the discussion, providing a more complete view--something you seem determined to prevent.
Science has been both opposed and promoted by religious people, on religious grounds.
Why can't it be both? I've never understood that. It's only really naive people who take the biblical creation story completely literally, especially when it's been translated so many times from the original. For example, when it says that the earth was created in six days that doesn't mean six twenty-four-hour periods. God could have just as easily taken his sweet time and created the world over millions of years (after all he invented everything that we use science to try and figure out), but try explaining that to people 2000 years ago...
Having only read a tiny amount on the origions of modern monotheism in Sumerian, Assyrian and Babylonian myth, it still becomes pretty obvious that most of what many millions of people have foughten and died for was another man's entertainment.
Eh? Are you comparing different deities to having different burger choices? So you've decided everyone is seeing YOUR god if they claim to be divinely touched? How arrogant.
What the hell are you talking about?
Yep - must be a god. That's sealed it.
Next fallacy on the list: martyr fallacy. Because obviously no-one has ever died for a false belief - nope, never happened ever. Never mind the facts! People died! That makes it true!
Found in so many continents? What, so the invention of the printing press and global distribution of Bibles by people who believe they have to get the Bible out to everyone so they can 'save' them is proof of the truth of the Bible? You've got to be shitting me! Not to mention this internal consistency everyone says the Bible has is mightily lacking in my analysis.
Is it possible that you are being jerked around by the Olympian gods for their own sick games?
I cannot find any references to this charming story so assuming it's not bullshit: please tell me - did the Christians tell these scientists they were stupid because the Bible tells us the speed of light is 3x10^8 m/s? What's that? They didn't? So your point would be then that the religious did nothing to advance scientific knowledge and when someone came along and demonstrated the junebug man was full of shit using science actually your god had something to do with it? What's your point? Science gets the chance to correct itself whilst the Bible will be as wrong today as it was when it was first written down?
So again was it a bunch of Christians thumping the Bible who discovered the lightning creates Ozone? No? It wasn't? You mean the Bible says nothing about Ozone whatsoever? What is your point exactly?
Oh and it should be noted that CFCs still cause ozone depletion - that fact has never changed. Pumping enough CFCs into the atmosphere and the rate of destruction will be greater than the rate of replenishment.
That's really easy when your religion hasn't made any new predictions in the last 2000 years.
Of course what you don't get is that science thrives on being wrong because that's how it grows. Your religion doesn't thrive on being wrong because it is static - if it's wrong yesterday it'll be wrong tomorrow.