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Germany Seeks Expansion of Computer Spying

Posted by Zonk on from the government-in-your-pocket-on-your-laptop-on-your-hard-drive dept.

gooman writes "The LA Times reports on a proposal to secretly scan suspects' hard drives which is causing unease in a nation with a history of official surveillance. Along with several other European countries, Germany is seeking authority to plant secret Trojan viruses into the computers of suspects that could scan files, photos, diagrams and voice recordings, record every keystroke typed and possibly even turn on webcams and microphones in an attempt to gain knowledge of attacks before they happen."

136 of 177 comments (clear)

  1. Europe beating USA in the big brother arms race by MeditationSensation · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You hear a lot of stories on sites these days about the USA turning into a police state, but I think the UK (all those CCTVs) and I guess now Germany are really kicking our butts in that department lately.

    1. Re:Europe beating USA in the big brother arms race by N3WBI3 · · Score: 1

      Oh so you're police state has the force of law behind it making it nearly impossible to stop and all we need is the dems to grow a pair to stop out state?

      --
    2. Re:Europe beating USA in the big brother arms race by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I don't know who "we" is for you, but here in the UK, it's official in name only: most of the laws being passed today that affect me are either coming from Europe (where the Commission I don't get a say in electing trump the Parliament I do), Gordon Brown and his administration (who were never elected and have no legitimate mandate whatsoever), or my local County Council (who are imposing very unpopular measures on my city — which gets represented by only a few seats on the County Council — in direct conflict with the City Council).

      In other words, I haven't even had a chance to vote either for or against any of the three major levels of government that can make "official" rules that affect me today. They may be official on pretty headed paper, but they've no more ethical basis than a third world dictator.

      However, for the first time today, senior figures in a credible opposition party started talking openly about mass civil disobedience in protest against one of these heavy-handed laws imposed by a government with little popular support. There is yet hope...

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    3. Re:Europe beating USA in the big brother arms race by owlnation · · Score: 1, Troll

      Yes, Airstrip One is proudly ahead of the rest of Oceania. The US is many orders of magnitude freer than the UK.

      The UK government is probably already doing this, who needs democratic authority in a country where citizens have no right to free speech. And most are too drunk or hungover to think clearly enough to exercise that right on any given day. Seriously, if you know what's good for you, stay away from Britain. V for Vendetta may yet turn out to be a documentary.

      Incidentally, I'd be interested in how anyone defines "suspect" in this context.

    4. Re:Europe beating USA in the big brother arms race by zeromorph · · Score: 3, Informative

      That's why the campaign against this trojan and the telecommunications data retention law is called Stasi 2.0

      (The man on the logo is the Minister of the Interior Schäuble.)

      --
      "Hannibal's plans never work right. They just work." Amy/A-Team
    5. Re:Europe beating USA in the big brother arms race by Opportunist · · Score: 2, Informative

      For those not familiar with the terms of the former German Democratic Republic, the "Stasi" was the "Ministerium für Staatssicherheit" (department for interior security). Comparable with the Gestapo of earlier German times.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    6. Re:Europe beating USA in the big brother arms race by mrbluze · · Score: 1

      In other words, I haven't even had a chance to vote either for or against any of the three major levels of government that can make "official" rules that affect me today. They may be official on pretty headed paper, but they've no more ethical basis than a third world dictator.

      What I think is the scariest thing is the thought that statements like yours might one day attract the eye of the spying government and get people into trouble.

      I remember during a visit to the former USSR, talking to a woman who spent 10 years in a Soviet labour camp. She was 16, working in a bakery that had sold out of bread. Another woman demanded a loaf of bread and she said "Go ask Stalin for your bread, 'cause he didn't send us any flour." That statement alone resulted in her imprisonment, torture and almost her death.

      Now if she could have said that and remained anonymous, then she would have been ok.

      --
      Do it yourself, because no one else will do it yourself. [beta blockade 10-17 Feb]
    7. Re:Europe beating USA in the big brother arms race by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      I'm not going to argue that the EU comission is the pinncale of democratic legitimacy, but the EU comission gets appointed by the 27 (democratically) elected governments (one of which you had the chance to vote for)

      Except that I didn't, as noted later in my post.

      In any case, the European Commission is just a dumping ground for political friends who have no credibility left at home, precisely because the Powers That Be can appoint people there with impunity. They then use the rules created by those eurocrats as an excuse to impose legislation back home that would never fly with the electorate if proposed directly. It's a sweet deal... if your interests involve pushing through legislation against the will of the electorate.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    8. Re:Europe beating USA in the big brother arms race by Nazlfrag · · Score: 1

      For those not familiar with the terms of the former German Democratic Republic, the "Stasi" was the "Ministerium für Staatssicherheit" (department for interior security). Comparable with the Gestapo of earlier German times.

      <tinfoil>Or the US Department of Homeland Security in modern times.</tinfoil>

    9. Re:Europe beating USA in the big brother arms race by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Quoth the AC:

      You elected the party, Brown leads it now. Deal with it.

      Why should I? Here's some electoral facts for you, from the 2005 general election:

      • Labour received only 1/3 or so of the votes, which corresponds to only 22% of the total electorate. Despite this, Labour holds an absolute majority in Parliament and by a substantial margin.
      • Labour lost the popular vote in England to the Conservatives. Despite this, Labour currently has 286 MPs for English constituencies, while the Conservatives have only 194 (and the incidental changes since the general election are nowhere close to this margin).
      • Labour campaigned on a promise that Tony Blair would serve a full third term as Prime Minister, i.e., voters were explicitly not voting for a party Gordon Brown would be leading before the next election.
      • Gordon Brown could have called an election this summer to establish a personal mandate, but decided at the last minute not to risk the alternative ending.

      So apart from the fact that our first past the post electoral system is pretty crooked to begin with, the Labour Party's mandate to hold those seats in government expired the moment a central promise of their pre-election manifesto was broken and they have carefully avoided seeking an independent mandate for the new administration.

      Now, you can cut that any way you want and make smart-ass comments as an AC if you like, but it's still no more than a pretence of representative democracy. I wonder how our friends in the US would react if Bush was forced out of office, some other Republican with significantly different views was appointed to replace him without a vote, and that person set about restaffing the entire administration and rewriting policy, knowing he was completely immune to any sort of electoral consequences for several years anyway.

      Representation is a rather essential part of representative democracy. That's why Labour has no mandate in England. That's also why people frown on measures that could be used to skew the measurement of what the people want when their representatives are chosen, such as those in Germany that we're discussing here. Speaking of which, this little thread has drifted rather off-topic, so now, back to our normally scheduled political ranting... :-)

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    10. Re:Europe beating USA in the big brother arms race by arminw · · Score: 1

      .....Incidentally, I'd be interested in how anyone defines "suspect" in this context........

      Anyone that the government doesn't like for some reason or no reason. Since all Governments are run by people, it would some person in that Government who is ambitious or was paid off by someone rich/powerful/ambitius. May the 'suspect' is innocent, maybe not, but that can be irrelevant.

      --
      All theory is gray
    11. Re:Europe beating USA in the big brother arms race by Burz · · Score: 1

      CCTVs have vecome quite popular in places like NYC. And the FBI has already used cellphone carriers to remotely modify smartphone firmware to eavesdrop on suspects, even when the phones appeared to be turned off. It is no great leap to apply the same procedures to PCs (and indeed, they are).

      As for the Internet, the cozy relationship between VeriSign and the NSA anf FBI through the eavesdropping ("legal intercept") services it offers. That means much of your https traffic can be decrypted with nary a complaint from your browser.

      Americans also often overlook the fact that the constitution was dispensed with decades ago in the 'war on drugs', turning many inner cities into police-state surveillance zones that have helped send far, far more adult males per capita to prison than any other country in the world. Similar tactics are beggining to be used against politically inconvenient people (welcome to the Western Block).

      That doesn't even cover what the United States ruling interests do to people in its non-domestic protectorates and war zones around the globe.

    12. Re:Europe beating USA in the big brother arms race by zehoo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Apparently the best way to protect our freedom is to spend a lot of money taking it away. ^^

    13. Re:Europe beating USA in the big brother arms race by Runagate+Rampant · · Score: 2, Informative

      I wonder how our friends in the US would react if Bush was forced out of office, some other Republican with significantly different views was appointed to replace him without a vote,

      If Bush quit office today, Cheney would take over as president, with out any further voting, for the remainder of the presidential term. So how is this different from Blair's deputy, Brown, taking over when public pressure forces Blair to resign?

    14. Re:Europe beating USA in the big brother arms race by LilGuy · · Score: 1

      Yes, this sounds very familiar over here in the US as well. Maybe not quite to the same extent, but I'm sure that's just down the pipeline.

      --

      You're nothing; like me.
    15. Re:Europe beating USA in the big brother arms race by CaptainZapp · · Score: 1

      For those not familiar with the terms of the former German Democratic Republic, the "Stasi" was the "Ministerium für Staatssicherheit" (department for interior security). Comparable with the Gestapo of earlier German times.

      Dude, the GDR Stasi was certainly not a bunch of nice, likeable dudettes and dudes and there's no doubt that they committed their share of crimes.

      Comparing them to the gestapo, however, who is directly responsible for the murder of 100000s - if not millions of people is more then a bit rich.

      --
      ich bin der musikant

      mit taschenrechner in der hand

      kraftwerk

    16. Re:Europe beating USA in the big brother arms race by approx · · Score: 1

      > where the Commission, Council and Parliament I do get a say in electing trump the national Parliament Fixed that for you.

      --
      There, behind you! A public health care system .. run for your life!
    17. Re:Europe beating USA in the big brother arms race by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      So how is this different from Blair's deputy, Brown, taking over when public pressure forces Blair to resign?

      In two rather fundamental ways, actually:

      1. Cheney was explicitly voted for by the electorate: he was on the ticket with Bush.
      2. Cheney's post is explicitly to be the deputy President; Gordon Brown had no such role. (Technically, the Deputy PM was John Prescott, and it was he who stood in for Tony Blair when TB was on holiday etc.)
      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    18. Re:Europe beating USA in the big brother arms race by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      You didn't fix anything at all. What you wrote simply isn't true — not least because only one of the European bodies you mentioned is elected at all. The others are appointed, by people whom I as a citizen am not guaranteed a say in choosing, using procedures over which I as a citizen have no control.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    19. Re:Europe beating USA in the big brother arms race by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      The Gestapo wasn't either, surprisingly. Don't confuse the Gestapo with other branches of the nazi terror regime like the SS or the concentration camp guards (mostly SS units, too).

      The Gestapo was certainly even less choosy in its means than the Stasi was when they tried to get information, but essentially they had the same job: Finding dissenters and stowing them somewhere where they can do no harm to the country, find people willing to cooperate as informants for "benefits" and infiltrating the own population to find people who dared questioning the local regime.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    20. Re:Europe beating USA in the big brother arms race by Runagate+Rampant · · Score: 1

      1. Gordon brown was also explicitly voted in as a member of parliament by his electorate.

      2. Deputy schmeputy, you are presuming that the Westminster system should follow rules of succession that don't exist. It is up to the dominant party or coalition to decide who is in government during any parliamentary term. And it has been common knowledge since before the last election that Brown would be likely taking over from Blair at some point.

    21. Re:Europe beating USA in the big brother arms race by Lars+T. · · Score: 1

      I remember during a visit to the former USSR, talking to a woman who spent 10 years in a Soviet labour camp. She was 16, working in a bakery that had sold out of bread. Another woman demanded a loaf of bread and she said "Go ask Stalin for your bread, 'cause he didn't send us any flour." That statement alone resulted in her imprisonment, torture and almost her death.

      Now if she could have said that and remained anonymous, then she would have been ok.

      In Stalinist Russia, the whole bakery would have been deported then.
      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

    22. Re:Europe beating USA in the big brother arms race by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, you must have been on another planet. The entire British media was full of stories about the controversy of Gordon Brown taking over as Prime Minister based only on the votes of Labour Party members and their political allies. Then it was full of stories about how undemocratic it was to have what they termed a "coronation", where Brown didn't even have to face any other candidates from within his own party.

      And remember, the Labour MPs who currently hold an absolute majority in Parliament — including Brown himself — were all elected based on an explicit promise that Tony Blair would serve a full third term as PM, which in turn was motivated by the huge amount of concern that by voting Labour people might be voting for Gordon Brown.

      There's just no way you can credibly argue that Brown taking over as PM was even close to democratic or representative of the will of the people. Our political system is pretty crooked at the best of times, but this is a new low. But now I've gone and fed a troll by reading Slashdot too late at night. Damn.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  2. nothing new... by User+956 · · Score: 4, Funny

    Germany is seeking authority to plant secret Trojan viruses into the computers of suspects that could scan files, photos, diagrams and voice recordings, record every keystroke typed

    We already have something like that in America. It's called Geek Squad.

    --
    The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
    1. Re:nothing new... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It is already legal in the US. The FBI and even local law enforcement agencies have been breaking into homes and planting hardware and software bugs on computers for some time now.

      It is also legal for law enforcement to place a software bug on our cell phones via our cell phone service provider that simply pushes it to our phones. This is the same functionality that allows (so called) hackers to break into cell phones and grab photos or harass people. It could easily be thwarted, but FOR SOME REASON they refuse to fix the "holes"...hmmm, I wonder why.

  3. Mandated use of Windows? by whoever57 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Next they will be mandating the use of Windows because their trojan does not work on Macs and Linux. I can just imagine getting a letter: "Dear Suspect, in order to secretly monitor your computer use, we require..."

    --
    The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    1. Re:Mandated use of Windows? by webmaster404 · · Score: 1

      Exactly what I was going to type, but I guess if it works on Linux theres always BSD, GNU Hurd and Plan 9

      --
      There is no "disagree" moderation, and troll, flamebait and overrated are not valid substitutes
    2. Re:Mandated use of Windows? by Anarchitektur · · Score: 1

      Clearly you are unfamiliar with the thought process of legislative bodies. Usage of "non-standard" operating systems is an automatic implication of guilt. They will forgo the espionage stage and jump straight to the search and seizure.

    3. Re:Mandated use of Windows? by Hotawa+Hawk-eye · · Score: 1

      So they're going to seize the NSA's computers? Perhaps they're going to seize the computers running whitehouse.gov? Or let's go the direct route and have the FBI seize some computers close to home.

    4. Re:Mandated use of Windows? by superbus1929 · · Score: 1

      That precedent has been set.

      --
      Let's stop dilly-dallying and just change "-1: Overrated" to "-1: Disagree" or "-1: Doesn't Subscribe to Groupthink".
  4. just have people sign a release by stoolpigeon · · Score: 4, Funny

    sign these papers!
    what do the papers say?
    they say that we have treated you well.
    i cannot sign the papers
    why not?
    you have broken all my fingers

    --
    It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
    1. Re:just have people sign a release by dnormant · · Score: 1

      Cheech and Chong, 1972 on the Big Baboo album. Good stuff

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bambu

    2. Re:just have people sign a release by stoolpigeon · · Score: 1

      Thanks! I had a friend who used to quote it all the time. This was years ago- and I never knew where it came from. That's totally cool.

      --
      It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
  5. Talk about spyware! by RyanFenton · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If this doesn't convince anyone who'd be considered 'suspicious' online in Germany to load up on spyware prevention-and-detection tools (assuming they're using Windows), I don't know what will.

    It'll be interesting to see if some future mandatory German tax software might have a list of 'incompatible software' that it will kindly uninstall for you in future tax seasons.

    Ryan Fenton

    1. Re:Talk about spyware! by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      I would actually start questioning spyware prevention-and-detection tools made or sold in Germany too. I mean would that make you implicit or something if your software helped disable the states software. Maybe implicit is the wrong word, aiding and abetting, conspiracy something sounds like it would belong?

    2. Re:Talk about spyware! by Jehosephat2k · · Score: 1

      http://www.lavasoft.de/ ring a bell?

  6. The Constitution by ArcherB · · Score: 3, Funny

    How dare these Germans! Don't they know that wiretapping is against the Constitution!??!

    --
    There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    1. Re:The Constitution by GnarlyDoug · · Score: 1

      You sound like a Positivist and think the law of the land defines what is moral. America was build on the philosophy of Natural Law and by that philosophy what the German government is doing is evil, no matter if it is made into law or even how many people want it. In other words it doesn't matter if the Constitution applies to the German people. What matters is that every human being has intrinsic rights and the German government is deciding to destroy those rights.

  7. Hackers of the World unite! by iknownuttin · · Score: 2, Interesting
    FTFA:Berlin-based hacker organization the Chaos Computer Club, which has pledged to find and publicize the first government Trojan.

    I hope hacker organizations around the World all do the same, and if possible, do it for folks who live in countries where such activity will get them killed. *ahem*Chine*ahem*

    --
    I prefer Flambe as apposed flamebait.
    1. Re:Hackers of the World unite! by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      1. It will not be a Trojan. I will be part of Windows Genuine Advantage!
      2. It will not be a Trojan. It is a feature.
      3. Hello Windows SP3 and Vista SP1. And you all wondered what was taking them so long.

      This is one of those "feel" good ideas that will only work for the dumbest of criminals. Might catch some kiddie porn collectors but I doubt that it will catch many serious terrorists. But then maybe they are all using Windows.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    2. Re:Hackers of the World unite! by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Honestly I think they're more interested in the kiddie porn collectors than terrorists.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    3. Re:Hackers of the World unite! by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Can't say that I would mind seeing a few kiddie porn collectors busted. I would really like to see the producers busted.
      BUT is just can't see this being a good idea. Too easy to avoid and too easy to abuse.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
  8. When will Europe learn? by ObiWanStevobi · · Score: 4, Insightful

    In America, the government just does things like this, hoping it stays a secret. If it is found out, you smear anyone who is upset as anti-American. If there are hearings on it, you get amnesia and claim executive priveledge. Eventaully, a congressman will have sex with something, or somewhere, he isn't supposed to, and everyone forgets.

    Really, it's a wonderful system we have here.

    1. Re:When will Europe learn? by geeknado · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I actually think the fact that this could potentially be done /without/ secrecy more worrisome. Keeping secrets generally implies an acknowledgement by the government that the populace will not be pleased if they discover the reality of the situation. In fact, this has actually been the case. There're wire tapping apologists, certainly, but there're reasons that the Shrub's approval rating is so low, and that program is one of them.

      My point is, concealing the facts generally implies that there is some fear of the popular reaction. A country in which the government /doesn't/ fear the backlash from such invasive techniques is a far scarier place to live, IMO.

    2. Re:When will Europe learn? by ObiWanStevobi · · Score: 1, Insightful

      A good point. At least here you have to say something like "It's for the children" or "The terrorists will win if we don't" before we pass a law that would allow this. Otherwise no one would think it was a good idea.

    3. Re:When will Europe learn? by NorQue · · Score: 5, Informative

      My point is, concealing the facts generally implies that there is some fear of the popular reaction.
      Remember the reaction on warrantless wiretapping in the USA? Well, me neither, as there was no noteworthy public reaction. At least here in Germany there are public protests against these laws. Latest one got 15000 attendants. And you see the picture of the politician behind the "Bundestrojaner", Wolfgang Schäuble, together with the signature "STASI 2.0" in a lot of places nowadays. http://erklaerung.vorratsdatenspeicherung.de/
    4. Re:When will Europe learn? by WeirdCat · · Score: 1

      Sad but true, it seems it makes no big difference today which country you choose... every single one has it's shortcomings in one way or the other. :-( ... let's build a completely new one... we could call it /. ;-)

    5. Re:When will Europe learn? by Non-Huffable+Kitten · · Score: 1

      Yay, let's develop a free/libre/open-source fusion reactor to support us on antarctica :) Come on, it doesn't sound that hard to make those funny blue and red balls bang into each other. A little hack here, a smart idea there and it will be almost done. As an added bonus, in winter there won't even be any sun to distract you from the monitor :o ... g'night (maybe staying at slashdot until the sleeping medication starts working isn't such a glorious idea ;))

      --
      Medium cat is MEDIUM.
    6. Re:When will Europe learn? by mrbluze · · Score: 1

      Remember the reaction on warrantless wiretapping in the USA? Well, me neither, as there was no noteworthy public reaction.

      Noteworthy is the key word. Who notes it? The mainstream media oligarchy writes the story and determines what counts as history. The vast majority of the public is probably unaware of much of what has been happening, or is too busy to do anything. The fat controllers almost have it in the bag; lawmakers, media, law enforcement. But, in the end, would the military turn against its own people?

      There is a groundswell of discontent rising and it will inevitably reach a breaking point. I suspect though that governments are more than ready for this and can deal with it swiftly.

      --
      Do it yourself, because no one else will do it yourself. [beta blockade 10-17 Feb]
    7. Re:When will Europe learn? by geeknado · · Score: 1
      Yes, totally agreed-- the public non-reaction to warrantless wiretapping was disheartening to say the least. I'm definitely not suggesting that USA > Germany in this ongoing madness, but was rather trying to point out to the OP that there are worse things than secrecy from your government

      Were I a German citizen, my concern would be whether or not the laws are passed in the face of the protests. As it is, I suspect that we're all in for troubling times ahead where many of our most basic principles are tested. As I said before, it is nice that our government still fears us in some ways...It is less nice that our public does not fear the degradation of their rights so much as terrorism.

      If the situation in Iraq were more stable, I have to wonder just how much we would tolerate in the name of security.

    8. Re:When will Europe learn? by demachina · · Score: 1

      "At least here in Germany there are public protests against these laws. Latest one got 15000 attendants."

      Not sure its a great idea for the 15,000 of you to all stand out in public so they can catalog you all and put you at the top of the list to get the next round of Trojans. You are kind of saying here we are, we are all the troublemakers...we need to be watched.

      --
      @de_machina
    9. Re:When will Europe learn? by mbyte · · Score: 1

      Don't worry, we already did learn, those are the ramblings of a madman (schäuble ..) and noone really takes him serious anymore. The only ones who are are sensatinalist reporters looking for the next scandal headline ...

  9. Please by jawtheshark · · Score: 1

    May I know how exactly they are going to get through my OpenBSD firewall and implant a trojan on my FreeBSD desktop? I'm a bit confused...

    --
    Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
    1. Re:Please by Ironsides · · Score: 1

      May I know how exactly they are going to get through my OpenBSD firewall and implant a trojan on my FreeBSD desktop? I'm a bit confused... What makes you think they haven't already?

      And, once you've answered that, Are you sure?
      --
      Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
    2. Re:Please by crowbarsarefornerdyg · · Score: 1

      Be glad you don't use a Mac.

      --
      "Slapping lipstick on a pig does NOT make it Natalie Portman. Paris Hilton, maybe, but not Portman." - UncleTogie
    3. Re:Please by jawtheshark · · Score: 1

      Okay, perhaps they can get through an OpenBSD/amd64 and a FreeBSD/amd64. There must be exploits. What about those that run OpenBSD/sparc4 and Linux/PPC? The point is: it is impossible to monitor all computers.

      So, sure, I don't know for 100% certain that my installs are clean. I did however order my OpenBSD CD's from www.openbsd.org, and my FreeBSD CD is downloaded from an American site. While not 100%, I'm fairly certain, my machine is not compromised. Now, just assuming my OpenBSD machine is clean (it has been installed from a bought CD, made in Canada), my tcpdump logs do not show any suspicious traffic.

      --
      Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
    4. Re:Please by Chosen+Reject · · Score: 3, Funny

      What about those that run OpenBSD/sparc4 and Linux/PPC?
      That's easy. Open source the trojan. If the problem is the platform, it's just a simple recompile. If the problem is the OS, then the community will port it for you.
      --
      Stop Global Warming!
      Just say no to irreversible processes!
    5. Re:Please by zeromorph · · Score: 2, Informative

      They will come through you house door, not your firewall and install it manually. (At least that's what the police says, the politicians maunder about attachments and the like.) But, whether it will be platform independent and thus run on your FreeBSD Desktop is an unanswered question.

      When you strip off all that crackhead talk of the politicians, the police wants a mean to bug your computer just like your phone. It is technically feasible and not crazy. But as far as I am concerned it's politically wrong.

      (btw there was a talk about this topic at the CCC's hacker camp this summer.)

      --
      "Hannibal's plans never work right. They just work." Amy/A-Team
    6. Re:Please by MightyMartian · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The point behind even publicly announcing such a plan is that it makes those who the German government plans on targeting fearful. Even if the ability of the German police or whoever is going to be responsible for this program can only hope to directly monitor a fraction of those that they would like, the strategy is to make Big Brother front and center in the eyes of the German people.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    7. Re:Please by jawtheshark · · Score: 1

      If that is true, what exactly stops me from installing a Windows machine as "bait" for them. They ring at my door: "Ihrem Rechner Bitte". I lead them to the P-IV 1.9GHz/512Meg RAM machine I got from a dumpster (no joke, I did) and let them install whatever they want on it.

      After they leave I take out the machine I stored in my closet (or at my parents, or in the garage, or in my car), connect it and reformat the dumpster machine.

      Whether it's politcally wrong (I agree), it is impossible. As a computer scientist, heck as a hobbyist hacker, they can try whatever they want. They cannot "own" our machines. Not as long as they physically install a bug on the ADSL line, and even then.... I know where to cut the line to get a signal.

      Unless it's at the ISP, but then they shouldn't be talking about installing tracking devices/software on the users machines.

      --
      Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
    8. Re:Please by jawtheshark · · Score: 1

      So, it's just a way to look "good" in public? I can swallow that. However, for the technically apt, they become a laughing stock.

      --
      Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
    9. Re:Please by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Not really.

      It will cause who they are looking for to double check things. Possibly not trust computers. Possible not trust Internet communications. You know, I know I am clean, but what about the site I just posted on? What about "Ohkmed the octopus" who I just IM-ed. How can you be sure they are clean and the government isn't watching my communications through them.

      So besides raising the inteligence bar necessary for people willing to kill themselves for some promise of 72 virgins (that will always remain a virgin, that's the hell of it) or whatever the reason/cause it now, it might make communications harder or make them change their operating procedures and all.

      Here is something to ask yourself. They control the connection to your machine in one way or another. It may be privately owned and all but they can sniff the lines and manipulate them without your knowledge and all. Now, you have BSD or Linux and do updates so they arrange for a server to intercept you updating session and implant a patched something or another that can do the bugging. So maybe you don't update to avoid this, then there is bound to be an exploit at some point that they can get in on. And most of all, they don't need to get you and your computer, they can get the same information they want from the computers and people your computer is talking to.

    10. Re:Please by zeromorph · · Score: 1

      They might just install a rootkit like software on your PC when you are away. Like they would do with your phone since forty years. They are not very transparent about the technical side and the idiotic bosh of tech-illiterate politicians blurs the whole thing even more.

      What is known is this:
      -They want to install some kind of software on your computer.
      -This can be done remotely or manually. (And there are statements that they want to install it manually.)
      -They then want to retrieve information from your computer.
      -For this they need at least access to your hard disk and your internet communication
      -To use the information they must get it from your computer to one of their computers.
      -And thus some channel to get the information out of your PC.

      Figure out yourself what technical solutions my do the job.

      Their main line of argumentation is: we used to bug their phone, now they use the internet thus we now need to somehow bug their computer. This is not allowed yet, so we must change the law and then develop a solution that will do the job.

      --
      "Hannibal's plans never work right. They just work." Amy/A-Team
    11. Re:Please by jawtheshark · · Score: 1

      Installing a rootkit requires a technical competence. I don't expect them to have this. As said, the only one they could do is a bug on the line. Installing anything on a computer isn't going to get them anywhere. They have to understand that first: a phone is not a computer.

      I personally don't see a way to do what they want to do unless it's platform dependent, or if they have covered all platforms. Which is impossible, since computers are programmable devices. With enough dedication, and programmer can write his own TCP/IP stack for his own architecture and/or own operating system.

      --
      Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
    12. Re:Please by jawtheshark · · Score: 1
      That's what I don't understand. Anyone who know the Internet, already knows that the channel is not secure. The fact that I post here, readable for all, already illustrates the security of the Internet. Nobody on the Internet can be trusted. It's that simple. In the end it's all smoke and mirrors. A threath, that is not a threat because you know that Aunt Tully will be monitored.

      The man in the middle attack could be avoided by using certificates and/or a ring of trust. Besides, a real parnoid person will disable all services. The exploit that could come along is something they can hope for, but then I'd have to point my browser/email/chat to a compromised site. The odds really aren't on their side...

      --
      Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
    13. Re:Please by Ironsides · · Score: 1

      I doubt you'd be able to disable all services without going through a roundabout way of posting to the internet. Last I heard, browsers had exploits. Hell, even drivers, such as your ethernet card, could have drivers. Remember the old Ping of Death?

      --
      Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
    14. Re:Please by jawtheshark · · Score: 1

      I know all that... I know browsers have exploits, I know of the denial of service attack that is the "Ping Of Death". Yet... You forget one thing: the effort to get me. The effort to get those like me who know how to protect themselves as much as they can, is quite big. Sure, you they'll get me, but what about the guy 100x smarter than me and the guy 100x smarter than that guy?

      Total control is not possible... You know that, I know that.

      I personally think that they'll target Windows users, Mac users at best.... The others are the negligible amount that can't be monitored. With the right amount of money, I'll show Bin Laden & co how to use encryption and non-common operating systems. Every man has his price, I have mine...

      --
      Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
    15. Re:Please by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      It is all about creating paranoia in the user or organization who might be doing something wrong. They will either spend all their time covering their tracks or take so many steps that it is harder to use the efficiency of the computer in their deeds and end up reverting to a more traditional method of communications. The man in the middle attacks can be made on clear ends of the encryption or whatever too. (the VPN connection's encryption does no good if someone set a black box behind the VPN router or one of the client computers are compromised) Of course on the other end of the spectrum, they might get cocky and think nothing could happen while having the cops monitoring them all along.

      You see, there might be a guy as smart as you and someone 100x smarter, and yet someone else who is 100x smarter then him. But to organize to the level necessary to pull off an organized attack, they will likely need people who are 100x dumber then you and if someone is willing to die in the act, probably 100x dumber then the already "dumber" person. I know we've seen educated people planting bombs and stuff but we haven't seen headlines claiming "Nobel Scientist blows himself up in a suicide bombing- takes out 8 with him in hotel lobby".

      Here is a dreaded car analogy. I know they suck but this might be really close to the point. I used to have to travel 35 miles and across a major metropolitan area to get to work in the morning. It was messed up because if I didn't run into traffic problems, I could make the trip in about 40 minutes. If I ran into traffic, it could take 1.5-2 hours. I had to ballance either showing up on time with showing up early. A lot of the times, leaving 10 minutes earlier (counting in a 1.5 hour drive) meant waiting for 40-50 minutes for someone to unlock the doors and open up. But leaving 10 minutes later (same 1.5 hour drive) could mean showing up 30 minutes late.

      So I was forced to leave early and wait in the parking lot and essentially waist time in order to ensure I was on time. This was because of the possibility of being late that I had to take extra steps to ensure I wasn't. Similarly, the person who thinks they might be a target of the government would have to take extra steps to ensure their system isn't compromised as well as those who they communicate with over the Internet. It is likely that they will either waist resources or do what I eventually did and find another way to make a dollar by getting to another job. But in their case, it might be another way to communicate, store or organize their computerized information that they have to find just to make sure. It either ads layers of complexity to the situation, forces them to change their system, or run the risk that they could be a little wrong and are actually infected.

    16. Re:Please by Aethedor · · Score: 1

      Via ports of course....

      --
      It doesn't have to be like this. All we need to do is make sure we keep talking.
    17. Re:Please by TeraCo · · Score: 1
      May I know how exactly they are going to get through my OpenBSD firewall and implant a trojan on my FreeBSD desktop? I'm a bit confused...

      They broke into your house and installed it while you were out shopping? And if for whatever reason the relevant investigative organ is unable to compile a trojan for your specific OS, they'll just install a hardware keylogger or just make an image of your hard disk.

      --
      Not Meta-modding due to apathy.
    18. Re:Please by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      When you get bugs installed by the police for surveillance they don't knock on your door and ask you to cooperate, they enter your home in your absense and install what they need to.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    19. Re:Please by Bee1zebub · · Score: 1

      A simpler trick would be, on a Linux box, to log in a root and kill -9 the process, and remove the entry in the login script which runs it. A better trick would be to replace the spyware with a program which pretends to be it, but is uploading harmless information, whenever you order it to.

  10. Achtung! by fehlschlag · · Score: 1

    Nicht touchen das Blinkenlights! Das Harddisk sind belong zu UNS!

  11. Mmmhm by rrohbeck · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Imagine a back door, vulnerability or leaked/cracked private key in one of those.

    Given governments' competence in such matters that's just a matter of time.

    --
    thegodmovie.com - watch it
  12. Schizophrenic Germany by LM741N · · Score: 1

    Isn't this the country which is going to utilize the Open Document Format? Now they are proposing to spy on computers. What if I issue the command "make buildworld". Are they goin to reinfect my BSD system? Are they even going to try to compromise Linux and BSD? What about live filesystems like Knoppix. How the hell are they going to infect your CD?

    1. Re:Schizophrenic Germany by everphilski · · Score: 1

      with a SHARPIE!

    2. Re:Schizophrenic Germany by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      This whole idea is mainly pushed by the interior minister Wolfgang Schäuble, who probably has about as much clue about computers as your Ted "series-of-tubes" Stevens.
      Linux? Never heard of it.
      Don't expect that those proposals even remotely make sense. If somebody where to tell them it won't work, they would answer "then make it work".

      Besides, that guy is really paranoid, perhaps because he was shot years ago. He's definitely on the "or the terrorists win" train.

  13. Windows only? by nurb432 · · Score: 1

    So will they come up with an 'approved' list of software ( and hardware ) that you are allowed to possess. Anything else would make you a terrorist.

    Better hide those Ataris and Amigas !

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    1. Re:Windows only? by corsec67 · · Score: 1

      What about small embedded computers?
      My WRT-54GL runs a variant of Linux (Tomato Firmware, to be exact), and definitely couldn't run Windows. Or are they going to provide hacked versions of all of the ROMs for routers and other small computers?

      Some Routers can use external hard drives, so they could hold potential "terrorist" stuff.

      --
      If I have nothing to hide, don't search me
    2. Re:Windows only? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Then I'm a terrorist.

      Before I bend to the will of a clinically paranoid nutcase like Schäuble, I'd rather go to jail. I'd rather break the laws of a country than those of my conscience.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:Windows only? by nurb432 · · Score: 1

      200 years ago you might be able to do that ( here in the US anyway, in other countries the timing would be different ) and be called a patriot. Today, the government will just detain you and get you out of circulation before you cause any 'damage'.

      That said, I agree, following ones conscience is important, but so is picking the right battles.

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    4. Re:Windows only? by Rick17JJ · · Score: 1

      I do not have anything to hide, but the article got me wondering about my home computer setup. Only one of my computers is connected to the Internet. I have three computers all going through a KVM switch connected to just one keyboard, monitor and mouse. One of the computers uses Linux and is the only one that is used for email and browsing the Internet. They could try to install a keystroke logger and spyware on that computer, if they have a Linux version of their trojan. Perhaps they have some kind of unpublished zero-day Linux exploit that they could use to hack into a computer which has no ports open to the outside world.

      Also attached to the same KVM switch, is a Windows XP computer with gets connected to the Internet briefly only about once a month for security updates and is not used for email or Internet browsing. The third computer attached to the KVM switch is a small semi-obsolete Linux box which has not been connected to the Internet for several years.

      I use a manual ethernet switch box to keep the Windows XP computer disconnected from the Internet most of the time. I do not have a microphone or camera hooked to any of the three computers.

      Hypothetically speaking, if I were someone who wanted to come up with secret plans, records, maps or documents, I would not do it on the newer Linux computer which is connected to the Internet. I would probably do it on the older non-networked semi-obsolete Linux box.

      The government would probably still think of something. Perhaps some government agent would break in to install a hardware type bug with its own little antenna in the keyboard. In the future, they might be able to send a remote controlled robotic insect flying through an open window and have it crawl directly into the keyboard or a computer. Alternatively, from a nearby location they might just try to monitor the electromagetic signals radiating from the monitor. That is probably easier with a CRT monitor than an LCD monitor, although I once read on Slashdot, that the metal fittings on some LCD monitors can radiate enough of a signal. It would probably be difficult to eavesdrop on an un-networked computer in a basement fallout shelter with thick masonry walls and heavy radiation absorbing roof which would probably greatly dampen the signal (in my non-expert opinion).

      Perhaps most criminals and terrorists have never heard of spyware and keystroke loggers and are such doofuses that such measures are rarely necessary.

      Will such hardware and software eventually be banned, due to insufficient provisions for government accessible back doors? Even without the help of spyware and keystroke loggers, they could still keep an eye on our interests and political views by just monitoring which what websites we typically look at.

  14. Legal to Protect Against by moore.dustin · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Is it going to be legal to protect yourself from these? Assuming they are found, dissected, and something is available to block or corrupt their program, would it not be classified as malware and thus, completely legal to protect against.

    As for the reliability of the information gathered: Is information gathered in this way admissible? It would seem that there are to many potential snags with this that it would never be able to be relied upon by itself.

    --
    Invexi - a Phoenix, AZ based web design and web development company.
    1. Re:Legal to Protect Against by Gregb05 · · Score: 1

      I assume so, given that most users wouldn't be able to discern a Government Trojan from any other Trojan.

      Unless the gov't does something that breaks the 'secret' nature of the virus (Here, take this spyware!), but at that point it's easier just to confiscate the damn computer.

      --
      --
    2. Re:Legal to Protect Against by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Hey, why should the government be above the law if I may not? They resort to illegal means to infect my computer with trojans, I have no problem resorting to illegal means to get rid of them again.

      I for one am working in AV, and should something like that end up on my desk (as a "do not include" file), a remover will be available no later than the next day.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:Legal to Protect Against by arminw · · Score: 1

      .....Hey, why should the government be above the law if I may not?.....
      The government MAKES the law. You have to obey. Governments are allowed to do lots of things the people are forbidden to do. Printing money and making of atomic bombs are only two such things.

      --
      All theory is gray
    4. Re:Legal to Protect Against by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      And since ours isn't allowed to build atomic bombs they have to prove they have the bigger dick by stupid crap like that? Don't think Germany isn't the only country blessed with an overly paranoid government.

      By the way, you have the right to print money here. It just must not be in the likeness of the governments money, but nobody keeps you from printing bills and telling people you accept them as legal tender.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    5. Re:Legal to Protect Against by Bee1zebub · · Score: 1

      This applies in most countries: hell, its how banknotes came about. All you would be doing is pre-printing cheques.

    6. Re:Legal to Protect Against by jimicus · · Score: 1

      As for the reliability of the information gathered: Is information gathered in this way admissible? It would seem that there are to many potential snags with this that it would never be able to be relied upon by itself.

      Does it need to be? I know nothing of German law, but in many western countries this would be the first step of intelligence gathering prior to mounting a raid, not the be all and end all.

  15. Sounds familiar... by jdtch · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Wow, sounds like the Geheime Staatspolizei are making their comeback.

    1. Re:Sounds familiar... by jdtch · · Score: 1

      P.S. Hello, Mr. Godwin.

    2. Re:Sounds familiar... by NorQue · · Score: 2, Insightful

      More like the East-German STASI. And a lot of people here see it like that.

    3. Re:Sounds familiar... by bckrispi · · Score: 2, Funny

      I don't think Goodwin's law is applicable here. We have the German government acting like ... well... Nazis.

      --
      Xenon, where's my money? -Borno
  16. No, not 'dear suspect' by nurb432 · · Score: 1

    It will be more like 'come with us'.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  17. I'd rather get attacked.... by EntropyXP · · Score: 2, Insightful

    than give up my rights.

    --
    "No one will really be free until nerd persecution ends."
  18. Oh, *Germany*! by autophile · · Score: 1, Interesting

    The LA Times reports on a proposal to secretly scan suspects' hard drives which is causing unease in a nation with a history of official surveillance.

    At first I thought they were talking about the US. Then the next sentence says it's Germany. Then I thought they meant the US but wrote Germany by mistake.

    --Rob

    --
    Towards the Singularity.
  19. Bandwith? by facon12 · · Score: 1

    Im not completely familiar with how this could be done so forgive me if im being ignorant. But if this is a virus that scans peoples hard drives and sends back info, if it only sends file names that it is easily defeated by using nondescript file names. If it actually sends back the files themselves then its going to take a huge amount of bandwidth eating up the citizens network and most likely alerting the would be terrorist anyways. It seems like this would be awfully tough to implement, but this is more of a really. I just want to know how this could really work.

    1. Re:Bandwith? by Erikderzweite · · Score: 1

      They might take the index from Windows/Google Desktop search and send only the information they want to see.

      But that's not the main question. More interesting is, how exactly the will implement the whole thing. there are three variants:

      - "classic" trojan provided by the same methods as today's criminals do. Threat - minimal provided you're not stupid.

      - by-default-enabled backdoor in operating system. Threat - critical! If the government is able to install and run software through this backdoor, criminals will find out how to use it too.

      - "physical" installation: the operatives come to your place (with a search warrant of course) and install the spying software manually. Threat - medium. In fact it is not much different from bugging your phone. The downside is that technically-skilled criminals will find soon enough if they're bugged.

  20. Re:Linux by rubies · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Running Linux will simply make you a greater suspect - in the current environment, you obviously must have something to hide.

  21. Strictly for idiots by bombastinator · · Score: 1

    I don't think creating a hack to block stuff like this will have any more effect than the actual software itself. I think any trojan will still be semi-effective, just not against anyone who is actually dangerous.

    This kind of thing just isn't that hard to avoid. Trojans do work, but generally only against people who are sloppy, or do not have the skills or interest to correctly handle their computer. I have wiped viruses repeatedly off my 70 year old step mother's computer for instance. She repetitively turns off her antivirus software because she thinks the startup logo is ugly. Some people just can't be saved.

    There will be people caught who do things, but they will get the crazies who paint stuff on walls, not the nuclear armed agents they are professing to be on the lookout for.

    1. Re:Strictly for idiots by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      They might get some of them. I'm willing to be that if they so, we would be the last to know about it. They will sit on anything until the very last minute on anyone seeming to payoff in this regard in order to collect as much information as possible and not tip higher up terrorist off that their plans may be in jeopardy.

      I would even think they might let a couple people die before busting them in order to save more people if possible. I know I would, kind of like shooting a hijacked airliner down over a field instead of letting it crash into a grade school building or college football game.

  22. Since you weren't there, I'll fill you in: by geekoid · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It failed.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    1. Re:Since you weren't there, I'll fill you in: by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 1

      So did communism.

  23. Mission Creep is the Worry by MrSteveSD · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Whenever governments want some new power, the major threat is nearly always "Mission Creep". They start off by saying that the new measures will only apply to terror suspects (or whatever) and things will have to be approved etc. A year or so down the line though, once people are used to it, they extend things a little. Then a while later, they do it again. Before you know it, you can end up with a real big brother situation.

    An example of this is the criminal genetic database in the UK. Initially it was only for convicted criminals, but there has been mission creep for years and they now keep huge amounts of genetic data, even from people who are completely innocent.

    1. Re:Mission Creep is the Worry by McSnarf · · Score: 1
      Ha ! That's nothing...

      Germany also wants to implement the EU mandantory logging of IP connection data. To fight terrorists, of course. Now we learn that the music industry will most likely get access to the data for the terrorist crime of copyright violations aka file sharing.

  24. Advantage of less advanced countries by Tibixe · · Score: 1

    I doubt that there is anyone who works for the government AND can write a proper virus/trojan in Hungary :) Definitely not one for Linux :p

    1. Re:Advantage of less advanced countries by Handbrewer · · Score: 1

      Ironically, Hungary is known for some very good virus writers.

      http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/06/30/hungarian_vxer_escapes_jail/
      http://www.f-secure.com/weblog/archives/archive-062004.html

      Etc. And more from the early 90es and 80es. And as far as i remember, some of the early Polymorphic virus engines etc.

      I think every country with teenagers+computers got some of these kids who dream in assembly code. And some of them might be eager to earn some easy money.

  25. Re:Airport experience by Kamineko · · Score: 1

    "Don't believe me? Here, I'll put you on: 'Hellooo!' THAT'S YOU! THAT'S HOW DUMB YOU SOUND!"

  26. Who came to power ... by foobsr · · Score: 1

    the following might shade a light ...

    "What is striking is that whereas collaborators of the old regime have made careers in high politics in the new Germany almost all the dissident figures of the DDR, even ones like Rainer Eppelmann, who joined the CDU, have faded from the scene, leaving only Markus Meckel, last DDR foreign minister (SPD) and Arnold Vaatz, an old dissident (CDU) as the only critics of the DDR-regime with a chance of winning seats on 18th September.[12] Dr. Merkel represents the politically upwardly mobile, post-1989 class of ex-DDR citizens, who either served the old regime in one of the Bloc parties or were silent and obedient to all outward appearances." ( c.f., emphasis mine)

    Thus, one might think that there still is a lot of 'Stasi-thinking' around, which for sure has fruitfully merged with the remnants of 'Gestapo-mind-set'.

    CC. (born & living in Germany, at least physically)

    --
    TaijiQuan (Huang, 5 loosenings)
  27. Fearmongering, anyone? by gillbates · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A terrorist attack with nuclear weapons is certain. The question is no longer whether such an attack could be carried out by terrorists, but when," Schaeuble told the Frankfurter Allgemeine newspaper in September.[emphasis added]

    If the attack is so certain, why haven't we arrested the terrorist(s)? Which is more likely:

    • The terrorists have already acquired nuclear weapons, know how to detonate them, and are simply biding their time (Osama on vacation?!), or
    • There hasn't been a terrorist nuclear attack because the terrorists haven't been able to acquire a nuclear weapon, don't know how to detonate it, or they're all interned in Guantanamo or elsewhere.

    Fearmongering for personal political gain only detracts from the real issues surrounding terrorism. You know, things like:

    1. The most successful terrorism investigations have involved regular, old-fashioned police work.
    2. The 9/11 terrorists all had valid ID's.
    3. The violations of human rights and common dignity brought about in the name of combating terrorism.
    4. The inability of torture to actually produce usable intelligence, not to mention the moral and ethical dilemnas surrounding it.
    5. The difficulty of stemming the tide of new terrorist recruits when combating terrorism with military tactics.
    6. The moral dilemna of shifting the fight over terrorism to third world countries with no prior history of supporting terrorism.
    7. The Constitutional dilemna of summarily denying rights to an entire class of people by allowing the Justice Department to arbitrarily reclassify their status from "enemy combatant" to "unlawful combatant".
    8. The military dilemna of the United States violation of the Geneva convention in the prosecution of the "War on Terror".
    9. The political dilemna of power seizure by the executive branch made possible by informal declarations of war on concepts and ideas, rather than actual enemies.

    Instead of responding to goons like this, we should instead focus on the fact that other law enforcement officials have been able to conduct successful terrorism investigations without resorting to devices such as these.

    --
    The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
    1. Re:Fearmongering, anyone? by KevinIsOwn · · Score: 1

      I am American and am currently working in Germany, so my understanding of their politics isn't that great. But with that said, pretty much everyone here thinks that Schäuble is an absolute idiot. I have not met a single person who supports his policies. He is made fun of in numerous websites, on tv, and by most of the people here. The outcry against his fearmongering tactics has been sizeable and a number of politicians are opposing him.

      Now, contrast this with America where Bush and the Republicans used the exact same fear mongering tactics and got their way. With the exception of Russ Feingold, pretty much every politician went for it hook, line and sinker. I'm happy to say that, so far, that hasn't happened here.

  28. government rights versus freedom by gone.fishing · · Score: 1

    A government reserves certain rights for itself. They can do things that others can't. For instance, the state can take a life in circumstances that if it were performed by a citizen would be murder. The police can use methods that would be unlawful if a private citizen did them. Even the city water department can assert authority that a non-government authority would never be able to.

    For the most part we citizens are aware of the rules that we live under. This is no different in Iran than it is in the United States or Cuba. The problem comes when the power is abused. Will Germany just automatically allow this invasion of privacy or, will they require some sort of probable cause and warrant? Will this process be subject to scrutiny or will it be done under a veil of secrecy?

    Isn't it kind of hard to really understand just how invasive this is before you know how you feel about it?

    Lets change the scenereo a little bit. Should the state be permitted to spy on someone's computer who they have some evidence is involved in child pornography? Lets say they suspect that they felt that they could uncover an entire ring of pedeophiles if they spied on the suspect's computer; would it be okay then? I think many people would say "I have no problem with that."

    It boils down to what protections are in place to prevent abuse. At a minimum, I would expect that investigators would be required to present evidence that meets some mininium standards to justify a warrant before they did this.

    We have learned that almost any system is fallable and that someone who is determined to get around the rules will do it but they do not need laws to do this. I'd rather see a system that has rules than none at all. Hopefully a system that has review and oversight so that it is non easy to abuse.

    1. Re: government rights versus freedom by sc0ob5 · · Score: 1

      Lets change the scenereo a little bit. Should the state be permitted to spy on someone's computer who they have some evidence is involved in child pornography? Lets say they suspect that they felt that they could uncover an entire ring of pedeophiles if they spied on the suspect's computer; would it be okay then? I think many people would say "I have no problem with that."

      It's all well and good to change the scenario but at least make it something like the original. Sure pedophiles are evil and I don't think you would find many people that would disagree with your scenario but this isn't child pornography this is terrorism, and the list of "terrorists" is growing by 548 people a day or 200,000 people a year. I wouldn't have a problem if all these people were terrorists but the fact is that they are not, they are innocent people.

  29. FUD article by uigrad_2000 · · Score: 1
    The headline makes it sound as if the German government is going to mandate all users turn over their hard drives, or that the government is going to force all citizens to install trojans. It makes a good headline, but the story is much less interesting:

    "Now, along with several other European countries, Germany is seeking authority to plant secret Trojan viruses into the computers of suspects..."
    Don't they already have this authority? Is there anyone in the world who doesn't have this "authority"?

    When it comes to security, you have to expect that it's war outside your firewall, and all varieties of people are going to be trying to get in. No one is responsible for your security mistakes except for you. I hate the government, but if they manage to root my system, I'll tip my hat to them. If they manage to root the system of a terrorist, I'll bow in deep respect.

    Someone needs to attempt to hack the computers of known terrorists. I know that vigilante justice is trying. I don't know why we would restrict the government from trying too.

    --
    Free unix account: freeshell.org
    1. Re:FUD article by Ginsu2000 · · Score: 1

      You can bet that it is already happening everywhere else. The Germans are opposed to this type of activity because they know just how invasive and soul destroying it can be. There is a film set pre unification called "The Lives of Others" which sheds light on the old Stasi. Is this what everyone really wants? Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

  30. Re:fp by stoolpigeon · · Score: 2, Funny

    Fred Palnicki. Famous slashdotter, died in the middle of an epic raid with his wow guild. His guildmates try to honor him here, whenever they get the chance.

    --
    It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
  31. An all together different Schindler's list :) by Bender+Unit+22 · · Score: 1

    "What this case showed us is that they are using laptops, they are using computers, and it would have been very, very helpful to track them down with online searches," said Gerhard Schindler, director of the German Interior Ministry's counter-terrorism bureau.

    1. Re:An all together different Schindler's list :) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      They were using shoes, they were wearing hats, it would have been very, very helpful to track them down by legally bugging every shoe and hat in the country.

  32. Whoever gets there first loses by Scrameustache · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You hear a lot of stories on sites these days about the USA turning into a police state, but I think the UK (all those CCTVs) and I guess now Germany are really kicking our butts in that department lately. Ya know, it's not supposed to be a race!
    --

    You can't take the sky from me...

  33. Re:I hear facism worked for them before by Cairnarvon · · Score: 1

    Nazism != fascism.
    The word you're looking for is totalitarianism.

  34. You might be over-reacting by Cajun+Hell · · Score: 1
    Wait a sec... From the article:

    Now, along with several other European countries, Germany is seeking authority to plant secret Trojan viruses into the computers of suspects that could scan files, photos, diagrams and voice recordings, record every keystroke typed and possibly even turn on webcams and microphones in an attempt to gain knowledge of attacks before they happen.

    With a warrant, I bet cops can legally do that in USA too. Probably just about any country.

    If there's due process, it isn't unusual for courts to grant LE special surveillance privs against a specific suspect.

    Note the qualifiers: due process, warrants. The article doesn't say this new authority is an end-run around the usual barriers. (Doesn't say it's not, either.)

    --
    "Believe me!" -- Donald Trump
  35. Re:I hear facism worked for them before by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    The only thing that comforts me about it is that eventually it failed. Although I don't know if I'd want to sit through that kind of crap for 12 years.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  36. Ummm....the FBI have been doing this since 1999 by Joce640k · · Score: 2, Informative

    Europe is at least eight years behind the USA on this one. The FBI been installing spyware in people's machines since at least 1999 and a judge ruled it was Ok to do so in 2001.

    See: http://www.wired.com/politics/security/news/2002/01/49455

    (Or google for something like "scarfo keylogger")

    --
    No sig today...
  37. In the USA a judge ruled it admissible in 2001 by Joce640k · · Score: 1

    "Is information gathered in this way admissible?"

    In the USA it is: http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2001/12/27/fbi-snooping.htm

    --
    No sig today...
  38. Governments have no "rights" by Joce640k · · Score: 1

    Governments have "powers" which are granted by the people.

    Any government which claims to have "rights" is a dictatorship.

    --
    No sig today...
  39. This is just bullshit.... by mjander · · Score: 1

    Hi there, This topic was announced a lot of time ago, and at least in Germany, nobody cares about. This topic is over. There was just one crazy politician (Schäuble), that thought doing this USA kind of thing would be great, but I think that he just killed his politician career. An even if the BND (like the CIA in the USA, but they arent evil :) ) is already watching me, I really don't care. Because no Police men has nocked on my door so far :) As somebody of the CCC (Chaos Computer Club) told to the Spiegel some time ago, this is not even Pratical. If they really want to tap a PC of someone effectively, they will fail at least at the cost of such a operation. It is just nonsense. Best Regards, mjander

  40. simple solution by m2943 · · Score: 1

    If you're concerned about security, just boot one of the Linux live CD distributions instead of booting from hard disk.

  41. Linux (oblig) by Zoxed · · Score: 1

    But I run Linux, you insensitive clod.

  42. German gov doesnt have a clue by mrjb · · Score: 1

    Obviously (some people in) the German government doesn't have a clue about governing a democratic country. I get so pissed off over these things. COME ON, it is not that hard. To represent the people, all they have to do is turn around the question- Would they want their personal computers to be scanned by other people without their knowledge and approval?

    Perhaps all governmental roles - not just presidents - should have a limited term. That way, people in the government would be forced to think about the long-term consequences of their plans, i.e. what happens with their great ideas *after* they return to the society of the common people. If plans will directly backfire on them, they'll have to think twice instead of half before coming up with foolish ideas.

    --
    Visit http://ringbreak.dnd.utwente.nl/~mrjb/growingbettersoftware to download your free copy of the book
  43. Austria by Kaeluka · · Score: 2, Informative

    They are planning the same thing in Austria. What is happening to us?

  44. This is so ridiculous. by Federico_A_B · · Score: 1

    "... Germany is seeking authority to plant secret Trojan viruses into the computers of suspects that could scan files, photos, diagrams and voice recordings, record every keystroke typed and possibly even turn on webcams and microphones... "

    This is so ridiculous. I want to see how are they going to plant a Trojan virus on my Linux system. I mean, what are they going to do? Do they thing they can plant Trojans in the official Debian or Ubuntu repos?

    If this law is approved I'm going to do exactly the same thing these people are doing: Use the peoples fear in order to get them to approve things they wont otherwise. So I'm going to start telling everyone that the only way to conserve privacy is to use exclusively 100% free software. I mean you don't know if that fglrx driver contains a government Trojan.

    As gillbates said: "The most successful terrorism investigations have involved regular, old-fashioned police work". The las time there was this story about three guy who wanted to fabricate explosives for a "major attack". and the police had been watching them for quite a long time, they actually changed the barrels content for some harmless substance. But the media and Schäuble made a big deal out of it.

      For these kind of amateurs you really don't need Trojans because you'll get them with other methods, and you will just end up spying a lot innocent people. And if we are talking about talented terrorist, I don't think they will fall in such a cheap trick like a Trojan.

    I fear these kind of laws will never help to prevent a REAL threat, but in two or three year we will be seeing how they start using these mechanisms in order to prevent you from downloading a song or a movie.

  45. Re:Linux by Dr.+Hok · · Score: 1

    Running Linux will simply make you a greater suspect - in the current environment, you obviously must have something to hide.
    This has already happened. I mean, not literally Linux, but possessing software that can be useful to computer criminals is already illegal in Germany (since October). Like, e.g. Wireshark (http://wireshark.org/). So if you're a network admin and examine your network using suspicious tools, you're halfway in prison.
    --
    Say out loud: I'm an Aspie and I'm somewhat proud, I guess. Uh. Can I write an email in all caps instead? Hm...
  46. Slow news this month... by KnuthKonrad · · Score: 1

    Somebody should have tagged this "Slow news this month". This is the same topic that was mentioned in http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/09/01/1945235.

    That said, I'm nonetheless happy that mainstream media seems to slowly pick up this story.

  47. state-sponsored linux distro by motorcrash · · Score: 1

    "Dear Suspect, in order to secretly monitor your computer use, we require..."

    ...that you install zee OS on the enclosed CD. Our new, completely free linux distribution, Nazix.

    This post inspired by an entry on the old Dave Letterman Top 10 list "Top 10 Names for the Newly Reunified Germany"... Nazichusetts.
  48. hitlar by Techx9 · · Score: 1

    man, if they done this to hitlars computer we could have avoided the korean war all together!!! :P

  49. Spyware by ComputerGeek01 · · Score: 1

    Does this seem a little Backassward to anyone else? In order to effectively monitor the computer content the government would have to count on third party companies not removing their spy ware, I understand Germany's reputation for quality and efficiency but it would still be a government agency and in ANY situation with a free market economy government development can't touch private sector talent. In disclosing the name/location/any identifiable data about the program they are leaving vulnerable to both the people who would remove it and the people who would exploit it. This seems like one of those black hole projects that bankrupt government projects. You could make the removal of this software illegal but the penalty would have to be something on par with the crimes they are trying to fight.