Microsoft Wants 360 To Have PS2-Like Lifespan

Gamasutra is reporting on comments from Microsoft executive Mindy Mount, reacting to Nintendo's Satoru Iwata and his observations about the modern console life cycle. Mount indicated that the company is looking towards the PlayStation 2's success well into its lifespan for inspiration. "In comments very similar to those made by Iwata, Mount suggested that a rush to create a new generation of consoles was not necessary until there was a compelling hardware feature to justify it. 'At this point from the technological perspective, there are some real advances ... that make it worth having a next-generation console," said Mount. "Right now there aren't that many things on the horizon that you think, wow, that's going to be a game-changer.'"

Comments

I wont' be the first one to say it but..

[C. Alan]

Microsoft *realy* need to get the quality control situation figured out before they can hope the 360 will have the console life of the PS2. Lets face it, when your two or three year old console breaks, chances are you won't buy another one.

Re:I wont' be the first one to say it but..

[geminidomino]

No, but you may file a class-action lawsuit and the company will replace the drive for free, even beyond warranty (That happened with the PS2).

Re:I wont' be the first one to say it but..

[Aladrin]

What if you don't have to, because it's still under warranty? That's all that has saved their ass so far...

I will say, though, that I buy/rent games on my PS3 rather than my 360 if given the choice now because my 360 is acting weird sometimes (graphical corruption that goes away when it's turned off and back on) and I don't want to have to wait 6 weeks until I can play it again. It's easier to just get them for the PS3 and not have to worry about it.

Maybe if I can make my 360 last long enough, they'll replace it with one that won't break when it finally does go down.

Re:I wont' be the first one to say it but..

[king-manic]

I will say, though, that I buy/rent games on my PS3 rather than my 360 if given the choice now because my 360 is acting weird sometimes (graphical corruption that goes away when it's turned off and back on) and I don't want to have to wait 6 weeks until I can play it again. It's easier to just get them for the PS3 and not have to worry about it. A few friends of mine have picked up PS3's to avoid Xbox live. They got tired of paying for live. So any good multi-platform games they buy the PS3 version id possible to play online for free. I swore off the Wii virtual console shop due to the lack of transferability of the games. They die with your wii as Nintendo has a strict policy about those games and transferring and I ran into it when my new Wii was defective and I opted to exchange instead of sending it off to be refurbished. It made me realize anything I spent there is wasted when my wii dies after the warranty period. I also swore off Xbox live because of the inane credit card retention policy. They make it extremely hard to remove a CC after you use it and there really isn't any good reason for it. PSN or the wii Shopping channel don't demand your card stay persistent with your machine. So I'm on the PSN only for that sort of shopping. They allow you to redownload even off another machine and they allow me to remove my card off my machine if I wish.

Re:I wont' be the first one to say it but..

[YukonTech]

I'm not so sure about that. If you have a console for 2-3 years and it breaks (like both my game cube and ps2 did) you are left with a ton of games that do nothing without the console so unless your will ing to get rid of your entire game library you will buy another, and in some cases another.

Re:I wont' be the first one to say it but..

[Kildjean]

Did you realize that you can transfer all your virtual games into a memory card on the wii? if the console died you could replace it with a new one and just transfer the games back inside. Or just download them in the external sd card. that is what i did when i broke up with my previous gf and she decided to keep the console, so i transfered the games to an sd card and bought a new one... now i still can play my virtualconsole games.

Re:I wont' be the first one to say it but..

[Reapy]

Mine broke in just under a year. I put halo 3 in for the first time and all the dark blues were a bright green. My other games were fine except gears of war, which, when put in the xbox, told me to put the dvd in an xbox360 before continuing. I think it somehow is trying to play the game in dvd mode. A friend told me that this was similar to what happened to his before he got the 3 rings of light.

Around n64/ps1 gaming era my NES still worked without having to wiggle the cartridges around. My 5 year old ps2 works fine, hell my xbox works just fine too. Yet my most expensive, and least used, console, is already failing.

Very sad. They really do need to start throwing in hardware updates and making the machine last longer then they seem to be if they want it to have a 7 year life cycle.

Re:I wont' be the first one to say it but..

[Anonymous Coward]

You have to make sure it breaks down due to RROD, otherwise your warranty is useless.

Re:I wont' be the first one to say it but..

[gamer4Life]

By that time, Microsoft will have improved their XBOX, and you will have built up a large game library and will be forced to buy another XBox 360 to play your games again.

Re:I wont' be the first one to say it but..

[king-manic]

Or just download them in the external sd card. that is what i did when i broke up with my previous gf and she decided to keep the console, so i transfered the games to an sd card and bought a new one... now i still can play my virtualconsole games. Really. how? i do have a back up of my virtual console games but it refuses to allow them to be copied.

Re:I wont' be the first one to say it but..

[Trillian_1138]

Did you realize that you can transfer all your virtual games into a memory card on the wii? if the console died you could replace it with a new one and just transfer the games back inside. Or just download them in the external sd card. that is what i did when i broke up with my previous gf and she decided to keep the console, so i transfered the games to an sd card and bought a new one... now i still can play my virtualconsole games.

Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying, but my impression was that the virtual console games loaded onto an external memory card are still linked to the console they were originally downloaded to. From Wikipedia's article on the Virtual Console, "Virtual Console games are locked to the Wii on which they were purchased -- they cannot be transferred to another Wii via an SD card."

Wikipedia does link to an article which has an interview with a Nintendo rep who claims, "Nintendo will offer support to help Wii owners with problems to recover their games [if your console breaks]," so it looks like the GP 'should' have went through Nintendo to replace their console if they wanted to keep their downloaded games. Not saying the should *have* to, just seems like that's Nintendo's policy. (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=148658)

As I said, maybe I'm misunderstanding you. But from everything I've read, you shouldn't have been able to transfer your games off your girlfriend's console and back to a new console, and I suspect that's not actually what happened.
-Trillian

Re:I wont' be the first one to say it but..

[PingSpike]

Can you use virtual CC numbers for that setup?

Re:I wont' be the first one to say it but..

[KDR_11k]

You can still send your Wii in after the warranty expires, you just don't get the repairs for free. Just because you were too lazy to do it properly doesn't mean the system is faulty.

Re:I wont' be the first one to say it but..

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't worry, we know the OP was lying... he claimed to have had a girlfriend.

Re:I wont' be the first one to say it but..

[Anonymous Coward]

my previous gf

Well that should've given you enough hints that he's lying ;) This is slashdot; no one has girlfriends here!

Re:I wont' be the first one to say it but..

[king-manic]

You can still send your Wii in after the warranty expires, you just don't get the repairs for free. Just because you were too lazy to do it properly doesn't mean the system is faulty. Lazy? I had to do a lot of leg work to find a EB with a wii to exchange. A new wii vs a repaired wii is always better. A repair often gives you a refurbished replacement for the part that is broken and they ship it both ways. The defect on my wii was a broken optical drive that failed to read the dist about 60% of the time. Statistically a repaired electronic device has a drastically increased failure rate. A refurbed optical drive brings the expected lifespan of the wii down greatly as well. My wii was in my possession for less then a two days before the return. Why on earth would I send it for repair, ensuring a shorter lifespan and a much greater chance of head aches later? You may send it to nintendo for repair after the warranty expires as well but by the time a non-defective wii dies after the warranty it will likely be more cost effective to buy a new one versus sending an old one for repair.

So in the long run buying anything on the wii virtual console ensure extra costs in the future. Either you flush all your purchases down the drain by getting a replacement or you pay to have it repaired wasting that money.

Re:I wont' be the first one to say it but..

[king-manic]

Wikipedia does link to an article which has an interview with a Nintendo rep who claims, "Nintendo will offer support to help Wii owners with problems to recover their games [if your console breaks]," so it looks like the GP 'should' have went through Nintendo to replace their console if they wanted to keep their downloaded games. Not saying the should *have* to, just seems like that's Nintendo's policy. (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=148658)

As I said, maybe I'm misunderstanding you. But from everything I've read, you shouldn't have been able to transfer your games off your girlfriend's console and back to a new console, and I suspect that's not actually what happened.
-Trillian I don't think he actually did move the wii games. Nintendo told me I was out of luck. The mechanism they have is "repair" where they either transfer all the contents to another wii and reset the encrypt keys to the new one or they fix your old one by giving you refurbed parts. It wasn't acceptable because the wii was brand new and I would not accept refurbed parts and they couldn't guarantee a new wii was coming back. I opted to exchange and lose my $20 in wii points but it also meant anything I purchased will be at the mercy of Nintendo's policies, and essentially only last as long as my wii. PSN and live attach it to your account not your machine per se.

Re:I wont' be the first one to say it but..

[mgabrys_sf]

Before everyone sends in their PS2 failure stories - I'm still using the one I got on launch day. I've only had a couple of DVD's act odd in it - but apart from probably needing 7 years of dust blown out of it - it's working fine. I think Bioshock and Portal look great - but my neighbor is on his second 360 in it's first 6 months. My theory is that the whole design is faulty from a heat standpoint. Until I see the box change shape dramatically I don't think this problem will end soon. I've owned a g5 power-mac. Those things run hotter than hell.

Re:I wont' be the first one to say it but..

[anti-human 1]

I have a gamecube that started giving Disc Read Errors after about three years. I took it into a hole in the wall TV repair shop and got it repaired for $50. First repair didn't take and I had to take it back, but I only ever paid the cost of another game to keep my system going. It still works, but I predominately use the Wii for playing GC games now.

Re:I wont' be the first one to say it but..

[Nato2k]

As someone who worked for a game retailer since the launch of the PS2 the system was hardly reliable when it launched, some only had a lifespan of 6 months. In fact I would say that the 360 fails about half as much as the early ps2's did. That said it's still a very horrible rate of failure. The expected rate in the industry it 1%. 360's are closer to 10%. MS has been very proactive about extending their warranty to 3 years. With the PS2 if it was beyond the 3 month warranty you were out of luck. I haven't seen many PS3's fail, which is great considering Sony's iron fist stance with warranties. To the poster that compared the PS3 online service to XBL. You get what you pay for. Maybe when Home releases it will be worth comparing but for now XBL is a far better online service. $50 per year is hardly expensive when you think about the $15/month that millions of gamers pay for MMO's. The 360 has so far followed the success of the PS2 as far as coming out early, having the better releases and a good install rate, even with the reliability issues. It remains to be seen if it could have the life of the PS2 considering how much more competitive the market is now compared to when the PS2 launched. The PS3 has some big launches in the future as well with Gran Turismo 5 and FF13/MGS4 if they stay exclusive. I would imagine at least one of them will be, probably FF13. With that said I still don't get the feeling from my customers that the PS3 holds up when it comes to online play, which has become a big part of console gaming with games like Halo, Gears of War, and sports games.

Re:I wont' be the first one to say it but..

[edwdig]

Create a my.nintendo.com account and tie it to your Wii. If you get a new Wii, you change the association on your my.nintendo.com account and the games will stop working on the old system and be available on the new one.

I don't remember the specifics of how to do it, but I believe it was all mentioned in the Wii manual. If not there, then at my.nintendo.com.

Re:I wont' be the first one to say it but..

[Anonymous Coward]

The 360's fail because they use lead-free solder on a board that has insufficient cooling. The lead-free solder expands and contacts too much around the GPU/CPU and eventually the connection fails because they pop or warp their way out. The funny part is, you can fix and fix and fix, and eventually, other parts begin popping and you don't know which, and better yet, you track down and fix one pop, return it to the customer and another one pops. The CPU/GPU gets re soldered 4 or 5 times and eventually, the memory pops, or the CMOS ROM.

Now if you quadruple the airflow going through the sucker, then you would have no problems.

As far as the DVD-Rom failures, those are caused by years of slowly scratching the fsck out of the laser. The fix is an easy job to perform, so long as you have at least some experience.

Re:I wont' be the first one to say it but..

[KDR_11k]

So your VC purchases were worth less to you than your fear of a refurbished unit. What do you expect Nintendo to do about that? You haven't even verified if they'd send you a refurbished unit.

Re:I wont' be the first one to say it but..

[dabraun]

I also swore off Xbox live because of the inane credit card retention policy. They make it extremely hard to remove a CC after you use it and there really isn't any good reason for it.

Are you aware that nothing on live actually requires a credit card? Gold membership and points cards are available at pretty much every store that sells games - and they are priced exactly the same as buying points through the console/web site.

Re:I wont' be the first one to say it but..

[king-manic]

Create a my.nintendo.com account and tie it to your Wii. If you get a new Wii, you change the association on your my.nintendo.com account and the games will stop working on the old system and be available on the new one.

I don't remember the specifics of how to do it, but I believe it was all mentioned in the Wii manual. If not there, then at my.nintendo.com. Did so after exchange, no luck. Nintendo explicitly said the games are non transferable between machines. The manual does not provide instructions for this. It is explicitly not possible and the my.nintendo.com account is more for advertising.

Re:I wont' be the first one to say it but..

[king-manic]

So your VC purchases were worth less to you than your fear of a refurbished unit. What do you expect Nintendo to do about that? You haven't even verified if they'd send you a refurbished unit. They wouldn't guarantee it wasn't refurbished. Most repair centres use refubs (xbox certainly does as does Sony) And yes the $20 in VC was worth less then the higher rate of future breakdowns on the new unit. However does Nintendo really expect me not to complain with such policies? Remember this is slashdot, I thought we objected to unreasonably restrictive DRM but apparently Nintendo gets a free Pass?

Re:I wont' be the first one to say it but..

[king-manic]

Are you aware that nothing on live actually requires a credit card? Gold membership and points cards are available at pretty much every store that sells games - and they are priced exactly the same as buying points through the console/web site. You are aware that is irrelevant. I object to the policy. You may be able to circumvent it but the policy itself is not that great. I can certainly circumvent Chinese political speech laws when in china if I just don't say anything however that doesn't make the policy wrong.

Re:I wont' be the first one to say it but..

[edwdig]

Did so after exchange, no luck. Nintendo explicitly said the games are non transferable between machines. The manual does not provide instructions for this. It is explicitly not possible and the my.nintendo.com account is more for advertising.

The problem is you tried to do it after the fact. The my.nintendo.com FAQ specifically says that games you purchase before associating your shop channel account with your my.nintendo.com account don't get registered.

If it wasn't in the manual, it was in the user agreement when you create the Wii shop channel account. They were very specific that that was the reason for associating it.

Re:I wont' be the first one to say it but..

[king-manic]

The problem is you tried to do it after the fact. The my.nintendo.com FAQ specifically says that games you purchase before associating your shop channel account with your my.nintendo.com account don't get registered.

If it wasn't in the manual, it was in the user agreement when you create the Wii shop channel account. They were very specific that that was the reason for associating it. Can you direct me to the page I can't find it. And no I registered before purchasing and my.Nintendo account displays all 3 of the games I purchased. No luck transferring to the new wii. I may have missed something but here are the details:

Monday:
    Got wii,
    set up wii,
    put in wii sports played a bit.
Tuesday:
    Resitered for my.nintendo,
    linked to wii using shop channel settings, registered CC
    bought $20 of VC points,
    bought supermario world, ninja gaiden i, Bonks revenge.
    Tried to swap wii sports with Re4, disc read error,
    Tried to put in zelda, disk read error, kept swapping found it works less then half the time. Lots of odd clicking noises.
    Backup games onto SD card called support.
    support advised to send it for repair, wouldn't guarantee I wouldn't get refurbed wii's or parts. Also advised wii games non transferable.

Wednesday
    went to EB to exchange, no wii's at any location
    Left name/num and got in writing a statement they will honor an exchange when ever they get a wii in

thursday a week later
    EB calsl has wii to exchange
    Unassociated wii, Formatted memory
    Exchanged wii
    Went home with wii
    set up wii
    Associated wii with My.nintendo account
    Registered CC
    Attempted to copy VC channels/games. Won't allow files to be copied.

Wed a couple weeks later
    Posted some annoyed diatribe against Nintendo and X-box live.

If I missed a step, or can salvage any of the games in anyway I'd be glad to do so but So far no luck. A lot of mis information exists on the net (some guy on some random forum claimed you can still play them off the card you just can't copy it. blatant lie).

Re:I wont' be the first one to say it but..

[edwdig]

Log in to my.nintendo.com and the FAQ is near the top of the page. It basically just says you can't transfer the games to someone else, and that it only tracks games purchased after the association.

It must've been in the Wii Shop account creation that the info was, but I very specifically remember reading this, and I didn't go looking for it on my own. My understanding though was that deleting your Wii Shop account permanently closed it, however, if you went to another Wii and registered your my.nintendo.com account there first, you would move the account. I remember it specifically said that if you did the transfer, the games would stop working on the old console, which would imply you were supposed to do the transfer first.

Re:I wont' be the first one to say it but..

[zeet]

So why not a refurb? I've had startlingly good luck with refurbished things over the years - it seems like they get the QC that units coming off of the assembly line don't get. Even thinking about it, I can't remember ever having a refurbished product break, and I've bought plenty of refurbished things over the years.

Re:I wont' be the first one to say it but..

[king-manic]

So why not a refurb? I've had startlingly good luck with refurbished things over the years - it seems like they get the QC that units coming off of the assembly line don't get. Even thinking about it, I can't remember ever having a refurbished product break, and I've bought plenty of refurbished things over the years. I have too. they tend not to last as long. Someone linked to an article that stated refurbed 360's had double the failure rate of new 360's (360's returned after repair were more likely to fail again then new). I can't find the post. It was regarding a RROD article a while back. for optical drives, the electric motor in them has a finite lifespan. Refurbs are used products thus anything I get back is likely to have consumed part of that lifespan. Thats why refurbs are always cheaper. Wear and tear from usage will degrade their expected lifespans. Since I bought mine new and I don't get a discount on the defective drive, I didn't see a good reason to accept a diminished product for full price. Especially since optical drives are the first things to fail on most consoles (360's being the exception).

As well wear and tear in transit both ways can affect failure rates.

Re:I wont' be the first one to say it but..

[king-manic]

Log in to my.nintendo.com and the FAQ is near the top of the page. It basically just says you can't transfer the games to someone else, and that it only tracks games purchased after the association.

It must've been in the Wii Shop account creation that the info was, but I very specifically remember reading this, and I didn't go looking for it on my own. My understanding though was that deleting your Wii Shop account permanently closed it, however, if you went to another Wii and registered your my.nintendo.com account there first, you would move the account. I remember it specifically said that if you did the transfer, the games would stop working on the old console, which would imply you were supposed to do the transfer first. Excerpted from the FAQ section:

Q:
Can I register games that I purchase on my Wii Virtual Console?

A:
Yes! But, you must first link your Wii Shop Channel to your My Nintendo profile. Once this link is created, the Virtual Console games you download will automatically be added to the list of registered games.

Please note that this Wii Shop Channel/My Nintendo link is not created when you register your serial number using My Nintendo's Product Registration program. This link is created using the Wii Console (Wii Shop Channel). Click here for more information on how to link your Wii Shop Channel to your My Nintendo profile.

Q:
Why should I register my products?

A:
Registering your games and systems will immediately unlock cool stuff on Nintendo.com. This cool stuff includes screen savers, wallpaper, and icon sets for your personal computer. The more games you register, the more your status as a Nintendo NSider grows. NSiders who register multiple games will periodically become eligible for special offers.

Wii owners, you can register the serial number for your newly purchased Wii console and receive a free 90-day warranty extension! This 90-day warranty extension is exclusive to newly purchased Wii consoles and not available for any other system.

Keep checking Nintendo.com for updates on the latest promotions for NSiders.

Click here to start registering your products now!


The association is for advertising and Nintendo record keeping/market research purpose only. They do not allow your games to transfer between linked wii's. I remember reading this section as well before I opted for the exchange. I asked them about it specifically before the exchange. After my conversation with a wii help desk rep, reading all this, and my experience with the exchange I have opted to never buy from the Virtual console.

Re:I wont' be the first one to say it but..

[amohat]

Um, don't know about the rest of you, but for the first few years the PS2 broke all the fucking time. Mostly the optical drive, but whatever.

So don't gas up the PS2 like some sort of gold standard of hardware reliability.

(the recent 360 failure rates are ridiculous...I do give MS credit for addressing it in a reasonably customer friendly manner, though)

First things first

[Grandiloquence]

I'm guessing they need to produce a console that doesn't die after 30 days before thinking about making a console that lasts for 7 years.

How important will back compatability be?

[Sockatume]

Of course, it's not totally. Microsoft's decision how long the 360 lasts, they've got to ensure publisher support doesn't dry up like it did with the Xbox. I've read in a lot of places that this was down to customers jumping ship to the 360 and the back compatability wasn't really there, so there was no point in developing original Xbox titles. This seems like a good time to bring it up again and ask whether this is reason why the platform was abandoned, or a just-so story.

Re:How important will back compatability be?

[plasmacutter]

This seems like a good time to bring it up again and ask whether this is reason why the platform was abandoned, or a just-so story.

DRM, plain and simple.

xbox was modable, and with the new 360 they can now go as far as breaking your machine's hardware remotely (see my sig) to keep you from using your device how you want.

if they provided a fully reverse compatible api people would just use the original games to reverse engineer the 360, and microsoft can't have uppity people exercising their personal property rights.

Re:How important will back compatability be?

[Anonymous Coward]

DRM plain and simple? I doubt it...perhaps a factor but probably not "simple".

Wasn't cost of XBOX hardware a big factor? Specifically the more off the shelf variety used didn't allow much reengineering to be done over time to simplify and reduce the cost of the thing, 360 shouldn't have the same extent of the problem. As soon as you change hardware backwards compatibility becomes trickier....

Maybe some other reasons...but do you really think every single design decision was done for DRM? You don't think DRM isn't just one of many, many factors driving decisions?

Re:How important will back compatability be?

[aichpvee]

The biggest factor in killing the original xbox is that it was a financial failure that held very little market share. microsoft jumped the gun and released on a 4-year schedule to be first, because they care more about spreading their desktop computing monopoly to the living room than with putting out a good product or anything else.

Of course they're going to be jealous of the PS2 lifespan. It's been a great machine (minus a few hardware difficulties early on) with possibly the deepest lineup of games on any console, ever. Not to mention that it's still killing both "next gen" consoles in sales despite being 7 years old.

Sure, the DRM is a nice bonus for microsoft at this point. But they would have dropped the original xbox cold and rushed 360 to be first regardless of whether or not they could have ramped up the "security" against their own customers.

Re:How important will back compatability be?

[SethraLavode]

This seems like a good time to bring it up again and ask whether this is reason why the platform was abandoned, or a just-so story.

There's really shouldn't be a whole lot of mystery surrounding the retirement of the Xbox. Microsoft didn't own much of the IP that went into the machine. The original Xbox was pretty much off-the-shelf components that they didn't own the rights to. Microsoft wasn't able to renew the licenses when they expired, so they had no choice but to stop making them. The situation with NVidia was well-publicized: it's possible MS could have bought additional time, but at that point it just wasn't worth it. The 360 was on its way and was theirs, so while they could have squeezed out more royalties from lingering Xbox sales, it didn't make financial sense to do so.

Re:How important will back compatability be?

[KDR_11k]

I would ignore what they spout. Every console maker announces that the console will live 10 years but unless the console takes #1 they usually abandon it by the time the next gen comes out.

They have a hard road ahead then

[Anonymous Coward]

The PS2 is still the only console I own.

Re:They have a hard road ahead then

[Anonymous Coward]

Mine died earlier last year. After having been with me for 6 years, 4 cities in two different countries and many unforgettable squandered hours ;_;

Re:FIST SPORT!

[Migylesa Rex]

Interesting, I recall my playstation two breaking itself twice, ruining my soul calibur disc as well as my disgaea disc. so far, with the hardware problems, microsoft is following closely in sony's footsteps.

Xbox 1 owner here

[mezron]

That still burns me about the first xbox. It's life was way too short. I'd consider getting a 360 since it looks like a great machine, but after the way MS killed the original xbox after 4 years no way. Some 3rd party developers made games to stretch it out to 5 years, but still...

Burn me once, etc...

Re:Xbox 1 owner here

[DrXym]

That still burns me about the first xbox. It's life was way too short. I'd consider getting a 360 since it looks like a great machine, but after the way MS killed the original xbox after 4 years no way. Some 3rd party developers made games to stretch it out to 5 years, but still...

Not just short but artificially shortened. Microsoft basically pulled the plug on the XBox as soon as the 360 appeared. The PS2 is clearly last gen, but Sony are still producing new versions of it even now.

Re:Xbox 1 owner here

[king-manic]

Not just short but artificially shortened. Microsoft basically pulled the plug on the XBox as soon as the 360 appeared. The PS2 is clearly last gen, but Sony are still producing new versions of it even now. The major difference was that the PS2 was profitable per unit (ignore r&d) soon after launch while the Xbox was never profitable per unit up until it's demise. Mostly due to the sourced parts and IP Microsoft had to deal with. Sony's costs on the PS2 diminished continually while Microsoft's weren't as much under their control. A key part of that was the inclusion of the hard drive, HD's decrease in price per GB but generally not very much per unit. Contributing to their decision to partially ditch it in the 360.

Re:Xbox 1 owner here

[Evilducks]

There is a notable difference here in that the PS2 was a hugely successful and profitable piece of hardware that continues to outsell its 'next-gen' counter part on a regular basis, while the xbox was built and sold at a loss for MS and was quickly ignored by consumers as soon as the 360 hit shelves. Why would MS continue to support a system that is basically dead weight to consumers and a huge hole in their coffers, and conversely, why would Sony not continue support for PS2 since it is still the major source of income for their gaming division?

I'd prefer

[Moryath]

if the console actually lasted that long.

I sent one back for "red ring of death" - which they still won't admit is their own fucking fault for not putting in enough cooling for the original processors (multiple sites have opened up the new ones and photographed the enlarged heatsinks they're putting in now compared to the original).

What do I get back? A "replacement" unit that dies a month later because the fucking DVD drive motor is defective.

So for this year, I've actually had my 360 for 10 of the 12 months (a full 1/6 of the year) because the fucking morons won't do a proper "advance replacement" (you guarantee w/ credit card that you'll send the defective unit back in the box they shop your replacement) and insist it goes to the factory where their techs will go "yup, it's defective" and ship another out.

Re:I'd prefer

[Thyamine]

This is exactly what happened to me. I had to send my first back in because of the Red Ring of Death, and now the DVD drive died about a month ago. I have yet to call them about it, but this is the type of problem that will keep them from their hope of being like the PS2. The only thing that will keep me from replacing it with a PS3 is the number of games I already own for the 360. Otherwise I'd be moving on to other consoles.

Re:I'd prefer

[Anonymous Coward]

I have to say that's some strange coincidence with that broken DVD drives in the replacement units:

I don't have an xbox myself, but a good friend of mine has one.
He had to send his one back because it didn't work anymore (don't know if it was the red ring for sure, but it's not unlikely). They sent a replacement. And although the DVD drive "worked" it put a huge round scratch on the DVDs, practically destroying them. And guess what support told him: That's not microsoft's fault, they have "proven that this is impossible". He must have been shaking his xbox or sth. Yeah, sure!

Seems like they have 2 stacks of broken units (red ring and broken dvd) and just send you one from the other back.

Re:I'd prefer

[SuperKendall]

The only thing that will keep me from replacing it with a PS3 is the number of games I already own for the 360. Otherwise I'd be moving on to other consoles.

So in other words you are saying, you'd prefer to keep digging that whole deeper rather than exert a little to climb out.

Re:I'd prefer

[antek9]

The only thing that will keep me from replacing it with a PS3 is the number of games I already own for the 360. Otherwise I'd be moving on to other consoles.

Ok, this will be obvious, but that is the kind of situation eBay was invented for. There is a German saying that goes: "Besser ein Ende mit Schrecken, als ein Schrecken ohne Ende." (An ending with horrors is better than never ending horror.) What's the appropriate idiom in English, as I can't seem to find it?

Yes, I do realize that you might be talking about games that are exclusive to 360 as well, ones that you will be missing, but there might be more to gain in the long run. And thank you, I'm neither a shill nor paid to say this.

Re:I'd prefer

[hurfy]

You mean this isn't exactly what they mean by having the lifespan of the PS2?

Who is buying PS2 if it is not to replace one? I can't believe that many people are buying one for the first time ;)

Re:I'd prefer

[tepples]

The only thing that will keep me from replacing it with a PS3 is the number of games I already own for the 360. Otherwise I'd be moving on to other consoles. Ok, this will be obvious, but that is the kind of situation eBay was invented for. There is a German saying that goes: "Besser ein Ende mit Schrecken, als ein Schrecken ohne Ende." (An ending with horrors is better than never ending horror.) What's the appropriate idiom in English, as I can't seem to find it? The U.S. idiom is "It's a sunk cost."

Re:I'd prefer

[zoney_ie]

Eh... people are still having kids? Most kids don't start out with a PS2 right away from birth!

Re:I'd prefer

[Shadow99_1]

Having worked in retail during the life cycle of the PS2 I can say, beyond any and all doubt, that the Xbox 360 is no worse than the PS2 in regards to issues. I once had a customer buying their 5th PS2 in 3 years... Then again while working retail I saw alot of things that just make me believe that all the console vendors are idiots about hardware... And it's all done in the name of lowering cost of construction...

No he doesn't.

[SmallFurryCreature]

If he did, MS would have made ONE version of the 360. Does he really think he can get away for 7 years with a console without a harddisk for that long? Does he really think DVD's are going to be a big enough storage option for that long?

MS has set themselves up to have a constant stream of 360 setups that won't be good enough to play new releases. A game will need a HD, a game will need HD-DVD and whatever else MS WILL decide to add in the future. Make NO mistake about it. MS will find it impossible to resist to release newer 'better' versions of the 360.

Then there is the hardware itself, current generation consoles are obsolete already compared to the PC. Even a modest PC gaming rig will have more video memory then consoles have for TOTAL memory.

Does this matter? Can you say MMORPG? That is one big cash machine in the game industry but so far there has been little luck getting it too run on consoles. That is because in a MMORPG you never really know what is going to happen next. They are memory hogs because they need to have lots of data loaded all the time.

In a more traditional game, no matter how large the level, it is more or less up to the designer WHAT is actually in that level. In a MMORPG (or for that matter a modded game like The Sims or Oblivion) the contents of a level can skyrocket simply because of varation.

I can come across several dozen people each in outfits with their own textures.

Stream load that!

It is one of the reasons why user mods to games like The Sims and Oblivion and Never Winter Nights seem to always include higher resolution textures and more style choices. Why didn't the company include them from the start? Because their minimum requirements would have skyrocketed. My 'pimped' oblivion makes the original look like morrowind but the cost in hardware is extreem.

We all seen how PC games that got the console treatment had to be butchered to deal with the limitations of obsolete hardware. Deus Ex 2 anyone? Why can't I access the huge amount of user mods on the console versions of Oblivion? Where is the user commonity of the Console version of The Sims?

7 years is a long time for the 360 but more importantly Microsoft. Sony is a different company then MS, it (used to be at least) is a hardware company. MS is a software company, and I think MS will find it impossible to resist pushing updates.

The proof? The lifespan of the x-box. It was DEAD the moment the 360 was released, Sony is still actively working on the PS2. This despite the fact that the x-box was a younger machine.

Hardware limitations aside, MS is just not a company that can support a product for so long without new must have features being slipped in. When they see that PC gaming (in which they after all have a very important role) is overtaking their console gaming division in capabilities they WILL release a new 360 with more memory or something, effectivly ending the life of previous models.

But hey, if they don't that is good new too, I am looking forward as a PC snob of half a decade of looking down on console gamers and their quant old relics again.

Re:No he doesn't.

[WankersRevenge]

I've always understood the first iteration of the xbox to be a wash. Microsoft was making a beachhead in a new market, and it seems to me that they were willing to suffer the initial losses so that they could build the foundation for the current generation (a la 360). The quality issues seemed to be a result of a rush to market without adequate testing and had not the specter of rapid development haunted them, it would have appeared to be a rather successful strategy.

As for console redesigning, Microsoft can integrate the HD-DVD for movie viewing, but I can't imagine them being dumb enough to balkanize their own user base. To make such a move would in essence, shift the current generation to a new generation (a la xbox version 3). The last thing Microsoft wants to do is to split both their user and developer base into two different versions of the same product (core, premium, and elite are really the same product with different accessories bundled).

I love my 360 and I hope it sticks around for awhile. And when they add new features, I don't thank Microsoft, I thank Sony and Nintendo for giving them the heat. Let's face it, the true victor in this current generation (pet peeve - it's no longer next gen) is the consumer (and, well, IBM). Competition keeps the players honest, and we all reap the benefits from it.

Re:No he doesn't.

[Liquidrage]

Your post is really a bunch of poor assumptions, that have been addressed elsewhere. I mean, before you posted.

The 360 is already on year two. They've already stated there will be no HD-DVD games. The PS2 was trumped by computers long before that one started to fade. And really, you could say it isn't even fading yet, and computers are way past what the PS2 can do.

The fact that you used WILL doesn't mean your right. The 360 will most likely stay as is, with improvements only being ones of comfort, not need. I won't use WILL in all caps, but I will say there's a better chance of me being right then you being right.

Re:No he doesn't.

[G Fab]

It was no wash, my friend. It was unnecessarily expensive to the tune of several billions. MS could have figured out a way to do it cheaper, but instead went with the idea of makeing the supreme.

The supreme, in technology, is always a loser. It's far too expensive and not that much better than a cheap alternative (the ps2). Sony somehow emulated the xbox instead of the PS2... MS did not simply pay the price of entry with the XBOX, they screwed up in several ways.

Re:No he doesn't.

[brkello]

The Xbox was dead when the 360 was released because MS killed it. They used it as a learning experience to get in to the market and wanted to really focus on this generation. So that really isn't proof of anything. Sony, on the other hand, is making more off of the PS2 than the PS3 so it would be daft for them to stop supporting it.

MMORPGs have been stuck on systems much worse than the 360 (e.g. FFXII)...they may have to tone down the graphics a bit, but that isn't something that is driving the console market anyways.

The lack of a hard drive on the core model is a mistake. No argument there. But it is one they could fix easily.

Re:No he doesn't.

[WankersRevenge]

From a business standpoint, it was a total wash. They didn't make a single dime off the xbox. MS had no experience in the console arena. They knew the xbox would tank. They expected it. If they didn't expect it, the loss of capital would not have been tolerated and the 360 would not exist. The first generation was all about establishing a brand, laying down the infrastructure, and learning the ropes. In such light, Microsoft achieved their goals. This current generation is all about owning the market and now, they will not tolerate failure (a la red ring = Peter Moore ba bye). if this current generation loses money like the last, then it will be the last xbox (which doesn't look to be the case with gaming division making a profit for the first time thanks to Halo).

As for supreme technology, again, it was a rush to the market with x86 components. Look at the nVidia screwup. Look at the manufacturing screwup (technology not going down in price). They needed to get something out before the PS2 could totally dominate (which they did anyway). By rushing it to the market a year late -- they *thought* they at least put up a fight. I'm sure MS would have specialized the console components to enable cheap manufacturing, but they didn't have the time nor experience in the market, so they screwed themselves. You know they old saying, Cheap - fast - quality, now choose two.

Re:No he doesn't.

[AbRASiON]

I really don't want to address such a long long post, now I know how people who reply to me feel.
Long story short, you're right - and wrong.
Microsoft have seggregated the market with the hard disk and non hard disk edition of the 360, you're right.
The thing is though, they will always support a baseline with the console.
There ARE rumours there may be some hard disk only games, which would not be unlike N64 games which required the expanded memory pack for the system.
Sure it's rare and it's bloody stupid to insist an end user have to upgrade a console but ultimately it's my belief that IF they make any games with mandatory hardware upgrades - that will be the only required upgrade.
Other than that one thing, they will never ever release a game on HD-DVD, it's specifically a movie format and none of the current 10,000,000 360's out there have the HD-DVD built in, it's simply not going to happen, it would be suicide and is frankly not how the console market works.
I realise I'm contradicting myself here by insisting they will support the minimum baseline and yet possibly demand the hard disk but it's like a rock in a hard place situation.

See, Microsoft want to achieve the cheap - 99$ console one day, because this is when a console is worth the most, people pick them up for spare pocket change and they buy games for them, everyone has one so more people buy one, look at the PS2 for example, it's still selling tonnes of software and frankly, keeping Sony's gaming division alive while the PS3 ramps up.
Therefore, having a cheap basic edition without a hard disk will allow them to pick up those really cheap customers.

Microsoft 'took it in the ass' so to speak on the first Xbox, due to the fact that nvidia and intel didn't want to drop the licensing fees on the hardware, hence MS simply dropping the Xbox 1 like trash, unfortunate for MS and unfortunate for us too but they could never achieve the 99$ console without losing money (and no, not all consoles are sold at a loss, towards the end of their life they are sold at a profit)

Microsoft DO want that long, profitable life out of the 360 this time round, for so many reasons such as the ones I listed above, plus the cost of entry for a new console / platform / sdk etc etc is absoloutely and utterly mammoth, it's NOT smart for them to launch into the Xbox 720 early if they can milk the 360 for profit as much as possible.
A long lasting console is good for EVERYONE, the manufacturer is happy, the 3'rd parties are selling games and happy and the gamers are getting lots of games, some good, some bad - but lots of choice.

Frankly this is one of the first good things I've heard from Microsoft, because as an Xbox 1 owner I did not enjoy being 'shat on' with them dropping support for the console like a dumb brick, it was the most powerful console of the last gen, yet it died the earliest and at MS's hands (ultimately Intel and Nvidia's)

In 2.5 years time, the Xbox 360 will probably be quite a bit cheaper, with a lot of good games and hopefully quieter and more reliable then.
Sure they might release more and more damned editions but it's my belief that anyone who purchased a launch Xbox 360 core will still be able to play ALL games released for the system even in 3 or 4 years time, that's just how console platforms work. (yes, to re-state, it is possible they may expect a hard disk, however that may be the only component, HD-DVD will never be mandatory in this generation - period)

oh and yes, I'm a PC gamer, PS2 owner and Xbox 1 owner.

Apply same thinking to Vista

[koblek]

Mount suggested that a rush to create a new generation of consoles was not necessary until there was a compelling hardware feature to justify it. I wish they applied the same thinking before creating an OS that no one wants and releasing games that ONLY work on that OS. This is what killed Shadowrun's sales

Re:Apply same thinking to Vista

[The-Bus]

Shadowrun killed Shadowrun's sales. It didn't do well on the 360 either.

Re:Apply same thinking to Vista

[LrdDimwit]

Shadowrun had a few problems, one of the biggest of which is "license desecration". They took the Shadowrun name, and went and made something totally unlike Shadowrun. The problem here has two parts -- one, the Shadowrun name means little or nothing to people who aren't fans; the Shadowrun property is fairly niche. It isn't like "Dungeons and Dragons" or "Final Fantasy" where you slap a name on something for some cheap extra sales. And two, the people who ARE fans were totally incensed by their decision. They took a very involved RPG setting with a dark, intricate setting and turned it into a storyless shooter. (So little story, in fact, it has no single-player.) I mean, fans were outraged to the point that the developers of the pen-n-paper game made statements disavowing the game and saying "We offered to help them make it something cool, they weren't at all interested."

Well duh.

[neo]

Clearly one of the most innovative pieces of the Playstation 3 platform is the virtual environment. Not as open ended as Second Life, you can still do all the critical things you would like. There are three things people want from a virtual environment:

1. Permanency

When someone moves an object, they want that object to stay moved. When they kill a dragon they want that dragon to stay dead. When they learn a new skill they want to always have that skill.

2. Diversity & Uniqueness

They want their characters to be unique, just like everyone else. In addition items, locations, sounds, movements, should all be things that are different from person to person. No one wants to show up to the party in the same bunny suit as that other furry.

3. Interaction

People want to have a fairly rich connection with other people. The ability to build groups and maintain them. The ability to create relationships that have in game world effect. These are things people want because they mimic the things they sometimes can't have in real life.

Ditch any pre-created, cookie cutter crap. Let the players rule the world. Fuck off with your sofa units and strine green stripe patterns, I say never be complete, I say stop being perfect, I say let... lets evolve, let the chips fall where they may... wait, I'm from a different movie.

Re:Well duh.

[sxeraverx]

If only Sony would combine Home with LittleBigPlanet.... That would yield exactly what (you think) people want, at least from what I've seen of the two.

Re:Well duh.

[neo]

If only Sony would combine Home with LittleBigPlanet.... That would yield exactly what (you think) people want, at least from what I've seen of the two.

In some ways yes. There are other bits that need adding, but I don't want to give everything away. If you're looking for someone who has put the pieces together, give me a call. It love to work on a real project.

Not Going To Happen

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft will be lucky to last to the end of next year. Every move Microsoft has made with the 360 indicates an quick exit from the console hardware market.

1) The inherently defective hardware design. Every new revision of the 360 hardware has continued to fail regardless of how many heatsinks and other bandaids are put on the motherboard. This is not a single bad supplier or a switch to a single better component problem, this is an endemic problem with the fundamentally poor design of the 360 hardware.

2) The collapse of Microsoft's first party and exclusive developer studios. Bungie is now multiplatform, BioWare has gone off to EA, Bizarre has gone off to Activision, etc. Microsoft now only has Rare and Lionhead as their sole first party developers. Rare is a basketcase and nothing but a shell of the console gaming powerhouse they used to be, Lionhead is at best a minor studio.

3) The last gen storage problem for the 360. Only 7 gigs or so for the 360's DVD drive - which is around 1-2 gigs smaller than last gen for storage space.

4) A complete lack of a roadmap or information on plans for the 360 beyond 2007. Canceled 360 conferences and almost complete silence on what Microsoft has planned for the system now that Halo 3 and Mass Effect are here.

Eight more years? Microsoft is will have moved on to focus completely on Vista gaming a year from now.

A 360 with the Lifespan of a PS2?

[quickpick]

Only if the 360 and the PS3 spawn some kind of demonic love child... Besides my 360 gets all my love but suffers RROD, My PS3 gets a passing glance and attention only when my 360 suffers RROD. That and when I need my warhawk fix, aww ya baby...give me some sugar!

Re:A 360 with the Lifespan of a PS2?

[antek9]

Well, how often does your 360 suffer RROD? Does it do that on a daily, weekly, or monthly basis?

Issues

[Pojut]

Well, if Microsoft wants their console to last that long, I think it MIGHT make it...so long as a couple things happen (most likely already mentioned)

1. Fix the hardware issues. I personally have never had a problem with any of my 3 consoles, knock on wood (1 firmware modded, 2 not modded) and I don't personally know anyone that has, but it's obvious something is going on with it.
2. Either drop the core, or put a hard drive in there with it. I'm sorry, but the lack of the hard drive is really what is keeping the system back. It has decent power in the hardware department, but the lack of a garunteed hard drive has to be a bit cumbersome.
3. Open the console up! I know this is a tough thing to do while contiuing to combat piracy to the best of their abilities, but opening the console up a bit (allow user-created themes, rewrites of the OS/Front end, etc.) would definately help to ensure people continue using it...working with the group that made TVersity would also be a smart move. Hell, they could even make it as they do now so that any modded console still functions, it's just banned from live
4. Speaking of banning people from Live, they state the reason they don't want people accessing Live with modded consoles is for "security reasons". Look, I can understand them not wanting people to cheat, but I would personally still have spent money on the Marketplace even if I couldn't play games online with that 360 anymore...they should lock those modded consoles into a Silver Live membership...that way, they still get money from people, those people can still download demos and whatever, AND they can stick by their BS security reasoning.

Microsoft can do it, but it's going to take a lot of work on their part to make it happen.

Easiest path to longevity

[Anonymous Coward]

1) Build a console that will physically LAST 7 years.
2) Sell 40 million of them.

Microsoft failed at #1, so they stand no chance of reaching #2. It really doesn't matter what the marketing weenies wish for when they close their eyes.

Re:Easiest path to longevity

[aichpvee]

PS2 sold something like 120 million. Though I have to agree, at the pace 360 is going, they won't hit even 40 million by the four year mark when microsoft retires it to focus on the xbox vista.

Re:Easiest path to longevity

[masticina]

You mean the HD-DVD bearing, 1080p, 1Gbyte memory, 120Gb hard disk bearing one. Yeah..how long...

Slimline is a beast

[ellessidil]

I've had my slimline for about 4 years now, and the only problem I have had is with the laser not reading DVD movies anymore, which doesnt bother me, thats what I have a DVD player for. And I keep that thing running almost 24/7, so that says alot about the quality of the hardware. MS can only hope to produce something remotely similar.

Re:Slimline is a beast

[Indes]

A DVD burnt at 1x/2x fixed that problem on my thick, older PS2. (Any Higher speeds = problematic)

Re:Slimline is a beast

[Lectoid]

It all depends on your luck. I had a PS2 that the drive died. But I also have a 360 launch day system that I have never had problems with. The 360 is on from about 5:30pm till 10-11pm every day. My kid watches movies on it, and when she goes to bed I play on Live. But I am not denying that there isn't a huge problem, I had two friends that had 360's die in the last year, and they got theirs about a year after I did.

Re:Slimline is a beast

[WiseWeasel]

Try using Taiyo Yuden DVD-R media. They're available for cheap online, and they have the best compatibility with DVD players. I am in no way affiliated with Taiyo Yuden or DVD-R retailers...

Re:Slimline is a beast

[Emetophobe]

I still have my launch PS2 from November 2000 (7 years ago) and it still works flawlessly. I shelved it a few months ago when I bought a PS3, but it still worked right up until I made the switch.

More amazingly, I still have a Sega Master System from 17 years ago that still works.

Will This Thinking Help PS3?

[thebonafortuna]

I love the idea of a console lifespan being six to eight years. As we saw with the PS2, while it wasn't the most powerful towards the end of it's life-cycle (which hasn't yet ended), developers had learned how to code for the system so well after five or six years, games often looked and loaded comparably to the more powerful systems. Devil May Cry 3 is a great example of this, with its impressive graphics and negligible load times.

That being said, I have to wonder if Microsoft isn't ceding an advantage to Sony with this policy. While games designed for the 360 still look comparable (and in many cases, better than) the same games on PS3, the PS3 is undoubtedly the more powerful machine. Couple that with the greater capacity of blu-ray discs, and I'm forced to wonder whether the PS3's extra technologies give it significant advantages in such a long run.

Even if one concedes the Cell processor is difficult to program for, its clearly not impossible to do so. If vendors continue producing games for the PS3 (and if we're having a realistic argument, its safe to say they will do so, even if not exclusively), they will become more and more familiar with the nuances of programming over time. As this happens, the greater resources on the PS3 will shine through more and more. After four or five years, its entirely possible we could see significant differences in game-play and graphics on PS3 games, opposed to 360 games.

Re:Will This Thinking Help PS3?

[Sciros]

Well it's either a problem or it isn't, and you gotta pick one ^_^ (I may have misread your post, but...) On the one hand the PS2 did (and continues to do) very well despite being less powerful than other consoles out there. On the other hand you say that in the long run the PS3 will have significant andvantages due to more firepower than the 360. Aren't those two analyses somewhat at odds?

Re:Will This Thinking Help PS3?

[king-manic]

Even if one concedes the Cell processor is difficult to program for, its clearly not impossible to do so. If vendors continue producing games for the PS3 (and if we're having a realistic argument, its safe to say they will do so, even if not exclusively), they will become more and more familiar with the nuances of programming over time. As this happens, the greater resources on the PS3 will shine through more and more. After four or five years, its entirely possible we could see significant differences in game-play and graphics on PS3 games, opposed to 360 games. I think with Ratchet and clank the difference is starting to surface. The game looked good but the real distinction is the number of objects on screen were sometimes staggering without slowing the machine down. The number of fully animated object like passing traffic, animal life, distant objects etc... made it a more immersive and believable world.

Re:Will This Thinking Help PS3?

[rwven]

I'll agree with that. I'm about 1/3 through the game right now and there have been many points at which I was truly surprised by the ability of the PS3 to keep up with what was going on. Just the fact that there can be thousands of items on screen (bolts, raritanium, enemies, stuff happening in the background), they can ALL have their own pretty little effects and animations going, and the framerate is 100% liquid...it's just astounding.

I'm pretty unbiased in my standings between the 360 and PS3. I own both consoles and enjoy both. The PS3 really did pull one out with this game though. I only hope that the more "hardcore" gamers aren't turned off by the initial cartoony nature of the game. Once you get into it you realize how beautiful and incredibly well done it is. Some of the in-game rendered cutscenes look like something straight out of pixar.

Re:Will This Thinking Help PS3?

[thebonafortuna]

I honestly don't know if it will be a problem. My guess is that in the next two to four years, the PS3 will leave the 360 behind in terms of overall quality. If we're talking the seven year life-cycle Microsoft might be striving for, I'm guessing the investment Sony put into the PS3 will almost certainly pay off, and the PS3 will far surpass the 360. From my understanding, the Cell processor isn't nearly as difficult to program for as many on Slashdot would have us believe. I could be wrong though, as evidenced by the PS2 competing so effectively against XBox.

What do you think?

Re:Will This Thinking Help PS3?

[Chosen Reject]

They would be at odds if any of the PS2's competitors (the Xbox and the Gamecube) also had a life-span of the PS2. As it is, since the PS2 is the only console of that generation still selling, then of course it is the most powerful console from that generation that is still around. So when a developer makes a game for a last gen console they pick the PS2 (obviously) but they also have all the experience of it being around for so long that they know the ins and outs.

Flash forward a few years to when developers have 5-6 years of experience developing for the PS3 or the 360. Suppose both are going to have the same life-span as the PS2 (which is probably the case per this article). So now when a developer wants to make a game for a "last-gen" console, they will pick the PS3 (I'm just following the GPs argument here) because while it is more difficult to code for, they now have the requisite experience with the difficulties and can make it that much better than they could on the 360 even thought they have the same amount of experience with it as well.

In all of this, I'm not necessarily agreeing with the GP (though he does have a good argument). I'm just pointing out that there is no contradiction here simply because the PS2 has faced no competition from its generation once the current generation began. Apparently the PS3 will have competition and thus the relative capabilities of the machine does come into play, whereas the relative capabilities of the PS2 did not.

Re:Will This Thinking Help PS3?

[fwarren]

Yeah, the PS3 is going to have competition. They are still writing games for the PS2!

The PS2 is still being manufactured. Some of the units they made 7 years ago. Even if Sony stopped right now. There will still be a sizable PS2 market 3 or 4 years from now. As it stands, I think the PS2 will still be doing well in 7 years.

My 12 year old son is still clamoring for a PS2. So the PS2 market is STILL expanding.

Re:Will This Thinking Help PS3?

[coop247]

Your post is much too coherent for this discussion. Please resort to fanboy rants about exclusives and NPD numbers. BTW, I completely agree.

Re:Will This Thinking Help PS3?

[Sciros]

Hmm... personally I think that in terms of visual quality games on both systems will be on about the same level. Some Xbox titles (DOA2 Ultimate, for instance) that came out towards the end of the system's lifespan looked so good that they could almost pass for next-gen. I think that trend of progressively learning to better exploit the hardware on all consoles will continue. I also don't think that superior graphics affects how a system sells because the PS2's graphics were inferior to the GCN and Xbox and never really got close to them (well, maybe with RE4 and FFXII, but FFXII came out almost same time as PS3) and yet the PS2 outsold those consoles handily.

So.. people really don't care about graphical fidelity, if we look at sales of systems. What really sells systems is marketing, brand recognition (and loyalty -- the major reason Japan hasn't adopted the Xbox), and the titles advertised for it (well, that's part of marketing but I guess also implies exclusive titles). Sony KICKED ASS at advertising its PS2. They are doing a decent job with the PS3 but haven't yet found a sweet spot with the price point and titles offered (in my opinion).

So... the question of whether the PS3 will surpass the 360... I think it depends on how the companies continue to market the consoles and what titles they make available throughout their lifespan. Even a few choice franchises like Ninja Gaiden, Super Smash Bros, Final Fantasy, and Madden NFL can keep consoles afloat so I think that's what it will ultimately come down to.

Your thoughts on this?

Re:Will This Thinking Help PS3?

[MozeeToby]

I agree, I've always kind of wondered how long the 360 would be around. With the core system not having a HDD and with no HD drive I honestly figured it would be Christmas '09 for the next generation Xbox. It was actually a major reason I went with the ps3 instead. If the ps2 is ANY indication, there will be great games coming out on the ps3 until well into 2013.

Re:Will This Thinking Help PS3?

[thebonafortuna]

You make some great points. I don't think I would go as far as to say people don't care about graphic fidelity, but I do agree graphics play less of a role in sales than many think. To be honest, I have to wonder if XBox would have competed with PS2 on a much higher level had they been released closer together. I think part of the reason the XBox was able to build a loyal group of fans was, and indeed the reason people bought an XBox in the first place, was for the technology. It seemed people loved the ability to save games without memory cards, the impressive graphics, etc.

I agree with the marketing argument, and your point that franchises alone can keep a console afloat (a point well demonstrated by the GameCube). That being said, I'm relatively certain that if developers start taking advantage of the huge space afforded by blu-ray, and the content of these games starts exceeding capacity offered on discs for the 360, and content doesn't suffer at the expense of length, graphics, etc., people will gravitate towards the PS3 for those reasons, just as some did towards the XBox for its better load times, etc.

Sorry for the run-on sentence, its been a long day. Your thoughts?

Re:Will This Thinking Help PS3?

[thebonafortuna]

Haha, thanks for the laugh!

Re:Will This Thinking Help PS3?

[thebonafortuna]

Exactly. You have to wonder if developers aren't going to get somewhat frustrated with the disparity in 360 consoles. I like the idea of a cheap 360, but having no hard drive? That seems insane. At least throw an 8 GB disc on there or something!

On another note, do you happen to know if people can install their own hard discs on the "Arcade" 360's?

Wishful thinking?

[Ang31us]

I'm no Sony fanboy...as a matter of fact, I'm one of the few gamers who does not own a PS2 and I know I'm in a very slim minority.

Fact is, any console manufacturer would looove to have the PS2's sales lifecycle; it's the best-selling console of all time.

The other fact is that no matter what lies the XBox 360 game boxes tell (i.e. 1080i/p stickers on game boxes), the 360 renders games like Gears of War and BioShock in 720p (at best) and upscales its output to 1080i/p. Graphically, the 360 is an intermediate step between the Wii and PS3.

I am a Nintendo fanboy and hope they put out a next-generation console with improved motion controls and 1920x1080p graphics right around the time that PS3 hardware reaches the mass-market price-point of $200-250. That said, Nintendo has not been first to market with a console since the NES. Nintendo is surely hard at work on their next-generation console, but I will be pleasantly surprised if it sees the light of day before its competitors.

Re:Wishful thinking?

[the computer guy nex]

I would rather have a very good 720p image upscaled to 1080p than have a 1080p image at 20fps. Graphics wise the PS3 is the intermediate step between the Wii and the 360.

Re:Wishful thinking?

[king-manic]

Graphics wise the PS3 is the intermediate step between the Wii and the 360. Although it's really 720p, Ratchet and Clank will change your opinion of where the graphics on the PS3 sit. The problem thus far is that developers are still getting familiar with the PS3. So the first crop of 360 games looked like Xbox + more polies the first crop of PS3 games looks like 360 -frame rate. I think thats starting to change.

Re:Wishful thinking?

[JCSoRocks]

Yeah, if you look at the specs the PS3 is more powerful than the 360, it's also capable of creating higher-def images, so it's pretty insane to say it sits somewhere between the Wii and the 360. On paper the PS3's cell processors stomp the xbox 360's processor, but developers aren't yet taking advantage of the PS3's full computing power. It'll probably be another year before we see titles really starting to take advantage of the extra power.

Re:Wishful thinking?

[Werthless5]

"Graphics wise the PS3 is the intermediate step between the Wii and the 360."

Ah, to be so blissfully ignorant must be nice

Re:Wishful thinking?

[aichpvee]

You're also seeing a lot of games developed by teams that have worked on 360 for a while and are targeting that as the lead platform with the PS3 basically getting a port that happens to launch at the same time.

Re:Wishful thinking?

[Toonol]

It's funny... I think graphics have gotten to the point to where an accurate comparison can no longer be made. They're chaotic systems now, with different features and capabilities interacting with each other in weird and unpredictable ways.

I think both systems are in generally the same class. Other than that, what can be said? One system streams textures faster, another can apply more pixel filters, etc., etc. Does faster loading from a hard drive cache count as better graphics? What about a simpler architecture that makes coding graphics easier? About all you can do is compare on a game-by-game basis.

Re:Wishful thinking?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's not true at all. You're NEVER going to see the PS3's maximum power because that power is entirely theoretical and entirely impractical.

The SUs of the PS3 are shit, absolute shit. They, individually, run fairly slow. They, together, run fairly fast. However, they can only run special kinds of jobs and have no synchronization mechanism back to the core CPU or even with each other. Top that with the fact that they don't even speak the same binary as the core CPU.

So you can not use them to perform time-sensitive calculations because you cannot anticipate completion of jobs. You can not use them to load balance multiple threads of logic because they do not execute the same binary as the CPU. It's effectively like running a cluster of modest machines. You can do interesting things, like crunch numbers for water effects, but you cannot tie them into AI. It's great for that kind of shit, which is also why it's great for scientific purposes because it is a ready-made beowulf cluster. Asynchronous and isolated number crunching jobs.

So you have a massive 1970s Chevy V8 that lacks a timing belt where the drive shaft is connected to an engine from a Vespa. Good luck.

Re:Wishful thinking?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually many Xbox 360 games (PGR3, Halo 3, etc) are only rendered in 640p and are upscaled to 720p/1080i/p. The reason for this is that a 720x1280+ picture won't fit in the 10MB EDRAM with room for post processing effects (unless the image is tiled before hand which adds significant overhead).

Re:Wishful thinking?

[tepples]

Does faster loading from a hard drive cache count as better graphics? It does if the presence of a hard drive means you can use beefier compression, up to and including procedural synthesis of meshes and textures. It doesn't have to be as extreme as .kkrieger, but procedural synthesis might allow the equivalent of 100 GB of textures to be shipped in a 5 GB file.

Re:Wishful thinking?

[Ang31us]

Hello there, Mr. Bill Gates! ;-) I had no idea you read Slashdot!!! Thank you for honoring us lowly "patent infringers" with your presence. Let me be the first to welcome you by telling you that I will not be buying any Microsoft hardware or software until you back down from your patent threats against the open-source community.

I read the reference you sent and it talked about Madden 2008 running at 30 FPS, not 20 (the framerate is 50% faster than you claimed in your post, but I'll try to not cloud your truth with my facts) in 1080p on the PS3. Keep in mind that we're talking about the world's biggest console game port company, EA. They were probably targeting the 360 as the primary platform to make more $$$ from game sales, had to meet a release deadline that one of the suits placed in their calendar, and chose to lock the framerate at 30 FPS to save time when porting the game to the PS3. The article also names Resistance: Fall of man, Motorstorm, and Call of Duty 4 as games that perform better than Madden graphically on the PS3.

I think that the PS3's day will come when the price drops to a reasonable level ($200-$250). I do agree that we're having great Wii and 360 fun right now, but expect that the PS3's graphics will put those two systems to shame in the coming years on HDTVs. I will probably buy a PS3 for the Blu-Ray player and 1080p games. I see no point in buying a 360 for 720p games, because I would only be helping Microsoft fund their FUD campaign against the open-source community.

The newest HDTVs support 120 Hz refresh rates; there are models from major manufacturers (Sony, Toshiba, JVC, Mitsubishi) and Samsung also has a few 120 frame per second models that I'm looking at. The days of the 60 frame per second refresh rate for HDTVs and games are numbered and Microsoft is dreaming if they think that 720p@60hz will last them as long as 480i@30hz lasted the PS2.

I'd rather...

[AstrumPreliator]

... see them make the console itself have a lifespan of a few years (as opposed to the lifetime of this current console generation). Mine bricked back in May, if it wasn't for them extending the warranty I wouldn't have got a replacement (even though the replacement was bricked out of the box). Looking back on things I think I made a mistake buying a 360. I had mine less than a year, and currently I've been without one since May (thanks to the wonderful 6+ weeks wait time).

If they want to have a PS2-like lifespan they better work on fixing the console. It's not much fun owning a video game console which is being repaired/replaced for months on end.

100% backwards

[the computer guy nex]

This is one reason why the PS2 has sold more machines than any other console. The PS2 consistently breaks down a few years after (usually the laser on the DVD drive).

Most of these customers had a solid PS2 library already and had to buy another.

Re:100% backwards

[Doctor_Jest]

Funny how my launch PS2 still works... Guess it's not as ubiquitous as the RRoD...

YMMV... but I have only had Microsoft consoles fail on me... *shrug* meaningless, but mindshare is part of all of this, and if MS doesn't ramp up QC so everyone doesn't need to use their warranty, the next generation will have Microsoft going the way of Sega, in spite of having Halo 3.

Re:100% backwards

[michael021689]

My launch PS2 works too this day without a single error. Hell, I left the thing on with a game playing for three months in a row once. I would love to see a launch 360 do anything at that point in its lifespan.

Re:100% backwards

[JimboFBX]

I dont think they break down on their own as much as they are easy to break. I know my girlfriend's little brother's PS2 died on its own, and its replacement ruin Guitar Hero II and also died (my suspicion is that he just doesn't take care of it good enough). My own PS2 got shifted within the shell while traveling with it, so I have to have two controllers and a memory card in it just to play.

So I 100% agree that most PS2 sales are probably replacements.

Re:100% backwards

[lokiomega]

Ditto on the launch PS2 working fine years later... it's a little finicky sometimes with reading games but give it time it works itself out. I've left it on for a month straight, transported it around to friends' (can't remember if I ever dropped it) and it still works fine, honestly best console I've ever had besides my SNES which is still trucking like, what, 16 years later?

Re:100% backwards

[FauxPasIII]

> Hell, I left the thing on with a game playing for three months in a row once

Okay, I'll bite. Why on earth would you do that?

Re:100% backwards

[xhrit]

I still have my launch playstation in working condition.

Re:100% backwards

[SethraLavode]

Are you kidding? Have you seen the prices for the Sony-branded memory cards?

Re:100% backwards

[jamie(really)]

I have a launch 360. Its fine. I also have a launch PS2 and its fine too. And a launch Wii. I did once witness a PS-One start smoking. This was back before programmers were told not to make the disc seek too much :)

Re:100% backwards

[badasscat]

This is one reason why the PS2 has sold more machines than any other console. The PS2 consistently breaks down a few years after (usually the laser on the DVD drive).

Bullshit. People who say this are missing the obvious hole in their argument: attach rates.

If everybody out there were constantly re-buying broken PS2's, the attach rate would plateau and then actually drop. Think about it - a person with 10 games has an attach rate of 10. Then their console breaks, so they buy another one; now their attach rate is 5. (10 games divided by 2 consoles.) But that has never happened. The PS2's attach rate has only ever gone up, consistently, and at least to a year or two ago, the rise in attach rates was actually accelerating. (It's natural for attach rates to start to stabilize at the end of a system's lifespan, as people stop buying games for it.)

I've never been convinced that any model of PS2 has ever had a higher defect rate than the industry average, or were any easier to break. It was a popular system, so naturally you were going to have some people with breakdowns. It's not like the 360, which even MS has admitted has multiple design flaws (their own words) and seems to have close to a 100% defect rate, judging by both the anecdotal reports and by MS's expectations of what it's going to cost them to repair defective units. But here you have multiple people saying their launch PS2's work just fine - chalk me up as another, and Sony has never had to cop to any problems with these systems. There's never been any threat of any class action either.

I've seen about as many reports of the Wii overheating as I did of PS2 breakdowns in the early days.

Re:100% backwards

[beef623]

I do the same thing, my ps3 has been on almost constantly since launch usually for weeks on end. I usually leave it that way so I can just pick up and play when I can without having to worry about save points. That's also one of the main reasons I haven't bought a 360 yet...

Re:100% backwards

[sanosuke76]

Eh, I've got an '01 or so PS2, and an '02-'03 PS2. I've never had either one fail on me. I also have a Jan-or-Feb PS3 purchase which also hasn't failed me, and a PSP which DID die as a result of my accidentally dropping a CZ-97B 45 caliber handgun on its display as I was getting packed for a range trip. None of the current handheld game systems' displays would've survived that.

All three consoles are in active use today.

1x PS2 on loan to my fiancee - usually sees an hour or so per night

1x PS2 at my place - my fiancee tends to play it for a 2-3 hours per night, as she's presently hooked on FFX-2.

1x PS3 at my place - I play that one, although I doubt I'll get to play it anymore once she discovers Ratchet+Clank: Tools of Destruction for it.

I haven't had a single failure for any of these systems. On the other hand, two of my friends have gone through X-Box related failures - one lost an original X-Box, the other one had an RROD on his 360. I seriously doubt that there's a "consistent" pattern of breakdown on the PS2's, unless maybe you're talking about the later slimline models. I don't have one of those for comparison; I greatly prefer the more solid-looking original style case.

Re:100% backwards

[sscroggins]

We have 2 360s at home from within the first month of launch and they both work fine. However, our PS2 took a crap after 1 year. I find it hard to imagine that the problems are as extensive as your "close to 100% figure considering that of the people I actually know that own 360s, only 1 of 7 machines has had any kind of problem.

Re:Bwahahaaahahhahhahahaaa

[russlar]

With the penetration of the Wii among the cheap and casual market i'm sorry, but i can't read that and keep a straight face.

Why a hard drive?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is it so important for there to be a hard drive on the xbox 360?

Re:Why a hard drive?

[Pojut]

By having a hard drive in the system, coders would be assured that they could have something they could use as a buffer...games would benefit greatly if they could just load the stuff needed for the starting area, and then stream-load as the game played. Granted, Oblivion did decently with this, but it could still be improved (and frankly, Oblivion is one of the few that actually managed this well)

Plus, with a hard drive in every system, it might be possible to even set aside a portion of it (say, 512 megs to 1 gig) to act as a swap file, not unlike a PC. It would just enable better performance overall. Considering the Xbox had a hard drive in it (and you couldn't buy one without it), it's surprising Microsoft didn't do the same this time around.

Re:Why a hard drive?

[Anonymous Coward]

People have been decrying the whole "optional hard drive" thing since the 360 launched, yet I have yet to see a single game suffer because of it. Developers write games that use the hard drive if it is there, and don't if it's not. The original XBox had a guaranteed hard drive, yet name me a single type of game that played well on the XBox that is gimped on the 360.

The only difference I see is the annoying screen that always asks you what storage device you want to use when saving game state (the old XBox knew it had the disk, so none was necessary). I'd say after two years, MS has been proven right in its tiered strategy, and all the armchair hardware designers out there have been proven wrong.

Re:Why a hard drive?

[nuzak]

> The only difference I see is the annoying screen that always asks you what storage device you want to use when saving game state

This boggles the crap out of me, why I'm always getting that screen. I don't even have a memory card, I do have a hundred freakin gigs on the HDD. Maybe the 360 should try some really advanced AI and figure out that when there's only one available option, it might be a sensible default?

Re:Why a hard drive?

[iainl]

Some games do sensibly realise this. The default save routines that you get for 'free' in the SDK offer the choice, and it's these that you're seeing - not every dev wants to write their own instead.

PS2 vs Xbox

[Tony]

The PS2 wasn't that inferior to the XBox. The XBox was essentially a PC in a fancy (ugly, IMNSHO) case. The PS2 had an architecture geared specifically to games. I'd compare any of the later Ratchet and Clank PS2 titles with anything on the XBox. (Jade Empire was pretty stunning, though.)

Anyway.

The cell processor isn't hard to code for at all. It just takes a different mindset, and the ability to figure out what to turn into little processing packets and send out to a cell. The hardest part is really just managing the workflow among the various workers.

I think that game companies will see some real payoff in the very near future. I'm looking forward to Insomniac's next "Resistance" title, which will include things like texture streaming to reduce load time (which you can't do on a 360, because there's no guarantee of a hard drive).

In any case, both the 360 and the PS3 have a bright future. There are going to be some kick-ass games for both of them.

Re:PS2 vs Xbox

[SuiteSisterMary]

I think that game companies will see some real payoff in the very near future. I'm looking forward to Insomniac's next "Resistance" title, which will include things like texture streaming to reduce load time (which you can't do on a 360, because there's no guarantee of a hard drive).

Odd, given that one of the reasons Insominac gave for why Gears of War looked better than Resistance was that GoW used texture streaming.

Re:PS2 vs Xbox

[masticina]

Well yeah though now it seems games can use texture streaming so obviously the trouble was that the game dev kits we'rent "up to snuff" yet!

It should last...

[HalAtWork]

The Xbox 360 should at least be able to stay alive one year... I'm on my 3rd (bought an Elite, hopefully this one will stand the test of time, I don't want to fool around with MS's refurbished ones anymore)... A piece of equipment that expensive, and designed to be used for at least 5 years, should not have these kinds of problems!

What a bunch of BS

[Werthless5]

MS is clearly trying to use the Sega Genesis model; make a basic system and then continually create upgrades for it. HD-DVD attachment, bigger hard drives, HDMI port, etc. etc. And we all know how well that worked out for Sega.

The PS2 was one console, never needed to be upgraded to play new games, and it usually lasted forever. I still have my fat PS2 from early release, and it still works beautifully (had one disc read error a year ago that was fixed by cleaning the disc). Microsoft is clearly NOT going the PS2 route.

Re:What a bunch of BS

[HalAtWork]

One thing that killed Sega was that right after they released their premiere 32-bit platform, the 32-x, they released their OTHER primiere 32-bit platform, the Saturn. So after you bought all that Genesis kit you had to buy the Saturn. MS may not be bringing out a Saturn, but you could very well consider their next system as that, and if they keep gouging their customers for extras (extras on GAMES as well as hardware!!!) then gamers will do what I did with the Genesis and not buy their next system. I really loved the Genesis, even the Sega CD and 32x, but did not want to be gouged further.

Re:What a bunch of BS

[laffer1]

There was also the availability of the Saturn. I tried to buy one the first Christmas. Only Toys R Us carried them and they were sold out so quickly that I didn't even make it near the counter. After that I didn't see units. I've thought about buying one on Ebay just to see what it was like at this point. I've got a working genesis + cd + 32x, a second genesis (gen1) + cd (gen 2) + 32x that sometimes overheats, and a Dreamcast. To this day, I haven't found a console I like better. I'm sure part of it is memories, but I also loved the game library. The Wii comes close, it just needs a game library.

I hope to buy a PS3 if I can ever afford one. I ebay'd my xbox and I won't buy a 360 as they will just drop it like a rock again. (if it lasts that long) Microsoft has some nice titles for the 360, but I can't buy a new console every year. It's not how things work. I've got a working NES, SNES, N64, gba, the segas, and a wii here. If Nintendo and Sega could do it... I've always blamed sony for killing sega so I haven't bought any playstation to date.

Mindy Mount?

[C0rinthian]

Good lord, is Microsoft hiring executive porn stars now? Man, I'm working at the WRONG company.

Re:Mindy Mount?

[yassax]

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/mount/default.mspx

Totally...

Yeah, but ...

[ThirdPrize]

We have multi processors and sh!t hot graphics and network play. Can't think of what else they could add. The Xbox 360 on sale in 3 years time won't look a bit like the one on sale now though. It will have a new set of outputs for whatever standards they have then as well as a much bigger hard drive and (possibly) a compulsory HD-DVD drive for bigger games. It hasn't even lasted 2 years without that black one coming out with a few extra features. Possibly like the PC, the future will be incremental rather than major leaps.

Re:Yeah, but ...

[kannibal_klown]

The Xbox 360 on sale in 3 years time won't look a bit like the one on sale now though. It will have a new set of outputs for whatever standards they have then as well as a much bigger hard drive and (possibly) a compulsory HD-DVD drive for bigger games. It hasn't even lasted 2 years without that black one coming out with a few extra features. Possibly like the PC, the future will be incremental rather than major leaps.

Unfortunately they don't really want to go down that road, it would be a fiasco. Re: compulsory HD-DVD.

If they start forking the XBox 360 even more then it gets too complicated for the user. If the HDDVD drive becomes mandatory then what are publishers to do. Madden 2009 for XBox-360-with-HD-DVD edition?

Sure they can make some changes: slim it down, add some new output options, etc. But the instant they make it different it falls into the PC realm and wondering if your "rig" will be able to play game-X.

Heck, for all of the iterations that the PS2 went through it was always a PS2. It wasn't a PS2.5 or anything.

Re:Yeah, but ...

[shlepp]

A while back when the HD-DVD player came out i read an article about the drive having the capability and enough bandwidth with that USB cable to be able to play games if Microsoft wanted to, and HD-DVD is a lot of data being sent along that cable already when playing the movie. So it could be something that can happen, all they would have to do is release an update that makes it so, and by then i bet the HD-DVD drive would cost around $100 making it worth getting. But more than likely they would make the Hard Drive mandatory for certain games and ship games on 2 DVD's one is an install disc the other is the play disc and the space problem is solved.

Re:Yeah, but ...

[kannibal_klown]

A while back when the HD-DVD player came out i read an article about the drive having the capability and enough bandwidth with that USB cable to be able to play games if Microsoft wanted to, and HD-DVD is a lot of data being sent along that cable already when playing the movie. So it could be something that can happen, all they would have to do is release an update that makes it so, and by then i bet the HD-DVD drive would cost around $100 making it worth getting. But more than likely they would make the Hard Drive mandatory for certain games and ship games on 2 DVD's one is an install disc the other is the play disc and the space problem is solved.

I'm not talking about the technical end. It's obviously a possibility to do it, by integrating into new consoles and/or possibly a firmware update to current external HD-DVD units.

As I stated in my post, it becomes a logistical problem that contradicts the benefit of consoles. While not the only benefit, one thing that's a big win for consoles is you can just pick up a game and play it. A PS2 game plays on a PS2, PS2-Slim, etc. A Gamecube game plays on all Gamecubes (orange, platinum, purple, etc). No hastle, just pick and buy.

Unlike a computer where you have to know "will my computer play this game?" Do I have the right hardware? Is it fast enough? etc.

If they allow for HD-DVD games then the average user will have to figure out if game X plays on their nephew's console. It becomes a question of "will it work?" a complicates the issue. People not knowing if their relative has the right component, trying to figure out if it will work, or just buying incompatible games for the holidays. And console makers are trying not to do that.

Mine hasn't broken down.

[DanielJosphXhan]

My PS2 still functions well. But of course I'm a sample size of 1, so that doesn't mean much.

What I came here to say is that this can't be anything but a good thing. Why should everyone rush out to buy a new console every four years or so? If the PS1/PS2/PS3 and X-Box/X-Box 360 aren't going to change their strategy and market segment at all (like Nintendo has, in handhelds and consoles), there's no great reason to get the latest and greatest.

Better graphics are impressive -- I've seen Halo 2 on the 360; it's gorgeous -- but are they really worth dropping $500 plus a bunch a bunch of money for new games? There's a large segment of the market that apparently seems to think so.

Microsoft is probably, though I hate to say it, making a wise move. Don't create an upgrade path that people don't need or necessarily want to follow unless it provides a clear feature advantage. This isn't the operating system market: you don't WANT to replace your console every four years, especially when you take a hit on each piece of hardware you sell.

Re:Mine hasn't broken down.

[fwarren]

Remember, Microsoft both

a) wants to eventually have a home media center thing where they get a slice of all games played and all ppv video you watch and all songs you download. They need to "upgrade" people from the 360 to that system or the next step in that direction.

b) They never get anything right till their third rev. The xbox 360/2 has a shot at being a decent unit by that measure.

Huh...

[nomessages]

It makes me wonder if MS intended the naming of the console to reflect the "entertainment" of continually passing your gorgebox back and forth, instead of the supposed games developed for it. Hell, my Dreamcast still works perfectly after almost ten years of no replacement/repairs. I just still wish it didn't have to die off so soon. Hum.

Different thinking, different situation.

[DanielJosphXhan]

Microsoft want to sell more operating system licenses to recoup their upfront cost and make a profit. Selling more copies does that. The upgrade treadmill is expensive for users, but extremely profitable for Microsoft.

Microsoft wants to sell fewer pieces of hardware because they make little or no or negative money on hardware. Extend the life of the console, sell more games without the drag of a new console on the horizon. It's simple economics. The upgrade treadmill in consoles is expensive for Microsoft, not just users. This is why they would like to extend the life of the hardware: the money is in the games.

If they chose to make money on the hardware, it would be different. If Microsoft had a monopoly in the console market, it would different.

Not true for Gears of War.

[Anonymous Coward]

I think Gears of War renders in the resolution you set for console output, because I've noticed framerate drops when I set the console's output to a higher setting like 1080.

The way it works is, the game gets to choose whatever resolution it wants for output. The hardware then scales it to the actual output size you have selected (for "free"). If it wants to, the game can take your selected output resolution into account when choosing how big its render target will be.

Or, the developer might want their game to always render to the same size (e.g. 720p) and just let the hardware scale it. We did this on our last game because it made it easier for us to guarantee 30 or 60 fps in graphics-intensive parts of the game. I think Bioshock does it that way too.

Easy enough

[Anonymous Coward]

should be easy enough to keep xbox360 going for 7 years or more:
xbox360 core
xbox360 full
xbox360 arcade
xbox360 family
xbox360 elite
-------------------
xbox360 v2.0
xbox360 hd
xbod360 ++
xbox360 sp3
xbox360 black
xbox360 gold
xbox360 platinum
xbox360 7
xbox360 dx11
xbox360 <fill in blank>

How about...

[davester666]

Microsoft Wants 360 To Be Profitable Now.
Microsoft Wants 360 To Crush The Competition.
Microsoft Wants 360 To Work Reliably For More Than A Couple Months In A Row.

?

Re:FIST SPORT!

[drinkypoo]

My slim PS2 just killed itself. My crime was using it to play DVDs with wacky copy protection stuff on them (they're very hard to back up.) So mostly I was playing originals anyway. I'm not buying another one. Thus I have a stack of some seven or eight PS2 games for sale. I think I shall put the money towards a USB to gameport interface for my PC so that I can use my F22 Pro and my R/C simulator controller with my legacy-free laptop :P

Just a Guess...

[WiseWeasel]

I'm going to guess "Final Fantasy"...

software not hardware

[tabby]

The thing that is keeping the ps2 alive is not that the hardware is awesome, but rather that developers are still writing games for it.

Consider that XNA just pushed the cost of creating XBox 360 titles (especially LiveArcade titles) down to only requiring a PC & talented people, not special dev hardware that you needed to be an approved developer to get.

Consider that MS is pimping the XBox360 out as a Media Center Extender too.

I can see this thing hanging around for some time... because of the software and services being pushed over it. Hardware is just a decoy for competitors to worry about.

Re:FIST SPORT!

[antek9]

And so, what do you suppose we do when drinkypoo starts trolling against Sony again, like so many times before? Better yet, in an article based on a funny Microsoft rep. quote? I say, we let it slide just as well.

I might have been trolled here; have a nice day anyway.

When have Microsoft statements counted?

[SuperKendall]

They've already stated there will be no HD-DVD games.

Well of course they have. But the reality of what they actually do is very different, with pressure growing from the PS3 and publishers of both systems to be able to use more storage media in games.

Even at launch, multi-platform publishers were complaining about the space on the DVD - you think that pressure is going to ease up over the next few years as consumers embrace HD?

The PS2 was trumped by computers long before that one started to fade.

Play God of War II and get back to me on that. Consoles have trumped computers for a number of years now. PC's are good in a few niche fields but as we can plainly see from PS2 numbers, there are few ways in which PC's have trumped consoles.

The fact that you used WILL doesn't mean your right.

No, I'd say they fact he understands the gaming market means he is right.

I will say there's a better chance of me being right then you being right.

I'd say the chance of that being correct is low. :-)

Re:When have Microsoft statements counted?

[Liquidrage]

Give me one of example of the Xbox 360 breaking it's own rules in 2 years? Oh, you got none. Shocking. Oh, what you got the Orange Box's achievements at best?

Next, God of War. Can you follow a conversation? It was clear on technical merits *he* was basic the 360 being outdated compared to PC's. Not on how good the game itself was. You can't cherry pick here. If the PS2 was trumped, and it *was* by PC's, and yet still was popular, the 360 can do the same thing.

Yeah Wii this Wii that. The 360's have sold well. Have a very good installed base. Have clearly won, for now at least, the exclusives title, and by their own admissions they want to keep it going for about the same amount of as the PS2 Nothing more. But then bias pricks come in chanting a bunch of anti-MS garbage. Sorry, it's not reality, it's your our stupidity.

Re:When have Microsoft statements counted?

[SuperKendall]

Give me one of example of the Xbox 360 breaking it's own rules in 2 years?

Well, as a rule consoles work without breaking. Zing!

Get off the fanboy hobby horse for a bit and walk a mile in the shoes of the average gamer. Someone interested in all the consoles, and PC gaming too.

Next, God of War. Can you follow a conversation? It was clear on technical merits *he* was basic the 360 being outdated compared to PC's.

Which if you'd played it realized held up well with modern games in terms of atmosphere and graphics and framerate - resolution being the only downside.

You see, I've played through other titles like Bioshock. Yes they look pretty but to my eyes God of War II was just as pretty, and actually had a little better gameplay. The nadr of gaming compared to the PS2? I'd say they are still neck in neck.

Yeah Wii this Wii that. The 360's have sold well. Have a very good installed base.

Good but not great, only tracking XBox sales. Where do they go with Halo flown the coop? What is going to take them to the next level? The whole story thread is about Microsoft wanting the 360 to be a seven year console - and yet we seem to be at a peak after two.

Have clearly won, for now at least

Clear winners! Well for now. Well, maybe it isn't clear. Well.

by their own admissions they want to keep it going for about the same amount of as the PS2 Nothing more.

But that alone is enough to ask, how will they do this? What aspect of the console can carry them for five more years? Live, as well done as it is, alone is not enough. Read other comments - people are buying multi-platform games on other systems so they can play multiplayer for free!

As for the rest, how can we take you seriously if you just call people stupid who disagree?

Re:When have Microsoft statements counted?

[Anonymous Coward]

Give me one of example of the Xbox 360 breaking it's own rules in 2 years? To hell with the last two years, Microsoft already has a fragmented platform, what about the future?
You really think it'll take six years before 1080p is standard?
You're fucking _NUTS_ if you think the 360 will survive on DVDs for six God-damned years. I can't emphasize that enough.

Have clearly won, for now at least What do you think this is, a fucking war? Nobody has WON retard. If you must see this as a battle, how brain damaged do you have to be to think it's over already?

Re:When have Microsoft statements counted?

[Liquidrage]

Are you mentally retarded? Didn't the "for now" part not cover the "for now" issue?

And yes, they can exist on just DVD for another several years on *that* console. Because even with that *limitation*, and with the fact that they haven't maxed out the system's capabilities, they are already making great games for it "right now".

While more capacity in the delivery medium would get used, with a nice established based people will continue to make games for it that don't suck. When do you see PC's game switching to only HD-DVD content, or Blu-Ray content? Obviously your stupid ass thinks it's next week. Because no way could a good game get delivered on DVD 4 years from now.

Re:When have Microsoft statements counted?

[Liquidrage]

God of War had nice graphics for it's time. Great for the PS2, not better then what was on the PC at the time with a decent system. And that was almost 3 years ago now. Which, being that it was almost 3 years ago, doesn't exactly make your point meaningful. And even if I ignored the issues without using God of War, it was still ONE game, the exception, not the norm. And it only bolsters my original point that even after the PC's had longed passed the PS2, the PS2 was a system that people made games for and people bought games for.

Clear winners! Well for now. Well, maybe it isn't clear. Well.
Actually it is clear. Because if you notice what I said was "won" was the developers and exclusive titles worth playing. And if you don't think that is clear, for right now, you're not paying attention. Because the 360 list is far superior then the PS3, and even the Wii, as far as titles go. Last year, last month, today, and what's coming in the next year.

But that alone is enough to ask, how will they do this?
Because they've sold over 12 million consoles and people will make games for a console with a large userbase. It's a simple question of their willingness to support it and not attempt to undermine with the release of a new system. Though, of course they could still release a new system and not undermine as long as they are still willing to supporting it (money, developers, promotion, etc...)
You say live isn't enough. Yet live is the most successful gaming community not counting MMORPG's ever. That heavily trumps you saying "Read other comments". You do know there are millions of people paying for XBL right? The 360 sales are the best of any of the big 3 outside of Japan, and that is mportant because many titles are marketed for either one or the other (of course some are both, but not all games are). And having more consoles in Europe and North America is a good position to be in. And combined they're almost even with the Wii, and far ahead of the PS3.

still a generation behind

[Ryunosuke]

I'm still buying Ps2 games I enjoy. It's amusing to sit here and read about the "next generation" of console trying to emulate the life spans of consoles when in fact I wish they'd just emulate the great games of the previous generation. Games sell me consoles, not the consoles themselves.