Upgrade Trick Still Present In Vista SP1

Chris Blanc writes "The new Service Pack 1 version of Windows Vista allows end users to purchase the 'upgrade edition' and install it on any PC — with no need to purchase the more expensive 'full edition.' The same behavior was present when Vista was originally released, but the fact that the trick wasn't removed from SP1 suggests that Microsoft executives approved the back door as a way to make the price of Vista more appealing to sophisticated buyers."

Comments

Alternatively

[adpsimpson]

I hear Ubuntu allows the full installation on any machine too...

Yeah, ok, I'll accept my -1, Troll.

Re:Alternatively

[Shakrai]

Yeah, ok, I'll accept my -1, Troll.

I wouldn't worry about that.

See, you've used the time honored Slashdot tradition of daring the moderators to mod you down. Such statements display a remarkable understanding of /. politics and show that you aren't afraid to go against the group. I'm hard pressed to think of a better way to ensure that your comment winds up with postive moderation -- short of a 4 digit UID, large cash contributions or being a former actor from Star Trek: The Next Generation ;)

Statements like "don't worry, I've got karma to burn" or "how long until I get modded down?" seem to be particularly effective ;)

Re:Alternatively

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok. Thanks for the tip, Shakrai. Hey, by the way, where did you get that name from? It sounds like a name that someone, who doesn't know what the fuck a bar of soap is, and who lives in some fucking 3rd world, cow-worshiping country, might use.

Well, this isn't a popular view either, but what the hell - you claim the disclaimer is so effective.

Ok, so how long until I get modded down?

Re:Alternatively

[MBGMorden]

Yep. "Go ahead, mod me down" works well to invoke a bit of sympathy and make others feel as though you're the underdog. It's the modern day equivalent of "I am no orator, as Brutus is;".

Re:Alternatively

[bcat24]

If only I hadn't just used my mod points, you'd be +1 Insightful by now. Oh well.

PS: I dare you guys to mod me down!

Re:Alternatively

[xtracto]

Or what about the guy with the signature stating that you should a write some sort of generalization about Americans...

Although I have never seen that work... lets see

All Americans come from the worst part of the continent.

Re:Alternatively

[dantezco]

I have to say, so does Fedora, and it seems to me that it is far better than *buntu.

Re:Alternatively

[MatthewAnderson]

I wish I had known about this before I expressed my desire to fight Uwe Boll. It was meant to be funny! *sigh* Now my karma is bad. :I

Sophisticated Buyers

[Enderandrew]

You're suggesting that sophisticated buyers are buying Vista.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[BSAtHome]

You must give them some slack for being optimistic. Sitting with a sour face does not help the bottom line, does it. Then again, a sophisticated /buyer/ is merely a consumer that has had its brain turned off by advertising spin.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[dynamicdesign]

Why do people constantly bash on Vista. It runs great on my computer and I have no problems with it. They probably didn't fix the upgrade trick because if you're buying their product then they still hold onto that part of the market. If you bash vista it's because you haven't used it, you're a slow slow learner, or you've used it but hate microsoft so much that you didn't actually give it a chance. To many people bash vista and they've never owned a copy, used a copy, and just go off what other people say that meet the above statement. Ignorance and blatant disregard for how something works seems to be what the internet is for in todays society.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[Enderandrew]

An honest question gets an honest answer.

Many tweaks to the UI cause you to jump through new hoops, slowing down productivity and causing me to get irate. An OS should enable me to use my computer, but slow me down.

Last week I was in a store purchasing a new computer for my step-dad, and all he needed was a web browser. I was damn tempted to give him a Linux box, and I'm not sure he'd notice. But we buy a new PC with Vista. He's used XP for years, but now he is totally lost. And the salesman was insisting 2 gigs of ram isn't enough for Vista, and that we needed a box with 4. Here is the crux of it. Vista offers no new features that will blow anyone away, yet the requirements are considerably higher.

Why slow down my machine with something that is going to cause nothing but trouble, when I get no benefit out of it?

There are people who cope reasonably well with Vista, but that isn't a reason to upgrade.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[Shakrai]

Why do people constantly bash on Vista. It runs great on my computer and I have no problems with it

I have to say that I've gotten it here at the office and I haven't noticed any major problems with it. Take that with a grain of salt though because my environment doesn't involve any legacy software.

It's actually remarkably usable once you disable the Vista UI and return it to a Windows 2000 look (I never used the XP UI either), though it is a resource pig. I'm using over a gig of ram right now just for Outlook, a few putty sessions, Pidgin and Firefox. On XP I'd still be under 512.

All that said, after having used it for two months I really don't see any compelling new feature or reason to upgrade from XP -- particularly when Vista will require much more powerful iron to run as fast. Factor that in with all of the anti-consumer "features" (*cough* protected media path *cough*) added in by Microsoft and I'd still have a hard time recommending it to anybody and I doubt I'll be upgrading at home for the foreseeable future.

Ignorance and blatant disregard for how something works seems to be what the internet is for in todays society

You must be new here ;) (sorry, couldn't resist)

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[k3vlar]

Ignorance and blatant disregard for how something works seems to be what the internet is for in todays society.

Yes, that is what the internet is for.

On a related note, I've used Vista, extensively, and don't like it. I don't bash it at every opportunity, but I do discourage its use for the following reasons

• - UAC is still the most aggravating privilege prompt I've used
• - Vista, compared with Ubuntu or OS X, runs extremely slowly
• - Control Panel, and other OS dialogs have been obfuscated and made extremely convoluted for no apparent reason
• - (Subjective) I dislike the Aero user interface

So there are three valid, and one personal reason that I prefer to use Ubuntu and OS X for my computing needs.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[sumdumass]

People constantly bashed on the Yugo and Chevrolet's Vega. It wasn't that they didn't go down the road perfectly for some people. It wasn't that they suited some people's need just fine, it was that they were unsafe and got people killed. Ironically, a relatively small amount of people like that but it happened.

Hence you ask why do people dump on vista when it works just fine for what you do. And the answer is because it has metaphorically killed others in ways that it shouldn't have. Why? Because they used their computers in perfectly legit ways that you don't seem to do.

It might have something to do with the Vista capable logo too. Where a computer was presented as having the ability to sufficiently run vista but in reality lacks a lot of what is neccesary. However, the people I know, have systems that meet the Vista specs well above the minimum and still have issues.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[pmbasehore]

Actually, I have used Vista--I have Home Premium running on one of my desktops. Before I say I don't like it, allow me to explain how I am educated enough to give an opinion on the subject.

If you bash vista it's because you haven't used it,
I believe I have shown that I do, indeed, use an OEM Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium on my Acer Aspire T180.

you're a slow slow learner
What does this have to do with anything? If I was a slow learner, I would complain about many pieces of software, not just Vista/Microsoft products.

or you've used it but hate microsoft so much that you didn't actually give it a chance.
This is really the only bit of your argument that could theoretically apply to me--so allow me to refute that. I see many improvements in Vista over XP and 2000. I will never deny that Vista is an improvement in some areas. My problem lies in two places:
1) The OS has been out for a year now and there are still major driver and software compatibility issues. An example: My ATI HD2600 video card driver was technically "supported" by Vista, but I had so many problems with the driver (including BSODs, screen lockups, and framerates in the single-digits) that I had to get an nVidia card. And before you say the problem was with my hardware, the card worked perfectly on my Linux installation on the same box.
2) It took Microsoft engineers 5 years to develop Vista? That is around twice their normal average development time of 2-3 years! What major improvements have we seen? The start menu was redesigned, UAC (need I say more), the GUI takes up a lot more memory and hard drive space for not much return in looks, and the "Explorer" file manager has copied so much from Apple's "Finder" that I expect to have a mouse with only one button!

Vista has improved, yes...but the improvements are not complex enough or adequate enough to warrant twice the development cycle on the same product. I am a Linux user. I am a Windows user. I am also a Mac user. Just because I use a certain operating system or software doesn't mean I love it and hate all others. If you don't like what people say about Vista, get over it. Use what software you want to use and let us do the same.

In the meantime, how about we get back to some decent conversation about the upgrade trick!

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[Moryath]

There were people who were perfectly happy with a Geo Metro, but I figured a car with better gas mileage AND more power than a go-kart engine was probably the way to go.

Next analogy, anyone?

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[Rary]

...though it is a resource pig. I'm using over a gig of ram right now just for Outlook, a few putty sessions, Pidgin and Firefox.

No it's not. It's actually making better use of your RAM.

In my opinion, Vista is only for sophisticated users. Sophisticated users (developers, for example) tend to already go for high end systems, and are willing (and able) to learn new stuff. Ordinary users are resistant to change. They don't want to learn a new way of doing things, and switching to Vista would force them to do that (as would switching to Linux or OSX). There are generally (though not always) pretty good reasons for Vista changing the way these things are done (ie. additional functionality), but those who refuse to learn something new should just stick with what they know.

All that said, after having used it for two months I really don't see any compelling new feature or reason to upgrade from XP...

I'm inclined to agree. If you're happy with XP, stick with it. But if you're out looking for a new computer, unlike most Slashdotters (who have likely never even tried Vista), I'd happily recommend getting one with Vista -- as long as the person I'm recommending it to is willing to put in the effort to learn something new.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[God of Lemmings]

People constantly bashed on the Yugo and Chevrolet's Vega. It wasn't that they didn't go down the road perfectly for some people. It wasn't that they suited some people's need just fine, it was that they were unsafe and got people killed. Its true! Vista killed my dog!

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[gallwapa]

You were listening to a salesman. What the hell did you expect?

2g is MORE than enough for Vista- WAY more.

If you look at Vista's internals, it DOES offer features to blow people away. Superfetch (which takes advantage of the extra RAM you may put in, assuming you decide to go to 64bit OS obviously) is a wonderful feature. Give it enough time to learn what to grab and you'll be very pleased with the results.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[madm0nk]

"...Outlook, a few putty sessions, Pidgin and Firefox. On XP I'd still be under 512." OK I'm sorry but I am gonna call bullshit on that. Right now this very second I am running 3 putty windows, firefox (with 2 tabs open), and I am using 560 mb of ram. I am wondering if Vista is really using that much more RAM than XP or is it that Vista made it so easy to get that information (the side bar, and the Task Manager in Vista tells you the % of Ram used unlike XP) and therefore more noticeable.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[PitaBred]

In response to your sig... "I don't do genocide, but I don't bash it"

Sometimes, there's a reason to come out against something. I purposely chose a highly hyperbolic example, but it's only to make a point. Sometimes you do need to speak out about something being bad... ignoring it will not make anything better, it will just reduce conflict, which means that nothing will improve.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[teflaime]

Why do people constantly bash on Vista Super invasive DRM.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[HeronBlademaster]

My Dell Inspiron 6400 came with XP Home (which I wiped in favor of XP Pro). Six months after I bought it, I decided to give Vista a chance, and installed Vista Business. Between UAC, video driver issues, networking issues, and game compatibility issues, I decided it wasn't worth the frustration, and now I dual boot Gentoo and XP Pro.

XP and Gentoo are both much faster than Vista was (in terms of UI responsiveness, startup/shutdown time, etc).

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[Gutboy]

He can't figure out vista and all he uses is a web browser? He has other issues besides vista (and for your step-dad: Click the start button, then the Internet explorer icon on the top of the menu that pops up).

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[Anonymous Coward]

If you bash vista it's because you haven't used it, I believe I have shown that I do, indeed, use an OEM Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium on my Acer Aspire T180. You have also shown that you buy crap hardware (just kidding). I don't know if Acer's current Aspires are any good, but I don't think it's fair to judge Vista when it's preinstalled on a POS Packard Bell quality PC with a bunch of crapware on it.

1) The OS has been out for a year now and there are still major driver and software compatibility issues. An example: My ATI HD2600 video card driver was technically "supported" by Vista, but I had so many problems with the driver (including BSODs, screen lockups, and framerates in the single-digits) that I had to get an nVidia card. And before you say the problem was with my hardware, the card worked perfectly on my Linux installation on the same box. The problem was with your hardware vendor: ATI. You say your "HD2600" video card was supported "by Vista," but you are using Vista drivers that were written by ATI/AMD after Vista was released. (Vista RTM in November 2006, Radeon R600 launched in May 2007) The card worked "perfectly" in Linux because far fewer of its features are enabled in Linux and Linux's driver architecture has changed less Windows's.

Sure, Microsoft may deserve some blame for making a few changed to their driver architecture, but other video card makers have handled these changes without any noticable problems. In your case, ATI should have fixed the problems by now.

the "Explorer" file manager has copied so much from Apple's "Finder" that I expect to have a mouse with only one button! That's just pathetic.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[drsmithy]

Many tweaks to the UI cause you to jump through new hoops, slowing down productivity and causing me to get irate. An OS should enable me to use my computer, but slow me down.

Like what ?

Last week I was in a store purchasing a new computer for my step-dad, and all he needed was a web browser. I was damn tempted to give him a Linux box, and I'm not sure he'd notice. But we buy a new PC with Vista. He's used XP for years, but now he is totally lost.

Someone who is "lost" in Vista after using XP for years, is going to be vastly more "lost" using Linux (or OS X for that matter).

Seriously. The fundamental UI in Vista is still the same as Windows 95.

And the salesman was insisting 2 gigs of ram isn't enough for Vista, and that we needed a box with 4.

Of course he'd say that. He's on commission. 2 gigs is plenty.

Here is the crux of it. Vista offers no new features that will blow anyone away, yet the requirements are considerably higher.

One could make that same argument about just about every version of Windows since Windows 95 (and every version of every other OS from some time back in the '90s, with the exception of OS X since it was so late to the party).

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[Z34107]

First, your salesman was an idiot. My gaming rig runs Vista (I want DirectX 10 without hacks!), and I only have 2 GB of memory.

Even games like Crysis are hard-pressed to use more than 2; 4 is just a waste of money unless you're doing video editing.

Vista runs just fine on less, too. I ran Beta 2 and RC1 on my old machine - 3.4GHz Pentium 4, 1 GB of RAM, and a nVidia GeForce 6800. Aero ran smoothly, my Office 2007 beta ran smoothly, and I could even play some games! (The beta was rather unstable on my machine.)

But... how couldn't your step-dad, who's only using a web browser, figure out Vista? The big "E" (or fox picture, for the discriminating luddite) are in the same spot. It's not like the 2D desktop has changed much since Windows 95.

Other than DirectX 10, there are a lot of quirks in Vista that I absolutely love. In XP, manually typing in a path into a "Save As" dialog will obliterate the original filename. (I.e., overwriting longfilename.torrent with e:\data\.torrents will obliterate the original longfilename.torrent. If you want to keep the original filename, you have to copy-paste it, or click everywhere to navigate instead of typing in the path by hand.) In Vista, the original filename will appear again after typing in a save path. There's also a little search filter in Explorer and in Save dialogs, and stacks are nifty. (Right click -> stack by -> type will put all of the PDFs in a directory and subdirectories into one "stack" icon.)

But... other people may not care, and the hardware requirements are definitely higher if you want the shiny. But, the start menu's round, and right-click desktop -> personalize brings up a slightly different menu. It's not like, say, switching to Linux, where all of your buttons are really different.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[Anonymous Coward]

So there are three valid, and one personal reason that I prefer to use Ubuntu and OS X for my computing needs. Actually what you have are three subjective and one quantifyable complaint (the speed). Aggravating and convoluted are also subjective terms. Even if 95% of people agree, there's still another view.

I would also take issue with the speed, as a clean install of Vista on a 1.8Ghz machine "feels" just as fast to me as OSX on a 2.4 Ghz machine. Running benchmarking suites is a different point.

For my part, it is the usability changes in Vista that have put me off. Aero as an appearance can be deactivated, but there are core features of the Explorer GUI that have been revamped with no way to revert to the XP functionality that I am experienced and intuitive with. Much like Office 2007, they focused more on change than improvement.

As for "sophisticated" buyers, I think the accurate term would be "begrudging and cheap". Me, I paid $20 for an academic license / very pretty coaster.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[binaryspiral]

OK I'm sorry but I am gonna call bullshit on that. Right now this very second I am running 3 putty windows, firefox (with 2 tabs open), and I am using 560 mb of ram. I am wondering if Vista is really using that much more RAM than XP or is it that Vista made it so easy to get that information (the side bar, and the Task Manager in Vista tells you the % of Ram used unlike XP) and therefore more noticeable.

No, he's pretty much accurate. But it's no big secret Vista was rewritten to cache more data in ram and so appears to be using more memory. I stopped looking at memory usage along time ago... when I'm on a machine that is paging a lot, then it's time to pay attention.

On Vista, though, you do get an easy to read resource monitor that will give you much more information about the resources you're using. I like the memory section that gives you percentage of physical memory in use and the number of hard faults per second.

You can drill down for more detail, but those two items are pretty much all I need for most performance investigations.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[drsmithy]

Super invasive DRM.

Not at all. "DRM" is quite possibly the biggest non-argument about Vista there is (with the possible exception of "hardware requirements").

It boils down to two possible scenarios:
1. You don't have DRM-encumbered media. Therefore the DRM is irrelevant.
2. You do have DRM-encumbered media. Vista lets you watch it. Vista doesn't impose any more restrictions than any other player. Therefore, the DRM support is good, because the alternative is either a degraded output or none at all.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[squallbsr]

I'd happily recommend getting one with Vista -- as long as the person I'm recommending it to is willing to put in the effort to learn something new.

I'd rather recommend they buy a Mac or install Linux, because at this point they need to learn a new interface, they may as well opt for something much better.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[vimh42]

I haven't found Vista to be particularly sluggish with just two gigs of memory. The sales clerks were handing you a line. The thing that disgusts me is the file copy speed. What's especially bad is the included zip utility. This is with SP1. It got better, but not by much. I don't think more ram is going to fix any of the issues Vista has. I'm curios how XP would run on that machine. I'm guessing for just email and such, I wouldn't notice the difference.

Now I also have Xubuntu (8.04 beta) on the machine. The general responsiveness of the system is a bit higher. I suggest waiting for the release version of 8.04 (using the desktop of your preference) and installing using the wubi installer so you don't muck any partitioning up. That way you can give your step dad a taste of linux and if he doesn't like it, you've lost nothing but a little time.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[NotBorg]

Its true! Vista killed my dog!

awww man... that one was my favorite! Guess you'll have to use Clippy... yet another reason not to use Vista.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[Anonymous Coward]

You were listening to a salesman. What the hell did you expect?

2g is MORE than enough for Vista- WAY more. In my experience (limited, fwiw) 2gb is not enough for Vista. The max for 32-bit (3gb) is still not enough.

If you look at Vista's internals, it DOES offer features to blow people away. Superfetch (which takes advantage of the extra RAM you may put in, assuming you decide to go to 64bit OS obviously) is a wonderful feature. Give it enough time to learn what to grab and you'll be very pleased with the results. I'd prefer an operating system that doesn't have to "learn" how to manage things properly. I'd prefer it to "just work". Ubuntu does this. I have 1.5gb installed and even after several weeks of heavy use, the only times it ever touches swap is if I fire up VMWare and run a few instances of XP.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[plague3106]

Sorry, but if your dad is "totally lost" because window boards now display differently, I can only think he's extraordinarly retarded. If all he needs is a browser, he's unlikely to need to find where some things have moved.. say Network Connections.

As far as new features go, there are plenty, but not all are drawn on the screen. It is more secure, printing is much more reliable, the search integrated into the start menu actually works really well, just to name a few. I've been using Vista for a while now, and its not any slower than XP was (although I never settle for that crap onboard video).

As for the salesman.. they're going to lie to you to sell you something. Wow, shocker. I hate to tell you, that kind of thing isn't limited to the computer world.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[Shakrai]

OK I'm sorry but I am gonna call bullshit on that

Call it all you want. This exact same configuration on my XP machine would have been under 512 megs -- typically around 400-450. FF is the biggest memory pig of the programs I have running (although Office 2007's programs aren't that far behind) but even with FF I've found XP to be quite usable with 512MB of ram. 1GB is obviously ideal but you can get away with 512 for normal surfing/productivity tasks.

the side bar, and the Task Manager in Vista tells you the % of Ram used unlike XP

Uhh, the task manager in XP also told you how much RAM you were using, although I honestly can't recall if it gave you the %'age or not (not near an XP machine right now to check).

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[Donniedarkness]

I understand that it's using my ram more effectively, but the fact that my applications respond more slowly on Vista (than XP and, of course, Ubuntu) is still a problem.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[matazar]

Better in your opinion. Some users have trouble with the over simplification. As a friend of mine recently found out.

Vista does run fine, if you know how to use a computer. Though yes, if you want something different, buy a PC and go with linux.

I can't justify telling someone to spend the extra few hundred on something that "looks pretty", when a PC with Linux will do just as good.

Though in reality I agree with Rary and am glad to see I'm not the only one not joining in in the constant Microsoft Bashing.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[matazar]

UAC can easily be disabled. I also see why it's there, but I understand people frustration with it. I don't think it was implemented well.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[Orion Blastar]

Actually a lot of Vista PCs and laptops use 384M or more system RAM for video RAM leaving only 1.6G or less of free available RAM. Of course you can allocate the system RAM to as much or little video RAM in BIOS as you want but you really need like 386M or 512M of video RAM to get the full effects of Vista and get Vista games and graphic programs to work the best.

Mac OSX has almost the same requirements as Vista, it runs better in 4G than 2G and needs a lot of memory for the graphic effects.

Sadly some PCs and laptops can only go up to 3G but Vista does allow you to use USB devices for simulating RAM by using the free space on those USB devices as system RAM.

Also you will want more RAM to allocate to virtual machines to run VirtualPC 2007 and XP in a virtual machine with at least 512M to 1G allocated to system RAM for the virtual machine. That is to run software that Vista won't run in the XP virtual machine. Mac OSX also needs that for XP virtual machines like Parallels.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[ais523]

As far as I can tell, the reason Vista is not catching on is this: apart from easily dismissable eye-candy, the improvements that Vista have over XP (and there are improvements) are the sort of thing that only appeals to the comparatively small number of people who switched several years ago to some version of Linux (I don't think Vista is a good OS for the sort of people who would switch to a Mac instead). Windows XP sold well because it was like Windows, and it was sufficiently similar to what Windows users wanted, and sufficiently aggressively marketed, that it became a standard amongst those people. Microsoft are now presumably trying to shift their focus to win back people from Linux (probably businesses rather than home users); but that isn't likely to do all that well, because they don't really understand the market that Linux has captured, and in the meantime they're losing their (currently much larger) core market to older versions of Windows, and to a smaller extent to Apple. So this is probably an issue of complacency about the core market. Meanwhile, Linux distributions are catching on by becoming more 'mainstream', and Apple is gaining from Microsoft's disregard for its core users, whilst not losing many of their fans. (Other operating systems amount to a sufficiently small fraction that they aren't particularly relevant to the argument, but I'm sure they could be factored in too.)

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[pcgabe]

Control Panel, and other OS dialogs have been obfuscated and made extremely convoluted for no apparent reason

I disagree, although I thought the exact same thing at first.

Add/Remove Programs, for example is now under Programs (I think; I'm in Ubuntu now). So, instead of being at the beginning of the list, it's near the end. I was frustrated the first time I had to use it and I couldn't find it.

But...think about it. Or I should say, think about it as if you were NOT good with computers. If you are barely computer literate, and you're looking for the setting that affects Programs, are you going to look under A or P? The verb or the noun? I think the new ordering is actually more intuitive than the old, it's just that we're all accustomed to the old.

I also think Vista in general is getting a bit of a bum rap. It's not that Vista is bad per se, but the scaled down versions are ... scaled down. They feel incomplete because they are.

My new laptop came with Home. It was crap, and I hated it. I got Business from my school (MSDNAA, so... free). It was crap, and I hated it. And then someone gave me Ultimate. And because it was free, and because I was going to reformat that drive again anyway, I thought I'd try it (curse my insatiable curiousity...).

And actually, it's not too bad. In fact, I think that if they only had Ultimate, Vista wouldn't be getting so much flak. Ultimate is the only complete version of Vista. For me, Ultimate is the only real version of Vista.

And it does work better than XP (gasp!) for some things. Memory management, for one. Especially if you have more than 3 gigs of system RAM.

Yes, UAC is annoying and poorly thought out. Yes, Aero is unnecessary and a resource hog.

Is XP better for low end systems? Yes.
Is Ubuntu better for just about every system? Yes. (This is what I use 60% of the time)

Is Vista actually OK for high-end systems? ....yes. Is it perfect? No.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[svvampy]

My understanding was that the pervasive DRM in Vista has unacceptable impact on non-DRM aspects of the operating system. Such as throttling network traffic whilst playing unencumbered MP3s.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[Omestes]

I really don't see any compelling new feature or reason to upgrade from XP

Thats the crux of my issue too. I got a decent deal on a laptop with Vista pre-installed, my original plan was to throw my old XPpro installation onto it and use it as my travel computer (got a perfectly functional Mac as my main). But Vista grew on me, so it wasn't worth migrating back to XP. It also wouldn't be worth it to me to go upgrade my XP box to Vista. Meaning I'm ambivalent.

I don't use the laptop for gaming, so 3 gigs of RAM has been sufficient. I can run Aero with no decrease in performance, even with a slew of applications open. The Mac trained me not to care about free RAM, so I don't really mind how high its profile is (right now at 1.14GB).

I've actually been surprised that I use it as much as my Mac, since for some reason the Intel change is still treating me badly. Though I still prefer the OS X interface over Aero, Aero is pretty nice looking, and pretty easy to use.

I have no real large complaints, especially after they fix the annoying copy time bug. But it isn't really worth spending money, and install time on.

Before someone calls me a fanboy let me restate that my main box is a Mac. I see windows as the mediocre (but funtional) medium between the simplicity and just-works-ishness of OS X, and the power and flexibility of *nix. All have their strengths and weaknesses, its a matter of preference, learning, and style, all subjective.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[Anonymous Coward]

If you bash vista it's because you haven't used it, you're a slow slow learner, or you've used it but hate microsoft so much that you didn't actually give it a chance. Right.... because Vista is perfect and there are no legitimate complaints about it. That's what you're trying to say? Maybe you're just a rather simple user who doesn't encounter the problems that others do. They are numerous, and some are even acknowledged by Microsoft.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[Danse]

Why do people constantly bash on Vista. It runs great on my computer and I have no problems with it. Maybe because it doesn't really offer us any compelling reason to upgrade from XP. Microsoft has finally managed to make XP work fairly well and then they release Vista which doesn't really add much that is useful, but does add a lot of incompatibilities, all the problems created by immature drivers, greater hardware requirements, and some annoying features. What exactly is the incentive to "upgrade" to Vista?

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[Omestes]

I agree with you points, sans the subjective one. But you can turn of UAC, and I think anyone here on /. would be insane not to, since it is the most obnoxious feature in an OS as long as I can remember, and serves no purpose for anyone with minor experience with computers.

I generally agree with the speed. On computers with similar specs Vista is going to lose every time. Though OS X isn't doing so well right now either. My girlfriend has a MacBook pro with almost the same specs as my Vista laptop (a little less ram) and it has a hard time multi-tasking and shifting windows. My old G4 was more snappy, ironically. Ubuntu though is nice, when the new version comes out of beta I'm going to try the new dual boot tactic. I have tons of respect for Ubuntu.

The new control panel is dumb. Its the opposite of good UI design.

I dig Aero, personally. It isn't as pretty as OS X, but it still looks much better than the odd plastic look of XP, and the ugly 80's-esque grey boxes of 95-98-2k. Yes, geeks will yell if I say I like pretty (pretty AND functional, to be exact), but I have to stare at it for 8+ hours a day, it might as well be nice to look at. But that is completely subjective, and doesn't make good analysis, as you state.

Vista is better than I thought it would be, but not as good as it could be.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[Curtman]

If you bash vista it's because you haven't used it, you're a slow slow learner, or you've used it but hate microsoft so much that you didn't actually give it a chance.

Or maybe you are just so amazed that a driver doesn't exist for a popular card like the Soundblaster Live, that you decide Vista is a piece of shit and not worthy of being installed.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[aaron.axvig]

Your post is full of BS.

you really need like 386M or 512M of video RAM to get the full effects of Vista and get Vista games

No. I play HL:2 on a system with 1GB of RAM and a 256MB video card. Runs fine. Vista runs fine of my laptop with integrated graphics from 2005. No Aero glass, but I have it dropped even further down to W2000 style. Vista runs WELL on slow machines with a simple theme.

Mac OSX has almost the same requirements as Vista, it runs better in 4G than 2G and needs a lot of memory for the graphic effects.

This may be true, but I will suggest that 2GB is not really needed for Vista. I have a gaming computer with 1GB and it is FAST. I think the main reason people computers are slow is the anti-virus or anti-spyware software they have running all the time, 2, or 3, or even 4 programs at a time. All those programs scanning every file that is accessed--is it any wonder they are slow?

Also you will want more RAM to allocate to virtual machines to run VirtualPC 2007 and XP in a virtual machine with at least 512M to 1G allocated to system RAM for the virtual machine. That is to run software that Vista won't run in the XP virtual machine.

I'm not sure what you are babbling about VPC for...please name the software that won't run in Vista. There are VERY few incompatible mainstream programs. Also, there is no XP virtual machine in Vista. Lots of the APIs are backwards compatible so that all the calls programs need are still there.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[Mryll]

Also, simply being able to play back content doesn't meet the goals of all users.

Some people might have an interest in re-mixing various pieces of content for their own personal use. Burying streams underneath DRM locks, or hiding them by default when playing non-DRM content for the convenience and security of DRM material may inhibit reasonable use of information. I don't really know the extent of such operation within Vista, if any. But I don't want to pay that kind of price for the DRM war.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[Jherek Carnelian]

"DRM" is quite possibly the biggest non-argument about Vista there is I disagree. The DRM problem with vista is so bad it that it even affects all linux distributions.
The problem is that in order to comply with vista's DRM requirements, hardware has to include support for DRM (aka 'protected path'). That's a cost that everyone bears when they buy new hardware, even if they don't want to run vista.

But it gets worse. In order to minimize the cost of the extra DRM circuitry, ATI (and presumably nvidia) integrated the DRM with the video decode acceleration. The end result ist that ATI is releasing truly Free drivers for Linux that include everything but video decode acceleration.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[drsmithy]

My understanding was that the pervasive DRM in Vista has unacceptable impact on non-DRM aspects of the operating system. Such as throttling network traffic whilst playing unencumbered MP3s.

Your understanding is wrong.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[drsmithy]

Some people might have an interest in re-mixing various pieces of content for their own personal use.

Then they should avoid content where the copyright holder stops them from doing this via DRM.

Burying streams underneath DRM locks, or hiding them by default when playing non-DRM content for the convenience and security of DRM material may inhibit reasonable use of information. I don't really know the extent of such operation within Vista, if any. But I don't want to pay that kind of price for the DRM war.

Since you don't know, why are you commenting ?

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[drsmithy]

I disagree. The DRM problem with vista is so bad it that it even affects all linux distributions.

Your "problems" have nothing to do with Vista, and everything to do with media companies DRM-encumbering their content.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[JackieBrown]

By supporting it, it makes DRM content more frequent.

I'm sorry to argue, but that is a "bad" thing.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[onefriedrice]

I would have recommended Linux in your situation. Your stepdad would definitely have noticed a difference, but it would have been cheaper and he obviously noticed a difference in Vista anyway. I'm assuming you're the "geek" of the family to whom people go when buying new computers, etc, so I'm surprised you listened to a salesman trying to get you to buy more than you needed when you should have been smart enough to realize that 2G is sufficient for casual web browsing.

It's very true (IMO) that Vista adds no important benefits over its predecessor, but seriously... over 2G for web browsing? 2G is all I have on my Windows dev machine and we use that for a lot more than web browsing. No problem.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[syousef]

In my opinion, Vista is only for sophisticated users. Sophisticated users (developers, for example) tend to already go for high end systems, and are willing (and able) to learn new stuff. Ordinary users are resistant to change.

That's simply complete rubbish. I'm a developer. I run several machines at home and in a team of developers people often come to me for advice on hardware and OS configuration. I've run Linux in the past but haven't for some time because it doesn't run the applications I use most, where WIndows does. I do not like learning new ways of doing things just for the sake of it. I hate icons and menu options moving around. It's wasteful and stupid re-learning that. What I love is finding a new product that gives me a new capability when I learn it. I don't want to re-learn the basics when I could be spending my time learning cool new features that I actually want to use. If it ain't broke, leave it alone for goodness sake.

Now that said I think there's plenty that IS broken on XP. Why do we still need tools like robocopy? Everything I can do there (and particularly resumable file copy!!!) should be possible in Explorer by now. It's 2008 for goodness sake. What does Vista give me instead? A new explorer that's just as useless with buggy behaviour in a simple file copy that causes it to hang. That's not cool or new or interesting or innovative. It's just a waste of my time and I resent it. I don't need my file explorer to look pretty. I don't need distracting transparency in my windows and I don't need lame special effects on my desktop. I also don't need features that actually prevent me from doing things because I MIGHT be violating a copyright. Nor do I need yet another driver model when the old one was no worse than the new but a hell of a lot more mature.

So don't tar all "sophisticated" users or developers with the same brush. Just because you like to tinker and play doesn't mean we all don't have anything better to do. Some of us learn something new when there's an actual benefit to doing so.

As for Vista making better use of your RAM, that might be how the technology was written but it's not very good at doing so from an end user's perspective. If making better use of your RAM means slowing down the machine that kinda defeats the purpose. In any case unless you're running 64bit Windows (XP or Vista, doesn't matter which) a sophisticated user is stuck with under 4GB.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[Mryll]

Some people might have an interest in re-mixing various pieces of content for their own personal use.

        Then they should avoid content where the copyright holder stops them from doing this via DRM.

I agree with avoiding the use of material that is DRM encumbered where it does not suit one's needs. That is indeed how I operate. I have no interest in any currently offered encumbered material. I buy material I like at the highest unencumbered quality reasonably and economically available and then play with it as I wish for my own personal use.

I haven't played with Vista yet, but I'm not naive. It was well known that this sort of stream protection was desired by Microsoft as a core feature of the operating system, beyond the control of the user. I know that they implemented something along those lines with the PVP stuff. What I do not know is the extent to which access to existing non-DRM material is hindered, nor what Microsoft's attitude toward things might be in a few years with the locks more usable. Perhaps they decide that ripping an existing Audio CD is too likely to involve a copyright violation, and should be prohibited. They're moving dangerously close to enforcing the rights of copyright holders in dubious legal situations. I don't want it. Don't need their grubby paws on my output streams. Particularly when I have no use for DRM encumbered content.

I commented because the parent poster implied that simple playback of content is all that a user should desire or require. I expect to be able to be more with my data. Why the hell should Microsoft or a content holder be at all involved with the way I choose to manipulate data between my PC and my eyes/ears, for any of a million presumably legal uses of the data. If I did have an encumbered piece of music, I have an "analog" right (capability?) to use any equalizer to manipulate the data presentation to my own ears. That "right" apparently does not extend to the digital realm in Microsoft's view. It is a permission to be requested. I don't feel that I need to request permission from Microsoft when I am obeying the law.

People should consider whether or not their "fair use" rights for content are satisfied by simple playback capability. Then again, I consider the DMCA unconstitutional because of the curtailing of existing constitutionally established limits on fair use. My opinion doesn't hold a lot of weight...

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[Enderandrew]

First off, I can't believe anyone on /. is recommending IE.

Secondly, yes, the start menu operates differently. That alone threw him for a loop. There are plenty of users who flip out when items are relocated, or operate slightly differently from what they are used to.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[Enderandrew]

Like what ? Where do I begin? UAC, for one. Deleting a shortcut shouldn't ask me to approve three times. I have to move over and scroll within a start menu, and then click on folders instead of mousing over. Dialogs, control panel extensions, and options are nested and hidden all over the place, making me take extra steps here and there. Plenty of people have documented the list of issues, and usability studies have shown that people are less productive since the UI slows them down.

Someone who is "lost" in Vista after using XP for years, is going to be vastly more "lost" using Linux (or OS X for that matter). Sadly, this is why I didn't just give him an openSUSE box. Upfront I'd spend more time getting him comfortable with the Linux box, but in the long run I'll likely support his Windows box more.

Seriously. The fundamental UI in Vista is still the same as Windows 95. Then you might as well suggest that KDE, Gnome, Win95, Vista, OS X, etc. all basically have the same fundamental UI. They use windows and you click on icons. Except that argument is overtly flawed. The UI has changed considerably over the years. Fire up NT 4, or 95 in a VM and use it for a bit. Largely, you'll know how since you've been using Windows for years, but you'll find that many shortcuts and interface elements you've come to rely on simply aren't there.

Of course he'd say that. He's on commission. 2 gigs is plenty. And when XP launched, 256 megs of ram was plenty! Yet I wouldn't try to run XP without a gig today. As service packs and such come out, requirements go up. Apps and patches require more resources. And 2 gigs isn't "plenty", it is adequate for Vista, especially if Aero is enabled. Plenty of people in this very thread have noted Vista using well over 1 gig of physical memory with just a few putty sessions and Firefox open. It isn't hard to break the 2 gig barrier.

One could make that same argument about just about every version of Windows since Windows 95 (and every version of every other OS from some time back in the '90s, with the exception of OS X since it was so late to the party). And I'd say you're wrong. I don't hate on MS. XP is the best iteration of Windows ever put out. I preferred DOS to 3.1. I loathed 95. 98 SE wasn't bad. ME was terrible. NT was terrible. 2000 was decent. XP after SP1 was great. Vista is terrible. Even the biggest Microsoft supporters agree, and Microsoft agrees, which is why they are rushing the next version of Windows.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[Enderandrew]

I assume you have Aero disabled? It is quite easy to go over 1 gig of memory in Vista with just Firefox.

DX10 doesn't really offer you much in visuals. Most games that offer DX10 also offer a DX9 mode that runs faster. I really don't get gaming on Vista, since every benchmark on the planet shows you get worse performance.

I've used Vista personally. I support it all the time. And I'd never once suggest that Vista is "smooth" with 1 gig of ram. It hiccups at even small tasks.

I have 4 gigs of ram in my box. I dual-boot Gentoo and Windows x64, and I have no trouble using up 4 gigs of ram without video editting. Given that Vista at start-up takes up double the resources of XP, you're asking for massive pagefile issues with 1 gig.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[Enderandrew]

I didn't. The salesman insisted we needed 4 gigs, and that we had to buy an Intel system. I had picked up a cheap AMD system, since my dad didn't need much. The salesmen kept insisting that AMD was terrible, but could find no actual reasoning for his claims. He just kept trying to push for up-selling. Then after we said "no" quite clearly on the extended warranty three times, he still insisted on explaining how necessary it was. He'd be very remiss if he didn't fully explain how very much we really needed it, and how we'd regret not getting it.

I wanted to punch him in the throat.

And 9 times out of ten, I'd just talk my father into letting me build him a rig, but he didn't want to wait a few days for me to order parts from NewEgg. Plus, all my father knows are brand names. If it doesn't say Dell or HP, then he can't trust it. If I built a rig, and he didn't see a brand name, he'd go nuts.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[Orion Blastar]

Visual BASIC 2002, 2003 for starters won't run on Vista. Visual BASIC 2005 needs SP1 to work.

Directsoft PLC software won't run on Vista either.

VMWare just upgraded its software to run on Vista, before that it locked Vista up.

Some software reports comctl32.dll is out of date on Windows Vista like MAME 0.56 and disables features as a result. I found that with many open source projects that use that control to be the case. But the Vista version of comctl32.dll has a newer version number than the one in XP.

Peer Guardian 2 doesn't support Vista yet. I wish it did.

There are more examples, but I don't want to waste my time on them. I'll instead just link to them and let you read them.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[walbourn]

It took Microsoft engineers 5 years to develop Vista?

This little bit of FUD has been floating around for some time, and basically the argument goes "I don't see 5 years of work here, ergo Vista sucks". It's true that Microsoft evangelists oversold "Longhorn" for a very long time, so the roots of the FUD do in fact go back to Redmond. However, this particular argument falls flat in the face of the facts. Windows Vista was not in development for 5 years. "Project Longhorn" went on for many years, but as was discussed in the press the "Longhorn reset" in 2004 is the true start date for the development of Windows Vista. Some technologies created for the original Longhorn project were put into Windows Vista, and it did carry on the codename, but it's not the same product at all. Windows Vista started from Windows Server 2003 SP1 in August 2004, and the final version was declared in time for the November 2006 release of the corporate SKUs. That's just over TWO years of develompent. Not FIVE+.

During those five years, Microsoft did have several major releases of Windows, but they came in the form of Service Packs rather than new products. Windows XP SP2 was the result of several years of security work and new security features. Windows Server 2003 SP1 / Windows XP Pro x64 Edition took a few years of work to get Windows running on x64, including many basic drivers that had to be rewritten for 64-bit native. Windows Vista includes the fruits of these efforts because the reset started with Server 2003 SP1.

Certainly the software industry is full of large software projects that ran amok. The original "Longhorn" project falls into this category. Windows Vista is not that product, and neither is Windows Server 2008. That "Longhorn" never shipped.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[YesIAmAScript]

People constantly bashed on the Yugo and Chevrolet's Vega. It wasn't that they didn't go down the road perfectly for some people. It wasn't that they suited some people's need just fine, it was that they were unsafe and got people killed. Ironically, a relatively small amount of people like that but it happened. You are mistaken about the Chevy Vega. You're seemingly thinking of the Ford Pinto. The Pinto had the gas tank in the wrong spot that could rupture and catch fire in a collision, killing those inside.

The Chevy Vega's problem was the aluminum engine block often had porosity problems, which meant the block could crack or lose compression. Either of these could lead to excessive fuel/oil consumption or the engine just flat out stopping. But having your engine stop running isn't actually terribly dangerous and doesn't generally lead to death.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[Lovat]

"On a related note, I've used Vista, extensively, and don't like it. I don't bash it at every opportunity, but I do discourage its use for the following reasons

- UAC is still the most aggravating privilege prompt I've used
- Vista, compared with Ubuntu or OS X, runs extremely slowly
- Control Panel, and other OS dialogs have been obfuscated and made extremely convoluted for no apparent reason
- (Subjective) I dislike the Aero user interface
So there are three valid, and one personal reason that I prefer to use Ubuntu and OS X for my computing needs."

#1 -> Disable UAC then.

Windows in many ways really is the opposite of what most people think Linux is. It's one big mess, rather than a bunch of different organized parts. It also requires you to disable things you want rather than enable things you want 90% of the time.

Personally, I find it faster to disable things than enable all the features I'm going to use, but when I go Linux I prefer to add each thing in manually in the vain hope for optimization.

#2 Going to have to call "hardware" on that one.

On my Inspiron 1501 (2GB RAM; AMD64 X2 Turion) I don't notice any more lag on one OS or the other for the most part. With Gentoo (just curious I swear!) AND Vista I had the occasional app that would soak up all my resources and slow my computer down. The OSes themselves were pretty fast.

Gentoo was a bit faster I think, but Vista is still as fast if not faster than Windows XP from my experience so far.

#3 May have to give it to you here. It's all still there, but not in the same lingo/layout as XP so again, you have to learn something new.

#4 Aero is a fun toy. If I'm not using the resouces I don't mind playing with it, but I actually prefer the Vista GUI (which IS different than Aero btw) to Vista's version of Windows 2000. Like you said, personal preference.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[aaron.axvig]

OK, you proved wrong one of my points.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[sumdumass]

I used The Chevy Vega as an example because it was one of the things that Ralph Nader railed against. Actually, now that you brought it up, it was the Corvair that Nader went against not the Vega. In fact, he is pretty much the reason it got pulled from production. But thanks for pointing me to this mistake.

Now that I think of it, we used to buy scraped Vegas in the mid 80's and swap the front ends into other cars because it offered better handling for less weight. Of course that was back when you could build real stout horsepower from production motors without having to spend the equivalent of a half a house's going price in the process and them the other half trying to drive it around.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[vuffi_raa]

People constantly bashed on the Yugo and Chevrolet's Vega. It wasn't that they didn't go down the road perfectly for some people. It wasn't that they suited some people's need just fine, it was that they were unsafe and got people killed. does that mean I shouldn't talk on my cellphone while I am using vista? at least you can't break the speed limit with it.......

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[Shakrai]

I can run Aero with no decrease in performance, even with a slew of applications open

I despise Aero. When I first saw it my first thought was that it was a lame attempt by Microsoft to look like Apple. When I actually got my hands on my own Vista machine the first thing I did was disable it and revert the machine back to the Windows 2000 UI. At least in that regard Vista is similar to XP -- the first thing I've always done with an XP machine is revert back to the classical Windows UI.

I guess I'm in the minority of people that care more about function than form.....

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[Z34107]

I had Aero enabled on my 3.4GHz box. (This was during the public beta, mind you, but the beta was a lot slower and more unstable.) Biggest thing with Aero is having a proper video card, not memory. (Not that gaming performance was great on a 3.4GHz with 1GB of RAM and an old video card... but the system booted fairly "quickly" and ran IE7 and my Office 2007 beta just fine.

Vista will expand to fill available memory - it caches recently opened files and programs to save a few disk seeks. Try launching Office, for example. Notice how long it takes. Close it, and immediately launch it again - there will be about nil loading times.

SP1 fixes a lot of the gaming performance problems with Vista. However, the worst benchmarks (PC Gamer, Maximum PC) showed a 10% performance drop in some framerates, which is about what they were whining about XP came out with it's "massive" Luna UI.

As for DX10 not offering much in visuals, I beg to differ. It costs me about 40fps to turn DX10 mode on which, yes, is ridiculous - but Crysis and Hellgate: London look completely different in DX10 mode. Not that you'd notice much from screenshots, but little things like motion blur and smoke effects are the reasons I bought an 8800 GTX on my gaming rig.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[Rary]

First of all, I didn't say that Vista was for all sophisticated users, and certainly not for all developers. I also said if you're happy with XP, stick with it. That applies to whatever OS you're currently using. What I was saying is that Vista is not for unsophisticated users.

I do not like learning new ways of doing things just for the sake of it... I don't want to re-learn the basics when I could be spending my time learning cool new features that I actually want to use.

That was kind of my point. A lot of what has changed in Vista that people complain about has changed because they've added "cool new features" that are actually useful. But most people don't even want to learn new things if it benefits them. They just want everything to stay the same.

So don't tar all "sophisticated" users or developers with the same brush. Just because you like to tinker and play doesn't mean we all don't have anything better to do. Some of us learn something new when there's an actual benefit to doing so.

Exactly what "brush" do you think I was trying to "tar" you with? I said that developers are willing to learn new stuff, and that the "new stuff" in Vista provides the benefit of additional functionality. You responded that you're willing to learn new stuff when there's a benefit to doing so. It sounds like we're saying the same thing, only you're attacking me for saying it.

I also don't need features that actually prevent me from doing things because I MIGHT be violating a copyright.

Oddly enough, I've never encountered anything of the sort. Sounds like SlashFUD.

As for Vista making better use of your RAM, that might be how the technology was written but it's not very good at doing so from an end user's perspective. If making better use of your RAM means slowing down the machine that kinda defeats the purpose.

Vista runs quite nicely on my laptop, a relatively moderate (by today's standards) 32-bit dual-core with 2 GB of RAM. If I want even better performance, I can turn off Aero. The simple fact is that once I took a few minutes (literally, just a few minutes) to familiarize myself with the basic changes in Vista, I found that I'm quite productive working with it. However, I would not expect my sister, who hates technology and has reluctantly learned the basics of using email in XP, to learn new ways of doing things, and I would therefore not recommend she switch.

I really don't understand what you're so upset about. If you don't want to use Vista, then don't.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[drsmithy]

I haven't played with Vista yet, but I'm not naive. It was well known that this sort of stream protection was desired by Microsoft as a core feature of the operating system, beyond the control of the user. I know that they implemented something along those lines with the PVP stuff. What I do not know is the extent to which access to existing non-DRM material is hindered, nor what Microsoft's attitude toward things might be in a few years with the locks more usable. Perhaps they decide that ripping an existing Audio CD is too likely to involve a copyright violation, and should be prohibited. They're moving dangerously close to enforcing the rights of copyright holders in dubious legal situations. I don't want it. Don't need their grubby paws on my output streams. Particularly when I have no use for DRM encumbered content.

Well, you can continue with baseless speculation, or you can actually learn about the sitaution and find out that DRM restrictions are only applied when an application requests them.

You can also continue with the paranoia if you want, but there's an utter lack of any sort of precedent for the scenario you are positing. Nor is there any rational argument in favour of it, given Microsoft has nothing to gain and a lot to lose from partaking in the behaviour you describe.

I commented because the parent poster implied that simple playback of content is all that a user should desire or require. I expect to be able to be more with my data. Why the hell should Microsoft or a content holder be at all involved with the way I choose to manipulate data between my PC and my eyes/ears, for any of a million presumably legal uses of the data. If I did have an encumbered piece of music, I have an "analog" right (capability?) to use any equalizer to manipulate the data presentation to my own ears. That "right" apparently does not extend to the digital realm in Microsoft's view. It is a permission to be requested. I don't feel that I need to request permission from Microsoft when I am obeying the law.

Stop blaming Microsoft for something they have essentially zero influence over. You don't "request" anything from them. Whether or not DRM allows or stops you from doing something with media you purchase is 100%, completely and utterly, in the hands of that media's publisher.

You are essentially arguing that the gunsmith is responsible if someone gets shot. They're not, and neither is Microsoft if someone decides to encumber their content with DRM.

Make no mistake. The only people who are responsible for DRM-encumbering are those releasing DRMed content. The companies making DVD and Blu-Ray players aren't the cause of DRM, and neither is Microsoft. You will never, ever defeat DRM by shooting the messenger.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[Omestes]

I guess I'm in the minority of people that care more about function than form.....

I care about both, but so far Aero hasn't really hurt the former. The second I find it hindering my usage its going away, but as stated it hasn't. Isn't all the placements the same in Vista no matter what GUI you use? The only thing that really changes is the look, and the bloated size of dwm.exe, so how am I sacrificing form for function?

  With Firefox (4 tabs), Photoshop CS3, notepad, and Pidgen open I still have 1.26GB free. I could still probably throw in a OpenOffice session before it even gets close to paging. These are generally the programs I use to get stuff done, so... Aero doesn't hurt function in my day-to-day usage.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[Mryll]

Thanks for a thought out reply. I could have done without the derision.

Well, you can continue with baseless speculation, or you can actually learn about the sitaution and find out that DRM restrictions are only applied when an application requests them.

It isn't baseless speculation that the locks are present. The system is one policy decision away from presumptive guilt for use of uncertified data. It's sort of like owning a car with a government-operated shutdown switch and their assurances that it will only be used to affect criminals. The principle is bothersome.

You can also continue with the paranoia if you want, but there's an utter lack of any sort of precedent for the scenario you are positing. Nor is there any rational argument in favour of it, given Microsoft has nothing to gain and a lot to lose from partaking in the behaviour you describe.

At the moment. For their sake, I hope Microsoft would not try to abuse their position for market control. Of course, they've never done any such things in the past and should be trusted at face presentation. Not... Forgive my "paranoia".

Stop blaming Microsoft for something they have essentially zero influence over. You don't "request" anything from them. Whether or not DRM allows or stops you from doing something with media you purchase is 100%, completely and utterly, in the hands of that media's publisher.

I don't fully agree. Practically, there is truth there, but I don't believe that any licensing agreement that eliminates constitutionally established fair-use rights is correctly legally enforceable. Microsoft has the right and ability to build whatever locks they feel like in their OS. It doesn't mean that I'm going to want to buy the OS. I won't be "scared" into using their OS because, oh my, it's the only way to play back XYZ encumbered content. As I said, I don't use encumbered content. There aren't enough other noteworthy improvements to the OS to make it attractive to me.

You are essentially arguing that the gunsmith is responsible if someone gets shot. They're not, and neither is Microsoft if someone decides to encumber their content with DRM.

The gunsmith is NOT responsible. But they do enable the facility of getting it done. Agreed this is a fact of life. People can use tools to many ends. I'm also sympathetic to content-holders and their concern over their own rights, in an environment where their rights are getting stepped all over.

I AM saying that I personally have little use for content that is so encumbered that it cannot be remixed or modified from a full fidelity copy in legal ways for my own personal use. That is probably unusual use compared to most consumers of artistic content. Given my interest in accessing things at this level, an OS like Vista which enforces policies on these sorts of areas is just not attractive to me.

Make no mistake. The only people who are responsible for DRM-encumbering are those releasing DRMed content. The companies making DVD and Blu-Ray players aren't the cause of DRM, and neither is Microsoft. You will never, ever defeat DRM by shooting the messenger.

I mostly agree, though I think that Microsoft's technologies legitimize the content-holder's practices, when they may in fact be legally unenforceable. I don't expect to see DRM "defeated". There may always be a place for it given the reluctance of the public to pay for anything that they feel they can get for free. But I'll vote with my dollars. I won't play with Vista until it truly offers me something that I want or feel I need. And I won't buy content that has been overly encumbered or squashed to a low quality. It's just not anything that I need...

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[Jherek Carnelian]

Your "problems" have nothing to do with Vista, and everything to do with media companies DRM-encumbering their content. Where did I say one word about media companies or even playback of DRM-encumbered media?

I think you completely failed to understand the point that being vista-compliant is a market necessity for most major hardware manufacturers and part of that compliance results in extra costs for people who don't care one whit about "DRM-encumbered media" on their vista systems or for vista at all.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[Anonymous Coward]

...though it is a resource pig. I'm using over a gig of ram right now just for Outlook, a few putty sessions, Pidgin and Firefox. No it's not. It's actually making better use of your RAM. Yes it is. If Vista was appearing to use more RAM because of caching (like Linux does -- it'll appear to use lots of RAM too), then you'd be able to start Vista on 256-512MB of RAM, forgo the caching but still have things work. You cannot, because it's a pig and needs 1GB just to boot, and 2GB to reasonably use.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[ek-sistence]

"I really don't see any compelling new feature or reason to upgrade from XP"

For whatever its worth, one improvement I've noticed in Vista is the Picture Gallery over the Picture and Fax Viewer. It allows you to do simple editing of pictures (crop, brightness, contrast, color temp, tint, saturation, red eye) without having to open a separate program.

I know, nothing terribly exciting... but when I'm using XP at work I find myself missing it a lot. It lets me do quite a bit, while also being quick and simple. It seems well designed. Dare I say such a thing about a Microsoft product?

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[LurkerXXX]

I think you are thinking of the Pinto, or the corvair. Not the Vega. The Vega had a reputation for being a crappy car (it was, I had one), but not for getting folks killed. The Vega was a relatively safe car for it's day.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[Merkwurdigkeit]

The Vega was no more dangerous than any other car of its era, and a heck of a lot safer than most. It had great balance, good handling, and really good brakes for its time. It just had a terrible engine design that started burning oil at about 10,000 miles when the pistons wore through the silicon surface of the cylinder walls and started eating the aluminum of the block. I still think it was a pretty nice little car, and once they got the bugs worked out (and sleeved the cylinders) in '75, it was a darned fine little economy car. So, naturally, GM killed it. They did the same for the Fiero - as soon as they got a V6 into it and made it a perfect little MR2 killer, they killed it as well.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[Anonymous Coward]

In my opinion, Vista is only for sophisticated users. Many would disagree with that opinion of yours. Microsoft included.

There are generally (though not always) pretty good reasons for Vista changing the way these things are done ... Your opinion. Many would disagree. Microsoft NOT included, obviously.

... unlike most Slashdotters (who have likely never even tried Vista) ... And this is where you manage to piss me off. Seriously.

I am sick and tired of the above so-called argument.

You have no basis for that statement. For example, I have tried Vista, and I dislike it vehemently, for a great many reasons, and I will never, ever, install it again, on any computers under my control.

And yes, I realize that I, alone, would not make up "most Slashdotters" but that's not the point. The point is that you have no idea whether those you're arguing with and/or referring to, have tried Vista or not. You've just grabbed that so-called argument out of thin air. Perhaps you've heard someone else use it. It doesn't make it fact.

To summarize: I have used Vista. I disliked it, for several reasons. I won't ever use it again.

Now take your shitty argument(s) back, and try to find new, and actual ones. Please.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[sumdumass]

Yea, it was the corvair I was thinking about. It is the one of the ones Ralph Nader railed on which pretty much ended up getting it pulled from production.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[Rary]

... unlike most Slashdotters (who have likely never even tried Vista) ...

And this is where you manage to piss me off. Seriously.

I am sick and tired of the above so-called argument.

You have no basis for that statement. For example, I have tried Vista, and I dislike it vehemently, for a great many reasons, and I will never, ever, install it again, on any computers under my control.

I do have a basis for that statement. I have had numerous discussions with people who tell me outright that they have not tried Vista, and proceed to tell me all the things that they dislike about it, entirely based on things they've read. Most of the time, my personal experience was many times better than all the horror stories I'd hear from these people. This experience was based on actually having given it a chance -- reluctantly, thanks to my own initial dislike of it which was also based purely on what I'd read.

Additionally, I've read countless posts here on Slashdot from people who state outright that they haven't used Vista, don't like it, and will never use it.

Most of what I've read about Vista is grossly exaggerated. Most of what I read on Slashdot is mindless regurgitation of those exaggerations.

I personally don't give a flying fuck whether or not you or anyone else likes Vista or ever intend to use it. I like it and will continue to use it. It has its problems, but it's actually a good OS. After a couple service packs, it will kick the living shit out of XP. What annoys me is the moronic blind hatred that people have for it. It's a fucking operating system. Calm the fuck down and get some perspective.

Now take your shitty argument(s) back, and try to find new, and actual ones. Please.

Why? You haven't actually refuted a single point I made. You simply stated that my opinion was my opinion. Well, duh.

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[Orion Blastar]

"No. I play HL:2 on a system with 1GB of RAM and a 256MB video card. Runs fine. Vista runs fine of my laptop with integrated graphics from 2005. No Aero glass, but I have it dropped even further down to W2000 style. Vista runs WELL on slow machines with a simple theme."

My Compaq 2580US Laptop had 1G of RAM and ran Vista like a dog. My new laptop has 386M of video RAM, 2G (1.6G free for the system RAM) and runs Civilization IV: Beyond the Sword slow, but not fast enough for my tastes. It slows down when I try to go to negotiations with other Civilizations and I wait for it to load the animated AI character I have to deal with. When I added an extra 1G memory stick, it ran a lot faster. HL2 is an older game, maybe that is why it works with less RAM?

"This may be true, but I will suggest that 2GB is not really needed for Vista. I have a gaming computer with 1GB and it is FAST. I think the main reason people computers are slow is the anti-virus or anti-spyware software they have running all the time, 2, or 3, or even 4 programs at a time. All those programs scanning every file that is accessed--is it any wonder they are slow?"

Vista and OSX are fully multitasking systems. Yes I really need programs running in the background and doing things. So do most other people. I got my email client loaded, my web browser, my programming tool, a game I am playing, and anti-virus and anti-spyware programs as well as a firewall running. Some people also run P2P files sharing programs, IM clients, and MP3 music players at the same time as well. 1G can't cut it for all of that. I may get an idea for my program, pause the video game, open the programming tool, write code, write a word document, write an email, and then go back to playing the game at home. I cannot just run one program at a time, I need several open at once. Maybe you don't multitask, but I do and so do a lot of people.

"I'm not sure what you are babbling about VPC for...please name the software that won't run in Vista. There are VERY few incompatible mainstream programs. Also, there is no XP virtual machine in Vista. Lots of the APIs are backwards compatible so that all the calls programs need are still there."

Not according to Microsoft not everything is backwards compatible with Vista Microsoft says to check your legacy software before trying to run it on Vista. Microsoft claims to have rewritten code in Vista that changes how APIs work, some things that were integers are now longs, and other data types used in API calls have changed as well. Many people are complaining about Vista not being backward compatible. But you seem to act as if Microsoft and these other people are somehow lying about that and Vista is 100% backwards compatible?

Re:Sophisticated Buyers

[Orion Blastar]

Actually I proved them all wrong but I was too busy to do all of them right away. I hope you didn't mind the delay, I had some work to get done and only answered one of your horribly wrong and misinformed points.

Repackaged shit

[segin]

Seems like a way to repackage the same pile of shit for less.

Re:Repackaged shit

[calebt3]

Would you prefer they repackage it for more, like the RIAA wants to do?

Re:Repackaged shit

[Anonymous Coward]

Kind of like how your posts automatically start at -1?

Re:Repackaged shit

[Anonymous Coward]

Off-Topic, Could you please give a source for the quote in your sig... a quick google search didn't turn up anything, and I'm curious to see what context it was given in.

Re:Repackaged shit

[Digi-John]

Oooh, ooh, I know, mod parent up, +5 RIAA Tie-in

Re:Repackaged shit

[benjj]

Try http://lkml.org/lkml/2006/4/26/216

Ahhh upgrade...

[SatanicPuppy]

I have a full version of Windows 95 lying around, and it has saved me quite a penny over the years.

It's definitely a scam; there is no reason why the "upgrade" should cost less, since it is identical to the full version and you can "upgrade" using an original disk that wasn't used to install the OS that's currently on the machine.

Re:Ahhh upgrade...

[headkase]

It's a loyalty ploy - agree or disagree. It's the same thing as one of those "free sub" Subway® cards. You walk in off the street and you pay full price but if you've been hanging around for a while you get a discount. All loyalty programs are like bribes too, "stick with us and you'll get a discount" instead of going over to the competition. Whether or not you should go to the competition is another discussion.

Re:Ahhh upgrade...

[Teflon_Jeff]

I don't need to upgrade, XP is already superior to Vista.

Re:Ahhh upgrade...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's definitely a scam; there is no reason why the "upgrade" should cost less, since it is identical to the full version and you can "upgrade" using an original disk that wasn't used to install the OS that's currently on the machine. No you can't.

FTA:

Ironically, the original release of Vista's upgrade edition was disappointing to many consumers. They'd been told by Microsoft that the Vista upgrade process would no longer accept the insertion of a disc containing an older version of Windows as proof that Vista was upgrading over a qualifying product.

Re:Ahhh upgrade...

[NotBorg]

It's a loyalty ploy

Don't do it! I have one of those special hole punchers... I punched up 5 holes in my Vista certificate of authenticity thinking I'd scam my way into a free side of Office.... nope WGA escorted me out of the store. How was I to know that they switched from bunnies to hearts!!??

Re:Ahhh upgrade...

[demachina]

You would have to be nearly insane to trash a perfectly good copy of Windows XP by "upgrading" it to Vista. This leads me to believe that the only reason anyone would buy a Vista "upgrade" box is if the customer doesn't have a copy of Windows installed and knows the "trick" for a new homebuilt machine for example. If Microsoft didn't do this, on purpose, they wouldn't sell any Vista "upgrades" at all and retailers would be pissed they were stuck with the worthless boxes on their shelves. So, I wager they did do this on purpose and counted on the Internet to widely disseminate the "trick".

I was looking at Dell's gaming machines on their website the other day. The computers I looked at defaulted to Vista but you can opt for Windows XP .... and pay $50 more. The burning question is does XP cost more because its outdated and its a pain for Dell to ship it or is Vista such a piece of crap that Windows XP commands a $50 premium over it. I wager gamers are willing to pay a premium for Windows XP at least up until there is a must have game that requires Vista and DirectX 10.

Or

[longacre]

the fact that the trick wasn't removed from SP1 suggests that Microsoft executives approved the back door as a way to make the price of Vista more appealing to sophisticated buyers.

Or maybe they're just idiots.

Re:Or

[moderatorrater]

Or maybe they just don't think it's worth the time and effort to block the people who can exploit the hole. After all, if someone's willing to exploit this hole, they're probably willing to pirate it some other way, so why not get the lesser amount and not spend precious development and qa time on a fix that could easily introduce more bugs?

Re:Or

[Anonymous Coward]

The same logic could be applied to DRM

Re:Or

[longacre]

Software companies have often overlooked bugs affecting user experience in favor of making sure no one can use said software without paying for it. For those who modded me "flamebait" I am not an Apple/Linux fanboi or MS hater, my comment just makes light of the fact that companies often make silly oversights.

Re:Or

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean like WGA?

Re:Or

[lasse_dk]

They assume the majority of their customers are honest and will only buy the upgrade if they are entitled to it.
They save time not developing a check for the previous version.
They are sure they will never have support questions on how to get the upgrade to work
They are sure that no honest paying costumers will have problems installing

Even if the upgrade trick didn't work

[anss123]

Can't you just install a pirated version of Windows XP? Seems simpler than going through the rather long Vista install prosses twice over.

Re:Even if the upgrade trick didn't work

[balthan]

Seems simpler than going through the rather long Vista install prosses twice over.

In my experience, Vista installs considerably quicker than XP.

Re:Even if the upgrade trick didn't work

[The MAZZTer]

In the original article about the trick, the author noted that a Vista install is quicker than an XP one. Microsoft reworked the install process for Vista with their new WIM format which is sorta like a traditional archive but it stores FILE ATTRIBUTES and NTFS ONLY METADATA so we should be excited about it I guess... anyways I would hope it wouldn't be slower, but then again I hoped Vista wouldn't be slower either...

Re:Even if the upgrade trick didn't work

[uchian]

You'd rather go over the rather long windows XP install process instead?

Re:Even if the upgrade trick didn't work

[anss123]

Vista was a good bit slower installing than XP on my comp. Vista has more data to install so I thought nothing of it, but it might just be me having a slow DVD player.

Re:Even if the upgrade trick didn't work

[dwye]

> Can't you just install a pirated version of Windows XP?

If I am going to install a pirated OS version, why wouldn't I use a pirated Win2000 version, instead? I used a (legitimate) copy at work for 4 years, without any problems, despite less memory than on today's cheap laptops and less disk than is on a $30 USB thumb drive.

WTF happened to /. ?

[MagicBox]

For a short time I thought it was really cool.

Sophistication

[imstanny]

but the fact that the trick wasn't removed from SP1 suggests that Microsoft executives approved the back door as a way to make the price of Vista more appealing to sophisticated buyers Dave: Excuse me, but the car you sold me is missing a gas tank. Salesman: Yes, we know. This is an upgradable model. We sell them to sophisticated buyers, hence the discount. Dave: So I can upgrade for free? Salesman: You're sophisticated, you'll figure it out. Dave: Well, what does it upgrade to? Salesman: All updated GPS maps can be downloaded directly from the dealer's website. Dave: Great! And what about the gas tank? Salesman: .................. Dave: Sir?!?!

Re:Sophistication

[Zakabog]

I don't think you get it, this is like a car dealer with two identical cars on the lot, one's an upgrade and costs half as much as the other but to legally buy it you need an older version of the same car. The thing is, the dealer isn't checking if you have the older car so you can buy the cheaper one and save on money.

Re:Sophistication

[Anonymous Coward]

How is this funny or relevant in anyway? This is a retarded post. Then again, almost every post in a Slashdot Microsoft discussion is retarded.

Re:Sophistication

[imstanny]

I don't think you get it, this is like a car dealer with two identical cars on the lot, one's an upgrade and costs half as much as the other but to legally buy it you need an older version of the same car. The thing is, the dealer isn't checking if you have the older car so you can buy the cheaper one and save on money. I DO get it. My point is, even with the 'free' upgrade, you're still getting Windows.

Re:Sophistication

[Add_Water]

Salesman: Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye

Re:Sophistication

[luder]

Huh? The windows were missing, too?

Re:Sophistication

[MarginalWatcher]

Look Dave, I can see you're really upset about this. I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill and think things over.

Re:Sophistication

[syousef]

The correct term is almost ready to drive (ARTD). It's the way model aircraft are sold. Almost Ready to Fly (ARTF or ARF) basically means it's ready after you glue it all together according to the instructions, install and engine and propeller, and install a radio receiver and servos to control the flight surfaces. It's almost ready to fly in the same way that a live cow is almost ready to eat.

Re:Sophistication

[rdebath]

The dealer is checking that you drove onto the lot with a similar version of the car. The 'problem' is that they let you have the discount if you drove onto the lot after taking a test drive in the car you want to buy!

Sophistication?

[redelm]

This logic is sound and it reveals that MS execs thing sophisticated users can be attracted to MS-Windows-Vista.

I would contend the more sophisticated the user, the further they are from attractable to Vista: the most sophisticated users do not use MS products, preferring Linux or *BSD. Less sophisticated users who use MS-Windows (with greater reluctance at greater sophistication) prefer different versions of MS-Windows -- 3.51 revered by those who still run it, 2001 cherished in spite of few updates, and XP clung to as a lifesaver.

Only masochists and reviewers migrate to Vista. Many peole suffer with it bundled.

Re:Sophistication?

[Pojut]

the most sophisticated users do not use MS products, preferring Linux or *BSD

Fuck you. My dad started teaching me about computers when I was only 5, and I have been huge into them ever since. The biggest, most important thing he taught me was this:

"Some people look down on others because of the operating system, brand of computer, or programming language of your choice. Whenever this happens, I want you to say "Fuck you" to them. Why? Because it doesn't matter what operating system, brand of computer, or programming language you use. As long as it enables you to get done what you need and want to get done, then use it. Whenever someone looks down on your for your technology choices, just picture them as a grumpy old man at a rich country club telling you that you arent good enough for their tee times. That's ok; you don't want to be around those kinds of people. Stay away from them."

I personally use a Linux/Windows combination...Linux for when I feel like messing around, Windows because it has far reaching hardware support and doesn't require nearly as much tweaking to get it how I want. Forgive me for blaspheming by not using Linux exclusively; just don't look down on people like me because we CHOOSE to use what works for us.

Re:Sophistication?

[redelm]

Why do you equate "less sophisticated" with any sort of depracation? It is a reflection of a state of knowledge, not any reflection of intelligence nor the propriety of that state of knowledge nor any moral failing. In general, less sophisticated is better because whatever task can be accomplished with less mental effort. MS-Windows certainly is appropriate for users with very simple requirements.

BTW, a "Fsck you" on any subject is functionally identical to a concession that you possess no further logical argument, and likely indicates you lack the grace or strength to stand by a personal perference and must instead verbally attack.

Re:Sophistication?

[3vi1]

Posting this to remove accidental moderation caused by middle mouse wheel. Arghh.

Re:Sophistication?

[Anonymous Coward]

I use plan9, you insensitive clod!

Re:Sophistication?

[berashith]

the most sophisticated users do not use MS products, preferring Linux or *BSD

Fuck you. My dad started teaching me about computers when I was only 5, and I have been huge into them ever since. Both years?
I will give you credit for being a 7 year old with great grammar, but your vocabulary can be cleaned up a bit.

Re:Sophistication?

[Anonymous Coward]

I would contend the more sophisticated the user, the further they are from attractable to Vista: the most sophisticated users do not use MS products, preferring Linux or *BSD.

When I was younger and more of a brat(err, "idealist") I might've agreed with you. But this is rubbish. I personally use all three of the systems you mention, though I use Linux and OpenBSD more frequently than Windows. The really advanced user (if he's not a zealot) will recognize that each one has merits apart from the others.

Re:Sophistication?

[Pojut]

Just following my dad's advice, nothing more.

To be fair, I agree with everything else that you said in your original post...that one line that I quoted really bothered me, so I decided to respond as such.

True, a fsck you prolly was unnecessary...but screw it, tomorrow is friday:-)

Re:Sophistication?

[introspekt.i]

Why do you equate "less sophisticated" with any sort of depracation? It is a reflection of a state of knowledge, not any reflect.... Why do you equate pedantery with intelligence? Given the context, his assumption is entirely appropriate.

Re:Sophistication?

[b1ad3runn3r]

The great techno-unwashed masses, eh you fucking elitist? There are different strokes for different folks. Now get the hell off my lawn.

Re:Sophistication?

[Anonymous Coward]

BTW, a "Fsck you" on any subject is functionally identical to a concession that you possess no further logical argument,...

It can be that. But it's also a way of saying "I've heard what you have to say a thousand times and in each of those thousand times that I engaged in debate it ended up with the other guy defaulting to "My OS is cooler than your OS." without ever [answering my points | acknowledging that it's a personal preference]. I no longer care to have the same argument over and over and over."

Re:Sophistication?

[Pojut]

Actually no, it's been 19 years since he started teaching me...as to my choice of vocabulary...::shrug:: it's just a word.

Re:Sophistication?

[sumdumass]

I take it when you were 5, your family was poor and using outdated hand me downs with older operating systems that couldn't support the games you wanted to play.

That's cool and all, I have been poor too. But I highly doubt that a saying to passify a kid that you can't provide for is a perfectly universal message. It was only his way of attempting to not look like a useless loser in front of you.

Re:Sophistication?

[Pojut]

I take it when you were 5, your family was poor and using outdated hand me downs with older operating systems that couldn't support the games you wanted to play.

You would be wrong. Don't misunderstand me, we weren't rich, but we definitely were not poor. My dad ran a PC supply business on the side while doing programming work for the DoD. My mom was, at the time, a director for human resources at Fairchild (back before it became Orbital). Like I said, we weren't rich, but we were definitely not in any kind of financial pinch.

That's cool and all, I have been poor too. But I highly doubt that a saying to passify a kid that you can't provide for is a perfectly universal message. It was only his way of attempting to not look like a useless loser in front of you.

Considering the work he did for the DoD, running a somewhat successful supply business, and that he used to do coding in straight Assembly...yeah, I don't think he ever had to worry about me thinking he was a useless loser.

Re:Sophistication?

[UED]

Sooo if masochists like Vista, which OS do saddists enjoy?

Re:Sophistication?

[frogzilla]

Did he teach you to talk to people too? You must be quite a pair.

Re:Sophistication?

[Pojut]

Did he teach you to talk to people too?

Rarely. That pretty much came from my mom (human resources director.) I'm usually very pleasant and respectful...it's just that there are some things that set me off, and thinking badly of someone soley because of their operating system of choice is one of them.

You must be quite a pair.

We used to be. In a strange twist of fate, he messed up big time and I have hardly talked to him for about 5-6 years. Classic "Do as I say, not as I do" kind of thing.

Re:Sophistication?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't expect that the pedantic linux zealots will accept anything other than a 100% linux solution, no matter how much of a pain in the ass it is to get working, how annoying it is to get games working on it, how incompatible it is with the standard desktop configuration and software at the majority of businesses in the U.S.
        All things considered, Linux usage is like Catholicism, but without the pagentry: guilt, faith, and disparaging non-believers.

Re:Sophistication?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow. Such language for a 6 year old. But hey...learning to type and use Windows and Linux all in just a year. You're a freakin' wunderkind.

Re:Sophistication?

[geekoid]

You might want to ask your dad if that applies to people pointing out the flaws in your system.
Of course, I doubt your story is true...unless your about 12.

I can drive a nail into a piece of wood with a wrench, but when people point out why an hammer would be better I wouldn't say "Fuck You"

Re:Sophistication?

[GbrDead]

Actually, it does matter when by using a specific operating system and software you support an abusive monopolist which holds the entire computing world back.

Oh, and... fuck you, too.

Re:Sophistication?

[redelm]

??? what leads you to believe I equate pedantry with intelligence? When correctly used, pedantic forms can be more precise, and avoid confusion albeit at a cost in reading speed.

I doubt any assumption that turns out false can be termed "entirely appropriate". It is usually better to question than assume.

Re:Sophistication?

[raddan]

OTOH when mass adoption of the software that "enables you to get done what you need and want to get done" causes nightmares like SPAM zombie nets and an malware/adware-ridden internet, then I think there is some legitimacy in asking someone to consider using another platform. It's like dumping chemicals in your backyard. It may help you get things done ("PCBs, gone!"), but it's not a good thing for the rest of us, so in "getting things done" is not, in my mind, a sufficient excuse in general.

I am not looking down on you for your choice of Windows, but in the interests of stopping the general shitting in the pool that Windows engenders, I ask you to consider another platform that lets you get things done. There are lots of them out there. Of course, my own personal loathing of Windows has less to do with the technical details of the operating system and more to do with the vile business practices of the company that produces it, but that's another story.

Re:Sophistication?

[daffmeister]

Whenever this happens, I want you to say "Fuck you" to them. Woah. Your Dad said this to you when you were five?

Charming guy.

Re:Sophistication?

[Pojut]

Actually, it does matter when by using a specific operating system and software you support an abusive monopolist which holds the entire computing world back.

QQ some more. Linux is FREE, and Open Source Software is for the most part free as well. You can't get any cheaper than free. And yet, for some reason, the majority still stick with Microsoft.

Blame Microsoft's customers, not them.

Oh, and... fuck you, too.

No thanks.

Re:Sophistication?

[Pojut]

That's just it though. Using only three free programs (ZoneAlarm, AVG, Spybot) and not clicking on every single thing I see online, I haven't had a virus or bit of spyware in nearly 3 years. It's quite easy to secure a PC running Windows...most people just haven't been shown how to do it.

That being said, I don't agree with Microsoft's business practices either. That aside, though, they make a product that fits my gaming needs, and as such I'll use it.

I hate the fact that we are paying more than ever for gas while oil companies are recording record profits, but I like being able to drive to various places...compromises must be made sometimes.

Re:Sophistication?

[Pojut]

Woah. Your Dad said this to you when you were five?

That lesson came about when I was about 10 or so, actually...he just started to teach me about computers when I was 5.

The conversation was prompted by a kid in school making fun of the fact that I had a no-brand PC (having picked the components instead of buying one off the shelf). He was under the illusion that I couldn't afford a name-brand PC, when in fact (just like now) you got way more for your dollar just putting it together yourself.

Re:Sophistication?

[introspekt.i]

Nothing actually, I was just getting your attention :-P. I don't doubt your intelligence given your command of language. Pedantic forms are quite precise, but if only one party in a conversation uses them, what's the point? Yah gots me! Question better than assume, yes ideally. We're all arguing nothings on Slashdot, though :-)

Re:Sophistication?

[Pojut]

Of course, I doubt your story is true...unless your about 12.

Turn 24 tomorrow. And it is true. My dad gives great advice, but he can be something of an ass from time to time.

I can drive a nail into a piece of wood with a wrench, but when people point out why an hammer would be better I wouldn't say "Fuck You"

As a former mechanic, my answer wouldn't be fuck you either...it would be "my wrench was closer."

There is a saying that goes "The right tool for the right job." My old manager had a saying that went "The closest tool can be made into the right tool."

Re:Sophistication?

[berashith]

This is entirely true, but I choose a different tactic. Just ask the person trying to convince you to list the reasons why they are correct. At every point they make, nod your head up and down and say ok. It'll make em crazy and give up eventually, and you don't have to lower your behavior to such pointless aggression.

convincer: mine is better
me: hmm-mm , ok
convicer: it gives me access
me: Hmm-mm , ok
convicer: mine is cooler
me: hmm-mm , ok
convincer: you dont care do you
me : grins , ok

Re:Sophistication?

[jimicus]

I can drive a nail into a piece of wood with a wrench, but when people point out why an hammer would be better I wouldn't say "Fuck You" If you were the kind of person who would use a wrench to drive nails into wood, I imagine "Fuck You" would be one of the more eloquent replies you were capable of.

Re:Sophistication?

[PitaBred]

Yeah? And my car that gets half a mile per gallon and drips oil all over works perfectly well for me. Why should I change? Fuck you if you get pissy that your road and air are all messy.

There is a reason to dislike Microsoft... they piss all over established standards and interoperability. I don't want to limit people's choice, but when their choices have such a far-reaching ill effect as Windows does, I WILL tell you that your choices are bad.

Re:Sophistication?

[ratboy666]

"Why? Because it doesn't matter what operating system, brand of computer, or programming language you use."

Them's Fightin' Words... I sentence you to COBOL on IBM 360 DOS.

Come on, it does matter - a programming language is also a way of thinking. As I tell most of my students, go read SICP, do some Scheme and get back to me on that.

As to brand of computer... no, BRAND doesn't matter, unless, of course, you like Apple. Operating system? Isn't that a commodity? If it doesn't come with source, it shouldn't be used. My god, even VAX VMS came with source. Microsoft likes putting in "back compatibility" fixes into the OS core, in order to "protect" the OS investment. I guess you LIKE using an OS whose only standard API is actively poo-pooed by the prime vendor?

"The API-W will not provide any value for our customers or the industry"
Hugo Lunardelli, Open Systems and Standards Manager,
Microsoft Europe

I guess having API-W would benefit WINE more than Windows developers, right? And Microsoft will be diligent in supporting API "errors" into the future (or forking the API)?

I guess that POSIX really IS meaningless, and being able to support multiple systems from multiple vendors is lame, right?

I don't care. If I get paid, I'll be your bitch. Windows has made me a lot of money over the years.

Re:Sophistication?

[Pojut]

As I already stated above, Most Linux distributions and OSS is FREE. FREE! It doesn't get any cheaper than free!

And yet, the majority still choose Microsoft. They only got where they are because the majority of folks gave them the ability to be there. Microsoft didn't make itself rich, the market did.

If you raise a pitbull by feeding him live animals, you shouldn't be suprised if he attacks people.

I use Windows because for PC gaming it's the only realistic option in town. My Windows box has been secure for years using just ZoneAlarm, AVG, and SpyBot. It's not that hard to do.

I have issues with Microsoft's business practices just like I have problems with the oil industry's practices. I don't like that I'm paying more for gas in the US than I EVER have while oil companies are enjoying record profits...but that doesn't change the fact that I can only get gas for my car from one of those companies.

I'm all for standing by your morals and sticking to them, but sometimes a compramise is necessary. I refuse to ride a bike the 25 miles each way every day to work, just like I refuse to fight with WINE in Linux. As a result of my choice, I have limited options. I'm fully aware of this.

It doesn't bother because frankly I don't really care. Linux is gaining ground, Apple is finding its way into more people's homes...it's not like Microsoft is the only game in town for general day-to-day use. People are just convinced that it is.

Re:Sophistication?

[KermodeBear]

Why do you equate "less sophisticated" with any sort of depracation?

Because that word, like every word, has connotations. In our society, being 'less sophisticated' also carries the connotations of unintelligent, having the inability to understand something, or of being low class.

I read it as a bit of a slam myself, to be honest. I'm sure that a lot of other people did, too.

Re:Sophistication?

[joaommp]

memtest86

Re:Sophistication?

[SkuzBuket]

Fuck you. My dad started teaching me about computers when I was only 5, and I have been huge into them ever since.

So, how have you been these past three years?

Re:Sophistication?

[Pojut]

::shrug:: I use my Windows box for gaming. I turn my computer on, XP boots up, functions with all my hardware, and the vast majority of games I install on my system work just fine without having to tweak the system in any way.

I'm not a developer. I'm not a programmer. I use Windows for two things and two things only: gaming and streaming NetFlix. They both work perfectly fine with no tweaking required. My box is quite secure with ZoneAlarm, AVG, and Spybot...no viruses or other malware in years.

I don't care about the other things that Windows does badly because I don't utilize them at all. If I did utilize them and they didn't function correctly, I wouldn't use Windows to do them; I would use Linux or OSX. XP functions perfectly fine for what I need it to do, and as such I use it; the things that it doesn't do perfectly fine are of no consequence to me because I don't use those functions.

If they don't work well for someone else, then they shouldn't use it. What's so difficult about that?

Come on, it does matter - a programming language is also a way of thinking.

And if I were a programmer, I would choose a language that fits into what I'm trying to write and my style of coding...you wouldn't use Visual Basic to make something like Statistica or 3D Studio Max, would you?

I'm well aware that you couldn't just go all willy-nilly and randomly choose a language to code in. I may be absent minded and rather silly, but I'm not a complete moron...some would argue that I am a partial one, however ;-)

Re:Sophistication?

[Technician]

I personally use a Linux/Windows combination...Linux for when I feel like messing around, Windows because it has far reaching hardware support and doesn't require nearly as much tweaking to get it how I want. Forgive me for blaspheming by not using Linux exclusively; just don't look down on people like me because we CHOOSE to use what works for us.

I agree with your dad. Find the hardware and software that does the job you need done and get it. The hardware support stuff is rapidly vanishing. Some DRM (anti-counterfit) scanners and printers are by nature very incompatible with free drivers. I don't need drivers that are a multi-Meg install. They tend to run slow and crash often. If it doesn't work with XSane or CUPS, I don't use it.

I found many people are hooked on Windows applications. The more I use the alternative, the more I find Windows badly missing essentials. Need to edit the hosts file.. Notpad can't handle the file size. Need to burn an ISO, Umm what application do you need to register to unlock the advanced feature? Need to open and edit MS Office documents, RTF, and Open Document Text files... Open Office works. Need to save photos, documents or other stuff to a PDF for posting online? Need to remove red eye and change the resolution of a photo for posting online?

I was at a retreat last weekend and took photos. They requested I show the photos on the projector. No prob. Plugged in the card reader and opened a photo on the presenter's Sony VIAO laptop. There is no next button... WTF??? Searched for a photo album program. Found one. Launched it. The options were Register now, Register later, or cancel. We had no network access at the retreat. Register later simply closed the program. I gave up on that shit long ago. I changed laptops to one that works. It doesn't have Windows and factory installed Shareware.

Most Windows factory installs are little more than shareware applications on a crippled OS. An Ubuntu install comes ready to use except for the non-free drivers that you need to install for free to watch DVD's, play MP3's, watch online video, etc. Installing the non-free flashplayer9, codecs, and such is free of extra charge.

By the end of the day, I find I almost never boot into the Windows partition because I have found the easy way to get things done. The 35 second boot and onto a web page isn't done in a Windows partition. There is no reason to leave the machine on 24/7 just so you don't have to wait to get online.

I too personally use a Linux/Windows combination, but unless I am changing the map in my GPS, doing piano lessons with MIDI, or using Turbo Tax once a year, the Windows partition is just about to the point of needing a new AV subscription renewal every other time I log in. Getting things done in Windows has just become too difficult.

Re:Sophistication?

[Pojut]

Quite good, actually. Been slowly moving up in my company, living in a condo with my girlfriend (who last June graduated from Towson and this past October got a job as a 3rd grade special ed teacher.)

We just finished paying off her car, got the last book in the Akira Manga series, managed to obtain an unpunched and unplayed copy of the board game Hero Quest, and my 24th birthday is tomorrow.

All told, things have been great.

Thanks for asking:-)

Re:Sophistication?

[Pojut]

For me, the only thing I use windows for is PC Gaming and NetFlix streaming...both of which work perfectly with very minimal tweaking required for gaming. That being said, I like the layout and interface of XP very much...Linux is just much snappier.

That being said, no way am I going to screw with drivers and mucking about with WINE when I can boot up XP and be playing in a minute. The right software for the right job.

Re:Sophistication?

[redelm]

I'm not at all concerned about your opinion of my intelligence. It has an independant existence, and assuming slights or taking insult amounts to revealing insecurity.

One party can certainly be pedantic while another informal, especially in written communications. There is no requirement or even mechanism for agreement on form save some social norms when others are listening.

Even in cases were the content is minor, the discussion process is important. You young bucks don't know what the old ones do. When we're generous, we'll teach you. Maybe at a price. Or we flock off.

Re:Sophistication?

[Pojut]

"Just because you are older does not necessarily make you wiser." -My Great-Grandfather

Re:Sophistication?

[redelm]

Of course age is no guarnatee of wisdom. Nor is youth. However, age does bring experience, and there is no substitute for data. Certainly no amout of analysis. Take the data an analyse to whatever extent you are capable.

Re:Sophistication?

[Anonymous Coward]

Whenever this happens, I want you to say "Fuck you" to them. Why? Because it doesn't matter what operating system, brand of computer, or programming language you use. As long as it enables you to get done what you need and want to get done, then use it. Whenever someone looks down on your for your technology choices, just picture them as a grumpy old man at a rich country club telling you that you arent good enough for their tee times. I picture your dad as a grumpy old man with clown shoes and a big red nose. I'm sure hoping he didn't teach you that at the tender age of 5, but if he did I could see how that would affect you.

Re:Sophistication?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sophisticated in this case most likely means influenced by education/experience, not naive. Unless you're trying to say one OS is more pleasing in a artistic sense it IS rather insulting to say one lacks it.

Re:Sophistication?

[Pojut]

That is something that I fully agree with you on. Experience accounts for alot. My Great Grandfather also used to say experience is the best teacher you can ever hope to have...so long as you pay attention to it :-)

Re:Sophistication?

[Blakey Rat]

You mentioned this twice in different replies, and I have to address it because it shows such a misunderstanding of economics. (Not that I'm an expert.)

I don't like that I'm paying more for gas in the US than I EVER have while oil companies are enjoying record profits...but that doesn't change the fact that I can only get gas for my car from one of those companies.

The demand for oil increases every year, and the amount of oil sold increases every year. And the demand for oil is rising a hell of a lot quicker than most products, considering that all the development nations like China and India is fueled by massive quantities of oil.

Oil companies make profits by skimming a percentage off the top of each gallon sold. Since more gallons are being sold, they're making "record" profits, even though they're charging the exact same for their product as they always have.

When you think about it, it would be off if they *weren't* making record products, it would indicate either fatal government meddling or imminent bankruptcy in that industry.

(The other one that bothers me is people's claim that gas stations are "gouging" gas prices every time there's some emergency in the world that lowers the supply of oil. They're not gouging, they're charging increased prices because the demand increased! These people obviously have no clue what gouging actually is.)

Re:Sophistication?

[redelm]

"Good judgement comes with experience. And experience, well, that comes from bad judgement"

Re:Sophistication?

[Pojut]

As far as the gas station thing goes, I agree with you 100%. My ex GF's dad owns an exxon station, and he used to check the price every night on this Exxon portal that owners use...you have never seen a guy get as mad as when prices jumped 6 cents in one day, because he knew that he would have to raise his prices even more which would piss off his customers.

As far as oil companies go, it pisses me off because they are part of the reason our economy is doing so horrible. Yes, I know, it's business, and in business your goal is to make more money than the other guy...but still, it gets to the point where you would think someone would say "If we keep this up, the economy in our home country is going to flounder and get fucked. We should do something about this."

I guess that's why I'm not a business guy...too many morals:-P

Re:Sophistication?

[Pojut]

I picture your dad as a grumpy old man with clown shoes and a big red nose

Not quite. He is actually a picture-perfect twin of Ron Jeremy. ::shudders:: Trust me, I got drilled for that many times in school.

I'm sure hoping he didn't teach you that at the tender age of 5, but if he did I could see how that would affect you.

Nope, taught it to me at the age of 10...although using that kind of language around me wasn't beyond him for most of my life. The man gives great advice, the way he gives it isn't always the best:-)

Re:Sophistication?

[Technician]

That being said, no way am I going to screw with drivers and mucking about with WINE when I can boot up XP and be playing in a minute. The right software for the right job.

I agree with that one entirely. It is the reason I ditched Windows 2K. Every borrowed flash drive wanted me to find drivers. Same with almost everything else I plugged in. I don't do games much, so I haven't bothered trying to get WINE to work. I do work with audio a lot. My USB capture device works out of the box. I can directly open Audacity, choose the USB audio and directly start a CD or DAT quality recording. I use the real time kernel so latency for multi-track playback while recording a new track is not a problem. The same thing on Windows, not only required a driver, has long buffers causing lots of latency, an upgrade, and a Direct X upgrade as well. There is a difference between a 500 mS delay in recording and an 8 mS delay. I'll take the real time kernel. Since you are a gamer, I'm sure you already have the Direct X thing covered.

Between buying Photoshop or Photoshop Elements or using The Gimp, The Gimp is free and does the job nicely. It doesn't require purchases of extra licenses to put it on my laptop, desktop, wife's laptop, and the kid's PC. The same is true for MS Office and other common applications. It's much cheaper to use a free software license instead of a $$$$$$ per copy, with many copies needed. There is no piracy, it's affordable, and legal.

As a bonus, Microsoft hates it.

Re:Sophistication?

[introspekt.i]

Very nice! Good separation of standard big word spamming (quite common, IMO) from actual wisdom. I tip my hat to you, good sir.

Re:Sophistication?

[Pojut]

As a bonus, Microsoft hates it

You owe me a new keyboard and a soda. I demand payment now.

Re:Sophistication?

[sumdumass]

Well, don't take it personal or anything. It is just that your story sounded a lot like the "they're just jealous" lines parents give their kids when other kids make fun of them for not having the current "in" toy or for wearing "good will" cloths and eating government cheese sandwiches.

It's their way of saying don't be mad at me, be mad at them.

Re:Sophistication?

[Pojut]

Ah I see your point...after rereading, it does sound a lot like that doesn't it.

But nope, out of all the problems my family has had, money hasn't ever really been one. Well...not directly anyway. There were some serious issues that came up when both of my Dad's parents died (issues which caused my brother and I to not have spoken to him in 5-6 years...lets just say that no one on that side of the family talks to each other any more, there was no money left for my grandparents to give to anyone when they died, and my dad was granted power of attorney three years prior to their death. I'll let you put the pieces together.)

Re:Sophistication?

[Technician]

Thanks for the compliment. The writers were on strike, but now it's over. I work for free. I'll be here all week. Thank You.

I'll add it to my Sig line. It fits.

Re:Sophistication?

[offthatop]

I believe his whole point was not that someone was pointing out that the hammer was better, but rather that it is asinine to make fun of someone for ever using a wrench.

Re:Sophistication?

[SuseLover]

I personally use a Linux/Windows combination...Linux for when I feel like messing around, Windows because it has far reaching hardware support and doesn't require nearly as much tweaking to get it how I want. Forgive me for blaspheming by not using Linux exclusively; just don't look down on people like me because we CHOOSE to use what works for us. Here, let me fix that for you:

I personally use a Linux/Windows combination...Windows for when I feel like messing around, Linux because it has far reaching hardware support and doesn't require nearly as much tweaking to get it how I want. Forgive me for blaspheming by not using Linux exclusively; just don't look down on people like me because we CHOOSE to use what works for us. I don't look down on people like you because you choose to use what works for you, I look down on you because you choose to continually contribute to a immoral, unethical, monopoly abusing, vote/law buying corporation. I refuse to support such an corp. buy buying any of their overpriced, underpowered, crippled, bug-ridden crap software. There is nothing you can do with Windows that I can not get done with Linux, so what's the point of paying so much?

Re:Sophistication?

[Pojut]

Thanks, but you didn't fix it for me. I use windows for gaming and NetFlix streaming. With ZoneAlarm, Spybot, and AVG I have been virus and spyware free for years.

WINE is a complete and total pain in the ass to use with my hardware. XP boots up and "just works" with little to no tweaking required.

I use what works for me. I hate giving so much money to the big oil companies, but I need to get gas in my car somehow. Same goes for gaming. I don't really want to support Microsoft financially, but I want to be able to play PC games without any hiccups or hardware craziness.

My love for gaming outweighs my dislike for Microsoft. Sorry.

Re:Sophistication?

[Arccot]

Why do you equate "less sophisticated" with any sort of depracation? It is a reflection of a state of knowledge, sophisticated - (of a person, ideas, tastes, manners, etc.) altered by education, experience, etc., so as to be worldly-wise; not naive

That's exactly his point. Calling someone "less sophisticated" is calling them ignorant. How do you, or anyone else, know his requirements? How do you know his level of knowledge? Calling someone "less sophisticated" based on the choice of an operating system is ridiculous. It's just an OS. Get over it! It's name calling, plain and simple.

not any reflection of intelligence nor the propriety of that state of knowledge nor any moral failing. In general, less sophisticated is better because whatever task can be accomplished with less mental effort. MS-Windows certainly is appropriate for users with very simple requirements. That's because Windows, especially XP, works very, very well as an workstation OS. Windows is certainly appropriate for those with non-simple requirements, as well. Linux and it's most popular windows managers still have plenty of quirks, flaky drivers, and software incompatibilities that makes it much more difficult to use as a workstation.

BTW, a "Fsck you" on any subject is functionally identical to a concession that you possess no further logical argument, and likely indicates you lack the grace or strength to stand by a personal perference and must instead verbally attack. In this case, it means calling someone less sophisticated based on his OS choice is already a playground argument, so there's not much point in going on.

Re:Sophistication?

[Blakey Rat]

As far as oil companies go, it pisses me off because they are part of the reason our economy is doing so horrible. Yes, I know, it's business, and in business your goal is to make more money than the other guy...but still, it gets to the point where you would think someone would say "If we keep this up, the economy in our home country is going to flounder and get fucked. We should do something about this."

There's something you're forgetting: most oil companies, if not all of them, are multi-nationals. And they'll all happily sell to China, India, and all those other developing countries no matter how the US economy is doing.

Re:Sophistication?

[Omestes]

But what if I don't have a hammer? Should I be paralyzed, and unable to get my nails into wood if I only had a wrench?

Depending on what wrench you have at hand, it could do the task adequately given a lack of hammer. True intelligence and creativity is the ability to adapt.

I've hammered more than a fair share of nails with the pommel of my hiking knife, wrenches, the butts of screwdrivers, and large rocks. To extend this to OS politics, a true geek doesn't discount any OS, since they all can be useful in a pinch.

Re:Sophistication?

[Anonymous Coward]

There is nothing you can do with Windows that I can not get done with Linux, so what's the point of paying so much?

Because *I* can't...?

And are you sure you could get my LCD TV, Linksys wireless card and integrated audio all running properly without spending any time (or money) on it? Because Ubuntu won't run them out of the box. I also have a couple windows-only apps that I can't find a suitable open source equivalent for.

Don't get me wrong - I'm no MS fan either, and XP is the only MS software I rely on. But, if I had to upgrade now, I'd buy Vista and hold a cool, damp towl to my anus afterwards. As it is, I'm sticking with XP until The Evil One kills it to feed its newborn.

My free time is worth a fortune to me and I don't enjoy spending it on trying to get things working. If you do, that's cool... I used to be that way. But right now I prefer picking guitar, playing billiards, associating with women, and swallowing various forms of ethanol.

Re:Sophistication?

[syousef]

So your dad was teaching you to curse people out at age 5 and your boss was teaching you to do a slap-together job with the wrong tools. I'd say that they fucked you. Yeah, sure, realize that people looking down on you is nothing to get flustered about, but you can move on politely instead of swearing at them (at least when you're 5 for freak sake. I can swear with the best of them, but I didn't at age 5)...and sure improvise with tools if you HAVE to, but don't do a poor job just because you're lazy.

My wife and I are about to have our first child. i won't be teaching it "Fuck you" and "Hammer nails with wrench".

Sad thing is I agree with your points. They were just phrased so badly it weakened your argument.

Re:Sophistication?

[mgblst]

Your dad is a fool, and has no place here on Slashdot. All OS can basically do the same thing, so there has to be some differentiation between them. For a lot of us here, it is about being free to do what we want with our OS, to try to weaken the control of a behemoth, to have a faster/smaller/superior OS, and to pay nothing for it. So if you want to go ahead and pay for something inferior, then I feel that we are in a position to mock you.

Mocking isn't the worst thing in the world, some people even learn from it. Just as you tease someone who can't tie their shoelaces, or wears their shirt the wrong way around, we tease you.

Re:Sophistication?

[sumdumass]

You know, I almost didn't reply but I know what your talking about with the power of attorney and all. My aunt received that over my grandmother after Grandpa died. She promptly put her in a nursing home after she sat on the calling device at the assisted living apartment (It was one of those push button "I've fallen and can't get up" things) which alerted 911, my father and aunt as well as the staff at the complex at 3 am.

Anyways, I get pissed off because Grandpa saved quite a bit of money and has a full pension that went to grandma after his death plus she receives some social security. Anyways, she (grandma) cosigned a loan for a van so one of my cousins would have reliable transportation for work and to move her two kids around. My aunt went crazy when she heard of that and complained to my dad that it was their inheritance not Tracy's (my cousin) and went crazy over it. My dad said something along the lines of "she raised your kids so you didn't have to, it's what she does so get over it." They went 2 years of not speaking to each other after that. It wasn't until the loan was paid in full and there was no worry about grandma spending grandpa's money that my aunt calmed down enough to forget it. The worse part about it is, Tracy is my aunts kid who grandma raised from the time she was 2 years old until she turned 17 when she finally moved back in with my aunt.

All I can say is people are like that. Don't let it rule your life, you don't have to forgive but don't shut them out either. Family is one of those things that your supposed to accept even during the bad times too. Find a way to get over it as best you can. Now if your dad is one of those who was never around until he thought would benefit him (which was rare), then use your judgment whether to consider him family or not. Life goes by too fast to let some things in the past haunt the future.

Gotta be true. Typical microsoft way after all :

[unity100]

Screwing other customers to make a product more appealing to some other group.

There's no trick...

[PinkyDead]

..it's just a simple trick.

The wonders of rationalization

[dlsmith]

the fact that the trick wasn't removed from SP1 suggests that Microsoft executives approved the back door as a way to make the price of Vista more appealing to sophisticated buyers And I'm sure my neighbor leaves his front door unlocked because he wants me to come on in and make a sandwich.

Re:The wonders of rationalization

[Triv]

And I'm sure my neighbor leaves his front door unlocked because he wants me to come on in and make a sandwich.

That reminds me: You're outta mayo.

--Your Neighbor

Re:The wonders of rationalization

[Anonymous Coward]

Only if he says "sudo make me a sandwich"

Re:The wonders of rationalization

[diggum]

> And I'm sure my neighbor leaves his front door unlocked because he wants me to come on in and make a sandwich. Well, if six months ago it was published worldwide that he left his door wide open and anyone could go make a sandwich, and your neighbor was well aware of this, and after a large remodel of his house with press releases the front door was STILL unlocked, one may assume he hadn't had any troubles so far with the sandwich-making activities. This is what I would do: 1. Two slices of thick Texas Toast, lightly toasted. 2. Thick layer of peanut butter (crunchy) 3. A layer of 1/4" thick banana coins 4. A layer of bacon. 5. Deposit into mouth. sincerely, diggum

Re:The wonders of rationalization

[Hatta]

This is what I would do: 1. Two slices of thick Texas Toast, lightly toasted. 2. Thick layer of peanut butter (crunchy) 3. A layer of 1/4" thick banana coins 4. A layer of bacon. 5. Deposit into mouth. sincerely, diggum

You forgot to fry it in butter.

Re:The wonders of rationalization

[Junior J. Junior III]

Oh, and your wife is running low on condoms. Please pick some more up at the drug store on your way home, please.

Re:The wonders of rationalization

[Anonymous Coward]

This is true. I don't find MS pricing practices appealing and I do not value their software in the same measure they do. Nevertheless, if you, reader, want less DRM and registration and restrictions on your software then it is contradictory to then say that when they don't completely lock down an upgrade version that they are "asking for it".

The fact is that you know that is not their intent and are willing to work around it. When your actions cause MS to designate the practice as a large enough sales loss then they will introduce further restrictions. Then you can complain about how much harder it is to activate and grow poetic about having to reach long strings of digits to a foreign representative. OR you can be responsible with your future and not "take advantage" of the situation. If you and enough of your friends can honor the implicit/explicit agreement then maybe we will all see less restrictive software. On the other hand, if you arbitrarily state you have "executive approval" whenever things are less restrictive... wait for it.... things will become MORE restrictive.

What strategy is it that you (Slashdot) wants to take?

Re:The wonders of rationalization

[Culture20]

In many states, if you improve a portion of your neighbors' property and use it, but your neighbor does nothing, you eventually can sue for ownership of the property.

Re:The wonders of rationalization

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, if he had to buy the house every time he wanted to make a sandwich...

Re:The wonders of rationalization

[geekoid]

If you really think that is a comparable analogy, you really don't understand the issues at all.

Re:The wonders of rationalization

[Anonymous Coward]

In many states, the authorities kill citizens who disagree with them.

Re:The wonders of rationalization

[bazorg]

the fact that the trick wasn't removed from SP1 suggests that Microsoft executives approved the back door as a way to make the price of Vista more appealing to sophisticated buyers
And I'm sure my neighbor leaves his front door unlocked because he wants me to come on in and make a sandwich.

could be, but your neighbour does not have a way to charge you a posteriori threatening to remotely disable your newly acquired sandwich.

What does the EULA permit?

[PPH]

Perhaps Microsoft is "letting" people get away with this and counting on the BSA dropping by later to collect.

Re:What does the EULA permit?

[Anonymous Coward]

The EULA permits YOU to take Microsoft to court if they try to enforce a NON legally binding illegal contractual agreement made by one party, themselves without your agreement.

Re:What does the EULA permit?

[mbge7psh]

From the EULA:

13. UPGRADES. To use upgrade software, you must first be licensed for the software that is eligible for the upgrade. Upon upgrade, this agreement takes the place of the agreement for the software you upgraded from. After you upgrade, you may no longer use the software you upgraded from. Buying the upgrade version when your not entitled to it doesn't make you copy any more legal than a pirated copy.

Re:What does the EULA permit?

[pegr]

Buying the upgrade version when your not entitled to it doesn't make you copy any more legal than a pirated copy.
 
But before you can get in trouble, they have to prove you don't own a prior version. Good luck with that!

Re:What does the EULA permit?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, you would need to prove you do own a prior version in order to avoid trouble.

This isn't criminal court, there's no "innocent until proven guilty" maxim. If you can't show you don't have a valid license then, prima facie, you don't have one and the BSA will take your ass as payment.

Re:What does the EULA permit?

[Anonymous Coward]

the company I work for just had a surprise audit by the BSA.
we have stacks of old retail boxes of MS Office, and piles of old MS Office cdroms.
do you know what the BSA letters said? RECIEPTS ONLY.
dated store recipts that say "OFFICE" on them is all that they accept. a box is worthless, a cd-key is worthless, a cdrom is worthless.
we have horrible bookkeeping and can't find half the reciepts for products we know we own.
if the BSA asks you to PROVE with a DATED RECIEPT that you have a full install of Vista, and all you can come up with is an "upgrade" cdrom, YOU ARE SCREWED.
so even if MS lets you upgrade Vista to Vista. dont risk it.

Re:What does the EULA permit?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, but it does allow a manufacturer to get the money from people buying the upgrade edition, and then float rumors that a new service pack will figure out the difference and put Vista back into "limited" mode, which will trick some of those people to buying the full version as well at a full retail price later on when they've invested so much time in it that they can't go back to XP easily.

Research shows...

[Starturtle]

...you're more inclined to buy something you don't want if you think you're getting a deal or getting away with something.

Re:Research shows...

[srussia]

...you're more inclined to buy something you don't want if you think you're getting a deal or getting away with something. That's because what you really want is getting a deal or getting away with something and you're willing to pay the cost of "putting up with something you don't want" for the privilege.

Re:Research shows...

[techpawn]

like the problem that occurs when people focus too hard on the idea that economics is the study of resource allocation in the presence of scarcity.

Or the researcher who did the work on people willing to waste time for a free ice cream cone over paying for one with no line? Seeing how much of a loss their willing to take (in time, because we know our worth in time thanks to hourly wages) for "free"?

Re:Research shows...

[AdamPee]

There's something to this, Windows historically makes money by keeping a crippling stranglehold on the market, and if they can get people to think they're screwing them over by using their upgrade package, thus putting Vista into more people's hands, it is reasonable to expect that they won't mind less profit at this stage to try to exploit it later.

Re:Research shows...

[pipingguy]

Then why have none of my Slashdot story submissions been accepted since I became a subscriber?

Special Deal.

[Mactrope]

Special is another word for paytard, isn't it?

MS always fucks you at the drivethru

[elrous0]

I actually considered upgrading recently, just because I wanted to set up a remote connection server on my home PC. Then I found out that, as with XP, this doesn't come with the Home edition (even Home Premium) of Vista. So I'm going to get stuck buying the $200+ "Vista Ultimate" edition for one lousy crippled feature. Thanks, MS!

Re:MS always fucks you at the drivethru

[Kuxman]

You can always try RealVNC. It's what I use for both my windows and linux machines. There's a free version too that doesn't have encryption.

Re:MS always fucks you at the drivethru

[canistel]

No, with the right google search to help you, vista home will do remote desktop serving as well.

Re:MS always fucks you at the drivethru

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you ever tried comparing RealVNC to Microsoft's RDP over a low-bandwidth connection? RDP blows it away, easily. Not to mention that RDP supports changing resolution on the fly and serial/floppy/printer/sound redirection.

Re:MS always fucks you at the drivethru

[ahecht]

see http://www.missingremote.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1220&Itemid=224

Re:MS always fucks you at the drivethru

[Ark42]

Have you ever tried comparing RealVNC to Microsoft's RDP over a low-bandwidth connection? RDP blows it away, easily. Not to mention that RDP supports changing resolution on the fly and serial/floppy/printer/sound redirection. TightVNC, at least, supports screen resolution changes, and with the Mirror Driver option, is much faster than regular VNCs. I couldn't really care about serial/floppy/printer/sound at all though.

The big reason to use VNC is it is cross-platform. I have 1 Linux, 1 Vista, 2 OS X, and 3 XP computers in my house, and regularly VNC from one OS to another.

Re:MS always fucks you at the drivethru

[pandrijeczko]

Have you ever tried logging into a remote PC using RDP in order to fix something for them and show them what it is you're doing so they can fix it themselves in future?

Maybe I've missed something but the moment you log into an XP system with RDP then whoever is logged in gets logged out - and I seem to recall doing a Google about it that this is a deliberate crippling of XP and RDP by Microsoft.

Yep, RDP has a purpose and it does a job but as a mainly Linux guy, I cannot wrap my brain around Microsoft's staggeringly overcomplex permissions settings which invariably stop anything built into Windows XP from working first time when you want to connect to it over a network.

TightVNC is far easier to set up, transparent between XP and Linux and, when you mess about with display settings a bit, is no slower than RDP.

These days, if a friend or relative needs help from me fixing a PC problem, I send them a single sheet of instructions via email about how to download and set up Hamachi (for VPN connectivity) and TightVNC on their PC, then I just connect in and fix it.

Re:MS always fucks you at the drivethru

[Anonymous Coward]

Vista Business is $100 or so less.

Re:MS always fucks you at the drivethru

[Anonymous Coward]

VNC is great and all, but I feel it needs mentioned. All the flavors of XP and Vista that I have run across have remote assistance. It's essentially a specialized version of remote desktop.
I know it's only partially related to the discussion, but you brought up helping users remotely and letting them see what is happening.
I use this to help my parents. They can see what is going on, and if the user decides that they don't want you to have control anymore, they're the ones with the power to disconnect by pressing 1 key (esc). They don't have to try and wrestle control back if you're not sharing nicely. Afterall, it is their computer. With VNC I believe you have to kill the session, not too hard, but more difficult, especially if you don't remember how quickly.

Re:MS always fucks you at the drivethru

[elrous0]

Where did you see it at that price? I haven't seen it at any reputable seller (non-pirate or fly-by-night) for under $150. For that price, I had might as well spend a few extra $ and get ultimate.

Re:MS always fucks you at the drivethru

[kannibal_klown]

It's true, remotely accessing a PC w/ RDP will kick out the user.

However I believe that's why XP has Remote Assistance, it works similar but the local user can accept the connection request and watch the remote user move the mouse around to fix it. I think the 2 users can even swap control of mouse/keyboard amongst themselves.

Re:MS always fucks you at the drivethru

[Lehk228]

dude, TightVNC is free and it also doesn't suck, which is more than i can say about remote desktop (every time the server machine boots it seems to make a randomized decision on whether or not to allow remote connections without first requiring a local login then fast user switch lock.

Re:MS always fucks you at the drivethru

[Lehk228]

unfortunately remote assistance is even more Failsome than RDP, the first thing RA asked me was for a fucking MSN Messenger account.

Re:MS always fucks you at the drivethru

[PCMeister]

Given the average /. reader, I beg to differ on that point.

If you're referring to the average user, then perhaps it would be a valid point that MS was out to screw you for the availability of that one feature (pun intended).

However, if you're even remotely adept at dealing with network apps, then you would be actually screwing yourself by forking over "$200+" for a feature you could actually install for free by using OpenVPN or OpenSSH running on Cygwin.

Just my 2 cents...

I guess it's better than a money-back rebate

[davidwr]

They could do what Symantec, McAfee, and a lot of other vendors do:

Antivirus: $50 - $30 rebate - $20 upgrade rebate

Only it would be

Vista Home Basic: $399 - $100 rebate - $100 upgrade rebate = your price $99

Dear Sucker, we mean Customer:
To get the upgrade rebate, fill in the form with the version and registration keys or "Registered to:" number for both the old and new copies of Windows. Limit one upgrade rebate per new copy. Limit one upgrade credit per old copy. Violators will be persecuted, we mean prosecuted, to the full extent of the law.
Sincerely,
Microsoft Customer Relations

Re:I guess it's better than a money-back rebate

[greetings programs]

Duh, $399-$100-$100=$199

Re:I guess it's better than a money-back rebate

[Zontar_Thing_From_Ve]

Only it would be

Vista Home Basic: $399 - $100 rebate - $100 upgrade rebate = your price $99

OK, I see this post was modded as "funny", but
$399 - $100 - $100 != $99 (try $199)
Unintentional mistake? Or an example of what we might call "Microsoft Math"?

Re:I guess it's better than a money-back rebate

[Anonymous Coward]

> Microsoft Customer Relations

Microsoft Customer Retaliations

There, fixed that for you!

Re:I guess it's better than a money-back rebate

[nlightnmnt]

Vista Home Basic: $399 - $100 rebate - $100 upgrade rebate = your price $99

Been doing arithmetic in Excel again, have we?

Re:I guess it's better than a money-back rebate

[thexile]

Hmm, Excel show as $99...

That word does not mean what you think it does

[victim]

sophisticated adj - aware of or able to interpret complex issues

But you've used it in a sentence where you meant "willing to commit fraud to steal a license, but not willing to outright steal the license in its entirety". We don't have an english word that completely covers that, but "criminal" would do. I'd rewrite the last line to end...

"the back door as a way to make Vista more appealing to criminals."

Re:That word does not mean what you think it does

[Anonymous Coward]

Criminals love the back door. They don't call it "Pound-Me-In-The-Back-Door Prison" for nothing, you know.

Re:That word does not mean what you think it does

[Anonymous Coward]

"the back door as a way to make Vista more appealing to criminals."

Vista wants to take you in the back, so you take it first. Law of the street, thug.

Still Illegal

[MoToMo]

I'm sure that the upgrade license agreement does not allow this, even if it is technically possible, so why would i spend money and still have an illegal copy of windows? If you're going to use an illegal copy, use one, if you're going to do the right thing and purchase a license, you might as well buy the right one.

Re:Still Illegal

[iainl]

You're right it's still illegal to use the upgrade without owning a legitimate XP disc.

However, I suspect the real reason that they left it in is that it's also legal to use the 'trick' to perform a clean install of Vista, when you have an XP disc sitting around, but don't want to fill your drive with cruft before you start.

Re:Still Illegal

[Sancho]

Never upgraded Windows before, eh?

Since at least Windows 2000, you've been able to just pop out the disc, put in the older version to prove that you own it, then switch back and continue with the install. This gets you a clean install of the new OS while still verifying access to the older media. It takes less time, too (don't have to install the new OS twice in order to get a valid activation.)

Re:Still Illegal

[businessnerd]

Reminds me of a conversation I recently had with a Mac user who was starting a new job that required IE6. He was considering buying a "used" copy of XP from e-bay or something for less than retail. I told him that it is illegal, so if you're going to do that, you might as well download an illegal crack for free. You're breaking the law either way, but at least one is free. I still advised that if he didn't want to break the law, he run out QUICK and snap up a legit copy before it becomes impossible.

Re:Still Illegal

[Jax Omen]

That worked in 98 too. The point is that DOESN'T work in Vista. Hence why this workaround exists.

Re:Still Illegal

[Sancho]

And my point was that Microsoft already had an easy way to ensure that a clean installation could be performed using an upgrade disc. Such a solution already existed, so to suggest that they "left this trick in" for this reason is kinda begging the question, only in reverse.

Re:Still Illegal

[djrobxx]

Because, buying the upgrade will give you that genuine Microsoft key. No stressing over cracks and Windows Update. .

too bad...

[Anonymous Coward]

I feel sorry for the guy who had to figure out that this was possible in the first loser. Poor guy, using vista experiencing problems on so many levels.

Not just Vista

[Deadstick]

...the same capability exists in the upgrade versions of WinXP. If no Windows version is present on the hard disk, it asks you to briefly insert a disk of a qualifying version, including 95/98/Me, and it activates on the new disk's product key.

rj

Re:Not just Vista

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the point is that vista doesent even ask for previous media, it just installs no questions asked

Re:Not just Vista

[gEvil (beta)]

I think the point is that vista doesent even ask for previous media, it just installs no questions asked

That's nice of them, because I do have a fully licensed version of XP MCE that came with a machine I bought a few years ago. However, it was an HP, so I only have the crappy "Restore" discs that it let me make, which includes all the crapware they were paid to include. I'm fairly certain a Windows upgrade disc wouldn't accept these as "genuine" media that's eligible for upgrade, even though they should be. It's nice to know that I can install Vista onto a fresh HD without having to deal with first installing XP and all the extra crap, only to blow it away with the upgrade.

Re:Not just Vista

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you even read the article? Vista upgrades can only be applied to an already-installed Windows 2000, XP, or Vista (not simply by validating against one of their installation disks). The trick is that you can do a clean install using the Vista upgrade disk, then do an upgrade install over the clean install. The upgrade install will recognize the clean install as a legitimate qualifying version to which the upgrade can be applied.

Re:Not just Vista

[mauthbaux]

...a qualifying version, including 95/98/Me...

Interestingly enough, even the first gen "XP Pro Corporate" disc qualifies as valid media. At least it does when installing XP home SP2 upgrade.

Re:Not just Vista

[Corporate Troll]

Must be just me, but if you have a corporate XP Pro and you're pirating XP Home, why not use the XP Pro version in the first place? I'm just wondering.

Re:Not just Vista

[HeronBlademaster]

I used to use a set of Windows 3.1 install floppies to make Win98SE's upgrade disc do a clean install. It was annoying... it insisted on validating all four floppies.

Re:Not just Vista

[AlexCV]

Funnily enough, this has been par for the course at Microsoft for a while. The old Windows 95 upgrade version only checked that a file "C:\WIN31\WIN.COM" existed and then it would merrily "upgrade".

Re:Not just Vista

[mauthbaux]

Pro Corporate was one of the first widely pirated versions of XP, the .iso was available everywhere. It did require a key, but it didn't require any activation. This led to everyone using the exact same key. The big shortcoming it had was when MS started requiring a secondary activation in order to download service packs.

Anyway, my experience with this was when I built a new system, bought the XP home upgrade, and proceeded to install. I've bought enough machines over the years to have several 95/98/me licenses sitting around, so I feel buying the upgrade version rather than the full was justified. Unfortunately, the installer doesn't recognize the crapware-contaminated install media supplied by the oem. The pro corp disc however, validated just fine.

Re:Not just Vista

[bwy]

I've actually got a XP CD (retail) and I would still prefer to install just Vista. First, it is time consuming to install two OS's when you start from scratch, as opposed to one. Second, will the upgrade installer let you repartition the drive and truly start from scratch if you're doing an upgrade? Can't remember whether I had the option or not. Of course, if you mess with your hardware a lot, you'll also be calling M$ quite a bit to reset your license. Overall, I find it to be a nasty process.

Re:Not just Vista

[Corporate Troll]

Between you and me: there is a little tool that can read the keys from existing installs. Use it at your workplace and take their key. It most likely isn't leaked. That's how I did it, back in the day when I actually used XP. (Now full Debian user) Google will help you finding that tool.

The main problem with Pro Corporate is getting the key. Never use those that are widely pirated, that's asking for problems.

XP Pro is better than XP Home, so, well... Main reason to use it ;-)

Re:Not just Vista

[oreaq]

The trick is that you can do a clean install using the Vista upgrade disk, then do an upgrade install over the clean install. The upgrade install will recognize the clean install as a legitimate qualifying version to which the upgrade can be applied. You closed source guys are funny.

i'll pass

[Dan667]

The more I hear about Vista the less I want it. In fact, I think I will just skip it all together.

Re:i'll pass

[Anonymous Coward]

The more I hear about Vista the less I want it. In fact, I think I will just skip it all together.

Methinks we have found the true "sophisticated buyer".

Trick

[weicco]

For some reason this came to my mind instantly when I read the summary (in the sound of Hubert J. Farnsworth) "Yes, yes, let's all break the law and buy upgrade versions and use it against the license."

What a stupid story

[enosys]

You can an unlicensed copy of Vista for free. So what do you get by doing this? I guess the only benefit is that it can appear genuine without cracks on any computer (including ones without keys in the BIOS).

In Canada, Vista Ultimate OEM seems cheaper than Vista Ultimate upgrade. I guess installing that might even be legal.

Re:What a stupid story

[kannibal_klown]

I believe there's a caveat between OEM Vista and Retail Vista. OEM Vista becomes tied to the motherboard, while Retail lets you transfer to a new PC. So if you ever need to replace the motherboard due to damage you're out of luck. You can probably try calling Microsoft but I don't know if that will work 100% of the time.

Plus I believe Retail Vista comes w/ both 32-bit and 64-bit versions while OEM comes with either one or the other.

Re:What a stupid story

[deniable]

I took a quick look and it's the same in Australia. OEM versions are cheaper than Upgrade. They install on clean hardware, so I can't see a reason for the upgrade version on a clean drive.

The whole story is a bit pointless, really.

Is Microsoft getting desperate?

[Toe, The]

I can't imagine that MS is completely unaware of this workaround. After all, they have a licensing department that is larger than many (most?) corporations.

That inclines one to suspect that this hack was left in intentionally.

Now why would Microsoft let people steal from them so easily? That seems diametrically opposed to most of their past behavior. However, if their brand is indeed on a "sharp decline," then this action would suddenly make sense.

But it is still amazing to see Microsoft to be (seemingly) actually encouraging theft of their product. What will they think of next? Voluntarily coding to standards?

Re:Is Microsoft getting desperate?

[ozbird]

But it is still amazing to see Microsoft to be (seemingly) actually encouraging theft of their product. What will they think of next?

Fixing it in SP2 once enough people have taken the bait?

Re:Is Microsoft getting desperate?

[Darundal]

This isn't new behavior from Microsoft at all, although your examination of why this is happening now is dead on.

Occam's Razor

[pshumate]

Isn't it much more likely that they never got around to/didn't care to fix the hole, instead of putting the thought into leaving it there for "sophisticated" users? No profitable business should knowingly allow a method that costs them a larger potential sale, let alone encourage it.

Granted, I suppose there is some merit to having more people buy a cheaper version, but I don't really buy it.

mo3 down

[Anonymous Coward]

sling, re'turn it to

I'll accept it in your stead

[Anonymous Coward]

I hear Ubuntu allows the full installation on any machine

No, it doesn't.

Re:I'll accept it in your stead

[lattyware]

If you can't manage to install Ubuntu, you deserve to run Windows. Seriously, it's so easy these days. Yeah, Those -1 trolls coming my way, I guess. But someone had to say it.

Re:I'll accept it in your stead

[Dog-Cow]

The default install of Ubunto 10.whatever-it-is fails on VMware Fusion because Fusion presents the virtual disk as scsi and the front-end to Grub in the installer doesn't get it.

Re:I'll accept it in your stead

[Anonymous Coward]

The default install of Ubunto 10.whatever-it-is fails... I'm not surprised, Ubuntu 10.whatever is not entirely stable yet.

Re:I'll accept it in your stead

[Anonymous Coward]

The default install of Ubunto 10.whatever-it-is fails on VMware Fusion because Fusion presents the virtual disk as scsi and the front-end to Grub in the installer doesn't get it. In fairness very few end-users have SCSI in their desktop machine anymore and VMWare (or ESX and Server at least, I don't know Fusion) does let you choose IDE or SCSI disk emulation when you set up the virtual hard drive.

Re:I'll accept it in your stead

[Anonymous Coward]

You are an idiot, first it is spelled Ubuntu, the current version is 7.10, and there is no problem with fusion. If you are stupid enough to pay for a buggy OS like vista, then I guess you can't spell Ubuntu!

Re:I'll accept it in your stead

[vandit2k6]

If you can't manage to install Ubuntu, you deserve to run Windows. Seriously, it's so easy these days. Yeah, Those -1 trolls coming my way, I guess. But someone had to say it. It is easy to install Ubuntu. But dual booting is just a nuisance. I have spent many long nights trying to tell grub how to boot both Linux and Windows (not at the same time of course). Great times!! Can't think of anything else I could do POSSIBLY do with my time.

Re:I'll accept it in your stead

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, you're right. Vista *is* better than Ubuntu. /rolls eyes

Re:I'll accept it in your stead

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess you can't spell Ubuntu! Wow, you really showed him.

He can capitalize letters and punctuate properly though so I'd cut him some slack.

Re:I'll accept it in your stead

[Technician]

The default install of Ubunto 10.whatever-it-is fails on VMware Fusion because Fusion presents the virtual disk as scsi and the front-end to Grub in the installer doesn't get it.

For a non-standard install, download and install from the Alternate ISO. It fits nicely on a bootable DVD. You can skip Grub if needed. The live install CD was not intended for power users.

Re:I'll accept it in your stead

[ZsoL]

The default install of Ubunto 10.whatever-it-is fails on VMware Fusion because Fusion presents the virtual disk as scsi and the front-end to Grub in the installer doesn't get it. Well I guess you should provide it with an IDE virtual disk using the options of VMware Fusion...

Re:I'll accept it in your stead

[Kelz]

Unless the live CD won't boot. Which usually means theres an issue and X won't initialize on its own. Which means you have to install through the alt CD and then fuck with X and try to figure out the commands to grab the drivers and reconfigure X, rebooting to your windows partition each time to figure out those commands. All of that, only to have GTK error out so you can't even log in.

Forums have been useless for the issue. I'd not recommend it at the moment given my experience. (both fedora and mandrake have run flawlessly on the same PC in the past).

Re:I'll accept it in your stead

[eric9]

Whenever I've had problems with GRUB SCSI and VMWare, I switched to LILO and everything went fine (if you consider LILO fine). While I prefer GRUB hands down, sometimes using LILO instead made things "just work"

Re:I'll accept it in your stead

[diamondsw]

No problems here. However, if you install the betas of Ubuntu or Redhat they will only partially work due to incompatibilities between the current Linux kernel and VMWare Tools.

Re:I'll accept it in your stead

[xtracto]

Showing the best of open source aren't you?

Re:I'll accept it in your stead

[empaler]

The default install of Ubunto 10.whatever-it-is fails... I'm not surprised, Ubuntu 10.whatever is not entirely stable yet. That's just an automatic response to the fact that it's slated for a release in ~24 months. Shame on you for such lack of confidence in Ubuntu!

Re:I'll accept it in your stead

[FrankieBaby1986]

Wow. Case in Point? Intimidate mods, get modded informative for making an opinion statement (irregardless of the fact that the opinion may/may not be widely held)?

Re:I'll accept it in your stead

[boiert]

Except that ESX doesn't

Re:I'll accept it in your stead

[Anonymous Coward]

Speaking of poor drive detection, insisting 7.10 was a nightmare. I had to put up with it insisting that any (PATA) drive I threw at it was an SCSI drive and subsequently failing to boot after installation. After retrying a few times, I eventually gave up and just installed Debian on the thing. (Which was a fucking breeze compared to Ubuntu, by the way. Rather odd how that worked out.)

I would like to note that I had no such problem when putting Dapper on another box a while back, which has been quietly running Gusty for several months now.

Re:I'll accept it in your stead

[rohan972]

I have spent many long nights trying to tell grub how to boot both Linux and Windows

I have spent several seconds telling grub to boot Fedora, CentOS and Ubuntu.

Re:I'll accept it in your stead

[vandit2k6]

Ok that doesn't mean anything. Your config might be different than mine.

Re:I'll accept it in your stead

[amias]

my install (non-vmware) worked fine and the ide disks appear as sd* , grub worked perfectly from
the normal installer. This has been the case for
a while , i think you meant to say that the controller
doesn't have drivers in the kernel.

vmware and ubuntu don't play so nice yet , maybe in the next version...

Re:I'll accept it in your stead

[rohan972]

Is different. No windows. For a comparison, use an windows installer on a ubuntu machine and set up dual boot. Is it even possible?

If it doesn't set up automatically though, grub config for any bootable partition:

rootnoverify ([refer to partition here])
chainloader +1

Re:I'll accept it in your stead

[vandit2k6]

Is different. No windows. For a comparison, use an windows installer on a ubuntu machine and set up dual boot. Is it even possible? If it doesn't set up automatically though, grub config for any bootable partition: rootnoverify ([refer to partition here]) chainloader +1 Its not possible - I don't think it is. I mean there could always be a hack right. Anyway I have about 4 hard drives in my system. I think only one of them is FAT32 the rest are NTFS. One of the hard drives I partioned into two. One partition being Vista (go ahead make fun of me) and the other being latest Ubuntu 8.04 beta. So lets just put it this way. Installation of Ubuntu erased some stuff on my windows partition that I couldn't even boot windows. I tried many different combinations, well I actually tried ALL combinations I am talking about the (hdx, y) where x and y are ints. You know this. It said it was missing an NTLDR. So I am thinking that something got screwed with my installation of Ubuntu. By the way that didn't happen with other installations of previous Ubuntu 7.10. I know what you're going to say - thats it my fault for beta testing the software. And I am not complaining, I am just saying that the ease of use factor IS NOT EXACTLY THERE 100%. Even with the non beta Ubuntu the 7.10 - I would still have to fiddle around with grub to boot correctly. Is that ease of use?

Re:I'll accept it in your stead

[rohan972]

Its not possible - I don't think it is.

Kind of my point. That is, you can set up dual boot from windows, but it's not exactly obvious, and not in the installer AFAIK. Yet this problem doesn't strike you as windows lacking ease of use, but ubuntu.

Anyway, NTLDR is the windows bootloader. http://support.microsoft.com/kb/919529 You should be able to restore it using the instructions here. You can easily find a tutorial on how to set up dual boot.

I doubt this is a backdoor.

[Vellmont]

The likely scenario is MS decided that anyone re-installing the OS from scratch shouldn't have to first install the old OS, or produce installation CDs for the old OS. Sure, a few people might violate the EULA and buy upgrade instead of the full version.. but at least you're getting their market share and their money. In the end it's probably better to not piss off the legit upgraders than it is to squeeze everyone with ridiculous procedures.

So to call this an intentional backdoor is misleading IMO. It might just be Microsoft admitting that their licensing procedures have been detrimental to business in the past. (I assume previous "upgrade" versions have looked for an old OS before installing?)

but practicality shows...

[esocid]

we still do not want

You've given up trying, haven't you?

[Anonymous Coward]

Gee, where have I heard the word "paytard" before? Oh, yeah!

When you used it to describe an 11-year-old boy!

SSH?

[Anonymous Coward]

Forgive me for suggesting the obvious, but isn't the functionality you described completely covered by SSH? It comes free with virtually all Linux distributions, and I hear you can even get it running on Windows.

Fago8z

[Anonymous Coward]

of a solid dose I thought it 3as my

Trust ??

[Anonymous Coward]

I personally think it fits what I now believe is their 2 part marketing model:
Part 1. Sell Windows / Office as a contagious disease. Example: Small business needs a new note book computer, owner runs down to Fry's, Microcenter or whatever comes back with something with Vista and the Latest Office on it and guess what. In no time every thing is so screwed up, that he/she winds up buying news copies of Office and Vista and or all new computers ...

Part 2 Addiction. This applies to those who don't want to out right pirate it. Finds a installation 'oversight' (Like in this case) by M$ and is able to install a upgrade vs. buying the full product. Gets it to work. Wow even lasts through a service pack. Then stupidly trusts it. (What is a little bit of Smack, I can handle it. I am smart and tough ..). Buys some new App that needs Vista. Becomes dependent on the new App. Then guess what ..Tries to get the latest patch of the week to keep out the 'worms' and M$ update loads a new version of Windows Genuine Validation ...and then it chokes.

Does anyone else wonder when the Windows Activation Codes become VISA/MASTER CARD numbers ??

Upgrade

[Programmerman]

And here I thought they put in this "trick" so that people who want to reinstall don't have to go find their old media, install the old OS, THEN reinstall Vista.

Ep!!*W!!

[Anonymous Coward]

These early you join today! As fiitingly BUWLA, or BSD

I am a genius then

[ameboy]

Paying a buttload of money and not having any right to use the product is sophisticated. Then what do you call downloading a pirated version and having the same without paying, genial?

Re:I am a genius then

[pandrijeczko]

Then what do you call downloading a pirated version and having the same without paying, genial?

Actually, I'd call it "I find it far easier to brag about being some l33t pirate than having the guts to use an alternative free operating system that I don't have to steal from somebody else."

Sophisticated buyers?

[dr00g911]

Methinks sophisticated buyers will simply continue buying a $5 mouse from their favorite online retailer, thus fulfilling the vendor's "must be bundled with hardware" requirement for a $169 OEM Vista Ultimate full version instead of a $199 boxed upgrade in which you have to jump through hoops for a clean install.

I posit that there's one market for those boxed upgrades on the shelf at BestBuy, Target Etc... and "sophisticated" they ain't.

Re:Sophisticated buyers?

[hidden]

Actually, this wording was changed in Server 2003. it's now something along the lines of "Must be bundled with a fully functional computer capable of running this software" I'm assuming Vista has the same change, though I haven't actually checked.

Re:Sophisticated buyers?

[Helix666]

At my local PC store (Scan), you have to buy a motherboard/CPU/other major component to be able to buy the OEM version. I'm not sure what policy would be in use at other computer stores, but I'm guessing it would be similar.

Re:Sophisticated buyers?

[MojoStan]

Methinks sophisticated buyers will simply continue buying a $5 mouse from their favorite online retailer, thus fulfilling the vendor's "must be bundled with hardware" requirement for a $169 OEM Vista Ultimate full version instead of a $199 boxed upgrade in which you have to jump through hoops for a clean install. I think some buyers might choose the retail upgrade version because the retail license allows the upgrade version to be transferred to a new computer as long as it's no longer used on the previous computer. The OEM version can only be legally used on the computer it was originally installed on.

Of course, choosing the retail upgrade version for this licensing reason doesn't make much sense if you're violating the upgrade license by not having a previous version of Windows. Also, Microsoft does not seem to enforce the OEM "only on the original computer" license restriction. If you install the OEM version on a different computer than the original, you can just say you got a new motherboard and activation will accept this explanation no further questions asked.

Also, some "sophisticated" users don't need the extra features of Vista Ultimate and would settle for Vista Home Premium. Home Premium got a bigger price cut than Ultimate, so the retail upgrade and OEM versions for Home Premium are about the same now (around $89-$99).

Re:Sophisticated buyers?

[dr00g911]

Of the two places that I purchase from regularly, one requires a hardware purchase of any type, and they'll actually call you and ask if you'd like a $5 mouse or a $3 y power adaptor added to your order.

The other (not naming names, but they're rather ovoid) doesn't seem to give two shits if you buy anything else in your order at all, at least with the countless XP SP2 OEM discs I've bought from them when building PCs or gutting existing machines for family & friends.

I've bought one Vista OEM from them (home premium), and it was all alone on the invoice. Vista was (and remains) so excessively terrible for the three things that I use that machine for (3d illustration & animation, media center with nForce 4 chipsets and an nVidia Quadro as the cherry on top) that one would have to hold a gun to my head to get me to install Vista on any machine I have to support or work with on a regular basis.

Mind you, I don't have any moral dilemma whatsoever torrenting the OS for personal use. The fine details of the license agreement are pretty much insignificant to me UNLESS I'm installing it on a business machine or I'm being paid for support, in which case I'm 100% legit at all times. My gaming rig and the in-law's machine? No guilt whatsoever about sharing a single (valid) XP SP2 x64 license.

The Second Microsoft-orientated oxymoron.

[pandrijeczko]

"Microsoft Works" being the first and now "sophisticated users buying Vista" is the second.

Why would you want to buy the upgrade...

[pyrr]

...and land in morally questionable waters, when you'll probably have to buy a bunch of computer parts to upgrade your system for Vista to run nicely, and qualify for a cheaper OEM full-version purchase if you order it along with the parts. Most retailers consider ANY part purchase to qualify for the OEM license purchase, such as a $1.00 IDE cable.

But even that option doesn't exactly change the fact that Microsoft Windows license fees are basically just a stupid/unwilling-to-learn tax that gets imposed upon almost all computer owners. I'm in that number too, my Kubuntu laptop has a Vista license sticker on the bottom...

Re:Why would you want to buy the upgrade...

[What me a Coward]

Because the OEM Vista tie's itself to the hardware and activate on any other peice of hardware IE new CPU or different motherboard if yours happens to go bad/die, Then you not only have to buy a new mobo but also a new OEM Vista.

    The retail on the other hand and this includes the retail upgrade doesn't tie itself to the hardware and can be moved to a whole new machine with new cpu, mobo, memory, HD and DVD drive and still be reactivated.

    I love my 4 retail vista's keeps me from spending out more every year when i upgrade my machine to new hardware :)

Re:Why would you want to buy the upgrade...

[Lehk228]

you bought four copies of vista.

wow, you really shouldn't go around admitting that.

by the way, i have a bridge for sale real cheap and i am trying to smuggle my family fortune out of nigeria and would like your assistance in doing so, you will be well rewarded for your efforts assisting me good sir.

Re:Why would you want to buy the upgrade...

[What me a Coward]

Actually i bought three upgades of vista retail the forth was a free thank you from MS for my help in the Vista beta program. I got into the beta by responding to a web request for beta testers found a couple bugs easy and fullfilled the requirements for a free copy of vista. Bought 3 upgrades cheap enough to upgrade the other XP PC's in the house and the rest is history. Had to try the upgrade bug though to see if it would work, It does.

    My fifth Vista came free of charge as well with my purchase of a compatable duo core toshiba laptop. :D

    As for your bridge sorry I don't buy bridges its not my thang! And I don't condone smuggling so I won't assist you in that endevore either.

    If however you wish to earn enough money to afford 5 PC's plus OS'es like I have might I sugjest becoming a Baker and joining the Bakers union. I fry donouts for Cub foods I don't earn as much as a journeyman Baker does but I make a good enough income Frying Donouts and im not even at the top payscale. Amount of college training 0% amount of money invested in training for my job 0$.

    Beats flipping burgers at MC' Donalds for a living or trying to earn a living working for Walmart.

  --Giva a man a fish feed him for a day, Teach him to fish and feed him for a lifetime.--- Words of wisdom.

Re:Why would you want to buy the upgrade...

[Lehk228]

no thanks on the baking, sounds fun but i like my job well enough, i don't have 5 computers but i do have 4, all licensed properly. 3 are windows XP Pro, one is an asus eeePC running xandros

Re:Why would you want to buy the upgrade...

[What me a Coward]

Ok thought you didn't from the last response.

      All my Pc's are likewise liscensed properly the upgrades weere for XP machines that i later upgraded to vista retail and then changed the mobo's and cpus on. MS knowingly approved the upgrades when i called them to reactivate the Vista upgrades so it's all good.

    Seriously I spent 18 years really hating on MS but finally relized I was only hurting myself by all the MS bashing for things that had long since past under the bridge and that most everybody else cared little about while some others were trying and still are to promote A much grater evil than Bill or MS has ever been, I speak of course of a Steve Jobs lead Apple. Even Leo Laport an Apple lover has admited that Steve is more Evil than bill or MS ever was, But I digress.
    For many years I did run a sick national bird version of windows because I felt somehow justified because of what MS and Bill had done to others, Only to relize in the end as I said that I was making thing much harder on myself than I needed to for reasons as I said that had never personally effected me on any serious level. I had also during this time tried several alternatives to try and break away from my perscieved evil empire, Things like OS2 still have the original Os2 warp case and disks around somewhere and Redhat think I have the discs as well as well as the BeOS and others. But in all that time I have kept returning to windows because it allowed me to do the things I wanted to do. So I finally bought windows xp for the Pc's I had and never looked back. The same has held true for my brother though he had tried for a longer period and on a deeper level to work with linux because of his modified Tivo system which he more recently abandoned for a Apple Tv system. In the end he also returned to windows because it gave him a much greater and easier way of doing the things he wanted to do. He still has his apple Tv though but has his Pc's running windows XP and one running Vista.

    Sorry but I went a bit far on this however I thought I should better explain my Journey. Oh I left out that in the begining I had no ill will towards MS and had bought my first Pc's with windows 2.8 (theirs a blast from the past, I still recall going into Bestbuy with $1 and the front page from my windows 2.8 manual and walking out with the windows 2.9 upgrade) preinstalled. The hating came later after witnessing some of the things MS did to rise to where it had been.

    As I said im over it now lifes to short to waste so much of it hating so many, And it only wears you down and makes you a crazy bitter old fart with no life anyway.

Re:Or - a way around upgrade nightmares

[zoward]

Another possibility: the only time I tried to use an (admittedly beta) version of Vista to upgrade an XP box, it trashed my hard drive. Since this was just test hardware, I wasn't concerned, and just did a clean install. I'd be pretty ticked off if it happened on my main machine, but I'd be even madder if I couldn't install it on my now-hosed drive without having to reinstall XP first. Hell, I might just stay with XP (definitely not something MS wants to see happen), especially if my copy of XP was actually a restore disc (which probably won't allow you to verify an OS upgrade), or even a restore partition, either of which I may or may not still have ... turning my $149 upgrade disc into a very expensive coaster while simultaneously wiping my hard drive.

Microsoft may just be trying to save themselves some support headaches by making each upgrade disc able to authenticate itself.

The real problem is OEM media

[Biff Stu]

If no Windows version is present on the hard disk, it asks you to briefly insert a disk of a qualifying version

Most consumers don't have a qualifying Windows install disk. They have the system restore CDs supplied by their OEM. Let's say you install Vista on one of these machines and later decide that you want to do a clean install or maybe the HD dies and you need to start fresh with a new HD. If they were to close this back-door they would have plenty of pissed off customers who cant install the upgrade that they legitimately purchased because it won't recognize the disks provided by the OEM.

Conspiracy? Please

[UnknowingFool]

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. --Robert J. Hanlon

Considering the other more important fixes that Vista SP1 needed, I'm sure it was just overlooked or ignored.

KDawson taking lessons from Zonk?

[RMingin]

This isn't news, but then again, when has /. worried about that?

Back when this 'hack' was first introduced to the unwashed masses, MS made official comment to the effect of 'we meant for it to work that way'. They hope that folks buying upgrade editions would be *upgrading*, and that this just allows folks who upgraded but didn't want to reinstall XP before reinstalling Vista and folks who had misplaced their restore media to get by.

Again, NOT news, but since when is that news?

Next release I'll have to wear my wizard hat...

[tjstork]

Some other people have said it, but I'm going to just echo the sentiment of foolishness. These Vista folks are still paying a few hundred bucks, at which point, they'll done the wizard hats and find some way to hack up an upgrade into a full edition, under the light of the full moon, with an animal sacrifice, while standing on one hand upside down with a 45 pound weight tied to your leg, and then, say, "thank you Microsoft, for allowing this workaround that lets me license the product at half price....and all you did was publicly say that if I did I would be violating the EULA anyway..." I don't know really know much good will that really is, when, I can go get ubuntu off of a web site for free, spend $1 on a blank DVD, burn it, boot from it, and then be done.... and, best of all, there's no ubuntu 20 digit license key, no ubuntu activation, and, I can do it sitting in my chair, with my feet on the ground, and no weights. Best of all, the animals love me too.

Re:Next release I'll have to wear my wizard hat...

[PRMan]

You still spend $1 on blank DVDs?

no need to purchase the more expensive...

[ewilts]

Don't let the fact that this install won't be legal stop you. Pirate.

Just because you can technically do something does not mean that the vendor has granted you permission to do it. You are violating the license agreement if you do this and the copy is no more legal than if you just pirated the whole darn thing. Why even bother paying for an upgrade license if the result is still an illegal installation?

Re:no need to purchase the more expensive...

[geekoid]

Um, violating a contract isn't illegal.
It's a violation of an agreement and thus actionable through civil channels.

Not even taking into account the fact that not following a one sided contract may not even be actionable in a civil court.

But, you sit there on your high horse, make ad Hominem attacks, and continue to keep your brain in idle. The rest of us recognize you for the ass hat you are.

Re:no need to purchase the more expensive...

[AngryDill]

Sorry to break it to you, but unfortunately, EULAs have been proven actionable in court. Also, the prevailing viewpoint of the BSA and their Redmondian masters is that the mere act of installing software to use it constitutes "making a copy", and is permitted only at the whim of the license they provide; lest you be violating their copyright. Furthermore, in this post-DMCA era, copyright infringement is now considered a federal offense (I'm assuming you live in the US, as I do).

If you're a reasonable person, and like me don't care for this unjust situation, there is a solution. Use software that values your rights and freedoms

-a.d.-

Alternative

[Anonymous Coward]

Or maybe they'll just buy the OEM dvds instead?

Office 200 Pro

[tedd169]

Years ago I had to buy MS Office Pro for Access. I bought the upgrade accidentally. I then saw the requirements for the upgrade, DOS and Wordperfect were list along with others. Well, when I went to install it, I got the upgrade error.. But they give you an option to point to a different drive to scan for licenses. When I pointed it back to the CD-Drive it ran the full install.

Only on Slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, I'd call it "I find it far easier to brag about being some l33t pirate than having the guts to use an alternative free operating system Running Linux takes guts??? You think your choice in OS makes you brave, edgy and cool?

(Ubuntu naming jokes need not apply)

Re:Only on Slashdot

[pandrijeczko]

Running Linux takes guts??? You think your choice in OS makes you brave, edgy and cool?

If you are an inexperienced user who has the strength of character to not steal software from someone else and instead embrace the high learning curve it takes to migrate to Linux instead then, yes, I say that takes guts - rather than the easy way out of just downloading an illegal copies of Windows from BitTorrent.

Me? I'm just a middle-aged fat bloke who's been using UNIX and Linux for years, who finds it a piece of piss to set up and use, helps other people use it if they ask him but funnily enough doesn't sneakily wipe Windows XP and replace it with Ubuntu whenever his niece's or nephew's need their PCs fixed.

You think your choice in OS makes you brave, edgy and cool?

I don't recall using any of those three words - you must be confusing me with an Apple user.

Some crazy people out there

[fharper1961]

Who would be crazy enough to buy Vista in the first place? I got a "free" copy with my latest hardware... First thing I did was wipe the disk clean and replace it with Ubutunu + XP.

Its easy unless something goes wrong

[spike2131]

Ubuntu still has its warts. On my box, the latest installation hangs in the middle, no good error messages. What the heck am I supposed to do about that?

Previous versions worked fine... it just goes to show that you should never, ever, upgrade.

Re:Its easy unless something goes wrong

[Curtman]

Why are you installing if you have a previous version of Ubuntu installed already? Change your repo's and apt-get dist-upgrade.

There's even an easy way.

Re:Its easy unless something goes wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

To be fair, the apt-get dist-upgrade route doesn't always work. Maybe gp had tried it and it trashed their install?

It has never worked on any of my boxen. I know I'm in the minority here, and it works 100% for most people most of the time. But it is has never worked for me.

Re:Its easy unless something goes wrong

[RiotingPacifist]

In case of all errors, use the alternate install CD, if you know what ubuntu is like you dont really need the live one anymore. Im a ralative noob but i always install with a knoppix + alternate combo. If you want to do anything slightly different, encryption/lilo/evm/etc, knoppix lets you edit existing OSes into shape and the altCD outperforms the liveCD.

I do agree tho, there is little need for an end user to upgrade (especially every 6 months, just upgrade when you need to, and avoid betas). Infact the same can be said for vista or a new ubuntu, theres no point updating unless
1) you need a cutting edge feature (but you can back port them most of the time)
2) you need to install an OS, so you might aswell go with the newer one
3) your a geek who wants to play with it.

Re:Its easy unless something goes wrong

[greedyturtle]

In the words of the great H.J.S:

"Let this be a lesson to you, kids.... Never Try."

IP35

[Simian Road]

Ever tried installing Ubuntu on an IP35 chipset? I did last week and it was a real ass.

First had to switch the Sata connections over on my motherboard from the lower 1-4 ports to the5-6 ports, then turn on AHCI in the Bios. Then it won't boot from CD whilst AHCI is on so I turn it back off. Finally found out that I needed to use the alternate install disc and add the -irqpoll setting to get it to even begin installing. Once it was installed it wouldn't boot into Ubuntu properly so I had to turn AHCI back on (which makes it work fine!). Although this has the downside of making me unable to boot from CD, the CD still works in the OS and now that I have everything working I don't care about booting. The slight downside (or upside depending on how you look at it) is that XP then stopped working because of the AHCI. One final reset back to normal Sata, tweak the registry, switch back the bios and I was done.

I'm not hugely tech-savvy but I was quite happy at getting it to work in the end. Just don't tell me that Ubuntu is easy to install!

***Puts on Flame-proof coat***

Re:IP35

[xrobertcmx]

It really just depends on the chipset. Ubuntu, SuSE, and Fedora all install on my Nforce 430, I believe...have to double check, chipset based board like a dream. Then won't boot if I don't pass the no acpi command during boot. There is always some odd quirk.

Re:IP35

[robo_mojo]

Wow. That definately deserves a "WTF". I have a IP35 board and I installed Fedora 7 on it last year without an issue. Maybe it is just an Ubuntu thing.

Re:IP35

[HooDee]

Off topic stuff, but...

Yes I have. Asus P5K-E Wifi (Intel P35 chipset), 8800 GTS, 4GB, C2D E6750. AHCI on all the time.

After very easy installation everything works just fine "out of the box". Yes, even the built-in WLAN adapter, sound card, graphics card, compiz effects. etc etc.. The version I tried was 64-bit Ubuntu Hardy Heron Alpha version something.

I did have a blank screen problem after booting from the installation cd, but it was very easy to fix. Just remove the splash -keyword from boot params in the boot selection menu.

After installation + doing dist-upgrade the splash problem was gone too. Apart from the initial blank screen problem installation was amazingly easy.

Sorry for my crappy English. I've been lurking around here in Slashdot for a long time now, way before I even created my account, but I tend to stay out of the discussions because of my lacking English writing skills, but this was something I think needed correction / another experience.

Re:IP35

[Simian Road]

I have an Abit IP35 Pro motherboard if anyone is curious as to which chipset I was having trouble with. It was also not version specific as I tried installing both 7.10 and 6.06 Ubuntu and Kubuntu versions.

It's not that I want to complain about Ubuntu (I think it's great), but people tend to gloss over the fact that it still has its weak spots and evangelize on about it being better than Windows at everything.

I'm really very impressed with Ubuntu so far I think it works very well and it's definitely going to be my main development platform from now on (still like my windows games though!).

Re:IP35

[Curtman]

Sorry for my crappy English. I've been lurking around here in Slashdot for a long time now, way before I even created my account, but I tend to stay out of the discussions because of my lacking English writing skills, but this was something I think needed correction / another experience.

Don't let that stop you. Many people here speak English fine, but make no sense at all.

Re:IP35

[kylehase]

***Puts on Flame-proof coat***

***Takes aim at Simian with flamethrower***

***Realizes this is pointless as Simian has just put on his Flame-proof coat***

***Switches FPC piercing rounds***

Upgrades from Vista RC1

[RonnyJ]

People who took place in the Vista preview programmes (i.e. used the betas) are entitled to 'upgrade' to the final version of Vista - and thus this 'trick' is both required and legal for them to use.

Re:Upgrades from Vista RC1

[Anonymous Coward]

Ummm, no. You would use the full version ISO and DVD Key that they gave you at the conclusion of the beta program if you were entitled to it.

Re:Upgrades from Vista RC1

[RonnyJ]

You've misinterpreted what I've said - there were two groups of beta testers.

The official beta testers got full versions afterwards if they had submitted anything (as you said), but those in the more public beta programme got told they could buy and use the 'upgrade' version if they wished to get the final. Since they'd be upgrading from 'Vista beta' to 'Vista', you'd need to use this 'upgrade' trick.

Both

[davidwr]

Two math misteaks in won day. Man, I really gotta stop using calc.exe.

Actually, I'm a reply-whore and was trolling for replies.

OK, the truth is, I haven't had any coffee yet today.

OT: Your subject line

[Anonymous Coward]

MS always fucks you at the drivethru

That gave me a great idea. I'm going to move to Nevada and open up a brothel with a drive through window.

Shades of Windows 95 Upgrade Edition?

[NeuroManson]

Maybe it's a memory fart, but I recall going through a similar procedure way back when, with Windows 95 requiring I simply pop in a Windows 3.1 floppy (regardless of if it was authentic or not) in order to install a full copy onto a blank HD. Ahhh those were the days.

Earlier versions of Windows had something similar

[Riachu_11]

Back in the day, Windows 95 and 98 upgrade discs would ask for proof of your previous installation - but you good point the file browser to the WIN9x directory on the upgrade CD itself to do so.

Re:Or - a way around upgrade nightmares

[IntlHarvester]

You probably nailed it. Most brand-name PCs don't come with a Windows CD so there's no way to verify it.

Also, this is a bunk way of getting windows for the "sophisticated user" because the Upgrade version is still more expensive than the "OEM version plus a floppy cable" method of bying.

Who reads and mods this crap up?

[Mactrope]

The word "paytard" is all over the place, just like microtard and that idiotic "freetard" insult. People willing to pay hundreds of dollars for an OS that sucks like Vista does are really, really stupid. Microsoft slows your computer, so people at Microsoft are microtards. The phrase "freetard" is kind of a catch all used by the music and software industry as an insult to those smart enough to avoid giving them money. Ha ha, how funny. Collapsing revenues for the music and non free software industry show up how stupid the insult and those who use it are.

Re:Who reads and mods this crap up?

[willyhill]

Fascinating - most normal people would simply say "that's not me".

Re:Who reads and mods this crap up?

[Achromatic1978]

You're completely, utterly full of shit.

The word "paytard" is all over the place

Really? Google would politely beg to differ:

Results 1 - 10 of about 57 for paytard. (0.05 seconds)

And of those, 10 are you, or your sockpuppets, on Slashdot.

Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with you that you spend all day, every day, posting to Slashdot with upwards of four accounts, having conversations with yourself and cheering yourself on as you make such earth-shatteringly profound statements like "Micro$soft Windoze is teh suck"?

Re:Who reads and mods this crap up?

[dedazo]

ROFLMAO, twitter is so predictable. He obviously got it from the register, where he has an account as well.

Re:Who reads and mods this crap up?

[dedazo]

Haha, so twitter, you never did take the time to address Bruce Byfield's reply to your hateful little litany, did you? What's wrong, he wasn't extreme enough for your tastes? Just like Linus Torvalds isn't, either?

I seriously love Google, omg.

Re:Who reads and mods this crap up?

[Anonymous Coward]

Holy crap, I had never read that Bruce Byfield smackdown before. Thanks for the tip!

I tried installing Ubuntu on VirtualPC...it fails

[Joce640k]

How am I supposed to test Ubuntu? Reformat my machine...? Not gonna happen.

Microdot

[krelian]

I don't think there is any other site in existence that covers Microsoft as throughly as slashdot. Hell, their are more Microsoft posts then Linux posts.

Slashdot has become a twisted version of a Microsoft fan site only instead of attracting fellow fans the goal of all these posts is so that everyone and his grandmother can repeat the same old washed up anti Microsoft slogans.

Aren't you bored already?

This is reaching....

[brunes69]

The same behavior was present when Vista was originally released, but the fact that the trick wasn't removed from SP1 suggests that Microsoft executives approved the back door as a way to make the price of Vista more appealing to sophisticated buyers.

A comment like this smacks of someone who has never actually worked at a for-profit development shop.

A more reasonable response is something like "the fact that the trick wasn't removed from SP1 suggests that Microsoft executives approved the back door because a cost/benefit analysis proved that it cost more to fix and QA the problem during the SP1 timeline than the projected revenue loss from leaving the bug in place".

Slashdot Lesson 1: How moderation works.

[Macthorpe]

Who reads and mods this crap up? This might be new to you, twitter, but generally people who tell the truth get modded up. Similarly, if you lie, you get modded down.

You're so busy trying to work out how MIKKRO$HAFTLOL are gaming the system, it never occured to that it's Working As Intended(tm).

hmmmmm... i got one

[Larryish]

tag: alittlevaseline

Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

Since you can't even use an upgrade to go from a full retail version of any 32-bit XP to 64-bit Vista (at least unless they changed the installer), it makes a lot of sense to leave it alone. Because there are a lot of people with x64 CPU's running 32-bit XP. There are fewer reasons not to run x64 Vista than the corresponding XP version.

Or you can just mark it down as a tacit acceptance that the change in upgrade policy was quite stupid.

Mod parent _way_ up

[MikTheUser]

"Some people look down on others because of the operating system, brand of computer, or programming language of your choice. Whenever this happens, I want you to say "Fuck you" to them. Why? Because it doesn't matter what operating system, brand of computer, or programming language you use. As long as it enables you to get done what you need and want to get done, then use it. Whenever someone looks down on your for your technology choices, just picture them as a grumpy old man at a rich country club telling you that you arent good enough for their tee times. That's ok; you don't want to be around those kinds of people. Stay away from them."

I salute you and your dad. His metaphor was prefectly well chosen and fitting.

I consider myself something of a Linux zealot, but I FULL ACK the idea of respecting another's choice if he's okay with it. It's only when people start complaining even though they have viable alternatives available for a little extra work that I get angry.

Re:I tried installing Ubuntu on VirtualPC...it fai

[wanderingknight]

Either use another virtualization software, or just use the damn Live CD.

That's a compelling argument...

[pyrr]

..to not buy Vista at all.

Because the OEM Vista tie's itself to the hardware and activate on any other peice of hardware IE new CPU or different motherboard if yours happens to go bad/die, Then you not only have to buy a new mobo but also a new OEM Vista.

Yeah, that's about the size of it, now that you remind me. If anything goes wrong with your OEM system, you're hosed. Such a nice trait for a consumer desktop OS. I remember that causing immense customer dissatisfaction when I worked for a major computer manufacturer as a field tech. I guess I'm a bit too used to the Linux way that I forget how wretched the Micro$oft way is. My migration over to Linux was caused by one too many XP reactivation call because I liked to tinker with the hardware. So I guess maybe Microsoft customers are not only paying the stupid tax, but they are also masochists who tolerate these sorts of customer abuses.

Re:Earlier versions of Windows had something simil

[El_Oscuro]

You could also "upgrade" the Win95 upgrade CD to the full version by pretending to have WinNT:

C:\> dir > NTLDR

I got this little tip from Microsoft support themselves after my Win95 upgrade FUBARed and I had to reinstall.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Anytime Upgrade

[RWarrior(fobw)]

Great to know this thing still works on SP1.

What does NOT work on SP1 is the Anytime Upgrade I bought. I have a copy of Vista Business OEM, and for various reasons I bought an Ultimate key through the Anytime Upgrade program.

It works like this:

- Install Vista Business OEM
- Activate Vista Business OEM
- Run key package for Vista Ultimate Anytime Upgrade
- Run installer from Vista Business OEM DVD, that actually does an upgrade install - takes hours

Here's the wrinkle:

- Install Vista Business OEM
- Activate Business OEM
- Use Business for a while because I have more pressing things to do than a second OS installation.
- Install SP1.
- Run key backage for Vista Ultimate Anytime Upgrade
- Run installer from Vista Business OEM DVD, but instead of doing an upgrade install, the upgrade option is deactivated and it will only do a full format and install.

Thanks, MS. Guess I'll wait until the next time I format the machine (two or three months) to go back to Ultimate.

wow. talk about fanboi action

[unity100]

-1 troll from +1 in just 5 minutes. for a while now i was thinking that maybe the fanboi issues were no longer plaguing slashdot anymore.

Why Vista?

[Anonymous Coward]

OK, who really can defend Vista?

It sucks and we all know it, just be happy XP did as well as it did, keep using it and move on. It's great that this SP1 trick is out there, and I'm curious to see it in action, but I already blew vista off my laptop.

I decided I'd learn linux instead, and now realize, that with a little gain in technical knowledge and reading some forums, you can manage to have a computer with free stuff on it that works and does what you need it to do. Networking can be rough here and there (wireless support especially)and there are compatibility issues, but there are great apps out there alleviating these issues.

I almost wonder if one day open source could kill the beast of MS, but I fear most couldn't stand to gain more technical knowledge and learn something new(even though learning windows was/is no wasy task, anyone remember DOS ... haha).

So Thanks Microsoft but No Thanks! Fix Vista by killing it like Windows ME and give me my precious speed back.

What?

[Arancaytar]

"the fact that the trick wasn't removed from SP1 suggests that Microsoft executives approved the back door as a way to make the price of Vista more appealing to sophisticated buyers."

Are you saying that MS deliberately levies an idiot tax on customers who are not smart enough to (well, partially) pirate their product?

That sounds a bit implausible to me.

Re:I tried installing Ubuntu on VirtualPC...it fai

[Erikderzweite]

How am I supposed to test Ubuntu? Reformat my machine...? Not gonna happen. Why don't you try LiveCD? It actually allows you to test the system without changing anything on your hard disk. Just boot from CD. BTW, any idea how to test vista on my real hardware without installing it? :-)

Ubuntu install is easier than XP.

[lupine]

I tried installing an old copy of XP base release on a new system with a sata hard drive & cdrom. Horrible waste of time.
After a few unsuccessful attempts I loaded Ubuntu and it was cake.

GREAT REPLY (profanities notwithstanding)

[Anonymous Coward]

Man, this man definitely (no sarcasm intended either) has to have given of the MOST INTELLIGENT & PRAGMATIC responses I have ever seen @ this website (one that is DEFINITELY "Anti-Microsoft" (Or, is the picture of Bill "Borg" Gates not indicative of that?)). Profanity notwithstanding, because it too, has its place (emphasis).

Plus I think that edited photo of Mr. Gates + ALL OTHER "Anti-MS" propoganda here, is just a ploy on the part of /.'s mgt. to get the "disgruntled @ MS" people posting here really, since controversial topics = views = cash for /., in all honesty.

Funniest evidence I have of most of this, is that this site has Ads for Microsoft products doesn't it?

HOwever, if this tactic works for the folks here @ /., in order to generate revenues here?

Great, it does (& I BELIEVE IT DOES)...

(Still, I don't see other OS' "taking over the world", & taking the lion's share of the market away from MS... so all the "Pinky & the Brain" tactics don't seem to change anything out here worldwide as to which platform is most used on the most systems from home users all the way up to "enterprise class" business environs).

Every OS has its place, especially for those that use them... in the end.

Like the poster I am replying to said? Well, if it gets the job done??

That's all anyone really cares for anyways!

That is, unless they are a business looking to gain revenues (& you see what happens there - just like hacker/cracker types, they go for the LARGEST block of users & thus buyers, possible... (& that's Windows, for decades now)).