Moving Between Countries?

An anonymous reader writes "In six months' time, I am packing up and moving from Australia (Melbourne) to Canada (Vancouver). I'm a qualified network engineer. What I want to know is, what sort of quirks and tricks I am going to have to get used to in the Canadian job market? I'm used to Australian recruiters, and all the hoops you have to jump through, but Canada may have different hoops. I've tried contacting recruiters directly for information but they don't really give out much, as I am not actually in the country yet and therefore not worth their time. Is anyone willing to share their experiences on making the big move from country to country?"

Comments

I work in Canada

[Anrego]

.. as a programmer and havn`t moved between countries, so I can`t really provide a direct answer.

What I can say is that I`ve found Canadian companies want to see work samples rather than long lists of certifications. Not really sure what would constitute a work sample in your field though.

References are also very important here (and probably there as well). Generally employers want to talk to previous employers. Seeing as how that would be difficult due to timezones and long distance fees, having a few written letters of reference before you leave might be a good idea. Email might work as well.

Also there tends to be a defacto job posting site for every province, where most of the jobs in the area will be posted. Here in Nova Scotia, it is CareerBeacon. Finding out what your areas job posting site of choice is, is probably a good first step.

Re:I work in Canada

[jez9999]

References are also very important here (and probably there as well). Generally employers want to talk to previous employers.

Heh, that's interesting. In the UK, it's almost the opposite; an employer judges you based on CV, interview, previous work, and maybe qualifications; often, references aren't even followed up on, or they are checked after the job is offered to make sure you're not hiding some catastrophic thing. I think this is more sensible, too. A previous employer's reference is pretty worthless; they might make up nasty stuff because they didn't like you leaving, or make up good stuff to get you off their hands if they think you're crap.

Re:I work in Canada

[Zemran]

The reason why they are not supposed to take up references until after an offer is because you might not have told your boss you are looking until after you have a job to go to. It might ruin your job prospects of your boss finds out you are job hunting.

Re:I work in Canada

[CrashNBrn]

It should be easier than the states, since Canada is part of the Commonwealth. Which I believe makes visa's et al much easier.

Re:I work in Canada

[nacturation]

Seeing as how that would be difficult due to timezones and long distance fees, having a few written letters of reference before you leave might be a good idea. If the prospective employer can wake up early or stay up late and their cashflow can manage the 6 cents a minute it costs to phone Australia, I think it might be a good idea to place that phone call before investing tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in a new employee.

Re:I work in Canada

[skrolle2]

long distance fees No. Just.. No.

Recruiting the wrong person for a job is very, very costly, you'll end up paying a few months of salary before noticing the mistake, and then you have to re-do the entire hiring process again, which also costs money.

On that scale, five bucks for a phonecall is totally worth the money.

Re:I work in Canada

[Antique Geekmeister]

Or $1.00 on a Skype call. VoIP is very handy for both telecommuting and for remote interviews, and familiarity with it would be helpful to a network engineer interview. I once purchased and sent an overseas business collaborator a good headphones for precisely this purpose, to ease our communications. It saved him a lot of money over the next year.

Re:I work in Canada

[Threni]

> A previous employer's reference is pretty worthless; they might make up nasty stuff because they didn't like you leaving, or make up good
> stuff to get you off their hands if they think you're crap.

In the UK references are usually just to confirm that you worked there, with perhaps a mention of how much time you were off sick. If an employer said anything bad about you - no matter how true - they would be liable for claims of libel. It's just not worth the hassle - you're leaving, so just draw a line under it and move on; it makes no difference to them if you get a job elsewhere or not. Ditto for saying very good things about an employee - if you are shit in your new job, your new employee could sue the old one for lying/exaggerating etc. Generally a new employer just wants to ensure you're not lying to cover up gaps in your employment history because they want someone who is up to speed, not someone who's done a little SQL 3 years ago but has forgotten the syntax etc.

Re:I work in Canada

[tomhudson]

The reason why they are not supposed to take up references until after an offer is because you might not have told your boss you are looking until after you have a job to go to. It might ruin your job prospects of your boss finds out you are job hunting.

... alternatively, it's the quickest way to a fat raise.

Re:I work in Canada

[tomhudson]

Recruiting the wrong person for a job is very, very costly, you'll end up paying a few months of salary before noticing the mistake, and then you have to re-do the entire hiring process again, which also costs money.

... which doesn't explain the over-reliance on CVs and "resume pushers." Want to hire someone? Go to a developers' conference and see who asks the most intelligent questions, who gives the best answers without trying to get into an ego pissing contest, who's honest and who's a poseur, etc. Sure, it will cost you some $$$, but you'll get a better feel of who is talking out their ass, who is respected by everyone, and who is an obnoxious toxic SOB in real life, instead of just playing at being a BOfH online ... plus you'll learn something.

The biggest lack in business is communications skills, not programming skills. Where do you think the unreasonable deadlines, the feature creep, the death marches, the zombie projects that the undead are condemned to toil on come from? And it's not "all management's fault." Everyone in the chain has to take some blame, by not being able to effectively communicate why something is a bad idea, or the necessity of feature triage, or the need for more "quiet think time" as opposed to banging out LOCs a mile a minute.

Also, to answer the original posters' question - the definitive place to look for jobs in Canada: http://www.jobbank.gc.ca/Intro_en.aspx - Canadian government web site where employers post job offers, it also supplies tools for job applicants, info, etc ...

Re:I work in Canada

[vertinox]

The reason why they are not supposed to take up references until after an offer is because you might not have told your boss you are looking until after you have a job to go to. It might ruin your job prospects of your boss finds out you are job hunting.

IANAL In the US, there have been cases where employees have sued employers for bad references if they said something malicious, slanderous, or they gave out private information.

Your former employer can say "Joe didn't perform as well as his coworkers" and be OK as long as it was true but if they "Joe was an evil bastard who sucked compared to his coworkers... Oh and I'm sure he stole office supplies even though we never caught him... And he's a diabetic so your insurance costs will be through the roof!" would not be OK and have some merit in a lawsuit.

Of course Canadian and UK law is probaly different from the land of litigation. I get the feeling in top corporate companies in the US, they will only go so far to tell other employers only the fact that the employee in question worked at that company and if they left on good terms due to fear of intentionally being accused of being malicious

Re:I work in Canada

[NotBornYesterday]

Heck, if your HR people don't want to stay up late, what's wrong with sending a fax?

Re:I work in Canada

[greyhueofdoubt]

>>liable for claims of libel

I'm not trying to be nitpicky here- if anyone knows the answer, please chime in- but shouldn't the offense here be slander instead of libel? Or are they close enough that the courts just use libel in all cases?

I'm just curious.

-b

Re:I work in Canada

[vic-traill]

Heh, that's interesting. ...[snip]... ; often, references aren't even followed up on,

Speaking for myself (and I've acted as a hiring manager on dozens of interviews, but less than a hundred) I use references for one reason: to investigate a behaviour(s) I have concern about as a result of something said or not said in the interview. This includes further discussion on specific behavioural answers given.

In my experience, you've got a pretty good handle on whether you're interested pretty quickly in the interview, particularly from an expertise perspective (if not, then your interview is crap). However, there are people out there who are *experts* at interviewing, and their interview answers may not align with their actual behaviours in the job. So the reference check is an opportunity to ask specific questions of a previous employer that will tell you whether the individual in the job acts similar to the individual in the interview.

This approach also allows the reference to give a meaningful reference without incurring any possibility of litigation ('you gave me a shitty reference - I'm suing!' behaviour)

BTW, I am Canadian, interviewing in Canada. Whether this is indeed a characteristic of the overall Canadian job hunting scene , I can't say.

Good luck, mate!

Re:I work in Canada

[Wizard Drongo]

It kinda depends.
Libel (in England & Wales) is a defamation made in a written or permanent media form. E.g. writing a reference for someone that states "they do drugs at work all the time". If that was true (and could be shown to be true/fair comment) then you'd get off when the junkie takes you to court.
Slander (again, in England & Wales, ymmv) would be if a person said it, but didn't write it. There's a fair bit of legal debate as to whether a recording of speech constitutes slander (since it was written down, ergo it is "fleeting") or libel (since now nothing spoken need be "fleeting" ever again, see youTube!). At the moment the courts tend to hold spoken as slander written as libel no matter what medium it is stored.

Course it makes no odds to me at all, since I live in Scotland, where, like a lot of civil-law based countries (as opposed to common-law based ones like England, Canada, Austraila, the USA etc.) there is no such thing as libel or slander.

It's called "defamation" and applies wherever a person or their character has been defamed to their negative detriment. Again, however, truth is a defence (called veritas in Scotland), as is privilege (hence why MP's can call Scientology whatever they want in the House of Commons without getting sued to death; not sure if this extends to the Scottish Parliament now).

However, I am NOT a lawyer, so if you depend on any of this for legal advice, not my fault!

Re:I work in Canada

[flooey]

Of course Canadian and UK law is probaly different from the land of litigation. I get the feeling in top corporate companies in the US, they will only go so far to tell other employers only the fact that the employee in question worked at that company and if they left on good terms due to fear of intentionally being accused of being malicious Growing up, my friend's mom used to have to answer employee referrals for a big corporation, and she said that there was a code where if you liked someone, you said very good things about them, and if you thought someone was crap, you only confirmed that they were employed for the dates stated. Anyone getting a "I can only confirm that Mr. Soandso was employed here." was supposed to know that that meant "We recommend that you not hire this person."

Re:I work in Canada

[rikkards]

I am finding through other people's experiences that in general a bad reference is never given, due to potential liability or defamation issues. A bad reference is most likely a "Yes this person worked here and I am declining to give any reference".

Re:I work in Canada

[RealGrouchy]

On that scale, five bucks for a phonecall is totally worth the money. On that note, I don't know if anyone has told you (OP) that we use wild animals as currency here in Canada. Make sure to arrange to have some moose and beavers ready for you when you get here unless you want to walk from the airport.

- RG>

Re:I work in Canada

[MiniMike]

With the more litigous environment in the U.S. these days, most companies will only confirm employment. Maybe for bad employees, they will employ the 'read every other line' trick...

Re:I work in Canada

[Ex-MislTech]

alternatively, it's the quickest way to a fat raise.

Some bitter management types follow this little gambit:

1) I cannot get them more money.

2) If I can make the ppl calling think they sucks then he stays

3) I can brag to my boss how I saved the company and move up !

Thus my dim view of management most of the time.

Re:I work in Canada

[emodgod]

I'm Canadian, I've worked in Canada, mostly Central Canada, but I now live and work in Southern California.

What an employer wants to see depends on the employer. The BFIs (Nortel, ...) have very elaborate interviewing and hiring processes, structured interview, background checks, etc. These processes are not geared towards finding the best candidate. They are there to ensure the employer does not get sued.

While smaller employers used whatever process they feel comfortable with. Which could be as little as the initial interview or requesting that you take a programming test. I suggest that you be ready for whatever they could through at you.

Speaking from experience of moving from one country to another, the change in culture is, or was for us more difficult to adapt to. While we had an excellent credit rating in Canada, we unknown to the major credit agencies and as such getting loans for cars or a house was very difficult. We had to purchase our car using cash from the proceeds from the sale of our home. Given that we moved here ~ten years ago and the Canadian dollar was not where it is today, we lost a significant chunk of money due to exchange rates.

Health care. Luckily for you, Canada has universal health care so you won't need to worry on that front. While hear in the U.S. health care is provided by the employer, if and only he feels like offering it. Having come from a country where health care is universal, being so dependent on your employer for health care makes you think twice about changing jobs.

Immigration laws and how they impact your employment is another issue. Given that I'm from Canada I'm not knowledgeable on Canadian immigration rules, but here is the U.S., once you've started the 'Green Card' process with one employer, it is difficult to impossible to transfer that petition to another employer. Our petition took five plus year to complete. And in those five years, my spouse could not work since she was on a dependents visa and I had to endure a very abusive boss. Something I would not have endured if we were back in Canada.

Education. Does the education system in the target country meet your cultural expectations? Here in the U.S. there are a many hot button issue. Namely, Evolution Theory, prayers in school and sex education, to name a few. If you have kids then you may want to find out what they are teaching in the Vancouver schools systems.

Don't under estimate the time and distance traveling between Vancouver and Sydney. I've done the L.A. to Sydney flight and it takes ~14 hours, plus a crossing of the international date line. Which means you'll loose a day, but you get it back on the return trip. Traveling that distance with small children could be difficult. Also, the cost of the trip can only increase with the cost of crude oil. Seeing family and friends will be less frequent since you really need to take two weeks off when traveling such distances.

Climate. Never thought I would miss winter! Southern California has the Fire, mudslide, and earthquake seasons! Vancouver winters are mild but wet.

Lastly, small creature comforts. Things that you enjoy at home that won't be available at your new place. Doughnuts! Too quote Homer Simpson. Krispy Kremes are no Tim Hortons. Favourite television programs, This Hour has Twenty-Two Minutes, Royal Canadian Airfarce, Saturday Night at The Movies, etc. Watching the Olympics from a different countries perspective! The only time we see Canadian athletes is when there are Americans participating in the event. Also, which of you electronic gadget will you need to replace? TV broadcast signals use NTSC encoding, in North America. Soon to go digital. As such you TV may be useless. Same could be true for any DVD or VCR. Electrical systems. We use 120/240 (110/220) volts. Got adapters?

Thing to think about.

Re:I work in Canada

[tomhudson]

That's why you give your co-workers, and the employer BEFORE your current employer, as references - not your current employer.

Re:I work in Canada

[rec9140]

the opposite; an employer judges you based on CV

Next to no one in the US and even possibly Canada (even being a Commonwealth country) is going to know what that means. Unless of course they took Latin.

Call it a resume and you willsound/look less like a "tourist."

Re:I work in Canada

[emilper]

server unavailable ... slashdotted ?

Re:I work in Canada

[tomhudson]

It works fine for me ... just tested it agai, but don't bother trying to ping it. It's sitting behind one of these.

Who knows - maybe they're blocking access from certain countries/IP blocks?

Re:I work in Canada

[x_MeRLiN_x]

Is it common for Americans to use UK spelling in a primarily British forum?

Re:I work in Canada

[Sentry21]

In Vancouver, you can find a lot of the jobs on T-net. I've had this recommended to me many times after moving to Vancouver, and while I didn't get any of my jobs through it, that's largely because I'm not as qualfiied as the high-end candidates.

Re:I work in Canada

[Sentry21]

I disagree here. I've never found a job through the Canada Job Bank, and for that matter, have never even seen a decent job posted there (maybe it's changed since then).

There is no 'definitive place' to look for jobs in Canada, as each region has their own quirks, peculiarities, and preferences. The biggest site I know of for actual job postings (many of them highly technical, like Linux kernel development) is T-Net Jobs. That said, I've found all of my jobs through Craigslist, oddly enough (and I make pretty good money), with one exception (where a recruiter called me for job that I didn't apply for through them).

Honestly, a lot of the local companies that are recruiting talent (as opposed to 'hiring employees') can be found on Craigslist. Same goes for apartments and cheap couches.

Re:I work in Canada

[njh]

Interesting, my bosses have always been supportive, no, encouraging of following up job prospects. They want me to be happy where I am, and one way to ensure this is to allow me to consider alternatives and reject them (or accept them) myself. I can't imagine working for a boss who tried to hoard me. People at my work often talk about job offers they've got. Sometimes the leave, often they return :)

As a result, I would happily return to work with any of my former bosses if the opportunity/need arose.

Re:I work in Canada

[uniquegeek]

Canadian here. I would say anyone university educated *should* know what a CV is.

Re:I work in Canada

[jez9999]

What do you do when the employer reference given says, "what?? That asshole is looking for another job? Thanks for calling, I'm going to start looking for his replacement immediately. By the way, don't hire him."

That's why giving references sucks, you can get your ass fired at your old job which isn't usually a good idea.

Re:I work in Canada

[jez9999]

I will sound a lot like a "tourist" if I use it when describing UK job applications, which was the subject of my post, given that we don't have resumes here.

Re:I work in Canada

[tomhudson]

It's improved in the last couple of years. You might want to look at it. Sure, there's still the drudge-work and low-level stuff, but there's also some gold among the 53,000 jobs currently being advertised. There's also info about the requirements for non-citizens, which the original poster will need.

Re:I work in Canada

[WGR]

Actually there is a difference between a resume and a C.V (curriculum vitae).

A resume should be s summary of your work qualifications, while a C.V is a detailed inventory. You send the resume in the application and give the C.V when you are interviewed/hired.

Re:I work in Canada

[WGR]

Actually that is Loons ($1 coin) and Polar Bears($2 coin).

Re:I work in Canada

[Zarf]

I want to move to where ever it is that you live.

Re:I work in Canada

[Hucko]

And hope to God they haven't moved. I found myself in that situation recently. I went back nearly 3 employment places to get someone I had only met in the company -- we'd barely had reason to cross paths. Good bloke though, I got the job. I must remember to thank him.

Re:I work in Canada

[Drishmung]

References are also very important here (and probably there as well). Generally employers want to talk to previous employers. Heh, that's interesting. In the UK, it's almost the opposite; an employer judges you based on CV, interview, previous work, and maybe qualifications; often, references aren't even followed up on, or they are checked after the job is offered to make sure you're not hiding some catastrophic thing. Correct. That is the only reason to check references---to verify facts. But, you always, always check references before you hire someone.

Some of you may never have met sociopaths. Charming scoundrels. Totally, absolutely convincing. Great interview technique. Exactly who you want to hire.

Check the references! What, they never worked for you? They did, but as building maintenance? Those certifications are actually bogus?

It is much worse to hire the wrong person than to not hire anyone at all. I know, at the end of an endless day of interviewing manifestly unsuitable candidates, when The Right One finally turns up, or even someone at least marginally employable, the temptation is to offer them the job on the spot out of sheer relief. Not Before Checking The References!

Re:I work in Canada

[nacturation]

Heck, if your HR people don't want to stay up late, what's wrong with sending a fax? Having a conversation over fax is rather laggy.

Re:I work in Canada

[Jarik_Tentsu]

Culturally wise, well, I dunno about Canada but I know a lot of Australians come out as a bit more 'boisterous and potentailly rude' when they go over to other countries. As an Australian, you know everything generally tries to be friendly, and casual - you go "'morning mate" to your boss and talk about the footy as if you were old friends. Hell, half the time your boss doesn't even have an office and will work in a cubicle like the rest of you. And generally its that lack of formality and friendliness which will get you places.

Now I've heard that going overseas, certain cultures will take huge offence to this. If there's someone above you, you gotta be uber formal and respectful where acting like your old mates is a bad thing, not a good thing.

Dunno what Canada is like though.

~Jarik

Re:I work in Canada

[CypherOz]

Health care. Luckily for you, Canada has universal health care so you won't need to worry on that front. Ditto Australia... More or less... The basics are universal but you can have optional private cover for extras.

Re:I work in Canada

[ady1]

Don't move to BC. Move to Alberta or Saskatchewan. There are large scale oil rigging operations in both of the provinces and a huge labor shortage in almost all professions including IT.

And yeah, I do work in Calgary, Alberta.

Re:I work in Canada

[njh]

Bay area. So does everyone else :)

Re:I work in Canada

[Abcd1234]

A previous employer's reference is pretty worthless

Bullshit! A reference is the *only* way to get real insight into an employee, aside from the image they try to portray of themselves. A CV is inevitably stacked, and interviews are only somewhat useful.

The problem is that employers don't seem willing to truly grill references. A reference check shouldn't be a five minute call. It should be a thirty minute interview, minimum, where they are asked in-depth questions about the employee's performance.

Meanwhile, if the provided reference is a bad one, it's the applicant's fault for selecting them. No idiot would ask someone to act as a reference if they weren't going to give a positive review. And even if the applicant is that dumb (or unlucky), a proper line of questioning should highlight obvious bias.

Re:I work in Canada

[Zarf]

Bay area. So does everyone else :) Yeah, they say you guys live on an alien planet. Even the housing prices are out of this world.

Re:I work in Canada

[Kelbear]

I worked a stint in HR early on and found that HR would not give bad references due to legal liabilities. However, they could communicate in other ways, for example, the following scene I witnessed:

Secretary: "Marty, I have a call for you as a reference for _________."

Marty picks up and growls: "...Yes she worked here...NO COMMENT!!! *slams the phone down*"

So you can still get a bad reference even if they don't talk about you.

Re:I work in Canada

[lsatenstein]

Compared to Austrailia, we drive on the wrong side of the road. Vancouver is a great place for the summer, but lots of rain for the winter. You will be satisfied with the differences in lifestyle. Compensation should match your expectations.

Re:I work in Canada

[njh]

We're currently paying $2/sqft month rent. On the other hand I earn more here overall which means I can put more money into savings/mortgage/shares. Silicon Valley could be a fantastic european type urban area with good PT and heavy bike use (consider copenhagen or groenigen) if the counties could actually agree on anything.

Re:I work in Canada

[njh]

Of course, if you lived in a more expensive area you could sell the house when you are finished working and leave with more money.

Re:I work in Canada

[macro187]

Oops, let me help you with that typo:

<sarcasm>

Compensation should match your expectations. </sarcasm>

Re:I work in Canada

[plague3106]

I am university educated and in the US, and except for /., I never see CV. It's always resume.

Re:I work in Canada

[plague3106]

No idiot would ask someone to act as a reference if they weren't going to give a positive review.

So.. why do you maintain that references are essential?

Re:I work in Canada

[Abcd1234]

Again, this is why you do a proper interview with the reference, to dredge up any biases. And, of course, you don't rely on a single reference... at least two or three reference checks, a manager, a peer, and possibly a character reference, should be the minimum.

Re:I work in Canada

[plague3106]

What bias can you hope to uncover? You already asserted (quite correctly, I think) that no applicant will give a reference unless they know they will get a good one. So I don't think it matters if you ask for one or three.. you're going to get ones that are going to be favorable.

Re:I work in Canada

[Abcd1234]

So, which would you prefer: believing only the applicant's bullshit, or at least getting a few extra data points?

Honestly, I don't know what you're arguing here. Yes, when you interview a reference, you're going to get their perspective, and it might be skewed. But if you ask the right questions, you'll get insight into an employee you otherwise wouldn't get. Meanwhile, professional references are far less likely to be prone to blind bias (they're professionals, after all), so you're likely to get useful experiential data from them.

The only thing I can figure is that you're arguing that reference checks are useless due to bias. But that is, frankly, silly. You'll *never* find out the real truth about an employee prior to hiring them. But the more data you can add to the mix ahead of time, the more likely you are to uncover issues with the prospective applicant that might otherwise go undiscovered until after you've already hired them.

Re:I work in Canada

[plague3106]

So, which would you prefer: believing only the applicant's bullshit, or at least getting a few extra data points?

I think the problem is that you believe applicants are only "bullshitting" you. I wouldn't want to work in your company, because my resume has no BS on it.

Honestly, I don't know what you're arguing here. Yes, when you interview a reference, you're going to get their perspective, and it might be skewed. But if you ask the right questions, you'll get insight into an employee you otherwise wouldn't get. Meanwhile, professional references are far less likely to be prone to blind bias (they're professionals, after all), so you're likely to get useful experiential data from them.

You assume that a professional reference couldn't also be a personal one. Also, the norm now seems to be that references will only answer "yes, they worked here." That's been the policy told to all employees in every company in which I've worked.

The only thing I can figure is that you're arguing that reference checks are useless due to bias. But that is, frankly, silly. You'll *never* find out the real truth about an employee prior to hiring them. But the more data you can add to the mix ahead of time, the more likely you are to uncover issues with the prospective applicant that might otherwise go undiscovered until after you've already hired them.

Your argument seems to be that applicants lie, and so will references (because as you said, no smart applicant will give a bad reference to you). But you think that somehow combining the two yields something worth while?

If you think everyone you're talking to in the interview process is biased then what is the point of adding more biased people to the process?

Re:I work in Canada

[Abcd1234]

I think the problem is that you believe applicants are only "bullshitting" you.

No, I think *all* applicants are there to sell themselves. Sometimes this involves flat out lying. More often than not, it involves sugarcoating things, and cherrypicking, so you only see the best information. And I guarantee you most people have a skewed image of themselves and their abilities (both to the positive and negative). Additional datapoints can help provide a more well-rounded picture.

Of course, if you've ever been involved in the interview process, you should already know these things, so I can only assume you haven't.

You assume that a professional reference couldn't also be a personal one.

Not at all, but nice strawman.

Also, the norm now seems to be that references will only answer "yes, they worked here." That's been the policy told to all employees in every company in which I've worked.

Which is why you don't ask for a reference from the person on behalf of the company. Many people are willing to give references, as a superior or co-worker, so long as it's clear the reference is not given as an officer of the company (thus freeing the company from liability).

Your argument seems to be that applicants lie, and so will references (because as you said, no smart applicant will give a bad reference to you). But you think that somehow combining the two yields something worth while?

No, as I said above, my argument is that applicants sell themselves. A proper set of questions to one or more references can help to identify those cases so you get a more well-rounded picture of the applicant. Well, unless there's an organized conspiracy between the applicant and their references, but I'm willing to believe that's normally not the case.

Honestly, is this really that hard to understand?

Recruiters in Australia

[daliman]

Seeing as you know the Australian market, and I've recently arrived here - what are the hoops here? The biggest challenge I have is finding a technically competent recruiter; many I've spoken to are fine so long as you repeat buzz words, but if you try to explain anything more complex, their eyes glaze over...

I've got a contract for the moment, but it's up in another month or so... Your experiences here would be useful.

Re:Recruiters in Australia

[ZenJabba1]

Which part of Australia... I have some good recruiters I use to look for people.

Re:Recruiters in Australia

[MichaelSmith]

I work and have always lived in Melbourne. I have never met or heard of a technically competent recruiter. They don't exist.

The company I work for is always hiring. Qualified staff are very hard to find. The fact that so many of them have a hard time getting past the recruitment agency probably doesn't help.

Let me know if you want a job. I get a finders bonus as well.

Re:Recruiters in Australia

[laptop006]

Depends where you are. Here in Melbourne there's plenty going, a lot of stuff is advertised on the major job sites (JobNet, Seek, MyCareer), and as for the rest you have to build up contacts. User groups are a quick way to do that (For the major lugs see http://linux.org.au/usergroups).

And what you do. If you are willing to be a PHP programmer and have a decent resume you could have half a dozen (good!) offers within two days, the combination of Cisco and Windows seems to be the big one for sysadmin type stuff at the moment.

Re:Recruiters in Australia

[DiSKiLLeR]

ZOMG if I move to Melbourne get me a job :) Adelaide is such a hole, though I have a job I absolutely love.

Its more than likely I will be moving country to NZ, however... but who knows where I may end up.

Re:Recruiters in Australia

[MichaelSmith]

Seriously. We have a big demand for people who can do real time java, C and Ada on *nix. Its in a central location in Melbourne.

We do get a lot of people coming over from Adelaide.

Ummm Okay slashdot@netapps.com.au

I can afford to have that address in the open for a while. I won't use it again.

Re:Recruiters in Australia

[thegrassyknowl]

Some recruiters are ex-technical people and understand the business but most don't

I have found that no recruiters are ex-technical people. Some may have had lacky roles in technical companies before leaving but none I have ever dealt with, either as an employer or potential employee, knew more than the latest manager babble words.

In my last position I was tasked with finding qualified Unix engineers, programmers, sysadmins. We got zillions of resumes from people who were... well... useless. CVs full of "XP this and Vista that and Microsoft this and web2.0 that" came in but only two with any real skill. Half of the ones the recruiters sent in were basically non-computer people who filled in "I can use Microsoft blah" and got put in the "computer jobs" bin.

A resume full of buzzwords will get you through recruiters but it won't get you very far if the people looking are technical themselves.

The best advice that was ever given to me when considering an O/S job was to actually get on a plane and spend as much time there as you can. See the sights, the neighbourhoods and talk to the locals. Walk into recruiters and give them your resume; tell them you're thinking of moving to the area in the next 6 months; they'll get it out there because they get paid their cut. If you have the money and the leave at your current position do just that.

Also, try and get a decent job now. A lot of employers are happy about covering your moving costs if they think you're going to be a good long term hire. That's a two-edged sword. If you get a job that pays for you to move you might be contracted to stay there for a minimum period with a costly exit clause.

Re:Recruiters in Australia

[Xiroth]

Yeah, I can certainly certify that PHP developers are insanely in demand here in Melbourne - I've been involved in recruiting for a couple of positions, and it's ridiculously rare to find anyone with a grasp of Computer Science basics, let alone any OO architecture knowledge (if you're looking for a senior). Personal experience says that if you've got a good grasp of the field, you can name your price - I can get pretty close to 6 figures, and I haven't even hit 25 years old yet (with, admittedly, some unusual experience, given I've built and led a team once already).

Re:Recruiters in Australia

[Corporate Troll]

CVs full of "XP this and Vista that and Microsoft this and web2.0 that" came in but only two with any real skill.

And what exactly do you expect me to tell you if I've been doing Java on Windows (deployed usually on Solaris) for the last ten years? Some of us just slid in such positions, and try to get out. I have extensive Linux and OpenBSD skills because that's what I do at home, but I cannot provide a single professional reference to that.

You'd essentially get my CV and think "another one of those useless guys"... Have you ever considered that at least some of those people try to get out of the Microsoft lock-in and do have some skills but simply didn't ever get a chance proving it?

I'm just saying because I'm one of those guys with what you consider a crap CV and I try to make it up in my cover letter. So far, nobody ever replied. Sure, recruiters call me, but there it stops.

The tip that most people give is that you should contribute to an open source project and get your name out. Fair enough.... That's about the only thing I can do about it and I doubt I'd get taken seriously by you even if I did.

Re:Recruiters in Australia

[jonwil]

Here in Perth, I have found that often people seem to be more willing to wait for someone who has worked in the industry for 3 years (and has 1-2 years doing work with the specific technology that they are using) than to hire someone with skills but no industry experience (like me) and train them up.
Getting a programming job in Perth with no prior commercial programming experience is almost impossible :(

Re:Recruiters in Australia

[scotartt]

The biggest challenge I have is finding a technically competent recruiter; many I've spoken to are fine so long as you repeat buzz words, but if you try to explain anything more complex, their eyes glaze over...

Recruiters here are extremely variable. Some are really shit and others quite good. Still, every decent *permanent* position (as opposed to a contract) I've ever got in 15 years of programming work was direct to the advertising employer and not a recruiter.

Most recruiters are nothing more than not-very-competent pattern matchers (customer says java hibernate, resume says java hibernate, is match send to customer). In my experience, avoid Hays especially. They are woeful. Try to steer to the specialist IT recruiters, but you'll still find the field extremely variable. They are rarely, if not ever, technical. But if you find one that works for you and you like contract work, stick with them as much as possible.

If you are looking for permanent work my advice is to put an automated email daily job alert on a couple of the career boards (e.g. seek, mycareer, careerone, etc), get to know all your relevant user & special interest groups, and use google to find companies that use the technology or business space you work in or would like to work in and have a look through their web site to find if they have jobs going.

Re:Recruiters in Australia

[daliman]

Perth is where I am, actually. I've got a decent quantity of experience, having graduated in 2002 and working since then. But having to deal with recruiters at all was new to me - in Wellington and Christchurch where I've worked in the past, they're a minority; most jobs are advertised directly.

In the end, I spoke to a few and eventually found some people that I got along well with; a small company, I was interviewed by the CEO, as the main IT recruiter was off overseas. But the guy had come into the industry from a software engineering background and seemed to know the scene well.

The problem was that this seemed to be the exception rather than the norm. Perth has a huge undersupply of workers at the moment and the biggest hurdle to getting a job seemed to be talking your way past a recruiter so that you could get to the people that wanted to hire you!

Re:Recruiters in Australia

[daliman]

Really? I'm working with PHP here, as it turns out, although my background is more in C (although I've been using PHP for about 6 years now as well).

There doesn't seem to be much of a market for PHP out here in Perth, although more of there is one for C...

If I could actually search on seek for "C" jobs without hitting a mess of "C++" or "C#" jobs, perhaps I could find them ;)

Re:Recruiters in Australia

[williamhb]

Which part of Australia... I have some good recruiters I use to look for people.

Which ones, and also what are the reasons you've found those ones to be particularly good? (I'm not the original poster, but I happen to be scoping out a possible move back to Aus, Brisbane preferably but perhaps Sydney or Melbourne, for family reasons.)

Re:Recruiters in Australia

[SuperQ]

That's what the "Objectives" and "Recreation" seconds of the CV are for.

I would be perfectly happy to see "OMG get me out of this Microsoft hell hole" as the first line of the CV. :-)

Re:Recruiters in Australia

[thegrassyknowl]

You'd essentially get my CV and think "another one of those useless guys"...

Not necessarily. If you have a resume full of Microsoft buzzwords ("I know XP, Vista, 32-bit, 64-bit, MFC, C#, ActiveX, DirectX, yadda yadda) I'd toss it.

If you demonstrated that you had bona-fide experience with whatever technology I was interested in and other useful qualities I'd likely put you in the shortlist to maybe get an interview.

I don't need my time wasted by people who have little real experience in anything but litter their resume with a bunch of buzzwords.

Secondly: if you have Linux and Unix experience by using it at home that is perfectly welcome in your resume. Just because you didn't get paid to do it doesn't mean you're not good at it. In fact, if see a resume that says that someone dabbles in those things then I am more likely to bring them in because it is likely that it's an interesting hobby for the rather than a means to an end.

Re:Recruiters in Australia

[jaxtherat]

Michael Page in Sydney have a department specialising in IT. They're relatively young and above average in dealing with IT recruitment:

http://www.michaelpage.com.au/

YMMV of course :)

Re:Recruiters in Australia

[grs1961]

This is with Thales, I assume?

Re:Recruiters in Australia

[grs1961]

Michael Page in Sydney have a department specialising in IT. They're relatively young and above average in dealing with IT recruitment: They are hardly *young*. And they deal with the financial end of town, long-haired geeks and Linux weenies just confuse them.

Re:Recruiters in Australia

[jaxtherat]

Ahem, I'm a (formerly) long haired, (currently) a Linux weenie, but I scrub up nicely. I had no problems with them as a result.

I don't think ANY recruiters or hiring managers for that matter will fare well with some sort of horrific nerd casualty like Melvin from Office Space.

Also, the financial end of town is actually one of the largest employers of IT workers, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

Like I said, as recently as 18 months ago (when I last went to them), Michael Page had a department dealing solely with IT recruitment. The 4 staff I personally know there (them calling me with position offers etc...) average ~25 years old and have some sort of IT background.

Re:Recruiters in Australia

[CypherOz]

Adelaide is such a hole, though I have a job I absolutely love. I've worked in Perth, Sydney and Melbourne as well as Adelaide. Adelaide has so much going for it - like NO traffic (compared with others), brilliant lifestyle, great food/wine etc. You need to find a better social group!

Re:Recruiters in Australia

[Corporate Troll]

To be honest, it's most likely a regional thing. I have complained about this many times and I do have "personal experience" on my CV. However, in my country this really seems to have a negative impact. I never once had someone actually even ask about it and I only get called for Java jobs (mainly because of my "experience" I guess).

You can always take a look at my resume. Positive criticism is always welcomed.

I wasn't attacking you personally, I was just ranting because I've been trying to get a Unix job for sooooo long, that it's becoming frustrating. (Okay, last contract work was Linux/C development, but now it's back to Java/Windows... *sigh*)

Re:Recruiters in Australia

[Corporate Troll]

I have those on my resume... I have never had anyone even ask about those. (Okay, not the "objectives" as this doesn't seem to be a usual point in my country. That's what the cover letter is for.)

I tried the "OMG" sentence in a more civilized version. Somehow, I never got a reply on *that* once ;-))

Re:Recruiters in Australia

[MichaelSmith]

Do I know you?

Re:Recruiters in Australia

[Xiroth]

Hmm, given your background, do you work procedually with PHP or using OO methods? All of the decent senior positions that I've seen/been involved in have required a high degree of familiarity with OO development (design patterns, etc.). I'm sure there's procedual positions out there, but they're much rarer.

But yes, there is a definite drought of competent PHP developers here. If you've got a half-way decent resume, you'll get an interview for every position you apply for, in my experience.

Re:Recruiters in Australia

[j-pimp]

And what exactly do you expect me to tell you if I've been doing Java on Windows (deployed usually on Solaris) for the last ten years? Some of us just slid in such positions, and try to get out. I have extensive Linux and OpenBSD skills because that's what I do at home, but I cannot provide a single professional reference to that.

I know I sound like a stupid American ignorant of the wole C.V. thing, but is there no way to list your hobby experience on your C.V.? If not why not a cover letter? I mean if I was a .NET shop I'd want people with .NET experience. However, some shops are multiple technology shops. For that I'd be interested in a candidate that had professional experience in one of our technologies, and hobby experience in another. I'd also like someone that was a hobbyist on technologies other than what they do professionally because it shows they are not stuck in one mindset. They will adapt.

Re:Recruiters in Australia

[Corporate Troll]

but is there no way to list your hobby experience on your C.V.?

[...]

If not why not a cover letter?

There is and I do both: I write these things in my cover lettre and they are mentioned on my resume. I don't know why it doesn't interest anyone in my geographical area.

The only thing that seems to count is work experience. That and eventually your degree, but work experience comes first. I have a degree in computer science, I'm not "just merely" a Java coder.

It's like when I sent my resume for an sysadmin position that had to talk and write French, English and Dutch. The last one is hard around here, but I talk and write Dutch. I got back the reply "too senior". Yeah, well, no shit! However, you ain't gonna find anyone with the conditions you set. They just don't seem to think further than their conditions and those must be met exactly.

Re:Recruiters in Australia

[molarmass192]

That "home" experience counts *if* you really contribute to those projects. I have several open source projects that I participate in on resume, and it's listed as such. I'm lucky, I had a window (no pun intended) to slide into a Linux / Java role about 8 years ago and I've never looked back. That said, pick an open source project that needs help, and submit bugfixes / patches or even just provide help on the mail lists once in a while. All that goodness is easily Google-able and as such CV-able.

Re:Recruiters in Australia

[daliman]

Procedurally in the main; I'm bugfixing/enhancing existing PHP4 apps at the moment. I guess I'll brush up on the OO stuff :) We worked mainly with Java back at uni, with a few courses involving design patterns, but that's a good few years back now!

Re:Recruiters in Australia

[Doug Neal]

I have a short "personal statement" at the end of my CV, just a couple of hundred words saying what I'm about and what I'm looking for, work-wise. It's a good catch-all section where you can put in anything that doesn't fit neatly under any of the other headings.

I also have a concise bullet-pointed list of "key skills" near the top, before the work history, where I list all the things I'm good at and the technologies I'm familiar with. It immediately gives the person who's going through a huge pile of CVs an at-a-glance picture, which should really catch their attention. That's my theory, anyway.

Re:Recruiters in Australia

[grs1961]

Do I know you? No - but I've applied there a few times, never managed to get an interview, I think the 25 or so years UNIX experience seems to put them off!

Re:Recruiters in Australia

[MichaelSmith]

If you can send me your resume I would be happy to take it to the appropriate people.

Re:Recruiters in Australia

[lordlod]

A few years ago I restructured my CV to deal specifically with this problem.

In my imagination recruitment monkeys are sitting there with the job requirements that reads "Must have experience in C, Perl and embedded devices" and a stack of CVs. (Though more likely it's a search for "C AND Perl AND embedded").

If my CV has something like, experience with low level languages such as C and assembler, ... extensive scripting experience on Unix based systems etc. I'm just going to get thrown in the bin.

So half a page of my CV is a list of languages and other areas I know. It doesn't mean a great deal but if I've used a language for a while I list it there. That way the recruitment monkey can easily tick their boxes and I move on to the second round.

The second page of the CV starts going into my work experience, systems I've dealt with etc. On the second page I assume a knowledgeable reader and talk about the style of work and tasks rather than worrying about the recruitment monkey or their word search.

Just do it

[MantiX]

Mate, things work pretty similar the world over for an engineer, the research you need to do is more so with visa and living arrangements.

In terms of your work, the situation is mostly the same, be it Canada, UK, Australia, in that you are expected to hold a professional attitude, and be good with your work. You will find Australians have strong work ethic reputations abroad, so you need to back that up.

Short of that, you merely need to be resourceful, and you don't necessarily need to go through recruiters. Get your resume up to speed, make sure it is within 2 pages so as not to waste others time, and advertise your skills and project work so as to give potential employment a good honest run down on your skillset.

Print it out 20-50 times, and go walk through the front door in professional attire and give it to reception, possibly ask to see if they are seeking help.

With a skills shortage of competent engineers, you will gain employment fast, and gain the margin a recruiter normally takes.

Every top 500 needs engineers, and google for the integration/IT comms companies in your city of settlement.

If you work with specialist sectors like network/comms, speak to the local distributors to find out what integrators work with those products.

Hope this helps.

MantiX
IT CEO.

Re:Just do it

[Peil]

Here in the UK the reputation of some of the nationalities can be summed up as follows:

Aussies - Loud, but nothing you can't deal with, borderline alcoholics, willing to get the job done as soon as. Frequently complain about the weather

South Africans - Loud, arrogant sods - Why did they all leave to come and work in 'this rainy shithole' - you'll never get a straight answer. Can also be spotted by the conversation starter of "Wheneyes" as in "Wheneyes back in Cape Town"

Kiwis - Often mistaken for Aussies, but eventually their inability to stop stroking woollen garments comes to the fore.

Brits - Lazy, opinionated, unfit, wondering why we work 40 hrs a week when we could have sat on the dole instead.

Re:Just do it

[guilheb]

Print it out 20-50 times, and go walk through the front door in professional attire and give it to reception, possibly ask to see if they are seeking help. I have to disagree on that one. I did exactly just that 3.5 years ago in Quebec City (Canada) and it didn't work out. I had all personalized resumes for each place, I dressed nice, and gave out probably 30+ resumes. I didn't get a single phone call.

I also sent my resume via email at places that had offers posted on their website (or some other job-hunting website). I was called twice for interviews. I'm still working for the second company.

During my second interview, I mentionned to the interviewer (who is now my boss) that I had dropped my resume there a few weeks before (there were no open jobs at that moment). When I saw the job on the internet, I sent back my resume. He said he wasn't aware of that and he didn't have my first resume anymore (he probably threw it away).

I came to the conclusion that the best way to search for IT jobs was by either:
1. visiting companies and asking to speak for the person responsible for hiring.
2. hunting the web and applying directly for specific jobs.

But that's just my personal experience.

I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move count

[DiSKiLLeR]

I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move countries too!

Canada and New Zealand are the two places I have been seriously considering, and it looks like Auckland, New Zealand has won me over. (I have a really close friend there for one, and NZ is a beautiful country.)

I'm a Software Engineer and Systems Administrator in my current role. Anyway, guess I should read what people post as that stuff my apply to me too ;).

I bet Americans are wondering why on earth we would want to leave Australia.....

#1: Beware of Moose

[dangitman]

They are known to drop from the trees and surprise foreigners with deadly force.

Re:#1: Beware of Moose

[stonertom]

#1: Beware of Moose (Score:5, Insightful) by dangitman (862676) Alter Relationship on Sunday June 01, @09:41AM (#23615699) They are known to drop from the trees and surprise foreigners with deadly force. Looks like the mods today skipped biologyâ¦

Re:#1: Beware of Moose

[MichaelSmith]

#1: Beware of Moose (Score:5, Insightful) by dangitman (862676) Alter Relationship on Sunday June 01, @09:41AM (#23615699) They are known to drop from the trees and surprise foreigners with deadly force. Looks like the mods today skipped biology Let me tell you about the Australian hoopsnake.

Re:#1: Beware of Moose

[definate]

You mean like drop bears? We know all about drop bears in Australia.

That's why when Yanks that aren't used to drop bears come to the forests out here, we make sure they wear a helmet.

That and it is funny.

Re:#1: Beware of Moose

[dangitman]

You mean like drop bears? We know all about drop bears in Australia.

Sure, Australians know about drop bears, but these are Moose! Much heavier.

Re:#1: Beware of Moose

[Fred_A]

They are known to drop from the trees and surprise foreigners with deadly force. A Møøse once bit my sister...

Re:#1: Beware of Moose

[MortenMW]

That's nothing compared to the Norwegian blue parrot! It's always so calm that it's scary

Re:#1: Beware of Moose

[Eudial]

You mean like drop bears? We know all about drop bears in Australia.

Sure, Australians know about drop bears, but these are Moose! Much heavier.

Not to mention they have sharp antlers!

Re:#1: Beware of Moose

[Pig Hogger]

And the... droppings, too...

Re:#1: Beware of Moose

[daliman]

Aaaah, just like the drop bear out here in Australia. I'm sure an Aussie will be able to handle a moose dropping from the trees without batting an eyelid.

Re:#1: Beware of Moose

[ColdWetDog]

øne bit my sister ...

My experience

[jmv]

I'm a Canadian who spent three years in Australia and I'm returning to Canada next month. I actually found a job back in Canada by applying online and doing interviews over the phone. I don't really know much about any "hoops" you have to go through in Australia, but can't think of anything really important to know when applying in Canada (OK, can't say for anything other than Montreal). I've pretty much dealt directly with companies, so I don't know how it is with recruiters.

Re:Huh?

[mrbluze]

That's a very broad and vague question. That's a very broad and vague comment.

always, Always, ALWAYS, talk to a lawyer...

[trims]

Moving to another country, you need to familiarize yourself with the important laws and assumptions that are being made there. So, go direct to the source: find a reputable lawyer to talk to, and swallow the few $100 it will cost for several hours of his time. And, that's a LAWYER IN THE COUNTRY YOU ARE MOVING TO.

There are a variety of different topics you will want to discuss, so you might need to talk to more than one lawyer. BUT DO IT. You are no longer a visitor, so you need to understand the ins and outs of the local legal system.

Here's some topics that are important:

• Work rules and labor laws. What exactly are the conditions of your visa, how much can you work, what is expected, what can be negotiated, etc. This varies even by state here in the US, so don't assume you know anything.
• Housing regulations. What are renter protections and responsibilities? Does and Don'ts of your landlord? And general property law.
• Free Speech Regulations. What can (and can't) be said, whether out loud, in front of your boss, or on-line.
• Liability. How is liability handled?
• Local court system. How does the criminal justice system work, and what are your rights under it (particularly, as a foreigner)? How does the civil system work?
• Family Law. Can you marry? What if you already are? Divorce? How are your kids required to behave?

These are but the most important I can cite off the top of my head. It's more than worth the cost of a short lawyer consultation, and you might even be able to get a good conversation out of one on the cheap (like, offer to pay for a good dinner and drinks out, since there's not going to be any paperwork or case, it's just a consultation).

Knowing the lay of the land is by far the most important thing to find out. Getting the inside scoop from an expert is the fastest, best way to do it.

-Erik

Re:always, Always, ALWAYS, talk to a lawyer...

[KillerLoop]

One of the creepiest comments I've read in a long time...

Re:always, Always, ALWAYS, talk to a lawyer...

[WarwickRyan]

>$100 it will cost for several hours of his time.

You're missing a 0 from that.

For the record, I've moved countries, and I found all the information that was needed by talking to my destination's embassy in my own country.

They were happy to help, send everything via email and also answered my questions via email.

For more general information, and social stuff I found http://www.expatica.com/ to be a good resource. Googling for country-specific forums also found a place to find information which wasn't so obvious - like good local plumbers and flat shares.

My move was UK to Netherlands so it was easier as far as visas were confirmed (don't need one), but harder because of the language difference (which I've now solved by learning).

Re:always, Always, ALWAYS, talk to a lawyer...

[Vectronic]

He's probably a lawyer, looking for work.

Re:always, Always, ALWAYS, talk to a lawyer...

[OAB_X]

Canada is basically identical to Australia in terms of laws (British Common Law Countries), and most of the laws are federal ones that deal with all the major issues (the criminal and civil codes are all federal, except Quebec).

Minor varriations in realestate rules exist, but those are both provincial and municipal level things, so just any lawyer wouldn't do. The federal government has education programs and resources online as well, however those would mostly be of help from someone not from a Common Law country.

@OP: There is no Work Choices legislation in Canada. Oh, and learn the slang. No-one calls it a 'ute' here, it's a pickup.

Re:always, Always, ALWAYS, talk to a lawyer...

[trims]

The embassy (or consulate) in your original country is a great place to start, and indeed should cover a wide swath of general things. I should have suggested that, too.

However, talking to a lawyer to get the important details is, well, important. I've never found a consulate that really was useful for anything more than tourist-style advice. Even embassies are not geared toward the kind of detailed info you really should have as a private citizen. Sure, if you're interested in investing (or starting a company), then an embassy is going to be really helpful. But their resources are limited, and getting the kind of info I'm referring to is something they don't have immediately on-hand. And, generally, they aren't going to care enough about 1 visitor to make the extra mile effort.

And, no, despite what everyone likes to say, a good standard lawyer will cost you $100 per hour or so, especially if you look around. Remember, it's the high-end of the lawyer profession that gets the big bucks and attention. I've consulted lawyers here in Silicon Valley, for rates under $100/hour. My parents in rural America can get rates at $50/hour or less.

Remember, you are not asking for help on a case or problem. You're just asking for a summary of local laws. It's relatively quick and simple for a lawyer to do so, and, like I said, it's often easy to get them talking over dinner.

-Erik

Re:always, Always, ALWAYS, talk to a lawyer...

[Albert Sandberg]

Free Speech Regulations. What can (and can't) be said, whether out loud, in front of your boss, or on-line.

That scares me the most.

Re:always, Always, ALWAYS, talk to a lawyer...

[Anonymous Coward]

I've moved countries too, a couple of times. I've found the best technique is to arm yourself with a good sense of humour then stumble your way into the country making snap decisions as you go. I mean c'mon! You wanna suck all the fun out of it??

Oh, get a local girlfriend as quick as you can, that usually clears up any minor details you missed on your first pass.

Bonne chance!

Re:always, Always, ALWAYS, talk to a lawyer...

[thegrassyknowl]

Why not find their local embassy in your home country and ask all the questions there? Yes, this goes for anyone anywhere.

If the country you're moving to has an embassy (most of the bigger ones whose names you already know have one) then you should be able to find it.

They are cheaper than a lawyer and they'll probably give you more user friendly advice. Lawyers tend to use a lot of costly words.

Re:always, Always, ALWAYS, talk to a lawyer...

[skrolle2]

You forgot this point:

Knowing the culture of the country you are moving to, for example how lawyers are viewed and what they are used for there.

To me, the advice of getting a lawyer seems completely overkill, everything you need to know is on a number of government websites anyway?

Re:always, Always, ALWAYS, talk to a lawyer...

[indigest]

Let me guess...you're a lawyer!

Re:always, Always, ALWAYS, talk to a lawyer...

[aaaaaaargh!]

Indeed a strange comment. (Can you mary? Oh c'mon...) You can look up the regulations from the web pages and make a dossier of the things you need to do. In some countries, there is also some free or low-fee migration help by non-profit organizations.

Re:always, Always, ALWAYS, talk to a lawyer...

[owlnation]

Spoken like a true lawyer. And it's nonsense too.

I've moved countries several times -- not just to English speaking ones. Most western laws are basically similar. Assuming you are not going to be doing anything unethical, pay your bills, and generally behave reasonably, you've no need to talk to a lawyer -- ever. Though you'll probably find that most countries (except the UK and Ireland) don't binge-drink as much alcohol as the average Australian, and have much less tolerance for drunken behavior -- that might get you into trouble.

Also never underestimate the power of the "stupid foreigner" card. You can get away with a lot using that, more so in non-English speaking countries.

Re:always, Always, ALWAYS, talk to a lawyer...

[martin-boundary]

He's probably a lawyer, looking for work.

The local regulations on Slashdot prohibit soliciting work for any member of the legal profession. This is clearly laid out in Regulation 47(b), Section 12, Paragraph 2, as amended in Appendix 14, Section 7, Paragraph 1 of the Slashdot Code Of Conduct Manual, Third Revised Edition of 2007. There are plenty of slashdot members who could have informed him of that for $100-$200.

Re:always, Always, ALWAYS, talk to a lawyer...

[SpzToid]

My move was UK to Netherlands so it was easier as far as visas were confirmed (don't need one), but harder because of the language difference (which I've now solved by learning). But isn't finding a place to actually live, in the densely populated Netherlands difficult? How did you manage *that* hurdle, which you have failed to mention? (And I wonder how it compares to the UK?)

As tough as learning Dutch is, housing is a tough nut to crack, in Holland.

Re:always, Always, ALWAYS, talk to a lawyer...

[maxume]

It is more than 500 miles from here to Washington DC. I might be able to ask embassies questions over the phone or email for less than it would cost to deal with a lawyer, but I certainly can't go to them and ask questions for cheap.

Re:always, Always, ALWAYS, talk to a lawyer...

[lawd5]

The following web page from Citizenship and Immigration Canada seems pretty helpful: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/newcomers/before-info.asp.

Re:always, Always, ALWAYS, talk to a lawyer...

[WarwickRyan]

Lived with my fiancee's family at first, then we bought our own house.

Renting pretty easy too, and if you're really deseperate you can live for upto 3 months in holiday homes..

Re:always, Always, ALWAYS, talk to a lawyer...

[Mr_Icon]

Yeah, completely unnecessary. Unless you're moving to a place that is drastically different in terms of laws and culture (e.g. China, Japan, or Middle East), talking to a lawyer is a complete overkill. In your case, since you're moving from one member of the British Commonwealth (Australia) to another (Canada), you'll find the laws pretty much identical, with slight local variations (exception in Canada is Quebec, which has a civil code).

Move to Vancouver, then go to Chapters and buy a quick reference on Canadian Law. Will cost you $20 instead of $2000.

Re:always, Always, ALWAYS, talk to a lawyer...

[WarwickRyan]

>My move was UK to Netherlands so it was easier as far as visas were confirmed

Confirmed should be concerned. It's Sunday and my brain's not turned on ;)

Re:always, Always, ALWAYS, talk to a lawyer...

[xaxa]

In densly populated South-East England people are moving around so much that finding a place to live is very easy. I've never tried it, but you could book a room for a week in a hotel/hostel in London and have a flat/house by the end of the week. Allowing longer will give you more choice and flexibility.

(I only have experience of this as a student. There are "student houses" in London, where the landlord always leases them to students. There are also normal houses, and my student-friends renting those were generally asked to start paying the rent on the place within a month, at most.
My lease for this place ends at the end of the month. The people who are continuing to live in London will probably start looking for places about now.)

Gumtree is the site for London property.

(Important: applies only to London! Everywhere else in the UK is like a different country...)

Re:always, Always, ALWAYS, talk to a lawyer...

[xaxa]

http://www.embassyhomepage.com/ lists 130 embassies in London, and I know they're missing some (e.g. Belize). How do I choose...

In actual response to your comment, for really big countries there might be a second embassy somewhere nearer. For instance, the US Embassy is in London, but they also have Consulates in Edinburgh, Belfast and Cardiff.
I may be falling into the common European trap of not realising just how huge the USA is here, I now suspect that 500 miles is just the next state...

Re:always, Always, ALWAYS, talk to a lawyer...

[david_bonn]

Probably the thing you left out is about taxes.

I had a consulting gig in Canada set up. Spiffy hourly rate of $165. The problem was that the IRS wanted 40 percent and Revenue Canada wanted 60 percent. That didn't seem such a good deal.

The real problem was that I asked the wrong people and they were clueless. The actual bite ended up being quite a bit less (even counting the nice people I paid to make this possible).

Re:always, Always, ALWAYS, talk to a lawyer...

[SpzToid]

--> gumtree is the site for London property

That's a fascinating read! I tried to repay in-kind, only the Dutch realtor's site (http://www.nvm.nl) is now closed from the public internet. It was open the last time I looked, a loooong time ago. (Now it's login-only, like the USA realtor's public listings, discussed on slashdot a few days ago).

From my understanding, realtors are to the Dutch, what lawyers are to the Americans. No doubt due to the population density, and the competitiveness for decent housing in Holland.

Re:always, Always, ALWAYS, talk to a lawyer...

[maxume]

The northern midwest actually. Michigan. I'm pretty sure I gave the straight line distance, driving would be further. Looking here, for Australia (I didn't think of searching for 'consulate' earlier):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_diplomatic_missions

I could go to Chicago instead of DC, so it would only be a 260 mile trip, one way.

Re:always, Always, ALWAYS, talk to a lawyer...

[daliman]

This is the first time I've felt the need for a +1 Scary moderation option...

Re:always, Always, ALWAYS, talk to a lawyer...

[j_sp_r]

Funda.nl has the NVM houses online

Re:always, Always, ALWAYS, talk to a lawyer...

[xaxa]

I should add -- Gumtree.com isn't official in any way. It's simply the most popular site for private landlords to advertise property (mostly people with a spare house or two). Looking through, it seems letting agencies etc also advertise (unless Debbie's email address really is "cityproperty@...").

Re:always, Always, ALWAYS, talk to a lawyer...

[ColdWetDog]

This is the first time I've felt the need for a +1 Scary moderation option...

Typically "scary" stuff is modded "insightful" (or "flamebait" if the mod is really upset). Spend more time in yro and you'll see this pretty consistently. Welcome to the New World! (Same as the Old World).

Re:always, Always, ALWAYS, talk to a lawyer...

[daliman]

Unfortunately sometimes the scary is insightful...

Re:always, Always, ALWAYS, talk to a lawyer...

[uniquegeek]

Don't be so paranoid. It's really a non-issue unless you're running around screaming something blatantly inciteful and violent, like "KILL ALL MEMBERS OF THAT RACE!!!" Despite having this law, we're a lot more free than most countries right now.

Re:always, Always, ALWAYS, talk to a lawyer...

[pbaer]

You should already know that BEFORE you immigrate to another country. Waiting until after you are there is detrimental and counter-intuitive, as the reason you're immigrating is for a better quality of life. If you don't know if it is better to live in country X over country Y, then why are you leaving X for Y?

Re:always, Always, ALWAYS, talk to a lawyer...

[raju1kabir]

Moving to another country, you need to familiarize yourself with the important laws and assumptions that are being made there. So, go direct to the source: find a reputable lawyer to talk to, and swallow the few $100 it will cost for several hours of his time. And, that's a LAWYER IN THE COUNTRY YOU ARE MOVING TO.

Pfft.

I've moved all over the place - Europe, Asia, Africa, the Middle East, North America, Australia. Unless you are given to starting fistfights on the street or screaming obscenities at passing royalty, you'll find out everything you need to know, right about when you need to know it. Just make friends, talk to people, read the newspapers. And above all, keep your eyes open and exercise common sense. It's not all that hard (or scary).

Re:always, Always, ALWAYS, talk to a lawyer...

[InakaBoyJoe]

I agree, although you might be hard up to find a single lawyer who can answer *all* those questions at once...

In any case, since the OP mentioned (s)he's moving to Vancouver, the BC Bar Association's Lawyer Referral Service might be handy.
http://www.cba.org/bc/initiatives/main/lawyer_referral.aspx

Those $25 consultations were some of the best money I spent during my time as an American "expat" in Canada. And the contact details of the lawyers I met will really come in handy in the future should the need arise.

Re:always, Always, ALWAYS, talk to a lawyer...

[ryszard99]

i moved from australia to NL 6 years ago. i found the language wasnt really much of a problem because most ppl here speak english better than i do. :-)

for me the saving grace moving to a non native english language country (NNELC) was the international brands of things. you may not be able to read the label, but the packaging looks the same.

another question i get a lot (even now) was why i wanted to move from australia to NL. for me it was work and only work (dot bomb era, no jobs in AU)

I'm really glad i made the move. my life is much richer for it and my experiences so much more varied. i'm heading back to australia permy in the coming three months, and i'm extremely sad to leave as i now consider EU to be my home (i'm moving back to AU for family reasons).

Re:always, Always, ALWAYS, talk to a lawyer...

[algoa456]

Are you a lawyer? I've moved countries several times and the last person I ever bothered with was a lawyer. Never had the need for one when moving....

Job references in the UK

[Alain Williams]

Many companies in the UK now give references of the form: ''he worked for us starting XXX until YYY.'' Nothing else. The reason is that someone sued because of a bad reference, so HR departments are now scared to say anything at all.

The sort of reason that we would do better with fewer lawyers in this world.

Re:Job references in the UK

[Anonymous Coward]

There is another point of Law in the UK. (or so I was advised by a lawyer). If someone is dismissed because under performance or other such cause; then it must be disclosed in the reference or otherwise the company not so stating in the reference is liable for any costs the company asking for the reference incurs if the employee "re-offends".

Re:Job references in the UK

[pete23]

This is true for formal references, but if you work in quite a close-knit industry then people tend to know someone that they can tap for an informal word.

Hmmm... we've got all age and date related data off the CVs now, guess the name will be the next step.

Re:Job references in the UK

[tolomea]

I never bother with references from the places I've worked, if the companies care they can find and call them themselves.
I do however provide references from people I've worked with, generally a mix of coworkers and immediate bosses.
I'm also a tad honest so I tend to choose them based on my opinion of their integrity and professional ability not based on what I think they may say about me.

Re:Job references in the UK

[NotBornYesterday]

I'm not in HR, but I think there's a difference between simply verifying work history, and following up on references. Here in the US, the same thing often applies; HR departments will verify past employment, but not much more, for fear of what happens if they say something unkind. OTOH, If a job applicant specifically gives a list of references, I'd expect that those references would be willing to talk in detail about the applicant's work history. Although, since they'd been selected by the applicant, there's not much reason to think that they would give negative feedback.

Re:Job references in the UK

[CodeBuster]

It is the same thing with job candidates who are interviewed but not hired, they never find out why because the HR department is afraid of being hit with a discrimination lawsuit. It is interesting or shocking, depending upon how one looks at it, to consider just how much the United States has changed since the end of WWII because of lawyers and lawsuits. It is hard to find any part of American life that has not been altered by the ever present threat of litigation. In the long run the lawsuit society plays right into the hands of the nanny state as people abandon personal responsibility and surrender their rights and freedoms to the state in exchange for the illusions of security and prosperity.

Re:Job references in the UK

[spasm]

It's the same in the US - I work for a large west coast university & have been advised by our legal dept that you cannot say anything bad about an ex-employee if someone calls for a reference, no matter how bad the ex employee was. However, the one question you *are* allowed to answer honestly if asked directly is "would you employ this person again if a similar position arose in your organization?". So if you're checking references in the US, always ask that question - if they answer "no", you know the person is a dud.

Re:Job references in the UK

[glitch23]

My company in West Virginia says they can only say that yes/no the person was employed by us and if so they can give the dates but other than that I've been told they *can't* say anything else. I don't know if it is a state law thing or what. I haven't found anything in that regard so it might just be company policy.

Re:Job references in the UK

[ahabswhale]

Yeah, it's the same deal in the US too and for the same reasons.

Re:Job references in the UK

[plague3106]

Well, even if the applicant gives specific references, you still are speaking on behalf of the company, especially if you are calling their work number. At least that's what we were told if anyone called about a reference for anyone.. we were told to only confirm the dates of employement.

Re:Huh?

[Vectronic]

This is a very vague comment about broads...

Be Canadian first.

[William Robinson]

I immigrated to Canada, and finally decided to leave Canada after few years. During those days, I was invited by social workers to give presentations to new immigrants to Canada.

Canadian work culture is different, and was more or less of shock to me. If you could say that I am wearing Canadian underwear, the probability of getting job is better than if you say, I have designed supercomputers in Australia. I know I am exaggerating, but it is not too far from reality.

One of the best way is to start is applying directly to companies, instead of recruiting agents, as they would consider you less marketable lacking Canadian experience (god knows WTF it is.) You will wasting too much of your time if you believe that agents can help you.

Second important thing is to start working and build your credibility, which could come from working somewhere either voluntarily or accepting job that was not your profession in Australia. You will need to be patient to get job what exactly you are looking for.

Third suggestion is to start acquiring some academic qualification or certifications in Canada. It helps.

Fourth suggestion is to start looking for social services network of your own community. Surprisingly, Canada has pretty good social network of helpful people. They would guide you a lot better than anybody else.

I used to tell a lot of jokes to new immigrants, and would love to share with you. Hang on.

Re:Be Canadian first.

[S3D]

Second important thing is to start working and build your credibility, which could come from working somewhere either voluntarily or accepting job that was not your profession in Australia.

Wow, that sounds really unattractive. Canada have overabundance of IT workers ?
Here in Israel a dog can work as programmer if he/she could prove he have some coding skill and have work permit. Don't have to know Hebrew either, if English is fluent enough. Of cause the pay is about half of that in US and the summer is really hot. Oh, and security checkpoints in the supermarkets.

Re:Be Canadian first.

[tpz]

Canada definitely has a shortage of qualified IT workers. Based on the GP's comments, however, especially those related to taking work in something that was "not your profession in Australia", I'm tempted to suggest that GP came to Canada without the aforementioned element of being qualified. If you need to take shit work in your country of destination, you should have thought about your applicable qualifications before moving there.

Taking shit work isn't going to do anything to help get you back into your preferred profession. If anything, it'll make your resume much more suspect, in that employers will look at the shit work you've had to do and wonder why you couldn't get work in your actual field. Their conclusion will be that you suck.

Re:Be Canadian first.

[Anonymous Coward]

Interesting.

I know a lot of non-canadians finding jobs right now (engineering/mining sector) and this is the first I've heard about this Canadian underwear theory.

And as a Canadian who has worked in Australia, I found the work cultures to be more or less identical.

I second the applying directly to companies route though.

A few rules: Never, ever mock Tim Horton's. We know, it's not real coffee, but it's ingrained in us to love it. People are nicer the more east you go, weather/terrain is nicer the more west you go (minus the prairies). The national beers are all american (or foreign owned) now and are universally despised unless on sale. Idiots who would start a fight on bundiberg rum are now idiots who will start a fight on canadian club whiskey.

Re:Be Canadian first.

[Eli Gottlieb]

THE PAY IS HALF THAT OF THE USA!? How does that compare to the cost of living in Israel? Is it like Boston or Silicon Valley where you're poor and living like a student if you make less than six figures (or the rough Israeli equivalent), or is computing and/or programming still a good profession in Israel?

Hot summers I like, I'm willing to learn Hebrew, and I'm even willing to put up with security checkpoints at stores and promenades, but if the money ain't there, fuck it.

Re:Be Canadian first.

[raju1kabir]

You can live pretty cheap in Israel (spending half of what you'd spend in Silicon Valley would put you well ahead of the game) so long as you're willing to go local and not try to recreate California in your surroundings (and stomach).

You can also get by with English for almost all daily-routine tasks. If your employer doesn't mind then it won't be a problem. Walking around the streets of some cities (e.g., hipper areas of Jerusalem) you'll hear American-accented English spoken as much as anything else.

Re:Be Canadian first.

[Eli Gottlieb]

You can live pretty cheap in Israel (spending half of what you'd spend in Silicon Valley would put you well ahead of the game) so long as you're willing to go local and not try to recreate California in your surroundings (and stomach). Excellent [/Monty Burns voice]. I've never even lived in California anyway, so I don't have that to spoil me.

Though something tells me I'll never, ever be satisfied with Israeli pizza shops. I'm from New York, I can't help being a snob about pizza. But other than that I'm pretty willing to go native when it comes to food. Most of the dishes I know from my parents take enough effort that I'll save them for special occasions no matter where I live.

And as to "surroundings"... oh dear God you'd have to be fucking rich to recreate the green bits of California, or even the green bits of the American South/Southwest in Israel. The water and terraforming cost far too much.

Anyway, good to hear that the Israeli tech center is good money. Immigration to anywhere sucks enough without ending up penniless as a perpetual yeshivah student.

You can also get by with English for almost all daily-routine tasks. If your employer doesn't mind then it won't be a problem. Walking around the streets of some cities (e.g., hipper areas of Jerusalem) you'll hear American-accented English spoken as much as anything else. Kmo amarti, ani rotzeh lilmod l'daber ivrit. Gam yesh li ivrit kmo... kacha-kacha ulpan gimel o dalet.

bsdrtodhshlom.

Re:Be Canadian first.

[William Robinson]

Based on the GP's comments, however, especially those related to taking work in something that was "not your profession in Australia", I'm tempted to suggest that GP came to Canada without the aforementioned element of being qualified. If you need to take shit work in your country of destination, you should have thought about your applicable qualifications before moving there.

Fortunately, I did not have to take up shit work, but I was suggested by almost everyone I met. And no, I did not come without qualification.

It is just that Canada disregards qualifications of immigrants to an extent that it sounds like a crime. It was painful to see some university toppers, I met, doing shit work in Canada.

Sometimes I wonder why Canadians have to defend their shitty system by making personal offenses.

Re:Be Canadian first.

[tpz]

You'll note that I said "tempted to suggest" and "if". No need for personal offense, and, for the record, I certainly felt no need nor was I defending a "shitty system".

I'm really glad to hear that you didn't end up having to take shit work.

It is odd, though, that you found that to have been "suggested by almost everyone". I generally find myself working with more immigrants than locals and none of them have had to take shit work or even had it suggested to them.

As for the university toppers comment, that is a North American thing for sure. North America cranks out way more degrees than it needs to employ, and as much as it ends up being a checklist item during hiring processes, when it comes to looking for qualified people, degrees end up counting for a lot less than solid experience. I do know some people that have come through university after the dot com boom, when anyone and everyone could get a great-paying job in tech, and found that their degrees still left them with shit work. However, those people almost always came out of university with fantasy degrees that didn't really map into professions in the real world.

Re:Be Canadian first.

[Abcd1234]

People are nicer the more east you go,

Buh? I've lived in Edmonton and Ottawa, spent time in Vancouver, Toronto, and Saskatchewan, and visited Montreal... and this is the more ignorant statement I've read by a fellow Canadian in a long time.

Frankly, I've met assholes everywhere. "Center of the universe" Torontonians. Albertans who believe the world is out to get them. Vancouverites who's smugness is detectable miles away. And... nah, I don't think I've met an unfriendly person from Saskatchewan, but that's probably because you're basically forced to have a sense of humour if you live there. :)

And for the record, I know plenty of people who hate Tim Horton's coffee, and will espouse that view quite passionately.

Been there (Melb), done that (relocated)

[nyquist_theorem]

Hi, I can't find how to send you a message or email privately, so here goes... I lived in Melbourne for 4.5 years (Carlton and Kew) and am now a recruiter in Canada. I work for Hays in Calgary. Shoot me an email at matthew at area709 dot com - I've been through the whole gamut (brought my Aussie gf with me, got her PR, found her a job, etc etc) and work in recruitment so can probably steer you in the right direction in exchange for a pack of tim-tams on your arrival. :)

Re:Been there (Melb), done that (relocated)

[definate]

You lived in Carlton? I'm so, so, sorry.

Re:Been there (Melb), done that (relocated)

[MichaelSmith]

You lived in Carlton? I'm so, so, sorry.

Ummm Why?

I have lived in:

• East Doncaster
• Hawthorn
• Kew
• Glen Iris
• Mount Waverley
• South Croydon
• Williamstown
• East Brunswick

...and the last, just up the road from Carlton is by far the best place I have found to live in Melbourne. I am just glad I can afford it now.

The inner north of Melbourne actually does have a good balance between ultra low density car dependant suburbia (Croydon) and ultra high density living (St Kilda). I don't know why you think Carlton is a bad place to live.

Re:Been there (Melb), done that (relocated)

[mossr]

I second the comments regarding Melbourne's inner north -- I'm currently living in North Melbourne, which is pretty similar to Carlton, and it's mostly a really nice area to live in. Funnily enough, I lived in Croydon before I moved. Apart from the distance to the city proper, Croydon is my idea of a great place to live. I'll take the travel time into the city, in return for the large properties and leafy streets (although developers are doing their best to turn everything into housing estates).

It was a lot harder than I thought

[Sandcastle]

Although it may prove to be a walk in the park for you, in wasn't for me.

Went from Adelaide (Australia) to Toronto (Canada). British citizen, work visa, Masters Degree, years of work history -> not a fricken response to my resume for months.

The friends we made while there explained that they don't trust a foreigner to understand what it's like to work in Canada until you already have... makes it tricky ;-) Also seems weird, Toronto is the most multicultural place in the world by some counts. Australia and Canada are both english speaking, multicultural, Commonwealth countries - there are so many similarities but they didn't want to take the risk. So my advice, go straight to a professional recruiter or pay for a similar service to rework your resume and take whatever you can.

An Australian resume is like a brief bio in some ways, educational and work history, what you're now looking for etc. etc. Mine was often 3 pages long here and worked well. In Canada it's a 1 page resume or it's straight to the round filing cabinet. Yes, they'll barely know anything about you, but this way you have a better chance of getting to an interview, where they'll spend the first 10 minutes asking the sort of questions your Australian resume would have answered!

Once you've got the first job, the rest is easy. I started back at level 1 help desk, but jumped 5 levels of management to Director in 2 years. The O/S experience sure as hell helped once back in Australia too. I've tripled the salary I earned before I left Oz only 5 years ago now.

Oh, and socially they'll love ya. Us Aussie's rock, especially in Canada.

Cheers.

Re:It was a lot harder than I thought

[Sandcastle]

Oh yeah... Even if it feels like being a freshly minted graduate again, go to trade shows / job fairs etc.

Getting even 2 minutes of face time with an employer (doesn't even have to be the hiring / HR person or the prospective manager) will give them a chance to realise that even Canadians can in fact speak/understand "Australian", and we don't all wear Akubras and shark's teeth around our necks.

Cheers.

Re:It was a lot harder than I thought

[thetoadwarrior]

we don't all wear Akubras and shark's teeth around our necks. Cheers. That's a disappointment but as long as you live in a post war wasteland fighting over oil then all is forgiven.

Better talk to foreigners living there

[Krischi]

This is assuming that the embassy staff actually is up to speed with respect to the rules and regulations, and that there is a halfway sane bureaucracy in the destination country.

Speaking from bitter experience, I have received more than a bit of misleading, and sometimes patently false, information from the Greek embassy. Still, somewhat in the embassy staff's defense, no one in the twisted bureaucracy here in Greece actually knows for certain what the rules and regulations are for various areas of public life. All I am saying is that it is better to go to the source and talk to foreigners who actually have experience living in the country in question.

Also, do not underestimate the execution of the actual move. Packing, shipping, selling stuff, deciding what to keep, making sure that all the formalities with respect to visas, pets (if any), etc. are followed, is a real nightmare, even with the best of planning. Whatever you do, make sure that you have a place to stay and people to help you in the destination country before you move.

Re:Better talk to foreigners living there

[nosfucious]

This is true.

Bad information is worse that no information.

If it can be done, (1) try and get an internal transfer within your company or (2) there are often businesses set up just to help the actual move. These are mainly targetting the executive end of the market, and they will cost you, but they also look after small fish too. Sound them out about fees and ask perhaps to speak to someone they have moved. (Remember that they are leeches and will try and own your soul).

Internal transfers generally make everything plain sailing. Especially paperwork.

Forget moving large amounts of furniture. Just the stuff you really personally need. One trip to Ikea will sort you when you get there.

And you will miss Vegemite, Chicko Rolls, Twisties, Dim Sims and Meat Pies. Even if you hate them now, you will miss them. Have a strategy for getting a hold of some every now and again.

(Melb, Aus to Switzerland in 2001).

P.S. Language classes are an excellent way to meet women. Granted you mention Vancouver, but picking up a little French won't go astray if you do some travel in Canada. And it will may help you get your job after next.

Re:Better talk to foreigners living there

[CypherOz]

And you will miss Vegemite, Chicko Rolls, Twisties, Dim Sims and Meat Pies. Even if you hate them now, you will miss them. Have a strategy for getting a hold of some every now and again. And... Farmers Union Iced Coffee ... oh noes ... you are from Melbourne! Another reason Adelaide is great.

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[felipekk]

I bet Americans are wondering why on earth we would want to leave Australia..... I guess the kangaroos won?

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[mrbluze]

I guess the kangaroos won? They haven't won a grand final in freakin' ages. Not likely!

in Canada, you're not a network engineer...

[Anonymous Coward]

Here you might not want to refer yourself as a network "engineer", unless you are licensed by the proper provincial authority - in this case the APEGBC. It is illegal to practice professional engineering without a license. The use of term "engineer" is contested - as it has been suggested that the term should always refer to professional engineering. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_over_the_term_Engineer

Typically to be licensed, you will have had to study engineering at the post-secondary level and pass an ethics exam. See the APEGBC website for more information: http://www.apeg.bc.ca/

Re:in Canada, you're not a network engineer...

[kisielk]

You're right that you can't call yourself a "Professional Engineer" but you can call yourself pretty much anything else with the work "Engineer" in it. See point 2 in the very article you linked to.

Also, good look getting a P.Eng designation doing anything network or software related. You have to work under another P.Eng for a number of years, and finding one in those fields is pretty much impossible.

Eh?

[flyingfsck]

I think you would find Vancouver almost as different as Sydney and Perth, so relax and enjoy it.

The biggest changes are driving on the wrong side of the road and turning right on a red light.

Oh, and there are some funny politicians in Ottawa, but since they are thousands of kilometers away, nobody in the west cares about them. Saskatchewan, Alberta and BC are practically independent countries. Oh, and Yukon - nobody cares about Yukon. The power of the central government doesn't seem to extend much beyond Ontario and Quebec.

I immigrated myself 3 years ago ... (from Brazil)

[Anonymous Coward]

Immigration experience here in Canada will depend where you came from. I'm sure you will have less problems as you a are coming from a wealthy country and your mother tongue is 'English'.

The well known 'Canadian Experience' is an excuse to not hire someone you don't want to for reasons that are not technical ... (yeah, undercover racism!!)
If you're caucasian, you will not have much problem with this ...

Anyways, IT professions are not regulated and there are a lot of opportunities. Create a resume as expected by Canadians recruiters (Google it) and you will do pretty well.

As for laws and living, I have a couple of friends that immigrated from Brazil to Australia and I think that both country are pretty similar in a lot of aspects ... Except the f* winter ...

same move 3 months ago

[Anonymous Coward]

I moved from Victoria (the AU one) to BC myself 3 months ago. It was definitely an easy move to make, both personally and work wise. Canadians are kind of like more friendly Australians, it's really nice.

Most important things though

1. Get your qualifications recognised. I'm currently still undergoing getting my accounting qualifications recognised, it's a lengthy process. I have my accounting degree done by these guys - http://www.bcit.ca/ices/ however I'm waiting upon the chartered accountancy guys to do their end to continue my studying. They requested a ICES recognition (they being the chartered accounting institute of BC), so it seems a good place to start.

2. Work visa, I am currently on a 2 year working holiday that has very few restrictions and was rather easy to get (took all of 3 days). All acquired via post and online at here - http://www.whpcanada.org.au/ Took me forever to get through customs in Canada, my stuff was stamped off straight away once I got to the front of the line, but I came in just after a couple of plane loads of Chinese Immigrants. So don't trust the "express" check-in

3. I had a few issues with a stopover flight into the US. Basically I needed to get a US visa for the entire time I'm in Canada just to enter the country (which was for a 2 hour stopover where I had no intention of leaving the airport). It involved meeting the US consulate for an interview and I wound up just changing my flight to fly via Auckland (air kiwi fly direct from Auckland, air canada now fly direct from Sydney). If you fly air kiwi, I highly recommend the lamb :)

4. As an accountant, I probably had more work issues in some regards (different laws), less in others (demand for accountants). Definitely apply directly to employers, I got stuff all help from employment agencies. Applying to companies I got a lot of "get back to us when you're in the country" replies, however I found work before I actually arrived in the country anyway (however, it was through someone I already knew here who worked at an accounting firm). I think you shouldn't have too much hassle, maybe you will finding the exact job you want, but demand for skilled employment (especially in business and IT) is high, there's plenty of work around and large employers are smart enough not to worry about where you come from, just the skills you have.

5. Check out the work laws, as mentioned. You don't get public holidays in your first 30 days with an employer (I didn't work Good Friday, fortunately my overtime I'd been working covered it), you only get 2 weeks annual leave, 5 days sick leave, etc, etc.

6. Get setup when you get here. Go to a bank and get a bank account (take your passport and any other kind of ID you have, Aussie stuff worked for me). http://www.hsbc.ca/1/2/en/personal/international-services/arriving-in-canada - HSBC have quite a range of services for new-comers and non-residents. Get a Social Insurance Number, go to Service Canada (they have a zillion offices, like Centrelink, basically) and you get it on the spot. You need one to work anywhere. Get a phone too, getting a prepaid one is easy. Getting anything on credit can be more difficult, but I haven't really gotten into that

7. And a whole heap of small things. Finding vegemite is a bitch. Most things you buy have a price on them that is BEFORE tax and you'll always wind up with a tonne of change. People are wrong about it being hard to drive on the opposite side of the road. It rains really, really hard in Vancouver sometimes, however they have the sky train, which is cool. It's as pretty as hell here as well.

8. Shit I forgot, get an international drivers licence before you leave, you can get it from RACV, takes 5 minutes and costs $20 or something. I'm not entirely sure on the legality of it though, it's meant to be 1 year, but I've heard since getting here it's only 3 months for residents. Look at getting a drivers licence here eventually, I've never been pulled over to really find out. Don't buy Ameri

Re:same move 3 months ago

[tony1343]

3. Wow the deal with the U.S. visa sucks. I was surprised since Australians don't need visas to visit the U.S., but I looked it up and you are right, since your stay in U.S.+Canada+Mexico was longer than 90 days. That is pretty stupid, but I guess they need proof you are leaving within 90 days. Otherwise someone could just go back and forth between the U.S. and Canada to avoid having to get a visa.

Plus side of getting the visa would have been you could have come and visited the U.S. I need to get off my lazy ass and go visit Canada, since I've never been there (it's difficult to get myself to go to Canada when I can go to Mexico and beaches for the same amount). I'm thinking of getting a backpack with a U.S.A. flag emblem since the Canadians like to travel with Maple Leaf ones. That way everyone will know to hate me.

Re:same move 3 months ago

[harves]

When I moved from Australia to Vancouver two years ago I started a blog to record my (personal) experience. A lot of my choices were exactly the same as the parent poster, but I've taken the time to detail some more of the US visa process and Canadian financial quirks:

  * http://harves.blogspot.com/2006/03/mobile-worker.html
  * http://harves.blogspot.com/2006/03/us-visa-process.html
  * http://harves.blogspot.com/2006/02/canadian-coinage.html
  * http://harves.blogspot.com/2006/03/fun-bank.html
  * http://harves.blogspot.com/2006/03/even-minor-purchases.html
  * http://harves.blogspot.com/2006/04/odd-sights_06.html
  * http://harves.blogspot.com/2006/04/tipping-and-taxes.html
  * http://harves.blogspot.com/2006/05/deeper-insight-in-banking.html
  * http://harves.blogspot.com/2006/05/crossing-road.html

Re:same move 3 months ago

[gbrandt]

I moved from Victoria ...
5. Check out the work laws, as mentioned. You don't get public holidays in your first 30 days with an employer (I didn't work Good Friday, fortunately my overtime I'd been working covered it), you only get 2 weeks annual leave, 5 days sick leave, etc, etc. Thats a new one on me. As an employer in Canada, my employees, regardless of how new they are, get federal holidays off and paid for.

Gregor

Re:same move 3 months ago

[Durrik]

I'd like to add a few things since I live in work in Metro Vancouver.

7a. The transit service (including skytrain) is great if you live or work in the downtown core. The transit service is OK if you live and work in the same suburb of the city. The transit service is complete and utter garbage if you live and work in different suburbs of the city. It takes me 25 minutes to drive to work, and 90 minutes (estimated) to take the bus. The buses are often filled so you have to wait for the next bus and hope that its empty.

7b. There's two seasons in Vancouver. Winter, and construction season. Vancouver drivers are special. As soon as it stops raining and it becomes sunny they forget how to drive in the sun, and then take about a day or so to purge the rainy driving skills from their memory and load in the sunny driving skills. Then when it rains the same thing happens. Really messes up the roads when we get one day of sun because it seems there is no way of stopping the process. Sometimes we get snow, and forget trying to get to work ontime in snow. Vancouver is a hilly city, and people forget where their gas pedals are when there's snow, they often can't make it up the hills because they're go to slow on the flat.

7c. If you know where you're going to work, do your best to find a place to live near it. My first job out of University was great for that. I just had to walk across the street to the sky train, and walk across the street again after getting off of it. Vacancies in Vancouver for renting is relativly high right now because we've had a big building boom the last few years. This is both a good thing and a bad thing. The good thing is you can find a place to live easily enough. The bad thing is that owners are expecting to pay off their mortgages and don't pay attention to market realities and have higher prices going towards the downtown. Most newer construction is terrible since there's a shortage of skilled workers and the condos are just thrown up, the workers don't car because they can easily move to another job. Downtown you can expect to pay over 2-3 dollars a square foot per month for rent. The farther out you can expect to pay around a dollar a square foot. My numbers are about 5 years out of date, so they might be low. But the father out you go the more you'll have to pay for transit or gas.

7d. Owning and maintaining a car is getting very expensive in Vancouver. Insurrance for 'good' drivers (those who haven't been caught in an accident) is around $1,400 a year. Gas pricing is about $1.38 a litre right now, a family sedan can cost around $45 a week if you have to drive it 30 minutes each way to get to work. Its those hills again, they really suck up the gas, getting a hybrid will help because of the regenative breaking, but again you're going to pay more for the hybrid. Our lovely provincial government is adding a carbon tax on at the begining of July, and gas prices are going up. I've heard anywhere between $1.50 and $2.00 by the end of summer. The nice thing is that the US border is close, and their gas is around $4.00 a gallon the last I checked. Works out to around $1.00 a litre so its starting to get worth it to go to the states to pick up gas, if you have a NEXUS card.

In other words, plan where you're going to live, and plan where you're going to work, it'll save you time, money and stress. Someone once told me that Vancouver's infrastructure was planned in the 60s for the city it was expected to be in the 70s, but the plan was underestimated at that time, and all the changes since then have been stop gap measures. The bridges are usually jammed during the rush. We have 9 major bridges connecting the out lying areas to Vancouver, and some more bridges connecting Downtown. They are building 1 major bridge right now, effectively increasing capacity by 1/9th, which isn't much when you see how jammed the bridges are currently. There's rumors of twinning one of the major bridges but it probably won't go anywhere. Hwy 10 which is the

Re:same move 3 months ago

[rogue303]

Having just spent the last year in the USA/Canada I really have to address point 3 above, as it's incorrect.

If you are stopping in the USA for transit purposes only, or for less than three (3) months, as an Australian you are eligible for the VWP (Visa Waiver Program) which gives you up to 90 days in the USA, without needing to go through the visa application process.

I'm not sure of this guy's special circumstances, or whether he wanted to go in and out of the USA on a regular basis, in which case you would need a visa (talk to the Consulate about it).

A word of advice, make sure you have your paperwork with you (you can find the list of what you might/will need at the US Consulate site) as the CBP officers L O V E to grill your ass if you don't have it. I mean everyone wants to get into the USA and not leave, right?

If you have your stuff in order, it'll be a simple case of some suspicious looks (after all you ARE a terrorist) and some stamping and you'll be on your way.

Oh, one other thing, if you're planning on doing a transit through LAX - allowed 3-4 hours between flights, just in case. Trust me on that one.

Re:same move 3 months ago

[PhotoJim]

Stop driving, now. Seriously. If you are employed in a given Canadian province, your driver's license ceases to become valid between 30 and 90 days after you arrive. (This applies even if you move from another Canadian province.) If you do not have a valid license, you do not have insurance which means you will pay for all damages caused (which, in a serious collision, are not hard to get into five and six figures). It's not worth the risk. (I'm in the insurance business in Saskatchewan, so I know this stuff first-hand.) Tickets are the least of your concern.

From US to UK

[thetoadwarrior]

My experience of recruiters in general is that they suck if you're looking for a job that's technical. They are rarely experts in their field of recruiting. If they were they would would for a tech company rather than some horrible commission based job.

I had to apply for my work permit in the UK so I had to save money and then come over and sit about while waiting for my work visa. So once I could work I just took a retail job literally on the same day as receiving my visa. I held that for about two weeks before moving onto something better which wasn't nice but I rather be a bit rude and have money than starve and have dignity.

Because of the gap without work, I obviously took my CV to as many companies and recruiters as possible to get something quick. The recruiters seem just look for buzzwords and try to match you up with stuff that way without even reading the actual CV to get some context on that buzzword. Some even assume that programming is just programming and despite no mention of C++ on my CV, I was asked to interview for jobs that required it.

Imo, it's a complete waste of time. You'd be better looking at specific companies and applying directly unless Canada has some weird obsession with recruiters and you have to go through them.

Re:From US to UK

[Tony Hoyle]

Recruiters in the UK just scan your CV for buzzwords and junk it. And don't expect them to understand anything other than MS Word .doc (definately not .docx) as their keyword strippers can only read that format.

A fun trick is to write "I have absolutely no knowledge of Html, Css or Javascript" and see how many web designer jobs they send you to (obviously change the keywords to suit your circumstances).

Some of them then reconstruct an entirely ficticious CV based on what they think the job wants and send that to the employer. I once travelled 300 miles to an interview - the recruiter had assured me multiple times that they were after a skilled programmer and I was perfect for the job. When I got there I was subjected to a written test on HTML/CSS programming! Turns out they were after a web designer, and the recruiter had said that I was a web designer with 10 years experience!!. After I stopped the interview explaining that the recruiter had lied to both of us, they showed me the CV that had been sent - it bore no relation to my CV at all.. they'd made one up and stuck my name on the top.

I've had similar things happen about half a dozen times (I had to laugh though when one of the made up CVs said I had 8 years Java experience - Java itself was only about 2 years old at the time).

I no longer use recruiters but contact companies directly myself (in fact now that I'm in the other position we will *not* be using recruiters for hiring new people, under any circumstances).

Re:From US to UK

[thewils]

Some even assume that programming is just programming and despite no mention of C++ on my CV, I was asked to interview for jobs that required it.

Funny, my first contract was for Cobol CICS - something I knew absolutely nothing about. They just wanted bums on seats that they could bill the customer for.

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[definate]

Lemme guess... It starts with K and ends in Rudd?

KRudd?

I know I am sick of living in Adelaide (The hills). It is too small and too little industry is here.

I'm looking to move to America. I imagine it will be like the movie Coming to America.

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[MyForest]

Yes, New Zealand is a beautiful place. Personally I prefer the non-Auckland parts, but YMMV.

Without wishing to state the obvious, NZ/AUS is a long way from other places. The flight to the US isn't a killer, but you'll find you only see family once or twice a year. That's OK for a while but once you have kids you may find you want them to be with their relatives more often (or maybe not!) Moving to NZ will at least keep you near your (assumedly) AUS family.

Our friends from NZ just visited last week - we last saw them about three years ago and it'll be another five years before our kids are big enough for me to happily go from the UK to NZ. We miss those friends and I'd like them to be a bigger part of my kids lives.

As for moving countries, we found it quite easy because I was seconded from my UK company. The folks we know who seem to have had the best time are the ones who committed whole-heartedly to the move and got setup in the new country with the intention of staying. Having said that, one of my friends from the US is just about to move back as he can't sell his US house and can't afford to live in the UK anymore. It's a real shame as he was really getting settled in the UK.

My experience is that getting your foot in the door is the hardest part, but once you're in you can demonstrate your competence and all is well. Its time to use every friend, contact or professional organization you can - they can be surprisingly willing to help.

For one thing..

[phagstrom]

..your savings jar is now a "looney" bin.

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[Fred_A]

I'm looking to move to America. I imagine it will be like the movie Coming to America. Which part of America are you considering, it's a large continent... The southern bit, Chile ? Equador ? The northern bit, Mexico ?

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[DJKaotica]

I bet Americans are wondering why on earth we would want to leave Australia..... Actually, I'm a Canadian wondering why you would want to leave Australia, as I recently began considering moving there myself...

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[definate]

LOL You're into specifics hey? In this case I was referencing North America, more specifically NY/California.

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[Anomolous Cowturd]

I bet Americans are wondering why on earth we would want to leave Australia..... There have been some recent unpleasant changes in Australian society. The Iraq war and anti-Islam propaganda has started turning the knuckle-draggers here into nationalists. Every day sees more crosstikas plastered on the rear windows of SUVs, and Aussie flags are cropping up in incongruous places. It used to be that Aussies were only nationalistic when it came to sports... now, I feel an ugly change coming.

Headhunter motivation

[smartin]

This is probably not unique to Canada but one thing you should always remember is that head hunters do not work for you and they are not on your side. They get paid by the company that hires you and hope to get return business from them and therefore are more concerned with making sure that the company gets the best deal. What you will find is that they usually misrepresent the compensation up front and when it comes down to the final salary negotiations, don't be afraid to call them out on it or even go as far as demanding that they (the headhunter) give you a cut of their fee. Depending on the circumstances they will give you a "signing bonus".

I moved from the US to Canada

[MichaelCrawford]

I'm back in the US now, but I applied awhile back for Canadian permanent residency. Eventually I'll go back to stay, and plan to become a Canadian citizen when the time comes. I'm married to a Canadian, who is sponsoring my immigration.

I used to be self-employed as a software consultant, working out of my home in Truro, Nova Scotia. But when I grew weary of it, I found that there wasn't much in the way of programming jobs anywhere in Atlantic Canada, and what little there was paid very poorly.

So I used all the Canadian job boards - particularly Craig's List - to look for coding jobs anywhere in the country. The job I found was in Vancouver.

I've blogged about it extensively:

• The Vancouver Diaries

I kept blogging there even after I moved back to California, because I intend to return someday. Vancouver is a really wonderful place, or at least it is for some people:

It's also the location of the Downtown Eastside, the poorest neighborhood in the whole nation. My job in Gastown was just a couple blocks from there. Many of my diaries are about my encounters with Vancouver's homeless, many of whom were mentally ill.

I was advised never to give money to panhandlers, lest they spend it on drugs. Crystal Meth abuse is widespread there. But I wanted to do something to help, so I often bought them meals.

Often I found that it made their day simply to ask their name and to shake their hand. Folks like that don't get paid that kind of respect very often.

Re:Job references

[Z00L00K]

That's why your reference has to be read in a specific way:

• X has been employed by us - X has been the cause for a disaster that we don't want to talk about and we have 'suggested' that he ended the employment.
• X has been working for us during N years. - X has been the cause for several near disasters during the years he has been working for us.
• X has been doing a good job - X is not a very remarkable person, neither good or bad. (average joe)
• X has been doing a very good job - X doesn't produce disasters, and delivers a bit above average without any real surprises.
• X has been doing an excellent job - We would recommend you to employ X, but don't pay him too much!
• X has been doing an outstanding job - You are stupid if you don't employ X.
• X has been a cornerstone in our company. - We are fu*d stupid to let him have reasons to leave us.

And in general - if an old employer gives incorrect references that can come back to bite them really hard, so that is very seldom a problem.

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[Tony Hoyle]

The Iraq war and anti-Islam propaganda has started turning the knuckle-draggers here into nationalists.

And you want to move to *America* to avoid that???

Welcome..

[infernalman7]

Welcome to the world of unlimited internet.

Line Up Interviews Before you Leave

[wharfrat]

Six months ago I moved from the US to Ireland as a programmer. One of the things I was able to do that you wont, was fly over here for four days to do interviews, except an offer, fly back and resign from my current job.

But what you can do is put your resume (just rename your 'CV' to 'resume') and put it up on some Canadian Job sights. As you get closer to the move, try and get some phone interviews lined up so that when you get there you can do the face to face interviews right away.

Oh - and in Canada you cannot call yourself an engineer unless you have an engineering license. I am serious. Call yourself a Network Technician or Network Manager.

Re:Line Up Interviews Before you Leave

[thewils]

With spelling like that, you must be in upper management!

Re:Line Up Interviews Before you Leave

[befletch]

I am Canadian, and I am an engineer. As in, I have an engineering degree from a Canadian university, but no 'Professional Engineering' credentials; like most engineering graduates, I didn't bother. If you aren't building bridges or something, you don't need them. By not becoming a P.Eng, I avoid paying annual association dues, and I don't have to sign passport applications for half the people I know. That is the sum of all differences between me with a P.Eng. and me without.

Getting to the point, there is *nothing* wrong with calling yourself an engineer in Canada. OK, maybe you should be ready to clarify that you aren't a P.Eng. in the odd circumstance that someone would ask. Nobody has ever asked me in all the untold years since I graduated. Software engineer, application engineer, network engineer, whatever. Maybe big companies distinguish somehow - I've always worked in smaller shops. But the only time I've ever heard any serious outcry is when some union of garbage men announced that they wanted to call themselves 'sanitary engineers'.

So I would recommend calling yourself whatever you feel is most descriptive of your job skills, and if you do run afoul of some P.Eng. pedant, consider yourself lucky to not work for them.

And as for the few other posters saying that immigrants have a hard time finding work in Canada, I can only say two things. Firstly, jobs are not always easy to come by here, even for Canadians. Networks matter, though, which works against immigrants. Can that be so different in other countries?

And secondly, language skills are often a major hiring impediment. I've personally seen decent CVs (yes, we do know what that word means up among the snow drifts and sled dogs) from people who couldn't make it through the most basic of phone interviews. English must be much easier to read and write than to speak, given my current company's experience. We try to hire based on skill, but around me I see four people born in Canada, one visa holder from each of England, Ireland and the US, and one naturalized Canadian of Hong Kong Chinese origin. Not exactly Vancouver in a box, but not quite the sort of discrimination Canadians seem to stand accused of at a few points in this thread.

Re:Line Up Interviews Before you Leave

[befletch]

OK, I just spent an educational 20 minutes reading the Professional Engineers Ontario site, and it looks like We Engineers can be a touchy lot in Canada. (Look under Enforcement -> Use of the term "Engineer")

Seems stupid to me, and I still wouldn't worry about it myself, but I guess I should be more careful in my recommendations of what job titles people should use.

The jokes I used to tell new Immigrants

[William Robinson]

The new immigrants in Canada are called "Landed Immigrants". FYI.

Richard dies and his soul is met by St. Peter at the Pearly Gates. "Welcome Richard," says St. Peter. "Before you settle in, it seems there is a problem. We are not able to dig information related to you and we don't seem to know what to do with you. Why not go around and have a look at heaven and hell both, before we find about you."

So Richard decides to have a look at heaven. It is whitish, full of saintly decent people, talking about all good and nice things. Richard got bored very fast.

He decides to have a look at hell, and to his surprise, hell is full of beaches, nice beautiful chicks in bikini moving around, Malls, restaurants, flyovers, gardens, maple trees...it almost looked like Canada.

Richard comes back and before he could spell his choice, St Peter says, "You have been brought here by mistake. You still have 7 days of life to enjoy on earth."

Richard goes back happily on earth and returns after 7 days. St Peter welcomes him and says, "You have been pretty decent guy on earth. You have choice to make. Where would you like to go? Heaven or hell?" Without hesitation, Richard chooses hell.

St. Peter decides to check on Richard after 6 months. He found Richard in shock and misery. St Peter wants to know what happened with him. Richard looks deep in space and says "I am jobless, and have no credit cards. I got some temporary job but paid heavy taxes. Nobody would give me credit cards. I can see chicks but can't touch them. Last 6 months I have found myself frustrated beyond you could imagine.".

After gaining some control of himself, Richard looks at St Peter, and asks "When I came here first, I wished I was here forever. Why am I frustrated now?". St Peter smiles and says, "That time you were on visitor visa. Now you are landed immigrant."

Re:The jokes I used to tell new Immigrants

[algoa456]

Here's another one: a Canadian, American and Scotsman are involved in an accident and die and go to heaven. St Peter meets them and says how sad it is to see three young men dead in the prime of their life. "Tell you what", says St Peter, "you pay me a thousand bucks each and you can go back". The American immediately coughs up and - miracle of miracle, he comes back from the dead. "Incredible", the American says to those standing at his bedside, "there is life after death". He then recounts the story. "Well if that's the case why haven't the other two come back to life. " some wise guy asks at his bedside. "Oh, those two guys. The Scotsman is still haggling over the price and the Canadian is waiting for the government to pay".

Re: Norwegian Blue

[FurtiveGlancer]

Lovely bird, the Norwegian Blue. Beautiful plumage.

Get your permanent residence status before leave

[mofag]

so that you enter as a landed immigrant. I am just getting my landed immigrant status now after 5 years (because I'm lazy and disorganised). Of course the main thing about changing countries is that whatever you do you feel like you're the first person who ever changed countries but if you are patient, its all fine :) If I were you though I would emigrate to NZ instead.

I disagree

[Xest]

If your boss is an ass that gives you a bad reference out of sheer malice or even as in some cases, because they depend on you and don't want you to leave then you should have every right to sue the living daylights out of him/her. They're effectively playing with your life and your future which is unacceptable.

References just don't work a lot of the time, it's already been pointed out here that a crap worker may get a good reference to get rid of them and a good worker may get a bad reference to try and prevent them leaving.

I've had a bad boss like this before, I just didn't give him as my reference in the end, I gave a friend at work who was on a higher payscale than me and hence good enough to fit the bill of someone senior. It still makes the reference process pointless though because someone who is a friend is always going to give a good reference even if I had actually done a shit job!

At the end of the day people will fiddle the system to suit them from both sides of the reference process, whatever comes out certainly is never going to be an unbiased description of the candidates work ethic or skill set.

Emigrating Dude, chill,

[toby]

John Howard's gone now! That said, I'm not going back. :)

As somebody who hires tech people in Canada ...

[Titusdot Groan]

I'm a development manager and hire programmers and IT people in Toronto ...

I wouldn't worry too much about getting Canadian designations or education, Canadians are used to hiring Eastern Europeans, Indians and Chinese talent and know how to deal with differences in education.

Do document what you did and what you can do in resume. Keep it to two pages unless you have 10+ years of experience. Do list specific technologies you work with and relative skill level in each. When you list designations, make sure they are either the same in Canada or explain what they are.

If you are using your employer to move to Canada, I would be careful to go with a legit company. You might want to use a headhunter for that reason. There are many headhunters that are used to dealing with immigration issues. The hiring company usually the headhunter's fees not the job seeker. If you find a headhunter that is charging you a fee run away unless it is for specific services (such as immigration aid).

I wouldn't waste money hiring a lawyer unless you get a job offer that has an employment contract containing lots of restrictions. Canada has fairly good labour laws. Be careful about signing contracts that take away too many rights upon termination.

Re:A qualified network engineer?

[fosterNutrition]

Although the parent is obviously a troll, there is one related true point: In Canada, you are not an Engineer. Here it is a legally regulated profession, much like medicine or law, and only members of the relevant provincial association may use the title. Depending on your job you may be eligible for membership, but my understanding is that most of those sorts of jobs are not considered engineering -- not to say they're not cool or difficult or anything, they just don't fit what the law defines as engineering.

Vancouver job market

[Snocone]

Actually, the Vancouver job market is getting pretty simple these days. Sod the recruiters, pretty much all the jobs show up here.

http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/

Seriously.

One other address you may find useful: This can be helpful with getting your place furnished while you're waiting to actually have money.

http://www.freecycle.org/group/CA/British%20Columbia/Vancouver

And ... hmm, well, actually, that's pretty much all you really need to get along fine in Vancouver. See ya soon, mate.

I'm an Australian moved to Canada

[microbox]

What I want to know is, what sort of quirks and tricks I am going to have to get used to in the Canadian job market?

Been there done that. The most frustrating thing was resumes. Australian resumes are different, and HR drones in Canada don't even bother looking at them. When you get here, get local help with your resume, so it looks and smells just like everybody else's.

I found out when I complained to a friend that I got no interviews from about 15 applications. After adjusting my resume, I got an interview for almost every application I sent out.

Both resumes contained pretty much exactly the same content. So I guess the lesson is: form before content.

Re:I'm an Australian moved to Canada

[flyingfsck]

Yup, I noticed that too. I think the HR drones all use the same, extraodinarily bad resume scanning software. BTW, if you are after a high paying job, use http://theladders.com/ their resume rewriters actually work and costs about $300. Oh, yes, almost forgot - watch out for moose dropping from trees. Once a moose bit you in the neck it is very hard to get off. You may end up carrying a moose around on your neck for weeks, before you can convince someone to help. They are a protected species, so the penalty for hurting a dropping moose is huge...

Re:Job references

[WhatAmIDoingHere]

When we called to get the reference of a new woman, her old place of employment went on and on about how great she was. Turns out, they forgot how great of an employee was. They offered her old job to her at a higher pay.

Welcome to the Rat Race

[chocolatetrumpet]

Aren't people in Australia really laid back and easy going? That's what my friends have told me who lived there.

North Americans are relatively anal by comparison, what with the puritan work ethic and all.

Good luck with that.

Re:Welcome to the Rat Race

[thewils]

He's not going to North America though, he's going to Vancouver BC.

Re:Welcome to the Rat Race

[chocolatetrumpet]

Silly old me!

P.S. Canada is a country occupying most of northern North America -- Wikipedia

As a Canadian living in Toronto...

[vorpal22]

...I can't think of any special hoops that you'll need to worry about jumping through.

Recently I decided to discontinue my PhD studies because my supervisor's no longer available and there is no one else in my field of research in my university. Additionally, I'm fed of up my academic institution. Hence, it's been job hunting time for me. I do have a Master's degree in computer science (although in an obscure field that's not particularly applicable to many companies, i.e. combinatorics and optimization), which may give me a slight edge over the competition, but between that and three years of PhD work (again, in obscure combinatorics), I have significantly less professional experience than someone else in my age range.

All I've been doing is sending out a polished one-page resume via e-mail that's succinct and only covers skills I feel pertain to the positions to which I'm applying, accompanied by a confident sounding cover letter that addresses why I feel I would be a suitable candidate for the position and how I meet the required qualifications (with some examples as to situations where I demonstrated the skills they request). I write with a professional tone but allow some leeway to sound excited about the posting, and end with thanking them for their time and telling them that I look forward to hearing from them.

In the first month, I sent out only about ten resumes (I wasn't in a rush to start working). I didn't bother to visit in person, demonstrate any samples of work, or provide any references. Within two weeks, I received eight interview offers. None of these were for entry level positions, either, nor, to my understanding, is there a shortage of people here in Toronto.

As my skills are nothing particularly special, I strongly believe that it's my combination resume and cover letter that get my foot in the door.

Re:As a Canadian living in Toronto...

[Fulcrum of Evil]

I do have a Master's degree in computer science (although in an obscure field that's not particularly applicable to many companies, i.e. combinatorics and optimization)

I dunno, that stuff is highly useful to places like Amazon and possibly some travel sites.

Re:A qualified network engineer?

[tomhudson]

You also can't call yourself a software architect - architect is another regulated profession.

Besides, when someone at a party asks you what you do for a living, which is the cooler answer:

• [_] "I'm a software architect."
• [_] "I'm a software engineer"
• [X] "I'm a writer."

As for the network engineer, if you're foolish enough to admit to it at a party, you're going to have everyone asking you why their DSL service is so shitty and what you can do to help them. Better off telling everyone you're a pimp, politician, or lawyer (but I'm being redundant).

Re:Job references

[mikael]

And also:

X has been given a office desk in the basement - Sometime in the past we decided to discontinue X's employment, but the request never made it through to HR.

I helped a frined move from UK to Can in April

[A Pressbutton]

... He actually started looking for a job in Jan.

He applied directly to companies. That seemed to work much better than general online search.

There are cultural differences. Canadians are actually more US in outlook than European (unsurprisingly).
In the uk you would be a lot less forward.
ymmv in Aus.

He actually went there on hols with family to interview companies. They liked that (and so did the prospecive employers).

I spoke to the people he went to work for for about 30m (I recruited him into the place he left).
They did not ask anything I would not have thought of with positions reversed but I gained the sense that his main reason for moving - which was to provide a better life for family and thus the move is a long term one - counted for a lot.

I was told later that Canadians (well, Victorians (?) are much more family and community oriented than the Brits.

offtopic, still read it

[unity100]

and i have to 'offtopicly' sympathize, since there has been cases of web sites being taken down in turkey by court order because they have criticized microsoft just like how it is done here i slashdot. valid criticism.

Why move without a job offer?

[Edgester]

Why are you moving? It sounds like you are moving without a job prospect in mind. I recommend having a job offer from a canadian firm before moving so that they can help streamline the paperwork, if that's possible. I wouldn't recommend that someone move within a country without a job offer and that goes double for between countries. I understand that other factors may play into it, like having a spouse from another country, but I wouldn't suggest moving without at least one of you having a job offer. It may delay you plans, but it's probably the safer choice.

How to Live and Work in Canada

[florescent_beige]

The Concise Guide

Number One

Don't say 'oot and aboot' that's just stupid. And if you looked at that and thought those should have been double quotes, I'd hire you.

Number Two

Canadian girls are easy except in Toronto Montreal Calgary Vancouver St John St Johns Halifax Quebec City Gander and lets see where else have I lived...

Number Three

There is one city called St. John and another one called St Johns nobody knows which is which

Number Four

Pants are expected to be worn at work

Number Six

Math skills are important for getting a job

Number Seven

Is a nice number. Too bad that movie had to ruin it for me

Number Three Redux

I just looked it up and St John is where they actually do say oot and aboot

Number Five

Better late than never

Number Eight

Montreal has potholes and Toronto has that smell so take your pick. In Calgary, bring your own cardboard box to live in. Vancouver has a commuter train that takes you into the middle of the woods.

Number Nine

Saskatchewan is flat because the 6000 kph winds blew all the hills into Lake Superior

Number Ten

There are lots of high tech jobs in Ottawa but the only thing to do there in your spare time is laugh at Corel's office building.

Re:How to Live and Work in Canada

[David_Hart]

I enjoyed this until the slams about Saint John, NB (and not St. John, as typed in the post) and St. Johns, Nfld. Both are unique and interesting cities to visit (though I have never been to St. Johns, I want to some day). I grew up in the Saint John, NB area and, while I couldn't recommend living there, it is nice to visit. In fact, it's a cruise destination for cruise ships going up the east coast.

Re:How to Live and Work in Canada

[Jorophose]

Isn't the other St-John St-Jean? Of course, it's still pretty confusing... The only possible trick to use is that New Brunswick is officially bilingual, and the newfies are a bunch of freeloadin' hippies who hopped on at the end of WW2. :)

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[DarrenBaker]

Uh...

Canada, bro. Canada is *not* the USA. We don't assume people are shady because they don't fly flags and tie yellow ribbons around everything in sight here.

A few things...

[Nuitari The Wiz]

A few things you have to keep in mind about Canada.

Different provinces will have different regulations and systems when it comes to work, health care, education, taxes and driving laws. Cost of living will also vary depending on provinces.

Don't bother with recruiters much (send them your resume but keep it at that), they suck and usually won't bother dealing with you unless they have a position to fill immediately.

A lot of jobs are known through word of mouth, so try to link up with people.

"Canadian experience" is a bitch. Some employers will get stuck up on it. What will definitely help is anything that will show stability and dedication. You might have to get a lower "entry level" job to start with, however once you get it you'll be easily promoted higher up. And of course already holding a job will make you more employable.

On that line, keep your resume simple and only list the most recent things and the work experience that matters. 2 page max, preferably 1 page.

You should check http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/ it will give you an idea of services from the federal government.

One thing that can hit you...

[Gramie2]

...is insurance. Without an insurance history in Canada (or, maybe, the U.S.), you are assessed as very high risk. When I returned to Canada after many years abroad, my $900/year car insurance would have been 2x or 3x that (I had never owned a car in Canada).

Re:One thing that can hit you...

[Achromatic1978]

In which case, talk to your insurance company. I had the same issue. I asked them what could be done... they were willing to accept information from my Australian insurer (blah blah blah, official letterhead, registered insurance provider, notarized, etc), and upon doing that, effectively transferred my insurance history and lowered my rates to what would normally be expected.

contact more recruiters

[Uzik2]

if one IS willing to treat you like a decent human being then they're more deserving of the fee they'll get for placing you. They may also be able to point you toward better jobs as well. Join "linkedin" and research how many people have left your perspective new employer's shop in the last six months.

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[daliman]

As a Kiwi that's moved to Aus... Why are you moving to Auckland? I mean, NZ is great. But Auckland is all the worst parts of NZ. You get more money there, but that's it.. If you're after cash, then you get far more in Aus than NZ anyway.

If you're looking for a better lifestyle, look towards Wellington. If you're looking for more cash, then stay in Aus or (possibly, I haven't looked) head towards Canada. The snowboarding in Canada beats NZ as well :)

Step 1

[crossmr]

don't move to Vancouver and move to Calgary
step 2
walk in to any company and just start working.. they will probably throw a party in your honour.
step 3
collect big pay cheque in slightly friendlier housing/rental market than Vancouver..

Re:Step 1

[DirtySouthAfrican]

step 4 throw back out shoveling driveway and wipe out on black ice while checking your mail =)

Re:Step 1

[crossmr]

have you ever been to Calgary? We haven't had any significant snowfall here in the last few years. Nor most years. Its an extremely dry climate.

Re:Step 1

[PenGun]

Calgary is an ugly scar on the landscape. Vancouver is a pretty nice place ... as cities go.

Re:Step 1

[crossmr]

Calgary has an extremely high percentage of green space even in the downtown area compared to other cities in north america. Living downtown I'm a 5 minute walk from a several kilometer long riverfront park/trail system, a man-made island in the middle of the river which is full of trees, animals, etc and serves as a summer venue for plays, concerts and other things. I'm across the street from a water park and I'm no more than 15 minutes from about 10 other green and/or water parks. I also have a great view of the mountains. I'm about a 20 minute drive from where I can put in for a nice 3 hour rafting ride down the bow river which is nothing but nature.
Ugly is right. I wish I could have been living in Vancouver during the several week long garbage strike instead...

Re:Step 1

[Abcd1234]

step 5 chase annoying urban cowboys off of lawn.

Re:Step 1

[Abcd1234]

Ugh, compared to Edmonton, and it's incredible river valley park system, Calgary is an ugly blight. Urban sprawl like you wouldn't believe, horrible traffic and massive freeways everywhere. And don't get me started on the people...

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[Crazyswedishguy]

I bet Americans are wondering why on earth we would want to leave Australia.....
Vegemite?

Assuming you're white...

[ZepHead]

Are you prepared to work on a team that is predominantly non-white? Report to a team lead/manager who is of Chinese or Indian decent? Australia has a rep for being quite intolerant of non-whites, so you may be in for quite a shock :)

Re:Assuming you're white...

[Roger_Explosion]

Once the media develop a 'label' for something (a person, a country, etc.) then they pick all the stories that reinforce that label, and ignore any that don't. Therefore, the world hears about the Cronulla riots, the people protesting at Camden about the islamic school etc. The world doesn't hear however about the public outrage, and intense national shame caused by the Cronulla riots.

They don't report on the vigorous national debate that resulted from the decision not to allow the Islamic school in Camden.

I do genuinely think that Australia has been unfairly tarred with the 'racist' brush. I am not saying that a lot of Australians are not racist, and I have seen a disturbing rise in nationalism in recent years, however Australia was built on immigrants and I think that most Australians realise that, and appreciate what immigrants bring to the community, and the economy. Modern Australia would not be what it is without immigration.

Racism exists everywhere. Sometimes it is fanned by governments whose agenda it serves to inflame racial tension. But Australians, at heart, are no more racist than people from any other country.

Right now?

[gregbaker]

In the current Vancouver tech job market? Show up with a resume and some skills.

The BCTIA (British Columbia Tech Industry Association) has a magazine-like publication with lists of members. If you can get your hands on a copy, it would probably provide some inspiration for places to apply.

Re:The real problem.

[Panaqqa]

Pardon me, but these days it's the US Dollar that is weak. The Canadian Dollar has gained in value more than 10% against the USD over the last year. Interestingly, for the first time in over 30 years I have run across more than a few Canadian businesses that will not accept US cash.

As far as your Monopoly money analogy goes, well, guess who has the bigger counterfeiting problem? Hint: it's not Canada.

Re:One more - The Ant and the Grasshopper

[RealGrouchy]

So, your job was to indoctrinate immigrants to be xenophobes (against poor and the homeless)? How ironic.

A lot of homeless people are mentally ill or unemployable. They're homeless because of bullshit like your ideology that everyone must compete in the free market to survive, and if they can't, that's not anybody's problem but theirs. Very egocentric, and very convenient to dismiss any responsibility.

Most of the immigrants I know are highly involved in social causes, so I guess it's fitting that you felt like you didn't belong. I'm glad you decided to leave Canada.

- RG>

I am Canadian. I live/work in Greater Vancouver

[ansak]

... as a software developer. Some of the comments about "work product" instead of certifications refers more to developers, not network techs. bctechnology.com's career pages are your friend.

This last quarter, the Canadian economy contracted by 0.1% but grew by 1.7% if you take the ailing auto industry, joined at the hip with the ones in the US out of the numbers. I suspect the central bank may soon do things that are good for Ontario and bad for everyone else but for now that has not happened.

I'm not sure what you meant about "hoops". Of course you need to get a "work visa", "landed immigrant status" or be a citizen, to start with but more than that...?

Were you planning on drifting from contract to contract or settling down at some company? There are a number of companies in the Greater Vancouver area that will want your skills in either case and you should be able to find a good placement with or without the help of an agent. On being hired full-time, you may find yourself routinely on three month probation but after that, short of incompetence or a business downturn, your place should be pretty secure. If you are laid off ("made redundant") you should get a pay-out of a fortnight's (or more usually a month's) pay per year of service. (If you get less, a lawyer can be of assistance unless there just ain't no more blood in that stone.)

Greater Vancouver includes North Vancouver, West Vancouver, Burnaby, New Westminster and Burnaby, as sort of an "inner ring". That's where most of the jobs are, and that's where housing is more expensive. Coquitlam, Port Coquitlam, Port Moody, Maple Ridge, Pitt Meadows, Surrey, Langley, Delta and White Rock are all still technically inside Greater Vancouver, and some jobs (many of them with local government agencies) are out there along with more affordable housing.

Personally, I commute from Langley to Burnaby and have done so in the past by bus. After a recent move, I'm out beyond the pale for transit, so I do it by car and have had mixed success pooling. Fortunately, my employer is quite flexible about work-at-home and I do that several days per week. I know another guy at work took a 20% pay cut to work four days a week some years ago and the company went with that as well.

I have been in the developer market for over twenty years and have had tenures from 10 months through 7 years, mostly depending on market conditions (1992 and 2001 were particularly bad years).

All these things can be managed and juggled pretty well. Welcome to BC and maybe we'll cross paths eventually.

cheers...ank

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[mdm42]

G W Bush is a Kangaroo???

Potential job...

[Panaqqa]

If this anonymous reader would care to forward along an email address to me, then I can put him/her in touch with a large managed hosting service in B.C. that is growing nicely and usually hungry for good network people. Sending a message to me via SlashDot is fine, or to panaqqa [at] gmail [dot] com.

"Engineer"

[Spudley]

Watch out calling yourself an "engineer" in Canada -- there are legal restrictions in that country as to who may call themselves engineers.

Re:"Engineer"

[kisielk]

In theory yes. However, it seems that this is rarely enforced in the high tech industry. In fact, as far as I can tell, it's nearly impossible to get a "Professional Engineer" designation in many fields, particularly software related. I have a degree in Computer Engineering, my iron ring, and now do primarily software and systems level work. I've not yet come across anyone at the companies I've worked at who does work similar to mine and has their "P. Eng" designation. Therefore it's pretty much impossible for me (or most people who graduate from a program similar to mine, for that matter) to ever achieve Professional Engineer status.

Does "got her PR" = "PRegnant" ......

[bjbest]

or "permanent resident"? :-> :-> Children of forgeiners born in Canada receive dual citizenship and are able to sponsor you, too. You can't buy that unless you happen to be Conrad Black...

From someone who has done it...

[thewils]

I moved from the UK to Vancouver a few years ago so my experiences might be a bit dated. I had the same response from the recruiters as you though - they will not treat you seriously unless you are resident.

It depends on the job market at the time as to how you'll fare, Vancouver is quite a small town as far as IT goes, so be prepared not to work for some time :) - I figured on about 12 months - but you won't care as you'll probably be hitting the slopes quite a bit. Be persistent, hawk your resume around town to the major recruiters - fill in their questionnaires and put yourself around as much as possible to get your face known. Believe it or not, Vancouver can be a quite a conservative place for the job market - they don't like strangers, so get in there and network, network, network.

Check out the local classifieds nearer the time, although there isn't usually much in there, but there might be. Also, check out Usenet - bc.jobs - to get a feel for what's active, you should probably be doing that now to get a feel for what is happening.

Be prepared to move around quite a bit - if you can work freelance, start up your own company which is quite easy to do and I would say is by far the best way to network and get known. It also means that you don't pass up on contract work. A relative doing the same as you worked for 3 companies in the first couple of years (as a "permie") so employment can be volatile - plan on it being this way. You can be "let go" easily in the first 6 months or so, so don't treat everything as a job for life. I did some work in Calgary for a while - this is a good way to see other cities but watch out for having to pay for accommodation twice. It helps to have relatives over here.

G'luck sport! See you around town :)

Re:From someone who has done it...

[Sentry21]

A few comments on this...

The 'grace period' in Canada is three months, during which time they can decide that they don't want you and let you go without notice. After that, you're a full-on employee, so they have to give you notice and have some kind of a reason. Six months might be something that an employer can add in an employment agreement, but I've never seen it.

Since coming to Vancouver in August, I've had several jobs - I've just started my sixth - and a few more interviews. The first was Starbucks - just to pay the bills while I was looking for something more solid. The longer I was here, the more technical the jobs and more reputable the company. My last job was for the Coastal Health Authority, the province's largest employer. My first job (after Starbucks) was a half-assed tech company in Gastown that doesn't recognize the value of their employees or their time.

Be entirely prepared to end up talking to companies that survive despite their management, not because of it. A job can sound fantastic until you start talking about benefits or salary - at which point you may well hear an offer that makes you wish you'd asked over the phone. I had one interview with a company (which took me an hour to get to) that lasted all of ten minutes, after waiting in their lobby for ten minutes. The end of the interview was when I asked about salary range, and was told 'low end, $30k... high end, $32k'. This is potentially a living wage in Vancouver, if you live alone and commute for an hour. Potentially.

I've also had interviews that I thought went really well, for positions for which I was a good match, and was told 'We'll let you know'. Most of the time, they'll give a timeframe (since I usually ask by when they're planning to make their decision), usually 'within a week'. Usually I never hear from these companies again, until I e-mail them to ask how things are going and when I can expect a decision, to which they generally reply 'We've decided to go with someone else'. It seems that courtesy, for many companies, just isn't on the books.

Don't be afraid to say 'no' to an unreasonable salary or an uninteresting position. I had a job offer for Canada's largest independent record label, which manages or records most of my favourite artists. I went in, talked to the IT manager, he was impressed by what I knew. Called me back a week later with an offer that I declined. I told him that I appreciated his offer, but it wasn't worth leaving a company I was comfortable with for such a small raise. He called me back a few days later with a substantially higher offer. Good companies will do business this way.

Most importantly, don't get discouraged. You'll see a lot of Microsoft jobs, with inexperienced monkeys getting snapped up for them. It might take you months before you land a good job, or you might have one before you even get here. In the end, the only reason I've gotten the job I have (which, so far, is fantastic) is because I didn't give up, and I didn't settle. I've felt bad for leaving one company to go work for another, then leaving that one two months later, but you have to do what's right for you, and good employers will understand.

Credit history

[DirtySouthAfrican]

It's a good idea to quickly build up a credit history (we came from SA, I don't know if it works differently if you come from Au). Meaning, in the first few months while you're here, don't buy your fridge/stove/TV with cash but instead on credit card, and then promptly pay it off so you don't get nailed with interest. Otherwise banks won't touch you for things like mortgages no mater how much you earn (unless 15% interest is your thing). Also, remember to get a Presidents Choice debit card and master card. You'll understand when you get here. Taste the "free as in beer".

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[CODiNE]

What's the "crosstika" symbol you mentioned? Image link please.

Re:The real problem.

[thewils]

The US dollar is only weak so that they can pay their bills to the Chinese more easily and then buy back their own dollars more cheaply.

Contact me, I live in Van and work in high-tech

[emd]

Feel free to contact me, I can be found at my first name, Erin, at thedalzells.org.

Re:I immigrated myself 3 years ago ... (from Brazi

[kisielk]

If you thought the Vancouver winter was bad, be glad you didn't move... well.. pretty much anywhere else in Canada.

Drinking Cultures

[waterford0069]

Having known an IT worker who had lived in both Canada and Australia, on of the things they noticed was a difference in how the work day finished.

Typically (as was explained to me) the Aussie's would work real hard all day, but then about 3:30/4pm beer and wine would come out of the fridge a work. The difference is in Canada, that wouldn't be allowed by local law and social custom. You just don't drink at work, even socially (except for the occasional office Christmas party).

That doesn't mean Canadians don't drink, just it will be in the after hours time period.

And for the American's, watch that Canadian beer. It actually has alcohol in it.

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[CodeBuster]

or perhaps it was the cane toads?

summary

[thestreetmeat]

assumption: poor people are poor because they are lazy.

conclusion: lazy people deserve to die.

You're in luck....

[lenova]

My experience: I'm a IT contracter in Vancouver, and did a year-long stint in Sydney, Australia doing the same work, so I can relate a bit to your situation.

There's a high demand for qualified IT workers in Vancouver at the moment. Someone here suggested skipping the recruiters and applying to corporations directly; I have to strongly disagree with this, especially since you'll be immigrating here. Recruiters are fairly straight forward here, little fuss compared to the Aussie recruiters I had experience with. (And you're right, they won't pay any attention to you until you are actually in the country). I would highly recommend the following recruiters:

TRS Contract Consulting (www.trscontract.com)

TEK Systems (http://www.teksystems.ca/locations/Canada/British-Columbia/Vancouver.aspx)

And check out these job sites:

workopolis.com

monster.ca

Best of luck!

Vancouver

[starfishsystems]

I've been working as a computer scientist here in Vancouver for thirty years. I've also held a couple of positions in Silicon Valley and Europe.

A couple of people have commented about the importance of sorting out the work visa situation. I'll second that, with emphasis on getting it completed before you enter the country. Most nations, including Canada, you can't apply from within the country. Of course, this creates a Catch 22 in which the strongest justification for issuing the visa comes from having a prospective employer write a letter of offer. And that rarely happens without an interview, or two, or sometimes three, in person. So yeah, it may be necessary to come here for a couple of months ahead of time to do interviews.

I've been trying out recruiters lately. I can recommend a couple, if you want to contact me privately. I can also list several that have, for me at least, proved to be a complete waste of time. Odds are, you can do far better looking on your own. In Vancouver, check out the BC Techlology website: http://www.bctechnology.com/frameset_emp.html

The other comment I'd like to make is that, at least acccording to my experience, there is not much that can be generalized about how employers interview, what they look for, or what you can expect to find after accepting a given position. I think we're generally honest people here in Canada, but it's a young industry in a young culture, and so every organization makes up its own rules and expectations. The interview process is almost entirely directed at finding out about you. Except for a few bare facts, you won't learn much about the organization or the people you'll be working with. What you do learn is designed to make the organization look good, rather than to disclose what sort of challenges and difficulties you can expect from the position. And given the high degree of variability that I mentioned, you really won't know what you've gotten yourself into until the first day on the job. I'm sure this is true the world over, but it has a particular flavor on the west coast of Canada. On one hand, we're bound by Canadian politeness and a mild social reserve that can be hard to break through. On the other hand, we aspire to some form of American entrepreneurialism and the frankness that goes with it. I'm delighted by our West coast liberalism and our tolerance for different cultures, but if I may say so, we're not yet as fully evolved as we think we are. You have an advantage as an Aussie, I think, in that you have lived within a similar cultural paradox. Ours ends up perhaps a bit less tolerant of people being outspoken.

Re:Vancouver

[milamber_au]

I can say personally I came from Melbourne to Toronto last year with my Canadian g/f on a tourist visa, which gave me 6 months in country. It took me that long to find a position (2 days to spare), but the company was able to get an immigration lawyer to put together a work visa application for me (Canadian version of H1B). I was able to drive down to the US, and apply for work visa as I re-entered.
If you do this DO NOT cross back in at Niagara Falls itself as I was initially refused here (stressful when you only have the clothes on your back). After a bit of excitement I managed to re-enter Canada, drive directly to Fort Erie and present my papers there successfully, plus the Fort Erie border allows you to leave Canada without entering the USA.

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[HungSoLow]

Parts of Canada are equally, if not more amazing than NZ. The Banff region for one. However, there's shit for tech jobs out there, and the best tech is located in Ottawa (5000km away!) a.k.a. silicon valley north. Ottawa is a very green city (lots of trees, more than you can imagine for a city), probably moreso than any comparably sized city, but it's nothing like Western Canada.

Welcome to Canada

[mmphosis]

I made a move from country to country during dot com. I found that the best job for me at the time was not in Canada. I landed the job after two phone interviews and moved to a new country. It was a great experience. It was helpful to have a job lined up before moving because there are lots of things that come up in moving to a new country. I had to find a place to live, and I needed to make new friends and contacts in a new and different culture.

I moved from eastern Canada to western Canada and the work culture is different between east and west. Despite any hype to the contrary, I see many more opportunities in Quebec and Ontario than here in the west. I hear repeatedly that BC is looking to hire people in the "service" industry but, the companies are often not willing to pay much more than minimum wage. I've met people here from Australia and New Zealand who are shocked at the terrible pay because they could make much more back home and just about anywhere else in the world. Very capable people either get fed up and leave Canada, or they settle for some menial job.

I've seen companies here that hire people from Australia and New Zealand rather than recruiting locally. In my opinion, there are some excellent technology companies to work for in Vancouver. I am starting to see a few companies open up a little bit more in western Canada. I think that they are starting to realize they need to hire people in technology and they need to pay them a decent income.

The best thing would be to land the job you want before arriving in Canada, but being here in person is obviously going to help too. Make contact, apply, do phone interviews directly with Canadian companies from Australia. The right recruiter may be able to get you access more companies.

bonne chance

Tech Jobs In Vancouver

[FrankDrebin]

http://www.bctechnology.com/scripts/search_form.cfm

Security

[elrick_the_brave]

Bear in mind that since you are from another country, this does limit you from a security aspect. e.g. no jobs which require high clearance (or would take months to years to happen)

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[quarrel]

What's the "crosstika" symbol you mentioned? Image link please. He's referring to the Southern Cross, as featured on the Australian and New Zealand flags. It's current with a young crop of (mostly) white anglo Australians as a tattoo motif, and is unfortunately associated with stupid aspects of Nationalism (anti-muslim out cryings, anti-immigration folks, etc).

It's largely the non-Union Jack portion of the Australian flag, so associated with Australian identity. Unfortunately as the GP alluded, the neo-nazi like folks being attracted to such causes in Australia is growing slowly at the moment as we struggle with integrating Muslims, Africans, Asians etc in a western world that has seen neo-cons rise to power.. Hopefully the change of political climate here in Aus, and a change of Whitehouse in the US might help reverse some of the damage of the last 10 years.

---Q

Also talk to a specialist in taxes, retirement etc

[ClickOnThis]

Moving from country A to country B can be a bewildering experience when it comes to taxes, retirement, investment and inheritance. It's a great idea to talk to a cross-border specialist, or at least find some books on the subject. It is particularly important to examine what you will be facing in the (tax) year of your move.

Double taxation is unlikely to be an issue, because practically every country in the world has tax treaties with every other to avoid this. Depending on country A's tax laws and the amount of time you spend in each country, you may no longer have a tax liability in country A, or the tax you can't avoid paying in country A can be claimed as a credit in country B. Obviously this is something you have to find out for your particular situation. And like I said, it's most complicated for the year you make your move.

If you have any money in retirement plans in country A, be sure to find out how they are treated in country B. For example, interest in tax-deferred retirement accounts may actually be taxable in country B unless you make certain declarations on your tax return for country B. If you're a long way from retirement, you may wish to leave the money where it is in country A. Find out what you need to do to make sure nothing bad happens many years from now.

As for investing: you may find it more difficult to open certain kinds of accounts in country A once you are no longer a resident, due to regulations in either country A or B. If you want to set up such accounts, it's best to do it before you leave.

The above is only a part of what you may be facing. If you have substantial (or even modest) assets, property, investments, tax obligations or potential inheritances, it would be worth it to talk to a specialist who knows the ins and outs of the regulations for both of the countries in question.

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[chubs730]

specifically NY/California. Specifically eh? You'll find they are on opposite sides of the country. (sorry)

I'm from Brazil, also want to move to Canada

[DiogoBiazus]

I'm been thinking for some time about moving to Canada. Though, I'm a little afraid of the Brazilian reputation outside Brazil (don't think it's very good). I'm mainly a database architect (work with PostgreSQL), but also a *nix developer. Does someone here has something to say about experiences working with or hiring people from Brazil?

Re:I'm from Brazil, also want to move to Canada

[algoa456]

I've employed Brazilians in the IT industry - my impression is good, hard workers and competent. My understanding is Brazil's economy is going gang busters. That is not the same in Canada so be prepared to shop around to get a job and the pay is likely to be mediocre.

When your job gos down the drain ...

[PPH]

... it goes down counter-clockwise instead of clockwise.

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[uniquegeek]

That reminds me... it's worthwhile to look for jobs in the Kitchener/Waterloo area too.

Hidden costs of relocation

[ajv]

Make sure your employer will help with relocation costs. It cost us at least $25k AUD to move from Melbourne to just outside of Baltimore, MD. I expect the move to Canada will be a bit more than we paid as cars are more expensive in Canada than in the US. The move back will be less as we still have our furniture, but honestly, the costs can be horrific.

We started out in a furnished apartment. Don't. Ikea is cheap and cheerful, but take my advice and buy a nice bed from a good bedding store. We furnished our second place for about $5k, which is less than we paid for the 8 months of "furnishings" at our old place. Oh, and get a power drill with an Allen bit. Takes about 10 - 15 minutes to put up a desk that would take hours with the key in the box.

We got VicRoads to do an extract of our driving history. Waste of time.

We bought RACV international driver's licenses. Don't. Just schedule some time to go for your CA province's driver's license within the first month and you'll be fine with your Victorian license until then.

Buying a car. It's way more expensive in Canada than across the border, but the import tax situation is messy. Be careful if you want to buy something in the US and bring it back across the border. The Honda Fit is a roomy economical car for not much money, but you may struggle to find a lender to fiance the car, which leads to:

Credit cards and loans. You will have zero finance history in Canada, and in our experience, a good credit history in Australia is not counted at all. We had our (good) credit history from the NAB. Meant NOTHING. I still don't have a credit card, and we had to pay out our car loan (at the top loan rate) in 12 months. If you can pay money for a car, do so. Otherwise, VW Finance has an expat / internation finance loan, which is what we ended up with. No one else would touch us. Make sure that when applying for credit that you only in writing authorize them for the loans or CC's you ask for. If they go away and try 20 folks and you get turned down 20 times, the 21st time you apply, your previously blank but okay credit history is now trashed. We've been told how to fix up our credit history now, (take out a margin loan for some C/Ds and pay the margin loan out on time automatically, get a small CC), but I don't care now that we have some decent savings. I was sort of hoping for a nice credit history at the end as it may help us get a house loan when we return to Australia, but I doubt we'll take any credit out here in the USA now.

Insurance. Driving history and lack of accidents mean nothing to insurers over here. Expect to pay $1800 per year and be treated like a 16 year old learner until at least 12 months after you have your Canadian driver's license, so get that licence as quickly as you can. Normally, a 30+ year old person with 12 years of perfect driving will pay $400-500 odd per year. You will be screwed. Budget for it.

Buying a house. I don't know the deal in Canada, but buying a house makes a lot of sense. The market is utterly trashed and you can get a lot of house for peanuts compared to two years ago. If you can qualify for a loan, buy a house. However, expect not to qualify - we can't as our visa is renewed every two years, and thus folks will not lend to us. If you can't qualify for a loan, oh well join the millions of folks here in the same basket. You'll need like an awesome income or a spotless credit history and a long term visa to qualify. Good luck.

Essentials (Vegemite etc). Whole Foods have an international aisle. You can usually get Vegemite there. Otherwise, getting it from Simply Oz will do the trick - at a price. A 150 gm jar is about $5 US shipped all told. We get our Ribena from an English expat online store as it's closer than Simply Oz.

Flying there. Go Air New Zealand. The comfy premium economy seats are upstairs, the width and pitch are fantastic, the food good (the lamb is awesome), and the privacy and quiet is worth the extra coin. The flight crew don't hate their jobs (or you) unlike t

Re:Hidden costs of relocation

[Zarf]

Parent post gives good advice. I'll just tack on a little then. I can't advise Australia to Canada but I can talk to expatriate issues...

I've moved between the US and Europe for work twice. Unless you move in suitcases and stay in fully furnished lodging then you have a big logistical job moving between countries. Plan on at least a 20-40% fudge-factor for exchange rate fluctuations... these rates can change over night and utterly destroy your life.

Side Note: plan on the experience of moving back home being strangely like moving to another country all over again... you might find your credit in your home country is equally non-existent if you stay in the host country long enough. Keeping things simple helps this process tremendously.

Maintain a strict budget with lots and lots of wiggle room and plan on being flexible. For example your temporary short-term arrangements might end up having to hold for years on end. So only make commitments you can support for the long-haul if need be.

Keep exchange rates in your mind and keep wide margins in your budgets when you plan things. If you don't need the extra then you can hold it in the bank for when something surprises you like the inability to get certain types of health care for yourself or family members due to international red-tape. For example as a US citizen our insurance has "coverage areas" and you may live outside "coverage" so you have to travel hundreds to thousands of miles if you have a toothache... or perhaps even fly to a US city to get a check-up or a dental cleaning.

If there ever was an accident I suspect we would have to pay for everything out of pocket. The universal health care covers the citizens of that nation... not you. So learn about how your health care will work and plan accordingly. Taxes can get mighty weird too as each country, state, and province that can lay claim to you may want a cut so watch out for where your paycheck comes from you could get a third nation with a third set of tax laws involved by accident.

Yes, insurance issues and international tax issues will be constant nagging problems. So will worker rights in some cases. You will not be a citizen of the country that you are working in so labor laws may not protect you. Obviously, your home country's labor laws don't protect you either. So you live on the good will of your employer and there might be no recourse for a soured relationship with them. Be prepared.

Your best mitigation of these risks is to keep your household light (minimalist) and alway have enough in the bank to move yourself back home should an employment situation go terribly wrong. In some working arrangements you can have the horrible consequence having your entire life tied to your job standing with the threat of deportation over your head... and no legal standing for fair treatment in the work place. So be careful. Be prepared.

A good employer will know about these issues and advise you on how to deal with them. Many employers will simply not know about any of this. Keep things as simple as possible.

With that warning having been written... I will say moving to another country for a job was an adventure that has honestly made my career and my life better. It was a hard learning experience and well worth it. You may regret some mis-steps you make in moving to work in another country but you will learn so much about yourself and your home country by the contrast your host country will give you. It is a positive growth experience that will be well worth the risk and effort.

Hedge your bets well and good luck!

Major IT Hoop to jump

[GISGEOLOGYGEEK]

If you're moving to Vancouver from Australia, as an IT person, you have one SERIOUS hoop that you may not be able to jump through!

Our internet is FAST and RELIABLE.

You won't be able to blame internet problems on Telstra or the isolation of your continent ... so damn isolated that apparently satellites and undersea cables just can't do it ... according to the guy I complained to when i visited Sydney in February.

Re:Engineer

[BaverBud]

In Canada, Engineernig is a regulated profession. In order to call yourself an engineer, you need to be licensed. Generally, this is done by going to an accredited university, graduating, getting some experience under an already licensed engineer, writing an ethics exam, and passing that exam. Alternatively, instead of graduating from an accredited university, you can write a series of technical exams to verify competency in your field.

Certain job positions (particularly related to technical aspects of health and safety, and design jobs - i.e. structural design) require an Engineer to do the design and sign off because of the safety risks that could be involved. It's illegal to do these jobs and not be a licensed Engineer - and the charges can be quite hefty.

That being said, "network engineer" will most likely be called "network specialist" here, and this issue won't arise.

More info:

Professional Engineers of Ontario - http://www.peo.on.ca/
Engineers Canada (regulatory body for Engineering in Canada) - http://www.engineerscanada.ca/
Association of Professional Engineers and Geoscientists BC - http://www.apeg.bc.ca/

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[MikeBabcock]

I'd like some detail on that statement, personally. Why would you make such a claim?

Canada's an excellent place to work, with a high standard of living and arguably a less politicized environment.

Borders barely matter any more for phones

[btempleton]

I might recommend that before you move you pick up a Canadian phone number and use it with VoIP. There are many ways to do this. You can buy a cheap SIP or Skype phone. You can run VoIP phone software on your computer. Perhaps the simplest is to get a service which will forward your voip phone, using voip, to your Australian number. This is not at all expensive, it will probably cost you in the range of 3 cents/minute to an aussie landline, total, for your incoming calls. 1-2 cents/minute for your outgoing calls, or you can get unlimited plans but they usually are not worth it unless your usage is heavy. Don't forward to an aussie mobile, that will be 25 cents/minute usually.

You can get a Vancouver number which you will keep when you get there, or you could get a Toronto number to appear more "out of town" before you move to Vancouver.

The outfit I use, vbuzzer.com, does not have Vancouver numbers, but I expect Skype does and many other providers do.

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[The End Of Days]

Hey, guess what, neither do we. But don't let your ignorance hold you back.

Re:One more - The Ant and the Grasshopper

[Eli Gottlieb]

Actually, I would say the homeless are generally homeless due to being mentally ill, unemployable and/or addicted to various narcotic drugs. A government house isn't going to solve that. Mental-health care and drug treatment will.

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[batzo]

>That reminds me... it's worthwhile to look for jobs in the Kitchener/Waterloo area too.

You'd better like snow though - as an ex Kiwi, living in the UK, I was a little horrified by 50cm of snow one weekend... it was like the start of the next ice age.

What?

[Anonymous Coward]

Canada? Computers? When did that happen.

Re:What?

[NoseyNick]

Domain Name: CANADACOMPUTERS.COM Record created on 06-Nov-1996. ;-)

Aussie SE in Vancouver

[aliawork]

So for me at least it was quite hard to find a job.. at first. In Vancouver its a case of who you know.. not what you know. I was lucky and had a friend of a friend etc. Once I got the first job here I havent had to apply again. The market here is pretty crazy at the moment so its _very_ easy to find a job. Every company I have contacts in is looking for people. Good luck!

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[Achromatic1978]

I did. Well, I did get engaged to an American first. I gotta take issue with the article's claim that "recruiters aren't interested until you're in the country". Of course, they're not, six months out - but a month or two? Sure. I posted (when I moved from Melbourne to Seattle 18 months ago) on Dice, and a few others, and specifically explained my situation. I got calls in the middle of the night from recruiters and companies, and the upshot was I touched down on a Friday afternoon at 2pm, and interviewed at a realllly large IT company Monday 8am (actually, they wanted to interview me 5pm Friday, "though we know you're just off the plane").

Ottawa is great, you are crazy

[e1618978]

What! Ottawa is awesome, particularly for young people. Lots of restaurants and nightclubs. The strip bars and dance bars are the best I have been to in the world. China town has great food, and so does little Italy. You can skate on the canal in the winter. The NAC has some of the best modern dance and concerts I have seen, and there is the hockey team and rock bands in the stadium. The Art Museum is awesome, as is the public transit. You can blast along Colnel By avenue on a motorcycle in the summer, and it is a great time all round. Le Jardan in the market is the best French restaurant I have ever eaten at, particularly at the price. Have you ever been to Ottawa? Now RTP, NC where I live now sucks, but Ottawa is great, far better than Toronto - probably the equal of Vancouver or Montreal on the sucks/does not suck scale.

Re:Ottawa is great, you are crazy

[algoa456]

Interesting, though useless fact: Ottawa is the coldest capital in the world. Much colder than Moscow.

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[raju1kabir]

Which part of America are you considering, it's a large continent... The southern bit, Chile ? Equador ? The northern bit, Mexico ?

You seem to be a bit confused about your geography.

"America" is the common name for the United States of America, which is a country. It contains none of the places you mention (Chile, Ecuador, United States of Mexico).

"North America" and "South America" are continents. Two of them. Unless you consider Europe, Asia, and Africa to be a single continent.

Do you get similarly confused about other countries whose names are similar to broader geographic labels, like South Africa, Ecuador, Netherlands, Costa Rica, Iceland, Malaysia, Australia, and so on? "Which part of South Africa are you considering? Namibia? Mozambique? Lesotho? Which part of Ecuador are you considering? Uganda? Indonesia? Brazil? Which part of the Netherlands are you considering? Belgium? Luxembourg?"

The only thing worse than a sarcastic pedant is a sarcastic pedant who's wrong.

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[raju1kabir]

wondering why you would want to leave Australia, as I recently began considering moving there myself

As someone who lived in Australia for years, I'm pretty sure it's not a mistake I would repeat.

Insanely high prices ensure your standard of living will be lower than in Canada.

The cities have almost no nightlife compared to major world cities (including major Canadian cities). People go to their wine bars at 6pm to show off their new clothes, then head home to watch TV by 9. After that you've got nothing but feral suburban kids, drunk old men, and bewildered Japanese tourists.

Even the once-vibrant Aussie music scene has dried up to a bunch of derivative USA-wannabe hip hop acts and a few random electronicists hiding in their cellars.

The Australian work ethic and customer service ethic is shockingly slack compared to Canada. Getting anything done takes far longer than you'd ever imagine because nobody gives a shit about doing their jobs.

Other than a few nice areas in the city centres, the architecture is overpoweringly bleak. Normally I wouldn't make a major issue of this - for example, I really enjoy New York which is quite an ugly city when you get down to it - but those endless long stretches of half-vacant cheap two-storey shop buildings in Australia made my soul ache.

While not every Australian is a gibbering racist, the country is certainly well-endowed in that regard. Too many of the rest tend to be reactionary, preachy leather-wearing vegetarians who rail at random against things they don't even begin to understand.

All these things annoyed me, but really it was the feeling of starvation for informed, interested, conversation that really sent me packing in the end.

Seriously, spend a month or two there before committing your life to it. There's definitely some natural beauty to be found, but you can find that in far more stimulating and pleasant places if you look around a bit.

Re:My history.

[Achromatic1978]

Re resume and CV, I found it extremely advantageous to write a little two or three sentence synopsis on each company, giving an idea of size and general purpose. For companies like IBM, etc, not an issue, but you want to give people context when you mention you worked for [Company They May Never Have Heard Of].

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[definate]

LOL OMG SHIT! Well that puts my plans right out!

Thanks for the warning.

Although, in Australia we tend to use a / to mean OR.

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[tdwebste]

Welcome to BIG OIL^W^WCanada

Tar Sands supplying American auto suburbs with oil for the next 20 years.

BIG OIL has also invested heavily in Canada's, media, government.

This investment is an efficient way to ensure that Canada' Tar Sands will continue to have the world's lowest oil extraction royalties.

The Howard government

[Lars512]

An ugly change coming? It's been here for a while, and it certainly peaked with the Howard government's encouragement of xenophobia and treatment of asylum seekers. Fortunately, the Rudd government has swung the pendulum back somewhat, for now.

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[uniquegeek]

It's just snow, not nuclear winter. You'll live.

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[Roger_Explosion]

Come on mate, seriously? Howard is probably the worst thing that ever happened to Australia. It's going to take years to undo the damage he did to our international reputation, to our universities, education system, health system etc. And I'm not just talking about hospitals (which are partly a state responsibility), I'm talking about things like the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme, which made the price of pharmaceuticals in Australia some of the lowest in the world, and was the envy of other countries. Under duress from large multinational companies (who wanted Aussies to pay more for essential drugs), the Howard government dissolved the PBS board and installed their own one. There's also the public health system. The Howard government favoured an American style 'user pays' system. Unfortunately, per capita, the American system is one of the most expensive in the world. It actually costs the American government *more* (significantly so) per capita than most other western nations with a universal health care system.

While I don't think Rudd & Co have all the answers I'll take a slightly incompetent government over a government who knew exactly what it was doing and was intent on taking Australia in a very dark, very unpleasant direction.

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[definate]

Slightly incompetent? That's a gross understatement.

I'm not a fan of Howard, but they did a hell of a lot better than this joker has done so far.

With Howard for me to explain what he did that was so bad is difficult.

With Rudd, all I have to say is FuelWatch.

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[couchslug]

That sort of thing is required to counter enemy cultures such as Islam. It isn't pretty, but Islam is far worse.
Australia belongs to Australians. They have every right not to welcome those who would change it into the Middle East.

"It used to be that Aussies were only nationalistic when it came to sports... now, I feel an ugly change coming."

I'm glad to see they are waking up. Submission is no way to compete with Islam.

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[daliman]

Truth? Yes.

Flamebait? Possibly.

Troll? No.

HEXED

[descil]

Australia has this cool rule where you can let the govmit fund your education. The catch is that if you never make money in Australia, you never have to pay back your school loans.

So go to school, get to know your teachers, they probably know about Hex and the International companies that motivated it and will pay you peanuts to move to Canada where they can pay you more peanuts for your valuable (if somewhat vaporously) education.

Exchange Rates

[z4ce]

As someone who has come the other way (US -> Australia). Use OzForex.com.au it will save you a small bundle in foreign exchange fees and offers better exchange rates.

Moved from NZ/OZ to Canada

[algoa456]

I lived in Auckland for a while and spent quite a few months working on projects in Oz - mainly living in Sydney. I now live in Canada As you'd expect there are similarities and differences. The similarities are similar approach to work, resume (not too long), work approach etc. . Differences are that Canadian experience is valued - now you don't have that, so make sure you have a few decent references available from where you worked before. Again because of the huge influx of migrants recruiters are often suspicious of overseas credentials and qualifications. Again it should not be too much of a problem though. The biggest difference is that, surprisingly, the recruitment industry is not as well developed here as it is in Oz and NZ. A lot of jobs are found through contacts, friends and ex-colleagues. So you have to network, network, network. Make contacts, talk to people, email people and just keep going. Recruiters in the IT industry tend to see you as a commodity - don't expect the friendliness of Oz. They won't bother with you or even respond unless they see a way of placing you. Some ways that is better - you don't get led down the garden path. You will find Canadians less outgoing than Aussies - that can be strange - they are much more like the older English. Reserved. Not unfriendly, just reserved. They don't laugh and joke very much. I would say don't cut any bridges back in Oz and don't send your stuff over until you have been here for a few months. Vancouver in the rainy season can be very very depressing. Beautiful as it is, the crappy weather can wear you down. An option would be to look to Alberta where there is an oil boom going . More employment opportunities. But cold enough to freeze them right off. Hope this helps

Not quite that bad

[Roger W Moore]

f an employer said anything bad about you - no matter how true - they would be liable for claims of libel.
Not quite. They would be at risk of being sued for libel but if the claims were provably true then they case would fail and they would not be found liable. Of course most companies don't want to take the risk so the system is screwed up...but it is not quite as messed up as you suggest.

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[superpulpsicle]

You did not mention the Australian Aboriginals. So they must be integrated fine.

Columbia Internet hiring?

[wwf]

I think Columbia Internet is located in Vancouver. They may be looking for network engineers.

Re:One more - The Ant and the Grasshopper

[William Robinson]

No, the joke is not about homeless people.

The point in the joke is how Canadians believe that they know every matter of fact on this earth...how they love to jump on conclusions so fast....or how they are not ready to accept some other view point....or how they believe they have every right to bitch about other cultures.

You, sir, have done nothing different from a true Canadian.

I, too, am glad that I left Canada. See it works for both of us positively. However, I do miss Canadian chicks. They were wonderful.

Expect it to be hard, Until you get here/there

[gencom]

I've done this myself, but it was from Brissie to Calgary. (I was born in Melbourne, so don't draw too many conclusions, they'd probably all be wrong).

You haven't indicated if you're coming in as a landed immigrant or just on a work Visa.

First thing you need is a SIN number (Social Insurance Number), it functions as a Tax Number.

Second thing you need to know is that until you're available to work, there's very few who will take the time to talk to you.

Third. The Canadian Revenue agency "encourages" arms length relationships with end clients, so there's many recruiting houses prepared to take 25% or more off the top for your services. If you approach the clients directly, you can often find the same work with only a $3-$5 cut.

Forth. Everything which is different is small. You'll handle the big issues like driving on the right simply. It's all the cultural quirks that'll take the time to work out and you'll offend people without even realizing it, and they won't tell you you've done it (Aussie's are used to this service). Luckily your Aussie accent will help get you some slack and most Canadians are pretty friendly.

Oh, yeah... Expect to suffer the loss of many things you didn't realize you would miss... 4n20's timtams (mentioned above), Almost any of the decent dessert snacks you're used to, Decent pavlova, Weet-bix, Vegemite(Now that the Americans have banned it, it's not being shipped to North America)

Finally just expect everything to be different and you'll cope alright. Watch the slang, and any expressions you've picked up from home, sometimes they just don't translate (Cigarettes, and Erasers for two well known examples).

Good luck and enjoy

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[Roger_Explosion]

What has Rudd done so far that's so grossly incompetent? Fuelwatch? It's hardly Watergate. All it will turn out to be is a misguided piece of populist policy that ultimately fails but doesnt cost us a huge amount of money or damage the social fabric of the country. Meanwhile, they have implemented a bunch of policies that are going to do us a lot of good in the future.

Howard set about to -

a) dismantle medicare and replace it with a user-pays system. Not only is this socially irresponsible, it is economically irresponsible - the American healthy system costs the US government more per capita than almost any universal healthcare system in the world.

b) Replace HECS/HELP university places with full fee paying positions, denying low and middle income earning Australians positions in universities, and generally lowering the standard of university graduates and Australian universities in general.

c) Remove the various awards and protections afforded to workers under the law. You might take a government mandated 4 weeks a year of paid annual leave + compulsory paid sick leave for granted, but I think our American friends would be quite envious of it.

d) Cut government funding of universities dramatically, to one of the lowest levels amongst OECD nations.

e) Replace the Pharmaceutical Benefits Advisory Committee with one that is friendlier towards big pharmaceutical companies. The PBAC are responsible for deciding which pharmaceuticals were to be subsidised by the government, which resulted in Australians benefiting from some of the cheapest essential drugs in the world. A program that has since been emulated in many other countries. The PBAC had very strict guidelines about which drugs were worth subsidising (ie. novel lifesaving treatments) and which ones werent (eg. Viagra). Unfortunately the big pharmaceuticals werent happy about this and pressured the Howard government to dissolve the board and install a more 'business friendly' one.

I'll leave Tampa etc. for another time.

On top of all of this, his economic credentials are a bit overstated. Most of the most dramatic reform of the economy took place in the 80's and 90's under Hawk and Keating. This, combined with the resources boom was largely responsible for Australia's current economic strength.

Tax cuts are nice, but not at the expense of our universities and schools.

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[definate]

Okay...

a) I know a lot of people who work in the health care industry all of which say it is far better than it was years ago. The only things they point to as being bad are due to MORE regulation and state intervention than LESS.

b) You don't know what you're talking about. I am doing Uni at the moment and don't pay a cent. Nothing has changed. They did reduce the ability to game the system. I would have preferred they tore it down and left it for me to pay for, however what you're saying is complete fiction. The standard of University graduates has been lowered due to regulation.

c) They did remove the "protections and awards" and it was the best thing ever. I have 3 friends who lots their jobs when Rudd put those protections back in. Just because someone is willing to work for less than you, doesn't mean he is necessarily worse. In fact regulation like this is mostly responsible for stopping younger people, older people and immigrants from working, since they are the only people who are affected. Although, everyone is affected by higher prices.

d) Australian universities have been struggling due to their inability to charge Australian residence full price. This meant that UniSA (The university I go to) is more profitable in Asia than it is here (You did know that due to forcing Universities to charge less (because we still use HECS/HELP) that Australian Universities see Australians as a liability and not a strength?). We were able to deal with these inefficiencies off of the backs of the Asian market for ages, however now a days Asian Universities are competing better than us (And they aren't subsidized).

e) If you want cheap drugs, completely deregulate the system. Done! All problems introduced which increase the price of drugs are due to the government providing a monopoly to drug companies so they have "an incentive to create". This has never changed, it is just when EVERYONE was paying for it (subsidies) on average we were paying more than when WE pay for it.

His economic credentials were good, however they could have been better.

Read Alexander Downers column in The Advertiser, the Government understands all of the issues, it is just they can't sell them to us, because too few people actually go off and learn the economics of the situation.

With regulation I can explain "We say this will cost less, and so it does" which is easy to explain, however I find it harder to explain "We can't force these prices because the market will readjust and there will be a shortage of the good".

It is easier to sell communism, than it is to sell capitalism.

Re:One more - The Ant and the Grasshopper

[algoa456]

The one's that I know in Toronto are too busy abusing the system, bringing in their relatives for free medical treatment or avoiding taxes by having the man of the house working back in their original country while the kids are educated here. But hey, its nice to know your crowd are helping out. Funny thing when I occasionally help out at the shelters I never see them. Guess they are just having an off night.

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[CypherOz]

I guess the kangaroos won? They haven't won a grand final in freakin' ages. Not likely! 1999 (Crows beat em in 98). No where near as bad as Saints or Bulldogs.

Been there, done that...

[BulletMagnet]

Disclaimers
1) I am an American who went to Australia (Melbourne)
2) In 1998

I was a SysAdmin at the time and the 1st thing I needed to learn quick fast was there is a MAJOR difference between an American resume and a Australian (or Commonwealth, perhaps?) CV. My American resume wouldn't have landed me anything because of the formatting and the fact that they were looking for. (at the time, I had to convert my 2 page resume into a 10 page CV) and I expounded on on every detail of work I did. I'm sure things have changed in 10 years, so YMMV.

Someone mentioned the laws of what your visa allows. Forgive my ignorance, but aren't folks from the Commonwealth countries allowed to work in other Commonwealth countries with few or no strings? (this was pre 9/11 so I'm sure things have changed) As an American on a Student Visa (I was finishing my undergrad work) I was only legally allowed to work 20 hours per week. The recruiter I worked for found a loophole and I put in 30+ a week. Probably not fully legal but my situation changed where that was a good thing and it didn't affect my grades so it didn't matter as far as I was concerned.

I applied for 3 positions - One I wasn't qualified/interested in, the 2nd was working in the computer lab at the university I attended (Swinburne) but I was overkill overqualified for and I personally believe the head engineer didn't want a lab rat who knew more about Netware and NDS then he did. 3rd job was perfect and I learned an awful lot about Australian Law working at the largest ambulance chasing firm around and put in my 6 months there before going home. The recruiter I worked for was chasing a large contract at Telstra that they'd need lots of bodies for that they were going to bring be back on the Aussie version of an H1-B visa but Telstra awarded the contract to another recruiter and by that point, I'd re-established myself back in the States anyway.

I think one of the big things that impressed the hiring manager where I ended up was the fact I'd actually paid attention to things going on in Australia at the time: When the recruiter took a friendly swipe at me regarding Bill Clinton and his philandering ways, I just said two words: Pauline Hanson. I'd learned something about Footy (and barracked for Collingwood since they had the least offensive uniforms, and the GF followed Hawthorn, who had the most offensive uniforms) and it didn't hurt that he was also a Collingwood fan. I could have a conversation outside of IT regarding what was going on in Melbourne at the time. I guess being a foreigner with a clue helped.

Oh, and I learned -before- I got off the plane that hoopsnakes and drop bears are as real as the chances of Ballmer and Gates getting awarded the Sexiest Couple in IT. :)

What I can really say is know your shit, in and outside of the IT world, figure out what's going on in the local area and be able to talk about it. That's what worked for me.

Re:A qualified network engineer?

[checkup21]

You forgot:

[X] "I'm a privatier".

That is my favourite. No Questions about DSL-providers either.

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[raju1kabir]

Actually Netherlands is the proper name for 'Holland' as in the country. Holland is one region in the western part of the Netherlands. Benelux countries are Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg.

Yes, but "Netherlands" literally means "low countries", a designation that commonly includes all three of those countries.

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[ah81]

I bet Americans are wondering where the hell on earth Australia is. Seriously though, Americans are definitely not wondering why you want to leave Australia. I don't know why you think they would be.

A basement is a basement

[larjon]

Wouldn't it be easier to ask your mother to move?
I mean, a basement is a basement.

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[j-pimp]

It used to be that Aussies were only nationalistic when it came to sports... now, I feel an ugly change coming.

And what is wrong with nationalism?

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[Roger_Explosion]

You're clearly a fervent believer in laissez-faire free market capitalism, in the divine power of self-regulating markets that somehow miraculously both return profits for shareholders, economic growth, and somehow at the same time serve the interests of the community.

This is a lie, don't buy into it, it has been proven time and time again that completely free market systems while useful in some situations do not serve the public interest when it comes to essential services.

a) Universal health care works, it is cheaper (for users as well as the government) than a US style wholly private system. Private health care is bad social policy, and it's bad economic policy. The US spends more money as a percentage of GDP on its healthcare system than any other OECD country

b) I may not know what I'm talking about, but I have been through the uni system during the Howard years, I graduated in 2003. I saw what successive funding cuts did to my university, and I watched it transition from a research and learning centre into a corporation funded by commercial grants with cost cutting at every corner. I saw the standard of learning corrode even in the time I was there. I watched as more and more places were given over to full fee paying, and thus denied to those relying on the HECS/HELP system.

You might not be paying a cent now, but you will be paying more than ever before when it comes time to pay off that HELP debt.

c) I would be suprised if your friends losing their jobs had nothing to do with workchoices being rolled back, because it hasn't in fact been rolled back yet. The government has just stipulated that no new AWAs can be implemented, and that workers currently on AWAs should transition to an equivalent agreement under the new framework, with a fairly generous timeframe for this to take place.

d) Nonsense. The majority of universities in Australia are public universities, not private universities. That is, they are (or should be) funded by public money. They are not there to make money, they are there to provide quality education to Australia's youth, at a cost that makes them available to anyone regardless of their economic status.

e) Again, nonsense. This is where free market economics fails, and fails badly. The power of competition doesnt work in this scenario because of patents. Drug companies own patents on novel treatments effectively handing a monopoly to that company who can then charge whatever the hell they want for it. You need external market controls. Additionally, it's actually not in pharmaceutical companies best interests to research new drugs, because it costs a lot of money and doesnt give great ROI when compared to say evergreening your existing products. In fact, pharmaceutical companies spend only 11-14% of their budget on R&D and a whopping 35% on marketing their products - http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/171/12/1451#R7-12

That was just the first article I found on the ills of the pharmaceutical industry, there are plenty more out there.

If you want to see what happens to drug prices under a free market system, just go and get sick in the US. You will not believe how much they pay over there compared to us.

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[Roger_Explosion]

a) sorry, I left out a reference - http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/46/2/38980580.pdf

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[definate]

Man I'm bored of this subject, you obviously haven't read into this topic.

I'm going to summarize and just point out the ludicrous statements you're making, and not taking into account what actual free markets mean.

"You're clearly a fervent believer in laissez-faire free market capitalism, in the divine power of self-regulating markets that somehow miraculously both return profits for shareholders, economic growth, and somehow at the same time serve the interests of the community."
You don't understand the invisible hand, do you?

"This is a lie, don't buy into it, it has been proven time and time again that completely free market systems while useful in some situations do not serve the public interest when it comes to essential services."
This is rhetoric and completely made up.

"a) Universal health care works, it is cheaper (for users as well as the government) than a US style wholly private system. Private health care is bad social policy, and it's bad economic policy. The US spends more money as a percentage of GDP on its healthcare system than any other OECD country"
Private is efficient, markets are efficient, more so than with regulation. This isn't contested by ANY type of economics. So do not argue that it's more expensive in a private system, because that is stupid. Additionally, more money as a percentage of GDP? That's the worse economic comparison I've ever heard. Are all other countries economies like Americas?

"b) I may not know what I'm talking about, but I have been through the uni system during the Howard years, I graduated in 2003. I saw what successive funding cuts did to my university, and I watched it transition from a research and learning centre into a corporation funded by commercial grants with cost cutting at every corner. I saw the standard of learning corrode even in the time I was there. I watched as more and more places were given over to full fee paying, and thus denied to those relying on the HECS/HELP system."
I think you don't realize that you're arguing for my side. Quality erodes in public institutions, especially as they grow. Full fee paying students are given quality education, you know why? Because they actually pay for it! We get denied because the government fucks us. I've already started paying it off, it's nothing special, in fact it's way below what the education got me.

"c) I would be suprised if your friends losing their jobs had nothing to do with workchoices being rolled back, because it hasn't in fact been rolled back yet. The government has just stipulated that no new AWAs can be implemented, and that workers currently on AWAs should transition to an equivalent agreement under the new framework, with a fairly generous timeframe for this to take place."
When Rudd came in, they reinstated certain protections which could hold a business accountable.

"d) Nonsense. The majority of universities in Australia are public universities, not private universities. That is, they are (or should be) funded by public money. They are not there to make money, they are there to provide quality education to Australia's youth, at a cost that makes them available to anyone regardless of their economic status."
They aren't wholly public. No public institutions provide YOU with what YOU want because YOU aren't paying for it. They provide the GOVERNMENT with what the GOVERNMENT wants because the GOVERNMENT is paying for it.

"e) Again, nonsense. This is where free market economics fails, and fails badly."
This is where your rhetoric went up 10 levels.

"The power of competition doesnt work in this scenario because of patents. Drug companies own patents on novel treatments effectively handing a monopoly to that company who can then charge whatever the hell they want for it."
Once again you're arguing my point. Since when did a free market have patents in it?

"Additionally, it's actually not in pharmaceutical companies best interests to research new

Get a job first!

[Spinlock_1977]

I've worked/lived in Toronto, and New York City. My advice is this: Get a job in the target country first. Play your cards right, and your new employer will pay for your move and help you jump through the customs/immigration hurdles.

Re:A qualified network engineer?

[Doug Neal]

Besides, when someone at a party asks you what you do for a living, which is the cooler answer:

• [_] "I'm a software architect."
• [_] "I'm a software engineer"
• [X] "I'm a writer."

Heh. I usually say "software engineer" - doesn't usually go down too badly, responses vary greatly - I'd say about 40% impressed, 40% indifferent, and 30% disgusted. Inventing something "cool" is all very well if you've got the mental agility to field the inevitable follow-up questions without blowing your cover.

Generally though, I find the subject of what people do for a living to be something that should be touched on briefly and then moved swiftly on from... a room full of people saying "so what do you do?" is a sure sign of a lousy party.

Re:Engineer

[Damvan]

AMEN! I love to read that. A country that actually protects the title of "Engineer." Here is the United States, anyone can call themselves an Engineer. The kids who pick up the carts at Home Depot are called "Lot Engineers," equipment operators call themselves "Operating Engineers" and software developers call themselves "Software Engineers."

Sometimes I am embarrassed to call myself an Engineer (licensed Professional Engineer - Civil) because I then have to explain that I am a real engineer, not someone who co-opted the title. "Doctor" is a protected title in the US, why isn't "Engineer?"

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[Roger_Explosion]

I agree, we're getting into a general debate about economics, but allow me to respond to a couple of your points.

a) Alright then, they spend more per capita as well -

The United States also ranks far ahead of other OECD countries in terms of total health spending per
capita, with spending of 6,401 USD (adjusted for purchasing power parity), more than twice the OECD
average of 2,759 USD in 2005. Yes, private is efficient, markets are efficient, I'm not contesting that. What I'm saying is that for essential public services, efficiency is not the only key factor. I believe that some things just aren't suited to a business model, things such as the provision of healthcare and education.

b) How is having a full fee paying system going to provide fairness of access to people from all socio-economic backgrounds?

e)

Well tell that to them since they are THE most profitable (marginal revenue vs marginal cost), industry. Hell yeah they are, and yet they spend less and less on R&D each year, and more on marketing.

Healthcare in the US is not a free market system, but it is a closer model to a free market than what we have here. Drug prices there are set by the market. So, if you're poor and you need expensive chemo for example, who's going to pay for it? Your private health insurance provided by your employer? Too bad you got laid off a few months ago due to the slump in the US economy.

I'm not an economics expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I have my firm beliefs that market driven models with no regulation or government intervention have no place in the provision of public services. There is just a fundamental conflict of interest there between the needs and interests of a community, and those of the company that is supposed to be supplying that service, who are interested in delivering good returns for their investors.

Thanks for the debate.

Re:I'm in Australia (Adelaide) Looking to move cou

[DarrenBaker]

It's called hyperbole; Learn it - live it - love it.

Re:A qualified network engineer?

[tomhudson]

Well, if you write code, you're a writer.

If you also write design documents, you're a writer.

If you write code, you're a writer. After all, code can be copyrighted, just like anything else someone authors.

Think of it - a project SHOULD start out with certain documents - specs, overview, guidelines, detailed instructions on the data, the acceptable methods of interfacing with the data, etc. That's a lot more than just slapping some code together with a few comments and throwing it over the wall for the unwashed hordes to bang their heads on. That takes a writer, not just a code monkey.

Re:Working in Canada

[macro187]

Well said, sir.

I'm Canadian, just back from 4 years in Australia, and I couldn't agree more.

I never realised how miserable Canadians are (and I was) until I'd left. It was like waking up from the Matrix. Fitting, since I lived in Sydney.