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Senate Hearing On Laptop Seizures At US Border
suitablegirl writes "As we have discussed, Customs and Border Patrol is allowed to seize and download data from laptops or electronic devices of Americans returning from abroad. At a Senate hearing tomorrow, privacy advocates and industry groups will urge the lawmakers to take action to protect the data and privacy of Americans not guilty of anything besides wanting to go home."
That policy is insane, I don't need them seeing all my files. And I don't just mean the music. I mean files I created, by myself, that I just feel are mine to show to whom I want.
All nice and dandy, but please remember that the rest of us filthy foreigners who are coming for a friendly visit aren't directly guilty of anything in particular either. We'd like to keep our private stuff private as well..
So please protect the data and privacy of us non-Americans as well.
Yes, we should be more inclusive, but this is a very necessary step in the right direction, and I'd rather have this passed than add more to whatever law is proposed and have it stall.
And before someone says that the issue will be buried and forgotten if only Americans are included, remember that there really is such a thing as gaining legislative momentum, as the current U.S. president has demonstrated. A smaller step in the right direction is still a good one.
What about putting goatse.cx as a background picture, including for the login page. ... or just burn it.
They might return the laptop to you right away
i have a question for slashdot.
since none of you are layers, i feel that slashdot is the perfect place to seak hypothetical legal advice.
I am an artist. i have recorded several songs and I keep them on my hard drive.
what is there to stop people like me from suing the US customes agents $150,000 per song for copyright infringement?
-I only code in BASIC.-
"privacy advocates and industry groups"
'industry groups' is the key phrase here - meaning stateside corporations concerned with proprietary business information they don't want just anyone viewing. Can you imagine an Apple employee with the latest iPhone design information showing up in Cupertino after returning from Taiwan, having to tell Steve "Good news is - US Customs was freaking excited over what they saw!" ..?
Recently Sweden's recent information tapping laws and this US take on labelling anything that has information as fair game to seize, copy and snoop one make for some creeping "big brother is watching you" wins.
Actually, I wasn't aware that any and all printed matter was able to be seized or copied when crossing borders. The article implies that this has been done to allow the same level of access across all media types, but that means that customs can just jump in and copy my diary when I enter the US? Why do I feel like I skipped a page in this unfolding story?
Moved to http://soylentnews.org/. You are invited to join us too!
No matter the outcome of these hearings, the matter won't go away just as nosy people don't stop trying to eavesdrop once you catch them. They just get nosier.
One of the things I've noticed about the industry thus far is that most every time they legislate against the "free" use of certain technologies, someone in shining armor comes along with a new technology to save the day.
Will it be possible that in the future we will have technologies that are every bit as reluctant to divulge our personal affairs as our own minds? Perhaps even tech that upon tampering or forensic examination would automatically purify itself rather than betray its rightful owner? e.g. It could automatically shred the data or falsely report that no data exists in the event of unauthorized access.
Just to be on the safe side, I think I'll design a decorative lead lined fob on my keychain that can secretly conceal an SD card where my private data resides.
Blessed with all the brains that God gave a duck's ass, and twice the charisma.
Are not stronger than other country people's.
Maybe Computers will never be as intelligent as Humans.
For sure they won't ever become so stupid. [VR-1988]
i have a question for slashdot.
This is slashdot, of course none of us are layers...since none of you are layers
Aw, I just made myself sad.
"There is no time, sir, at which ties do not matter," Jeeves, (Jeeves and the Impending Doom)
First off, I just love this asshole:
I hate to be vulgar, but what a fucking ass. Individuals have every right to expect that their documents and photo albums are not going to be searched and copied by agents at the border. I wholeheartedly agree with him that privacy should not depend on the format it is stored in. Of course I think we should actually have privacy regardless of whether the item is a physical item in your bag, or 1's and 0's in cyberspace.
What a great argument he makes too, that just because it has been child pornographers that have been caught first, and are pioneering the very first challenges to these laws, that they must be wrong, and therefore the basis of the challenge is wrong too .
Kind of reminds me of the douche bags that love to shutdown any arguments against DRM claiming that any opponents are clearly pirates.
No kidding. I am glad somebody is bringing this up. This policy will just create a strain on the corporate wallet for both corporations in the US and abroad. It is simply unacceptable for corporations to allow sensitive data to be copied or viewed by any unauthorized individuals. That includes all governmental agencies too. That is what search warrants are for.
I can see whole new lines of products designed to sanitize laptop hard drives before arriving at the border checkpoints and encrypted restore CD's that will bring a laptop back up on the corporate network and access to secure file systems.
Oh wait, they already have products that meet US Department of Defense 5220.22-M, and other such standards. Only now corporations will be forced to use for border checkpoints to protect against their own government.
For smaller businesses they will just have to send their laptop hard drives, and possibly their entire laptops through FedEx or UPS, or some other equivalent to bypass these insane policies.
A good lock only keeps out honest people is a saying I have heard for quite a long time. Well this policy will catch nobody a few years from now, since everybody will know that border checkpoints are dangerous.
Anybody else hear the terrorists (and other criminals) laughing hysterically? In fact, if one was so inclined to be a little more paranoid, you might think this is nothing do with catching criminals, but a new way to watch the American public and embarrass ourselves in front of the rest of the world.
For fuck's sake people! Let's stop exporting Democracy and Freedom to the rest of the world and start producing and keeping a little more of it here locally.
Only police and the military should be able to bring laptops across the border.
Citizens have no reason to be transporting laptops.
Of course I didn't RTFA... why would I do that? You really are new here aren't you? Don't let my UID fool you.
I wonder if they'll download everything from my phone as well..
From the Fine article..
"Nathan Sales, a professor of law at George Mason University...noted that the 11 challenges to the legality of the laptop searches were made by convicted child pornographers."
So obviously, Mr. Nathan Sales is one of the "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear" people who doesn't mind having his personal details spewed about the internet either.
Anyone want to complain about this man? www.gmu.edu www.law.gmu.edu
Pht! Anyone silly enough to cross the border INTO America deserves what they get. I mean, that'd be like people living in London complaining about the cameras watching their every move, the people in Japan complaining that their government is making them get fit, or the people of New Zealand complaining that their step-mother/step-father is a sheep.
after Bork completes the cavity search.
It's a rather bad idea.
I don't understand, why can't we just encrypt our data? They can look at that all they want, no one is saying we have to give them the keys.
Plus with plausible deniability features which are now available in many encryption suites this sort of negates the whole point of the policy. It doesn't hurt the people it's meant to hurt only everyone else.
Since the signing of the Constitution, border agents (not TSA) have always had the right to search persons crossing the border. They don't need probable cause or even suspicion. I'm not saying it is right, but this is the law.
Now if you want to change the law with respect to laptops, there are three key points. Ignore these and you won't win.
This last point seems like it is the most likely to win, but it contains a hidden trap.
End result? Seizing laptops where nothing is encrypted and there is no contraband might stop, but searching laptops isn't going away any time soon and seizing laptops "with cause" will continue. It's just a question of how broadly we define "cause".
All data moving into and out of the US via the internet/other communications infrastructure is subject to searches by the US government. One program is Echelon, and the people who've tired to report on it and call attention to it are generally considered nut-jobs and conspiracy theorists (I'm not sure why, stories on it are always confirmed by credible sources, and the program was never strictly denied by the feds). Now there is "warrantless" wire-tapping, though as far as I can tell the government is not required by law to have a warrant to intercept this information but that is a question of legal interpretation. Perhaps the distinction is that the NSA is now doing it, where ECHELON is a CIA thing. Or maybe it's just that ECHELON has remains secret, while someone spilled the beans on the NSA program.
So no, searching these laptops is not pointless. And also, you clearly don't know what you're talking about.
But I assume they can also size the laptops of us foreigners as well? (I'd rather not want to turn mine over for a inspection if I'd ever want to go to the US).
This has always been a power of the Federal government. It is nothing new. Are there other countries that don't do this?
to write a malicious virus for the express purpose of screwing up any other computer that information gets on. Hell, one could feign ignorance and smake it look like the laptop just had a bad spyware infection that brought lots of crap to its knees.
Thank you for giving us yet ANOTHER WEAKNESS TO FIX, USGOVT. We'll be sending you the bill in a month.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
I don't know about you folks but I have a lot of copyrighted material on my hard disk (all legitimate of course). I imagine most people do, for example, paid for mp3s from iTunes, Windows, MS Office, Mac OS X, etc.
Isn't it kind of illegal to make copies of such data unless you have bought a licence ?
How can the copyright holders be sure that some border guard isn't going to say "Gosh, this guy has a really sweet configuration, I'm going to keep this HDD image" ?
If you let US Customs make a copy of your disk, isn't that "making available" ?
Stuff the copyright stuff, what about my personal files, downloaded bank statements, medical records etc ? Do they have time to check if my disk is encrypted ?
Land of the free?
I know it's bothersome. But what's so difficult about storing your "delicate" data into an encrypted file, save it to any online-file-upload service, wipe the data off your computer, have your computer searched all they want, and then download once you're on the other side.
And as a bonus, you can set your computer to immediately open to a locally stored shock-site, just to give the agents something to gag about.
Seeing as how the history of border patrol only goes back to around 1904 and the case law setting precedent on a border patrol exception to the 4th Amendment is circa 1977, I fail to see where the Constitution specifically comes into it.
But generally I see your point.
Of course I didn't RTFA... why would I do that? You really are new here aren't you? Don't let my UID fool you.
What's really the goal? why is this an issue? If the government is really looking for something specific in laptops there should be an automated process where they plug in a thumb drive on EVERYONE's laptop and sort through all your stuff, not some schmo rambling through your files who doesn't have a clue. That doesn't do squat and serves no meaningful purpose.
Really, what the hell are they looking for? This almost seems like the government equivalent of a governmental Mt Everest. They do it "because they can". It seems to me the same as giving everyone a drug test as they cross the border and then arresting those who test positive.
There's nothing that is getting "smuggled" across our border on laptops that isn't going across in 1000x more massive streams over the internet. The idea that the fear of terrorism is involved is simply ludicrous. What's the thought here, that someone was writing their terrorist memorandum in MS word while on the plane and the border agent is going to turn on the laptop and see it???
This is mindbogglingly stupid.
What the hell is the real motivation here?
d
all language nazi's will burne in heil!
I can see only two reasons for doing this:
1.
To prevent unwanted documents into the land.
2.
To see the unwanted documentation.
Both of these can be circumvented easily.
First and formost, don't visit the land if you don't have to.
I know I'll never visit a nation where all my electronic devices would be copied and decrypted at entry.
Don't bring anything in (that you carry).
Now upload your documents to your (or your company's) home-page.
At least in my country (Norway), you also get a place to put your home pages when you get the ADSL -subscription.
If you upload it there, encrypted for safety, you can download it when you get into U.S.A.
You can use a program for encryption that also can be downloaded (like TrueCrypt). That way the customs won't even know you know what encryption is.
You'll get your documentation in and out of U.S.A. without worrying about the customs or police.
Now, that being the case, this becomes kind of stupid really, don't it? I mean they are not stopping anyone from taking documentation into the nation, just prevents people from carrying it in electronically.
No, this is another of the things that make travelling more difficult for those who've done no wrong, but not a significant problem for those who want to get secret documentation into U.S.A.
I, personally think this futile for the authorities and an annoyance for U.S.A's guests. Stupid!
Nalle Berg ./nalle.
> Not your choice. If you take it or send it through the border, they can inspect it.
Yes. Yes, it is. "We The People" allegedly make the law around here via our representatives. The fact that it's not new doesn't make it right. There are plenty of things the government has always done that should change.
Frankly, I don't like this. I understand the rationale perfectly well, but I hate that rationale.
Let me assure you that I do know quite a few people who refrain from traveling to the USA for doing business nowadays. One, you are being treated like a criminal at the border, with the fingerprints reexported to the criminal database of your homeland, two, having all you data copied at the border is ... unthinkable.
Now, if you won't do this to American citizens anymore, great. Does not help all the other business people from around the world.
And lastly, if the Dollar wouldn't have this "all time low" right now, many people would not see a reason to spend their holidays in the USA either.
You just don't be surprised when it hits you, please.
Hidden compartments... that just gave me an interesting idea... Alternate Data Streams, FTW! Obligatory Wiki link that should sum up my thoughts
If I mod you up, it doesn't necessarily mean I agree with what you've said, sorry.
Just encrypt all of your shit and use stenography to embed the encrypted data into some VOB files. Burn the VOBs as a standard DVD and pack those into a piece of check-in luggage.
First, it has been my experience that luggage which is checked in is subject to a less invasive search. They generally just dig around quickly and close it back up. They probably won't even check your DVDs/CDs.
Second, if they do check the DVDs, they will play as normal films and they will probably not even think that there is additional encrypted data hidden within the video data.
Third, if they want to copy the data, they will have to copy every single DVD and CD that comes through. That is just too much work and too much time for them to bother with.
Of course you could also just encrypt your sensitive data directly on your hard drive. If questioned about it just say it's a randomly generated file because you are a software developer and needed it for testing.
The US government is stupid, there is no way they can search data if the person who owns it really wants to protect it.
Sir! Sir! Somebody copied a song on their computer to someone else's computer!
ZOMFG! Quick, make some legislation that pisses on civil rights and prosecute the shit out of anyone copying files! Get Bill on the phone and have him write a load of restrictive crap into everybody's operating system. Copying Files Must Be Stopped!!
Sir! Sir! Somebody took a computer with them when they left the country for a couple of hours!
ZOMFG! Copy all his files! Distribute copies to all the many security agencies!
They whose government reduces their essential liberties for temporary security, receive neither liberty nor security.
Why would they go to all the bother of seizing laptop data if the terrorists and other bad people could evade those measures by simply transferring the same data across the border via the Internet?
Ah! because the powers that be can already intercept and copy data being sent across the border via the Internet!
The only difference, is that data collection on the Internet is vastly simpler because it is automated, and you are left none the wiser that it has happened.
Obviously.
Could it be that they copy the contents in order to not hold up the traveler. It takes a short time to copy the contents and much longer to scan each file to see if they are contraband or not.
What happens to the copy after that - it should be destroyed.
Immoral searches don't count as a reason? The rest is hyperbolic and nonsensical.
If you believe in privacy, and believe you have "nothing to hide" at the same time, you're a goddammed idiot
Of course they'll do that, right after they've made a couple of backups of the copy.
Create URLs (maybe with dubious sounding names but no actual dubious content) that aren't referred to anywhere else and see if they get a visit.
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
my question here is, regardless of how wrong this practice may be, are they monitoring every single internet connection that enters or leaves the US and monitoring the content contained in those packets for illegal things?
first of all they better not be and second, if not, then why are they doing this for data on computers at the border?
data is data and easy enough to obtain from someone somewhere on the internet. if its trade secret stuff or whatever it can still be locked way down and still accessed through the internet
if its bomb plans or kiddy porn on the persons laptop they can easily enough erase all of it and redownload it within the US border
so WTF IS YOUR PROBLEM?!
You can not compare a safe to a computer system: your analogy is flawed.
First, a safe protects PHYSICAL objects, such as: guns, bombs, and drugs. The need to search is the need to find this contraband, fair enough.
But a computer is more like your documents. Do the border patrol read every book, document, and other material? Most importantly: every piece of data on a computer can simply be copied from the internet once past, checking the computer's data then does nothing. And MOST IMPORTANTLY: what ever happened to free speech? If there is anything that can be placed in the contents of a laptop that can get you refused entry, it only implies state censorship.
Simply put: border agents should be concentrating on physical things. They have neither the training, knowledge, intelligence, expertise, or time to poke around looking at information people carry, especially when that information is freely available past the border. The only search of computer systems they should be allowed to do is looking for drugs or othersuch contained within the computer casings, which is exactly the same type of search they can do with a safe.
At least, that is the kind of logic that people who defend this or at least shrug it off as nothing use. I think it is bullshit, but well, it has precedent and seems to be the law. :-/
"Empathise with stupidity, and you're halfway to thinking like an idiot." - Iain M. Banks
But a computer is more like your documents.
So having top_secret_nuke_plans.pdf on your computer is okay, while having a binder with Top Secret Nuke Plans in your luggage is not ?
Most importantly: every piece of data on a computer can simply be copied from the internet once past, checking the computer's data then does nothing.
You can also pretty much mail every piece of luggage to your destination.
If there is anything that can be placed in the contents of a laptop that can get you refused entry, it only implies state censorship.
Customs doesn't deny you entry - you have already entered the country by the time you pass customs. Customs will stick you in jail, fine you and / or confiscate your stuff if they find things they think you shouldn't have.
Actually case law applying to searches at the border existed before 1904, specifically looking at customs searches for taxation and compliance purposes. And SCOTUS cites such border searches as a "traditional right" exercised by countries even before the formation of the US.
D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
Now THAT is a typical case of security theater: peeves everyone (about 100% good guys) and doesn't keep bad guys out, because nobody is going to have a file like "my_planned_crimes.txt" on his laptop, especially not if he knows about these border controls.
OK, so what is it good for? Terrorists? Nay. 3v|l h4x0rz, who know how to protect their data? Nay.
Child pornographers? MAYBE.
But... are we gonna justify yet another loss of privacy with a hand full of child pornographers?
This makes just everyone less safe (let's just think about those gigs of valuable data copied off businessmen's laptops! This just calls for a security breach.)
Conclusion: You can't eliminate child pornography, but you can eliminate privacy.
You get no choice, clearly you are hiding stuff so prepare for the cavity search...
I do not agree at all with the practice of downloading personal data at the border. The bottom line is the United States is going to do whatever they want to do. It is clear that the US will milk the unfortunate events of 9/11 at every opportunity they get to violate your civil liberties. We can argue all day long but ultimately the only way this will change is if one of the big corporate entities that have a large number of politicians in its back pocket voices a concern with regards to this issue. It is fundamentally clear that this is not right nor is it justified. It is not even worth discussing the ethics involved in this practice. What it will take is serious political maneuvering and the agendas of the wealthy elite to have an impact on this policy.
With all that said. There is a way around this problem. Hard drives on most laptops are easily removed. If you really don't want your data downloaded, remove the hard drive and ship it to your location back home. This way they never get the chance to check your data. If you want to avoid them asking why you don't have a hard drive in your laptop, just buy a cheap laptop hard drive and install dos and windows 3.1 on it or something. I think it would be pretty funny for them to boot up a brand new laptop and have them see windows 3.1 or just dos 6.22 on it. Basically you can get around this problem by shipping your hard rive home before you enter the country.
Do you remember TERROR?
We must protect YOU by stripping you of
all your civil rights.
Everything you have is owned by the government.
Everything you are is owned by the government.
You must give all dna samples to border agents.
You must give multiple blood samples, and other
bodily fluids.
You must give border agents your entire electronic
inventory and ALL data.
You must give border agents your finger prints,
toe prints, palm scans, iris scans, ear scans,
hand vein topography, etc. All biometric data
will be seized, recorded, backed up by all border
agents.
You are being protected from TERRORISTS.
The government would never hurt you in any way.
The government wants you to completely reveal
your every friend, family member, and enemy.
The government wants you to be implanted with
multiple microchips in various parts of your
body, including your brain.
The government owns your body. Your every move
will be logged, saved, backed up, etc.
The government is protecting you from TERRORISTS.
In the future, the government will download all
data from your brain. WE need it to protect
you from TERRORISTS.
In the future, the government will make sure
you do not go anywhere without prior permission.
In the future, the government will wipe your
memory if you are deemed unfit.
Note : The government is NEVER wrong.
Just never leave the States. It worked for G.W.Bush... until he became president.
let's say I arrive at US border with a laptop stuffed with code I wrote, prototypes and whatnot.
The guy inspecting me is maybe tired of his job, and he can get 200Mb of source code for free. Maybe he can't use it, but his computer wiz buddy can. Or maybe sell it somewhere.
Also, maybe he's just working there because his programming job went to India. Maybe a glance at the unfinished prototype can give him ideas, and he steals it.
I am not saying that my shit is so cool that someone would be delighted to see it. What I am saying is that as a solo or small company developer I don't have resources to patent something or sue someone. Therefore I must secure my stuff the best way I can. I can encrypt drives, have backups etc, and most of those measures are good enough to protect yourself from a common thief nicking your laptop.
But how do you protect yourself from US government as an individual? You can't, you can only bend over, and maybe I don't want to. Should I ask other 2 officers in the room to be witnesses that the 3rd officer is violating my rights and stealing data from my laptop. I guess they would feel obliged to stand against their work buddy on behalf of a stranger from some funky country with a funky name, right? Right?
They could as well take my laptop and tell me to piss off. What can I do, except maybe be happy I didn't end up in Guantanamo? Protection by international law against country that runs Guantanamo, bombs the shit out of 3rd world on a whim, and elects a chimp for a president? I don't think so.
I guess nobody in US will be hurt by the fact that I'll take my business elsewhere, and nobody would even notice. I would tho, so because I didn't fancy traveling to Eastern Germany in the 80's, for same reason I don't really fancy traveling to US these days. You do the math.
Is there any way to fake a malfunctioning boot loader, like "Missing Operating System", unless you press and hold a self-chosen key combination on bootup? Or even better, "Hard Drive Failure". Then, when they order you to boot it up, you just say "The hard drive's dead. I brought the laptop for repairs. Here, watch." The next step would be to prevent the thing from even powering up somehow, unless you do some special trick.
I'm not sure if you meant to say tourists or terrorists there. Fits either way.
Perhaps that's what's going wrong, Bush doesn't get the distinction either! The war on tourists! Terrorists! Osama Bin Laden as a tour operator, Club Med with an edge.
Ladies and Gents - I am trying to collect incidents of security staff abuse (mainly at airports) in the vane hope that perhaps we can identify consistent transgressors of their authority and perhaps even send a message to the airlines that we are no longer going to give them our hard earned buckaroos if they don't put their (albeit indirectly employed) staff in line. I believe we can make a difference (as tacky as that sounds)
If you have a story, please either put it on the site or email it to me at admin@scareports.com . The site address is http://www.scareports.com/ . I apologise now for the rawness (I'm trialling django technology as well).
For how many years are you not allowed to bring guns on airplanes.
Still the second Constitutional amendment states:
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Well at that point you bear Arms, or am I way off here?
It is not because something has always been the way it is, that it is still a good way of doing things. The world changes, people change, technology changes, and social rules change. A constitution should be changed sometimes too (albeit less frequently than 'common' laws).
I find it very entertaining how the difference between residents and aliens is always rubbed in.
It starts with terminology - it is at the moment debatable who the actual aliens are :-). The next things is this view that somehow strangers don't appear to have basics rights such as right to privacy. It is IMHO acceptable that someone vising a country doesn't have the same rights residents enjoy, but the unreasonable search and seizure, the constant risk of harassment and the compulsory breach of privacy to be granted entry has turned to US into a no-go 3rd world country.
That really has to be addressed - nobody wins here but the terrorists.
So having top_secret_nuke_plans.pdf on your computer is okay, while having a binder with Top Secret Nuke Plans in your luggage is not ?
What if the folder is labled "Tube Alloys" and the file is "Tube_Alloys.pdf"? Though it's unlikely that a terrorist would be using the US codename from WWII for nuclear weapons...
Amendment 5 - Trial and Punishment, Compensation for Takings. Ratified 12/15/1791. No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation. Am I missing something?
Dealing with lawyers would be a lot less tedious if they all looked like Casey Novak.
The thing about messing with border guards is that they can say "no, you can't come in".
If they see a bunch of "random" data they can demand a password from you. No password, no entry.
No sig today...
The following quote is often accredited to Benjamin Franklin:
... no doubt about it!
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety"
It is kind of scary that not only did you guys have a very bright guy foresee a situation like that more than 250 years ago. But you have also completely failed to understand and acknowledge the wisdom of those words. You live in "the land of the free", but continue to elect politicians who show nothing but disrespect for that freedom.
George Orwell is turning in his grave somewhere
And honestly: The situation will never change until the day where you actually DO something about it. And I don't mean bitching about it in a public forum/debate in the internet. I mean REALLY do something which involves spending your time and money on the subject. Start a movement. Work on influencing politicians and decision makers. Expose some of the tragic stores that are a result of your loss of freedom, and get the media to tell the story. Donate money to organizations who are working their asses off to protect your freedom. And contribute with work yourselves.
If you don't contribute time and money now, you may have to pay with your life later on. Because if you continue on the current path you will eventually have to defend your freedom with a gun rather than with time and money.
Oh, and hey, if you need a web server in a Non-US country to host your activities and efforts, I'll do it for free. I am not afraid of throwing in both time and money to contribute to your freedom. Questions is: Will YOU??? (Yes, YOU, in front of the computer, YOU!).
- Jesper
My security clearance is so high I have to kill myself if I remember I have it...
so basically we are all GUILTY until proven innocent.
Now if that isnt fucked then I dont know what is.
It's in a way a shame the rest of the planet doesn't want to sink to that level, it would be very interesting how the US would react if its citizens were subjected to the same treatment abroad. Even the most repressive regimes do not force entrants through such a process.
However, if the intention is to reduce trade, tourism and dependency on the US dollar as fiat currency I would say the strategy is exceptionally well executed and is already delivering impressive results.
I just can't quite see how the US benefits from those results, but finance and politics were never my strong point ..
Just go through with some good friends, and have laptops with an optional extra hard drive, put in the biggest hard drive possible, and... they won't be able to copy everything. Carry an external USB 2TB with you while you are at it.
If only this included steroidal perjuristic baseball player laptops, other wise this will be lucky to get a full 8 hours durring the hearing. We are so screwed, I bet Kennedy nods off in the first half hour.
Depending on the drive & how you're doing the copy, it's insane to try & copy every drive that crosses the border.
Figure 30 minutes to an hour minimum just to copy files to a USB based NAS - longer for duplication - for each hard drive that passes through. There is no practical way to make that work - and that's not including the flash cards & USB stick. Once you have it, what are you going to do with it? Datamine it for keywords/hash values - any keyword you're looking for is going to almost certainly be buried in the browser cache of anyone who reads the news online.
It comes down to security vs security theater. This is theater. The manpower/processing power required to make this even vaguely practical would be better spent by simply increasing the number of regular agents doing their normal jobs.
When the Feds were looking to increase data retention requirements & debating grants to pay for it, the FBI figured the price @ above $100,000 per prosecution & told the senate they would rather just have the money for more agents.
This is the same - by making a show of being careful, the TSA is 'doing something'. Just adding more agents doesn't change the perception of security, and therefore isn't in their interest. The job of the TSA isn't to make you safe, it's to make you feel safe. Unfortunately, most people just feel harassed and irritated.
RIP=Reclaiming Intellectual Property is not a privacy issue. It is legal-activism by RIAA to capture international thieves of music/movies on HDD.
Until the new scanners/NMRI systems are available at all USA border crossings and airport international terminals, customs will perform (for the RIAA) deep penetrating body cavity searches for any contraband that may be on SSM-devices (memory sticks).
The corporate-government RIAA border campaign slogan: "Give it up and/or get fycked."
!HAVEFUN! guys, I am keeping my ass safe at home in the USA!
Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
Carry a thumb drive with lots of GB and mail it to yourself before you leave :(
On U.S. soil there are constitutional rights. Now, whether or not boarder thugs understand these and policy is legal is another issue.
Upon coming in to this country, they insist that they have the right to inspect your person for contraband. This may or may not be legal, but for the sake of public safety we accept that it is a minimal invasion of privacy and acceptable.
They do not have the right to confiscate anything that you have with you that is legally within your possession. That's the 4th amendment. However, when an armed man insists that you hand over something, you hand it to them and fight for its return when you are in safer position. The border thugs can demand and get your laptop, but that does not make it legal. You can get it back in court.
They do not have the right to order you give your password. They may instruct you to do so, but you under no obligation to comply. This is an actual ruling from the supreme court of the U.S. siting the 5th amendment.
The 5th amendment is not about protecting guilty people, it is about protecting presumed innocent people from providing information that may be used to incriminate themselves. There can be no inferred presumption of guilt by law enforcement by merely invoking your 5th amendment rights.
One of the contemporary inspirations of the 5th amendment was the kind of government in Europe typified by Cardinal Richelieu's famous quote: "If one would give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest man, I would find something in them to have him hanged" The thinking was that there will always be laws that could be applied to coerce innocent people. The 5th amendment was a protection for basically lawful individuals from being trapped and imprisoned by politically motivated prosecution.
All documents and property are subject to inspection and even seizure. As far as I know they always have been. When has there _ever_ been an exception?
Any border officer can leaf through day planners and address books. If I bring across unopened mail they can open and read it. They can and do. I've had sealed envelopes opened and inspected. Sometimes their contents seized under the presumption items were illegal. If you want to test it, try ordering prescription medications and have them mailed to you. Try brining prescription medications over on your person.
That's property you say and not "ideas"? During WWII they opened personal mail and any correspondence with the word "atom", "atomic" and a whole list of other words like troop movements were seized and earned you a visit from the FBI. They seized all photographs leaving the country. They even seized vacation photographs from people leaving the country as well.
Today the word is child porn. Tomorrow the word may be dissatisfaction. Who knows what they'll come up with next? The only difference today is the number of citizens affected and the number of citizens becoming aware. It's numbers, percentage of population affected that's changed.
It's not always a cliché or just because it is a cliché doesn't make it untrue. When others say wake up people they mean it. You do not live in the United States you learned about in school. What is taught to us about the USA is theory. It can take a lifetime to sort out the truth and some never do.
YMMV
-[d]-
Try brining prescription medications over on your person.
Prescription medication is perfectly ok.
Although, I often wonder about things like my astma medicine, which does not require a prescription in Spain, but does in the US. I have never had a problem, but I have often wondered if they could accuse me of drug trafficking or something because of astma medicine.
-- -- Warning. Do not stare directly at the sun.
Tourism to the US is up 15% for the first quarter of 2008 compared to the year prior, precisely because of the weak dollar.
Nice try though.
I can guarantee that I can put a bomb in a working laptop that isn't going to look any different than your regular laptop. That bay for a 2nd battery or HD is more than large enough to hold a detonator & enough explosive to take down a plane. Wrapped in a HD case, it's going to show as a single block of metal to the xray machine - exactly like a real HD.
A terrorist from an organization isn't going to have a problem getting onto a plane with exactly what he needs to accomplish his goal. The whole ID thing is stupid - refuse & be denied - loose it & have a nice flight. Yeah that makes me feel safe - especially when you remember that every member of the 9/11 hijackers had valid ID which would allow them to fly today. These people are not stupid, they are capable of coordinating complex schemes taking years to bring to fruition - the chances of catching them with some random search is so minimal as to be laughable.
This type of crap may - on a really good lottery win kind of day - catch some nut-job, however putting more into having well trained competent agents at the border instead of bored rent-a-cop dropouts would be a hell of a lot more effective.
Many, many bad men conspire to place rude images of underage children on many, many laptops where they are up front and obvious. Bad men come through customs, laptops are seized and 20-30 minutes later the laptops containing 8oz of C4 go boom. Seize my data at your peril say the Bad men in a later interview. "So, how is your Microsoft & American Airlines stock doing, Biff? Really? A recession, hmm? Really? Tourism is down too? Shit."
It's all history, man. -anon
I live on the border of Arizona and Sonora. I also travel across the border on a regular basis. I work remotely and take advantage of that mobility.
I have never had my laptop searched, confiscated or even looked at in hundreds of crossings. The same as I've never had BP try to search around my house. They tried to come on my ranch once, but after some spirited discussion they turned around and left.
Unless you're toting your laptop across the border through the mesquite, no yankee kid from Cincinnati that works for the BP is going to even think of trying to copy data from it. The BP only works the ports when customs is short on manpower. Off the ports the only time a BP agent would think of looking at your laptop is if the bed of your pickup was full of drugs or you had a stock trailer full of Mexicans.
I also can't think of a situation where someone coming through a port of entry ,that isn't doing something blatantly stupid, would have their data seized. Their largest concerns here are if you have any hay in the back of your truck, how many gallons of diesel you put in your transfer tank (USD $2.19!) and every so often they'll slip a mirror under your truck to see if you have drugs under there. Unless when asked about your plans for being in the US you reply, "Terrorist activities", you'll be fine.
For them to actually have some way to scan and analyze data to pinpoint the "bad people" would require planning, efficiency and intelligence. This is the government we're talking about here. The data is safe.
Am I the only one who pictured laptops falling to the floor in fits of shaking and spasms when I read, "Senate Hearing On Laptop Seizures At US Border?"
Unlicensed (unapproved) importation of medications into the USA is a felony. But then again so is pouring bleach into your laundry without measuring it (It is a felony to use this product inconsistent with it's labeling). BTW: that includes using the product without reading it's label. I doubt it's even possible to wake, go about your day, and retire without committing multiple felonies. That's a problem.
-[d]-
Since the signing of the Constitution, border agents (not TSA) have always had the right to search persons crossing the border. They don't need probable cause or even suspicion.
Hmm, in this case I would like to propose a Twenty-Eighth Amendment:
To the fourth amendment to the Constitution of the United States there shall hereby be appended the phrase "no, really, seriously they can't, like ever, all the time and not just when they think somebody is watching, and not even when they have you trapped so you can't get away".
While some rights to privacy have been inferred from the fourth amendment as well as several other parts of the Constitution, the fourth amendment does not explicitly grant or define any "right to privacy". Furthermore it only restricts the actions of the US federal government. In principle States as well as private organizations and individuals are exempt from fourth amendment requirements to a significant degree.
Privacy IS regulated under the Privacy Act of 1974 among numerous other laws and rulings. The US Supreme Court has upheld an implied right to privacy through various case law rulings. But there is NO right to privacy defined or guaranteed in the Constitution. Don't take my word for it, go find yourself a lawyer who specializes in Constitutional law. I'm confident they will tell you substantially what I've outlined above.
But if we can still use these searches for industrial espionage on foreign firms, well, Boy Howdy!
One might ask the same about birds. What ARE birds? We just don't know.
And I have copyright protected files on it, are they guilty of copyright infringement?
I know it's sometimes hard to say, but even criminals have rights, which undermines "if you have nothing to hide, you don't mind." Especially with the difficulty to verify intent with digital crimes ("I was infected with malware"), many innocent people would be hauled off just because somewhere in some cache there's something that crossed the line.
Heck, just store all your files in an SQL database called "products" or "customers" or something like that. It looks plausible enough, and without probable cause border agents aren't going to want to waste too much time on you. Just insert each filename/binary chunk, pull them back out when you want.
If you want to be really secure, encrypt the database... then if they're curious tell them it's encrypted because it contains trade secrets / personal information and you can't give them the key. Again, it sound plausible and they're not likely to suspect anything.
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
why when this topic comes up this isn't like one of the first three posts and modded to 5 ill never understand.
FOURTH AMENDMENT [U.S. Constitution] - 'The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.'
THIS PRETTY MUCH SAYS IT ALL.
Any variation is simply unconstitutional and another example of out of control government and the sheeples willingness to support it.
I keep 2 partitions on my system. The first has all my valuable data both personal and customers. The second has virus's, worms, trojans, spyware, adware and some pretty nasty stuff; Just give the TSA people access to it. Let them copy it and have fun.
They couldn't find my data anyway if they wanted to.
Not to belittle your point, but my advice to you? Marry the "cute Korean lass" and take her last name.
If a Firefighter fights fires,
and a Crime fighter fights crime,
what exactly does a freedom fighter fight?
The page you linked refers to importation by mail. I said that you are allowed to carry with you prescription medication prescribed to you with no problem. In nearly all countries, you are permitted to travel with your medication. So can it with your Urban Myth nonsense.
-- -- Warning. Do not stare directly at the sun.
Try linking a relevant page next time.
Here, the TSA explains that you can bring all prescription medications with no problem.
-- -- Warning. Do not stare directly at the sun.
Ill just give my notebook to an illegal alien that is planning on coming across. maybe they can use the gps feature to know where they are..Or Just Open Up Your Computer and pretend its Broken after all CBP officers are not IT personnel.
-Kastr0
Yes, I am posting AC, this is worth my job. I love listening to you, âoeI won't travel to the US because....â. I get compliments on how nice and professional I am. It's usually the Euro (especially the former UK) pax who say this. I have traveled to the former UK (Saudi was even worse) and I would respectfully remind our highly intelligent and unbiased slashdot readers that a citizen of your own country (except china, man, they are mean to their own citizens) is almost without exception treated better than a foreigner and if you truly want an experience, trying screwing with a Japanese customs/immigration officer. They will look at whatever they want and you WILL NOT change their mind and may become their âoeguestâ for a rather extended time. We do not care about your laptop unless we have reason to believe there is something there, i.e. the old reasonable suspicion. We have to be able to articulate to a supervisor why we want to check and it rare to get a sup that can do more than click a mouse. There has to be something there, coming to live illegally (or work, âoeI'm just giving some advise, uh, yeah, thats my paystub mateâ. Yup, you Euro's slay me with that, especially reading the US bashing here) bringing something prohibited (our Asian brothers and sisters bring some of the most interesting food items, some still fresh and moving) and of course drugs (way to much money in that âoeWarâ). Do not confuse the Customs and Border protection officers (another abomination created by this administration) with TSA (a much worse abomination). This administration has done just about everything wrong that it possibly could since 9/11. No malice, just incompetence. They (Bush and Co.) have lost rulings in our supreme court on multiple issues, the impeachment proceedings are NOT being blocked and may bear fruit. That is for a different topic.
What I would respectfully remind our US bashers of is this little fact, We are a sovereign nation, international law acknowledges the right to police our borders. It acknowledges the right of your nation to police your borders as you (the nation) see fit. Things are changing here, slowly, thats the way the system works (designed, really) and the fast changes (D@amn congress for allowing hysteria to rule their votes) are what have us fsked right now.
And still find nothing. This is doomed to failure. I bought a Asus EEE PC so as to log in remote to home - where the tough stuff is. Obviously, without waterboarding me, they're not going to obtain the passphrase to do so.
The thing is with these laptop searches is, I highly doubt they have any positive results.. perhaps they might once in a while run across some porn or something.. but I doubt they are finding squat that is useful.
waiting for ad.doubleclick.net
For laughs, any time I travel I make sure to have a Rick Roll loaded in Quicktime and ready to go as soon as the screen opens. It rarely happens, but when it does... it certainly is a triumph.
Tibbon
tibbon.com
They are copying your files! They are breaking encryption. They are obviously evil. Sue the gov't and see how far it goes!
No, but seriously... how is this not them subverting copyright? They are obviously not compensating me for copies of the IP that I have on my system.
Tibbon
tibbon.com
In the US, you don't have to be guilty in order to be searched.
The TSA does not control our borders. Linking to them is irrelevant. How about The Department of Homeland Security Customs and Border Protection? You know, the ones who will be inspecting your bags.
Buying Prescription Medicine From Internet Foreign Pharmacies
Medication/Drugs
They will look the other way only if *all* the following conditions are met (maybe):
1. The intended use of the drug is for a serious condition for which effective treatment may not be available domestically;
2. The drug will not be distributed commercially by the importer;
3. The product is considered not to represent an unreasonable risk;
4. The individual seeking to import the product affirms in writing that the drug is for the patient's own use and provides the name and address of the doctor licensed in the United States responsible for his or her treatment with the product, or provides evidence that the product is for the continuation of a treatment begun in a foreign country.
Your scenario: Although, I often wonder about things like my astma medicine, which does not require a prescription in Spain, but does in the US. I have never had a problem, but I have often wondered if they could accuse me of drug trafficking or something because of astma medicine. on assumption satisfies (Number 2). Certainly it does not meet all. Thus, a felony. So, I will not can my response.
Plunk. You're a Friend of a Friend so you can be all that bad. Don't take being wrong so hard.
-[d]-
since none of you are layers
Interesting that you got modded "Troll" for that comment since, as everyone knows, Trolls have layers.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
It's disgraceful what American's have allowed themselves to become.
... why, you must really hate those people since they're obviously all evil. Or are we Americans somehow an exception, to be vilified regardless of the facts?
This make come as quite a shock to you, but very few Americans condone such behavior. Period. There's a reason George Bush has such an abysmal approval rating: it's because we don't like this crap any more than you do. So please don't cast some three hundred million otherwise decent, law-abiding citizens into the same mold as some underpaid government thug. I can just imagine how you must feel about Russians or the Chinese or any other nation whose government does truly horrible things
Regardless, you're way out of line.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
You have no idea what you are talking about. You are allowed to travel with your prescription medications. Again, you link to a site that talks about purchasing via internet and receiving by mail, which you can't even do here in Spain.
However, you are allowed to travel with your prescrption medications. This is true throughout Europe, the US and just about every country in the world. (yes, there are some exceptions)
-- -- Warning. Do not stare directly at the sun.
Just how much hardware Dell & HP and others sell to the US government? I'll be it is or will become a black ops-line item redacted from reports. Deploying tons of computer will eventually enable agents to clone hardware without actually having to confiscate the computer.
Actually, a probably good idea is that IF they give you a choice of surrendering the laptop or having it cloned, which would you take. Right now, we do NOT have the option of keeping it if they demand it, and we probably can't get a reverse flight out (wouldn't that be shameful, if an american had an option and chose to reverse their travel because they couldn't clear customs because they refused to surrender their laptop, which passed the X- and T- Ray scans, but the CBP wanted to perform the equivalent of digital rectal exam on your laptop) to avoid seizure.
So, the scary thing is that if they give us this option, we surrender the right to privacy against unreasonable or unwarranted/no-warrant search and seizure that is not allowed at the border just because it's a border, and we open up a can of worms in which it could be routine blackmail: in order to keep your laptop, you have to surrender it to cloning, then be on your way. Oh, same for you phone, Nintendo, P/S 2, and so on. BUT, at least we don't LOSE our hardware. For those of us who surf with our hardware, for all we know, federally-mandated back doors already subject us to routine, no-warrant, un-noticed sniffing and fingerprinting anyway.
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
And I'm not talking about taking your prescriptions along with you while you travel either. Where did you get that? The same place you reading "via Internet" and "receiving by mail"? Because I certainly didn't write it.
Jessssus, what fusking drugs are you on anyway because I want some! Anyway, I'm finished with this thread. I've made more progress explaining quantum mechanics to a fifth grader. Have a good time and don't forget to share
-[d]-
and other physical objects to protect and secure the borders, and not electronic data, which can be electronically be transmitted without physically transporting it.
If the gummerment copies my hard drive and I have licensed software, say MS Office, MATLAB, MathCAD or some other relatively expensive piece of software installed on it, are they guilty of copyright infringement for in essence taking or copying my license?
Suppose that border guards can't access the information that is kept in your mind, so if you encrypt all your data, and store the password in your mind (i.e. you remember it) Could you protect your privacy this way... or at very least you lie and say that you forgot, it would be impossible to prove othwerwise.
Then don't use "random data" that looks like encrypted files. Wouldn't "random data" be more useful as a large collection of randomly-chosen, unencrypted files? Think freely-available PDFs (articles, whitepapers, product specs, whatever), source code (as a tarball or not), copies of webpages, free MP3s, free video downloads, linux distro ISOs, whatever.
The object is not to piss off the border guard. Be polite; answer any questions they have about the material ("it looked interesting, so I downloaded a copy to check out later"); let them make their copies. Plan ahead so your personal files are somewhere else.
The "random data" files are there to give them something to copy, that they will then waste time sifting through for whatever they're looking for. Don't include anything pirated, personal, or suspicious (no bomb-making instructions or anything), and you won't have anything to worry about. Don't include anything encrypted, and you won't be asked for a password.
Let them wonder about the amateur astronomer/coder/birdwatcher with the drive full of Hubble pictures, linux kernel code, birdsong mp3s, and videos from Archive.org.
if you have commercial / proprietary secrets on your laptop, once they get grabbed by DHS, they are no longer secure.
So far, the one reasonably safe alternative is to go over borders with laptops with an OS only and ship your data once it gets to one's destination via sFTP. For most people, that's a quite a few gigabytes of transfer and a very big hassle. (start by finding a site that'll let you borrow a gigabyte or larger pipe for a while...) Some businesses already have this as company SOP. How long before foreign businesses decide America is too much of a PITA to be worth doing business with in person?
Tech Public Policy stuff
I've said it once I'll say it again. Buy a microSD and hide that sucker anywhere. The electronic components are so small that it'd be very difficult to distinguish in xrays etc and would not set off metal detectors.
I replied to this "Try brining prescription medications over on your person. " IN my original post.
All I have ever been talking about is bringing prescription medications "over on your person". That should have been clear since my original post. Sure, you misspelled "bringing", but I still understood you. That is why I specifically quoted "Try brining prescription medications over on yor person". I wanted to make it perfectly clear that I was only talking about bringing your prescription medications with you.
-- -- Warning. Do not stare directly at the sun.
To do this, there needs to be a definition of balance to determine what is overly-broad or far-reaching. My gut tells me that copying an entire computer's contents is overly-broad, as it may reveal more than just the current contents of the machine crossing borders but also historical activity as well as access to information not even stored on the machine, especially online services of all types. Inspecting someone's historical activity and engaging one's personal online services, such as online email, bank accounts goes beyond the search of transported data.
I'd also argue that access to personal information stored on one's laptop should also be off limits, but, but apparently, I'd still be legally wrong (as of today). Hopefully this changes.
I know what you've been saying, that hasn't been the problem. You say it's fine, no problem to bring your prescription medication into the US. The US government says it's a felony they're sometimes willing to overlook. As I said, I've made better progress explaining quantum mechanics to a fifth grader.
By law you are not allowed to bring in (Import) controlled substances without a license except under very limited circumstances. None of your examples satisfy those conditions. Traveling with personal medications does not meet those conditions. I linked you to the site explaining what those conditions are and even cut/paste them into the post. (It didn't help).
Border officers, most of the time, look the other way when people travel with their medications. That doesn't make it legal. It's still a felony with what is called a low enforcement priority. If you need medications the law says you must procure them here, in the USA, under our laws. Bringing them with you (Importation) is a felony.
I'll say it again (repetition sometimes helps slow learners). Importation of controlled substances into the USA without a license is a felony. Import = bring in.
You take pleasure with your little insults. Yes, I mentioned mail order. That's one method of importing. It's not the only one. You can import "bring in" controlled substances via boat, backpack, airplane, walking carrying a package. Import (bring in) in a clandestine manner increases the crime to suggleing (so don't import controlled substances hiding them in your shoe).
If I leave the USA and travel to Spain, purchase OTC medications (which are controlled in the USA) and bring them back (Import) that's a felony. Even if it's for personal use.
If I originate my travels in Spain leave with substances controlled by the US (prescription medications) and bring them into the USA it's a felony.
Bringing controlled substances into the USA without a license is a felony. It doesn't matter how you bring them in. Because they sometimes look the other way doesn't mean it's legal.
(Is the repetition helping?)
Is english your second language? If it is, you're doing well, you just need to work on it a little. There's nothing left to say. I'm running out of ways to explain it to you. And your personal digs are irritating. To quote Mark Twain - It is better to remain quiet and thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. Or in this case, posting on Slashdot sticking on a point when you're wrong.
-[d]-
Bringing controlled substances into the USA without a license is a felony.
There's a difference between US residents and nonresidents. You may want to have a look at what the CBP has to say about the subject.
http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/vacation/kbyg/prohibited_restricted.xml
(scroll down to "medication")
http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/vacation/kbyg/prohibited_restricted.xml
(scroll down to "medication") I read it long before I even started posting. What's your point? U.S. residents entering the United States at international land borders... are subject to certain additional requirements... may be imported by that person, provided all other legal requirements are met. If you follow all the links, read all the restrictions and regulations, in the end you'll find the CBP finely concludes... Thus, in virtually all instances, individual citizens are prohibited from importing prescription drugs into the United States. The bold emphases is theirs, I did not add it. It's a point CBP wanted to make very clear. This begs the question did you read it? If you did, what's the point you wanted to make? That it's okay?
Tell you waht (sic). There's a certain bliss to ignorance I have no right to take away from anyone. Please accept my apologies. Border patrol will wave you through I'm sure of that. Because they do, it must be legal. Everyone has always believed it's legal. And besides, there can't be a law so ridiculous making it illegal for someone to bring medications they need into the country. That would be stupid. Besides if it was against the law they'd be arresting 1000's of people every day and they're not doing that. And so, for all these arguments, I admit I'm wrong. You win.
-[d]-
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
I've read that. Pretty old piece of law, if I remember that. Hasn't been enforced in years.Show up at the border with an encrypted laptop. Be gracious and apologetic - the security is required for your job, that sort of thing - and unlock everything. Helpfully supply all the passwords for the multiple levels of encyption, thumbprints, etc etc etc - make it as elaborate as possible. Remember to be totally helpful. Once you've unlocked everything, let them see your innocent files (because you of course cleaned everything remotely dangerous before arrival). Once they've cleared you, make a point of locking everything back up again.
And have all your important files on a USB key or CD labeled "travelling music" tucked away somewhere.
Misdirection is a beautiful thing.
(Oh, and count me as a non-American who is avoiding travel across the border as well. Although I've found the Canadian border guards to be harsher than the Americans, oddly enough.)
If I originate my travels in Spain leave with substances controlled by the US (prescription medications) and bring them into the USA it's a felony.
I am not sure where the communication breakdown is happening, but EVERYONE is allowed to travel between europe and the US LEGALLY with THEIR OWN prescriptions.
If you originate your travels in Spain, and have with you, medication prescribed to you in Spain by a doctor, you can legally travel to the United States with your legally prescribed medications.
They are not "looking the other way" when they don't arrest you. There is nothing illegal about traveling with your own prescribed medications.
You are the one who started by telling me I was spreading "urban myths", and then linking to pages which had nothing to do with traveling with your own medication on your person.
Imagine for a moment a world in which your position were a reality. People would be just randomly arrested for felonies while traveling with their own prescriptions. There would be a huge racket of American doctors and pharmcists at American airports charging fortunes so that people who just got off of planes could get the medications that they needed. Your position is just ludicrous. Even if you travel accross the US border to Mexico (or canada) to get prescriptions, that is legal, assuming you have with you the prescription from the doctor.
You are the one with all the personal digs. I don't know what your fucking problem is with your comments about urban myths, slow learners, etc. anyway, I think this conversation has done all it can do for us. thankfully it wasn't in an active thread or we both would have lost a shitload of mod points.
-- -- Warning. Do not stare directly at the sun.
I agree that this is one of just another long list of privacy violations, but I also think most of us (at least those reading Slashdot) are far smarter than the border guards or anyone managing the border guards. There are numerous encryption tools available that are more than sufficient and can provide encryption inside encryption. You shouldn't have to do this, but you certainly can if you want.
gladitorium there.
If you're IN a no-mans land and somebody dicks with you, then you should be able to ask for a one-on-one duel. If the guard/agent agrees, and if you kick the living shit out of him, and the buddies there break the agreement and gang up on you, they'd have to kill you. After all, "no witnesses" would take over. And they could BE ASSURED that the next time that traveler came back (if not on the no-fly list), they'd have all unholy hell unleashed upon them.
If it's a no-mans land then it should be possible for foreign airlines to set up and offer refuge. Hell, even the UN peacekeeping forces or any other country's forces should be allowed to land and offer escape/refuge for those being oppressed by their supposed own government.
I sometimes find i am ashamed to say "my/our" government. I pay it, and it claims to protect me, and as long as I don't do more than run my mouth and don't actually carry out crimes, i should count myself lucky that no official put me on the "rub-out" list. Wow, what a fucking system. Enlightened, with "god" on the currency. Belief in a being that has NEVER left incontrovertible proof, and none of us mortals has died, visited the other side, and brought back and disseminated that proof. And, if such person/s did, you could BET YOUR ASS this very same sitting government and probably any in the past or in the near future would NOT ALLOW such disclosures to occur if rapture and sudden declarations of "i only answer to god from now on..." swept the country. This government for certain would start a Nazi-like movement to rub out ANY of us if that "god" did not fit square with the "leadership's" views of "god".
If i have any logic flaws in there, the above comments, please let me know.....
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
The simple reason for the urban myth and slow learner comments:
Slow Learner comes from: After at least 5 references to and several direct links the subject is provided with the following information directly from Customs and Border Patrol:
Question:
Purchasing medications from a supplier outside the U.S.
Answer:
The Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act prohibits persons from importing into the United States any prescription drug that has not been approved for sale by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), or which is adulterated or misbranded within the meaning of the Act. Moreover, in those instances where a U.S. manufacturer makes an FDA-approved prescription drug and sends it abroad, the Act also prohibits any person other than the original manufacturer from importing the drug back into the U.S. Thus, in virtually all instances, individual citizens are prohibited from importing prescription drugs into the U.S.
Subject seems to have a problem with comprehension, or is so prejudiced in his own view as to completely overwhelm fact. Even still, after having been provided direct links and quotes from CBP subject continues to propagate statements such as:
Even if you travel accross the US border to Mexico (or canada) to get prescriptions, that is legal, assuming you have with you the prescription from the doctor.
Urban Myth comes from:
There is nothing illegal about... linking to pages which had nothing to do with... Imagine for a moment a world in which your position were a reality. Your position is just ludicrous.
Subject has a belief so strong it completely overwhelms multiple attempts at providing new information. (Note: Subject could possibly be Republican, see Current Administration - WMD). Subject references 'others' having similar experiences as proof. Frustrated the subject often resorts to ad hominin attacks using logical falsies as "proof". See:
Your position is just ludicrous.
Note: Although unknown, the propagation of myth and comprehension issues may be directly related to subjects age. See: Youthful Indestructibility. Or, one of denial, See: The Republican Effect. Other possibilities - See: Troll.
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drug that has not been approved for sale by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), That refers to drugs which are not approved by FDA. If you are taking an experimental drug in Europe that the FDA has not approved. It does not talk about medications which are approved by the FDA. Medical Marijuana for example would be something you cannot bring with you to the US from a country that allows that. But if you have a prescription for antibiotics and that same antibiotic is an FDA approved drug, you are certainly allowed to carry your medication with you provided that you are able to show your presciption for that medication. This scenario would not be considered importing either.
-- -- Warning. Do not stare directly at the sun.
Subject seems to have a problem with comprehension, or is so prejudiced in his own view as to completely overwhelm fact.
1. Notice that it says "citizens". Not everyone is a US citizen.
2. Remember that not every instance of "bringing $STUFF into the country" is legally equivalent to "importing $STUFF". You can (legally) bring a car into the country without importing it (which is good, since you certainly don't want to go through the paperwork for importing a vehicle every time you drive across a border). You can (legally) bring a firearm into the country without importing it (which is good since not everyone who goes on a hunting trip abroad is actually licensed to import firearms). If I wanted to, I could have my car shipped from Europe to the States and could drive it around there. Would that mean I imported it ? No. Hence, I'm not allowed to sell it to anyone while over there, and have to take it with me when I leave (or have it destroyed). Same goes for guns if I go on a hunting trip.
Do you really think that a visitor is not allowed to bring necessary medications with them ? The people who made these laws aren't _that_ stupid. How's a diabetic visitor supposed to survive an 8-hour flight and several hours of being stuck at the airport without bringing insulin with him ?
Depends: Where were the medication you're referring too purchased?
#1 Medications purchased in the USA under US law carried out of the country and brought back in upon return = Legal. (Personal property) #2 Medications purchased in a foreign country brought into the US = Felony. (Importing)
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How old are you anyway? What you're quoting as proof is a Red herring logical fallacy. It is completely unrelated to the topic. Read the entire paragraph.
I have no idea why you think the way you do, or how you can read your own links and still think that.
There is absolutely no doubt that people are allowed to travel internationally with their own prescriptions. None whatsoever.
People who visit the US are absolutely allowed to do so with their prescription medication. Legally. They may be required to show proof of the prescription, but as long as they can do that. And as long as their prescription is not on the list of medications that are not allowed, no felony is being commited.
There are plenty of resources available for you to research this. You are completely misreading the link you have provided.
The United States, in spite of any recent tightening of certain freedoms has NOT made it a felony for people to travel with their prescription medications. I understand that you are certain that it is indeed a felony for someone to bring their own prescription medication with them when they enter the US, but that is not the case.
It isn't relevant, but I'm 40. I travel extensively and am dealing with aging parents who also travel extensively (both of them have had to investigate this very subject). What about you. Aside from the linked article, which I insist you are misunderstanding, do you have any other reason for holding on to this belief?
-- -- Warning. Do not stare directly at the sun.
...but I'm 40
Quoting Freud, Spooky.
You are, by definition, an enigma. How you beat the Darwinian odds of survival is an exceptional accomplishment. Congratulations. If I'd care to count I think you've used every logical fallacy there is.
You change your focus, combine events and are unable to stay on topic. Using one argument as source to to prove another. Switching back an forth between traveling with medications to purchasing controlled substances in a foreign country and importing them. And the best argument of all: I find it too difficult to believe therefor you must be wrong. I love that one.
I am just not going to try and explain it to you any more. I've linked directly to several CBP sources and you'll quote one sentence out of 50 as your proof. Even though the other 49 are saying "moreover...", "additional restrictions"... You ignore those. When I linked to a dictionary definition of import to help you out you switch your argument to traveling with meds. I've run out of ways to get it across. Besides, you're just not interested in anything that opposes your beliefs. Facts be damned.
Anyway... Have a good life and I wish you and your aged parents well in your travels.
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You change your focus, combine events and are unable to stay on topic. Using one argument as source to to prove another. Switching back an forth between traveling with medications to purchasing controlled substances in a foreign country and importing them.
I have not changed focus or topic during this this conversation. You are indeed allowed to travel between countries, US included, with your prescription medication. This entire thread started when I said that it was perfectly ok to take your prescription medication with you when traveling, and you responded by saying that was an "urban myth". None of this has anything to do with "my beliefs". The facts are that you are allowed to travel with prescription medications.
-- -- Warning. Do not stare directly at the sun.
As an American citizen, I feel like unwarranted search and seizure of my data is un-Constitutional. Doing this to foreign visitors is simply inhospitable, considering our slowing economy needs global tourism and commerce. Last I checked, the Constitution applies to anyone on US soil, and recently, in the case of Gitmo, ruled that our rights extend to foreign soil as well. As an individual, this would piss me off only because I don't like strangers running apps on my computer in the first place. I won't even let the local DSL installer run their garbage CD on my computer. BTW, are the Feds entitled to our login passwords without a subpoena? What if I forget under the duress of border-crossing? I'd like to see them try to copy files from my wife and I's twin Linux ePCs, with Chinese operating systems. Then deny me re-entry because of their computer illiteracy. Better yet, I think I'll remain in exile until my Congress grows a brain.
-- Jimtown Kelly