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Meet the New Chess Boxing Champion of the World
Attila Dimedici writes "A Russian man has just been crowned world champion in the sport of chess boxing. Apparently the idea originated in a French comic strip from the early '90s. In 2003 a Dutch artist decided to bring the 'sport' to life. The 'sport' is played by starting a chess match in the middle of a boxing ring. After four minutes, the chess board is cleared and the opponents box for three minutes. A match consists of six rounds of chess and five rounds of boxing. A match is decided by knockout, checkmate, or points."
and I can't wait to watch it.
Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
Hmmm....
I have come up with a new sport come April
Tax-Sex
You sit in the middle of the Kitchen and agonize over deductions for 10 minutes, then do it doggy style on them thar reciepts.
Never play chicken with a passive aggressive.
Wouldn't this heavily favour brawn over brains? I mean any half decent bruiser could just avoid getting checkmated right away and then knock the nerd out in the first round.
I have seen the future of sports and it says 'I took a lot of body-blows in the fourth round and that affected my concentration. That's why I made a big mistake in the fifth round: I did not see him coming for my king,'
If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
He goes head-to-head against the world champion of Kung-fu Go.
Yeah, we have something like that at my company called codeboxing.
Developers receive documentation and go off to work on something. The moment they run into an ambiguous or poorly defined requirement, they jump into the ring with the person who wrote it for up to 6 rounds of boxing. Between rounds, they refine the language of the requirement. The match is decided by a panel of managers, agreement between the two parties, or knock out.
M
I was rather hoping for a BattleChess like game where the players box it out to decide which piece captures which. This just sounds ... weird.
I'd use the chess board to effect a knockout.
As Ron White puts it, "I'm a glandular player".
MP3 Search Engine
I've red the comic book a few years ago. It's part of a trilogy.
The scenario is quite confusing but the drawing is very good.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Froid_%C3%89quateur
Once I started RTFAing the repeated comments about concentration and ability to shift modes starting getting my attention. Modern pentathalon started out as a way to simulate certain kinds of combat, and, for its time, made quite a bit of sense. I'm willing to bet that we'll see some very serious people start to get into this as a way to hone skills used for activities that aren't cheesy at all. A way to test one's ability to think strategically and tactically while out of breath and in pain is a damn good thing for anybody who is expected to function in combat. Even first responders in non-violent professions might gain from this.
Gotta say, not for me, to say the least, but I'll be very curious to see how this evolves and what kinds of people end up getting into it.
It's all about the information. And what we do with it.
Somehow it still doesn't sound that exciting to me. I have to agree with eennaarbrak, BattleChess sounds fun, I really wouldn't mind seeing a bunch of chess players boxing it out.
http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com
I m a big fan of the trilogy (actually i m a big fan of the author), but it's kind of weird to think that chess-boxing is now real, given that in the book it is mainly used to show the violence of the distopian world.
There is also a hockey game in the first book which ends with something like 3 goals and 5 kills for each team.
BTW : In the book, the chess-boxing match ends with the main protagonist (possessed by a god) killing his opponent with some kind of laser shot from his eyes during a chess round.
I want to see No Holds Barred Halo Boxing. Then I get to beat the crap out of the guy who thinks hes so cool with the sniper rifle.
Let's see you pwn me now!
Seriously though, this is really awesome. I have never really been into boxing or UFC, but if that dude also had to beat the guy at Chess or some other game of skill, then that makes it very very interesting.
Not just brute force.
I can see some little nerd being undefeated in the ring since he could never lose the match within 4 minutes... but going to the hospital the day he does.
A better game would go something like this. Two heavyweight chess players start a match. When one takes the other's pawn by en passant, he jumps up angrily, knocks the chess board, table and all, clear into the audience and then socks that guy right in the jaw. A crazy fight ensues, in which the one who took the pawn gets beaten to a pulp.
"I can't compete with you physically, and you're no match for my brains." Sorry Vizini, brains won't do you any good when you're having your face bashed in.
McCain/Palin '08. Now THAT's hope and change!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_boxing
a sample of the original comics series: http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/archive/freerpgs/heritage/mobworld.htm#Chess%20Boxing
Herve S.
They can't televise it!
The First Rule of Chess Club is You Do Not Talk about Chess Club!
Oh God. In the summary, I read Modem Pentathlon instead of Modern, and pictured jogging with a 3COM 56K Turbo in your hand... I really, really, need to retire from this bloody line of business.
"Cock Up Your Beaver" does not mean what you think. This sig is intended to clog filters and annoy do-gooders
What's with the news.com.au image? It's not a topic image and from the URL it looks like it's hardcoded into this story. Weird.
Whats up with the news.com.au logo next to the article: http://images.slashdot.org/articles/08/07/07/0427228-1-thumb.png?
Is this some new way of cashing in by directing links to websites?
1. Sign advertising agreement with other news website
2. Post article to idle.slashdot.org (?????)
3. Profit!
I don't think it's ridiculous at all. Anyone trained in any martial art (not just eastern, count boxing, fencing, etc. as well) will probably agree.
Keeping your senses and your ability to think during a fight is anything but trivial, and requires a lot of training.
Most regular people would probably have trouble just remembering how the pieces move after a few minutes of fighting, with all the adrenaline pumping and your whole body in "I have no time for thinking" mode.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Yeah, but does this tournament allows ancient Egyptians Gods cheating and helping their favourite participants ?
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
It's stated that there are 6 rounds of chess with 4 minutes per round. That works out to more than 20 minutes of chess, not "1 - 5 minutes to win."
I've played competitive Lightning (5 mins) and Speed (15 mins) chess before. Ample time to win a game in both modes.
Most difficult part here is probably trying to remember your plan after the boxing.
Here you go
And here, at the bottom of the page, you can see an exhibition chessboxing by the FIDE (ie: Federarion Internationale Des Echecs aka: World Chess Federation) president
"Whats up with the news.com.au logo next to the article"
It would appear that Slashdot is just copying FARK.com.
As soon as I read this, it reminded me of that episode of sliders where there was a sport that combined physical and mental aspects at the same time.
Mindgame was a team sport and seemed more interesting, but the concept is similar.
http://www.fide.com/component/content/article/2-articles/1327-fide-videos
Video named "Kirsan Ilyumzhinov As A Chess Boxer!" (bottom left)
Damn! I have some but already posted on this thread.
I suddenly see a new way to conduct contract negotiations in pro sports.
Don't just watch the sport, watch the agents and owners duke it out over who gets paid what. Who wouldn't want to see those thin-wristed weasels who pad their wallets by blackmailing the fans beat the crap out of each other?
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
The funny thing about this sports is that a champion is bound to loose its title quickly, the more the champion boxe, the worst he must be getting at chess. Since after a year or two having your face punched turn your brain into molasses...
C'mon, this is the new academical research technique for Parkinson's Diseases' effects on cognitive abilities...
There's also the movie Immortel (ad vitam), also written and directed by Bilal himself, roughly based on the same story as the Nikopol trilogy.
And Benoit Sokal's Whit Birds Productions have a point'n'click adventure game called Nikopol, based on this series in their pipeline.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Sort of. 20 some odd years ago my room mate considered combining rugby and chess and called it "full contact chess".
We played beer chess instead. Somebody had a 4'x4' chess board. Pawns were Mickey's, rooks were Fosters, queens were a bottle of wine etc. Every time a chess piece was taken you had to drink it. We rarely lost; against the beer drinker types we just out played them, against the chess player types we'd trade down pieces early and out drink them.
Simpler times ...
Belthize
That's all very nice, but how does this involve Marlon Brando in some DJ gig?
is a chess-playing shark!
"Kill 'em all and let Root sort 'em out"
Looking at the pentathlon, it seems interesting, but kind of a downer that they put shooting, and fencing as the first two events. I am of course assuming that they listed the events in the order in which they are usually done. It would be much more challenging to try and steady a gun after running and biking, than at the beginning of the competition. Which is why I find the biathlon kind of interesting. I have enough trouble aiming a gun that accurately (although I've only ever shot pellet guns, which are notorious for bad aim). I can't imagine having good aim after cross country skiing for any length of time.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
Forget all that shit. Once the ice age comes, you're not going to need anything but the biathlon. Ski and shoot!
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
How about this:
Similar to Chess Kombat in Mortal Kombat Deception, where you have a (pretty) normal chess game, but whenever you capture a piece, you either both fight, or the guy who is capturing punches the n00b in the face. Think about it, you would hesitate sacrificing that pawn if you knew you could only take a few more punches.
If not, how about whenever someone caps a piece, the two guys fight for X seconds, like MK Deception, the attacker gets some sort of bonus, an extra shot in....possibly use of a fist filler etc.
Just my pre-wake n' bake thoughts of the day, trust me, it all goes downhill from here.
Orbis terrarum est non altus satis
Isn't this just the geek version of biathlon (with less snow and more pummeling, of course)?
I could see Josh Waitzkin doing well at this.
It's not as hard as you would think. You can't hold a rifle pointed at a target anyways, no one can. You hold it so it traces a predictable pattern that intersects your target, then time your squeeze so everything comes together. Personally, my muscles tend to move my sight in a squashed figure 8 pattern. When you're tired and out of breath, the pattern will get larger, but it will remain the same shape, and be just as predictable.
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
one field where humans have the advantage!
When will the wii version come out?
Boxing is not a martial art. Neither is fencing. And neither is Tae Kwon Do. In order to be a martial art, it is supposed to have a practical purpose in warfare or self-defense. Neither boxing nor fencing have any practical purpose for self-defense since the dumbest thing you can do in a fight is throw a punch and you're not likely to be in combat with a 4' metal toothpick. Learning how to properly fire a can of pepper spray is more of a martial art than boxing.
Here is a list of sports along with a corresponding martial art:
Sport: Fencing
Martial Art: Close Quarter Combat Knife Defense
Sport: Tae Kwon Do
Martial Art: Karate
etc..
In Soviet Russia Ivan Drago Kasparov will checkmate you...and "if you die, you die!"
What is best in life? To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you and to hear the lamentations of their women.
Meet the New Chess Boxing Champion of the World
No!
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
Typical half-assed summary. No, they do not clear the board before boxing. They remove it from the ring, and after boxing, pick up the game where they left off. Seriously, is English your native language???
I don't think it's ridiculous at all. Anyone trained in any martial art (not just eastern, count boxing, fencing, etc. as well) will probably agree.
Keeping your senses and your ability to think during a fight is anything but trivial, and requires a lot of training.
Most regular people would probably have trouble just remembering how the pieces move after a few minutes of fighting, with all the adrenaline pumping and your whole body in "I have no time for thinking" mode.
Perhaps ironically for a geek, I don't know what it's like to be good at chess, but I do know what it's like to be good at fighting.
A lot of intelligent people aren't good at fighting because they overanalyze a fight. It's helpful to watch other people fight and analyze, but in a fight you have to be in the moment. I knew an architect who was very physically powerful, but never able to fight well because he tried to think strategically during a fight. He was always thinking, if I do this, then he'll do that, then I'll do this etc. A cunning fighter is one who reacts in the moment, in a way that is both appropriate and unpredictable.
"Thinking" in a fight -- if it can be called that -- is not sequential, nor is it analytical. It's more wholistic and intuitive. Even a swift reasoner cannot project future scenarios fast enough to keep up with the present, and being in the moment is critical. The reason the average person can't remember the details of a fight is that he isn't paying attention. He's thinking about the past ("that punch hurt") or the future ("I'm going to get murdered.") An experienced fighter is aware of every detail without being stuck on any one.
Although I can't say from experience, I wonder if this means being good at chess isn't a little like being good at sparring. My faults as a chess player are like the faults of my architect friend as a fighter; although I have formidable analytical skills, they aren't a match for somebody who moves with the swift assurance of being familiar with the scenario. I spend too much time dealing with the shambles of my "strategy" to take advantage of the opportunities my opponent's moves create.
As far as silliness is concerned, all sports are silly if you look at them the right way. Chess and barehand fighting are individual sports pared down to the minimally interesting essentials: two individuals striving to gain advantage over each other. Perhaps arm wresting is more basic, but not sufficiently complex to invite tactical analysis.
In any case, Chess Boxing is clearly a sport tailor made for Russia.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
I am bemused that you listed 'karate' as a martial art.
To be fair, if Tae Kwon Do (which actually significantly de-emphasizes punching) is not a martial art, than neither is Karate- what you want is something like Krav Maga.
That is not to say, however, that defensive arts that deal mostly with the sword (although I'll argue that fencing is, as you pointed out, mostly a sport) do not have their place. There are plenty of useful things you can do when you know how to effectively wield a sword in combat.
"It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." -Peak Performance
You just talked about it, therefore you're out.
I'm intrigued as to where you get this idea that throwing a punch is a bad idea in a fight and would strongly contest that boxing has no value in self-defence.
I study a style of Chinese internal martial arts, and punches are used all the time, usually in combination with locks, holds, kicks and whatever else springs to mind.
I do agree with your specification of what constitutes a martial art, but can't see where you're coming from with regard to the efficacy of boxing unless you live somewhere where everyone walks around armed.
A recent study (blowed if I an find a link) seems to support your view; highly skilled chess players apparently don't think any further ahead than average players, but do know what constitutes a strong position and will take steps to move towards one in much the same way that a skilled fighter will manoeuvre himself into a position of strength over his opponent.
I have a Daisy 50th Anniversary Pellet Rifle. It has a rifled barrel, and is very accurate at a range suitable for a gun of this type. It is not that difficult to hit a dime at 25 yards with this gun. It is actually surprising how fast BB/pellet come out of the barrel with a simple air pump.
I only look human.
My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
You could be the dumbest poster I've ever seen.
Spoken like someone who has never actually been trained to fight. Just so I'm clear, learning how to position oneself, move around your opponent, and use reach and speed considerations to determine the correct time to strike for maximum effect is not "practical... in warfare or self-defense."? Is that correct?
Because THAT is what boxing is, your portrayal of it as just "throwing a punch" is ignorant, and makes it clear why your post is so ridiculous, you simply have no idea what you're talking about.
Here is a list of posters who should be ignored when discussing this subject
neuromancer23 (1122449)
Not only are you ruining the nerd's favorite stereotype, you're torpedoing their excuse for being scrawny nothings.
They can't televise it!
The First Rule of Chess Club is You Do Not Talk about Chess Club!
Oddly enough, The First Rule of Date Club is also You Do Not Talk About Chess Club.
Wu-Tang were pioneers in this sport, and have long been the masters of chess boxing.
Twinstiq, game news
Exactly right. Every time some ignorant fool pipes up claiming it is just brute force, I insist they watch the Sakuraba/Newton fight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVpp7PtWexk
Incredibly tactical fight with only a handful of strikes, and definitely not "just brute force".
Trying to time your squeeze is part of the problem. It is the wrong approach and certainly not the one taught in the military or police forces.
Aim, breathe steady, keep aiming, exhale while aiming, gently squeeze the trigger. The exact moment of the loud bang should be a surprise.
FTA...
"I took a lot of body-blows in the fourth round and that affected my concentration. That's why I made a big mistake in the fifth round: I did not see him coming for my king"
Looks like the body-blows did, in fact, affect his concentration. He forgot what game he was playing!
That's just plain ridiculous to think that a punch or a kick cannot be used to defend yourself.
A punch, kick, eye gab, or even a sword has a practical defensive application given the right circumstances.
At least a boxer isn't shit out of luck if he leaves his pepper spray at home by accident.
Finally an even playing field for man
I recall reading about the Deep Blue matches and seeing a very different view on this. In the first set of matches, Deep Blue won the first game, and the rest were draws or losses. It was claimed that Kasparov used this first game to learn how the computer worked, and he subsequently was able to beat it by using extremely long-range thinking. Deep Blue would see at most a dozen moves ahead during the normal part of the game, and so Kasparov was able to maneuver it into losing by seeing much farther into the future.
Of course this ability to see farther into the future is very much tied into knowing strong positions and so forth. A human can't work like a computer does and evaluate every possible branch. Instead the human knows that there are one or two reasonable moves at each branching point and throws the rest away.
I could just be blowing smoke here, of course, this is all going by memory.
If you mod me Overrated, you are admitting that you have no penis.
That is best, but you don't always have the leisure to pick your shots from a position of rest. When you're doing sprint drills across a field with an assault rifle in your hands and you have no chance to catch your breath before taking your shot and continuing to sprint, you need alternative techniques that will accommodate the physical condition you're in.
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
Well, strikes can be effective in a fight against an novice opponent, but the situation in a boxing ring is nothing like a real life fight. Furthermore, real life fights are almost always over within a few seconds, always end up on the ground, and frequently occur against multiple opponents. How is boxing training going to help you avoid being the victim of ground & pound? Against an experienced opponent throwing a punch is just going to give them an opportunity to break your arm. If I had to bet on fight between someone with 6 months of training at a Gracie school and someone with a black-belt in kung fu who had been studying for 20 years, I'd choose the Gracie kid every time.
Let the Wookie win.
i'm amazed that i survived - an airbag saved my life.
Either that, or find a very small, very agile uber chess geek.
One way or another, I'm going to be the Freddie Roach of this damn sport.
'a';DROP TABLE users; SELECT * FROM DATA WHERE name LIKE '%'... if you're reading this, it didn't work.
You get the knife, I get the épée I fenced with in college. I'll be glad to take you on.
Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
It would cut down on "low blows"-- Anyone who's heard "One Night in Bangkok" knows that chess players get their kicks above the waistline, sunshine.
>although I've only ever shot pellet guns, which are notorious for bad aim
Are you nuts or just use walmart pellet guns?
There are Olympic Air rifle competition. I bet walmart powder burners cannot keep up with those in accuracy.
http://www.pyramydair.com/cgi-bin/show.pl?cmd_category=show&category_id=31
Make sure you scroll until you start seem 1000+ priced guns.
http://blag.xkcd.com/2008/05/19/friday-night/
The 'all fights end up on the ground' argument surfaces time and time again, and I have yet to see any evidence that it's true. If you're a regular brawler in real life, I bow to your experience (but wouldn't want to go a'drinkin' with you).
For self-defence purposes, I'm not looking to cream multiple attackers and laugh over their broken bodies. I'm looking to take down one of them, very quickly, and use the gap to escape. Boxing would seem to offer the tools to do that (in case you hadn't gathered, I'm not a boxer).
Combat sport training may not be the best way to defend yourself in life, but to argue that it has no value in self defence is absurd.
He should be able to understand his deficit after the fact and then train to overcome it.
Anyways, I've been chess-boxing on occasion for about two years now. I think it makes the switch to fight mode and back easier and more natural. When I would box before, I would have to gear myself into an aggressive mindset, but now it's easier to keep my head and deliver power in a fight. Calming down afterwards was never much of a problem, but even that got easier, also.
Fnord.
I have 2 years of training at a Rickson Gracie academy, and I guarantee you punching is something you do in a fight. I'm also an amateur cage fighter, where they let you do so many things that they explain the rules entirely in the things you are not allowed to do. Punching works. It's part of a toolset. A great Jitz guy without any wrestling is gonna get destroyed by a man who can sprawl and box.
Think Rani Yahya vs. Kid Yamamoto, or for more proof go back and watch Jeremy Horn's second fight with Chuck Liddell. You need the whole game against good fighters, and punching power and size will win the fight just about every time against someone with poor wrestling.
My fellow Americans, let's restore the death penalty for child rapists. Let's do it . . . for the children.
to make that sport more interesting.
-----
Jewish Dilemma: Free Pork
"Suppose you were an idiot...and suppose you were a member of Congress...but I repeat myself." Mark Twain
I think we're thinking of different studies. I found the link to mine (an interesting read, but hardly scientific gospel): http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=the-expert-mind
It seems I remembered a select portion of the article; it describes a study which used chess as a study to find how expertise in a field in dependent upon training. By repeated exposure to situations and, sometimes, a knowledge of background theory, more information is available from the same data because more detailed extrapolation is possible.
Similarly, by training in a fighting art/sport, more opportunities present themselves when faced with an opponent than those obvious to a beginner. The mental process in each case appears similar to me; a rapid and correct (or at least useful) analysis of the situation results from the ability gained in practise. The main difference in sparring is that a substantial portion of time has to be spent making the body capable of reliably doing what you're asking it to do.
For reference, both my sparring and my chess are mediocre.
It Must be hard to move those Chess pieces with boxing gloves on.
Simultaneous exhibitions will be painfull in this game. Specially the blindfolded ones
Ok. Match to be fought at an unknown time on an unknown date in an unknown location. Don't be late, and for heaven's sake don't forget your épée...
Yeah. Defintely Walmart guns.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
I never considered boxing and chess as a reasonable combination. But I would pay to watch figure skating if they put all the competitors on the ice at the same time and allowed body checking.
If they don't take out the chainsaws by round 3, I'm asking for my money back
No sig for the moment.
Admit it... you just want to get your hands on Anna Kournikova.
Yeah, your epee or my sword cane I keep at home in case anyone bad shows up. That thing is lethal, but unlikely to kill by accident, like a gun. Surprise plays a factor as well.
-A
How about a nice game of Global Thermonuclear Chess?
Meh, I thought it would have something to do with The Mystery of Chess Boxing (which is also the inspiration for a lot of Wu-Tang Clan material).
The three main types of fencing are:
- foil, scores with tip on torso of opponent only
- épée, heavier, scores with tip anywhere on opponent
- sabre, scores with edge or tip anywhere on opponent
Normally you wear protective gear and the tips and edges are not sharp. Judging at matches is electronic because hits are too fast to see. There have been accidents where people have been killed by the jagged end of a broken sword through a canvas jacket or wire mask. An opponent armed with a knife would never get close enough to do any damage.
U.P. Freely's épée is the deadliest!!
If Fencing is not a martial art, you've been doing it wrong (FAQ #2).
Feel the fear and do it anyway.
Well I was once competing pretty seriously in martial artist and chess tournaments (During the same several years oddly enough) I think there is more commonality to the approach than you would expect. (Ignoring the fact that I would have loved to lay the smack down on a few of my more obnoxious chess opponents)
In both chess and martial arts you memorize a large number of moves and counters and execute the basic opening with no need for thought. My favorite chess opening I had anywhere from the first 12 to 24 moves already prepared and requiring no time or thought on my behalf. If an opponent used a very unusual counter my routine could be derailed but my competitor would be in a disadvantageous position as most counters I hadn't studied in chess had significant disadvantages to them.
Now martial arts is different in that the sheer volume of possible moves is larger and there is a HUGE advantage to having a move or counter that the opponent has never seen before. But in a tightly regulated matches like fencing or Olympic Tae Kwon Do the number of legal moves are limited and top competitor have seen most techniques before. In these settings participants are planning half a dozen moves deep and doing the basic attacks and counters on autopilot.
I know some serious fencers and I have fought against them in informal settings. One comment that stuck with me was one friend told me he felt I planned 2-3 moves in advance. (This is a VERY serious fencer, trains swordsmen, does NERO, almost qualified for olympics) He said he is usually thinking closer to 6 moves deep so he can always force me into the position he wants except when I managed something unexpected (usually some marital arts trick that I could never do in regulation fencing) and honestly I only manage that a few times before running out of tricks he has not seen before. (He now beats me pretty consistently)
I do agree that you don't want to be thinking out new moves or counters DURING combat, but you any your opponent have mostly the same library of moves you do think deeply during combat, it is just that while you are doing feint, parry, riposte on autopilot your brain is thinking about "ok the next time he extends like that I step in close and trap his arm, etc.
Execution is really different but the basic idea of move vs counter while watching for weaknesses is common to most tournament sports.
I believe the study you are referencing is actually discussing a different phenomenon. (I.e. The fact that some chess grandmasters can play many simultaneous matches based on glancing at the board as they walk playing many different opponents.
Basically they learn to rapidly recognize opportunities that average chess players might miss. However if you put a couple good players in the crowd you easily beat the grandmaster by forcing them into a early bizarre gambit and playing off of them being distracted. (I have beaten a grandmaster this way, and he would have totally trashed me in a fair match)
I used to play tournament chess and I won off my ability to plan farther in the future than my opponents. I would say that most chess masters do this too.
Quick snap judgments are a side benefit of having played thousands of hours of chess. (Main downside being that you had to spend thousands of hours playing chess when you could have instead have been getting laid, a situation very simular to becoming an expert in computers I would think.)
An expert can recognize and discard more situations than a novice, which helps the expert think farther into the future since they are not wasting time on less viable moves, but I can state that an expert DEFINITELY thinks more steps forward than an average player. Now if you change average player to average grandmaster and expert to be top grandmaster then yes, I would agree that most grandmasters may think roughly the same distance into the future. But no way does the average player get close to a grandmaster on moves ahead.
It is like saying the average coder can think of as much code as an expert coder, an expert coder can almost think out an entire architecture, an average coder is lucky to finish a method. Hell, most interviewees I see can't compile a class in their head and tell me all the compile errors in a class. They catch the first few issues but they don't get the more complex issues that an expert woudl catch. Same is true in chess.
wow . . . if this counts as a sport, then anything goes . . . come to think of it, this sorta reminds me of Basketball (kinda bad movie from the 90s) . . .
After seeing a photo of that guy, I hereby resign from the sport of chessboxing.
I wouldn't be so sure about boxing being good for self defense, the technique is excellent for what it does, and most attackers by far aren't going to be able to take advantage of the weaknesses. But if all your punches are normally thrown with heavy padding, I'd worry about punch strength growing faster than bone strength.
I'm not very familiar with the training though, so maybe that problem takes care of itself.
Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite (TM)
"Although I can't say from experience, I wonder if this means being good at chess isn't a little like being good at sparring."
I think you're absolutely correct about fighting, but in my experience, chess is the complete opposite. If you DON'T think ahead and over analyze your moves in chess, you're invariably going to lose. That's been my experience at least. I'm not "good" at thinking ahead strategically so I tend to lose most of the time. On the other hand, during fights, and other "emergencies" I tend to be able to float through with "situational awareness" alone.
As a side note, I wonder if the Wu-Tang Clan were involved with this in any way ;)
The game of chess, is like a swordfight. You must think, before you move!
This is totally ridiculous. Let's all watch crappy chess AND crappy boxing.. that'll appeal to absolutely no one!
"I'm intrigued as to where you get this idea that throwing a punch is a bad idea in a fight and would strongly contest that boxing has no value in self-defence."
I don't think the problem is about the punch but about the implicit fact that I'll be punched but my opponent won't dare to kick my low parts so I don't need to take care of them thus making boxing too "artificial".
On the other hand, I can't accept his definition for "martial art"; he was defining "self-defense" quite related but still not quite the same. Not that I have a clear all-encompassing definition for "martial art" (if I define it by its intention, fencing is a martial art, but judo is not; if by its rules, nothing but vale-tudo and related would be martial arts; if by its current application, it would be only instinct shooting, etc.) but I have a clear "sense" where tae-kown-do is a sport as it is boxing while karate or judo or fencing (or even iai-do) are martial arts.
"A recent study (blowed if I an find a link) seems to support your view; highly skilled chess players apparently don't think any further ahead than average players"
There was a Grand Master (while I can't recall it) that asked how many positions he looked forward answered: "just one: the best".
Da art of chessboxin
Most regular people would probably have trouble just remembering how the pieces move after a few minutes of fighting, with all the adrenaline pumping and your whole body in "I have no time for thinking" mode.
Ahh the true zen of chess. I think combining tasers and algebra would be a better measure of neural fitness.
I prefer this chessboxing video
You're thinking "self defense", and that is not equal to "martial art". Nevertheless, one can be useful for the other. I know a lot of martial artists who - I'm sure - would take a beating in a street fight. I also know quite a few who'd sent any punk to the floor before he knows what hit him.
Even without his "toothpick", for example, I wouldn't want to fight a fencer if it isn't necessary. Why? Because he is trained in speed and accuracy. He probably hasn't learnt how to take a good hit, or strike hard, but I'd still rather fight a regular guy.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
But punch strength doesn't determine most fights. A lot of fights are over before the first punch is thrown. And boxers learn one vitally important thing: To take a hit and go on.
I (remotely) know a guy who used to do professional boxing. He's in his 40s now. Some time recently a gang of early 20s made some rude comments about his wife on the street. He was in the middle of them and had the "lead" guy by the shirt before they were quite done. He had no fear and made it clear that if they wanted a fight, single or all at once, they could have it, right there and then. They backed off.
And that's something you learn in all fighting, whether it's sports, martial arts or self defense: To control your fear. And fear decides more fights than punches do.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
After playing chess for many years I'm sure you can recognize patterns well into the future. There're only so many moves to make!
I agree that it's ridiculous to assume that you won't be attacked outside boxing rules, but that's not the point in issue. When involved in a scuffle, it's better to know how to throw a punch than not.
The question of what constitutes a martial art rages all the time; my definition is simply a reasonably complete fighting system designed for non-sport use. It's not really something I spend a lot of time worrying about, to be honest.
"I'm not very familiar with the training though, so maybe that problem takes care of itself."
I'm glad you posted that caveat, it was clear from your post but that you understand you aren't aware of the training regimen makes it ok that you don't know.
That said, your concern is legitimate. You will break your hand if you hit someone full force even with year of training, but honestly, that's true of most adults. Of course, I'll take a broken hand every single time if it means I've incapacitated the other guy, which it usually does if you know what you're doing.
You're a Gracie nut-hugger.
Well, Mr. Nut-hugger, please explain what Mr. Gracie is doing while Mr. Fedor is raining punches on his head?
I'll answer that for you, losing. Your portrayal of BJJ as some magical cure all in a fight demonstrates quite clearly that you have no idea what the fuck your running your mouth about.
If I had to bet on your fictional choices, I'd bet on the guy who is willing to take a chunk of meant out of Mr. Gracies arm every time he tries a choke, or take a bite out of his ribs, or is willing to stick his finger in an eye until he finds the brain.
BJJ is just a tool (like you only different), sometimes it's right for the job and sometimes it isn't.
Nor is the situation in a UFC style submission fight anything like a real life fight. Going to the ground is generally a very bad strategy in an actual self-defense situation: one's objective if attacked is to disable or distract the attacker with strikes, joint attacks, and/or standing takedowns, and run like hell. You do not want to roll around on the ground while his buddies show up.
Twenty years ago, people like you were telling us how ninjitsu was the undefeatable art; before that, kung fu; before that, karate; before that, judo...
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
This is a problem - many boxers have tremendous power but no idea how to make a fist and shatter their hand when they hit someone without a glove. Happened to Tyson.
It's not so much a matter of bone strength as of technique, and of strength of the intrinsic muscles of the hand. A traditional karate maxim says that it takes three years to learn how to make a fist, three years to learn how to stand, and three more years to put it together and punch.
In the meantime, when I teach self-defense classes I teach striking with the heel of the palm (a favorite of whoever choreographed the fights in ST:TNG and DS9, by the way), the elbow, and the hammerfist.
I can punch through three 1-inch boards (one on top of the other, not spaced); this is a decent but not exceptional punch. I've seen people break piles of concrete pavers (cinder block caps) with a punch.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
...my wife is friends with one. And she's roomates with two others that are just as hot. Spent the 4th of July over at their place last weekend. Good times.
Chess and barehand fighting are individual sports pared down to the minimally interesting essentials.
I dare say many Go players would disagree. And you should try Hex sometime.
xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
A gun is also extremely unlikely to kill by accident. A few hundred people - 600 in 2000 die in gun accidents each year (and many of these are actually suicides that are covered up out of respect for grieving families); in that same year, 3,900 people drowned, 3,600 were killed by fire, 3,400 choked to death, and a whopping 16,200 died in falls. Your staircase or your swimming pool are much more likely to kill you accidentally than your gun.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
What does eating little dried fruits have to do with Chess?
I'd be willing to bet that a professional boxer could last one round of chess, but could his opponent be able to last one round with a professional boxer?
Spelling and Grammar errors have been added to this post for your enjoyment
In my experience, I would say that a disproportionate percentage of the people I've known who played chess avidly were bright guys from less educated backgrounds who simply weren't aware of as wide a range of intellectually stimulating activities as the average person I've known with their level of smarts. This has led them *both* to the military *and* chess. In my experience the two are positively correlated, especially in the people I met through working in corporate IT. The same tendency to turn to authority for answers has given them a motivation to take both of them on.
Chess is something that every kid in America has not only heard of but has been told is "one of those things that smart people do". And it's competitive as hell, has clear, unambiguous rules, and an equally clear, unambiguous winner at the end. It appeals to somebody who wants to do things where you work hard, focus, do what you've been trained to do, and WIN. Just like what they've been told military service is like. Not only that, it's cheap to learn and do and is replete with rituals that appeal to those seeking that sort of identity of clearly measurable "excellence".
Of course, there are also the artifacts based on things like, say, being from Russia. But those are fading over time.
So, no, I counter your snark and raise you demographics. May the best player win.
It's all about the information. And what we do with it.
While it's true that punching a person in the head can be risky because you might damage your hands (the more training you have, the less likely this becomes), it doesn't mean that punching someone is "the dumbest thing you can do in a fight." Punching is undoubtedly the most common thing people do in fights. You're also forgetting that boxing doesn't just teach you how to hit someone, it also teaches you how to defend yourself against hits. Boxing is one of the most effective and practical martial arts in existence.
You apparently aren't aware of this, but swords used to be in common use all over the world. Crazy, I know.
What is this based on? Karate is practised as a sport too. Kyokushin is perhaps the most effective and practical form of karate in existence, and - suprise suprise - it's practised as a sport. In fact, the most effective martial arts tend to be sports martial arts (boxing, wrestling, Judo, BJJ, Muay Thai etc.).
Funnily enough, I feel that I am more likely to hurt my wrists when I'm using gloves. I should probably get into the habit of using wraps, but I've never found any use for gloves when hitting a bag.
The hammerfist is a very neglected technique.
Why "reasonably complete," and why non-sport use? The most effective systems are sports martial arts. BJJ is both non-complete and a sport martial art, yet it's also one of the most effective systems in the world.
Boxing is far closer to real life than pretty much any non-contact martial art with compliant "and then you do this and I do that and now you fall down" drills. Boxing is limited in scope, but not unrealistic. It teaches you speed, timing, distance, footwork, technique, stamina and resilience.
Except... not. Many fights last a lot longer than a few seconds because neither person has the ability and/or resolve to end it in a few seconds. The notion that fights always end on the ground is not only absurd but contradictory: if fights are over in a few seconds, at what point do the participants have time to wrestle on the ground?
How is BJJ going to help you avoid a punch to the face? Oh snap. I guess that's why we've invented cross-training. Furthermore, a boxer is less likely to end up being ground-pounded since the attacker would first have to get within range without being hit, which is made difficult by the boxer's attacks and his movement abilities. If he does end up ground-pounded, then he's far better equipped to deal with it than an untrained individual.
You watch too many kung fu movies. In real life catching the punch of a boxer or other well-trained striker is pretty unlikely.
BJJ's effectiveness has been proven again and again without any doubt (and the same goes for Judo).
What's incomplete about it? I understand that it covers techniques over all ranges even if most of them are to render the situation more favourable to groundwork. It's also originally derived from jujutsu, which was (probably) developed by the samurai for use in battle.
Feel free to shred this argument; as I said, it's not something I've given a great deal of thought.
It's not complete because it only covers grappling on the ground. BJJ was derived from Judo which in turn was derived from Jujutsu.
Not only that, ultimate fighting was started by the Gracie family for the purpose of proving the effectiveness of BJJ. Before that, MMA as people know it today did not even exist.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlYD-j9GSvo
But people can think and say whatever they want. People on slashdot are so full of shit, I don't even know where to start. But then again, that's what makes them Americans. Everyone has an opinion, but nobody knows what the fuck they are talking about.
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