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HP Shatters Excessive Packaging World Record
An anonymous reader writes "HP customers will be familiar with their bizarre packaging practices (5 pounds of packaging for 8 license keys!); lets just say this story is not an isolated incident ... " I've seen some excessive packaging, but perhaps nothing to top this.
I've seen something crazy, but not that crazy. That's just ... crazy.
And I thought the MSDN CDs ya get posted were bad.
They come in a box about the size of an Eee PC (but taller), and contain just a CD in a sleeve cover.
Cost of shipping 150$?
We received a crate a while back from Agilent with a chassis and desk for an 8510 that had not been rack mounted as it was being re-tasked. The lower part of the crate had a fold out ramp that allowed the wheeled chassis to roll right down onto the floor of the lab. Pretty fancy for an empty rack. The tradition continues long after splitting away from the parent company.
bob@Osprey:~>
Sounds about typical for HP. Back many years ago when I was primarily an HP-UX SA, excessive packaging was the norm as well.
"I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend unto the death your right to say it." -- Voltaire
Often times when you ask the shipping department to take care of a package containing hardware, let's say in a 12 x 12 x 4 cube, they are nice enough to protect by putting it in a box with extra padding. Sometimes, when you note it's out of IT and don't notice it's already reboxed, they'll do it again.
This is not that unusual. Clearly they ship out their licenses in a box. I'd just use an envelope like those free ones from the shipping companies. But why ask why, put it in a box. Got many boxes? Put the boxes in a box.
Why not be thoughtful and put 32 pages in one box? This presumes the shipping department knows what's in the box, and even they know, why would they want to deal with all these extra boxes when they can ship them off to the customer.
There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.
My experience with HP have been increasingly disappointing. Recently I contemplated the purchase of an HP network printer / scanner. Most network printers with an integrated scanner implement the scanner as a host-based scanner over USB. The HP unit I found seemed to be the exception. Until I read the data sheet more closely. The network scanner degrades resolution to 200dpi. For full resolution scanning, dust off your host-based USB interface. What I found annoying about this is that the brochure blithely advertised "network scanning" as fully supported.
I have a colleague who swears by HP at the enterprise level, but at this point, I wouldn't buy a consumer level appliance unless I had first exhausted the alternatives.
(Posting anonymously for obvious reasons)
When working for a spin-off of HP, we did a licence audit and decided we needed 500 or so C++ compiler licences for compliance. Order them. Expect a single A4 sheet back saying we're covered.
Instead, we get a pair of huge 2m x 2m x 2m boxes, on shipping palets, containing 500 smaller A4-sized cardboard boxes, each containing an A4 paper licence. This was soul-destroying fail of the highest level and led me down the path to BOFH-dom.
This excessive packaging of license keys goes back to the days of Digital Equipment Corp. It's not the "HP Way," but for some reason it persists.
Recycling cardboard is often worse for the environment than not recycling. Landfills sequester carbon and recycling uses harsh chemicals AND WILL SOMEONE PLEASE FIX THIS DAMN COMMENT WINDOW BUG!?
This story was on the consumerist DAYS ago. Slashdot used to be the first place i'd see stories... must be a slow night
There Can Be Only One...
Remind me to never request a printed manual from HP. Every page would be in a different box.
Now that is _truly_ dirty paging. Yikes!
Ever tried ordering a 100-page printer manual from HP? I ran out of space in my lawn after the third trailer truck arrived...
Futurama Madhouse
If the hardware worked, the drivers were ridiculous.
I have been to error code hell. I have breathed the toner.
This company stole years off my life and I WANT THEM BACK!
.
I repeat: 1 roll of scotch tape in an huge box full of peanuts. Shipping was free.
P.S. I have have the receipt but not a picture of the box as it was in 2006.
I would hope you'd remember to change the policy after doing that.
I recently ordered a pair of servers from Sun. The power cords and the addon nic each came in seperate boxes in a 2'x2'x1' box for each server. At least the outer box wasn't filled with peanuts.
I feel like being forced to download HP's 600MB installer just to get one printer driver is the software equivalent of this packaging phenomenon.
HP : Hewlett Packard, Heaped Packaging, Heavy Paper, Hopeless Paperweight, Highly Priced...
Do it yourself, because no one else will do it yourself. [beta blockade 10-17 Feb]
Tell them you already got your license entitlements via BitTorrent.
Game... blouses.
Tends to make me wonder if it went something like this:
They have a piece of software which handles all their licensing. They add a new license and this software prints out a certificate and the intern boxes it up and sends it to the shipping department. The shipping department goes, hey these are all going to the same place. Boxes them up and ships them all out together.
...wins the wasteful packaging contest IMHO. My Leopard CD and trackpad protecting sticker arrived in a box that was filled with brown paper and was large enough to fit two LCD monitors.
Several years earlier, I ordered a Firewire-to-USB connnector for my old iPod and it arrived in a box that was 5x bigger than the package AND was literally packed with nothing but air...in the form of plastic air-filled balloons.
I'm surprised they don't ship their MacBook Air in a depleted uranium case in order to maintain structural integrity.
Weird, I use email to ship keys. Its faster and *much* cheaper.
Happens with a lot of companies I have known. One company ordered around 40 new PCs' from IBM. The PC's arrived from IBM in a pair of 2m x 2m x 2m cube boxes on the inside of the container. The driver asked if our IT department happened to have a forklift truck available as it would save time unloading.
Well, we didn't, so we had to cut open the boxes and make a little door so we could get in - they had been filled to the brim with styrofoam peanuts and promptly flooded the back of the container before spilling onto the parking lot.
Then, one by one we got the monitors and main units out - all two hundred of them. By the time we were finished, there were enough styrofoam peanuts on the ground to visualize the airflow around the building. They would form streamlines and vortices all around the parking lot. It was our job to chase after every single one for recycling.
Now, mail-order companies seem to enjoy putting the smallest items in the largest boxes. Once ordered some new memory cards and hard disk drives. Each order arrived in a large desktop PC sized box filled with large plastic air-bubbles (empty sealed plastic bags filled with nothing but air), styrofoam peanuts or foam padding. In each case, the padding took up about 20 times as much space as the original item.
Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
Yeah, recycling is terrible for the environment. Those harsh chemicals used for recycling are so much worse than the harsh chemicals used to manufacture cardboard in the first place. Not to mention the trees you get to cut down by making new cardboard. If you recycle, those trees will still be in the way somewhere.
This is +1 interesting? Really?
Spooooon!!!!!
At first I thought this was just a prank pulled by someone who didn't like HP, but after reading the comments I seem to have to believe it's true. It makes you see this in a whole new light.
-- Cheers!
The shipping department at HP probably get monitored on how many cubic ft of parcels they handle, with a bonus for the supervisors if they ship more than 300cuft of parcels per day.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
My...that's a big package.
By venturing more than 3 feet into the depths of this 'box' you agree that any encounters that may result between the entrant and any:
I - trolls
II - goblins or
III - beings of origins
a - Extraterrestrial
b - Indeterminate
c - Unknown
are the sole responsibility of the recipient.
Furthermore, you agree that any objects discovered therein, including but not limited to:
I - treasure,
II - artifact,
III - relics of historical significance, or
IV - the shipped product
are to remain the property of HP, inc. in perpetuity and are to be returned with 28 calendar days, with attachment of a check for the full value of any life insurance policies, savings, properties or outstanding paychecks of any of the intended package recipients who may have perished within.
Look at the packaging for a few screws!
EagerEyes.org: Visualization and Visual Communication
Oh, just smile for once, damnit. Is that so much to ask?
When I worked for the digital/Compaq/Hp company - I canvassed them to move to more eco-friendly packaging (like recycled boxes as filler instead of styrofoam) sadly, it seems, they just started to use more boxes.
Kind of crazy, especially when you consider what recycling cardboard does to the environment. We usually turn it into solar cookers for our friends, but then, we're way more nerdy than most people about the environment. This from a traditionally environmentally friendly HP, (or at least that's what they're going for now...) A little surprising to see. ANyone have any good suggestions for what we should do when companies overpack to this extreme? Jonathan http://www.greenjoyment.com/
Someone named John Robson commented on the story linked by the Slashdot story. He said, "HP should be penalised for that."
No need to worry, John. HP is in a Slashdot story. There will be very capable people, I think, who say to themselves, "Maybe I should apply for a job at HP. Nah, maybe not."
The parent comment says, "My experience[s] with HP have been increasingly disappointing. Recently..."
That's been our experience, too. HP seems to be getting a little better, however, now that Carly Fiorina has left. Before, it was REALLY ugly.
How does excessive packaging happen? It happens because people become so unhappy working for a company that they slip into becoming robotic drones. Nothing matters. They just try to get through each day. Illogical packaging is only one of the many, many illogical things that happen every day. Those people never go to hell, because if they arrive there, Satan says, "You've suffered enough. You don't belong here."
Can HP possibly be fined for this? They should be, IMO.
This is just nuts. 17 boxes to protect 32 pages.... for crying out loud, even if you want to argue that they needed cardboard to prevent any folding or bending, the desired goal could have been accomplished with just two sheets of cardboard... one in front and one in back, and the pages and protective cardboard put safely into a bubble-wrap mailing envelope. Not only would that be much more eco-friendly, but it would also cost a heck of a lot less for postage.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
This is the craziest I've ever seen personally.
A box arrived in the mail. It was maybe 10 x 6 x 4 or so. Inside that was a manila envelope. Inside that was a small box, slightly larger than a jewlers ring box. Inside that was a clear plastic pill bottle. Inside that was a small ziploc baggie.
Inside that was ONE styrafoam bead, like from a beanbag chair. it was the replacement foam bead for an anemometer.
At least those can be opened with a box cutter/stanley knife where other clear armor plastic encasings can cause self-injury and anger tantrums/building damage.
There may be a reason behind the practice of shipping single sheets of paper individually boxed. It makes them look important. This policy may have been established following an important customer accidentally tossing licenses or keys out while unpacking s/w manuals and media.
Have gnu, will travel.
If it turned out to have actually contained HP hardware, it would have been a much bigger waste of packaging.
http://twitter.com/OLDTELEGRAM
It takes more energy to recycle a plastic bottle than to make a new one.
So, so far we're feeling good for no reason. And that's fine too. But if you want to feel good while being stupid and wasting your time, maybe *heroin* is for you. -- "Penn & Teller: Bullshit!" Recycling
Same goes for paper and cardboard. Almost all of it now comes from plantation grown trees.
What?
When you die, you go to a structure, with enough of room for you--minus all your garbage. Thanks a lot for needlessly screwing up the planet for every one else, you selfish bastards!
https://www.youtube.com/c/BrendaEM
We need to start doing this.
We need to recycle this crap.
We need people to push gov to make energy plants that can burn this crap.
And despite the inexcusably top-heavy driver installs that come with their printers (or did last I had one with Windows)....
And despite their inexcusable spying on employees and journalists...
I still give HP mad props for their efforts at e-waste recycling. They put together that thing a couple years ago where you could drop off just about anything electronic at Office Despot, and damn if I didn't fill half a container with museum qualified crap going back to 10MB MFM drives. (I'm keeping my 8" floppies and my S100 bus CP/M boat anchor, those you'll have to pry from my cold dead hands. But anything PCjr or later you can take, and you did, HP, didn't you.)
And for that, I will continue to give HP some slack, and I still go a bit out of my way to hit OD for supplies. (But HP: please fix the ridiculous over-packaging problem, and please try not to spy on reporters.)
I recently had to order 5 power cables from a Cisco reseller and 3 days later they showed up in HUGE box that was some 10 times the volume size of the cables and jam packed with packing material and paper as if power cables could break if the box was dropped.
What a waste!
No trees were killed in the making of this post; however, many trillions of electrons were horribly inconvenienced.
That statement did not sit well with me, so I did some research. Wikipedia seems to indicate that a good chunk of the deforestation done is to produce paper.
Personally, I think hemp should be more commonly used to create paper. It grows quickly, and has many uses. Hell, even the US constitution is written on hemp.
It's like finding 'hypocrisy' in the dictionary: http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/globalcitizenship/environment/index.html
It takes more energy to recycle a plastic bottle than to make a new one.
So, so far we're feeling good for no reason. And that's fine too. But if you want to feel good while being stupid and wasting your time, maybe *heroin* is for you. -- "Penn & Teller: Bullshit!" Recycling
That assumes that you are using the plastic to make another plastic bottle. What about where you make something else out of the plastic that doesn't require the same amount of processing vs having to make new plastic?
How much petroleum is used to recycle a plastic bottle vs making a new one?
MrCreosote Meow!Thump!Meow!Thump!Meow!Thump! "You're right! There isn't enough room to swing a cat in here!"
Wow! Looks like HP has gotten more efficient in their shipping.
About ten years ago I get back from lunch to find a huge box at my desk. Typical workstation plus monitor size box from HP with a shipping label was like 4ft+ cube. Was not exactly sure what it was so got to openning it. Inside that box was another slightly smaller box also with a shipping label listing one HP address to another HP address. This went on for quite a while til I got to a small box with padding. (If I recall the stuff have been shipped a total of 5 times adding several boxes each time) Inside that box was a large manila envelope. Inside manila envelope was a white envelope (or might have been the other way around) it has been a while. Inside that was a single 5" by 6" sheet of paper with a single license for the HP-UX 9 C++ compiler.
I had order 5 licenses... the next day another of the licenses came, though at least the outer box was not quite as large. I often wondered if it was either that there shipping system was set up for just sending license keys or if they really wanted to make sure that piece of paper didn't get lost in the mail.
The other odd thing was the licenses didn't include any serial numbers or what not, just the B code number for the software and a statement about it being 1 license.
Paper recycling is pointless. It biodegrades and you can easily grow more, whats the point?
google Recycling Is Bullshit
Ask the lead singer of Cameo.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
I worked for HP for several years, so this is personal experience.
For a High Tech company, they are still extremely retarded in the way they handle things.
Here are some examples:
Leave application forms. Go to a website, fill in a form and then print it and fax it to your manager. There is no way to "submit" the form to a database which then emails the manager. I was probably one of the first people to print-to-pdf and email it instead.
Procurement: Once when I moved roles within HP, I needed to order a laptop. So I ordered a laptop, docking station, and carry case. These were standard laptops. The order processing centre was located in Singapore or Malaysia, and so the laptop, the docking station and the carry case were air freighted to me from Singapore even though my office was about 5 Kms from their Warehouse in Sydney.
Paper recycling is pointless. It biodegrades...
Theoretically. Practically, no, not once it goes into a landfill. That's why you can still find readable newspapers from half a century ago.
As a rule, stuff doesn't really biodegrade once it goes to the dump.
I had 2 identical shipments from Cisco last year that were shipped on the same day from Singapore. All the boxes contained were license agreements, about 5-6 pages in total. Apparently it was cheaper to print the material in Singapore. I seriously doubt that the shipping and handling costs were cheaper going that route though.
I just got hired by HP and I am awaiting for my contract to arrive in the mail. Its taking awhile so I hope its because it will be coming in a huge box like this.
Penn & Teller: Bullshit
Nice source. A second rate Vegas act featuring a fat loudmouth and a mute. And of course they have no political agenda. Guys like this are the reason mainstream voters are frightened of Ron Paul.
Just callin' it like I see it.
Where I work we buy a lot of HP desktops, only problem is that mice are not included in the box and they ship the mice separately, in separate boxes with a single mouse in each, also in plastic packaging, on a crate with hundreds of others. It freaks people out when you can lift a very large crate of unopened boxes. It really does drive us nuts though. Smarten up HP.
You should have seen what my USB drive from newegg came in. It was enough packing peanuts to feed a packing elephant for days! Anyway, if you think someone at HP thought "hey, let's send licenses out like that!" it's probably more like they put all licenses in those boxes to go with packages and failed to consider that someone might order them seperately and it would have taken a lot of labor to unbox them all and put them in envelopes instead.
Google's Super Secret Search Algorithm: SELECT @search_results FROM internet WHERE @search_results = 'good'
From the strength of your opinions I'm guessing you've never seen a paper mill or know that making pulp from trees for use in cardboard creates sulfur dioxide.
'Here is a list of things recycled paper is environmentally better for than virgin paper: less bleaching, less energy, less pollutants, more benign pollutants, less impact on natural resources, less water, less waste to dispose of. The only waste product that is more of a problem with recycled paper is the sludge produced by removing ink and additives. However, this sludge is material that would otherwise be in landfills and it has repeatedly been proven to be non-toxic.'
- From The Society for Natural Resources Conservation, Cornell University
Yeah, I know you're going to come back at me with a quote from Rush Limbaugh or some advertisement you saw on tv... Or dismiss Cornell University as a hippy haven of intellectuals... Whatever.
Large warehouse management systems usually have a "footprint code" (or some other similar term) for all the items in the system that they ship. If someone is lazy and doesn't put one in (or uses some default setting) then the system picks the wrong size box to ship the product. The crew working shipping can't change it so they just ship it and tell the monkeys in charge they've got a bad footprint. *Hopefully* someone cares enough to actually change it to the right code. I've seen 100 CD's go out in 100 separate boxes for this reason.
I remember getting a set of VMS manuals from Digital. It was a very large box, very heavy (a set of VMS manuals weighed over a hundred pounds.) The books didn't fix the box exactly, and in the box was another box, empty, labeled "Empty Filler Box".
-- Of course I'm paranoid. I'm a sysadmin.
As for trees? Do you still think we live in the days of lopping rainforests? Majority of cardboard and paper are harvested from tree FARMS! Fast growing ones designed for making paper
Only in parts of the world where we've already chopped down all the readily available trees.
We don't believe in radical loony monotheistic religions from the middle east -- we're Christians.
*BULLSHIT*, but believe what you want.
Recycling uses more energy than taking something new. But so called "plantations" are on the same land as there were once forests. They displaced those ecosystems.
But if you want to call plantations forests that were planted by people as replacements for native, old growth, then you are right. There is very little or NO old growth forests in most countries. And what is left is just random spots on the map.
But then what next? Recycling oil or tires uses energy? Just dump it in the local pond. That'll team them kids!
A second rate Vegas act featuring a fat loudmouth and a mute.
So what's a "first rate" Vegas act? Don Rickles and Debbie Reynolds?
What?
So what's a "first rate" Vegas act? Don Rickles and Debbie Reynolds?
They are about as close as it gets. The fact of the matter, however, is that Vegas has no first rate acts.
Just callin' it like I see it.
It's like using a Perl hash table containing integers encoded as strings, when all you really wanted was "int x[10];"
Bu-hull. Shi-hit. Recycled paper uses less energy that new paper.
True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
but what ever you do, don't fire the manager who developed that policy in the first place.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
if they could get the width to be fluid that would be nice... or maybe just a wee bit wider... please
------ no thanks... I've quit
No its the fact that Ron Paul is a nutbar is the reason that people don't like Ron Paul.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
Paper also takes energy to produce, as well as recycle. Of course, as the moment something is of interest to environmentalists both the pro and anti sides immediately dash out, cherry pick the data they like from the scientific literature, and then declare the extremes of the range all over the internet, it's very hard to get an accurate assessment of which is better in energy terms by googling - you'll get the extremes and the puff pieces. But to change the views from the consensus does require clear proof (I need numbers, not just people saying it is so in their books), and that appears to be lacking.
Both production and recycling consume water, and use chemicals. But I've regularly seen the claim that recycling uses less chemicals than from virgin wood (including in peer reviewed academic journals), and very rarely seen it the other way around. I'd need a cite from a believable source with evidence that they've actually measured it rather than just declared it.
Paper isn't purely made from trees. There's usually other stuff in it as well (e.g. chalk, china clay).
Clearly you've never lived in a woodland area. I grew up in an area classified as a rainforest. And believe me, if 35% of the trees cut down is to produce paper, then I'm all for recycling paper. I've always been careless about recycling, but maybe I should start, after having read that. What the logging companies do is just horrible.
I am a Oracle Magazine subscriber (free magazine, totally useless but great when I need quality paper for packaging). Once they sent a "special edition" magazine with a promotional CD included; it was sent in a standard A4 envelope. Well, the Oracle guys decided it was a really important CD and sent me another copy, just to make sure. It was in a paper CD envelope, like Ubuntu's free CDs, but the paper was much thinner. The paper envelope was put in bubble wrap, and the bubble wrap was put in a cardboard box the size of a 500-page A4 paper pack. The cardboard box was sent as a DHL package, the delivery was priced something like $20-$30 (paid by Oracle). And the best part? The DHL-shipped version arrived a month later than the copy I received with the magazine (and probably was free for Oracle to ship since they already paid for shipping the magazine).
I used to work in the fulfilment arm of HP's major competitor. We had a situation where an enterprise license COA sticker worth $50k was shipped in a jiffy bag. Package was so small it got lost,Customer refused to acknowledge receipt, mother of all witch hunts afterwards. At least not much chance of this package going adrift. Also their fulfilment system would probably have these licenses as line items in the order, so they have to be individually boxed/labelled/scanned anyway, so I would think it was a good idea to use a bigger carton plus overpack to minimise the chance of the package going astray.
Balance the cost of saving the planet against the reaming you would get if it got lost.
I know what I would do.
As a las vegas resident I can say with quite some certainty that las vegas is where old acts go to die.
Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
I work in a decent sized HP IT shop and this happens to us all the time as well. On many occasions we have ordered RAM for servers and find that a single stick of RAM is double boxed in boxes the size of boxes that dell uses to ship entire computers. On top of that if we order multiple sticks of ram, they all end up in separate boxes, no combined shipping. I'm surprised nobody is looking into this because it could be a HUGE cost savings for a company like HP to do shipping more efficiently.
The best use of recycling for plastics is for building materials. The stuff is extremely durable and very strong, in case you haven't noticed when trying to rip open the package. The tree farms usually occupy land that has already been cleared for other purposes, such as strip mining, for example. I don't think they cut down old growth simply to put up a tree farm. I doubt there is any real reason to cut down old growth at all anymore. There shouldn't be anyway, beyond some specialized need.
What?
Back in 1996 I was doing HP-UX system administration, and we ordered a (small, maybe 10) number of software licenses for a pair of servers and they were packaged exactly like this. One license key on a piece of paper in each box, packed in a larger box.
This is because HP is a hardware company, not a software company. A software company ships bits, a software company ships boxes... Simple as that. "We just got an order for 16 of part number XYZZY, pull them from the shelves, box 'em up and ship 'em out". Shipping a license key is done exactly the same way as shipping a server or a multimeter, or a signal generator...
Plus, on the receiving end it is something that even knuckle-draggers in receiving can understand. "We ordered 16 part number XYZZY, here I have 16 boxes saying XYZZY on it. order received".
So, it's totally stupid in some ways, but I can see why they do it.
Sean
I wonder if HP is a green company? Or maybe they are working on saving electrons by not using email...
A while ago, our company ordered an upgraded protocol license for some Intel telecommunications gear.
A few days later, a big box shows up -- I think a 2 x 2 x 2 foot cube. In that box was a wad of packing peanuts, as well as a padded envelope...
When we opened the envelope, we expected to find a license button, which would be physically installed in our equipment. There would be no reason to ship that in a large box, but at least a license button would have been some tangible product that justified shipping.
Alas, the envelope contained no license button after all. Instead, it contained a single sheet of paper complete with instructions on how to access a web site, and a validation code to use. That validation code would then give us an actual license key, which we could then enter into our equipment to unlock the extra protocol features (that were already built in to the equipment).
I can't quite put my finger on it, but something seems a little wasteful here... I'm *sure* if somebody thought hard about this, they could probably find a way to do the whole thing electronically...
wait a second. not a single person sees that first picture which smacks of two boxes taped together and thinks to call "bullshit"?
I'm not defending stupid packing process, but really? Really?
Alternatively I expect someone totally bored and with a sense of humour at work.
Oh yes. Googling "Recycling is bullshit" is sure to return accurate and unbiased results :-/
We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/globalcitizenship/environment/contactemail.html I asked them what they were going to do about this. If they get enough complaints, maybe they'd just do something about it. Of course you can also choose to spend the next two minutes writing a smart comment instead of trying to do something about it. If you do what you did, you get what you got.
Come on - what sort of a CEO would that make him? He'd be laughed out of the building by all the other CxOs.
A couple years ago....
After one single doorbell ding followed by the usual screech of rubber and roar of diesel exhaust, I open my door to discover that UPS has left the following:
AN ENTIRE SHRINKWRAPPED PALLET containing 22 identical smaller boxes.... which in turn, each contained ONE (1) HP hard-drive.
Which is fine... except I only ordered TWO (2) hard-drives. Somebody in HP's order fulfillment has a bit of a stutter in their keyboard's "2" key it seems and "2" became "22". 8-P
I bet that dang UPS man *KNEW* that delivery was an HP screwup...which is probably why he beat feet as fast as he did. 8-P
For example:
playingcatchup
therestoftheinternetalreadysawthis
ondigg2daysago
There is already a running joke on digg about how everything shows up there a day or two after reddit..
since this is technology news, and your grandparents are always the last to hear about the latest and greatest technology, and it first was seen at reddit and then digg and now here, does this mean we're our own grandparents?
We once gave bed sheets as a wedding present, but tied them to a torus knot using chicken wire, covered with cellophane and braid.
In that particular wedding the maid of honor slightly opened the packaged presents so that everyone would see what the happy couple were getting as a present... however, she wouldn't dare to touch the torus knot.
--
You are spot on with this comment. The problem with hemp is the fact that it is called hemp and this word is synonymous with marijuana so in the eyes of the public it is bad and for some competing business this is a good thing to foster. What many people fail to realise is that linen which is still a prized fabric is actually made from hemp and linen can last quite a long time (well over 100 years) because of its hard wearing properties (maybe that is why some business don't want to compete with it). Many beneficial products can be made from the hemp plant (not the one you get marijuana from) and today many countries are starting to realise that this plant has been much maligned. For more information on hemp this site is a good start .
Anyway back on topic. I get software informational updates from HP and also from other vendors and most vendors do provide a cardboard box with one or two slips of paper. This IMHO is annoying because I have no use for the box and in many cases the slips of paper are just as useless. From my personal experience the best vendor for reducing waste is Redhat. (others may have different experiences) I only get email advisories which is all I want. Actually many years ago HP did this as well.
Oh and what happened to "quote", even "blockquote" does not work properly?
There ain't no such thing as proprietary standards only proprietary formats. Standards are by definition open.
I believe the notion of shipping licenses in boxes started at Digital Equipment Corporation. The idea was that by shipping it in a box, it was less likely to be thrown away (as "worthless paperwork") before reaching the technical person who would understand its value. That idea seems to have survived two changes of corporate ownership, so maybe it's correct.
This doesn't even come CLOSE to electronic component samples.
I ordered a sample of a surface mount inductor once from Pulse. They sent me precisely one inductor (about 1/2" square and 1/4" thick) in a plastic box, wrapped in 1" bubble wrap, inside a 6" cube box, which was then surrounded in 10" of foam on each side, styrofoam spacers, all inside a 12" cube box, which was then peanutted and placed in a 16" cube box.
All of that for an inductor. This is common practice in the electronics industry.
Paper recycling is pointless. It biodegrades...
Theoretically. Practically, no, not once it goes into a landfill.
Well then, all the better. As long as the stuff stays intact, the carbon in it is sequestered, and we have less of that evil carbon dioxide stuff.
Here's your sig.
Has anyone ever noticed how Penn & Tell look like Rebo & Zooty?
:)
Uncanny.
Ah, arrogance and stupidity, all in the same package. How efficient of you. -- Londo Mollari
Back when HP was Compaq I once received a shipment from them consisting of one 60cm x 100cm x 100cm box completely filled with loose styrofoam packing chips. At the very bottom of the box, where none of the packing material would do it any good at all, was a plastic envelope containing a handful of license keys.
At least the guys who shipped this package made sure that their paperwork was protected from damage. It seems they're learning.
About 20 years ago I was working for a company that used Xerox Star workstations. These had an optical mouse that needed a special pad with a pattern that the mouse could track. These pads were thin card and they would wear out after a while. We ordered some more and sure enough, they arrived individually wrapped in cardboard boxes about an inch thick with the whole lot in an outer cardboard box.
We went through all the same comments that are being posted here about inefficiency, why can't they put then all in one box, or just an envelope.
You may think that at least in that case there was a physical thing we needed rather than just the information on the paper but the Xerox laser printer we had attached to the network was perfectly capable of printing sheets of paper with the necessary pattern
Being older and wiser than I was then I now understand that it can be more expensive in resources as well as money to set up different processes for doing different things rather than having one process that does many things, albeit somewhat wastefully in some cases. If you must have a packing and shipping system for cardboard boxes and you also sometimes need to ship sheets of paper you either use the box shipping system with the apparent waste seen here or you set up a separate system to handle paper with its own environmental cost,
... What many people fail to realise is that linen which is still a prized fabric is actually made from hemp and linen can last quite a long time...
I don't think so. Linen is made from Flax fibres http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linen as a simple wiki reference can confirm. My grandparents grew up in an area where flax was grown for linen production.
Dell are buggers for this, its more like theyre trying to restrain the monitors rather than package them. Just in case they escape in transit.
Well, Bart, your uncle Arthur used to have a saying: "Shoot 'em all and let God sort 'em out."
It's called the ICC, Intel C Compiler. The reason people pay for it is because it is the fastest damn compiler out there. Every time I see compiler tests done there is always some back and forth, some are faster at one thing, some at others. Newer ones are generally faster than old ones... Then, at the top of the pack, is ICC. It produces the fastest code in EVERY test.
Now if this were Intel marketing material, ok, but this is every test of the compilers I've ever seen done by third parties. Intel's compiler just knows how to produce extremely optimised code for their processors.
As such, it is no surprise that people buy it.
I can understand that all the sheets are packaged individually and each sheet package is packaged into a bigger container.
What I can't understand is why they are packaging 2-3 sheets of paper in a foam-padded box instead of a flat envelope.
Wow! Really?
You'd sack everyone for any mistake without even looking into how the mistake happened?
You'll sack the person who decided to use the same packaging for licences as for CDs. Seems a bit heavy handed. You could just send a memo saying "don't do this". Then you'll sack the person who decided that since there were several boxes going to the same address, they should be boxed together. Why? What was his mistake?
Pass the parcel. Ever.
"Three eyes are better than one" -- Lieutenant Columbo
Actually, the US Constitution is written on sheep, not hemp. No joke.
It's just Kraft Paper. Not too many harsh chemicals used at all. The biggest environmental hazard would be the energy use in the kiln recausticizing the lime mud, since the caustic is reused.
I'd wait for cellulostic ethanol to take off. Recycling becomes a pretty good idea THEN.
It's been a long time.
You said,
"Apart from this, numerous HP employees have been discussing this subject within HP. People like myself and other individuals from the Software branch have pointed out this is a wasteful approach. And judging by the brand spanking new e-delivery option and certain other efforts within HP, I see that this is actually worked on for SoftWare."
And:
"Probably the costs that are associated with a radical change of this system are quite high, because it's likely that many changes need to be made in databases, order systems, processes and procedures."
And:
"As said, I have seen indications this is being worked on, but one has to remember we are a company the size of a small country, and that makes it a little more difficult to maneuver than a one man company."
Wow! Isn't there some mid-level manager at HP who is willing to say, "Stop sending single pieces of paper in boxes! Never do that again." ???
You made me realize the weakness of my grandparent comment. I thought I was giving an accurate picture of the misery inside HP. But I forgot to mention the most scary part of being a corporate drone: The drones don't realize they are drones. Woooo-oooo-ooo.
The situation is even worse than that! (Similar to the late-night Infomercials: But wait!! There's more!) At least, when it is only excess packaging, it is possible to just put the cardboard in the recycle bin. The real misery happens when drones become involved with technical details. I remember a conversation with an HP representative about a model of HP laser printer that costs about $1000. He told me, if I remember correctly, that it was entirely reasonable that if that model printer needed routine maintenance, the work could not be done locally, in our big city.
Nothing about this should give the impression that I think corporate drones are a particularly bad problem at HP. I have had worse experiences with Microsoft and Intel representatives.
(But wait!! There's more!) It's even scarier when entire departments become drones. I was on an Intel marketing email list. I got many emails suggesting that I would be motivated to buy Intel processors by the fact that Intel would give me a free bunny suit doll.
Hah! Are there people who don't believe that Intel was using dolls to sell processors? Believe! It's not my photo; I just found it with a Google search. I would never jump through the hoops necessary to get an Intel Bunny Suit Doll.
How did the department at Intel scarily called "Marketing" first arrive at the idea that making customers jump through hoops is doing something good for the company?
Then, later, the entire idea that "Intel Marketing" should do something good for Intel was completely abandoned. That happened years ago, so long ago that no one who is there now can remember when Intel Marketing was good for the company, or even cared about being good for the company.
Want a recent example? The new Intel 45 nanometer processors, which are an extremely impressive engineering achievement, I think, are called Centrino 2. Before they were "Core 2 Duo". Believe! (More Infomercial talk: That's not 1! Not 2!! But 3 uses of the concept two!!! The second person in the infomercial says, "John, that's Amazing!!!!")
You think that monster attacking Sigourney Weaver in the movie Alien was scary? "Intel Marketing" is even scarier than that. At least Sigourney Weaver realized she was being attacked by a monster. The really scary thing is when someone has become the monster, and doesn't realize it.
Maybe Intel top management thinks that Intel Marketing is like prostate cancer. Sometimes, if a tumor isn't growing, it is considered better to let it stay in the body.
Most of the energy for making paper comes from burning the non-fibrous sugars and such from the trees themselves. Generally, a well designed paper mill doesn't need extra energy input except for the lime kiln which recausticizes the lime mud extracted from the green liquor.
For unbleached kraft, I'd imagine recycling would simply be throwing it into a repulper before the washer stage, and letting the washers take care of any contaminants. I'm not sure if it'd reduce the amount of lime mud to be recausticized or not.
It's been a long time.
I'm curious. How is he a nutbar?
I've been through his entire political platform a number of times, and it all seems very rational and sensical to me. What am I missing?
It's been a long time.
Wrong. Linen is made from flax.
Honestly the reason people think twice about hemp for industrial use is that the people advocating its use are always in favor of smoking marijuana as well, so to put it mildly, there's questions about their impartiality and motivations.
Hail Eris, full of mischief...
E pluribus sanguinem
More ignorance.
NOBODY chops down old growth forests to make paper.
And I'd venture a guess that you've never been to the sort of place where they harvest the trees to make paper. It's 3 hours drive between gas stations, and no houses or anything, just straight trees in both directions. Displacing ecosystems? Quit being so arrogant.
It's been a long time.
It can also be done more cheaply with Xylene (paint thinner). I just love to see huge chunks of styrofoam melt into a goo! :D Plus if you're really out for a good time, the resulting goo should still be flammable...obviously there are safety and environmental issues there though.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
While I'd agree that the "tape barely holding the box together" method of shipping isn't the greatest, it should be noted that often the most efficient packaging is not the CHEAPEST packaging to ship.
Surely enough people around here have gotten multiple shipments from amazon to note that other than actual physical minimums the size of the box you receive your shipment in (and the number of boxes it comes in) has absolutely no relation to the size of the item shipped.
Often there is a contract with a shipper that says "if I ship X number or Y pounds of product, I'll get a price break of Z%." Amazon (and presumably other companies) will ship items in odd configurations to maintain this discount. Amazon does it so well (and needs it for the bottom line so much) that they have an entire department dedicated to the development and maintenance of the program that decides packaging and shipping.
the fact that you don't let being wrong about basic facts get in the way of your marijuana advocacy, i.e. what linen is and what the Constitution is written on (parchment).
I'm in favor of relaxing the War on Some Drugs, but your ignorance isn't doing yourself any favors.
Hail Eris, full of mischief...
E pluribus sanguinem
When I was doing my BS in Bio, one of the profs had a contract to do research for SE Asia - where they do grow hemp for textiles & rope. There were at least 4 Bankers Boxes of paperwork for this project - along with a security greenhouse.
Radioactive materials could be had from the Physics supply closet by asking the work study kid at the window.
A couple years back I ordered six 18" long clamps from amazon. Each weighs about 2 lbs. UPS delivered six mangled 12x12x18 boxes, each containing one clamp and about 50 ft of those air pocket things.
Sarcasm is dead. There is no possible way that Chrisje was serious. Any rational person with even a limited exposure to computers and a vague understanding of software would realize that there is no excuse for this type of wasteful packaging behavior from a technology company in this day and age. That comment is ROFLMAO comical. This is *Slashdot*. Have none of you mods ever been around *software*? All this talk of part numbers and order handling and logistics for a tiny bit of *data on paper*? You realize, don't you, that HP could modify the program that generates the data on paper to group, print, and ship rationally? You realize that other companies long, long ago solved this problem, using software? Obviously somebody at some point in their process knew this stuff was all going to the same location at the same time. That's a great place to start looking for how to prevent this particular criminal packaging stupidity. Solving this problem isn't even hard. It just takes the realization that it is a problem, and it can be solved. Chrisje undoubtedly realizes this, and produced a masterful bit of sarcasm, which went right over your heads.
If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.
I once received a large box from HP containing several smaller boxes of stuff. The final one was one of those 9x12x3 boxes other people have mentioned. Inside it was a single sheet of paper that read, in its entirety: This box intentionally empty.
My post was sarcastic and comical. This point will be lost on many, and my karma will suffer a dent. Fortunately I've got loads to spare. Sadly, Chrisje appears to have been serious.
If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.
Oh, I can see a few reasons to do it this way, to some extent, at least.
For example, ship 5 licenses to customer, put it in five boxes. Then, when UPS/Fedex/whatever delivers, they scan five items, the customer signs for five items, and can't complain that they 'didn't get one.'
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
..one of the pages got torn in transit.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
While I am not for waste by any means, I just wanted to let you know that - at least in areas where landfill space is scarce - this is kind of old school.
What they do nowadays is pour water over the landfill repeatedly. This creates a lot of putrid water at the base which they then pour back over the landfill. They keep doing this until the landfill stops making methane (which they use to run the pumps). This has the advantage of reducing the bulk in the landfill, and it also reduces the load on the local sewage plant... surprisingly, the water gets cleaner and cleaner as the bugs go at it.
They used to spend a lot of time trying to keep water out of landfills, but now they are more interested in catching the water. They still ultimately cap the landfill with a water resistant membrane, but only after the above process... you still don't want long-term heavy metal and toxic stuff leaching into the ground.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Yes, but that's what management is for. It's not just there to cash in the big bonuses and invent pseudo-jargon babble for the next meeting.
If the shipping department doesn't know what they're shipping, then make sure they know it. If corporate regulations are 50 years too old and have no provisions for shipping individual pages, and disgruntled people slip into drone mode and apply the dumb rules verbatim, then update those rules. That's what management is supposed to do: manage the whole damned thing.
I mean, this kind of thing just reminds me of Scott Adams's assertion that capitalism is harnessing the power of human stupidity, and that at any given time 80% of society's resources are pushed off a cliff by idiots. And in this case, also considering the extra truck space for the boxes (hence, you're also hauling more tons of truck per page sent, and paying the gasoline for it) and all, it comes out to orders of mangnitude more waste than actual product.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
I recognise they're high theft items but they're starting to get a little excessive.
Bought a plastic car that was in a thick cardboard box and sellotaped shut. Once that was removed there was another box inside made of molded plastic. Scissors time. Inside that is yet another piece of cardbord and the car is SCREWED DOWN to it. Screwdriver time - and the screws are about 2" long. Finally, I have 4 large ties to remove to free the stupid thing. Took me about 20 minutes to get the thing out (with an excited 5-year old waiting for his new toy and getting very impatient!!).
It cost $5 at Wal-Mart!
In terms of dumb shipments from technology companies, I ordered a small antenna from radio shack once (about 5" long) and it came in a huge box completely filled with the popcorn styrofoam. The antenna was in a small ziplock bag in one corner.
It must be some sort of new sport amongst packaging people.
A variable for "marketing splash made by issuing bad marks to a given brand" appears to be given about equal weight to "legitimately wasteful or unnecessarily toxic practices", by Greenpeace. They get far more publicity for issuing a ticket to Apple for using 3 wire-inches of the wrong type of plastic in an iPod model than they would ever get for ticketing HP's stupid behemoth wasteful packaging, which has been seen by every corporate customer of HP. (I've seen strikingly similar examples of insanely wasteful packaging from both IBM and Dell, as well as HP).
Please note that I think Greenpeace is doing the world a service by calling attention to those 3 wire-inches of environmentally unsound plastic, but they need to get a little smarter about who, why and how they critique and praise. They are not doing a very good job of translating the attention that they get from issuing a ticket to Apple, into attention on the issue of the toxic compounds in question. There are zillions of tons of this stuff used in all manner of products and manufacturing processes. These compounds get into the water that we drink and the food we eat, and there is mounting evidence that some of them cause cancer and other serious health problems. Mercury and lead are no longer even controversial, decades of research confirms that even low level exposure to lead can cause serious problems, and probably knocked a bunch of IQ points off generations of exposed people. If, say, 1/4 to 1/2 of our population were 5 or 10 IQ points smarter, how much better off would the world be today? Yet we continue to allow tons of mercury to go up the stacks of coal fired power plants, and smaller amounts to be dumped in lakes and rivers as a result of manufacturing processes. Lead paint shows up on imported children's toys because the west has been willing to circumvent its own environmental policies by exporting the manufacturing to developing nations with un-enforced or non-existent environmental safeguards.
How does this Greenpeace video and press release help educate people and motivate people about these issues? Missed call: the iPhone's hazardous chemicals. Well, it really doesn't. It just gets a bunch of headlines to the effect of "Greenpeace iPhone Smackdown". Greenpeace has figured out that they can get a lot of attention by poking at Apple now and then, but they haven't figured out how to turn that to advantage. They mention a few chemicals here, including phthalates, but they don't mention that these compounds are used in FOOD Containers, which is a much more likely source of exposure to the compound (most people do not eat their iPhones) and that it has been linked to obesity and diabetes ( Obesity In Men Linked To Common Chemical Found In Plastic And Soap )and might be a serious contributor to a global health crisis. Greenpeace could be turning these waves of press attention into a serious national discussion of phthalates, additional research on the topic, and removal of these compounds from food containers, which would be a rational application of the precautionary principle. Instead, they are squandering the opportunity for a few headlines and links to their web site.
If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.
Hey, you get it! It's not about "energy", it's about use of non-renewable resources.
Energy matters, of course, but probably not the small amount of energy that goes into making a $0.10 bottle.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Reminds me of that old Phil Hartman Sketch where there is an anal retentive carpenter and he even individually packages each item of garbage in it's own quadruple stapled double layered paper bag.
Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...
Perhaps this says more about you than it does Ron Paul? :)
Just teasing. I don't think he's a nut bar, like in the Ross Perot sense. I just think he's a little bit of an antique (and not in a good way). I also don't know anything about his education background, but he sometimes seems a bit uneducated on topics that he holds passionate opinions.
My main hangup with him is his support of the gold standard. This think was discussed to death... about 100 years ago. I see very little merit in tying our money supply to an arbitrary commodity - no matter how shiny and pretty.
He also has weird environmental stances. He "doesn't trust" the federal government to manage our forests. Why? Because they sell lumber... huh? That is exactly why the forests are managed in the first place. He makes some valid criticisms about US environmental policy, but then makes a totally unrelated jump to conclude that private property rights would sort this all out... which simply isn't borne out by a study of history. I'd like an example of a culture who preserved their environment from the bottom-up rather than the top-down.
He's anti-gay-marriage, which wouldn't bother me too much except that it directly conflicts with his otherwise very individualistic world view. He's almost a libertarian, but he's anti-gay-marriage? Huh? Still, Thomas Jefferson had slaves, so clearly great men can have bat-shit-nuts conflicts in their ideology. At least there is some evidence that Jefferson struggled with this.
Ending birthright citizenship is pretty scary, too. I mean, this entire country is descended from immigrants. Not to mention that the problem he's trying to "solve" is immigrants coming here to suck from the teat of the "welfare state"... I can right off the bat think of a better way to accomplish that goal - don't give them money. But then, I don't really think that goal is very good either.
Immediately pulling out of Iraq is a bad idea, and very immoral if you ask me. Even if HE didn't make the mess, it would still be his responsibility to clean up after his predecessor.
I disagree with him on some other points too (stem cells, energy, etc), but the above are the reasons that I think he's a little bit of an oddball. He might be nuts, but I'm hoping that he just lacks some critical thinking skills or possibly some history education.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
This is not enough packaging. They should have shipped a truckload of sixteen wooden crates, built with inch-thick plywood, each crate containing a large wooden box built with thick finished mahogany with golden hinges and latch, each such box containing within it a large cardboard box buried in packing peanuts, each cardboard box containing a smaller one packed in foam, each smaller one containing an envelope, which contains the sheet of paper.
McCain/Palin '08. Now THAT's hope and change!
Maybe they can change their slogan to:
HP: RE-Invent
or
HP: PREVENT
??
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
I'm curious. How is he a nutbar?
I've been through his entire political platform a number of times, and it all seems very rational and sensical to me. What am I missing?
Making up words is sensical.
-- If an artist saw things as they truly are, they would cease to be an artist.
I used to work at a facility that built and shipped out equipment for HP as well as a couple of other major computer firms, and HP had the most ridiculous requirements from start to finish for their products. The packaging was perhaps the most absurd. I can confirm what everyone else has said, that this is standard operating procedure for HP. An HP representative once explained to me that they did this because "presentation is very important to our customers." I couldn't imagine that the customers would care if their package arrived with tape that was an inch lower on one side than on the other, but those were the sorts of things we'd get dinged on if a box were shipped out like that. I mean... crooked tape on a cardboard box, and someone would be out there yelling at the poor shipping guys.
And yes, we shipped out pieces of paper in cardboard boxes packed in cardboard boxes too. Yes, the shipping department knew what was in them... sometimes they were the ones putting the paper in the box to start with. We all thought it was ridiculously stupid, but the last thing anybody wanted was an HP representative out there, angry and questioning the wisdom of their contract with our company to handle their stuff for them. So we shipped the stuff out like that.
Oh, and the other two companies we were contracted out to? They pretty much were happy as long as the right stuff got to the right place on time and undamaged. Beyond that they more or less left it up to us to handle shipping procedures.
I couldn't read the image well enough. I'd like to know what the license was for that was so important that a single sheet of A4 paper needed to be packed in a foam-lined box.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
They pull shit like this, yet when I order a laptop, instead of an OS disk or restore media I get a piece of paper with a picture of a CD on it telling me to burn my own.
No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
Costs about $10. The customer gets it promptly, they're happy. You get a signature of the recipient, so your ass is covered.
I got a regular sized legal envelope that contained a letter telling me that, "I might be a winner of a contest held by a local radio station."
It didn't come from the station but some business in another state. My wife figured it was junk and wanted to toss it.
I figured it wouldn't hurt to fill it out, since I did enter a contest with that station.
After mailing back the form, I got an envelope by way of UPS with a small 4x6 card that said to take this to the local Circut City to claim your prize. A 51" DLP HDTV.
No fan fare, and no contact at all from the radio station. Fast forward two years. A Weber Grill shows up on my doorstep by way of Fed Ex. No shipping information, no info on who sent it. After a week of research, it turns out that I again won a contest from the same radio station.
Carpe Scrotum - The only way to deal with your competition.
Because Penn and Teller are a reliable source?
I'm also reminded of another episode they did on hybrid cars, where they declared them bullshit because of their weaknesses, showing none of their strengths.
It's a good show, but don't mistake it for a reliable source. It's punditry at best.
Cans? Seriously?! Hey screw that worldwide shortage of steel!!! I have a grocery bag full of cans right here!!!
Not all life is cyber. Extra Income
Recently I received a large box about 2ft by 2ft containing a smaller box which contained a smaller box which contained a letter wrapped in bubble wrap.
The letter said they would be shipping me some boxes to pack my returning item in.
During the time Carly Fiorina was CEO of HP, we learned through painful experience not to try to buy products from HP.
The reason I can support Ron Paul is that even though he doesn't believe what I believe on a few social issues, he strongly believes it wouldn't be the job of the Federal Government to legislate these things. He may oppose gay marriage, but if the tax breaks were gone, the Federal Government would be out of the business of legislating marriage, as it rightly should be.
The gold standard (He calls it that, but he's more interested in using a breadbasket of commodities, a more rational approach than gold-only) may seem at face value to be a bad idea, until you realise this: The hyperinflation of the past 20 years has promoted a culture of a debt-holding nation. If you saved 10,000 dollars only 5-10 years ago, that same money which could've bought 160,000 litres of fuel will now buy you closer to 10,000 litres of fuel. Other commodities are experiencing similar booms in pricing. Because of inflation, the money in your bank account is now worth 16 times less than it was 10 years ago. If you were saving for your kids college, your work is worth 16 times less than it was.
ON THE OTHER HAND, any debts you've attained are also worth 16 times less. Simply maintain a debt for 10 years, and you'll have 16 times less debt to worry about in real monetary terms.
We're seeing the effects of that right now. Food is going up, energy is going up, wages are stagnating, our savings are worth less, but the average US citizen has a negative savings ratio. We owe trillions to China, and from the rhetoric we're seeing, since China isn't buying our debt anymore, we're going to start seeing inflation reach new and terrifying heights as the Federal Reserve prints bank notes to finance wars we have no place in.
On Iraq, Ron Paul uses the examples of Korea and Vietnam to show that leaving Iraq isn't necessarily immoral. We stayed in Korea, we stayed for 50 years, and nothing's changed. Vietnam, on the other hand, has united, and today we trade with them and we're allies with them.
While Ron Paul DOES focus on sovereignty and keeping illegal aliens out of the country as a matter of national defence, his root plan IS to stop giving them money. It's to stop giving EVERYONE money. Compared to the current administration taking out debt our kids will have to pay back so they can cut us all a cheque, I'd say that's a pretty damn reasonable idea.
It's been a long time.
He may oppose gay marriage, but if the tax breaks were gone, the Federal Government would be out of the business of legislating marriage, as it rightly should be.
But that's not really true, and actually the opposite is sometimes true. Google "marriage penalty". Marriage is more than just a tax status - there are legal protections... not the least of which is that you cannot be compelled to testify against your spouse. Being "against gay marriage" is using the power of the federal government to change society, no matter how you spin it. But like you said, I don't necessarily hold it against someone for disagreeing with me on a social issue. I only pointed it out because it seems to go against the Libertarian streak that is otherwise so prevalent in him.
He calls it that, but he's more interested in using a breadbasket of commodities, a more rational approach than gold-only
It sounds good until you start to think about it. The gold standard was based on the government having huge stockpiles of gold to back their currency (and then later a percentage of their currency). Using a "breadbasket of commodities" would have to work differently, unless you think stockpiling commodities is a viable approach. So what he is actually proposing is "pegging" the dollar to the cost of some commodities. While this may work on some level if the rest of the world jumps on board, it absolutely cannot work at all if the dollar is traded internationally, where inflation would be alive and well. I also dispute some of the facts that you present.
If you saved 10,000 dollars only 5-10 years ago, that same money which could've bought 160,000 litres of fuel will now buy you closer to 10,000 litres of fuel.
Right, but this factoid only works with fuel. AND you are ignoring the fact that fuel has also increased dramatically compared to the price of most other commodities - so you'd still be paying dramatically more for fuel under Paul's plan. If you look at the long-term price of fuel vs. gold, there is absolutely no correlation to speak of.
We're seeing the effects of that right now.
No, we're not. This is the logical jump that I was talking about in my previous post. What we are seeing is a jump in fuel prices due to demand increasing, flat supply, and speculation. Fuel is used to grow and transport food - and food is also now economical to make into fuel. We owe trillions to China because we've borrowed trillions to pay for military action and social programs - this has bankrupted kings since the days when the "gold standard" literally meant chests full of gold.
Now, no question - this IS going to fuel inflation and that would probably be addressed by being on a gold standard - but at the cost of long-term economic growth. I'd much rather see us reign in spending, which might be a pipe dream... but a heck of a lot more likely than convincing everyone to go to a gold standard. In fact, I remember a surplus in the 90s which, while a fluke of economics, proves that it IS at least possible.
I'm not sure why you think that gold-based money can't be borrowed. The government could still borrow money backed with gold, and then they'd have to spend a bunch of money on interest payments, just like they do now. And that would increase our taxes, leaving us less to spend on other stuff - just like now. So yeah, the cost of a bag of flour wouldn't go up in ABSOLUTE terms, but it would still go up as a percentage of our income.
We stayed in Korea, we stayed for 50 years, and nothing's changed.
How can you say that? South Korea is one of the most economically powerful countries in Asia. Today almost 50 million Koreans live in a prosperous democracy because we stayed there. Meanwhile, 23 million North Koreans live in misery under an authoritarian regime. How can you argue that letting those well-off 50 million people live like the dirt-poor 23 million would
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
I remember seeing this sort of thing from HP back in the mid 90s. I've gotten similar boxes like this in the past, big boxes enclosing small boxes enclosing sheets of paper. Some of them, if I recall correctly, weren't even anything "useful" like license keys, but legal boilerplate type stuff.
Just becuase the Federal Government would be out of the business of legislating marriage doesn't mean the states couldn't. Frankly, I'd prefer it that way. Let Texas have their "one man, one woman" rules, let a place like California have their own "two people" laws. The massive expansion in federal power is a problem. It lets idealogues dictate how to live to all 50 states, where the US was designed for a minimalist federal government.
Let the US stockpile the resources it needs to keep a commodity based currency afloat. It would encourage savings, it would dissuate governments from running up the debt, it would stop inflation it it's tracks. We're on the edge of a very scary cliff right now. Our options aren't "stifle growth" and "keep growing", they're closer to "stifle growth" and "completely crash". The subprime mortgage crisis is a sign of things to come. Our entire economy is based on irresponsibility. this is the sort of thing we're seeing right now. Fuel prices are another rising cost, food prices too, and soon everything is going to cost a lot more, because truckers and manufacturing companies aren't going to accept subsidizing our lifestyles forever.
It may be possible to have a surplus, but the fact is, it's very easy to justify debt with current economic policies. The US ran up a debt of about 200 million in World War II, and considered that an incredibly huge debt. Today, thanks to the hidden tax of inflation, that 200 million is a drop in the bucket we could pay back in a single year if we were so inclined(Cancel the war, pay back the debt twice). Why bother saving money when it will be worth less later? Why bother to NOT borrow money when the value of the loan will depreciate rapidly over time? There's a reason why in the past 20 years we've gone to having a negative savings ratio.
In Korea, you're completely heading off in another direction from where I was. If North and South Korea were forced to deal with their differences on their own like vietnam, there's a good chance that they'd unify and get over their differences, just like vietnam did. There's also a good chance that once we're out of Iraq, and we stop killing people over there, we'll see a drop in violence, rather than the expected increase. Besides, why is it our responsibility to police the world, to keep military bases in a full quarter of countries on earth?
As for civil rights issues, the US has no moral ground upon which to be talking to anyone. We've got secret prisons throughout the world, where we wilfully participate in torture. We've invaded countries that didn't attack us and slaughtered at least tens of thousands of innocents(And currently shoot anyone who looks at us wrong in our benevolent governance there). We're eroding the rights enumerated in our own constitution. Under the PATRIOT act, we're picking up dissidents and locking them up without a trial or writ of habeas corpus. Face it. We may have a better PR team than Cuba, but we're no better.
I'd say, let's drop all entitlements for ALL people(granted, phasing them out over time so the people who use them now aren't left in the cold). Not just immigrants, for everyone. The fact is, it doesn't matter how much money we give to people through taxes, we're just taking them from taxes. Governments can't create weatlh simply by taking from everyone and giving to everyone. Either you're creating two classes of people, net tax providers and net tax consumers, or you're going to tax people for the amount of services they use, which would lead to the eventual end of government services as free market forces go and provide the same services with greater quality or lower cost.
When a system is abused, it is often restricted or eliminated. Birthright citizenship is a perfect example in this case. If large amounts of people are breaking the law and violating our sovereignty in order to exploit birthright citizenship rules, then it only makes logical sense that such citizenship will be restricted.
It's been a long time.
"Looks like HP should invent itself some envelopes."
But the printer can't handle them!
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
Let Texas have their "one man, one woman" rules, let a place like California have their own "two people" laws.
That's exactly how it works right now! Are you saying you like Ron Paul's stance because it changes nothing? His stance on the "marriage penalty" is meaningless because he wants to get rid of income tax altogether. I think marriages should be recognized country-wide, even if the marriage isn't legal in some states. If two guys get married in California, Alabama should be forced to recognize the marriage even if they won't marry two men themselves. Otherwise you are inviting federal mediation, which I think we both agree should be minimized.
where the US was designed for a minimalist federal government.
"Minimalist" is a relative word. The colonies certainly did desire a weak federal system, but the Articles of Confederation were too weak. The Constitution is much stronger - though still weaker than some other countries. I agree that it should be kept as small as possible, but do recognize that there is such a thing as "too small".
Let the US stockpile the resources it needs to keep a commodity based currency afloat.
Every commodity kept at Fort Knox is wasted. Kept out of the economy. Gold has industrial uses, yet is sitting in vaults. Oil is extremely useful - locking it away in perpetuity is hard to justify. All it will do is drive up prices of these commodities, because they will become more scarce. Some commodities are impossible to store - like food, which makes up one of the most important parts of what people consider "inflation". So any currency based on commodities would not include food, significantly reducing its usefulness.
It would encourage savings
I don't think that there is any evidence of this. Japan has a high savings rate and does not use the gold standard. The savings rate in the US was over 10% in the 80s, well after the abandonment of the gold standard. It is true that we are in trouble, but the currency standard has little to do with this.
, it would dissuate governments from running up the debt,
Again, how? Kings borrowed money long before federal reserve banks! You can still have loans even with a gold standard (pay me x amount of gold plus interest).
it would stop inflation it it's tracks
The immediate effect would be to cause massive inflation as commodities are stockpiled by the government. Once commodities prices have stabilized, inflation would remain in check for THOSE commodities only. Oil would have gone up even with the dollar pegged to the price of gold. If you don't believe me, google the price of gold and the price of oil over time and look how much they diverge.
Fuel prices are another rising cost, food prices too, and soon everything is going to cost a lot more, because truckers and manufacturing companies aren't going to accept subsidizing our lifestyles forever.
I think you'll see people change their lifestyles. Savings rates can't stay below zero for very long - people will have to eventually live within their means. Disruptive, yes! But like you said, we have been very irresponsible and now we have to pay the piper. The gold standard would do nothing to change the price of oil.
Why bother saving money when it will be worth less later?
That is incredibly naive. "Saving money" does not mean putting a pile of money into a 2% saving account! When you buy real estate, that is "saving money". When you put money into a mutual fund, that is "saving money". Inflation is not a hidden tax - it is just part of the economic system. Any decent investment is going to beat inflation. That 200 million, adjusting for inflation, would be about $1.8 billion in 2007 dollars. Plopping that 200 million into a bog-standard saving account at an average of 3.76% would yield the same $
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
A marriage in Canada is recognised in the US, why would that change for marriages between states?
No matter what your definition of the word "minimalist", I think the US government obviously doesn't apply anymore. Every problem in the world these days they try to solve with another department.
You prove me right by showing what the investment in 1945 dollars is worth today. Putting that money into the high interest savings account would result in a loss of 600 million dollars to inflation, and most of that inflation comes after the 1970s with the end of the breton woods system. If you can't put your money into a high interest savings account without losing a large portion of that money to inflation which exists becuase of attempts to finance wars by the federal government, I'd call that a hidden tax.
You say I'm naive, but I say you're ignorant of history. Inflation effectively didn't exist for 200 years under the gold standard. in the '20s, in an attempt to break the depression, they deviated from the gold standard and inflation began to creep up after the war ended and the effect of that deviation could be seen, and in the '70s when Nixon completely broke the final ties to the gold standard to help finance the war, it began to increase at an incredible rate.
We have no moral obligation to Iraq, for one simple reason: There's no reason to believe we'll be able to solve anything. We've been over there 20 years, and through our meddling, they've gone from being the most progressive, liberal, advanced nation in the middle east to being one of the most violent, dangerous, backwards nations. It's time we just pull out and let the Iraqis handle themselves, becuase we've had our shot, and a lot of people are dead for it. Our moral obligation is to stop playing God, stop spending our children and grandchildren's money on undeclared wars of aggression, to stop policing the world, and to have our military defend OUR borders instead of fighting useless wars out on the other side of the world. We've got the largest military in the world, the most advanced military in the world, there's no reason why we should even be having the illegal immigration debate. We spend more on the federal army, navy, and air force than the next 20 countries combined, we should be able to defend our own borders.
I'd love to agree with you that the press isn't under attack, but the whitehouse just won't let me. A family member of a dissident was put in mortal danger by the whitehouse for purely political reasons. If you don't see anything wrong with that, maybe I should point the jihadists at YOUR wife next.
Besides, they're secret prisons, and it's been established that we DO torture. How the hell do YOU know that people aren't getting locked up? It's not like they have right to common-law writ of Habeus Corpus. We could be holding a bunch of press there right now, and call them terrorists so the people don't get all upset.
I mention entitlements, and elsewhere I mention birthright citizenship. In my post, they're completely disconnected. Could it be that like you've done here, you're imagining a connection where none exists? Illegal immigration is a sovereignty issue. Our armed forces should be able to keep invaders at bay, and if they're not, we shouldn't be in other countries.
It's been a long time.
A marriage in Canada is recognised in the US, why would that change for marriages between states?
Because Ron Paul supports the "Defense of Marriage Act" which would exempt states from having to recognize gay marriage.
Putting that money into the high interest savings account would result in a loss of 600 million dollars to inflation
That's only true if: (a) a high-interest savings account were a good investment and (b) rates did not fluctuate. Neither of these things is true.
Fact is, $200 million invested in 1948 would have yielded:
# $3,099.40 if saved in a short-term asset.
# $9,822.43 if saved in a long-term asset at a term of 1 years.
# $14,658.83 if saved in a DJA portfolio.
source: this page
Inflation effectively didn't exist for 200 years under the gold standard.
That's another thing that simply isn't true. Here's a chart showing inflation in the US since the 1600s. See how spiky it is? Now I'll grant you that there are also periods of deflation that tend to balance out the long-term trend. But moderate, sustained inflation is far easier to deal with than spiky, unpredictable inflation. Can you imagine trying to live during those spikes into the 20-40% range? Upward would be horrible for the working people and downward would be horrible for businesses. Pre-WW2 history is full of panics, bank failures, and depressions. And wars. Lots of poverty. In short, all of the things promised by a return to the gold standard already existed before the gold standard was abandoned.
and in the '70s when Nixon completely broke the final ties to the gold standard to help finance the war, it began to increase at an incredible rate. [inflationdata.com]
Could be, but I think it's related to government borrowing and the price of oil. Specifically, the huge spike in oil prices during the 70s drove inflation then (as it is doing now). Then, the Regan-era spending drove inflation through massive government accumulation of debt.
they've gone from being the most progressive, liberal, advanced nation in the middle east
Iraq? Under Saddam? No. Maybe you are thinking of Israel? Had we done what we should have in '91, Iraq would fine right now. The mess in Iraq was prolonged by a dysfunctional UN.
It's time we just pull out and let the Iraqis handle themselves
On this we agree, but it has to be orderly. We started the shooting and we need to end it.
We spend more on the federal army, navy, and air force than the next 20 countries combined, we should be able to defend our own borders.
LOL. We like the cheap labor. We don't really want to secure our borders. Groceries are already expensive enough as it is. You want to end illegal immigration? Stop employing illegal immigrants. We have no one to blame but ourselves. I hire them all the time every time I order take out. You hire them whenever you buy a sack of fruit. My in-laws hired them outside the 7/11 to help them move. They are just normal people trying to earn a buck, and we willingly give them bucks. Arming the border would probably be effective, but is just about the biggest waste of money in terms of potential solutions.
A family member of a dissident was put in mortal danger by the whitehouse for purely political reasons.
While I agree that incident is disturbing, and I hope that the person responsible is caught and punished - you cannot compare a leak to the press, no matter how damning, to the systematic arrest and incarceration of every political opponent.
We could be h
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Acute market fluctuations and true inflation are two different things. I can show you 10 years where prices went down, and 10 more where prices went up. The thing is, from 1800 to 1900, the cost of living was virtually unchanged. From 1900 to 2000, the cost of living increased by orders of magnitude.
Sound money doesn't promise to be a cure-all, and if you think that, you haven't been listening to Ron Paul, because he hasn't promised it'd be a cure-all, just an effective part of a larger economic policy. It will stop long-term inflation. It will stop the government from inducing inflation to pay for wars. It will ensure that people's savings won't erode because of an increase in the money supply, thus promoting savings(Investment is different from saving. If I saved 100 dollars in 1900, it would be worth 5 cents on the dollar today). It will ensure that debts won't simply disappear after 100 years or so because of inflation, thus eliminating perpetual accumulation of debts.
Government accumulation of debt is related to price increases, but inflation of the money supply has occurred because you don't need an ounce of gold to print one dollar. At it stands, because of the unsound money policies, the government can borrow 1 trillion dollars from China, spends that money, and the banking system which holds that money can create 3 trillion dollars in US Dollars. That's what's killing us, that's why we've got the massive, continuous spike in consumer costs, because the monetary supply keeps on going up and up and up.
It seems to me that your history only goes back 20 years or so. This is true with respect to your understanding of the monetary supply and the gold standard, and it's true with respect to Iraq. They are the only arab nation that did away with the sharia courts and replaced it with a western system of justice. They are the only arab nation in the middle east that gave rights to women. They built roads, they built the best education system in the middle east, and all of that was ended when we pushed Saddam into the 10 years war with Iran. In 1991, we'd already been messing around in the middle east for 50 years, and in Iraq for at least 20.
We finished the shooting. Saddam Hussein's Iraq is done, his Republican Guard defeated. It's gone. It's over. We won the war. The war is over. We need to leave. Let the Iraqis police themselves. If they want help, we'll train them, but not as occupiers, as allies.
I agree with you regarding illegal immigrants. They just folks trying to make a living in the world. I'm not saying they're bad people, I'm saying that it's the duty of the federal government to defend our borders, and the fact that they're here means they're failing their mandate. Bring our troops home and defend our borders before fighting in other countries.
I CAN compare this leak, which put a family in MORTAL DANGER, to jailing the same sort of opponent. Just because you use sneaky Karl Rove tactics to kill dissidents doesn't mean you're any better than the more honest totalitarian who'll just send jack booted thugs to your door.
I should also point out that Ron Paul didn't make discontinuing birthright citizenship a part of his platform while running for President. His plan is extremely coherent in terms of simply removing advantages to becoming an illegal alien for the people and for the employers. Employers can pay less and don't have to pay tax for an illegal alien, and that's a massive market advantage over a regular person, who wouldn't want to break the law and get caught by the IRS. Right now it makes sense to support stopping birthright citizenship because the incentives to break into the country and give birth are too great, but his plan as president would be to simply eliminate any incentive to illegally come into the country, or any incentive for us to care that he or she is illegal.
I agree with you that border security ought to be very lax in order to facilitate tourism and trade. Th
It's been a long time.
We ordered a large batch of equipment from Sun (same number of Sun Rays & LCD monitors). The Sun monitors come packaged with monitor, 1 power cord, 1 DVI cable, 1 VGA cable, 2 DVI-to-VGA adapters. The Sun Ray (2FS, which has 2 DVI ports) comes packaged with 1 power cord and 2 DVI-to-VGA adapters. In addition, we are separately shipped the same number of 2x2x2 boxes containing nothing but a power cord. And for these intentionally lightweight, low power devices, these are THICK heavy-duty power cords. Heavy, so that must have increased the cost of shipping.
All of the above comes with various manuals in 17 languages, as well. Not to mention each manual and CD (a CD for the monitor, which contains THE MANUAL on PDF) are individually plastic bagged, styrofoam, and boxes within boxes...
We end up having to dispose of 100's of extra video cables, power cables, and DVI-to-VGA adapters. (Costs to us: Staff time, proper disposal fees, cost to the environment, etc)
Part of the reason we go with Sun Rays is to be environmentally friendly. I would say that we lose the environmental edge by all the packaging, but for the fact that nearly all computer vendors have the same excessive packaging.
This is going to remain a problem as long as the cost of packaging labor & shipping is cheaper than management's time to review packaging/shipping procedures. Which it is, for now.
If I saved 100 dollars in 1900, it would be worth 5 cents on the dollar today).
"Saving" does not mean wadding up a $100 bill and putting it in the mattress. When people "save" they either put money in the bank (a bad investment, but still an investment), put money in some kind of fund or bond, buy real estate, or buy some kind of commodity. If you took that $100 and bought 5 oz of gold as your "investment", it would be worth about $4735 today. Inflation since then makes the $100 like $2210 in today's dollars. So your gold investment would have doubled in value. It would have gone from $2210 to $4735 in today's dollars. Or if you'd prefer, you could have put the $100 in the bank. It would be worth $3,006 now. Not as good as the gold performance, but you'd still be up over 36%.
So where is this "tax"? As long as you aren't an imbecile and keep money in your mattress it seems like you make out in the long run.
Note that I don't think my numbers include income or capital gains taxes, so actual yields could be much lower. Income taxes are another discussion, though :)
I don't know what you mean by debts "inflating away" either. It's true that the principle amount inflates away, but in the meantime you are servicing the debt at 4.5% annual interest. So over 30 years you pay far more than the original principle. Put another way, if the interest was capitalized the debt would far exceed the rate of inflation. If investors don't think it will beat inflation, they won't buy the debt!
It seems to me that your history only goes back 20 years or so.
That's really not fair. Every chart and link that I've referred to goes back to at least 1913. As for Iraq's history... it was "modern" by Arab standards - so what? Not a hint of democracy ever. I'm not going to defend the US actions there, but I'm not going to waiver from the viewpoint that we have a moral obligation to leave it as a stable country. If we get beat - fine, we lose and go home. But leaving because it doesn't match an ideology is just completely irresponsible. It makes our lifestyle more expensive? Well, boo hoo - war is expensive. Cry me a river and vote against invasion next time.
If they want help, we'll train them, but not as occupiers, as allies.
That's pretty much where we are right now. We occupy little tiny sections of the country only. We have very little control over the day-to-day activities of Iraq. Even Obama is finally coming around to realize this. We want to stay in Iraq about as much as Iraqi's want us there. I mean, Jeez... we only invaded in 2003 - that's not exactly a long time ago. If we get in and out in 10 years, I think that's pretty darn good for executing a war and rebuilding. Just over 2 presidential elections in political terms.
I CAN compare this leak, which put a family in MORTAL DANGER, to jailing the same sort of opponent.
Not unless you can show that it is systemic. A single isolated case of an executive branch government employee being put in danger which is openly discussed in both the media and by congress is completely different from a government-sponsored reign of terror against any and all who oppose them. Going after a whistle blower is bad, but not Cuba bad.
I definitely think we should stop policing the world, take our armed forces, more powerful than the next 20 armed forces combined, and guard the borders.
And I think that we should actually face our own problem like good neighbors and decide whether we want cheap labor or not. Clearly, those who control the government want cheap labor, and they pull this ridiculous charade of "border security" to please the anti-immigration groups. They would NEVER put any serious security at the border because that would staunch the flow of cheap labor.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
When filling a box with padding to protect a small item like a sheet of paper, you might be able to reduce the shipping cost if the padding material is lighter-than-air. Instead of using foam peanuts or plastic bags full of air, use plastic bags full of something like helium. The resulting package might weigh less than the empty box.
Saving is saving. Investing is investing. The fact that you can't even conceptualise the concept of saving money, that you HAVE to risk your money in an investment to even consider it saving, shows that I'm on the right track. If you had 100 dollars in 1800, and you buried it, your same 100 dollars in 1900 would be worth about the same, with a very small amount of annual deviation. If you had that same 100 dollars in 1900, it would be worth the same as 5 dollars would have been worth in 1900. The fact that you MUST invest your money, the fact that your money MUST make more money in order to stop itself from being devalued shows that inflation is a tax, and it sucks the value out of your money. 1913 isn't far enough back in terms of monentary policy. For 130 years before the great depression and FDR, we had sound money. Inflation isn't a mandatory part of the monetary system.
If you don't believe me that inflation is a tax, just ask Ben Bernanke, chairman of the federal reserve. "[...] I couldn't agree with you more that inflation is a tax, and that inflation is currently too high."
You can decide not to waver, but you should at least consider the idea that being foreign occupiers in this reigon of the world, guilty of a war of aggression against an arab muslim nation, means that our VERY PRESENCE in the reigon CREATES instability. I argue that for the cost of staying there, human (ours AND theirs) and otherwise, it's immoral to be there. Our arrogance is making the situation worse, not better.
Our banana republic there, our puppet government, doesn't really count. As long as we're there with our guns and bombs and planes, it's really hard to argue that we're a benign presence, and that the government WE set up isn't really under our control.
The stuff that almost nobody talks about is stuff like the Valerie Plame affair, but what about the federal funding going into propoganda? Video News Releases are almost never talked about, but stuff like this means that we are more sophisticated than Cuba, but just as bad. Maybe worse, since we pretend we're moral and free and just.
We can agree that the people in charge probably don't care as much about cheap labour as they say. That's why I'm saying, if it's an issue, fix it. I'm sick of politicians pretending to care about things but voting differently. I'm sick of politicians pretending to be principled but pursuing whatever they want. That's why I think Ron Paul is one helluva guy. I may not agree with him on every vote, but at least he's been principled and consistent for 30 years.
It's been a long time.
The fact that you can't even conceptualise the concept of saving money, that you HAVE to risk your money in an investment to even consider it saving, shows that I'm on the right track.
No, it means you have a misconception about the purpose of money. Money is not an end, but a means. It is a way to make barter more efficient. Anyone saving money instead of something tangible doesn't understand what money is for. The first humans to use seashells to represent goods in barter didn't want to accumulate seashells - they wanted the goods!
Inflation isn't a mandatory part of the monetary system.
If you mean long-term inflation, you are right. If you mean short-term inflation (and deflation), you are wrong. Long-term inflation is not the painful type, short-term is. People are complaining because fuel just jumped from less than a dollar to over 4 dollars in less than 10 years. Food just shot up, what, 20 or 30% in the last 2 or 3 years? This is not new, and has nothing to do with the gold standard. My link from earlier shows an even spikier past than we have right now despite the gold standard. No one really complains about long-term inflation because salaries increase as well. But short-term inflation is indeed like a "tax".
But that's the rub. Fuel and food would be high right now even with a gold standard. If you are arguing that the currency could be pegged to the price of oil, let me remind you that the entire (expanded) strategic petroleum reserve is a mere 1 billion barrels. At current prices that is only about a $130 billion worth of oil... and that's what the US uses PER DAY! In contrast, the US holds about 27% of all the mined gold in the world. Can you imagine what would happen to the price of oil if the US decide to buy up enough of it to back its currency? Not to mention that it might be a really, really bad idea to base your currency on something that can be created artificially - or even simply found spitting out of the ground. At least all of the easy gold was already mined when they were on the gold standard (though they have since figured out ways to mine a buttload more).
Our arrogance is making the situation worse, not better.
It seems to be getting better.
Maybe worse, since we pretend we're moral and free and just.
Morality is relative, justice is decided by the victor... but by any objective or subjective measure, the US is more free than Cuba.
I may not agree with him on every vote, but at least he's been principled and consistent for 30 years.
I admire him for that. Personally, I don't think he's nuts. I think he needs a good economic education, a smattering of a history lesson, and I don't think he has very good critical thinking skills. Other people see his statements and think he's just plain nuts - and I was just trying to relate to you why that is.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
That's common. I just got a monster package (with lots of peanuts and reusable air packs) containing 4 boxes with 1 paper license in each box. This was for Brocade fiber licenses. It's truly nuts. A FedEx envelope would have been just as secure, cheaper and far more efficient.