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Judge Rejects H-1B Visa Injunction
theodp writes "Judge Faith Hochberg has denied a preliminary injunction sought by the Programmers Guild to put a hold on a controversial 'emergency' rule change by the Department of Homeland Security to permit foreign students to work continuously in the US for two-and-a-half years after graduation without an H-1B visa. Hochberg indicated she failed to see how an increased labor supply could result in wage depression for engineers and computer workers. That seems disingenuous, since in Andaya v. Citizens Mortgage Corporation, Judge Hochberg recently saw first-hand how a US employer got away with paying an H-1B computer engineer as little as $15,000 to do a job with a 'prevailing wage rate' of $41,000. In that case, Hochberg ruled against Filipino H-1B visa holder Almira Andaya, arguing that 'nonpayment of wages as listed on the H-1B visa petition ... does not raise a substantial question of federal law.'"
Welcome to the country of unlimited possibilities ... ... to get ripped off!
Really, both the H1-B Visa holders and US employees are at a loss here.
molmod.com - computing tips from a molecular modeling
I find it interesting that Slashdotters and the posted articles tend to be quite libertarian on many issues, with one of the exceptions being protection of the tech jobs market. Isn't it a bit hypocritical or am I missing something?
Seriously, 15k for skilled labor is crazy. If the US wants to offer wages like that, all the best workers will be going off to a first world country like India.
a controversial 'emergency' rule change by the Department of Homeland Security to permit foreign students to work continuously in the US for two-and-a-half years after graduation without an H-1B visa.
A good percentage of you here on /. voted for those chuckleheads. So big surprise when they turn around and dick you by making it easier for your employer to replace you with someone making cardboard slum wages. And even if the next president cuts it off the day they take office, the people already here will be able to stay to middle of their term.
Nice.
Funny how the rules on the war on terror manage to line up with corporate interests, isn't it? Just hilarious.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
how an increased labor supply could result in wage depression"
Yeah, And I fail to see how increasing the oil supply will result in lower prices per barrel. In fact, I fail to see how increasing the supply of anything will reduce prices. (Sarcasm off). Let's get these guys into a union to make sure wages at least remain stable.
What?
"Faith" must be a bush evangelical...because she is just that STUPID.
Or maybe she is just that stupid because she was a Clinton nominee.
As at IT professional, I hate the H1-B Visa program and want to see it eliminated. This judge is a complete idiot. Just because a person is from India or Bangladesh does NOT make that person a better IT worker. I work for a medium sized Midwestern University. There was another IT worker from India who went on about how technologically superior his country is and how his people are the ones that keep our technology going. Yet, this guy could not read the bright yellow and black tag on the side of a UPS that said to plug the battery in. There are about 10 others from the Indian subcontinent who work at my college in IT and every single one of them are sub par (of course, so is the rest of Information Services... but that is another kettle of fish).
As for my stance, I am for a reduction of ALL immigration, not just the H-1B.In my opinion, the the H1-B is just stupid. We should just train and hire our own people. We should also ban sending our jobs overseas just so corporations can give their CEOs 20 million dollar a year bonuses.
Don't rush me, Sonny. You rush a miracle man, you get rotten miracles.
What I do have a problem with is companies like IBM who say that they cannot find "excellent" IT staff in the US. Basically saying that, even though the US has generally the best universities in the World, somehow these excellent universities are producing average or mediocre IT folks. I can't find it, but even here on /., a CTO posted that he can't find excellent Perl programmers in Boston. Really?!
Now, before anyone posts that CS is about algorithms and etc... I realize that (get a CS Ph.D. if that's what you want to do.). But with a BS you're going to be hired as a programmer, admin, DBA, etc... And what matters is your laundry list of skills - and you better have at least 2+ yrs of experience with all of them. Period.
Now, can anyone tell me what "excellent" means? What makes an "excellent" IT person? It's not exactly working cheap. I finally got an answer from a defense contractor. They can't really play the H1-B game. They need citizens who can get a security clearance. Their complaint: They have a hard time getting coders who are productive enough. That's right, "excellent" is the ability to pump out code fast.
Get it done. Get it working. Get it done fast.
the fact that u.s. does not allow engineers to turn into yet another 'elitist' group of professionals is good for the economy. otherwise companies would continue the trend of moving jobs overseas. u.s. engineering sector would crumble if engineers started earning as much as lawyers and doctors. now, i think they should not stop there and allow doctors and lawyers from other countries to come and work in u.s. as well. but i don't believe this would happen anytime soon - speaking of hypocrisy of those in power...
Last month I asked the aging Bob Johnsonâ"former CTO of Burroughs Corporation when it was a leading mainframe company in Minneapolis where he developed the magnetic ink you see on the bottom of your checksâ"what he thought caused the loss of the Midwestern high tech leadership to the coasts, and he said it was the financial dominance of the coasts.
That squares with what I observed while at Control Data Corporation/Cray Research, Inc.
The reason Bill Norris and Seymour Cray were able to start CDC thence Cray Research was because they violated SEC regs and went around selling stock at PTA meetings, making a lot of middle class people retire very comfortably. My late father bought some Cray stock early on which helped greatly with his retirement.
When I was at CDC in Arden Hills, MN attempting to deploy the mass market version of the PLATO network with Internet-like capabilities (the system that Ray Ozzie (Bill Gates' replacement at Microsoft) cut his teeth on) in 1980 the primary resistance was from a middle management that, due to the financial press' hostility toward Norris's vision of a society disintermediated by computer networking, small high-tech farms and locally produced and consumed essentialsâ"had itself grown hostile to Norris.
My proposed solution is simple to state but will perhaps require a war to institute:
Replace all taxes on economic activity with a tax on net-assets, assessed at their in-place liquidation value, at the risk free interest rate (which according to modern portfolio theory is the short-term US Treasury rate) so as to extract all economic rents from the private sector, and then, to prevent public sector rent-seeking in pork-barrel politics, disperse those funds evenly in a dividend to all citizens, as the beneficiaries of the land-trust called the United States.
That will not only stop the vicious centralization of power in the private and public sectors, but it will clarify the role of immigrationâ"it is a dilution of the benefits intended for the Posterity of the Founders of the land trust called The United States of America.
Seastead this.
This says it all: http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/7628/helppack8hw1oh.jpg
silly me, I didn't think we had H1-B's in 1900. I thought we allowed people to immigrate.
The Judge's reasoning is based on the principle of "standing"-- whether someone is actually injured and therefore is a proper person to sue. Since the plaintiffs are by their own admission "unemployed or underemployed" they have no ACTUAL INJURY which gives them standing to sue. The case would probably have been decided the other way if the plaintiffs had been well-paid and lost their jobs to immigrants, because such facts would have let the judge *grant* them the standing required.
I wonder whether it was possible that the judge decided as she did even against a possible personal bias, based on the preliminary necessity she be able to find a precedent to grant the plaintiffs "standing". (The law can be like that..)
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
she failed to see how an increased labor supply could result in wage depression for engineers and computer workers.
She says:
in no sense could "wage depression through the economic forces of supply and demand" rise to the level of justiciable injury, rather than the "conjecture or hypothetical."
Instead of assuming the judge is an idiot, why not favor the much more likely scenario that the suit failed to show how the plaintiffs would be harmed and to what degree. They are claiming they are would be harmed by having their salaries reduced, when in fact they are "employed" or "underemployed". You can't claim you'll be harmed by having you salary reduce if your salary is already zero. It is not the judges job to "see" how harm could be done. It is the plaintiff's job to demonstrate how harm will be done. If they cannot do that, the judge's hands are tied.
Instead of H-1B indentured servitude, gilded as it may be, we should fast track such people for citizenship. Any country that can make America's marginal tax rates look good or otherwise sufficiently pisses off their people DESERVES to lose their best and brightest. America has traditionally been the common meeting place of the world's best and brightest and I'd hate to see that change.
But the big corporations that give $megabucks to the Democratic and Republican parties, slightly more to whichever is dominant at the time, really like the H-1B system so I don't expect much to change. The fast-track citizenship idea is from National Review.
"How can anyone be sooo stupid as to..." run their idiot mouths before bothering to look up the judge they're running their idiot mouths about?
I agree, so why did you do it?
Silly me, I thought your stupid comment about "I didn't think we had H1-B's in 1900." was an irrelevant smokescreen to avoid admitting you're wrong about immigrant labor.
Oh wait, it is and you are? I see...
H1B's would not depress wages if they made the simple change that the H1B visa holder could change jobs at will. Right now, H1B wages are depressed precisely because the visa holder will be deported if they quit.
"Hey boss! I found out that minimum wage pays more than you pay!
Oh, sorry about that. Let me discuss your feelings with the IMS.
Oh dear, where did my 'valued' employee get to?"
The system right now pits the Visa holder against the Citizen/Resident worker which further benefits large corporations. It's not a question of visa holder versus resident; it's both of those classes of people against large corporations who are (in my opinion) using H1B's to hold low-cost workers hostage and keep the price of resident labor as well.
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
--The FNP
"Would you want to write code for 15K a year?"
Not when minimum wage about the same amount ($7.25/hour is $14,500/year).
As to paying engineers $8.00 per hour, I'd rather not drive over that bridge.
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
I never said I was not for immigrant labor. It is not the same as a H1-B. I worked with H1-B's. They frequently learn, then return home and apply their newfound skill in their home country. That is not the same as immigrating where you typically stay as they did in the 1900 and keep those skills here. If you don't get that, then you will not understand my argument.
because at this point I hate (yes hate) bush so much I blame everything on him. It isn't right, but it is what it is:)
It would appear that you don't know what slave labor is. If you'd like to find out, try working as a domestic servant for one of the Saudi royals.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Yet another reason for obsoleting judges, like the music industry has been obsoleted by computers and programmers.
It is a pity their trade is an enemy to our trade,
since this is totally unnecessary.
So, what about making free systems that predict judgings?
Any other suggestions on how to accomplish this?
Kim0
Let's start accepting H1B's for lawyers and judges. I guarantee she will change her tune then.
I absolutely do not feel sorry for someone with an immigrant comes in and "takes your job" for less pay.
An immigrant, a younger worker, any other person willing to do the job for less, the principle is the same: a job is not a right, it's a business transaction in which either party is free to go and find a better deal if they can.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
This begs the question then of who has paid whom how much money (American currency)..?
All content in this message is copyright (c) 2008. All rights reserved. RIAA is prohibited here.
Congratulations on your success. The availability of experts like yourself is one of the key things that makes the computer industry in the USA as healthy as it is.
This country has for centuries been gaining the skills and efforts of those people like yourself, and like my ancestors, who had the initiative to get here. When immigration stops, that will be the time when we know that the USA's days are numbered.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Actually, there are two solutions here: the first is to organize to create a licensing process for programmers whereby you have to pass minimum standards and apprenticeship to licensed programmers in order to perform the job, with fines for anyone performing the job without a license.
This is not a solution, it's a whole new problem. The entire purpose of professional licensing has always been to protect those already in a given profession from new competition, to the detriment of the customer.
That is how the legal profession in the United States maintains its monopoly.
Exactly. You can add medical doctors, dentists, plumbers, and even hairdressers (in some states) to that list.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
People are all just people. I'm embarrassed to be a part of a group apparently so stupid that this point needs to be made. Patriotism and hatred of all things outside one's own country are merely tools that the elite use to control the actions of their own populace and make them do their bidding. We are all just passengers on the same ball of dirt. Open your eyes and stop letting the sheep herders herd you like, well, a herd of stupid sheep!
I can't find a fucking job skilled or unskilled right now, how can this possibly help?
The US has a "shortage" of trained nurses thanks to H1-B abuse for years. The hospitals (strained for money thanks to nonpayment by illegals who use the "emergency room" as standard care) looked for a way to cut wages, so now the average nurses' wage is around $20,000/year with a ton of imported nurses that barely speak the language and were trained in countries where the standard is lower. My aunt is a victim of this, she was forced out of her old job when the hospital she was had to close down due to illegal-alien abuse and then she had to settle for a job at $10k/year less due to the wage suppression effect of the H1-B visa abuse. She was told, point-blank, at three interviews that there was no way they'd pay more than 22k for someone with 15 years' experience and that was "generous" because they were hiring the H1-B's for 18k.
The disparity between skilled industries (and yes, I count health care as a skilled industry, a nursing degree is at least the equivalent of a Masters' degree in resources and time spent to attain it) in the US is staggering, and you can trace the wage depressed ones directly to abusive "outsourcing" setups - whether it's the H1-B or illegal immigrant abuse ("we can't find anyone for the job... at the slave wages we're offering") or the shipping of jobs to places where the incompetence factor is high, like India, and then sticking the paying customer with the nuisance of dealing with crap "customer service."
In New Zealand they have a pretty reasonable solution solution; the minimum salary for a foreign worker on their equivalent of an H-1B visa is $55,000. Since your salary is usually a pretty direct measure of how scarce people with your abilities/training are and how much demand there is, anyone who is coming into the county to fill a shortage in a particular field should almost by definition be getting a relatively high salary.
$41000 is not six figures... who shunned math again?
Just a couple years later someone dropped me an E-Mail asking me about my experiences with Romanians. The prices he had been quoted from the contracting company over there were comparable or a bit higher than American contracting companies.
Since then I've worked with contracting companies in India and their turnover rate reminds me of the contracting scene in the USA in the 90s -- people come in, work a few months and then leave for the place down the street that is offering them $10,000 a year more. Now you can't really play that game with an H1B Visa, but that's really the only gripe I have with them. In a free market, people will not allow themselves to be exploited for very long.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Justlook at the way unemployment is going. The last thing we need are more workers.
The Programmers Guild has proposed a superb idea. Put the H1-B visa up for aution, rather than a lottery. This is a much more fair system, for a system that is supposed to bring in talent that isn't here in the U.S.. And it generates revenue for the U.S..
It's funny that the so-called "Free Market" advocates are against such a free market idea.
Open the boarders - but require these truly need professionals be given Green Card. Improve the labor pool. Also hold the payscale up. Because now they are competing fairly.
Today outsourcing is about coders not developers. In the US, we are more inline with developers - they think about the project and come up with their own ideas and improve the project. Coders just follow instruction and nothing more.
In the last century, this conversation would be about craftsmen and assembly workers. The first worked on project to make something special - say a chair - the second makes parts that are assembled. The first each as a work of art, there can be little differences based on the wood. The second maked mass produced item all identical but weaker since the quaility of wood is not what the care about.
And go and try to argue about the programming is like the second. It is not. Once the original is created exact copies are made with no "effort" execpt placement on a disk in a box.
No, it's not hogwash.
I've worked for employers who do this routinely.
But let's talk about the process. If a visa holder wants to leave, he must first find another employer willing to accept (a) H1B's (which eliminates all but large businesses (b) H1B transfers (which eliminates even more companies).
If you are an H1B, and you make noise about leaving, your employer simply calls the IMS and you have a few days to leave the country.
Let's be real here... if H1B visa holders had freedom of movement, then their wages would be no different than prevailing wages. The fact that you have skilled professionals from overseas working for $25-50K (I made more than that out of college 30 years ago) either says that (a) the wage supply is too large (which undercuts the arguments for H1B's) (b) there is an economic barrier people with H1B's that prevents them from exercising their rights.
I don't have an ax to grind here, and I think that there really should *not* be a barrier for skilled people to come into the United States, but I think it benefits everyone to eliminate the H1B and simply allow any highly skilled person to enter the United States. I don't see the downside, provided they have the same ability to negotiate wages as people who live here.
You're not wrong. Everything is as bad as you say it is, and you are one of the last boy scouts.
But we need boy scouts.
We need people who will still point out how flagrantly wrong and self-serving decisions like these are, even though doing so seems pointless. No, pointing this stuff out will not chance a thing. But having people recognize that things like this are wrong, is the necessary pre-condition for even the possibility of change to exist. If no one speaks up, then evils such as this would become the new standard of what "right and normal" is. And if that happens, then it would never occur to anyone else that things should, or even could be different.
Yeah, fighting against the tide rolling in seems utterly pointless. But at least the tide knows that you did not consent, you did not give in, and you went down fighting. Sometimes, that's enough to let a future generation pick up those ideals later on, and start the fight anew, and maybe even win next time.
There is nothing stopping any of us from taking advantage of these low paid programmer or engineers. Nothing except honor, self-respect, and human dignity. But they don't talk about that in business school, right? So fuck 'em, right?
"to the detriment of the customer."
Maybe -- but do you know something? *I* am the supplier, and NOT the customer. As to the customer -- they get the benefit of dealing with professionals.
I would love to organize.
Just another "Cubible(sic) Joe" 2 17 3061
The 'rule of law' is supposedly that it treats all those under its jurisdiction the same. The US Constitution and the Supreme Court used to say something on this as well. Underlying that sentiment is the idea that human relations ought to be organized on the principle of collaboration or partnership with others. This idea is at odds with the driving principle beneath the mindset of those who refer to themselves as conservative, which is that humanity ought to be organized by obedience to authority. This principle is the one that says a family must be controlled by a strong 'father figure', and that the nation must be ruled by a 'unitary executive' with the responsibility for protecting the citizens rather than for empowering them. Judicial decisions such as this one are consistent with this 'dominator' philosophy in that they place power in the hands of the corporation, which is another flavor of 'father figure' to its employees. We tech workers are therefore treated as children, and expected to obey whatever whim of those in power choose to levy on us, at the risk of punishment -- in this case economic punishment.
---
I write pointed short political and business stories at http://klurgsheld.wordpress.com/
I code. I work 12 hrs a day, six days a week, sometimes seven (no, we don't get overtime. no, we're not a start up.) So please, eat your own bull instead of slinging it around at others.
ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
I'll get modded off-topic for this, but I don't really care.
Your "mythincal girl" comment reminded me of something that happened here maybe 6-8 years ago, I'm guessing.
The following is from my memory of the events. A user commented about breaking up with a boyfriend in a very offhanded way. I believe it was just one sentence in a much longer post. The thread instantly grew to tens of posts saying "I can't believe there's a girl here" or "Will you go out with me?"
After much discussion about what kind of girl it could be, the original poster finally chimed in.
"You idiots, I'm gay," was the reply.
Put identity in the browser.
Sorry, but the customer isn't your property. If they like what you're offering, fine. If they don't, it's your problem and nobody else's.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I say, open the borders, let everybody in, in every profession. It'll depress our wages, but at least it'll keep immigrant workers spending their money in *our* economy, and hopefully some of them will decide to become citizens and come to expect our standards of living.
not really.. most people send every dime they can home as fast as possible..
one way immigrants (permanent or otherwise) manage to start businesses is by being as economical as possible while starting (10 people in a 4 person house) to save on expenses..
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
I seriously disaqgree with my conservative collegues and liberal union folks who argue against immigration to the United States. I am the descendant of immigrants, as is nearly everyone else in the USA, and our ancestors came when there were no rules to immigration.
I would argue that people who are motivated enough to leave their homelands to come to the USA are motivated enough to work hard and succeed and I have 200 years of outstanding economic growth and opportunity to back me up. Every time this country has opened its borders, we have gotten increased opportunity, increased social dynamism, all pumping the engine of capitalism and driving the USA to ever greater success.
Clamping down on Phds and graduate students from American universities is about the stupidest immigration policy that one could ever devise. If someone has come to this country to study and obtain a university degree, I would think that proves that they are the stuff we want our citizens to be.
The issue of immigration has split the Republican Party right down the middle, but I for one think that Bush and McCain were on the right side of the issue and it is a shame that the odd coalition of labor activists and xenophobes combined to bring what would have been an outstanding immigration bill dead in its tracks. Regardless of who is elected, I hope that saner heads will prevail in both parties, this time around, and America will once again live up to the promise of the statue of liberty, "Give me your poor, tired huddled masses yearning to breath free."... or, in the very least, "give me all of your phds in mechanical, electrical, and computer engineering, in fact, just give me all of them and your undergrads too."
This is my sig.
Every generation to the United States has brought with it a new wave of immigration. First we had the Spanish and Dutch, then the British, then the German, then the Irish, the Polish, the Italian and for every generation there were those that lamented the passing of an old American culture, spreading their fears about the invention of the new.
America is about change. The USA is the dragon of cultures, thriving on the human dynamism of constant change, and my Republicans need to be the party that embraces it. We are the party that has opened the borders to free trade and have asked the American people to live through the changes that it causes, and in doing so we should live up to our own ideals and not fear the changes brought about by the free flow of people as well as capital.
Freedom is a good thing. It means freedom to change, and change usually leads to improvement in the human condition. When people can move as well as their money, freely across international borders, it can only mean the lot of mankind is seeking and will eventually improve itself.
Both candidates have faults on this issue. McCain (when he doesn't change his mind), has been more right about free trade and immigration than Obama has, but he needs to accept that the old social norms of America cannot remain when new people join our country. Republicans need to note that Obama's opposition to the free flow of people and capital is an attempt to thwart change, not an embrace ofit. Similarly, Democrats need to accept that the best lot of humanity is to allow itself to change, and to accept the free flow of people and capital across national borders. If you want to be the candidate of change, accept free trade, and free immigration.
This is my sig.
I'll take my chances.
You can fold a lot of inexperience into "safety factor." I'd prefer to drive over a bridge designed by a fifth grader if the safety factor was high enough. I wouldn't want to pay for building it, but driving? no problem.
Can you be Even More Awesome?!
In order for DHS to change the rules, by law there has to be an emergency. There is no emergency. There is no worker shortage, there is no national crisis and there are Americans who need those jobs. The US just lost another 50K jobs in these areas. So, how does a judge get off claiming there is an emergency? Is our government that hateful of US workers? They declare an emergency to make sure US won't get those jobs? Is our government desperate to not hire Americans and will even break laws to avoid hiring Americans in America? Is our government saying no jobs for Americans at all costs?
http://blog.noslaves.com
'Cause the shrinking middle class is tired of seeing our funds be sucked up by other Americans because they had the money and connections to rip us off.
Food and gas goes up, who gets richer?
Blar.
by any means necessary. What we need is an Americans 1st for Jobs in America like every other nation has. China and India are getting massive support and investment for their workers. In the United States the attitude is anyone but an American (especially an older American!) So, you can flood a labor market with a guest worker Visa or a green card, not a problem.
http://blog.noslaves.com
I'd mod parent down, but I'd rather explain why I disagree.
Good. Moderating a post down simply because you disagree with it is an abuse of the moderation system - you may notice that there are no "-1, Wrong" or "-1, I Disagree" options.
However, there is the nebulous "Overrated" which is basically used the same way. Overrated is generally used by Slashdot mods as the "your opinion sucks and I'm modding you down for it" option.
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
"A good percentage of you here on /. voted for those chuckleheads. So big surprise when they turn around and dick you by making it easier for your employer to replace you with someone making cardboard slum wages. And even if the next president cuts it off the day they take office, the people already here will be able to stay to middle of their term. "
So do you honestly think Barack Obama is going to eliminate, or even scale back H-1B? Are you that naive?
H-1B is heavily supported by both major parties, and the Libertarians as well. So basically, the only political entities that oppose it... Greens, the American Conservative Party, can't even muster a combined 1 percent in the Presidential elections, so their influence is squat.
Since H-1B only affects a relatively small part of the US workforce, it's not going away. Ever. There just isn't enough middle class anger at it. So go ahead and replace all the chuckleheads in Washington. Hell, replace them all with liberal Democrats. Then despair at the fact that they're going to support H-1B as strongly as any conservative Republican. Because both parties believe it's good for our economy.
If you think H-1B's are going away in this, or any other election, more fool you.
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
Warren Buffett is suggesting that we allow more skilled workers into the country because it will help shore up the housing market and keep money in the US that would often go overseas with outsourcing.
Buffett wants much higher taxation for upper middle class and rich taxpayers. And yet he also supports not only more H-1B's, but much more H-1B's. So, is the middle class supposed to love him or hate him?
Something to consider... just because someone is rich doesn't mean they're right about everything. Wealth is simply proof that Buffett knows how to make money. Nothing more. We shouldn't assign him, or any other wealthy or famous man for that matter, any great level of expertise on anything else outside of their field of expertise. Would you take governing advice from, say, Larry Ellison? Nothing annoys me quite like "Well Warren Buffett says", or "Bill Gates says" in arguments that have nothing to do with what Buffett or Gates actually do for a living.
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
I thought the USA was founded on immigration, you know
It was built by immigrants, but strictly speaking, it was founded on tax revolt. We didn't like sending payment to England just because you were trying to pay for the French and Indian war.
-jcr
We really didn't fix immigration as a part of our national identity until after the Civil War. Prior to that time, most Americans traced their ancestry to Britain. Irish, Germans, Poles, etc, didn't start coming here until well after the country was founded, and didn't kick into high gear until after the War between the States, which, consequently, is also about the time anti-immigrant sentiment really took off. And that "nation of immigrants" identity hasn't exactly been static since then. After World War One, we locked down draconian limits on immigration that stayed in place until the early 1960's. I think eventually those draconian limits are coming back. Our attitude towards immigration seems to swing back and forth over the generations.
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
You say a generous H-1B program would "create an underclass of workers"
It already has.
And if you as a programmer don't think you're going to be seriously comp[snipped]
There are ways that won't be a problem - non-naturalized/full-blooded(2-3 generations presence) US citizens get first priority over any university slot and funding for all time required for the degree. Have this be conditional for any education required for any US job. When all 250m+ citizens have gotten their degree, then the immigrants can pay full price.
I say, open the borders, let everybody in, in every profession.
...as long as they don't mind a lethal dose of lead administered at 800 f/s. There's a difference between sound immigration policy, and the whoring of our nation. You seem to suggest the latter.
There are many ways to protect domestic jobs that don't drive them all away. It's called covering every single exit, closing every loophole.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
The Department of Homeland Security makes a rule change to allow additional foreign workers in the engineering and software fields. No doubt they see areas such as telecommunications, security, aviation and DoD work as being low risk. But try to get some Mexicans in here to pick lettuce and we have to build a wall to stop it.
I understand US industries motivation in this area. But aside from the DHS reviewing proposed visa procedures, I can't understand why they should be the ones to sponsor such a regulation. This would seem to fall more within the charter of the Dept. of Commerce. If DHS has no security work to keep it busy, perhaps its time to pull the plug.
Have gnu, will travel.
Free trade in people/labor is little different than free trade in goods and services. If the latter is good for everyone (except the domestic producers of that product) then how can the former be bad?
Goods don't complain when they're on the low end.
That is a significant difference and one that cannot be ignored. That's why our nation is kicking "free trade" out where it can, and will continue to do so in 2009.
Labor can be restricted to domestic and selected foreign goods from "safe" producers. You seal all the exits and close all the loopholes. When companies are held responsible for every domestic employee and their re-education, they will not be able to just "sink the ship and go elsewhere".
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Just cheap labor and lies by big business.
Cliche = "They do work that Americans wont do"
Which is a LIE. Americans want roofing jobs but roofing contractors would rather NOT PAY Americans.
They know that Mexicans are desperate. Valid comparison to slave labor.
Watch CNN lou dobbs. All at the feet of unamerican businesses who want to flood the USA with Indians and Mexicans.
If we employ protectionism, jobs will get offshored and that screws us by putting downward pressure on wages at home
Only if you don't cut off the financial and legal exits. Otherwise, it encourages places to work by the rules.
You're right that having people here keeps more money in our economy, but that's like saying, "well they put a boot in our ass but at least it wasn't a steel-toed boot."
If they don't play by the rules (or pull what Grigsby and Cohen do), they cannot just be outside of our jurisdiction. That is why managed trade is preferred over whoring our nation.
If there's any solution, it probably involves draconian protectionism.
The US may be able to get that starting in 2009. It may not be pleasant, but it is what the nation needs. What was started in the worker-hostile 80's is only going to be cleaned up in the near future if not today.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
The article is not about H-1B visas, it's about extending work permit (OPT) for students who graduated from US universities from 1 year to 2.5 years. I am a foreign student myself pursuing a B.S., and then a M.S. degree, and I can tell you than there is no way in hell I could afford to work for less than fair market value. You might want to research how more expensive is out-of-state tuition in colleges, and whether federal student loans and various scholarships / student aids are available for non-citizens (they're not).
Do you really think that a person who could pay more than $100k for education in a state university (not even a top-notch one) would work for $15k/year? Generally they have a huge debt from taking a private student loan, and they could not afford to have a lower-paying job. I know it's fun to bash _legal_ immigrants ("they took our jobs"), but I don't think someone who went through the trouble of being in a US college for 4+ years and spending a shitload of money on it could be qualified as "unskilled" or "unmotivated". You'll make an interesting observation going to a typical Engineering or CS graduate school - the majority of grad students are not Americans.
its your country. everything is at HYPERinflated prices there. the cost of decent living therefore is stupefying high.
includes everything from food prices to college education. so someone pays 100 k to a college, and expects to be paid enough to pay it out ? from whence does that guaranteed mindset come ? in a free market, you are shelling out $100k to get ahead of others, knowing that adding extra value to yourself will get you ahead, according to MARKET rules, but when you get out, you expect a wage OUTSIDE of the market rules ?
well. hypocrisy.
and im sure to receive a lot of selfish, self-righteous replies to this post from people who talk very sanely and reasonably on other subjects.
Read radical news here
Is our government saying no jobs for Americans at all costs?
Only if you don't peek behind the curtain and see that businesses acting like $DEITY are pulling the strings.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
it's a business transaction in which either party is free to go and find a better deal if they can.
Such a utilitarian view of human interaction invites the type of callous lawyering that everyone loves to bitch about. If life is really a game, then without a good heart all you got to show for it is nicely dressed up misery at best.
Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
and the same is true on the Democratic side. Obama has promised more guest workers and CBS noted the only thing Congress did while unemployment numbers grew to the highest levels in 6 years (and growing), was try to pass....more guest worker Visas! The reason is those big money lobbyists. The fact that there is no shortage of workers in these advanced professional areas, the fact that 51% of women are getting forced out of these fields, that age discrimination is almost a guarantee, doesn't bother Politicians because they only pay attention to that big buck elite donor class! Look at McCain. He is completely ignoring the testimony of so many labor economists, policy experts who have shown there is actually more people with highly advanced skills who are Americans than jobs and he literally is trying to use as a campaign slogan a completely debunked, job creation lie. Not only has this claim of importing foreign labor creates jobs been completely refuted by economists repeatedly, the only place this theory has been touted is from the damn corporate lobbyists press kits! It's a pure lie. It's incredible and completely wrong, completely not based in fact, theory or statistics. Does that bother McCain? Hell no, he just keeps claiming these lies that come from one source, the corporate lobbyists pushing for more guest worker Visas to advanced their global corporate controlled migration and arbitrage agenda. I'd say we're in huge trouble due to our Government being bought by special interests.
http://blog.noslaves.com
This is not bootstrapping the US economy, it's making the economy worse - much worse. This is causing the US to lose jobs.
This will eventually cause the US to lose it's technological edge.
You can state that this is "to the detriment of the customer", and perhaps in some cases it is, but I would personally prefer the person performing surgery on my heart (or my teeth, or for that matter even my toilet) pass minimum standards of skill and professionalism before doing so. Otherwise, you wind up with all manner of quacks running around claiming to be a "doctor" and raking in the money, while failing to disclose their, uh, rather high failure rate.
We require a license to drive a car because it can be a dangerous thing to do if the operator is not properly skilled and trained to do so. Being a doctor, a pilot, a plumber, or, yes, a programmer, requires significantly more skill than the use of two or three pedals and a steering wheel.
To fight the war on terror, stop being afraid.
So go self-employed. AIUI all you have to do is put a card in local phone boxes with your number and a description of the services you provide.
Displacing US workers does not help our economy. About 80% of h1bs are hired by Indian companies, those companies then contract the workers to US companies. And those Indian contracting companies are making untold billions.
The workers may be paid $15K a year, but the people who hire the h1b contractors pay much more than that. When it is all said and done, the workers cost the US employers about 20% less.
The money that is saved by hiring h1bs goes directly to managerial bonuses.
Be honest, if msft had to pay 20% more for some of it's developers, do you think that would wreck the company? I am very certain it would not.
H-1Bs do not buy homes. The h1b is a temporary work visa. Besides, what kind of a home are you going to buy with $15K?
Rather, h1bs displace American workers who could buy homes, if the Americans had not lost their job to the h1bs.
The pay taxes, but they get all of their social security money back.
I thought the H-1B was a temporary work visa? Is that the same as an immigrant?
Myth: H1-Bs are the "best and brightest"
Reality: If that were true then the typical H1-B would a Nobel prize winning scientist. The truth is, the typical H1-B is an average student, hired right out of college with only a four year degree. The typical H1-B is no more qualified than the US graduates who are not getting jobs. The H1-Bs are just cheaper. And because of the lottery nature of the H1-B process, employers do not even know who they are getting. So how do employers know that they are getting the best and brightest?
Also, isn't it funny that almost all of the "best and brightest" come from countries where people earn as little as $1 a day? If it's really about the "best and brightest" then why aren't there more European H1-Bs?
---
Myth: H1-Bs are needed because of the critical shortage of US technology workers
Reality: Serious academic studies clearly indicate that skills shortage is a myth.
> These studies done at Duke aren't alone in their assessment that there is in fact no skills shortage. They're backed up by other studies conducted by RAND Corporation, The Urban Institute and Stanford University, among others, all of which settle upon the same conclusion: There is no shortage of educated IT workers.
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1081923#PaperDownload
This according to a well researched article at baselinemag.com:
http://tinyurl.com/yoy2rw
---
Myth: H1-Bs do compete unfairly, because H1-Bs are paid the prevailing wage
Reality:
> According to data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics' Occupational Employment Statistics (OES) as the measurement of U.S. wages, and the H-1B LCA disclosure data to measure H-1B wages, 90% of H-1B employers' prevailing wage claims for programmers were below the median U.S. wage for that occupation and location, with 62% of them falling in the bottom 25th percentile of U.S. wages, said Miano [founder of the Programmer's Guild].
> Ron Hira, an assistant professor of public policy at the Rochester Institute of Technology (currently on leave) and a research associate at the Economic Policy Institute, pointed to USCIS's most recent report to Congress, which shows that the medium wage in 2005 for new H-1B computing professionals was just $50,000 -- even lower than the entry-level wages that a newly graduated tech worker with a bachelor's degree and no experience would command.
http://tinyurl.com/4bvwyh
According to the U.S. Citizenship & Immigration Service's (USCIS) annual report to Congress in 2005, the aggregate data for computing professionals lend support to the argument that the practice of paying H-1Bs below-market wages is quite common.
http://www.sharedprosperity.org/bp187.html
H1-Bs are hired at four different skill levels, "4" being the highest. But most H1-Bs are hired for the lowest "1" level jobs - regardless of what kind of work the H1-Bs actually do.
---
Myth: In the USA enrollment in technical disciplines is declining. Proof the USA needs to hire more foreign workers
Reality: This myth is designed to confuse cause and effect. Employers are not forced to hire offshore because enrollment is down. Rather, enrollment is down because of aggressive offshoring by employers. But even with enrollments down, there are still more than enough US workers.
> Due to both outsourcing and insourcing, many young people are concluding that technology is a bad place to invest their time," said Mark Thoma, a professor of economics at the University of Oregon in Eugene.
http://tinyurl.com/4bvwyh
---
Myth: Critics of the H1-B program are xenophobic
Reality: This "argument" is nothing but name calling. These allegations are offered without any s
Nice try bozo. But any idiot can see that you are just playing the race card. My opinion of the h1b program has absolutely nothing what-so-ever to do with race. The h1b is a seriously bad program, and it is entirely un-needed.
Please note, there are about a dozen other other work visa programs.
According this back-door legislation, the shortage of tech workers was so sever, that it constituted a national emergency.
But, according to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics:
August 06, 2008
Almost 50,000 IT positions lost in last 12 months
http://www.infoworld.com/article/08/08/06/Bureau-of-Labor-Statistics-reports-big-drop-in-tech-jobs_1.html
I would personally prefer the person performing surgery on my heart (or my teeth, or for that matter even my toilet) pass minimum standards of skill and professionalism before doing so
The AMA doesn't just set standards, they also set limits on the number of doctors admitted to practice, whether they meet the standards or not.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
First, roofing contractors do not use H1B. H1B is for advanced degree holders, not tradesmen.
Second, for me as a U.S. citizen via H1B track the visa was a way to pay for a chance to join U.S. When I got the contract I had post-grad degree an less than a grand in cache. So I paid with my work over the course of three years and every one was happy. Since then I've paid more in taxes to U.S. and state than probably 99% of U.S. native born citizens ever will. I'm sure this story is not an exception but rather common.
Third, there is going wide spread abuse of H1B program which subverts it original purpose. That is bulk-filing of tens of thousand of application by like 4 big indian-based consultancies, which prevents small enterpreneurs from getting people they want, people who already in U.S., like former interns. This is what extension is about - giving folks who already spent years in U.S. and like it a chance to stay.
Of course an increase in supply will decrease demand. Duh and obviously this judge did not take Highschool economics 101 or use common sense.
If she wants to argue its not the government's job to make competitive salaries then I would agree with her. Something doesn't seem right about this ruling and the fact that federal government already has dirt on her as another slashdotter pointed out might have something to do with it.
Well I am about 100k in college debt and was told to expect to make 12/hr when I graduate! Why did I go back to school? The economic climate is not favorable to employees right now and I would not be surprised if alot of laid of I.T. workers banded together and become more pollitically involved. I majored in B.A. and gave up in I.T. An MCSE, A+ and 2 years experience is not enough to keep a job anymore and I do not want to keep getting outsourced and shafted.
\
CPAs and accountants are going to be outsourced next and lawyers. If you want a lawyer for new York state law you go to New Jersey. Why can't you fly to an Indian lawfirm where they are alot cheaper? All hell will break loose when this happens as most politicians were lawyers.
http://saveie6.com/
Such a utilitarian view of human interaction invites the type of callous lawyering that everyone loves to bitch about.
No, the lawyering comes in when government interferes to override the choices of the parties involved.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Labor unions are great at forcing companies and organizations to adopt above-market wages, featherbedding and other money-wasting practices during boom times. Everyone is happy for awhile, and people buy nice homes in the suburbs and sock away money for their kids' college education. Eventually, the industry gets hit by a recession so deep that the viability of most of the participant companies is threatened, and the game is up. The wages and salaries are way too high and the union can't compromise fast enough (since the members have mortgage payments and other commitments) so there are massive layoffs, factory closings, and other downsizing.
Yet proponents of your idea rely on a heavily tilted to business, union hostile government to have this happen. Otherwise they'd actually have to listen in good faith to unions. They couldn't just wreck the corporation to kill union support. They couldn't flood the ballot with hired yes-men. They couldn't use the judicial system against the unions by instigating violations. They couldn't turn their "secret ballot" into what is simply a business friendly form of card check.
Moral: do not rely on unions to insulate you from the effect of ....
That's mostly due to the effect of Taft-Hartley and "RTW" both existing. Remove both and the balance is restored.
Try again when business can't be adversarial to the idea.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Otherwise...
You declare war on the smallish area and take it over before anyone can jump ship. Or you simply wait in secret cooperation with the country in question and wait for the tax-dodgers to come to one's doorstep.
This is no "global economy". It is still quite national. It is merely that the citizen is penalized for supporting one's country.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
"WTF, do you have a clue what 'slavery' is?"
When someone has a choice between dying/pain/harm and performing work for someone else in exchange for basic subsistence?
emt 377 emt 4
Try being a foreign worker in the United States. No, it is not slave labour. It is more like indentured servitude. Work for crap rates... or work 12 hour days 10 days a week, or we'll let you go and get another work visa worker. Then by good old American law, you can get the fuck out of America within 30 days since you are no longer working. So you can pack up your whole household and find a place to live in your own country many thousands of miles away and get work there too... within 30 days. Bye Bye. Oh, not in a hurry to get kicked out of the country.... come work another 120 hour week. Not slavery... but the U.S. system allows companies to damn near treat visa workers like slaves. Clue in dude... this happens a lot.
-- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
>Is USA using slave labor again to bootstrap it failing economie? Who modded this one "troll"? AC for once is right. There is no wage protection in the US, unlike Europe, Japan and other countries. And don't come telling me that a $6.75/hour minimum wage is wage protection.
Try working as an illegal mexican in a potato/tomato field in California or Idaho (they are in the U.S., by the way) under the scorching sun for $2/hour and then you'll see what's slave labor.
Sounds like my situation... 12/13 hours a day, 6/7 days a week, no overtime because the U.S. doesn't think that you should be getting overtime if you work a seasonal job (no medical insurance either). Add living here for 11 year on a temporary green card that was supposed to have been turned permanent 3 years ago but they magically keep losing the file and every 6 months I have to drive 10 hours to get an extension and when I re-enter the U.S. after visiting my family in Italy I get interrogated for an hour and treated as if I was coming straight from Afghanistan with Bin Laden's passport. And I wish it was a joke...
The purpose is to allow employers to get the talent they need when it's not available in this country.
The problem is that H1-B employee's are willing to work for considerably less than the prevailing wage in this country, in addition the restrictions on the H1-B visa allows predatory employers to abuse the employee.
The solution as I see it is to have very broad limits on the number of H1-B's but to strictly enforce a salary of 10% over the prevailing wage in this country. Therefor they can get the talent they need, but it will cost them extra. Lets the employer get what they need but gives them a real incentive to seek local talent.
Ward
. Silence! Be thankful thy species is unpalatable! .
I can attest as an immigrant myself. Long wait for getting appointment at consular offices. Being treated like shit on port of entry. 5-6 years for permanent residence. And even for small things like getting you passport stamped you have to go through hell. A bunch of my close friends have abandoned the US green card system, & moved to Canada. I have some news for you, Indians are no longer vying for jobs in US anymore. Rather US companies are going to India in hordes.
In Thailand we get one week to get out of the country. Just go to Mexico and get a tourist visa, ya scab. Or get an extension, or find a new job... There are only 7 days in a week, btw. Why do you fly to America and work for these companies then if it's so bad? If they lied about the working conditions and pay, you have every right to sue them in small claims court. It costs about $25 to file and a day off work for the hearing...
Since businesses are reluctant to sign on to the TSA's latest invasion of privacy, they're resorting to bribery. If your business wants to hire foreign workers at bargain basement prices, you need to sign up for the DHS program. Apparently the DHS's charter is so broad that they can tinker with stuff like this if they pretend it's some kind of "emergency". The DHS has surpassed even the IRS as the most out-of-control government agency.
Remember, the DHS is in the business of snooping. If the economy gets wrecked in the process, well, that's someone else's job.
===== Murphy's Law is recursive. =====
How did this person ever become a judge if she's too stupid to understand something as basic as The Law of Supply and Demand? Or too many workers chasing after too few jobs?
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Protectionism closes off the economy. Enforces the Malthusian principle.
Drop the walls and the air can circulate again. It really is that simple, although the first few years are a little bad because the closed borders on our part has been encouraging the economic equivalent of air pollution on the part of our neighbors.
The solution, however, is to go much farther. Take the jobs to them, not to make a profit, but to stimulate their economies, their industries, and their technologies. If we want a level playing field, we have the means to level the field.
Maybe we have to do without the SUVs, but SUVs were a bad idea anyway.
Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
Not slavery... but the U.S. system allows companies to damn near treat visa workers like slaves. Clue in dude... this happens a lot.
Don't let the door bump you in the ass on the way out! If it sucks, go home. You don't have to quit before getting a new job and making plans to move the family back wherever you came from.
It's sad that people actually want to whine about being allowed to go to another country and take jobs that would otherwise go to locals. The problem lies in the simple fact that these people are welcome here at all, not the fact that they are considered discount labor by employers.
And no, they aren't more skilled, harder workers, etc than the local workforce, they are simply cheaper, temporary labor the company can get away with not committing to like they would a normal worker.
Can they leave? Will the cops make them go back to the job if they do?
They're not slaves, QED.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Try telling that to Microsoft.
An auction means those wanting H1Bs win if they offer the highest salary to the worker, not to the government: http://numen.wordpress.com/2008/03/18/h1b-auction/
What is happening to the tech jobs is exactly what happened to the blue collar jobs. Basically, using the amorphous excuse of emergency, they are doing an end run around a whole host of laws to protect workers.
The problem is that there is a downward spiral. There is no political party to champion the rights of the people dispossessed by these abuses. The Republicans give lip service to immigration reform but then on a daily basis blatantly abuse the immigration system and refuse to enforce its rules, or, as is the case here, clearly thwart the letter and spirit of the law by declaring an emergency to allow outsiders whilst many an unemployed American tech is left dangling without a safety net (ie. workable unemployment insurance system or public assistance).
But what of the Democrats? They bemoan any concern about immigration abuse as racism. Strangely, while the democratic backbone including the stalwarts of union workers have been eroded by these policies, the leadership doesn't give a damn and hides behind a false shield of racism. But note that these Democratic leaders are flush in money from the corporate interests that benefit from undercutting workers rights. As are Republican leaders.
Basically, they have screwed over much larger and more politically powerful constituencies with the same lame Good Cop/ Bad Cop routine since the Reagan era. I think you're all screwed.
Good luck finding a judge willing to tackle this immigration double whammy. I've tried to use the Immigration RICO provisions and had them thrown in my face by the judiciary. It does not matter what the law says, judges on both sides of the political spectrum will work to maintain the illusion that immigration has no effect on American job opportunities.
This isn't "embracing change"--it's deliberate sabotage and looting of the vast wealth of this country, specifically of the now-vanishing middle class because you all have bought into this libertarian econcomic nonsense that you'll do better if you stand alone.
What sucking sound? Seriously, where is the sucking sound that Ross Perot talked about. Right off the wheel, NAFTA has resulted in an enormous gain in trade but right now US trade between US and its NAFTA partners is largely in balance when energy is excluded. Now -that- would not be taking place but in the USA we are not allowed to develop energy resources, but even in left wing Canada, they have no problem turning Alberta into the moon to get at oil sands.
Elsewhere, you can see that over the last few years, US exports are -increasing- rather than decreasing. America right now is actually manufacturing -more than it ever has-.
And, of course I can move from one market freely to another. That's what the internet is for. And, sure, if I wanted to go to India or to China, I most certainly could do that.
Secondly, everyone keeps talking about the vanishing middle class, but, at the same time, it is said that the America's biggest problems are that the middle class seems to have purchased numerous trucks, cars, a mountain of food. I just do not understand the doublethink of the American left that says on one hand that Americans are too poor and are getting ripped off, and then, at the same time, are looting the world through unjust consumption of its natural resources. Can we have a consistent story?
I mean, did the American middle class, forty years ago, have too much to eat, multiple personal trucks, houses exceeding 2500 square feet, multiple flat panel tvs, computers, video game consoles, designer clothes imported all over the world, all while having meat available to eat not just a few times a day, but, for every meal that there is. This is unheard of wealth.
By contrast, the best the left wing is going to give us is total poverty. They want us to have less food, less energy, smaller houses, less cars, less imported products. I mean, where does having "less" of everything, translate into "more" wealth.
Help me out, because, I'm drawing a blank on that one.
This is my sig.
And it sounds like you are a self-loathing European AC. Nice to have more fans. =)
"It isn't right, but it is what it is:)"
I agree, you are a moron.
Is anyone else bothered that this organization (which I've never heard of) seems to be presenting itself as speaking for programmers in general? I'm far more disturbed by them presuming to speak for me than I am by anything related to immigration policy.
Of course the customer isn't my property. I am simply stating that putting in place service requirements can be good for the customer (they know what they are getting), and good for the providers (it stabilizes the market).
It already happens in other industries (taxi, medical, etc.). FYI - why is accreditation required to deliver the results of a medical instrument, and yet NOT required when programming the same instrument? Even when we know that some medical instruments have killed patients.
Just another "Cubible(sic) Joe" 2 17 3061