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Iran Announces Manned Space Mission Plans
Lucas123 writes "After Iran's first attempt to launch a satellite on Sunday fell noticeably short of the Earth's atmosphere (though Iran claimed it made it into orbit), government officials stated they intend to put a man into space within 10 years. The long-range ballistic technology used to put satellites into space can also be used for launching weapons. Iran says it has no intention to use the technology for launching nuclear warheads."
sure they can put a man into space, the problem has always been to get them back down safely once up there. When will they be able to do that?
-- All this knowledge is giving me a raging brainer.
with a budget of $50 and use a hedgehog as a proof of concept to secure further funding.
One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
I thought we neutralized the ICBM boogey man with our missile defense stuff. Isn't that why Russia's pissed at Poland right now?
"After Iran's first attempt to launch a satellite on Sunday fell noticeably short of the Earth's atmosphere"
And we all know how hard it is to reach the Earth's atmosphere!
I heard that zimbabwe planed to do that once too. We all know what became of that.
Supporting World Peace Through Nuclear Pacification
Iran says it has no intention to use the technology for launching nuclear warheads."
Yeah, suuuuuuuure you won't.
The ballistic missiles? Nah, they're just launch vehicles. And the nuclear material? It's just for power plants. We really need these things, since we have so little power-generating natural resources, and such a booming commercial satellite launching industry.
This country has got CREDIBILITY!
"After Iran's first attempt to launch a satellite on Sunday fell noticeably short of the Earth's atmosphere"
And we all know how hard it is to reach the Earth's atmosphere!
"No, no, no, point UP, stupid!"
is just for a peaceful (and extremely expensive) nuclear power program. Not that I blame them.
Japanese scientist: Technically, sir, tomatoes are fags. Military scientist: He means fruits.
Will there be a Iranian Space Information Minister to tell us about all the wonderful things happening in the space program?
"Our cosmonauts have reported to have seen from space that Italy looks like the boot of Allah striking the Zionist regime. Soon we will harvest the moon for cheese and will no longer rely on the vile cartoon-drawing Danish."
Now mods... before you mod me flamebait, first consider this: could I possibly be trolling, instead?
Just another way to say "we are really not trying to improve our missile technology." then one day they will all of a sudden have a intercontinental missiles, with a look what we found expression on their face.
not good.
love the taste, hate the texture
they intended to bring him back? I mean, its a fair question considering how much value Iran puts on a human life after all,
The long-range ballistic technology used to put satellites into space can also be used for launching weapons. Iran says it has no intention to use the technology for launching nuclear warheads."
It could also be used to deliver a payload of the following things to the earth from orbit
- Ice Cream
- Ninja Stars
- Signed copies of Limbo of the Lost or Daikatana
You think that we could leave the nefarious plans, no matter how obvious, up to the readers? Sheesh!
The easiest way to counter propaganda - from any nation, not just Iran - is to take this attitude:
"k, now do it."
despite all the propaganda, I really don't see the Iranians ever developing a nuclear weapons programs as it will ultimately work against them. They will never be able to match their arsenal to that of US or UK or France or Russia or Israel. Maybe they really want to use nuclear energy for power generation as their population is exploding, creating more demand for energy (at this time they import more than %40 of the gasoline they need for domestic consumption and have to burn fuel to generate electricity). and maybe they do want to have a space program without diverting the technology for use in ICBMs.
Single page link.
Greasemonkey script to do that automatically.
That wouldn't be ironic. That would simply be consequences.
And no coincidence. The Bush dynasty has been working closely with Iran, arming it, even protecting AQ Khan (the Pakistani whose stolen nuke secrets started the Iranian, N Korean and Libyan nuke projects). That's why the "Iran" in "Iran/Contra" was always the worst part of that traitorous operation out of Oliver North's White House basement office. And why the resumes of the Bush Jr "brain trust" are full of "Iran/Contra" experience.
--
make install -not war
A small child can be trained on video games and then sealed into the warhead's reentry vehicle to steer it down to its target. Won't add too much weight, and it's probably cheaper to develop than an equivalent electronic guidance package, given the flexibility and intelligence of the control module. A culture of martyrdom gives Iran some interesting design options.
Does anyone else get the impression that Iran doesn't really want to fight anyone, they just want to get other country's goats?
Like first they had a nuclear program and Bush flipped shit, so now they are going into space to see how much more angry they can make him.
"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." - Pablo Picasso
And Iran, Iran so far aw... crap.
"I don't have to think. I only have to do it. The results are always perfect, but that's old news." - Meat Puppets
So how did Iran - apparently a country containing only religious nutbags, comic book villains, and the lost apprentices of the former Iraqi Intelligence Ministry, according to the news - manage to successfully launch rocket capable of carrying a satellite while Space-X os 0-for-3?
Maybe we should be a little concerned...
A-Bomb
Services for the astronaut to be held on February 16th.
Get out the sandpaper and white glue space cadets, it's
The Gee-Hod!.
And maybe the tooth fairy and the Easter bunny are real too....
Iran says it has no intention to use the technology for launching nuclear warheads
"No, we are not threatening anybody with weapons; we just want to help out with the worldwide energy crisis. We plan to use the missiles for donating nuclear reactors to Tel Aviv and Washington, DC."
shit man, we will have flying cars in about 5 years. all they have to do is buy one and drive it straight up.
They will never be able to match their arsenal to that of US or UK or France or Russia or Israel
They don't have to match our arsenal. All they need to be able to do is reach a major city in any one of the countries you mentioned. Yeah, we could obliterate them (to borrow a phrase from Hillary Clinton) if they hit us but would we be willing to go to war with them in the first place if it was going to cost us New York City or Washington?
We need a workable missile defense technology.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
mass destruction, a non-democratic theocracy and oil. I can't possibly see what could go wrong.
They will never be able to match their arsenal to that of US or UK or France or Russia or Israel.
They don't care. That is the problem. The doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) that kept the peace (at least relatively, proxy wars were still fought in a limited fashion but only up to a point) for nearly fifty (50) years during the Cold War was based upon one simple notion: the other side might no like us but at least they are not crazy OR in the words of our late great President John F. Kennedy,
"For in the final analysis, our most basic common link, is that we all inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's futures, and we are all mortal."
Iran is a theocracy officially governed by religion which doesn't cherish the future of its children (instead it glorifies suicide bombing) and believes in immortality with Allah and 70 virgins in heaven. Now you begin to see why allowing such people to have even one bomb is such a concern. There is more than an outside chance that they might choose to use their bomb against Israel or the United States or Europe regardless of the consequences (i.e. in their minds they all die in the retaliatory strike and go to their reward of 70 virgins). Religion and powerful weapons are and have always been a dangerous mix.
you knew anything about Iran, or its people? Oh I guess from your comment you pretty well summarized your ignorance, and borderline racism fairly well. Sorry, my mistake.
I hope people don't forget, (I'm talking to YOU Slashdot), how everybody bought into the whole propaganda push to invade Iraq. "Cakewalk" "War over in Ten Weeks" "WMD's"
People around here were salivating with images of Command & Conquer tanks dancing in their heads and I got slammed for saying, "Uh, this is going to be a quagmire, it's going to be incredibly expensive and the justification for this war is thin to the point of not even being there." --And that was before all the lies and manipulations became public.
The Bush gang are sick war-hawks eager to create conditions for a world-wide police state where massive amounts of the world population can be culled, oil profits can be had by a very small few, war profits can be had by a very small few, and opium profits can by maintained. These wars are about greed and control, and they have nothing to do with the stated rationalizations and these stupid stories about, "Oooh, Iran is Sooo ScArY". Don't get fooled again!
But most of you will, and the economy will tank even worse than it already has, and many of you will be starving in concentration camps before the next five years are out. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm usually not. Sorry. Bush blew up frogs with firecrackers before going on to become a coke-head. He's a psychopath, and he'll smile and be all cuddly as he continues to set the world on fire.
You think you've seen the story and know the details, but the investigations continue with new data rising to the top. Here's one of the latest on 9-11.
-FL
Iran's first attempt to launch a satellite on Sunday fell noticeably short of the Earth's atmosphere
Well, Iran is from another planet, so I could see how getting to Earth could be a little difficult for them. Let's hope they fail.
Maybe. Or it's Government that's feels continually threatened by Western powers and Israel, it finds it's control continually slipping among the populace, worried about their enemy to the South will become more of a threat now that it's an American ally, a leadership that's embolden by Islamic militancy to stand up to the Great Satan, and a Government that fears that unless it goes nuclear, it will never be treated with the respect, no reverence, it thinks it deserves from the International Community.
No, it will work for them by being a deterrent to Israel (and by extension the U.S.) with its nuclear armament. It will be the same situation as exists between the U.S. and Russia with one vital difference: when Iran obtains nuclear weapons, it can hold the oil fields of the entire Middle East hostage if the U.S., or Israel, decides to attack it.
And before someone asks the obvious question, "What's to stop them from holding the oil fields hostage regardless of being attacked?", there would be no benefit to threaten the oil fields other than to drive up the cost of oil. However, as a poster up the way has already pointed out, Iran imports roughly 40% of its gasoline. Thus, any benefit from higher oil prices would be negated by the higher gas prices.
We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
You knew what I meant.
I love when anonymous sources still feel the need to phrase their responses as government PR drones would.
Source: "It could be characterized as a dramatic failure."
The news would be more entertaining if journalists stopped kidding themselves and just geared everything to real lowest common denominator: the NASCAR fans.
Translation: "Man it took off like a rabid 'coon on fire then KABOOM like somebody shot it in the face with a Howitzer! (But listen, I never said nothin')."
This headline screams "goodluckwiththat" as an additional tag.
they will be the first country to actually an astrounaut in poland or wherever their rocket falls before reaching orbit.
-- Por mais que eu ande no vale das trevas e da morte, meu PowerMac G4 Não Travará!!!
"And we all know how hard it is to reach the Earth's atmosphere!"
Even Martians don't have a problem reaching our atmosphere.
Why is it every time Iran is mentioned in the mass media, that 'Nuclear weapons' has to be included?? Seems like we're just awaiting the day that they do something even remotely close to that, so we can say "SEE?? I TOLD YOU SO!"
Jeez. Just let them go to the moon already. Not like we don't have an arsenal of nukes pointed in their direction anyway. Why are we any better? Because we already *have* them?
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
oy vey!
Is it any wonder that they are doing this? I'm sure this has been in the works, but with what Russia is doing, how many things can the US be a watch dog on? I'm sorry world...but at some point y'all have to be concerned too...can't just rely on the US...and you shouldn't because by evidence of the Iraq War, we aren't always (or even close to) right.
"Only one thing, is impossible for god: to find any sense in any copyright law on the planet." Mark Twain
I enjoy learning about religions. The various traditions and such. And one of the fascinating aspects is translating certain rules, laws, customs, etc into space. Presumably Iran, as an Islamic republic, will send devout Muslims into space and will have to answer some interesting questions. For instance, if you orbit the earth every 90 minutes, you experience a very short day. If you are Muslim, how does that effect praying 5 times a day (every 18 minutes!). And what about direction? If anyone has any serious thoughts, I'm curious hear them. In a related vein, can devout Jews use thrusters (light a fire) on the Sabbath?
The world is made by those who show up for the job.
This space program really will be a hoax. I'm sure they have their best photoshop monkeys on it as we speak.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Yeah, just like how having only a few nuclear weapons had absolutely no benefit to North Korea.
Oh wait ...
I am officially gone from
despite all the propaganda, I really don't see the Iranians ever developing a nuclear weapons programs as it will ultimately work against them. They will never be able to match their arsenal to that of US or UK or France or Russia or Israel.
You miss the point of having a nuclear arsenal. Any country that is developing a nuclear payload deliverable by missile is no longer trying to compete in a real war.
Loosely, you can think of Iran like Lorena Bobbit. Yeah, most of us could take her in a street fight. She's not very big or strong. But when she's got a knife in one hand and your dick in the other, all of a sudden it matters a whole lot less.
All this does is give them an legit excuse to build a large ICBM sized rocket without Israel and the US bombing them. Quite a smart move really.
despite all the propaganda, I really don't see the Iranians ever developing a nuclear weapons programs as it will ultimately work against them. They will never be able to match their arsenal to that of US or UK or France or Russia or Israel.
They don't need to match arsenals. All they need is one (on a rotating basis, as they decay quickly). Read up on MAD.
It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
Without saying more than I can, we are far from "ignoring" Iran. If anything we are spending more resources in Iran than Iraq, you just don't hear about it in the useless US media.
On a side note, having a democratic ally in the middle east will be the best weapon possible against Iran.
To get a turban inside of a space helmet.
To do your Salat (traditional Muslim prayers) in zero gravity.
In space no one can hear you explode.
I killed da wabbit -Elmer Fudd
Why develop (nuclear weapons/manned space flight/insert idea here) when you can photoshop an image and claim you did?
"Going to war without the French is like going deer hunting without your accordion." ~General Norman Schwarzkopf
> fell noticeably short of the Earth's atmosphere
it missed atmo? that's quite an accomplishment for a ground launch. =P
http://kered.org
until we get to see the footage of their fake moon landing. I hope it is better than ours since they have the advantage of digital technology.
Voting them all out of office, now that's change I can believe in.
Yep, religion and powerful weapons surely are a bad mix... look at what's done in the name of Jesus by our leaders :'(
WTF planet was Iran launching this thing from, anyway?
Eloi are stupid, throw morlocks at them!
Yes, they are want to get the missile technology and it has nothing to do with nuclear warfare. Honest! And the same applies to the shipments of boxes of Defcon ( http://www.introversion.co.uk/defcon/about/index.html ) that the Iranian government plans to distribute in the military
I think you are confusing all muslims with fundamentalists. The virgins in heaven dogma exists in extreme sects just like some white supremists groups are sects of christianity. Painting everyone with such broad strokes spoils the painting.
Will Iran make nuclear weapons? Only time will tell. It's hard to justify who can and can't have such weapons when the palying field is so uneven. Why can some countries have them and some not? Why are some nations on a treaty and some not? The world would likely be a better place if no one had nuclear weapons. Howerver, you can't have countries with weapons telling those without that they can never have them.
UNIX/Linux Consulting
Yup. Now combine this with the fact that if Iraq had actually had nuclear-tipped ICMBs, the USA would not have attacked it, and you have
a) a very powerful incentive for Iran to have nuclear missiles for self-preservation
b) less of a self-preservation instinct than other nuclear nations that came before
c) a lot of powerful Iranians who are very pissed at certain segments of the world population
All of this means that there isn't shit anyone can do to stop Iran from getting nuclear weapons (short of turning it into a giant glass parking lot), and that Iran will be far more dangerous than Iraq ever was. Thanks, Bush and Co. There are so many things wrong with invading Iraq that that decision alone - regardless of how well anything else turns out - will cement Bush's place in history as worst president ever.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
Yeah, well in Argentina the president we had around 1994 (Carlos Menem) announced we would be traveling to Japan through the stratosphere... guess if that's true.
Yeah. Would you choose a neurosurgeon who pokes around people's brains in his spare time? I wouldn't.
Jihadinaut?
Islamonaut?
Muslimnaut?
Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...
And do they get 72 virgins just like other people who blow themselves up?
Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...
Its IRAN:
I'm sure they can find a young man who doesn't mind being the 1st martyr in space.
are worried that Iran "might" attack someone once they get their space program off the ground yet you live in a country that is already destroying other nation in the name of democracy and freedom.
by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
I heard there is some writing/scripture that if men make it to the moon then Islam will end.
Is this true?
If it is maybe the space program can end the war on terror?
That would be awesome!!!!!
Wheeeeee!!!!
Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...
"Only time will tell. It's hard to justify who can and can't have such weapons when the palying field is so uneven. Why can some countries have them and some not?"
Why would it be in the West's interests to allow this? This is how power in the world works. If you have it first, you get to dictate who gets it next. There is no "fair" in this scenario.
Until they are our puppets and do our bidding and stop threatening our friends, we won't let them play our game. That's how the world works!
"If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, A hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer
Bullshit. It is completely different thing to use suicide attacks in warfare or terrorism and to commit a national suicide.
We heard this same crap about Chinese and Russians. You know, they're not real people, they're not thinking like us etc. etc. etc.
The leaders of Iran are very much interested in maximizing their well-being in this world. And filling up their pockets in the process. Most of Iran's theocrats are also businessmen. Christians are not the only hypocrites.
Heck, don't bother with Iran.
Musharriff just resigned. Pakistan isn't *all* fundamentalist, but there's a split in that country far worse than the red vs blue split in the US. Let it tip the wrong way, and don't forget that hard-core fundamentalists (of ANY stripe, Islamist, Christian, what have you) are willing to do practically anything, especially to infidels, and we won't have to wait for nuclear development, because Pakistan already has warheads, missiles, and more refined material.
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
Iran is a theocracy officially governed by religion which doesn't cherish the future of its children
Amazing how such virulent hate for a religion is modded "Insightful". Please mods, mod entire post for its entirety, and not just 50% that you agree with.
My captcha was "goaded". How fitting.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Sorry for pointing out it all seems very suspicious for a country with so many problems to focus all their efforts on "space travel" and "nuclear power".
I actually chuckled when I read the title.
1. Drill a lot of oil.
2. Send iranians into space.
3. ???????
4 Prophet!!!
If you quote this signature there'll be 72 copies of Windows ME waiting for you in Heaven.
The idea of Iran as a fanatical theocracy is no longer accurate. It was, right after they threw out the Shah, but now it's a nation run by a bunch of old men who won't do anything to jeopardize their positions of power (sound famailiar?). The "revolutionary" rhetoric is just a political tool. See "communist" China for a similar case.
The one we have to worry about is Pakistan. If things go pear-shaped over there, odds are fairly good the nukes will wind up in the hands of true first-generation fanatics, young men who spend a lot of time daydreaming about those 70 virgins. The smarter ones will also realize that their odds of governing the country and retaining control of functioning nukes for any length of time are quite limited. Then it's either "use it or lose it", or just sell it to the highest bidder on the black market.
The Quran says something like "these words will be valid until man touches the moon", or something like that. Probably that was meant to say those words were eternal, but actually it makes some sort of sense: a sufficiently advanced technology makes many religious commandments obsolete.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Shah-nukeIran.jpg
Do we have to protect the ISS from suicide bombers now?
Danish start their own nuclear programme, following the election of a cheese-protectionist government.
The newly elected minister of state was heard chanting "The cheese must flow" in the narrow corridors of Christiansborg.
If you quote this signature there'll be 72 copies of Windows ME waiting for you in Heaven.
I would offer that MAD doesn't apply to Iran. The leaders are sufficiently distanced from the population at large that it very likely doesn't not concern them one bit if a large fraction of the population died in a retalitory strike.
If Iran believed they could attack Israel and wipe out 30% of their population and suffer a loss of 50% of their population in return, I believe they would do it. This is completely foreign to most people, as their government would not consider that a reasonable exchange. I don't think it has anything to do with the religion of the population either - you don't need a religion to see that the leaders in Iran are sufficiently disconnected from the population to write a bunch of them off.
This begs the question - if an Iranian astronaut dies because they can't bring him down successfully, does he still get his 40 virgins?
No - if he gets stuck in space he might find just one virgin a lot more useful...assuming this isn't how Iran is planning to get him into space in the first place!
Don't be silly. Your argument does not even apply to fundamentalists/extremists (such as the khomenei, bin laden..etc). Why haven't the chief heads of al-qaeda waged an all out suicidal war in the open against the western soldiers? Why hasn't bin laden blown himself up to go to heaven and be with allah and the beautiful virgins forever? Why didn't the Iranians cross over into Iraq and do the same? That is the ultimate goal, right?
If it was as simple as you state, and the Persians think the way you think they do, they would have already attacked the US and Israel. By your logic, they don't need a nuclear bomb, they just want provoke war and die in the consequences, and they can do that very easily.
The truth is they're just talking, because tough talk is what keeps them in power (kind of like over here in the good old USA). Gone are the days of conquest in the name of spreading religion. Now it's mostly madmen who perceive themselves as saviors, unemployed and desperate young men who believe them (terrorist recruits), and dictators trying to stay in power. The muslims right now should be the least of our worries.
NYC and DC were already 'sacrificed' to go to war with Iraq. Why not sacrifice another city like Newark or Trenton? Or, let's make it fair by spreading the sacrifice around the continent. How about LA? Now there's a city that needs sacrificing...
The reason Iran want long range missiles and in the longer run nukes is the US and Israel. Without them running around making threats about "using any force nessecary" Iran coldnt care less. Face it Cowboys, you are the new Russia.
HTTP/1.1 400
I'm not even going to argue with your characterization of Muslims. There are certainly some that more or less fit your description, and while I may think they are an extremely small percentage, that isn't the point.
The point is, no matter how crazy and suicidal you imagine the average Iranian, their leaders certainly are neither. Khamenei, Ahmadinejad, and all the ruling clerics didn't go to the trouble to acquire all that power just to lose it in a nuclear blast over Tehran. Like all politicians, whether superficially religious or not, they're after power and control not a glorious death. Who is it that you think goes on the suicide bombing missions? It ain't the leaders, it's the grunts. The leaders want to stay home and be safe and gain more wealth and power. Promises of virgins are for the ones who don't have anything better to look forward to in this life.
So what I'm saying is, MAD will work, just like it worked against the Russians. Iran's leaders aren't crazy, and they're actually quite intelligent. Losing the Islamic Republic is not acceptable to them. They will not launch a preemptive nuclear strike, because they know that no matter what they accomplished in that strike they would be annihilated, Iran would be destroyed, and all their plans and schemes would be for naught. So unless our or Israeli nukes are in the air, or tanks are rolling over the border, then they aren't going to use their bomb.
No, the fact is that MAD will work, and that's why Iran wants the bomb. Because MAD works both ways, and once they have the bomb then they get to join the Nobody Fucks With You Country Club. Those neo-con dreams of invading Iran would be out the window, permanently. And at that point, they can work on whatever their regional ambitions for their non-nuclear neighbors are, and not have to worry about a U.S. or other world power response more severe than our response to Russia in Georgia.
That's plenty of reason to not want Iran to go nuclear. You don't need to imagine a mushroom cloud in NYC or Tel Aviv (which won't happen) to be concerned.
The enemies of Democracy are
it shouldn't be hard at all. Just take some stock Hubble photos, some sharp looking spacesuits, lasso, clone, publish! I bet money they're the first to Mars, too.
You know at one time Iran had the only democraticly elected secular government in the area. Unfortunatly they ran afoul of the oil companies. Something about wanting a proper return for their natural resources. Anyway this democratic secular governemt was overthrown in a US/UK backed coup and a dictator who was nice to the oil companies was installed. Which leads us to today. If the west would just keep their noses out of everybodies business the world would be so much better off. By the way the same applies to Afganistan, only now we have a real mess to clean up.
Undetectable Steganography? Yep, there's an app fo
The Persian empire was one THE world superpower. Now it isn't, which clearly bothers most Iranians I have known. The Western powers send a clear signal that in order to be respected as a nation in negotiations or otherwise, you must have a nuclear weapon -- of course the Iranians want a weapon of their own! From their point of view, they want to retake their place as a dominant world superpower, and never again be belittled or have their point of view ignored by the west. That doesn't mean they intend to actually ever USE a nuclear weapon. There has only been one nation in history insane enough to actually use a nuclear weapon...
Wow. Touched a nerve there, didn't I?
If I were a troll, (sorry folks, I'm not. I just speak what I think as honestly as I can), then I guess I found the magic formula for 'piss everybody off'.
You can always tell when you're getting a bit too close to some sensitive mark when all the knee-jerkers jump on you. --Keeping in mind, this isn't about abortion, or religion or privacy, or any such typical and fairly normal subject of rational debate. This is about government corruption and psychopathy, the truths of which are virtually impossible to argue against when the data is presented, which is why, you'll notice, that few of the comments seen thus far have any content except exclamations of ridicule and emotional disagreement with zero content. I've even read a few people trying to claim that tormenting small animals is normal behavior!!
The reactions I got when trying to point out the flaws with the, then-impending war with Iraq were similarly charged and light-weight.
Take note, my friends! Things bode ill if such comments are any indicator of the broad public mind. Watch that film I linked to in the parent post. It's just one film, but it would be constructive if you wish to disagree to comment on actual points made there, as it would give us a common point of reference to work from rather than our having to endure more of this aimless complaining.
-FL
cartoon with commentary from 2005.
.... but would we be willing to go to war with them in the first place if it was going to cost us New York City or Washington?
Depends. What time of day, and what day of the week?
I think you are confusing all muslims with fundamentalists.
Not at all. However, what matters is not necessarily the people of a country but who has the power to make decisions or to "push the button" in this case. In Iran that power belongs (presumably) to the Ayatollahs and the supreme religious council who are fully (or at least outwardly so) behind their (I say their because basically the Ayatollahs and supreme council chooses the president and the government in Iran because they control with absolute veto who does and does not stand for office on the ballots. The elections are merely a formality in Iran, either candidate was pre-approved by the Ayatollahs and the supreme council) President. So you can bet that just about any official statement by the President or any other significant Iranian official has the full backing of the Ayatollahs unless they specifically say otherwise, which they have rarely done in practice so as to present a unified front. So when the President says, "I am going to wipe Israel off the map" then we in the West must take that as a credible and serious threat. The problem with Iran is that the fundamentalists are the ones in power so their position is the one that counts as far as the official policy of Iran is concerned. That is why we must take their threats and actions seriously because they have shown that they have the means (or are fast acquiring them), motive, and will to make good on their threats (which they have done in the past on numerous occasions).
It's hard to justify who can and can't have such weapons when the palying field is so uneven. Why can some countries have them and some not? Why are some nations on a treaty and some not? The world would likely be a better place if no one had nuclear weapons. Howerver, you can't have countries with weapons telling those without that they can never have them.
I agree. Ideally, nobody would have them, but what began with such high hopes, namely the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty has collapsed into a nuclear club status quo to the long term detriment IMHO of the human race. I think that it is fair to say that the United States and George W Bush especially share a portion of the blame for this (not all, but a substantial portion). I know that it is not an excuse, but practically speaking the hope that nuclear weapons would someday no longer menace mankind was and is unrealistic. The best that we can probably hope for is to control the status quo and if that means a bit of "unfairness" (i.e. Iran cannot have nukes) then so be it. They have been offered reasonable alternatives and guarantees (things which Iraq and Saddam were never offered or abandoned of their own free will) of security and respect for their sovereignty by the rest of the world IF they would just be reasonable...unfortunately they (the Iranians) have chosen to be unreasonable.
If Iran had nuclear weapons, those suicide bombers would be carrying them. Remember a small nuke is portable by a single person. Or they put it in a car/van/truck and just drive it into a town. Stopping Iran (the current government of Iran) from getting nuclear weapons is going to happen.
The world, as much as countries hate each other, should realize the certain governments should never have weapons that could wipe other countries from the planet. As bad as the US is, it hasn't used the current strength nuclear bombs in any war/conflict. The current nuclear bombs (H bomb) make the WWII bombs look like firecrackers. If the US used nukes all the time, how long would A) the Iraq war lasted? If 1/2 or more of the population of the country was killed in matter of weeks, or B) the entire planet was a radioactive wasteland from a nuclear WWIII happening?
but would we be willing to go to war with them in the first place if it was going to cost us New York City or Washington?
Uh, yeah, you might want to pick two other cities there to make your point to anyone not living in those cities. ;-)
The leaders do not want to die. And they have convinced many young (often no to educated) to die for them. That way they get to continuing to spread the word and recruit more people to die for them.
"persecuted and murdered by the Christians in Europe"
"Hitler and the rest of WWII era Christians in Germany"
They were persecuted by antisemites, and Christian != antisemite.
Nevertheless, your argument, shorn of its antichristianism, can be used by Palestinians to justify their desire to be free from the jewish persecution they have endured.
All of that could true (i'm not going to get into the details of your delusional post)
Delusional, but it could all be true? Hm. Don't you find that a bit dyslexic? If you are going to toss about a term like, 'Delusional', you'll have to back that up because with the rest of your 'insightful' post, you are playing very strongly into the propaganda in a very predictable way.
We would benefit from paying close attention to our reactions today because you and others are broadcasting exactly the same kinds of patterns we saw in Slashdotters (and most other people in the West), during the lead-up to war in Iraq, which I don't think any rational person can claim has improved the world. The Bill O'Riellys and Joe Scarboroughs of the world are not rational people, in case you are wondering what I use as my benchmark for 'rational'.
-FL
And the only way that that's going to happen is by glassifying Iran. Are you willing to go that route? Are you sure?
Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
I hope people don't forget, (I'm talking to YOU Slashdot), how everybody bought into the whole propaganda push to invade Iraq. "Cakewalk" "War over in Ten Weeks" "WMD's"
People around here were salivating with images of Command & Conquer tanks dancing in their heads and I got slammed for saying, "Uh, this is going to be a quagmire, it's going to be incredibly expensive and the justification for this war is thin to the point of not even being there." --And that was before all the lies and manipulations became public.
The Bush gang are sick war-hawks eager to create conditions for a world-wide police state where massive amounts of the world population can be culled, oil profits can be had by a very small few, war profits can be had by a very small few, and opium profits can by maintained. These wars are about greed and control, and they have nothing to do with the stated rationalizations and these stupid stories about, "Oooh, Iran is Sooo ScArY". Don't get fooled again!
But most of you will, and the economy will tank even worse than it already has, and many people will be starving in concentration camps before the next five years are out. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm usually not. Sorry. Bush blew up frogs with firecrackers before going on to become a coke-head. He's a psychopath, and he'll smile and be all cuddly as he continues to set the world on fire.
You think you've seen the story and know the details, but the investigations continue with new data rising to the top. This is one of the latest on 9-11.
-FL
Of course, the correct answer to all off these complicated problems, is to grow up and stop making convoluted interpretations of ancient superstitions written down by simple tribes who didn't know any better.
This applies to Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jehovas, etc. The whole lot.
There is no deterrence element in being able to deliver a nuke by UPS.
Finally a note to fellow Slashdotters. Muslims are actually encouraged to interpret the Islamic laws by themselves provided they have good background knowledge. This is why there are actually many "Schools of Jurispudence" or "Mazhab" where there are differences in interpretation of the Quran and Hadith. While there are congresses of learned clerics (ulama) you can (personally at least) choose to ignore their interpretation. Therefore, it is wrong to lump all Muslims as a monolithic group.
Now, now. The Iranian regime only encourages Arab children in other countries to become martyrs for Allah. You don't see them sending too many of their own people to Hamas or Hizballah, do you?
Anyway, we can always threaten to glass Mecca. That'll shut up any Muslim regime.
This is great. I also think it will be great if Iran gets ICBM capability. The US will think twice before occupying countries in the Middle East and spending $2B on military aid to Israel and other "allies" who could very well finance their military on their own. If you create tensions in the region, that's what you get in return - Mutually Assured Destruction as the only guarantee of peace. The only difference this time is that the other side is not afraid to die.
The only reason Iran is anywhere close to having nuclear technology is because the US installed a puppet government there back in the day. Understandably, this pissed the Muslims off real bad and quickly backfired. Time and time again the US shoots itself in the feet, but the attention span the politicians have is about equal to the length of the election campaign.
Except that, as I posted above, Israel can always threaten to nuke not only Iran itself, but Mecca and Medina. Somehow I think that nuking the Muslim holy cities is the Mutually Assured Destruction of the fundamentalist era.
I smell another cold war coming...
Debian FTW
"Fell noticeably short of the Earth's atmosphere"
... sitting on the ground means it made it to atmosphere, so not quite making it to atmosphere is the purpose of all launches
Doesn't that mean they made it into space ?
I mean
G
Which just serves as further evidence that the Iranian leadership is:
1. Out of touch with humanity.
2. Living in a vacuum.
Their rocket development program is almost that elementary compared to their stated goals.
The Safir rocket is an adaptation of their Shahab-3 missile. This is a medium range ballistic missile and one of several they claimed to have test-launched en masse last month, giving Stephen Colbert an easy 10 minutes of fill material after it was found out the photos of the launch were doctored. It seems their Shahab inventory, at least flight-ready Shahab's, is not as large as they want outsiders to believe.
The Shahab itself is based on the North Korean Nodong missile, which in turn was developed from second-hand Scud missiles acquired from Egypt. Going back even further, the Scud originated in the 50's in the Soviet Union as a scaled down, improved version of the German V-2. Whew! Talk about a long lineage.
For the launch vehicle derivative, it apparently has been fitted with a different second stage, possibly derived from Soviet SA-2 surface to air missiles, and probably a small third stage with a payload fairing for the orbital version. Payload would likely be very small...the Shahab-3 only carries a 1 ton warhead on a sub-orbital trajectory. The launch weight is less than SpaceX's Falcon-1, which has a 700kg LEO capability and presumably a higher-performance engine.
Despite not having a large technical infrastructure, Iran is not entirely devoid of reasonably competent engineers. Given enough resolve and a couple more tries, they will probably succeed. It at least appears theoretically possible for that rocket to reach orbit.
However, that is still a very, very long ways from putting a man in space, even counting on existing technologies. Such a rocket will not scale well at all, meaning they will need to develop something completely new from the ground up...because North Korea isn't going to be able to supply them with a Soyuz to copy. China, for example, launched their first satellite in 1970, but it wasn't 2003 that they actually put a person in orbit. That was after drawing on Soviet experience and 3-4 generations of their own ballistic mis...err, I mean expendable launch vehicles.
Like many of their past claims, there's little reason to expect Iran to be able to follow through on the man in space claim for the foreseeable future.
The US is a theocracy corruptly governed by religion which doesn't the future of its children (instead it glorifies global warfare) and believes in immortality with Jeebus and angels eating Philly cream cheese snacks in heaven. Now you begin to see why allowing such people to have even one bomb is such a concern. There is more than an outside chance that they might choose to use their bomb against Iran or the Russia or any random country with oil regardless of the consequences (i.e. in their minds they all die in the retaliatory strike and go to their reward of hangin' with the J-man). Religion and powerful weapons are and have always been a dangerous mix.
Iran hasn't attacked anyone in several aeons.
They're a theocracy; so what. The US really might as well be one - let's count the number of non-Christian presidents, shall we? - just one with less strict rules.
Peasants, of course, believe in the bullshit, but you can bet the ruling elite of Iran are just like any other religious leaders - they're not going to have their peasants wasted, since it's hard to profit and wield power over a bunch of dust and charred bones.
...that every time Iran does anything, there's a "but in could also be used for thisandthat war technology"?
A short perspective giver: The USA do in fact use everything they can as a war technology. For very high tech, I's even the other way around: 1st: War, 2nd: commecrialized... AND they attack foreign countries... AND they have craploads of WMDs...
I'm sorry, but offensive war actions and propaganda is always wrong!
And this is cleary a result of propaganda. You want to be better than Iran...
But to us from the rest of the world (Germany (Europe) here), your government, and the ones influenced by it, look just the same as those in Iran.
I really hope, that soon, both countries get a better education system. Then most of this shit will stop by itself (like: religious madness).
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
I thought only car analogies were allowed here... OK, just kidding. The situation in Israel is more like an abused woman who moves to a new apartment to get away from her husband who beat her. Her new neighbors say "hey, we are into this sadomasochism thing too! Let's slap that bitch around!" Only to find that she has taken self-defense training and got a gun and learned to shoot.
When the old Palestine British protectorate was divided by the United Nations in the 1940s, the smaller Jewish part was named Israel and the larger part of the territory was named Jordan. "Palestine" is actually Jordan. But, different from Israel, Jordan was never a fully democratic country and in september 1970, the "Black September", a faction of the Jordanians tried to overthrow the government and failed. That faction are the people now known as "Palestinians".
When Egypt sat down to negotiate and recognized the right of Israel to exist, they got back all the territory they had lost in the wars against Israel. If Syria and Jordan wished to negotiate, they would probably get the same results Egypt did. The problem is that it's a bit hard to negotiate with someone whom you have publicly sworn to kill, unless you agree to back off a bit from that position.
There will be no homosexuals in Iran because the government will send them all into orbit without means to get back down alive.
Well, the Koran does call for homosexuals to be taken to the top of the highest point available, and thrown from it to their deaths. Before that's always been a bridge or building or mountain. But now that you mention it, Iran can bring Sharia into the space age.
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
For all their attempts to be a major regional power they should spend less money on putting some Iranian in space a lot more effort on making sure the Iranian people have food, shelter, heat, roads, sewers, water and jobs.
On one hand you have a country developing ICBM's and trying to put people in space and on the other you have hundreds of people freezing to death because a government with some of the largest energy reserves in the world can't provide natural gas to rural populations living in the mountains.
Personally I'm astounded the Iranian people or even the clerics of Iran put up with it. Everyone in control must be so out of touch with the people on the ground they don't even realize the difference they could make and the power Iran would have if they could solve the real economic and infrastructure problems the country has.
Iran is no crazier than the US right now. Infact, I would say that if you look at the history of iran, they have attacked no one, and have never been the aggressors. US on the other hand, they have a pretty bad track record. And oh yeah, they are religious nuts too!! Infact, your religious leader has resulted in the death of many americans but he has been smart enough not to use Nuclear weapons. As a muslim, I can tell you that if a muslim leader were to use Nuclear weapons on a country (which they by sharia law cannot because it kills indiscriminantly), they would have their own god to answer to.
So putting aside your illogical statement about a religious country having nuclear weapons, Iran has proven itself to be a loud mouth, but no threat, not more than the US anyway.
Nonsense. If the U.S. doesn't have a history of meddling in middle eastern affairs, there is no 9/11. This is the explanation given by the terrorists. What reason is there to lie?
Because the truth is even worse. It's not so much American "meddling", as you put it, that's got a burr up their ass... it's American culture. Our movies, TV shows, music, and fashion are "corrupting" their youth. Just like culture competes with religion here, it's competing with Islam for hearts and minds there. And they don't like the competition.
We could pull every single military unit and embassy out of the Middle East tomorrow, and in ten years they'll still hate our guts, because their own people will still be clamoring for the products of our culture.
If China wins more gold medals in the current Olympics, won't they be "PREEMINENT" as well? Once China's economy is bigger than ours, will China suffer terrorist attacks?
One, as a matter of fact, they already are. China's been in a low level war with Muslim militants for, oh, hundred's of years now. They're still fighting the descendants of those original rebels in their arid northwestern provinces. And since the 90's, those rebels have stepped up attacks on Chinese forces.
To the larger question of influence worldwide, if China's culture surpasses ours, will these militant Muslims attack them? You betcha. It'll be the same deal... fighting Chinese culture for the hearts and minds of Muslims. That's a never ending battle for Jihadists.
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
X os 0-for-3?
I had to read that several times.
The first few times I was convinced it was some weird Mac OS version I was previously unaware of.
[UID-HeinzIntel]
Do you realize that the US looks exactly like that to the outside world, but actually does have nukes and its theocratic leadership is already in the process of intentionally harming the entire planet for ideological reasons?
I reckon there's people in every culture that would drop a bomb. No need to point fingers at the Iranians, we're all in this together JFK said - and I believe you even quoted him you imbecile.
Given that extreme Islam hasn't changed much in 1500 years or so (such as is controlling Iran at present), this reminds me of what Caliph Umar said when asked what to do with the books in the just-conquered Library of Alexandria: "They will either contradict the Koran, in which case they are heresy, or they will agree with it, so they are superfluous."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria#Muslim_conquest_in_642
If I recall correctly, according to the extremist sects of Islam, the Koran is supposed to be the one-and-only-literal-word-of-God-unassailable guide on how to live life in any and every respect. Where in the Koran does it discuss planning & executing space missions? (Or nuclear plants, or a whole hell of a lot of other things.)
So, now that China and Iran, among others, are ramping up their space programs does this mean the USA will finally get serious about their space program?
Anarchists never rule
According to the Ayatollahs, does Allah approve of putting people into orbit? I mean, according to them, most other things that have happened since the 15th century seem to be bad.
Non-proliferation was still a very valid goal back even before we worried about the religious inclinations of the regimes involved. Perhaps we shouldn't worry about the Iranians because they are Muslims, but that hardly means we shouldn't worry about them.
Relax I just want some peanuts.
Turkey today announced it's ambitious plans to construct the worlds best sandwich using the controversial meat, turkey, as the main ingredient. The challenge of course is to have this sandwich be the best in every part of the world. It will be an explosion of Turkish pride into the world the president of Turkey, Mr. Feather, reports. No country, not even the all powerful USA with it's wide selection of sandwiches of mass obesity, will prevail over Turkey in this challenge. The world will have to pay attention to Turkey! Long live the Turkey Sandwich!
It's 2%.
Democracy Now! - your daily, uncensored, corporate-free
When did Iran "glorifies suicide bombing"? Can someone show me a single case where an Iranian was involved in a suicide bombing incident?
maybe they could all die from some kind of new flu strain. of course, the u.s. would have a cure for us....only. that would fix all our problems
The idea that Iran would in effect commit a nation wide act of suicide terrorism is the stupidest and least informed idea that I have heard in discussions about the Middle East.
Unfortunately you are not alone in this and in believing in extreme overgeneralizing and simplistic models of Islamic behaviour.
Iran is a theocracy officially governed by religion which doesn't cherish the future of its children...
This is insightful?
Captcha: Heathen
Just to remind people - the very first Soviet rocket, R-7 - the one that was used to launch Sputnik-1 - was in fact designed, and first used as, an ICBM.
"fell noticeably short of the Earth's atmosphere"
Hasn't anyone noticed the huge technological leap Iran have made. A rocket launch that falls short of the atmoshpere? How does one do that exactly?
People in Iran is not rich at all, for sure, and their bearded dictators burn the limited economic resources in this shit...
Go to hell.
Sheesh--enough with the virgins already. People speak of it as if it's a positive thing. Who wants to spend an eternity constantly hearing "it hurts, am I doing it right"?
Hmm... No.
There exists a much more logical macro-political reason that one nuke is as good as a thousand:
Assuming that Iran can convince NATO et. al that their nuclear weapons infrastructure:
1) Is secure from infiltration and other soft attacks.
2) Has good enough early-warning that they can launch a retaliatory strike in the face of any "preemptive" attack.
It would be an insane gamble on the part of a western government to seriously attack Iran; the western populace which gets hit with the retaliatory strike would crucify their leadership at the very least, not to mention the massive economic and social destabilization of the "lucky" country..
[/armchair_general]
See "The Minimum Means of Reprisal" by J. Lewis for a similar view re. China.
Orion planned for 2016 + a few years of delays.
This may mean that Iran will be able to launch humans into space while the US is still waiting until the development of Orion has finally finished
Uhm.. there is only one nation on the world that proved to be such morons to use such a destructive weapon (when there was no need for it), and that's the US.. The US is led by greed, and that's just as bad as being led by religion.. I'm against nuclear weapons (or any other MDW), but as long as the US has them, any other country on the world is entitled to the same.. what gives the US the right to say to others they can't.. Nothing.. As I said, there is only one country in the world that used 2 H-bombs when it wasn't necessary, and that's the US.. So I'm more afraid of the US using nukes on 'innocent' countries as any other country..
Then they'll be able stone women to death with moon rocks.
Certain Russian nukes are man portable. In the sense that a single person can carry them. However, Iran doesn't have anywhere near the tech to miniaturize a nuke to that degree, so unless the russians are giving away their suitcase nukes, I doubt the iranians will have one anytime soon.
our argument does not even apply to fundamentalists/extremists (such as the khomenei, bin laden..etc). Why haven't the chief heads of al-qaeda waged an all out suicidal war in the open against the western soldiers?
Al-Qaeda cares about waging jihad the most effective way they can. Lining up to be cut down by the west without inflicting any damage back makes no sense for them. Even if Osama Bin Laden cares about his own preservation, what does he care about Pakistan or Iran's preservation? Why would someone like Osama Bin Laden fear nuclear retaliation, he's already in a position to be assassinated if ever found.
If it was as simple as you state, and the Persians think the way you think they do, they would have already attacked the US and Israel.
And Iran already has attacked Israel. They continually provide funds, weapons, training and even recruits to Hezbollah for the express purpose of attacking Israel. If they had nuclear weapons they would be able to attack it even more boldly.
The truth is they're just talking, because tough talk is what keeps them in power (kind of like over here in the good old USA). Gone are the days of conquest in the name of spreading religion.
If you believe this then you are willfully ignorant. There are very strong movements of extremist mullahs rallying precisely for the spread of Islam through jihad. You are making a very dangerous mistake to try and attribute rationality to extremist groups like Al-Qaeda.
Dude, you completely misunderstood the point. Please read in context of what the OP was saying to understand why some of your points may be true but irrelevant. The idea that these people will engage in mass mutual destruction/suicide once they get nuclear weapons is precisely what is being challenged, because it is plain naive.
There are very strong movements of extremist mullahs rallying precisely for the spread of Islam through jihad.
When they have invading ground, air and naval forces under their command, give me a ring.
The idea that these people will engage in mass mutual destruction/suicide once they get nuclear weapons is precisely what is being challenged, because it is plain naive.
Believing that religious zealots who already routinely blow themselves up in city streets wouldn't do the same with bigger bombs is naive. After Al-Qaeda sacrifices the lives of many of their own operatives to crash planes into the WTC, you somehow think they'd hesitate to use a nuclear weapon for fear of the consequences? Who's being naive here?
You mean two. Read up on the second strike capability.
When the policeman of the tie, rule you violate, hello punishment of the kitty?
We are they going to get all of those virgins? I'd like to know?
You mean two. Read up on the second strike capability.
Good point.
It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
With more modern designs, 400 acres of desert can get you 64 megawatts. Solar's come a long way.
...when you're writing a game...tweak the difficulty of "Easy" to something [your mother] can cope with. -- onion2k
the government of iran are fools and idiots the unemployment is huge their people are poor and uneducated but what does iran spend its money on? launching a fucking man into fucking space