Slashdot Mirror
Councils Recruit Unpaid Volunteers To Spy On Their Neighbors
Several readers have written to tell us that a recent move in the UK has councils relying on info from "Citizen Snoopers" to report the transgressions of their neighbors. Currently only implemented as "environment volunteers" designed to keep watch on things like litter, dog habits, and improper trash sorting, there is a certain amount of trepidation that this could grow into something more sinister. "It will fuel fears that Britain is lurching towards a Big Brother society, following the revelation this week that the Home Office is extending some police powers to council staff and private security guards. Critics said the latest scheme could easily be abused and encourage a culture of bin spies and curtain twitchers. Matthew Elliott, of the Taxpayers' Alliance, said: 'Snooping on your neighbors to report recycling infringements sounds like something straight out of the East German Stasi's copybook.'"
I know its fashionable to see the UK government as a bunch of closet dictators , but really this is more about money - or lack of. Rather than it being the beginning of the UKs version of the Stasi its simply a case of the government not wanting to cough up cash for real police so they hope they can fob us off with cut price gimmicks like this. They've already given us the Community Support Officer (the plastic police) which is effectively a policeman with limited powers - and crucially a lower salary , but by getting the curtain twitcher types to report on people they don't have to pay any salary.
Of course what will happen to a private civilian with no backup or weapons of any sort trying to stop or ticket some 250lb drunk lout with attitude chucking his beer can over a fence is anyones guess...
Reminds me of the kids in 1984 spying on their parents and reporting on the poor Parsons.
Here in Michigan we also do this. If your neighbor wont cut his grass in a timely manner there is usually a municipal number you can call. The city agents will come out and issue a fine. This applies to more than grass though. Animals, noise, etc. If there it is a "private" neighborhood then you can have other things written into the charter or whatever its called for that area.
Its really only concerned with property related things though. If you see your neighbor growing pot plants, you'd have to find another number to call...
Like fuck it won't.
I don't like my neighbour, the dog. Yup, the neighbour didn't clean up after their dog.
Yes, they are not sorting their recycling.
This sort of shit moves society away from an open society to a society of fear. I would have thought that getting people to work together and trust each other (and deserve that trust) would be much better then getting them to mistrust and fear their neighbours.
Same sort of shit where doctors for children and podiatrists are mistaken for "paedophiles".
I wank in the shower.
Isn't voluntary work by definition unpaid?
I'll just tick that off my "You know when your country resembles the novel 1984 when..." list
Right, I'm off down the pub for a quick 1/2 litre.
Don't worry. I have a drug house in front of mine. That means we get a lot of vandalism, theft, noise, car crashes, and a loss of sleep at night. So I bought a top of the line camera ($2500) to catch the action and turn it into the police. They like the pretty pictures of the drugs and cash trading hands, but after a few months, the drug house is still going strong:
http://rs6.risingnet.net/~dattaway/shame
Here's the Axis network webcam for you to play with (you'll quickly find out I'm in the USA where bandwidth SUCKS!)
http://www.dattaway.net/
Germany, Hilter, gestapo, WWII.
Britian, Brown, Citizen Snoopers, ...
Sounding familiar?
Simon Pegg will show up as the big city cop in a small town that takes his job too seriously and brings down the corrupt and evil snoopers.
Or
John Hurt's neighbor's kids will overhear their father talking anti-government in his sleep and they'll turn him in for re-education by the system, and the big evil system will continue on it's merry way.
I'm hoping more "Hot Fuzz" than "1984" on this one.
"There are no facts, only interpretations." --Friedrich Nietzsche.
Queue slashdot apologists.
Why is it that UK seems to lead in privacy-crippling, big-brother style techniques?
All corners covered, CCTV, spying on each other and clearly, there's still no good evidence of any of this wrking twards any good results...
From my experience, if there are some really bad things happening, neighbour will not report, being too scared.
Actually they could face legal problems with some copyrighted materials, along with censorship / creativity tradeoff.
To bad you can't escape "Citizen Snoopers" with a special profile tag in real life...
Uh, perhaps some people need to read 1984 again. By the time people start "informing" on one another, Big Brother is already here. "Lurching"? More like "Arrived".
Britain is lost behind an iron curtain of it's own making.
Official Heretic from the "Church of Global Warming". Proven right thanks to whistle blowers. AGW = Flat Earth Theory
I think it's sad when people can't behave responsibly without being snooped upon, whether it's the police or neighbours.
I'm sorry if I haven't offended anyone
I purchased a car a few months ago.
It didn't have any tax when I got it.
I had it parked on the side of the road for 2 days whilst I was waiting for my insurance documents to come through so that I can get tax (it's impossible to get tax without insurance).
I was in a catch 22 situation, it was impossible for me to get tax.
Anyhow, one of my neighbours dutifully phoned up the DVLA (a government agency) who promptly clamped my car and gave me a £200 fine which I payed promptly.
A few weeks later I received another letter from the DVLA this time threatening to fine me £83 for not licensing my vehicle or they were going to take me to court.
I'm going to go to court as I hope that the judge will see that they put me in an impossible situation (but I expect I'll probably end up having to pay an even larger fine)
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
Growing things in pots is a transgression in Michigan?
Really, safety may be the justification, but the driving forces are actually greed and power!
Beware, when government uses automation to dispense justice, there's really no reasonable limit to how much mechanical injustice these systems can and will produce.
Sadly, the burden will again fall hardest on those with the least financial herewithal.
Trust is one of the tenants on which civilisation and a modern society is built on,
i trust my neighbour wont kill me, i trust that random joe i pass on the street doesnt want to stab me, etc etc
when you can no longer trust anyone but yourself what kind of civilisation are we living/building ?
perhaps i should be proactive and kill/attack anyone who comes near me or my property, just to be safe of course
does the gov think its a healthy thing to encouraging that you to trust nobody ?
what is the correct response to someone who you dont trust ? and will that improve society ?
perhaps some anthropologists would like to chime in
I have a friend who lives in Switzerland who says that getting reported to the authorities by your neighbours for petty rule violations is a fairly common occurrence there.
"In Hampshire, Eastleigh council wants locals to 'monitor local environmental quality' and report 'issues' involving recycling and waste."
If you take the single quotes out and read it without your tin foil hat on there's nothing to object to. It's just the council asking for people to report problems which they'll then look into. Surely every local government in the world does that.
http://twitter.com/onion2k
This rubbish is the sort of thing that made me leave the UK eight years ago. Right now I'm a couple of thousand miles away and I couldn't be happier.
Ganty
My parents recently returned from a trip that included visiting Croatia and Serbia. One of the things that touched them the most was the tall, gray, nondescript cement block apartment buildings that stretched for miles and miles, built by the fascist communist government. In these dreary buildings, the interior walls were intentionally built thinner than usual. It was not only for cost reasons, however... it is said that over 50% of people eavesdropped on and informed on their neighbors to the communist government, and the paper-thin walls made it so that people had to constantly whisper for fear of being overheard.
Dr Superlove 300ml. I use my powers for awesome
Betray your family and friends. Fabulous prizes to be won! And don't forget to vote fascist for a third glorious decade of total law enforcement.
But I doubt this is for people to report whenever a neighbour makes a mistake. It's for people who regularly and deliberately break the law when they know that no police are watching.
There is a driver who lives near me who regularly skips red lights and speeds, unless there is a police car about. Currently, I have no power to report him, even if I have evidence so he carries on knowing full well that he can get away with it.
In an ideally policed state, there would be sufficient police employed to witness or prevent every deliberate crime but this is impractical.
So I doubt that, as the article suggests "Councils are unlikely to ignore tip-offs" if they are a one off, but if several come in from different people, then they may pay attention.
This isn't something to worry about if you're rich. No one's going to come out to your country estate and spy to make sure that your caviar jar is sorted into the glass recycling bin. See, creeping fascism isn't about government trying to control everyone, it's about motivating us to become better (that is, rich) so we don't have to worry about such things. I'm glad when governments care so much about encouraging their citizens to reach their full potential.
These are usually local ordinances. They are fairly rare as whole cities go, but if you live in a community with a "Homeowners Association" then they can have all sorts of crazy "laws". Junk vehicles in your driveway, bushes are too high, need to rake leaves, children are ugly, daughter is a floozy, etc. More often than not, the elderly are in charge of the Homeowner's Association, and spend their days looking through binoculars to see if that no-good 30-something couple's dog is making on their lawn again... and they didn't pick it up!
Welcome to The 'Burb's.
Is it just me, or does this look like the old East Germany, where everybody spied after everybody else?
nazi. fear is unprecedented evile's primary weapon. that, along with deception & coercion, helps most of us remain (unwittingly?) dependent on its' greed/fear/ego based hired goons' agenda. Most of yOUR dwindling resources are being squandered on the 'war', & continuation of the billionerrors stock markup FraUD/pyramid scheme. nobody ever mentions the real long term costs of those debacles in both life & the notion of prosperity, not to mention the abuse of the consciences of those of us who still have one. see you on the other side of it. the lights are coming up all over now. conspiracy theorists are being vindicated. some might choose a tin umbrella to go with their hats. the fairytail is winding down now. let your conscience be yOUR guide. you can be more helpful than you might have imagined. there are still some choices. if they do not suit you, consider the likely results of continuing to follow the corepirate nazi hypenosys story LIEn, whereas anything of relevance is replaced almost instantly with pr ?firm? scriptdead mindphuking propaganda or 'celebrity' trivia 'foam'. meanwhile; don't forget to get a little more oxygen on yOUR brain, & look up in the sky from time to time, starting early in the day. there's lots going on up there.
http://news.google.com/?ncl=1216734813&hl=en&topic=n
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/31/opinion/31mon1.html?em&ex=1199336400&en=c4b5414371631707&ei=5087%0A
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/29/world/29amnesty.html?hp
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/06/02/nasa.global.warming.ap/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/weather/06/05/severe.weather.ap/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/weather/06/02/honore.preparedness/index.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/01/opinion/01dowd.html?em&ex=1212638400&en=744b7cebc86723e5&ei=5087%0A
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/06/05/senate.iraq/index.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/17/washington/17contractor.html?hp
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/03/world/middleeast/03kurdistan.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080708/cheney_climate.html
http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20080805/pl_politico/12308;_ylt=A0wNcxTPdJhILAYAVQms0NUE
is it time to get real yet? A LOT of energy is being squandered in attempts to keep US in the dark. in the end (give or take a few 1000 years), the creators will prevail (world without end, etc...), as it has always been. the process of gaining yOUR release from the current hostage situation may not be what you might think it is. butt of course, most of US don't know, or care what a precarious/fatal situation we're in. for example; the insidious attempts by the felonious corepirate nazi execrable to block the suns' light, interfering with a requirement (sunlight) for us to stay healthy/alive. it's likely not good for yOUR health/memories 'else they'd be bragging about it? we're intending for the whoreabully deceptive (they'll do ANYTHING for a bit more monIE/power) felons to give up/fail even further, in attempting to control the 'weather', as well as a # of other things/events.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=weather+manipulation&btnG=Search
http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&q=video+cloud+spraying
dictator style micro management has never worked (for very long). it's an illness. tie that with life0cidal aggression & softwar gangster style bullying, & what do we have? a greed/fear/ego based recipe for disaster. meanwhile, you can help to stop the bleeding (loss of life & limb);
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/28/vermont.banning.bush.ap/index.html
the bleeding must be stopped before any healing can begin. jailing a couple of corepirate nazi hired goons would send a clear message to the rest of the world from US. any truthful look at the 'scorecard' would reveal that we are a society in decline/deep doo-doo, despite all of the scriptdead pr ?firm? generated drum beating & flag waving propaganda that we are constantly bombarded with. is it time to get
The core of the problem is there is no duty to recycle. No one sees a problem with neighbor reporting a murder, yet you seem to see a problem with neighbor reporting failure to recycle.
The problem is not with the denunciation per se, but the fact that the law is unjust, and the sole result of a coercive monopoly on trash collection, aided by an ecological agenda undermining individual freedom.
You should have screamed when recycling became mandatory, you should have screamed at the monopoly on roads and trash collection.
Obviously the danger with these schemes is that the government will push more unjust law, and use its own citizens to report on other's violations.
The only way this works is because people have a false reverence towards the state, they believe that by making law, it has the power to make just what is unjust, and unjust what is just.
From experience, most people on Slashdot have a good intuition, nevertheless when pressed a little they fall back on a positivist view of law, giving governments the authority to define what is and is not a crime for example. Sad.
\u262D = \u5350
I know that in Germany (living here, have heard it from people dealing with government official agencies) a comparable system is being deployed as well. People are being hired to check for "incongruities" in the neighboorhood; to what full extent i don't know, but i do know that it encompasses the first listed things as well, like checking for litter, unsafe locations, etc.
Doesn't sound very good to me.
Power corrupts the few, while weakness corrupts the many.
1) yes, I am aware that complaining about people who think they know best and then proclaiming that the law shouldn't reflect the immediate desires of the greater population makes me a hypocrite. I can live with that.
2) No America, you aren't free of these things either, though they are developed to a different extent in each country.
My mother grew up in Stalinist Russia. One of her neighbors had some land that another neighbor wanted. One night, the police showed up, claimed she had "old money" which was paper money from before Stalin took power, and she was taken away and never seen again. Here is further evidence that environmentalism is the new flavor of fascism. Call these people on their bullsh*t every chance you get.
... Until they recruit children to spy on their parents? Honestly, this is the road they're going down here.
... in Germany, these people were called "Blockwart" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockwart). Worked fine from the governments view, I think. On a grander scale, the Soviets and Allied fortunately stopped us from extending this system over all of Europe. I guess the Britains try to develop the high art of learning from those you defeated. Its a kind of Zen, really.
"Remember, remember, the fifth of November..."
But you have to pay insurance to cover it.
National Insurance contributions.
Remember, remember The Fifth of November The Gunpowder Treason and plot. I know of no reason Why the Gunpowder Treason Should ever be forgot. People shouldn't be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.
"It's for the greater good." Did none of these idiots see "Hot Fuzz"??? Sheesh!
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
Here we call it Home Owner's Associations. They have the legal right to lien your house if you don't cut your lawn. In my experience, the "police" for these groups are bored, older, retired people who volunteer to spy on their neighbors, their neighbor's neighbors, etc. Did I mention they were bored?
My name fits again.
Not to mention the Cubans, the North Koreans, and any other country where people were encouraged to spy on their neighbors.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
This is how you transition from Nanny Statism to full on Communism.
This is already common practice in Switzerland, where your neighbor will turn you in for not having you car's road tax updated even though you don't drive and your car is parked in the common building garage or you have the crazy idea of flushing the toilet after 22 h. Yes, both are actual examples...
There they call it a comité. Or committee. It's there so that citizens can spy on their neighbors and report it to the government.
That's a core tactic of communists. There is no other reason for it to be there other than to scare the citizenry into submission.
They're using their grammar skills there.
There is a driver who lives near me who regularly skips red lights and speeds, unless there is a police car about. Currently, I have no power to report him, even if I have evidence so he carries on knowing full well that he can get away with it.
Of course you do. Get on the phone and complain to the police. This is statistically how most criminals are caught; by citizens reporting crimes. --The difference with this new scheme is that snitching is being introduced in an organized manner through 'green' environmentalism which people are far more likely to allow a toe-hold.
This is the next small step in the Big Evil Plan everybody has been nervously hoping would just kind of not happen. --First they sold Brits those gawdawful surveillance cameras, (and to my ever-lasting astonishment, actually managed to convince a significant portion of the populace to love them), so now it's time to take the next step.
I'm curious to see at what point people will realize, "Oops. People are vanishing into camps. Maybe that's not such a good thing. . . Maybe I should have put my foot down a few years back. . ."
The sad part is, with the kind of programming the British have undergone over the last century or so, I actually think there will be a good portion of the population which will be cheering the whole death-parade right up to the bitter end. I'm not judging such people, but it is a bit depressing to consider.
-FL
How delightfully racist of you. Lest ye forget your ancestors were criminals.
They're using their grammar skills there.
Instead of worrying about petty things such as improper trash sorting and "dog habits", for God sakes, worry about things that matter -- murderers, rapists, and drug abusers.
Need an automatic screenshot taker? Try here.
Volunteers or not - if they misreport something, they should be accountable. To a point the plastic police is a good idea - but they are only just better than a volunteer because they had some training. But in the end, what can they do. There was a story at the BBC where a pair of plastic police couldn't rescue a drowning boy. They just called it in and waited. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/7006412.stm I understand the idea behind this.. But isn't it better to have quality trained police rather than curtain twitchers? We already have so much distrust between neighbours, this will only make things worse.
I live in a part of France that has been occupied by the britshit for the last quarter-millenium, so we have had plenty of time to observe them from without.
In comparison to the french, the brits are hypocrites (we will waste no time driving home what we think about you); they will say nothing at all to your face, or perhaps a "good morning" (sometimes supplemented by "isn't the weather wonderful today", even though there is a light drizzle), and then will gladly stab you in the back when you last expect it.
Their idea of a "community" is more tribal than anything else; they will form homogenous social groups that will exist in total, blissfull ignorance of other local social groups; such an attitude naturally fosters misundestanding of the other groups. The hypocritical mentality also means that people will covertly act against perceived greivances, by all means possible. You don't like the neighbour's face, choice of music or colour of motor-car? Goody! He brings his garbage too early, here is a way of getting back at him!
The limeys are hypocrites and they know it; hence their false veeneer of respectability and decorum (those who are called YOBS are in reality people who recognize the hypocrisy and are refusing to go with that oxdung, and let their true sentiments be expressed in the open -- believe me, beneath every stiff upper-lip is a contained YOB that would gladly jump at your throat at the earliest convenience), that perfectly explains the "curtain twitcher" busybody mentality. As such, such a development is certainly not a surprise, the surprise being that it has taken so much time to materialize.
Quit Snitchin'.
Or, to put it more maturely: If you would rather tell a punitive authority about your neighbors instead of directly talking to your neighbors about the issue, you may find yourself punished as well.
It always comes as a shock to the newly surburbanized geek when his neighbors begin insisting that he curb his dog, mow the lawn and replace the siding which hasn't seen a new coat of paint since the Carter Administration.
This isn't 1984. It is - for better or worse - simply the price of admission.
It's so people don't park on their heads.
Neighbors s/b Neighbours
If you take the single quotes out and read it without your tin foil hat on there's nothing to object to. It's just the council asking for people to report problems which they'll then look into. Surely every local government in the world does that.
Eventually people will learn that tin foil, (in its metaphoric state), is a healthy additive in any mental diet.
I'm guessing that this lesson won't sink in until those people find themselves on the wrong side of some barbed wire. But we don't like to think of such things, so it's better to make silly jokes and hope we're right despite the mounting evidence to the contrary. --Or worse, secretly plan to be one of the informers, so you can finally do away with all the queers and colored people and those weird neighbors who looked at you funny that one time.
Don't worry though. I'll throw some bread over the wall for you after your sociopathic neighbor who hates you for no good reason calls the cops on you for having a suspicious number of empty spam tins or whatever in your recycling bin. Unless of course you turn her in first, in which case I'll just punch you in the mouth. Hm. Better turn me while you're at it. Cuz you know, I'm one of those strange people who wears that suspicious-looking tin foil. And boy, wouldn't it be nice to be able to get rid of that lot, eh? They're a blight on the community! They're different. They don't salute with proper British gusto. They don't support the war!
-FL
The post you are replying to is an awful, racist troll to be sure.
But only a vanishingly small proportion of Australian settlers were convicts. There were a couple of convict shipments in the 1780s (immediately following American independence because they couldn't send convicts to America anymore). But the bulk of the population is decended from free settlers who came here, particularly during the gold rush periods in the 1800s.
The whole 'decended from criminals' thing is a popular American stereotype of Australians, but it's a bit of a misnomer. Far more British convicts were sent to the New World than were ever sent down under.
You probably already knew this. But many of us get ... irritated ... when American's say time after time the same old thing ;)
This is statistically how most criminals are caught; by citizens reporting crimes
Your right, but not for 'small' crimes like this. They mostly go un-punished. I have had absolutely no affect on this guy's driving habits by reporting him.
I like V for Vendetta too and I'm firmly in the camp of 'Brits who hope the Big Evil Plan isn't going to happen...Must be all the programming.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockleiter
The reality is probably somewhat different than this article suggests. Don't forget that thisislondon.com = the Evening Standard = Associated Newspapers, the same people who brought you the Daily Mail. The Mail is one of the heaviest and most obnoxious pushers for the Law and Order lobby in this country (and very keen on Registration And Surveillance of such 'undesirable elements' as immigrants), but at the same time it has a vested interest in running "big brother" hysteria stories like this one, which if you actually read it is short on details and big on hyperbole. I presume that the reality is that someone from the council might put a leaflet through your letterbox if your recycling box is empty, not that you're going to get carted off to the cellars of the Ministry of Love.
Indeed, it should be mentioned at this point that the Mail was such a big supporter of the British Union of Fascists and, indeed, of Adolf Hitler in the 1930s that it had the nickname "The Daily Heil".
They also had neighbors reporting on neighbors.
After a few years, the state graduates to recruiting children to report on their parents.
As a total aside, Doctor Who is my other huge favorite.
That dude is so utterly, utterly positive and courageous. Shines like a beacon in the landscape of television! I figure if the human race is capable of envisioning the likes of Doctor Who, then we all might just have a chance.
Why yes, I am a huge geek. Why do you ask?
-FL
Sounds bad enough now.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Before you liberals start with your crap, this is almost already a BB style country we live in now. We have the highest rate of CCTV anywhere in the world, if you go to work in any major city in the UK you are likely to be captured anywhere up to 300 times a day! We have 1 camera for every 14 people. We are on the brink of getting ID cards, we already have biometric passports, PHORM are about to get their greedy f*kng mits into our browsing habits for financial gain and opening the door to the government to collect surfing data. Testing is going on to see about adding tracking devices to all UK vehicles, "for road pricing", balls, to track the movements off UK vehicles. Finally the UK's version of the RIAA/MPAA have forced the government to make the ISPs sign up to pass any information the to the record and movies companies on suspected copyright infingers. The Scientology mob are buying the police and anyone caught with an anti-scientology sign or placard is arrested. Lets not even get started on the supposedly anti-terror laws which means the filth can arrest anyone they consider to be dark of skin or taking photos of any public building, lock them up for 42 days without charge!
Too late people, we had our chance to fight this stuff, would the last one to leave, please turn out the lights....
That's a core tactic of communists. There is no other reason for it to be there other than to scare the citizenry into submission.
That's not the "core tactic of communists", it's part of totalitarianism. In fact, in theory, communism is the complete opposite of totalitarianism, since it wants to get rid of the state altogether and instead appeals to people to share voluntarily (of course, in practice, all attempts at establishing communist states have led to totalitarianism). Reporting people to the state is a "core tactic" of fascism and right wing ideologies.
I'm not saying that to defend communism, which I consider inherently flawed and dangerous, but because knee-jerk statements like yours cause people to make wrong political choices.
In practice, the political spectrum has totalitarianism at both ends. The US political spectrum has shifted strongly to the right, and as a result, it's the right end of the US political spectrum that is advocating totalitarian policies, and to some degree succeeding in putting them in to practice. The left end of the US political spectrum is so moderate that even European-style socialism is considered extreme in the US.
There is no other reason for it to be there other than to scare the citizenry into submission.
Sadly, that is the approach most politicians take: they use fear to get elected. But, again, in the US, the right is much more guilty of this than the left.
Leave the kid alone
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
"I want to report a personal music player on my block. I don't think that they own all the songs on there"
Then they come and arrest everyone with an ipod and go door to door since they have a 'tip'.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
First of all he didn't say left or right.
Besides 'direction of leaning' is totally irrelevant ( and relative ) in the first place. Governments of any persuasion naturally gravitate to this sort of nonsense..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Some of the people around here seem to believe that it is okay to break the law and not pay the consequences. Well, that is sheer nonsense for a couple of reasons:
1. People stop fighting the bad laws because unenforced laws don't affect them (until it does). Yes, some laws are bad. Yet they will remain on the books if you indiscriminantly break them rather than try to fix them.
2. People don't understand the rationale behind the law, and break them with detrimental consequences. Some laws exist to ensure public safety against not so visible threats. I'm not talking about stuff like murder or theft here. I'm talking about stuff that can be public health threats, like dog shit and dumping cleaners into store sewers.
The final thing that I would like to add is a comment about social responsibility. If someone breaks the law, you are responsible for reporting it, else everyone will pay the price. If a government passes a bad law, you are responsible for opposing it, else everyone will pay the price. But reporting a law breaker is not going to bring on the society depicted in 1984, and screaming "this is big brother, this is 1984" is not going to prevent the society depicted in 1984 from developing (indeed, it may encourage that society to develop because those who love freedom will be perceived as nutbars by society at large).
Why should we care if Stassi like measures are enacted using as excuse (reasonable or not, that does not really matter) cost cutting?
What happens with such schemes is that they are abused. Have a grudge about somebody? Simple: report that person for any minor offences you can come up with it. If they are actually real ones much the better obviously, we are legislated so much to the tilt that is almost certain everybody is breaking the law at some point or another (the "ignorance is not excuse" when it comes to applying the law becomes hollower and hollower with each passing law that creates new criminal offences).
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
The US?
Pulease ...
At least in the UK the political system is not tainted by money and niche interests.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I can't help but to see this in a UK/US parallel. Here in Florida, you are constantly encouraged to be a "good citizen" and to phone in that which you see that is "wrong" (your call there). The mantra is pasted on the rear of every police vehicle and many other county vehicles, "SEE A CRIME? CALL 800-ANY-TIPS". So you see, we've already been there and done that in many ways. Cameras are up at virtually all intersections (who watches that stuff, anyway? JUST machines and/or sinister human beings?). The big difference I see is that when WE call in with something (dumptrucks full of pot or a van-full of really pissed off latinos with automatic weapons), we're promptly ignored while I suspect you get action? At least an inquiry? Here in this county, our police are completely equipped even with an armored attack vehicle (in 5 years it's been in several parades), 3 full time helicopters that cost incredible money to operate as they swoop down on your homes' vicinity at any hour - and these babies are loud. They have the weapons, the manpower and the firepower to repel - what? They seldom come at all or with zeal enough to get them on the spot within 20 minutes or so. And if summoned for what we the citizens feel is a REAL emergency, action here happens only for what THEY gauge is worthy of consideration, expensive time and effort - unless it's a "special" person (connected, elected or notably wealthy and respected). I imagine that it's much the same in other places in the USA as well. The UK seems to be catching up to much of the surveillance trendage already happening elsewhere. Orwell was close, just too optimistic. IF you carry anything electronic, from a watch to an IPod or phone, you likely already are being monitored in some way. GPS, RFID, Blue Tooth, cell technologies - ALL can and either will be or are being used to track you, monitor you and to scope you out. Eventually insurance companies will cash in by profiling your habits, food you buy, hours you keep meds you buy, legal and illegal, people you associate with, bump into or run over. It is not far off at all and it's my feeling that IF it can be done, it WILL be done and regard for legality or morality will be tossed out the window due to the suspicion that we of the general masses are but trash anyway or at least until proven otherwise. You can either wear a tin-foil party hat, move to B.F.E. or go to work for the watchers. No option exists for "just leave me alone" anymore. NONE.
Keep trying to change the system through demonstration and voting. If things get bad enough, time for a killing spree.
Blar.
From the article...
"The 'covert human intelligence sources' keep watch on suspected law-breakers"
"Volunteers will be involved in reporting issues in their area"
"The recruits will also be involved in the 'promotion of recycling and waste minimisation"
Sounds more like "Thought Police" than Special Constables.
For example...
"Snooping on your neighbours to report recycling infringements" - i.e. Watching others.
"Volunteers will be involved in reporting issues in their area" - i.e. Reporting others.
"The recruits will also be involved in the 'promotion of recycling and waste minimisation" - i.e. Changing how people think and so behave.
So its far more like "Thought Police". Yeah they are there to protect us all, so its good warm feelings for all of us. Yeah right. The problem is this new Thought Police are also there to enforce whatever new rules petty councils think up. As usual the minority of power seekers, who seek to dictate rules and terms to others, also seek to encourage and lead their mini armies of sheep minded people to follow what they want. (Power seekers are sadly so predictable. Their names and ideas change thoughout history, and from country to country, but what always remains, is their constant need to find ever more ways to dictate their rules to others and always, ultimately they are the ones who gain from their power seeking, even these want-to-be petty council dictators with their free army of sheep minded people).
There are 10 kinds of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.
Not necessarily true. A proper study design will *always* allow for this sort of input. At the very least, someone will collate any such write-ins that they get and account for them. Afterwards there's a chance that the analysts may then go ahead and decide that it's noise and disregard it, but they can only do that AFTER tallying up this and any other write-ins. IF they get a significant number of write-in answers, particularly a significant number with the same or very similar answer, the database will have to be altered to account for them, and in the report it will have to be noted that there was this unexpected response, which was statistically significant, and which might likely have been even more significant had it not required a write-in to record. The next iteration of the survey should then have that response available without a write-in.
This is the proper way to do it. I'm not saying there arent fly-by-night survey outfits that cut corners, and I'm not saying it's impossible that some of them cut this particular corner - but to do otherwise is disreputable and scientifically unsound.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
both of the movie cases could be true and then there are other cases.
You could have the nut job parent/kid that wants to blow up government buildings because they want to change government or snipe school kids because they were picked on. Trust me the system will arrest them and may or may not even make the attempt to re-educate them.
I find the case of a big city person coming to the small town more funny than anything. Why? Because shortly those $2500 4 camera DVRs will be $500 so assume 5% of your small town has them on both their property and cars and will submit video on a person doing something/anything that they don't like in a heart beat to both the police and to their communty website. Now, any cop that doesn't play strictly by all local rules will be found out and terminated from local employment very fast if a large percentage of the locals all seem to complain and have video proof that this officer is just being "rude", "offensive", or even worse "unprofessional."
In short though, local people should be able to make up and enforce their own absurd rules. Yes, this means that they'll be able to do things that you don't like are right or should be ilegal.
I know in the US, for example, Congress exempts itself from Social Security, for instance, and I presume they would have a "better" healthcare system for themselves if they every got around to putting something in place here.
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
located at The White House.
Where are the mod points when you need them. Brilliantly succinct definition there :-)
"She's furniture with a pulse"
and see nothing wrong with raping you up the ass for their own petty ends.
Because while they're watching you, nobody's watching THEM.
"Quis custodes ipso custodes"
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
who are "threatened" (because they're so fuckin' important that they must be responding to threats,) while the Democrats are "ne'er do wells" who must be in cohoots with these slimy creatures who would threaten "Truth, Justice and The American Way(TM)®"
I'd laugh if they weren't deadly serious (and quite paranoid.)
It would come as such a blow to their egos to know that nobody gives a shit.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Remember, Remember, The First of September.
I've been on both ends of the fence here. I've been on a strata council (that assigned bylaws for our condo complex) and I've had a cousin get bitten by bad council rules.
In my case, I actually *joined* the council to made sure that the rules governing my home weren't being arbitrarily made by a bunch of aged "get off my lawn" types. The oldest guy in the group was actually one of the best though, as he didn't put up with BS (either in making stupid rules, or people who didn't adhere to the sensical ones).
In regards to the "rusted automobile" one... we actually did enforce a rule that stated that vehicles had to be usable and in good repair. Why? Because prior to that we had a bunch of broken-down pickups in the common grounds, that hadn't been driven in 5 years and were leaking nasty fluids all over the place.
We had plenty of other things that might seem pushy (council had to give approval to certain exterior or interior modifications), but when you have things like people creating holes which then allow flooding into their neighbours, etc, they make sense (and again, we tried to be reasonable about it).
Now in the area of unreasonableness, I've seen things like "rent restrictions" and even worse. Rent restrictions suck, because if you have to move suddenly (new job, lost job, whatever) and you can't afford your mortgage without renting the place, you're screwed. These had been suggested but we shot them down every time. We just made sure to deal with bad renters (owners are responsible for whom they rent to).
Now back to the real big issues: my cousin got a place in a complex with a bunch of nosy old fogies. They had rent controls and live-in controls. Not only could you not rent out, but you couldn't have a roomate, and you couldn't have your significant other move in until you'd been together a certain time. I'm rather certain that these weren't legal, but fighting them takes time and possibly court money.
So, my suggestion for anyone buying into a place with a local council: research the rules first, and join the council if you've got any amount of space time to contribute.
The problem is that these associations show up everywhere, and as you might note, they're trying to enforce laws that are not legal. I see no reason that the grandparent should have to hunt everywhere for a non-HOA location just because some idiots want to play God but haven't researched the local laws.
Sometimes you may seem like a jerk for doing so, but a stand needs to be taken.
I lived in London in the early 1970s for a while when the IRA was bombing public buildings. I spent a considerable amount of time going in and out of Parliament doing my dissertation research and regularly had my bags inspected and so forth. All these measures seemed reasonable given the actual threat IRA bombings posed.
Yet I don't recall any political party at the time advocating anything like the extensive state surveillance apparatus that has been implemented in Britain over the past few years. Perhaps being back in the US I'm not as sensitive to the threat posed by al-Qaeda to the British public, but al-Qaeda doesn't seem substantially more dangerous than were the IRA in the 70's.
As a American with leftish tendencies, I find it sad to see the Labour party become the party of surveillance and represssion. It's hard to imagine the Tories would be much better. The LibDems typically stand up for personal privacy; are they the only political party now committed to the defense of individual rights in the UK today?
Or is this all a popular reaction to the fact that Britain has become even more multi-racial now than it was then? Is this really fundamentally a racist reaction?
...there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqP1aRlCZyQ
My neighbour is spying on me!
How do you mean sir?
Well, see, I was peaking out my curtain...
"By the time they had diminished from 50 to 8, the other dwarves began to suspect 'Hungry.'" -Gary Larson
The next step is to hold the "Citizen Snoopers" responsible for the activity of their neighbors.
Reading through all the comments here it shows good sides and bad sides, but the most important thing is how the justice department, and you will handle this.
Commenting on the various things I've read;
All the associations with former East block countries under the dictatorship of former USSR aren't helpful.
At that time one did get dragged to re-education camp or shot for criticizing the state because for them it was a law, or at least everybody knew it happened. In mine it's still possible to criticize the goverment, and if they started doing this the media and the peolpe would be all over it. And if this does happen in your country then it's already too late. People will already snitch upon others.
People who live in neighbourhoods with an association and rules for keeping the area around the house tidy, or even with very petty rules knew what they were going into. You buy a house there, you agree with the rules there unless they're not on paper and it's mandatory to sign it when buying the property.
Don't like the rules? I'm sure there are meetings organised where this can be discussed with reasonable arguments, else in worst case these rules can be dealt with through court.
CCTV cameras that actually help prevent (serious) crime and lower it are arguable a good thing. If there's cameras around and the crime statistics don't go down and are used for petty stuff then it's bad and you need to take action to get them removed. Do it through media, petitions, whatever, but they won't go away if nobody does anything.
This is about eye witness reports. Unless there's actual legal proof anything that has been reported falsy or out of spite can be dismissed and should be dismissed by justice, even punished by fees for individuals or removal from the group of selected "officials".
Thus, as I said, it all depends on how the people in charge will handle this source of information. They can react to every petty thing and fine indiscriminately, which would (hopefully) end with a lot of people fighting their case (in court) and they having to re-evaluate their methods.
It could also lead to people being more aware of their behaviour and act more responsible by not making a mess of public places, not bothering the neighbours late at night, in general, act less selfish and be a burden on fellow humans.
There will always be those that keep going on anyway, but that's what the justice department and laws are for, to deal with the hard cases and they will know who they are when there's a stack of complaints about them.
As with any system, if this starts to get abussed, fight it (again, maybe even in court), but do something about it. If you don't things will not get easier and you will burden the next generation with your leniency, leaving it up to then to clean up the mess, or making it worse as they don't know any better.
It is YOUR responsibility to keep the government in check, not some individual or small group of individuals.
*legal disclaimer* :-P, and this is my opinion at this time, it may change without notice. Distibuted under Creative Commons license.
Not previewed, too long to check for typos
home
I just read both the article and the retractions. A 10-year-old boy saw his 8-year-old little sister go under. He literally died trying to save her. That's Harry-fracking-Potter bravery right there, and Heaven is plus one lad tonight.
Two grown men are told two children are under the water. Wisdom is one set of eyes high, one set low. One man stays on the ground to watch the water and wave the paramedics over, one man gets in the water and prays to get lucky. You won't see squat in a pond's murk, but you sure as hell won't save anyone from the shore.
The natural inclination for good men would be for both to get in the water, and that would be a tactical mistake, since once you're in the water, you won't see bubbles and ripples.
According to all reports, both men stayed dry.
All I can imagine is that neither knew how to swim. I hope for their sake they were merely cowards. If this was just indifference, then this would be one of the few cases where I would support the death penalty.
How the hell do you NOT get in the water?
http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:y4gZpTnw4E0J:www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0717-04.htm+Operations+TIPS&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=9&gl=us&client=firefox-a
BRATTLEBORO -- Likening a new program to recruit 1 million citizen informants to Soviet-style repression, Sen. Patrick Leahy, said Tuesday he will have some tough questions for Justice Department leaders spearheading the effort.
"I find it kind of scary," Leahy told the Reformer Tuesday about the little-known Operations TIPS, the Terrorism Information and Prevention System, which is set to launch next month.
According to a government Web site, TIPS "will be a nationwide program giving millions of American truckers, letter carriers, train conductors, ship captains, utility employees, and others a formal way to report suspicious terrorist activity."
"We used to laugh at the old Soviet Union idea where everybody reported everybody else," said Leahy. " ... We don't need to have it happen here. "
The Vermont Democrat, who chairs the Senate Judiciary Committee, said he will challenge Attorney General John Ashcroft on the need for TIPS when Ashcroft appears before the committee next week.
Federal officials are releasing little information about the program. But the Web site, www.citizencorps.gov, indicates Citizen Corps is a component of the president's USA Freedom Corps program introduced by Bush in his State of the Union address in January that called on Americans to donate 4,000 hours of volunteer time.
"Citizen Corps creates opportunities for individuals to volunteer to help communities bring together a network of volunteers and first responders at the local levels," Debbie Garrett, a spokeswoman for the Federal Emergency Management Agency in Washington, told the Reformer Tuesday.
One of the five parts of the Department of Justice Program includes Operations TIPS, which the Washington Times described Tuesday as "a national reporting pilot program scheduled to start next month in 10 cities, with 1 million informants -- or nearly 4 percent of Americans -- initially participating in the program."
while ashcroft started this (and he's now gone, thank god!) the TIPS programs seems to still be covert and alive.
in the last 2 or 3 years, I've noticed a LOT of snooping by my apartment management. practically every 3 months there is some 'reason' to enter my apartment. even though I quote them calif civil code sect 1958 (which I've almost memorized, by now) they find other ways to get around it. mostly its a 'fire hazard' or 'fire inspection' which is the apartment equiv of 'think of the children' or 'terrawrist(tm) scares'. if you say 'fire hazard' you can force your way in, even without any cause or warrant. I even called a few lawyers to check on this and they advised me that, while technically I have a right to 'quiet enjoyment', the landlord can ALWAYS find local ordinances that let him come into my place.
for over 10 yrs, I've lived in peace and mostly at the same address. in the last 2-3 yrs, though, the spying has grown 10x or more.
search around for 'operation TIPS' and you will be surprised what you see. its real and its even a citizens group that CAN USE LETHAL FORCE (non-police units, mind you) if they even THINK there is a 'just cause' for homeland 'defense'.
scary shit. the UK is no place I'll ever even land at (for international trips) but the US is a close 2nd to the new world order of orwell ;(
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
The Bush Admin (composed significantly of several former Iran-Contra Reaganites) tried orchestrating something like this here in the U.S. while the Government (but seeming not the citizens) apparently were still in a panic after 9/11.
Riddle me this if it's not a "lurch" toward Big Brother (as if there's more than a step to get there in the U.K. anyway):
1) Is there anything (past or present) that prevents every ordinary citizen from reporting suspicious going on? (Without the "benefit" of a program like this.)
2) Has there been some deficiency noted in the current system of reporting suspicious things that's proven unresolvable? What's been tried?
2) Whatever opinion you have of your local police, they are highly trained to do what they do. Will the same be true for these folks?
3) What exactly is it that you see as standing in between (I'll call it) civility and abuse of such a system? Historically, it seems to take almost nothing for a system to go from benign to malignant.
-Matt
Once again the knee-jerk Slashdot crowd has missed the point entirely in favour of getting outraged at nothing.
Citizens reporting infractions is how its supposed to work. As a citizen in whatever country or political construct you're in, these are your laws that you created and continue to support, you should also be the ones to enforce them. This is how it has always been.
In 1829 Sir Robert Peel created the modern police force with the Metropolitan Police. Of course, people opposed it. He famously stated that "the police are the people and the people are the police" pointing out that the police is made up of regular citizens being paid to provide full time a function that was traditionally provided by every citizen, and that every citizen still had their role in law enforcement. Our laws are still based on this fundamental principle. Citizens arrest powers still exist. Modern policing still adds a full time component to this, and with that comes needed expertise, but there are nowhere near enough police to effectively enforce the laws without citizen reporting. I just find it so ironic that a group that usually complains about "big brother" and the actions of the government (the government you chose to create and continue to re-elect I might add) is now complaining that citizens are being asked to get involved once again.
Again, these laws are your laws that you created because you wanted society to run this way. You should expect your neighbours to follow these laws and you should follow them as well. People seem to forget that these are their own laws. They see police and law enforcement with an "us vs. them" mentality. They see it as a game to be played and that if the police are going to start getting every day citizens involved that its an unfair advantage. That's the reality though. The reality is that no one has a right to hide from the law for the sake of hiding from the law. Its not a game, laws are supposed to be followed, period. The only limitations on that are limitations on the ability for others to investigate and interfere, i.e. search authorities, detention authorities, etc. Your neighbours have always been able to watch what you do outside your home, and they always will. Either get over it or stay indoors.
--
"Karma can only be portioned out by the cosmos." - Homer Simpson [1F10]
Whilst I in no way agree with the GP, the vast majority Australians are descended from settlers from the 1800's gold rush and immigrants from post WWII (this is how Australia ended up with the largest Greek population out side of Greece). 6.5 Million of Australia's 21 million residents were immigrants from 1945 onwards (and many of them would have had kids by now)
Only 150,000 convicts were transported to Australia and most of the "transported" criminals (transportation was what the British called it) were arrested for minor crimes like theft or displaying an Irish flag (that was a serious crime back in the late 18th century). Transportation ended up being a way for the British to weaken the Irish separatist movements (by relocating their supporters who hadn't committed serious crimes) and rid themselves of the lower class. As another poster has pointed out, this only happened after the American revolution when the British could no longer send criminals to the US (trivia: more criminals were sent to the US by Britain then sent to Australia).
As for the GP, damn few Aussies would agree with him but every country has its Rednecks, this guys just (unfortunately) one of ours.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
Well I vote for STAR Ship Trooper being better than Vendetta. It was a *SCARY* and it actually had a "OK" story line. Vendetta was just a confused story nobody could understand.
As a Cuban-American I'm appalled by this. They have the same system is communist Cuba. Neighbors spy on each other and turn each other into the state authorities. Bad form.
Well, we now have giant telescreens (for the government sponsored 'games'), cameras everywhere, amateur snoopers, organisations with names like Ofwat, Ofgem (long live MiniTrue), continuous foreign wars and external threat (remember Goldstein?) and, of course, double think, quackspeak etc. at every level. Like many people, I'm leaving...before we get to the public executions.
On y va, qui mal y pense!
The nazis had the political office of Blockwart/block warden. This is just the same. I'm going to be sick now, loudly.
Nobody writes jokes in base 13. - DNA
hmm so from Yr1 to Yr 12, $20000 py, is $240,000 as a rough rough guess, probly goes up 10% yearly because schools dont hire competent accountants.
Id rather send my kids to a cheap average school, spend a bit more on tutors twice a month. Save the rest in a good fund account, and give them the $240,000 when they turn 18. Thats a better start than $500k in debt to the family.
Besides im sure google will give better education in a few years with a virtual google teacher in 3d. Face it... computers can do better. Add a 3d avatar teacher with attitude and proper scoring, and fairness with monetary awards, it will scaled better than $80000 teachers which do mostly nothing more than hand out pieces of paper, and talk and write stuff on a board, all things a computer can do.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
Well I vote for STAR Ship Trooper being better than Vendetta. It was a *SCARY* and it actually had a "OK" story line. Vendetta was just a confused story nobody could understand.
Wow. Those two films were composed with 180 degree opposite intentions. I can't tell if you're writing with an eye toward the ironic or not, but Starship Troopers was written by Heinlein, a confirmed supporter and fan of the Vietnam war who would have no doubt been cheering Team Bush. --At least based on where his head was when he wrote Starship Troopers.
V for Vendetta was written by a guy who would have been beaten up by cops at the RNC this week, were he daft enough to be out on the streets protesting rather than doing the same thing a few thousand times more effectively through the writing of comic books.
But seriously. . , you're yanking my leg, right?
-FL
It is very fashionable to drag out every tiny thing "The Government" does and talk about Big Brother without even trying to understand what it is all about and why it might be a good idea.
One of the big problems in modern society is that people don't give a shit about their society - they don't vote, they dump rubbish out of the car window when they drive along etc. Nobody cares enough to take even a tiny amount of responsibility for what happens around them. I UK we have a lot of beautiful, narrow, twisted country lanes with high hedges on each side; except that each and every one has been used for fly-tipping; a walk in certain areas means wading thigh-deep through dog shit, and so on, and so on.
Perhaps these initiatives are not the best way - who knows? But a lot of things would be a lot better if people cared about each other and about the society they live in.
Blah blah blah privacy blah blah blah dictatorship.
Sure, all the 20-somethings and privacy freaks come out of the woodwork because they despise the idea that someone is keeping an eye on them (some "parent issue" or delayed need to desperately assert their independence).
Frankly, however, there's a reasonable argument that many of the petty troubles in our society - from juvenile transgressions to the more serious things they grow into - stem from anonymity. Back when snoopy Mrs Parker or Old Man Smith was always watching what happened on their streets, and instantly phoning parents when little Jimmy or little Sue was breaking streetlights or spraying graffiti (before it was considered art), there was a natural brake on youthful behavior and more immediate consequences.
And it's not just kids. They'd also talk to their neighbors when they see creepy Mr. Jones always pulling over in his car to talk to little Peggy Ann at the playground. Does that mean Mr Jones is a pedo? No, but the knowledge that someone, somewhere is watching is going to make sure Mr Jones keeps his paws to himself and always conducts himself with a modicum of restraint, regardless.
Just about anyone who lives in a strongly-defined 'neighborhood' or in a small town will agree (except the kids, some of whom find it predictably 'oppressive'). This near-omnipresent watch system doesn't absolutely prevent people from doing bad things (as any kid will confirm) but it does add a hurdle to bad behavior, forcing kids perhaps to think for a moment before they act....and giving most kids the chance to think first usually means their conscience can come into play.
-Styopa
Yes the UK is our leader in surveillance and patronizing of the population. Come and be reeducated for the better of everybody.
"Rosa was not actively seeking conflict. "
Oh really?
I don't think anyone who reads that could claim she wasn't lloking for conflict, and your assertion otherwise demonstrates that you need to educate yourself further about the subject before speaking.
To quote LongNoi "QZTR was right and won't leave me alone because I called him a moron when I was wrong" FYS
No. Not the Internal Revenue Service. The Irsih Republican Army used violence against people whom they consider colonial masters. The means is certainly debatable.
The results: UK had >2 decades of experience with domestic political violence. It's only recently cooled down. Having such a handy threat makes it very easy to increase police power and sell politcal demagoguery.
... so can the government.
Except the gov't spin would be more like "People wear tinfoil hats to cover up evil thoughts. Wouldn't want THAT in your neighbourhood, would you??"
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
You put yourself in an impossible situation, dumbass. There's no Catch-22, it's just that if you want to buy a car that someone (e.g. the vendor, whether new or second-hand is irrelevant) has not already taxed, it's up to you to keep it off-road. So it's a very simple equation:
1. You can't buy an untaxed car unless you have somewhere off-road to keep it while you sort out the papers.
2. You bought an untaxed car without having somewhere off-road to keep it while you sorted out the papers.
3. DUR!!
It was entirely your own stupid fault and the consequences were completely predictable if you had bothered to think about what you were doing for just five seconds, but clearly you didn't, or you realised the problem but just kidded yourself that it would somehow magically "not count" or "all just be ok". Well no surprise, you were wrong. How do you manage to walk up the street without bumping into lamp-posts if you're that short-sighted?
So a shitty neighbour grassed you up, so what? Could just as easily have been a traffic warden walked past. Could have been a copper. Could have been a council environmental health officer. Any number of people. You didn't have any plan to hide it from any of those people, after all.
Grown men, on the other hand, are expected to have the strength and courage to take risks when the situation calls for it.