The Electronic Bastille

smooth wombat writes "Imagine a database whose aim is to centralize and analyze data on people aged 13 or above who are active in politics or labor unions, who play a significant institutional, economic, social or religious role, or who are 'likely to breach public order.' At first glance one might think the country in question is Russia or Zimbabwe but the truth is, it's a democratic nation which is implementing this database. Specifically, France. Now, with the summer break over and as the people of France return to work, there is a small but growing movement to storm this electronic Bastille. Michel Pezet, a lawyer and former member of a body charged with protecting French citizens from electronic prying, had this to say about this new data-gathering law: 'The Edvige database has no place in a democracy. There is nothing in the decree that sets limits or a framework. Whether the database is used with or without moderation depends only on orders from up high. The electronic Bastille is upon us.'"

Comments

Probably not a first

[jabithew]

I'd be shocked if other Western governments, or at least their security services, didn't do something similar. The CIA and MI5 have been known to do this sort of thing in the past, especially during WWII and the cold war. At least the French know about theirs.

In Britain they can take and keep your DNA if you're suspected of a crime, even if you've been acquitted. Many suspect this is why there were so many accusations of breaches of public order at this year's Notting Hill; the Met wanted the DNA of black Londoners.

Re:Probably not a first

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd be shocked if other Western governments, or at least their security services, didn't do something similar.

Yeah but only in France are the DBA's going to the guillotine.

Re:Probably not a first

[Yvanhoe]

What a lot of people suspect and what some anonymous sources acknowledge is that edvige is not something new, it is an old illegal and hidden practice that they are trying to make more transparent and legal. There has been a lot of reorganization in our intelligence agencies recently, akin to a merge between your CIA and FBI (Our president is a huge fan of all that Bush has ever made). I suspect this edvige file is a part of it. Probably a merge between two shadowy databases of the two agencies.

Now, protests are two edged swords. If protests are too loud, this file will still exist, in a concealed way, if it is not loud enough, it will be abused. I'm going to the big protest in October but at least, I must admit that admitting the existence of this file was a very positive step.

Re:Probably not a first

[vandan]

This is already quite widespread. Here in Sydney, Australia, I talked to an ASIO officer who openly admitted he was 'gathering data on activists'. He was walking around at a demo, with a digital video player and a notebook & pen, and interviewing people ( not telling them who he was ). I've also seen evidence that this data was then used to target individuals.

To those who mindlessly parrot the old "if you're not doing anything wrong, you've got nothing to worry about", I have 2 responses ( well I have more, but 2 will do for now )

1) The individuals targeted ( who were friends and comrades ) were violently attacked by riot police at a subsequent demonstration. They were arrested, roughed up, and released without charge. One was so shaken up by the experience that she pulled out of activism ( for 6 months anyway ).

2) There's a difference between what's "wrong" and what's technically against the law. There are such things as bad laws. Here in Australia, we have some VERY bad laws. There are a group of a hundred or so builders who are facing losing their homes for not being able to pay fines imposed because they had the 'audacity' to protest over unsafe working conditions, and the high number of deaths in their industry. Sounds like a valid reason to be protesting to me ... but illegal.

Re:Probably not a first

[jabithew]

Not my CIA and FBI, I'm British. :p

Interesting reply. It's nice to get this sort of thing out in the open, but the case of the British DNA database has left me feeling somewhat powerless in the grasp of an over-zealous-yet-strangely-ineffective police state (introduced by our country's socialists, I hasten to add, before people start trying to blame the right).

Re:Probably not a first

[dascritch]

Except that in France, we have an established institution (ssince 1978) , the Commission Nationale Informatique et Libertés (Nat. Commission Coputers and Liberties, note the meaning plurial), that cannot be overruled by the State.

In fact, it is more than probable that Edvige wouldn't be accepted in front of the State Council. Or the European Commission.

Re:Probably not a first

[Maelwryth]

I don't know if it is the same in Australia, but over here in N.Z. half our government is made up of ex-activists, including the prime minister.
In short, our activists of today are our government of tomorrow.

Re:Probably not a first

[Hal_Porter]

Not all activists are the same though. If you look at the recent activists arrested before the RNC they were planning some serious shit -

http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news/stories/2008/09/02/anarchists_republican_convention.html

The affidavit paints a picture of a group that recruited participants from 67 cities and was intent on creating havoc.

According to the document:

* The RNC Welcoming Committee held two "pReNC" gatherings, one from Aug. 31 through Sept. 1, 2007, and another on May 3. At the first, 150 to 200 people - including one of the informants - talked about tactics to "shut down the RNC." At the second, St. Paul was divided into seven sectors for various anarchist groups to claim.

* The affidavit also talked about an "action camp" held July 31 to Aug. 3 at Lake Geneva, Minn.

* "An individual by the name of 'Henry' told the action camp group that he was throwing a liquid-filled balloon and that members of the group should stay away from the area ... because it would be very dangerous," the document said.

* Another person talked about using large puppets to conceal and transport Molotov cocktails, bricks, caltrops (devices used to stop buses and other vehicles), shields and lockboxes, the affidavit said. They also planned to throw marbles under the horses of the mounted patrol to trip the horses.

I like this bit

On Tuesday, District Judge Kathleen Gearin denied an emergency motion brought by eight plaintiffs - including at least one of those arrested - to have some of the items seized by police returned to them.

"Who should we return the urine to?" Gearin asked.

In addition to buckets of urine, investigators seized homemade devices used to disable buses and other vehicles, weapons, gas masks, flammable liquids and rags that could be used to make Molotov cocktails, computer storage devices, documents, pamphlets and banners. Some materials, such as banners and signs, were returned Monday for demonstrators to use during the protest marches. Albert Goins Sr., attorney for the plaintiffs, said they are likely to file an emergency appeal to get the rest of it back.

So the evil government did infiltrate the group and seized a bunch of stuff. But they gave back banners and signs. Then the group complained they needed the Molotov cocktails, balloons full of dangerous chemicals, bricks, caltrops, marbles and buckets of urine back!

Who should we return the urine to indeed.

Look at this pictures of 'anarchists' attacking an RNC delegates

http://img70.imageshack.us/my.php?image=photo05qi8.jpg

These people are more like the brownshirts breaking up their opponents meetings than hippies.

Re:Probably not a first

[Mornedhel]

Well the CNIL is good and all, but they really have no power whatsoever in this case.

The law from August 2004 (modifying the Loi Informatique et Libertés from 1978) states that public administrations and organisms will not need the CNIL's authorization anymore in order to create precisely such files. Private enterprises and such still need it.

What's more, the 2004 law is an adaptation of a EU directive to the French LIL laws. So basically, I have no doubts it would be accepted by the EU Commission. It's up to us now...

Re:Probably not a first

[pjt33]

introduced by our country's socialists, I hasten to add, before people start trying to blame the right

Are you saying that the Lib Dems are the puppet-master which is really responsible for Labour's legislative output?

Re:Probably not a first

[Anonymous Coward]

(introduced by our country's socialists, I hasten to add, before people start trying to blame the right)

I wish New Labour would stop giving the left a bad name. Check the political compass, Tony Blair and Gordon Brown are about as left wing as Margaret Thatcher.

Re:Probably not a first

[JCWDenton]

A specific example of this happening in the US: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO

COINTELPRO (an acronym for Counter Intelligence Program) was a series of covert and often illegal projects conducted by the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation aimed at investigating and disrupting dissident political organizations within the United States. The FBI used covert operations from its inception; however the formal COINTELPRO operations took place between 1956 and 1971.[2] The FBI motivation at the time was "protecting national security, preventing violence, and maintaining the existing social and political order." Targets included groups suspected of being subversive, such as communist and socialist organizations; people suspected of building a "coalition of militant black nationalist groups" ranging from the Black Panther Party and Republic of New Afrika, to "those in the non-violent civil rights movement," such as Martin Luther King, Jr. and others associated with the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP), the Congress on Racial Equality (CORE), and other civil rights groups; "White Hate Groups" including the Ku Klux Klan and National States' Rights Party; a broad range of organizations lumped together under the title "New Left" groups, including Students for a Democratic Society, the National Lawyers Guild, the Weathermen, almost all groups protesting the Vietnam War, and even individual student demonstrators with no group affiliation; and nationalist groups such as those "Seeking Independence for Puerto Rico."[3] The directives governing COINTELPRO were issued by FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover, who ordered FBI agents to "expose, disrupt, misdirect, discredit, or otherwise neutralize" the activities of these movements and their leaders.[4][5]

Re:Probably not a first

[Permutation Citizen]

CNIL gives you constraint when as an individual, association or company you create a database with nominative entry. You have to declare your database to the CNIL. You are not allowed to store all type of data (like political and religious affiliations). People can request to be removed from your database or know what you keep about them.

This, of course, doesn't apply to the army and police. If you ever dream to have access to the file the french national security organisation(RG: renseignements généraux) has about you, the CNIL won't help you.

I afraid all countries have this kind of database. This is not so bad in this case to publicly admit it.

Re:Probably not a first

[Yer Mum]

Most of Labour in the UK were activists too (CND, student union activists, Marxist groups, etc...).

Personally I think it's the saying absolute power corrupts absolutely still holds, and databases linked to ID and surveillance technology and like give government at least an illusion of absolute power and, in time, possibly absolute power.

Most public organisations from local, to national, to international (e.g. EU) are playing a game where one steps a little further down the road then waits for the rest to catch up.

However I have more faith in the French to make their dissent known than other countries, but they're up against the EU and other countries in the EU using the EU to do their policy laundering. In the end the EU Parliament is just window dressing and doesn't have any real power to stop this.

Re:Probably not a first

[dargaud]

That's really too bad as the Loi Informatique et Liberte (link in french) is a law meant against abusive data gathering from the state. In short, the original intent was that every entity (ministers, private companies, ...) can keep you in their files, but they are forbidden to correlate their files.

You can have a tax number, a social security number, an ID card, a driver's license, etc, but those numbers cannot be mixed in a bigger database. That was the original intent anyway, and it did prevent a lot of abuse. It was a good law while it lasted. Sob.

Re:Probably not a first

[Maelwryth]

Fella, I have just wasted 15mins of my life reading news articles trying to figure out whether there was any truth in what you were saying. None of the news stories agree with each other (including such gems as them being recruited from 67 cities (when there were 35 people)) and it turns out the afadavit (pdf warning) is attached to the request for a search warrant and has nothing to do with what was actually found when the search warrant was actioned. All the shit that has been reported sounds wonderful, but most of it was never found when the houses were searched.

I must regretfully conclude you believed this shit without ever researching it.

If I am wrong, point it out. However,I would like documentation and citations please. Not random newspaper reports.

Re:Probably not a first

[Anonymous Coward]

and even individual student demonstrators with no group affiliation;

I was in college during that time. One of the suggested acivities in my poli sci class was to attend a Communist Party meeting, just to see what went on there. However, we were supposed to get a form signed by the school stating that our attendance was a class assignment. We were supposed to keep this in a safe place, to be used if we were ever asked about why we had been seen there.

I never did attend one. I dropped the class after the third meeting when it was explained to us that we were supposed to write ten "short" papers (min. 10 pages each), one "long" paper (min. 25 pages), keep up with the Christian Science Monitor (good for political reporting, even if I was in a Catholic college), subscribe to (or read in the library) the Journal of the American Political Science Association, etc., etc., etc.

After hearing all that crap, I decided I just wanted to get one of many alternative required courses out of the way, not run for POTUS.

I had to get the drop signed off by the dean, so I told him I'd reviewed my schedule of classes and that I needed to take one class in my major that was only offered every two years, by which time I should long since have graduated.

Re:Probably not a first

[diegocn]

This kind of reminds me how French government was among the active protesters on other countries' human right record. The fact is, things are never pretty as long as there's a government, be it Chinese or French.

Re:Probably not a first

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry - New Labour has as much to do with socialism as Soviet-Union style communism has to Marxism.

Political philosophies are an excuse, a sop to the public to obscure the fact that our 'elected' politicians are in a race to sell out their people and their country. We are a resource to be branded, traded, and controlled, like cattle.

Left wing, right wing, socialist, conservative, communist, fascist, it's all bread and circuses.

Re:Probably not a first

[n dot l]

Not all activists are the same though.

That's true. I'm not going to argue with that statement.

A few nitpicks though, since I think you're (intentionally or otherwise) exaggerating this particular case:

...and buckets of urine back!

Who should we return the urine to indeed.

This particular point has been gone over several times. Two of the buckets had dirty water in them, they were being used to flush toilets because there were a lot of people staying at the house and the occupants were trying to save water. The third (the one with the urine) came from an illegal apartment with no bathroom in it (thus the bucket of piss), and the occupant of that apartment was not found to have been connected with the planned protest.

And they probably just want their buckets back.

Look at this pictures of 'anarchists' attacking an RNC delegates

As for the pictures and the affidavit, let's not forget that the violent retards around the RNC were a tiny minority of those who went out to protest. A few random idiots at a protest doesn't constitute a long-running, organized, nation-wide campaign of intimidation, no matter what color clothing the asshats are wearing.

Re:Probably not a first

[jimicus]

an over-zealous-yet-strangely-ineffective police state (introduced by our country's socialists, I hasten to add, before people start trying to blame the right).

It should be pointed out here for those who are not from the UK, that while the Labour party has historically been broadly socialist, their policies have been drifting to the right for some time and they haven't really been socialists for at least 15 years.

Re:Probably not a first

[Anonymous Coward]

When did the socialists get elected?

Re:Probably not a first

[Da Fokka]

In which way was Hitler a liberal? There are many varieties of liberalism but all varieties share the idea that as a general rule of thumb, the smaller the government is, the better. Hitlers regime was in no way an example of a small government.

Re:Probably not a first

[Da Fokka]

In the Netherlands an MP just had to resign because he was responsible for publishing the names and addresses of public servants of the ministry responsible for keeping track of potential locations of nuclear power stations. They were consequently threatened by left-wing activists.

Re:Probably not a first

[Fred_A]

What a lot of people suspect and what some anonymous sources acknowledge is that edvige is not something new, it is an old illegal and hidden practice that they are trying to make more transparent and legal. [...] I'm going to the big protest in October but at least, I must admit that admitting the existence of this file was a very positive step.

It does indeed seem that this is nothing more than the opening to a larger audience (of police forces) of the existing DCRI (a mix of the two former intelligence agencies) database. This includes some rather detailed stuff on anyone who has had any kind of political / syndicate activity, etc.
It's probably better if it's in the open but safeguards on its use would be very welcome as well.

Re:Probably not a first

[I confirm I'm not a]

I believe our anonymous comrade's point was that the relationship New Labour have with socialism is that they mention it in their constitution. The idiom is akin to "chocolate is to dieting as water is to fire-starting". Or "Darling is to fiscal prudence as Thatcher was to industrial relations".

Re:Probably not a first

[denzacar]

They also planned to throw marbles under the horses of the mounted patrol to trip the horses.

I got to write this one down.

Too bad nobody rides horses around here any more. Damn you civilization!

Re:Probably not a first

[Da Fokka]

Hitler never claimed to be a liberal either. Or am I confusing Hitler of the NSDAP with Hitler of the the NLDAP?

Re:Probably not a first

[LEMONedIScream]

Question: is the New Zealand government a good or bad one in your opinion?

I'm actually a bit lost as to what you're saying; are you suggesting all people in the government are bad? Or was it just a statement with nothing meant by it?

Surely, wouldn't it make more sense to become a politician if you're an activist then?

Anyway, direct democracy for the win!

Re:Probably not a first

[I confirm I'm not a]

Correct; Hitler never claimed to be a liberal. the AC's quote was "New Labour [isj.org.uk] are to socialism what Hitler was to liberalism!" The point they were making was that Hitler wasn't a liberal; New Labour are not socialist. I apologise for muddying the waters by trying to explain it to you.

Re:Probably not a first

[Anonymous Coward]

What a lot of people suspect and what some anonymous sources acknowledge is that edvige is not something new, it is an old illegal and hidden practice that they are trying to make more transparent and legal.

The RG (Renseignements Généraux) database was neither illegal or hidden practice. Edvige is the old RG database + under 16 people + the right to record sexual orientation (why they need that?).

The big problems with edvige are:
- the records are potentially never deleted,
- acces control (the database is available for consultation with minimal control to any police officer)
    When I was 16, the pastor of my parents inform my mother that there was a note about me at gendarmerie. I wonder how a pastor can have access to this kind of information.

Re:Probably not a first

[Anonymous Coward]

In which way was Hitler a liberal?

He wasn't; thus mirroring the relationship between New Labour and socialism.

Re:Probably not a first

[PopeRatzo]

You Europeans are just beta testing it for U.S.

The most interesting part of this is that this and other projects like it were begun before 9/11 and other large scale attacks.

Re:Probably not a first

[Da Fokka]

Ah I see. I was confused by the fact that the Labour party does claim to be a (democratic) socialist movement.

Re:Probably not a first

[Anonymous Coward]

You've got to admit the people who advocate limited government (i.e. libertarians) are on to something here. The more power and revenue at the disposal of those in power, the more likely oppression and conformity will prevail over liberty and human rights.

Logically, they can't oppress without the means to do it. I'd go as far as to say the relation between liberty and the size of government is directly proportional. Unfortunately there is no option for those who believe in limited governemnt, because no limited government exists in the world today. Today's governments are richer and more powerful than ever, and expanding in power and revenue every year.

Re:Probably not a first

[Ragzouken]

Well that's just taking the piss.

Re:Probably not a first

[Yetihehe]

Yeah but only in France are the DBA's going to the guillotine.

Like "TRUNCATE `admin`;" perhaps?

Re:Probably not a first

[I confirm I'm not a]

They can claim to be whatever they want, but they are no longer socialist. The "democratic socialist" claim was a sop to appease members disgusted at the ditching of Clause 4, and even then it was added only reluctantly by Blair.

New Labour under Blair openly looked to Thatcher for its role model. Internal debate about repealing anti-union laws was suppressed. I tore up my party membership card in 1996 and voted Labour for the last time in 1997.

Re:Probably not a first

[Hal_Porter]

This guy is the brother of Monica Bicking, one of the RNC 8

http://mugshot.org/visit?post=yBnDZHTk35dZWx

Violence?

Reports have come out about violent protest. First, I want to talk about the facts related to this:

Actual incidents are often exaggerated or fabricated. For instance, in the case of the home raids things like paint, bottles, and rags were labeled as "the ingredients for making Molotov cocktails". Iâ(TM)m sure every reader of this post has sufficient ingredients to make a Molotov cocktail. Also, many people have hatchets, bricks, and other materials. Buckets of urine were particularly attention-grabbing, but the only reason for these was that one of the houses had a broken toilet. The police interpretation of the confiscated material is not credible.

There have also been reports of violence at the protests themselves. First it should be noted that there are no reports of police or bystanders being injured. I personally find it is hard to classify property damage as "violence". If you don't include property damage then there doesn't seem to be much evidence of violence.

Protest is confrontational. Some will suggest that protesters should obey police in all situations. They suggest that protesters should obey all laws and only protest where permitted. They suggest protesters should not be disruptive of anyone else. The result would not be protest. In cases like the RNC, where extensive planning was in place to counter protest, non-confrontational protest means protesting according to someone elseâ(TM)s plans, someone who has no desire for the protest to succeed in any way. Once you confront the police, there will be violence â" usually by the police. And sure, you can stand with a flower in your hand and get a face full of pepper spray, and of course many people choose that course. Itâ(TM)s a noble choice, but I canâ(TM)t fault people for making other tactical decisions.

Another protesting tactic is the "black bloq", typically a group of people who try to attract the attention of the police, often through property damage. If the police have nothing better to do, then why not pin down the peaceful protesters and direct them where they can make the least impact? People in the black bloq will try to keep this from happening. Itâ(TM)s unlikely they were at all successful at the RNC as it was so thoroughly militarized. You could debate whether this is a good strategy (and there is lots of debate about this), but probably few people outside activists have any idea that there even is any underlying strategy.

Also, if you wonder why protesters, especially the anarchists, dress the way they do, it is primarily defensive. If you are going to get teargassed and peppersprayed does wearing a handkerchief seem so odd? And if they are tracking people to preemptively arrest, all the more reason to be as anonymous as possible.

So he says the police did find buckets of urine and Molotov cocktail components but they were there for legitimate reasons. And he admits "black bloq" anarchists damage property, which is true.

http://img70.imageshack.us/my.php?image=photo03ws9.jpg

He denies that police were attacked

http://img510.imageshack.us/my.php?image=photo07xh5.jpg
http://img372.imageshack.us/my.php?image=photo06tb3.jpg

or bystanders

http://img70.imageshack.us/my.php?image=photo05qi8.jpg

which is not. You can't make Molotovs out of paint either. But amongst all the spin and lies to get his sister off the hook he does admit the police found the stuff your affidavit says they were searching for.

Re:Probably not a first

[Da Fokka]

I did not know about it but you are right, the new version lacks the distinct socialist feel of the original version.

I'm a liberal (not in the American sense) so both versions have little appeal to me. But I do believe that a democracy works best when minority opinions are represented as well in the parliament. Do you still vote?

Re:Probably not a first

[I confirm I'm not a]

Hell yeah! I'm not in the UK at the moment, so ironically I *will* be voting Labour the next time I vote (New Zealand Labour, not *quite* as bad as New Labour). In the UK it would depend on which parties were standing - last General (UK) Election I probably should have voted Liberal Democrat, as they were quite close to beating Labour (I lived in a relatively safe Labour stronghold). The most recent election I voted in was to the Scottish Parliament; I had two votes - constituency and list (Scottish Parliament elections are "Mixed Member Proportional", as is New Zealand) - and voted in both - a range of parties on the list, and a totally different party for the constituency. In the end, the party that one in Holyrood (the SNP) was one I hadn't voted for...

Re:Probably not a first

[Beyond_GoodandEvil]

Too bad nobody rides horses around here any more. Damn you civilization!

Well it may not be civilized, but here is an article describing the return of mounted police unit to Philadelphia, Pa. And here is a broader list.

Re:Probably not a first

[bigstrat2003]

The most interesting part of this is that this and other projects like it were begun before 9/11 and other large scale attacks.

Did anyone ever seriously believe that 9/11 was anything more than a pretext for grabbing more power? They don't actually give a damn about the event, but it makes it convenient for them to satisfy their control lust.

Re:Probably not a first

[Anonymous Coward]

the Met wanted the DNA of black Londoners.

The police want *everyone's* DNA (and fingerprints etc..). We are all suspects.

Re:Probably not a first

[Da Fokka]

I know very little about UK politics but I am surprised by your vote on the Liberal Democrats. Was this a vote against labour? The LibDems are much closer to my own party D66 (dutch liberal democrats) and as far as I know they are no big fans of socialism. Or was it another issue or the way Labour operates?

Re:Probably not a first

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

New Labour are an interesting (and scary) paradox: as you say, many of their policies are clearly traditional right-wing territory, yet they still raise taxes and hand out money like left-wing socialists. It's hard to imagine a worse combination.

Re:Probably not a first

[Yungoe]

In Britain they can take and keep your DNA if you're suspected of a crime, even if you've been acquitted.

They can now do this in the People's Republic of Maryland as well. DNA samples are collected at time of arrest, with out charges actually being filed.

Press release from MD State Police

Story of protest from the Baltimore

Re:Probably not a first

[maxume]

Horses are often used for crowd control -- they are huge (and thus intimidating).

Re:Probably not a first

[TheRaven64]

So, you're in favour of attacks on activists then, since it reduces the number of politicians we have to worry about in the future?

Re:Probably not a first

[sm62704]

Not my CIA and FBI, I'm British. :p

Ah, yes, Mr. Bond, we know about MI5's friends across the pond.

Re:Probably not a first

[sa1lnr]

"(introduced by our country's socialists, I hasten to add, before people start trying to blame the right)."

New Labour are socialists? Don't make me laugh.

Labour were socialists.

Blairite New Labour were never socialists.

Re:Probably not a first

[((hristopher _-*-_-*]

Mate, I just read through that afadavit and I can't understand your position that this is no truth in those stories.

All the information in that story that talks about relates to the information already gathered by under cover ops, and public domain (information from public videos and written intent on the website) over the course of time before any search.

I personally think those stories did not blow anything out of proportion, nor obscure the truth.

For documentation, I just like to point you back at the original links, the afadavit is a pretty strong source to verify the stories.

Re:Probably not a first

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a mad world..

Re:Probably not a first

[KGIII]

Hmm... Leaving room for Igor to gather it so that a mad scientist can do a left join? (Best I could think of at the time of day.)

Re:Probably not a first

[Anonymous Coward]

NZ is better than Australia in many residents. I'm currently in Australia and it's a country full of followers and do-gooders doing what they are told. Generalization of course.

It seems, the larger the population, the more the system takes effect. The larger the system, the smaller the percentage of activist because for the most part, people just follow, thereby growing the system's mass.

Re:Probably not a first

[Anonymous Coward]

In Britain they can take and keep your DNA if you're suspected of a crime, even if you've been acquitted.

In England & Wales only. If you are acquitted you can have it removed, but only after jumping through hoops (i.e. the courts). There were some vague mumblings about moving to a system similar to Scotland, where DNA is only retained if you are convicted, but given Labour's track record it probably wont happen.

Re:Probably not a first

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems to me that this is all about some very wealthy families(up top) attempts to contain and control their working populace with databases and operations to squelch their cries for help.
If that's true, our gods are very sinister.

-anonymous

Re:Probably not a first

[russotto]

In short, our activists of today are our government of tomorrow.

Which simply leaves them in a better position to understand the weaknesses of the new activists, and crush them to prevent a repeat of history.

That's why most forms of activism are no longer a viable means to change things -- the government has adapted to the tactics.

Re:Probably not a first

[drsquare]

Tony Blair and Gordon Brown are about as left wing as Margaret Thatcher.

Then explain my tax bill, and the number of people on benefits or public sector pay. Both have gone up under this 'conservative' government.

Re:Probably not a first

[ThisNukes4u]

Not too dissimilar to Republicans since Bush in America.

Re:Probably not a first

[Sique]

The definition of a liberal in the U.S. is at odds with the definition of a liberal virtually anywhere else.
The Austrian Liberal Party (Freiheitliche Partei Ã-sterreichs) is extremely rightwing, has "homeland" written everywhere, fights tooth and nail against any form of immigration, paints itself as protecting family values and being tough on crime.

Re:Probably not a first

[Sique]

He had to shrive a police officer?

Re:Probably not a first

[Sique]

And they can move relative easily in a crowd which a car can not. And the policemen riding a horse have a nice view over the crowd. And they can't be easily attacked from below. And. And. And.

Re:Probably not a first

[Anonymous Coward]

Except that this institution is only consultative, has no power of any sort, and has failed badly on similar cases. Halas, France is turning in a repressive and liberticide country (no more liberty, no more equalty and fraternity is in bad shape). If this trend goes on, i am seriously contemplating leaving for a real free country.

Europe is a poor shield against that, because Europe is already ill (examine recent Great Britain, Germany, Spain security laws and you will understand what i mean).

Re:Probably not a first

[magpie]

Actually the retention of DNA of suspects is only true in England and Wales. They have to destroy it in Scotland under most circumstances. I don't know what the deal is in NI.

Re:Probably not a first

[mpeskett]

It would seem they're also incompetent.

Re:Probably not a first

[no1home]

And VERY MUCH like Joe Lieberman, the Democrat-turned-Independent Senator: A tax & spend liberal who wants to bring religion and censorship into politics.

Re:Probably not a first

[Anonymous Coward]

Considering that Labour is the acknowledged (or at least self-styled) socialist party, while the Lib Dems cannot be called that -- no, I don't think that's what he meant.

Re:Probably not a first

[thepotoo]

if you're not doing anything wrong, you've got nothing to worry about

The simplest, most effective response to this is: if I'm not doing anything wrong, why the fuck are you using my tax money to spy on me?!

I've never yet met anyone who could argue against this.

Re:Probably not a first

[Anonymous Coward]

That's very refreshing! Just as it ought to be -- although it must be said it's easier in small countries.

Re:Probably not a first

[GnuAge]

The amphibians are laggards, as usual. Here in the "Land of the Free"® we've had main core tracking perhaps 8 million threats to national security since 1982. Every URL on their computers, every email, all electronic financial transactions, travel arrangements, its all in the database. It is not even controversial here where 9/11 taught us how dangerous Maryknoll nuns and labor activists can be. Main core evolved out of FEMA and you may recognize some of the public servants that set it up, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, David Addington. They is a cute little video about it here. Makes me proud to be Ameri-kine.

Re:Probably not a first

[Reziac]

I think the effect may be the opposite... If it's out in the open, the public will get used to it and lose their suspicions of it. But so long as it was covert, everyone knew it had to be up to no good, so remained justifiably suspicious.

Just my tinfoil hat take. Yours may fit differently. ;)

Re:Probably not a first

[Hal_Porter]

Well consider. He gets his news from sites that hate the Republicans. They all spun this story as 'peaceful protestors arrested by fascist cops'. Anyone that posted stuff that agreed got modded up. Anyone that posted stuff that disagreed got modded down. Inconvenient facts like the affidavit may appear and vex the hivemind, but some karmawhore will quickly appear and explain them away.

Chomsky would be fascinated by the way these 'anarchists' manufacture consent.

Re:Probably not a first

[Maelwryth]

"Question: is the New Zealand government a good or bad one in your opinion?"
They are stable, but if you watched them in parliament (before they starting selectively releasing their own footage) they aren't exactly role models. The New Zealand government spends a lot of time indulging itself in social engineering which is a personal hate of mine. At the same time they sometimes try and get things right, and stand for what they believe in. The best I can say for them is that they are stable. It is almost election time over here and we need a change of government. Unfortunately, we might get it.

"I'm actually a bit lost as to what you're saying; are you suggesting all people in the government are bad? Or was it just a statement with nothing meant by it?"
No, I am not suggesting that all people in government are bad. The activists of today should be the leaders of tomorrow.

Surely, wouldn't it make more sense to become a politician if you're an activist then?
Yes, I does. I think if anything, the problem lies in the systems. And no-one seems to be questioning those.

Re:Probably not a first

[Anonymous Coward]

Socialists?? Noo Labour? Hahahahahaaa.... boy have you fallen for the Daily Mail/News International spin!

Blair is merely a continuation of Thatcherite politics by other means. He's a fan of hers! Refs: Berlusconi, the Economist, the use of the same language in Parliament, Simon Jenkin's book: Thatcher and Sons, Political Quarterly Vol 72, etc.etc.etc. And his policies (eg:PPI) were just a continuation of right-leaning conservatism. Utterly un-socialist as you could get.

Re:Probably not a first

[Maelwryth]

No, I think we should encourage activism. This would give us a greater range of politicians to choose from. We need people who believe in things. We need people to look at us and point out the flaws in our thinking. The greatest dangers in life are the things you think are true, and the things you don't know.

Re:Probably not a first

[HuguesT]

I wasn't aware that the conservative wished to cut taxes. Remember Thatcher's poll tax ?

Re:Probably not a first

[HuguesT]

Nobody went with the line :

ah, but others, maybe not you, are doing some wrong, we know this because crimes happen and we only catch on average 50% of perpetrators. Now we need to watch everybody in order to catch those. Do you prefer to be mugged or to be safe?

Re:Probably not a first

[HuguesT]

The conundrum, however, is that things are even worse when there is no government. Civil war anyone?

Re:Probably not a first

[Britz]

"The Left" doesn't need Tony Blair for a bad name:
20th century Man-made Megadeaths # TOTAL: 92M deaths by Communism. # RESIDUE: 96M deaths by non-Communism. So according to this website (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat8.htm) Communism ist to blame for about half the major losses of life of the 20th century.

I believe "Left" and "Right" to be more of historical than political relevance and actually cloud current political issues at hand. Many times they are used for exactly that reason.

Re:Probably not a first

[I confirm I'm not a]

I didn't actually vote Lib Dem - I voted Scottish Scoialists, IIRC. But in hindsight a vote for the Lib Dems would have been a pure protest vote against Labour. By the same token, a number of my friends have recently voted for the Scottish National Party purely as an anti-Labour vote - Labour actually lost a bye-election in Glasgow recently, which I suspect is not entirely unrelated ;-)

The Lib Dems in the UK aren't necessarily anti-socialists; historically they've entered into pacts with socialists - the first socialists in parliament stood as Lib/Lab candidates - and the first "purges" in the Labour party were against Liberals! I just see the Lib Dems as being more progressive than Labour. It does depend, however - where I live is basically a one-party state (recent bye-elections not-withstanding...) but in parts of the country where Labour have strong competition they can be quite decent.

Re:Probably not a first

[Anonymous Coward]

Not "probably". It's scarier when a domestic law enforcement agency (like MI5 or FBI) collect this kind of info than when a foreign intelligence service does it (CIA, MI6). The bad new is: when these law enforcement agencies refer to "terrorists", "spies", or "criminals" they're talking about never-convicted, merely-suspected-by-some-white-guy terrorists, etc. Every phone call and unencrypted email message could be read by someone as trustworthy as your last ex-girlfriend. The only thing that is actually preserving our freedoms of speech and movement is that correlating these quantities of data is still a challenge. Not for long.

Check out:
http://security.blogs.techtarget.com/2007/08/29/fbis-dcs-3000-wiretap-system-exposed-to-the-light-of-day/
http://www.wired.com/politics/security/news/2007/08/wiretap
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/30/terror/main1949643.shtml

Re:Probably not a first

[Atlantis-Rising]

Look at the US Republicans. Do you think they're left wing too?

Re:Probably not a first

[jabithew]

Oh please. Labour have increased taxes, introduced more pay for the public sector, expanded the public sector, introduced minimum wage and increased benefits. They've part-nationalised the railways, nationalised a bank and look for all the world as though they're about to nationalise mortgages. If that's not a left-wing agenda, what the hell is?

Besides, the Lib Dems under Clegg/Cable are Liberal, not left. They just agree with personal freedom, which bizarrely makes them perceived as left-wing (even more bizarre since Labour has created one new criminal offence for every day they've been in office).

Re:Probably not a first

[jabithew]

I had one more thought about this; as one scheme goes out in the open, a new one will be forming in the shadows. Accountability is not what these people want.

Re:Probably not a first

[drsquare]

Taxes have gone up 100% under Labour and all blown on the bloated public sector, that doesn't strike me as particularly conservative.

Private enterprise is so much more efficient

[David Gerard]

If they were the US, they'd just license it from Google.

(If they were the UK, they'd probably license it from Microsoft.)

Re:Private enterprise is so much more efficient

[Anonymous Coward]

Nah. In the UK we pay EDS an outrageous amount of money to fuck it up, then get something 10 years late and 20 times over budget.

The only positive thing about UK ID card scheme is that the companies tasked with implementing the database couldn't organise a pissup in a brewery. If it was ever going to work I would be scared.

Re:Private enterprise is so much more efficient

[Anonymous Coward]

The only positive thing about UK ID card scheme

You're mistaken, there is nothing positive about the NID.

Re:Private enterprise is so much more efficient

[Anonymous Coward]

No one can organise a piss up in a brewery. At least not in a brewery that wants to stay in business.

Re:Private enterprise is so much more efficient

[xaxa]

No one can organise a piss up in a brewery. At least not in a brewery that wants to stay in business.

I've been invited to a piss-up in a brewery before. I didn't go, I don't like beer, but the people who did go had fun.

Re:Private enterprise is so much more efficient

[Anonymous Coward]

You're a fool. Those implementing the ID database and accompanying system rely on comments like yours to distract from more effective opposition.

If it doesn't work first time round, you can be sure that they will learn enough to make it work next time round.

Keep making the humorous remarks and faintly sarcastic comments and the database will be operational soon enough.

Re:Private enterprise is so much more efficient

[Anonymous Coward]

No one can organise a piss up in a brewery. At least not in a brewery that wants to stay in business.

My wife** before she met me went to several brewery piss ups with her ex. They were called 'tastings' but allowed drinking of unlimited amounts in (say) an hour.

** Yes, I know, "slashdotters don't have wives" etc.

Re:Private enterprise is so much more efficient

[TheRaven64]

Nah. In the UK we pay EDS an outrageous amount of money to fuck it up, then get something 10 years late and 20 times over budget.

I strongly disagree with this. There is no evidence that EDS have ever managed to deliver a product, even 10 years late. They keep getting government contracts though, because they have lots of experience with government contracts. I'm still in two minds about this. On the one hand, I don't like to see the government wasting so much money. On the other hand, I don't like to see the government being too efficient. Personally, I'd like to see the EU establish a BuSab to take care of this kind of thing.

Re:Private enterprise is so much more efficient

[IDtheTarget]

Actually, in the United States there are already private companies that gather all of this information and offer it for sale. I know this for a fact, as in my civilian job I work for a state law enforcement agency that purchases this product for criminal intelligence investigations.

I can't remember the name of the service we use, and I'm in Iraq so I can't go down the hall to ask our any of our intelligence analysts what the software is, I just recall that they output information in a format that works with Analyst Notebook (tm).

Re:Private enterprise is so much more efficient

[qc_dk]

I totally agree. Could you send me your full name and address and I'll add you to the secret EU dissident datab.. umm subscribe you to our newsletter?

I also think Gowachin law would be a fantastic cure for the US legal system. If every ambulance chaser risked being eaten alive by a wreave, that problem would be gone in seconds. And added bonus, court tv would be infinitely more entertaining:

"Your honour, I have demonstrated that the extension of copyright is directly in conflict with original purpose of the law set down in the constitution and against the common good. I therefore pronounce Congress 'innocent' and get to throw this trident through your spleen. Have a nice day."

Re:Private enterprise is so much more efficient

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course, Noo Labour privatised the bulk of the Civil Service by handing it over to EDS in the fond illusion that it would all go so much more efficiently (ie: cheaper).

Re:Private enterprise is so much more efficient

[Raenex]

Why use tinyurl if you're using a named link? It just hides useful information.

nothing to see move along

[Anonymous Coward]

The summary is totally misleading. Each and every country has a political police and it is important for establishing public order. The debate in France is not about the need of this database, which is considered obvious since it is a very old one. In fact we speak about it because of a reorganizing of the french police which imply a reorganizing of databases.
There is a problem because there are two informations which many do not accept to be stored :sexual orientation and health. The governement says they will be stored exceptionally, but has not succeeded in convincing that it will not be misused. But it is quite unlikeliy that it will be changed, since there is a strong support in the population.

Re:nothing to see move along

[Yvanhoe]

political activities and friends as well. Plus a physical description that will not forget skin color. People also complain that 13 is a low age to be inside an intelligence gathering database.

Re:Sorry...

[Jedi Alec]

To be honest if there's one country I'd expect to actually get out of their chairs and protest in the streets over this, it's the french.

Re:Sorry...

[johndmartiniii]

Well, they wouldn't necessarily get out of their chairs in protest, but they might raise a glass from a seated position in a sidewalk cafe in protest.

Sounds good

[YourExperiment]

People who are "active in politics... play a significant institutional, economic, social or religious role... 'likely to breach public order.'"?

So that would be a database of politicians, CEOs and cult leaders then? So long as this database is freely accessible to all on the net, it sounds like a great idea to me.

Re:Sounds good

[w3c.org]

Well I doubt if it's the case. In my opinion, it'll be a growing database of youngsters living mainly in residencies, the 'jeunes des cités' that every journalist talk about on the news. It'll be accessible only to cops and immigration police. But it gets worse: teachers are asked, in schools, to 'help complete the database' by giving every information about every children (country of origin, parents' nationality, everything), to help prevent immigration and to help track the 'sans-papiers' (people who just immigrated in France ans don't already have IDs, or people who just have their IDs discarded).

Re:Sounds good

[Anonymous Coward]

Well I doubt if it's the case. In my opinion, it'll be a growing database of youngsters living mainly in residencies, the 'jeunes des cités' that every journalist talk about on the news. It'll be accessible only to cops and immigration police.
But it gets worse: teachers are asked, in schools, to 'help complete the database' by giving every information about every children (country of origin, parents' nationality, everything), to help prevent immigration and to help track the 'sans-papiers' (people who just immigrated in France ans don't already have IDs, or people who just have their IDs discarded).

Well I doubt if it's the case. In my opinion, it'll be a growing database of youngsters living mainly in residencies, the 'jeunes des cités' that every journalist talk about on the news. It'll be accessible only to cops and immigration police.
But it gets worse: teachers are asked, in schools, to 'help complete the database' by giving every information about every children (country of origin, parents' nationality, everything), to help prevent immigration and to help track the 'sans-papiers' (people who just immigrated in France ans don't already have IDs, or people who just have their IDs discarded).

smooth asset managment
www.safeasset.org

Re:NWO

[Anonymous Coward]

What does Hulk Hogan have to do with anything?

Not just the original person but all friends.

[will_die]

In addition to the person who is concidered to possibly being a threat the database will contain all relatives and people who contact with the person except for in a one-time only type relationship.
The information stored will contain "civil status and occupation; physical addresses, phone numbers, email addresses; physical characteristics, photographs and behaviour; identity papers; car plate numbers; fiscal and patrimonial information; moves and legal history"

Re:Not just the original person but all friends.

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe sexual orientation is to be included also.

Re:Not just the original person but all friends.

[kvezach]

You know, there once was an organization that compiled this kind of extensive information. What was its name, you wonder? Das Ministerium fur Staatssicherheit.

Re:Not just the original person but all friends.

[jmhoule314]

Fix your sig. It's 'than' not 'then'.

Re:Not just the original person but all friends.

[josiebgoode]

Yes, but only "a titre exceptionnel" (unusual circumstances). It will be the same for the health condition. So, straight people in good health should not be worried.

Re:Not just the original person but all friends.

[hey!]

Various social critics in the tradition of Focault (Michel, not Leon) have been predicting this kind of thing for years.

Starting more or less from first principles, they predicted that attempts to collect information on private individuals will tend to expand regardless of how useless or even counterproductive those efforts are. These kinds of things only stop growing when they get large enough to encounter some practical limitation. It might be budget, it might be technology, or it might even be people taking to the streets to protest.

Re:Not just the original person but all friends.

[RPoet]

Straight people in good health are never worried. Duh.

Re:Not just the original person but all friends.

[retchdog]

Largely because being worried is more and more being considered a mental illness.

Re:Not just the original person but all friends.

[HTH NE1]

I'm so worried about what's happening today in the Middle East, you know,
And I'm so worried about the baggage retrieval system they've got at Heathrow.

I'm so worried about the fashions today: I don't think they're good for your feet;
And I'm so worried about the shows on TV that sometimes they want to repeat.

I'm so worried about what's happening today, you know,
And I'm worried about the baggage retrieval system they've got at Heathrow.

I'm so worried about my hair falling out and the state of the world today,
And I'm so worried about being so full of doubt about everything, anyway.

I'm so worried about modern technology.
I'm so worried about all the things that they dump in the sea.
I'm so worried about it, worried about it. Worried, worried, worried.

I'm so worried about everything that can go wrong.
I'm so worried about whether people like this song.

I'm so worried about this very next verse. It isn't the best that I've got,
And I'm so worried about whether I should go on, or whether I shouldn't just stop.

Re:Not just the original person but all friends.

[HTH NE1]

I'm worried about whether I ought to have stopped,
And I'm worried because it's the sort of thing I ought to know,
And I'm so worried about the baggage retrieval system they've got at Heathrow.

Re:Not just the original person but all friends.

[HTH NE1]

I'm so worried about whether I should have stopped then.
I'm so worried that I'm driving everyone 'round the bend.
I'm worried about the baggage retrieval system they've got at Heathrow.

[sobbing and sniffling]

Re:Not just the original person but all friends.

[retchdog]

Economics, Reaganomics, Birth Control, The Status Quo

Shooting rockets to the moon, kids growing up too soon

Politicians say

And the band played on

...

Eve of destruction; tax deduction; city inspectors; bill collectors

Solid Gold in demand; population out of hand; suicide

Too many bills, hippies movin' to the hills

People all over the world are dying in the war

And the band played on

...

Ball of confusion, ball of confusion

That's what the world is today, hey, hey

Re:Not just the original person but all friends.

[avandesande]

Is it really illegal to do this? Can private parties create a 'file' about 'people of interest' on their own?

I am just questioning the assumption that it is illegal for the government to aggregate public data in a way of their choosing.

People are ignorant...

[Anonymous Coward]

... I wish it wasnt' so but it is.

3...2...1...

[Anonymous Coward]

OK, let the France-bashing begin! Because we all know that all French are spineless cowards and that this would never happen in, say, the USA or the UK.

Re:Sorry...

[Anonymous Coward]

haha, what a joke about this.

French People are really good for protest, but they protest for big shit.
They don't care that Their gouvernement are watching theim.

Re:Am I going to jail?

[pisto_grih]

+1 Hilarious, and +1 even funnier twist at the end

-1 troll stroking to me tho :(

Anglo-French rivalry at its best

[rpjs]

For years now the UK has been leader in the "Western Nation Most Likely To Become A Police State" league, and the French just can't bear to be beaten by us at anything, so in one daring move they've grabbed the crown from us. Vive la France!

Re:Anglo-French rivalry at its best

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget the good old Anglo-American rivalry in that Department! They've got a very strong contender in Bush...

The French Point of view.

[ze_jua]

In fact, French police already had such files for decades (aka "le fichier des RG", the file of the inside information gathering service), but they were "secret", and it was impossible for people to know exactly what kind of information was recorded.

Then, are files of this kind of files usefull or good for Democracies ... ? usefull maybe (You never watch The Experts or NCIS ? ;) . Good ? I dont know (1984, Equilibrium, ... what else ?)

Re:The French Point of view.

[Meumeu]

You never watch The Experts or NCIS ?

For those in the rest of the world who wonder what Les Experts are, it's the french translation of CSI.

Re:The French Point of view.

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, in theory you can access to the content of your data (if any) stored in the "fichier des RG" : you request to the CNIL (Commission Nationale de l'Informatique et des Libertés -- National commission for digital data and freedoms) and you get the info... ... provided of course the "Ministre de l'Intérieur" (homeland security) agrees the released info does not threaten the security of the state...

See additional info in french about the CNIL and the RG files here : http://www.cnil.fr/index.php?id=1995 (Google [mis?]translation here: http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnil.fr%2Findex.php%3Fid%3D1995&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=fr&tl=en)

Re:The French Point of view.

[Jedi Alec]

I do indeed watch NCIS, and as much as I enjoy the show, the way it glorifies both huge databases with everything you ever wanted to know about everybody but were afraid to ask, as well as agencies blatantly overstepping their jurisdictions, perform searches without warrants etc, bothers me quite a lot.

It's fictional. I'm sure there's plenty of good people in law enforcement fighting the good fight and struggling against pesky regulations, but all it takes is one asshat abusing the information he has at his fingertips for people's lives to get permanently ruined.

Re:The French Point of view.

[FornaxChemica]

That's right, the RG (Renseignements Generaux) was a French intelligence agency which has been merged with the DST a couple of months ago. I guess they are reorganizing their agencies hence the revised database system.

Quoting the French interior minister:

Edvige will differ from the old RG file on two points only, "it will take into account underage individuals and be extended to sensitive data", such as sexual orientation.

I doubt it's different from the methods use by other countries to track potential troublemakers. What's different is that now all these decisions related to intelligence services go under public scrutiny and become all the rage among self-proclaimed champions of the civil liberties. In short, much ado about nothing.

Re:The French Point of view.

[Maelwryth]

"For those in the rest of the world who wonder what Les Experts are, it's the french translation of CSI."

Damn!

Re:The French Point of view.

[whathappenedtomonday]

It's fictional.

Well, um, yes... but then again, no! I see it as propaganda which serves to show the people what can (could) be done. It says: don't count on privacy laws or due process, we'll get you anyway. Live in fear, don't even think of wrongdoing and pray you'll never come across that one asshat abusing the information.

Repeat this over and over, show the reruns, and it'll sink in. And don't even get me started on 24, Sleeper Cell and the likes - the sheer amount of "terrorists are everywhere!" propaganda boggles the mind! If you watch it, watch closely for underlying messages and paradigms. It's brainwash, lowest rung and easy to see through. Poorly written most of the times, too.

Re:The French Point of view.

[bigstrat2003]

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is another proof that human beings have the uncanny ability to look so hard for underlying meaning, they start seeing it where it doesn't actually exist.

Re:The French Point of view.

[dascritch]

Note : "The Experts" is the translated name for "CSI".

Re:The French Point of view.

[whathappenedtomonday]

See how much money Hollywood hands out in this election campaign alone - do you think all they get in return is laws passed in favor of the industry? That no part of the mainstream media programming is influenced politically as part of a handshake deal? Good for you, then.

It's not so much about underlying meaning, but about the prevalence of certain recurring patterns and the ways they are presented. Those are popular and therefore likely to show up more often, so this is no surprise. Surprising is from what I see, that the fear/terror/threat scenario only offers one possible solution, which the tv shows always get "right" (do what is necessary at no matter what cost, not what is right or within the law since both are stretchable at will). This raises suspicion since you'd expect a certain amount of imagination on the side of the authors and thus different outcomes, but it all seems to be variations on the same theme. Also, don't underestimate the importance of Entertainment in our societies and the potential for abuse. "Pane et circenses", anyone?

Just because I'm paranoid does not mean I'm not being followed!

Re:The French Point of view.

[HTH NE1]

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is another proof that human beings have the uncanny ability to look so hard for underlying meaning, they start seeing it where it doesn't actually exist.

Is that you, Doctor?

Convincing politicians

[Tazor]

Maybe they should start using one of these again? Maybe that would convince the politicians to think again.

Re:Convincing politicians

[Nathrael]

Thinking without a head is pretty difficult, I'd say.

Re:Convincing politicians

[Fred_A]

Thinking without a head is pretty difficult, I'd say.

Would it make that much difference to a politician ?

Re:Why do the French Hate Freedom so Much?

[Anonymous Coward]

You know what AC? /me puts arm round AC's shoulders like a father explaining something to an over-enthusiastic, ignorant son.

If any of your ancestors are English, there's a good chance that you are French, or have some French blood running through your veins.

Ever heard of the Battle of Hastings in 1066? Where those 'cheese-eating surrender monkeys' sucessfully invaded England. Or the Hundred Years War, where the Frenchmen who originally invaded England got nostalgic for their old lands, decided the food in England was crap anyway, and re-invaded France.

There is a reason why around 1,600 words in the English language are French.

Ever heard of Napolean? The Frenchman that successfully invaded most of Europe, he did better against the Russians than other Westerners ever have. He, and his armies, successfully invaded Russia and occupied Moscow. We had to wait until the Soviet Union collapsed from the inside.

Here's a fun fact, these are all the French words in your post:

• pass
• terror
• war
• surrender

The reason they're there is because the French aren't as shit at fighting as you'd like to think. And since it seems that you're a Yank, you should remember who got your country freedom from the British Empire: Napoleon. Imagine, if it weren't for him, the US might have ended up like Canada.

Disclaimer: yeah I know you're being sarcastic, but some people actually believe that bullshit.

Truth:

[caliburngreywolf]

Public order is antithetical to democracy. Democracy can only be effective in a system where some social disorder is present.

Re:Truth:

[butlerdi]

Just as Capitalism only work when there are sufficient number of poor and unemployed. Democracy is the same ... Carrot and Stick ....

Re:Truth:

[gregraven]

Many things are antithetical to democracy, which is why democracy doesn't work. Never has, never will. That's why the founding fathers didn't set up the U.S. as a democracy. The situation in France is pretty bad, with nearly daily riots by "youths" -- immigrants from other countries -- claiming that the government isn't doing enough for them. These are not traditional Europeans, if you haven't guessed. Because France has committed to allowing the third world to pour across its borders (as have the U.S. elite), the only way they can respond in a PC fashion is to restrict freedoms. This is not about domestic spying: This is about Western Civilization committing suicide.

Re:Truth:

[jandersen]

Public order is antithetical to democracy.

That is manifestly untrue.

What you mean is probably that public order is antithetical to freedom; which is still a rather dubious statement. Democracy is not some magical substance that guarantees freedom or anything else - it is only a form of government that allows part of the citizens a measure of influence on the government's decision making. It is perfectly possible to imagine a democratic society where everybody is happy and feels no need for unrest. Democracy was not introduced because it looked like a bloody good idea at the time - it was introduced because it was hoped that it would help solve the problems with unrest caused by the government not representing the people.

Re:Truth:

[raddan]

You're right, the OP misses an important component: culture. The practices and traditions that shape a culture will affect how those people respond to a particular governmental framework.

For instance, compare the 18th century American revolution with the French one. Both produced roughly equivalent forms of government, but the French revolution was far more brutal, probably the result of people having long been oppressed and ruled by sometimes-incompetent monarchs. The American colonists, by contrast, had several generations to forget about why they left England, and the American revolution was much more subdued. The rhetoric used to justify each conflict was far more philosophical on the American side: it was an attempt to correct the failings of foreign governance. French rhetoric saw their fight as nothing less than emancipation of the people.

As a result, French society traditionally put more of an emphasis on government-in-service-of-the-people than American society, who see government as more of a protectorate of the state. The United States has had invasive intelligence-gathering for a long time, and I think the reason why most Americans don't care is because they still see the state as a benevolent entity. I suspect that the French do not share this opinion, especially in the case of Sarcozy.

Re:Truth:

[Awptimus Prime]

France, along with most other Western countries, is like a fire department in the middle of a forest fire who can't use water because it would be politically incorrect.

Lol, what?

Re:Truth:

[HuguesT]

Why is this modded flamebait exactly ?

Re:Truth:

[HuguesT]

It's perfectly possible to imagine a utopia but it will not necessarily happen.

I interpret the GP's meaning as a kind of Goedel statement for lawful government. It is not possible to have both a consistent and perfectly just set of laws. Therefore, even happy people with the best of intention will inevitably break the law in one way or another during their lives, either because a law will cause them an injustice, or because they will be put in a situation where they cannot do otherwise but break a law.

Since the judiciary is a necessary component of democracy, it follows that democracy and the perfect observance of the law (i.e. public order) are mutually incompatible.

To give a realistic example, think of the huge problem of filesharing at the moment. Clearly copyright law at present says that one cannot distribute content without the consent of the content owner (in short). However enforcing this law is at present pretty much impossible : it bears a high cost, and RIAA and others are trying less-than-commmendable ways with suspected filesharers to get what they think is their dues: they bully, they threaten, they spy and they bill people. Clearly we have a situation of civil unrest, both from the filesharers and the content owners.

The situation will resolve itself one way or another, in a public forum, hopefully in a democratic manner via the modification of laws that will shift the current balance towards one or the other parties. Hopefully we will see democracy in action in this instance.

However, for the democratic process to exert itself, one requires some kind of civil unrest.

Other more striking examples were the fight for civil rights in the US, MLKJ, Malcom-X and so forth ; same things for when women wanted the right to vote, etc.

Re:Truth:

[jandersen]

It is not possible to have both a consistent and perfectly just set of laws.

True - fortunately justice is not the same as "the law"; justice itself is only what people in general (ie. "on average") feel is "right" for some reason, and the law will never be more than the set of compromises that the legislators have been able to put into law. Even the best of laws will quite often not match "justice" although it will try to get close.

And public order isn't the same as obeying the law to the letter. Public order is when there is a general absence of violent conflict, and daily life works as expected, to give a not too precise definition; this is as far as I can see the natural state of any society, whether they have laws in the formal sense or not. Which incidentally is why we have to make new laws all the time; laws are only made when the need arises to regulate something, and that need only arises when people can't find a way to sort out their problems on their own without upsetting the public order.

Almost like...

[matt4077]

Sounds like wikipedia :-)

Re:Almost like...

[mmu_man]

I think you meant Facebook, LinkedIn, and other lookalikes ?

mission creep

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear World,

Please stop giving our government these ideas.

Thanks,

USA

Re:mission creep

[Anonymous Coward]

Huh.

Patriot act ??

Controlling the Islamic thugs.

[Porchroof]

More power to the database people. This will be one method of controlling those young Islamic thugs who like to terrorize Paris.

Re:Controlling the Islamic thugs.

[dargaud]

You are a racist troll, but are those "active in politics... play a significant institutional, economic, social or religious role..." ?!?

Nah, didn't think so.

Re:Am I going to jail?

[dintech]

Maybe it's some kind of David Lynch fan-fiction or possibly he's just taking his pills in the wrong order...

Re:Am I going to jail?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you've posted this on /. I'm sure you need friends.
Anyway, enjoy Bel Air!

DBA's to the power

[Anonymous Coward]

Until some pissed off DBA locks up the database, or some parent names their child a funny name http://xkcd.com/327/ ...

Thank God

[Anonymous Coward]

I live in the UK where we don't stand for this kind of nonsense.

Re:Thank God

[TheRaven64]

We'd stand - and queue - for it, we just don't have any bureaucrats competent enough to actually implement it. We'll happily spend a few million pounds of taxpayers' money trying though. Then admit in ten years time that no one can understand the schema and that the information stored in the database is so mostly wrong. We'll then spend a bit more on a public enquiry to find out whose fault it was, and then ignore the results.

Re:Thank God

[Eunuchswear]

I think you'd better have another look at the costs of the national identity register - "a few million" isn't what you're talking about there.

Sounds like...

[cca93014]

Imagine a database whose aim is to centralize and analyze data on people aged 13 or above who are active in politics or labor unions, who play a significant institutional, economic, social or religious role, or who are 'likely to breach public order.'

You mean like WalMart?

Kudus facebook comes..

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow France finally has facebook...good for them.

Re:Kudus facebook comes..

[mad flyer]

I'm all out of mod points... But sir you deserve quite some...

Re:Sorry...

[aproposofwhat]

Nos trois principes sont Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite.

Je m'excuse, nos quatre principes sont Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite, et d'etre surveille.

Entre nos principes sont...

Re:Why do the French Hate Freedom so Much?

[the_raptor]

You make valid points (I hate the constant cheese-eating-surrender-monkey jokes whenever the French are mentioned). But didn't you think that perhaps the GP was doing a parody of knee-jerk American patriotism, and not serious?

Re:Why do the French Hate Freedom so Much?

[Anonymous Coward]

Problem, and law, also come from Old French - in fact it's hard to write an English sentence without French-derived words.

from the original decree

[Anonymous Coward]

i believe "edvige" was introduced the 1st of July 2008 and not in 2004, see http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do;jsessionid=952C97B66AAC8C45F624671F93C6A89E.tpdjo07v_2?cidTexte=JORFTEXT000019103207&dateTexte=&oldAction=rechJO (in french).

moreover it does not abrogate or put an amendment to "loi informatique et liberté" (LIL1978). For a digest of the law see http://www.service-public.fr/actualites/00930.html (in french).

the main points are (my own inaccurate translation):

- Article 4: the files cannot be subject to interconnection, aggregation, or any kind of relation with other information systems or files

- the right to access its own file is granted indirectly through CNIL as stated by the LIL1978

-all data are checked and updated on a yearly basis and cannot be kept for more than 5 years

I am not a lawyer nor a jurist. I am not a big fan of this new law, but felt like playing the devil's advocate as TFA and the comments look inaccurate or incomplete. I am not working for the french government either.

Re:Why do the French Hate Freedom so Much?

[rpjs]

Magnus Magnusson always used to say that "law" was a eord we got from the Vikings.

It was the best of 74 69 6d 65 73 ,

[retech]

it was the worst of dGltZXM= .

Re:Sorry...

[mh1997]

"They don't care that Their gouvernement are watching theim." According to the French Government, 50% of the people that are employed in France, are employed by the government. This means they are watching themselves.

Re:Why do the French Hate Freedom so Much?

[Missing_dc]

I normally don't respond to ACs but I feel the need here

Disclaimer: yeah I know you're being sarcastic, but some people actually believe that bullshit.

I live an hour south of Washington DC and despite our proximity to the international culture there, I find an incredible number of people here who share his outlook. There is a really good chance he was not being sarcastic.

But since he did not have the balls to post as a real /. member, we may never know.
On the other hand, despite your excellent and informative points, it looks like you could use some balls yourself.

Re:Sorry...

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope, french people (I am one) are more willing to strike for salaries, work week duration, educational strategic changes, be paid for 15 month per year (in the Lyon public transport company) than protesting against our world record taxes on gasoline (> 80% +19.6% VAT !!!), or against our entire population filled into a database we don't know wich it will be used for.
That's it : we know, but consequences are obscure for everybody (specialized lawyers included) who don't work in government.

Moreover, the most frightening is the variety of contents in this electronic bastille :
- Political or syndical association
- Sexual orientation
- Drug abuse reports
- DNA footprint
- fingerprints
- pictures
- lot of other various data minded by police services
Of course, honest people her will say : we dont't care, we have nothing to reproach, they sucks and are totally inconscient of damage ths kind of database causes to liberty and democraty.

Unlike in the US (from our froggies point of view), here police violence and abuses is some kind of normal, and is never revealed by journalists (they work for gov too), and there are case everydays that passes.

If you were thinking the France is still a democraty, you're totally wrong !!! we are no more than other western countries, and by some ways we tend to be like eastern country called Russia.

Petition against Edvige

[Anonymous Coward]

Please, help us!
Sign the petition against Edvige!

Here

Re:Petition against Edvige

[Dareth]

You sure the petition isn't being run by Edvige themselves to help sign up demonstrators?

http://xkcd.com/250/

Re:Sorry...

[thermian]

Et uniformes rouges interessants

LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

Comparing democratic and free countries like Russia or Zimbabwe to modern totalitarian police states like Great Britain or France or USA?

That's too much even for slashdot!

Re:Why do the French Hate Freedom so Much?

[Notquitecajun]

Napoleon wasn't French. He was Corsican. He also completely changed traditional warfare. And, ummm, keep his "successfully invading Moscow" in context. IT WAS WINTER. IN RUSSIA. Not bright - and he followed the same trail going home that he took to Russia, which was "scorched earth" - had he taken a different route home, his armies may have survived through Waterloo - that was the beginning of the end for him.

And the Norman conquest is about the only victory that the French can claim on their own, and that was almost 1000 years ago.

And I think that it's safe to say that NO ONE really won the Hundred Years' War, cause they were all too stupid to give it up.

America DOES owe a debt of gratitude to the French for during the American Revolution (which was more about the French getting at the Brits than anything else), where they played a critical part in helping us gain our freedom...and then promptly screwed up in their over-zealousness in their own version of the French Revolution.

By the way, I'm part cajun (see the name). We're the ones that had the good sense to leave both France AND Canada.

New name for existing trade

[andr0meda]

I'm surprised to see US and UK people make fun comments about the French over this. US and UK governments aren't exactly known for managing their own records on their citizens with much care either.

The UK has lost, what, 400.000 personal records on it's citizens?

The US has had terrorist lists made, leaked to the press, remade, leaked again..

It's not like France is in this trade alone. Privacy is at stake in every country, including your own. Or what else do you think the War on Terror realy is, other than building databases. The only new thing here, which is truely shocking, is that the system is about minors, who have practically no means to exercise pressure on a governmental system.

Re:New name for existing trade

[pjt33]

The UK has lost, what, 400.000 personal records on it's citizens?

Try 25.000.000 in one go. Plus smaller numbers on a roughly daily basis, but no-one really knows how much overlap there is between those datasets.

Re:New name for existing trade

[NiteShaed]

I'm surprised to see US and UK people make fun comments about the French over this.

In all fairness, I don't think I've seen any articles about similar issues in the US or UK where people don't make jokes about them as well. I'm no fan of the blind (and uncreative) anti-France jokes, but the others tend to be either gallows humour shared between prisoners waiting on line together for their turn at the noose or comments that would apply to any government that institutes a database like this. In this case, that it's France is only incidental to the point of some of the jokes.

Re:New name for existing trade

[darkfire5252]

The only new thing here, which is truely shocking, is that the system is about minors, who have practically no means to exercise pressure on a governmental system.

Not shocking at all, really. You have to consider the goals of a system such as this... It obviously is tailored to contain any person who might become influential in changing the social or political order of things. As such, it's a natural extension of that to want to collect the data as early on in the life of these people as possible. The goal isn't to use the data to catch criminals, to monitor all the actions of everyone, or other nonsense; the goal is obviously to identify those that would change the social or political order so that those people can be politically assassinated (have all of their political or social influence negated) _before_ they actually change things.

Re:New name for existing trade

[andr0meda]

Not shocking at all, really. You have to consider the goals of a system such as this... It obviously is tailored to contain any person who might become influential in changing the social or political order of things. As such, it's a natural extension of that to want to collect the data as early on in the life of these people as possible. The goal isn't to use the data to catch criminals, to monitor all the actions of everyone, or other nonsense; the goal is obviously to identify those that would change the social or political order so that those people can be politically assassinated (have all of their political or social influence negated) _before_ they actually change things.

It's still big brother, no matter how you turn it. The fact that the scope of the act is limited to only a certain demographic is stigmatizing and insulting and opens up the path for abuse and mistakes, and makes it deviate even harder from traditional law-driven state adagios like: guilty until proven guilty. By what right can governments collect personal data on someone that MAY one day become a true criminal? What happened to the good old "benefit of the doubt"?

Typical inept UK government

[Kingston]

Just one more example, if we needed one as to how inept the UK government is at major IT projects. Yet again, when it comes to building anything on a grand scale we have to look to our cousins across the channel to get a clue. Our big brother database will be late, over budget and they will end up leaving their assassination list data in a toilet cubicle in Waterloo station.

Re:Why do the French Hate Freedom so Much?

[Anonymous Coward]

On the other hand, despite your excellent and informative points, it looks like you could use some balls yourself.

Yeah right, watch all of the activist mods bashing my post down. I don't need that karma hit. :)

Thanks for the interesting reply though, a little scary that his view is more prevalent than I had thought!

A book worth the reading !!!

[Anonymous Coward]

yes, it is a shame to see such database in mordern country. 1984 from Orwell is so in phase with what happened around the world: impossible to travel without fingerprint scanned in US, medical data monitored in smart card (Carte Vitale, France), and now this database.

you definitively have to read this book (sorry, just in french for now, but maybe there will be english translation):
Le Maitre des Noms (the master of the names) of Josef LADIK.
the name is a pseudo (as stated in the back of the book) and the writer is a prosecutor who definitively seems to know about what it talks! http://www.amazon.fr/ma%C3%AEtre-noms-Josef-Ladik/dp/2754006907/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1220614013&sr=8-1

have fun and keep flying under the radar :)

Re:Sorry...

[hey!]

Beats raising the remote from a seated position on the couch, I'd say.

Re:Sorry...

[frenchbedroom]

Yup, protesting is our national sport :)

Re:Why do the French Hate Freedom so Much?

[frenchbedroom]

[...] (I hate the constant cheese-eating-surrender-monkey jokes whenever the French are mentioned). [...]

Thank you for that. Those jokes are getting really old.

Do demonstrations actually work?

[BitterOldGUy]

I see all these demonstrations in the news and I always wonder if they're actually effective. When there's a group demonstrating about an issue that I have no interest in, or even have an interest in, or believe contrary to what the demonstrators believe, I ignore them and shake my head if there's violence. Does demonstrating have an effect in Western democracies? I think it does in fascist countries because then the dictator becomes afraid; such as Pakistan. Then there are other dictators who don't give a shit: Mugabe.

Then you have other activists who don't demonstrate. They write letters, lobby, legal action and do their best to educate the public. The Sierra Club is one of the most effective groups in existence. You'll never hear about them rioting or torching houses or SUV. You'll never hear about them ramming ships. As a result, people with actual power will meet with them on an equal basis and they accomplish their goals peacefully, with dignity, and with the respect of their adversaries. And because of their peaceful actions, the public may actually listen to them. That's not something I can say for the folks out in the street mixing it up with the cops.

Let me ask this: How many environmental protection laws do you think the Sierra Club got passed versus how many that ELF or Greenpeace have?

Re:Sorry...

[Anonymous Coward]

Not good enough, time to use the guillotines, again...

Re:Why do the French Hate Freedom so Much?

[Anonymous Coward]

>Napoleon wasn't French. He was Corsican.

And where is Corsica ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Corsica#Sale_and_annexation_to_France

>And the Norman conquest is about the only victory that the French can claim on their own, and that was almost 1000 years ago.

Quite hard to be a civilisation spanning millennia without any victory :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_France

Yeah, I have had similar thoughts

[Giant Electronic Bra]

The way I see it surveillance and universal identity databases etc are inevitable products of modern technology coupled with human nature. It isn't something we can just close the door on and expect the result to be that such things will simply go away.

It seems more like a choice between acknowledging that we WILL be surveilled, and that there WILL be such databases or sticking our heads in the sand and denying it. Thus two potential situations can arise. Either the surveillance and data acquisition are surreptitious, covert, and beyond the supervision of the body politic, or they are overt and can be subject to certain oversight and control.

I would also observe that there are undeniable practical benefits which could be realized by such technologies. Many of these benefits will not be fully realized if they exist in secret and can thus be put to only a limited set of uses. If they are acknowledged and in the open, subject to regulation and control, and available for certain legitimate uses then we may be able to reap great benefits while mitigating the most serious dangers.

The wise man understands that progress is made in the nature and structure of society, not that of the world. Therefore all progress depends on the wise ;)

Re:Yeah, I have had similar thoughts

[Anonymous Coward]

I would also observe that there are undeniable practical benefits which could be realized by such technologies. Many of these benefits will not be fully realized if they exist in secret and can thus be put to only a limited set of uses. If they are acknowledged and in the open, subject to regulation and control, and available for certain legitimate uses then we may be able to reap great benefits while mitigating the most serious dangers.

The most serious danger is that we find someone in the line of Stalin or Cheney or Joe McCarthy in a position of power at some future date. Then the old formula is put into place: Find a scary boogeyman (or invent one), claim a need for "temporary" emergency powers and a suspension of oversight in order to address the threat, then use the database to determine who your political opponents are and neutralize them. Say hello to the one party system.

The only way to prevent that is for these databases not to exist. And the only way to prevent that is for the entire government to be so transparent that there isn't anywhere to hide something like this.

Re:Yeah, I have had similar thoughts

[Shihar]

The problem with surveillance isn't the surveillance, especially if you toss it into a solid framework of checks and balances. The problem with surveillance is that we live in nations with uncountable laws, many of which are simply bad laws. The old cliche of "well if you have nothing to hide..." is actually true. The problem is that most people DO have something to hide.

Imagine for a moment what it would be like if you and the people you know were suddenly tossed in jail and fined for every single law you have broken. If every illegal thing you have ever done was tallied up and the proper punishments were dolled out, the vast majority of people would be looking at years of jail time and literally billions of dollars worth of fines.

The problem is democracy. In a system of majority rule, a large part of the minority is generally having laws passed against it. I wouldn't mind perfect surveillance in a state that just enforces a few "no shit" rules against violence and theft, but we don't live in such a world. For that reason, good surveillance scares the shit out of me. I don't want to live in a world where I spend my time being paranoid about what laws I could possibly be breaking every time I step out the door.

At first, I thought the subject was about the UK!

[Anonymous Coward]

We have something similar in the works, the Child Protection DB, which will gather names and bio data on every child in the UK, to "protect" them from the worst that society has to offer. Yeah, like the scumbag Nu-Labour nutters who are in charge and who seem intent on selling our very identities from birth, to the highest bidder!

One day I hope I will wake up and hear the immortal words...."Welcome to the real world."

Re:Am I going to jail?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not really. This Bel-air has been posted like 50 times.

Re:Sorry...

[Anonymous Coward]

Most french people are just as dumb as most of the other western people, they will buy that state_security/think_of_the_children shit and happily give up some of their liberties for that.

And btw, french people only get out of theirs chairs and protest in the streets when the govs try to hurt their social welfare, otherwise, they'll just stay at home watching "french idol".

Re:Why do the French Hate Freedom so Much?

[bigstrat2003]

The guy said, and I quote:

Disclaimer: yeah I know you're being sarcastic, but some people actually believe that bullshit.

I think you might've missed that important bit.

Re:Sorry...

[Ksempac]

Your nickname remembered me a much more interesting sport...

Obligatory...

[NinjaMcNugget]

Have fun storming the castle.

Re:Why do the French Hate Freedom so Much?

[Notquitecajun]

He can hardly be called "French" as Corsica was sold in 1764 and he was born in 1769. Get off it. He's not French. And he's about all the French can claim. The wikipedia article practically proves my point - there were no significant purely French victories throughout that period.

You mean like...

[Anonymous Coward]

...the Department of Homeland Security's Terrorist Watch List - which cannot even be accessed by public watchdog groups or many members of Congress?

Or the same Department's ability to tap phone and computer records without a subpoena?

Please excuse me while I take a moment to sweep up the remains of yet another exploded Irony Meter as the French, again, show that they are woefully behind the times and that Americans are still woefully complacent about our privacy and personal rights, especially in light of a speech by a candidate who claims he is for "change" but who has voted in lockstep (goosestep?) with the Bush administration 95% of the time!

How long until they become unusable?

[r_jensen11]

I'm not as naive as to think that only France has one of these- one only has to go to the Red Scare to know that the US also puts these together (See also: Do Not Fly lists, Guantanimo Bay, FBI & St. Paul Police raids this past Monday.) I do wonder, however, how long these databases can be compiled before they become unwieldy. Eventually, nearly every database becomes too much of a spider web and needs to be redone.

Re:Why do the French Hate Freedom so Much?

[TheRaven64]

Ever heard of the Battle of Hastings in 1066? Where those 'cheese-eating surrender monkeys' sucessfully invaded England

Technically, the invasion of Britain in 1066 was by Normans - Norse Men, who had previously invaded France. This presents some translation problems, since the French Normans are closer to the English Vikings. Asterix and the Normans is one example of this being incorrectly translated. The correct translation would be Asterix and the Vikings (this title was used in the film adaptation), since the term Normans in English is only used to refer to the Vikings who settled in Normandy, while in French it refers to both. The Vikings invaded both northern Gaul and Britain, and settled in both. Normandy was a separate country from the rest of France, and remained part of Britain after Hastings. We eventually lost it to the French largely as a result of a short run of incredibly incompetent monarchs bankrupting the country.

Re:Sorry...

[raddan]

Well I didn't expect a kind of French Inquisition.

Have your read the book 1984? This comes close!

[MrJerryNormandinSir]

Next thing you know France will enforce "Newspeak" to be the native language, and begin to attempt to reduce intellectual thought be dumbing down the "Newspeak" language year after year.

Re:Have your read the book 1984? This comes close!

[Bieeanda]

Actually, the Academy is too busy preventing linguistic drift to actually simplify the language.

So proud being french :-(

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course there are other "infamous" databases like this...
But this one is almost all-encompassing (question is : how the hell anyone coult manage NOT to be filed in this thing someday, for some dubious reason ???)
And worst thing is : it is supposed to be OFFICIAL and LEGAL !

Stupid people think "1984" was about a "communist" police state.
But "1984" was about ANY KIND of police state even supposedly "democratic" ones.

Actually, check their record!

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah yes, we can thank the Lib Dems because they have highlighted specific pieces of new legislation since 97 and clearly promised to repeal them completely and unambiguously? Oh wait, surprise, surprise, they haven't done that!

Re:Sorry...

[Kingrames]

s/glass/white flag

Re:Sorry...

[Uniquitous]

But I am le tired...

Re:Sorry...

[WillAdams]

The DNA storage aspect is kind of interesting --- consider a world in which everyone's DNA is catalogued --- now consider being a criminal in such a world --- one would have to take the same sort of precautions people once used against witchcraft (ensuring that one didn't allow anyone else access to hair, fingernails, blood &c.) --- or imagine being a revolutionary against a government w/ such information: ...In the course of a firefight, a revolutionary is wounded so badly that he bleeds through some garment specifically designed to soak up blood and prevent it from dropping anywhere...

``I've been blooded!''

``Sorry to hear that,'' his cell leader replies, ``you know the drill, you're rear guard and don't get on the transport --- try to take as many of them with you as you can. Got any grenades left?''

``No, I'm low on ammunition too.''

``Okay, everybody pass any clips you can spare to the blooded guy, here's my last grenade, you know what to do with it. Let's move out!''

At the pick up point the blooded guy finds a hiding place, digs a small hole, pulls the pin from a grenade, places it in the hole, then steps on it, holding the lever in place, locks and loads a fresh clip and waits for the government troops to arrive....

William

Re:Why do the French Hate Freedom so Much?

[Pig Hogger]

But didn't you think that perhaps the GP was doing a parody of knee-jerk American patriotism, and not serious?

If he was doing a joke/parody, he wouldn't have posted as A/C.

Re:Why do the French Hate Freedom so Much?

[Pig Hogger]

Leave it to the cheese-eating surrender monkeys to have a problem with a law that so obviously helps in the War on Turr (tm).

We don't hate freedom. We just don't trust people to be nice to others; this is why we have a big State that makes sure no one can take undue advantage of others.

We don't have freedom, we have liberty: by insuring that no one can crush someone else, we insure that they are free to do whatever they want without hurting anyone else. Like being able to speak against a big company without fear of being sued into oblivion. Being able to denounce working conditions without being fired. This is true liberty.

Liberty is not having the freedom to enslave or drive other people by the nose to kow-tow your line.

In the past, we have thoroughly been screwed by free entrepreneurs who had no problem using THEIR liberty to enslave others in company towns. So we gave ourselves strong governments that make sure that the free entrepreneurs will not crush their workers.

A true liberty is one that can be enjoyed by everyone, not just the rich, like in the USA.

Re:Why do the French Hate Freedom so Much?

[Pig Hogger]

By the way, I'm part cajun (see the name). We're the ones that had the good sense to leave both France AND Canada.

You did not leave France/Canada by your own volition, you were deported en masse by the britshit in 1755. Yes, the britshit conducted the first modern ethnic cleansing.

Re:Why do the French Hate Freedom so Much?

[Anonymous Coward]

Napoleon wasn't French. He was Corsican.

By this line of thought, there are no French.

keep his "successfully invading Moscow" in context. IT WAS WINTER. IN RUSSIA.

Further context: the Russians knew they were no match for Napoleon and his troups: they had no other choice but retreat. Then it became a strategy. IIRC, the Russian commander said "Napoleon won't have Russia before he reaches Vladivostok", read: we just can't fight him, so we'll keep retreating, it'll overstretch his lines and challenge his logistics. Let's hope that if we end up in Vladivostok it'll be a 10-1 battle."

And the Norman conquest is about the only victory that the French can claim on their own, and that was almost 1000 years ago.

Peculiar defintion of "on their own".

democratic nation

[wk633]

At first glance one might think the country in question is Russia or Zimbabwe but the truth is, it's a democratic nation

You do realize that Russia is a democracy, right?

Re:democratic nation

[Jaeph]

"You do realize that Russia is a democracy, right?"

Yes, and Putin is no longer in charge.

Now that we've got that out of the way, howsabout we discuss this bargain-priced bridge I'm selling? :-)

-Jeff

"Developers"?

[dkf]

Hey, timothy... Why is this on developers.slashdot.org? It doesn't belong here as it's not to do with software development; it belongs in YRO...

Bastille Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

So? Install Bastille Linux...

Re:Am I going to jail?

[Anonymous Coward]

Instead of throwing the car into neutral you should use the parking brake. Slows you down faster.

Re:Why do the French Hate Freedom so Much?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nicely said. There are far too many people here in the US who "are proud to be an America where at least they know they're free" or whatever that dribble is, who don't actually think about the meaning of the word.

There's a reason Bush likes France now

[pfbram]

Bush and "right-wing" radio did a 180 cartwheel when Sarkozy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Sarkozy) got into power there. Gone was all of the anti-French diatribe, those liberty fries (as opposed to French Fries), those scoundrels who wouldn't help us "liberate" Kuwait back to its rightful monarchical ruler, etc. Sarkozy gives me the willies. But I agree with other posters here, if there is any country whose people will cause a repeat of the late 18th century popular revolutions, government reforms, and restoration of civil liberties it will be the French.

This doesn't even sound as bad as the US TIA

[sdsucks]

Back before they dropped most of it.
- TIA

Multiple fronts are a strategic fact.

[gobbo]

Let me ask this: How many environmental protection laws do you think the Sierra Club got passed versus how many that ELF or Greenpeace have?

The largest mass-arrest in recent Canadian history, the Clayoquot Blockade, was pretty successful. Mind you, it was supported on multiple fronts: mail-outs, lobbying, faxing, press releases, multiple NGO's and coalition-building, etc.

The point is that the commercial logging interests allied with government were using multiple fronts (legal, political, media, police, thugs, covert harassment, vandalism). This is a typical situation where you have political dominance and 1) people are upset by some kind of abuse and 2) those in economic/political power stand to gain a lot... nasty tactics show up on both sides, though the monopoly on violence claimed by the government is usually more dangerous (these days things quickly escalate into the discourse of 'terrorism', even if it's just windows being smashed).

The fact that opponents of political power face thuggery and covert harassment, systemic discrimination, vilification in the media, etc. in addition to obvious crap like 'free speech zones' (hellooo Orwell!), means that anything less than a multiple-front response will be ineffective.

There's no question that without rag-tag protesters chaining themselves to trees and standing on sidewalks with signs, the Sierra Club wouldn't look so moderate or credible. Of course, the Sierra Clubs of the world can't affiliate themselves with the marginal groups, or directly acknowledge their contribution.

Political change is a kind of ecosystem. That's why it's so effective for the police to send in moles and saboteurs; they can mess up the edges of a strategy pretty easily, because protesters at the fringe are pretty unstable people often, so a few provocateurs can push things over the edge and shift the debate (cf. G8 Genoa, Quebec City 2007, etc.).

Complex political process, complex media dynamics = complex campaigns for change.

The Last Roundup

[Anonymous Coward]

I was just reading an article about a classified program that the US has been working on since the early 80's that currently uses a database that

"allegedly draws on four smaller databases that, in turn, cull from federal, state, and local "intelligence" reports; print and broadcast media; financial records; "commercial databases"; and unidentified "private sector entities." Additional information comes from a database known as the Terrorist Identities Datamart Environment, which generates watch lists from the Office of the Director of National Intelligence for use by airlines, law enforcement, and border posts."

I urge everyone to read this article (as most Slashdot users are probable in this DB!): http://www.radaronline.com/from-the-magazine/2008/05/government_surveillance_homeland_security_main_core_01-print.php

Re:Sorry...

[mikael]

That would be the Parisians. But the French fishermen would blockade the harbours, the French truckers would blockade the ferry ports and oil refineries, while the French farmers will blockade strategic locations such as the trains, the tunnels, and Disneyland.

You presuppose that representative government

[Giant Electronic Bra]

works in an environment where the vast majority of 'citizens' are willfully ignorant fools who can't get off their couches let alone carry out their duties as citizens. It cannot...

The fault, my dear Brutus, lies not in the stars, but in ourselves.

No matter how you construct it, a population of sheep are only fit to be sheared. If people will not be bothered to go to even the most minimal amount of effort to maintain themselves in a free state, then they will be slaves. And when they are unwilling to all stand up mutually for the rights of every one else's rights as well as their own, then the only inevitable result will be some form of tyranny because the collective authority of society will be exercised by someone, and if it is not everyone collectively then it will be the few, and they will quickly become the privileged.

Re:You presuppose that representative government

[Shihar]

No, I am afraid it goes even deeper than that. I wouldn't want surveillance even in a "perfect democracy". Majority rule and surveillance make bad bedfellows. There is nothing inherently "good" about majority rule, it just happens to be more just than the alternatives. In a majority rule state, you can still have 49% of the population enslaved by other 51%.

I specifically want a NON-Democratic government. I am not asking for a tyranny or a dictatorship or anything of that nature, but a government where the whim of the majority isn't law. The things I love best about the American government are its non-democratic parts. The Bill of Rights in particular is a document that sets out exactly what is beyond the realm of majority rule. It sets down rights that are (supposed) to be kept, majority be damned.

How do you set up a just liberal non-democratic government where surveillance doesn't send shivers down my spine? The hell if I know. I just know that surveillance and democracies do not go together. I would rather suffer higher crime rates than suffer a surveillance society in a society filled with literally countless laws.

Re:You presuppose that representative government

[Giant Electronic Bra]

No, I am afraid it goes even deeper than that. I wouldn't want surveillance even in a "perfect democracy". Majority rule and surveillance make bad bedfellows. There is nothing inherently "good" about majority rule, it just happens to be more just than the alternatives. In a majority rule state, you can still have 49% of the population enslaved by other 51%.

IMHO this is a misunderstanding of the dynamics involved in a representative system. 51% don't 'tyrannize' the other 49% (well, it can happen, but that isn't the primary problem). The real problem is that a small minority can simply play various segments of the people off against each other. If the people don't adhere to the principle that any violation of the rights of some must be considered a threat to the rights of the whole, then tyrants will inevitably undermine everyone's rights. They will simply appeal to a plurality of the public to subvert the rights of one small segment, and then turn around and do the same thing to another segment of the population until they have concentrated so much power in their own hands that nobody effectively has the exercise of any of their rights anymore. I know of no defense against this except that the vast majority of the people must steadfastly refuse the abridgment of the rights of each and every other citizen.

I specifically want a NON-Democratic government. I am not asking for a tyranny or a dictatorship or anything of that nature, but a government where the whim of the majority isn't law. The things I love best about the American government are its non-democratic parts. The Bill of Rights in particular is a document that sets out exactly what is beyond the realm of majority rule. It sets down rights that are (supposed) to be kept, majority be damned.

You refer to the Constitution, but that is only a piece of paper. It neither guarantees nor defends anything. In the long term the choice is only between a body politic which defends the rights of every individual against any other combination of individuals, or tyranny. What you want is to have all the benefits and none of the responsibilities of freedom. Sorry, not an option.

How do you set up a just liberal non-democratic government where surveillance doesn't send shivers down my spine? The hell if I know. I just know that surveillance and democracies do not go together. I would rather suffer higher crime rates than suffer a surveillance society in a society filled with literally countless laws.

The answer is your desire is simply an impossibility. You might as well be lamenting the fact that you cannot buy a perpetual motion machine. Either we all assert each other's rights against any abridgment, or eventually we will all be enslaved. United we stand, divided we fall. Few and far between are those who seem to truly understand what that means...

Re:Sorry...

[Kooty-Sentinel]

Have a nap..... zen FIRE ZE MISSELZ.

Re:Sorry...

[Captain Murdock]

Ok, have a nap... then fire ze missles!

We have one too...

[JRHelgeson]

This is just an observation, but Barack Obama has amassed an email list of young supporters, and these are precisely the demographics of the people who are talked about in this article.

Democracy != individual Rights

[redelm]

Why is anyone surprised? Especially that this happen in France? Individual rights (such as privacy, a defense against prejudice) are mostly unrelated to democracy (rule by the people).

The only indiv.right required for democracy to function is freedom of [political] speech. Otherwise, democracy can be frequently hostile to individual rights. In many places, freedom of religion is [would be] rendered moot if democracy (the will of the majority) could have its way unhampered by things like the US and other Constitutions.

In this case, it is a question of the rights of society to peace versus the rights of the individual to privacy. Social rights are highly weighted in France.

US Jokes About France (but seriously)

[no1home]

Here in the US, we joke rather constantly about France, despite our being friends and allies. Much of it has to do with surrendering during wars and battles (which is really only partially true and don't ever forget the very tough French Resistance) and the consistent electing of week governments. (Actually, the two are related: week governments surrender, but many of the French citizenry are tough, hence the tough Resistance.) I've frequently hypothesized that the French prefer to keep electing week governments to protect their freedoms without having to have yet another revolution. As our own government stomps all over our rights and freedoms here and I see the Brits losing theirs as well, I begin to wonder if the French have been right all along. Our government was built on the premise of a week federal system with strong states' rights and even stronger individual rights, but we keep electing strong (success/failure, peace/war, smart/stupid not related to this) governments and our rights have eroded. How little or how much have the rights of the French eroded? I honestly don't know and would like some input on this.

Re:Sorry...

[orielbean]

Cheers to that! *raises glass*

Efficient method to fill that database

[RCL]

French authorities are smart. In order to speed up creating the database, they put up an online petition against it, so people are giving their names themselves :)

"likely to breach public order"

[nurb432]

Im without words..

please !!!

[Anonymous Coward]

please stop calling these limited dictatorships democracies ..

in a real and true democracy there can be NO representation in lieu of the people .. for the true meaning of democracy is for the people to be in control of their own lives ..

since the day that corporations gained limited legal liability and the rights of persons .. this has been a private planet .. and the rule of law ceased to have any meaning .. but to enslave the people to the owners of the corporations ..

it is one of the favorite terms used by those in government positions these days .. "The Rule of Law" .. as if it was sacred and divinely inspired .. the only means of keeping the masses from running amok .. and the thing that makes us all equal .. when it is nothing but and abstract human creation .. devised to help enslave the masses .. lest they usurp those of privilege .. our planetary owners ..

and now with the aid of modern technologies .. they can make it so ..

and as far as majority rule goes ..anything less that a 67% majority for the implementation of a trial policy should be unacceptable .. and for a policy to be considered permanent an 85% majority should be required ..

50% + 1 is nothing but a state of conflict and or war .. and along with government mandated and controlled public education .. is the most effective method of enslaving the masses ever devised by the privileged few ..

welcome to the New World Order ..

Re:Why do the French Hate Freedom so Much?

[IorDMUX]

*ahem*

[taps desk]

The Battle of Hastings was *not* won by the French (Gauls). ... nor the English.

Rather, the Normans, who previously swept in and pwnd all of northern France, went on to do the same to England. The English and French languages/cultures experienced a mixing due to the cultural turbulence caused by these invasions, and Norman words and ways were dropped into both lands.

Oh yeah. And Napoleon? He's a Corsican.

Re:Sorry...

[m6ack]

Well, they wouldn't necessarily get out of their chairs in protest, but they might raise a glass from a seated position in a sidewalk cafe in protest.

Qu'ils mangent de la brioche.

Re:Why do the French Hate Freedom so Much?

[LionMage]

You know Napoleon wasn't actually French, right? His family was originally from Tuscany, and moved to Corsica. Corsica became a French territory just a year before he was born.

I'll Save 'em Some Trouble...

[flyneye]

I'll save 'em some trouble. I'll breach their public order.
          People of France! Your gov't. is made up of buttheads who obviously think you're their misfit stepchildren and will continue to to worsten this treatment as time goes by.Take matters into your own hands and change this. Viva la revolution!

You were screwed when...

[Anonymous Coward]

...you accepted to be tagged with a name, and unique ID numbers.

If you don't want to be in a database, then don't be a walking primary key.

No point in fighting databases. Just build your own.

Re:Sorry...

[kyliaar]

Organized public protest is actually illegal in France without a permit. You can be arrested for being in a group larger than three last I heard.

Re:Why do the French Hate Freedom so Much?

[NiteShaed]

Leave it to the cheese-eating surrender monkeys to have a problem with a law that so obviously helps in the War on Turr (tm).
Pass the Freedom Fries.

No, I'd say it's meant to be a joke (I don't think anyone would use the phrases I bolded, especially the spelling of 'terror'), but I liked the second AC's response anyway.....

Please add me to the database

[kenj0418]

My name is:
  Ken'); DROP TABLE PEOPLE; --

http://xkcd.com/327/

Re:Please add me to the database

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey! Little Kenny tables! How long has it been? Good to see you again!

Re:Sorry...

[HuguesT]

Where did you get your statistics ? The public sector employs a lot of people in France but not 50%. A comprehensive citizen watch organisation puts the figure at 26%, i.e. 7 million people. This includes ordinary civil servants working for one part or another of government, but also scientific researchers, teachers, and employees of public companies like Electricite de France, the Parisian Metro, and so on.

Democracy != Freedom

[skywire]

At first glance one might think the country in question is Russia or Zimbabwe but the truth is, it's a democratic nation which is implementing this database.

Michel Pezet ... had this to say ... : 'The Edvige database has no place in a democracy.'

The last time I checked, both Russia and Zimbabwe were democracies. Unreservedly, unarguably democracies (though we might quibble over Zimbabwe after the latest election). Though some of us may disapprove of some of the policies enacted by their popularly elected governments, that is irrelevant. The quotations in the story demonstrate that the propaganda effort to confuse the concepts of democracy and freedom has been wildly successful (see 1984). One might have expected that when democracies violated the rights of their subjects, that would spark people to wake up and see the difference. But no, the false notion of "democracy == freedom" has been so deeply implanted as to become axiomatic, a religious article of faith that cannot be swayed by any evidence. Rather than opening peoples' eyes, the routine, expected behaviour of states that happen to use democracy to legitimize themselves only causes people to whine in disbelief.

Re:Why do the French Hate Freedom so Much?

[HuguesT]

For the english language it's way more than 1600 words. The very same page that you link to estimates 30% of all english words are of french origin.

Re:Why do the French Hate Freedom so Much?

[HuguesT]

There is no such thing as ethnic French anyway. Napoleon was in the French revolutionary army, lived and spoke french, he was French enough alright. That's too bad for the French BTW because Napoleon was a lunatic and there is zero reason to be proud of this leader.

I'd like to know what a "pure French" victory or defeat at any rate. The French army employs legionnaires who are often foreigners.

Re:Sorry...

[gal1264]

Yeah. They protest over everything there. It's not gonna last.

Re:Sorry...

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you're forgetting the French Parisian students, unless you're saying they don't exist anymore.