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Why Kindle 2's Screen Took 12 Years and $150 Million

waderoush writes "Critics are eating up everything about Amazon's Kindle 2 e-book reader except its $359 price tag. But if you think that's expensive, take a look behind the Kindle at E Ink, the Cambridge, MA, company that has spent $150 million since 1997 developing the electronic paper display that is the Kindle's coolest feature. In the company's first interview since the Kindle 2 came out, E Ink CEO Russ Wilcox says it took far longer than expected to make the microcapsule-based e-paper film not only legible, but durable and manufacturable. Now that the Kindle 2 is finally getting readers to take e-books seriously, however, Wilcox says he sees a profitable future in which many book, magazine, and newspaper publishers will turn to e-paper, if only to save money on printing and delivery. (Silicon Alley Insider recently calculated that the New York Times could save more than $300 million a year by shutting down its presses and buying every subscriber a Kindle). 'What we've got here is a technology that could be saving the world $80 billion a year,' Wilcox says."

524 comments

  1. purell by bugs2squash · · Score: 4, Funny

    should make the case, so you can read them in the john and not spread germs

    --
    Nullius in verba
    1. Re:purell by sgt+scrub · · Score: 5, Informative

      'What we've got here is a technology that could be saving the world $80 billion a year,' Wilcox says."

      Anyone able to translate that into number of trees saved? Not only does it save trees but the chemistry involved in making paper is horrible. Even with new process'. http://portal.acs.org/portal/acs/corg/content?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=PP_ARTICLEMAIN&node_id=1188&content_id=CTP_003400&use_sec=true&sec_url_var=region1&__uuid=b6dfb0f1-988d-4fd1-96e3-8856d0b81993

      --
      Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
    2. Re:purell by fataugie · · Score: 5, Funny

      That assumes that some of us won't cut down trees just for the fun of it.

      You're speaking with someone who lit a tire on Earth Day just because it pissed off the hippies in the neighborhood.

      --

      WTF? Over?

    3. Re:purell by macxcool · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Anyone able to translate that into number of trees saved?

      Once again, these trees are not from clear-cut tropical forests made into farmland for subsistence farming. These trees are most likely in areas managed by forestry companies who plant at least as many trees as they cut.

      There are regulations in western countries and the forestry companies would be putting themselves out of business if they cut down all the trees.

    4. Re:purell by Yvan256 · · Score: 4, Funny

      I also tried to do the same thing last year. Except that I'm Canadian.

      The police didn't find it funny that I tried to burn a Canadian Tire on Earth Day just to piss off the hippies in the neighborhood.

    5. Re:purell by fataugie · · Score: 5, Funny

      You guys scare me....Canadians I mean.
      90% of you live within 10 miles of our border.

      Are you guys getting ready to invade?

      --

      WTF? Over?

    6. Re:purell by SupplyMission · · Score: 5, Informative

      Har har har... burning a Canadian Tire...

      For people not from Canada: http://www.canadiantire.ca/

    7. Re:purell by DrinkDr.Pepper · · Score: 2, Informative
      I can just imagine:

      Purell this week announces that it is suing Amazon and E-Ink for disrupting their hand sanitizer <del>racket</del>business.

      --
      0xfeedface
    8. Re:purell by eleuthero · · Score: 2, Funny

      though the others have noted they will cut down trees for fun... I am thinking more importantly that paper mills get their trees typically from tree farms... which have a record for 1) using eucalyptus trees which damage soil but 2) treating damaged soil to reuse the land... We aren't saving any trees by stopping the production of paper... unless you are one of those concerned about dryads being killed and then, well, I for one am not that concerned about you anymore.

    9. Re:purell by jcr · · Score: 5, Funny

      You're speaking with someone who lit a tire on Earth Day just because it pissed off the hippies in the neighborhood.

      What do you use to get the tire started? I tried ethanol, but it burned out without lighting the tire. I eventually had to build a fire out of copies of Silent Spring, the IPCC report, and Earth in the Balance to get it hot enough.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    10. Re:purell by BunnyClaws · · Score: 1

      No, its just wrong to use anything electronic while taking a dump.

      --
      "Anything tastes good if you deep fry it."
    11. Re:purell by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      So let me get this right: because there's currently a plan associated with gathering a resource, it is wrong to economize the use of that resource? And that companies deserve protection from becoming obsolete?

      I think you have a new calling as lobbyist for buggy-whip makers and whale-bone skirts.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    12. Re:purell by fataugie · · Score: 1

      Used motor oil

      --

      WTF? Over?

    13. Re:purell by Applekid · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So let me get this right: because there's currently a plan associated with gathering a resource, it is wrong to economize the use of that resource? And that companies deserve protection from becoming obsolete?

      No, he's saying that because there's currently a plan associated with gathering a resource that's directly proportional to it's replacement that economizing use will not "save trees". If demand goes down fewer trees will be cut and hence fewer will be planted. The trees saved are those that would never have been planted. Trust me that those that find vast percentages of their land not profitable due to increased supply will still chop down the trees and perhaps do something more economically viable with the land.

      Buggy-whips and Whale-bone are simply not in demand. Leather for the whips diverted to other things and whale bones are as well.

      --
      More Twoson than Cupertino
    14. Re:purell by Lumpy · · Score: 2, Informative

      Why? trees saved means nothing. Most paper come from managed forests that are replanted after harvest.

      Most of the destructive tree cutting comes from land clearing for useless things like Golf courses, Subdivisions, Farms, and industry.

      The logging industry is the most "GREEN" industry you can get, they understand conservation.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    15. Re:purell by Duradin · · Score: 4, Funny

      Wait, you're making it sound like trees are a renewable resource that can be managed to provide a sustainable harvest! That can't be right! Once a tree is cut another one can never be regrown in the same spot! That's why we have to save trees... right?

    16. Re:purell by Endlisnis · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You ignore the environmental cost of manufacturing the Kindle. I suspect that building 1 million of them (one for each NYT reader), would cause more environmental problems than printing all 365 million papers combined.

    17. Re:purell by godrik · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not only does it save trees but the chemistry involved in making paper is horrible.

      I thought that producing electronic device were very costly and relatively dangerous: capacitor, batteries. To be fair, we will need an estimation on the cost of producing those device and their expected life time.

      Can someone provide an estimation ? (I have no ideas of the real cost).

    18. Re:purell by mweather · · Score: 5, Funny

      If you listen closely at the border, you can hear them sharpening their ice skates, biding their time.

    19. Re:purell by mweather · · Score: 1

      Planting new trees you're going to cut down in a few decades to replace old growth forests is a retarded management strategy.

    20. Re:purell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes. The other 10% are on your side of the border already.

    21. Re:purell by CannonballHead · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but 90% is what, 23 people? Not counting women and children. counting women and children ... 27?

    22. Re:purell by nsayer · · Score: 1

      Leather for the whips diverted to other things and whale bones are as well.

      Not so much the whale bones. Whale bones were never the primary reason for hunting whales. It just happened that they could be economically used for some purposes because they were plentiful as a side effect of the hunting. With the rise of more economical replacement products for most of the other products of whaling, combined with the increased costs of whaling leading to the eventual (nearly) worldwide ban, there hasn't been any repurposing of whale bones beyond as a source material for scrimshaw.

    23. Re:purell by fataugie · · Score: 5, Funny

      The last time I tried to get into Canada, I was turned back at the border, so I have no idea how many are up there.
      Next time, I'll try growing a mullet to bypass the checks at the border

      (Mullet == Canadian Passport).

      --

      WTF? Over?

    24. Re:purell by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I forgot to make it a link...

      Mod parent informative.

    25. Re:purell by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      Nope. It's just gravity at work!

    26. Re:purell by mapsjanhere · · Score: 1

      and you ignore the environmental cost of shipping the 365 million papers across the country. My (based on zero actual info) guess would be that the fuel consumed for making one kindle doesn't deliver a year's supply of the NYT to a subscriber outside NYC.

      --
      I'm aging rapidly, I bought a new game and had no idea if my machine was good for it.
    27. Re:purell by FishWithAHammer · · Score: 2, Informative

      Old growth forests have maximized the amount of carbon they will ever sequester and don't even really provide a lot of oxygen to the environment (compared to other sources). Cutting them down is not inherently bad, as long as you aren't freeing up that carbon--if you're making paper or wooden products out of the trees (two-by-fours, chairs, whatever), it's fine.

      At any rate, American logging companies at least plant more trees than they ever plan to harvest.

      --
      "You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
    28. Re:purell by Locklin · · Score: 1

      And if you have ever hiked in one of these "recovered" forests, you can marvel at the sterile, rows upon rows of mono-culture.

      Tree farming is a horrible waste of land and anything that cuts down on the need for it is a plus.

      --
      "Knowledge is the only instrument of production that is not subject to diminishing returns" -Journal of Political Econom
    29. Re:purell by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      I guess we're talking two different kinds of save. One is save as in "save the children!" and the other is save as in "save money". I don't see any reason why reducing the amount a resource is used in one area is a bad thing.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    30. Re:purell by hclewk · · Score: 1

      That assumes that each subscriber will need a new Kindle every year and that the only thing the Kindles will be used for is reading the NYT.

    31. Re:purell by needs2bfree · · Score: 1

      Anyone able to translate that into number of trees saved?

      And how many Libraries of Congress is that?

    32. Re:purell by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Once a tree is cut another one can never be regrown in the same spot! That's why we have to save trees... right?

      Trees can be replaced easily. Forest ecosystems can't. If we use fewer trees, we can let some tree farms begin the slow, slow process of returning to being actual forests.

      A tree farm is NOT a forest.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    33. Re:purell by pacinpm · · Score: 1

      'What we've got here is a technology that could be saving the world $80 billion a year,' Wilcox says."

      It sounds like a good thing. Saving money during economic crysis. But if you think about it for a while it's $80 billion less for someone to earn. It will make jobless a lot of people and whole industries could suffer. I am not sure we are ready for this during a crysis.

    34. Re:purell by Accursed · · Score: 1

      You guys scare me....Canadians I mean. 90% of you live within 10 miles of our border.

      Are you guys getting ready to invade?

      Actually it's within 100 miles.

    35. Re:purell by SnarfQuest · · Score: 4, Funny

      Are we about to be invaded by people wearing hockey masks? Chain saws optional?

      --
      Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
    36. Re:purell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Used motor oil

      Another way to recycle used motor oil. How ecologically considerate of you.

    37. Re:purell by Endlisnis · · Score: 1

      You're right, but what I really *meant* to say was that I suspect that manufacturing of a single kindle requires more resources than printing every book/paper you could reasonably read on it before it breaks/has it's DRM discontinued.

    38. Re:purell by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1

      Bathrooms are not particularly germy places, actually. Doctors advise people to wash their hands in the bathroom because washing frequently is good for health, and that's when you are near a sink. Bathrooms are actually cleaned more frequently than door handles you touch all the time.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    39. Re:purell by fataugie · · Score: 1

      What's a factor of 10 among friends?

      --

      WTF? Over?

    40. Re:purell by mccrew · · Score: 1

      Newspapers are too heavy, low value, and time sensitive to be shipped across the country. Most national papers are actually printed and distributed in each locality. Most national papers don't own a printing press.

      --
      Hey, Windows users, there is no such thing as "forward" slash, there is only slash and backslash.
    41. Re:purell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Id much rather pollute with lead, mercury and non-degradable ABS than soyink and recycled paper.

    42. Re:purell by fugue · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Good point about sequestration, at least if the trees are not burned. Of course, there are other reasons to save them. On the practical side, it's very difficult to cut them down without causing erosion, topsoil loss, destruction of complex and far-reaching ecosystems associated with habitat loss, etc... But perhaps more importantly, there are also interesting quality-of-life issues involved with destroying things of great beauty. At what point is it just not worth cramming a few billion more people onto an ugly planet?

      --
      "The biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place."
    43. Re:purell by DM9290 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Old growth forests have maximized the amount of carbon they will ever sequester and don't even really provide a lot of oxygen to the environment (compared to other sources). Cutting them down is not inherently bad, as long as you aren't freeing up that carbon--if you're making paper or wooden products out of the trees (two-by-fours, chairs, whatever), it's fine.

      killing endangered animals is not inherently bad either. As long as all the elephants and tigers have their carbon properly sequestered into house hold products or jewelry it's fine.

      --
      No one has a right to their *own* opinion. They have a right to the TRUTH.
    44. Re:purell by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 1

      Most paper come from managed forests that are replanted after harvest.

      There is no such thing as a "managed forest". A tree farm ain't a forest, no way, no how.

      The logging industry is the most "GREEN" industry you can get, they understand conservation.

      Logging destroys forests and replaces them with tree farms.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    45. Re:purell by NevarMore · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Not only does it save trees but the chemistry involved in making paper is horrible. Even with new process'

      The process for making plastic, circuit boards, and e-paper in the kindle is cleaner how?

    46. Re:purell by ckaminski · · Score: 1

      Okay, basic math here. Assuming that at every stage of production, each part is made such that each producer makes a profit, and you sell your product AT a profit, and say each kindle is $200. Then the cost of producing 1 million kindles is $200.

      Pretty simple how that works, isn't it? People's salaries even get accounted for in that manner. :-)

      The cost to make ONE modern semiconductor is HUGE! But you can by 1gz 32bit ARM CPUS for $20 in bulk. So arguably, I could make one newspaper for $1000, and 1 Kindle from scratch for maybe $100,000. But I can make 1 million kindles for the same cost as 365 million newspapers, which is just arguing TFA's point. :-) HAND.

    47. Re:purell by Fozzyuw · · Score: 1

      I'm stocking up on my bennigan's coupons just in case.

      --
      "The past was erased, the erasure was forgotten, the lie became truth." ~1984 George Orwell
    48. Re:purell by Saerko · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Here's the thing: you're assuming all trees cut down and processed into paper are grown on land owned by paper manufacturers and mills. You're also assuming that replanting always occurs.

      What actually happens is a little different. Let's say I'm a company, and I happen to--for some reason--own a forest. Perhaps I use it for experiments, perhaps for milling. I replant because I have an incentive to keep processing wood or using the forest.

      I go bankrupt or get bought.

      Now these "friendly" fellows called Asset Strippers come in. They do just as their name implies...and strip my assets. This means removing every conceivable resource from the land, and then selling it for as much money as possible.

      The truth is that there hasn't been any money in cutting down forests as a sustainable business for about 10-15 years. So a lot of forestry these days is a consequence of asset stripping, rather than any normal business practice. If the bottom dropped out on timber for paper use, you'd probably see clearcutting from asset strippers cease because the cost of the logging would be greater than the profit to be reaped.

      Boom! Problem solved and explained.

    49. Re:purell by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 1

      So long as we can keep this greenhouse thing going, we're fine. But if it ever cools off and the ice spreads south....

    50. Re:purell by CannonballHead · · Score: 2, Informative

      Congratulations, that was "Informative." =P :)

    51. Re:purell by Tibor+the+Hun · · Score: 1

      Don't bother calling me until they start girding their loins. ...
      On second thought, don't even call me then.

      --
      If you don't know what AltaVista is (was), get off my lawn.
    52. Re:purell by ArhcAngel · · Score: 1

      I'm stocking up on my bennigan's coupons just in case.

      There are still Bennigan's open?

      --
      "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
    53. Re:purell by godrik · · Score: 1

      well, I was unclear. I was talking about the ecological cost of producing that much kindle. Since there is going to be some heavy metals, conductors...
      If it was not for the e-ink, it should not be that different from producing laptop or mobile phone.

      What about this e-ink paper. Does producing it use some 'dangerous' chemical product. Are they well recycled ?

    54. Re:purell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From my experience the invaders will most likely be wearing toques and muttering about the exchange rate.

    55. Re:purell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Next time, make it a Tim Horton's.

    56. Re:purell by Carnildo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Trees can be replaced easily. Forest ecosystems can't. If we use fewer trees, we can let some tree farms begin the slow, slow process of returning to being actual forests.

      I drive past a tree farm on a regular basis. If it were shut down, it wouldn't return to forest. It would return to semi-desert scrubland. The only reason there's a tree farm there is because it's just up the hill from the fourth-largest river in the United States. Most places where trees are farmed for paper are like this: take a chunk of cheap land with good irrigation, plant a bunch of fast-growing trees, and harvest them every 15 years or so.

      Trees farmed for lumber are different: since they grow slowly and need to be larger to produce worthwhile products, they're usually grown in places where trees would naturally grow.

      --
      "They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
    57. Re:purell by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      Well, aren't there a bunch of hippies who whine about foresting in certain habitats of animals? If less foresting gets done, then those could be the first places that stop.

      But, I'm sure that they'll find some other reason to whine about the Kindle. You can never win with hippies.

    58. Re:purell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    59. Re:purell by Duradin · · Score: 1

      Libraries of Congress are made of trees you insensitive clod!

      That should cover my meme usage for awhile.

    60. Re:purell by mtrachtenberg · · Score: 1

      Once a tree is cut another one can never be regrown in the same spot! That's why we have to save trees... right?

      Every time you take a "crop" of trees, what you are doing is mining the topsoil. This idea that trees are renewable is at best a half-truth. Yes, given centuries to recover between takings, forests would be renewable. Anybody expect the forest product companies to let "their" forests take a few centuries to recover? The joke's on you.

    61. Re:purell by shokk · · Score: 1

      Coins are individual, too. Save the monies!!!

      --
      "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
    62. Re:purell by dougisfunny · · Score: 1

      Broken window fallacy?

      Also, crisis doesn't have a y in it unless you are referring to a video game.

      --
      This is not the funny you're looking for.
    63. Re:purell by Duradin · · Score: 1

      And lo, fertilizer was discovered, and the tree farmers did rejoice, for it was good.

      Then mulch and compost descended from the heavens, and tree farmers burned incense and made sacrifices of environmentalists to give thanks.

      A great prophet arose from the tree farmer people, and he spoke the word of Agriculture! The prophet of Agriculture foretold of things to come, crop rotation, companion planting and green manure, and the people did tremble!

    64. Re:purell by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Are we about to be invaded by people wearing hockey masks? Chain saws optional?

      They are, but you do not want to know what they can do with a simple hockey stick!

    65. Re:purell by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      If you listen closely at the border, you can hear them sharpening their ice skates, biding their time.

      "Imagine, if you will, a steel blade mounted, not on a short, skinny, arm, but on the end of a long, muscular leg, increasing the effective range and power." -paraphrased (couldn't find the exact quote)

    66. Re:purell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My family actually raises a tree farm, and besides the initial fertilization of the saplings, they are self sustaining. Pine needles, river runoff, animals, and the stumps left in the ground after harvest provide all the nutrients needed for the tree farms.

      Granted the previous crops grown there were peanuts 30 years ago, but there've been several generations of pines there since.

    67. Re:purell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What a waste! How many trees we could have cut down with $150 million in 12 years?

    68. Re:purell by shokk · · Score: 1

      You act as if you forgot that we're all humans reading this forum. We'll FIND a reason to destroy something. In the future it could be a hip little wooden box, or a nostalgia for 18th century items gone awry. Those trees are doomed one way or another.

      --
      "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
    69. Re:purell by Eil · · Score: 1

      Hi, next time, please reply to the article instead of the first post if you don't want to be modded off-topic. Thanks.

    70. Re:purell by GMFTatsujin · · Score: 1

      Spending any amount of money on a wasteful process that could be replaced with something more efficient and useful != good economic sense. Jobs or no jobs. That $80 billion is already missing from the economy. It's just that nobody's felt the pinch of it yet. That pinch will come. Better it come in a controllable way.

    71. Re:purell by QuantumRiff · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually, forest ecosystems rely on destruction every few years to clear out the ground clutter and dead trees. This used to be accomplished by fire, but then we started putting these fires out. Then, we logged them, so everything was in a balance.. but in the mid 90's or so, we stopped logging because of environmental reasons in the west, and over the last few years, we have had HUGE fires on the west coast. Logging or fire was the only way to kill the western pine beetle. With no logging, and putting out the fires combined, HUGE sections of the forest are dying. Near where I used to live in Oregon, there was a stand of dead trees that was measured in hundreds of square miles from the beetle. within the next few years, its going to be an insane forest fire.

      --

      What are we going to do tonight Brain?
    72. Re:purell by QuantumRiff · · Score: 1

      The thing that scares me on that drive is the large pile of Chemical weapons just past tree farm.. ;) I just drive by in Silence...

      --

      What are we going to do tonight Brain?
    73. Re:purell by macmurph · · Score: 2, Informative

      In the case of Indonesia, the rainforest is being cut illegally to supply China with wood and paper (and hence US bound products). You can't just "replant" an ecosystem like a rainforest because it has a lot of fragile symbiotic relationships. Once its gone, it becomes cattle grazing land (see australia or southern mexico for examples).

      This is why Forest Stewardship Council lumber and paper products should be promoted. http://www.fsc.org/

    74. Re:purell by amRadioHed · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You're speaking with someone who lit a tire on Earth Day just because it pissed off the hippies in the neighborhood.

      What an iconoclast you are. Do you also piss in people's beer at the pub just because they don't like it?

      Your parents must be so proud of their contribution to the gene pool.

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    75. Re:purell by Nalarik · · Score: 1

      Just line the border with goalie nets.

    76. Re:purell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While it's true that saving trees won't affect the number of trees too much, it will allow the average age (and size, and ecosystem health) to increase.

    77. Re:purell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, you're country is a shit hole. We don't want it.

    78. Re:purell by jon3k · · Score: 2, Funny

      nice, you even pissed off this hippy just by talking about burning a tire to piss off some other hippys. that's two hippies with a single stone!

    79. Re:purell by Big_Monkey_Bird · · Score: 1

      We're coming to steal your cheese. But you can keep your crap beer.

    80. Re:purell by jon3k · · Score: 1

      You're right you know what, let's just take everyone's money and put in in a pile and split it, how's that? You can't create an entire sector of industry that exists solely to serve itself, it's not sustainable. You just have to transition from it slowly and as painlessly as possible. Hopefully by finding a way to repurpose thos workers, maybe by manufacturing, shipping or supporting those new devices.

    81. Re:purell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One cannot simply walk into Canada...

    82. Re:purell by Seraphim1982 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why wouldn't a drop in the paper market cause more wood suppliers to go backrupt, and have their forests stripped?

    83. Re:purell by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      Yes, but let's assume there are 100,000 people involved in the paper industry that would be out of work. If those 100,000 people were moved to an island somewhere, Antartica or a really deep coal mine we would then save that load on the environment.

      We need to be thinking in more self-sustaining terms. Making do with less, starting with less people.

    84. Re:purell by pilgrim23 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Speaking as a collector of antiquarian books; made of linen paper and just as fine today as they were 300-400 years ago when they were made, I find this curious. I also wonder in 300-400 years how well the kindle interface will work compared to a standard bound book.

      --
      - Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum.
    85. Re:purell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [grammar nazi]processes[/grammar nazi]
      the form you used is for nouns ending in s, implying ownership. kudos for even knowing about it (most people seem to have no idea and will write lucas's) but it's not for pluralising stuff. I'm not really all that great at grammar but my name ends in an s so I know this one.

    86. Re:purell by SEE · · Score: 1

      Certainly, tree farms are rows of monoculture. But basically all farms are rows of monoculture. Reducing tree farms will not result in the addition of very much forest; it will mostly result in a farm that raises a different crop.

    87. Re:purell by SBrach · · Score: 1

      Did you know: Used motor oil can fertilize your lawn!

    88. Re:purell by FishWithAHammer · · Score: 1, Troll

      We're animals. We are at the top of the food chain. If other species cannot adapt to survive, they won't.

      I'm interested in how to protect us, not endangered animal species.

      --
      "You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
    89. Re:purell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What do you use to get the tire started?

      Ask Winnie Mandela.

    90. Re:purell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also we can almost effordlessly create round about 100 million more unemployeds. Some of which of course will starve to death being 3rd world wage slaves.
      So we have nice electric bookies, solve overpopulation, hunger (once dead no food needed) and probably contribute to CO2 reduction.
      What a wonderfull idea. Let's abolish paper.
      Let's drill holes in our knees while we are at it.
      Away with high resolution color pictures on paper. Now we have cheesy low res monochrome small format e-paper that costs a fortune.

    91. Re:purell by amRadioHed · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm not pissed off, but I am shocked that someone would brag about such idiocy. What what could be more pathetic than engaging in destructive behavior just because other people don't like it?

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    92. Re:purell by geekoid · · Score: 1

      I ahve no problem with you burning a tire...as long as none of the waster ever leaves your property.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    93. Re:purell by maxume · · Score: 1

      The comment that you first replied to was a response to a comment that was talking about the "save the children!" type of save, so the comment was probably mostly in response to that. I would guess that they are relatively neutral about the other savings (and thus it doesn't make any sense to try to hold them to a point on it).

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    94. Re:purell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One must skate

    95. Re:purell by ucblockhead · · Score: 1

      Most of the huge fires on the West Coast are in Southern California, where there are no few trees.

      --
      The cake is a pie
    96. Re:purell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      as long as none of the waster ever leaves your property.

      Would you mind translating that into something that we English speaking people can understand, please? Thanks!

    97. Re:purell by maxume · · Score: 2, Informative

      Much of the logging that is done leads to tree farms, but not all of it (for instance, the majority of North America has been logged at least once). This is somewhat related to it being rather difficult to farm hardwoods (they die a lot, and grow funny, mitigating the benefits of nice neat rows).

      Even if logging ceased, there are all sorts of more subtle things to worry about, like worms:

      http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=invasive-earthworms-denude-forests

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    98. Re:purell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      there was a stand of dead trees that was measured in hundreds of square miles from the beetle

      I'm mildly curious: What kind of beetle was it? Why did they pick that particular beetle? And how did they stop it from moving about (otherwise the measurement would change as it roamed around)?

      Seems to me that they'd want to use something not quite so mobile for such measurements.

      within the next few years, its going to be an insane forest fire.

      They should've chosen a beetle that didn't smoke.

    99. Re:purell by DMUTPeregrine · · Score: 1

      Because the forest would cease to be as valuable as the fuel used to cut it down.

      --
      Not a sentence!
    100. Re:purell by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2, Funny

      that's two hippies with a single stone!

      No, that's two hippies with a single tire!

    101. Re:purell by stmfreak · · Score: 1

      To burn a tire, you just need to stuff it with some paper and soak with diesel. Light with match and get back.

      --
      These opinions guaranteed or your money back.
    102. Re:purell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no

      also, fuck you!

    103. Re:purell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess you don't have an iPhone?

    104. Re:purell by forceman130 · · Score: 1

      Once again, these trees are not from clear-cut tropical forests made into farmland for subsistence farming. These trees are most likely in areas managed by forestry companies who plant at least as many trees as they cut. There are regulations in western countries and the forestry companies would be putting themselves out of business if they cut down all the trees.

      Wow, way to kill a joke, Poindexter.

      --
      Wow, a 7 digit ID - let that be a lesson in the perils of procrastination.
    105. Re:purell by JackCroww · · Score: 2, Informative

      I live adjacent to 250 acres of tree farm. It *is* a forest. No doubt about that. Around 1900, it was a sheep farm completely devoid of trees. Now only clear-cutting would keep it from becoming more of a forest.

      And the dead trees from it keep my house warm in winter via my two woodstoves. I use less than 200 gallons of heating oil per year to keep my house warm.

      --
      "Ayn Rand is a bloody socialist compared to me." - Robert A. Heinlein
    106. Re:purell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A webpage asking you to input a Canadian postal code before giving any information is useless to someone who isn't from Canada.

      (Or who lacks the motivation to Google a valid Canadian Postal Code)

    107. Re:purell by Destoo · · Score: 4, Funny

      But be careful. If you die in Canada, you die in real life too.

      --
      Nouvelles de jeux et technologies en français. TC
    108. Re:purell by MadUndergrad · · Score: 1

      I can just imagine an idiot living in a dome lighting a tire, quickly becoming obscured by the smoke as they collapse. Sounds good to me!

    109. Re:purell by apostrophesemicolon · · Score: 1

      not to mention that they're getting help and intelligence from their les comrades here.
      They've been planning it all this time with their cheap drugs!!

    110. Re:purell by Alpha830RulZ · · Score: 1

      No, those just get the headlines because there are houses involved. We have had fires in Washington, Oregon, Idaho, and Montana over the last several years that are much larger in size, but you don't hear about them, because people's houses don't burn down.

      --
      I was taught to respect my elders. The trouble is, it's getting harder and harder to find some.
    111. Re:purell by andy_t_roo · · Score: 2, Funny

      actually if you click the "Looking for company info? Click here" button you get company info where you can find nuggets of wisdom such as
      "Canadian Tire has a long-standing tradition of operating with integrity and we aspire to be Canadaâ(TM)s most trusted company. We expect each of our team members to perform in a manner that maintains the trust and confidence of our shareholders"

    112. Re:purell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thats pretty stilly. Firstly all newspaper are a percent recycled and the rest comes from pine that is specifically grown for paper, infact we plant more trees than we chop down. Paper/tress is no in short in the world (despite what greenies will tell you).

      Secondly its far more likly a kindle would do way way more damage to the enviroement than thousands of news papers. This is like the cermagic mug analogy. You have to use a ceramic mug 5,000 times before it is better for the enviroment than using 5,000 plastic cups. Plasitc cups use almost no water or oil, ceramics requires a tremedous amount of power and carbon polution. ALmost everything in the making of paper is cycled, including the water and chemicals. A single microcontroller like in a kindle can use 10,000+L and half its cost is in electricity (ie. carbon pollution).

    113. Re:purell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some tree will NOT grow in a forest. They only will grow in a clear cut area. According to my brother who has a PHd in forestry.

    114. Re:purell by HisOmniscience · · Score: 1

      What what could be more pathetic than engaging in destructive behavior just because other people don't like it?

      Whining about people engaging in destructive behavior just because other people don't like it?

    115. Re:purell by Killjoy_NL · · Score: 1

      I'm thinking he made it up for comedic effect :)

      --
      This is the sig that says NI (again)
    116. Re:purell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The answer is, it doesn't matter. The information is no longer bound in the device - hopefully it's been stored in hundreds or millions of other devices around the planet.

      If the Kindle interface becomes obsolete, port the information onto another medium and recycle the device.

    117. Re:purell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe you could provide a source, of the proportion of forests that are cut down and replanted vs the amount that is cut down and not replanted?

      My perception of land use is typically heavily regulated, and when you assert that the vast majority of wood comes from vast tracts of land that are clear-shaven by bankruptcy administrators, it naturally seems quite surprising.

      I would therefore be interested to know whether reality truly is as you describe it.

    118. Re:purell by kentrel · · Score: 1

      Somehow Canadians have managed to make this thread about them. Crafty bastards.

    119. Re:purell by billstclair · · Score: 1

      Another way to save trees would be to make paper out of hemp. But darn, it's illegal to grow hemp, even the non-psychoactive industrial variety, in the US. Bunch of neanderthals.

    120. Re:purell by tecmec · · Score: 0

      Not true, we have health care! :D

    121. Re:purell by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The problem with your analysis is that much of the country was heavily wooded before we started wandering around through it. Maybe that doesn't apply to your particular location but many if not most tree farms are where they are because there were trees there to begin with. Consequently there are logging roads. You know all that country (and it covers much of the US) that has old logging roads (now they often just call them a "fire road" to hide their shame - some fire roads are of course just fire roads) but no trees to speak of? Here in Lake County, California pretty much the whole thing used to be wooded. Then some dicks arrived and started shooting the natives and cutting down trees to make room to graze cattle. Then a while later the US Gov't paid people to plant black walnut trees. There was no particular demand for the walnuts, which with their tough shells are much more labor-intensive to harvest than acorns. They also don't produce anywhere near the nutrition of the acorns, so what they were actually doing was attempting to commit genocide by the simple expedient of eliminating an entire peoples' food source, just as they had done with the buffalo. (Just as a bull has two horns, besides "claiming the land" there was also the goal of making cattle ranching feasible.) A little after that they just sent the 1st Cavalry down and shot every man, woman and child on Bo-No-Po-Ti, what is now known as "Bloody Island".

      In other words, We The People deliberately deforested this country (After all, YOU ARE THE GOVERNMENT) and most of the places you're talking about really need to be returned to forest. See, the Earth is in the process of shaking us off like a bad cold. If we don't go the other way and heal the host, then it's going to get worse before it gets better, and conditions won't support us here any more.

      Timber harvesting depletes soil, not least through erosion. Without an understory the soil is not protected. Without soil you can't support plant life. Without plants you can't support animal life. Nature abhors monocultures and vacuums alike. HTH, HAND.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    122. Re:purell by mdielmann · · Score: 1

      Well, I have to wonder how many pages of throwaway magazines and newspapers a single kindle could replace. 100, 1000, 10000, more? Perhaps it is more eco-friendly. And cheaper.
      Sure, it won't change the number for those things that are collectible (novels, good magazines, references), but the kindle sure is more portable.

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
    123. Re:purell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Welcome

      Please provide your postal code to receive the best value in your area.

      For example: M4S6B7"
      Just use the example ;)

    124. Re:purell by fataugie · · Score: 1

      BINGO!

      You get a cookie.

      --

      WTF? Over?

    125. Re:purell by Killjoy_NL · · Score: 1

      Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee :D
      Some people are a little bit dense ;)

      I LOVE COOKIES :D

      --
      This is the sig that says NI (again)
    126. Re:purell by fataugie · · Score: 1

      Do you also piss in people's beer at the pub just because they don't like it?

      No, just enjoy pissing off dirty hippies at every chance I get. And I would probably piss on their feet when at the urinal.
      I can't get up on the bar like I could,...I'm gettting old.

      --

      WTF? Over?

    127. Re:purell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I drive past a tree farm on a regular basis. If it were shut down, it wouldn't return to forest. It would return to semi-desert scrubland.

      Like it or not, semi-desert scrub serves its own purpose and adds value (don't read as monetary) to surrounding ecosystems. By changing it to a managed tree farm (i.e. close to zero biodiversity) it has drastically changed its surroundings for the worse. Not just in terms of habitat for plants/animals but for nutrient cycles as well.

    128. Re:purell by psydeshow · · Score: 1

      If the Kindle interface becomes obsolete, port the information onto another medium and recycle the device.

      Assuming Jeff Bezos doesn't take the master Kindle DRM key to the grave, yes.

    129. Re:purell by Mattcelt · · Score: 1

      You forgot to factor in the exchange rate.

      10mi US = 100mi CN.

      Of course, Canada is all metric now, so all bets are off.

    130. Re:purell by Locklin · · Score: 1

      That's precisely why tree farming is an epic waste of land. It consumes vast land area that could be growing food, or existing as real forests (much of it is poor farm land), protecting biodiversity and our natural heritage. Anything that reduces our dependence on filling landfills with rotting cellulose is a positive in my book.

      --
      "Knowledge is the only instrument of production that is not subject to diminishing returns" -Journal of Political Econom
    131. Re:purell by tgd · · Score: 1

      You assume that'll ever balance out.

      Perfect example (and unfortunately I can't back it up but the source I read it in was reputable, even if I can't recall where it was...):

      It would take saving 5000-7000 paper cups to break even on the energy and resources used to make a ceramic mug when you take manufacturing and washing into account (unless you recycle the paper cups, which counterintuitively makes the ceramic mug break even vastly sooner).

      Its easy to assume incorrectly which side of the throw-away vs recycle vs reuse equation actually comes out ahead.

    132. Re:purell by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      Why? Because I don't smoke Tarryltons?

    133. Re:purell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If only there was some sort of signature field feature we could use to put our signature into so it can be filtered out by people sick of looking at obnoxious repetitive signatures.

      -jcr

    134. Re:purell by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      I do not know the whole world, but I live in a country which is a net paper exporter, and most paper is from planted eucalyptus trees. While you may argue about the environmental impact of eucalyptus planting, the fact is nearly any other wood is too valuable to use for paper. It is used for other purposes instead. Heck, hemp can be used to make high quality paper, and isn't used as much as eucalyptus because its considered to be too expensive, even when used in a rotation scheme with other crops.

    135. Re:purell by rgarbacz · · Score: 1

      It is not a general rule.

      Whilst there are ecosystems relying on periodic fires (e.g. in Australia), which (the ecosystems) evolved as a response to the very periodic fires, there are also ecosystems where fires are destructive and not needed. The died trees simply foll down and are decomposed by natural processes.

      I do not know Oregon well, but the dieing trees can be a result of many factors, e.g. pollution.

    136. Re:purell by jcr · · Score: 1

      Get over yourself, newb. I've been signing my posts since my FIDONET days, probably before you were born.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    137. Re:purell by Darby · · Score: 1


      We're coming to steal your cheese. But you can keep your crap beer.

      That's fine, but you should keep your tired old jokes that haven't even made any sense since the 80s.

    138. Re:purell by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 1

      I live adjacent to 250 acres of tree farm. It *is* a forest. No doubt about that.

      A forest has a variety of tree species of various sizes. It has large trees that have been growing for decades, it has seedlings, it has dead trees, and a whole bunch of undergrowth. It had a variety of animal life. Thick layers of humus enrich the soil.

      Trees farms have closely-spaced trees, all of about the same age. Moncultures are used. Vehicle traffic compacts the soil.

      A tree farm is simply not a forest.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    139. Re:purell by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 1

      If it were shut down, it wouldn't return to forest. It would return to semi-desert scrubland....Most places where trees are farmed for paper are like this: take a chunk of cheap land with good irrigation, plant a bunch of fast-growing trees, and harvest them every 15 years or so.

      Then reducing the consumption of trees for paper would reduce the consumption of fresh water, and of the energy used to pump it for irrigation. Even better.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
  2. Sold by Camann · · Score: 2, Funny

    "(Silicon Alley Insider recently calculated that the New York Times could save more than $300 million a year by shutting down its presses and buying every subscriber a Kindle)" You had me at Kindle.

    --
    I can't believe you don't know what a Hasemalphaginnojinglanaporphomism is.
    1. Re:Sold by RapmasterT · · Score: 3, Funny

      they had me at shutting down the presses.

    2. Re:Sold by AKAImBatman · · Score: 1

      STOP THE PRESSES!

    3. Re:Sold by ubrgeek · · Score: 1

      Except a decent number of papers have unions for the folks who run the presses. Would be an interesting battle.

      --
      Bark less. Wag more.
    4. Re:Sold by Plunky · · Score: 1

      Except a decent number of papers have unions for the folks who run the presses. Would be an interesting battle.

      That battle was fought and lost in the UK 20 years ago when the news was printed on Fleet street. Read all about it at Wapping dispute. In this day and age, the folks running the presses are not necessary.

    5. Re:Sold by RapmasterT · · Score: 3, Insightful

      wouldn't be the first industry a union rode into oblivion by refusing to accept the inevitable changes brought by technology.

    6. Re:Sold by hclewk · · Score: 1

      What would the unions do? Go on strike?

    7. Re:Sold by ubrgeek · · Score: 3, Funny

      Refuse to print stories about the Kindle?

      --
      Bark less. Wag more.
    8. Re:Sold by nospam007 · · Score: 1

      No battle at all. Papers are shutting down and moving to an online version every other day.

      There aren't many readers left.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_newspapers_in_the_United_States_by_circulation

      Cutting all those trees, paper and transport etc just to get a printout of 24-48 hour old news, which you read already online yesterday, then an hour later it gets used as bottom layer in the cat's shitbox.

    9. Re:Sold by toddles666 · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure I understand. Can we get a car analogy please?

    10. Re:Sold by Camann · · Score: 1
      --
      I can't believe you don't know what a Hasemalphaginnojinglanaporphomism is.
    11. Re:Sold by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The irony is, that you use the "You had me at..." meme in the exact opposite of its original intent.

      The "you had me at hello", meaning that you had me from the beginning, and no further explanation was needed. Since "Kindle" came at the very end of the sentence, you are implying that only after all is said and done, you are sold.

    12. Re:Sold by geekoid · · Score: 1

      What battle? at the worst, you can use attrition.

      This is probably the most practicle answer anyways. We aren't going to convert over night.

      Beside, what would the unions do? go on strike? Strike aren't effective when the company doesn't need you position anymore.

      That said, I need to become a subscriber before they latch on to this deal!

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    13. Re:Sold by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Coupons!
      The newspaper is a saving in our house hold.

      In fact, maybe they could remove all the stories and just sell coupon with ads..well ads besides the coupons.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    14. Re:Sold by Atario · · Score: 1

      Right, because if it weren't for unions, the newspapers would be having no trouble at all. They would somehow magically not be outmoded by the Internet. <eyeroll />

      --
      "A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
  3. heh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Shutting down factories, great idea!

    1. Re:heh... by jcr · · Score: 1

      Shutting down factories, great idea!

      Next thing you know, they'll be saying we should give up our whale-oil lamps!

      Shutting down any industrial operation with no prospect of returning to profitability is a great idea.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    2. Re:heh... by jlarocco · · Score: 1

      Shutting down factories, great idea!

      You know, if you just want people doing pointless busy work we can start paying unemployed people to dig holes and then fill them back in... It'd be boring, mundane and pointless, but it's a job, right!?!

    3. Re:heh... by homer_s · · Score: 1
      That is exactly what Dear Leader is doing now...

      Here is some Keynsian wisdom:

      If the Treasury were to fill old bottles with banknotes, bury them at suitable depths in disused coal mines which are then filled up to the surface with town rubbish, and leave it to private enterprise on well-tried principles of laissez-faire to dig the notes up again (the right to do so being obtained, of course by tendering for leases of the note-bearing territory), there need be no more unemployment and with the help of the repercussions, the real income of the community, and its capital wealth also, would probably become a good deal greater than it actually is.

      -- from The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money

      And it is this idiot's theories that are being implemented now.

  4. Oh noes by MrEricSir · · Score: 5, Funny

    eInk will never replace newspaper!

    How will we start beach bonfires? What will we line the bottom of the bird cage with? What will we do when we forget our umbrellas? What will we put under kitty's food bowl? What will we roll up and smack our friends with? How will we "copy" things with Silly Putty?

    --
    There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
    1. Re:Oh noes by 0racle · · Score: 4, Funny

      How will England sell fish and chips?

      --
      "I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
    2. Re:Oh noes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I start fires with kindle, sounds like that will stay the same.

    3. Re:Oh noes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      How will we start beach bonfires?

      Like real Men! With real tinder!

    4. Re:Oh noes by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1

      How will we start beach bonfires?

      Gasoline.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    5. Re:Oh noes by TheRaven64 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You haven't been able to sell fish and chips in newspaper for a long time, because of the ink being transferred into the food. Amazingly, this market has been filled by companies printing wax paper that looks like news print, which chippies buy to wrap the fish and chips.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    6. Re:Oh noes by Sabathius · · Score: 2, Funny

      How will we "copy" things with Silly Putty?

      You had me at Silly Putty.

    7. Re:Oh noes by GuldKalle · · Score: 1

      And when that's used up, then what? Do we chop down a windmill?

      --
      What?
    8. Re:Oh noes by Lumpy · · Score: 2, Funny

      How will we start beach bonfires?
      short the battery and stuff it under the wood. you'll have a fire soon.

      What will we line the bottom of the bird cage with?

      flexible plastic that you clean off. Why are you looking for a wasteful solution?

      What will we do when we forget our umbrellas?

      Get wet.

      What will we roll up and smack our friends with?

      Hit them with the kindle. or better yet a panasonic toughbook. They wont forget that one and you wont damage anything important.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    9. Re:Oh noes by durnurd · · Score: 1

      Isn't it obvious? eSilly Putty.

      --
      --Edward Dassmesser
    10. Re:Oh noes by durnurd · · Score: 1

      And while I'm at it, what do you need to start a bonfire? Kindling. Ii bet you can guess where that's going.

      --
      --Edward Dassmesser
    11. Re:Oh noes by mweather · · Score: 1

      How will we start beach bonfires?

      Potassium permanganate, magnesium, aluminum iron oxide and glycerin.

    12. Re:Oh noes by diamondsw · · Score: 4, Funny

      > How will we start beach bonfires?

      Kindle boxes!

      > What will we line the bottom of the bird cage with?

      Kindles!

      > What will we do when we forget our umbrellas?

      Kindles!

      > What will we put under kitty's food bowl?

      Kindles!

      > What will we roll up and smack our friends with?

      Kindles! (bonus for harder smackability)

      > How will we "copy" things with Silly Putty?

      Damn, you got me there. I knew there was something wrong with this Kindle-utopia. :-)

      --
      I don't know what kind of crack I was on, but I suspect it was decaf.
    13. Re:Oh noes by nsayer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      How will we start beach bonfires?

      Or, indeed, our charcoal grill chimney starters?

      Fortunately, the end of newspapers arrived almost a decade ago at our house. The workaround I use for the chimney starter is that I hold a propane plumbing torch under it for a minute or so. It's actually more reliable than the paper was anyway.

      Now if only I could come up with something like a "charcoal starter stand" that would hold the chimney starter over a natural gas flame for a minute (plumbed from the house gas lines), that would be really convenient.

    14. Re:Oh noes by glwtta · · Score: 1

      What will we line the bottom of the bird cage with?

      Kindle 1s?

      --
      sic transit gloria mundi
    15. Re:Oh noes by lymond01 · · Score: 1

      You make good points. And then I got to thinking...you could still use the ads you get in the mail to line your birdcage. Then I thought, well, why couldn't those ads be electronically sent as well. Why couldn't ALL mail be electronically sent? We wouldn't need little mailboxes, only package deliveries!

      Then I remembered e-mail and became less enthused.

    16. Re:Oh noes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gasoline.

      Good thinking, just let me grab my hose and hit up that old Escort in the lot over there...

    17. Re:Oh noes by RobBebop · · Score: 4, Funny

      sudo mod me up

      sudo make me a sandwich, and I'll mod you up.

      --
      Support the 30 Hour Work Week!!!
    18. Re:Oh noes by ckaminski · · Score: 1

      Dynamite. :-)

    19. Re:Oh noes by Phoenixhawk · · Score: 1

      How will we start beach bonfires?

      Gasoline.

      The Escort says Gas

      The Trans Am says Napalm :)

    20. Re:Oh noes by cthulu_mt · · Score: 1

      Setting the wind mill on fire requires less effort.

      --
      Virginia is for lovers. EVE is for griefers.
    21. Re:Oh noes by snspdaarf · · Score: 1

      Rub two spotted owls together.

      --
      Why, without your clothes, you're naked, Miss Dudley!
    22. Re:Oh noes by ivan256 · · Score: 1

      The workaround I use for the chimney starter is that I hold a propane plumbing torch under it for a minute or so.

      You may as well just use lighter fluid at that point... Works better than a chimney starter (if you do it right - not the stereotypical drench and light method) anyway.

    23. Re:Oh noes by ais523 · · Score: 1

      Nowadays fish and chips in England are sold on newsprint-quality paper, but not actually printed; they're packaged in the low-quality paper used to make newspapers, not newspapers themselves. So probably pretty easily, given that they already do without newspapers.

      --
      (1)DOCOMEFROM!2~.2'~#1WHILE:1<-"'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1"
    24. Re:Oh noes by Sapphon · · Score: 1

      How will we start beach bonfires?

      Kindling?

      --
      Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem.
    25. Re:Oh noes by Vreejack · · Score: 1

      Odd. In the USA newsprint is regulated by the Food and Drug Administration for the simple reason that is is often used in food preparation. For example, dangerous metals and volatile organic compounds are prohibited in newsprint.

      So go ahead wrap that fish, it's prolly more toxic than the newspaper.

      --
      "Will future ages believe that such stupid bigotry ever existed!" -- Ivanhoe
    26. Re:Oh noes by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

      *poof* sandwich appears on his desk...now he can mod the grandparent up.

    27. Re:Oh noes by RobBebop · · Score: 1

      $ sudo moderate discussion I've already posted in

      Error! (a)bort? (r)etry? (f)ail?

      > r

      Error! (a)bort? (r)etry? (f)ail?

      > f

      $ sudo fuck Slashdot

      Operation successful. Would you like a cigarette? (y/n)

      > n

      $ quit

      Good-bye!

      --
      Support the 30 Hour Work Week!!!
    28. Re:Oh noes by nsayer · · Score: 1

      You may as well just use lighter fluid at that point

      Yuck. Lighter fluid makes the steak taste like Vaseline.

      Works better than a chimney starter

      How, exactly? My chimney starter + propane torch method is 100% effective, and is ready in 10 minutes. Are you suggesting lighter fluid meets or exceeds that criteria without any negative side effects?

      (if you do it right - not the stereotypical drench and light method) anyway.

      The "if you do it right" part is also easier with chimney + torch.

    29. Re:Oh noes by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      Your cat reads the newspaper while eating breakfast?

      I'm impressed.

    30. Re:Oh noes by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

      Fail.

      sudo post anonymously requesting a sandwich in return for up-modding, so that you can actually mod rather than ruining it by posting first while logged in.

      DOH!

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    31. Re:Oh noes by RobBebop · · Score: 1

      You missed the other half of the joke...

      --
      Support the 30 Hour Work Week!!!
    32. Re:Oh noes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope. I'm a regular xkcd reader. Have it on an rss feed. I was short of my online assholery quota for the week, so I posted here. No hard feelings, I hope.

    33. Re:Oh noes by geekoid · · Score: 1

      sigh.

      Paper has worked 100% of the time for me, so I don't know why it's unreliable for you.

      Plumb a gas line to the house into the BBQ. Put charcoal on grill, turn on gas and light. After 30 seconds or so turn off the gas.

      I suggest using a flexible hose for the connected from the house to the BBQ so you can move it if need be.
      Critical:
      Use the correct valves and hose. If you do now what what I mean, talk to a professional before you blow up your house.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    34. Re:Oh noes by geekoid · · Score: 1

      If you must use lighter fluid, just use it on a few bricks, once they get going add more bricks. It's slower then dowsing the whole thing, but there isn't that funny after taste.

      Man, I can't wait until BBQ seasons starts up. I won't even be able to eat most of what I cook, but I do love cooking.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    35. Re:Oh noes by electrosoccertux · · Score: 1

      What will we roll up and smack our friends with?

      Hit them with the kindle. or better yet a panasonic toughbook. They wont forget that one and you wont damage anything important.

      To forget something someone has to have a memory of it first.

    36. Re:Oh noes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      > How will we start beach bonfires?

      Kindling!

    37. Re:Oh noes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How will we start beach bonfires

      I suspect in the same way you'd start a normal fire - with small, combustible materials to start the flame, a.k.a. Kindling :)

    38. Re:Oh noes by Atario · · Score: 1

      That's really funny.

      It's like when I went to an Asian market and saw the vegetarian section -- non-meat products simulating meat products which I, an avid meat-eater, could never make myself eat. Things like swallow balls, I kid you not. (That is, meatballs made of the meat of the swallow (birds of the family Hirundinidae).)

      Or how they used to make TVs (and lots of other things) out of plastic, but with a printed-on wood-grain pattern.

      There must be a name for this phenomenon of switching to something new, but unnecessarily simulating the thing you've left behind.

      --
      "A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
    39. Re:Oh noes by mrsurb · · Score: 1

      Maybe Apple could release a product that will copy images from the Kindle to an iPhone. iPutty. With full DRM of course.

    40. Re:Oh noes by Richard+W.M.+Jones · · Score: 1

      You're right that chippies use "fake" newspaper, but it's probably not because of the "dangers" of ink. I cook with newspaper a fair bit - eg. wrapping fish in damp newspaper before roasting in the oven so the scales come off when you unwrap it.

      The real reason is to do with the fact that it would take too many newspapers to service a busy chip shop.

      Rich.

    41. Re:Oh noes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How will we start beach bonfires?
      You use kindling to so start fires!

    42. Re:Oh noes by IpalindromeI · · Score: 1

      I wonder why they consider something made of swallow meat to be a non-meat product.

      There must be a name for this phenomenon of switching to something new, but unnecessarily simulating the thing you've left behind.

      Yes, it's called idiocy.

      --

      --
      Promoting critical thinking since 1994.
    43. Re:Oh noes by whoda · · Score: 1

      Crack smoker. Ink is soy based now for this very reason.

    44. Re:Oh noes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > How will we "copy" things with Silly Putty?

      Damn, you got me there. I knew there was something wrong with this Kindle-utopia. :-)

      Use the Silly Putty to hold the broken battery door on the Kindle!

    45. Re:Oh noes by Atario · · Score: 1

      I wonder why they consider something made of swallow meat to be a non-meat product.

      No, I mean such meatballs are what they simulated, using non-meat materials.

      --
      "A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
    46. Re:Oh noes by nsayer · · Score: 1

      Man, I can't wait until BBQ seasons starts up.

      Real men grill in a raincoat. And unless it takes 6 hours, they grill, they don't BBQ. :)

      And for your other reply, I am actually considering exactly what you suggest - setting up a natural gas "burner" just to use as the fire source for the chimney starter.

      I'd actually have a plumber come and plumb a valve in the line. I'm comfortable dealing with flexible NG piping so long as there's an easy to use shut-off valve within easy reach. And the way things are configured, it should be relatively easy for him to replace an elbow in the existing line with a T, then use a reducer and add the valve.

  5. While good in one way by bagboy · · Score: 1, Insightful

    the summary doesn't seem to indicate that while saving tons on printing press per year, you'll be costing businesses down the line money, lost jobs (think ink, delivery, machinery engineers), etc.... So while it may save one type of business, it may put others on the street.

    1. Re:While good in one way by Volante3192 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      the summary doesn't seem to indicate that while saving tons on cars per year, you'll be costing businesses down the line money, lost jobs (think feed, blacksmithing, carriage repairs), etc.... So while it may save one type of business, it may put others on the street.

    2. Re:While good in one way by manekineko2 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Your argument seems to me like an instance of the Broken Window Fallacy:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window.

    3. Re:While good in one way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's okay. Once their jobs are unneeded, the government can hire them to dig ditches with spoons and then fill the ditches in again.

      The net result will be that society gains nothing from innovation or technological advancement.

    4. Re:While good in one way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Asshat.

      These aren't exactly the best economic conditions for trying to blow an established industry out of the water.

      In better times, I'd agree with you, but not now.

    5. Re:While good in one way by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 4, Insightful

      the summary doesn't seem to indicate that while saving tons on printing press per year, you'll be costing businesses down the line money, lost jobs (think ink, delivery, machinery engineers), etc.... So while it may save one type of business, it may put others on the street.

      Like pretty much any other invention in the history of humanity, it may cost someone his (before, profitable) business model, but ultimately it benefits everyone on a much larger scale. This goes for telephone, automobile, airplane, TV, Internet...

    6. Re:While good in one way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah, ignorance.

    7. Re:While good in one way by bagboy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      except that theory indicates the harm to the first business. In this case, the first business' business model is broken - (subscription based-news) due to technology. Lowering costs does not fix the business model. If you want to salvage a newspaper, they HAVE to rethink their model.

    8. Re:While good in one way by greg_barton · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So while it may save one type of business, it may put others on the street.

      Shall I send you a buggy whip, sir?

      The math is simple. Say your subscription to the NY Times costs $1 per day, $365 per year. That's a Kindle. Even if you replace them every two years, and pay retail for them (which are both unlikely) you're still coming out on top if you give them away.

      I'm sorry, but we shouldn't support a business model if it's grossly inefficient, not in this day and age.

    9. Re:While good in one way by MozeeToby · · Score: 1

      That's really just another way of stating the broken window fallacy. One business saving money isn't bad for the economy because it just moves money around. The times could lower their subscription costs or invest the money elsewhere, either way the money will end up back in the economy somehow.

      Forcing one business to pay money for something that it doesn't really need doesn't help the economy. Imagine if everyone got their NY Times through the Kindle, would you suggest returning to print to boost the economy?

    10. Re:While good in one way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      By giving away sex for free, your mom is putting hard-working prostitutes out of business.

    11. Re:While good in one way by Nimey · · Score: 1

      So? The car industry drove buggy manufacturers and their suppliers out of business, and we got along just fine without them. Adapt or die.

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    12. Re:While good in one way by sunking2 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Actually, the summary doesn't do a very good job because the cost savings probably aren't really there. At $360 a pop you are talking probably over a year before you save anything as only a portion of each papers sale could be put towards the endeavor. On top of that you have to somehow come up with the money to buy all these things. Reality means a massive loan (Which who would loan the Times a dime on such a crazy idea in this day?). A loan means interest, there goes your cost savings.

      Now if you assumed everyone already had a kindle and just had to change delivery that's another story. Not too likely though, especially for the Times which sells all over the world.

    13. Re:While good in one way by timeOday · · Score: 5, Funny

      Well, that's because every discussion about economics on slashdot reminds somebody of the broken windows fallacy. In a few minutes somebody will claim Kindle is a hoax because saving energy on newspaper presses violates (their understanding of) the laws of thermodynamics. Then somebody else will say turning pages on Kindle is inherently unreliable because of the halting problem.

    14. Re:While good in one way by jlmale0 · · Score: 1

      You point this out as if it's automatically a bad thing. While there are upsides and downsides, on the whole, it's called: progress.

      Cite the absence of ink and paper, and one can just as easily counter with the saved trees and prevented pollution. Yes, those in the recycling industry just lost some work, but balance this against a cleaner community.

      Cite the printers and distributors as lost jobs and then balance against the infrastructure needed to repair/replace these things.

      Before we get too far down the path of bemoaning lost careers, who here would rather be a mudlark?

    15. Re:While good in one way by fataugie · · Score: 2, Informative

      I'm sorry, you are the one that's working under an incorrect assumption.

      You ASSUME you'll be able to BUY a Kindle2.
      The Kindle 1 was almost never in stock...and I looked often.
      It was always on a pre-order basis. ;-)

      --

      WTF? Over?

    16. Re:While good in one way by Vellmont · · Score: 1

      If it really does displace the printing press (a very big if) I'd say it's much closer to a negative externality. e.g. Who pays for the effects on the workers displaced by this technology?

      --
      AccountKiller
    17. Re:While good in one way by nine-times · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It was always on a pre-order basis. ;-)

      Does that mean that, if you order one, you'll eventually get one? Just not right away?

      Either way, if there were enough buyers, I'm sure Amazon would ramp up production. When there are shortages like this, it's often because they don't want to ramp up production too much and then end up with a surplus they can't sell.

    18. Re:While good in one way by zach_the_lizard · · Score: 5, Funny

      I agree! In the name of not harming anyone, we should never allow progress in these troubling times. Why, think of all the jobs we'll save! I just bought a set of torches, a horse, and a plow. Do your patriotic duty!

      But I have an even better idea. Why don't we use our military to evacuate cities and then destroy them. Think of all the jobs that will be created in the evacuation, military, and construction industries!

      --
      SSC
    19. Re:While good in one way by ppanon · · Score: 1

      Newspapers are losing circulation and bleeding money. If they go under, then those secondary jobs will be lost anyhow. If the newspapers manage to save enough to survive through adopting this technology, then at least you'll still have the newspaper jobs, not to mention the critical role they fulfil in maintaining an informed electorate.

      --
      Laissez lire, et laissez danser; ces deux amusements ne feront jamais de mal au monde. - Voltaire
    20. Re:While good in one way by MarkvW · · Score: 1

      Oh, the fickle tastes of consumers. . . and the frenzied manufacturers who chase them.

    21. Re:While good in one way by TheCycoONE · · Score: 1

      Arn't these economic conditions indicative that 'established industry' isn't feasible.

    22. Re:While good in one way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you will oblige me to call out, "Stop there! Your theory is confined to that which is seen; it takes no account of that which is not seen."

      Where I'm from, you'd get your ass kicked if you irrepsected peeps like dat.

    23. Re:While good in one way by fataugie · · Score: 1

      That's what I understood (you'd eventually get one), but who knows.
      I didn't wnat to take a chance.

      --

      WTF? Over?

    24. Re:While good in one way by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      It's closer to rescuing buggy-whip makers from the automobile, or candle-makers from the sun.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    25. Re:While good in one way by Ninnle+Labs,+LLC · · Score: 2, Funny

      not to mention the critical role they fulfil in maintaining an informed electorate.

      A what? Since when did one of those every exist?

    26. Re:While good in one way by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      I would assume that (a) the New York Times would take this into consideration and that (b) if they bought one for each of their subscribers, some arrangements could be made to ensure they got enough.

    27. Re:While good in one way by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      Hasn't someone pointed out yet that the Times could then sell other publishers 'rights' to let their publications also be displayed on the NYTKindle? It's called licensing, I think.

      Another revenue stream, the other publishers avoid having to lay out the capital to seed the world with *another* Kindle for their subscribers, fewer trees cut down, even more paperworkers sent home without pay.

      Nonetheless, whoever makes the first move could benefit the industry, the world, and their bottom line. I which order doesn't bother me one bit, so long as all three occur.

      Now for Warner or Sony to get it and send out MP3 players with their whole catalog on it for a plain old fee. Let others... oh, wait, that isn't much different than iTunes. nevermind.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    28. Re:While good in one way by eleuthero · · Score: 1

      Is that the same situation though? Horse care and carriage repair went towards a similarly skilled labor situation--car mechanics need to have training in order to be able to do what they do just as vets / carriage repairment did as well. Will a Kindle digital delivery system need anywhere near that kind of manpower? Is it of a similar skill level? (And yes, I am aware some have this idea that a car mechanic need not be as skilled as a vet, but it strikes me as inappropriate considering the intricacies of even early cars--nowhere near those of live animals but with greater knowledge base).

    29. Re:While good in one way by strength_of_10_men · · Score: 1

      you're so right on. it's a good thing those kindle things just appear magically, right?

    30. Re:While good in one way by mweather · · Score: 1

      The parable of the broken windows is more about fairness than anything else. Whether the shopkeeper or glazier spends the money is irrelevant to the economy.

    31. Re:While good in one way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      oh noes!! let's stop the steam powered boats! we will all suffer famine due the job losses!- this really happened. guess what? the idea was good and survived, cutting millions of jobs in the long run. let's all go protesting on the street! immagine the sheer amount of jobs it would create mandating man powered fluvial transportation. sorry, but it doesn't work this way

    32. Re:While good in one way by LotsOfPhil · · Score: 1

      Reality means a massive loan (Which who would loan the Times a dime on such a crazy idea in this day?).

      Carlos Slim.

      --
      This post climbed Mt. Washington.
    33. Re:While good in one way by blueforce · · Score: 1

      You forgot to ask rhetorically if he's new here.

      This is Slashdot, you must be new here.

      --
      If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
    34. Re:While good in one way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The original poster's argument WAS the broken window fallacy, though:

      Simply because something leads to money being spent, doesn't mean it's a useful expenditure of money. In this case, the New York Times business model would be more efficient, the readers would have a more convenient format which costs less/the same, and the printing press/paper mills/whatever would either have to adapt or dissolve.

      Unless, you're saying that costs be damned, we MUST PROTECT THE BUGGY WHIP INDUSTRY. (Which is the more adept metaphor, but really it's a subset of the broken window fallacy)

    35. Re:While good in one way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The New York Times and most other papers are facing bankruptcy. That means all those businesses down the line will suffer regardless. What this would at least do is help the news papers keep their own doors open.

      Not to mention that when making a business decision of this magnitude, worrying about your suppliers should really be the last thing they worry about.

    36. Re:While good in one way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Considering that most newspapers are owned by larger corporations, I don't feel they are doing a good job of informing the electorate. More like misinforming them.

    37. Re:While good in one way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      do you know her website number? I'm gonna gird my loins and get me some of that.

    38. Re:While good in one way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but you spend that $1 a day in chunks. If I had to pay for the whole year's subscription at once, then I would not do it. In this case the reader would have to buy the device *and* pay a subscription fee.

    39. Re:While good in one way by manekineko2 · · Score: 1

      But this is the Broken Window Fallacy. If you're going to call me out for saying so as being too obvious, then it seems like you should call out the post I responded to for causing me to respond with pointing it out.

      Just because we have more jobs now making ink, and cutting down trees, and delivering newspapers, doesn't mean that it's a good thing to be having those jobs, if those jobs aren't creating value. Assuming the subscribers are just as happy with a Kindle, then the additional expenditures shifting money to those people create no additional value, they simply cost the publisher additional money that they could have been using productively to generate additional value.

    40. Re:While good in one way by Hijacked+Public · · Score: 2, Funny

      You just won 5,000,000 internets.

      It would have been 10,000,000 if you'd gone further and mentioned 1984 and DRM.

      --
      "Sacrifice for the good of The State" - The State
    41. Re:While good in one way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But I have an even better idea. Why don't we use our military to evacuate cities and then destroy them. Think of all the jobs that will be created in the evacuation, military, and construction industries!

      The sad thing being, we already do that. Not with OUR cities, mind you, but, you know, brown people's cities.

      There is a LOT of money to be made in military contracting. For example, sell the government bombs to blow up some middle eastern country, then having done so, get your friends in the government to give you no bid contracts to rebuild said country (as well as bases et all) AND sell the government new bombs. It's a win win! Doubly so if you can also sell the government mercenaries-- er, military contractors.

      Everyone goes home happy except for the brown people, who kinda get screwed, but who cares, they don't have lobbyists.

    42. Re:While good in one way by RobBebop · · Score: 1

      You didn't want to risk eventually getting one? It seems like checking availability may not have been your best course of action. :-P

      All kidding aside... I understand your plight of waiting until it is "available" to buy it.

      --
      Support the 30 Hour Work Week!!!
    43. Re:While good in one way by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "But I have an even better idea. Why don't we use our military to evacuate cities and then destroy them. Think of all the jobs that will be created in the evacuation, military, and construction industries!"

      The Khmer Rouge tried basically that, but the jobs thing didn't pan out. Their HR department was a tad harsh and tended to alienate surviving workers.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    44. Re:While good in one way by cthulu_mt · · Score: 1

      The Cobblers Guild does not appreciate your use of horses.

      --
      Virginia is for lovers. EVE is for griefers.
    45. Re:While good in one way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      except that theory indicates the harm to the first business. In this case, the first business' business model is broken - (subscription based-news) due to technology. Lowering costs does not fix the business model. If you want to salvage a newspaper, they HAVE to rethink their model.

      Yeah and that's what we want, for industry to progress. That way the vast manpower going into doing it the old way will be repurposed in a more productive way, possibly even in a way that reduces pollution and waste (I know trees for newsprint are grown renewably for that purpose, but not really the chemicals, etc., and there are recycling costs).

      We moved on from manual labor for weaving, many types of assembly (e.g. automotive), machining, and all sorts of other businesses. Industries evolve, we want everyone in society to have a shot at a job as close to all the time as we can get, but we don't want to keep them working in the same job if we don't need it, that's waste.

      If billions in materials and labor can be saved by this technology (and that is in question right now) we very much want it for the good of the world.

      There is no way in which this is bad, in any way comparable to its intrinsic good, if the analysis turns out to be true.

    46. Re:While good in one way by Experiment+626 · · Score: 3, Funny

      You seem to think that discussions here always wind up with the same old erroneous arguments. If that were the case, Slashdot would lose its common carrier status.

    47. Re:While good in one way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, it is the same situation. The difference is that most of those people whose jobs were displaced are going to find a different sector of the economy to work in rather than evolving with the transition. If the US plans on remaining a world economic power, we will need more manufacturing jobs, and their training will suffice.

      If not, they'll have to find some other work to do, but that's life. You can't expect the market to remain static just to keep jobs from shifting from one sector to another. This is why the auto bailouts, for example, remain a bad idea: creating artificial demand will result in market inefficiency (because no matter how many cars Chrysler pumps out, people won't buy them if they don't want them) along with wasted effort and resources that are diverted from where they are needed more.

    48. Re:While good in one way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WWII was quite good for the US economy. The important thing to remember is to destroy other nations' cities and then rebuild them.

    49. Re:While good in one way by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1

      Your observation about slashdot is true. But it is also true that this guy's comment was an example of the broken window fallacy. It's a textbook example, actually.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    50. Re:While good in one way by ppanon · · Score: 1

      That's pretty well the case with all corporate media these days, although there are exceptions. Where those exceptions exist, they generally involve newspapers. For example, McClatchy's Washington bureau does good work.

      While it will be hard to roll back the clock, we can hope that media ownership rules will be tightened again under the Obama administration. With the drop in advertising during this particularly harsh recession, the conglomerates are making major cutbacks and may need to close some of the less profitable operations. That could leave some openings for new independent media outlets during a recovery, if the regulatory framework helps protect them.

      --
      Laissez lire, et laissez danser; ces deux amusements ne feront jamais de mal au monde. - Voltaire
    51. Re:While good in one way by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      not to mention the critical role they fulfil in maintaining an informed electorate.

      A what? Since when did one of those every exist?

      They have elected honest politicians, who have succeeded in creating a working fully-deregulated free market. This resulted in a technological singularity within weeks, that had quietly transcended Earth and moved beyond - which is why you haven't heard of that whole story.

    52. Re:While good in one way by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      You ASSUME you'll be able to BUY a Kindle2.
      The Kindle 1 was almost never in stock...and I looked often.
      It was always on a pre-order basis. ;-)

      You don't have to buy a Kindle - there are plenty of alternatives, especially if you just need a small and light basic reader with long battery life and no built-in browser, WiFi, or other fancies. Personally, I prefer Sony PRS-505.

    53. Re:While good in one way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, it's always a pain in the ass when your personal opinion isn't being rammed down everyone's throats, right?

    54. Re:While good in one way by VeNoM0619 · · Score: 1

      The math is simple. Say your subscription to the NY Times costs $1 per day, $365 per year. That's a Kindle. Even if you replace them every two years, and pay retail for them (which are both unlikely) you're still coming out on top if you give them away.

      Assuming people aren't cutting out the coupons on the Sunday edition...

      --
      Disclaimer: I am not god.
      We may not be created equal
      But we can be treated equal.
    55. Re:While good in one way by Bearhouse · · Score: 1

      I agree! In the name of not harming anyone, we should never allow progress in these troubling times. Why, think of all the jobs we'll save! I just bought a set of torches, a horse, and a plow. Do your patriotic duty!

      But I have an even better idea. Why don't we use our military to evacuate cities and then destroy them. Think of all the jobs that will be created in the evacuation, military, and construction industries!

      Hmmm...seems like advocating the lowering of fuel prices by destroying the world economy...oh wait....

    56. Re:While good in one way by jon3k · · Score: 1

      This is a logical fallacy called "The Broken Window Fallacy".

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window

    57. Re:While good in one way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're clearly clueless. Even though it might (arguably) be called progress, trying to disrupt the industry could cause more harm than good.

      For sake of argument, let's say Kindle could replace newspapers. That puts newspaper workers out-of-work. Will these out-of-work newspaper folks be employed by the Kindle industry? No. The bulk of the jobs would go to overseas assemblers of Kindles. In other words, your local economy is going to take a hit, and one that it can't really afford right now.

      In short, if a technology eliminates or jobs or transfers them far away, it isn't good for your local economy. People need jobs NOW. Don't destroy jobs them of technological bigotry.

    58. Re:While good in one way by zippthorne · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, he's right. "lost jobs" due to technology upgrades are not costs. To be sure, they are not good for the people who lose the jobs, but society as a whole benefits: those people are now freed to do something else, increasing the net wealth available to everyone.

      It doesn't map perfectly to the broken window fallacy, but it is certainly well related.

      If you always count "lost jobs" as costs, you'll never get beyond Mennonite colony levels of lifestyles. Come to think of it, you'll never get UP TO that level.

      Without the tractor to replace field workers, we couldn't afford to dedicate the manpower to medicine or developing plasma TVs. Your cushy office job couldn't exist without backbreaking laboring jobs being lost to productivity gains.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    59. Re:While good in one way by Narnie · · Score: 1

      Everyone goes home happy except for the brown people, who kinda get screwed, but who cares, they don't have lobbyists.

      Indeed they do have lobbyists, but instead of lobbying political ideas towards politicians, they tend to lob hand-grenades towards the neighbors.

      --
      greed@All_Evils:~#
    60. Re:While good in one way by Volante3192 · · Score: 1

      And yet we beg for that to happen every time an RIAA post comes around.

      Adapt or die is always the battle cry towards music distributors. How is this situation any different? Think about all those CD pressers and case makers who will go out of business. People that make the plastic for CDs. Maintenance on the machinery.

      Oh, and there's no real pity over the people who lost their jobs when vinyl or cassettes stopped being the top seller.

      Industry changes and it doesn't care if the market is a bull or a bear. If the future of newspapers is the Kindle, then so be it.

      It would be nice, of course, if some of those Kindle factories could be brought stateside... That last bit is quite the rub... really wrenches up my analogy...

    61. Re:While good in one way by ClubStew · · Score: 1

      Progress is definitely important, but laying off hundreds or thousands of workers degrades the overall economic conditions. There's only so much money for educational grants and loans that a lot of people (or even by their sheer laziness) will have to live off of social programs like wellfare. And that's a burden on society to have to pay. Maybe if someone were to do all the math society as a whole might fare slightly better, but nowhere near what a lot of poeple are probably thinking. (I don't agree lazy people deserve such privileges, but should we just let them die of starvation?)

      Educating people costs money, and as we automate (or replace like in this topic's manner) more and more, fewer and fewer people are required. Some additional jobs might created on building on that technology or making it better, but not enough to cover all the displaced workers. And do we really need more people behind the counters of even more McDonald's?

    62. Re:While good in one way by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Evacuate the cities first? hmmm, not not really a fun way to level them.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    63. Re:While good in one way by geekoid · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Right, in fact technology will get to a point where we will need to become a lot more socialist in our care for people.

      Lets talk about robots.
      Lets say I make a robot that can run the grill and fry stations at a fast food joint.
      Lets say the cost 25G a piece.

      I would displace nearly all worker who worked those stations. that approx 125,000 workers at Mcdonalds alone.

      Using modern methods of manufacturing, I wouldn't needs half that number to build and maintain those robots.

      If the robots had the capabilities of the robots in iRobot*(minus the kill all humans feature) it would displace every person who has physical work.

      Society will change to a more socialist form, either guided or after a mass breakdown.
      SO what do we do?
      Perhaps tax robot work to pay for education?
      What about non essentials like TV? Bear in mind that TV can help mass riots and disturbances from happening.

      What do I do? would there be enough money to support street performance?

      We will get to this point in technology, and it wouldn't hurt to have some sort of ideas to think about now.

      *I haven't seen it I am inferring from the commercials.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    64. Re:While good in one way by maxume · · Score: 1

      Kindle2 is in stock now.

      And usually, Amazon doesn't charge you until they ship, so if you wanted exactly a Kindle (and not just an ebook reader), I'm not sure what chance you would be taking.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    65. Re:While good in one way by maxume · · Score: 1

      I saw a Bezos interview where he said that they thought they had made pretty aggressive estimates about sales of the first Kindle (i.e., they thought they would have enough). I suppose they took that into account for the Kindle2 (hopefully they ramp up and cut prices...).

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    66. Re:While good in one way by eh2o · · Score: 1

      Don't worry, the economy sucks and they are expensive. Hence, available.

    67. Re:While good in one way by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      We will get to this point in technology, and it wouldn't hurt to have some sort of ideas to think about now.

      If you get to the point where robots, for the most part, truly replace people, then you kill scarcity for most stuff. At that point, you can actually have proper, non-utopian communism ("From everyone according to their abilities, to everyone according to their needs").

    68. Re:While good in one way by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Progress is definitely important, but laying off hundreds or thousands of workers degrades the overall economic conditions.

      We aren't talking about that happening overnight, though - it's going to be a matter of several years at best, and more likely decades. It's not like several million people will truly rush out tomorrow to buy Kindles, and cancel their paper subscriptions.

    69. Re:While good in one way by johnsonav · · Score: 1

      Whether the shopkeeper or glazier spends the money is irrelevant to the economy.

      No, it is very relevant. Actually, it's the whole point of the parable. If the window had never been broken, the shopkeeper would have spent the money in a more productive way: investing in capital goods, hiring a new employee, or saving the money and reducing his prices. Instead, because of the broken window, he is forced to spend that money less productively.

      Sure, the money gets spent either way. But, before the window was broken, the economy as a whole, had a window and the money. After the window breaks, the economy is down one window.

      --
      ... and that's when the C.H.U.D.'s came at me.
    70. Re:While good in one way by Killjoy_NL · · Score: 1

      Personally since I live in the Netherlands I can't get the Kindle 2.
      I checked out the Sony offerings, but the 500 is quite limited in it's features and the 700 has a bad review on Gizmodo.
      I'm thinking about getting this one, the Iliad 2nd edition.
      https://www.irexshop.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_27&products_id=64&osCsid=9095fdd3cc8a4c965f838c95ea72233c

      It's expensive though at 599 euros (+/-759 dollars).

      --
      This is the sig that says NI (again)
    71. Re:While good in one way by Richy_T · · Score: 1

      It may cost the NYT much more than that to print & deliver the papers though (it may actually say if I RTFAed). Don't forget, their income is based on subscription *and* advertising.

      Maybe they could retrain the printers as fact checkers. God knows they could use them.

    72. Re:While good in one way by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      I checked out the Sony offerings, but the 500 is quite limited in it's features

      If you really mean 500, that it's the old one with non-Vizplex (prev. generation) screen. I would not recommend it. 505 is the one with the new screen. 700 is essentially 505 with touchscreen.

      As for the features - consider whether you actually need them. WiFi sounds cool, but how useful is it in practice, if you can load the books on an SD card anyway? Browser (or any other productivity app) on a eInk device is pretty useless because it takes ~1s to redraw the screen. Even touch screen is of questionable utility - when reading non-technical literature, I've yet to encounter a single case where I wanted to mark some text, or put annotations on comments; and what else does it buy you? As for technical stuff, current eInk readers can't handle it properly anyway, because it's usually in PDF or such, and has a lot of images or annotations. Neither goes well for a smallish, (relatively) low-DPI screen we have today.

      Well, maybe except for iRex, indeed. But at that price - and it's been that high for a looong time now... I'd rather wait for 1-2 more years to get it for a more reasonable amount.

    73. Re:While good in one way by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      We already had something which was much like this at a point: it was called slavery. It didn't mean free citizens stopped having things to do though. Fact is, the robots will still have to be supervised, fixed, someone will have to input orders, and some people may not have the money to own robots for a certain task. Someone will have to do creative tasks (unless robots can do those too). Some people may want to work just for the heck of it. Its not like people do not have hobbies now. If it gets cheap enough, eventually there will be free bread and circus for everyone I guess, society may grow weak and sedated as the Romans did, but alas that is life.

    74. Re:While good in one way by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      IMO it is more akin the invention of the reusable lightbulb replacing disposable candles. But sometimes progress goes the other way around: replacement of handkerchiefs with tissue paper.

    75. Re:While good in one way by ClubStew · · Score: 1

      I hardly see how that's comparable. Slaves are still people and limited compared to robots of iRobot (yeah, still a long way off but certainly doable). And times were harder in some ways back the, requiring much more work than today. More people - slaves or free - were required to even push information around (even back when there was actually tubes).

      In this event, yes, socialism or something like it will be required - assuming the robots realize they don't need us and kill us off like in Terminator and so many others that show what happens when you break any of the Three Rules of Robotics. But that's also a long way off. Most people fear the very words "socialism" and "communism" because of history or just not understanding them. Even recent talks in the U.S. about nationalizing banks scares most people who start spouting "Yeah, like Japan!" and all sorts of stuff not thinking rationally through all the scenarios.

      But we are living in the "now". Problems are happening now. Now is not the time to worry only for investors (frankly, I don't think that time is ever right). As people are laid off the economy is affected adversely. People without jobs means more burden on social programs which may require higher taxes and less spending by people and companies to cope (especially those now without jobs). And that leads to fewer jobs. Further down the downward spiral we go.

  6. outsourcing cheaper: News at 11 by fantomas · · Score: 3, Interesting

    "(Silicon Alley Insider recently calculated that the New York Times could save more than $300 million a year by shutting down its presses and buying every subscriber a Kindle)."

    Third world labourers wage bills significantly lower than those in developed countries: your company will save money by closing down local presses and giving people output from developing countries.

    More news on this channel shortly, don't look away!

    1. Re:outsourcing cheaper: News at 11 by bugs2squash · · Score: 1

      Indian citizens should dress up as americans and wear makeup and body padding to look like us too. That way they could do short clips of themselves grinning inanely while they describe whatever horrific shooting of a loved one they have just witnessed because they are overcome by the novelty of being on TV. CNN can then dispense with covering actual events and truly outsource the "bollywood-news". All actual current events could then safely shut down in the USA and we can stop shooting each other.

      --
      Nullius in verba
    2. Re:outsourcing cheaper: News at 11 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Aha and you wait a week for your fresh off the press newspaper to arrive from China.

      You sir are a genious. Hooray for offshoring.

    3. Re:outsourcing cheaper: News at 11 by RockClimbingFool · · Score: 1

      Lots of small towns in the US already outsource their local news. The one FOX station in Huntsville, AL has its news produced somewhere in Iowa.

      I sthink they have ome local people with cameras for clips, but the on air personalities are in Iowa.

    4. Re:outsourcing cheaper: News at 11 by timeOday · · Score: 3, Interesting

      In your world, are cellphones a ploy to put bike messengers out of work?

    5. Re:outsourcing cheaper: News at 11 by Hordeking · · Score: 1

      Lots of small towns in the US already outsource their local news. The one FOX station in Huntsville, AL has its news produced somewhere in Iowa.

      I sthink they have ome local people with cameras for clips, but the on air personalities are in Iowa.

      [Citation Needed]

      --
      Disclaimer: The opinions and actions of the US Gov't are in no way representative of those held by this author or its ci
    6. Re:outsourcing cheaper: News at 11 by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Really? First result!

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    7. Re:outsourcing cheaper: News at 11 by larry+bagina · · Score: 1

      citation? They're not missing half their teeth and hopped up on meth.

      --
      Do you even lift?

      These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

    8. Re:outsourcing cheaper: News at 11 by RockClimbingFool · · Score: 1

      See the Wikipedia entry for Fox Huntsville, WZDX.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WZDX

    9. Re:outsourcing cheaper: News at 11 by mangu · · Score: 1

      [Citation Needed]

      OK, do you want the cheapest one or do you have real bucks to spend?

    10. Re:outsourcing cheaper: News at 11 by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      [Citation Needed]

      This and "fixed that for you" are two phrases that indicate to me that the poster is an idiot.

    11. Re:outsourcing cheaper: News at 11 by kestasjk · · Score: 1

      "(Silicon Alley Insider recently calculated that the New York Times could save more than $300 million a year by shutting down its presses and buying every subscriber a Kindle)."

      Because subscribers make up the largest part of the New York Timer's readership..

      --
      // MD_Update(&m,buf,j);
    12. Re:outsourcing cheaper: News at 11 by Hordeking · · Score: 1

      [Citation Needed] This and "fixed that for you" are two phrases that indicate to me that the poster is an idiot.

      Actually, I just didn't think that would come up on google. I was hoping he'd respond with the webpage he read it on.

      --
      Disclaimer: The opinions and actions of the US Gov't are in no way representative of those held by this author or its ci
    13. Re:outsourcing cheaper: News at 11 by adolf · · Score: 1

      No. In my world, fax machines exist to put bike messengers out of work. And SMTP exists to put fax machines out of work.

    14. Re:outsourcing cheaper: News at 11 by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      It's a sign that, 1) you probably didn't even look, and 2) you can't ask for what you are looking for, and instead use someone elses words to ask the question, and it isn't even a question, but a belittling of their statement by indicating it isn't worth believing because it isn't substantiated, with the apparent hope that they'll answer the question that you didn't ask and haven't even tried to answer for yourself.

    15. Re:outsourcing cheaper: News at 11 by Hordeking · · Score: 1

      It's a sign that, 1) you probably didn't even look, and 2) you can't ask for what you are looking for, and instead use someone elses words to ask the question, and it isn't even a question, but a belittling of their statement by indicating it isn't worth believing because it isn't substantiated, with the apparent hope that they'll answer the question that you didn't ask and haven't even tried to answer for yourself.

      1) You're right. I didn't look. I had never even heard of it before.
      2) I thought it seemed straightforward enough, and I always thought the reference was funny, since it's out of place, yet succinct.

      No hard feelings. I got my answer.

      --
      Disclaimer: The opinions and actions of the US Gov't are in no way representative of those held by this author or its ci
  7. Kindle 2 got your tongue? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Here are some objections Ive heard raised about the Kindle, and my opinions:

            * Its not open; that is, you cant program it. The Kindle is not a computer. Its an appliance. I cant reprogram my digital watch either. This just does not bother me.
            * eInk cant be backlit, so its hard to read in dim light or the dark. Thats true, although its also true of ordinary books. It would be nice if they could improve this somehow.
            * Its hard to share a copy of a book, other than by sharing the reader. Actually you can move a book to the SD card, and move that to another Kindle. Its not hard.
            * Pictures do not render well. Thats true. Whats more, at least one book we read was supposed to have a map that would have helped the reader understand the book, and the map was entirely missing.
            * You might lose your Kindle, and its not cheap to replace, although you do get all your data (books, your own annotations) back from Amazon. Thats true, just as it is of my notebook computer. This complaint really has to do with the whole concept of ebooks versus print books, not the Kindle specifically.

    I am not a real Kindle expert; I dont read the blogs or anything. Theres a great deal more information available at Amazon and many web sites. One good one is Top 25 Kindle Tips.

    I have not tried the Sony reader or any other book reader. There are rumors about a second-generation Kindle coming out, but I dont know anything about it.

    Summary: It sucks ass. Big time.

    1. Re:Kindle 2 got your tongue? by Daravon · · Score: 2, Funny

      Your (troll?) post confuses me to no end. You seem to rebuke criticism of the Kindle in your points while admitting there might some truth to the complaints. That sounds like you like it.

      Jump ahead to your summary, and you say "it sucks ass".

      Inbetween those areas, you reference an outdated rumor about a now confirmed/release second Kindle.

      Summary: You work for Fox News.

      --
      I traded all my mod points for these magic beans.
    2. Re:Kindle 2 got your tongue? by InsaneProcessor · · Score: 1

      I can borrow a lot of books from the library as well as read them at home on my computer for way less money. It's just too expensive and then, you still have to buy the books.

      --

      Athiesm is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.
    3. Re:Kindle 2 got your tongue? by mweather · · Score: 1

      Its hard to share a copy of a book, other than by sharing the reader. Actually you can move a book to the SD card, and move that to another Kindle. Its not hard.

      Really? What's the point of the DRM, then?

    4. Re:Kindle 2 got your tongue? by Steauengeglase · · Score: 1

      I could be wrong, but I seem to recall that the new Kindle doesn't support SD cards.

  8. Ad revenue by darkdaedra · · Score: 0

    Silicon Valley Insider notes that the so called savings would kill ad revenue. Lets not forget where most publications make most of their revenue. The real trick here is to make a profitable ad delivery system on portable devices in order to make subsidized delivery of the devices a real possibility.

    1. Re:Ad revenue by icebike · · Score: 1

      Your point about ad revenue is well made, even if you predicted the wrong result.

      Ads will infest the Kindle. But since its off-line, they will be bigger, more intrusive, and fully embedded. Your 10 paragraph news story will come with 10 megabytes of ads.

      The revenue stream lives on. Fear not.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    2. Re:Ad revenue by Camann · · Score: 1

      Maybe someone could expand upon this for me, but if the NY Times did shut down presses and buy everyone a Kindle, couldn't they display ads as pictures to the kindle users? Thus (assuming as well that all their subscribers are given Kindles) all the money advertisers spend is still going to ads viewed by the same people... doesn't it equal out?

      I mean the subscribers are STILL subscribers. To keep getting the paper electronically delivered they have to pay still right?

      --
      I can't believe you don't know what a Hasemalphaginnojinglanaporphomism is.
    3. Re:Ad revenue by Ninnle+Labs,+LLC · · Score: 1

      How does the use of e-books preclude the inclusion of ads into said e-books?

  9. Costs or Price? by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Their costs may drop but are we going to see a reduction in price? If the Music industry is any indication we'll pay more for the 'ability' to use the Kindle.

    Vinyl records were large, required manufacturing and shipping. MP3s only require bandwidth and a server. (Which isn't free, but much cheaper, and scales up much better). With the whole TTS issue I'm guessing that the Printing industry is going to copy the Music industry (and Video industry)...

    1. Re:Costs or Price? by flnca · · Score: 1

      Their costs may drop but are we going to see a reduction in price?

      The featured article talks about exactly that. HP currently develops a technology to print the backplane and E-Ink film. This will drop the prices in the long run below those of LCDs, and we'll get flexible plastic displays with E-Ink technology.

      Does it run Linux? Yes, it does! :)
      The developer kit for E-Ink comes with a display and Linux. There's also an X driver for the new E-Ink GPU already.

      Color displays are also in the make, but that might take another 2 years or so.

    2. Re:Costs or Price? by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 1

      I was talking Content.

  10. As a Heads Up by value_added · · Score: 5, Informative

    For anyone interested, Jeff Bezos is scheduled to appear tonight on Charlie Rose on your local PBS station.

    No doubt, he'll spend most of his time talking about Kindle.

  11. how long before we spammed to death on Kindle? by peter303 · · Score: 1

    The "free" online version of the NY Times contains a minimum of three animated advertisments per article and sometimes more. It takes a few seconds to download an article. Its OK when I read 20 or 30 articles on the average day. But its more like 100-150 on Sunday. I can read the newsprint version in half the time then and frequently buy it then.
    Kindle currently uses a paid-subscription model instead of ads. And quite a pricey one for the Times at $14 a month. I'd go broke if I got everything I read through Kindle (they only have 30 newspapers and magazine now).

    1. Re:how long before we spammed to death on Kindle? by icebike · · Score: 1

      > Kindle currently uses a paid-subscription model instead of ads.

      Oh Yeah, that will last. Riiiiight!

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    2. Re:how long before we spammed to death on Kindle? by mrsteele · · Score: 1

      Wait, you think $14/month for the Sunday Times is pricey? Do you live in Manhattan? I lived in NJ 6 years ago and the Sunday NYT was selling for $4-6. That's more than the $14 you claim per month.

      Frankly, if I still lived in the area I would have a daily subscription. I'd be proud to support the NYT, given its quality.

  12. I guess this explains... by glitch23 · · Score: 1

    why it costs so much. Amazon and E Ink need to recoup their R&D costs. At $150 million for those costs, it might be a while before anyone considers lowering the price.

    --
    this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom. -- Lincoln, Gettysburg Address
    1. Re:I guess this explains... by moosesocks · · Score: 2, Informative

      The Motorola F3 has a (fairly rudimentary) E-Ink display, and only costs about $25 for an unlocked handset.

      If they can get these things in a lot of devices, the $150mil R&D should be easily recoverable. Remember that the Kindle also includes a wireless modem, storage, and a decent amount of processing power.

      --
      -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
    2. Re:I guess this explains... by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      The Motorola F3 has a (fairly rudimentary) E-Ink display, and only costs about $25 for an unlocked handset.

      It's precisely because F3 display is very rudimentary - it's segmented, not raster, so it has very few very large "pixels". Scaling from that to proper displays is pretty tricky, though there had been some progress in the last 3 years, especially in terms of contrast.

  13. Saving or just another Lock In by icebike · · Score: 3, Insightful

    > What we've got here is a technology that could be saving the world $80 billion a year,' Wilcox says."

    Really?
    What happened to the 80 billion worth of printers, loggers, paper mills, transport, and fish-wrappers? Did they all go on Welfare so we can ship their jobs overseas to the Kindle manufacturing countries?

    News print is a renewable resource. Is the Plastic in Kindle?

    You can look around the ads (or read them as you see fit) in newsprint.

    Will you be able to do that on the Kindle when corporate sponsors for media grab control of the device and make you stare at an advertisement for 6 seconds prior to viewing the content of a story?

    Kindle might be great for books, but remember, its principal reason for being is to enforce DRM, to keep the book you bought on ONE device, to prevent sharing, or even transfer.

    Netbooks is where mass media is going. And once you have a netbook, who needs a Kindle.

    --
    Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    1. Re:Saving or just another Lock In by rhsanborn · · Score: 2, Insightful

      As a Sony Reader owner, I appreciate eInk reading significantly more than reading large amounts of text on a back-lit screen. It just feels easier on the eyes.

    2. Re:Saving or just another Lock In by vvaduva · · Score: 1

      Very good points - also, how do you "loan" a kindle book to a buddy that stopped by? You can't!

      Paper books are not binding the reader into some technical box owned by a corporation; they are not trademarked, they can be loaned, gifted, signed by the author, marked on, underlined, etc.

    3. Re:Saving or just another Lock In by cryfreedomlove · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Icebike,

      You make a good point about DRM and closed systems.

      However, your first point about loggers and paper mills is lost on me. Is is my moral duty to buy paper books so a logger can keep his current job? Was Henry Ford a bad person because he destroyed the demand for blacksmiths in the United States?

    4. Re:Saving or just another Lock In by nine-times · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Netbooks is where mass media is going. And once you have a netbook, who needs a Kindle.

      Kindles do have some features that your netbook probably doesn't. For one, it's very light, thin, and doesn't require you to open it like a clamshell device. Second, it has electronic ink, which lowers power consumption and supposedly is much easier on the eyes. Also, I've read that you get free wireless internet (via cell phone networks) to download books and such wherever you are.

      Now I don't know whether Kindles will ultimately do very well, but they aren't the same sort of device as a netbook.

    5. Re:Saving or just another Lock In by MozeeToby · · Score: 1

      What happened to the 80 billion worth of printers, loggers, paper mills, transport, and fish-wrappers? Did they all go on Welfare so we can ship their jobs overseas to the Kindle manufacturing countries?

      This is just the broken window fallacy, spending money on waste is still waste even if it supports other industries. If the NY Times distributed their paper 100% on the kindle today would you suggest that they move to print to save the economy?

      Netbooks is where mass media is going. And once you have a netbook, who needs a Kindle.quote>

      Personally, I would much, much rather have a device like a kindle for media. The screen is much easier on the eyes, free connectivity through the cell networks, better battery life, smaller, etc etc. Of course, I'm not everyone, so that's just my 2 cents.

    6. Re:Saving or just another Lock In by icebike · · Score: 1

      You are not obligated to do anything, of course.
      But you can not claim ONLY the saving without also acknowledging the costs.

      This is especially so when your claim to saving was "saving the WORLD 80 billion). Are those displaced not also in the WORLD?

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    7. Re:Saving or just another Lock In by merreborn · · Score: 2, Insightful

      once you have a netbook, who needs a Kindle.

      They're not comparable. Your average netbook has a battery life measured in hours. The Kindle's battery lasts over 30 hours. In addition, people report that the display is much more comfortable to read for long periods.

      And of course, the kindle is smaller and lighter, and includes free 3G internet access.

      Different tools for different jobs.

    8. Re:Saving or just another Lock In by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      to prevent sharing

      When the newspaper arrives at my house, I get the front section, someone else takes business, I can even let the little kids play with the sports section (which no one reads). Newsprint may be more expensive than buying everyone a Kindle. What about a Kindle for everyone in the house, each with their own copy of the newspaper?

    9. Re:Saving or just another Lock In by icebike · · Score: 1

      > This is just the broken window fallacy,

      It should be obvious to you that I read this story on a computer. I am well aware of the march of progress.

      However, I STILL expect the claims to "saving the world" be balanced by the costs to that same WORLD. Apparently, your accounting methods are less rigorous.

      My main point is that its not clear that this technology offers anything more than you can already get in a Netbook, other than the lock-in and DRM.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    10. Re:Saving or just another Lock In by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Creating and keeping jobs for the sake of it doesn't work. Ask Poland.

      These old vocations will eventually whither away, it won't happen over night, maybe not for decades. As it happens, people will simply fill the void for whatever is required at the time.

      Back in the 80s, I was enemy #1 where ever I worked. Why? Because I was implementing computer systems. Apparently I was going to be putting everyone out of a job. People did not hold back on their hate, they genuinely believed it. As history has shown us, this didn't happen, there are just as many people shuffling paper in offices around the world and computers have created vast industries and wealth. The same will happen with the new industries. Just come back in a decade or two and review you concerns.

      DRM and vendor lock-in is a different matter. That can fuck off along with devices that try to control our media. So as it stands, the kindle is a pile-o-shite that can't die soon enough.

    11. Re:Saving or just another Lock In by icebike · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So after stating that they are not comparable, you proceed to compare them??

      You make far too much of mere temporal technical issues. Display technology, battery run time, and form factors change all the time. The netbook does so much more than a kindle.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    12. Re:Saving or just another Lock In by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I stop smashing windows, what will happen to all the glaziers in town? It'll ruin the economy!

    13. Re:Saving or just another Lock In by FooAtWFU · · Score: 1

      What happened to the 80 billion worth of printers, loggers, paper mills, transport, and fish-wrappers?

      That's the savings! Stuff you no longer have to do! What, is there some moral imperative to waste as much effort and resources doing something as possible these days? You don't help the economy by hanging on to the past.

      Granted, the claims that they actually will save that much are somewhat specious, but still!

      --
      The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
    14. Re:Saving or just another Lock In by nickspoon · · Score: 1

      Very good points - also, how do you "loan" a kindle book to a buddy that stopped by? You can't!

      Well, you can - by lending them your Kindle. It's analogous to gluing all your books to your bookshelf (but not quite so impractical).

    15. Re:Saving or just another Lock In by eepok · · Score: 1

      It's far from a moral duty, but it's an economic necessity of survival to consider how "cutting costs" can affect your own bottom line but one year from now.

      Immediate case in point: How much money has been "saved" by various American megacorps with massive lay-offs? Supposedly, quite a lot. But who's going to buy the products these megacorps create when the consumers are out of work?

      And this is where technology begins to have severely diminishing returns in a capitalist society. If cars and food and books and clothes were 100% made by machines, who would be able to afford any of them?

      And regarding your Ford retort: the blacksmiths went on to work with metal, still. Just in a factory.

    16. Re:Saving or just another Lock In by Jherek+Carnelian · · Score: 1

      Sounds like the broken window fallacy to me.

    17. Re:Saving or just another Lock In by homer_s · · Score: 1

      This is especially so when your claim to saving was "saving the WORLD 80 billion). Are those displaced not also in the WORLD?

      Every job has an opportunity cost - instead of programming, I could be doing something else.
      The fact I'm programming and not doing, say auto-repair, is because, with my skills/experience/etc, this is where I'm most productive. Now, if amazon comes up with a Kindle that does programming for $1, then I should be doing auto repair.

      If your argument is correct, you should be seeing a lot of telephone operators and accountants 'displaced' because of PBXs and Quickbooks - unless you are Robert Reich, you'll agree that PBXs and Quickbooks have increased the wealth of society.

      Btw, the fallacy you're committing is called the 'Zero Sum fallacy' - look it up sometime.

    18. Re:Saving or just another Lock In by Abcd1234 · · Score: 0

      Netbooks is where mass media is going. And once you have a netbook, who needs a Kindle.

      You've *gotta* be joking. Netbooks and dedicated ebook readers have *completely* different usability requirements. The former needs a decent keyboard, a backlit display with fast refresh, etc, etc. The latter first and foremost needs to be small, light, and portable, with a decent battery life. I mean, who the hell would want to sit in bed with a fucking netbook propped open on their chest?

      Sorry bub. You're either completely insane, or totally out of touch. Probably a bit of both.

    19. Re:Saving or just another Lock In by Colonel+Korn · · Score: 1

      What happened to the 80 billion worth of printers, loggers, paper mills, transport, and fish-wrappers? Did they all go on Welfare so we can ship their jobs overseas to the Kindle manufacturing countries?

      This is just the broken window fallacy, spending money on waste is still waste even if it supports other industries. If the NY Times distributed their paper 100% on the kindle today would you suggest that they move to print to save the economy?

      Netbooks is where mass media is going. And once you have a netbook, who needs a Kindle.quote>

      Personally, I would much, much rather have a device like a kindle for media. The screen is much easier on the eyes, free connectivity through the cell networks, better battery life, smaller, etc etc. Of course, I'm not everyone, so that's just my 2 cents.

      Wrong. He's specifically concerned with WHERE the money will go. If you draw your box around Earth, yes, it's the BWF. If you draw it around the United States, as the GP did, it's actual loss.

      --
      "I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
    20. Re:Saving or just another Lock In by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      Very good points - also, how do you "loan" a kindle book to a buddy that stopped by? You can't!

      Actually, you can, sort of. You can connect your kindle account with your friend, at which point both of your libraries are available to each other. But, yeah, it ain't perfect. And, IMHO, the price for an e-book is still way out of whack (if I can buy a paper copy cheaper, I won't bother with the ebook. *shrug*)

    21. Re:Saving or just another Lock In by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, Henry Ford was a bad person because he was a rampant anti-semite and the father of planned obsolescence!

    22. Re:Saving or just another Lock In by moosesocks · · Score: 1

      News print is a renewable resource. Is the Plastic in Kindle?

      Yes. Bioplastics have existed for a few years, and are virtually indistinguishable from petroleum-based plastics. I'm not sure that the plastics in the kindle use these materials, although they certainly could be swapped out.

      They do cost a bit more to manufacture, but terribly much, considering that plastic is already cheap as dirt.

      --
      -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
    23. Re:Saving or just another Lock In by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      or do you mean SIX devices your allowed to register?

      Netbooks will never hold against a kindle if you owned one you would know... a netbook would need to really be a netbook-tablet and have an e-ink display before you can even start to make comparisons.

    24. Re:Saving or just another Lock In by linzeal · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but I have never had the need to combine the device I read textbooks, research papers and novels on with the one I surf the web with. When I am using a set of textbooks on an engineering problem I have needed to go outside my Sony Ebook reader's 8000 volume library maybe a handful of times. It may be different for programmers who like to code in one window and search for algorithms in another but as a mechanical and electrical engineering student I personally have no need for web access.

    25. Re:Saving or just another Lock In by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > The netbook does so much more than a kindle.

      but that is the inherent flaw in your thinking. those of us whom want a device to use to READ a book are not looking for the "features" of your netbook.

      the kindle does what it was designed to do, be a good ebook, thats it.

      its not trying to be your super cellphone/laptop/netbook/gameboy replacement.

    26. Re:Saving or just another Lock In by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "How much money has been "saved" by various American megacorps with massive lay-offs? "

      It seems to me there's a vast difference between the money that a corporations considers to save for itself, vs the value gained/saved by society as a whole via technological advances.

      "If cars and food and books and clothes were 100% made by machines, who would be able to afford any of them?"

      If there was neither scarcity of labour (e.g. availability of machines) nor scarcity of materials, then everyone would be able to afford them, as they'd be free.

      It's best if we use materials and human labour in the places where it's actually needed, rather than waste them just so that people feel useful.

      If the paper mills, etc, are doing something actually useful, then they'll find work. If they're doing something useless then it's best if they don't do it all, so that future generations will actually have more materials to work with.

      Once technology transforms something once useful to something currently useless, then the now useless industries must adapt or collapse or remain as parasites of society.

    27. Re:Saving or just another Lock In by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Except it's harder to hold, a strain on the eyes, heavy, and it can't be read comfortably.

      The kindle is where we are going. Light, easy to read, low energy device.
      Once we have color eInk, you will be able to do any basic office work from a kindle, more comfortably then a new book.

      Have you even used a Kindle?

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    28. Re:Saving or just another Lock In by rolfwind · · Score: 1

      What happened to the 80 billion worth of printers, loggers, paper mills, transport, and fish-wrappers? Did they all go on Welfare so we can ship their jobs overseas to the Kindle manufacturing countries?

      A good economy seeks the most economical solutions to their problems. Otherwise, they have unnecessary "drag", costs. Decreasing drag will raise standard of living as people can live cheaper for the same standard of living.

      News print is a renewable resource. Is the Plastic in Kindle?

      Is the gasoline delivering those newspapers and paper book a renewable resource?

      You can look around the ads (or read them as you see fit) in newsprint. Will you be able to do that on the Kindle when corporate sponsors for media grab control of the device and make you stare at an advertisement for 6 seconds prior to viewing the content of a story?

      Avoid those newspapers that doo that then. Just like I now avoid magazines that have a really interesting front page story, but avoid to mention where it is in the magazine, making me hunt the entire thing, including seeing their ads.

      Also, you are under impression there is only the kindle when there are many companies making ereaders. I like iRex, they support open source, although the products themselves feel between the prototype and finished stage, imnsho.

      Kindle might be great for books, but remember, its principal reason for being is to enforce DRM, to keep the book you bought on ONE device, to prevent sharing, or even transfer.

      I hear you. I hate DRM. I'm glad apple got rid of theirs. I read a lot of non-drmed computer books though, that I downloaded from their official websites, and like to read on an e-ink reader instead of a computer screen.

      Netbooks is where mass media is going. And once you have a netbook, who needs a Kindle.

      Either you don't appreciate or know what e-ink is, I do. I hate computer screens for extended reading.

    29. Re:Saving or just another Lock In by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >And once you have a netbook, who needs a Kindle.

      Anyone who actually enjoys reading. Having read on both, the Kindle is FAR superior to any netbook for reading ease and comfort.

  14. DRM for books :( by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    They've already tried to put DRM on these things, what makes you think they'll stop? This is just another attempt at turning book ownership into the same thing music ownership has become :(

    1. Re:DRM for books :( by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1

      They've already tried to put DRM on these things, what makes you think they'll stop? This is just another attempt at turning book ownership into the same thing music ownership has become :(

      While I don't disagree with the point you're trying to make, using "music ownership" as an analog weakens your argument. The music labels have all pretty much given up on DRM, so there's really nothing blocking you from legitimately sharing your music with friends and family.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    2. Re:DRM for books :( by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First thing: who said DRM concept itself is evil? Ultimatelly it's designed to replicate real world in our digital worlds, thus making copying impossible - when you want to lend a book, you naturally get rid of it yourself, which in digital scenario should be taken care of by DRMs.

      Of course there still are big and scary corporations forbidding users to lend each other books, thus making more money - which is a highly likely course publishers are going to take.

      All in all - it's DRM's implementation that you should hate, idea itself is worth considering as a concept more or less "natural".

  15. hrmmm by jollyreaper · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I've not yet had a chance to check one of these out. As I understand it, the look and feel of reading the eink display is just like reading bright white paper fresh from the laser printer. I've never had problems reading text on computer screens for long stretches but many people say it causes eye strain for them.

    I'm curious as to how this technology scales. It boggles the mind to think it took that much time and money to develop but now that they have it, how cheap can they make it? Could they get the readers down to a more reasonable cost? And what about the books? I have no problem paying a buck or two for a rental like getting a movie out of a DVD kiosk -- I only have the dvd for a limited time, would have to pay again if I wanted it later, and have nothing to physically show for it. I feel more possessive when talking about books, especially books with DRM. DRM, unless you hack it, means your purchase is as impermanent as a rental and renting a book for $9.99 is a pretty damn expensive proposition.

    This also brings us back to the issue of resale. There are so many books available on Amazon for what essentially boils down to shipping and handling. I can find even recent books for 75% off the cover price. If physical books are no longer printed or printed in far smaller runs, this means that the secondary market collapses. I can't borrow a book from a friend after they read it. I can't sell the book to a bookstore when I'm done. If my friend wants a copy, he's paying $9.99 the same as I did.

    I don't know how this is all going to shake down but it'll certainly be an interesting fight.

    --
    Kwisatz Haderach
    Sell the spice to CHOAM
    This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    1. Re:hrmmm by timeOday · · Score: 2, Informative

      If physical books are no longer printed or printed in far smaller runs, this means that the secondary market collapses.

      As a fellow book cheapskate I agree that is a little frightening. Hopefully the efficiency of electronic delivery, combined with the market forces of supply and demand, will force e-publishers to lower their prices after a book is a few months old. (Though I realize this has been a long-running issue with iTunes with many objecting to graduated pricing.)

      If nothing else, look at it this way, somebody will build a lego Mindstorms robot to turn the pages on Kindle so you can scan it in and upload it to bittorrent without even cutting the spine off, take that DRM :) PS if you want me to implement this cool hack please gift me a new Kindle 2, I want one.

    2. Re:hrmmm by manekineko2 · · Score: 1

      I've not yet had a chance to check one of these out. As I understand it, the look and feel of reading the eink display is just like reading bright white paper fresh from the laser printer. I've never had problems reading text on computer screens for long stretches but many people say it causes eye strain for them.

      I'm curious as to how this technology scales. It boggles the mind to think it took that much time and money to develop but now that they have it, how cheap can they make it? Could they get the readers down to a more reasonable cost?

      It's really more similar to newsprint than to a bright white paper fresh from the laser print. Black on grey versus black on white. Which is fine from a readability standpoint, but could be prettier.

      In terms of cost, I'm sure it can get even cheaper, but there are already cheaper alternatives to the Kindle, which comes bundled with lifetime wireless cell data service already paid for. For example, this is similar but more than a $100 cheaper:
      ESlick

    3. Re:hrmmm by jmorris42 · · Score: 1

      > I've not yet had a chance to check one of these out. As I understand it, the look and feel of
      > reading the eink display is just like reading bright white paper fresh from the laser printer.

      I haven't actually seen a Kindle in the wild but the Kindle 1 used the same display as the Sony ebook product and I did look at one of those. Maybe the Kindle 2 is a lot better but probably just a incremental improvement. Anyway, the Sony I looked at was more like reading a good 24pin dot matrix printer on low quality newsprint. And the updates times were horrid. If that sort of retro computing turns your crank then epaper is for you, otherwise wait for it to rev a few more times. Like everything else tech it will either get good eventually or something even better will supplant it.

      > Could they get the readers down to a more reasonable cost?

      They will. Amazon probably won't because their business model requires they hide the cellular network charges in an upfront lumpsum payment instead of a monthly fee. A pure ebook reader sans the cell phone will eventually be a $50 disposable toy, especially if they keep the DRM alive because everytime you toss the reader ya get to buy all new books! But DRM on books won't fly longterm any better than it has for music.

      --
      Democrat delenda est
    4. Re:hrmmm by zenyu · · Score: 4, Informative

      I've not held one nor seen one update the screen, so I can't speak to those attributes. But I have seen the screen and it is nothing like black text on bright white paper. It's like black text on drab gray paper, it's too low contrast to have any appeal over a printed book. If the reader was priced at $9.99, and a had large selection of $1-$2 books were available (pot-boilers and other commuter fare), I think it would take over the world in short order, but it's just not nearly as user friendly for most people as a book. For blind people and those with the kinds of motor function impairments that make holding a book or turning the pages difficult or impossible it is probably a great improvement, so I wouldn't say it will have no market after the fad fades. And it is of course possible that the display quality and price will improve greatly in the next year or two.

    5. Re:hrmmm by RexDevious · · Score: 1

      The DRM issue was already solved by Peanut Press (now Fictionwise) a decade ago, and quite elegantly. The data is encrypted for 2 keys, your full name, and your credit card number. You're more than welcome to share your books with whomever you want... but you'll have to give them your name and credit card number to do it. In other words, you can give your book to your close friend, but would not give it to PirateBay.

      The other issue they worked out elegantly was to pair each new book sale with a new reader, which was updated roughly every month. What's that do? Well, no encryption scheme is fool proof of course - so by the time some one cracks the encryption on a book - it would have wound up in the 75% off bin anyway.

      Reselling the books is something that could be arranged using this infrastructure if there was sufficient demand.

      Lastly, they compiled the reader for smart phones. Which, unlike an electronic device that can't fit into your pocket... fits into your pocket. So you always have your library with you because it rides along with your phone.

      Steve Jobs made a HUGE mistake not supporting eBooks. "People don't read". Really Steve? Did you forget what Amazon started out selling? But Fictionwise's EReader app is one of the most popular on the iTunes store, and it's free. So Apple makes no money on e-Books because they don't sell the content for the app on the iTunes store.

      As for the Electronic Paper - yes, it's better for people who still remember reading off of paper. But reading off of paper is quickly becoming the exception to the rule (at least for people who can afford ebooks). Schools have computers, and with newpapers being free on the Web, people are going to become much more comfortable reading off an electronic screen than they are now.

      And even if there's a significant portion of people who don't, well, how often has superior quality (E Paper) beat out a combination of convenience (pocket size) and price(you already own a phone)? I suspect the Kindle 2 will make loads of money, but not become the "iPod of Books" because it's no more portable than "portable" CD players were. But perhaps eInk will find it's way on a smart phone before long.

    6. Re:hrmmm by EricWright · · Score: 4, Interesting

      My wife's Kindle showed up yesterday. I was blown away by the display. At one time, it looks like a fake image plastered on top of the case AND like an actual printed page. Watching it redraw the screen is the only time you realize that this isn't a static picture. There's absolutely no flicker in the foreground or background.

      She read hers for a couple of hours last night and only put it down when she nearly fell asleep. I think it's easier on the eyes than any other electronic device I've seen.

      As to the price tags, yes, new books are typically $9.99, but they have a large back catalog. My wife found several short stories for $0.45 each, and some other, older novels in the $4-5 range.

      [disclaimer]I'm not an Amazon fanboy...[/disclaimer]

    7. Re:hrmmm by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      As I understand it, the look and feel of reading the eink display is just like reading bright white paper fresh from the laser printer.

      It's not. For one thing, the contrast is still nowhere near close (though much better than earlier eInk screens) - the text is dark enough, but the background still looks slightly grayish. For another, all those readers with 600x800 screens (this includes both Kindles and Sony) have 160 DPI resolution, which is definitely not matching a laser printer in quality - we'd need at least 300 DPI for that.

      In practice, it's good enough, though the fonts need to be larger than in paper book of the same size for comfortable printing (because of that low DPI). If you read a lot of non-technical literature, it's probably worth buying today. If not, wait 2-3 more years for the next-gen screens to come to production.

    8. Re:hrmmm by dedazo · · Score: 1

      [disclaimer]I'm not an Amazon fanboy...[/disclaimer]

      I'm not either, but I completely agree. I saw one a few days ago and it's really amazing. Much better than I expected, and I never even used the previous model. I was kind of jaded after all the hype but I have to say I was very impressed. The DRM might be another issue, but the device is really good. I guess it's a bit like the iPod or iPhone. Amazing devices, crappy service and draconian app store policies, DRM, etc. Yet people use them.

      --
      Web2.0: I love when people Flickr my cuil and digg my boingboing until my google is reddit and I start to yahoo
    9. Re:hrmmm by QuoteMstr · · Score: 1

      your full name, and your credit card number

      Sounds like a perfect application for one-off credit card numbers.

    10. Re:hrmmm by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      At one time, it looks like a fake image plastered on top of the case AND like an actual printed page. Watching it redraw the screen is the only time you realize that this isn't a static picture. There's absolutely no flicker in the foreground or background.

      There's no flicker because, until you request to redraw it, it is a static picture - tiny particles of solid black and white material positioned as needed.

    11. Re:hrmmm by RexDevious · · Score: 1

      Better yet is to figure out how to break the encryption and strip the DRM, as DarkReverser has done.

      The point is not to prevent piracy, because that simply can't be done. The point is to prevent *casual* piracy - ala mp3 files. Getting a one-off credit card, and purchasing hundreds of expense books with it so that you can share them on p2p networks along with the name and number you used... well, that doesn't sound terribly casual to me. Frankly, it's faster to just install python, grab pdb2html, and strip the info out entirely. Which isn't being done, 'cause it's still more work than shelling out five or ten bucks for a book apparently.

      Now for those really, really expensive books(>$300) - hell yeah! But from what I've seen, some patient soul will just use the analog hole before someone obtains a one off credit card name and number that can be traced back to them and puts that up on p2p networks.

      Speaking of really freakin' expensive books - the one area where the much-harder-to-crack Kindle could be both netbooks and smart phones, is those text books where you need to see a diagram (larger than an iphone screen) to learn it. It should be netbooks because publishers of those books are only going to release a few to the Kindle, and then wait to see if they get pirated. If they do, that's it, game over. You'll have to get those books as PDFs from someone with the patience to scan the whole thing. Or Xerox it, and then make copies of that which is easier - like we used to do when I was at University. Hmm... I wonder if that's why they kept coming out with new editions of those each year - to kill both the used-books and xeroxed sources from lowering their sales?

    12. Re:hrmmm by afabbro · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and the cool thing is that all of the technical documents and papers I have saved as .pdfs can be easily uploaded to it and displayed cause otherwise it'd be a useless...

      Oh wait. Never mind.

      --
      Advice: on VPS providers
  16. Tech Support anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So when one of your Subscribers drops their Kindle, replacing it and 4 hours of tech support is still cheaper than paper?

    Ya ok, look into the rest of the tech industry and see what quality tech support is costing us right now please.

  17. Future in e-bboks. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    There is a fear in the publishing industry that authors could cut them out and sell directly to the readers. E-books should not be price above the cost of a paperback. I would pay $5.00 for a fiction e-book and 1 or 2 dollars for a short story.

    Profit is almost $5.00 per reader for the author as opposed to $0.80 on a $7.99 paperback.

    Textbooks and technical books could still charge about $10 or $20 a book

    1.) Write a book
    2.) Convert it to PDF
    3.) ???
    4.) Profit

    1. Re:Future in e-bboks. by chromatic · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There is a fear in the publishing industry that authors could cut them out and sell directly to the readers.

      Good. Publishers have been cheating authors for years.

  18. advertising by snsh · · Score: 1

    I read news at NYTimes.com - in color - from a laptop for free, and with Adblockplus I don't have to wade through full-page ads for The Hottest Movie of the Year. So how is e-Ink supposed to save the NY Times money again?

    1. Re:advertising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, your laptop is kind of cool for reading newspapers, but only for an hour or so at a time unless you're at a desk where you can plug it in (at which point it's pointless to make the distinction of it being a "laptop"). And if you want to do it outside you've got to hunt around for a place with enough shade so you can actually see the screen. eInk allows for thousands of page refreshes on a single charge and doesn't suffer from backlight-driven dispaly problems. This alone makes it more attractive to people who do not already prefer to do their reading in front of a computer. When you can comfortably sprawl in an easy chair with your "laptop" maybe you'll have an edge. Good luck with the burns on your sack.

    2. Re:advertising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      By allowing them to cut off leeches like you?

    3. Re:advertising by dave420 · · Score: 1

      True - people not cheaping out and using ad blockers on sites they actually want to browse would save them more money. Downloading MP3s isn't stealing - using an adblocker most definitely is. Man up and take the rough with the smooth, otherwise all those sites you want to visit but not pay for will disappear.

  19. content is still too pricey by peter303 · · Score: 1

    The winner of the "ebook" competition is going to have to emulate Apples iTune "dollar-store" pricing. Thats when people decide the convenience trumps free. I get most of my reading material free online or libraries now. I can see where Kindle is more convenient, but not willing to pay the high content prices yet.

  20. HAHAHA!!! by hellfire · · Score: 0, Troll

    Now that the Kindle 2 is finally getting readers to take e-books seriously

    *snort* I'm sorry, who's taking the kindle 2 and ebooks seriously? *snicker*

    --

    "All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"

  21. Don't want one by Adrian+Lopez · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Sorry, but as cool as I think the concept of e-Ink really is, I can't get past the fact that native Kindle books are tied to your Amazon account. The Kindle represents an attack on the first sale doctrine, and I refuse to support it to the tune of $400 plus the price of crippled books.

    --
    "In prison you just have to shut your eyes and take it. Here you have to shut your eyes and give it."
    1. Re:Don't want one by mweather · · Score: 1

      So don't buy native Kindle books.

    2. Re:Don't want one by Sabathius · · Score: 1

      Amen. I couldn't have said it better myself. I think we have yet to see the killer app for eInk.

      Personally, I think that the first netbook manufacturer to put an eInk display on the top cover of one of its models (that you can send text, etc. to) will win all the prizes. With Wimax...and using Skype for VoIP calls...you have the perfect device.

    3. Re:Don't want one by internic · · Score: 1

      Is there a viable source for electronic copies of books (i.e., one that has a significant library beyond the contents of project Gutenberg? If I thought I could get non-DRMed electronic versions of most books I'm interested in, I'd buy an ebook reader fast, but for right now it looks like that's not an option. Suffice it to say that I'm not eager to pay $10 a piece for ebooks I can only use with hardware from one vendor.

      --
      "You call it a new way of thinking; I call it regression to ignorance!" -- Operation Ivy
    4. Re:Don't want one by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Pay 8 bucks for a book, then download it.
      Use that.

      When you think about it, 10 bucks isn't that bad,
      New paperbacks cost 7.95+, hard bounds cost 20.00+

      SO the cost sn't an issue. ONLY being able to sue it with an amazon account on this reader, is bad.

      For that price.
      Would first sale be that important if a book was a buck?

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    5. Re:Don't want one by maxume · · Score: 1

      I like the Kindle form factor better for reading (I think, I don't have a netbook or a Kindle). It supports unencumbered mobi books, so there isn't any need to play along with DRM books (well, except for availability). I suppose there is the whole "It's tainted because it makes DRM possible" argument, but I don't care about that.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    6. Re:Don't want one by Adrian+Lopez · · Score: 1

      Would first sale be that important if a book was a buck?

      Yes. If I want a friend to read it but the book is no longer available, DRM would prevent me from simply giving him my copy.

      --
      "In prison you just have to shut your eyes and take it. Here you have to shut your eyes and give it."
    7. Re:Don't want one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But don't the 2nd generation kindles support PDFs and txt?

    8. Re:Don't want one by Killjoy_NL · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Check out www.scribd.com then :)

      --
      This is the sig that says NI (again)
    9. Re:Don't want one by bledwhite · · Score: 1

      Just swap kindles?

    10. Re:Don't want one by sshir · · Score: 1

      "native Kindle books" are not tied to the Amazon account.
      Kindle's native format is Mobipocket. There are free converters from pdf, html, word. Simply convert, connect Kindle to your computer via usb and upload.

      What people seems don't understand is that kindle and kindle like devices are mp3 players for books. And there are not only free classic books out there in the internet. If you know where to look you can find pretty much any book (e.g. pirated Potter books appear about 10 hours after release).

      So Kindle is not an "attack on the first sale doctrine" but attack on the whole publishers racket.

      And yes, I have Kindle 2. And I love it!

  22. Daily Show appearance by AlpineR · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Jeff Bezos also appeared on The Daily Show with Jon Stewart a couple days ago. Jon gave him a hard time about how you have to pay $359 just for the device and another $10 per book (some of which are DRM'ed). Mr. Bezos didn't have a good response.

    What I think he should have pointed out is that The Daily Show interviews many authors and it would really be nice to hear about a new book, download it, and start reading it in minutes rather than wait a few days for it to arrive in the mail.

    1. Re:Daily Show appearance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      it would really be nice to hear about a new book, download it, and start reading it in minutes rather than wait a few days for it to arrive in the mail.

      Yeah! Fuck you, patience.

    2. Re:Daily Show appearance by sdavid · · Score: 1

      I saw that, and I thought that that Bezos should have made the obvious comparison to the iPod. The only reason to buy a Kindle is because it gives you access to material in a way that you would not have had otherwise, and that's exactly what an mp3 player does by giving you access to your music library anywhere. A Kindle could potentially have the same kind of advantage. For myself, I still listen to CDs and still read the newspaper, so what do I know?

    3. Re:Daily Show appearance by stewbee · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I saw the episode also. I think Jeff's answer was as good as he could give. He was upfront about the fact that it was up to the publishers about their chosen DRM policies. I would rather him have been upfront and honest about this than to deflect the answer. Honesty like this is refreshing. He was not trying to hide anything.

      Additionally, from interviews that I see on the Daily Show, John Stewart can sometimes be a bit overbearing so being able to get some of the points you would like to as the interviewee may not happen. Additionally, it is after all a comedy show, so John will always take the chance to crack jokes. (Jokes he probably should have avoided, because Jeff's laugh was kind of scary). I think it would have been neat if he could have demoed the unit a bit more too, but all in all, I thought the interview was pretty good.

    4. Re:Daily Show appearance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But you can read it with one hand!

    5. Re:Daily Show appearance by DrgnDancer · · Score: 1

      I'm not expert on the Kindle or e-books, but it seems to me that if Amazon wants $10 a book, then this is a very different situation from digital music players. With a digital music player I can get music one of two ways. I can either purchase a traditional media format of the music, a CD, then rip the music into a file format that my device accepts; or I can pay for the music on a digital store (Ala iTunes), and download it directly in a player accepted format. In either case I am paying the same amount or possibly less for the music. I paid for my player separately, it's true, but I'm not expected to get all of my content from a store that charges more that a traditional CD would cost me. With the Kindle the ONLY source for content is Amazon. I can't buy a book from B&N and get the right to ALSO have a digital copy, and I can't (trivially or non-destructively) digitize the book myself. The available online store also (apparently, I'm just basing this on the article) charges me more than a paperback version of the book would cost. When I buy an album from iTunes it costs me less than the same thing would cost me on CD, not more. Plus I can put the tracks I bought on a CD if I chose (I'll get some compression loss perhaps, but it'll be usable at least).

      Digital music, especially now that DRM is waning on it, generally provides me with MORE options than I had before. Digital books, at least as the technology stands now, seems to provide me with FEWER options. At a higher cost, plus the cost of the reader. The portability and storage capabilities are nice, and for books that are not available as trade paperbacks a $10 cost might be a deal, but in general it doesn't seem like the Kindle is economical yet.

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    6. Re:Daily Show appearance by linzeal · · Score: 1

      It is not that hard to scan a book into PDF format with OCR software and Adobe Acrobat. It is even cheaper to use Piratebay for your books.

    7. Re:Daily Show appearance by Arterion · · Score: 1

      Err... what? You pay your $10 and get a paperback. I guess you can pay $10 for the score of a song that you can also buy an MP3 of, but you still won't be able to listen to it.

      The analogy between text and audio is broken, because audio requires some sort of device to convert information of some sort, usually digital these days, into sound waves. You don't need that with books. Light does that for you.

      --
      "That which does not kill us makes us stranger." -Trevor Goodchild
    8. Re:Daily Show appearance by maxume · · Score: 1

      Bezos laughs a lot in every interview he does. I guarantee he will yuck it up on Rose.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    9. Re:Daily Show appearance by DrgnDancer · · Score: 1

      I was looking at legal means, because even if you want to make the argument that Pirate bay is OK for movies and music because of obscene industry profits, I'd like to make my favorite authors a few bucks. Very few of them are rich, and publishing companies aren't exactly rolling in money either most of the time. As to scanning a book to PDF, how do you recommend I do this without either a) spending hours scanning one page at a time, or b) tearing all the pages out and running them trough a document feeder? Please note that I said their was no way to "easily or non-destructively" get a book into digital format, not that there was no way at all. I put a CD in, run some software and ten minutes later I have MP3s and a usable CD. Doing the equivalent with a book will either take me long boring hours, or destroy my book.

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    10. Re:Daily Show appearance by linzeal · · Score: 1

      Well if you own the book look for a copy on piratebay because honestly it took me 8 hours to roughly do 2 rare out of print 400 page books. Don't reinvent the wheel. I shared the two books for a day or so and had at one point people in a dozen different countries downloading just those two books. Who knows, depending on your library, if you take the time to scan something in and share it you could make a real difference to a lot of people who would have no ability to get that information otherwise. I am still trying to get these for instance and would really appreciate someone sharing them, I don't think Oppenheimer would mind.

  23. Smoking crack. by d-r0ck · · Score: 1

    Wake me up when it costs the same as a newspaper or print book. Look at how people read newspapers. They have coffee, read the paper, and then drop it for the next guy.

  24. Stupid=Kindle, Stupider=2 by hackus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    We already have something far better than a Kindle.

    It is called a Netbook with a web browser.

    Not only that, my browser is totally open and I do not have to buy a $354 unit again when I want to read my books, or print them out. My books do not magically evaporate because I did not pay a license fee to read them on some crappy black and white device.

    Kindle. It bites.

    Kindle 2! It bites more!

    Stupid idea.

    Dumb.

    Oh, and the web has ALREADY saved far more trees than you can possibly imagine. Way before the Kindle got here, newspapers were starting to go out of business, computer manufacturers were delivering documentation on CD in PDF form.

    Way too much hype around this stupid device.

    -Hack

    --
    Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
    1. Re:Stupid=Kindle, Stupider=2 by fataugie · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, I don't think you went far enough.

      Kindle2 == Steak knife (good at one thing)

      Netbook == Swiss Army Knife (pretty good at a BUNCH of things)

      Kindle2 price is equivilent to a Netbook

      For me, the netbook makes more sense for the money.
      If the Kindle was $50, then fine.
      But it's too much for a single purpose item of that sort.

      --

      WTF? Over?

    2. Re:Stupid=Kindle, Stupider=2 by merreborn · · Score: 3, Insightful

      We already have something far better than a Kindle.

      It is called a Netbook with a web browser.

      Netbooks have a fraction of the battery life, are heavier, are bigger, and are harder to read for long periods of time.

      Try to spend 12 hours on the beach reading from a netbook, and from a Kindle. You'll see the difference.

    3. Re:Stupid=Kindle, Stupider=2 by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      Okay, here's the idea: reading on an LCD screen causes headaches. E-Ink fixes that problem. Except that it lacks colors (8 shades of grey if I recall) and the refresh rate is too low to be used as a computer screen.

      We're already seeing companies build secondary displays on their laptops. But they're using smaller displays, still LCD, etc.

      Here's the idea: make a regular laptop with an LCD display inside as usual, and make the top/cover an E-Ink display. Not only does it makes sense when using your laptop as a newspaper reader (keep laptop closed, use laptop as tablet) but you can also put your own grayscale wallpaper/designs on the cover when not using the E-Ink display as a screen.

    4. Re:Stupid=Kindle, Stupider=2 by smcdow · · Score: 1

      It is called a Netbook with a web browser.

      Great. Another gadget with a suck-ass backlit LCD display.

      Has there ever been a backlit LCD display that didn't absolutely suck?

      No? I didn't think so.

      Hooray epaper!

      --
      In the course of every project, it will become necessary to shoot the scientists and begin production.
    5. Re:Stupid=Kindle, Stupider=2 by geekoid · · Score: 1

      well, that's your opinion.
      Except as a reader, it is FAR superiour to Netbook.

      It offer features still not properly integrated into any browser.

      Plus it's very light. A woman at work has one, and it is very nice.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    6. Re:Stupid=Kindle, Stupider=2 by Thaelon · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You somehow forgot to mention that it requires a freaking booklight to read in the dark.

      The most absurd facet of the thing if you ask me.

      I still prefer my Nokia N810 device with software ebook reader FBReader. I can set the display to red text on a black background and reap the following benefits:

      • I can read in the dark
      • I can read in the dark in bed without keeping my girlfriend awake.
      • I can read in the dark without hosing my night vision due to the red text.*

      For a $360 device that uses electronic paper I'm flabbergasted that you still need to buy a freaking book light for it.

      *Note: Prior to learning to use red on black (still using white on black text) I noticed that after I turned the reader off and laid down to sleep that I could still see an afterimage of a bunch of little lines organized in a rectangle with my eyes closed. This problem evaporated with red on black.

      --

      Question everything

    7. Re:Stupid=Kindle, Stupider=2 by bastion_xx · · Score: 1

      Depending upon your needs, a netbook may be a better device for reading. Not mine. I wanted a device where I can read in any conditions I'd regularly read, which could be in bed, at the pool, on the deck, on the couch, in a car, etc.

      And for the same amount of time I'd read a paper book, which can be 2-6 hours at a stretch.

      I'm guessing you haven't spent time with eInk outside of a store. There is no LCD display technology that adjusts as well as the Kindle (or Sony, other others based on the same eInk screens). Well except in dark conditions, but normally don't read in the dark.

      People have different tastes. I can't see how people read books on Palms or iPhones, but they do.

      Maybe I've just adopted well the Kindle over the past 14 months I've had it. Granted I've only read 60-70 books, the WSJ, and Salon on it, ut it works well for me.

    8. Re:Stupid=Kindle, Stupider=2 by d4nowar · · Score: 0

      Do that and you'll surely look like a lobster after!

    9. Re:Stupid=Kindle, Stupider=2 by Colonel+Korn · · Score: 1

      Actually, I don't think you went far enough.

      Kindle2 == Steak knife (good at one thing)

      Netbook == Swiss Army Knife (pretty good at a BUNCH of things)

      Kindle2 price is equivilent to a Netbook

      For me, the netbook makes more sense for the money.
      If the Kindle was $50, then fine.
      But it's too much for a single purpose item of that sort.

      Right on. You know, a netbook can also play music. An ipod can play music, but not do all the stuff a netbook can. I'll throw my ipod into the sea and carry my netbook around when I want to listen to music! Take that, Steve Jobs!

      --
      "I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
    10. Re:Stupid=Kindle, Stupider=2 by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2, Informative

      You somehow forgot to mention that it requires a freaking booklight to read in the dark.

      Yeah, that's because it doesn't shine a powerful backlight right into your eyes - which is not good for the eyes in general, and particularly so if you do that in darkness.

      Seriously, do not stare into bright screens when the environment is dark (such as reading from a lit screen at night in a room with no lights). No color combination will solve this problem, though some are better than others (as you say yourself). If you care about your vision, then keep in mind that the only right way to read is with a proper external light source, correctly positioned - such as, yeah, a book light :)

      By the way, the thing doesn't have its own backlight because of the nature of "e-paper"/eInk screens - they are reflective, not transparent. Both white and black pixels on those are particles of solid matter. It makes it impossible to do proper backlight, but it is also what gives them the "paper look" and that long battery life (because once all the particles are set appropriately, they persist without need to apply any energy).

    11. Re:Stupid=Kindle, Stupider=2 by Bearhouse · · Score: 1

      I can read in the dark in bed without keeping my girlfriend awake.

      Sir, you are a true geek. We salute you.

    12. Re:Stupid=Kindle, Stupider=2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's meant to emulate paper. Is not being readable in the dark a flaw you often notice when dealing with things written on paper? If you bought a $360 text book or report, would you complain that you had to read it with a light on? I'm sorry but this complaint just seems silly.

    13. Re:Stupid=Kindle, Stupider=2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The free internet on the Kindle give it an advantage over netbooks

    14. Re:Stupid=Kindle, Stupider=2 by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Actually..

      Kindle2 == Steak knife (good at one thing)

      Netbook == Swiss Army Knife that ways 8 times that of a steak knife uses more energy, and has needs to hands to wield.(pretty good at a BUNCH of things)

      The Kindle WILL be a netbook in a few years.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    15. Re:Stupid=Kindle, Stupider=2 by geekoid · · Score: 1

      or, you know, replace the iPod with a kindle.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    16. Re:Stupid=Kindle, Stupider=2 by geekoid · · Score: 1

      I can read in the dark

      then why do you need a light?

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    17. Re:Stupid=Kindle, Stupider=2 by electrosoccertux · · Score: 1

      We already have something far better than a Kindle.

      It is called a Netbook with a web browser.

      Netbooks have a fraction of the battery life, are heavier, are bigger, and are harder to read for long periods of time.

      Try to spend 12 hours on the beach reading from a netbook, and from a Kindle. You'll see the difference.

      The latest Acer netbook with a 10" color backlit display has a 9 hour battery life with wireless turned off.

    18. Re:Stupid=Kindle, Stupider=2 by merreborn · · Score: 1

      The latest Acer netbook with a 10" color backlit display has a 9 hour battery life with wireless turned off.

      That's less than 1/3 of the most conservative estimates of Kindle 3 battery life.

      The Kindle has a passive display. When you're reading a page, it draws no power. It powers up briefly when you change pages, but that's pretty much it.

    19. Re:Stupid=Kindle, Stupider=2 by adolf · · Score: 1

      *shrug*

      I've read from computer monitors in dark rooms, at length, since I was 10. I'm 29 now.

      I am very nearsighted, but so were almost all of the people in my bloodline before me (along with my siblings, who were never afflicted with a computer addiction), and my prescription hasn't changed much in over a decade. Otherwise, my vision is A-OK, though I've always been a little sensitive to bright sun or fluorescent light (even before I knew computers).

      My range of focus is good, I have good depth perception, excellent peripheral vision, excellent color perception, and so on. When I was doing textmode Linux 12 years ago, I used SVGATextMode to get tiny little fonts on the screen (something like 132x50) on a 15" CRT, and I currently shop for displays with the highest available resolution at a given size. My 15.4" laptop has a 1920x1200 display and was selected primarily based on the availability of such a high-resolution screen, and I elect even then to use fonts which most folks find to be positively inscrutable.

      I do tend to keep my monitors adjusted so that they are relatively dark. My definition of "dark" has shifted down the Lumens scale a bit in a white-background GUI world than it was in a white-on-black DOS and UNIX world, but still.

      Back on topic: I've been reading books with backlit Palm Pilots in bed for ages. I really prefer the soft, green electroluminescent backlight on my old Handspring Visor to the much fancier and higher-resolution color display on my recently-deceased Palm Zire 71, because it is darker. I think that a good, soft, even book light on a Kindle would also suit me well, if powering the thing were straight-forward and it were possible to download books from Project Gutenberg.

      I do take breaks every few minutes to focus on something else far away, to exercise the muscles in my eyes. (I also vary my posture and keyboard position a lot, in part as a conscious effort to prevent RSI, and none of the typing positions I use are "proper," on purpose.)

      Throughout my life, I've had various people swear up and down that spending such great lengths of time in front of a computer monitor would destroy my vision. The more insightful-sounding of these folks further submit that using really small print is even worse. And I'm probably long overdue for real RSI symptoms, but I don't really have any that ever last more than a few minutes (I find that driving long distances is far more stressful on my hands and wrists than using a computer ever was).

      But I just don't see any evidence, in my case, to support the notion that looking at a computer monitor in a dark room is bad for my eyes. Would you care to elaborate more on the evils of backlit displays?

    20. Re:Stupid=Kindle, Stupider=2 by electrosoccertux · · Score: 1

      So? You can watch movies, read books, surf the internet, play games, etc.
      Kindle can only do one of those four.

      It's pretty clear which is more useful. You don't have to try to convince me that I'll need 27 hours of battery life out of something I read. Netbook battery life is only going to get better, too, as Intel scales the chipset down and refines it.

      There is a very defined niche for which the Kindle would be more useful than the Netbook-- reading in sunlight. But even this is changing with new displays which allow sunlight to enter an area on the top of the laptop, to be reflected around and brighten the screen. I suppose the Kindle may be lighter, but still, the netbook is only 3lbs and I can do about 100 times as much with it.

    21. Re:Stupid=Kindle, Stupider=2 by smilesby · · Score: 1

      Actually the Kindle 2 shows 16 greyscales--but you're right, color isn't here yet.

      Plastic Logic is working on a reader as well, and reckons they'll have color e-ink on a follow-on model within three years or so.

      As for combining epaper displays with a traditional device, I hadn't heard of a laptop combo, but Polymer Vision in the Netherlands is working on a cellphone hybrid called the Readius. Very sci fi with roll out e-ink screen.

      I know epaper has been around for some time, but the first advanced, mass market devices have only been out for a couple years now, so give it a couple more years and I'm sure we'll see more advancements along these lines.

    22. Re:Stupid=Kindle, Stupider=2 by Killjoy_NL · · Score: 1

      The people who say that are idiots, your eyes might get tired, but that's it.
      Rest and you're done, if you get bad eyesight, it's not because of reading a book/monitor in the dark.

      --
      This is the sig that says NI (again)
    23. Re:Stupid=Kindle, Stupider=2 by Soul-Burn666 · · Score: 1

      Simple solution, add a built-in LED book light to the device.
      It's a LED so it is low power. It's even lower power when you consider it will only be used in a dark environment where not much light is needed. And it's off when there's enough external lighting.

      --
      ^_^
    24. Re:Stupid=Kindle, Stupider=2 by Richy_T · · Score: 1

      It can also do some of the third thing and, hence, potentially the 4th too.

    25. Re:Stupid=Kindle, Stupider=2 by electrosoccertux · · Score: 1

      Can it go to slashdot?

    26. Re:Stupid=Kindle, Stupider=2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We already have something far better than a Kindle.

      It is called a Netbook with a web browser.

      Netbooks have a fraction of the battery life, are heavier, are bigger, and are harder to read for long periods of time.

      Try to spend 12 hours on the beach reading from a netbook, and from a Kindle. You'll see the difference.

      Yeah, cause I go to the beach and read for 12 hours. That's what, 6am to 6pm? Do I get a break for lunch? What if I need to take a whiz?

      Other than that, your argument stands

    27. Re:Stupid=Kindle, Stupider=2 by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Simple solution, add a built-in LED book light to the device.
      It's a LED so it is low power. It's even lower power when you consider it will only be used in a dark environment where not much light is needed. And it's off when there's enough external lighting.

      Good; except - where are you going to put that light? Remember, those things are thin, and the screen is almost right there at the surface. There is very little space to put the LEDs into. In fact, Sony had tried - and look at how ugly the result looks. Quite an eye strainer, too - too bright at the edges, too dim in the middle, and overall very uneven. But I don't see how they could do any better.

      Now there are some third-party gadgets which attach to the book and give enough light to read properly - but those are noticeably larger, so you probably wouldn't want to have them attached to the book all the time.

    28. Re:Stupid=Kindle, Stupider=2 by Thaelon · · Score: 1

      It's not a powerful backlight. I have the brightness turned down so low it's difficult to read in day a well lit room (so I adjust it there as needed).

      I really think you should try it before you go saying it's a bad idea. It's extremely low brightness, to the point that my night vision is completely unimpaired. I can put the device down, and navigate my room, stepping over shoes & such without the slightest difficulty or time delay for vision adjustment.

      You seem to grossly underestimate how big of a difference low brightness dark red on black can be (no other colored pixels visible at all) vs. a white screen in the dark. I should take pictures actually..

      Looking into the ungodly bright blue light in my mouse from across the room for 100ms is more eye damaging than reading the on the N810 for 2 hours.

      I've used good book lights extensively as well, and not to mention lamps, the N810 is by far the best and most convenient.

      Book + booklight = ungainly, some parts are brighter than others, you have to attach it manage batteries, additional cord, weight, and the book is huge by comparison, you can't look up definitions from the book over the internet, screws your night vision, may keep your spouse awake, requires bookmarks or a good memory

      Book + lamp = good lighting, fairly convenient, but you have to orient yourself, the book, and the light so you can't roll over on whatever side you want and still get the same optimal conditions, you could keep a dictionary at hand I guess, screws your night vision, keeps your spouse awake, requires bookmarks or a good memory.

      Kindle + booklight = kinda ungainly due the clamp on booklight, uneven illumination, two different electronic devices requiring batteries or cords, additional weight, ungainly size, dictionary look up in black & white, screws your night vision, may keep your spouse awake, adjustable text size (I assume), lightweight, automatically bookmarks, lasts almost as long as the N810, but your booklight may not.

      N810 = perfect brightness since you can customize it to taste, contrast, illumination at all angles, able to look up definitions from the device using copy paste, very little light pollution of your bedroom, tiny, weighs about the same as a book, adjustable text size, automatically bookmarks, batteries last 3-7 days of 1-3 hour reading.

      --

      Question everything

    29. Re:Stupid=Kindle, Stupider=2 by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      It's not a powerful backlight. I have the brightness turned down so low it's difficult to read in day a well lit room (so I adjust it there as needed).

      I really think you should try it before you go saying it's a bad idea. It's extremely low brightness, to the point that my night vision is completely unimpaired. I can put the device down, and navigate my room, stepping over shoes & such without the slightest difficulty or time delay for vision adjustment.

      If you turn it down that much, then you're likely not getting enough light to read the text comfortably. It should be noted that eye strain is often not something that's easy to spot - you can think that you are fine, seeing the text perfectly, but by that time you may actually be straining your eyes quite a bit already. This happens quite often with paper books too, with moderately bad lighting conditions.

      Of course, the effect this has is not something that is going to manifest itself in days, or weeks - it creeps in much slower. But it is there, and, rather than discussing this here (among other things, IANAD), I recommend you to consult with your ophthalmologist, and just ask him whether reading in the conditions you describe is harmful to you or not. It may well be that, for you particularly, it isn't - but in any case, don't trust your subjective feelings; ask a specialist instead.

    30. Re:Stupid=Kindle, Stupider=2 by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      IMO the Kindle makes little sense for newspapers. You can get better mileage with the web. People are usually only interested in some stories, not all. Searching and dynamic page update are important in such an application. I think it makes sense for books though. A book is heavier, has more pages so eyestrain is a bigger problem, e-ink display starts to shine with such an application. You may think it is senseless to own specific book reading hardware, but I thought in the past it was senseless to own a standalone MP3 player when a cellphone would play MP3s as well, and look how wrong I was. Form factor and easier to use controls were a winner. In the end it depends on the whole ecosystem, and Bezos seems to be following the iPod business model to a T. I agree he has to allow people to read non DRM materials (people should be able to add and remove PDFs to a Kindle without 3rd party intervention at least, and WTF is it with buying "cheap" classics when Project Guttenberg has them for FREE?)

    31. Re:Stupid=Kindle, Stupider=2 by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      You also need to use a light with a regular book. IMO that is not enough of an obstacle. I think one reason the light isn't included is because it would drain the battery down (as well as make the device more expensive).

    32. Re:Stupid=Kindle, Stupider=2 by Soul-Burn666 · · Score: 1

      I'd assume some sort of flexible wiring, like a tube with the light at the end which you could then move above the page for a more even spread. Or maybe a bar that you can raise which houses the light.

      As much as I assume they've tested a bunch of solutions, aren't they better than completely lightless?

      --
      ^_^
    33. Re:Stupid=Kindle, Stupider=2 by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      I'd assume some sort of flexible wiring, like a tube with the light at the end which you could then move above the page for a more even spread. Or maybe a bar that you can raise which houses the light.

      The trick is to get a reasonably even distribution of light across the reading surface. When the light source is too close to the book, it's very hard to get that - the result is not all that different from reading with a flashlight, except that you don't have the well-defined edge around the light blob. In the end, I imagine that the ideal placement for such a light would be at about the same distance as your typical bedside book lamp :) but, as mentioned earlier, if you really want to use that sort of thing, there are third-party solutions.

      Still, I think that this is a dead end. Instead, I wonder if they could somehow make the material of the white eInk particles mildly fluorescent under some conditions. This would require white-on-black text for comfortable reading in the dark, and would still strain the eye eventually, but it's probably the best alternative. I believe they presently use TiO2 for white particles, for which I do not see a way to do so, but maybe there are other workable options.

      In any case, this technology is still very much in its infancy, particularly when it comes to stuff that's in production. There are some very promising prototypes already, however, with much improved refresh rates, color output, higher DPI, and non-rigid surface, and I'm sure there's heavy research in lighting as well. So I'm sure things will get much better in 3-5 years.

    34. Re:Stupid=Kindle, Stupider=2 by Thaelon · · Score: 1

      If you turn it down that much, then you're likely not getting enough light to read the text comfortably.

      When reading like that my eyes are fully adapted to night vision, so I'm getting plenty of light to read by. I spent an hour or so spread out over a few reading sessions tweaking it to perfection.

      I have no trouble reading it whatsoever. If I did, I would simply adjust the display further.

      --

      Question everything

  25. Apples to Oranges by highfidelitychris · · Score: 1

    "(Silicon Alley Insider recently calculated that the New York Times could save more than $300 million a year by shutting down its presses and buying every subscriber a Kindle)." Except the Kindle 2 doesn't do color. Also, they assume there would be no costs for distributing newspaper electronically. I'm not saying it wouldn't be cheaper, but their analysis is way off.

    1. Re:Apples to Oranges by forceman130 · · Score: 1

      "(Silicon Alley Insider recently calculated that the New York Times could save more than $300 million a year by shutting down its presses and buying every subscriber a Kindle)." Except the Kindle 2 doesn't do color. Also, they assume there would be no costs for distributing newspaper electronically. I'm not saying it wouldn't be cheaper, but their analysis is way off.

      And your analysis of their analysis is based on what? The summary posted on Slashdot?

      --
      Wow, a 7 digit ID - let that be a lesson in the perils of procrastination.
  26. E-ink must need more money by HEbGb · · Score: 1

    They've been making these kind of claims for a decade now, and have been burning through investment money like they were back in the dot-com days.

    The technology is still supremely inferior to, and far more expensive than LCD panels.

    After a hype piece like this, expect them to go back to the till.

    1. Re:E-ink must need more money by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      Yes, reading that it was more expensive than an LCD panel gave me quite a bit of pause, thinking this may end up as yet another dead end technology. Flexible surfaces may make it a keeper in the long term though.

  27. I'm glad... by yoshi_mon · · Score: 1

    As someone who has been using Plucker on my Palms for years now this thing has 'lockin' written all over it.

    As an end user gadget it looks ok. I'd have to handle one to get a feel for how much better it is over a normal PDA. However I'd be willing to bet it's not that much better. Certainly not worth being locked in, likely having your habits tracked, and whatever other type of nonsense that such a propitiatory device would have.

    --

    Really, I know what I'm doing...Ohhhh, look at the shiny buttons!
  28. Forget newspaper by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

    Computer screens? Newspapers? That's kind of a given, but not really impressive and not likely to drive prices down really fast. It's limited to "flat" screens of limited sizes, so even the R&D may slow down because of that.

    Give us color E-Ink wallpaper, E-Ink cars (where a limit of only two colors won't be much of a problem as long as we can control the "pixels" to make motifs), etc. I imagine a white car with the hood, top, hatch and doors with white/black E-Ink panels for starters, where only minimal flex is required in the panels (imagine the E-Ink panel for the front left side, too curvy to introduce a new technology in a new sector IMHO).

    1. Re:Forget newspaper by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Have it be white or black depending on the outside temperature.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:Forget newspaper by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      Great idea. It only takes energy to change the "pixels", so set your car to black in winter and white in summer.

      That's a great selling point right there.

    3. Re:Forget newspaper by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      Or to gray when the salt is on the roads.

    4. Re:Forget newspaper by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Or invisible when the police are after you.

      wait.

      Actual it would be all black or all white, but a combination basically making light to dark gray.

      hmm And one for the plates.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  29. Saving and loosing by no-body · · Score: 1

    "Saving" $300 Mio or $80 billion/year would also make other entities "loose" at least the same amount looking at all the printing industry and supporting businesses and where does that lead to?

    Is there any modeling/simulaton of necessary resources to "run" a human population in a country in a sustainable fashion and what products/services are required and how would in this context such an e-book prioritized?

    Sure ain't - it's total chaos, will lead to more chaos and that ship is gonna tank big time!

    Enjoy the trip!

    1. Re:Saving and loosing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What will the other entities loosen? Bolts? Screws? Everybody knows we already have too many loose screws running around. Perhaps if they lose the screws, they wouldn't be in a losing position?

      Or maybe I'm just confused by your confusion between "lose" and "loose". Remember, double "o" is like loose women. Single "o" is for stuff that's lost.

  30. What about the forest/paper industry? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sure, media producers like magazines and newspapers would save on printing and paper costs, but what about the effect on forest and paper industry? I'm from Finland and I've seen mill after mill being shut down and cities and towns losing as much as 20% of it's income as a result. (corp tax, loss of income for the workers resulting in less buying power and added social welfare costs).

  31. Can it be done by simonbas · · Score: 1

    Did someone try to take out the free wireless device in the kindle and insert it in a eee pc? wouldn't THAT be nice?

  32. Now that they figured it out by geekoid · · Score: 1

    They'll be giving it away with an 8 gallon fill up in 2 years.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  33. ob. xkcd by prograde · · Score: 5, Funny

    I'm a little amazed that no one has linked to yesterday's XKCD.

    1. Re:ob. xkcd by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Could it be the lack of humor? Maybe people around here are starting to grow a little.

    2. Re:ob. xkcd by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      Sorry, poorly-drawn cartoons that try to make a name for themselves by latching on to every Internet trend to come along the pipe are not particularly compelling. Only to fanboys - who else would wait for the Kindle release, and then run to go read his favorite funny site to see if it's been featured yet or not?

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
  34. Amazon by Johnny+Mnemonic · · Score: 1

    Which all begs the real question, I think: Why doesn't Amazon give these things away? Increasing their use is really all to their advantage. It prevents people from sharing their books with their friends. Right now, if I buy a dead tree book it goes to my library or friends when I am done. Every time Amazon sells a kindle book, they lock out those other users and increase their potential revenue stream.

    There is no way in hell that I will buy one of these kindles until it supports PDF and plaintext. Word docs would be a bonus too. I really don't understand why the media is so excited for the opportunity to give Amazon $350 to be locked into the Amazon format for books. DRM issues aside, not being able to read the material that I already have in formats I like make this a total non-starter.

    But if they were giving them away I would be a lot more likely to try it, even with their own format. And if they can do that enough, the PDF will go away.

    --

    --
    $tar -xvf .sig.tar
    1. Re:Amazon by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      I really don't understand why the media is so excited for the opportunity to give Amazon $350 to be locked into the Amazon format for books.

      Because they want to do the same thing with movies, TV, etc. They just need to get enough generations of people to think that renting information is normal, and their progeny will be wealthy for evers and evers.

    2. Re:Amazon by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Becasue they would need to make 300,000,000 of them over night?

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    3. Re:Amazon by maxume · · Score: 1

      Except that the current generation is used to content being free and increasingly available (and increasingly so).

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    4. Re:Amazon by Synn · · Score: 1

      It does support PDF and plaintext:

      Kindle (AZW), TXT, Audible (formats 4, Audible Enhanced (AAX)), MP3, unprotected MOBI, PRC natively; PDF, HTML, DOC, JPEG, GIF, PNG, BMP through conversion.

      The reason people like it is because it's convenient. Most people don't buy books to resell or give away to friends. With the Kindle they can buy the book and it goes with them forever. If they lose the device, the books are still on their amazon account and can be re-downloaded.

      I personally have several boxes full of books in my garage. I only have those because I sold off the other 5 huge boxes. It'd be awesome if I was able to have all of those always available to me where ever I went on a device that's smaller and lighter than 1 book.

       

    5. Re:Amazon by afabbro · · Score: 1

      It does support PDF and plaintext:

      Um, no it doesn't...

      Kindle (AZW), TXT, Audible (formats 4, Audible Enhanced (AAX)), MP3, unprotected MOBI, PRC natively; PDF, HTML, DOC, JPEG, GIF, PNG, BMP through conversion.

      A dozen different operating systems can display PDFs with no problem, but the Kindle only supports them "through conversion" and makes no guarantees about whether they will work or not. I know, because a Kindle that supported PDFs would be something I would buy. The support is just not there.

      Oh, and you have to pay for each PDF you want to try to display because only Amazon can upload it to your Kindle for you. Sure, it's only 10 cents each, but why should I have to pay?

      --
      Advice: on VPS providers
    6. Re:Amazon by earlymon · · Score: 1

      I think you're misinformed to a small extent. My brother-in-law (just left town before I ask questions) showed me his Kindle 1 - while he was browsing Project Gutenberg - http://www.gutenberg.org/ - he was downloading a book from there and transferring to his Kindle via a USB-miniUSB cable, with the Kindle simply mounted as a USB drive.

      He claims that it works great. I asked him if it was PDF, and he said it wasn't that, he wasn't sure what it was - it just worked.

      I suspect that it's PRC format - see http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Gutenberg:File_Formats_FAQ and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kindle

      Further, here's something on converting PDF to PRC - http://www.cottontimer.com/2008/05/06/how-to-convert-pdf-files-to-read-on-the-amazon-kindle/

      All in all, it's beginning to sound to me like the Kindle has a lot more capability than people are giving it credit for, and it's picking up more FUD than OS X.

      --
      Pathological kinda promises Path + Logical - but instead, you get stuck with pathetic.
    7. Re:Amazon by Richy_T · · Score: 1

      You don't have to pay. Only if you want to be uploaded to your kindle automatically. Use their free service and load it over USB.

  35. Not too worried... by HiVizDiver · · Score: 4, Funny

    What're they going to do, throw jelly donuts and beer at us? I, for one, welcome our new jelly-donut-and-beer-throwing overlords.

    1. Re:Not too worried... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      evidently they're going to burn tires at us.

    2. Re:Not too worried... by Mattcelt · · Score: 1

      Ich bin ein... Canadian??

  36. Use netbooks for the net, Kindle for books by SpinyNorman · · Score: 1

    They are completely different devices built and optimized for different uses.

    The kindle:
    - Has an e-ink reflective display that you can read in bright sunlight
    - Has a battery life measured in days (or longer)
    - Weighs about 10oz and is 1/3" thick

    The netbook:
    - Has a fast backlit display that sucks power continuously, and gets washed out in bright light
    - Has a fast CPU that sucks power
    - Sucks power - battery life of a few hours
    - Weighs 2-3lb or more

    Sure the netbook is general purpose, but that generality comes at the cost of excluding the display/power/weight advantages that make the Kindle a far better bet if what you actually want to do is read books/PDFs/etc on the couch, plane, beach or elsewhere.

  37. not sure this would be a net improvement by Trepidity · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The number of trees saved will probably be around zero, since newsprint's wood source is almost exclusively tree farms. If demand for wood from tree farms decreased, they'd probably be cut down and turned to some other use, like farms of the non-tree variety.

    The other environmental effects are trickier to sort out. Paper, as you point out, uses lots of nasty chemicals. But then so does manufacturing electronics, and mining the various metals that go into electronics manufacturing. Disposing of electronics, even when they're recycled (usually in China) is a rather nasty business, too.

  38. why would that happen? by Trepidity · · Score: 1

    Most tree farms are on purely private, unregulated land. If it become uneconomical to continue them as tree farms, they'd probably be clear-cut and turned into non-tree farms.

    1. Re:why would that happen? by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 1

      If it become uneconomical to continue them as tree farms, they'd probably be clear-cut and turned into non-tree farms.

      In a sane world, there would be economic incentive - carbon credits, tax incentives, something - to re-forest exploited land.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    2. Re:why would that happen? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      In a sane world, if it were important to you, you would go do something about it instead of trying to get government to do it for you.

    3. Re:why would that happen? by AuMatar · · Score: 1

      That's what the government is- it's society's way of banding together to do something that would be difficult or impossible for a subset of us to otherwise organize to do.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    4. Re:why would that happen? by MushMouth · · Score: 1

      Government funded programs are perfect for projects that many people will reap the benefits from equally, but will not fund, like volcano research if you live in Hawaii, Hurricane research if you live on the gulf coast, or the small pox vaccine.

    5. Re:why would that happen? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      most tree farm locations are bought as license-to-utilize-forest-area. Other tree farms are purely private, unregulated lands as a result of lobbying local/state government to turn forest areas, usually on the fringes, into tree farms.

  39. How are we going by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    to send anonymous letter ?

    (A fRIenD THAT wisheS yOu Well)

  40. Am I the only one who likes newspapers? by LatencyKills · · Score: 1

    Call me a neanderthal, but I like newspapers. I'm unhappy at the thought that the day will come, and it will come, when I no longer get a Sunday newspaper, but something like a Sunday pdf that I look at on my laptop or my Kindle or whatever. My wife an I like flipping through the Sunday paper over pancakes, handing sections back and forth, pointing out stories to each other, she likes cutting coupons, flipping through the sales circulars. I just don't think all that works as well in E-form.

    --
    Jealously hoarding mod points since 2007.
    1. Re:Am I the only one who likes newspapers? by Culture20 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      My wife an I like flipping through the Sunday paper over pancakes, handing sections back and forth, pointing out stories to each other, she likes cutting coupons, flipping through the sales circulars. I just don't think all that works as well in E-form.

      1. flipping through the Sunday paper over pancakes - Doable, but syrup on newspaper is better than syrup on a kindle.
      2. handing sections back and forth - Zune Style Squirts would help here.
      3. pointing out stories to each other - I know couples that do this with laptops currently. They IM the URLs to each other, even when they're in the same room
      4. she likes cutting coupons - I'm betting that once companies realize that they're getting all the data and marketing they need from other sources, coupons and rebates will be a thing of the past. There's just too much expense with marginal benefit.
      5. flipping through the sales circulars - Reading a sales webpage on a computer is very similar to a sales flier with added benefits of searching for the things you want instead of looking through everything.

      To me, #1 is a show stopper. Getting expensive stuff dirty when I could have used something expendable for the same purpose is silly.

    2. Re:Am I the only one who likes newspapers? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      1) Solvable with a clear cover. As a bonus your not throwing away newspaper.

      2) excellent idea... but you would need another kindle.

      3) having access to an online version might help with this

      4) Imagine going to the store and the store keeper using the scan gun to scan a coupon on your kindle.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    3. Re:Am I the only one who likes newspapers? by ecksoh! · · Score: 1

      I like newspapers because I can grab the one that someone's left at the bus stop and read it while I'm waiting. It's weird to think that some day I might actually have to pay to read a newspaper.

  41. What about my Sunday Comics? by IIIKrazyKiDDIII · · Score: 1

    I'm all excited about the kindle, but if newspapers use the kindle, what about my Sunday morning comics in color?

  42. Number of trees saved by Repossessed · · Score: 1

    Zero. Logging occurs at the maximum possible rate allowed. And those trees are useful for a lot more than just paper. The price drop from a lack of wood pulp required for paper would allow other things to be made o wood more cheaply, thus bringing them more sales.

    --
    Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite (TM)
  43. e-Ink wasn't the first by speedtux · · Score: 1

    The first electronic paper came from Xerox PARC. It was called Gyricon and was developed years before e-Ink. They were 10-20 years ahead of their time and stopped development just a few years before there was finally a market for the technology.

    Here's more information:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyricon

  44. DRM doesn't bother me for periodicals by markjhood2003 · · Score: 1

    I read a newspaper or magazine once and then recycle it, so I see a future incarnation of the Kindle (larger, flexible) as ideal for a periodical delivery mechanism.

  45. Good, but no cigar. by RedCuber · · Score: 4, Informative

    I have a Sony eReader, and a 1st Generation Kindle. Doubtfull i'll be buying this new Kindle. The Sony is rubbish. The buttons are in the wrong place, you have to deal with it's leather case and the books available are few and far between. The Kindle however.. is a breath of fresh air. I love how it hangs off the Verizon network and downloads very quickly. It even feels good holding it - next page, back etc.. all in the right places. This won't replace the modern book. Here's the scenario: Techies - if you're reading technical books 9/10 you'll be scribbeling on them, highlighting passages, drawing circles etc.. as references to future projects or deployments. You'll then potentially go "Hey dBag - read this" to a colleague. They take a beating - Kindles do not work well with this. Vacation - i took my Kindle to a beach in the Indian ocean (Zanzibar) over xmas, and Kindles do not like the sand. It still works, but i was very cautious with it. It was GREAT not to have to hold pages back becase the wind was blowing it. Big fan of Kindle, but by no means a replacement for good old time-tested paper and ink. - RC

    --
    www.redcu.be
    1. Re:Good, but no cigar. by mdielmann · · Score: 1

      ...Kindles do not like the sand. It still works, but i was very cautious with it.

      I wonder how readable it is through a ziploc bag.

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
    2. Re:Good, but no cigar. by zeet · · Score: 1

      By Verizon, you mean Sprint, right? The deal was widely publicized.

  46. Poor value & the hatefulness of the book indus by kkrajewski · · Score: 1

    Exactly.

    * Buying the book on Half.com: $5 after shipping, and it's mine forever to donate, loan, or carve out and hide whiskey inside
    * Renting the book from Amazon: $10, not including amortizing the cost of the $300 device?! Also requires battery power.

    eBook rentals restricted in such a manner should cost substantially less if anything. The weight savings is not worth that much to me. I'll carry around the dead tree version.

    The book industry is retarded and frustrating to me. Here's one fun thing my University does:
    * Hire Pearson Custom Publishing to compile a book containing 3 chapters each of 4 books
    * Buy this book for somewhere in the range of $48-$64 based on the information on Pearson's site
    * Require this book and sell it for $162 (paperback!!), telling the students you're saving them the cost of buying 4 books

    Since it's a custom compilation you can't get it anywhere online used. But the 4 component books are each available for under $15 on Half.com, and then I get the whole book instead of just three chapters of it, AND I can resell them later. Well, thanks for that.

    I would feel motivated to cut off the binding and scan each page & seed it as a torrent.

  47. e-Toilet Paper next? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Now all we need is e-Toilet Paper and we'll start making some real headway on saving the forests!

  48. Still shouldn't cost almost 400 by nurb432 · · Score: 0, Redundant

    It comes down to greed.

    They will still make their $ back at a more reasonable per unit price of $150, it would just take a little longer. But not 2x as long as they would sell even more.

    Lower prices on a good product = more sales over the long haul.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    1. Re:Still shouldn't cost almost 400 by Pengo · · Score: 3, Funny

      Greed? How so?

      It's basic economics of supply and demand. There is no more "Greed" in the equation than that of the publishers selling paper books at $20, they have their margins and operating costs.

      My guess is what your definition of greed is, "It's a toy that I can't justify for the price, though I might like to have it if it was cheaper".

      Sounds more like your crying 'sour grapes' to me.

    2. Re:Still shouldn't cost almost 400 by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      They will still make their $ back at a more reasonable per unit price of $150, it would just take a little longer. But not 2x as long as they would sell even more.

      To date, there's no eInk based book reader I know of that costs less than $200 - even the Chinese ones such as Hanlin are more expensive than that. The cheapest ones I know are all slightly above the $200 mark, and those are units with previous-generation (lower-contrast) screens. All products with new screens cost >$300. This indicates to me that the profit margins aren't excessive - otherwise the Chinese had already started price-cutting.

      By the way, the cost of replacing a broken eInk screen is ~2/3 of the price of the device for Hanlin, IIRC. So screens are expensive, and that's where most of the price comes from.

    3. Re:Still shouldn't cost almost 400 by Killjoy_NL · · Score: 1

      For me it's a case of
      "Whaaa whaaaa I can't get it in the Netherlands because they are still talking to wireless providers whaaa whaaaa"
      Just sell it and if wireless access is ready, update the machine, in the meantime I could read my books.

      --
      This is the sig that says NI (again)
  49. The Internet by nurb432 · · Score: 1

    Never benefited anyone.

    Ok, perhaps the porn industry...

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  50. DRM == memory hole by SirGarlon · · Score: 1

    Wilcox says he sees a profitable future in which many book, magazine, and newspaper publishers will turn to e-paper

    With DRM, your license to read the content lasts exactly as long as the copyright holder wants it to. In this "profitable future," public libraries won't be able to keep archives of periodicals.

    --
    [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
    1. Re:DRM == memory hole by geekoid · · Score: 1

      If the music history of the last 10 years has taught us anything, it's that this will open up, and there will be a way for library to have access. Even if it's just a download from the publisher.

      Digital technology by it's nature moves the market to open up becasue it's so damn cheap to compete. and impossible to lock down.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  51. Our startup spent half that in 4 years. by strangeattraction · · Score: 1

    Our startup spent $68 million in 4 years. The VC eventually gave the company away for FREE rather that continue funding it.
    Another Bio tech I was at spent $25 million in 6 months and the VC decided to with draw. This after over a $100 mill had been put in.
    For how long it took, what they produced in the end and what it will eventually make they got a deal.

  52. Old joke time by Bearhouse · · Score: 1

    Q: Why will the Kindle never replace the newpaper?

    A: Ever tried swatting a fly with a Kindle?

    First seen, IIRC, with 'TV' in place of 'Kindle'

    On another subject, I am the only one who thinks of 'kindling' whenever I hear of this device? Yet another application that it can't replace newsprint in.

    1. Re:Old joke time by afabbro · · Score: 1

      On another subject, I am the only one who thinks of 'kindling' whenever I hear of this device?

      Exactly. I hear about the Kindle and I think about book burning.

      --
      Advice: on VPS providers
  53. are you arguing for vigilantism? by Trepidity · · Score: 1

    If the problem is un-costed negative externalities, it seems that the sanest way to fix the problem is to assign prices to the externalities through some sort of political body. I suppose you could do it yourself through viligantism, by assigning a "price" to negative externalities via sabotage or extortion, but that doesn't seem superior.

  54. From Questionable Content: by renimar · · Score: 2, Funny

    Source

    Faye: "It's a little known fact that every Canadian citizen is born with a sharp, serrated edge somewhere on their body as protection from polar bears and enraged Quebecois."

    Marten: "Every night they quietly hone their blades, biding their time until the Great Curling, when they will cleanse the earth of all other nations. That's why they're all so polite- they know we're all doomed eventually."

    --
    In other news, Microsoft Windows users are now covered under the Americans with Disabilties Act...
    1. Re:From Questionable Content: by MadUndergrad · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Glad to see I'm not the only one who reads QC.

    2. Re:From Questionable Content: by khellendros1984 · · Score: 1

      I never would've remembered that >_ There are so many 2 line jokes like that in the comic....

      --
      It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
  55. The dream lives on by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    If physical books are no longer printed or printed in far smaller runs, this means that the secondary market collapses.

    Well of course, that's rather the whole point of the kindle and why publishers adopt books for it.

    Though if they were smarter they'd make the Kindle books cheaper instead of more expensive, to drive adoption through the roof. Thankfully they are not that smart.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  56. Open? by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    This is just another attempt at turning book ownership into the same thing music ownership has become

    With Apple finally having killed music DRM, the music world is as open as we can ever hope it to be.

    Now if you want to compare it to digital video ownership, that would probably be a lot more close to the situation at hand.

    The question is if there's some kind of path that leads to DRM free books the same way music was able to find a way. Sadly, I see books as more like video than music and so even if there is a path it may take a ton of time to get there.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  57. YABWF by mangu · · Score: 1

    Yet Another Broken Window Fallacy

    What happened to the 80 billion worth of printers, loggers, paper mills, transport, and fish-wrappers?

    They will get better-paying jobs in more productive activities.

    It took a caveman at least one day of work to make a chipped stone knife. A worker in a factory makes several thousand knifes each day using automated machines. Do you consider that a loss?

    1. Re:YABWF by icebike · · Score: 1

      Oh stop with this Broken Window crap and read what I wrote.

      You can not claim WORLD COST SAVINGS by simply adding up the cost savings to the newspaper industry.

      Have you factored in the cost of the plants to build the Kindle? The training, the tech support, distribution, the marketing and the fact that everyone has to have an internet connection to read a frikin paper?

      I realize its much easier to monkey-see-monkey-say some nonsense out of a some fallacy web page than do any real economic analysis, but you could at least PRETEND to make an effort.

      I never claimed we should not adopt new technology, I merely said the alleged savings are utter hogwash.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    2. Re:YABWF by mangu · · Score: 1

      Have you factored in the cost of the plants to build the Kindle? The training, the tech support, distribution, the marketing and the fact that everyone has to have an internet connection to read a frikin paper?

      Yes, exactly, that's what makes it a "broken window" fallacy. All the training and tech support for the people will make them more productive workers. People will progress from being lumberjacks to professionals trained in advanced technology.

      $80 billion spent in cutting trees and making pulp paper will be trash at the end of the day. $80 billion spent in building factories and training people is an investment that will be repaid in the future.

    3. Re:YABWF by icebike · · Score: 1

      > People will progress from being lumberjacks to professionals trained in advanced technology.

      Clearly you've never met a lumberjack!

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    4. Re:YABWF by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      YES! I'm a caveman you insensitive clod!

  58. Netbook is obviously better, has more features by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    Netbooks have a fraction of the battery life, are heavier, are bigger, and are harder to read for long periods of time.

    You've forgotten that because the Netbook has more features and buttons it automatically "wins".

    Never mind usability.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  59. power sucking kindle is hardly 'green tech' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    how about all the trees burned to make
    power to power these thirsty things.
    They want power, more power, ever more power.

    How green is that?
    give me a book that I don't need a battery for
    everytime.

  60. Re: Broken Window Fallacy - False by geekoid · · Score: 1

    Except the it presume the shop keep would spend his 6 francs.

    In modern business, that is not always the case.

    the fallacy is about an non-budgeted expense, so you can only discuss if the shopkeepers would have had another non-budgeted expense to replace that one.
    Since we are talking about non-budgeted must have items, then it is likely he will have those expenses ANYWAYS; regardless if he had a broken window or not. Meaning if he HAS to get shoes he will spend another six francs on shoes along with he six francs he spent to get his glass replaced.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  61. How to get a tire started? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ask Winnie Mandela.

    (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necklacing / http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnie_Mandela)

  62. Same Screen as 2006 Sony Reader by golden.radish · · Score: 1

    The size and resolution of the screen on the Kindle 2 is identical to the Sony PRS 500, released November 1, 2006.

    E-ink had the screens (and eval kits) long before that.

    Adding more shades of gray is not making the display vastly better. Making it the 8 inch diagonal that is a modern paperback and losing the wasted real estate (42% of the top surface area of the kindle 2 is NOT screen) would be an innovation.

    Sorry Amazon, no money for you. I'll keep my PRS 500 and wait for a paperback sized display, not a ripoff of 3+ year old tech.

  63. Nothing can save the NYT by hardwarefreak · · Score: 1

    Silicon Alley Insider recently calculated that the New York Times could save more than $300 million a year by shutting down its presses and buying every subscriber a Kindle

    Nothing can save the New York Times. Well, ok, maybe Nationalization, or a taxpayer bailout, or, God forbid, wholesale conversion into a politically conservative paper.

  64. It would actually be BETTER on kindle by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    The paper has to put in the SAME ad to everybody. The kindle would put in an ad TARGETING a person. I do not want ads that target MS loving, KKK, neo-cons types. I would not buy that stuff. OTH, there are PLENTY of ppl who support all that. So instead, I would get ads for Linux, Education, High Tech items.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  65. No, not yet. by Starker_Kull · · Score: 1

    Why should I buy an e-book reader? Show me one with the following abilities:

    1) Has 600 DPI+, not 167 DPI. 167 DPI is about as pleasant as a 60 Hz CRT.

    2) Allows me to put any files, from any creators, in any format I want to read on it, WITHOUT MANDATORY DRM. Pdfs, rtfs, plain text, Word docs, whatever.

    3) Allows me to have access to the underlying OS as I see fit.

    The ONLY significant thing the Kindle has over a netbook is a (slightly) more pleasant screen - e-ink vs. LCD and 167 DPI vs. 100 DPI. They both still suck for long extended reads, but I can access the internet, read any docs I feel like, do some coding or play simple games on a netbook. Perhaps someone should stick an e-ink screen on a netbook?

    In the meanwhile, I'm keeping my books. And git off my lawn.

    1. Re:No, not yet. by ErikZ · · Score: 1

      1) Has 600 DPI+, not 167 DPI. 167 DPI is about as pleasant as a 60 Hz CRT.

      Have you looked at one? I mean, have you *even tried* reading from one? A lot of people have bad things to say about the Kindle. But the vast majority of those people have never even seen one with their own eyes. Let alone picked one up and seriously used it.

      Allows me to put any files, from any creators, in any format I want to read on it, WITHOUT MANDATORY DRM. Pdfs, rtfs, plain text, Word docs, whatever.

      Yeah, it does that. Next hand waving excuse...

      Allows me to have access to the underlying OS as I see fit.

      Oh, I see the problem now. You don't want an e-book reader. You want a toy. A gadget you can play with. Well they sell the development kit for 3k if you want.

      I use my Kindle as a reader. I put books on it, then, I read them. Ta da. It's made a great replacement for paper books.

      --
      Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
    2. Re:No, not yet. by Starker_Kull · · Score: 1

      Have you looked at one? I mean, have you *even tried* reading from one? A lot of people have bad things to say about the Kindle. But the vast majority of those people have never even seen one with their own eyes. Let alone picked one up and seriously used it.

      Yes, for about half an hour I had a chance to play around with and read from one at a friend's home, who happens to be a book editor and a Kindle enthusiast. It's easier to read from than a computer screen. It's worse to read from than the printed page. As I implied with my 60 Hz comment, since 60 Hz CRTs drive some people batty and others not at all, it bothers me enough that I find it unpleasant. For some people, like you, it may be sufficient. For her? She's still on the fence, and she reads books for a living.

      Allows me to put any files, from any creators, in any format I want to read on it, WITHOUT MANDATORY DRM. Pdfs, rtfs, plain text, Word docs, whatever.

      Yeah, it does that. Next hand waving excuse...

      Wrong. The only support that is built in for non-DRM content is mobipocket books, and plain text. No pdfs, Word docs, and rtf - although an 'experimental' converter is available for pdfs, and if you feel like e-mailing your docs to Amazon, for Word and HTML docs. For me, that's too much of a PITA. I like dragging the files I want to read on it over, and not have to convert them. I guess this issue is not a problem for you. It is for me.

      Allows me to have access to the underlying OS as I see fit.

      Oh, I see the problem now. You don't want an e-book reader. You want a toy. A gadget you can play with. Well they sell the development kit for 3k if you want.

      I use my Kindle as a reader. I put books on it, then, I read them. Ta da. It's made a great replacement for paper books.

      Yes. How astute of you, reading what I wrote and noticing I want what I want! I want, for me, not anyone else, including you, a general, multi-function device, that can be used to do many things. I don't feel like carrying around an e-book reader, a notebook computer, a phone, an address book, a calendar, and lord knows what else. The fewer things I have to carry around in my daily life, the better.

      One reason I generally dislike zealots of all stripes is they instantly assume what's good for them is good for every one else. The Kindle is good enough, for you. I don't think it's good enough for me. I didn't predict its demise in the marketplace, I didn't say Kindle buyers were stupid, I simply gave a list of reasons why I won't be buying one. I even said 'Yet' in the subject of my post, and said 'git off my lawn' to give the hint to the clueful that I realize I may wind up being behind the adoption curve because of my personal preferences.

      What do you contribute to the discussion? You write back a nasty response with factual errors and incorrect assumptions, denigrating my reasons because they are not yours. Kind of a waste, don't you think? Unless you get off on being contemptuous, sarcastic, and wrong...

  66. Come on already by Phoghat · · Score: 1

    I want a Kindle, just not for $349. I'm looking for some kind of reduced price (not likely). I'm also looking forward to [http://www.plasticlogic.com/product.html]

    --
    Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
  67. Nick Sheridan really invented this in the 70s by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    at Xerox PARC, who also blew that development as well other more notable computer advances.

    It's been more than 30 years, and the stuff still isn't in high volume mass production. Meanwhile LCD gets better and better for reading, and at 10X lower cost structure, with volumes in the billions it's just a matter of whether it hits in 2010 or 2011.

  68. H0H0H0 by afxgrin · · Score: 1

    Just type in H0H0H0 .... it seems to accept it. Apparently this is the postal code for Santa Claus - so when kids mail letters, the post office knows what to do with them.

    I have no idea why I know this.

    --Nick.

  69. How much would that be in CO2-certificates? by Kaukomieli · · Score: 1

    Nowadays where everything gets calculated into CO2 - how would the trees calculate in CO2 saved? Could they just sell CO2-certificates and give everyone a kindle2 for free?

    (and is it able to light my chimney, as its name suggests?)

  70. Peanut gallery critics by agiduda · · Score: 1
    I bought one for my wife, it came yesterday, I'm impressed. Very easy on the eyes to read a long time without eye strain. I find the not-bright white less strain on the eyes.

    I've been buying technical literature as much as I can lately as PDF files. Partly because they are cheaper and I was not liking the pile of books in boxes in the garage that are now obsolete, taking up space and I don't know what to do with them.

    Beyond being able to send MS Word, HTML, TXT and images there are converters for PDF and other ebook formats that once converted will make them available over your wireless network. True the formatting of these methods tends to get munged but are quite readable.

    Last night I bought an Oreilly PDF about Facelets, sent it to the email address of the Kindle and within minutes was comfortably reading.

    As for the tiresome rants about DRM from the basement dwelling, mouth breathing geeks that know nothing about a Kindle...

    Re-read the above, read more about what this thing can do, look at one, note my sig

    And get off my lawn!

    --
    How much easier it is to be critical than to be correct.
    -Benjamin Disraeli
  71. ease of use and familiar experience by nuttyp · · Score: 1

    The format of books (a physical object that can be held easily and contains good reading content) is a widely accepted and well liked UI. It is no wonder that eBooks are and will continue to get more and more popular. This is definitely the wave of the future. People will be sipping on their coffee and reading the news on their eReaders. Personally, I think this format will suffer if we were to try to add too many other more features to it other than book and news material. It wouldn't be a good idea to compete with portable handheld devices (like phones and cameras, etc).

  72. Why I won't bother with a Kindle (2) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They still have yet to offer it with a case that has "DON'T PANIC" in large, friendly (green) letters on the cover.

  73. Pixel Qi by ^_^x · · Score: 1

    I think the massive development costs for epaper are unwarranted. It was a great idea, but too hard to do, and people's minds were already set on doing it in the old microcapsule way.

    The OLPC screen designed by Mary Lou Jepsen is pretty great - the only issue is that the material on the back of the screen reflects the light at too pure an angle - if it were a bit more diffuse it would be a perfect e-paper alternative. In sunlight or bright ambient light it's incredible, and it's quite low power. If color is needed, at the cost of a bit of fuzziness it can display color images and video very well.

    I'm keeping my eye on her new project, Pixel Qi. Personally though, I've been happy reading books on my HandSpring Visor, Sony Clie PEG-SJ33, PSP (with homebrew "KittyBook"), and now Stanza on my iPod Touch. I don't really need a paperlike display since I grew up reading textfiles on my home PC anyway.

  74. Re: Broken Window Fallacy - False by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

    Ah, but if he has more money, he may buy more expensive shoes. Also, if he keeps his money at a bank, the bank will reinvest that money by lending it to someone else. Or did you think the bank just sits on money deposited there? Banks have but a small fraction of total deposits available in the form of tangible cash.