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Seven Arrested After Protesting Army Video Game Recruiting Center
GamePolitics writes "Seven anti-war protesters were arrested in Philadelphia on Saturday during a protest rally and march which targeted the Army Experience Center, a high-tech recruitment center which uses PC and Xbox games and simulations to attract potential recruits. GamePolitics was on hand to cover the protest, and took video of the arrests. A local news station also reported on the rally, and the Peace Action Network released a statement saying, "In its desperate approach to meet recruiting numbers, the military is teaching the wrong values to teenagers. Sugarcoating combat experience with virtual war is a dishonor to those with real war experience."
i for one have played America's Army for years, and i would love to play in the vehicles and huge screens with other ppl! sure its a recruitment tool but take it for what it is, a great team-based shooter.
Where were all these protesters during the last 8 years when Bush was acting like an idiot?
Are the games any fun?
If so, can you play if you are older than recruiting age?
After watching the video, that "Army Experience" store, set up in a mall, strikes me as a little twisted. It seems pretty clear this place was set up to resemble a video game center to "lure" high school kids to it so recruiters would have an opportunity to talk to them about joining the Army. I'm not very comfortable having my government treating its kids this way.
---Technology will liberate us if it doesn't enslave us first.
The twitter feed was boring as usual, but it has an interesting observation...
# A few in crowd have donned plain white masks... Not sure but they seemed to come from inside the aec
And later...
# Wow, about a half-dozen of the protesters in the white masks just got arrested. Hooked up with plastic cuffs and led away by police.
# I think they planned to get arrested for symbolic reasons... Leader just announced that 7 were arrested. All in plain white msks
So it was a publicity stunt? And why the people arrested came from within the army recruiting facility?
GamePolitics was on hand to cover the protest, and took video of the arrests...
All I saw was a line of cops in front of the Army XP Center and some protesters mingling about.
This is America. What the hell do you think gives you the right to peacefully assemble and protest? Only terrorists do that. Now bow down before our magnificent leader. You must go and die for his glory.
I have played AA for 6 years it's a great game, on the flip side I served as Infantry for 12 years. The AA game simulates the battle side of the army but nothing about the other phases (book training, guard duty, and cleaning the base) AA tends to glorify the battle side. I entered in 1989 and served till 2001 (medical discharge) I volunteer to go anywhere I could, but was never deployed outside the US. while the war training was fun it wasn't a common ordeal during my service time. on a final note http://www.pvtmurphy.com/Prints/Any%20Luck.htm
I'm told you are what you eat, does that mean I can be you by tomorrow with some A1?
In Norway we have semi-obligatory military service for males (basically a 1 year training program to be prepared in the event of an invasion. After that it's possible to join the army full time. Semi-obligatory because it's not that hard to get out of. So the following could be considered a recruitment event). All males of around 18 years old (and I think they've made attending this obligatory for females too now, just not obligatory for them to serve) are called in for a "Sesjon" (Session?) to determine physical and mental abilities, as well as a minor health checkup.
One of the first things they did was show us a movie, to spark our interest, I suppose. But all it was were kids driving around in tanks, climbing stuff and being out in nature. Not a single image of what war actually is. Not even a drop of blood.
Truth in advertising should be much more prevalent and mandatory when we're dealing with the worst of all things, war.
We are all God's parents.
"Seven anti-war protesters were arrested in Philadelphia on Saturday during a protest rally and march which targeted the Army Experience Center, a high-tech recruitment center which uses PC and Xbox games and simulations to attract potential recruits...
It looks like they meant anti-war ralliers or war protesters, not anti-war protesters. The media in general constantly seems to repeat this phrase incorrectly.
EOF
I wonder how much of our tax dollars went into that facility, looks pretty state-of-the-art. Anyone remember the movie "Toys," starring Robin Williams?
I found it ironic that as a service member, I had less freedoms available to me. The freedom of speech, needing to ask for permission to get married, etc. Throw in the the base clubs weren't allowed to have "offensive" music (and of course the sensitive types wouldn't have the decency to stay home). /sigh. Buy all the liquor, tobacco and bibles you want, but no porn!
"Common sense will be the death of us all"
This story is boring for one why protest the recruitment of soldiers when you should protest at the office of your representative and senator. The people that send soldiers to war. I suppose if you were trying to hire 18-24 year old people you go after their sense of world responsibly.... Come on! The old method was selling it as a 9-5 job that you got college money when you were done. This method was a lot more false advertising than showing kids video games of people fighting and dying.
...which I opted out of the non-easy way, by becoming a CO
Conscientious objector
:-)
or Commanding Officer
?
It's just like XBox -- only you die.
Anyone who played an online multiplayer shooter will attest that the experience is very close to real life war. The fresh young recruit steps onto the battlefield, expecting a grand battle the likes of the opening of Saving Private Ryan, only to end up in the scope of a spawn point camping sniper who is only farming headshots on the newbies...
On one hand, I have great respect for the military and the sacrifices soldiers are willing to make to protect their fellow citizens, whether fighting somewhere else in the world to preserve democracy (yes, I really believe that's what they are doing, historically and now) or serving at home during disaster relief, helping their fellow citizens directly.
On the other hand war is something to be abhorred and avoided. It's always a last resort. Soldiers are a precious resource that we (as the people ultimately in charge of our political system) are responsible for protecting too. We must not send them into war for questionable reasons, or ask them to do a job that squanders the sacrifice they are willing to make.
Finally, if people are being recruited into the military while being falsely informed about what that really means to do the job, yeah, that is obscene. It deserves some good, old, democratically-principled protest.
The only video game that would be realistic would be one where it's "game over" if you are mortally wounded, and where you have to haul your non-mortally wounded buddies out of the battle zone or they die too. I know America's Army is far better than the usual "near-instant respawn" that is typical (it's no "Team Fortress"), but it still glosses over the unreality in the game. Let kids "13 and up" talk to real vets and serving military officers about the upside and the downside of their job, as recruitment has always done, and leave the virtual reality out of it. Glitzing it up too much is misleading.
But you do have to know where to draw the line between protest and obstructing other people's rights to their own decisions on the matter. The protesters should be as loud as they want on public land, but not block the door.
If a thousand protesters showed at random times carrying no signs or taking any other attitude that would identify them as protesters, then asked politely the recruiters: "Cool, but may I play on the insurgents side please?"
Typical uninformed protestors.
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2009/03/army_recruiting_numbers_031109w/
The military is enjoying a recruiting boom thanks to the poor economy. Enlistment bonuses are getting cut and the military is getting much more selective in whom they accept. This year in particular is a recruiter's wet dream.
All this "experience" does is reach out to Generation Y in a new way.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
Okay. Films like FMJ, that (rightfully or not) demonize military culture, are okay. But a video game depicting a limited facet of the military experience is horrible evil propaganda?
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
It looks like you have a different definition of militarism than khallow was using, or at least are looking at a different meaning.
I'd describe your definition as 'military skills' - If you're going to have a military, best to have it be as effective as possible.
On the other hand, Khallow's 'militarism' is a philosophy of using the military in the most offensive way possible, of looking at the military as first and last solution to any international problem.
They're substantially different things. Even the Marine Core wants their Marines to be violent only when the situation calls for it.
As for Cadences, didn't you figure out that they're supposed to be dirty/politically incorrect?
I don't read AC A human right
What now, Bibles or no porn? Or did they censor the parts where the people in the Bible fucked like rabbits (or was it with them?)?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
And, to put said cost into scope, you also need to know how many 'leads' said facility generates, how many turn into recruitments, and the average/median quality of the troops recruited from said center.
Think about the cost of those national 'go army' recruiting TV ads. Recruiting is expensive.
I don't read AC A human right
Inside one of those centers, a youngster playing for ages, along comes a recruiter.
Recruiter: Hi there, I see you're pretty good.
Young person: Yeah. Bob, can ya snipe that asshole shooting at me?
Recruiter: Well, I'm pretty sure you'd be a great soldier yourself.
YP: Maybe. I see him, in the bushes there! Don't aim, rattle down a belt, dammit!
Recruiter: Maybe you should consider joining the army.
YP: Whatever. Fuck! We're under fire, get over to the bushes and call in some arti!
Recruiter: You can enlist right here, and join that in the reality!
YP (earning himself a headshot): What the...? (turns to recruiter) Could you just shut up or better fuck off, you're ruining it! Can't you go bother someone else or just die maybe?
In other words, who goes there to hear about real war? Real war is boring, tedious, outright dangerous. And the least of your time is spent collecting headshots.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Some people protested and got arrested!!1one!!! The end of the world is near! Democracy is falling and we are all going to die!!!one!1! Kill all authority figures!!11!one!11!
There was that enough misplaced and misused fear and outrage for you? I hope so because that is all you are going to get.
Why the fuck did this make it on to Slashdot?
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
The US Army's goal is to discourage violent alternatives to peaceful cohabitation and negotiation. That often requires the civility of a headshot.
What a great way to lead by example!
Instead of the US peacefully cohabiting the earth and negotiating with Iraq, they invade the country and shoot all the violent people.
You owe me a new irony detector.
Military recruiting has never been about truth in advertising. When I recruited for the USAF ('93-'97, 368 RCS OL-FD Reno, NV), I hung the front page of the European Stars and Stripes printed on the first day of the first Gulf War on the front wall of my office, the first thing a visitor saw when they came through the front door. It was a night-vision picture of an F-15E Strike Eagle, fully loaded with death and destruction, refueling from a KC-135 aerial tanker with WAR in a 3-inch bold font above the photo. My superiors suggested I should take it down since it might scare off potential applicants. I left it up - I felt it was important that even those folks joining the "Chair Force" should understand that the ultimate purpose of the military was not to provide job training, college money, or a pay check twice a month; the ultimate purpose of the military was to fight the nation's wars - everything else was secondary to that.
I don't think I lost a single applicant because of that picture. Even though I sold the benefits the Air Force provided (Money, Advancement, Training, Travel, Recreation, Education, Service, and Satisfaction), I made sure the applicant understood that they were applying to join an organization whose mission was to fly, fight, and win. If I was asked "will I go to war?" I told the applicant the chances were slim they would ever be engaged in direct combat (again, this was years before Afghanistan and the second invasion of Iraq and the use of Air Force personnel to run convoys, etc.), but the possibility always existed. Ultimately it was the applicant's responsibility to make the decision whether to enlist or not.
Yeah, there are dirtbag recruiters in all the branches who lie. Some get caught and are disciplined, others don't. But I don't have much sympathy for anyone who enlists because his or her recruiter told them they'd never go to war (and anyone who enlists today, after six years of Afghanistan and Iraq in the news every day, who thinks they'll never go to war is simply a self-deluded idiot and should be discharged at the earliest opportunity). There are a lot of misconceptions about military life propagated by the media and the education industry, but not fighting wars is not one of them. Trust me - the first day of basic training it's made very clear to the recruits (this includes the Air Force) the reason they're there - to fight the nation's wars. And its not hard for a recruit to get kicked out of basic training if that's what he really wants - we'd rather do it then and there than spend the money to train, house, and feed him only to have him start crying "I was told I wouldn't have to go war!" down the road.
Sorry, but any kid who enlists in the Army thinking war is just like a video game is just dumber than dumb. The Army isn't being dishonest or even disingenuous using this as a recruiting tool. The folks who are protesting this aren't upset about truth in advertising and they're not offering an alternative to these kids, many of whom either can't afford or aren't ready for college. There isn't a social program out there that can provide the same benefits military service does. And for every story you hear about someone not being able to find a job after spending four years in the military there are dozens of others like me who used their military experience and benefits as a stepping stone to bigger and better things in life.
What?
The mall can boot the gov't out, but as far as I'm concerned, that space is free for protest as long as the gov't is paying for it.
Blar.
Who owns the property. Not the gov't. The property owner. If my tax dollars pay for it, it's public. If the property owner doesn't like the protests, he can try to boot his tenant and the protesters out. The gov't can't boot out citizens.
Different rules apply. This is why we don't like to conflate government and private enterprise. Gets messy.
We can't let the military hide behind private business and vice versa. It breeds contempt for the military and the gov't.
Blar.
Then I realized it was mostly Republicans losing life and limb for Bush's honorless campaign. I think we're even for their flag-waving cries of "If you question the mission you don't support the troops" that I heard so often.
Occupying Irag over lies had made it harder for future US governments to convince the people of the need to go to war. This could backfire badly, should a real threat arise.
Blar.
Okay. Films like FMJ, that (rightfully or not) demonize military culture, are okay. But a video game depicting a limited facet of the military experience is horrible evil propaganda?
FMJ does not "demonize" - it is simply realistic. It doesn't glorify either, though...
"A" video game may or may not be propaganda but "THE" game (America's Army) sure is. But is it "evil" and "demonizing"? Well...
I guess it is exactly the case as with you and FMJ.
Depending on which side of the fence you are - both are either "depicting a limited facet of the military experience" or "being evil propaganda tools".
Personally, I find that game to be simply boring.
Its work vs fun ratio is really bad, plus you only get to play one side, and there are no tanks, transporters or aircraft.
I'd rather play Battle Field 2 any day.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
Yeah, but nobody likes old porn
Being a denizen of the area, I heard on the local radio talk show both sides of the argument. The leader of the protesters was only concerned about one specific game being played in the center that taught killing people is "OK" Of course, this is just like most war games do at home but I guess you have to take a stand somewhere. The protesters were a wide range of 30+ individual groups where many were more radical than others. We shouldn't lump sum them into one mindset. The actual protest leaders were fairly moderate and very reasonable.
... they all went home to play CoD4 with their kids...
Yeah, but nobody likes old porn
Mmm.. senior porn.
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everybody agrees that it is old enough to know better." - Unknown
I think the quote stating that having a war video game dishonors those who have fought in real battles.... is interesting. I take issue with this for several reasons. 1) Video games serve as a tactical simulation and provide an enhanced learning experience for participants. 2) Video games will most accurately simulate the war of the future. [Remote control, camera and sensor based] 3) How can a video game dishonor war veterans? Do people really think war veterans care if you play a video game about a battle they were in? Really? I can understand the protester trying to make a point, but let's keep it real.
Good luck with that one. By the time they can join the army and go off to fight a war they will no longer be children. Until then they are giving them a safe place to play teen rated video game and talk to role models.
I read an article (cannot recall which site) about this yesterday where it explained that those arrested were arrested for wearing masks in a public demonstration. Like it or not covering your face while protesting is illegal in many cities in the USA.
wtf? Where I'm from that's a bad sign when people with the red brassards show up
To be fair, Full Metal Jacket isn't part of a government campaign to coerce young people to take very dangerous jobs.
Amazing how you neglect to mention documented arrests where people just standing on a corner waiting to cross the street were "swept up" in orange nets.
It's very easy to get arrested. Some people have it down to a science. It also means your story will get more coverage than without arrests.
Why does it seem that all the government-hating anarchist pig fuckers have mod points today...
I found it ironic that as a service member, I had less freedoms available to me. The freedom of speech, needing to ask for permission to get married, etc. Throw in the the base clubs weren't allowed to have "offensive" music (and of course the sensitive types wouldn't have the decency to stay home). /sigh. Buy all the liquor, tobacco and bibles you want, but no porn!
You don't need permission to get married, unless you are planning on marrying a foreigner while you are stationed in a foreign country.
Come join the Army and shoot the Hun. Apply quickly as respawns are on a "first come, first served" basis and VERY limited.
When I was a kid, about ten years old, I knew some guys, my father's friends, who had fought in WWII. I asked them about their war experiences, and there's one thing all of them said: the first kill is the most difficult. They had seen guys die because they hesitated, in war those who cannot shoot first die.
There are many situations in war where restraint is called for, but it's very difficult to train 18-year-olds to have the appropriate judgement when needed. Training them to kill remorselessly is a way to let them survive, at the expense of less trained 18-year-olds in the other side.
www.americasarmy.ca
It's times like these I wish there was a "creepy" mod. Funny works, just not as well.
will_die - "older than recruiting age?"
smchris references that older than recruiting age is 43 and gets marked as a troll??? Is it ageist? WTH?
Give me more points, I'll clean this place up!
[UID-HeinzIntel]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Norwegian_military_personnel_killed_in_World_War_II
Seeing as Norwegians fought on both sides during WWII, I'm not sure what you are on about.
[UID-HeinzIntel]
I heard of an interview of some GIs during WW2 and they described army life something like this. "Combat is 90% boredom and 10% sheer terror".
When are they going to start making Predator Drone simulators available, then start taking the highest scoring kids and having them run real missions without the kid's knowledge?
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
Im sure they are now cataloged as such.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Branches of one's own government should not be in the business of manipulating their own citizens in this fashion.
And yes, I recognize that ship has generally sailed, but this is an egregious example... and then to arrest peaceful protesters on top of it to squelch dissent and keep that manipulation out of public awareness? That's unconstitutional and criminal.
I feel this is a good recruiting tool, and it doesn't just show the men/women what they might go through, but also allows them to learn teamwork and how to trust each other. The electronic retailer giant Best Buy used to require their Geek Squad employees to play the game Mechwarrior as a part of their training and it had positive effects including better communication, teamwork, and also trust.
Those that operate above the normal legal standards also need to be held to a higher moral standard: Being a military serviceman is not something to take lightly. I don't agree with all the policies (Seriously, no porn? Yeah, right, get right on that), but the reduced freedom of speech, the need to verify potential associates, etc, are part of the tradeoffs that come with the position.
Thank you, though, for making them.
When life gives you crap, Make Crapade.
Sluggy Freelance.
...to defend the Frontier from Xur and the Kodan Armada?
That depends on what era the poster served in. My grandfather, a WWII navy pilot, had to marry in secret because he wasn't allowed to.
Well, the debate on which moral standard should be upheld is a fun and pointless on here, but I do understand there are practical needs to be met. Not having a "Elect Soandso" sign on your lawn to prevent others from thinking that the military endorses a specific candidate, for example. The only thing I found a bit frustrating about the military system after leaving is I got VERY used to socialized medicine. Just show up, "Doc, I'm sick" and get taken care of. None of this HMO paperwork bullshit.
:P
I hate paperwork
"Common sense will be the death of us all"
Even stateside, unless I understood wrong, you could be denied the bump in allowances that having dependents allows for. That includes housing, food and the like. I'm sure everybody wanted to bring their new spouse into the dorms/barracks. One of my troops was marrying an American from back home, but we were overseas. I never really looked into it as I had no desire to get married and he actually did everything right without needing assistance via the 1st Sgt.
"Common sense will be the death of us all"
in a real democracy, free speech rules. we the people have been paying for the video game recruiting center with our tax dollars. this indeed makes it part of public discourse. -- until we shut it down!
The story of Lot is a good one. Biblical proof that a man can be raped by a woman, even when stone blind drunk. I have heard some new translations/interpretations of the bibles have changed things in them, though. Jesus made water in to grape juice, not evil alcoholic wine, for example.
"Common sense will be the death of us all"
Protest the war. Exercise you first amendment rights. But don't tell me I'm wearing green when I know what green looks like and I'm actually wearing blue. I guarantee you that the kids know that people die in battle. Maybe they feel a sense of patriotism and responsibility towards serving their country through the military. Maybe they just get off knowing they get to shoot a big-ass gun at some person of color. Whatever their motivation, let's stop discounting their ability to understand the concept of death and dismemberment and the potential consequences of their decision to join the military. That's just rude.
And stop trying to demonize recruiters and start placing that label on the people that truly deserve it - lawyers and insurance companies.
Whoo hoo! I'm sensing a profit here... The New Picture Bible, featuring Playboy's Girls of Gomorra!
Pathological kinda promises Path + Logical - but instead, you get stuck with pathetic.
Your problem here Moryath is that your "asswad shithead anarchists" will pretty much include a bunch of smelly drunk rioters who costume themselves like savages and harrass legitimate business shipping interests. They'll be headed up by bartenders and metal workers who pick flamboyant and self-indulgent names like "The Sons of Liberty." Sam Adams and Paul Revere were hardly the sort of proper, genteel people who wrote polite letters to their betters.
It should be simple. People have the right to petition for a redress of grievances, and if they exercise that right in a loud and obnoxious fashion, then so be it. It's still preferable to the acts of assault, kidnapping, vandalism and sabotage that our Founding Fathers engaged in.
Absolutely nothing takes priority over that right, which is why it heads the list of the Bill of Rights as the First Amendment. If the government's there, then it's going to have to listen to all of its citizens, not just the demure and well-scrubbed ones. Hiding behind "This is private property" isn't going to cut it. If the government needs space, then let it exercise eminent domain and simply declare the space it needs and build a building, but under no circumstances should the right of the people to petition the government for a redress of grievances be abridged.
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
You're just not reading the bible right...
I've played a fair number of FPS games based on "realistic" wars (as opposed to science fiction or horror genre wars). The one thing every single one of them has in common is that it takes several respawns for me to make it through the game--or even through the first area.
This does not make me want to go out and fight in a real war. Real war does not have respawns.
Essentially, the government does not get to hide from dissent by scheme or contrivance. The government does not get to put roadblocks in the way of citizens expressing their views. You don't get to avoid free speech by say, ordering people to limit the expressions of discontent to calling an 800 phone number no one monitors.
You never get to say, "The rules say you ain't got no rights here."
Here's the cites you were looking for:
The First Amendment:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Petition_and_assembly
"The right of assembly was originally closely tied to the right to petition. One significant case involving the two rights was United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542 (1875). There, the Supreme Court held that citizens may "assemble for the purpose of petitioning Congress for a redress of grievances." Essentially, it was held that the right to assemble was secondary, while the right to petition was primary. Later cases, however, have expanded the meaning of the right to assembly. Hague v. CIO, 307 U.S. 496 (1939), for instance, refers to the right to assemble for the "communication of views on national questions" and for "disseminating information.""
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
Just build the Great Wall of China and they can't enter your territory!
Anonymous Coward
"I found it ironic that as a service member, I had less freedoms available to me."
You were in service to protect freedoms not to take advantage from them.
"I found it ironic that as a service member, I had less freedoms available to me. The freedom of speech, needing to ask for permission to get married, etc. Throw in the the base clubs weren't allowed to have "offensive" music (and of course the sensitive types wouldn't have the decency to stay home). /sigh. Buy all the liquor, tobacco and bibles you want, but no porn!"
Lack of porn at the BX/PX and boring NCO clubs were in my experience more than offset by the _massive_ partying elsewhere on base in housing and dorms. Stuff not being sold on-base is hardly a freedom restriction. Freedom of speech restrictions on service members are quite modest (see UCMJ for details).
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
If you are stateside, you don't need permission to get married, and you ALWAYS get BAH and BAS (about $2000 a month, depending on rank, cost of living for the locale, etc.)
Overseas is a different deal because space is limited and CI/force protection become issues. But if you are married and your wife stays in the US while you go to Korea, or any other analogous situation where you are separated, you still get the monthly BAH payment to buy an apartment/housing/food/etc.
In case you missed it. Nobody is coerced into anything.
The years of "Go to war or go to jail", and the draft are over.
That's what "100% volunteer force" means.
Maybe you mean "mislead". Coercion implies they were forced.
BZZT!
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Modest, but still there. Besides, I said it was ironic, not the most important thing in life.
Granted, officers had it worse. They're actually prohibited from making inappropriate comments about the President. If nothing else, they had to refrain from repeating the better jokes about Bill Clinton and the Lewinski incidents.
"Common sense will be the death of us all"
:D
"Common sense will be the death of us all"
I was in the service for my own reasons, not to appease those that would dictate them to me. There are many ways to protect American freedoms, military service is not the sole method available.
I find that kind of attitude insulting to the contributions and sacrifices made by service members and their families. In my mind it's made by people who deliberately make things harder for others just because "it's what they signed up for", but certainly would cry to high heaven about it should karma ever repay the sentiment.
"Common sense will be the death of us all"
Oh, you'd see some catholic priests go on a stike if that ever made it into popular books. I know at least one priest that didn't manage to get through a sermon without starting to waver.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
I seriously doubt the Peace Action Network is concerned about "teaching the wrong values..." nor the recruits.
Reminds me of the Left Wing Pinko chickenshxts in the 60's.
"I find that kind of attitude insulting"
OK, I accept your arguments. Next time that the need arises to take a hill we'll vote.
"I find that kind of attitude insulting"
OK, I accept your arguments. Next time that the need to cut benefits, shrink the force and force pork barrel expenditures over needed upgrades we'll vote.
Fixed that for you. Sounds like you're in the service or at least were. The next time you or a somebody you know gets injured because they had crap gear, please think of the lawmakers who force the Pentagon to buy outdated crap because their constituents rely on making old stuff rather than adapting to the demands of the new markets. The demands on the field do require sacrifice, but that attitude is what allows such disgusting spending requirements to be passed.
If you don't agree with that, then cancel your membership with any of the service related lobby groups. Don't visit your buddy in the hospital. Don't attend a Memorial Day service. Don't console the widows or widowers. Don't expect anybody to show up to your funeral. I mean, it is what you signed up for. Why should you be recognized or appreciated for just doing your job?
"Common sense will be the death of us all"
"The next time you or a somebody you know gets injured because they had crap gear, please think of the lawmakers"
Sure that adds quite a lot to your argument. Nah... it adds nothing since it's a strawman.
"Why should you be recognized or appreciated for just doing your job?"
Because it's still a job per choice and it's a nasty job that needs to be done. People tend to appreciate that. Just the same that kind of politicians and lawmakers are "recognized" by their jobs too.
You don't have less "freedoms." What you fail to understand is the government is no different than a standard employer. Any ordinary employer can tell you what you can say about them, how to dress and when to cut your hair. It just so happens they're the government and your employer.
Just because they don't sell the porn you want to see in the BX/PX/NEX doesn't amount to censorship.
Let me guess, a very junior enlisted person, probably at your first duty station or tech school/A school, etc?
Cheers.
"The next time you or a somebody you know gets injured because they had crap gear, please think of the lawmakers"
Sure that adds quite a lot to your argument. Nah... it adds nothing since it's a strawman.
It's as much of a strawman as your comment about voting before storming a hill, or you missed my point. Maybe we're both bored and like arguing with strangers.
"Why should you be recognized or appreciated for just doing your job?"
Because it's still a job per choice and it's a nasty job that needs to be done. People tend to appreciate that. Just the same that kind of politicians and lawmakers are "recognized" by their jobs too.
You definitely missed or ignored the sarcasm there. Some folks do appreciate the job done, some not so much, and some take it for granted. As for politicians... well. I think most are just expected to be corrupt in favor of their voting populace just enough to get re-elected. I don't know about your country, but the US Military's been wanting new equipment, such as planes, for a long time now. They get forced to buy old stuff they wouldn't have ordered themselves. That's not appreciation.
"Common sense will be the death of us all"
Nope. Former Sgt. And I know that the porn that WAS available before I enlisted (when I was a dependent) got removed from AAFES in the name of morals. You can look up the 1996 "Military Honor and Decency Act" for that. Mind you, I didn't call it censorship. There might be a nice coffee discussion there (we can even talk about why Playboy is still sold but not Playgirl). I don't call foul for there not being Wiccan or Santanist chaplins (I knew at least one Muslim Chaplin) since there really weren't that many before. I'm not talking about NDAs or things like having a good work ethic.
For me, and this is still off topic of the slightly limited freedoms, it was a minor chaffing that people who didn't like a certain type of music, or train of thought, would show up to a place and complain rather than go elsewhere. They don't agree? Fine. Never once did I picket the Base Church for promoting the idea that I was going to hell and deserved it, or that I found their hymns offensive. If I had, I would have been told "well, just don't go".
Yet there they were, complaining about stuff other people didn't mind or actually enjoyed.
You downplay how much effect your constitutionally guaranteed freedoms are actually curtailed, and it's pretty tolerable, honestly. But was it no less a surprise when you got that first "you can't do that"? I'm not saying it's the end of the world, but it's a difference from the civilian world, that perhaps very minor, should be acknowledged rather than glossed over. Just admit it's there and I'm fine. Everything else can be debated over a beer for fun.
"Common sense will be the death of us all"
Nope. Former Sgt. And I know that the porn that WAS available before I enlisted (when I was a dependent) got removed from AAFES in the name of morals. You can look up the 1996 "Military Honor and Decency Act" for that. Mind you, I didn't call it censorship. There might be a nice coffee discussion there (we can even talk about why Playboy is still sold but not Playgirl). I don't call foul for there not being Wiccan or Santanist chaplins (I knew at least one Muslim Chaplin) since there really weren't that many before. I'm not talking about NDAs or things like having a good work ethic.
I can't speak for the Army or Marine (not sure which you were) but the AF does have Wiccan chaplains. I don't expect to see a Satanist chaplain in my lifetime. I'm very familiar with the removal of adult magazines from the BX/PX/NEX and I think it's ridiculous however, I don't believe it's any different than working for any other company.
For me, and this is still off topic of the slightly limited freedoms, it was a minor chaffing that people who didn't like a certain type of music, or train of thought, would show up to a place and complain rather than go elsewhere. They don't agree? Fine. Never once did I picket the Base Church for promoting the idea that I was going to hell and deserved it, or that I found their hymns offensive. If I had, I would have been told "well, just don't go".
And this is an American paradox that's not unique to the government. Essentially you experienced the same things that many people experience. This is especially true for those who don't follow our society's norms. I'm not saying it's right, I'm merely saying there's no difference between military and civilian when it comes to these things. Minorities, no matter what type, will have to deal with quirks of the majority.
Yet there they were, complaining about stuff other people didn't mind or actually enjoyed.
Some people like to complain. You see it on "Keep Christ in Christmas" bumper stickers. Is it really a problem to say "Happy Holidays" and be more inclusive? I say Happy Merry ChrismahannuaKwanzica.
You downplay how much effect your constitutionally guaranteed freedoms are actually curtailed, and it's pretty tolerable, honestly. But was it no less a surprise when you got that first "you can't do that"? I'm not saying it's the end of the world, but it's a difference from the civilian world, that perhaps very minor, should be acknowledged rather than glossed over. Just admit it's there and I'm fine. Everything else can be debated over a beer for fun.
I'm not downplaying anything. What I'm saying is your constitutionally guaranteed freedoms aren't being violated. Again I say, your employer, whether government or not, can tell you what to wear, how to cut your hair and what you can say. It just so happens the government was your employer. It doesn't matter whether you're a Sgt. or a Whataburger employee, the rules are effectively the same.
Cheers.
See the above cites. The government cannot say "Here you cannot protest us." The government doesn't get to hide from its citizens. And as far as the rights of landlords, notice how conspicuously absent they are from the Bill of Rights, while the right of people to petition and protest their government is the first order of business...
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
Well, how about this then. Your employer can discipline you for misconduct at work. The military can do so for misconduct done at any time, even if it's not work related (misconduct defined as something against the rules, but not necessarily wrong). The scope of it makes a difference. At least in the civilian world there can be debates regarding whether or not your rights have been violated. That's not always the case under the UCMJ.
:)
Again, not to say that the differences are so huge or noticeable, but they are there. Personally I think adapting things like parents having to show up to parent-teacher conferences would actually be good for the country, but to compel such an act would undoubtedly be seen as interference of a parent's freedom of choice.
It's kinda cool to hear there are Wiccan chaplins now, though. At most there were group leaders from their community on base, but if there are Officers now, interesting. I remember in BMT you could go to s Satanist service, but it was off base.
Anyways, enjoy
"Common sense will be the death of us all"
"It's as much of a strawman as your comment about voting before storming a hill, or you missed my point. Maybe we're both bored and like arguing with strangers."
My case is not one of a strawman. Even Greeks (first inventors of the term "democracy" itself) -surely Romans too, had the figure of the Tyrant for the bad days. On my first quote I was trying to paraphrase Crimson Tide Gene Hackman's phrase: "We're here to defend democracy, not practice it.".
So again: there's a time and a place to use democracy (and/or freedoms) and there's a and a place time to defend it -and usually they are quite different times and places. Military is more of a place in the second category than in the first one -hence my counter "let's vote next time some good guys are to be killed in action". It's not the place nor the time, but it is the thing to be done. What it is a strawman argument is trying to pass this sad but crude reality as that I'm defending that the service is a place where someone (i.e.: a bastardly inclined politican) can abuse someone by saying "well, that's the time and the moment" when it isn't. It is certain that when you volonteer to the army you expose yourself for these kinds of things to happen, but a) that doesn't make it ethical or acceptable and b) when that happens but in the most rare circumnstances what is under scrutiny is my first (albeit implicit) assert: that you are indeed in a country of liberties (or else you were not defending the unexistant).
"As for politicians... well. I think most are just expected to be corrupt in favor of their voting populace just enough to get re-elected."
Here we go into deep waters. It seems a bit ill your choice of adjetives: the "to be corrupt" part is not only out of place but the very basis of representative democracy. Politicians are there to be moved by their voters since they are their representatives. It's true that it would be better that politicians weren't moveable but instead supporters of strong and well-based opinions and then, those whose opinions were more acceptable by the majority being chosen than the other way around, looking what the people seems to desire and then go for it, but -again, democracy, much as capitalism, has its grounds on realities -that people is greedy, than ideals, and that makes it work. If idealism did work, communism or tiranny would be better systems than democracy by far as Plato already stated some 2.500 years ago.
"I don't know about your country, but the US Military's been wanting new equipment, such as planes, for a long time now."
C'mon! If you really think USA military is in such a bad shape please don't try to research how the rest of the world is doing. Planes, you say? I can accept your moan about GI's since they are really in first line of fire and they are the ones eating the worse shit at the expense of their integrity (they *always* are in need of better body armour, ground intelligence, armoured transports... even without bad politicians mooding the waters) but planes!!!??? When was last time USA lost a plane in air-to-air combat or because of bad maintenance? Vietnam?
FYI: I really do like your stances. 1) Even in the military, there is a time and place for using such methods of arbitrary leadership. When I was a supervisor, I basically told my troops to talk to me and let me know their thoughts on things. When the time came, though, they had to jump when I said jump. So, I guess we agree, it's a matter of the circumstance? 2) I'd agree with you about corruption being out of place in a democracy, but that's an ideal. Granted, corruption is not the same as having different goals or ambitions than what you may have voted for. There are cases of out and out corruptions, such as Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich's action. The more cynical of us think his mistake was getting caught. There are murmurings of the mayor of my county being backed by large companies to make decisions which are bad for small businesses. That may just be the folks that didn't agree with her, though. 3) The US Military, and it's equipment, being in bad shape is different than being better than the opponents. Older planes take more time, money and people to maintain. Granted, that's not to say battles are going to be lost soley on that matter, but when it gets down to it, the military buyers would like to decide what their budget goes towards.
http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,135018,00.html
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123089011
Some links, as requested. I hope they match what we're talking about enough for you.
"Common sense will be the death of us all"
"FYI: I really do like your stances."
Well, it seems that we are now more on petty details than deep qualitative differences (and that's expected or else the conversation wouldn't last that long).
"When I was a supervisor, I basically told my troops to talk to me and let me know their thoughts on things. When the time came, though, they had to jump when I said jump."
My point was just the second part (there's a time to jump when the boss says "jump") but the fact of the matter is I behave exactly the same (or at least, that I tried): I used to tell it on a somehow cynical -but I meant it seriously, way: please, let me know everything you think may be relevant and tell me your opinion and I'll take it all into consideration. Then, of course, you'll do exactly as I say, with no recourse, even if from time to time my unrecourseable order will be "do it your way" (and that's valid only on non-action days: if we are in a hurry and it'll be me the one that decide if we are in a hurry, you'll do as I say and we will have the conversation later). All in all, it usually worked.
"2) I'd agree with you about corruption being out of place in a democracy, but that's an ideal."
Of course you know the famouse cite -was it from Franklin? the price of liberty is perennial awareness, or something as such. We are living -most of us, first world citizens I mean, on quite calm times so we tend to forget that grieve is the most withstanding force, for the good (that's the moving force of capitalism) and for the bad too (that's the basis of all corruption) the fact that we don't have to strive for our very life -at least not too often, doesn't mean we can forget we still need to fight -against the bad face of greed, against corruption, against powerful staments, not only government but everyone of them, and its natural tendence to abuse, etc.
"3) The US Military, and it's equipment, being in bad shape is different than being better than the opponents."
Probably you are right, but I think it's still basically irrelevant: good enough is good enough. Of course Roman Empire's generals would be grateful if some Thunderbolts fully equiped were time-transported to their days, but the qualitative effects would be nihil: Roman Empire was the superpower of its days with or without A-10s, and A-10s are quite expensive, even without considering time-machine related costs.
"Older planes take more time, money and people to maintain."
Than what? If your point is that they are more expensive than the demonstrable alternatives, then you have a case; if the point is that a current 30-year-old Thunderbolt has higher maintenance costs than ten years ago but still is cheaper than buying new planes, then you don't have a case.
"http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,135018,00.html
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123089011
Some links, as requested."
Mixed feelings. Of course the part on your fist link about "I don't want to write a letter, or have my successor write a letter, 'Dear Mr. and Mrs. Smith, your son or daughter are dead because the wing fell off on takeoff. We knew it was going to fall off, we just didn't know when.'" is undebatable but everything else it is.
So maintaing 20-year-old planes is more expensive than maintaining 10-year-old planes? What a surprise! That equipment that see hard real action suffer more than the one used on practices? Are you joking me?
But what's the point? This is not the point: the point is knowing if mantaining current 20-year-old planes is more or less expensive than buying new ones *now* (at an stated cost of 400 billion). And then, your first link miserably fails at stating anything about this (even more: it covers its ass by showing opinions on both directions).
Regarding your second link, quite more of the same: first you have a high rank official telling he wants more and better toys (what a surprise!) against an unstated future menace
Let's just jump to #3. Yes, the US has some of the best toys in the world. It could be better, but then again, it could be worse. Personally, I think most groups don't seriously consider doing a stand up and fight battle with modern military forces anymore. It's just suicidal, so, yeah. I can agree with you on that. Of course, suicidal attackers are harder to defend against, so that's why the tactic is used. Small scale, relatively low tech and harder to predict. While upgraded/new systems are good, I think a lot of time, effort and money needs to be put into curbing recruitment into these organizations. That probably would be of greater benefit to the populations of the world and to the bigger countries.
The quote you gave was good, but you might like "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" too. Or that's at least how the wiki has it quoted.
Enjoy your weekend.
"Common sense will be the death of us all"