McDonalds Free Wi-Fi Users Soak Up Seating

bfire writes "McDonalds has earmarked potential changes to seating plans in some restaurants to prevent free Wi-Fi users from monopolizing seating, particularly in peak periods. The availability of Wi-Fi means people are now spending 35 minutes in McDonalds — rather than the average ten minutes that patrons used to spend eating there. But it appears not everyone is happy with the increased 'stickiness' of customers, with some licensees in Australia reporting that Wi-Fi users aren't turning over seats fast enough. The restaurant chain is considering options including space demarcation to deal with the problem."

Comments

Solution: Block Slashdot

[LaZZaR]

Because we all know they are just sitting there waiting to get first post.

Oh wait...

Re:Solution: Block Slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

What kind of people visit a maccyDs or coffee shop to sit around with wifi? THE WHOLE POINT OF FAST FOOD IS TO BE FAST!!!!! Go visit the library instead, or go home, you poser.

Re:Solution: Block Slashdot

[Dan541]

Losers?

Re:Solution: Block Slashdot

[LKM]

I go to McDo if I'm hungry because it's cheap, convenient, and reasonably healthy if you choose the right stuff. Sometimes I'm in a hurry, sometimes I'm not.

Re:Solution: Block Slashdot

[pthor1231]

Why would I go to the public library when I have a wifi enabled laptop, and the mcdonalds with free wifi is much much closer?

Re:Solution: Block Slashdot

[Sponge Bath]

Fat losers with special sauce in their keyboards.

Re:Solution: Block Slashdot

[DrgnDancer]

And has food and drink. Granted I'm a snob and prefer the food and drink at a good coffee shop, but the same theory applies. If I've got an hour to kill and have my laptop (or wifi phone for that matter) why not go get a milkshake or lunch or whatever and use the service provided. Generally speaking I do this when I'm traveling, or don't have enough time to really get home and do anything, but I've gone out to chill in the coffeehouse and drink a latte with my laptop a few times. They have nice chairs.

Re:Solution: Block Slashdot

[jcrousedotcom]

Why does everything have center around pr0n?! ;)

Re:Solution: Block Slashdot

[jseale]

and some of these McD's have television in them nowadays, especially the ones on/near busy thoroughfares. Some other locations have even tried putting in lounge chairs where you can sit and enjoy your coffee. Hell! Why not turn these into hotels, not that I oblige any of this.

Coffee

[sys.stdout.write]

I'd suggest McDonalds try dumping coffee on their laps, but they'd probably get sued for millions of dollars.

HEYO!

Re:Coffee

[fractoid]

Or a slightly less pathological solution which would nevertheless fix the issue: Simply record MAC addresses and after 15 minutes (or whatever) of use, ban the address for a couple of hours. Sure, a few of us will spoof MAC addresses until we find an unbanned one but the vast majority (and it's the vast majority's asses that are causing the problem) will just mooch off to a different Maccas.

Re:Coffee

[Mr. Freeman]

Yeah, that'll go over really well. "Excuse me, your Internets are broken" 10 times a minute.

Re:Coffee

[fractoid]

They offer wireless internet as an incentive for people to use their stores. People are staying too long. Limiting the time allowed for the wireless internet is the obvious solution. Maybe a full cut-off would be too annoying, but at least cap it at 64kbps after half an hour.

Re:Coffee

[pete6677]

I suggest the United States McDonalds keep doing what they already do: make the store environment resemble that of a public bathroom as much as possible so as to make it miserable to linger around in. Allow creepy and smelly homeless people to linger around the place for added ambiance. Overuse of the wifi will then be the least of their problems.

Re:Coffee

[poetmatt]

How is that a change?

Re:Coffee

[xp]

Or make the wifi users eat McDonalds food. That'll kill them off quickly, freeing up all those valuable seats.
--
Slow Poke

Re:Coffee

[master5o1]

It could also refer all pages to one of those Hot Spot login pages that most have to first enable the internet. I would assume than it would be safer to not refer SSL ones to their as to allow them to finish what ever it is in SSL... But then that's an awesome loophole for SSL proxies, etc.

Re:Coffee

[ben2umbc]

Can't I have free wifi at KFC? I want it to go with my delicious baked chicken! No more sticky fingers!

Re:Coffee

[clickety6]

...must resist....must resist.... gah! temptation is too strong...

Surely you mean Big MAC addresses?

Re:Coffee

[fractoid]

*headplonk at me not thinking of that one* lol's off to you, sir!

I guess you could say that after 20 minutes you need to buy another MAC muffin? ;)

Re:Coffee

[Anonymous Coward]

They could simply stop sending the client webpages and start sending "Your time is up, thank you for eating at McDonald's! =D" pages after 15 minutes.

Re:Coffee

[magarity]

Sure, as long as the KFC is across the street from a McD.

Re:Coffee

[magarity]

There are plenty of off the shelf wifi systems that can print out an access code good for x minutes. Just make EVERY receipt for over an arbitrary amount, say $5, have a code good for 20 minutes. Want more? Buy another $5 worth of stuff (or fish unused receipts out of the trash).

This is a reasonably simple system that most anyone can understand and explain, even the McD employee at the register.

Re:Coffee

[Anonymous Coward]

So, you're saying creepy and smelly homeless people are less human than the rest of us, and should be shipped off somewhere where they won't offend our delicate sensibilities?

Homeless and poor people often go to a McDonalds, because it's a a single serving (nowhere to store the leftovers), and it's hot, reasonably good food, cheap. They linger there for warmth, for restroom access, because their pride tells them they paid money, so they're allowed to be there, and a host of other reasons too. Homeless people are people. Most of them have some sort of mental illness and with proper treatment could become productive members of society again, but with no treatment, they end up self medicating with drugs and alcohol, exacerbating the financial and psychological problems that led to them being homeless in the first place.

I'm one of the lucky ones. I never got caught up in self medicating with drugs and alcohol, so when circumstances changed slightly, I was able to leverage that to get out of homelessness, and eventually into running and owning my own business. But I spent enough time homeless to know what it's like. They are people.

Re:Coffee

[Bert64]

Give them longer time during quiet periods too, if noone else wants the seats then keeping them full is better than leaving them empty, and someone who's sitting around trolling slashdot is more likely to want a drink or snack.

Re:Coffee

[PeeAitchPee]

I suggest the United States McDonalds keep doing what they already do: make the store environment resemble that of a public LIBRARY

There, fixed that for you.

Re:Coffee

[midicase]

It guess it's not already enough that the interior decoration is annoying. Construction orange and bright yellow under bright lights. It's already designed to not keep people around. Could they make it any more unpalatable?

Re:Coffee

[ukyoCE]

I guess you've never tried to use wireless internet at public places before?

They wouldn't randomly block your mac entirely - they would start serving you a "You've been here too long, get lost" webpage regardless of what address you tried to visit.

Or perhaps "please enter your receipt number to connect for another 15 minutes".

Re:Coffee

[pak9rabid]

Or a slightly less pathological solution which would nevertheless fix the issue: Simply record MAC addresses and after 15 minutes (or whatever) of use, ban the address for a couple of hours. Sure, a few of us will spoof MAC addresses until we find an unbanned one but the vast majority (and it's the vast majority's asses that are causing the problem) will just mooch off to a different Maccas.

Having worked for the company that runs McDonalds wifi networks, they most certainly do record the MAC addresses of everyone that uses their wifi network. This is how it keeps track of who's allowed through their firewall and who's not. They just need to decrease their connection time from 2 hours if they're really concerned about this.

Re:Coffee

[PeeAitchPee]

That may be so, but most mentally ill homeless people also refuse the very treatments that would make them "productive members of society again." Also, McDonalds' other paying customers deserve to eat in a place which doesn't smell of unwashed people and urine, or features mentally folks having a deep discussion with the soda fountain. That's just good business sense -- if it happens enough, they'll take their money elsewhere. Yes, the homeless are people, but that doesn't give them the right to inflict their condition on others. If I stunk because I shit myself, or I chose not to use deoderant, are you seriously telling me it wouldn't bother you in the least if I sat immediately behind you on a hot day while you were eating your Big Mac and struck up a loud, spirited conversation with the napkin dispenser? Come on.

Re:Coffee

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, homeless people are full of pride in everything they do. Stop watching so much TV.

It isn't luck that keeps you from being homeless. Stop going to work, see if your luck holds out. Smoke a crack rock, see how that goes. Start drining as soon as you wake up. It ain't luck that keeps you from doing those things.

Re:Coffee

[SCPRedMage]

If I recall correctly, McDonald's has a deal with Nintendo so that people can play their DS's online at their stores. Since a DS can't get past the whole "captive portal" thing, that would kinda be a deal breaker...

Re:Coffee

[hmar]

But most of us go in there for "fast" food. The last thing I want is to sit and wait to order because some idiot is asking for instructions on how to use the wi-fi.

Re:Coffee

[yiantsbro]

Or even better send every other page as advertisement rather than outright "time is up". Send every even page as "You've been browsing a while, you must be hungry, have .25 off of a large order of fries"

Re:Coffee

[Huh?]

I wouldn't care. That napkin dispenser is a whore anyway!

Re:Coffee

[misexistentialist]

Most of them are terminally mentally ill. So either you provide resources to feed them elsewhere, exterminate them, or tolerate them in public. Since you sound like one of the people who bitch about "entitlement" programs and BMW-driving schizophrenic welfare-queens, I'm guessing you'll choose option 2.

Re:Coffee

[eleuthero]

If I recall correctly, McDonald's has a deal with Nintendo so that people can play their DS's online at their stores. Since a DS can't get past the whole "captive portal" thing, that would kinda be a deal breaker...

McD's does have a captive portal (they have a deal with ATT which I have used on numerous occasions) at least at some locations. The DS issue is easily remedied by coding for the device accessing the system - not sure what browser base the DS uses, but I would assume that if you mimic the DS system you will suddenly find the McD's wifi is a lot more open.

Re:Coffee

[eleuthero]

Where do you live that the libraries are so bad off that they resemble McDonald's restaurants and bathrooms?

Re:Coffee

[eleuthero]

No, but in my area, at least, they have made it more--most of them have dark wood paneling with fake brass and some nice dark green paint for accents. The remodel occurred to several in the area right about the time McD's had its first posted loss in 60 or so years.

Re:Coffee

[magarity]

Anything like that sounds good at first but it adds to the complexity. Remember to KISS when dealing with the general public (keep it simple, stupid).

Re:Coffee

[Lucractius]

By default the DS doesn't have a browser. There is a browser software cartridge that opera made for the DS and they have fixed the missing browser issue with the DSi by bundling a browser built into it. But the significantly larger, existing userbase will be using a DS without a browser that cannot get to the captive portal.

Re:Coffee

[Khyber]

Not everything is as cut and dry as you make it sound.

I'm having problems finding work because of a drunk shithead that crushed the right side of my body back in 2007. Most companies that would hire me require the ability to lift 50 pounds, I'm on restriction to 20. I can't even get a job doing laptop repair because they need a minimum 25 pounds.

Let's not even get into the fact I'm a medical marijuana user with a card - Asshole Federal Judges in Asshole Federal Courts decided that companies apparently know more than a fucking doctor and don't have to hire people that have legit medical uses for pot, backed by a doctor's recommendation, when they fail that mandatory drug test. Yet someone loaded up on Xanax and Oxycontin can show their prescriptions and get hired.

Not everybody is homeless by choice and inaction. Some are close to being forced into homelessness because of the laws and court cases bought out by corporate lobbyists and lawyers.

And honestly, if I'm forced into homelessness due to this crap, I'm going to start a killing spree. Starting with the CEOs of every corporation I can get to. I'll take the three hots and a cot that will be provided to me, as payment for the service I perform to the public. I won't even consider it as a punishment. Survival is first priority.

Re:Coffee

[Joey Vegetables]

I am sorry that you were screwed over. But please assign the blame where it belongs. The drunk shithead and the asshole federal courts/judges. They had the responsibility not to harm you, but chose to ignore than responsibility and harm you anyway. You probably could not punish those bastards enough even if you tried, and I would not lose any sleep if you did.

But, disabled or not, no one has the DUTY to employ you against their will. If you wish to be employed, then you need to do the same thing everyone else must do, again whether disabled or not: find something you can do well, that other people would be willing to pay you to do. It may not be easy, but it is possible.

And, before you go on your "killing spree" please consider that these CEOs of these corporations are NOT responsible for what you are going through. The drunk shithead is. However, the great majority of them ARE directly and personally responsible for producing and distributing every product and every service that you and I and everyone else needs in order to survive and to live with any semblance of comfort. While a number of them are guilty of crimes of one sort or another, and should be held accountable, not one has been formally charged, tried, and convicted. You do NOT have the right to be their prosecutor, judge, jury, and executioner. You do NOT have all the facts you would need even to decide whether they should be charged. I feel bad for your suffering, but you would inflict even greater suffering on others, without any opportunity for them to defend themselves, and without any way of ensuring that the punishment you would mete out would actually fit the crime, or would actually make society better. If even 1% of us thought or acted the way you say you would, they would end up killing nearly everyone on the planet, and making every one of the living envy every one of the dead.

Re:Coffee

[pete6677]

In other words, self-destructive behaviors have a lot to do with a person being homeless. Yes, I'd definitely agree with that.

Re:Coffee

[Khyber]

"And, before you go on your "killing spree" please consider that these CEOs of these corporations are NOT responsible for what you are going through."

That is not entirely correct. I tried for a job at Rite-Aid - but as a Medical Marijuana user they won't hire me. Well, go figure they were one of the companies that begged/bribed the supreme court to make it where they didn't have to abide by a doctor's prescription if they didn't want to. Their lawyers even called me up to specifically tell me that after I had complained to their HR department.

So laying the blame on those companies seems pretty justified to me.

"You do NOT have the right to be their prosecutor, judge, jury, and executioner."

When they've already bought the laws that effectively allow them to act as such, any and all action taken against them is fair and deserved. I am defending myself by any means necessary after all in light of the government's refusal to work for the people as they were conscripted to do.

Simple Solution

[cashman73]

Go to Panera Bread. They have free wi-fi there, too. The food is quite a bit better, and healthier, than all that fried and preprocessed crap that McDonald's dishes out,...

Re:Simple Solution

[Anonymous Coward]

And they employ sock puppets to promote their company on slashdot, too!

Re:Simple Solution

[sys.stdout.write]

Not all of us can afford arugula like you and our president ;-)

Re:Simple Solution

[Pinckney]

Go to Panera Bread. They have free wi-fi there, too. The food is quite a bit better, and healthier, than all that fried and preprocessed crap that McDonald's dishes out,...

How do you suggest Panera Bread handle it when their seats start getting filled-up by people using the Wi-Fi?

Your solution has nothing to do with the problem of the article.

Re:Simple Solution

[eln]

Panera Bread has 1,230 locations in 40 states. McDonald's has more than 31,000 in all 50 states and tons of other countries. Panera Bread sells high quality but overpriced food, while McDonald's sells low to middling quality food super cheap. They are not competing in the same segment at all.

So do you work for Panera Bread or are you a franchisee?

Re:Simple Solution

[MrMista_B]

That's a bad solution. First of all, I've never heard of Panera Bread, and there's definately not one local to me. Choices for free wifi are basically the library, a couple coffee places, or McDonalds.

Re:Simple Solution

[Planesdragon]

The food is quite a bit better, and healthier, than all that fried and preprocessed crap that McDonald's dishes out,...

"Better" is subjective, but I doubt you'll find it especially healthier. (Go ahead. Ask for their nutritional guidelines -- you know, the kind that are on every @#$!ing McDonald's wall.)

Whether you like fried and preprocessed crap or BAKED and preprocessed crap is a matter of taste.

Re:Simple Solution

[eln]

Man, you weren't kidding. Compare Panera Bread sandwiches (page 4 of the PDF), with McDonald's sandwiches (select sandwiches from the drop down). The highest calorie sandwich from McDonald's is 740 calories. The highest calorie Panera Bread sandwich is the Full Chipotle Chicken on Artisan French at 1070 calories. Panera Bread has no fewer than 16 sandwiches that exceed the calories of the Double Quarter Pounder.

I thought McDonald's food was unhealthy, but damn Panera Bread's stuff is even worse! Panera Bread's stuff is also loaded with sodium, even more so in many cases than the notoriously sodium-heavy McDonald's fare. In fact, their highest sodium sandwich has more than twice the sodium as McDonald's highest sodium sandwich! Trying to pass off Panera Bread as a "healthier alternative" seems like a pretty irresponsible thing to do.

Re:Simple Solution

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

There is more to a meal than the list of nutrients.
If you haven't read this excerpt from Fast Food Nation yet, you should.

While McDonalds is packed full of those designer chemicals, presumably Panera is not.

Re:Simple solution

[Corbets]

Starbucks in Switzerland does something like this. It's free wireless, not even a purchase required: all you have to do is go to the counter and ask for an access card. However, that access card expires 30 minutes after activation, and to keep going, you have to request another.

I'm not sure that would work back in America; it plays off people's shame and only works if they don't keep asking for cards. However, it seems to work well here.

Re:Simple Solution

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Go to Panera Bread. They have free wi-fi there, too. The food is quite a bit better, and healthier, than all that fried and preprocessed crap that McDonald's dishes out,...

As cheap and as quick?

Re:Simple Solution

[MichaelSmith]

My wife has an architecture business. One of her customers (a cafe owner) treated us to a free meal. When we sat down my wife shifted in her seat and congratulated the owner on the uncomfortable seats. Apparently he had gone through a few iterations on seats to make sure that people didn't stay too long.

I worked with him for a bit on a proposal for wifi for customers, but I don't think it would have been good for them in retrospect.

Re:Simple Solution

[svunt]

Really valid for the AUSTRALIAN restaurants the article is about. Only 12,000km to he nearest outlet!

Re:Simple Solution

[Mr. Freeman]

Of course, they're about 3 times more expensive too.

Re:Simple Solution

[vux984]

I thought McDonald's food was unhealthy, but damn Panera Bread's stuff is even worse!

At McD's virtually everyone orders a 'meal' vs a 'sandwich'. So you can tack on a Medium or Large fries to virtually every order... and a soft drink. That will bump your average McEncounter up a couple notches.

I've never been to a Panera Bread, but the various sandwich cafe's around here do a lot of sandwich-only orders; or sandwich + coffee or sandwich + bottled water / juice.

In fact, if you go to McD's and order just a water, its not good for you; but all things considered, its not all that bad either compared to anywhere else.

Re:Simple Solution

[QuantumG]

Oh. My. God. You mean they make food out of chemicals? That's bad. That's really bad.

No, but seriously, Eric Schlosser is an uneducated hippie. Oh, but he studied History at Princeton.. woo..

McDonald's fries now come from huge manufacturing plants that can peel, slice, cook, and freeze two million pounds of potatoes a day. [..] A McDonald's french fry is one of countless foods whose flavor is just a component in a complex manufacturing process. The look and the taste of what we eat now are frequently deceiving -- by design.

Dum da dah!!! Yes, that's right folks, McDonald's food is manufactured. That's a dirty word. Only bad, terrible things come out of factories.. like child labor. If food is not made in small quantities by your Mom then it has to be bad for you. It has to be.

Everywhere I looked, I saw famous, widely advertised products sitting on laboratory desks and tables. The beverage lab was full of brightly colored liquids in clear bottles. It comes up with flavors for popular soft drinks, sports drinks, bottled teas, and wine coolers, for all-natural juice drinks, organic soy drinks, beers, and malt liquors. In one pilot kitchen I saw a dapper food technologist, a middle-aged man with an elegant tie beneath his crisp lab coat, carefully preparing a batch of cookies with white frosting and pink-and-white sprinkles. In another pilot kitchen I saw a pizza oven, a grill, a milk-shake machine, and a french fryer identical to those I'd seen at innumerable fast-food restaurants.

That's right folks. Food technologists (scientists!) are responsible for the tastes in all these manufactured foods. They're making stuff taste good.. evil bastards!

It also makes the smells of household products such as deodorant, dishwashing detergent, bath soap, shampoo, furniture polish, and floor wax. All these aromas are made through essentially the same process: the manipulation of volatile chemicals. The basic science behind the scent of your shaving cream is the same as that governing the flavor of your TV dinner.

Yes, he is implying that you're eating deodorant and dishwashing detergent and floor wax. No. He didn't actually say that shaving cream is in your TV dinner, but he wants you to think about it.

A typical artificial strawberry flavor, like the kind found in a Burger King strawberry milk shake, contains the following ingredients: amyl acetate, amyl butyrate, amyl valerate, anethol, anisyl formate, benzyl acetate, benzyl isobutyrate, butyric acid, cinnamyl isobutyrate, cinnamyl valerate, cognac essential oil, diacetyl, dipropyl ketone, ethyl acetate, ethyl amyl ketone, ethyl butyrate, ethyl cinnamate, ethyl heptanoate, ethyl heptylate, ethyl lactate, ethyl methylphenylglycidate, ethyl nitrate, ethyl propionate, ethyl valerate, heliotropin, hydroxyphenyl-2-butanone (10 percent solution in alcohol), a-ionone, isobutyl anthranilate, isobutyl butyrate, lemon essential oil, maltol, 4-methylacetophenone, methyl anthranilate, methyl benzoate, methyl cinnamate, methyl heptine carbonate, methyl naphthyl ketone, methyl salicylate, mint essential oil, neroli essential oil, nerolin, neryl isobutyrate, orris butter, phenethyl alcohol, rose, rum ether, g-undecalactone, vanillin, and solvent.

Scary words!!! Scary words!!! The article doesn't mention that "natural" flavors don't come with lists of ingredients.. you simply don't know what's in them. But here's a hint, if "natural strawberry flavoring" was made from strawberries, they would just list "strawberries" as an ingredient.

THE small and elite group of scientists who create most of the flavor in most of the food now consumed in the United States are called "flavorists." They draw on a number of disciplines in their work: biology, psychology, physiology, and organic chemistry.

These are all things you don't understand, and he used

Re:Simple Solution

[OrangeTide]

Panera does not appear to carry and fried foods, so why would I go there?

There is one near my work and it's one of those places that nobody has strong feelings against (or for) so we end up eating there a lot. But spending $200/mo on $10+ lunches when it's basically just a sandwich does not appeal to me.

Re:Simple Solution

[icannotthinkofaname]

Oh. My. God. You mean they make food out of chemicals?

Yes. It's worked for thousands of years, and I bet chemicals could keep our bodies in tip-top shape for a few more centuries (if we choose to use them wisely). After all, no one has yet had any better ideas.

I'd very much like someone to come up with a method of making foods from non-chemicals, and see how it works out.

Re:Simple Solution

[jrhawk42]

Looking at nutritional values Panera isn't healthier than McDonalds. They may have a few healthy alternatives, and give the image that their food is healthier, but it's just as bad if not worse in a few cases.

Re:Simple Solution

[nEoN nOoDlE]

It also has to do with quantity. McDonald's keeps their prices so low by not giving you that much food (and of course through sheer volume). Even the Big Mac is half the size of a burger you get at a sit-down chain like Applebee's, but McDonald's gets the bad rap for unhealthy food. The Sandwiches in Panera, and pretty much any restaurant, are double the calories than McDonald's because they're double the size (and triple the price).

Re:Simple Solution

[norkakn]

One of my good friends is a food scientist. She has her doctorate in it, and works in the field. She cooks almost all of her own food, and will rarely eat processed food, and never fast food.

It isn't just hippies.

Re:Simple Solution

[QuantumG]

umm.. I said he was a hippie because he likes to imply that your good friend is the devil.

Try to keep up.

Re:Simple Solution

[Nazlfrag]

Perhaps they could pat themselves on the back for attracting more people to their business perhaps, like McDonalds should be doing? Really, they put in free wifi to attract customers then complain that it attracts customers. Why not just scrap the wifi and look at your business walk out the door and down the road to the other guy with wifi and a crappy sandwich.

Re:Simple Solution

[Jimmy_B]

I checked the sites you linked, and the McDonald's sandwich you refer to is 9.8oz, while the Panera sandwich you refer to is 14.5oz; they're both about 75 cal/oz. Comparing different serving sizes without mentioning that they're different is dishonest.

Re:Simple Solution

[dryeo]

The real question for some of us is, are they kid friendly?
I spent quite a few years going to McDonald's because they were kid friendly. The nice restaurants I went to before becoming a parent were nice, but they weren't the kind of place that you could feel comfortable with a 2 year old. This is the big selling point of McDonald's, you can have a hyper kid there and not feel guilty for disturbing the next table.

Re:Simple Solution

[lena_10326]

The standard order at Panera is sandwich, coke, and potato chips. Essentially the same item wise--cept Panera gives u a pickle wedge.

Re:Simple Solution

[prashc]

Healthier than McDonald, Yes. However check yourself if it is really healthy for you: http://www.panerabread.com/pdf/nutr-guide.pdf

Re:Simple Solution

[shutdown -p now]

Your solution has nothing to do with the problem of the article.

Au contraire! The problem of the article is that McDonalds has too many people who sit around too long using WiFi. GP suggests that those people simply move elsewhere, thus solving McDonalds' problem.

Panera Bread... well, that's a different problem now, right? ~

Re:Simple Solution

[maxwell demon]

Of course, uncomfortable seats would not just make me stay as little as possible, but also to not come again if I can avoid it. Yes, that means I won't occupy seats any more, but I'll also not buy food from them any more.

Re:Simple Solution

[gerglion]

I think that before that, The Omnivores Dilemma and In Defense of Food should be read. Also, watch Super Size Me. I can honestly say that I don't like the idea of ingesting chemicals that are designed to fool my sense of taste, something that has been honed over thousands of years to identify food my body needs...

Re:Simple Solution

[pan_sapiens]

The article is primarily about the situation in Australia. There are no Panera Bread outlets in Australia, so irrespective of the food quality (or lack thereof), this just isn't an option.

Re:Simple Solution

[Joe Tie.]

I haven't rad defense of food, but super size me is a giant walking logical fallacy and omnivores dilemma is filled with pseudo-science.

Re:Simple Solution

[MichaelSmith]

Of course, uncomfortable seats would not just make me stay as little as possible, but also to not come again if I can avoid it. Yes, that means I won't occupy seats any more, but I'll also not buy food from them any more.

Balance is the key. Not too good, not too bad.

Re:Simple Solution

[h4rm0ny]

This is the big selling point of McDonald's, you can have a hyper kid there and not feel guilty for disturbing the next table.

Of course they have to be - any kid you feed McDonald's food to on a regular basis is going to be hyper and ADD. ;)

But on a related note, many parents hate the way McDonald's by-passes them and markets directly to their kids. I have friends who have had small children who barely set foot in a McDonald's until their seven year olds started begging to be taken there. There's something wrong with that. Oh yes - it's the manipulation of children to drive your business. >:(

Re:Simple Solution

[Aceticon]

In my experience, kids are the only group of people McDonald's is friendly for.

I work on the trading floor in an Investment Bank at the moment and the level of noise around here is way smaller than in your average McDonald's store.

I suppose if you actually like shouting across the table to make yourself heard, then McDonald's is great.

Re:Simple Solution

[h4rm0ny]

cept Panera gives u a pickle wedge.

That... sounds painful. =:(

Re:Simple Solution

[wvmarle]

This may actually be a good solution: they say a WiFi customer keeps a seat occupied for 35 mins while other customers do so only 10 mins. So they have less customers, hence less turnover, per seat.

As long as the seats are not all occupied, the extra WiFi users may add to their business, as they only occupy extra seats. However when all seats are occupied other customers may turn around and go to a competitor instead because they can not find an empty seat, and they are losing business.

More prudent in such a case would be to limit free WiFi either in duration (15 mins per connection/MAC address), or to certain periods of time, say not available from 12 to 2 (lunch time).

Re:Simple Solution

[zwei2stein]

See? They care about shashdotters thaaat much!

Re:Simple Solution

[clickety6]

Have you seen MacDonalds' customers? Most of them bring extra seat padding with them! You'd need to have seats with 6 inch nails hammered upwards through the seat in order to penetrate the comfy cushions of flab...

Re:Simple Solution

[ChimneysCantTalk]

Reverse psychology, I see...

Re:Simple Solution

[m0biusAce]

It may be dishonest, but it is still correct. You give someone a larger serving size, they are still going to finish it. End result, someone at panera bread might consume the same amount of calories (sandwich, chips, soda) as someone at mcdonands (sandwich, fries, soda).

Re:Simple Solution

[omnichad]

Not a pickle wedgie.

Re:Simple solution

[wvmarle]

I think having to go to the counter every 30 mins gets old quickly for the customer. It is irritating. This way it's great for a normal session (I can imagine very much using such a service when on business trip to read e-mail and reply some urgent matters, 30 mins is usually enough for that - otherwise just get a second ticket to finish your work), but not for WiFi camping in that shop for hours.

This sounds like a creative and smart solution to me. And I am not surprised it works very well.

Re:Simple Solution

[TheVelvetFlamebait]

Sold!

Re:Simple Solution

[FromellaSlob]

What I want to know is, why don't these morons put their money where their mouths are and stop consuming any chemicals themselves? It would do the world a favor.

Re:Simple Solution

[jonadab]

Yeah, but you have to drive an hour to get to the nearest Panera from here; whereas, predictably, there's a McDonald's within three blocks (and a Wendy's three blocks the other direction). Though, if they have an access point at the McD's, I'm not aware of it. Aside from the completely free public wireless access point at the public library, the only other publicly available access point in town that I'm aware of is at that little joint on the square called Pop's Sweet Shop or something like that -- which, come to think of it, has been there for a couple of years now, so by my reckoning it'll probably go out of business soon.

Downtown merchants don't tend to last real long around here, for whatever reason, although there are a couple of exceptions; unaccountably, KC's aquaworld, a pet store specializing in fish, hasn't budged the entire time I've lived in Galion. Wendy's could technically be considered to be in the downtown district and hasn't shown any signs of financial distress either, although they have a real parking lot, not just the on-street parking that most of the downtown merchants have to make to with, so that may be part of the difference, and of course they're a major-chain franchise also.

McDonald's is, of course, in a much better location on the west side of town. You never see a McDonald's restaurant in a bad location. In Galion, there's a grand total of five state routes, and you can see the front of McDonald's from all five of them. For bonus points, they also have great parking and are directly in front of the most popular grocery store in town, and you can't get to the second-most-popular one (from most places in town) without driving past them. Oh, yeah, and just in case that wasn't enough, the west side of town also has the higher average per-capita income, and due to a combination of Heise Park and some winding residential roads on the south side, there's only one good way over from the west side to the rest of town, or vice versa; the people who live in the three ritziest developments can't get to the rest of Galion without driving past (well, less than a block from) McDonald's.

How did we get on this subject? Oh, yeah, wireless access. To my knowledge, McD's in Galion doesn't even offer it. As for Panera Bread, you'd have to drive to Columbus (well, Westerville anyway) to find one of those.

Re:Simple Solution

[jonadab]

Honestly, McDonald's doesn't really need the WiFi to attract customers. They have one of the most pervasive advertising campaigns known to humanity (and I don't just mean television, but everything: tv, radio, internet, local newspapers, pitchers of orange punch at little league games and family reunions, every sporting event up to and including the Olympics, billboards on every highway in North America, ...) and also they somehow manage to position their restaurants so that they are almost always ON THE WAY to wherever you are going, especially if you're in a hurry. And they sign all the most lucratively popular toy and movie and tv character promotions, not to mention that periodic Monopoly thing, which *really* gets the customers coming back, for reasons I do not entirely understand.

On the other hand, I also don't see what the big deal is with people sticking around too long in the dining room. 80% of their business is drive-through anyway, and 90% is breakfast and lunch, when people are in a hurry. McDonald's does more business between 11:30 and 12:30 than they do from 2pm to closing. Their dining rooms typically sit empty in the evenings, when people would have time to sit around.

Re:Simple Solution

[smchris]

You know it _is_ possible he was just suggesting a pleasant alternative. Yes, I have one McDonalds several blocks closer, but, living in a metro, I have a Panera within a couple miles in two directions. And one of those is our choice by a wide, wide margin of pleasantness on several parameters.

Re:Simple Solution

[jonnycando]

Go to Panera Bread. They have free wi-fi there, too. The food is quite a bit better, and healthier, than all that fried and preprocessed crap that McDonald's dishes out,...

And they don't seem to mind if I sit there for 30 minutes......

Re:Simple Solution

[Spazztastic]

But spending $200/mo on $10+ lunches when it's basically just a sandwich does not appeal to me.

So pack a lunch instead of eating out. You'll save a LOT of money.

Re:Simple Solution

[__aarzwb9394]

No sir,

You used the word hippie to imply that Schlosser's concerns are at best misguided, and the rest of your post was intended to discredit his arguments.

Please don't be so disingenuous

IIRC Schlosser does point out the weakness of "natural is always better" thinking, he gives the example of almond flavouring. The natural flavour contains very small amounts of cyanide, the artificial one doesn't. However the natural flavour commands a higher price because it is "natural" and therefore better.

The point about the artificial ingredients in fast food is that they are there to minimise the costs of production, thus allowing companies to drive down prices. They do this because their customers are very, very price sensitive. Many people, including myself, believe that this demand for the lowest possible priced food is misguided and leads us to eat unnecessarily large quantities of unhealthy food. Thus making many of us unhealthy, and probably costing us more in the long run.

Re:Simple Solution

[sorak]

And they employ sock puppets to promote their company on slashdot, too!

Food, wi-fi, AND a puppet show? Man, I am never leaving this place!

Re:Simple Solution

[hal2814]

Have they been remodeling the McDonalds in your area? They have in ours. They're completely demolishing and rebuilding them. You know what is missing from the new ones? Playgrounds. 4 McDonalds in our area have lost their playgrounds in the past two or three years. IMHO, McDonalds is kid-friendly no more. At least we still have Chik-fil-a around here. They have playgrounds, are about as healthy as fast food will ever get, and have a kid night where children get a free ice cream cone.

Re:Simple Solution

[moranar]

If the new customers take 35 minutes to eat the same sandwich they could have eaten in 10, thus blocking the seats for other hapless bastards, McDonalds hasn't much to pat themselves in the back for.
Which is the point of the summary, nevermind the article.

Re:Simple Solution

[Bert64]

We had a school canteen when i was in school, which served various fast foods and "kids foods" etc...
One of my classmates was the son of someone who worked in the school canteen, and he was forbidden from eating anything purchased in the canteen...

Re:Simple Solution

[jahudabudy]

Red Arrow manufactures natural smoke flavor by charring sawdust and capturing the aroma chemicals released into the air.

I especially like this line. Basically, they manufacture natural smoke flavor by burning stuff and capturing the smoke released into the air. And he presents this as a somehow unexpected, contrived method to bottle smoke flavor.

Re:Simple Solution

[cashman73]

No, I don't work for them at all. But I do notice that their business seems pretty regular, and they don't seem to have a problem with people occupying seats for too long, making it difficult for others to find a seat.

Perhaps McDonald's real issue is that the cheap-ass prices of their food are drawing in everybody and everybody, whereas Panera is a bit more expensive, so doesn't draw in the lower-class crowds, so there's more room for more people.

Re:Simple Solution

[Bert64]

Not necessarily, they might order a half sized sandwich, or they might order multiple instances of the smaller portion or more side orders to bulk it out, or might just eat again sooner.

Re:Simple Solution

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

If you think that just looking at the calories a good way to judge healthy food, you don't know much about nutrition. I'm not saying that either one of these companies sell more nutritional food than the other, but just comparing how much they don't have of a couple of things is like comparing the "cons" of something and failing to take into account the "pros". I suggest reading "The Omnivore's Dilemma". Googling it should find you a free PDF or the entire article somewhere.

Re:Simple Solution

[Hognoxious]

Yeah, I call it negative ergonomics. Take a seat with a rise at the front edge that presses into the back of the thigh. Make the seat higher than normal so the feet dangle.

It's OK for ten minutes but then your legs go numb.

Re:Simple Solution

[cashman73]

Make sure you compare apples to apples here. I think a lot of Panera customers order the "You Pick Two" deals, so instead of a full sandwich, you only get half a sandwich, a soup, and your choice of bread or fruit/vegetables. The half sandwiches are on par, and in some cases slightly less calories, than the McDonald's offerings. Plus, most of their soups (even something like Broccoli Cheddar or Cream of Chicken, blow the living crap out of McD French Fries. Well, except on the sodium -- you're right about the sodium. ;-)

Non-Disclaimer: I don't work for Panera Bread, or McDonald's. I work on an urban University campus that has both McDs and Panera. I've eaten at the Panera, not at the McDs. Students seem to love the Panera, but it's still not overflowing to the point of not being able to find a seat (then again, the campus itself offers free wi-fi, too, so that kind of defeats the purpose of businesses offering it). I have yet to set foot in the McDs on campus -- can't stand the smell of the joint. Last two times I ate McDs, I threw up. I'll gladly pay a few bucks more for food if I don't regurgitate it afterwards, thankyouverymuch!

Re:Simple Solution

[Nimey]

Simple solution: limit how much TV your kids get to watch. Most marketing I remember towards kids when I was one was on TV.

We're only getting broadcast TV, which (except for PBS) eliminates most kiddie shows and hence kiddie advertising. DVDs will supply kids' shows worth watching.

Re:Simple Solution

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Toxicity is relative. I also suspect the natural one gains a higher price because it contains many more compounds in general, which effects the taste. Perhaps you can't tell the difference between many real and artificial flavors, but many can. I also don't buy the price argument -- it can still work out cheaper to buy ingredients and make healthy food yourself than it is to buy processed or ready-made all the time.

Re:Simple Solution

[gutter]

So is your good friend a giant hypocrite? If it is so terrible that she won't eat it, why is she willing to inflict it on the rest of us?

Re:Simple Solution

[jollyreaper]

Ya know, it really shocks me when I read this backwards drivel and see otherwise intelligent people gobble it up. If the facts in that article had appeared in a science fiction magazine in the 60s people would have said: wow, I wish I could live in that world where science even makes food taste better! But that was an era when the atom was your friend and we were going to conquer space

Your sarcasm is noted. The problem is that we tend to muck with stuff that's been working fine and introduce problems that are worse than the original ones we tried to solve. Look at the prevalence of HFC. That stuff isn't used because it's good for us, it's used because it's cheaper than sugar. The hormones injected into cows are to stimulate milk production. The antibiotics are used because of the crowded conditions on feed lots. Is there any concern for how these substances will affect downstream consumers? No. It's all about short-term profit maximization.

The reason why people disturst big business is because they've seen how big business operates. Dismissing every person concerned about factory food as an alarmist conspiracy hippie only makes you look like an industry apologist and moron.

Re:Simple Solution

[__aarzwb9394]

yes, but (to be grossly stereotypical for a sentence or two) we are talking about people who are too lazy to cook their own food. Or maybe they are too stupid to realise the benefits. 10 extra minutes in the kitchen is 10 fewer minutes in front of the telly, after all

In the UK home cooking is now pretty much a hobby for affluent people. It really is seen as a hobby.

I think it's quite common to get through school here without a single cookery class. I certainly did. (I only took an interest in cooking once I was at uni.) IMHO that is collosally bad curriculum design. Good for manufacturers of convenience food though.

Re:Simple Solution

[Just Some Guy]

Really? Your friend with a PhD in food likes to cook for herself? I would not have guessed as much.

Re:Simple Solution

[rho]

while McDonald's sells low to middling quality food super cheap

I'm not so sure that's true anymore. Last time I saw a McDonald's menu the combo means were pushing 6 or 7 bucks. You can get a much better burger from freaking Applebee's for only two or three more bucks.

McDonald's breakfasts are still pretty inexpensive, but their lunch and dinner menus are not cheap eats.

I think the fast-food franchises are due for a massive management overhaul. They depended too much on cheap gas to move unhealthy but cheap pre-processed food in bulk, and on customers who drove around all the time buying things. This worked for many decades, but it's no good now.

Re:Simple Solution

[ukyoCE]

Worse yet, every Panera I've been to has seating problems, especially around lunch and dinner times. You look around and no one has any food, or at most a drink. Sure, they may have eaten lunch an hour ago, but now they're sitting there with a laptop or newspaper or text book. And I have to sit on their "fireplace" to eat my lunch.

Re:Simple Solution

[ukyoCE]

Pretty interesting! I think the biggest problem with McDonald's is the deep fried foods, and those are bad for all the same reasons anywhere you go. That and the 2-liter soda cups. Surprisingly, the sandwhiches (burgers) are really not that bad for you at McDonalds.

Check out the movie Super Size Me. There's a guy he meets who eats 2+ McDonald's burgers every day. Tall skinny guy. Doesn't eat the fries or soda, just the burgers.

Meanwhile the filmmaker is puking after a day or two of eating supersized fries and sodas for every meals.

Re:Simple Solution

[Theoboley]

What is this MacDonalds....??

Is it a new restaurant chain like McDowells (coming to america) or WackArnolds?? (Chappelle's Show Skit) I'd really like to try their food. I bet it's a cut above McDonalds.

Re:Simple Solution

[massysett]

How do you suggest Panera Bread handle it when their seats start getting filled-up by people using the Wi-Fi?

Indeed. I used to live near a Panera Bread. When I go out to eat, I want to consume my food in the restaurant, not take the food back home to eat it.

Most nights when I would pass Panera, all the seating was occupied by people using laptop computers. So I would go elsewhere to eat. It did not seem that the laptop users were consuming food, either. Maybe they get occasional drink refills.

Re:Simple Solution

[Dansteeleuk]

Yeah sure, NOW it is... ;)

Re:Simple Solution

[Hatta]

The natural flavour contains very small amounts of cyanide, the artificial one doesn't.

Are very small amounts of cyanide harmful? Besides cyanide, the natural flavoring will have all sorts of other chemicals besides the few esters they synthesize for almond flavoring. That will give it a more complex, and arguably better flavor.

Unless you can demonstrate that very small amounts of cyanide are harmful, I don't see how this is a good argument that natural isn't better. It's not always better of course, but this argument is a poor one.

Re:Simple Solution

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

I think it's a bit more complicated than people just being stupid. The food industry plays on the science so that things seem better than they are. Then there is the government in many places, who don't want to tread on too many commercial toes, so they try to change the wording of things to the public. Then there is the media who end up releasing confusing data because they don't understand what they're reporting. And yeah, the educational systems aren't exactly helping, either.

Re:Simple Solution

[internerdj]

Serve food more like McDonald's. That way you can have all those seats not occupied by websurfers empty...

Re:Simple solution

[cvd6262]

I remember a McDonalds in Bordeaux, France, that printed the code for the bathroom on the receipt. It kept the vagrants and hoodlums out.

Re:Simple Solution

[mykey2k]

The Paneras I have gone to have the log-in page prominently display the time limits during peak periods (11am-2pm) and will disconnect you after 30 or 60 minutes, depending on the location.

Honestly, it is evident that people are not eating at McDonalds who are using the WiFi. After eating their garbage, I can barely make it 15 minutes without heading quickly for a restroom.

Another solution would be to print a "passcode" of sorts on the receipt that is good for X-minutes depending on your purchase. Keeps paying customers in, drops the free-loaders out.

-m

Re:Simple Solution

[dryeo]

Actually my son was diagnosed as autistic long before he ever had any junk food, I actually made it quite a ways before he ever had any junk food.
What actually calmed him down, and he even started to talk was cutting out milk from his diet. It was just too bad that he was almost 6 before we figured out the milk connection.
And I really don't think going to McDonalds a couple of times a month is that bad.

Re:Simple Solution

[Acer500]

So is your good friend a giant hypocrite? If it is so terrible that she won't eat it, why is she willing to inflict it on the rest of us?

There are lots of people like that. A (house) painter I know used to work at a noodle factory... he refuses to eat noodles. Same for people who know the insides of certain kitchens, etc.

Re:Simple Solution

[dryeo]

I guess it is a case of your mileage may vary. The McDonalds around here aren't that bad. Slightly noisy but no worse then a kid friendly park.
Kids are kids, sometimes they talk and play loudly, especially when with other kids.

Re:Simple Solution

[stillnotelf]

My high school did this. The chairs were extremely uncomfortable rock-hard plastic, not molded to sit well (they were slightly convex rather than concave). They were also balanced so that you couldn't tilt backwards in them. The idea was that you'd HAVE to sit up straight, and couldn't fall asleep very easily given the awfulness of the chair. It was a brilliant decision by the administrators...

Re:Simple Solution

[DrgnDancer]

He's right on all counts though. It's one of my favorite "cheap" places to eat. Unfortunately the only one in Huntsville is across town so I don't get there much.

Re:Simple Solution

[home-electro.com]

I too don't understand who needs a WiFi at Mac. Opening up a laptop next to fries and ketchup? No thanks.

Re:Simple Solution

[penguin_dance]

Actually, I've never seen that problem at a Panera's. I think you get a different crowd there. Not trying to put down the Micky-D's crowd, but while the food is reasonable, it does cost more than a $1 menu item; most who going to Panera's for lunch are professionals who need to get back to work during the "peak periods."

But I just love the companies that put things like WiFi in specifically SO people will hang out (and of course BUY MORE FOOD). Then they get mad when someone comes in and sits for 3 hours, nursing a cup of coffee. What did they THINK was going to happen. How much of that crap do they think someone's going to eat?

Not every restaurant or cafe that puts in WiFi has this issue. Therefore, you have to look at the type of crowd that visits your establishment and if your business is going to benefit from people lingering or not because they're likely to buy more either while there or through more frequent visits. At a "fast" food place, I would say, probably not the right business model.

Re:Simple Solution

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Dum da dah!!! Yes, that's right folks, McDonald's food is manufactured. That's a dirty word.

As usual, you miss the point. And you do it in the most loud and proud fashion too.

As I said originally, food is more than just the list of nutrients. A list that only measures a very small part of the complexity.

So McDonalds is manufactured out of the absolutely cheapest possible materials that are still edible and flavoring is added to make people think the food is of a higher quality than it is. Big deal you scream with bold words in a bold font. You like cardboard with corn oil and flavors, its freaking great!

Who cares if the means of storage and preparation are chosen for their cost-effectiveness and not their ability to maintain any of the complex carbohydrates, phytochemicals (oh shit, he said chemicals!), polyunsaturated oils, monounsaturated fats, etc that are normally found in higher quality, hand-prepared foods. As long as it tastes good!

I wish I could live in that world where science even makes food taste better! But that was an era when the atom was your friend and we were going to conquer space.

Gee, the universe turned out to be quite a bit more complicated than Popular Science made it out to be.
You are welcome to go back to believing that "duck and cover" will keep you safe though.

Re:Simple Solution

[Kelbear]

Back on topic, Panera bread's solution is to limit wifi to half an hour sessions. Between their peak hours between 11am and 2pm, the half hour is all you get. At other times of the day, you simply need to relogin through their welcome page after the half-hour is up.

McDonalds is far from the first restaurant to implement wifi.

Re:Simple Solution

[OrangeTide]

So pack a lunch instead of eating out. You'll save a LOT of money.

Of course, I never thought of doing this. *rolls eyes*

Except I have to stock food and wake up early enough to make myself lunch. This was much easier when I was a little kid and my mom did it for me.

Most people like to go outside of work during lunch time to get away from work for a while. And bringing a sack lunch into a restaurant seems wrong.

Re:Simple Solution

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Sorry, I get confused with one of his essays: Unhapppy Meals. I haven't read the book I mentioned, although I think it covers some similar topics. It's only the first chapter that's free.

Re:Simple solution

[Scroatzilla]

That's a fascinating observation about Americans (that they have no shame), but I am unsure what is shameful about taking what a business is giving away for free, on purpose? Ultimately the free wifi access gets people into the store, most of whom buy things. This concept is called marketing and, as far as I can tell, the notion of shame-- by design-- is absent.

Re:Simple solution

[R2.0]

Her's an even simpler one:

"Excuse me sir, as you can see we're getting a bit crowded. Would you mind sharing your table? No? I'me very sorry to hear that, sir, but as you can see we really need the space. May I ask you to come back later and connect at a time when it's a bit less crowded? We apologize for the inconvenience; here's a card for 2 free hours when you return."

90% of the people a manager approaches will voluntarily bail when asked - or share the table. Of the ones who won't, another 9% will take the second offer. For that last 1 percent, pull out the "customer causing a disruption" section of the franchise manual and go from there.

Now, to find a McDonald's employee that speaks english...

Re:Simple solution

[Acer500]

A simple solution : print an access code on tickets you receive when buying some food. Should only be unique and valid for a couple of minutes. Access code expired ? Buy more stuff or get the hell out ! Solved.

That's what they do in Argentina, though it's only valid for onsite PC's, not wireless.

Re:Simple Solution

[HungWeiLo]

I've heard that they've had a number of child injury liability lawsuits from the playgrounds. So out they go.

Re:Simple solution

[DrgnDancer]

The vast, vast majority of people go into Starbucks to get coffee and/or a pastry, and consider wifi and nice plus. Most won't object to this, and will ready for a new coffee by the 30 minute mark anyway. Sounds like a good plan to me.

Re:Simple Solution

[n4f]

Look at the nutrition facts:
http://www.panerabread.com/pdf/nutr-guide.pdf
http://nutrition.mcdonalds.com/nutritionexchange/nutrition_facts.html

Average half sandwich is around 500 calories, 10 grams of fat, and 5 grams of saturated fat.
Big Mac has 540 calories, 29 grams of fat, 10 grams of saturated fat.

The panera sandwich is only a half, which won't fill up most males as a lunch or dinner, so if you want the full sandwich double that.

Panera is delicious, but don't think that its anywhere near good for you.

Re:Simple Solution

[roguenine19]

What makes you think they don't already have that problem? Last time I was in Panera I saw someone sitting there typing on an external keyboard with his laptop hooked up to a 15" monitor!

He was there when we got there, and was still typing away when we left, half an hour later. He didn't have any food near him; he couldn't because his setup took up too much space.

I can't believe how shameless people can be in abusing a system other people put up in good faith.

Re:Simple Solution

[StuartHankins]

In my area Panera is too crowded. McDonald's is crowded also. You have to go somewhere else for some room.

Re:Simple Solution

[Whorhay]

I remember being told that originally McDonalds went with that horrendous orange color as the main interior color for thier establishments for just that reason. Studies had shown that the bright orange made people uncomfortable such that they wouldn't spend anymore time than necessary to eat their food and get out.

Re:Simple Solution

[tixxit]

Nifty idea, but it could back-fire. I love food, but the main reason I go to a restaurant (over eating at home) is to hang out with friends and the enjoy the atmosphere. I tend to stick with restaurants whose environment promotes conversations/intimacy among friends. There are a number of restaurants I avoid when going out with friends because there are just too many interruptions, uncomfortable or awkward seating, or servers who push you out the door the minute you've paid. Luckily, there are more then enough restaurants out there that value repeat customers and customers who enjoy themselves in their restaurant that I am not going hungry. Give me my 10-15 extra minutes at a table, and you'll have me back next week.

Re:Simple Solution

[The_mad_linguist]

Yes. It's worked for thousands of years, and I bet chemicals could keep our bodies in tip-top shape for a few more centuries (if we choose to use them wisely). After all, no one has yet had any better ideas.

I'd very much like someone to come up with a method of making foods from non-chemicals, and see how it works out.

Well, I always enjoy having a light salad for lunch.

Re:Simple Solution

[AeroIllini]

If the facts in that article had appeared in a science fiction magazine in the 60s people would have said: wow, I wish I could live in that world where science even makes food taste better! But that was an era when the atom was your friend and we were going to conquer space.

Why don't you read it that way now? I saw none of the snarkiness you implied in the article. It doubt it was written with a smirk, but it could be interpreted that way if read with one.

Perhaps your cynicism has made it impossible for you to read that and say "wow, that is a fascinating science," and believe that Schlosser thinks that way, too.

I haven't read the rest of the book, so maybe it is cynical in context. But that excerpt contains none of the "OMG CHEMICALS!!!1!!one!!" that you seem to think it implies.

Re:Simple Solution

[Isotopian]

Sold!

Re:Simple Solution

[kchrist]

There's a lot more to nutrition than calories and fat. How much HFCS is in the Big Mac vs. the sandwich? How many chemicals and pesticides?

As well, is the Big Mac really all "most males" would eat for lunch or would there be some fries in there too? Last time I saw a fast food hamburger it wasn't much, if any, bigger than the average sandwich from a bakery or cafe.

Re:Simple Solution

[kchrist]

omnivores dilemma is filled with pseudo-science.

[citation needed]

Re:Simple Solution

[moortak]

Actually for many flavors you can't tell the difference between natural and synthetic flavors they are chemically identical.

Re:Simple solution

[Neoncow]

With regards to your point about shame, my guess is that it's supposed to make you feel cheap. Which many associate with the poor. Also asking for thing for free could be associated with begging.

Re:Simple Solution

[icannotthinkofaname]

You see? Chemicals do make everything better, when used properly! :D

Remember, everything is made up of chemical elements and chemical compounds.

Re:Simple Solution

[RockWolf]

Food, wi-fi, AND a puppet show? Man, I am never leaving this place!

From your UID, it does seem like you've been stuck here a while.

/~Rockwolf

Re:Simple Solution

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

While I'm sure that's true, I'm also sure that there are still many where you can taste the difference because they aren't all chemically identical. So unless you want to get into specifics...

Re:Simple Solution

[MichaelSmith]

Depends a lot on your location. The place in question is close to a cinema. They rely on people dropping in after the movie. Your preferred restaurant would be in a location with less passing trade. They would focus more on keeping customers on the premises. Wifi might make sense there.

Re:Simple Solution

[Khyber]

Turn in your geek card and GTFO. If you don't have a mountain of BAWLS bottles, McD's fry containers, and opened/unopened ketchup packets on your desk you don't belong here.

Oh, and you must be new here.

Re:Simple Solution

[cavebison]

There's a reason why they're hyper, which is what you call a Catch-22.

Re:Simple Solution

[dryeo]

Sure,as replied elsewhere the problem with my son turned out to be milk. Once milk was totally cut out of his diet he calmed down and became much more functional.

Re:Simple Solution

[cavebison]

That's interesting... I listen to health updates on a science network, but never heard about milk causing hyperactivity. Glad you found the source, that can be very tricky!

Re:Simple Solution

[__aarzwb9394]

the reason I referred to Schlosser's mentioning of almond flavouring is QuantumG's dismissal of Schlosser's arguments "because he is a hippie". Schlosser himself brings up the example in order to demonstrate that there needs to be careful thought about what we put into our food supply.

QuantumG's dismissal was extremely misleading. Schlosser is very aware that not all food additives are bad. However, he points out that they are often added for reasons that don't help anyone except the manufacturer's bottom line. Not the consumer, and not the workers who produce the food.

Schlosser, far from being a "hey man everything science does is bad" type, has written a very good book. It is most certainly not a PETA member's/Burning Man attendee's bible.

As for me, I have no idea about the safety or otherwise flavourings of any kind.

Re:Simple Solution

[petermgreen]

What they do however do (and did to an even greater extent a few years ago with the whole super-size thing) is push oversized portions of fries and pop (presumablly because both are cheap). Even in a medium big mac meal the fries and coca-cola account for more than half the total calories and in a large meal the fries alone are as high as the big-mac itself.

Then there are the milkshakes which are offered for a slight extra charge with the meals and really bump up the calorie count.........

Re:Simple Solution

[dryeo]

Well, what he has been diagnosed as is autistic. At the time of the diagnosis, about 12 years ago, there were quite a few posts on the net about milk and gluton causing or amplifying the symptoms of autism. My son wasn't so much hyper, more uncontrollable, including being extremely frustrated by not being able to talk. Anyways after reading various things about milk and gluton we cut out the milk and there was an immediate improvement, he even began to speak though he still has quite a speech impediment. The only thing i'm sorry about is that I didn't experiment sooner. Unluckily we all have been sold on the dairy propaganda about needing milk.
One other point is that my wife is native American and it turns out that natives and various other races just don't have the enzymes required to digest lactose. Seems that it is a relatively recent mutation in Western European stock. The same is probably true of other races, they've individually evolved to handle certain diets.

Re:Simple Solution

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Why do you assume Panera food is any more "pure" than that from McDonald's?

What part of "presumably" do you fail to understand?
Have you really never heard it used as a synonym of "for the sake of argument?"

Re:Simple Solution

[home-electro.com]

Lol, I do not have those on my desk. My desk is messy by most people's standards, but it is not greasy!

Oh, and I have a wife -- definitely not belong here...

Re:Simple Solution

[dryeo]

They remodeled the local McDonald's a few years back. Put in a fireplace and comfy chairs. The outside playground is still there though. Never was an indoor one here. I don't really go to McDonald's anymore so haven't kept up on it. This is Canada btw.

Since when does McDonald's want 'sticky' customers

[PCM2]

I once heard that the reason McDonald's used to outfit its restaurants with hard plastic bench seats colored garish orange and yellow was for that reason -- so you wouldn't want to stick around too long. Has it changed its mind recently?

well....

[R.Morton]

What did they think would happen ?, of course people are going to stay longer maybe add more seating or extend the range to cover a larger area so users could sit in their cars and use the WIFI there.

Just a thought

R.Morton

Re:well....

[ciderVisor]

I sometimes sit in the car park at the local McD's and use my netbook without buying any food.

Re:well....

[westlake]

extend the range to cover a larger area so users could sit in their cars and use the WIFI there.

The idea is to get the nerd chained to his laptop inside your restaurant. Not brown-bagging it in your parking lot.

Re:well....

[residieu]

Do what the McDonalds near me does. Have your employees deny that you offer free WiFi, despite the posters in plain view on the walls advertising it.

Re:well....

[R.Morton]

yup, when I was driving to a Walmart in Kirksville, Mo to work there as a temp for a week or two a Mcdonalds in Macon, Mo said the same thing "we do not have free WIFI but you can buy a Pass for a 1 year for 20.00 that will work at any Mcdonalds."

I told them forget it, the sign says free I want free damn it. (Hell only wanted to check my Email)

R.Morton

Re:well....

[R.Morton]

yeah, I know but if the lobby is full the same nerd would use it in thier car and if they still want somthing they can get it the Drive thru on the way out of the parking lot.

I know I have done this in Olathe, KS where I used to live I would go there for lunch sit in my car if the lobby was full and use my laptop for 20 Mins then go back to work.

I have seen several people do this as well so I know people would be willing to do it.

R.Morton

I still prefer my coffee shop.

[WarJolt]

Even if I did eat McDonalds food there I don't think I like the atmosphere enough to stay. There coffee tastes like piss anyway. With all the great local free wifi around where I live I'd have to be pretty desperate to go there. Simple solution: open up a coffee shop next door.

Re:I still prefer my coffee shop.

[vkapadia]

Consumer Reports would disagree with that harsh assessment:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16951509/

The magazine reported that McDonald's was "decent and moderately strong. Although it lacked the subtle top notes needed to make it rise and shine, it had no flaws."

That said, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Re:I still prefer my coffee shop.

[BeaverCleaver]

And there's the rub. In Australia (that place in the summary, I haven't RTFA either!) we don't have ubiquitous hotspots. The woeful state of our broadband has been discussed here many times before so I won't say anything more than that it's fault of those cunts at Telstra, and their douchebag former CEO (who incidentally used to be in charge of USWEST in Colorado, who were so shit they had to change their name to Qwest... OK I'm ranting here but god dammit my country does some retarded shit)

In summary, down here in .au we don't have the option of going next door because next door probably doesn't have wireless. McDonalds is generally the BEST option for public WiFi, and even they meter the usage pretty hard.

And I have to confess to occasionally getting a small coke or ice cream just to sit down and use the web for half an hour...

Re:I still prefer my coffee shop.

[daveime]

Baldrick ?

I've done three bottles !

(very oblique Blackadder reference)

Re:I still prefer my coffee shop.

[BrainInAJar]

I wouldn't trust consumer reports to tell me what wines are worthwhile, similarly with coffee.

The SCAA exists for a reason

Re:I still prefer my coffee shop.

[Nazlfrag]

So you confess to going into their store when you normally wouldn't and purchasing stuff? You utter bastard! Heaven forbid they earned a little more money that day. It's anarchists like you that make a mockery of cheap promotional stunts by honest, hardworking advertising executives.

Re:I still prefer my coffee shop.

[KahabutDieDrake]

I live in a coastal town in oregon. You can't go a block without a wifi signal. I can drive from one end of town to the other (about 5 miles) and never lose my connection once. More often than not I can carry two connection using the built in wifi and my cell phone tethered.

We have so much wifi in this town it's not even funny. First off, we have more hotels per square block than just about anywhere you've ever been. Second, every place in town has wifi for no apparent reason. If the hotels weren't enough (and they are), every other restaurant features wifi, and every single coffee shop has wifi. The vast majority of which are Dlink or Linksys routers configured by a local highschool geek, connected to the local fiber (fiber runs right down the main hwy through town, and everyone is connected to it). It's too the point where I can walk from my place, up the beach 2 miles and carry an active connection the whole way. I'm talking about getting my feet wet in the pacific ocean, and I can't get far enough out to sea while carrying my laptop/phone to NOT get a wifi signal.

I don't even have internet service anymore. From my place, I can reach 3 unsecured networks (1 of which is actually for public use) and 3 more that are "secure" but only in the most novel sense of the word.

Last week I was at the public library and some tourist asked where he could get wifi. After the clerk explained why the library doesn't have wifi, I mentioned that there were currently 5 networks in range, all free and open. One of which is Burger king, one of which is the gawd damned grocery store next door (don't ask, I have no idea why they have wifi) another of which is a private citizen's network labeled "linksys", and the other two were hotels within range.

I will say that the local McD's doesn't have a problem with squatters. No one hangs out at McD's when the casino is across the street, has an ocean view and will serve you drinks while you surf for free on their network, oh, and if you put 5$ on a hand of blackjack every once in a while, the drinks are practically free.

No, I'm not at the casino right now, I'm in the parking lot sobering up for the 2 mile drive home.

Re:I still prefer my coffee shop.

[ciderVisor]

"I'm not a cobb or corn, so you can stop butterin' me up. I don't need you to tell me how good my coffee is. I'm the one who buys it, I know how fuckin' good it is. When Bonnie goes shoppin', she buys shit. I buy the gourmet expensive stuff 'cause when I drink it, I wanna taste it."

Re:I still prefer my coffee shop.

[ciderVisor]

Why do you hate Amer^H^H^Hustralia ?

Re:I still prefer my coffee shop.

[mgblst]

In Australia (that place in the summary, I haven't RTFA either!) we don't have ubiquitous hotspots.

Unless, of course, you happen to live in Adelaide, which has free wifi throughout the city. Provided by the council. You won't see that in Sydney or Melbourne (Sydney that has a half private airport, where you need to pay to go between terminals).

Amazing

[Deadstick]

Let's see...connection time is free, **AA complaints go to McD's IP address, and people stay longer...what are the odds of THAT?

rj

Re:Amazing

[kingturkey]

You can't pirate much with 150 MB, that's what the session limit is here in Australia (up & down).

I think they've already solved this...

[SuperNothing307]

I was at a McDonald's just today and tried to get on the wireless there. Unfortunately, it was a godforsaken Boingo hotspot (same as the ones that I curse at the airport on a regular basis), and the first thing it asked me for was my credit card number. Needless to say, I didn't stick around long...

Re:I think they've already solved this...

[rob1980]

I ran into that snag the one time I tried to get onto a McD's wifi too. Must be on a per-franchise basis or something.

Re:I think they've already solved this...

[Technician]

Some public hot spots are targets for identity thiefs by doing a man in the middle attack. A backpack can contain everyting nessary to hijack a public hotspot to add a splash screen set up to harvest CC numbers, email accounts, bank logins, etc.

For that very reason, I NEVER use a public hotspot for any secure transaction. I even cruise Slashdot while not logged in and I don't log into my mail.

Re:I think they've already solved this...

[SuperNothing307]

And I understand your post now, my bad. Always should read things twice :P . AP spoofing is a big threat, and it's yet another good reason why never to enter your credit card to access wifi anywhere (besides the whole having to pay part :P ).

Re:I think they've already solved this...

[fractoid]

I used one of those briefly in Singapore airport (dunno if it was Boingo, but some wireless hotspot provider) which claimed to be free for Telstra customers (my phone company at the time). It asked for my number to prove that I had a Telstra phone, and when I got my next bill I had a $25 charge on it for internet usage. Bastards.

Re:I think they've already solved this...

[timeOday]

AP spoofing is a big threat, and it's yet another good reason why never to enter your credit card to access wifi anywhere (besides the whole having to pay part :P ).

I have to disagree with you and the grandparent. https (ssl/tls) does work. So long as you look at the URLs you are accessing and don't override your browser's warnings, you don't have to worry about your bank account info being stolen. (Your precious slashdot ID is another matter, since there is no https access so far as I know).

Re:I think they've already solved this...

[Lord Kano]

This is exactly what CAs and SSL are for.

If you are even thinking about logging into your email, check the cert. A MiTM attack can't work unless the attacker has a valid cert, if they do, then what does it matter where you connect from?

LK

Re:I think they've already solved this...

[Tuoqui]

Sounds like an exceedingly weak method of billing. Imagine if someone just randomly entered phone numbers until they got one. From what I heard Telstra is the biggest one around there so it'd be likely to hit one sooner or later.

Re:I think they've already solved this...

[fractoid]

Think they care? You can send unsolicited commercial SMSes out to random numbers and charge them $10 per text and there's nothing the current system can do to stop it, it's retarded. Serves me right for believing them when they said it was free for Telstra users, I guess.

Re:I think they've already solved this...

[maglor_83]

You were a Telstra customer and expected to get something for free?

Re:I think they've already solved this...

[fractoid]

:( shoulda known better I guess.

Re:I think they've already solved this...

[wertarbyte]

We now have this new thing called "HTTPS" that can prevent such things.

Re:I think they've already solved this...

[jonbryce]

Yes it does, because if they do have a valid certificate for your bank, and reports elsewhere have shown that there are CAs that will sell them to you, then being in control of the Wireless Access Point makes it much easier to redirect you to their site and serve up the fake certificate.

Re:I think they've already solved this...

[Nimey]

Also, VPN or SSH tunnels to a trusted machine.

Re:I think they've already solved this...

[petermgreen]

A MiTM attack can't work unless the attacker has a valid cert, if they do, then what does it matter where you connect from?
A MiTM attack on a https connection requires two things

1: the ability to actually insert themselves in the middle of your communications link
2: a ssl cert that the browser will accept for the domain you are trying to get to.

Unfortunately history has shown that getting the second of theese two requirements is far from impossible, so it makes sense to try and avoid situations that make the first of them easy.

What was the business plan?

[fermion]

At someplace like starbucks, where one has a reasonable chance of receiving $5 for $.20 of product, low overhead, few employees, WiFi makes sense. The same hold true for many other places where table turnover is closer to an hour than a few minutes.

I never understood what was the point of putting these things in places where turnover is a few minutes. It encourages loitering. It is not like customers pay for refills, or are otherwise likely to buy more product.

Of course the solution is simple. Do what other places are doing. Limit the time. If they want turnover in 10 minutes, make that the time limit. The point stands, though. WiFi in places like this just seems silly. OTOH, I know of places that have gone out of business after they got rid of the WiFi. They did not like hanging around in the afternoon drinking coffee, but those same people also stopped coming around for the evening meal.

Re:What was the business plan?

[Shadow of Eternity]

A lot of places here in CFL have taken to sticking a second antenna outside and letting all the freeloaders sit outside doing their thing. The heat tends to get rid of them quickly, and those that do stay tend to be more likely to buy things, and the ones that are hell bent on getting just free internet and nothing else still wind up attracting customers without using up too much space.

Re:What was the business plan?

[dbIII]

In Australia some McDonald's branches added a "McCafe" counter with expresso coffee and cake - all the branches with WiFi that I have seen so far are like that. Since it's european style coffee it's actually better in quality than Starbucks but much more limited in range.

Re:What was the business plan?

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

I thought compact fluorescent lamps ran comparatively cooler than incandescent.

Re:What was the business plan?

[pwizard2]

I'm guessing he meant central Florida. Summers in the southeast are like living in a greenhouse, but worse.

Re:What was the business plan?

[BrainInAJar]

I wouldn't drink anything that's a forced steam decoction of ground roasted arabica pits and neither should you, as the optimal brewing temperature for coffee is 195 - 205 degrees F and higher temperatures extract more harsh bitters. Espresso machines have pumps ( or levers ) and very strict temperature control.

Re:What was the business plan?

[dbIII]

Poor spelling aside, I meant coffee made using an espresso machine by someone with at least a few minutes of training instead of the usual stewed pot of stuff kept just below the boiling point for hours.
If we're going to quibble about poor spelling on an international forum here I may as well horrify many of the Americans here by stating that three of the coffees you can get are flat white, long black and short black. A few Aussies have been badly misuderstood in the USA when they asked African-American waitressess for a short black. Bonus points in the South if they think you are gay as well as racist in asking for a long black.

Re:What was the business plan?

[temcat]

Here in St. Petersburg, Russia McDonalds limits the free WiFi time to 30 minutes. Guess that's what they find suitable.

Re:What was the business plan?

[temcat]

Same here in St. Petersburg, Russia.

Re:What was the business plan?

[rastilin]

They did not like hanging around in the afternoon drinking coffee, but those same people also stopped coming around for the evening meal.

Pretty unsurprising, customers are less likely to come back when they realize you view them only as mobile wallets.

Re:What was the business plan?

[Hognoxious]

But when it was called Leningrad it was the other way round.

Re:What was the business plan?

[Remusti]

You know, calling someone a short black is a quick way to get a flat white.

Re:What was the business plan?

[Midnight Thunder]

At someplace like starbucks, where one has a reasonable chance of receiving $5 for $.20 of product, low overhead, few employees, WiFi makes sense.

But in my experience Starbucks has started charging for its Wi-Fi access, and certain cases the accumulated monthly cost is many times higher than my home network connection. I now walk around with my DS looking for coffee shops offering free Wi-Fi.

Re:What was the business plan?

[King_TJ]

For McDonalds, I think there's *some* profit in getting people to stay longer - simply because a number of people go back to get a McFlurry or sundae ... some dessert-type item, if they're done with a meal and decide to stick around a while on a wi-fi connection. Others might even go back for one of those coffee drinks of theirs.

But essentially, you're right. I don't see why *unlimited* wireless is beneficial for them. On the flip-side though, most McD's around here seem to be offering that Wayport wi-fi access that AT&T gives you free as an iPhone user, but others have to pay some kind of subscription fee to access. If that's the situation, then you'd think McDonalds just serves as a distribution point for the service - and they could demand compensation from AT&T in return for letting them place the access points there?

Re:What was the business plan?

[PCM2]

I never understood what was the point of putting these things in places where turnover is a few minutes.

Think Wi-Fi in McDonald's is weird? Just the other day I saw a big sign advertising "Free Wi-Fi!!!" ... on the door of my local Safeway. Now who on Earth goes to the supermarket to surf the Web? And why is it in Safeway's interests to encourage that?

Re:What was the business plan?

[scribblej]

I know where you're coming from; I'm a fan of eating submarine sandwiches, and every time I'm in the shop ordering a "foot long italian" I'm afraid the guy behind the counter is going to yell into the back room, "Hey, Luigi, there's a guy out here a-lookin for you!"

I hate free wi-fi at fastfood stores...

[RuBLed]

I'm okay with free wifi at coffee shops and slightly luxirious stores but never at fastfood chains. I tend to avoid fastfood chains with free wifi and the reason is that we often have a hard time finding seats during lunch hours. Some worst cases are people ordering a coffee and using the space for over an hour to the point that they even asked for a renewal in their wifi connection. (Some have a 1-hr access limit so if you're renewing, you had been there for an hour)

McWiFi???

[erroneus]

Last time I saw McWiFi, it was Windows only and needed some sort of login. I run Linux so no McWiFi for me...

Re:McWiFi???

[dbIII]

At least in Australia now the login page works with a lot of web browsers (including phone ones) and is just something to tick a box about agreeing with terms and conditions. There's some sort of blocklist as well.

Re:McWiFi???

[eln]

That's weird, I've never heard of controlled access wifi that's Windows only. Unless they were using some sort of weird ActiveX control, I don't know why such a thing would be necessary.

When I was doing controlled access WiFi systems like that, it was basically a web page based login. Upon successful login, it just adds a firewall rule for your MAC address so you can get around the Internet. If it's timed, after a certain amount of time the firewall rule is removed. You'd have to jump through some hoops to make such a thing Windows-only.

Re:McWiFi???

[Spliffster]

it probably depends where you live, they pretty sure use different service providers in different countries.

I am not living in the US and have exactly the same problem as GP.

-S

Re:McWiFi???

[michaelwigle]

I admit it's strange but I believe I encountered it at a local library location after they made some changes to their public wifi system. I used to be able to connect with my linux box but then it stopped working for me but worked for Windows boxes. I could connect to the AP and get an IP but all of the routing information seemed bad and there was no DNS resolution. It was very odd.

Re:McWiFi???

[Just Some Guy]

Last time I saw McWiFi, it was Windows only and needed some sort of login. I run Linux so no McWiFi for me...

Really? Last time I saw it, it was wide open. The time before that, I had to open Safari on my iTouch, click "I Agree", then run my other applications.

Re:McWiFi???

[phaggood]

> Windows only wifi

Caribou Coffee was like this the last time I took my Linux-laptop in with me. This is why I haven't been in a Caribou for a long time.

Re:McWiFi???

[Knara]

I've encountered situations where an AP will seem to work fine except not resolve or route any packets until you load up a webpage. Apparently the AP seeing something go across in http wakes it up in some fashion.

Why people only stay seated for 10 minutes..

[j741]

rather than the average ten minutes that patrons used to spend eating there

I only ever sat there for 10 minutes because that's all it took for the diarrhea to activate after eating that addictive crap. Sitting any longer and the chairs would be a different color.

Re:Since when does McDonald's want 'sticky' custom

[erroneus]

They don't want sticky customers. The signs in the bathrooms require that employees wash hands. But you know, the last time I was there, no employee would wash my hands... I wanted to complain but people made me leave.

They're all Googling "Heart Disease"

[Trip6]

...followed by "Stroke"...

Re:They're all Googling "Heart Disease"

[daveime]

You want McHussein fries and a McKimJongIl shake to go with your McBinLaden ?

Re:They're all Googling "Heart Disease"

[Anonymous Coward]

Considering McD's was founded in '55 (someone wiki that, I'm not entirely sure, and I'm lazy), I think you might be off a little. Ultimately, you can't assign death to McDs, you can assign it to poor standard of living, or even poor intake of food and an utter lack of exercise (thanks car culture), but McDs is a symptom, not a cause.
 
  McD's does what any other business does. Sell you something you want. In their case, they sell fast, cheap and tasty food. Don't deny it, you've eaten there, I've eaten there, and so has everyone else reading this. The difference between you, I, and the guy dying of a heart attack right now is that I run 2 miles a day and eat McD's once a month at most.
 
  I believe the appropriate epitaph here is "all things in moderation" (except women, you can never have too much woman, even if it kills you, it was totally worth it)

Re:They're all Googling "Heart Disease"

[catmistake]

Their business is not like all others. Drug dealers sell you what you want, and they've successfully been prosecuted using the P.Act. McDonald's is more like Big Tobacco than, say, IBM. Mcdonald's should be held accountable for the effects of its product, even if we want that product. Wouldn't you want Smith & Wessen held accountable if their most popular product killed 5% of its users? It would be a good thing, causing them to rethink their product to be less dangerous to use. Car manufacturers are often held accountable for defective manufacturing or design, why not McDonald's? Just because you think it tastes good doesn't make it good. Have you ever tasted antifreeze? Maybe McDonald's should sell that.

Re:Since when does McDonald's want 'sticky' custom

[Anonymous Coward]

Australian McDonalds restaurants are mostly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCafe these now. They have friendlier interiors, provide newspapers and make coffee thats slightly better than it used to be. And, they sell slurpees. Nerd Heaven.

Re:Since when does McDonald's want 'sticky' custom

[Jeff DeMaagd]

It seems to me that they could have a system set up such that you buy something and you can request a code for minutes of WiFi, maybe every dollar you spend on their product gets you a bonus of five minutes internet time. A combo would be half an hour. That way you don't get the people that just buy a coffee (or even not even buy anything) and stick around for an hour. That should cut the average time down and free up the seats.

I think I've heard of some shops turning off WiFi during rush hours simply because they don't have enough seats and would end up losing customers because people that want what they're selling end up going elsewhere.

PANERA solved this, by limits during peak hours

[hacker]

PANERA Bread already solved this problem. If you go to a PANERA during peak hours, you get roughly 10-15 minutes of free WiFi, and then you're shut off, at the MAC address level. Thankfully, I have GNU macchanger installed, so I can grab some more time, but they're already doing it programatically.

What's funny is watching someone come in, spill out their entire office on the table (manila file folders, laptop, external number pad and everything), and then get shut off because they sat chatting at the coffee machine for 10 minutes while their laptop was connected, and shut their laptop down, only to stare at me working for 30+ minutes at a time.

Am I breaking the rules? Maybe... but I also buy a breakfast, then a tea, then a lunch in the same 1-2 hours I'm there. I also have WWAN, so if WiFi was turned off, I could still continue to work, without changing anything (all built-in).

McDonalds should just limit the free wifi to 10-15 minutes and be done with it. Oh, and also SHUT IT OFF at the end of the night, so people don't just park in the parking lot and steal your wifi for nefarious means.

As with most of these "problems", the solution is rarely technical. It is usually a political problem that stops the solution from being implemented.

Re:PANERA solved this, by limits during peak hours

[Anonymous Coward]

SHUT IT OFF at the end of the night, so people don't just park in the parking lot and steal your wifi for nefarious means.

Uh, no. I reward places that offer free wifi with my patronage, and having the ability to swing by and look up directions or retrieve an email with instructions after hours is a beneficial service. They are no more or less likely to be able to do anything about "nefarious means" when they are open, so what exactly is the purpose of turning off the service?

On the other hand, intentionally bypassing the timing limitations, especially when you don't need the service in the first place, is not "maybe" wrong. It's just wrong. They offer variable timing for quality of service reasons as well as to cut down on loitering and people using their resources to torrent and the like. You're receiving a service with terms. Honor them. It's called integrity.

Re:PANERA solved this, by limits during peak hours

[jonaskoelker]

Thankfully, I have GNU macchanger installed

You can also use /etc/network/interfaces:

iface bond0 inet dhcp
                hwaddress ether de:ca:fb:ad:d0:0d

For extra fun, send messages to Starbucks in your MAC.

Re:PANERA solved this, by limits during peak hours

[QuantumG]

One day all wifi will be free.

Mark. My. Words.

Re:PANERA solved this, by limits during peak hours

[silver007]

Bingo! Give that man a cheeseburger... make it a quarter pounder. TIME THE FRIGGIN' SESSIONS. END OF ISSUE.

Re:PANERA solved this, by limits during peak hours

[daten]

The problem with Panera wifi users is they have a habit of taking up an entire 4 person table for more than an hour in the middle of lunch rush and buying little more than a coffee. I often go to Panera with friends and can't find a table because all of the large tables are taken by greedy laptop users and the small tables they should be using are empty.

I don't think the problem McDonalds is having is new and I don't think recommending Panera is the solution.

If he wants to try to beat the system by changing his MAC. Maybe I'll bring a backpack with airpwn next time.

Re:PANERA solved this, by limits during peak hours

[ZERO1ZERO]

Am I breaking the rules? Maybe... but I also buy a breakfast, then a tea, then a lunch in the same 1-2 hours I'm there.

dude you have your 3 square meals a day within the space of 1-2 hours?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXziWRCMalA

~40 secs in...

Re:PANERA solved this, by limits during peak hours

[eap]

Thankfully, I have GNU macchanger installed

You can also use /etc/network/interfaces:

iface bond0 inet dhcp

                hwaddress ether de:ca:fb:ad:d0:0d

For extra fun, send messages to Starbucks in your MAC.

You can do this at McD's too:

fe:ed:de:ad:be:ef

Turn it off when there are no seats. Duh.

[shanen]

No brainer--but we are talking about McDonalds, aren't we?

Announce a policy of turning off the WiFi when the McDonalds is too full, and post a schedule of the normal times when free access is available. No skin off their noses if they have some extra customers when there are empty seats, eh?

Since this is McDonalds, I feel obliged to note that the nose skin goes into the hot dogs. Does McDonalds serve hot dogs? That's how long it's been since I've eaten there... Wait! Sausage. I'm pretty sure they had some kind of morning sausage, and they can use the nose skin for the sausage. I'm pretty sure--but even more sure that I don't want to know for sure. No one wants to know the truth about sausage.

Actually, I read a couple of books about fast food a few years ago, and these days I don't eat at many fast food places. Must be a coincidence, eh?

Re:Turn it off when there are no seats. Duh.

[threephaseboy]

I've read over your post four times now and I still have no idea what your point is.
Something about hot dogs? Now I'm all hungry again after dinner, thanks.

Re:Turn it off when there are no seats. Duh.

[pHus10n]

I have mod points, and really wanted to mark the above post... but I don't see a "+5, Weird" setting...

Idiot business majors

[hellfire]

This is the idiocy of how some businesses deal with networking and the internet. First, they offer free. Then they find out when you offer free, people actually use it, and so the same business turns around and gets upset that people are using what you are offering for free?

Yes, people like free wi-fi, and you offered it in order to drum up traffic and hope those customers would buy stuff, which they did. But you like the business it brings in but you don't like those people freeloading on your network and in your seats when you need more people to be buying stuff?

Yo, McDonalds! Suck it up! You put yourself in this position now you have to deal with it like adults. You either have to limit free to like ten minutes of free, which does reduce the number of people who will come in since they might go to the coffee shop down the road, charge access fees, which also reduces walk ins, or accept that your restaurants don't have enough seats any more. You got greedy and wanted to steal some of the coffee shop crowd to your stores and now you are dealing with the fact that two business ideas are conflicting. Coffee shops work well with wi-fi business models because they have comfy chairs and lounges and expect their clientel to pay a lot for coffee and sit down for a while. It's about atmosphere. You have cheap coffee, no atmosphere, and expect to be selling coffee in volume.

I have a feeling Mickey D's is going to come up with stupid artificial rules that it will expect their employees to enforce and it's going to get ugly and moronic before they end the free wi-fi.

Re:Idiot business majors

[everynerd]

I think the idea behind the free wi-fi is not to keep people there longer, but to promote return visits. However it appears they ARE staying longer, and a "restaurant" like McDonalds can't cater to the lazy surfer. If it were seated area where customers were waited on and expected to order, this would likely not be an issue.

You're right though, McDonalds has brought this on themselves, but they're well within their rights to axe it just as quickly if it doesn't produce the expected results.

Re:Idiot business majors

[dbIII]

Australian McDonalds now have expensive coffee.

Re:Idiot business majors

[drooling-dog]

An alternative business model would be to charge by the hour for seating and give the coffee away (or sell it for a nominal charge). Even without wireless, that's what the better coffee shops are really about anyway: People go there primarily to hang out, not to get a good deal on coffee.

Whether customers will accept that (even if the cost works out to be the same) is another question, however...

Re:Idiot business majors

[mattwarden]

I don't know. I think they might be flirting with the idea of allowing ordering over the iPhone when there are lines and/or you don't want to deal with idiot cashiers getting your order wrong.

McD's isn't stupid, and I don't understand why they are offering free wifi. There has to be a bigger plan.

Re:Idiot business majors

[DrgnDancer]

So do the Americans ones, but it's not all that good. They overdo the flavor syrups, and don't appear to have any way to really customize your order. Swung into one on a car trip recently and gave the "coffee bar" a try. It was fast, and wasn't awful by any stretch, but under normal circumstances I'd much rather a local coffee shop or a Starbucks. I'd order it again under similar circumstances (I happened to be there anyway kind of circumstances), but I wouldn't go there for the coffee for sure.

Re:Idiot business majors

[dbIII]

They overdo the flavor syrups

Urk ... sounds like they are trying to be Starbucks there in having flavor syrups in the first place. In Australia it's pretty well just like thousands of other Italian inspired coffee places with limited range but something that at least tastes like coffee. I wouldn't go there specificly for it since it's the same as a lot of other places and no cheaper. Starbucks crashed and burned in Australia since there were already a lot of european style coffee places before they got here. Even the donut kiosks do better coffee so they were doomed bringing in a watered down American style coffee at a higher price than the Italian style coffee which is everywhere.
Anyway, the places with WiFi appear to have all been recently refurbished with the Cafe bit and some extra seating outside.

Re:Idiot business majors

[DrgnDancer]

Yeah, at least here they're going for a "Flavored Latte" approach to fancy coffee. The machine they have is a normal espresso machines, and I don't see any reason that they couldn't just make a regular cappuccino or straight espresso, but I didn't notice either of those on the menu (I probably should have asked, I might have been happier with the result). What I got tasted like a Starbucks' flavored latte that got an extra squirt or two of flavor syrup. Like I said: it wasn't awful, but it was not what I would have chosen to drink in a "real" cafe. If I ever happen to go into a McDonald's for breakfast again (Likely to happen on road trips), I'll probably order it in preference to a Coke, but I'd drive past a McDonald's to get to a local place or even a Starbucks anytime.

Re:Since when does McDonald's want 'sticky' custom

[Dahamma]

Absolutely true. Also the fact their straws were (don't know if it's still true) a little wider than average so that customers would finish their drinks faster.

Why the heck they would want people to stay in their stores longer now I have no idea. Then again, why the heck anyone who can afford a laptop would want to hang out in their nasty ass stores, let alone EAT there, I have no idea either.

Re:Since when does McDonald's want 'sticky' custom

[CodeBuster]

Has it changed its mind recently?

Apparently, but some franchisees are complaining (rightly IMHO) about "too much" turnaround time in their restaurants. The "fast turnaround" has always been a selling point, either stated or implied, for any potential McDonalds franchisee. For those of you who don't know or have never owned a franchise many business details are NOT up to you the owner, but rather are spelled out in your franchise agreement with the franchise owners (i.e. the McDonalds Corporation). So for example, if the franchise owners decide that all locations will now offer fancy coffee then you must pay for and have the necessary equipment installed even if you don't think that such expansion would be worth the cost in your particular location, perhaps a truck stop in the midwest were overcooked eggs and plain black coffee are the "traditional" breakfast. In this case McDonalds has mandated that you provide WiFi access to customers because the marketing drones at corporate have decided that all hip restaurants catering to the under thirty crowd must offer free WiFi to be relevant. However, this may be the first time that a new directive from corporate has conflicted with a long standing element of the core business (which many franchisees count on for their profitability), namely fast turnaround of tables in the dinning area.

Simple solution

[Anonymous Coward]

A simple solution : print an access code on tickets you receive when buying some food. Should only be unique and valid for a couple of minutes. Access code expired ? Buy more stuff or get the hell out ! Solved.

Re:Wish they'd dump the EULA

[dbIII]

Download Opera, then click the silly link and you can do whatever afterwards (ssh using putty, email, whatever).

Free Wi-Fi at Mickey D's - Not in N.Z.

[Anonymous Coward]

Most of our Libraries don't even have free internet... let alone Wi-Fi.

Panera bread doesn't have chicken nuggets

[tjstork]

I've been to Panera Bread and honestly its too crowded for wifi to be any fun. The food's pretty good, for sure, but it's like $25 for myself and my wife to get the soup + sandwich combo, a cookie and soda each.

By comparison, I can go to a McDonald's, and for $4 I can get four McDoubles, which, will not only fill you up, but also keep you pretty regular. Now Panera is pretty good - although their soups are ridiculously salty, but, are they better 6 times better than McDonalds? I think not.

Re:Panera bread doesn't have chicken nuggets

[JWSmythe]

    Down it with one of their large fully synthesized shakes, and you'll clear out all the toxins you just ate. Mmmm.. Nothing makes you run for the bathroom than their chemical shakes..

    Panera usually has better stuff. I'm selective about what I eat from there, so the nutritional value of anything from there is much better than what I can get at McD. Then again, when I order from McD, it's not all that bad, because I don't put all the slop (err, sauces), cheese, etc on it.

Re:Panera bread doesn't have chicken nuggets

[tjstork]

I'm selective about what I eat from there

I would be willing to bet that McDonalds and Panera share more than a few suppliers for their products. I think selectivity in food probably doesn't actually buy you too much in the long run. The human body has evolved to eat some genuinely sick stuff, and even the Golden Arches is a damn site better than a few bits of rib meat from a four day dead Zebra. If there's a problem with McDonalds, and other modern foods, medical science seems more to conclude that the food is actually -too good- for us, and so we get fat. I think the only thing one can do is probably fast one day a week, to simulate the conditions for which we are bred.

Re:Panera bread doesn't have chicken nuggets

[ion.simon.c]

OT comment about your sig:

Whaddya think of KDE 4.2.x? :D
Also, I've never used QT Creator. *downloads it*

Re:Panera bread doesn't have chicken nuggets

[jonaskoelker]

the food is actually -too good- for us

weeeeell...

Since the natural world is fairly low on salt, sugar and fat, we're built to want as much as possible, because it practice that was the best way to get as close as possible to the optimum.

Because our modern world is different, our bodies' way of aiming for optimal is broken. Too much fat is bad for you, as we all know.

Similarly, we figure out if we get oxygen enough not by measuring oxygen but my measuring CO_2 which back then was a good enough approximation of a lack of oxygen. Nitrogen fools us into not worrying about oxygen concentration when in fact we need to.

I think the only thing one can do is probably fast one day a week, to simulate the conditions for which we are bred.

We were also built to cope with large amounts of pain. That doesn't mean we should inflict it upon ourselves just to get a more true simulation.

Showing some care about your diet while not going to the other extreme is probably the right thing to do. Golden mean and all that ;)

Re:Panera bread doesn't have chicken nuggets

[ciderVisor]

Ooh! where are the outlets that serve this? Sounds yummy!

Edinburgh, Scotland.

Re:Panera bread doesn't have chicken nuggets

[Trouvist]

Though I'm a whore for Visual Studio + Visual Assist X (I have to develop for windows apps), QT Creator has become my new standard IDE for linux. I use it for writing non-QT apps in c++ and it's great. The out-of-the-box Subversion integration kicks ass too.

Re:Panera bread doesn't have chicken nuggets

[tjstork]

Whaddya think of KDE 4.2.x? :D
Also, I've never used QT Creator. *downloads it*

I think KDE 4.2 is bad-ass. I give it 3.5 out of 4 stars. This is from someone who has posted that Vista is better than Ubuntu or Kubuntu. I couldn't stand KDE 4.0 but I really like KDE 4.2. It's got that ease of use that I like so much about Gnome but it also has the workmanship and flexibility that I like from KDE. I would say that its as good as Vista in -some- areas, and arguably better in others. The assignment of applets to the task bar is better in KDE - actually always has been, but Vista still has way better common file dialogs.

QT Creator is pretty cool. I made a simple application that looks at SVG files and pulls stuff out, displaying them, and it was pretty easy to do in Qt Creator. I could not figure out how to get the forms editor to blend with normal edited code, but I'm sure there is a way. The forms editor itself is much better than the resource editor that comes with Visual Studio, the signals and slots mechanism is interesting coming from an MFC style event binding mechanism, and, above all, the class help is indexed much better than the SDK help is in Visual C++.

I would say that Visual Studio is still better for general C++ development because the intellisense works better... but you can certainly make pretty damned applications for Linux and in some ways Linux is better. I've had 64 bit Linux running for four years now and Microsoft cannot bring a 64 bit Windows to my machine because there is no signed SATA controller driver. Me wonders, how does Linux make all of these drivers for free, when they have no money?

Microsoft needs to move off their laurels because Linux tools are really recapturing the lead in C++. Microsoft needs to make Visual C++ 10.0 a killer for writing native code applications, or they are looking at Linux making a major development breakout and keeping the lead in native code development for a couple of years.

Re:Panera bread doesn't have chicken nuggets

[JWSmythe]

    Actually, I'm pretty sure my selective eating does a good bit for me.

    It's not just the fried vs grilled vs whatever.. I prefer rare beef, but I also eat well cooked chicken and fish. Well, except sushi, which is obviously not well cooked if done right. :) A good meat is a nice thick steak, that was on a BBQ for long enough to barely cook the outside (hot enough to kill surface contaminants) and just body temperature inside. Bring on the fresh kill Zebra! :)

    I don't like sauces, so no mayo, mustard, McD superspecial sauce, etc, etc.

    I prefer vegetables raw over cooked, so usually both are out. McD lettuce and tomato that they provide on their sandwiches may as well have been in the back of a truck for a month. I have yet to get one that tastes like I should really eat it. Panera is usually better there.

    I'm not a health nut though. I do like my fizzy caffeine drinks. :) I love french fries, but not from McD. I like to make them myself, fresh from cutting up potato's. I still fry them in vegetable oil. Mine taste good. McD don't. I don't think Panera offers fries. :)

    As for starving myself one day a week, I'm pretty close to it. I don't eat breakfast. I eat a small lunch, and sometimes a small dinner. I haven't been very active for a few years now (mostly desk jockey), so I don't get very hungry. I keep my blood sugar up with soda for most of the day, so I don't fall asleep at my desk. Sometimes on weekends I forget to eat. It's just a matter that I'm not that hungry, so I keep doing what I'm doing. My life isn't planned out one meal to the next like some people. :)

Free? Not around here.

[meerling]

I've never found a McDonalds around here that has Free wi-fi, all the ones that have it have charged from day one. (All the McDonalds around here are owned by 2 different people.)

Why does McDonalds need traffic?

[tjstork]

The whole point of McDonalds was to get the people in and get them out, as quickly as possible. IF you go to any decently run McDonalds, there will be several times as many cars as there are in any other food place in the area. Those franchises just print money. Putting in wifi just slows down the presses.

Re:Why does McDonalds need traffic?

[mattwarden]

Which is why it doesn't make sense. There has to be more to it. I think this is step 1 to doing what McD's has always wanted to do... eliminate cashiers. What if there was an iPhone app that let you order from the McD's menu. Would you use it?

Re:Why does McDonalds need traffic?

[DrgnDancer]

Truly? Why an iPhone app? If they really thought this would work, a Kiosk would work better. If you limit your self to an iPhone app (or even an app for most of the major smartphone platforms) you're limiting the possibilities for this "expedited" (that's what they'd call it) service to, at most, 25-30% of the population. Using Kiosks they limit themselves only to the mostly literate. They could go down to one or two cashiers (for the people who aren't literate, and to help the rest). I think they don't do this because they know that people won't like it. Real people give the illusion of service. Honestly, on most occasions, it's more than an illusion. I've only had a few really bad experiences with service in McD's (granted I don't go often). Mostly the people there seem happy to help you, and since they make dirt it doesn't hurt the company much to provide what most people see as at least decent service.

Re:Why does McDonalds need traffic?

[mattwarden]

> Truly? Why an iPhone app?

Because they aren't responsible for the equipment. Remember, these are franchises. Every piece of equipment you add onto the business operations increases the startup costs and reduces the purchases of new franchise licenses.

Additionally, iPhone users are tech savvy people who love their toy. There is WAY more chance of the iPhone ordering process actually being used than a random kiosk sitting there. No one is going to love that kiosk, which you allude to later in your own comment.

> If they really thought this would work, a Kiosk would work better.

Not from a cost-benefit analysis, it isn't.

> If you limit your self to an iPhone app (or even an app for most of the
> major smartphone platforms) you're limiting the possibilities for this
> "expedited" (that's what they'd call it) service to, at most, 25-30% of
> the population.

At extremely little cost! Returns diminish significantly in your attempt to get the next 40-50%.

Re:Since when does McDonald's want 'sticky' custom

[MichaelSmith]

Now that cellular broadband is becoming cheap, public wifi may be on the way out anyway.

Business plan? Maybe MCD is too big to fail

[NotQuiteReal]

I am going for insightful + off topic + troll, I can't see how I lose. (Add funny for this bit of up-front introspection and honesty.)

MCD have no fear! you should be able to get a bailout if needed. You are "too big to fail", right? Based on market cap, compared to many of the big 19 banks MCD should be a shoe-in for a bailout. Add in the "Illinois connection" and it is a slam dunk.

Just think, under current government rules, you don't need a "business plan", you just need to be "necessary"... and, who doesn't need food? (No fat jokes, please. I am working under the "too big to fail" theory and need all the help I can get.)

The government can tell McDonalds that you always get more takers for "free" give-aways, and lose customers when you charge/tax more...

Re:Business plan? Maybe MCD is too big to fail

[Knara]

Ffft. McDonald's is one of the most consistently profitable corporations in history. They're the last company that would need a bailout.

Re:Since when does McDonald's want 'sticky' custom

[Alexandra Erenhart]

While what you say is true, is also true that franchises make differences when it comes to locations, just look at the menues of McDonalds in different countries. They have the "core" products (BigMacs, Quarter pound -which to be honest, in Chile doesn't make one sense because we use METRIC system hehe-), but they also add different items more according to the culture. I think if they can do that, they could also adjust things like WiFi for places where the local mcdonalds doesn't really need to provide that.

Re:Since when does McDonald's want 'sticky' custom

[Culture20]

They don't want sticky customers. The signs in the bathrooms require that employees wash hands. But you know, the last time I was there, no employee would wash my hands... I wanted to complain but people made me leave.

If your hands were sticky after leaving the bathroom stall, the employees were right to refuse service.

Solve the problem with trap doors under the seats

[Centurix]

Tell the users that they can use the wireless until a trap door opens up underneath them and they are dumped into a vat of boiling french fries. Their times are announced by some junior on front counter with a megaphone.

"Come in number 192.168.1.121, your time is up"

Limit by MAC

[SuperKendall]

Seriously, set a time limit on 10 minutes per hour per MAC. Who wants to hang around a McDonalds for 50 minutes just to get ten more minutes of WiFi?

Sure a few people could overcome it but hardly anyone that would be at McDonalds.

Re:What are they complaining about?

[daveime]

Yes, but I don't think someone buying their cheapest coffee and sitting abusing the wi-fi for 3 hours compensates for the lost sales in all the other stuff.

Sure, at 3am, it might fill in some slack spots in their business, but at peak time, they want a regular rotation of clients to maximize peak-hour sales.

Ever tried getting into a Starbucks after about 7pm ? Absolutely jam packed, and invariably everyone is hogging the comfy seats with a laptop and a coffee cup with about 5mm of cold, 3 hour old coffee in the bottom. Starbys can get away with it by selling their coffee at crazy prices, but McDo coffee is dirt cheap (not to mention it also tastes like dirt).

They can't afford malingerers, and in most cases, I'll bet the franchise holders would dump it like a shot if head office would allow them to.

This is a serious problem?

[ring-eldest]

How about disabling the wi-fi during peak times when serving food becomes priority #1? You could even post a nice little sign saying something like: "In order to better service you, free Wi-Fi is available from XX:XX to YY:YY."

Or, you know, making the access available with purchases only, for a set period of time according to dollar amount spent. How about 15 minutes for every 5 dollars, with access codes printed right on the receipt? That seems to solve the problems of everyone worth mentioning. Hell they might even make money off the deal (but that's evil and wrong, amirite?)

Taking a soak

[macraig]

Hey, I was soaking up some of that seating for more than an hour today. If the try to "demarcate" me out of the way, I might just park outside and not even buy anything. Turns out they haven't figured out how to isolate the wireless signals entirely within the building.

Re:Taking a soak

[Winckle]

McFaradayCage

wait...

[AnAdventurer]

People spend 35 minutes in McDonald's?

Wrong headline.

[Alsee]

Business offers customers free wifi, which has the twin effects of attracting more customers and some of them staying longer. This is news? In other breaking news headlines, water is wet!

What caught my eye was the last two paragraphs of the article:

The wifi service is backed by a secure internet gateway product from wholesaler earthwave called Clean Pipes, which is there in part to apply McDonalds' Family Friendly policies to the service.

It had so far not detected any major 'red flag' sessions that had to be reported to law enforcement authorities, a representative of earthwave said.

Why isn't the news story here that McDonalds has a program in place to spy on customer's wifi usage, to get customers arrested?

If my phone company were eaves dropping on my conversations to report to the police, I would have a problem with that.
If my ISP were eaves dropping on my internet phone calls or other communications to report to the police, I would have a problem with that.

If a company is offering free wifi connections, obviously the standards are somewhat different than dealing with my own phone company or my own ISP, however I still consider it outrageous and a primary news item that a company *does* have a program in place to spy on communications over their free wifi, one dedicated to having those customers arrested.

-

Re:Wrong headline.

[ion.simon.c]

This isn't news if the users of McD's wifi have to click through a page that discloses the surveillance program run by Clean Pipes before transmitting a packet to the Internet.

IMO, McD would be insane to set up the system in any other way.

Re:Wrong headline.

[angryphase]

I hope this isn't indicative of the general opinion that is being bred into today's society.

McDonalds are a business that relies on a appeal to families as well as adult customers. Restricting the service like this promotes their own policies as a kid-friendly establishment (ignoring for now their impact on the growth of obesity and unhealthy lifestyles), one of their major requirements as a business. If they are seen to be promoting the freedom to surf porn within their premises then they lose this reputation as kid-friendly. Gone are the families and in come the nerdverts.

Just because they restrict, monitor and flag material that they, or their customers may find offensive (before possibly even passing it onto local authorities) does not make them evildoers, stealing your freedom and liberty. If you are currently employed then don't you think that this is happening in your workplace? Don't you think if they wanted to, people could (and in some cases do) monitor your usage at home already? Ignorance is bliss.

The question that should be asked is: Are McDonalds making their patrons aware that they must adhere to these policies when using this service (ToS, T&Cs)?

Re:Wrong headline.

[Alsee]

Note that I was not objecting to the filtering.

I dislike filtering and think it's generally a dumb idea, but I see nothing particularly objectionable in a person or a company offering pretty much any kin of limited or filtered service they feel like offering.

What I find objectionable is a company offering a communication service, and deliberately snooping on those conversations or other communications. If I have a phone conversation with my wife or my priest or my lawyer or anyone else, they should not be eaves dropping on that conversation, whether it is an ordinary phone line or an internet VOIP call. If I log into Slashdot or my bank account, they should not be eaves dropping on my password. If I go to Google or Wikipedia, they should not be eaves dropping on my searches for STDs or breast cancer or Scientology or anything else.

I find it extremely objectionable that they are deliberately snooping on customer's communications, and I find it outrageous that they are doing so explicitly to use against their customers.

If someone at the phone company were to do this, WE WOULD PUT THEM IN PRISON.

If some company were to offer free phone service, and they did this, WE WOULD PUT THEM IN PRISON.

Just because a phone call is done by Voice Over IP does not change the fact that the communication provider should not be snooping on that conversation. Just because my communication is digital rather than voice does not change the fact that the communication provider should not be snooping on my conversations.

If McDonald's wants to offer free phone service, but "filters" to only offer free local calls or otherwise limits the approved destinations that can be called, fine. But they should not be snooping on those calls, and they most especially should not be abusing their physical access to those communications to use against their customers.

If McDonalds wants to offer free car washes while you sit down and eat, great! But I am going to scream bloody murder if I discover McDonald's is directing its employees to search my trunk looking for drugs or dead bodies to report to the police.

-

Re:Since when does McDonald's want 'sticky' custom

[TihSon]

Clearly you do not live in Canada ... now if you will please excuse me, I must get back to winding my cellphone for tomorrow.

Re:Since when does McDonald's want 'sticky' custom

[MichaelSmith]

I don't get your point. Probably because I don't live in Canada.

Free?

[Apro im]

McDonald's wifi isn't free. Boingo, iPass, etc all federate to Wayport in McDonalds. It is free to AT&T Internet customers, but not the populace at large.

Re:Free?

[jsight]

McDonald's wifi isn't free. Boingo, iPass, etc all federate to Wayport in McDonalds. It is free to AT&T Internet customers, but not the populace at large.

I am amazed that in the hundreds of comments here, yours is the only post I've seen pointing that out. I wonder why they don't manage to turn it into a profit center if there really is such high usage?

Why the hell...

[FunWithKnives]

Does Slashdot suddenly have an icon for McDonalds, of all things? All fast food is shit, but McDonalds is the king of shit. Why did someone decide to take the time, whether it was a minute or an hour, to create an icon for that shithole? Just resize a stock photo of some fat-ass walking down the street and call it a day.

Re:Why the hell...

[LiquidFire_HK]

It's not an icon for McDonalds, it's just a picture accompanying the story like some stories have.

Re:Since when does McDonald's want 'sticky' custom

[EdIII]

Quarter pound -which to be honest, in Chile doesn't make one sense because we use METRIC system

Well then.. what do you call a Quarter pounder in Chile?

Take our marbles, and go home....

[rts008]

And they did not account for this?
Sounds short-sighted from here. No judgment, just facts that were observable from many other's comments.

Are 'that' many businesses so stupid to think that 'wifi', or 'connected to the internet' will save their business model?
That's sad, from the PHB's input being so valuable.

Either offer wifi to boost business, or stay with your 'move as many consumers as possible in x-time' model.

If you are doing your job as a PHB, this should be a 'no-brainer'.
If not, then your dumb ass should be fired to make room for someone with a clue.
Hint: the 'business world' is changing...dramatically, and by the second...not even by the 'minute'. Get 'on' it, or 'under' it, the choice is yours....'sink, or swim'...

Marketing is fer dummies...

[Anachragnome]

Who makes these decisions?

Buying more seats sounds like the best solution to me.

Veggies

[Aceticon]

I would be willing to bet that McDonalds and Panera share more than a few suppliers for their products. I think selectivity in food probably doesn't actually buy you too much in the long run. The human body has evolved to eat some genuinely sick stuff, and even the Golden Arches is a damn site better than a few bits of rib meat from a four day dead Zebra. If there's a problem with McDonalds, and other modern foods, medical science seems more to conclude that the food is actually -too good- for us, and so we get fat. I think the only thing one can do is probably fast one day a week, to simulate the conditions for which we are bred.

One could argue that "The human body has evolved to eat some genuinely sick stuff". Then again, the human body has also evolved for us to live long enough to pass on our genes and help our progeny become independent - that's less than 30 years - anything beyond that is not a significant evolutionary advantage.

Notice how the predominance of cancer is much higher in societies where the average life expectancy is higher than 30 years old ...

I for one, would like to live a long time and be as healthy as possible during that period - hence being selective with food is important.

Basically:

If it looks like a cauliflower, a pea, broccoli or a Brussels's sprout then it probably is a cauliflower, pea, broccoli or a Brussels's sprout.

If it's mashed paste of stuff, optionally cooked or baked (like bread, hamburgers, sausages, mash potatoes) then all bets are off and anything can be mixed in.

The more processed a piece of food is, the more likely it's full of all sorts of things that won't harm you on the short term (if it outright killed you or harmed you the manufacturer would be sued and closed) but might harm you on the long term (good luck proving the link between some artificial additive that was in those hamburgers you use to eat when you were a teen and the colon cancer you got 10 years latter).

If you want good healthy food, go for fresh vegetables (and fruit, meat and fish) instead of the processed kind.

Re:Veggies

[ciderVisor]

I had a whole bag of Dolly Mixtures last night. If I croak today, I'll leave you my /. Karma in my will.

Re:Veggies

[scottbell]

If you want good healthy food, go for fresh vegetables (and fruit, meat and fish) instead of the processed kind.

Unless it's tainted spinach. Or tainted peanuts. Or tainted organic eggs. Or tainted organic sesame seeds. Or tainted organic alfalfa....

Schizoid Corps

[redelm]

Sounds like a normal, Dilbert-day in the corporate whirld! Some people want one thing, others think they're crazy. Neanderthal decision-makers choose to offend the maximum number of participants to show power. (There is no personal power visible or shown in doing the right thing).

If there are fairness issues, just enable MACs (not the Big ones:) for 30 min per hour. Yes, 'leet gekes can get 'round this easily, but a few leeches isn't the problem. If someone complains moderately justifiably, reset the router.

Of course put in fine print (limited to 30 minutes) to minimize the justifiable whining and make the leeches come out where you can pour salt on them. Not all customers are worthwhile. Some need to be told not tot return/trespass. If you resemble this and the allusion offends you, good. You offend others (often deliberately) and need to feel what you inflict. Fortunately, this probably occurs frequently.

Re:Schizoid Corps

[OneSmartFellow]

If you resemble this and the allusion offends you, good. You offend others (often deliberately) and need to feel what you inflict.

I agree completely. The days of having your goodwill abused while being expected to sit silently holding your tongue is coming to an end. If your idea of freedom is to take personal advantage of every situation, regardless of the effects upon others, without contributing anything in return, you are an ignorant ass-hat. Be prepared to be 'learned'.

Re:Schizoid Corps

[YouDoNotWantToKnow]

'Neanderthal decision-makers choose to offend the maximum number of participants to show power. (There is no personal power visible or shown in doing the right thing).' Wow. I will take a good note of this into my 'future manager' notebook. Thanks man.

Re:Schizoid Corps

[Fantastic Lad]

If there are fairness issues, just enable MACs (not the Big ones:) for 30 min.

Yeah, I think 'sandwiches' are only allowed to sit under a heat lamp for 15 minutes before the McPloyees have to throw them out.

-FL

McDonalds in Korea

[Anonymous Coward]

To maximize seating efficiency at peak times, in Korea McDonalds apparently has ushers that will place customers in empty seats next to other customers.

Choice of music is another tool commonly used to influence how long customers stay. At peak times, they'll play up-beat songs. At off-peak times they'll play more soothing music to encourage people to hang around longer, so as to avoid having the place look like a ghost town.

And there's always the 'Can I take your tray sir/madam' line when they're getting desperate. I get that one a lot when I'm half-finished, annoys the crap out of me. So I like to chew, what's wrong with that?

Re:McDonalds in Korea

[pandrijeczko]

This explains why staying away from the plasticized corporate world of McDonalds is a good thing.

Define kid friendly

[Lord of Kaos]

You're not talking about the food, are you?

Re:Since when does McDonald's want 'sticky' custom

[yzf750]

Well then.. what do you call a Quarter pounder in Chile?

McRoyale with cheese, motherfucker?

Story a coulpe of years ago

[Alistair Hutton]

There was a Slahsdot article a few years ago about a coffee shop that got rid of it's free wifi and found that sales and profits when up as all the seat blockers buggered off somewhere else to get their free bandwidth from.

Re:Simpleton solution.....

[atraintocry]

You know how when you're done eating the waiter or waitress usually comes over to ask if you want either (a) dessert or (b) the check? They're not trying to make conversation with you, they want you to either spend money or get out of the chair.

There are a lot of nice coffee shops where they won't do that, they make you feel at home, etc. But not all of them are like that, and in what way is preferring a paying customer to one who's already finished indicative of scumbaggery?

"Goat head"...wonder if they taught you that when you got one of your many degrees :P

Simplest solution

[91degrees]

Stop offering free Wi-fi.

Seems that it's a net cost. The extra custom doesn't cover the increased cost of requiring more tables. Not quite sure what the point is.

Stop posing and read a book!

[pandrijeczko]

I'm a geek just like most other Slashdotters but my experiences of going into coffee shops (I can't remember the last time I went to a McDonald's) is that the people using wi-fi in there tend to be ignorant social misfits, usually students, who are just showing of their new Mac laptop and who sprawl out across 4 seats so that nobody else can sit down - whilst drinking one small cup of the cheapest coffee they can buy but spreading it out over 4 days.

Personally, they don't look much to me like people with such busy lives that they can't disconnect themselves from the Internet for 30 minutes and go take a break - hell, maybe even go with a friend and have a C-O-N-V-E-R-S-A-T-I-O-N, or even just read a book.

The solution is to have two distinct areas, one with wifi and one without - let the misfits pose to each other in the wifi zone whilst the part of the human race that still has communication skills and social awareness goes in the other one.

Re:Stop posing and read a book!

[HikingStick]

Wow. I can't believe anyone would cast such a broad net with such a derogatory and inaccurate stereotype.

I'm one of those who has parked at coffee shops for hours. Sometimes it was as a student in an adult degree completion program. The coffee shop was much more condusive to my studies than home, where toddlers and pre-teens raised a continual ruckus. Unlike the "social misfits" of your stereotype, I likely came across as a typical middle-class working stiff who happened to be carrying a bag full of books and a laptop. I made sure to make at least one purchase per hour while there, and definately not something in the bottom pricing tier. I knew I was paying for my time, even though no time limits were posted (or enforced). It's like when I was back in high school and a group of friends and I used to hang out at Denny's late on Friday nights. We'd occupy one of their largest booths for an hour or two, but we made sure we not only ordered something substantive, but we also tipped heavily (each of us chipping in a couple of bucks so that the gal would end up with a $10-$20 tip each time we were there, and that was in the '80s). [That also had the unexpected benefit of getting us seated quickly on even the most crowded nights.] Anyway, back to dissecting your stereotype, and your solution...

So, you know how busy someone is by how they look, huh? What a gift! Had it not occurred to you that those you see as 'loitering' or 'Wi-Fi-squatting' (or whatever your preferred term may be) could actually be there doing something other than just mindless surfing? In my former position, I was on an on-call rotation. Whenever I was on-call and knew I needed to be online beceause there was testing going on, or because a major project was in process, I usually parked at a location with free Wi-Fi access, so I could monitor the situation and provide support as needed. Coffee shops were also another place where I enjoy grading student work (from my part-time teaching gig).

Sure, suggest that they segregate the building by Wi-Fi and non-Wi-Fi zones. That'll work about as well as smoking and non-smoking sections in restaurants. You won't be able to stop the signal bleed unless you want to pour major dollars into limiting technologies. McDonalds made this bed, and now they need to sleep in it.

If they want to reduce the time people sit in their booths and at their tables, they need to consider two things. First, they could key Wi-Fi access to a code on the receipt, with each receipts providing x minutes of access. It's not likely to be well-received, but they could do it. During the busiest times of the day, not many people will want to go through the line a second time to get another receipt. Second, and perhaps more importantly, McDonalds should stop trying to give the impression that it wants the "coffee shop consumer" in its restaurants. If their primary focus is on table turnover and sales, they should not be marketing products and inducements that encourage people to stay a while. Sure, it sounded great to offer free Wi-Fi to get all of those business people who may want to check email over lunch, but they didn't do their homework to understand how a road warrior will use Internet access. Sure, they wanted to move to upscale coffee drinks to convince some parents (mostly moms) that they could hang out there and zone a bit while their kids are in the Play Place. Heck, the Play Place itself is no good for turnover. Even with posted time limits, most users of the play place are occupying tables far longer than 10 minutes.

So, I'm sorry some grungy Mac-geek student sprawled over your favorite seating area at some coffee shop on numerous occasions, but lay off the attacks on the rest of us. You're already probably working for one of us.

Re:Stop posing and read a book!

[Fantastic Lad]

It's different, so it's bad.

I liked how Tolkien put it, when the hobbits from one end of the Shire called those from the other end, "Queer" and vice versa, when basically they were the same brand of small, silly people.

Personally, my guess is that the poster has forgotten his time in, (or never went to) university and envies the students their youth and seemingly privileged lives. (Not counting the $30,000 in student loans and stress about having to pick a career, etc.) --While he has to work a tough day job.

-FL

Re:Stop posing and read a book!

[pandrijeczko]

The coffee shop was much more condusive to my studies than home, where toddlers and pre-teens raised a continual ruckus.

Ever heard of a place called a "public library"? Surely the quiet environment in there would have been even more condusive to your studies...

In my former position, I was on an on-call rotation. Whenever I was on-call and knew I needed to be online beceause there was testing going on, or because a major project was in process, I usually parked at a location with free Wi-Fi access, so I could monitor the situation and provide support as needed.

Based on my own 25 years experience as some kind of IT techie, I'd suggest that a coffee shop's wifi is probably not the best thing to be reliant upon if you're on call. Not to mention the issue of security where you're running work applications over a public access point. I hope the encryption was strong...

but they didn't do their homework to understand how a road warrior will use Internet access.

That, my friend, is my single most pet hate about the job I do - that stupid, stupid phrase "road warrior" - I hardly think the Mad Max imagery in that phrase applies to the fat, middle-aged bald bloke with a laptop and a "Fat Bald Bloke Of Borg" Bluetooth earpiece poking out of his lug-hole!

So, I'm sorry some grungy Mac-geek student sprawled over your favorite seating area at some coffee shop on numerous occasions, but lay off the attacks on the rest of us. You're already probably working for one of us.

Actually, it sounds more like you ought to be paying me for some of my telecoms and security consultancy knowledge, Mr Road Warrior... the first thing I'd do is see how much information you're giving away about your company over that public wifi and people looking over your shoulder at your laptop screen...

Re:Stop posing and read a book!

[Just Some Guy]

Weird. The only times I've used coffee shop Wi-Fi were when I was at Barnes and Noble and wanted to get some book reviews before buying.

Re:Stop posing and read a book!

[HikingStick]

I work in the field. I always picked a shelterd location when there for work--screen to a wall or corner. Client-side firewall on before the card came on, and then an immediate launch of our VPN client, RADIUS authentication with an RSA token... Never a breach (had there been, you would have heard about it in the news).

The library in my hometown (exurban/rural) has very limited hours, so that wasn't an option. Besides, I wanted a triple espresso and a muffin. I could neither get those nor consume those at the library (whether in my current home town, or in the city where I lived previously).

I didn't coin the phrase "road warrior" for business people who remotely connect on a regular basis. I just use the term as used in the vernacular of the day.

I've been in the industry a long time, too, though not as long as your 25 years (I only have 16 to my credit). My former employer had over 1,100 employees and I was (for many years there) responsible for supporting a department of 100 travelers, before I moved to the IT security function. I know the risks, and I know the compensating controls. The point of my post was to counter a stereotype that the majority of those who park at Wi-Fi hotspots are self-centered ego-stroking tech-braggards who want to represent themselves as part of some lifestlye or subculture. My point was that there are those of us who have other reasons for being there aside from surfing the web, and that not all of us take advantage of free Wi-Fi by purchasing the cheapest item on the menu.

In closing, I'm not a road warrior. I'm an IT manager who uses free Wi-Fi when I have a need. From reading articles some years ago as McDonald's planned to pilot Wi-Fi, I remember that "road warriors" were the crowd McDonald's was attempting to target, so that's the audience McDonald's was trying to please--now at the displeasure of some of their franchise owners. Although I'm not hiring security services at the moment, were I in a position to do so, I'd pass you by. There's a fine line between pointing out legitimate risks and belittling those you wish to educate, serve, and support. You crossed that line and there'd be no place for you here.

Re:Stop posing and read a book!

[pandrijeczko]

With all respect to you, I wasn't touting for business either - but I suggest as an IT manager you yourself need to learn a little more politeness in your responses also.

I actually consider it quite rude if I'm sat down enjoying a coffee that someone is sprawled out on 4 seats or talking loudly on a mobile phone because that's where he or she has chosen to conduct their business - call me old fashioned but if someone rings me on a mobile in a place of relaxation then I immediately step out the door to take the call.

Sorry, but if you can't pull yourself away from work for 20 minutes to sit quietly and enjoy a coffee, then either bugger off out of the shop until you can or go organise your job better.

OpenDNS may work for public wi-fi

[Ilgaz]

If you set the DNS to OpenDNS on router level and block outgoing DNS traffic from clients (mostly not needed), set it very strict, e.g. no piracy sites, no porn (obvious), not even lingerie, no proxies (so they can't bypass), most of sticky and shameless give up in about 10-20 mins.

Oh if they say you are censoring? Well, they can subscribe to Cell company 3G and even EDGE and use their _own_ bandwidth for whatever they do. It is a public/free service, "a privilege, not a right" in IRC fashion.

http://www.opendns.com/

I know you can achieve all with own stuff but opendns is just couple of clicks and please don't tell me how to bypass it with direct IP etc. I know.

It's all in the seating

[zbharucha]

Have you ever wondered why bus stops have such pathetic seating? It's usually just a piece of metal not much thicker than an outstretched palm (OK, this is not very common, but it can be like that). The reason is that they don't want vagrants occupying the seats - certainly not over a long period of time. McD can solve their problem very easily. Just make the seating in the wifi enabled parts of their restaurant really, really crappy. People won't linger for long that way.

Re:Since when does McDonald's want 'sticky' custom

[Ilgaz]

Recently McDonalds decided to race with Starbucks etc. coffee shops. It is also related to "fast food" phobia, like 150 mg of caffeine won't really break anything :)

So, free Wi-Fi and attempts to change decoration etc. are all related to it. They also attempt to offer local tastes in hamburger form which are generally slower to eat.

IMHO McDonalds is also thinking about "...must read... while eating something..." people which includes me :) Well, for that, cell phone+rss reader is enough.

Bullshit for nutrition snobs

[Moraelin]

problem is they are empty "calories" meaning they are just calories and not much more. what we need is lots of different nutrients calories are easy to come by these days but it wasnt always that way so we like them when we can get them and our bodies store the extra calories in fat and since we dont burn them it just accumulates.

Bullshit. There is no such thing as "empty calories". That very concept is on par with those who sell you some holistic natural salt based on claims that its mollecules are more jagged like the natural ones, not round and unnatural like the industrial made ones. Or on par with the audiophile-grade network cables. It's bullcrap for idiots who want to feel all superior about their nutrition, but aren't actually smart or educated enough to understand nutrition.

For a start pretty much any animal meat will contain the same aminoacids (in its proteins) as your body is made of. There is very little you can do, short of incinerating that meat to a fine ash, to destroy those and be left with "empty calories."

Do you understand that? There is no fucking thing that McDonald can do to a piece of beef or chicken (while still keeping it edible at all) to stop it from having the exact same 20 aminoacids that your body uses or needs.

Also your body is very good at synthetising various things from various other things. E.g., sugars get turned into fats and viceversa. (Which is why Atkins works or why drinking will give you a fat liver.) E.g., over half the aminoacids can be synthetised from other stuff, and viceversa.

Even "empty calories" would still have their use, since the above synthesis takes energy, same as anything your body uses. It has to come from somewhere.

But again, there is no such thing as "empty calories". There are sugars, fats, proteins, etc, which incidentally your body can all burn to energy. Or use in other ways.

"Different types of calories" and storing the different types as fat? Do you even know what a calory is, junior? Or what fat is? It's the same fat stored in your cells either way. If your body can convert something into fat, it will be the same fat which is used as an energy reserve. As the _same_ kind of energy reserve, as it'll get converted into glucose first when it's needed as fuel.

There is no such thing as storing, say, vitamins or proteins as fat for later.

So do yourself a favour. If you want to talk about nutrition, read about nutrition, not sensationalist pseudo-science or sensationalist propaganda.

Re:Bullshit for nutrition snobs

[AdamWeeden]

I'm no nutritionist, but I've always understood the term "empty calories" in a slightly different way then you are using it. Empty calories, in the way it has been explained to me, doesn't refer to the nutritional value per calorie, but more in the ability to satisfy appetite per calorie. For example a large salad will fill you up with a relatively small amount of calories. A bottle of soda (non-diet) is likely to have more calories, and will fill you up less (if at all). Thus the soda is considered empty calories because you have consumed calories without impacting your hunger, which causes you to consume more calories.

Re:Bullshit for nutrition snobs

[Anonymous Coward]

The term, "empty calories" comes from the radical idea that we need more than fats, carbohydrates and proteins in our diets to maintain health, even if those substances aren't used for energy. Food processing removes a lot of those other things and even transforms some things into useless or toxic chemicals (e.g. trans fatty acids). Try reading a nutrition book that was written after the 1960's.

We're still discovering things in food that are important for health. If you want to base your diet on incomplete science and eat purified fats, proteins and carbohydrates, you're welcome to it, but please don't get a job as a dietician at my kid's school.

Re:Bullshit for nutrition snobs

[PJ1216]

There is no fucking thing that McDonald can do to a piece of beef or chicken (while still keeping it edible at all) to stop it from having the exact same 20 aminoacids that your body uses or needs.

Actually, there is something they can do to that beef or chicken to remove a lot of the nutritional value in it. They can cook it. Hate to break it to you, but thats also what happens when you cook the beef at home too. Thats the whole basis of a raw food diet. Cooking removes a majority of the nutrients in the food you eat simply by destroying the various nutrients in there. Did you think cooking just warmed it up? No, it physically changes the actual composition of the meat. Why do you think it turns brown? Cooked meat does *not* have the same nutritional value as raw meat. It has *much* less.

In any case though, I agree with your general point that there's not much difference between "types" of calories. A calorie is just a unit of heat. More specifically, its the amount of heat that it takes to raise the temperature of 1 gram(? double check that mass if you'd like cause i'm not sure) of water by 1 degree Celsius at STP. So, if you burned 100 calories of Coca Cola, thats how much heat is given off (or at least approximated since theoretical and physical results never match up). Also, in the US a Calorie is different than a calorie. A Calorie is a kilocalorie. This is why you'll see most foreign foods say kcal instead of cal because they don't try to hide it. You need 2000 kilocalories in your diet, not 2000 calories.

Re:Bullshit for nutrition snobs

[Hognoxious]

There is no such thing as "empty calories".

If you're interpreting that to mean flee floating, disembodied calories then you're right. Except that isn't what it means.

A classic example would be a bottle of Vodka.

Re:Bullshit for nutrition snobs

[Hognoxious]

You might want to look at some recent studies on the efficiency of digestion on raw versus cooked food.

Re:Bullshit for nutrition snobs

[Hatta]

I would encourage you to try a diet of pure carbohydrates, and see how empty those calories actually are. When your gums start bleeding from scurvy, you might appreciate the fact that there's more than just calories to nutrition.

Re:Bullshit for nutrition snobs

[wall0159]

You are wrong and the GPP is correct.

"There is no such thing as empty calories"
pure sugar contains calories, but has little nutritional value. Just so you know, calories are one component of nutrition - have you heard of scurvy?

"short of incinerating that meat to a fine ash"
while I wouldn't argue that cooking destroys meat's food value, it certainly changes it.

"contain the same aminoacids ... as your body is made of"
and..? People need more than calories and amino acids. Have you not heard of vitamins?

"E.g., sugars get turned into fats and viceversa. (Which is why Atkins works or why drinking will give you a fat liver.) " and
"[fat will] get converted into glucose ..."
these two demonstrate that you don't know what you are talking about. Firstly, people _cannot_ convert fat into glucose: we lack that ability.
Secondly, Atkins diet is controversial - blithely saying it "works" is stupid.

"There is no such thing as storing, say, vitamins or proteins as fat for later."
This is pretty much the only correct thing in your post (as far as I know).

"So do yourself a favour. If you want to talk about nutrition, read about nutrition"
I think you should take your own advice. The person you are criticising is actually correct, it is YOU who are wrong.

(I have already moderated in this discussion, but parent is so wrong AND aggressive I had to reply. Can people please refrain from speaking so strongly about that which they know so little?!?)

Re:Bullshit for nutrition snobs

[ukyoCE]

I don't think "empty calories" refers to meat, typically. Like you said, meat provides all the proteins you need. The burgers are one of the few (relatively) healthy things at McDonalds.

But what about a the giant sodas? Do you think drinking 600 calories of sugar is a nutritious way to get those calories on a daily basis? (presumably you're only eating ~2,000 calories a day, right?)

Likewise for various refined carbs or deep fried foods. Potatoes aren't that bad, but if you eat 1200 calories of which 600 are sugar-water and 600 are deep fried potatoes, that's 3/5 of your daily calories without getting complete proteins or many vitamins.

This is what the idea of "empty calories" refers to. You're going to get those calories regardless of what you eat. It's preferable to get those calories by eating foods that have nutrition in them beyond simple calories. Eg. meat, beans, fruit, and whole grains.

If you really disagree with the "empty calories" idea, go ahead and get 100% of your calories from soda for a few weeks and let us know how that works out for you.

I don't disagree though that the GP was mumbling some fairly incrompehensible newage nonsense. I think he may have been implying that soda is typically 600 calories ON TOP OF your healthy 2,000 calorie diet, and thus those extra 600 calories will stick around as fat.

Re:Bullshit for nutrition snobs

[Whorhay]

My impression was that the more cooked a food is the easier it is to digest. Meaning the energy and such that has survived the cooking process is more easily derived by the digestive tract. But cooking food still destroys some of those nutrients, nutrients being things like vitamins and minerals. I thought it was a particularly strong effect in vegetables.

McDo

[Weezul]

I only buy food from MacDonalds when I need wifi. :)

What???

[rts008]

Learn the concept of paragraphs if you want your comments read.

No, I did not bother.

Re:What???

[ColaMan]

Learn the concept of paragraphs if you want your comments read.
No, I did not bother.

That's too bad. He had a few good points in there.

By all means, feel free to suggest to him that shorter paragraphs are useful on the web, to help people with a low IQ and short attention spans more easily digest what you write. The screen is a different medium to paper after all, so a paragraph of that size - that wouldn't be too out of place in a good textbook - is a little on the chunky side here.

But your blatant "make it easy for me or fuck off" attitude is disheartening. No, don't bother to try and comprehend the point he's trying to make, it's just not worth the outrageous mental effort required to read 10 whole lines of continuous text.

I am by no means a Rhodes scholar, but if your attitude is typical of today - and there's plenty of evidence to suggest that it is - well, I weep for the future.

Re:What???

[ResidntGeek]

I am by no means a Rhodes scholar

Maybe you could be, if you gave things more thought. The GP poster wasn't being lazy, and readability isn't a matter of making it "easy" for someone, it's a matter of making it READABLE. There are things you can do to a group of words that make it much more difficult and slower for the human eye to track them, and for the human brain to comprehend them; you can call people's IQs low and their attention spans short all you want, it doesn't change the fact that most people are going to skip the text, or parts of it, without a second thought. You can argue against human nature, or you can acknowledge it and work with it, it's really up to you.

The GP SHOULD learn the concept of paragraphs if he wants his comments read. That's a simple fact.

Re:Beyond Simple, just apply common sense!

[gravesb]

Really? If you can't be more sympathetic than that, why would you think anyone would be sympathetic to your views? And as far as the manners thing goes, kettle meet pot.

Re:Beyond Simple, just apply common sense!

[Jamie's Nightmare]

I got a vasectomy for a reason.

In your case, wouldn't that be like winterizing a home in Florida?

Re:Simpleton solution.....

[SpringRevolt]

You know how when you're done eating the waiter or waitress [...]

Man, what type of McDonalds do you go to?

Have you missed an "out" or just a comma? :-/

Free Wifi my ass...

[Anonymous Coward]

It may be free in every other fucking nation, but the last time I tried to use McDonald's Wifi service here in the US, it wasn't exactly free. I had to sign up for a $20-a-month account on their damned service just to use Wifi access.

As much as I love their Southern Style Chicken sandwiches, screw McDonald's. I'll go eat somewhere I can get truly free Wifi.

I'm going to Krystal.

- Lazy Georgian Bastard

Re:Free Wifi my ass...

[assassinator42]

I believe the one I ate at the other day now gives you an hour or so free with any purchase if you ask them.
Of course, I have AT&T DSL anyway, so I can just use my account for that.

Re:Since when does McDonald's want 'sticky' custom

[smchris]

That's Taco Bell today. Except the movable chairs grate on the bathroom tile they decorate with.

We chose no wifi

[alohatiger]

My wife and I just opened a frozen yogurt shop* and when I asked about installing wifi she gave a big thumbs down--she wants people to get their yogurt and move on.

So I installed wireless speakers that broadcast at 2.4 GHz to "Jam" the wifi from the coffeehouse next door...

Even Simpler Solution

[LinuxGeek]

I sit in my car and use their free wifi... Much more comfortable than those hard plastic seats, better cup holders too.

Why are they monitoring you?...

[MikeRT]

Why isn't the news story here that McDonalds has a program in place to spy on customer's wifi usage, to get customers arrested? If my phone company were eaves dropping on my conversations to report to the police, I would have a problem with that. If my ISP were eaves dropping on my internet phone calls or other communications to report to the police, I would have a problem with that.

Well, for one, they have a large number of people hopping on and off their network, and they don't maintain a constant business relationship with them which would help them identify rogue or criminal users. And on top of that, a little self-regulation to catch criminals will help them ward off legislation like this which is a Stasi-like surveillance boot-up-the-ass that has support in both parties.

And here's a question for you. Who the hell do you think you are using someone else's network for free and then complaining that they check up on your behavior from time-to-time? This isn't your ISP. This is a private business which is giving you free access to their wireless for your personal enjoyment.

Re:Why are they monitoring you?...

[Alsee]

Who the hell do you think you are using someone else's network for free and then complaining that they check up on your behavior from time-to-time?/

If someone at a phone company decided to eaves drop on customer's phone conversations, WE WOULD PUT THEM IN PRISON.

This isn't your ISP.

If McDonald's or any other company were to offer free phone service while you eat, and they were to eaves drop on customer's phone conversations, WE WOULD PUT THEM IN PRISON.

The fact that I make a phone call to my wife/doctor/lawyer/priest/whoever via Voice Over IP internet call does not make it A-OK for a company to eaves drop on my phone conversation. Just because a company offers free local-calls phonecalls while I eat does not make it A-OK for them to eaves drop on my conversations. Nor does it make it OK for them to eaves drop on my data-conversations like by internet bank account login password or my medical searches or whatever else.

If McDonald's offers free car washes while I eat, cool. However if I then discover they are directing their employees to search my car trunk looking for drugs or dead bodies to get me arrested, I'm going to scream bloody murder.

If McDonald's wants to offer local-filtered free phone calls, swell, if they want to offer filtered free internet connections, swell, if they want to offer some sort of limited free car wash service, swell. However it is outrageous for them to abuse any of that access to snoop on customers, and it is most especially outrageous to do it specifically to use against their customers.

I assume you have no heroin in your trunk, but I assume you would be non-too-pleased to learn a company offered you a free carwash or free valet service and directed their employees to search your trunk looking to have you arrested, or if they offered you free local phone calls any listened in looking to find anything to have you arrested for.

-

insights for goldfish

[chckn.grg]

Yes, tragedy of the friggin commons -- if you don't charge by the unit, people use more than others around them would like. Only a goldfish would see this as a revelation ... encountering the same plastic castle and being shocked every time -- "hey, look, a castle!"

Oh, Ronald! You creepy Red Haired wierdo!

[Fantastic Lad]

Ha ha.

They need to have WiFi, because Ronald is part of Team Evil. (Dumb down the populace electronically as well as nutritionally; the two play well off each other, after all. --Crap passes through the blood brain barrier when cells are excited by microwave EM. What are those shakes made out of again. . ?) But when your brain staples conflict with your other brain staples due to a simple seating issue, well. . , what a quandary!

They should make a video game where the clown must run around trying to juggle this impossible situation.

-FL

Plus organic foods are bad for the planet.

[tjstork]

While from a human health perspective, free range chicken and cows seem the "natural way to go", it does use a lot of land and land use is a big factor in greenhouse gasses. Conversely, the industrial chicken coop could store thousands of chickens in a rather small, almost hermetically sealed building.

shocking

[mattwarden]

Offering something other than food results in people doing things other than eating. News at 11.

Decrease bandwidth

[Theoboley]

Why doesn't MickeyD's just choke off the bandwidth a bit. People will become impatient as they're lagging ass in WoW or checking their email. Sounds like a viable solution to me.

Google news has picked this up as a top story!!

[MrSaxonite]

jeeze whats next... can they slashdot, the slashdot? http://news.google.com/news?pz=1&ned=us&hl=en&q=mcdonalds+free+wifi

Starbucks

[foniksonik]

They should just do whatever Starbucks is doing.... they're already stealing all the other ideas, i'm sure Starbucks has it all figured out already. I rarely sit around there for long anymore either - seems like all the chairs are always broken, the tables wonky or missing and generally it's uncomfortable to stay for very long.

I gotta admit...

[Datamonstar]

I ROFL'ed at BigMACAddress.

re: kid-friendly

[King_TJ]

Yep. The kid-friendly factor is key. I like Panera Bread, but I have yet to see a single one with a kid's "play place" in it.

There's also the related issue, that if you actually want some uninterrupted time to USE a wi-fi connection and read news, email, etc. while your kid is with you, you're NOT going to get it unless they offer things to keep your kid occupied at the same time.

I can't imagine taking even the most well-behaved kid to a regular restaurant, and expecting him/her to just quietly sit there, bored out of his/her mind, while I crack open my laptop and start reading and replying to messages, chatting with people on IM, or anything else.

Panera - Home of the "Wish Sammich"

[up2ng]

Make sure you pick a tasty bread because that's all you will be eating !
They are ridiculously lean (and expensive) on stuff that turns 'two pieces of bread' into a 'sandwich'.
Then again they are "Panera Bread" and not "Panera Sandwich"

Re:Panera

[colinnwn]

I like Panera, but honestly is it really healthier on the whole than McDonalds, unless a person is one of those Birkenstock wearing organic hippies? You can make bad and good food choices at each. Panera's fancy sandwiches are loaded with calories and carbs compared to a quarter pounder. There are healthier options available at McD also like grilled chicken, salads, yogurt parfaits.

Re:Beyond Simple, just apply common sense!

[vertinox]

In your case, wouldn't that be like winterizing a home in Florida?

Believe it or not, winterizing a home that uses Central Air on cool all year round actually saves you money.

science is not a religion

[bussdriver]

Don't turn science into a religion.

Just as "soft" science can't find clear 100% correct answers, the "hard" science can't even figure out the real world to the degree that we can understand math or computer science.

I could know everything there is to know in science; but I'd still know relatively nothing.

Re:Beyond Simple, just apply common sense!

[DrgnDancer]

Qualification: I am childless and likely to remain so, not because of a lack of suitable partner.

I've seen this "ban kids from public places" rant before. It ignores a few points. From a practical point of view, it ignores that fact that parents of small children still need to occasionally go places, and sometimes need to take the child. To use your airliner example: since many places are unreachable or terribly inconvenient to reach without air travel from specific other places, it is more or less impossible to ban children on planes. "I am sorry ma'am, you cannot go to your father's funeral across the country, because we don't allow children on airplanes." Yeah, that's going to go over well. You think the air travel industry is in trouble now, wait till they stop allowing kids.

From a legal point of view, both children and their parent remain citizens and residents of their respective homes. I'm quite certain that there would be discrimination lawsuits in the offing at any legal attempt to bar them from various premise. While certainly it is within a proprietors right to ban children, I think people would have trouble with a government attempting to do so. As it IS within a business's rights to ban children, and very few chose to, it seems that the business case for it probably isn't that good. I'm sure that a decent sized town can support a few, and a larger city many more, restaurants that don't allow children to make for a more elegant dining experience. You can chose to frequent those. I seriously doubt that many low or mid range restaurants could afford the lost revenue though (and probably not even ALL high end restaurants).

In short: Children make noise. At least until they reach kindergarten age (or so) they are often incapable of NOT making noise. They simply haven't learned how to be quiet yet. Businesses that chose not to cater to children do exist, but to make up for excluding a large market, they usually charge more. Often for this reason they are "fancy" places. Most businesses probably cannot or would not want to afford to do this. Trying to ban children legally is almost certainly not possible.

Re:Since when does McDonald's want 'sticky' custom

[jo42]

what do you call a Quarter pounder in Chile?

Yesterdays burrito.

McDonalds

[dreemernj]

Where pipes, like everything else there, are fat.

Re:Since when does McDonald's want 'sticky' custom

[Knara]

While this is true to an extent, even in the US McD's can have wildly different menus and layouts.

i.e. Many midwestern McD's can have up to 15 things on their value menu, while the ones around here (metro area) have 9. The ones here also have flatscreens all over with cable news running, but no WiFi.

Re:What would be insane, is listening to you

[DrgnDancer]

The fact that he's made some goofy comments hardly makes him wrong. I happen to agree, McDonald's would be opening itself up to far to much liability by NOT looking for illegal traffic on its network. As it happens though, it probably doesn't matter. By the time they detected illegal traffic, and filtered it down to local authorities, it's pretty damned unlikely anything could be done about it.

Re:Remove the outlets

[DrgnDancer]

I LIKE that. Won't be as effective against Netbooks, but my wife (with her behemoth 17' desktop replacement) would be lucky to get 15 minutes.

Re:Since when does McDonald's want 'sticky' custom

[TihSon]

Canada has some of the most expensive cellular broadband rates in the world ... if not THE most expensive. On top of that, our phones tend towards the antiquated and the under-featured, our networks are old and spotty, and our telcos are masters of creative billing. We are quite lucky in one way though ... we will be getting the G1 sometime this summer. I just hope they don't disable every single feature that makes the Google OS worth having.

In our current backwards situation, it has occured to me many times that RIM was probably created so that the Canadian creator would have a phone that didn't need a spark plug,..

McDonald's Nintendo Wi-Fi deal ended already

[Webapprentice]

The deal was for Wayport to service Nintendo Wi-Fi connections at participating McDonald's restaurants, but that agreement expired.
http://nintendo.joystiq.com/2008/05/28/free-wi-fi-for-ds-no-more-at-north-american-mcdonalds-now/

Re:Since when does McDonald's want 'sticky' custom

[Alexandra Erenhart]

We still call it quarter pounder (Cuarto de libra con queso, in spanish). But I honestly believe very few people know why is called that way. They just assume is the burger's name.

Re:What are they complaining about?

[residieu]

I've seen places that offer free Wi-Fi, just not during lunch hours. Seems like a good compromise. You need to put in enough seating for lunch hours, but outside of that a lot of that seating is going to waste. If you can make a couple of extra sales by letting people hang around the store all afternoon surfing the web, it might be a good deal.

Re:Since when does McDonald's want 'sticky' custom

[mynicknamewasused]

cuarto de libra con queso. chuchaetumadre! more or less

Since when is McDonalds WiFi free?

[sys_mast]

Last I was at a local one with my laptop I had to pay. Not that I would, caused me to shutdown and go home. Is that just a local thing or has the policy changed at all locations?

Re:Since when is McDonalds WiFi free?

[sys_mast]

Sorry to reply to myself, but this link seems to indicate there is a charge.

http://www.mcdonalds.com/wireless/general_info.html

This is on topic since the Title indicates free.

Re:Since when does McDonald's want 'sticky' custom

[okmijnuhb]

Feel like I'm watching Pulp Fiction.

Re:71.207.228.227 = ion.simon.c

[ion.simon.c]

You found the contact information that I added to my TOR exit node. Good sleuthing! :rolleyes:

https://server.privacyfoundation.de/torstatus/router_detail.php?FP=68cf91bd0e58e0128dd40ce7bdec824fda49a925

Re:Since when does McDonald's want 'sticky' custom

[petermgreen]

While what you say is true, is also true that franchises make differences when it comes to locations, just look at the menues of McDonalds in different countries.
Afaict mcdonalds gives far more freedom to it's international subsidaries than is given to franchises within a country.

Re:Since when does McDonald's want 'sticky' custom

[bruceslog]

It seems to me that they could have a system set up such that you buy something and you can request a code for minutes of WiFi, maybe every dollar you spend on their product gets you a bonus of five minutes internet time.

Good idea, but I don't know how well it would work.. since I believe that many AT&T DSL customers get AT&T WiFi at McDonalds locations as part of their home DSL plan. These customers shouldn't have to purchase McD's food since they already pay for the WiFi with their AT&T plan.

AT&T put this plan together to entice more customers to their DSL plans, and McD's wanted more people in their restaurants ( at the time they embraced this idea, anyway ).

BTW, these AT&T WiFi Hotspots are also available at Starbucks and other places.

You got played. You played yourself simon

[MEK_LoveBug]

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1230601&cid=27949607 the ac apk is getting the better of you. I didn't think anyone would fall for that old trick but you never let us down do you ion.simon.c?

Re:You got played. You played yourself simon

[ion.simon.c]

You might want to send the contents of this post off to APK, seeing as how you have his email address:

%<%<%<%<%<%<%<

Do you remember saying this?

So, thus "you reap what you sow" & I promise you something, right now:
That posting of mine that shows your errors in this exchange? Well, that is going to go into EVERY ONE OF YOUR POSTS here, until you can't stand it anymore, & change your nick/handle here

You're breaking your promise to me.
It's been a week since you've last posted anything to my comments on slashdot. I haven't changed my handle, and still post from time to time.
What happened over on your end?

>%>%>%>%>%>%>%

Re:Since when does McDonald's want 'sticky' custom

[Jeff DeMaagd]

That would be a bonus for McDonald's as that would mean that there's little reason to stick around if you have cellular broadband to nearly anywhere you can walk.

Re:Since when does McDonald's want 'sticky' custom

[Jeff DeMaagd]

I imagine that AT&T customers would still get their plans, but everyone else gets their time credits by buying the establishment's product (in case you don't call it food or drink).

Re:Oh, Ronald! You creepy Red Haired wierdo!

[Fantastic Lad]

He was just rambling. By contrast, mine was sloppy and obscure (due to my being too lazy at the time of posting to generalize access to the various geek references). You'd have to have a base level understanding of. . .

1. Conspiracy theory specifically with regard to how EM pollution affects human brain cells.
2. Sid Meyer's "Alpha Centauri", (as well as forgive my calling it, 'Brain Staples' rather than 'Mind Staples'.)
3. The ingredient list of a McDonald's milk shake and the urban myth which says it is one molecule shy of being a plastic.

When I post sloppily, it's often because I hit "Submit" by accident before I'm ready. This, however, was not one of those cases. It was genuine laziness. I just know the subject too well and no longer care enough to explain my thinking to others. Let 'em zombie out if they wish. I am resigned to the notion that one day I may devolve into a long-haired old man muttering to himself in a cave. I'd rather not, (it seems cliche and lame), but I'm not sure if there's much choice involved. Maybe it will be slightly less lame if I call it a "grotto," learn French and get myself some paints.

Ugh. Or maybe I just need to do some spring cleaning and get some sunshine.

-FL