EMC Co-Founder Commits Suicide

The Register is reporting that EMC co-founder Richard Egan has committed suicide. The article has an interesting look back at some of his accomplishments. "Egan had an amazing life, encompassing involvement in the Apollo space program, the US Marines, starting and building the most successful storage company on the planet, and becoming the US ambassador to Ireland. Finally, aged 73 and facing a lingering death, he ended the battle decisively and on his terms. He was never a shrinking violet."

Comments

"Committed Suicide?"

[coaxial]

"Suicide" makes it sound like he was depressed. Sounds like this guy wasn't. He decided to go out on his own terms. He chose euthanasia. If only we all had such bravery when facing such a long debilitating decline.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[BigDXLT]

Some jokes just don't work in text.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[CannonballHead]

define "bravery"

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Goldberg's Pants]

While I think Bill Maher is a misogynist dickhead, he does have one great quote on suicide.

It's our way of telling God "You can't fire me. I quit!"

The sad thing is this guy should NOT have had to go in a closet and blow his head off. Never ceases to amaze me how we euthanize animals on compassionate grounds, and yet we humans, we're expected to suffer.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[X0563511]

Most people fear death - a lot.

He, instead of scrabbling away and clinging to anything he could (and just making it longer) like many of us would, stood tall, squared his shoulders, and walked into it's maw.

That, is bravery.

Death, is the one final unknown. Our species seems to be wired into fearing the unknown. Death, being one of the absolute unknowns, is also one of the absolute fears. The man was not afraid of this absolute.

That, is bravery.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[popeyethesailor]

Well, please read the article. He was suffering from Stage 4 lung cancer, diabetes and high BP. I'm no doctor, but that looks fairly terminal to me. Why the fuck should I hang around as a vegetable?

Suicide is devastating to those who care, yes; but in this case at least, there's no selfishness. He saw that he was beyond extended support; and decided to go. Committing suicide takes a phenomenal amount of courage, and/or some mental instability. In this case, it seems to be mostly the former. Rest in Peace.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[DigiShaman]

It could have also been desperation.

I don't fault the guy. I mean, if terminal lung cancer is as bad as it sounds, I might have pulled the trigger on my own terms too. Who in the hell want's to die an agonizing death when a bullet to the head seems like the cure in comparison?

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[4D6963]

Ah, youth in asia. Got it. Took me a minute.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[TheGratefulNet]

we're 'expected to suffer' because relgion *still* dominates our legal system.

remove religion and there's zero issue with people killing themselves.

it really is that simple.

and yet its not. because people won't let go of explanations that let them sleep easy at night.

even ones we know are not really true.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[paazin]

It could have also been desperation.

I don't fault the guy. I mean, if terminal lung cancer is as bad as it sounds, I might have pulled the trigger on my own terms too. Who in the hell want's to die an agonizing death when a bullet to the head seems like the cure in comparison?

Assuming the terminal cancer was the reason for his suicide, which is a supposition to begin with. The fact that he was caught up in a tax haven and the IRS was on his back ... well, one could imagine it can be a little more nuanced and complicated.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Jafafa Hots]

Oh come on. The guy had lived his life, was facing pain... for what? He wasn't a teenager, he wasn't middle aged. Doesn't a person have the right to decide when they've had enough?

You want to know selfish is? Selfish is expecting a terminally ill aged person to endure suffering to slightly prolong an existence that they no longer feel is tolerable, all so that a complete fucking stranger on the internet doesn't have to deal with a moment facing the reality that ALL PEOPLE DIE, before said geek clicks on to the next story, about robot porn or some shit.

The guy lived his life, saw the end coming and chose not to suffer. The only sad part is that our sick society is in such denial about the inevitability of death that he was forced to choose such a gruesome method rather than having the option of something more peaceful.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[RuBLed]

The only thing I'm opposed to was his method of "euthanasia".. Come on, firing a shotgun in the head, there are other methods that would work as well without inciting that much shock to whoever finds you lying on the floor.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Brian Gordon]

Never ceases to amaze me

Doesn't surprise me. Until very recently, only the wealthy could afford the food/rest/care to even survive any serious illness. The problem of what to do with old people when the medical care is too good is a recent problem and our society hasn't cast its collective conscience's vote yet on what attitude to adopt toward human euthanasia. Eventually we'll reach a mature, stable decision one way or the other.. but you can't rush it.

Also there are a lot of thorny ethical issues. For like 25 centuries doctors have been swearing the Hippocratic oath, which explicitly states "do no harm." Doctors can't even prescribe lethal injections when a court orders execution; prisons have to get those drugs 'semi-legally' without going through a real doctor. Also there's the problem of whether the elderly will feel pressured to go to euthanasia (as seen in Soylent Green and Deus Ex) to spare the financial burden on their kids or society. And there's the catch-22 issue of sound mind: euthanasia candidates must be making a rational decision, but anyone petitioning for euthanasia is acting irrationally...

Obviously there should be a better way than taking a gun into a closet, but immediately jumping into legalizing euthanasia would be inappropriate and dangerous.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[SanityInAnarchy]

That, or he fears pain more than death. Most people fear pain, a lot.

He, instead of fighting the pain and clinging as long as he could (and affording himself the possibility of a medical breakthrough or a medical miracle), like many of us would, simply gave up and took his ball home.

From a certain perspective, that is cowardice.

Death is a complete unknown. Rather than face the pain he knows, clinging to another few years, days, hours with loved ones, he instead walked headfirst into what could very well be worse pain and debilitation (think any religion's hell), yet clearly in a desire to avoid the pain and debilitation that he knew.

From a certain perspective, that is stupidity.

I don't think we can really judge one way or the other, though. At a certain point, it's a choice between being a burden to your family as you slowly drift into a coma and then death, or cutting off all medical treatment (and thus bills).

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[MBGMorden]

"Suicide" is a word - whether you connect it to depression or not is your own twisting of the term. If you kill yourself it is suicide, plain and simple. That can be good, bad, accepted, or non-accepted, but the term itself doesn't care. I could equally say that "euthanasia" sounds like he was gassed to death, when in reality he shot himself.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[MadMartigan2001]

Oh ya, "go out on a morphine drip" does not screw with peoples heads. You've obviously not been witness to what happens to people when they waste away and die. Face it, you are ridiculing this guy because he has balls you'll never have. All you can do is call him selfish to make yourself feel better for not having the guts to face your own death with your eyes wide open. you'd rather go out on drugs, numb to the whole experience, all the time, whining about people who are much stronger than you. pathetic.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[plopez]

remove religion and there's zero issue with people killing themselves.
No, not really. It's usually the family and friends that suffer the most. I knew a guy with a 3 year old daughter that shot himself. That was some time ago, she's an adult now. I'm sure she still carried the scars with her.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

"May this not be that the voluntary surrender of life is an ill compliment to him who said that all things were very good?"

From Schopenhauer's "On Suicide":(Hollingdale's translation)

"Christianity carries in its innermost heart the truth that suffering(the Cross) is the true aim of life: that is why it repudiates suicide, which is opposed to this aim, while antiquity from a lower viewpoint approved of and indeed honoured it. This argument against suicide is however an ascetic one, and is therefore valid only from a far higher ethical standpoint than any which European moral philosophers have ever assumed. If we descend from this very high standpoint there no longer remains any tenable moral reason for damning suicide. It therefore seems that the extraordinary zeal in opposing it displayed by the clergy of monotheistic religions - a zeal which is not supported by the Bible or by any cogent reasons - must have some hidden reason behind it: may this not be that the voluntary surrender of life is an ill compliment to him who said that all things were very good? If so, it is another instance of the obligatory optimism of these religions, which denounces self-destruction so as not to be denounced by it."

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[MichaelSmith]

My father in law is currently dying from terminal cancer and I reckon anybody who has seen it happen would look for a fast way out. What I am seeing now is almost indescribably horrible. I don't blame this guy one bit.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[plopez]

exactly, firearms are often used on impulse. Which is why they are dangerous to keep lying around the house.

He could have checked into a hospice, etc.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[catmistake]

yeah, if he had realized that control was an illusion, if he had decided instead that it was not up to him to decide when it would end, just as it was not his decision to begin, to face debilitation and pain... he would have undone all he had done and we'd see him as a coward.

btw you are an idiot. suicide is for cowards (unless in protest). there is no honor in ending your life. Either you have the fortitude to see it through to the very end, or you don't. He didn't. Suicide doesn't diminish what he did while alive, however, it does not make him brave.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Maxo-Texas]

A quote on Slate today said that elderly suicides had declined (roughly) 30% since social security was instituted.

When I looked over the star trek memory wall (http://www.trekkieguy.com/memory01.shtml), I noted that the deaths were

a) a collection of cancers of actors in their 50's
b) a huge amount of heart attacks of actors in their 60's.
c) a sprinkling of suicides of actors in their 70's.
d) and finally a few (really small number) of actors dying of old age in their 90's.

If I had incurable cancer and knew it would end very painfully, I'd off myself first. I'd probably go as long as they gave me morphine and then heroin for the pain tho.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[WaywardGeek]

Actually, I wouldn't choose a bullet. I think jumping off Half Dome sounds a lot more fun. Or seeing exactly just how fast I can take those turns in a motorcycle on Skyline, and then push just a bit more. Go sky diving and simply don't pull the cord. How about taking an overdose of some very fun drug while enjoying the company of a well-paid lady friend? Free-climb some way-too-hard slope without a rope? Rent a Corvette, and crash it at 170Mph. See just how far you can swim into the ocean, or just how far you can free-dive, and then push a bit further. I think I'd prefer any of those to a slow painful death stretched over months or years. You only get to die once. Might as well die doing something you'd normally be to scared to try.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Microlith]

our society hasn't cast its collective conscience's vote yet on what attitude to adopt toward human euthanasia.

Well, if you went by the philosophies under which the US was founded then it's no one's business but the person seeking death. The problem are the religious busybodies who feel the need to butt in and interfere with people's decisions for the sake of their personal moral gratification.

For like 25 centuries doctors have been swearing the Hippocratic oath, which explicitly states "do no harm."

Is not forcing someone to live in pain, with no dignity, not causing harm? Is it truly harm if the person is granted the relief they desire? Have you hurt anyone?

anyone petitioning for euthanasia is acting irrationally...

Are they now? If there's no reasonable expectation of a cure for some terminal disease and the inevitable result is crippling disability, pain, and death, who are you to say someone who wishes to book early, preserving their dignity, is acting irrationally?

Could it not be argued that those willing to spend every last cent to stay alive, no matter how debilitating and painful life may become before death, are themselves acting irrationally?

On an unrelated note, the first quote of this paragraph was, before I previewed it, enclosed with the "blockbuster" tag. Please, anyone, tell me what I was thinking?

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, because people left behind would never get screwed up seeing you die slowly and painfully, weezing (quite literally) your last in some hospital ward as you gradually lose control of your bodily functions. That would obviously be much less traumatic for them than putting your affairs in order, saying goodbye with dignity and making a (relatively) clean exit.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[JWSmythe]

    You know, when I go, I want it on my own terms too. Shotgun to the head? That wouldn't exactly be my choice. I'm thinking of a nice IV morphine cocktail, heavy on the morphine. Quick, painless, and you're gone. Not that I'm thinking of an out, but sometimes you consider what the options are. I could live painfully in hospice care for weeks or months, or go to sleep and never wake up. If/when the day comes, I hope a doctor will be kind enough to to leave it by my bedside and walk away for 20 minutes with the EKG turned off. I've seen the way it can go. I'd prefer not to go that way.

    It's a shame that "assisted euthanasia" is not an option in most places. We can put down our pets so they don't suffer, but we don't allow the same humane treatment for ourselves.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[shermo]

As someone who's watched a loved one go through leukemia, I think it's pretty obvious that oath is selectively enforced.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Alpha830RulZ]

My sympathies. I watched my father die from melanoma. Actually, he died from starvation. After months of intractable pain, he quit eating and starved himself to end his pain.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Panspechi]

Oh yeah... robot porn

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[rjh]

With respect to whether forcing someone to live in pain and without dignity is a violation of the Hippocratic Oath -- yes, it is. This is why so many doctors nowadays are taking continuing education classes in chronic pain management and death with dignity.

Under current ethical guidelines, a doctor is allowed to prescribe any amount of narcotic necessary to manage the pain of a terminal patient, even if that dose of narcotic will hasten the patient's death. (The law has not caught up with medical ethics, but it's in the process of doing so.)

If the only way to manage the pain of your terminal illness is to give you a dose that will hasten your death, the AMA says that if you ask for it I am allowed to ethically give it to you. The AMA also says that I should tell you that very powerful drugs are available to manage your pain, and to encourage you not to live in pain. I can't force you to take the Fentanyl patch, but I can make sure you know you have that option available to you and that no one will think less of you for it.

Pain management, dignity, hospice care, etc. -- these are all ways medicine in the US is trying to balance the Hippocratic Oath against the indignities of terminal care.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[adolf]

My grandfather died (ostensibly) from Parkinson's. My other grandfather died (also, ostensibly) from a stroke. I say "ostensibly" because neither of these things were capable of killing the men by themselves.

In the first case, the man's wits were always totally about him, but his communication and motor skills dropped to such a useless extent that he plainly felt he was a burden. He was very intelligent, and a quiet thinker: Someone you listened to when they talked, no matter how lengthy or succinct the conversation. My family kept him alive for years too long -- he was only going to get worse, not better.

In the latter case, the man's wits weren't always about him, but he was plainly aware that he was on his last legs and wouldn't be long in this world. He was an intelligent, outgoing, and very lucky reactionist who thrived on stress: Someone you listened to very intently, even if you thought they were wrong, because their thoughts were still very useful to absorb. My family kept him alive for years too long, as well -- he had more than one stroke in the nursing home, and had a long history of cardiac problems before then.

Both were accomplished (in terms of family reverence and fiscal good fortune). They lived good, honest lives, had their shit together, and were completely loved by those around them.

But, they lived too long. They were all used up.

Death is as natural as life itself is. It is an eventuality. One can either go out on one's own terms, or one can sap the Estate for all that its worth as the State sucks it all in to maintain "healthfulness" at everyone's (including the patient) detriment.

I hope your Grandpa-in-law does well with whatever comes.

(And for a disclaimer: No, death and suicide aren't always fair, and aren't always the fair means to an end. My own sister, whom I was also very close to, killed herself while she was still young and in rather good physical health about three years ago. Something about a hose, some duct tape, a 1996 Chevrolet Monte Carlo, a secluded garage, a bunch of cocaine, a lot of unhelpful friends, and an undiagnosed case of schizophrenia combined to make this happen. I wish I could've done more for her, and will probably regret that I hadn't for the rest of my own life.)

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Brian Gordon]

it's no one's business but the person seeking death

Yeah, and that's exactly what the guy did. He locked the door, sat in a closet, and shot himself in the head. The point is that this shouldn't have to happen. There should be a social support structure to allow a comfortable exit under medical supervision and no brains all over the walls. And that would be society's business.

Is not forcing someone to live in pain, with no dignity, not causing harm?

Well the traditional view is that there's no worse "Harm" than death. It's part of the attitude shift that needs to take place before euthanasia is considered help not harm.

Are they now?

Oh come on we understand that it's not as logically simple as the original Catch-22 but the analogy applies.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Quothz]

For like 25 centuries doctors have been swearing the Hippocratic oath, which explicitly states "do no harm."

First off, the Hippocratic Oath does not say "do no harm". It does say that doctors should not do assisted suicides, perform abortions, or perform surgery. Luckily, doctors don't take it any more and haven't in my lifetime. I'm not sure why people think they do. Some take substitute oaths, like the Declaration of Geneva;* others take no oath.

immediately jumping into legalizing euthanasia would be inappropriate and dangerous

"Immediately"? That's a topic that's been up for debate throughout all of recorded history. Which is why the Hippocratic Oath mentions it. Generally, it's been shot down by religious leaders in western cultures because suicide is a sin. It'd be awful nice if we could get past the argument that an invisible fairy will get mad at you and address it as two questions: Does a person own his or her own life, and if so, under what criteria is suicide appropriate? For example, I could see not allowing someone suicide due to schizophrenia because it interferes with rational decision-making. I could also see it a no-no for the parent of a minor child, under the assumption that his or her duty to the child supercedes any rights to opt outta life. But just screaming that it's wrong isn't gonna last in today's secular political climate.

* Which also does not say "do no harm", but does say "I will maintain the utmost respect for human life". On the flip side, the doctor also promises to never violate human rights - some would argue that the right to die at a place and time of one's own choosing is a human right.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Runaway1956]

Maybe "noble" isn't the right word. But, face it - we've all got to go. Why not write your own ticket? Call it fear, but I sure as hell don't want to spend months wasting away on a hospital bed. I've seen it. There are, literally, dozens of better ways to go. Having your ass shot off by a jealous husband would be better than eating your own gun barrel, but hey - it works.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[JWSmythe]

    You shouldn't have posted A/C. You're very much right.

    I saw my dad dying. It wasn't pretty. My last memories of him are in the hospital bed, which I'm sure wasn't the way he wanted to be seen going out. He was military also, but he wouldn't have chosen the gun to the head route. He fought to the end, in disbelief that he could be dying. Unfortunately, there was a burial, and now a gravestone to prove it. His mantra was "it's indigestion", when in reality it was heart attacks, which took their toll. He was smart, and he knew the truth, but sometimes we'll ignore the simple truth when it's bad enough.

    If he could have taken his last day on his terms (but not quite so messy), he may have taken that route. But I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have, simply because he refused to believe it. At very least, he could have saved himself the last day of suffering.

    My step son was almost luckier. He died quickly in the comfort of our home by natural causes (a seizure). He had already told us, he had no recollection of anything that happened during his seizures, so he was completely unaware of what happened. His mother and I were the first to find him, and despite the obvious truth, I performed CPR until the paramedics arrived. He was already rigor, but I refused to believe it. I did tell the 911 operator "he's rigor-like". Not rigor mortis. I refused to believe the truth, even though I knew better. The paramedics were kind when they showed up, but there was nothing for them to do but talk us through it.

    Damn. I was having a good night. Now I'm stuck with the memories of what happened again. They never do go away, but sometimes they can be sidetracked with better memories of the people we loved.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Hurricane78]

Well, I have long planned my death. I'm going to let someone build me a nice sharp metal cone for a head, order a parachute drop, but stuff the backpack with old newspapers or bedsheets. Then when I jump, I will point my head to the biggest asshole on the planet.

It's going to be a fun couple of minutes for an old man, and it will certainly make it to the newspapers. ^^

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[JWSmythe]

    A friend of mine went through that too. Her father died of terminal cancer. They did a lot to him, and gave him lots of drugs to help the pain, but he wasted away until his last day came. Needless to say, it was a terrible experience for her. It's something I don't ever wish on anyone.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Runaway1956]

Lung cancer. I watched my Grandpa die of it. Try to imagine that I cut open your chest, and put a pair of perfectly healthy rats inside your chest, then sewed you back up. Imagine those rats clawing and gnawing their way back out. Not a pretty picture, huh? The comparison isn't accurate - those rats would kill you within an hour. Cancer lasts, and lasts, and lasts.......

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[X0563511]

Ah, but a good amount of those have too much of a risk to end up a painful drawn out end.

Your corvette crash - what happens if you just end up a paralyzed vegetable? Oops!

Drowning in the ocean? No thanks... drowning is not a fun way to go, supposedly.

Drug overdose? You may end up like Ozzie without the fame to go with it.

Sky diving without a chute? You really want to watch it come? What happens if you have second thoughts, but you are terminally low in altitude?

Nah, I'd rather it be quick, and with a small as possible time difference between the decision and the actual result... or a Kevorkian approach.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Hurricane78]

Nah. We rather fear dying. When you're dead, you don't care anymore. ^^

Suicide is harder than you might think. People survived headshots, drops from 20-story buildings, even drops from fighter planes, and the slow deaths are the worst. Because in every one of them, you risk getting "saved" and living your life as a drooling cripple, incapable of killing yourself, and making a ton of money for some "health" companies.

That's why I recommend this: Lasse Gjertsen — Det Ultimate Selvmord ;)

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Valdrax]

Actually, I wouldn't choose a bullet. I think jumping off Half Dome sounds a lot more fun. Or seeing exactly just how fast I can take those turns in a motorcycle on Skyline, and then push just a bit more. Go sky diving and simply don't pull the cord. How about taking an overdose of some very fun drug while enjoying the company of a well-paid lady friend? Free-climb some way-too-hard slope without a rope? Rent a Corvette, and crash it at 170Mph. See just how far you can swim into the ocean, or just how far you can free-dive, and then push a bit further. I think I'd prefer any of those to a slow painful death stretched over months or years. You only get to die once. Might as well die doing something you'd normally be to scared to try.

Personally, I'd rather not be the kind of jerk that leaves a huge mess for someone else to clean up when it's time to fold up my affairs, but YMMV.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[X0563511]

I got to watch my grandmother go, from a massive systemic infection and general cancer.

(the cancer had broken out from colon cancer, it was all over her cavity... and the infection was the result of perforated bowels).

That was not a good end to watch. She wasn't even sane when she went, she was seeing people dead for years, jumping from one time to another, etc.

I can't blame someone for foreseeing something like that, and taking action to avoid it.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[X0563511]

How many people have you watched wither and die?

I refuse to accept your opinion on this matter, sorry.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[l00sr]

The only sad part is that our sick society is in such denial about the inevitability of death that he was forced to choose such a gruesome method rather than having the option of something more peaceful.

Being a man of quite some means, so to speak, it's pretty naive to think he couldn't have just hopped a plane to say, Oregon, and offed himself there neatly and legally. He blew his head off with a shotgun because that's the way he wanted to go out, clearly.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[spinlight]

Obviously there should be a better way than taking a gun into a closet, but immediately jumping into legalizing euthanasia would be inappropriate and dangerous.

Luckily, Oregon, Washington, Montana, and Texas (in the USA) have already taken this "inappropriate and dangerous" leap, enabling doctors (in varying capacities) to perform euthanasia. In the case of Oregon, this law has been in effect for 15+ years, which is hardly "immediate". Controversial, yes, but "inappropriate and dangerous" is a bit of a stretch, seeing as the precedent has been set.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Eventually we'll reach a mature, stable decision one way or the other.. but you can't rush it.

Whoo-hoo! Death Panels FTW!

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[catmistake]

How many people have you watched wither and die?

A few. They were helpless. Just like when they first arrived. There's a certain undeniable symmetry to it.

I refuse to accept your opinion on this matter, sorry.

Save your insincere apologies for your children.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Dhalka226]

The problem is that these all have varying degrees of potential failure. Jumping off Half Dome or skydiving and not pulling the chute? Pretty good chance you'll die, and quickly--but if you don't, there's also a high risk you live in agony for hours, probably destroyed so bodily that you couldn't even do anything to finish the job. And god help you if somebody saw it happen and called an ambulance that ended up saving your life. There was a story just a few days ago about an Australian quadraplegic getting a court to acknowledge his right to die--but of course nobody can help him, so he has to waste away by starvation.

Drowning? I don't know. I've heard it said that drowning is actually a pretty horrible way to die. A bullet isn't surefire either, of course, but a sufficiently high-caliber weapon in the proper location comes awfully close.

Either way, if somebody's going to commit suicide they should couple whatever action they choose with a Do Not Resuscitate order. Of course the best solution is for us as a society to get over this "ZOMG LIFE IS TOO SACRED TO HELP SOMEBODY DIE, HE'LL HAVE TO DO IT HIMSELF AND SUFFER IN AGONY!" thing and just provide ways of helping people end their lives.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Jafafa Hots]

I had wondered about that

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Hojima]

You only get to die once. Might as well die doing something you'd normally be to scared to try.

My favorite one that you mentioned would be skydiving, but I'd make sure I fall on top of some asshole.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[benjamindees]

That can't seriously be your argument. The dead don't spend much?

Can you at least attempt to come up with a plausible way in which suicide hurts the economy?

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[bogjobber]

Obviously there should be a better way than taking a gun into a closet, but immediately jumping into legalizing euthanasia would be inappropriate and dangerous.

Why? The state of Oregon has had legalized euthanasia for twelve years. The Netherlands has had it for almost ten. People aren't exactly lining up to off themselves. Most people like living and you can still kill yourself whether or not your local government lets a doctor assist you.

And the Hippocratic Oath is not some immutable law of ethics. As I understand it, most graduating medical students don't even take it. It alsoclearly states in the oath that you aren't supposed to give abortions, and that's still legal and performed by doctors, so I don't see why it's relevant to the conversation.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[rastos1]

Most people fear death - a lot.

In fact, they fear long and helpless suffering that precedes it.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[ppanon]

Seems to me that insisting that someone who wants to die rather than suffer from an incurable terminal disease will instead have to live with pain for many months instead, just so that some nurse and doctors can get some moolah and "contribute to the economy" is incredibly ghoulish. If the guy wants to die to avoid dragging the inevitable out, let him. That money will be spent in other ways and still circulate in the economy; decreasing the national debt through inheritance taxes, and/or spent by the family. It will be better spent than keeping somebody alive and in pain against their will. the latter sounds an awful lot like torture to me.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[cbraescu1]

In all your scenarios the last seconds / minutes are filled with pain and horror. Even worse, some of your scenarios do not guarantee death. How would you like to spend the last weeks or months of your life on morphine (with diminishing results) *and* immobilized in bed, with 20 bones broken?

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Greyfox]

http://www.bash.org/?488793

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Seumas]

Am I the only one who didn't understand a fucking word of the above poster's meaningless rambling platitudes? You sound like Mother Theresa. "Why help people? Just tell them to suffer in agony because it's beautiful."

I hope when you're confronted with that situation you can look at your pain-stricken loved one and tell them "toughen up you fucking pussy".

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[izomiac]

It's fine for evolution. Even desirable under certain circumstances. That individual won't reproduce anymore, but their offspring likely will have more resources, as will their kin who are likely genetically similar. Otherwise longevity would be more favored by natural selection, we wouldn't die of "old age", and suicidal ideations wouldn't exist. Kinda similar to how apoptosis is beneficial for cells.

I'm not well versed in economics, but that sounds almost like the broken window fallacy. Putting money into delaying the inevitable only would help if that person personally helped the economy while on their death bed.

Also, I've always found the "most selfish act" bit distasteful. "Woe is me, this person's life/future was bad enough for them to choose to die, but they didn't prioritize the pain that would cause *me*." Sure it's selfish, by definition, although certainly no more so than choosing to live. What's unjustly selfish is thinking you have any right to dictate the permissible ways for a rational individual to die. Ditto for keeping someone alive for your own (usually emotional) benefit.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[lysergic.acid]

So every terminal cancer patient who doesn't commit suicide isn't brave? By trying to survive they're "scrabbling away and clinging to anything they could?" Sounds like you're saying all the terminally ill who don't commit suicide are pathetic cowards. What about the ones who endure all the pain (physical and psychological) and some how beat the odds (it's happened many a times)?

People who commit suicide all have their own reasons. I think the important thing is to not judge them, regardless of what their circumstances happen to be, as we'll never know what they were going through and the reasoning behind their decision. It's their life. They should have the right to end it if they want. It's really no one else's business.

But let's not try so hard to glorify someone' death that we start denigrating those with the will to live on. This guy obviously lead a very full life filled with many great & admirable accomplishments. Let's just leave it at that. His suicide was just the final period at the end of a fascinating life story. Our attention should be on everything that came before it.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[binary paladin]

Religion?

Or a medical industry the brings in the lion's share of its profits from the last years of people's lives.

Short of being paralyzed you can kill yourself anyway. The's the cool part about killing yourself--even if it's illegal it's not like they can prosecute you for it.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[binary paladin]

Suicide doesn't take courage by default. Often times it's a chicken shit's way out. However, in the case of being old and terminal, it's common place in a lot of older cultures to simply "leave the tribe" so you're not a burden anymore. In industrialized nations have become oddly life obsessed to the point that it defies reality. The old and sick can but put out and while it's perfectly acceptable to lock people in a maximum security penitentiary where they're alone 23 hours a day, killing them is "cruel and unusual."

Of course, there's less money in death than in prolonging the inevitable. Plus, people in pain are the most desperate sort of suckers out there.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Falconhell]

"Death is as natural as life itself is. It is an eventuality. One can either go out on one's own terms, or one can sap the Estate for all that its worth as the State sucks it all in to maintain "healthfulness" at everyone's (including the patient) detriment."

Great post, you summed that up well.

Whatever you do don't blame yourself for someone else's suicide.

I have been haunted by the suicide of my closest friend for 25 years. Same method too. It is always easy to see the signs after the fact, but virtually impossible in some cases beforehand.

Another of my closest friends died of breast cancer (Metastisised) at 32 a few years ago. When she knew the end was near she went out and partied real hard, and died 2 days later. At least she went out how she lived with great spirit-and the best illegal drugs!

  If she had stayed in Hospital she could have probably lived for another month at most, and we her friends would have had to watch her die slowly and painfully. Her bravery in not allowing her friends to suffer with her for a month was incredibly moving.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[SanityInAnarchy]

Saying "I don't blame them" doesn't make it an act of courage, though.

Ultimately, it's neither. Both options are terrifying, and at least pulling the trigger means you had the courage to act and make a choice, rather than simply letting it happen. And I do have some of the same sentiment -- I'd probably rather spend my last breaths on my terms, diving headfirst into the maw, than spend my last breaths on a respirator, unconscious from the pain.

The difference is, I have no faith that there's anything at all after this. So unless I have a damned good reason not to -- like, draining the estate when it's truly terminal, or jumping on a grenade -- I absolutely will fight for every second I can. I love life, and I want more of it.

This thread is full of stories with defeatist morals -- and I will not say that anyone is wrong for making that choice. But at the same time, I also won't revere them for making "the right choice" -- they made the choice they made, and it isn't black and white.

My own story: My step-grandfather had cancer, undiscovered for a long time. When you get that old, you don't go to the doctor over every lump and ache. So when it was finally discovered, it was pretty much too late.

I was in a serious crunch at work, so I didn't go visit him as long as there was a chance... but my father called me, with two words: "Jerry's dying." He'd talked to my grandmother, and together, they decided there was no point dragging it out -- he was asleep so much, and when he was awake, he was in pain... he was barely there, and every day was costing money. So they had his life support pulled.

My father and I dropped everything and flew out there. He was in a coma by the time we arrived.

He never woke up. We like to say he waited for everyone to arrive (we weren't the last). He just... slipped away quietly in the night.

I don't know what choice I would have made, in that position -- I've never been in that position. I don't blame anyone for making that choice -- but I don't think that it's somehow more "right" than the alternative.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Falconhell]

Suicide for reasons not relating to terminal disease is totally different tot he case we are discussing.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[catmistake]

Your distinction between suicide in protest and suicide in general is arbitrary.

Suicide for release of suffering has a singular beneficiary. Suicide in protest benefits all but that individual. The distinction is obvious.

I do tend to agree that suicide is an incredibly selfish action, but i also accept the notion that people have a right to be selfish and feel that freedom includes the freedom to quit if you want to.

Hidden in my sarcasm you may have missed that I was not attempting to condemn the man for taking his own life, but only to label those that would (ignorantly) praise him as "brave" for doing so as idiots. Sry for the confusion.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[LaskoVortex]

define "bravery"

Bravery /bray-ver-ee/ (N): being a perfectly healthy twit who passes judgment on the actions of other people.

Used in a sentence: CannonballHead was a twit who never knew what it was like to face a terminal disease and had the turd-like gall to question the bravery of another human who was confronted with a choice between lingering suffering followed by a humiliating demise and deciding the course of his irremediable destiny.

Does that work for you?

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[X0563511]

I was focusing on suicides, so I didn't put as many words into the others.

Yes, there is a big difference between holding on for fear of death, and holding on for hope of advancement or other form of rescue.

I do agree with what you are saying.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[JWSmythe]

    To each his own, right?

    I agree, the blood splatter mess isn't exactly the legacy I'd want to leave behind. I've spent my life making sure I'm well preserved, between bad food with lots of preservatives, and generally pickling myself with alcohol. Archeologists in 1000 years will dig up my body, and I'll look as fresh as when they planted me, even without embalming. I'll leave a lovely, yet well worn corpse. :) My friends will say "yes, he lived his life to the fullest, and was happy." Well hell, who knows what they'll really say. There may only be one person show up to say "finally that bastard is gone."

    But hey, he was picking his exit, and that's how he wanted it. I hope he laid down plenty of plastic so he didn't leave a mess for the family and friends to clean up. When it all comes down to it, we all pick our way out. Some people go the "legal" and "moral" way, and die slowly and painfully in hospice. Some take a more express method. As with life, to each his own.

    I guess it's better than slitting your wrists or hanging yourself in a hotel, for housekeeping to find sometime the next day (or days later).

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[catmistake]

Well, I'm a strong believer in the Golden Rule. I'm rubber, you're glue... that kind of thing. If I incorrectly detected a maligned attitude toward my post, then I must be in the right place.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[ppanon]

Life is pain. Death is nothing. Which is more noble to endure?

Some pains you can rise above and some pains drag you under until what makes you you is gone anyways. There's not much nobility in being in such massive pain from a terminal disease that it requires mind-clouding drugs at a nearly drool-inducing level to be able to rest, or being otherwise incapacitated to the extent of being completely uncommunicative, dependent on others, and incapable of contributing in any way. Frankly I wouldn't wish that end on anyone, not even people who think it's "noble". You also seem to be unaware that severe constant pain often changes people, making them less tolerant or even aggressive. Turning into a mean bastard that lashes out at everyone might not be a huge personality change for some. However, I would hope I get the chance to go out gracefully so that people remember the person I want and strive to be, rather than a person I would be loathe to become.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[catmistake]

Funny how most are not at all ashamed that what you describe is basically how we all started out, in massive pain and confusion, drooling. I know you used to shit your pants twice a day. For years. How is it you were able to rise above that to make it all the way here to slashdot to proclaim that if your aging gets unbearable you'll off yourself? btw, I didn't say that a horrible painful death was necessarily noble. What I was trying to say was that suicide was less noble than whatever nobility natural death holds.

Those who take their own life aren't brave... that's all I'm saying. They should be held to the same standard as someone who runs a race, doesn't like how its going, and quits. Sure, personal choice. But the runner that makes it to the end, even if they are dead last, endears far greater respect.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[PiSkyHi]

if he had decided instead that it was not up to him to decide when it would end.

Your illusion of control is making you think its not his decision. He clearly made the decision without paying any attention to your will - whether you approve or not, saying it is not his decision is just simply not for you to say.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[adolf]

Your corvette crash - what happens if you just end up a paralyzed vegetable? Oops!

I've put some thought into this. I've determined that it's not so hard to die in a single-car accident. The trick is using a car which is early enough to have few safety measures and good engine output, while being late enough to be light-weight. A late ('78-81) second-generation Camaro SS or Firebird Trans-Am fits the bill pretty well: No crumple zones, no electronics to speak of to overrule your foot, plenty of power, lots of speed, zero safety features except for the optional seatbelt, and hard, metal dashboard components.

Add that to a race with death on any road you can come up with, so long as it has either a sheer cliff on one side, or the occasional overhead bridge, and you're golden. Just make sure the driveline, tires and suspension are in good shape beforehand, lest you accidentally live due to mechanical failure.

(An '09 Civic, Camry, or Golf probably would not work so well, even if it is faster.)

Meanwhile...

Drowning, of course, sucks.

Drugs? Shoot. Lots of good folks die from drugs. Done right, one doesn't feel a thing. Research is important.

Sky diving without a chute? Hard to pull off. Too much documentation. The posthumous Inquisition would be ugly for the accessories. But it is quick, sure, and painless.

Kevorkian approach, though? IIRC, those folks took awhile to die, and didn't appear to particularly be enjoying themselves. Fuck that - if it's time to go, go out with something fun. That sounds ugly, to me.

YMMV.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[ppanon]

Those who take their own life aren't brave... that's all I'm saying. They should be held to the same standard as someone who runs a race, doesn't like how its going, and quits. Sure, personal choice. But the runner that makes it to the end, even if they are dead last, endears far greater respect.

So you would dismiss the effort of the runner who tears an Achilles tendon for not crawling on bloody hands and knees hundreds of meters to the finish line? Whether they finished or not, they would have more of my respect than you are likely to garner.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Builder]

As an active skydiver, I'm asking you nicely to pick another one of those choices. It's no fun for anyone standing around the DZ on a nice sunny day when selfish fuck decides to use our sport as his means to kill himself. It's no fun having to watch the paramedics try to save their life when you can see in their eyes they're dead. It's no fun to see the faces of the children who just came to see mummy get strapped to some man and go tandem when they realise that shit on their shoes used to be a living person.

So do us all a favour, and fuck off.

I'll leave the other ideas to the active climbers, motorcyclists and others who you'd like to make shit for.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[TheThiefMaster]

For like 25 centuries doctors have been swearing the Hippocratic oath, which explicitly states "do no harm."

Is not forcing someone to live in pain, with no dignity, not causing harm? Is it truly harm if the person is granted the relief they desire? Have you hurt anyone?

This reminded me instantly of Asimov's 3 Laws of Robotics. Specifically, the first:
"A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm."
A conflict between the two caused the robot to freeze, so unfortunately it is no help to us with resolving this...

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[mjwx]

Most people fear death - a lot.

He, instead of scrabbling away and clinging to anything he could (and just making it longer) like many of us would, stood tall, squared his shoulders, and walked into it's maw.

This really is a western attitude. Take a look at Japan, where suicide is considered an honourable death, even preferred over being a living failure. Buddhist cultures like Thailand or Cambodia, the reincarnation religions combined with life being cheap, easy for them to justify what we westerns consider absolutely stupid behaviour (Driving is the first thing that comes to mind) with "it OK, I come back, next life". Of course they don't want to die, but there isn't the absolute fear of it that we have in the western world.

The church is the biggest reason we have laws against suicide. Taking your own life is the only real power we have, to live or to die and the bible says that only God has the right to decide who lives and who dies thus suicide is a sin. We are trained to despise death from day one, we've built legal systems around this making it "wrong" to take your own life and even worse to spare someone pain by assisting suicide (Euthanasia). So by this logic, suicide is not considered bravery, on the contrary it is selfishness and I suppose that it is to an extent but it is the one bit of selfishness we should be entitled to.

I applaud this person for choosing when he was to die. I too would rather end it quickly then become an inconvenience on others with a terminal illness, plus I'd get to organise a really big party before I go (a bit morbid yes, but so is a funeral). Also look up Einstein's death he too also chose to go with a bit of grace by refusing life exending surgery. quoting Einstein,

"I want to go when I want. It is tasteless to prolong life artificially. I have done my share, it is time to go. I will do it elegantly."

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[fractoid]

Add that to a race with death on any road you can come up with, so long as it has either a sheer cliff on one side, or the occasional overhead bridge, and you're golden.

Sheer cliff? Are you intending to be Thelma or Louise? ;)

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Idiomatick]

Death isn't an unknown it just isn't that exciting.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you really think a guy facing imminent death gives a rat's ass about the IRS? Imagine having absolutely nothing to look forward to. Your future is a brick wall. You can't see past it because there is nothing past it. Faced with a slow, agonizing journey to oblivion or a momentarily painful express ride, which would you choose? Well, he opted for the latter, and I'd be willing to bet he wasn't thinking about the IRS when he did it. Well, maybe a quick "heh, fuck them," but that's it.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[YeeHaW_Jelte]

Thanks for sharing, you touched me. I hope life is kind for you from now on.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Kadin2048]

> Suicide for release of suffering has a singular beneficiary. Suicide in protest benefits all but that individual. The distinction is obvious.

That's where you're wrong. Someone who decides to commit suicide rather than undergoing expensive medical treatment to stave off death as long as possible has many beneficiaries. Everyone in society benefits, in some way, by that person not demanding that resources be wasted on prolonging a life that they don't want to lead anymore anyway, and which they think will only bring themselves and others pain.

In a less material sense, someone who commits suicide may do so less to spare themselves pain and suffering (or in addition to that), but rather to spare others the truly dismal experience of having to watch someone they loved waste slowly away, until they finally expire, a shadow of what they used to be, a living corpse kept alive by machines and attendants. The wrenching dilemmas of final medical decisions are avoided; relatives and children are not forced by social convention to stand at the bedside of someone who no longer even resembles, in mind or body, anyone they have ever known; fond memories are not polluted by the gross indignities of slow, wasting death.

The person who kills themselves is often the least of the beneficiaries involved. In many cases, it is a far more selfless action than it is a selfish one.

Life is not a battle that can be won or lost. In the end, we are all dead. I do not fault those who find it necessary to resist death to the very end and with every resource that they can muster or cause to be mustered on their behalf, but I do not see anything laudable about it.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Hognoxious]

pallitive services are an enourmous rainmaker. The painless don't spend $2000+/day for intensive care. I just don't think you can brush off a quantifiable percentage of the economy like that.

Sounds like a case of broken window to me. The resources put into palliative care could be used for something else. Possibly even finding a cure.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Kadin2048]

That doesn't even make a damn bit of sense.

The type of suicide we are talking about here, stemming from the actual case in question, are people facing long, drawn-out death and intensive medical treatment that will only minimally extend their lives and provide them little quality-of-life.

There is no valid comparison to murder except in the most trivial sense, namely that someone ends up dead. But that is stupid, and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you're not seriously advancing such an argument. "Murder" -- which in this case I'll take as someone murdering someone else more or less at random, or at least who doesn't want to die -- kills someone and cuts short what might have been many years of productive labor.

You could, I suppose, compare medical suicide to forced euthanasia of the (hypothetical) "death panel" variety, and that comparison -- on purely economic grounds -- would be valid. Of course, that just demonstrates the futility and danger of making judgment calls based on economics. The reason why forced euthanasia is repellent isn't because it's economically bad, but because it's morally repugnant to most people who believe in any concept of individual autonomy and self-determination.

Ironically, it's many of the same moral arguments that one can make against forced euthanasia -- individual autonomy, self-determination -- that seem to argue most strongly in favor of allowing and de-stigmatizing medical suicide.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Trahloc]

I won't argue it being brave, but its sad that he had to do it alone and in such a violent manner. Would it not have been better if he could legally have someone help him end his life so that he could have thrown one last 'going away' party for his family and friends. Tell them goodbye and then peacefully (and less messily) check out?

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Capsaicin]

If I had incurable cancer and knew it would end very painfully, I'd off myself first. I'd probably go as long as they gave me morphine and then heroin for the pain tho.

I reckon an overdose of morphine or heroin (which is just morphine with an advanced delivery system), would be the preferred way to go out, period. I say this because of the stories one frequently hears of paramedics being assaulted after they administer Naloxone to a dying user. "Arsehole, you ruined my stone!" Must be a pleasant way to go if you get that angry at having your life saved. :o

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[martin-boundary]

He decided to go out on his own terms.

It would suck though, if his doctors misdiagnosed him.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[YeeHaW_Jelte]

Speaking from a country that has had legal euthanasia for quite some years already:

"For like 25 centuries doctors have been swearing the Hippocratic oath, which explicitly states "do no harm.""

Inappropriately lengthening peoples lives and pain in the case of a severe illness can be construed to be doing harm. Doctors are used to keeping people alive and using this as a metric for their effectiveness. Maybe there should be a bigger focus on quality of life and less on plainly being alive.
Also, keeping someone alive because of your own personal (religious) beliefs is morally objectionable if the patient does not share these beliefs.
I'll leave to the readers imagination what I think of the moral implications of the problems in applying the death penalty as you describe it.

"Also there's the problem of whether the elderly will feel pressured to go to euthanasia (as seen in Soylent Green and Deus Ex) to spare the financial burden on their kids or society."

First, get a decent healthcare system to spread the costs. It seems every discussion on slashdot heads in the direction of the US healthcare system lately, maybe there's change in the air.
Secondly, financial considerations are also weighed by medical staff in the decision to use a certain treatment to keep someone alive or not. This is one of the most serious dilemma's we'll face in the decades coming: how much is a life worth or how much is another year of living worth. This stems directly from the invention of new and costly medical treatments and this issue will be important, regardless of legalizing euthanasia or not.

"And there's the catch-22 issue of sound mind: euthanasia candidates must be making a rational decision, but anyone petitioning for euthanasia is acting irrationally..."

I see no paradox here except in your mind: why is petitioning for euthanasia irrational?

"Obviously there should be a better way than taking a gun into a closet, but immediately jumping into legalizing euthanasia would be inappropriate and dangerous."

I don't think anyone is suggesting this. Do you? I think most people in favor of legalizing euthanasia have a very sound idea of what checks and balances should be in place to prevent misuse. I know there are many safeguards in place in the dutch system for legal euthanasia and I think the practice is widely supported and considered far superior to blasting ones brains out in desperation.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Trahloc]

Thank you for that, I almost choked to death on Fritos :P

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Kadin2048]

Except what you seem to ignore is that all the runners in this particular race, every single goddamn one of us, is going to make it to the end. The same end. There's no different finish line for people who get there by suicide and people who don't conk out until someone shuts off their ventilator and pulls their breathing tube out. Either way, you're dead. What's beyond that is a point of debate, but we're all crossing the same finish line.

So it's just a matter of picking the route you want to run. You, apparently, seem to think that the slow-death route is the more scenic one; quite a few people believe the exact opposite -- that since we're all going to the same place anyway, no need to slog through a briar patch just to prove that it can be done. Quite a bit easier, especially if you have a pretty good idea of what going through the briar patch is going to involve, to just go around.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[glwtta]

Religion?

Or a medical industry the brings in the lion's share of its profits from the last years of people's lives.

No, it's religion - it's been around for a few thousand years longer, so it's had a bit more of an impact.

Seriously though, it's amazing how much energy and effort religions had to, until relatively recent times, put into keeping people from offing themselves. And it's pretty universal, too. In all the reincarnation-based religions, for example, getting reincarnated isn't some wonderful chance to do it all over, but basically punishment for not leading a good enough life to escape the cycle of rebirth. If you try hard enough, some day they'll let you shuffle off the mortal coil for good!

Guess life was pretty shit for most people, for a rather long time.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[GradiusCVK]

Rather than face the pain he knows, clinging to another few years, days, hours with loved ones, he instead walked headfirst into what could very well be worse pain and debilitation (think any religion's hell), yet clearly in a desire to avoid the pain and debilitation that he knew.

That's clear to you? I'm amazed at your total knowledge of the subject. Let me add a few additional considerations (of which you are obviously aware) for the rest of the readers without your gift.

My aunt died of breast cancer about ten years ago - I was in middle school at the time, and understandably ignorant of most aspects of the real world. She had been diagnosed maybe 7 or 8 years before that. The woman was incredible - driven, successful, brilliant, beautiful, and one of the most caring and compassionate people I've ever known.

Her family was wealthy, and with her own success and that of my uncle (got out of a high level position in AT&T at exactly the right time), she had the means to fight the disease better than most... and fight she did. She consulted with doctors all over the world, tried the most advanced treatments available, stuck strictly to regimens that many people give up on because of the pain, and never complained, cried, or once gave us reason to pity her beyond our knowledge of her disease (at least, not that I, my parents, or my grandparents ever witnessed... my uncle no doubt has a much different perspective on this).

She was incredibly strong - until the bitter end, she struggled to hide the horrors of the disease from everyone. Until the very end of her struggle, I was mostly unaware of any ill effects - she wore stylish hats to hide her hair loss, covered her pale complexion with make up, wore heavier clothes add bulk to her wasting body... everything possible just to make us happy and comfortable around her, despite the dizziness, nausea, pain, fear, despair, and everything else she was hiding behind her smile. She had a young daughter that she didn't want to traumatize, and friends and family who loved her dearly. She felt she had to present an optimistic, healthy, happy appearance to us so we wouldn't mourn her while she still fought her battle.

Why did she fight? I have no idea. Maybe she was afraid of death (somehow I doubt this was high on my aunt's list of priorities). Maybe she genuinely thought she might live to help raise her daughter (she was about 13 when she died - my aunt succeeded in seeing her grow to be a smart, beautiful young woman). Maybe there were financial (i.e. insurance, inheritance, whatever) reasons. Maybe she felt suicide would be too traumatic for us to deal with. Maybe she was afraid of whatever afterlife may await those who commit suicide (she was a good Catholic). Maybe she didn't want to let random luck and an evil disease decide her fate for her without at least fighting with all she had. Maybe it was all of these, or something else, or nothing at all. The point is, she chose to fight, and we supported her in that decision... to the degree she allowed anyone to support her, of course.

I still look up to her to this day... her dignity and strength in dealing with the disease, and the beauty of the life she led. I think she made her decision mostly out of love for her family, and I will never criticize her decision to cling to life, not just because I don't know all the factors that went into the decision process, but because I'm not qualified to judge those factors or the weights she assigned to them. I will add a few observations, however.

Having seen her deterioration in the last year of her life, and the impact it had on my family, I can say that her slow, agonizing death certainly WAS a traumatic experience for us, despite her heroic efforts to hide it. My uncle was a broken man (he's not nearly so strong as my aunt was) for the last few years, and the pain has never subsided (though he's gotten better at hiding it). The effect on the family might have been different had she chosen a different path, but

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[X0563511]

It would have, but for the legislation against doing so.

Probably the fault of the "Think of the Children" type crowd.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[mrjb]

Sky diving without a chute [...] is quick, sure, and painless.

Yeah, everybody knows skydiving without chute is painless. What hurts is hitting the ground.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Poorcku]

Suicide is what it is. It is the intentional killing of one's self. And are you saying that his illness did not influence his state of mind?

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[dintech]

Me too. Your comment raises the point though: Ultimately, life is eventually unkind and everyone passes. I guess there's nothing to stop that final "unfairness" that we all must face.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[jotaeleemeese]

"From a certain perspective, that is cowardice."

"From a certain perspective, that is stupidity."

The "certain" perspectives you talk about are from somebody that is illogical and selfish.

I reckon that many people that know they are dying would chose to cut short the indignities of a long death if there was a legal way to obtain final painless relief .

Anybody that has seen a close relative wasted away by disease knows that there would be no cowardice or stupidity in somebody deciding to end life a bit sooner but with some degree of dignity.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[xouumalperxe]

Personally, I'd rather not be the kind of jerk that leaves a huge mess for someone else to clean up when it's time to fold up my affairs, but YMMV.

Richard Egan, it appears, was that sort of jerk. Offing yourself with a shotgun blast to the head in the linen closet? Sheesh.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[selven]

suicide is the single most selfish act a person can commit.

If you're a normal, productive person, sure (I don't think it, or assisting it should be illegal though). But if you're leeching thousands of dollars of healthcare money every day, I think it's the ultimate sacrifice for the public good.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Daemonax]

Euthanasia, the more youths the better, as an old technician I used work with would say.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[catmistake]

The type of suicide we are talking about here

we? You're are trying to make a distinction where there is none. Suicide is suicide.

There is no valid comparison to murder except in the most trivial sense, namely that someone ends up dead. But that is stupid, and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you're not seriously advancing such an argument.

Yes, I am advancing that argument. Suicide is a subset of murder. Suicide is when you murder yourself.

"Murder" -- which in this case I'll take as someone murdering someone else more or less at random, or at least who doesn't want to die -- kills someone and cuts short what might have been many years of productive labor.

Your definition is needlessly complex. What have the victim's intentions got to do with it? It's not murder if you kill someone that wants to die?

I define murder as an intentional and premeditated killing. Suicide falls into that category.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Tomfrh]

I wouldn't say it's totally different, because in both cases you have a person deciding life is no longer worth living and then killing themselves.

In fact certain pro-euthanasia groups argue that euthanasia should be allowed for people with depression.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[catmistake]

Hey, its my metaphor, and you've screwed it up. The "race" in the metaphor is, of course, life. But the "finish line" is not just any death, but natural death, i.e. dying of natural causes.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[anilg]

One explanation would be he did it as he did: to start a dialog in the public on the topic of legal euthanasia.. and if so, his was successful. This subject could possibly have been on his mind when he was pondering about suicide.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Keen Anthony]

If you do decide to end it all, I hope you would have the courtesy of doing so in a manner that doesn't harm your bystanders. Every now and again, I get news about some jackass who decided he wanted to kill himself, and then went out onto the highway to slam his car into another vehicle or walk out in front of traffic or a train. I remember once witnessing the moments after a suicide on an opposing Metra Rail track. We had to sit there for 40 minutes as people came to spray the area. The passengers on the other train had to have been sitting there even longer. All I could think was, that guy was a real dick.

I'm not normally judgmental about suicide. But one shouldn't traumatize people or potentially injure or even kill bystanders in the process. That's just selfish.

When I finally do the deed myself, I wish to be in my nice comfy chair with a favorite drink, a favorite song playing, and maybe my TV playing some video that means a lot to me. I don't have time for displays of machismo, and I'm not rude enough to leave a bloody mess for someone to clean up after.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Keen Anthony]

I can relate with the family. I'm watching my mother die slowly from a very advanced paranoid schizophrenia. She's starving herself to death essentially and depriving herself of sleep because her mind is restless. So, I'm watching a woman, who in her prime was once a beautiful runway model who graced billboards throughout the '70s and early '80s and who loved history and art, wither away. Medically, there's nothing to be done.

It's hardest for the caregivers who have to deal with a loved one's terminal life, and it's made even more difficult by the guilt caregivers often feel over sometimes wishing that their love one would just die already rather than suffer and continue to steal away the life energy of those surrounding them.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Nefarious Wheel]

"THERE IS NO JUSTICE," said Death, "THERE IS ONLY ME." -- Terry Pratchett

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[ta bu shi da yu]

Now that's not a bad way to go. Suicide through bash.org.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Keen Anthony]

In terms of social darwinism, suicide can be either good or bad. If we lose a brilliant contributor to society, then it is clearly bad, but if we lose reclusive asocial wanker who was more likely to take from society than add to it, then suicide is a good thing.

Suicide shouldn't have more than a nominally detrimental effect on the economy, but I can see an exception in the suicide of some greatly revered business or political icon. I noticed that Apple stock took a hit on the hint that Steve Jobs was too ill to run the company any longer.

How can a suicide not be selfish just because it is in protest? A person who would rather kill himself in protest than live under a disagreeable system should be just as selfish by definition as a person who commits suicide rather than suffer painful terminal illness.

I agree with you to the extent that removing religion would not make suicide any less a terrible thing. Morality and the recognition that life has value predate modern religion. It's part of our programming to favor life. And suicide should never be regarded casually because it is always a sad thing when a life is taken.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Keen Anthony]

Careful now, you don't want to end up being outed on Fox News and CNN as a left wing politico who said those words at a nursing home banquet, do ya?

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[mehrotra.akash]

but wouldnt this lead to the advent of recreational euthanasia

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Virak]

And forcing someone to live when they for whatever reason dislike life so much that they want to fucking die is just the most kind and selfless thing ever, right?

That sort of thing is about the most ridiculous and disgusting argument against suicide possible, and you should really feel deeply ashamed for even considering it reasonable. (The people who modded this garbage up are idiots too)

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Hognoxious]

Unfortunately the option of hitching a ride with Ted Kennedy is no longer available.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[noidentity]

Yes, suicide: " The act or an instance of intentionally killing oneself."

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[bkr1_2k]

Anyone concerned about leaving anything to his family would most certainly be concerned about the IRS. I have no idea what he was involved in but if it's large enough it's very easy to see why it could affect his decision. Better to check out and have the debt "erased". The IRS doesn't always do that, but sometimes they do. Furthermore, when you consider the cost involved in a terminal disease like lung cancer, it just adds more weight to the whole thing.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[hackus]

Bravery or cowardice?

Its easy to die, very difficult to live life.

Even the NAZI concentration camp occupants chose to live, in a hell none of us could possibly imagine for many many MANY years, far longer than this gentleman had to live it sounds like.

They DID NOT commit suicide, and chose to fight.

Who is really brave here?

-Hack

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[aminorex]

When an ambassador commits suicide, the overwhelming preponderance of presumption should be that he was quietly "assisted" by the CIA.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[log0n]

Too many commas.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[aminorex]

Oh please. "Pain management" is a joke in the U.S. because the D.E.A. imprisons people in wheelchairs on dilaudid drips, and prosecutes their physicians. "Criminal justice" is not an oxymoron.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Talisman]

1987 called. It wants its lame joke back.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Talisman]

"See...just how far you can free-dive, and then push a bit further."

I freedive quite regularly, and have experienced two shallow water blackouts. I can tell you, assuming you have done proper breathe-ups to rid your system of CO2 before the dive, it would be an extremely peaceful way to go. Both times I blacked out, I wasn't even aware of what happened until it was showed to me on film. One second I'm ascending, the next, out cold. No pain, no discomfort, no fear.

If I ever off myself, that is probably how I'll do it.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[log0n]

Don't worry, he's gonna die just like the rest of us. Chances are, it'll be long, drawn out and very painful :)

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[log0n]

Rubber/glue is about as opposite from the Golden Rule as a kid's sing-song can get.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Ex-MislTech]

Remember him in the good times, he'd want it that way.

We are all going to die, and ppl have been doing it for millions of years.

How we go out often is clinging to that last bit of life, some just
decide they have had enough of the pain and want it to end "right now"

I will not question anyones choice as long as it does no endanger or traumatize other ppl.

We all have to endure what life throws at us, and your choice of exit is usually well earned.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[nycguy]

While I think Bill Maher is a misogynist dickhead...we euthanize animals on compassionate grounds, and yet we humans, we're expected to suffer.

While I wouldn't mind watching Bill Maher suffer, I do support his euthanization on compassionate grounds.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[mcgrew]

Bravery is when you're scared shitless of something, but you face it anyway.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[19thNervousBreakdown]

Save your insincere apologies for your children.

Somebody get a Wayans brother up in here, we need a Z snap, stat.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[autoevolution]

Death is a complete unknown. Rather than face the pain he knows, clinging to another few years, days, hours with loved ones, he instead walked headfirst into what could very well be worse pain and debilitation (think any religion's hell), yet clearly in a desire to avoid the pain and debilitation that he knew.

Back in the day when the bible was written if you got a terminal disease, you would die quickly. Today we have hospitals and medical treatments that drag on the process. The people who wrote the bible back then probably lived in a world where suicide was mostly done by people running away from things not related to health, therefore they despised those people who committed suicide. People back then simply didn't commit suicide because of health problems because they would die shortly anyways if they got a disease. I think if they saw how people with terminal diseases have their lives dragged on by medical treatments wouldn't have wrote that you go to hell for suicide.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[jfrankmbl]

I am all for euthanasia in terminal cases and people not wanting to live like a vegetable or be a large burden on their family. This man is not some angsty teen contemplating silvia plath in a candle-lit room. In all accounts this man lived a more courageous and productive life than 99% of us. To all the people arguing about bravery to live/cowardice in giving up: fuck you. Come back here and tell me how meaningful and brave it is to lie around waiting to die. The man had terminal lung cancer; there is no cure to "hold out" for, any treatment that could prolong his life would debilitate him further. Stop fearing death so much that you are willing to compromise on what you consider to be alive.

My concern with this is the man shot himself in the head. Given the resources available to him, he could have chosen something a little more graceful (like pills). We can't fully know his reasons, but it stands that if you are doing this to not be a burden on your family, you would not want them to come into as messy a scene.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[jonadab]

> Most people fear death - a lot.

Most people *think* they're afraid of death. But in fact, when it comes down to brass tacks, most people are much MORE afraid of pain, especially if it is severe and/or prolonged.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[mcgrew]

It sounds like my uncle Dan. He had Lou Gherig's disease, unlike most with that illness he was quite elderly when he started showing symptoms, in his eighties.

In the end, with his wife, children, and brothers by his side, he reached up and removed his breathing mask.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[autoevolution]

I think if the people who wrote the bible saw how terminally ill people suffer extended periods of medical treatment before they die in modern times they would have written the bible differently. Back then you didn't need to commit suicide when you were terminally ill because you would die quickly enough that it didn't matter.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Attila Dimedici]

My father also died of cancer. He fought it for close to five years. My father-in-law also died of cancer. I hope I have the strength to face death as bravely as both of them. Like them I won't quit on the people around me who love me. I will fight to the end, not because I fear death, but to remain with my loved ones as long as they need me to/I am able to.
Less than a week before my father's death, he took off work early to go to a doctor's appointment with my Mom. On the way, the car got a flat tire which he changed. At the appointment, the doctor said that the tumor had started growing again and suggested stopping Chemo for a month or two and then deciding what to do. That was a Friday. That Sunday the church I grew up in had a service for my father where many people who had known him came and expressed their love and support for him and my family. That afternoon, he discussed with my brother (an engineer) how to deal with a problem with the equipment at my Dad's work then laid down in his bed for a nap. He never got out of that bed (except with help to go to the bathroom). The following Thursday he talked on the phone with another brother who lived out of state. His last words were "It's OK."
Life is a series of tests, suicide is cheating on the final exam.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[mcgrew]

As a result of a horriffic auto wreck in 1976 I don't really fear death, but I absolutely HATE pain.

I'm disappointed in wikipedia today -- there is very little on his wikipedia page, especially considering his many accomplishments. It's the most pathetic page I've seen there; no date of birth, no explanation of his method of suicide. One-sentence descriptions of his work in Apollo, etc.

But Michael Jackson, he's got craploads on his page. Would someone please fix the Egan page?

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[WaywardGeek]

Actually, this is my favourite of my various half-assed suggestions. At one particularly hard point in my past (after a divorce) I was doing many foolish things, not particularly caring if I died. Now, 50 feet of depth isn't much for an experienced free-diver, but I'm only comfortable down to about 20'. The one time I dived down to 50', I looked up and thought "Well, this is it." But, it wasn't. However, if it had been, I was prepared for it - not upset or scared... actually more like thrilled. I was in Hawaii, and right at the bottom, a huge eel swam past me, which I thought was way cool. If I'd tried 60', I doubt I'd have made it back. Anyway, with free-diving, hopefully the current takes away your body, and sea creatures get you, and no one is left cleaning up a bloody mess.

A similar experience was swimming out into seriously rough surf. I haven't died yet, so I can't say what it would be like, but battling surf is a bit like being in a fight. Adrenaline pumps you up, and you swim until you've got nothing left. I don't think death in a fight is all that bad of a way to go... you keep you're mind on the fight, instead of focusing on life slipping away. Once, a guy got me in a head lock and cut off circulation to my head. I didn't feel bad, I just kept struggling until I passed out. That would be an ok way to go.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Mjec]

Oregon euthanasia has a residency requirement...

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[jollyreaper]

How about taking an overdose of some very fun drug while enjoying the company of a well-paid lady friend?

At least you came before you went?

Imagine how fucked up that would be for her to experience, a man dying inside her. Don't be so inconsiderate.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[owlstead]

I somehow think you don't appreciate the psychological effect of finding a loved one without a head to speak of. Here in NL we've got train drivers that have a certain number of suicides and never recover.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[ta bu shi da yu]

Either that, or stupidity.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[jollyreaper]

Richard Egan, it appears, was that sort of jerk. Offing yourself with a shotgun blast to the head in the linen closet? Sheesh.

I've seen police video of that. IR from the chopper, perp crashes his car and runs behind a house. With the cops closing in and no other way out he lifts up something long to his head and suddenly there's pieces flying and he's surrounded by light splotches, a big one running down the wall. There couldn't have been much of a head left. It was disgusting to see when the man was no more than a light blur of of gray against darker grays and blacks. I can't imagine how awful that wound look up close and personal.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Critical Facilities]

My kingdom for a mod point!

Thank you for that thoughtful, Insightful (yes, capitalized) post. This is how one ought to look at the hand one is dealt in life/death. We all need to remember that life is what you make it, and that there will always be difficulties. It is our choices that dictate how/when/if our lives progress and have a positive impact on others.

We should also all keep in mind that we do not know the circumstances of this man's death, nor do we know what plans (if any) were made in conjunction with his choosing to end his life. Sure, we can all relate to the idea of choosing a "fast" death versus a long, suffering one. We should all keep in mind, though, that in so doing, he also removed the option of spending any more positive time with his family/friends/loved ones.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[elrous0]

There is nothing cowardly about accepting the inevitable and moving on. Without such "cowardice" we would still be fighting every war we ever engaged in (since no one would ever surrender). Sometimes fighting on is a futile, pointless, and wasteful act. Refusing to acknowledge that isn't bravery, it's foolishness.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[WaywardGeek]

Sounds like a great idea for a new startup company!

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Sponge Bath]

Bill: Ted?
Ted: What?
Bill: Don't "Fear the Reaper"!
[both of them do an air guitar]
Grim Reaper: I heard that.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Sardaukar86]

It can be impossible to imagine from our point of view but there are those who, being blessed with unusually long perspectives, say that while life is a very precious gift, death still remains the most incredible experience a person can have.

I have the same desire for things to be fair (e.g., good people seldom seem to be rewarded by life). I wonder sometimes if for the sake of our growth as a species we ought to remind ourselves from time to time that fairness is a human concept and not one mother nature feels any need to uphold. I know I stress less myself when I remember that life is not in the business of living up to our expectations even when innocent people are suffering.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[RagingFuryBlack]

As an active firefighter in a busy area, I ask too that you please off yourself in a way that doesn't require me to get out of bed at 0-dark-thirty hours, risk myself in an emergency response, and then proceed to cut your dead or dying ass out of a mangled car, or wash your brains off of an interstate highway. I also don't envy the cop who has to tell your next of kin how your stupid ass decided (s)he was being an idiot and killed some guy's innocent kid with your rocket of a motorcycle or corvette.
Thanks from your local public servant!

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[mcgrew]

Your watching you dad die sounds a lot like when I watched my friend Linda die.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[owlstead]

Both my parents died (just in their sixties) from cancer. My father had brain cancer, and the doctor did not think that he was thinking straight enough to make up his mind to choose euthanasia. He died in a rather horrible way because of a morphine overdose in the end (natural death my arse) after begging for it for a whole weekend. My mother died of euthanasia by a doctor. If I would recommend any way of dying from cancer it would be the last one. It was a relieve to see her go before things got really bad, although she was already unable to get out of bed.

But never forget how much humans are "stuck" to life. You must go really really far before "committing suicide" at that age. Only when my mothers body was really giving up *then* she was ready for the final moment, not before. This explains why so many people are against euthanasia - it literally goes against every gene in our body to release life. This has nothing to do with religion in general, IMHO. It also explains why people (including me) thinks it is brave to end your life before the agony really starts to begin. My mother was completely lucid when she choose to end her life - something I only hope I will have the courage to do.

That said, I am against shooting yourself, because it will traumatize your loved ones as well as those involved. This is also one reason why I am rather against laws that forbid euthanasia; you can see even very conservative people will choose for themselves anyway. The other one is of course that despite it going "against nature", my life is my life, and others don't have the right to make these kind of decisions for me.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Lord Ender]

So every terminal cancer patient who doesn't commit suicide isn't brave?

You might want to review your logic textbook from college. From "p -> q", it does not follow that "~p -> ~q".

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Anonymous Coward]

Life is a series of tests, suicide is cheating on the final exam.

I would've liked to see you say that if your father had spent his final few weeks screaming, because no amount of drugs could do anything but slightly dull the pain.

 
Your father was in good enough health to function until the end, that's great. I wish it was like that for everybody killed by cancer (or any other slow working malady). But that's not how it works.

 
There's suicide, and there's euthanasia. They are _not_ synonymous.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[owlstead]

To death? Or do you have a specific disease in mind? ;)

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[russotto]

Also there are a lot of thorny ethical issues. For like 25 centuries doctors have been swearing the Hippocratic oath, which explicitly states "do no harm." Doctors can't even prescribe lethal injections when a court orders execution; prisons have to get those drugs 'semi-legally' without going through a real doctor.

Why should a lethal injection be "prescribed"? A lethal injection isn't a medical treatment. It's an execution which happens to use medical apparatus.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Paul Pierce]

I didn't think that the Church was the biggest reason we had laws against suicide. I thought it was because of when people fail at committing suicide we can get them help - and/or put them in a loony bin.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[owlstead]

Thats just idiotic. The difference in ending your own life (that's *YOUR* own life) is so completely different from topping off somebody else. Do we even have to discuss that? Or do you want to go straight ahead and discuss longer prison sentences for those committing suicide?

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[mcgrew]

Stupidity is not being afraid of the danger in the first place.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[owlstead]

Advanced lung cancer? Misdiagnosed? Are you mad? You are more likely to misdiagnose the cause of his death than terminal lung cancer.

Anyway, even if it was misdiagnosed, anything that acts so bad as advanced malignant lung cancer *should* be fatal.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Kjella]

Why do both you and the parent focus so much on fear?

From what I've read about suicidals of pretty much every kind, it's about purpose. Like, what's the point of going on? Do you have something to live for? You can endure a lot of pain before it becomes insufferable crippling pain, if you have a purpose. You can sacrifice your own life, if you have a purpose. It's when you don't really have anything to live for but being comfortable and that is that taken away from you that you're out of good options.

Sure, we'd all like a beatiful sunset on life. But if it's full of rain and wind and only making you miserable, you can either stay up or head to bed early. Just do whatever you feel like.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[MyLongNickName]

No, moron, you are the selfish fuck. Kill yourself? Fine. Don't leave a mess for someone else to clean up.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[jdavidb]

I don't care if you want to kill yourself. (Well, I care, but I think it would be wrong to support the use of force to stop you.)

What I do care about is my fear that someone else will violate my religious principles and euthanize me! The case of Terri Schiavo scared me to death, because based on nothing but hearsay evidence, the woman's intent was concluded to be euthanasia. The previous legal default was to presume a person's intent would be to be kept alive, overridden only by a living will. This was not changed by any act of legislation that I know of. Now the presumption seems to be that people would prefer to be euthanized, which is not true in my case.

I'm all for your liberty, and I hope you're all for mine. I simply want the state out of both my and your end of life decisions.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[xouumalperxe]

Yeah, and think of all the linens his family will have to replace now.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[MaerD]

I think the full line is more appropriate for this situation:

THERE IS NO HOPE BUT US. THERE IS NO MERCY BUT US. THERE IS NO JUSTICE. THERE IS JUST US.

Personally, my favorite Discworld Death quote came just after that:

WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?

Rest in peace, Mr. Egan. Hopefully you found all you wished in the care of the Reaper.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[JWSmythe]

    Nah, AC posting is usually reserved for trolls. :) I love seeing good insightful posts from AC's, but they're so rare that it's a surprise. I know, sometimes people don't have accounts to post with, but really the AC at the top of the message usually means there's a troll following.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[operagost]

It could easily be argued that choosing to live in the face of enduring pain is brave. Many cultures believe that suicide is cowardly for this reason.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Ant P.]

You're (5^-1)/2?

Wait... wrong golden rule...

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Darby]

Imagine how fucked up that would be for her to experience, a man dying inside her. Don't be so inconsiderate.

There has to be at least one woman out there twisted enough to consider that a turn on. She'd end up making a fortune ;-)

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Brian Gordon]

The hippocratic oath includes "to abstain from doing harm"

I didn't know that they didn't take it anymore, thanks

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[pyrr]

The guy lived his life, saw the end coming and chose not to suffer. The only sad part is that our sick society is in such denial about the inevitability of death that he was forced to choose such a gruesome method rather than having the option of something more peaceful.

More peaceful, like "going home", reclining in a chaise lounge, surrounded by a gorgeous panoramic video view of pre-dystopian-future Earth, with classical music playing in the background as one drinks a poison-laced beverage (nb: this is not necessarily "drinking the kool aid")?

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[operagost]

That movie needs more cowbell.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Brian Gordon]

It is not clear how drugs available only on the prescription of a doctor are available for execution. The AMA Code of ethics specifically prohibits prescription by a doctor of the drugs for lethal injection. Ethical and legal constraints forbid pharmacists dispensing a drug without a valid prescription. A valid prescription can only be written by a doctor with an established relationship to the patient, with the patient's consent, for the benefit of the patient, and in the area of the doctor's expertise, among other requirements.

Also see this article.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[operagost]

Opinions: everyone has them. Yours is no better than anyone elses-- that is, if we really speaking logically.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[JWSmythe]

    I saw an article about that for here in the states. They said the average train engineer (the guy driving, not designing the train) experiences 3 suicides in his career. Human vs train never turns out well for the human. They had some interesting quotes. One was talking about how he continued to drive the same route, and every time he passed the place where he had hit a suicidal person, it bothered him severely. I'd hate to be him. When my step-son died, going into his room generally broke us all down to tears. After he died, it was still his room. We didn't change it, other than straightening up a little, which we did sometimes anyways. His laundry was all done and put away. His computer stayed on, but we left a memorial video playing in a loop on it. That was a room we didn't have to go into. How hard would it be to have to drive past the same spot the same that someone walked in front of him, and have to wonder if it's going to happen every time you pass there.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[ca111a]

Also, don't forget to sign the organ donor card if you haven't done that earlier.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[justin12345]

As far as new cars go, all you really have to do is disable the air bags, unless you need it to look like an accident. Its not hard to just remove them. I'd use a Porche: rear mounted engine so there is nothing between you and whatever you hit at 200 Mph. Ultimately I'd say drugs are the way to go. No bloody mess for someone to clean up (not much mess at all if you remember to use the bathroom first). Painless if you use the right ones: opiates and barbiturates. Easy availability, you can get heroin in pretty much any major city and its cheap too, I'd imagine $100-$500 worth would kill a non-tolerant user if injected all at once.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[lysergic.acid]

Yes, I'm quite familiar with inverses relations, contrapositives, converse, etc., etc. And it really depends on the propositions and how the statement is constructed.

For example, the statement: "All triangles are 3-sided." can be broken down as:
If (P)a shape has 3 sides then (Q)it is a triangle.
The inverse of that is:
If (!P)a shape does not have 3 sides then (!Q) it is not a triangle.

Obviously, the second statement is true.

Likewise, if you say that most people, when faced with terminal illness, cling to life because they fear death. Add on top of that, you say that this man is brave precisely because he committed suicide. Then, yes, it is implying that (because bravery is a lack of fear) those who don't commit suicide (ie. cling to life out of fear of death) are not brave. Not to mention: "instead of scrabbling away and clinging to anything he could" kinda implies that that is the only other option to suicide (to say nothing about his word choice).

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[binary paladin]

And if you think religion has more power over the minds of people in modern industrialized nations than the corporate economy, you're deluding yourself. I'm certainly not saying religion has nothing to do with it, but as I said in another post, look at our "justice" system:

It's cruel and unusual to kill someone but locking them up in a little room alone 23-hours a day in a maximum security penitentiary is "civilized"? Keep in mind, historically the "religious" were the ones most in favor of killing these guys. And what did they lose out to? The fact that there's more money to be made in keeping them alive in a private prison than there is to just get it over with.

So much for those thousands of years of impact. And even if it's not just the money interests, something changed in the population in a very rapid manner to go from "kill the criminals and let God deal with them" to "they have to live!" We've been killing "the guilty" for about as long as religion's been around.

I see I was flagged as a troll too. I keep forgetting that on Slashdot I have to concede that religion is the root of ever evil perpetrated on the mind of man and any thinking that goes against that is gonna get modded down. Oh well. I just get sick to deal of religion being the scapegoat for everything around here.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[TheGratefulNet]

and some might say, its only the lunatics that have decided NOT to kill themselves.

think on that a while.

life sucks for a lot of people. it usually gets worse as you get older, too (more sickness, less opportunity, etc).

having to 'stick it out' is only a by-product of religion. any other sensible area in life LETS you quit any time you want.

no one signed any contracts promising to stay alive until the final breath dies on its own. the right to self-terminate for any reason is fundamental to any society that calls itself 'free'.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[retchdog]

I think the norm for good life insurance policies is that they cover suicide after an initial ~2-year period. This is apparently enough to remove most of the desperate schemers.

I only looked at so-called "cooperatives", as opposed to for-profit companies.

(Apropos of nothing: I still don't see the point of getting any life insurance as opposed to just investing, unless you do actually plan to kill yourself in 2 years.)

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[retchdog]

Free-fall isn't entirely sure, but pretty close: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-fall#Surviving_falls

Certainly better than the car accident, even under "optimal" conditions.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[kemushi88]

Buddhist cultures like Thailand or Cambodia, the reincarnation religions combined with life being cheap, easy for them to justify what we westerns consider absolutely stupid behaviour (Driving is the first thing that comes to mind) with "it OK, I come back, next life".

I guess that depends on an individual's perspective, but the general consensus among Buddhists I've spoken to is that one should consider themselves very fortunate to be born a human, as it is in this form we have one of the rare opportunities to achieve enlightenment and break the perpetual cycle of rebirth and suffering. Depending on how you lived your life, the chances of just "coming back" next life are very slim.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[BlackSnake112]

So a note, a bathtub full of water, and a box jellyfish (or that other tiny related one)?

Some people want to die for various reasons. Some do not want a long drawn out death. Some want to escape from something. Should society help those who want to die? I would vote yes but it depends on the situation. If the person is dying of cancer, or some other incurable disease and they want to die. Then they should be allowed to die peacefully. If the person just wants an escape, no. Life is often cruel. Part of life is overcoming obstacles.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[frank_adrian314159]

The church is the biggest reason we have laws against suicide. Taking your own life is the only real power we have, to live or to die and the bible says that only God has the right to decide who lives and who dies thus suicide is a sin.

Luckily, in the state I live in, we have dismissed these ignorant notions and we have a choice to die peacefully.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Sir_Lewk]

From what I've heard, jellyfish are one of the most excruciatingly painful ways to go.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[frank_adrian314159]

The sad thing is this guy should NOT have had to go in a closet and blow his head off.

Move to Oregon and you don't have to. This is one of the many things I am proud of my adopted state for pioneering.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[gobbo]

Right! As the saying goes: "I want to die quietly in my sleep like my grandfather... not screaming and crying like his passengers."

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Eternauta3k]

When we went on a schooltrip to the Iguazu Falls we said if one of us wanted to commit suicide the best way to do it would be jump into the falls. They're magnificent at a distance, and they must be incredible to jump into.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[JWSmythe]

    I read your post. I'm sorry. Ok, that's a completely worthless thing to say, but we all do it anyways. How about, thanks for sympathizing with me, at least we know there are a few people in the world who have gone through what we have. I don't wish it on anyone else.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[frank_adrian314159]

it's pretty naive to think he couldn't have just hopped a plane to say, Oregon, and offed himself there neatly and legally.

It's a pretty high bar to hop here in Oregon - you have to be diagnosed by two doctors, have to be certified as being of sound mind and not depressed, and also have less than six months left. We generally don't meet folks off the plane at PDX and ask "Hey! You want a cyanide capsule?" (well, except for Californians...).

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[rbanffy]

"That, is bravery."

Erm... Could be.

Dying of cancer is slow and painful, but the end result is the same as a bullet. If there is some life after death, he would find it out sooner or later. Suicide is seldom a rational choice and, as it is, he deprived himself of the slim possibility of being cured.

Freak accidents do happen. Chemotherapy works in some cases.

I know I would certainly not chose this route.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Cthefuture]

I don't know. I fear pain more than death. I think that is true for most people in fact. Generally dying is going to be quite painful so that's the real fear, not necessarily the death part.

So if you're facing a long painful death, suicide probably looks pretty attractive for most anyone I bet.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[CannonballHead]

"Informative" ...

I suppose it's more brave to respond with name calling. ;)

Anyways, to answer the question: do I know what it's like? No, not personally. Have I had family members with terminal diseases? Yes. One in particular... she wanted to spend as much time as she could with her loving family. She never complained about the obvious pain she was in. She was alone for the last 20 years of her life (her husband died much before her). Her wits were almost completely with her, yet she lived in a rest home surrounded by many who were "losing it." I would call that just as brave, if not more so.

Am I saying there is not some sense of bravery, as the original poster said? No, I'm not saying that. On the other hand, we sometimes have a very, very messed up idea about bravery. We define bravery, typically, as kind of ... haphazard, not caring about what happens to you, etc. I would say that bravery is more the willingness to do what you know, or at least "feel," to be right, even though it will hurt, cause you pain, and be difficult. It's not not-being-afraid... it's doing it even though you are afraid. As Don Knotts said in The Ghost and Mr. Chicken, "...doing one's duty no matter what is scaring him personally." Funny movie, but I think he hit it pretty much right on.

I won't judge what the co-founder of EMC's reasons were. But it sure sounded like the original poster was saying that if we all had the same "bravery" that this guy had, we'd all "check out on our own terms."

That is why I asked for the definition. I don't call avoidance of pain bravery, I'd call that human instinct. Facing the unknown isn't necessarily bravery, either. Throwing yourself to fate could be considered stupidity. Was it? I can't say, I don't know what was going on in his mind.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[gobbo]

Three of my grandparents died of cancer. Two had lung cancer: one died in her 70's, her husband fought it and survived to live another 12 years, including getting remarried to a younger woman when he was 80 and travelling around the world on cruise ships playing shuffleboard and bridge... whatever floats your boat, I guess. The lung cancer reclaimed him in the end, though. Both he and his wife had unpleasant deaths, despite the sucess in beating cancer the first time. The irony: he was a tobacco executive, starting off as a small town tobacco rep in the 1930's, and so was an insider on the dangers. The company comp'ed him and his wife a free carton of smokes every week. Saves on paying out pensions I guess!

My other grandfather died of throat cancer (he smoked the filterless raunchy cigs), but was a shining example of how to manage the end of a full life, with a painful disease. He remarried to a 40-year-old when he was 80 (not a gold-digger, it's complicated) and had a lusty last couple of years, the old dog. He worked in his beloved fields (a subsistence peasant farmer) until the day he went to the hospital, then died a month later. He would have died earlier, but was waiting for various family members to visit. At last, after a ceremonial drink of his own wine, he told the group of us to "go, go, I can die now" -- and he died a couple of hours later, obviously under control of his own will. Badass.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Quothz]

The hippocratic oath includes "to abstain from doing harm"

Whoopsie - you're right, depending on translation:

I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone.

I was looking at:

I will apply dietic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice.

Sorry about that. Still, it's academic, since doctors don't take it.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[vertinox]

From a certain perspective, that is cowardice.

The only people I know personally died from cancer died peacefully in their sleep... After months of pain and surgery and living under the influence of morphine.

When they were awake they weren't aware anyways... And hospice basically had to clean their sheets every time they used the bathroom.

If you want to spend the last few months of your life crapping yourself in a drug crazed stupor, by all means.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[riverat1]

If you're as wealthy as he apparently was what's the point of buying life insurance?

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[david_thornley]

While my son spent a few months having bad colic, not all babies do. Nor was he confused; he was simply figuring out things. He did drool and wasn't instantly toilet-trained, but my wife and I knew that he was going to get over it, and about on what schedule.

If you don't understand the difference between a healthy baby and a terminally ill old person, I don't have much hope for your other opinions on the subject.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[DamnStupidElf]

But the "finish line" is not just any death, but natural death, i.e. dying of natural causes.

I would guess that over 50% of people still living crossed that finish line and kept running with the assistance of modern medicine. Infant mortality is a sliver of what it once was back when it was "natural" to lose half your children. Similarly, not dying of smallpox, measles, polio, a staph infection, or any number of other common "natural" ailments is much more interference with your definition of a natural death than suicide ever will be.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[fumblebruschi]

First off, the Hippocratic Oath does not say "do no harm"

Yes it does. epi dhlhsei de kai adikihi eirxein: "abstain from doing harm".

The National Institute of Health phrases it as "I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone."

doctors don't take it any more and haven't in my lifetime

Some still do. Most medical schools administer some form of oath, and many use the Hippocratic version.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[vertinox]

He blew his head off with a shotgun because that's the way he wanted to go out, clearly.

There is always the chance of messing up your suicide attempt. Hanging, posions, wrist cutting doesn't always work. Even with a 9mm some people have been known to survive, albeit in a very painful existence or mentally incapacitated.

A shotgun to the head would pretty much mean death would be ensured.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[brkello]

Then sky dive, land, and then take a bunch of pills or a lethal injection. Don't traumatize people and make a huge mess. You are also damaging the sport you supposedly love by putting a death on record for a sky diving company. You are completely thinking about yourself. GP is thinking of others. Do you not understand the definition of selfish? Look it up and go feel stupid for awhile.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[brkello]

Umm, if you knew this, then you understand why your original post is stupid, right? It isn't implying anything. I could say someone is brave to commit suicide and face death. I could say someone is brave to face pain instead of death. You could also say the opposite about people. We really don't know what is the case with this person. We just knew he died. The OP was just trying to look at this person in a good light despite how many people view suicide. But you have to come along and argue semantics? Pointless. A guy dies. Someone tries to say something nice. You go off the deep end pulling implications out of your ass while you ignore what the guy was trying to say.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[brkello]

I completely disagree with you. There is no catch-22. There are plenty of rational reason to want to die on your own terms. People being forced in to euthanasia is not acceptable. If people want to die, the Dr. is not doing harm, they are doing their patients wishes. Not allowing them the option is causing harm.

We have no ethical qualms about putting animals "to sleep". In fact, we consider that humane. Is it any different for humans? No, only to religious people that want to force their beliefs on others.

This isn't a complicated issue. This isn't even close to a new issue either. So your "inappropriate and dangerous" comment isn't warranted. It is just an excuse to delay what doesn't need to be delayed.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[GradiusCVK]

Your mother is truly a hero, as are the ones who love her and had to experience that nightmare together. I don't know anything about her specific situation, but I do know this: even when caught early and given a good prognosis, being diagnosed with cancer is probably the single scariest thing I can imagine happening to a person. Death is slow and painful, and its victims often feel humiliated and degraded by their own helplessness and the crippling effects it has on their bodies. Medical technology and new insights into palliative care and quality-of-life improvements are leading to more successful outcomes and happier, longer lives, but it's never a certainty, and the fear alone is one I'd never wish on my worst enemy, regardless of prognosis.

From what I've seen, going through that ordeal, regardless of some notion of "relative severity", universally brings out the best, most heroic aspects of any person. I'm so happy for you and your mother, and as traumatic as it must have been at the time, I think you are probably enjoying a love and togetherness with her that you might otherwise not have had. It's your story I find inspirational, and I can only hope that successes like this will become more frequent with better technologies and methods so more families will be able to enjoy and love each other the way you are able to now.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[brkello]

Yes, I am human. Just so we are on the same page, are you?

I know that as a human, we die. We can die in many different ways. You could die trying to save people from a burning building. You could die in bed choosing a lethal injection. Doesn't really matter to the person, they are both dead. It does matter to the people around them. A person who choses to die so his family does not have to watch them suffer or have to pay his bills is not a coward. Life is not pain. There are many other sensations as well.

Shame on you for looking at the world so black and white. You judge yet you know nothing and are nothing. Do not presume that your path should be the same that everyone should follow.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[riverat1]

The decision to remove Terri Schiavo's feeding tube was made by her husband. The courts merely affirmed his right to make that decision. If I'm ever in a state like she was I hope the discontinue life support for me as well. In what way is the state trying to get in on your end of life decisions?

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Anarchduke]

I don't know about that, I understand it completely. It is a very old solution to a debilitative disease. A Roman man would be expected to fall on his sword, rather than drain the life out of his family while they worry and care for him as he fades away into darkness.

To quote Hunter S Thompson's famous suicide note

"Football Season Is Over"

"No More Games. No More Bombs. No More Walking. No More Fun. No More Swimming. 67. That is 17 years past 50. 17 more than I needed or wanted. Boring. I am always bitchy. No Fun â" for anybody. 67. You are getting Greedy. Act your old age. Relax â" This won't hurt."

In the end, the only thing a man has is his own life. Shouldn't he have the right to choose the way he leaves it?

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[markov_chain]

For all we know he is on some uncharted Caribbean island sipping pina coladas, sitting on a pile of off-shore cash he didn't want the IRS to find :D

An executive's heaven one way or another, I guess.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[WaywardGeek]

I'll take that advice, though I hope I never need it. I'm not only non-suicidal, I've got kids and a wife depending on me, not to mention the dog. But, cancer is a bitch, and it runs strong in my family. If I ever feel like I need to end life, I'll definitely try and find this very entertaining thread! And, I'll try and be polite about it to my family and anyone who would have to clean me up, without creating any danger for anyone else.

Bummer, though. I've always wanted to try hang-gliding. Jumping off that huge cliff in Golden Colorado without any hang-gliding training sounds fun. Then there's the trick of tying balloons to a lounge chair and flying away with nothing but a BB-gun. Everyone else gets all the fun.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[soconn]

I'm guessing you haven't sat in a room and watched somebody painfully scream and cry their way to their end. My church going, Irish catholic grandmother begged my mother to kill her in her last days as the cancer ate her alive, I sat in a hospital room for a week with my Father in law and his family after he decided to stop treatment to avoid a more painful drawn out end. Modern medicine can keep you going much longer than nature ever intended, where do you draw the line?, how long do you fight a losing battle? Personally, I don't see an end full of agony, that smells of bleach and includes being hooked up to machines to replace failed pieces of my body as what God intended, I chose not to judge anyone who makes these terrible calls.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[WaywardGeek]

Sorry to hear about your loss. I had a step-brother who passed away a couple years ago, and my step-mother is still terribly broken up about it. I can't think of anything harder in life than losing a child.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[glwtta]

And what did they lose out to? The fact that there's more money to be made in keeping them alive in a private prison than there is to just get it over with.

This does not seem convincing - from what I can gather, about 4% of inmates in the US are currently in private prisons, and even that is a relatively recent development. The other 96% cost money and generate no profit.

This may be terribly naive of me, but you do have to take into account a certain "civilizing" effect over the last few centuries - people are less inclined to be personally responsible for condemning others to death on scant evidence.

And even if it's not just the money interests, something changed in the population in a very rapid manner to go from "kill the criminals and let God deal with them" to "they have to live!"

Not true either. Plenty of people still feel as above, it's our damn attention to human rights, at the state level, that's changed.

My main problem with saying that the current attitudes towards euthanasia are caused by the medical industry is that said industry has existed in its current form for (maybe) a century, and the attitudes towards suicide/euthanasia have not changed since, well, recorded history.

It's a weird ante hoc ergo propter hoc argument which makes no sense.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[WaywardGeek]

I've talked to a guy who has to deal with motorcycle deaths on Skyline. Apparently, they happen all the time. Sometimes they helicopter the guy out if he's still alive. The guy told me they call that an "E-ticket ride". The people who live up there hate the morons who risk death on their road.

So, I agree, that would be dangerous to others, and impolite to the guys who have to clean up the mess.

Here's another dumb idea for how to off oneself: Try walking portions of the John Muir Trail. There are many sections where you have to try pretty hard not to fall over huge cliffs into a valley where your body would never be found. Just don't tell any authorities where you're going, so no one has to come looking, and leave an explanation for your family.

Another dumb idea if you're a hunter: bear hunting with a knife, out in a state park where your body wont be found. Of course, that's really mean to the bear, since you probably would only wound it. But, after all the packs of food they've stolen from me over the years while hiking, I could see trying to get some pay-back.

I guess I've thought a bit more about how to die than most people. My ex-wife use to try and kill herself now and then, slashing wrists, hanging herself, popping a whole bottle of sleeping pills, and that sort of thing. She was semi-mental, and had some valid reasons to want to die. Now why I married a semi-mental girl in the first place... you'd think people here on slashdot would have more brains...

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[tyrus568]

The man was not afraid of this absolute.

That, is bravery.

If he wasn't afraid of it and did it, that's not bravery.

It's being afraid of something but doing it anyway that represents true courage.

He did what he thought was the proper thing to do for him in his position. As to his feelings on death, unless words from the man himself are forthcoming I wouldn't judge him.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Quothz]

Yes it does. epi dhlhsei de kai adikihi eirxein: "abstain from doing harm".

Yes; I acknowledged my error about an hour ahead of your post. I was using a different translation.

Some still do. Most medical schools administer some form of oath, and many use the Hippocratic version.

In 1993, at least in Canada and the US, one medical school administered the original Oath. Sixty-eight used oaths based at least loosely on the original, but with various provisions. For example, only 14% of the oaths given in '93 included prohibition against euthanasia. Check out "The Use of the Hippocratic Oath: A Review of 20th Century Practice and a Content Analysis of Oaths Administered in Medical Schools in the U.S. and Canada in 1993." by Robert D. Orr, M.D. and Norman Pang, M.D., in The Journal of Clinical Ethics 8. Today, no school in North America administers the original Oath; the Declaration of Geneva is the most common substitute.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Orange Crush]

Hmmmm . . . but wouldn't that just encourage the bear to attack more humans?

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[underworld]

"I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone."

Hrmm...

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[socceroos]

It most definitely isn't bravery.

Instead of "squaring his shoulders", "standing tall" and facing the battle of ill health and the other problems in his life, he decided to take the easy way out and commit suicide. It can only be defined as cowardly.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Tomfrh]

having to 'stick it out' is only a by-product of religion
So what about our other moral ideas? Do you believe they are mere by-products of religion?

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[SanityInAnarchy]

that doesn't make them "lesser".

I agree, and you'll notice, that is what I've been saying this whole thread.

Look at my original post. It was replying to someone who claimed this was "courage". I spun it as cowardice. Then I clarified -- I don't think I can say it's either one, and I don't think less of him, but I don't like glorifying it.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[SanityInAnarchy]

The "certain" perspectives you talk about are from somebody that is illogical and selfish.

No more so than the perspective of "That is bravery."

Please read my entire comment before replying.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[SanityInAnarchy]

I think if they saw how people with terminal diseases have their lives dragged on by medical treatments wouldn't have wrote that you go to hell for suicide.

That's beside the point.

The point wasn't whether or not you go to hell for suicide.

The point was, you have absolutely no idea what happens after death. For all you know, maybe you do go to hell for suicide. Or maybe you go to hell for masturbating. Or maybe everyone just goes to hell.

Or maybe heaven is really a horrible place, after all.

Starting to make sense?

Now, I would guess that there is no afterlife. That you simply go to sleep and don't wake up -- that you cease to exist. But we don't really know, and if there is, we don't know what it's like.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[SanityInAnarchy]

Like, what's the point of going on? Do you have something to live for?

I would say, if you can't find something to live for, you lack imagination.

Just do whatever you feel like.

I agree.

My point wasn't to judge, it was to be a counterpoint to someone claiming it was "bravery".

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Lunzo]

I think it's a little unfair the parent post got modded as Troll. Euthanasia is sometimes called "assisted suicide" i.e. there is someone else involved. There have been cases in Australia where the person/people assisting have been tried with manslaughter. I can think of two recent, famous examples, which provide strong arguments against euthanasia:

1. An elderly woman who was diagnosed with terminal cancer opted for euthanasia very early on, before her health started deteriorating. The autopsy revealed that the cancer diagnosis was a false positive.
2. An elderly person with mental illnesses was coerced by family members into euthanasia. These family members were tried and sentenced with manslaughter.

Back to the story at hand, I think Egan has a history of running away from problems if you RTFA, although he also did great things and had an interesting and varied career. He was honourably discharged from military service for being AWOL. He left EMC at the height of the .com bust. He left his post as ambassador after 15 months, with complaints it was too difficult adjusting to slow paced, diplomatic protocols after a life in business. It's no surprise to me that he chose to run from the final challenge in his life.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[martin-boundary]

Why not? Worse things have happened.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Nefarious Wheel]

It was actually from a later book, in response to a question from the recently deceased King Verence of Lancre. ..."Where's the justice in that?". Only the very best humourists, the very best, are quite that insightfully philosophical. I've long suspected Terry Pratchett of being secretly in the pay of the Philosopher's Union.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[lysergic.acid]

Wow. OK, all I wrote was that it would be better to remember a person's life than to focus on their death. If that's arguing semantics, then I guess I'm guilty as charged.

I was not ripping on the OP, as I don't believe in getting into flame wars or getting as worked up as you seem to be about this over a mere forum post. I interpreted the OP's comment a certain way, and expressed my disagreement with what it seemed to imply to me. He responded to my comment and clarified what he meant, and expressed that we were indeed in agreement. I have no quarrels with him personally, and I'd assume he bears no grudge against me. Why this has you so riled up is beyond me.

Also, you do realize that human (natural) language is not constructed the same way as formal semantics. It's pretty silly to treat it as such. Language is inherently imprecise and full of implied meanings and connotations. Let me just leave you with this statement as an example to think over:

I am not an idiot because I'm not brkello.

otherwise written as:

If I'm not brkello, I'm not an idiot.

If P then Q .

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[HornWumpus]

Semi-mental girls are generally very hot in bed. Crazier the better, but you don't marry them.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[vaporland]

why so serious?

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[JWSmythe]

In the words of a famous man,

    "You gotta know when to hold 'em,
      know when to fold 'em.
      Know when to walk away,
      Know when to run..."

    Your points against euthanasia are valid. There are times when they aren't valid. Oh shit, I'm going to die too (eventually), but off-ing myself today isn't the prudent choice. Diagnosed terminally ill, and showing very painful symptoms of it are a completely different story. If you know you've been very sick, in a lot of pain, and you've been diagnosed with not long to live, which will be more painful than any person should have to live through is a very different story.

    It's legal and "humane" to do it to pets. Let me share an example. A friend had a pet who was dying. It was sick for several years, and diagnosed as terminally ill. It had lost a lot of weight (like 50% of it's healthy weight), was screaming, convulsing, and unresponsive. The screaming was like nothing I had ever heard, and completely uncharacteristic for this type of animal. It was clearly going to continue in unbearable pain. We sat down and made the decision of what to do. It wasn't my pet, so I was able to be less emotional about it, but my friend was heartbroken. She spoon fed this pet for the last few years, because it was unable (or unwilling) to eat on it's own. We went to the animal hospital who confirmed our opinion. They put it to sleep while she held it. We put it out of it's misery, where we could have let it live its last hours or possibly days in the worst pain possible.

    Likewise, when I was a kid, I had an old dog. He was clearly dying. It hurt for him to move, but he managed to do ok going from a chair we had put outside for him, to lay in the sun, and come back. That was his routine for a few years. One day, he was laying in the yard sunning himself normally. A little while later, we came back and he was laying in the same spot, dead.

    An uncle of mine passed the same way. He knew he was very ill. He wasn't in so much pain that he couldn't continue. One day, he was sitting, watching TV, and passed away peacefully. My aunt was with him the whole time. As soon as she knew what was happening (because he indicated so) she called the paramedics. They arrived in less than 5 minutes, and he was gone.

    People say that pets are lesser creatures, but I completely disagree. After my father died, we had three older pets die within a month. I believe they were upset by his passing, and had simply given up the will to live. I've heard of the same happening with elderly people. When an old person loses a spouse, sometimes they follow shortly after from the grief.

    I don't like death. I swore quite a while ago that I wouldn't even be attending my own funeral. Unfortunately, it is a fact of life, and we will all have to deal with it eventually. How we play the hand is our own choice.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Capsaicin]

In the end, the only thing a man has is his own life. Shouldn't he have the right to choose the way he leaves it?

Hear hear!

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[Geotopia]

The key to this kind of humor is to use words different from the pun so that the reader has to think about it. Like follows:

"Violet, I recall, was a very young chinese girl, but the article says he died in Boston..."

Of course the reader right below took so long to get it, one wonders if the joke would get lost. Let's try it again:

"He died of euthanasia, but he was an old man in Boston"
"Get it, died of old-age-in-Boston, not youth-in-asia!?"
"Euthanasia, that's where you take your own life rather than suffer with illness!"
"No, it's not just old people that can chose to go that way."
"Yes, I know, in this case it just HAPPENED to be an old guy, but I guess young people can do it too, if they were really sick and were going to die anyway."
"True, it wouldn't be as ironic if it was a young person."
"Yes, it would be very sad, but that's not the point... that's not why it's funny."
"No, I don't think an old guy taking his life or otherwise dying is funny, it's a play on words."

Okay, I'm not just talking to myself, I'm carrying on a dialog between myself and myself and one of me doesn't get the joke. Surely, I've got better things to do.

"No, I said SURELY, not Shirley and no she's not related to Violet."
"Violet, the young Chinese g... Oh, never mind!"

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[uninformedLuddite]

How about taking an overdose of some very fun drug while enjoying the company of a well-paid lady friend?

When you have great drugs the company doesn't matter at all. Nothing's better than having in-depth conversations with extremely witty and intelligent people that are all just a figment of your imagination.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[uninformedLuddite]

I don't want to dreg up past horrors for you so if you chose not to respond that's fine. Your post makes it appear that the morphine overdose was a horrible way to die. If that was the case then I don't understand. All the morphine related deaths I have seen have been peaceful endings.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[uninformedLuddite]

My wife's mother was diagnosed with breast cancer and 'beat it'. Several years later it had metastatised(sp) and became very bad brain cancer. She had absolutely no sickness from the chemotherapy. She would go out to lunch with friends after the radio/chemo. The night she died she had been in a coma for over a day and my wife was standing beside the bed waiting for her to go.
She woke up(the doctors said this was impossible as she was very heavily medicated at the time), was completely lucid ,hugged Sarah, told her how much she loved her, and some other stuff, went back into her coma, and a couple of hours later she died. She only regained consciousness for a few minutes and although I don't believe in miracles this was damned close.
I still get wet eyed when i think about this.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[uninformedLuddite]

yeah, if he had realized that control was an illusion, if he had decided instead that it was not up to him to decide when it would end, just as it was not his decision to begin, to face debilitation and pain... he would have undone all he had done and we'd see him as a coward.

Can you advise as to who's decision it might be? Are you a twit?

suicide is for cowards (unless in protest).

What sort of protests are we talking about here. Would I be brave if I lopped my head off with a chainsaw at the next anti-strip mining protest?

there is no honor in ending your life.

May the souls of a thousand cranky Samurai attach themselves to your belly button

Either you have the fortitude to see it through to the very end, or you don't. He didn't. Suicide doesn't diminish what he did while alive, however, it does not make him brave.

You are an awful person and I sincerely hope that you get some hideously painful illness that forces you to see what a lying, selfish piece of human excrement you are.

Have you considered a career in politics?

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[uninformedLuddite]

Yes, I'm quite familiar with inverses relations

Are you absolutely sure?

, contrapositives, converse, etc., etc. And it really depends on the propositions and how the statement is constructed.

For example, the statement: "All triangles are 3-sided." can be broken down as: If (P)a shape has 3 sides then (Q)it is a triangle.

I checked Google and you are absolutely correct

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[uninformedLuddite]

Those who take their own life aren't brave... that's all I'm saying. They should be held to the same standard as someone who runs a race, doesn't like how its going, and quits. Sure, personal choice. But the runner that makes it to the end, even if they are dead last, endears far greater respect.

I will enjoy that respect as my poor crying wife wipes the spittle from my chin, as she realises that she has to change my nappy again(for the eleventh time that day) because it's full of bright orange shit, and instead of being thanked for her long suffering efforts I instead call her a "worthless fucking whore" because tumours in my head have changed me into an unrecognisable, pain-filled, hateful bastard. I will make sure in my will that I direct her to your posts on the subject so she can understand just how noble and worthy of respect I still am.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[uninformedLuddite]

Hey, its my metaphor, and you've screwed it up. The "race" in the metaphor is, of course, life. But the "finish line" is not just any death, but natural death, i.e. dying of natural causes.

So just how is Jesus today?

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[FuckingNickName]

Myth.

Arrival at the extermination camps almost always meant extermination within a few hours. A few were selected for camp maintenance duties, but they were treated fairly poorly and would starve to weakness after a few months at most. In some camps, whole batches of Sonderkommando would be eliminated at once at the first job of the new batch was to bury the previous. The Nazis didn't want witnesses hanging around for too long!

In the work/internment camps, it'd depend a lot on who you were. A British POW would have a far greater chance of staying alive than one in a Jap camp. A Jew would be given worse rations and accommodation and be worked to death, typically over a few weeks/months. IOW, when they got too weak mentally and/or physically that work becomes impossible or unbearable, they'd be killed anyway, whether they'd choose euthanasia or not. To suicide all you'd have to do is willingly stop work or otherwise give attitude to your captors.

So, yes, who was brave here? The guys who chose not to cooperate and would face more immediate death, or the guys who chose to support the Nazi war effort to spare them at least a few weeks/months - especially those in the Sonderkommando who directly worked the machinery of the death camps?

(Or, perhaps the question is loaded.)

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[frederickroyceperez]

Lauren Bacall relates that the last night she spent with her husband , that his most telling phrase was

"I hope I never spend another night like that"

My mother who said very little made a comment

"I just want to die"

Unfortunately , my poor mother passed only after enduring two more days of silent agony

I suspect it is , for those of us who love a suffering person , easier to rationalise a purpose despite the overwhelming simplicity of the moment .
The pity will soon be ours , handed to us by our own creative rationale .

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[bruceslog]

I understand where you're coming from, but the other replies to your ideas are right.
Someone is going to have to clean up the mess. And someone is going to have to try to save your life.

Besides, if I tried one of your ideas, knowing my luck, I'd live through it, and be in that much more pain. As well as being crippled and requiring somebody to have to care for me.

I'll have to ponder this more, and find something that I'd love to do, wouldn't require someone to clean up the mess or try to save me, and would surely have the desired effect.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[smithmc]

That, or he fears pain more than death. Most people fear pain, a lot.

From a certain perspective, that is cowardice.

From a certain perspective, that is stupidity.

I don't think we can really judge one way or the other, though.

Sure sounds like you just did.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[owlstead]

Well, I suppose that's true, but normally treatment involves quite a few scans and blood samples to see how many cancer cells are in the blood. After a few of those, it is at least sure that you have cancer. The photos sometimes leave something to be desired for cancer in its initial stages, but for advanced long cancer I don't think that there is normally any doubt. And don't forget this was a person with a huge amount of money. He will have probably had a second and third opinion anyway.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[owlstead]

No no, the morphine death was a relief. Trust me, I won't sue the doctor for that. It just came a few weeks too late. And at that time it could not be a peaceful ending anymore. Fortunately my mother did not have to go through that.

As for the past horrors; yes, they are horrors. On the other hand I can only hope I get as much out of life as they did. So all in all I can live with the last few years - they certainly had many good moments in them as well. I never was as close to my parents as an adult as then.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[SanityInAnarchy]

Sure sounds like you just did.

I thought "from a certain perspective" would've been enough to make my point clear.

GP claims it was bravery. I'm putting for the claim that it's cowardice, not because that's what I believe, but to show that it's not that simple.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[ppanon]

I know you used to shit your pants twice a day. For years.

Speak for yourself. My son is 19 months old and, if we're at home instead of travelling around (and even in the latter case sometimes), he'll signal to us that he needs to use the potty to take a dump. It's been like that for a few months already. He's a little less reliable when it comes to pee, but we still spend significantly less than average on diapers. Outside of North America, it's actually pretty common for babies to be potty trained before their second year.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[ppanon]

For that matter, the "natural" death of a neolithic caveman with Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, cancer, or any number of other ailments, would probably be either by starvation from an inability to hunt/farm, or by succumbing to the attack of a predator which they could no longer defend themselves against.

Re:"Committed Suicide?"

[adolf]

I'll tell you what: Go ahead and give it a shot. If you've got enough time to Tweet about it on Twitter after impact, you win.

Otherwise, it's painless.

Deal?

The EASY way out!

[ZackSchil]

What a coward! He should have faced his imminent slow and painful death like a man: by watching his dignity slowly fade away as he soils his bed and sobs uncontrollably about a life ill spent.

Wait, his life wasn't ill spent, so he realized that everything I just typed is bullshit. Society's attitude towards suicide is fucked up.

Rest in peace.

Re:The EASY way out!

[paazin]

Yeah this guy was a truly noble American:

He was involved in a tax shelter case in 2006. The Irish Times reported he had invested $62m in a scheme set up by KPMG partners.

What's with our obsession to praise and reward those who ultimately just take advantage of us?

Re:The EASY way out!

[e2d2]

That attitude stems from the people left behind. Maybe he prepared them, but they still live on and most people don't take a suicide of a loved one well. Maybe one day I'll face the same decision, but I doubt I'd kill myself because it would destroy my loved ones. I know what it's like to see a loved one perish in the hospital and I also currently have to assist in the care of my grandfather who's brain checked out long ago. It's not "dignified" but it is natural. Not all of life is pretty. Some of it is downright painful. That's the "gift" of self awareness.

Re:The EASY way out!

[X0563511]

There's two (well, more than that, really) sides to the suicide coin.

1. You have men like this. Men who have seen that which they have wrought, and found a life well spent. Rather than wither away and die as you say, these people deserve an 'easy out.'

2. Then, you have the "oh woe is me" crowd, where suicide is the cowards way out - because it's easier to kill themself than deal with their problems - consequences to everyone else be damned. A selfish, cowardice-ridden exit.

3. Also, you have those who genuinly have something wrong with their mind that pushes them to it. You can't blame someone for something external pushing it down on you like that.

4. Finally, unless there are more I'm too tired to think of, you have those that go for a good cause. The good soldier diving on a grenade. Sacrificing one's self for the good of many, etc - the true altruistic finale.

I think the problem is that most people hear 'suicide' and think of group #2 above, to the exclusion of all else. If only the world was that defined into black in white.

Re:The EASY way out!

[paazin]

Totally - though please also allow me, who doesn't have hordes of tax-lawyers at my beck and call, to also prevent the gov't getting its grubby hands on my hard-earned tax money.

Re:The EASY way out!

[rjh]

"It is every American's Constitutional right to avoid paying taxes to the maximum extent permissible by law." -- Judge David R. Hansen, Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals

There's nothing wrong or immoral with reducing your tax bill. It's only wrong to do it in violation of the law. The IRS claims he engaged in a legal fiction to dodge taxes illegally. He claims he engaged in a legal fiction to dodge taxes legally. We decide who's right or wrong in the courts: we don't leap to judgment on Slashdot. (I know, I know, I must be new here. Check the UID, kids, I'm not.)

If the IRS is right, then yes, his actions were unjust. If he's right, then more power to him.

If you believe it's virtuous to pay more taxes than you absolutely have to, I'm sure the IRS wouldn't mind if you threw an extra couple of hundred on your check come April 15. Otherwise, let's give the dead the benefit of the doubt, and not declare him to have been taking advantage of us.

Re:The EASY way out!

[Anonymous Coward]

No. Not to be cruel, but it's _not_ natural. If this were in some earlier time frame, or a less "technologically advanced" environment, your relative would've been consumed by some other predator by now. It's _un_natural to develop the technology to prolong a life beyond its natural usefulness; ie. into a vegetative state. We are completely skull-fucking the "natural circle of life."

If this post comes across as unnecessarily cruel, forgive me: I'm drunk on Bacardi 151, right now, and probably shouldn't post. At least I have the wits to select "post anonymously"...

Re:The EASY way out!

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Do you think that #2 actually represents more than a trivial percentage of the suicide population(rather than being composed largely of a public misperception of the noisier members of #3?)

Given the strength of both instinctive and cultural revulsions toward death, and the overwhelmingly numerous examples of people willing to endure pretty miserable conditions and near-nil hope of improvement; I'd say that it takes a very special kind of coward to prefer death, self inflicted, to dealing with other problems. Someone who has extremely attenuated fear of death, or severely exaggerated fear of other problems, would seem to fall into #3.

Re:The EASY way out!

[MarkRose]

The first step is to run your own business where the taxes are lower. Everyone plays the same game. Take the best position. It's never easy in the beginning though, partially for the taxation reason. I'm a fan of eliminating income tax all together. It makes zero sense to punish productive behavior.

Re:The EASY way out!

[MBGMorden]

It depends. Truthfully I think there is no real distinction between #1 and #2 in your post. Reality is we all die eventually, so everyone who commits suicide is speeding up the inevitable, but in both #1 and #2 both people have problems. Death will get both eventually so saying "I'm going to die anyways" doesn't do much. Why do some people's problems (cancer) become a good enough reason to kill one's self whereas other people's problems (a lost job for example) not get the same consideration, and they get branded a "coward" for taking that same "easy out"?

I could make the same argument - why should I have to subject myself to homelessness and digging through garbage hoping for my next meal rather than going out with dignity?

Whether or not one supports suicide or not really isn't important to me, but IMHO it comes down to a Mr Miyagi situation: "Walk left side - fine; walk right side - fine; walk middle ". Either suicide is a valid say of dealing with personal problems or it's not - judging which problems are good enough to kill yourself over and which ones aren't just gets way too subjective.

Re:The EASY way out!

[Therefore I am]

Bacardi 151 is a form of suicide. Drink it neat for a few weeks and then kiss parts of your throat bye bye.

Re:The EASY way out!

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

The interesting questions start to come up when the fact that the law is written and re-written enters the picture. If law were handed down, without further alteration, this would be unproblematic; but it isn't.

Given a modest space of time, and sufficient resources, it is possible(indeed common) to change what "the maximum extent allowed by law" is, either across the board or selectively. What then?

Re:The EASY way out!

[catmistake]

but it's _not_ natural.

You are correct, not natural. But it _is_ civilized. Funny how civilization is so underated here on /. idk why, but it always seems to get a bad rap.

Re:The EASY way out!

[Citizen of Earth]

What's with our obsession to praise and reward those who ultimately just take advantage of us?

Far better the world would be if he had been a whiny no-op like yourself, never took any risks, never produced anything worthwhile, never created thousands of jobs, never paid millions in taxes.

Re:The EASY way out!

[adolf]

Hey, kid: Check the UID. You're still young.

Nonetheless, I agree with you. Paying minimum legal tax, whatever hoops one must jump through, is fine. And if it, for whatever reason, should not be fine, then the laws simply need updating to more clearly define that it's not OK.

End of story. Every American (who is not a fool) pays the minimum possible assessment to the IRS that they can perceive -- even if it involves lies.

(Hey, kids!: Quick poll. Who among you were completely honest on your IRS Form 1040 last year? Anyone?)

Re:The EASY way out!

[Splab]

Or you could just have said de mortuis nil nisi bonum dicendum est (Let nothing be said of the dead but what is good).

Re:The EASY way out!

[Hurricane78]

They're just jealous because they wouldn't have the balls to take the "easy" way, and let others control their entire life, living in a walking daze.

Seriously: How many people's will leave any trace of their existence that survives more than two or three generations?

And after that? They could as well never had existed.

(P.S.: I'm a bit insecure about my English today, so sorry for the possibly weird sentences.)

Re:The EASY way out!

[Valdrax]

(Hey, kids!: Quick poll. Who among you were completely honest on your IRS Form 1040 last year? Anyone?)

To the best of my knowledge, I was. Not only do I genuinely believe that you're a parasite if you try to take advantage of government services while paying as little as possible for them, but I'm not a fan of lying to save/make a buck (aka fraud), and I'm not a big enough gambler to think that a few bucks here and there is worth up to $100,000 and 5 years in prison.

Re:The EASY way out!

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

If the IRS is right, then yes, his actions were unjust. If he's right, then more power to him.

On the other hand, practically nobody thinks they are "the bad guy" even mass murders and evil despots - they've always got a rationalization for why their actions are OK.

Re:The EASY way out!

[Armadni General]

Joblessness is a state that can be altered for the better, with comparitive ease.

But if you have a terminal illness and are on, or inching closer and closer to, your death bed...guess what? There is no chance of you getting any better; in fact, it's all downhill from here on out. Why force other people to prolong their suffering? Why not let them tie up their loose ends and then off themselves, if they so desire, before they turn into half-conscious, drooling burdens?

It's plenty natural to end something destined for failure, before it ends itself. Did you ever drop a class in school/college? Did you ever re-load your game from the last save point because you knew your character was about to die? Ever cancel a project because you knew it was going to run over budget?

Obviously none of these examples are as heavyweight as the question of euthanasia but they demonstrate a similar idea: if the end result is inevitable, why not just take a shortcut that involves less pain, less suffering, less stress, less waste?

This post basically reflects my idea that suicide should be permissible for patients with terminal illnesses and no hope for survival (or rather, no hope for any sustainable quality of life). Euthanasia for people who could survive or show improvement, is a much grayer area to me though.

Re:The EASY way out!

[adolf]

and I'm not a big enough gambler to think that a few bucks here and there is worth up to $100,000 and 5 years in prison.

Ever download an MP3 without paying for it? Ever get a copy of an album on tape from a friend?

Do you have any illegitimate movies in your library?

Re:The EASY way out!

[Seumas]

Life itself is an imminently slow and painful death and the closer you get to the other end either chronologically or medically, the more foul the risk/reward becomes. Unbearable pain against possible odds with decades ahead of you can easily be worth it while intolerable suffering with little chance of improvement and only a few years ahead as a reward seems like a reasonable point to make such a decision. The fear that death is painful is what clearly keeps a lot of less desperate people from taking their own lives -- but I can quite imagine that there is a threshold where the pain of killing yourself can not possibly be as great as that you grit against every moment of your existence.

It sucks, because it means giving up. Society is afraid of admitting that at times no amount of hope or luck will change things and no matter our human progress and achievements, there are adversaries against we must fold.

Irrational hopelessness leading to suicide is a sickness that should be treated. We shouldn't lump completely rational hopelessness into that same category. It sucks to say "goodbye", but at least it was his choice to make when it was enough. It's only terribly unfortunate that society forced him into doing this painfully and alone, too.

Re:The EASY way out!

[binary paladin]

I can't think of a situation where I would ever side with the IRS. Even if "the law" was on their side. There's just a point where you have to say, "You know what? Fuck you guys."

Re:The EASY way out!

[Kadin2048]

So you were careful, then, to total up all of your out-of-state and Internet purchases, and submit the correct amount of Use Tax for your state of residence? Because anything less is, technically, fraud, and you've made it quite clear what you think of people who cheat the system.

Unless you are from one of the five no-sales-tax states, if you purchased anything from an Internet retailer who didn't charge sales tax, and you didn't pay the required tax voluntarily, then you, sir, are a tax cheat.

Re:The EASY way out!

[Kadin2048]

Well, assuming you are in a society where you can get another job, that's why it's #2 and not #1. It's not an irreversible state.

However, hypothetically, I guess I can imagine a society where a job loss really wouldn't be reversible. There are probably some historical examples. Some situation where, even though you're physically fine, you're essentially doomed for some social reason. In that particular, admittedly contrived, situation, I think it would be more like #1 and not #2. Of course, the long-term solution in that situation would be to try and fix society so that people don't get trapped like that, just like the long-term solution to people killing themselves because they have untreatable cancer ought to be to improve cancer treatment, but that doesn't mean that someone who chooses to kill themselves should be branded a coward, if their situation really was unwinnable and likely to bring them and others ignominy for the rest of their lives. We should abhor the social systems that produce such outcomes but the suicides themselves could be reasonable as individual decisions, even if the system isn't.

It's a question of circumstance which doesn't lend itself to black-and-white "always good" or "always wrong" judgment. Demanding that it either always be a valid or invalid choice for all "personal problems" is convenient, but the world is not that simple.

Re:The EASY way out!

[Reservoir Penguin]

You don't understand what dignity is. Stephen Hawking is completely dependant on outsiders for every bodily function and probably frequently soils his diper. However he doesn't strike me as a man with no dignity.

Re:The EASY way out!

[a_n_d_e_r_s]

There is a big difference if you still have your brain functions intakt or if they rapidly decay so you no longer are yourself but just a body.

Re:The EASY way out!

[rjh]

So, let me get this straight. The guy builds up a large data-center firm from nothing... provides jobs for literally thousands of people... through those jobs, provides healthcare for literally thousands of families... by growing his firm into the multibillion-dollar range, he provides the government with literally hundreds of millions of dollars each year in tax revenue...

... and you're going to sit there being all high and mighty, sitting in moral judgment over him despite the fact you don't know him from Adam?

You say, "it seems that as some people get wealthier and wealthier," without showing that he's one of these people. It's guilt by association: because he was wealthy and tried to reduce his tax burden, therefore he's just like your stereotype of greedy, narcissistic, illegal immigrant-hiring, empathy-lacking, fat cats.

The filmmaker Jean-Luc Godard once said that if anyone wanted to criticize his movies, they should do so by making their own movie. It's a good rule. If you want to criticize the behavior of a successful businessman who as far as we know has never broken the law, you should start by becoming a successful businessman who has never broken the law. Let your own life serve as a criticism of others.

Re:The EASY way out!

[HBI]

Marxist theory is debunked on a daily basis.

Next.

Re:The EASY way out!

[Shatrat]

Avoiding taxes is about the most American thing you can do.
My country was founded on it.

Some people view paying taxes as some kind of holy religious tithing which makes them a better person.
Buses were invented just so that those people could walk in front of them.

Re:The EASY way out!

[Lord Ender]

Perhaps he was trying to save his money from Uncle Sam so that he could use it for charity rather than for war? Tax dodging can be quite ethical.

Re:The EASY way out!

[russotto]

(Hey, kids!: Quick poll. Who among you were completely honest on your IRS Form 1040 last year? Anyone?)

I was. Not having any income the IRS wouldn't find out about from other sources sort of encourages honesty...

Re:The EASY way out!

[russotto]

The filmmaker Jean-Luc Godard once said that if anyone wanted to criticize his movies, they should do so by making their own movie. It's a good rule.

It's a stupid rule, intended to deflect criticism. If I write some software that's slow, produces wrong results, and crashes all the time, it doesn't take another programmer to criticize it. Nor (obligatory car analogy) does it take a carmaker to criticize a Yugo.

Re:The EASY way out!

[Kenneth Stephen]

Quit bragging about uids

Re:The EASY way out!

[mlund]

There's two (well, more than that, really) sides to the suicide coin.

1. You have men like this. Men who have seen that which they have wrought, and found a life well spent. Rather than wither away and die as you say, these people deserve an 'easy out.'

It think people seriously overlook the right to simply refuse futile and degrading extraordinary methods to preserve life beyond its natural conclusion. We have a lot of options for pain management that provide a useful alternative to taking a shotgun to one's face.

3. Also, you have those who genuinly have something wrong with their mind that pushes them to it. You can't blame someone for something external pushing it down on you like that.

Not just something wrong with their minds - there are people who have something wrong with their surrounding culture. There are many sad situations where "something external" is a social prerogative that condemns the disabled as being burdensome and unworthy of life.

4. Finally, unless there are more I'm too tired to think of, you have those that go for a good cause. The good soldier diving on a grenade. Sacrificing one's self for the good of many, etc - the true altruistic finale.

That doesn't qualify as suicide. That's an altruistic act of heroism that happens to have the undesired outcome of dying. Likewise, killing in self-defense is not murder. It is an act to preserve one's own life from an aggressor with the otherwise unwanted outcome of killing.

Re:The EASY way out!

[maitas]

Please explain.

For what I understand, it is better to tax wealth than income. In doing so people that owns money will have to have it always working in order to aviod seen it eroded by taxes.

Re:The EASY way out!

[Valdrax]

Unless you are from one of the five no-sales-tax states, if you purchased anything from an Internet retailer who didn't charge sales tax, and you didn't pay the required tax voluntarily, then you, sir, are a tax cheat.

Another reason it's nice to live in Oregon.

Also, in case you didn't read the link (which I'm sure you didn't), you have to willfully attempt to evade taxes by illegal means.

EMO EGAN ENDED

[Anonymous Coward]

EFUNERAL

OK, I'm a sicko, I admit it

[$RANDOMLUSER]

I'm getting a HUGE LOL from the

Solaris budget concerns?
You have options!

Advert on the El Reg page announcing "EMC co-founder kills himself".

Re:OK, I'm a sicko, I admit it

[Narcocide]

haha

EMC

[Kagura]

I hope you know what EMC stands for, because we're not gonna tell you.

Re:EMC

[jerralb]

I RTFA. It's Egan Marino Corporation after the 2 founders.

Never forget.

[Anonymous Coward]

May his memory live on forever in our... network attached storage devices.

Re:Never forget.

[MarkRose]

And just like that, his life was gone into flash.

Re:Never forget.

[linzeal]

Try Storage Area Networks.

Re:Never forget.

[jerralb]

You, sir, nor MarkRose, have obviously never competently used EMC products.

Re:what does this have to do with science/tech?

[Anonymous Coward]

MAKE IT ABOUT POLITICS! MAKE IT ABOUT POLITICS!

The parasitic life form screamed. It yanked at the pain centers and ticked at the pleasure center.

WHY DON'T YOU MAKE IT ABOUT POLITICS, DARLING?

The right brain felt the rumblings decided to make it about politics for the potential reward. The left brain agreed and began to spin together a narrative. It wasn't cohesive but it's enough for an impulse.

The human considered for a moment. "Oh, wow, a guy killed himself in the UK because he had terminal cancer. What a great segue into a discussion on Obama's healthcare plan and how counseling is good!" he thought.

The right brain relaxed. The left brain got to work. The parasite smiled and kicked at the bundle of nerves a few times. Good.

Did he have to pick such a messy method?

[Anonymous Coward]

A rich fucker like him could've easily gone to one of those clinics in Europe and ended it in a more dignified manner. Imagine the poor bastard who ended up discovering his corpse... What an asshole.

Re:Did he have to pick such a messy method?

[MarkRose]

There comes a time -- in every man's life -- when he must take splatters into his own hands.

Re:Did he have to pick such a messy method?

[GradiusCVK]

Don't know any details beyond what's presented in a few news articles and wikipedia, but he strikes me as a hardass Irish ex-Marine who didn't like to tiptoe around an issue. Not quite the "down a bottle of sleeping pills and a pint of alcohol then die in his sleep" type of guy. When he decided it was time to take care of business, he sure as hell didn't want to die like a pussy. Which is more dignified to you? Does it matter? Go ahead and kill yourself however you want.

Re:Did he have to pick such a messy method?

[LaskoVortex]

Which is more dignified to you? Does it matter? Go ahead and kill yourself however you want.

While taking his own life is his own damn decision in my opinion, there is such a thing as having just a little consideration for your fellow man.

Kids, don't leave a mess. It's just not cool.

Re:Did he have to pick such a messy method?

[OrangeMonkey11]

Going out by ways of a gun is indeed more of a male method, but using a shotgun cannot insured you go out quick though. There have been documented cases of people actually survived or they died an agonizing death because they only managed to blow off a portion of their face. Hand guns work much better when you try to hit the Medulla to end it all

He got on the bus

[plopez]

He used the Hunter S. Thompson method, large caliber to the head approach.

In the same situation I would have gone to a nice comfortable hospice facility in a nice liberal country where they would have kept me comfortable until it was all over. With an army of lawyers to keep family and business associates at bay. He did have the money for it after all.

In case anyone is considering it, firearms are *not* 100% guaranteed. High probability, yes. Guaranteed, no. You can maim yourself, cause blindness, brain damage, have to eat through straws etc. Due to the circumstances we may not know exactly how long it took him to die.

Another bit of advice, make sure you get your living will and medical power of attorney put together. I've been in a situation where we just *barely* got the medical power of attorney signed in time. Without it it would have been an even worse nightmare than it was.

Re:He got on the bus

[MBGMorden]

Firearms to the head in general are not 100% guaranteed (I know a guy who was shot 3 times in the head and survived, albeit with severe brain damage - but it was a .22LR). Sufficiently large shotgun to the head? Pretty much guaranteed (as long as you're not a dolt and stick it under your chin rather than actually at the side of your head). Question is how presentable you want to be at your funeral, for people who care about it. A 12ga isn't going to make you look too pretty. That may sound petty, but it's a thought that crosses many people's minds. IIRC many females who commit suicide or attempt to won't shot themselves, and a primary motivation is often not wanting to mess themselves up for their funeral.

Re:He got on the bus

[OrangeTide]

"...and a primary motivation is often not wanting to mess themselves up for their funeral."

My method of choice is head first into a chipper-shredder. Possibly aim the output over the bay for the fish and crabs to enjoy.

Re:He got on the bus

[cerberusss]

He used the Hunter S. Thompson method, large caliber to the head approach. In case anyone is considering it, firearms are *not* 100% guaranteed. High probability, yes. Guaranteed, no.

As with all things, practice makes perfect.

Re:He got on the bus

[smellsofbikes]

May I suggest an overdose of heroin?

It doesn't hurt. In fact, it'll probably be the best feeling of your whole life.

If it doesn't work, you're not screwed up, missing body parts, having to explain scars, or a drooling idiot. You're completely fine, and have a chance to try again.

And, most importantly, if it does work, your friends and relatives don't spend years asking themselves "could we have stopped it? Was it something we did?" and will instead say "geez, I sure miss that person, never would've thought s/he was a junkie." Which is a far, far nicer thing to do to all the people you care about than a messy suicide.

Re:He got on the bus

[Hurricane78]

Making a parachute drop without the parachute, onto solid concrete, sounds like a pretty sure way for me.

And about financing it: Take a loan. It's not as if they will be able to bully you to pay it back. ;)

Re:He got on the bus

[indiechild]

Yep, firearms suicides is the domain of the male.

It all comes down to the "no-reaction headshot" zone. if I can remember right, it's the part of the brain behind the optic nerve, i.e. roughly between the eyes. People tend to shoot themselves in the side of the head, but I'm not sure how effective that is versus a frontal shot.

Trying to off yourself with a .22 sounds like a recipe for pain. Probably doesn't have the mass and the penetration to do the job.

Re:He got on the bus

[lordofthechia]

"My method of choice is head first into a chipper-shredder."

Jumping feet first into a wood chipper is a *real* man's way to go! None of this nancy panzy head first business.

Re:He got on the bus

[LaskoVortex]

In case anyone is considering it, firearms are *not* 100% guaranteed. High probability, yes. Guaranteed, no. You can maim yourself, cause blindness, brain damage, have to eat through straws etc.

Sounds like a childhood friend of mine. He was struggling with a lot of issues that any adult might consider trivial. Ended up "failing ultimate" and not being very much fun to be around after that. I don't know the guaranteed way to off one's self, but firearms pose the risk of a very humiliating and challenging existence if one doesn't succeed.

Re:He got on the bus

[adolf]

That bit (the part about bleeding to death) is going to feel wholly uncomfortable compared to a nice, healthy heroine overdose.

Re:He got on the bus

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously. I overdose on heroines every day.

Re:He got on the bus

[OrangeTide]

A real man's way to go is dying at 70 from eating too much bacon and smoking 2 packs a day.

Re:He got on the bus

[crazyvas]

"Here lies OrangeTide. He died by getting the crabs after giving head"....

Re:He got on the bus

[plopez]

after having sex with 2 21 year olds

Re:He got on the bus

[plopez]

people have survived drops onto pavement before.

Re:He got on the bus

[zmotula]

I have no experience with amphetamines, but overdosing by drugs is seldom a good feeling. And if it does not work, you do might end up as a drooling idiot, because you might stop breathing long enough to damage your brain. If I were to come off this world by my own hand, I sure would have take care to have clean and peaceful mind (which is not exactly what drugs do).

Re:He got on the bus

[smellsofbikes]

For the record, heroin is an opiate, not a methamphetamine. I've known a lot of heroin junkies and while it sure does destroy people with repeated uses, I've never known anyone or heard of anyone who has gotten brain damage from it despite repeated near-overdoses. In fact, the three ex-junkies I know are all incredibly bright people. One went on to become a pharmacist, oddly (or perhaps not so oddly) enough.

Re:He got on the bus

[OrangeTide]

That sums up my life pretty well.

Suicide Rate in Japan

[reporter]

The suicide rate in Japan is about 51 per 100,000 people. The rate is high but is less than the rate in some European countries. The rate in Lithuania is 92 per 100,000 people.

There is a curious pattern in the suicide rates. The rates among ethnic groups who built the most prosperous, high-quality societies (i. e., Western societies) are the highest in the world. The rate in Japan and Europe is much higher than the rate in, say, Nigeria. Most African nations do have shockingly high death rates, but that is due to murder. Suicide is quite uncommon in Africa.

What Richard Egan did is very Japanese. He concluded that his life would be a burden on his family, his friends, and himself. So, he chose to die by his own sword. He died with honor.

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[CarpetShark]

The [suicide] rates among ethnic groups who built the most prosperous, high-quality societies (i. e., Western societies) are the highest in the world

This should tell you something about the measurement of their "quality".

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[adolf]

Indeed.

*sigh*

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[k-macjapan]

Actually, the suicide rate is much higher than that here in Japan. Due to the fact that a fair amount of deaths are officially classified as something other than suicide.

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[Hognoxious]

It tells me that if you've already collapsed through starvation, wasted away through AIDS or been hacked to death by machete wielding militia it's pretty difficult to top yourself.

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[CarpetShark]

That's a pretty messed up view of the world. You do realise that there are huge countries outside of western civilisation that are very prosperous, advanced, and successful, right? Not to mention having been so for much longer than your nation has probably existed.

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[Toonol]

Yep. We have the luxury of living to an old age and going out on our own terms.

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[Phyrexicaid]

Most African nations do have shockingly high death rates, but that is due to murder. Suicide is quite uncommon in Africa.

That's just because you don't live long enough to kill yourself :P

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[c.r.o.c.o]

I'm pretty sure you're implying China or India, and you have check your facts. Their economies may be large and successful, and some part of the population may be well off even by western standards. However the majority of people, both in China and India live in abject poverty, and their economies are creating ecological disasters of enormous proportions.

Check out this list, http://geography.about.com/cs/worldpopulation/a/mostpopulous.htm where the countries are listed by population size. Except for the western countries, every single other one has at least one major issue, besides poverty for a majority of the people, that precludes it from being a success. For instance Brazil is destroying the rain forest, Pakistan is anything but politically stable and large portions are controlled by the Taleban, Nigeria is destroying the Niger delta for oil, and so on.

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[aminorex]

The vast majority of the people in the U.S. live in abject poverty, and their economy has been the single most massive ecological catastrophe in human history.

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[digitalhermit]

Indeed. Every developing country goes through a period of resource exploitation -- that's how countries develop. The same was true for the US which was once much like South America with vast expanses of forest.

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[siloko]

and their economies are creating ecological disasters of enormous proportions.

Couldn't resist . . . I know ecological disasters don't equate to carbon dioxide emissions but according to the World Bank USA Carbon Emissions are at about 20 tons per capita and in India its at just over 1 ton per capita, so even given the population discrepancy the national output is incomparably larger for the US and thus it is arguable contributing to our current most pressing environmental catastrophe.

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[Acer500]

What Richard Egan did is very Japanese. He concluded that his life would be a burden on his family, his friends, and himself. So, he chose to die by his own sword. He died with honor.

I'm currently facing a similar situation in my family. My grandfather (about 90 years old) is coming off his 2nd major surgery in as many years, and he's quite depressed. I don't think his life is a burden, but I suspect he does think so :( . I'm trying to cheer him up, and I'll probably try to teach him to use a PC and/or videogame (I'm hindered a bit by not having much by way of economic resources - a Wii for example is out of the picture).

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[Attila Dimedici]

If you think there is anyone in the U.S. living in abject poverty, you either don't have any idea what living in the U.S. is like, or you haven't a clue what abject poverty is.

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[Cro Magnon]

Except that in the U.S. "abject poverty" means they had to sell their 4th iPod.

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[owlstead]

As a westerner you've also more time to reflect on live itself. If you are continuously struggling for your life, ending it is not something that comes into your mind easily. You can't be trying to get a living while reflecting upon it too much; it brings too much indecisiveness with it. Also, if you are very religious, you are required to have a goal and not to do sinful things like killing yourself.

So it's not just the length of life that matters. I think most people in Africa that don't die as a child get to an age, say 15, where suicide becomes common.

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[SBrach]

According to wikipedia, the American living in "abject poverty" has "...good condition housing. Most have at least two rooms per person and more space than middle-class people in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens, and other cities throughout Europe. Over three quarters have a car and a third of poor Americans have two cars. Poor Americans have air conditioning, a refrigerator, a stove, a clothes washer and dryer, and a microwave oven, two color televisions, cable or satellite TV reception, a VCR or DVD player, and a stereo.[15][16] Most poor Americans report zero financial or material problems.[15]

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[Anonymusing]

Nice troll there. The average American has an income of $50,233 which places them in the top 0.001% of the richest people in the world.

If that qualifies as "abject poverty" then how the hell do you describe the 99.999% of the world living below it?

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[Duhavid]

I don't know, but I suspect he doesn't need a Wii, he needs you.

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[jameskojiro]

SHIT!!!

I only have one colour TV, I don't even have Air Conditioning, I don't have digital TV, and I don't have a dedicated stereo.

Maybe that is why I am not in debt, I don't waste my money on useless crap the "poor american" people do.

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[compro01]

Yes, because poor people in America are average Americans.

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[Ant P.]

Most African nations do have shockingly high death rates, but that is due to murder.

Actually I've heard that almost every continent in the world has a shockingly high death rate: 100%

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[EvilBudMan]

I really wonder why that is? I think it is because when your mind is in survival mode that you just don't have time to think about it. This rate should in theory go down in the US sooner or later.

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[T.E.D.]

Perhaps in third-world countries they just practice the ghetto technique of suicide-by-cop (or in their case suicide-by-Hutu or whatever) So they still do it, it just doesn't show up in the statistics that way.

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

...Nigeria is destroying the Niger delta for oil, and so on.

I believe you will find that western oil companies are destroying, not only the Delta, but half of Nigeria for oil. Specifically, for oil for you am me. There's very little oil or money going to the Nigerians.

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[Acer500]

I don't know, but I suspect he doesn't need a Wii, he needs you.

Thanks. I hope I'll be enough :)

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[Duhavid]

If you don't find it offensive, I will pray for you and your grandfather.

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[immcintosh]

The massive homeless population of my city begs to differ... Do they have it quite as bad as those in abject poverty in, say, Africa? Probably not, but I'm not harboring any illusions that it doesn't amount to abject poverty.

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[immcintosh]

"Poverty" as it's generally discussed in the United States is a political term that bears more or less no relation whatsoever to the meaning of the term when used in any other context. You may as well be having a totally different discussion.

In other words, this is a problem with language that Wittgenstein shed some light on.

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[david_thornley]

0.001% is a hundred thousandth. 0.001% of the Earth's population is roughly sixty or seventy thousand people. Therefore, by your numbers there can be only sixty or seventy thousand average Americans out of some three hundred million.

Your point about US poverty not being abject is valid, but your numbers are screwy.

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[Myopic]

Uh, what? The vast majority of people in the US live in abject poverty? I'm going to have to ask for a citation on that one. Also, US development may be a massive ecological travesty, but it's hardly the most massive one in human history. So in fact I'm going to rate your whole post as -1, Hyperbolic.

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[Myopic]

Larger, maybe, but it can hardly be incomparably larger, considering you just compared them.

Also, the most pressing environmental catastrophe is the poisoning of the oceans.

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[ajs]

To be fair, Western Oil Companies have permission to do what they're doing. It's the government that's allowing it.

Obviously these oil companies aren't blameless, but to place the blame on them alone is to absolve those in power of their crimes, and that's not really very fair.

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[dr_dank]

WOOOOOOOSH!

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[Acer500]

If you don't find it offensive, I will pray for you and your grandfather.

I'm not religious, but I don't find it offensive at all and I appreciate your support.

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[Hognoxious]

Pretty sure the poverty in Asia is abjecter than the poverty in the USA. Africa is probably the abjectest.

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[Hognoxious]

The GP, aminorex, wrote:
    "The vast majority of the people in the U.S. live in abject poverty".

For that to be true the average American would indeed be poor, which Anonymusing - the person you're replying to - just refuted, and in consequence refuted aminorex's cretinously stupid assertion.

See, all this threading and context stuff really isn't too hard to understand. Try hard and you might get it in a year or two.

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[Satanboy]

Here's a suggestion. . .

My great grandfather was feeling like that and never had anyone to talk to so a great uncle of mine sat down and had him record stories from back in the day to tape.

He came over every weekend and just talked about the good old days. These are all recorded at my grandmothers house. We've sat back and listened to these years later and it gives you a really great perspective on your late relatives, and as I get older, I get some of the adult inferences I missed when I first heard the recordings as a child.

Maybe something like that, giving him something to contribute, would make him wake up and realize he's got stuff to do everyday that's important.

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[treeves]

Another theory: material wealth does not lead to happiness of the sort that would discourage suicide (not that this guy killed himself because he was unhappy).

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[EvilBudMan]

I don't know about that? I don't see too many poor people saying "I real happy because I am poor". I seem happier when I have more money than less. I dunno about it buying happiness but you sure can't be too happy without certain things, like food water, shelter. All of that stuff costs money.

--not that this guy killed himself because he was unhappy--

You may have the answer in that statement somewhere. There may be other reasons for that. Those statistics just seem odd somehow to me.

Maybe it's also harder to kill yourself if you are poor, at least the easy way like a gun, or a bunch of dope. Maybe the very poor just don't have access to that. It would be interesting to know the reason, don't you think?

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[twistedcubic]

Maybe it's just a heightened sense of privilege? Compare the suicide rates of American whites to African Americans (twice as many white suicides). If you think you're entitled to a certain type of life, it's very depressing when you realize it's impossible to achieve. Though African Americans have a much, much lower average income, live in poorer neighborhoods with more crime, get disrespected by cops and other authorities much more, etc, you might expect more suicides.

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[couchslug]

"What Richard Egan did is very Japanese. He concluded that his life would be a burden on his family, his friends, and himself. So, he chose to die by his own sword. He died with honor."

Very reasonable response.

Contemplate, after you KNOW what it looks like, the slow, horrible deterioration of mind, body, or both that is normal with the infirmities and diseases of age. If you live long enough, you are vastly more likely than not to be crippled and mad (not the happy sort of "mad"). Hmmm, do I want to die in a piss-soaked diaper with my pain barely controlled by medication (because physicians are often overcautious about managing the pain of dying people)? Does dementia look like fun? Modern medical technology can extend life for long after any reason (other then the delectation of imaginary celestial friends) for living is gone.

Society should get comfortable with discussing suicide, even though it means admitting we don't live forever.

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[Duhavid]

No problem. I wish I could do more.

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[tabrnaker]

In most parts of the world, food, water and shelter don't cost money. They cost you physical labour. Traveling to some of the 'poorest' parts of the world, i've seen more happy people than in any western city i've visited.
I do have to say i was suprised by the amount of happy and actualized people i did see in NY.

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[Hognoxious]

I'm sure some Nigerians are doing very nicely out of it.

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[uninformedLuddite]

I only have one colour TV

I don't even have that

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[uninformedLuddite]

That's why the Nigerian people are so upset with Western Oil Companies. In their minds those that they kidnap are major criminals raping and destroying their homes. In the West we call them 'captains of industry' and other names that in no way, shape, or form reflect honestly on what they do.

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[treeves]

you sure can't be too happy without certain things, like food, water, shelter.

True, but additional stuff beyond those basic necessities doesn't always make one happier. I've seen happy people in places where that's all they have (like Ethiopia), and unhappy people driving nice cars and owning big houses full of stuff. Relationships, good health, meaningful work, a clear conscience - these things contribute more to happiness than possessions do.

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[Alex Belits]

US population is about 5% of the world population, you moron!

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[EvilBudMan]

This seems like an interesting idea that makes sense to me. I wonder if someone already has data on this?

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[EvilBudMan]

Relationships, good health, meaningful work, a clear conscience - these things contribute more to happiness than possessions do.

Usually if you are working at least there is an income source that can be tied to money and the same for health. The more money you have the healthier you can be if you want to be.

But...you also bring up a valid point about relationships and clear conscience, yeah more really can't buy that, but just the appearance of friendship by fair weather friends. This can depress people that aren't equipped to deal with it, I guess. As some have got their money through devious means to say the least, they might have a problem there, I don't really know.

Let me ask you this:

If you woke up this morning and found $10,000 in your lap, would you be happier or sadder? I know which I would be.

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[treeves]

$10,000 would make me very happy for a short time, until it was gone, which would be in a very short time.
On second thought, if I could convince my wife to let me spend it on a new horn, instead of on paying off debt, I could be happy for a long time, as long as I got to play it.

Just read a couple of news stories recently about two young ladies in th UK who separately won the lottery. One invested and made wise choices, but the other, as happens often with lottery winners, blew her millions quickly and has little to show for it, and as I understand it, is not very happy now. Just anecdotes, I know, but they fit in with my worldview, so I tell them.

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[EvilBudMan]

I would know what to do with it if I had it. The first thing I would do is pay down debt after taxes of course, AND since it's a buyers' market, I would get some property. 100 acres with a home in the middle would make me real happy.

Since playing the lottery is a slim to none chance, I figure I will wait for someone else to buy me a winning ticket out of the goodness of their heart.

We'll anyhow the pipe dream is over, back to survival mode.

About the horn thing, couldn't you get one for $3,000? I would have to be a professional musician to throw down more than that on any instrument. Maybe kettle drums or a grand piano would cost way more than $10,000, but you know something that can be packed around can usually be had for $3,000.

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[treeves]

Well, I've already got a $3000 horn. I'd like one of these. But I've gone way off-topic now... Heck, I don't really have the kind of time I need to play it enough to make it worthwhile. But it would be fun. My own [horn]pipe dream.

Re:Suicide Rate in Japan

[EvilBudMan]

My eye can tell a difference in quality for sure. I doubt if my hearing could now though. It takes a lot of practice even if you are good to get to that level, but you are right some will blow any amount of money and end up broke. I don't know if there are pawn shops in the UK, but around here, you can find many cheap instruments there. They can be a hole to throw money as well as anything else like property. There are still places in small town US where you can live like a king if you go to the city for about 20 years to make your money and then come back. I ended up selling all of my instruments, Alto Sax, Clarinet, various Electric stuff. Now I just have one el cheapo Flat Top which is probably the thing I play worst, but you know everybody wants to play a guitar right? And if you know three chords? We'll you know the rest.

Getting back on topic, the suicide rate at least the successful ones are middle aged 40's and 50's. When you get there, your future seems more limited I guess especially if you loose a job, right here in the supposed land of opportunity.

No, Its Bull Shit

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

He was afraid of depending on others. Afraid of losing control of living life the way he wanted to. Afraid of pain, Afraid of suffering. He took his life out of fear. He is no hero, he is a coward.

Re:No, Its Bull Shit

[PiSkyHi]

If he was faced with certain pain in excess until death, then fear of pain has absolutely nothing to do with it. Its not that he is afraid of pain, its just that most people don't like pain. Most sane people will do what it takes to make the pain stop, since it is preferable not to go through it. The more rational ones that know there is no way for it to stop can possibly see death in a different way to yourself.

Fear suffering, not death - you can possibly avoid suffering.

Re:No, Its Bull Shit

[log0n]

He didn't want to burden others. He knew he would lose control over his abilities so he chose the death he wanted. Faced with incalculable pain and suffering both personally and his family, he took his life. He is no hero, he was a man who faced his demons the best he knew how.

Re:meh

[ElitistWhiner]

mod +1

Another Reason to Support Assisted Suicide

[xquercus]

Terminally ill residents of Oregon and Washington have the option of ending their own life within the existing medical framework. There are strict requirements and a number of checks and balances, but my understanding is that patients who request this option (and receive the appropriate approvals) are usually prescribed a lethal dose of a barbiturate. The high dose causes sleep and ultimately death. IMHO, this is significantly more dignified than a gunshot.

Re:Another Reason to Support Assisted Suicide

[Anonymous Coward]

The drug they use is Nembutal which is available in Mexico quite easily. Ensure you take an appropriate anti-emetic before taking the barbiturate so you don't vomit. It's peaceful.

Is anyone else bothered..

[cowtamer]

..by this universal glorification of suicide?

I can't judge this man, but I can't imagine that the "good job dying already" attitude I've seen in the article and EVERY post here helping people like the members of "Not Dead Yet": http://notdeadyetnewscommentary.blogspot.com/

Re:Is anyone else bothered..

[MozzleyOne]

I don't know about you, but the one thing I'm scared of more than death is slowly rotting, shitting and pissing my dignity away while all my loved ones watch and cry. I just hope I have the courage to do the same as he did if it comes to it.

Re:meh

[ppanon]

That straw woman was called Terri Schiavo.

fix the damn title

[velen]

It is not suicide, it is euthanasia. Big !@#!@# difference.

prosecute? no, but they can still get at you.

[Animaether]

The's the cool part about killing yourself--even if it's illegal it's not like they can prosecute you for it.

No, they can't prosecute you. You're dead. Woo, stick it to the man, man!

But -because- it's illegal, they can tie other things to it. Like freezing your assets. All those things you spelled out in your will? On hold. That money you were going to leave your children? On hold, possibly indefinitely, used to fund the investigations into your death, your autopsy, etc. etc.

How about non-legal matters, like insurance - does your end-of-life insurance (for, say, burial, cremation, etc.) provide coverage when committing suicide? Double-check the smallprint. How about the burial grounds or alcoves you want to be laid to rest... sure, you reserved a spot, but check -their- smallprint.. some, especially religious types, don't put those who committed suicide among the others.

But hey, at least they can't prosecute you, right? In many countries, the legal aspect doesn't even apply (i.e. it's not actually illegal to commit suicide). But in most countries, an attempt at suicide (i.e. failing to actually pull it off) -is- still illegal and is often grounds to have you psychologically evaluated at best or locked up in a ward at worst... after all, you're clearly insane.

What is meaningful about breaking the law?

[jotaeleemeese]

Or taking the law into your own hands?

That is the last thing I would expect from an honourable person.

Going out with a bang...

[EmagGeek]

I am all for allowing terminal patients a dignified way out. I don't have numbers on the tip of my brain, but I can only imagine the proportion of health care costs that are incurred in the final months of life for terminal patients. We spend entirely too much money trying to prolong the inevitable.

Mortality rate holds steady at 100%

[Organic Brain Damage]

I really find this "he ended the battle decisively" paradigm misleading and counterproductive. Life is not a battle. We all die. It's not defeat to die at age 70+. The first step is to accept the fact that you and I are both going to die someday. Then, most importantly, to use that knowledge to prioritize our expenditure of time while we are healthy. And, second, when we're no longer healthy and have no prospect of becoming healthy again, plan a reasoned end of life. It is stupid, to fight it to the bitter end, in complete denial of reality. My best friend did just that when faced with death due to liver failure. He was in terrible physical condition (too much programming, not enough moving) and would not have survived a transplant (had one been available) and he died at age 52 in an ICU after a year of balancing shitting himself with losing his cognitive function. He went into his final coma believing he'd win the lottery, get a liver transplant operation, survive it and be back to his healthy self. He never said goodbye to his wife or brothers.

Cryonics?

[seven of five]

If you like your life, but it currently sucks, how about an overdose of pills followed by cryonic suspension? Suicide in the face of debilitating disease is just an emphatic commentary on the current state of medicine. But medicine will get better.

Well... bye!

[Uniquitous]

I'd probably do the same thing. "It's been a good life, but faced with leaving it now or lingering on in terrible pain, I think it's time to go."

Anyone remember that gif?

[autoevolution]

Reminds me of the man without a face, the one that tried to commit suicide by shotgun to face, but failed. He was alive all right, but he literally had no face, his jaw, eyes, cheekbones, cheeks were all blown to bits. He had a large gaping hole in his head for a face. I'm too lazy to look up the article but the gif image of him after he blew up his face was pretty gruesome, almost made me puke so be warned before you go off searching for it.

Smoker?

[jshackney]

I'm curious... none of the articles I've found this morning clarify whether or not he was a smoker.

Re:Smoker?

[crow]

I'm pretty sure I remember seeing him smoking, but I could be remembering wrong. It's been quite a while since I've seen him. (I'm a long-time EMC employee, so I saw him at quarterly company-wide events; I may have spoken to him once or twice, but I can't say that I knew him.)

Re:Smoker?

[uninformedLuddite]

The fact none of them mentions it probably answers that question. After all, we only found out the truth on throat cancer after the Gardasil vaccine became available. Those statistics where hidden for years and of course blamed on smokers. I cannot talk about this much further as I could become a stereotypical target of hate-crime legislation.

• I do not support smoking (I support a person's right to smoke)
• I am not saying that smoking is a healthy activity
• I am not full of hate.

My grandfather took that very option

[bebemochi]

He had lung cancer AND prostate cancer. Late-stage lung cancer is horrible. My grandfather made use of the Death with Dignity Act in Oregon to request assisted suicide; we all supported his choice. It's hard not to when you see an intelligent, once-active man become delirious from pain, and bedridden due to having to be hooked up to machines that keep him from drowning to death (fluids in the lungs).

I'm one of the Oregon voters who voted twice for Death with Dignity, and am very glad that my grandfather was able to die at his own choosing, in a humane manner. (I don't think having to grab a shotgun and shoot yourself in the head, plus knowing others will find you and have to witness the scene, is humane - I say it not against Egan, but because I wish Egan had had a better choice.)

A sad end...

[dtjohnson]

People here say this was the "brave" thing to do but living is always harder than dying. I don't know what the man's condition was but thousands of people every day are diagnosed with serious terminal illnesses and face their fate with courage and dignity, without the need to kill themselves as they leave the doctor's office. Millions more live (not die) every day with major disabilities and handicaps that make their lives more difficult than it would be for someone who was in "perfect" condition. This man put a shotgun to his head and left his friends and family to deal with a bloody mess to remember him by. His final legacy will be 'he blew his brains out' that will overshadow his lifetime accomplishments and leave his descendants with a permanent memory of suicide.

Re:A sad end...

[slothman32]

What did George Eastman do?
I rarely think about his death; but all the inventions and cameras he created, probably with other inventors.

Budd Dewyer...

[jameskojiro]

Nothing like a gun to your own head on Live TV.....

Budd's the man!!!

"Egan is survived by wife Maureen and five sons"

[zaanan]

Wonder how they feel. If I did that, my wife would kill me.

Re:The final answer...

[Cedric Tsui]

Well you see Richard. These... 'molecules' you speak of.
They are like children. They lack confidence and there are many more followers than leaders.
They often need their own space and will go to great lengths to attain it. Yet, sometimes they form tight friendships and sometimes, eternal romances.

Err. Navier-Stokes equation? Mathematics? Hmmm. I never did understand why you used such a shallow language to describe such lovely things.

At least, thats how I picture the conversation.

I've been close to suicide

[prometheus123abc]

I'm glad that someone here is finally admitting the moral complexity of suicide. Slasdot, while incredibly smart about some things, is sometimes lacking. Slashdotters don't like grey areas. Often, the impulse is either to condemn something as entirely right, or entirely wrong. I suppose this isn't much different from the rest of society- I just expect more out of my beloved /. In January of this past year, I was VERY close to suicide. How close, you might ask? Well, long story short, I had the rope fastened to a coathook in my closet, looped around my neck, but my closet wasn't tall enough to provide enough height for an instant death, and so I didn't go through with it. There was no epiphany. I didn't "see the light." It was a simple logistical problem. That is the level that a suicidal person's thought has reached. There are no moral judgements. There is no more fear. There are no desires except one- to be free of the pain. Looking back on it, I can see that, at that time in my life, I was almost reduced to an animalistic level of thought. (not animalistic in terms of survival instinct, but in terms of consciousness) I had no thoughts to spare about other people- in fact, I hated them for not being there for me. I still wanted to commit suicide later. Eventually though, I realized that, having lost my fear of death, I was free to do anything. As Edmund Burke said, pain is only the introduction to the grandest of terrors: death. Nowadays, I feel great. I still sometimes get sad about things that happened in the past... but I am free from fear. Once you face death, the fear of pain, and all other fears seem insignificant in comparison. But I won't universally condemn euthanasia or the struggle to live. Universal condemnations are usually made by people who are not intimately acquainted with the complex nature of suicide. The only thing I will say is- if you are going to kill yourself, you are obviously free from the fear of death. Why not take advantage of that fact to live a life of free action? Of course- if things get really bad, and I'm in a coma, or not strong/sentient enough to choose to die, lying there, withering away, I would hope that someone would pull my plug. Until that day though, I am going to live free, do everything I feel like doing, and never hold back.

Re:I've been close to suicide

[GradiusCVK]

I too have been in a situation similar to yours. I also didn't have an epiphany that saved me, but I can't claim to have been saved by random luck... for me, it was cowardice. I was ready, everything was all set, and I stood there for hours trying to shame myself into doing it, but I couldn't. Eventually, my dad called me out of the blue, and that was the end of that. I fell deeper into depression, realizing that I hated my life, but was unable to do anything about it. That lasted quite a long time. Eventually, I did have a bit of an epiphany of sorts, but it was actually the culmination of months (actually, a couple years) of soul-searching and deep, painful analysis of my own psyche... my life, my motivations, my values... the kinds of things I hope most people don't have to seriously consider.

From first-hand experience, I can attest to your statement that something like that completely alters one's outlook on life. When I was satisfied that I had exhausted my search for personal truth (to the extent that is possible at any given time), I too felt complete freedom, wanting nothing, unmoved by the trivialities of life, completely satisfied with whatever I had, and able to live comfortably with myself. Much of that remains. However, in the years since, I've also developed a renewed love of life and the people who have made it so special for me, and though I'm still free of many of my own demons and lusts, I've discovered a powerful devotion and sense of obligation to those who've given me so much.

Looking back on it, the actual event that tipped the scale and brought me close to the brink was pathetically trivial, and I'm rather embarrassed about the ridiculous words and actions I made in response to it, and the people I hurt in so doing. Still, I have a much better understanding of myself now, and that has helped me to make better decisions and work to be a better person. I am so happy that you were saved (not your life, your spirit) and can now experience life the way it was intended... you've been given a new life, where you can grow into the person you want to be, free from the burdens of your past. I wish you happiness and success in your new journey.

Re:I've been close to suicide

[Thing 1]

Sounds like you've found something worth living for. In case there are others out there who are reading this who have not, I would like to offer the following site and associated technique: http://www.emofree.com/

This is EFT, the Emotional Freedom Technique. It's basically just "tapping" on different parts of your body, using your fingers. It is so simple to learn, and has many amazing benefits. I'm recovering from a bunch of different issues including layoff (these days, who isn't?), and EFT has been remarkably useful in this regard.

It's not "Western Science" so may perhaps be a bit for someone to take in. I've also practiced Jin Shin Jyutsu, and after 40 hours of practice I am able to feel the energy in my fingertips (it's like a numbness, like my fingers fell asleep, except they can also feel normally if I touch something -- for me; others experience is as a hot/cold sensation, others as a pressure like magnetism, and others as almost a wind; the "sixth sense" is really not something separate at all, it uses nerves you're already accustomed to, just in a different manner).

Anyway, like I said, you sound like you've gotten through your issues. I hope that anybody else who is struggling with emotions can seek out knowledge of the EFT technique; it is literally a life-saver, and can help with so many emotional issues as well (like fear of heights, or driving, or public speaking, etc).

which

[OrangeTide]

boy or girls? I suppose it doesn't matter.

You said it.

[Weaselmancer]

My father died of cancer. He wanted to do it at home, hospice style. He hated hospitals. So I was with him throughout his last day. It didn't happen in a hospital, he did it at home. With me as primary caregiver. I got to be there for the whole thing. I know what you're going through and you have my deepest sympathies. Not just for the loss, but for the manner of it as well.

And as for this guy with lung cancer ending his life - I don't blame him one single bit. It's not cowardice, it's not bravery, it's nothing but making the decision he was happiest with. Could he have lived a while longer? Sure. Would he have enjoyed it? Not a chance.

Nothing wrong with what he did at all.

Moderators get over yourselves

[Raul Acevedo]

I don't agree with the parent post one bit, and apparently I'm not alone. However, that doesn't mean cosm is a troll. S/he happens to disagree with your opinion, and in fact cosm's point of view is shared by many people, and has its validity regardless of whether you agree with it in this situation or even in general. I wish I had moderator points to mod the parent up; not because I agree with the post, but because "disagreement" is not the same as "trolling".

Re:have you seen death?

[SanityInAnarchy]

the Church itself does not believe in hell or its punishments. It only wants us to believe.

Irrelevant. For all we know, hell exists, and every member of the church will go there.

For all we know, everyone goes to hell, or only those who refused to eat broccoli go to heaven, or perhaps heaven is worse than hell.

Which do you fear more?
The hell where you cannot be pricked with needles or the hell where you are forced to bow, forced to beg, isolated, forced to physical pain all by someone you can see and know.

"Cannot be pricked with needles" meaning the afterlife, I assume.

You're making a claim that you have no evidence for.

An unknown offers the same hope that America offered to Christopher Columbus.

That doesn't make it a smart decision. Suppose the Americas hadn't been there -- Columbus would've died at sea. What's more, he never knew he discovered another continent -- he went to his grave thinking he'd discovered India.

Will your God

My god?

I'm an atheist. But thanks for assuming.

The question is, if you are facing the end of your life, if you're right, it's the beginning of your life in heaven. If I'm right, it's the end of your existence -- and frankly, I think pain and a loss of dignity is far better than no existence at all.

And if neither of us are right, it could be worse than anything we know.

How often does he commit suicide?

[AP31R0N]

Daily, weekly? Irregularly but frequently? Seems like the kind of thing he'd do just the once, not infinitively.

Internet sales tax

[Captain Tripps]

The last two states I've lived in had a section of their income tax forms for paying out-of-state sales tax. If you wanted to itemize everything you bought that year, you could. But I imagine most people pick the option of paying a small flat tax and only itemizing very large purchases. Either way, it's a required section of the state's income tax return. (Though you could of course claim to have made no such purchases.)