Slashdot Mirror
"Windows 7 Compatible" PCs Must Be 64-bit
Barence writes "Microsoft has started certifying PCs as 'compatible with Windows 7' — and is looking to avoid the mistakes that dogged the Vista-Capable scheme. Whereas Microsoft certified PCs that could only run Vista Home Basic last time around, this time PCs will have to work with all versions of Windows 7 to qualify for the sticker, including 64-bit versions of the OS. Microsoft also claims, 'products that receive the logo are checked for common issues to minimize the number of crashes, hangs, and reboots experienced by the user.'"
This will be another nail in the 32bit coffin.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
At this point why even bother releasing a 32bit installer at all?
On the Oregon Cost born and raised, On the beach is where I spent most of my days
Cuz without the VT ability in the CPU, it ain't gonna work, is my understanding. A lot of companies who cheaped out and bought lower-end CPU machines are going to be unpleasantly surprised if they need this ability. :(
I know as a dev, I'm going to have to request an upgrade to a machine that's compatabile with Windows XP mode. *sigh*
How about forceing them to give you the 64 bit disk / a iso link?
Linux doesn't "support" customers at all. Debian and Ubuntu have community support lifecycles, and you can buy support from Red Hat or Novell if you want.. but GNU/Linux is just some code, not a service.
Plus Microsoft isn't abandoning their customers. Windows 2000 extended support lasts through 2010 and XP extended support lasts through 2014. They just want to try to force OEMs to get with it and stop offering 32-bit processors.
this time PCs will have to work with all versions of Windows 7 to qualify for the sticker
Nonsense, there are lot's of systems out there, particularly Netbooks, which will not. Certainly will not necessarily be 64-bit.
If it only ran on 64-bit-capable systems, why is there a 32-bit version of Win 7 at all?
The sticker needs to tell these people the feature set they'll be capable of running. They couldn't care less about the processor architecture.
What? They're not ending support of the 32-bit installer. There's no "abandoning" occurring. It figures the trolls are the ones who read the summary backwards and upside down.
I believe the install media contains both 32 and 64 bit installers now.
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
There is plenty of old hardware out there which only has 32-bit drivers. 64-bit Windows is a pure 64-bit kernel space meaning no 32-bit code at all. So, if you have a device with 32-bit drivers, you have to use the 32-bit version.
Also there are also some apps that fall in to this category. If they have a kernel component (like a virus scanner) that has to be 64-bit. If you have an old app that you need that doesn't have a 64-bit kernel module, well again you need the 32-bit version.
Finally there are computers that are sufficiently powerful to run 7 that don't have 64-bit CPUs. Netbooks are a good example. My coworker has tested 7 on his netbook and found it to be plenty fast. However, Netbook CPUs are still 32-bit only.
So it is a compatibility thing. It isn't really for new PCs so much as old upgrade PCs. All new PCs should ship with 64-bit chips.
... whatever it takes.
Have gnu, will travel.
What about netbooks running 32-bit CPUs? Those will all be declared incompatible with Windows 7, even though 32-bit Windows 7 will run on them? I think I must be missing something.
If only Microsoft had done the world a huge favor, and made Windows 7 64-bit only. And if only they had dropped a few different flavors of Windows 7, too. It would all be so much less confusing and frustrating.
why do people with 64 bit hardware still run the 32-bit version of the os?
Is it just ignorance?
But do systems ship with both or just a 32bit restore?
Logic prevailed.
All right, there seems to be an awful lot of cluelessness about what this actually means. Let's check off all the wrong ideas spouted the "Microsoft WARGARBL" crowd a mere 22 comments in:
"Microsoft won't sell me Win 7 for an uncertified machine."
Wrong. You can buy Win 7 at retail however you like.
"Microsoft won't allow system makers to sell me Win 7 for an uncertified machine."
Wrong. A vendor can sell a system that doesn't meet certification with Win 7 installed, but that badge WILL color consumer purchasing decisions. The manufacturers that carry it would tout its merits, Microsoft will tout its merits, and a machine sold without it better come with a steep discount.
"Netbooks won't meet these certification requirements, so that automatically means the requirements don't exist."
That, or the netbooks will be sold without certification. Amazing concept, I know, but a computer can be sold without a sticker on it.
They should abandon the 32 bit OS version then. It makes no sense now. You can still run 32 bit executables under 64 bit. Offering 32 bit OS versions at this point adds an unnecessary test and support burden on developers for the rather marginal benefit of pointer size and shipped footprint.
"'products that receive the logo are checked for common issues to minimize the number of crashes, hangs, and reboots experienced by the user.'"
The Vista USB issue was a good example. And this policy would not have prevented that.
A manager at work insisted their new laptop had Vista pre-installed several years ago(pre SP 1).
Initially all was well, till it started blue-screening at random after about 6 months. It was difficult for me to nail down until Ipods(itunes) new ver 8 came out and bluescreened the machine 100% of the time when the iPod was plugged in. That was the clue I needed. Investigation found a disparity between the OS and the some (not all) USB controllers.Remember, some laptops can have different contoller type for side and back. At the time a few hot fixes wasnt 100% reliable.
Then SP1 came out, and I found a reference to my problem in the release notes. Not one problem since with USB. The manager can use her Ipod, any and all usb sticks, her USB printer at home, her camera. The fix was a couple years in the making.
In post Patriot Act America, the library books scan you.
The sticker in question (Windows 7 Compatible) is not intended for use on a computer -- it's intended for peripherals and add-ons. Mice, keyboards, graphics cards, network cards, routers, etc. etc.
.
What the hell is wrong this site? Are the editors becoming so lazy that they don't stop for two seconds to understand the stupidity of their headlines? You would think that Win7 isn't being offered in 32-bit mode from reading it. Instead, what it means is that any device you buy with that sticker will work with 32-bit windows and 64-bit windows.
What media. Most computers ship with a partition that will restore the computer back to factory default. If MS was being really nice, they would make companies ship computers with a real CD with just the OS on it, so people could install just the operating system from scratch if they see fit.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
Note the silence of the "Mac Jihad" when you're the second person to post, and anonymously at that. Really sure of your argument there, sonny eh?
Apple are still supporting older versions of OS X to this day (just upped a PPC to latest 10.5 with a recent security patch to boot), and kept up with the Classic environment for a long time.
10.6 is Intel only, but that was not surprising at all.
Other than just getting in a cheap jab at Apple while you were (incorrectly) bashing Linux for "abandoning customers", do you have anything to back up your weak arguments or did you go to the Right Wing Talk Radio Host school of debating?
Cue the Linux fanbois... ...screaming about how Bill is abandoning their customers after YEARS of support, whilst the Penguin does the same with 2 years of a kernel release.
Note the silence of the Mac Jihad.
I guess you read the summary backwards and didn't even consider clicking on the article.
I'm no Microsoft fan (Linux purist of 6 years now) but they are merely requiring hardware makers to provide stable 32-bit and 64-bit drivers in order to get a "Works with Windows 7 Certification."
This is a good thing for every day people.
Just recently I tried to help out a friend with a Vista 64bit computer to get his Hauppauge WinTV PVR 150 to work. Apparently it does not support any more than 3GB of RAM and is basically unusable (he has 8GB of RAM). It causes programs to crash and flat-out will not work with Pinnacle Studio 9.
Hauppauge claims it has something to do with the 64bit memory allocation or something. I can't quite remember what it was.
Maybe this will require them to revisit their drivers and make it "Just Work" like it should.
Why do we need 64-bits anyhow for desktops? For big RAM? Only if the OS is bloated do we need more. I don't wanna pay a 64bit tax when I buy a new computer unless there's a reason for it. And get off my lawn :-)
Table-ized A.I.
You're right, probable just one of the two on a restore partition. I've heard that your license for retail disks is valid for both 64 and 32, but I'm not sure if OEM licenses are the same way.
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
They are just trying not to get sued again by someone that tries to run the product on a PC 5 to 8 years old that barely runs XP well. As for backwards support (or abandoning it) that worked well for Apple.
"Buy our new 64-bit compatible embroidery machines" is the reply. The 64-bit transition is an upsell opportunity, just like the transition from 32-bit XP to 32-bit Vista.
Weird how they know of "common issues" in advance.
I hope they stop letting laptop makers put the CRAP Intel Graphics chips in.
My "Vista Experience" is above 5 for everything, except the video card which is 3.2.
This is on a C2D w/ 4GB RAM and Vista-64. It should never have been allowed.
We all need to demand that CRAP stop.
because a lot of people like me have several computers that are 32 bit, and work just fine. Companies have 32 bit computers they don't use to full capacity. There is a move to virtualize several (32 bit) computers on to 1 server just to get the server to 80% capacity.
So why spend thousands (with my small network) 100's of thousands (for companies) migrating to 64 bit? I really can't justify the added expense just to say oooo look at me i have 64 bit and 3% CPU usage.
I am a software developer, have my own company, host a test / prototype server for QA and customer demos over the Internet and NEVER been in a situation where I thought, "HUMM, I wish I had a 64 bit system, this 32 bit ain't cutting it anymore."
I'd really like to see a test case where by going from 32 to 64 bit was such a dramatic increase that the time has come for a "about frikkin time!" epiphany.
I hate organic food. Too expensive.
Also, perhaps you should take a couple of minutes to do some calming breathing exercise while you wait for Windows to reboot after the blue screen.
What good is this OS then if the Penguin won't even take my tech calls? If Linus isn't willing to support this monstrosity, he needs to halt development.
Seriously, don't beg me to switch to the Linux if you're not going to support it. That is BAD BUSINESS.
Linus might have created the kernel, but at the end of the day, he isn't responsible for 90% of GNU/Linux as it exists today. Tens (maybe hundreds?) of thousands of individuals brought GNU/Linux to its current state, and most would have no affiliation with each other. Don't assume GNU/Linux is a simple product. It's a massive community project. Holding Linus responsible for problems in GNU/Linux distros is like holding the Wright brothers responsible for problems with modern airplanes.
There is free support for Linux via the newsgroups, forums, Wiki sites, HOWTOs, Man pages, and many other things. But beware of the trolls that like to bite the n00bz and say RTFM. You need to have actually read the Linux manual before asking questions which consists of man pages.
Man ls
For example will display a man page for the "ls" command which functions like the MS-DOS "dir" command and some Linux distros will have a "dir" batch file to help DOS users adapt.
Judging from you attitude this sort of thing happened to you.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
Mmmmm. Gotta love man (some odd argument) pages as a form of user education.
You can google/whateversearch both operating systems and get answers. Both have wikis, both have forums, both have newsgroups. There's also a mix of arrogant bastards and truly helpful types among those that support each.
If you want to get it fixed quick, have open source and someone that knows the difference between a compiler argument and a live hand grenade. If you want to use hand holding, pay for support and wait your turn for fixes from some coder burning midnight oil or trying to hold on to his/her job @ Microsoft (or a contractor).
That Microsoft has a seemingly real certification program is a good thing. 64-bit is good. I held on to 8-bit, then 16-bit, then 32-bit. They were all good. 64-bit is better, and it's dirt cheap, even the V/VT-compatible processors. But the people that actually need Windows 7 are few, and it will arrive on new hardware whether we like it or not, unless we choose the 'other' option.
So, much to-do over nothing is the theme of this thread. Let the flames begin.
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
'products that receive the logo are checked for common issues to minimize the number of crashes, hangs, and reboots experienced by the user.'
Does that mean that products with the sticker come *without* Windows?
MS doesn't support customers either, they support large corporations, for a rather hefty fee. Ma and Pa have no chance of ever speaking to someone who works at MS.
Online support for MS products pale in comparison to online support for linux, which is the only support most people will get aside from the family tech.
Erm im not sure thats how the case went down, it was more like:
1)User buys POS pc with vista ready logo and vista installed
2)Realises it doesn't run vista at all well even though it has a "made for vista" sticker.
3)User sues MS
4)It turns out MS were giving "made for vista" stickers out with thier lollipop!
5)Profit
IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
the newsgroups, forums, Wiki sites, HOWTOs, Man pages, and many other things
;-) so Never mind.)
Pretty much the same places most folks find support for "other" operating systems too. Well, "Man pages" do seem a bit "Unixy" and a proper HOWTO did come into its own during the Linux era, but still, Googling a random Windows or OSX issue is generally the fastest way to find a solution, rather than going to a particular vendors site first.
Who needs bookmarks when you can use a search engine? (Ironically, if you google "current slashdot", all the top hits are old... heh, some would opine that it is much like the actual site
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
"Visual Studio 2008 is a 32-bit application and when installed on a 64-bit Windows operating system will run under WOW64".
Not to mention, VS and MS Office are still unmanaged C++ applications, not C# or managed C++ (or whatever term they use these days) .NET apps.
Manpages are a godsend for the new and experienced user alike, although I have a few major gripes with how they're written. The manpage for ls is particularly bad, and suffers from some serious bloat. Here's the one from BSD/OSX (I'm pretty sure the GNU equivalent is mostly identical):
And this goes on for about 2,200 more lines of cryptically-written text. Yikes. That's a lot of options. Most users (myself included) have only used 3 or 4 for day-to-day use. If you're piping into sed/awk, some of the others can be useful, although scrolling through the whole damn manpage to find 'ls -l' or somesuch is maddening. The 80-20 principle definitely needs to somehow be applied here.
I frequently fault documentation for being too sparse, although in this case, we have the exact opposite extreme.
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
Ugh, searching for current slashdot will give you slashdot pages about current
As for backwards support (or abandoning it) that worked well for Apple.
Lots of things work well for Apple, including;
Let's see Microsoft try that and get away with it. Oh wait, they tried and didn't.
while you wait for Windows to reboot after the blue screen.
1998 called... it wants its Windows criticism back.
Bad example, perhaps. Smart conservative radio hosts are quite accomplished in debate (although many are only good at cutting off those who disagree and are better at debate than they are), but i guess you had a little jab of your own you wanted to make sure got in there.
There is free support for Linux via the newsgroups, forums, Wiki sites, HOWTOs, Man pages, and many other things. But beware of the trolls that like to bite the n00bz and say RTFM. You need to have actually read the Linux manual before asking questions which consists of man pages.
The easy way around that is just say that Linux sucks because: . Then hordes of Linux fan boys will jump to assist you to defend Linux
For example, you don't ask what the command is that functions like MS-DOS. You say, "Linux sucks because it doesn't display like MS-DOS."
Boom, they all will answer to defend Linux.
Yes mommy. May we clean out your douchebag as well?
Pretty sure its different media. The RTM versions on MSDNAA have completely different discs.
Vista certified meant nothing. I got burned. I am still waiting to be made whole.
'certified PCs that could only run Vista Home'
Yep. Got one of those.
Kiss my ass Bill and Steve and Mr. Intel.
No. Let me rephrase that FUCK YOU! Clear enough?
The next box is gonna have ARM and Linux.
I don't care how good your next product is, or even if it comes with a free skittle shitting unicorn.
Your days are OVER.
This was my last fucking.
And this goes on for about 2,200 more lines of cryptically-written text. Yikes. That's a lot of options. Most users (myself included) have only used 3 or 4 for day-to-day use. If you're piping into sed/awk, some of the others can be useful, although scrolling through the whole damn manpage to find 'ls -l' or somesuch is maddening. The 80-20 principle [wikipedia.org] definitely needs to somehow be applied here.
Did you try `ls --help`? That's there exactly for the quick stuff.
Businesses *do* use Linux. Companies like Red Hat provide support (and they're doing quite well thank you)
There is free support for Linux via the newsgroups, forums, Wiki sites, HOWTOs, Man pages, and many other things.
Here we go again. You'll have all the documentation you could ever need, but none of them address your problem. You won't find anyone who can help you, since they read the same manuals. And the fun part: unless you describe in great detail all the fucking things you tried, you'll be blamed for not getting useful answers, and if you ask again, for having the problem in the first place.
Before you mod me down, go ahead and find the answer to the following example: I have a laptop (1280x800) and an external screen (1680x1050). How do I 1) enable both screens at full resolution, 2) enable only the external screen when it's connected, 3) disable Xinerama when it's not connected?
Works fine on my box, but, the Q8400 CPU is listed as "VT" approved. I installed it and it's really slick how it works, and funny seeing windows XP in a window
Sounds like Hauppauge needs to hire competent programmers to develop a proper 64bit device driver. Other reputable hardware manufactures don't seem to have this problem. I'm just saying...
Life is not for the lazy.
It's funny you should mention that, because that's EXACTLY what I have for my laptop - an external screen displaying at 1680x1050 when connected, and otherwise the laptop screen at 1280x800. Of course, I'm using the nvidia-settings panel rather than xinerama. If you're using a nvidia chipset, and have no qualms about closed source drivers, I'd highly recommend you use this solution. The only really irritating problem about it is that you have to either unplug and then restart the X server, or go into the control panel to change it - there's no "if unplugged, automatically switch displays" that I'm aware of.
This time all versions of Windows 7 will have to work with PCs to qualify for release. But hey, the one who has a monopoly makes rules - and suckers must follow.
The 80-20 principle [wikipedia.org] definitely needs to somehow be applied here.
No, I don't think it does. Man pages should be long enough to detail exactly how all the command options work. No longer and no shorter. I don't want some information arbitrarily left out just because a newbie doesn't know how to search for -l instead of scrolling through the whole document looking for it. Remember, the obscure options are the ones people need man pages for the most. You'll probably look up the -l flag for ls once when you first start using Linux and never again. The obscure stuff is what you're going to come back for time and time again.
We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
Ok, so the exceptions are the two Linux companies that frequently are used by corporations thus completely invalidating the rest of your post. Nice work.
We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
Do you know why people burn-out so quickly nowadays? No more coffee-breaks while compiling or waiting for a print-job.
Many office worker happily recharged with a cup of joe listening to the gentle banging of the line printer churning out reams of paper.
Ah, happy days... [puts on MP3 of line-printer]
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
If you think right-wing talk radio is bad, you should try going to a Student Socialist Worker meeting. Though I did manage to shut them up by asking if any of them had ever had a job.
This is exactly why businesses don't use Linux.
They don't? Every company I've worked for has used Linux in some (fairly major) capacity - one of them used Linux exclusively and I currently run a company that uses Linux exclusively.
Real service calls aside, it is nice to have a software maker that is ultimately responsible for the product, as opposed to Linux where at best you can get a forum post on whatever software is broken.
If you think the vendor is "ultimately responsible" then you clearly didn't bother to read the EULAs on the commercial software you're using, which all pretty much universally disclaim responsibility for anything that goes wrong (as far as the law allows them to).
As for support, if you want commercial support for Linux then there are plenty of companies willing to sell it to you, so your argument seems bunk.
With consultants, Windows is FAR cheaper than finding someone who knows Linux in a production setting.
My experience contradicts this.
Very few people actually have worked on Linux in a true business production environment, and that expertise does not come cheap.
Most of the _clueful_ IT people I've dealt with (and some of the clueless ones) have got a reasonable amount of Linux experience.
http://blog.nexusuk.org
Microsoft does not support the majority of their customers because OEM versions are supported by hardware manufacturers.
...and, AFAIK, you can't buy extended support (from Microsoft) for OEM versions and the hw manufacturers are not required to provide extended support.
so, unless you are big business, you don't have any real technical support, "pls. reinstall and call back" is the best advice you are given.
I'm getting more proffessional support for Liunux from the Linux community and from paid Linux proffessionals than you can get for Windows from anyone!
...and Linux proffessionals do not tell you that you are using wrong hardware or running the wrong kind of Linux.
640kb is enough for everyone!
Its almost 2010, time to give a flying **** about forward compatibility, and shove all the "omg critical" 60s/70s/80s era applications inside a simple VM/java applet/whatevertheheck where they belong. The solder on those "custom" interface cards talking to 30 year old industrial equipment with 1/1000th the transistors of my cellphone should be failing by now, even with the lead in it.
Today's multicore cpu can emulate a bajillion old old machines including all their amazing fancy custom hardware at the "native" speed of yesteryear, you can probably run the biggest corps entire operation from back then inside a single rack or far less.
BTW, all the other ways to go above 4gb (more like ~3gb in a typical system due to hardware remap and similar BS) have far worse drawbacks in the long run, especially in a few years when a $100 netbook will come with 16gb of ram.
Grandma's new computer won't be "slow" because of "64bit os/apps" it will be because of the malware running on it, combined with an overpriced shoddy internet connection.
Sounds like Hauppauge needs to hire competent programmers to develop a proper 64bit device driver. Other reputable hardware manufactures don't seem to have this problem. I'm just saying...
But then quite a few seem to have it. I regularly see peripheral hardware that's 32bit only (due to driver issues).
Of course you only even see it in the user forums, not on the packages...
May contain traces of nut.
Made from the freshest electrons.
Personally, I see it as nothing more than another ploy on Microsoft's part. Sure, only 64-bit machines will get the logo. But there will still be plenty of 32-bit machines sold with Windows 7 without the logo. Maybe not by the major players, but nevertheless... In addition, people who have spent a great deal on a machine and software that is only 32-bit, and may not work in a 64-bit environment aren't necessarily going to run out and upgrade all their hardware and software.
So, when all the bugs start cropping up, Microsoft can claim it is not their problem. They can claim it is because people are using un-certified hardware.
Well what if I want support to my 100+ machines beowulf cluster? Most communities doesnt even know how the hell it looks!
XP Mode won't work without it; I'd REALLY love to see only machines with support for VT/AMD-V and with it turned on in the BIOS by default be Windows 7 certified. I have a Gateway LT3103u which has an Athlon 64 processor, which has AMD-V; Gateway disabled it, because they are assholes. (I should have known better, but I honestly have been happy with every piece of Gateway hardware I've ever touched... until now) This machine currently ships with Vista but after the Windows 7 launch it will almost certainly come with 7...
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
unless you describe in great detail all the fucking things you tried, you'll be blamed for not getting useful answers,
yeah what a bunch of unreasonable cunts! why the fuck don't they just use their PSYCHIC FUCKING POWERS to remotely troubleshoot your problem. How dare they expect you to present sufficient information for them to eliminate the near infinite possible factors that might affect your situation. HOW FUCKING UNREASONABLE.
YOU *FUCKING* DICK
MUST run 64 bit code? How are they going to put Windows 7 on Netbooks?
Do Netbooks get special dispensation?
So far, commercial customer support wasn't able to help me for questions that go beyond their FAQ. Might as well search the web.
NB: The message above might reflect my opinion right now, but not necessarily tomorrow or next year.
Either they only have built a 32-bit driver and there is no technical reason why they couldn't do a 64-bit one,
or, their code makes assumptions about the size of a memory address, which means it cuts addresses short when they go over 32 bits or otherwise malfunctions or crashes. e.g. one of the most common mistakes is subtracting memory addresses and storing the difference in an "int" or "long int", which are both 32-bit integers on Windows.
That is not "support" (in the context of the parent) in the same way that, say, a passer-by providing first-aid at the scene of an accident is not health care. Availability, timeliness and quality is random - highly unreliable.
"You need to have actually read the Linux manual" is the first thing wrong with Linux, in terms of being suitable for mass-adoption. For some people obviously this is not an issue - actually I suspect it's often the main attraction.
"You need to have actually read the Linux manual before asking questions" compounds the first.
cool on sandboxie ...
Have you every called Microsoft support? They dont support customers either.
In fact I have NEVER found a software company to actually support the customer.
This is why people call places like "Geek Squad" and other IT support companies. because Microsoft DOES NOT SUPPORT the customer. They leave it up to 3rd parties to do customer support.
Windows 7 is just some code, not a service. I am certain that is why Microsoft dropped the "Os as a service" track they had a few years ago. If the users pay a monthly fee for the software, then the customers expect and demand hand holding and full time support.
So let's be realistic when we talk about "support" from a company. Microsoft's customer support is no better than Anything else. As far as I am concerned, their expert technicians are useless even at the high level corporate stuff. I ran Server 2000 enterprise and MSSQL Enterprise and our in house team figured out the problem after microsoft outright gave up.
When your users know more about your products than your own experts, you cant offer support.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
And the exact same thing can and is said about windows.
If you call Microsoft they will not give you any answers to those questions either.
Just try and troubleshoot why windows wont display on a fricking projector... you dont have any config files to go looking through and the only suggestions are "reboot with the projector attached this time"...
Microsoft support SUCKS. it's as bad as anything else. It blows my mind when people come into discussions like this claiming they give support, they dont. Those of us that actually have tried to get some out of them know this.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
So Microsoft sends a guy to your house to hand hold you until you learn it?
Last I knew you had to read the manual for Windows as well.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Why should they? the PVR150 is a discontinued card. how about the cheapskate buy a current card that will work with vista64? Any NTSC only card was discontinued 3 years ago.
Honestly, you can not expect support or drivers for any discontinued hardware in windows.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
I have ben using 64 bit Vista and now 64 bit & for about a year and a half. Outlook itself works fine in 64 bit Vista and 7. As far as hardware support, the only hardware I have had that doesn't work is a 6 year old GE webcam and a 5 year old USB video capture device.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
don't beg me to switch to the Linux
Who's begging? None of us give a rat's ass what you use. Seriously.
I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
I'm sick and tired of people spreading FUD about how 64bit programs are larger due to 8-byte pointers. Yes, the pointers are larger, but the fraction of your program data used by pointers is so small, that any program will use an amount of memory not noticably larger than before. The hundreds of megs of RAM used by your browser and OpenOffice contain mostly your data (in really bloated format), in text, XML, ints, floats, or whatever.
Some people even go as far as to say that programs will run slower due to having to read 64-bit pointers from memory! Sure, it will take more time to load the pointers from memory. But considering the above point that pointers and longs comprise a very very small part of the program data, the effect, if any, would be unnoticeable. Furthermore, the x86_64 ABI allows passing function arguments in registers, completely bypassing memory accesses for a LOT of code, so 64-bit programs will run faster just because of that.
You're "knowledge" appears to come from nothing more than biases and stereotypes. You don't sound qualified or informed enough to operate anything more sophisticated than the buttons on a soda vending machine, much less make enterprise platform decisions.
I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
If you have the money for a 100+ machines beowulf cluster then you have money to hire a Linux certified consultant to work on it for you.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
What is wrong with 32-bit systems? I have 8 computers running here, only one of which is 64bit. They can all do word processing, compile programs, run a spreadsheet, surf the web, manage email, edit photographs......
Now please give me a sensible answer as to why I should want to upgrade any of them. Because of marketing hype? No. Because I cannot do something that you deem to be important? No, again. Because they cannot do it as fast as you think is necessary? No, for me and my users they are perfectly adequate and meet our needs perfectly. So please tell me why I should spend money to upgrade my computers.
Have a look at soylentnews.org for a different view
I'm too short
That's okay, I'll bet there are some girls who don't mind short cocks.
SHORT AND SWEET, capiche?
Don't yell, there's no need to be angry. I realize that your short cock probably makes you very defensive, but honestly, I'm not here to judge you. I'm sure your "sweet" nature makes up for your lack of massive manhood.
I spit out organic tree humpers like you on a daily basis, before breakfast
My apologies for assuming you were hetero. I think it's nice that you give morning head to whatever organic tree humper you brought home last night (or who took you home), but we all know "spitters are quitters". If you're going to bother, do it right and swallow.
keep this in mind before you slink back again for another beating
I may have misjudged you. You seem pretty kinky indeed, and if you truly do this on a "daily basis", you are a real slut as well. I salute you for not letting your short cock hold you back!
Well, that's what happens when you call consumer level support. They are for helping granny make that big E icon open to get to the interwebs. Now, if you have a problem with Windows 2008 Adv Server, it's a bit of a different story, but like getting REAL support for Linux, it's not free. Most companies don't have the time or money for some geeks to sit around spitballing on forums while their database server is offline. They usually pay someone to help when productivity is on the line.
I don't know why this sort of thing is such a topic. It's well-known people do not call support for their operating system for home systems. They usually bug a geek in the family, drag it down to microcenter/compusa/etc to have Windows reinstalled, or just buy another cheap computer. On a personal level, I've never known a single Win95/98/XP/Vista user who actually called Microsoft unless they needed a new activation code.
Anyway, the whole point of them pushing up the requirements for "Windows 7 Compatible" is to reduce the need for support to begin with. Look, I remember when Vista came around. I installed it on a once fancy AMD box with all the bells and whistles for 2005 and it ran like garbage. Now, I've got an i7 with all the current-day bells and whistles and have not had as much as one driver or compatibility issue while running 64 bit. Don't get me started on the lack of joy running Debian or Ubuntu desktops 64-bit. That'll head me down troll avenue as far as mods are concerned, but it's honestly more effort than joy regarding apps just working out of the box, or trying to run older 32-bit games without trouble. Usually if it isn't in the package tree, I just leave it alone at this point.
I'm getting more proffessional support for Liunux from the Linux community and from paid Linux proffessionals than you can get for Windows from anyone! ...and Linux proffessionals do not tell you that you are using wrong hardware or running the wrong kind of Linux.
Oh yes they will. I've seen more than one flip out over package management and break the company mold by putting their preferred distribution on a system to quickly solve a problem rather than spend the time carving up the currently installed distro to fit a need.
Think database servers and Redhat.
Amen to that. Every crazy Vista issue I've heard about in the last year or so is due to hardware vendors dumping garbage products into the market and not writing proper drivers.
Honestly, I shop for my Windows hardware the same I shop for Linux hardware. Get a list of potential parts, google their part numbers with common key words like "supported", "drivers", etc. Hit the manufacturers forums and look for patterns, and if there's something noteworthy, like "doesnt work on computers with more than 3GB of RAM", I take it off my list.
There's just too many hardware/software vendors out there who will slap an unauthorized "Vista Certified" sticker on the box of random trash to make money. In the end, responsibility of being a smart consumer lies with the end user. I know it sucks, but people are mean.
Microsoft allows OEMs to ship an OS CD if they want. They don't because of their costs.
Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
It always amuses me to no end how people scream about increased memory usage on x64. Most don't have any numbers to back up their claims, of course, but those that do point to 10-20% increase in RAM usage. So "OMG OMG OMG x64 is bloated! We can't possibly use a platform requiring 10% more RAM!" That, in spite of DDR3 RAM (the expensive kind) now costing ~$100 for 6G triple channel, where 10% more RAM would cost $10. But, naturally, we're in a recession, and you might need those $10 to make rent.
What makes it even funnier is that those same people adopt an entirely opposite attitude when I point out that their code is bloated. "Guys, look here, I wrote a library that reduces your app's memory footprint by a factor of 6! Check it out!" And they look at me contemptuously and reply: "what, are you some kind of an embedded freak? Grow up man, RAM is cheap! We'll stick with the standard, 'cause that's more portable and, you know, more standard." To each his own contradictions...
[1] You probably can store a code pointer in a long, because I think the program counter is still 32 bits.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
They just want to try to force OEMs to get with it and stop offering 32-bit processors.
Why does a computer user at home or in the typical office environment need a 64-bit CPU? People used to use computers with mere 8-bit CPUs running at less than 2 MHz. This will only increase energy consumption at a time when we are being asked or legislated into living a more environmentally-friendly lifestyle. Web browsing, email, instant messaging, photo editing, listening to audio (streaming or local), watching media (DVD or streaming) should nor require such outlandish processing power.
That exact issue, and another unrelated problem (Ubuntu loudly beeping instead of playing the proper alert sound) was the reason I dumped Linux on my laptop. The best I found is that it could kind of cope if you plugged in the monitor, then rebooted it-- I didn't find anyway of making it just work when you plugged the monitor in (or removed it) like every other OS does.
Comment of the year
READ the ARTICLE... This headline is misleading as all HELL. Time for a BURY BUTTON Slashdot!!
Dell does (at least, for all the machines I've bought from them.) That's why I buy Dell, or try to.
Comment of the year
its man! With a lower case m! Did you even RTFM newb! :P
Right now, maybe. But why not offer better designs if they're available? And no they don't use more power.
Audacity 2009 doesn't even come close to the year 2000's weakest Commercial Pro Audio offerings. And let's not get started on worknig functional audio drivers for plain audio, much less on very crucial low latency ones for monitoring in real time.
Your post doesn't make any sense. By Bill you mean Microsoft, and isn't Steve B. in charge now? And how is this abandoning their customers?
Anyway the way I see it, this is a good thing MS is doing.
When you purchase Windows you have no free support. You have to pay for it and it's not cheap. You can also buy support for Linux from Redhat and Suse, for example. The advantage for Linux is that there are alot of support groups that are absolutely free. If you have a problem, you post a question on a website. You can do this for Windows as well.
I use both Windows (Vista for the Laptop) and Linux (Ubuntu, Desktop).
I always find it interesting when the Windows camp gets all excited when they think they've found some reason to bash Linux. Usually it's something completely wrong, but they start buzzing like a stirred up bee's nest. I guess they have to feel good about paying so much money for their software. Linux and Windows are created and maintained by a bunch of enthusiastic programmers who are dedicated to what they do. The proprietary model and the open source model have their advantages. Get used to it. The website you are reading now runs on Linux.
There are a few scientists that need awesome math crunchers, but mostly, Microsoft needs huge memory models to contain their huge steaming pile of crap called Windows. After two decades of piling new code on top of old code until the operating system is piled high and deep, they need faster and larger machines because they have forgotten how to write rational tight code. I just don't see a product that is a million times better from Microsoft, now that the memory is a thousand times larger and the processor is a thousand times faster. I accept that we like graphic interfaces, but I remember clearly that when x86 based Unix needed to run X Window, the machine had to have 16MB of ram. Now we have machines with 16GB of ram, and I ask you, is the current Windows offering a thousand times more valuable then X Window system was back then. Not to my eyes it isn't. The processors are also orders of magnitude faster, but are the current versions of Windows significantly faster then the X Window system was back then. So just what is Microsoft doing that needs all these resources? It is hard to know since they do not disclose the source code. We do now what X and Unix was made of because they were open source and we can see exactly where the resources go.
[1] You probably can store a code pointer in a long, because I think the program counter is still 32 bits.
Nope...
From the info I've seen in Win XP x64's device manager, either drivers/devices can lock any memory range they like, or every device's memory range has to be below the 4GB line; because every device IS below the 4GB line.
You're "knowledge" appears to come from nothing more than biases and stereotypes. You don't sound qualified or informed enough to operate anything more sophisticated than the buttons on a soda vending machine, much less make enterprise platform decisions.
This only shows your level of ignorance. My experiences are the same as FireFury03's, in every point he made.
Linux is free. If you want support from a vendor, you pay for it. Fine. I can download Linux in any of a hundred different distros, each of which cater to a particular set of needs.
There are three Windows OS versions that are worth considering: XP, Vista, and Win7. Except for the period MS made Win7 available for download (and a self-destructive version at that), which of these can you download and use for free as long as you want, without Microsoft's lawyers having a conniption fit?
When politicians are involved, everyone loses.
I'm not trying to bait you here, but what point are you making? I am not aware of who FireFury03 is, since I didn't see him upstream of me (unless he posted AC).
My post was in response to his strident and ignorant assessment of Linux, particularly in the enterprise. His assertion that "businesses don't use Linux" is false by a large margin. His analysis of the costs involved doesn't agree with numbers I've seen, and his gratuitous swipe at Linux supporters was uncalled for. His position is essentially the same as many people I've met who don't know jack about Linux, have drank all the MS koolaid, and are threatened when someone wants to replace one of their Win boxes with something different.
I agree with your statement on Linux, and didn't mean to imply otherwise with my post.
I'm honestly not sure what you mean with your Windows statement. Windows isn't free, and I never implied that it was, or said that it should be. I don't have a problem with Windows per se, although I'm not a huge fan.
I notice you didn't include Windows Server 2008 in your "worth considering" list, and I wonder if we are both talking about server OSes rather than for home/desktop use.
I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.