Best Developer's Laptop?

s31523 writes "I love my current laptop, but unfortunately on my last trip the primary LCD went bonkers. It's an older Gateway (2 GB RAM Intel Pentium M 2.0 GHz, ATI M7). There are a handful of features I love about it: [1] Hot-swappable drive bay, with several components that can go in: CD/DVD R/W, extra battery, floppy drive, extra hard drive, memory card reader, etc. The extra battery option is especially appreciated — I can go 4-5 hours on battery power. [2] Docking station / port replicator: I like having my home setup with keyboard, network, and dual screens (a necessity). [3] It runs Linux. OK, I'm a wus, I actually have GRUB command three different OS's: Windows 98 (I have really old embedded software compilers that only run on 98, and yes I have tried every trick in the book to make them run on Linux), Windows XP Pro, and Ubuntu. I'm trying to find a replacement setup that offers the same flexibility and a little better performance. I am open to change as well. So, I ask Slashdot: What is your pick for best developer's laptop under $1,200, considering the features above?"

Comments

Multi booting?

[sakdoctor]

Who can be bothered with that.
Any new laptop is probably going to have a bunch of cores and hardware virtualization, so put ubuntu on that, and virtualize XP and 98.

Re:Multi booting?

[Shikaku]

Wine is making a lot of headway, but a neat helper program allows you to install things easily and with a pretty good GUI called http://www.playonlinux.com/en/

It uses scripts that has their own format to install Wine with a special setup that's taken care of by PlayOnLinux and the script. I think it's a great idea, and all that's needed is more scripts.

Re:Multi booting?

[NotQuiteReal]

Any new laptop is probably going to have a bunch of cores and hardware virtualization

I agree - using a virtual machine is nice, but be sure the CPU in your laptop supports it. Start by looking here and make sure. Virtual machines suck without hw support.

You'd be surprised how many mainstream laptop CPUs do NOT have virtualization support, especially many of the "Sunday Ad" bargain machines.

Re:Multi booting?

[93 Escort Wagon]

Who can be bothered with that.
Any new laptop is probably going to have a bunch of cores and hardware virtualization, so put ubuntu on that, and virtualize XP and 98.

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see that the submitter mentioned what type of development he's doing. If he's trying to do game development, virtualization may not be ideal for him. However for anything else I'd agree with you - except I'd personally choose a Mac as my "root kit" (as opposed to a rootkit I guess) and run VMware-based instances of Windows, Linux, et. al.

As an aside - anyone have experience with how well the EFI-enabled grub (or any other bootloader that can run on a modern Mac) works?

Re:Multi booting?

[Aphonia]

you're going to probably need to virtualize win 98 at this point anyway - i cant even get it to boot on my MSI K8MM-V + Sempron machine - you'll probably need to try something newer for it anyway.

VMWare works nicely for this as does virtualbox. Plus if seamless virtualization actually works on your host OS, its pretty smooth.

Re:Multi booting?

[Kjella]

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see that the submitter mentioned what type of development he's doing. If he's trying to do game development, virtualization may not be ideal for him.

If you're doing game development for Windows 98, I'd say you have much bigger problems...

Re:Multi booting?

[mrmeval]

If the laptop does not support virtualization how bad is it to run tight VNC on a machine that is running linux which can run several operating systems virtually?

Re:Multi booting?

[yuhong]

And also check the BIOS to make sure it can enable VT too.

Re:Multi booting?

[PhunkySchtuff]

So, instead of picking a machine that works, you pick a machine that doesn't have the features you need, and then run another machine, thereby using power, needing a fast network connection and has it's own set of issues. No thanks, I'd rather get a machine that has virtualisation support in the hardware. It'll be faster, cheaper and a better quality solution.

Re:Multi booting?

[limaxray]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe all AMD CPUs include virtualization extensions. I know my cheepie $400 AMD HP machine does and I do quite a bit of work in a virtualized XP instance without issue. The machine is certainly a commodity laptop, but it serves me very well for developing on the go (not that I'd ever actually recommend one to someone)

The stock 2GB of RAM can be a pain at times (but doable) so I'd suggest at least 4GB if you want a comfortable virtualized development environment.

Re:Multi booting?

[robbak]

That's right. Intel disables VT on some chips to artificially create different market segments. AMD doesn't play this particular game, and their VT equipment is usable on all their chips.

Re:Multi booting?

[Anonymous Coward]

He said its an embedded compiler, which means he may need hardware access for debug tools. That may be difficult to virtualize.

Re:Multi booting?

[pwizard2]

Virtualizing Windows 98 is an absolutely hateful experience on Virtualbox. Since Microsoft in their infinite wisdom failed to make the Windows 98 CD properly bootable, (my system lacks a floppy drive so I couldn't use a boot floppy) I had to use some pretty nasty tricks to boot into DOS to run the setup utility. None of the DOS boot floppy images I found online would work-- eventually I was able to do the installation by booting the Virtualbox Win98 VM with a DOS boot Cd I made years ago and switching out the discs real fast once DOS was running. Even after windows 98 was installed, it would not recognize any of Virtualbox's emulated hardware, so the system was barely functional. (no sound, 16 color 640x480, no ethernet support, etc.) Basically useless.

After that experience, I was in no mood to repeat the process with VMware, so I have no idea how well it handles Win98.

If you want Windows 98 to work well, you have to use Virtual PC. (Linux used to work well with Virtual PC but it hasn't the last few times I tried it)

Re:Multi booting?

[yuhong]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe all AMD CPUs include virtualization extensions.

As I remember, only Semprons do not have them, and then only the older ones.

Re:Multi booting?

[PyRoNeRd]

Well he's also running Windows XP so he might develop for that. And of course he could develop Linux games.

Re:Multi booting?

[Kumiorava]

I'm running Windows using Parallels on my Mac. I use the Windows side to do development for Windows Mobile, debugging on device works at least for my purposes. I guess with any laptop USB is the preferred way to have hardware access and that seems to work well. Serial ports are pretty rare these days.

Re:Multi booting?

[Aphonia]

strange. maybe you should try it on a newer version - vmware does it beautifully.

Re:Multi booting?

[Dare nMc]

Often having a light weight laptop, and remote accessing a server to do all the heavy lifting for you can be lower power consuming, and lighter weight on networking, and even more convenient. But I agree not usually. VNC really doesn't take a "fast" network, but a low latency quality network. IE I would still much rather have my debugging tools on my laptop, and live on wireless using remote access to a computer connected to the gigabit backbone. Then again my job requires pulling up CAD models and compiling/etc against remote librarys and files at another facility. So remoting into a computer at the other end saves a bunch of bandwidth (since I never have to look at every part of the model, just zooming into a small section each time.) I can also just break my connection at the laptop, while the PC is in the middle of a job, take my laptop with me without fear I will run out of battery/network connection and have to restart the compilation.

Re:Multi booting?

[Nefarious Wheel]

I guess with any laptop USB is the preferred way to have hardware access and that seems to work well. Serial ports are pretty rare these days.

Please forgive my pedantry, but "USB" stands for exactly...what?

Re:Multi booting?

[mirix]

486SX anyone? Some things never change.

Re:Multi booting?

[tokul]

Any new laptop is probably going to have a bunch of cores and hardware virtualization, so put ubuntu on that, and virtualize XP and 98.

Or have separate server for virtualizations and keep only virtual server console on your laptop with small and slow disk.

Re:Multi booting?

[shawse]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong

This is Slashdot. Someone will correct you whether you are wrong or not.

Re:Multi booting?

[uncqual]

It's just about enough to make me buy an AMD based system instead of an Intel based system as that saves that maddening 'this system looks good ... but oh, I need to go over to the Intel web site to figure out if it supports VT - wait, what was that processor number again" dance.

I hate Intel's artificial market segmentation. Reminds me of the 'good old days' [NOT] when you tried to figure out how to get a copy of the "fast" microcode for your mainframe rather than the "slow" one with the wait loops that you got because you bought a Model N instead of the (internally identical) Model N+1.

Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[Foofoobar]

All the Java developers at my work used Apple and I found this odd. When I asked one, they mentioned that it was built on BSD so they could use shell commands that they were used to on other Unix based systems. My wife had one and is a system administrator and found it very easy to VNC, SSH and manage most of her servers from her Macbook Pro.

I gave it a shot and have been able to do Objective C, Mono development, LAMP dev and just about everything without any problems. There effectively is not any language or environment that is left out and Eclipse and Subversion work as great as they do on my Linux box.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[mysidia]

Windows '98 will run in a virtual machine, under e.g. VMware fusion.

Getting sound to work may be an issue, but otherwise, it works alright, and the performance on modern hardware is excellent.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[Foofoobar]

Yes. That was my bitch once I picked up the apple as a laptop. Apple really seems to hate Java; they dropped the java bridge for Cocoa (but left it for all other languages including Ruby), they maintain the JVM separate and don't update it or patch it as they need to and many other issues. Yeah I have to say it seems like Apple hates Java.

However you can always install alternative JVM's

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[camperslo]

Win 98 also runs fine in VirtualBox, OSS free for personal use from Sun.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[binarylarry]

From jaunty:

$ java -version
Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 1.6.0_16-b01)

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[binarylarry]

I think it's two parts:

1) Apple is now really gunning for Microsoft and cross platform apps don't really fit well in their plans
2) The built in Java aesthetics (Swing) are fucking horrible and they probably don't want that on their machines.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[ThousandStars]

See also this post on the same subject WRT Macs.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[Foofoobar]

Right and both are points that can be argued against:
1) Write once, deploy everywhere is a concept that game developers (and all other software developers) would LOVE especially once their products have to be deployed on multiple platforms. The ignorance of forcing people to your platforms language (or version of C) is arrogance and ignorance that has shown not to succeed unless you have a monopoly.

2) Swing does look crappy on Apple but thats why they had the Cocoa Bridge for java... and thats why they killed the Cocoa bridge. Because they didn't want people programming and deploying in Java. They make it as hard as possible for your java apps to fit into the Apple model as possible.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[csnydermvpsoft]

Eclipse and Subversion work as great as they do on my Linux box.

i.e., like shit?

(not trolling - I just had to struggle with the Eclipse update manager a couple of times recently - I really like Eclipse when it works)

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[Foofoobar]

Untrue. Game developers now work on Mac (10% of the market, 15-20% of home and school markets), iPhone/iPod and Windows. Warcraft is Developed on Windows and Mac and they even have an internal version that works on Linux but Blizzard has publicly stated they won't release because they dont believe there is much of a market.

Aside from that, while most people like to use games as an example, they are not the main reason to be cross platform in your development. Offices, schools and governments often need to deploy software that will run on all platforms and don't want to try to cobble together a solution to run on all three. Their purchasing decision will take into consideration all their users and whatever is cross platform prior to having to purchase additional licenses and antivirus to run VNC (which raises software costs and support costs even further).

And while you think you don't run that much Java, you'd be surprised how much you actually have running in the background at times and what software has Java frontends with C backends or vice versa (like Eclipse for example).

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[rawg]

I love mine, and the 6 hour battery life can just about get me through the whole work day without wires.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[Terrasque]

I tried using osx for coding a while back, but stumbled into a rather big problem for me. Keyboard shortcuts. I'm using a lot of shortcuts, like ctrl+arrow to move between words, home/end to jump to beginning and end of line, and so on.

However, the standard shortcuts on osx are completely different, and I never got used to them. I also couldn't find a way to change the shortcuts to what I was used to. I tried for almost half a year, but I couldn't get accustomed to the new shortcuts, and I didn't find a way to change them to my liking.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[robbak]

Another point that is worth noting is that Sun makes getting a license to distribute your build of java a real pain. The hoops the FreeBSD foundation has to jump through to get a binary released means that they are always behind. So many of us use the binary release (diablo) to bootstrap a build from source to get an up-to-date java.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[sunderland56]

Sounds great - except for the "under $1200" requirement. Haven't you been watching recent Microsoft ads on TV??

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[Eskarel]

Apple isn't gunning for Microsoft, simply because they can't without losing money.

This isn't because they're software or hardware is inferior, it's not. However, they're primary business is hardware, and they're very dependent on their current profit margins. To take out Microsoft, Apple would have to turn their PC's into a commodity item the same way IBM did, and from the evidence of the few times they've tried this, they just end up being undercut by third parties(just like IBM was). To beat Microsoft they'd have to stop making any money, which isn't really an apple thing to do.

They are certainly going for the "Macs are cool, PC's are dull" angle, and they're going even harder than they used to, but that's always been a part of their overall strategy(coolness sells macs), and won't ever get them above at most a 20% market share.

Apple makes the most money by sitting exactly where they are, certainly if Microsoft created a product which was a threat to their market niche, or to the iPod or iPhone they'd go after them ruthlessly, but the Zune doesn't come close, and Windows Mobile while probably better than the iPhone for general purposes, just like Android has no real brand identity. Neither of these are a threat to apple's profit margins.

That's not to say that apple wouldn't take any market share they can grab, but PC's and laptops which are on average $500-1000 dearer than their PC competitors just aren't ever going to be broad market winners, and most of that $500-1000 is pure apple profit.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[hotfireball]

Actually, I hate Eclipse on everywhere (mac, Linux whatever). Use NetBeans -- that one work fine even on Solaris. :-)

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[iocat]

Can a mac laptop drive multiple monitors? I believe that was also a requirement.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[hotfireball]

Actually no. They killed Cocoa bridge, because just nobody (smart) used it. And who the idiot is gonna use Cocoa bridge and thus tight up to only one platform, using cross-platform solution?

If you want swing look good on Apple OSX, use http://code.google.com/p/macwidgets/ (I do, looks OK although not perfect yet)

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[hotfireball]

1. Not true. Apple is not any gunning at M$ as they have zero enterprise software. All their glamour is on home desktop only.
2. Not true. Java Swing is not any horrible (e.g. http://code.google.com/p/macwidgets/). Swing is just a plain canvas, on which you can paint anything you want in any way you want.

In fact, SWT (on which Eclipse is built on) is much more horrific, because it is not customizable much, it is Carbon and looks like an alien within OSX. It is an alien even in Linux in some cases (e.g. those fugly round tabs that you can turn off and get even more fugly squared tabs), while Swing has GTK rendering and yields to Gnome current theming.

And Swing is faster, e.g. Jake (port of Quake-2) works FASTER than original C++ version. :-)

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[Neil Jansen]

Yes, and it works great out of the box. I have an Apple 24" LED Cinema Display as my second monitor at 1920x1200. Not only does it work great under OSX, it also works when dual-booting to Windows 7 or other recent Microsoft OS.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[Hatta]

It runs, but it lacks the guest additions. So it's not quite "fine". The emulated video is really pretty slow, making it a pain to use GUIs.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[Neil Jansen]

I ran into the same problem. Basically the answer is "PCs are keyboard-driven, Macs are primarily mouse-driven." I did find a few hacks that should get the home/end keys working, but with all the kernel panics and problems I've had with Snow Leopard so far, I decided not to push my luck.

http://heisencoder.net/2008/04/fixing-up-mac-key-bindings-for-windows.html
http://heisencoder.net/2008/05/fixing-home-and-end-keys-on-firefox-3.html

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[Philotomy]

When I switched to OS X, I found myself more at home with keyboard shortcuts because the standard OS X GUI controls use keyboard shortcuts that are similar to emacs: ctrl-a for beginning of line, ctrl-e for end of line, et cetera. I guess it's just what you get used to, but it sure felt "right" to me.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[Philotomy]

I'm using a MacBook Pro to drive a Samsung SyncMaster 2333 at 1920 x 1080 as my main display while using the laptop's 17" screen at 1680 x 1050 as a secondary. With a bluetooth mouse and keyboard this works out pretty well.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[siddesu]

There are workarounds for this on the virtualbox site (see the faq). With them 98 works more or less okay.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[RocketRabbit]

From 10.6.1:

bash-3.2$ java -version
java version "1.6.0_15"
Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 1.6.0_15-b03-219)
Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM (build 14.1-b02-90, mixed mode)

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[Ironpoint]

Unix command line utilities are available have been available for Windows machines as well through cygwin for the last decade. Java development on a Mac has some oddities not shared with Windows/Linux/Solaris due to their development environment being supplied by Apple.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[tepples]

Write once, deploy everywhere is great in theory but in practice it's rarely very smooth. And once you start using the cocoa bridge, you're not really writing a cross-platform app anymore.

Think model-view-controller. Every application is conceptually split into a back-end or model, which directly manipulates the application's data, and a front-end or view, which presents this model to the user. If your back-end is in Java or another JVM language, you probably also want a front-end running in the JVM. The idea was that one would make a generic Java back-end, a Swing front-end, and optional front-ends for other platforms: MIDP for phone users, Cocoa Bridge for Mac users, etc. "Write once, run everywhere" doesn't ensure that your front-end will fit in perfectly with other front-ends on the same platform, but new platforms can at least use the existing Swing front-end.

The problem for MVC is when each platform insists on a particular kind of object code for both the front-end and the back-end, and there isn't a single language for implementing even the back-end that compiles to all platforms' object code. For example, if you're the user of a computer but not an administrator, you can't install x86 bytecode on a PC; instead, you have to use apps written in ActionScript bytecode (that is, Flash) or JVM bytecode (that is, Java applets). Or if you're coding for Xbox 360, you can't use its native PowerPC bytecode unless you're a sufficiently large company; instead, you must use the CLR-based XNA framework. So what language compiles to x86, ARM, ActionScript bytecode, CLR bytecode, and JVM bytecode?

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[tepples]

They killed Cocoa bridge, because just nobody (smart) used it. And who the idiot is gonna use Cocoa bridge and thus tight up to only one platform, using cross-platform solution?

Anyone who realizes that a Cocoa Bridge front-end and a Swing front-end can hit the same back-end. Please see my other post.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[CynicTheHedgehog]

I have an Apple MacBook I use as my primary PC at home, and I love Apple products, but Java on Mac OS X sucks. It's slow, always at least 2 years behind the current version, and the Cocoa LAF make Swing apps look terrible.

I bought my MacBook with the intention of making it my primary development laptop (for school--we used a lot of esoteric languages and libraries), but I found Java next to unusable. I use Ubuntu at work on a Dell D830 and the the difference is night and day in terms of performance (same system specs). My next laptop will probably be some commodity Intel machine with Linux with lots of cores, RAM, etc.

(I will say this, though, the only laptop I've used with a decent trackpad and sleep/resume is a MacBook, so if those things are important to you, you might want to consider one.)

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[MogNuts]

Because you know exactly how Apple works and you're privy to top-level business strategy that tells you they make their money on hardware, or that they're a hardware company. Please, enough /. armchair quarterbacks.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[MogNuts]

What part of, "must cost $1,200," don't you understand?

And Macs are *way* overpriced, are identical in hardware, give you less hardware for the money, and more importantly just don't fit into his parameters/requirements.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[Hatta]

Yeah, I've read it and tried the VBEMP video drivers. It still sucked. I get full color, and resolution, but the redraw time when I move a window or open a menu is really bad. Does the Scitech Display Doctor driver work any better?

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[EvilTwinSkippy]

Ok... we just bought a macbook for our new developer. And, with all the fixings it came out to $1159.

Kindly STFU.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[EvilTwinSkippy]

Nothing personal against you, but I've been programming since the age of 10, I've held the title of "Senior Network Engineer" at a research institution for 11 years. And right now I design simulations for the DOD out of bare metal, C, and Tcl/Tk.

And I use a Mac. And in fact, everyone I know who knows what the hell they are doing uses one too.

STFU. Please.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[Neil Jansen]

Turn down the hostility a notch, dude, I was just answering iocat's question. Visit another Slashdot thread or two, there's this thing called topic drift, you know?

And I laugh at your second statement, since I'm still waiting on a Thinkpad or Dell machined from a solid block of Aluminum, synaptics touchpad with gesture support, illuminated keyboard, a power adapter equal or better to the MagJack, LED backlighting, decent battery life WITHOUT a drive bay (yes, to me a swappable drive bay is a dis-feature), lithium polymer batteries rather than lithium ion for better power density to weight ratio, and oh yea, the absence of a Microsoft operating system for something you know, more UNIX-y. There are laptops from Dell and Lenovo that have some of the features above, but not one that comes close to having all of them.

Personally I love how computer geeks on Slashdot will argue over spending a few hundred extra dollars for something THEY SIT IN FRONT OF ALL DAY, EVERY DAY. I wouldn't buy a $500 car if I drove 1000 miles a week. In the end you get what you pay for. A $300 netbook will not get you very far, ask me how I know.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[Eskarel]

Well, they've made macs generic twice before. Every time they've been undercut by other manufacturers and stopped it. That doesn't take an armchair quarterback to work out.

They still don't allow you to install OSX on non Mac hardware, which implies they're more interested in selling the hardware than the software licenses. Their top selling products are all hardware, and to the best of my knowledge they haven't released a single one of their for cost software products on another hardware platform or OS.

If they're anything other than a hardware company, they're doing it wrong. They've shown a number of times that they can't sell their hardware cheaper than third parties can produce it.

It doesn't take a genius to work out that Apple is unlikely to gain majority market share while their hardware is noticeably more expensive than comparable alternatives. It doesn't take an armchair quarterback to see that based on past performance Apple cannot produce their hardware at commodity prices and still make money. It also doesn't take a genius to work out that macs are cool isn't an advertising campaign designed to grab huge amounts of market share.

I know the fan boys always want to believe that Apple is someday going to wipe out Microsoft, it's fairly clear to anyone watching closely that without a major restructure of the company that Apple is most likely incapable of doing this without losing money. It's also clear that since Apple is a very profitable company as is that they're unlikely to be motivated to make that kind of change.

None of this has anything to do with how good or bad Apple software or hardware is, I merely state that it's unlikely that a company who is doing very successfully with their current business model is likely to change that business model substantially, particularly to one which they've tried before unsuccessfully.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[MogNuts]

There was no hostility present. Though it does bug me so much lately how foolish people can be, and how easily they are brainwashed by marketing.

And to refute some points:

Solid block of aluminum: useless to a computer
Synaptics touchpad: use a thinkpad trackpoint, and get back to me.
Illuminated keyboard: most if not all laptops have this option
Power adapter: I have not once, in the entire 10 years of using laptops, have carelessly ripped out a power cord
*Decent battery life*: except that it was actually tested recently, and Macs *don't* get more than 3-4 hours (the new ones, with a promised 7-8 hour charge);
get yourself a nice battery (see with PC's you have an option) that could last you 8-10 hours.
Swappable drive bay DIS-feature: are you one of those same fanboys that defended Apple's decision not to have cut and past on the IPhone (only for them to put it in because it actually WAS useful)?
Lithium polymer batteries: again, worthless since macs don't get the 7 hour charge they promise. Though with PCs you can.
Absence of a MS OS: that is someone's preference. But by your logic, then Apple should just remove boot camp because of the ULTIMATE SUPERIORITY OF THE OSX SYSTEM

And your analogy fails, because a Mac is not a better car. It provides less. A better analogy would be, take a Ford Focus, slap some fancy paint and leather seats in it, and charge $90,000... OR spend $68,000 on a BMW 550i. The choice is easy.

And netbooks aren't even in the same category. In that case, a Macbook Pro isn't in the same league as a brand new Core i7 desktop with 12GB RAM and a Intel SSD.

Don't buy the FUD /.'ers.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[Reaperducer]

Nothing against Macs. But their target group is the user who does not know shit about computers, and also does not want to.

You've obviously never been to a real developers conference and seen the exploding number of Macs in the audiences of the lectures and meetings.

Hate to wake you from 1993, but the real hard-core professional developers are all buying Macs, and not because they like free stickers.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[TheStonepedo]

6 hours is just about the whole work day? Are you accepting applications?

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[ahabswhale]

I've used Eclipse on the Mac, Linux, and Windows (various flavors) and it's shit on all of them. The only reason I use it is because the companies I work at force it down your throat.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[Foofoobar]

Yeah, think it says in the doc notes 'not for retards' so that sort of explains your problem there.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[ahabswhale]

I'm a retard because Eclipse sucks? Interesting. With that kind of logic, I'd hate to see your code.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[siddesu]

With Scitech Doctor windows move around normally, games play okay, both in windowed and in fullscreen mode.

Of course, I have only tried two or three - Larry, DukeNukem and LHX, if those mean something to you, but FWIW, worked fine.

I run it on Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU T7250 @ 2.00GHz, the virtual machine is 500MB RAM and the default video RAM size that virtbox provides.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[Foofoobar]

Ah I see, your retardation has made it so you think that the warning that says 'not for retards' means that this somehow means that it sucks rather than anyone but a retard can understand it and how to install it. Of course this is understandable since you are a retard. Being slow is in your nature. How's that Visual Basic treating you?

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[binarylarry]

Languages don't compile. Compilers compile languages.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[ahabswhale]

VB is treating me ok, but your mother is treating me much much better! Oh and she wanted me to pass along a message...Eclipse is for amateur developers who don't know what a real IDE is supposed to be like.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[Foofoobar]

Ah the response of a true retard. A love of VB and a 'yo momma joke'. No wonder you couldn't install Eclipse. I'm amazed you can even boot into your Windows box.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[ahabswhale]

Yes, as I type this on my Mac I wonder about the sad state of education when simple reading comprehension is lost since I've never indicated ever having a problem installing the giant turd that is Eclipse.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[sonamchauhan]

Well, .NET and Windows development in general is excluded, no?

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[10Ghz]

1. Not true. Apple is not any gunning at M$ as they have zero enterprise software. All their glamour is on home desktop only.

From Wikipedia:

"From the early 2000s, Final Cut Pro developed a large and expanding user base including many independent filmmakers. It has made inroads with film and television editors who traditionally use Avid Technology's Media Composer. According to a 2007 SCRI study, Final Cut made up 49% of the US professional editing market, with Avid at 22%."

Logic is also very popular among musicians, large share of Photoshop-users use the software on a Mac, Macs are very popular among professional photographers, large part of graphics design is done on Macs... Yeah, home desktops only.

Pray tell: what exactly is this "enterprise software" that is missing on a Mac?

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[10Ghz]

There was no hostility present. Though it does bug me so much lately how foolish people can be, and how easily they are brainwashed by marketing.

And to refute some points:

Solid block of aluminum: useless to a computer

It's "useless" to have a sturdy computer? Um, OK....

Synaptics touchpad: use a thinkpad trackpoint, and get back to me.

Does not support gestures: fail

Illuminated keyboard: most if not all laptops have this option

Show me one, because I have never seen a PC-laptop with a backlit keyboard. I think Thinkpads have the "thinklight" at the top of the screen, but even there the keyboard is not backlit.

Power adapter: I have not once, in the entire 10 years of using laptops, have carelessly ripped out a power cord

I look over about 40 laptops, and in the last 1.5 years I have had at least two cases where the laptop has been broken because someone tripped on a powercord. And how is a standard powerplug better than magsafe? Isn't magsafe a nice thing to have in any case?

*Decent battery life*: except that it was actually tested recently, and Macs *don't* get more than 3-4 hours (the new ones, with a promised 7-8 hour charge);

Well, Anandtech said "The Best Battery Life Iâ(TM)ve Ever Seen" when testing the new MBP's: here

get yourself a nice battery (see with PC's you have an option) that could last you 8-10 hours.

And have a heavy laptop with a bulging battery. Sounds like fun!

Lithium polymer batteries: again, worthless since macs don't get the 7 hour charge they promise. Though with PCs you can.

In the Anandtech-test, they got over eight hours in real-life use....

Please don't waste any more time spreading bullshit, OK? You only make yourself look like a drooling retard.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[10Ghz]

I ran into the same problem. Basically the answer is "PCs are keyboard-driven, Macs are primarily mouse-driven."

I have always though the opposite. Now, I'm not all that good with keyboard-shortcuts, but there seems to be plenty of those in the Mac and you can do a lot with them.

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1343

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[MogNuts]

Ever use a ThinkPad? Nice and sturdy. There are PC options. So for that one, you fail.

Gestures are great. Trackpoints are better. But if for whatever reason you enjoy using it, PC manufactures do offer the software. Fail again.

Backlit keyboard. Dell Studio 15. Took me all of about 30 seconds to find it. Rough man. Fail.

MagSafe: won't argue its nice to have, but not a necessity. 2 cases out of 40 as you yourself said. And again, maybe those people shouldn't have carelessly ripped out the cord on a hundreds/thousand something piece of company property.

Battery life. I'm not even wasting any more time going to check out your article, because obviously you are hell-bent on having sex with Apple computers. Any /. should really check out that Anandtech article then. But I have seen many reviews that only show 3-4 hours, and no I'm not going to spend any more time to find them, they're easy enough to Google, because arguing with a fanboy just doesn't work.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[10Ghz]

Ever use a ThinkPad?

I'm typing this on a Thinkpad T61.

Nice and sturdy.

Not as sturdy as my MBP back home.

So for that one, you fail.

Nope

Gestures are great. Trackpoints are better.

Some people like trackpoints, other do not. And trackpoints dont support gestures.

But if for whatever reason you enjoy using it, PC manufactures do offer the software. Fail again.

Show me as extensive use of gestures as Apple offers in latest MacBooks.

Backlit keyboard. Dell Studio 15. Took me all of about 30 seconds to find it. Rough man. Fail.

at least Dell.com didn't let me configure a Studio 15 with backlit keyboard. And is that the only PC-laptop with backlit keyboard?

MagSafe: won't argue its nice to have, but not a necessity. 2 cases out of 40 as you yourself said.

2 cases where the laptop broke down and had to be replaced. With Magsafe, there would have been zero such cases. And replacing those computers cost quite a bit of money in lost productivity.

Battery life. I'm not even wasting any more time going to check out your article, because obviously you are hell-bent on having sex with Apple computers.

I take that as an admission of defeat. When you are presented with facts, you just take your ball and go home.

And no, I have no desire to have sex with a computer, Apple or otherwise. Calling your BS BS does not mean that I have sexual fetishes about computer hardware.

arguing with a fanboy just doesn't work.

What makes me a "fanboy" while you are not? You seem to spend a lot of time bashing Macs while telling about the virtues of PC's. You seem as much as "fanboy" to me as some Mac-zealot is.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[crashumbc]

used? second hand with 12 inch screen maybe...

those called "netbooks" and dell sells them for 299$

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[Foofoobar]

Well I doubt many people expect reading comprehension amongst retards to be high especially when the original author wrote that they had problems with Eclipse on Mac, Linux and Windows and the retort was to imply that they just could not install correctly because they were retarded.

Maybe you could get someone at your special school to help explain this all to you. Perhaps the bus driver on your short bus.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[Foofoobar]

How is this specific to MVC or Java? What does this have to do with anything? Are you under the incorrect assumption that Java frameworks use bytecode to render their view? Are you confusing client side and server side code?

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[tepples]

How is this specific to MVC or Java? What does this have to do with anything?

I was pointing out a limitation of MVC. Sharing the model between different views works when you can swap out a Swing view for a Cocoa Bridge view, but it doesn't work between a platform that does support Java and a platform that does not.

Are you confusing client side and server side code?

Efficient client-server apps have some model code on the client, even if all changes are revalidated at the server.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[Foofoobar]

Well you seem to be implying a client-server architecture in which client side code cannot be implemented because java is not supported. Well over 90% of systems support Java; more than support .NET according to recent stats. So I doubt that is a problem to uptake of an application. But if that's your only excuse, it is a feeble one.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[alexandre_ganso]

Yes, and it works well. It remembers each monitor's settings you plug into. So, I have a 1920x1080 22" in my bedroom, placed to the left of the computer and slightly below, a 37" 1920x1080 placed to the right of the computer, a 1600x1200 with menu bars on it in my office, and a 800x600 projector as second screen. I just plug, and it remembers each of them, no need to fiddle with settings every time (as I need with windows 7).

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[Allador]

Where do you plug the second external monitor into?

I dont recall that I've ever seen a Mac with a dual-density (or whatever it's called this year) dvi port on the laptop chassis.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[Samurai Crow]

Well, .NET and Windows development in general is excluded, no?

Not if you use boot camp or Parallels. You can even use Mono if you want to use .NET on a Mac.

Re:Why I chose Apple for my dev laptop

[jameslore]

Used to be true. Not recently though.

On Snow Leopard: 1.6.0_15
Currently in testing: 1.6.0_17

For my part, I've been using my Mac for enterprise development for about 18 months now. Slow as Apple used to be at providing JVM updates, they still move faster than most enterprise deployments (where tested stability > version number). Not that this is any defence of their previous abyssmal record at JVM updates.

Thinkpad T-series

[toppavak]

You can easily get one that will fit your budget of $1,200. The ultrabay drive is hot-swappable and you can get a Li-polymer battery to slide in there for extra staying power. Also, Lenovo has kept Thinkpad customer service to essentially the same level of quality that it was under IBM which, in my experience, has been nothing short of fantastic.

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[tuffy]

ThinkPads also sport a 3-button trackpoint, which is very handy when running X11. In addition, it's not hard to find ones with compatible video and wireless cards.

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[swanriversean]

I use a Thinkpad X61 and it is fantastic (Ubuntu + virtualized XP).
(Previously I had a T43p which was also good.)
For your price requirements and the fact that you like the second battery, I would definitely go with a T series.
It is not just the customer service that is good, the quality is top notch. I've dropped both laptops on tile floors (the T43p twice) with the worst result being a bit of chipped plastic through which you could see the METAL body on the T43p.
Docking station is superb as well (I used it for both, but it is especially great with the X61).

I have also recommended the SL series to some family, but don't have personal experience with it.

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[bhtooefr]

OK, if you want to remove the extra software, go into the factory restore software, and uncheck all of the checkboxes.

The way Lenovo's software works is, it goes through three passes - it installs an image of a clean OS with all packages in a directory, then reboots, installs the drivers, reboots again, then installs the desired packages, then runs sysprep and reboots again.

As for the "pressing on the bottom right corner of the machine" thing... are you resting your finger on the TrackPoint? I've never heard of that problem before, and I bet it's coincidental that you're going for the bottom right corner. Don't rest your finger on it, and if you do, give it 3 seconds to re-center.

The docking stations... ok, I'll give you weird crashes caused by some of them.

And, yes, the actual plastic on ThinkPads of late is incredibly cheap, but the chassis is magnesium, just like the plastic MacBooks, and the only plastic on a non-R-series is the LCD bezel, the keyboard bezel, and the palmrest.

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[bemymonkey]

My experience regarding the customer service has been largely the same (although my Thinkpad is a cheap SL500 consumer series model), but for the price, I'm relatively satisfied with the hardware. The casing is feels cheap, the keyboard flexes a little, and there were a few internal mechanical problems (mainly cables not placed in the proper channels causing PCB stress+flex, and other stuff like that) that I had to fix myself before deciding to keep the machine, but in terms of build quality and important features (decent keyboard, awesome pointing device, wsxga+ on a 15.4" TFT) it's still better than anything else I've found at this price point ($800)...

Never having seen a modern T-, W- or R-Series model myself (I've only used older ones like the T4x and T60/61) I can't offer an opinion regarding those, but just extrapolating from my experiences with the SL500 (which is, as I mentioned above, the cheapest entry-level Thinkpad line - not even considered a real Thinkpad by most long-time Thinkpad users), I'd expect them to be better than other devices in their price range in terms of durability and input options.

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[Anonymous Coward]

Just picked up a Thinkpad T400 and it is nothing short of amazing. Advantages over the macbooks:

* Matte screen w/ WXGA+ LED backlight (new Macbook Pros are all glossy)
* Extremely easy to swap out or replace hardware (new macs have improved this, but not as easy)
* Price (I used the Lenovo IBMEPP site + E-coupons) literally saved over $1100.00 off reg price! (payed ~ $1350.00 loaded)
* Thinkpad keyboard - still one of the best in the world IMHO
* Good Linux or BSD hardware support
* Easy to dual-boot (if necessary) or you could run VM software
* Excellent battery time (i'm using a 6-cell battery) with a script to extend Linux battery life

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[Drakin020]

I hope that's something new, because I've had terrible experience with Lenovo laptops. I loved it when it was IBM but since then, it's been terrible.

We had about 6 Lenovo T-60 Laptops, and they had this bug where if you removed the power cord, or connected it, or docked/undocked, the keyboard and mouse would just stop working. This would force you to hold down the power button.

We had this issue, and tried to send it into Lenovo 6 times. Each time they assured us that they would fix the issue, but all that happened was them replacing the keyboard or some BS thing.

Then they told us we needed to order some rubber boots for the docking station. After all that trouble, we got rid of the T-60's and purchase Dell now.

I had nothing but terrible experience with Lenovo support, and the T-60 series. They were first gen, so I'll give it that it most likely had bugs, but they still should have taken care of the issue.

As for the X series, we had no problems.

Just a word of caution....

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[Natasha]

I think the reason I've loved all the T series laptops I've had is the ease of maintenance. Between the support from IBM/Lenovo and the availability of Maintenance Manuals, it been great. On my previous T30, when I broke the keyboard (after the end of the warranty) I was able to get instructions on how to remove it and what part number I needed to reorder. And the fact that IBM has a parts site to make it easy to get replacements.

So long as Lenovo keeps those available, I'll keep considering the Thinkpad lines.

The hot swap on the new one was nice too when the DVD drive died. The sent me a new one and it was a quick swap out and back in business. Didn't even have to worry about whether there was going to be an argument about whether I needed to send the entire thing in to be repaired.

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[jeffstar]

I'm on my second R series. The first one was an R51 and lasted over 2 years on the road and lots of days on construction sites or in oily dusty industrial settings. The LCD started to get vertical lines on it which were multiplying. I always used to pick it up by the LCD though. It is still going strong (nearly 4 years old now) with an external monitor and ubuntu.

I'm on an R61 now and I think it is pretty solid as well. Runs ubuntu great.

I agree with another poster though that the software lenovo loads on with the default XP install absolutely cripples it. what the f are they thinking?

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[nametaken]

Absolutely agree.

Lenovo can't be beat for price:quality, and service has been fantastic for me as well. So much so that I have switched to Lenovo for all company laptops. I believe customer service calls are taken out of Atlanta (instead of New Delhi). I don't have time for communication barriers, crappy build quality, tech support people with little or no authority to solve your problems, etc. I'll spend a couple extra dollars up front. It's kinda like the "buy a mac" mentality, but sticking with PC's.

You might get a little bit faster processor for your dollar in some craptacular $432 HP special, but you're going to get the cheap ass components (which are not all the same), and when (not if) you call their tech support they're going to treat you like shit.

My last two professional run-ins with HP involved being called a thief for wanting a replacement hard drive bay cover (they returned a laptop without one after repair), and being told there were no fixes planned for a non-functional wifi chipset. A firmware fix did come... 1 year later. Guess how pleased the boss was about that purchase. Numerous BBB complaints later, and having called the HP corporate campus in the middle of the night to social engineer my way to a higher-up's VM box and I've decided I will never purchase from them again.

Maybe. MAYBE I'll buy another HP server, but that's about it.

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[zippthorne]

Glossy v. Matte is not a definitive advantage either way, IMO.

Glossy has some very interesting advantages offsetting the reflection problem. Reduced glare for one, which lets glossy screens have darker blacks. They also are easier to clean, although they are quicker to show the need.

I have a Macbook and an old Toshiba with a matte screen, and the screen on the macbook is much more useful when, say, outdoors as long as I don't have the sun directly at my back and I don't wear a bright shirt.

If I were looking at a new notebook, I wouldn't rule one out off the bat just because of the screen. They simply require different habits and have different advantages. For me, the change was not onerous, so I would definitely recommend actually trying out the two screen types for a little while first. That goes for Macs or PCs with glossy screens.

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[adolf]

Hrm. I'm still on my first Dell Inspiron 6000. Got it about 4.5 years ago. It's a daily-use, on the road, 8 to 12-hour-per-day machine, and has spent its time outside in the elements (from freezing drizzle to baking sun, -15F to +110F), in smoke-filled plastics factories, and so on.

The hard drive died after I used it most days one particularly cold winter outside aiming cameras on top of a ladder, with a lot of back-and-forth between cold and warm, but that was reasonable enough. The display hinges need their screws tightened periodically, but that's easy enough too (and something that Dell has fixed on later models).

Haven't had much of an issue with the 15" WUXGA+ LCD. And even though the whole thing should be completely worn out by now, it's still a nice enough machine that I'm in no particularly great hurry to get rid of it.

(I'm not exactly sure how this fits into the context of finding a new laptop, but it is what it is . . .)

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[honkycat]

* Matte screen w/ WXGA+ LED backlight (new Macbook Pros are all glossy)

Not any more. Matte is available on 15" and 17" at this point.

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[MrCrassic]

I LOVED the R series when I had one! The R40 was a fantastic computer...in fact, I might get another one for my media center! It was fast, pretty light and pretty well built for a consumer PC. Also supported Linux really, really well. The screen was a little crap, but at that price point, would you care?

Heck, I'd say that if you aren't into the latest and greatest, pick one of these up for yourself. Last time I bought a R41, it was something like $200. Or get it as a backup. Great machine!

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[nebby]

My T500's wifi doesn't work in Ubuntu if I want to use the latest server kernel with 4GB RAM. I had no patience so I just bought a pcmcia card (time is money) -- YMMV.

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[reacocard]

Depends on the kernel you're running, newer ones (2.6.30, at least) handle the hotswapping on my t61 just fine. I did have the exact same problem under older kernels however.

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[Sir_Lewk]

I once slipped on an icy stree and dropped my T60p several feet onto a steel manhole cover. Barely a scratch.

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[shutdown -p now]

+1 for ThinkPads, though I'm not sure what you get for the price specified in TFS. I paid a fair bit more for a custom-built T61p (a large part of that is likely because of the 1920x1200 screen), but I don't have any complaints whatsoever about sturdiness, convenience, performance, extensibility, or OS compatibility - it survived Vista, and now dual-boots Win7 and Jaunty, with both working without a hitch.

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[Count Fenring]

I'm a big Thinkpad fan from olden times, but it IS possible to get a matte screen on the Macbook Pros (except the 13 inch) for about $50 extra.

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[Proudrooster]

I agree, the new glossy screens are horrible. There are a couple of other reasons to pick the Thinkpad as well. The keyboard layout (including the back/forward) buttons located about the cursor keys, and of course the THINKLIGHT. Comparing the my T-Series to my work provided HP-Compaq, the Thinkpad wins out everytime. I miss the trackpoint the most.

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[BikeHelmet]

I have a Macbook and an old Toshiba with a matte screen, and the screen on the macbook is much more useful when, say, outdoors as long as I don't have the sun directly at my back and I don't wear a bright shirt.

I have a Samsung LCD monitor with a matte screen, and it works wonderously in direct sunlight. I use it outdoors(on the patio) all the time.

In my experience, matte always trumps glossy for outdoors - but new also trumps old, which was a factor in your experience.

In this case the guy is a developer, and likely isn't watching movies or looking at pictures on it. I'd say go for matte if possible.

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[Hurricane78]

* Thinkpad keyboard — still one of the best laptop keyboard in the world IMHO

There fixed that for ya. But it's like being the best or something that in generally considered to be trash. ;)

The best keyboard in the world, no strings attached? That would be... the DataHand Pro II.

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[Hurricane78]

So you expect me to change my habits because of a screen, just so I can be a fanboi for Mac's type of PCs? ;)

Bonus question: Show me a programmer, who needs darker blacks in his IDE/editor. ^^

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[religious freak]

I guess I must've gotten a bad Thinkpad (or maybe I'm just expecting too much?), but my experience with the Thinkpad X61 has been less than great. I don't know if I should blame Vista (piece of shit) or Lenovo, but I blame both.

I've had numbers of irritating, though not terrible, problems, which I cannot directly trace to Vista (piece of shit).

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[Pikoro]

"What the hell is a developer doing going outdoors?"

Fixed that for you.

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[tepples]

"What the hell is a developer doing going outdoors?"

Buying food. Or sitting on the bus going to and from work.

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[MogNuts]

What part of, "must cost $1,200," don't you understand?

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[sznupi]

Well, SL is indeed not a Thinkpad; internally it's basically consumer-level Lenovo laptop with few Thinkpad features and similar styling.

I hate them with a passion. Not because they are bad, they're actually very decent machines.

I hate them because they've killed cheap R-series variants.

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[427_ci_505]

I have an R61 Thinkpad. It's good, and was very cheap for a very good spec (~1000 bucks for a T9300 Core 2 Duo, and I bought 4 gigs of ram myself for $70 at the time, 1680x1050 resolution).

Upsides: Whatever else will be in this thread. For the most part it's been great.

Downsides:
-Left mouse button feels like it's hinged oddly after a year and a half of use
-'b' key feels stuck occasionally
-headphone jack has some lose piece inside so it's hard to get a good audio out without wiggling the jack around a bit (which probably makes the problem worse)
-the power adapter it came with suffered a broken neck (bent, came off) after about 6 months. replacement working ok since then.

So basically, the important parts of the laptop itself have been solid, but there are some small niggling faults.

I'd buy it again, though. Though this time I'd probably spring for a T series.

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[bemymonkey]

I hate them because they've killed cheap R-series variants.

Have they really? About a month after I bought mine, I realized that I could've gotten an R-Series Thinkpad with the same specs (okay, minus the WWAN card) for about 10% more :-(

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[zippthorne]

You should only change if you like the difference. Besides, it's not like Macs are the only notebooks with glossy screens.

There's also the power benefit. You can get away with slightly lower brightness settings with a glossy screen, which ought to have direct benefits in the battery life area.

Speaking of which, one of the other requirements was a removable battery, so he could match his old laptop's two-battery-total of 5--6 hours. But there are a number of notebooks on the market today that can exceed 6 hour runtime without swapping batteries.

The Ask Slashdot is full of assumptions based on older machines that may or may not be valid any more. It would be irresponsible not to suggest reviewing the assumptions as part of the decision process.

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[sznupi]

Yes, really, at least when talking about absolute, non-relative prices...here.

I imagine your $800 SL wasn't the cheapest model at your place, but for that amount I would be able to buy only the cheapest possible SL, perhaps (not without searching / it might be slightly too little). Cheapest R-series is around $1000 (as a rule - if something is an exclusive item, that sells for a premium, it sells for even greater premium on underdeveloped markets)

Compare this with the situation from 1,5 year ago, with low-end R-series starting at around $650 (here!). Yes, those were models with Pentium Dual Core, Intel GFX and so on - for general usage machine one doesn't need more. But - those were after all true Thinkpads, with Trackpoint, Thinkpad quality & durability, and not significantly more expensive than cheapest POS laptops with similar speed specs. If one wants something like this now, that's almost 100% premium (or 50% with SL that gives you, more or less, just Trackpoint).

Seems Lenovo choose to more strictly segment the market. Those $650 R-series were of course late in R61 life, but I suspect now only SL-series has some chance of becoming that affordable.

Yes, I'm bitter - I almost ended up buying one of those cheap R-series, but for too long it was "no time for new laptop yet".

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[zippthorne]

The part where there are two macbook models that come in below that price before you even consider refurbs, and countless otherwise perfectly serviceable PC notebooks with glossy screens not in any way associated with apple.

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[mjwx]

Just picked up a Thinkpad T400 and it is nothing short of amazing. Advantages over the macbooks:

Have to back this one up. I bought a Thinkpad R400 and have been more then pleased with it.

+ Price, at tax time I paid under A$1300 for a C2D 2.1GHz, 2 GB RAM, 4500HD IGM, 14.1" WXGA+, 6 Cell battery and 3 year RTB warranty. At the time this would have been at least A$800 more.
+ Decent Keyboard and inbuilt mouse (nub mouse, three button)
+ Excellent battery life (5+ hours running stock Ubuntu)
+ No issues with Linux Drivers.
+ Cool and ultra quiet.

Because I'm a bit of a cynic, here's the minuses.

- Weight, not as light as other 14" laptops but still under 3 KG.
- Size, only slightly smaller then my previous 15" laptop.
- Opening latch is a bit difficult to use at times.
- Not winning any beauty competitions (but it doesn't use cheap looking white glossy plastic which is always a plus).

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[bemymonkey]

Hmmm, I just checked, and there are R500 models available for 200 LESS (600 + shipping) than I paid for my SL500 (which has only gone down in price by a few measly Euros in the mean time). Of course, that's with WXGA screen res and a 35W processor (but still a 2GHz Core2Duo, 2GB of RAM, FPR), but it is dirt cheap.

I'm guessing that the same model probably sells for around $600-$800 in the US. Can't really believe that they go for $1000, considering that everyone here raves about how cheap Thinkpads are in the US ;-)

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[modulation]

We buy IBM/Lenovo here for about 10 years now, 700 Laptops in use by employes. I agree with you the T60 Series was not their best product to beginn with but the T400/W500 Series are much better now.

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[10Ghz]

Just picked up a Thinkpad T400 and it is nothing short of amazing. Advantages over the macbooks:

* Matte screen w/ WXGA+ LED backlight (new Macbook Pros are all glossy)

You can get the 15" and 17" MBP with either glossy or matte screen.

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[sznupi]

Good to hear there are still some. Now I'm starting to wonder why they aren't available at my place... (yeah, I've checked just now, the prices still stand at ~$1000 for the same specs, but it's a R400; no cheap R500 in sight; perhaps it has more to do with local Lenovo and it's seriously time to look across the border, in Germany)

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[MogNuts]

Why should I have to buy a used, refurbished computer when I can get one with superior specs *new*?

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[zippthorne]

Why should I have to defend Apple's prices when I just wanted to advocate considering that a glossy screen might not be all that bad, and might actually have some desirable properties, and that it really comes down to personal preference?

There are a slew of glossy-screened notebook computers that come in under $1200. Some of them are even made by Apple.

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[alexandre_ganso]

* Matte screen w/ WXGA+ LED backlight (new Macbook Pros are all glossy)

No they're not. A friend of mine bought a Macbook Pro 15" unibody with a matte screeen last week. It's the one with the SD card reader, so it's quite recent.

The only difference I noticed is that the screen's borders are silver, not black and the webcam is quite noticeable, compared to a glossy one.

That's a nice screen, but I still prefer the glass glossy one. Way easier to clean, better colors.

Re:Thinkpad T-series

[Allador]

HP makes phenomenal laptops, but you have to make sure you're buying corporate kit, and not consumer level stuff.

Basically, if you're buying it from a physical retail store, you're buying consumer garbage.

The prior generation, the ones with the 'Compaq' label and otherwise just numbers were excellent.

The new ones are the Elitebooks (IIRC) and are quite amazing.

Not cheap though.

They're marketed as Engineering Workstation Laptops. My HP Compaq 8710w has treated me well for a couple years now, and has been nearly indestructible. Might be a bit big/heavy for some folks (17" widescreen, plus I carry the external 12-cell monstro-battery with it so I can work at Starbucks for hours and hours).

How about repair?

[Progman2000]

Sounds like the Gateway/MPC 450-series laptops to me. The problem is usually the video system of the motherboard. Are you open to simply replacing the motherboard? Look at http://mundocorp.com/ or http://blueraven.com/. Either will sell you the parts or do the whole job for you.

Re:How about repair?

[aggiefalcon01]

I second the repair idea. So the LCD went bonkers ... rather than spending $1200 on a new machine, why not spend $100 - $300 on a replacement screen? YMMV, but for most Gateways, the screen seems to fall in that price range. Plenty of businesses in this niche to choose from. They sell screens for MPC laptops, as well.

Re:MacBook Pro

[Anonymous Showered]

While I have a MBP 13.3 for dev work, it currently lacks:

1. Docking port + station
2. User-swappable battery. However, the 7 hours of battery life it brings is pretty decent, even while working with WiFi. You can, of course, just grab an external battery power pack from a vendor off the web.

Still, it's a good buy. I'd forget bootcamp and just virtualize the other OS with vmWare Fusion.

To Mac or Not

[Kagato]

I go to a lot of developer forums. Be it stuff designed in Java, PHP, Ruby, etc, there is one common thread I've noted of all the developers that present. 8 of 10 presents will use a mac. I switched a few years ago and couldn't be happier. I have VM Ware. Many people use VMs to run various windows versions, I like to use it to run Linux VMs that I eventually move off to other machines. Works fantastic. No need to reboot.

Now, if the OP is a .net person, well, Mac may not be for them. But there's something nice about being able to pop a BSD style terminal window.

Re:To Mac or Not

[Paeva]

I work for a company that does .NET development (with a product that doesn't even work outside IE), and yet about 1/4 of the developers use a MacBook (including myself).

They're pricey, but I figure that the cost is really very low considering I use it all day every day. Even if you're just going to run Windows in a VM or Boot Camp most of the time, MacBooks are very high quality machines.

If you don't *have* to run Windows, MacBook wins hands down if you can afford it.

Re:To Mac or Not

[brxndxn]

The reason I could never take MAC seriously for any sort of business is lack of docking ports..

My old machine (loved it).. IBM T41p.. still one of the best laptops ever made - though out-dated

My current developer machine.. Dell Precision M4400.. 2.53ghz quad-core.. not huge, durable, RGB LED 1920x1200 screen, docking port, display port (can present using display port to dvi adapter), XP 64bit.. great for virtualization

It drives me nuts to see how often MAC gets recommended as a laptop.. Sure.. it's the nicest one you see at Best Buy.. But no corporation should ever consider using laptops that don't have docking ports.

Re:To Mac or Not

[Medgur]

Ugh. Macs.

Disclaimer: I've been a Linux user since 1994.

For my recent position I decided to try full-time development on a Macbook Pro. Things have been... Less than pleasant.

I'm not used to a single application taking down the entire system, or frequent and unpredictable focus-switching. Those irritants came quickly, in the first few weeks. Common dev apps like the Cisco VPN, P4V, et al, behave very poorly in a Mac environment. Not an indictment of apple, for certain, but still a real irritant you end up having to cope with.

The hardware has been shaky as hell, too. My partition table got nuked after a standard update recently. The display frequently refuses to change brightness. Hell, I can't even use the damn thing as a laptop because when running a VM and a few idle applications the CPU cranks up and the heat hits 70C.

Not to mention the highly variant battery life. Sometimes it lasts unbelievably long, other times it fails to properly enter standby and it drains away without warning.

Now, trying to plug in peripherals has been a pain. The Microsoft Ergo keyboard I have ends up with a bizarre Command key mapping, and there's no clear way to define a per-device mapping. Now that I've remapped it the OS absolutely /refuses/ to revert the mapping. So now Alt and Command seem permanently swapped on the Macbook's integrated keyboard.

Sounds like I got a nightmare Macbook, eh?

Well, I had a Ti Powerbook a ways back too, ended up giving it away due to similar ongoing nuisances.

At least MacPorts brings some sanity to the package management...

Macs are beautiful. Hardened beauty like a finely cut diamond, and just as brittle too.

Re:To Mac or Not

[SigILL]

there's no clear way to define a per-device mapping

System Preferences -> Keyboard -> Modifier Keys, select keyboard to apply to. I've had per-keyboard mappings (one for my macbook's builtin keyboard and one for my Model M) since 10.4.x (Tiger).

Hope that helps.

Re:To Mac or Not

[markmcb]

no corporation should ever consider using laptops that don't have docking ports.

This advise is just silly. I work for a large corporation (10K+ employees) and Mac is fully supported in every area of the business (along with PCs/Windows). I know it's really hard to plug 3 cables into the very accessible ports on the side of my computer every morning when I get to work, but somehow I manage.

So, let's not say "no corporation should ever" about anything. There are tradeoffs with most anything. Where you may want a dock, other people like me couldn't care less (I actually prefer not to have the extra hardware on my desk).

I think in general the "Macs are bad for business" argument died about 5 years ago. It's simply not true anymore. On the contrary, I find myself far more productive on my Mac. The computer I had before at the same company was an HP NC6220 running XP. It was a nightmare.

Re:To Mac or Not

[PenguinBob]

As I am a developer, I'm interested to hear just what makes the mac better for development.

Re:To Mac or Not

[ajlisows]

I'm not quite sure about this, but nowadays can't you get a USB dock from any company and have it work with any laptop, possibly even a MAC? My only experience is an HP Laptop with an HP USB Dock (VGA, DVI, 6 USB, 1 Firewire, RJ-45) and while it may not work quite as nice as the more standard docks, it is quite functional.

Re:To Mac or Not

[ThousandStars]

I switched a few years ago and couldn't be happier.

This has been true for a while, and even before Apple switched to x86; see, for example, Paul Graham's March 2005 essay, The Return of the Mac :

All the best hackers I know are gradually switching to Macs. My friend Robert said his whole research group at MIT recently bought themselves Powerbooks. These guys are not the graphic designers and grandmas who were buying Macs at Apple's low point in the mid 1990s. They're about as hardcore OS hackers as you can get.

The reason, of course, is OS X. Powerbooks are beautifully designed and run FreeBSD. What more do you need to know?

I got a Powerbook at the end of last year. When my IBM Thinkpad's hard disk died soon after, it became my only laptop. And when my friend Trevor showed up at my house recently, he was carrying a Powerbook identical to mine.

For most of us, it's not a switch to Apple, but a return. Hard as this was to believe in the mid 90s, the Mac was in its time the canonical hacker's computer.

A 13" MacBook will fulfill some but not all of the requirements listed by the OP (the major missing one being a dock) for $1,200, and it's relatively easy to virtualize and/or dual boot all three major OSes (Windows, Linux, OS X). What more is there?

Re:To Mac or Not

[SpaghettiPattern]

I'm ashamed and embarrassed to confess but I have a Mac too, a 2 year old Macbook Pro. Works a treat and many in our company are switching over.

Re:To Mac or Not

[Concerned Onlooker]

From the sounds of it you have never actually owned a Mac.

A single application taking down the entire machine hasn't been an issue since the days of system 9.

Unpredictable focus is exactly what OS X is not. When you click on an app you stay in that app.

I didn't realize Cisco VPN was a dev app, but it's something that I use all the time to connect to work. And it works every time.

And obviously the very last thing that Mac laptops are is brittle. I've seen plenty of them being carried around at work with caved in corners from being dropped and still working fine.

I just really doubt you've every owned a Mac.

Re:To Mac or Not

[SpaghettiPattern]

What kind of developer are you?

Generally speaking a Mac is easy to setup and configure and the OS is damn stable. Anything I want on Windows just seems to be so horribly cluttered with details (Like setting up wifi.)
I am an integrator which means I travel a lot and stay with many different clients. I have a 17'' Macbook Pro and it's slim design allows me to easily use it on a train. It's large screen means I can actually work with it and at home I never ever plug in my monitor. The fabulous trackpad is way better than a mouse and I never ever plug one in.
Even if your main operating system is Linux or Windows, the Macbook hardware will make life easier.

Re:To Mac or Not

[binary paladin]

Why? Seriously. Why?

If you need the ports, great. Don't get a Mac.

I use mine as a desktop most of the time. I sit down, I plug in my monitor, USB (which handles virtually everything else) and a network connection and I'm good to go. Mind you, I wish Macs had some kind of docking deal since it's a bit of a hassle to plug that stuff in, but the machine I get is worth dealing with that.

(It'll be nice when everything is on some kind of unified external connector. Nothing but 5 of the same ports on the side for EVERYTHING.)

Re:To Mac or Not

[antifoidulus]

8 of 10 presents will use a mac.

Man, what did you do to get that from Santa?

Re:To Mac or Not

[ceoyoyo]

I prefer not to carry around the docking port connector and hardware built into the notebook.

I also plug in my notebook every morning on my desk at work, (and sometimes again in the evening at home). All two cables.

Re:To Mac or Not

[remmelt]

- Strong command line (svn, ssh, scp, grep, the entire unix command suite like diff and tail -f and tee and xargs etc)

- Very decent and free native IDE (XCode)

- My current favourite IDE for Java, IntelliJ IDEA, runs well, no crashes or slowness (though it works well on Linux and Windows, too)

- Built-in apache, native mysql, all in a server-like environment due to the BSD underpinnings

- Hard to describe and very cliche sounding, but OSX has a high get-out-of-your-face value. No big borders, no nag screens, no activation, just the apps you need

Downsides:
- No TortoiseSVN (I don't mind, the command line svn and IntelliJ's built-in client are enough)

- MySQL tools are lagging behind Windows development sometimes

- Sometimes slow with the Java updates

OS's these days have to be usable by anyone, from grandma to hardcore developers. Windows solves this by going lowest common denominator on you. You can bend the OS to your will, no problem, but the nagging is always there (sure you want to open the program files folder? I mean, you could break something!!) OSX is easy enough to use for a granny as well and definitely has its quirks, but you only have to whip open the terminal, type sudo and you have true access to everything.

Re:To Mac or Not

[lucas teh geek]

But it's really easy for the less tech savvy to forget to unplug stuff and break ports and hardware.

WTF? Just how dumb are the devs you work with, and why hasn't working with them driven you to quit and find a job somewhere not staffed by morons?

Re:To Mac or Not

[turing_m]

I don't want to start a holy war here, but what is the deal with you Mac fanatics? I've been sitting here at my freelance gig in front of a MacBook Air for about 20 minutes now while it attempts to copy a 17 Meg file from one folder on the hard drive to another folder. 20 minutes. At home, on my Thinkpad T60 running Ubuntu, which by all standards should be a lot slower than this Mac, the same operation would take about 2 minutes. If that.

In addition, during this file transfer, Safari will not work. And everything else has ground to a halt. Even BBEdit Lite is straining to keep up as I type this.

I won't bore you with the laundry list of other problems that I've encountered while working on various Macs, but suffice it to say there have been many, not the least of which is I've never seen a Mac that has run faster than its non-Mac counterpart, despite the Macs' faster chip architecture. My eeePC 701 runs faster than this 2.13GHz machine at times. From a productivity standpoint, I don't get how people can claim that the Macintosh is a superior machine.

Mac addicts, flame me if you'd like, but I'd rather hear some intelligent reasons why anyone would choose to use a Mac over other faster, cheaper, more stable systems.

Re:To Mac or Not

[Medgur]

I've done that. Appears to have no permanent effect.

Re:To Mac or Not

[Medgur]

P4V and Cisco VPN commonly steal focus when disconnected. Many, many other apps steal focus for other reasons. Not commonly first-party, but still frustrating as hell coming from XFCE wherein I can block it almost entirely.

Cisco VPN _works_. I never meant to imply that it does not. It's just _frustrating_. It'll steal focus, but then P4V will do the same. If I'm happening to use multiple workspaces then the alert window for Cisco VPN can get buried on another page. Clicking the icon does not recover the VPN dialog, instead seeming to do /nothing at all/. I end up having to page through workspaces and perform a manual search for it.

Ooh, polished.

For a good example of apps which can lock down a modern OSX system look no farther than Screensavers. Should one of those fail (like, say, Electric Sheep) then short of rebooting there doesn't seem to be a good way to recover. Incidentally, it's why my Mac doesn't have the screensaver enabled anymore.

It's brittle as in the software doesn't stand up to pressure. The hardware, meh. The mushed in corners you mentioned tend to not occur on machines which are not made of malleable metals. Just about every other Mac owner I know has suffered a terminally clicking DVD drive and prematurelly failed hard disc. Anecdotal, sure, but enough to keep me from buying one again.

Anyhow, stating that the likes of VPN & SCM clients not being developer... Really? Really?! C'mon.

Re:To Mac or Not

[Medgur]

Probably just an incompatibility with my KVM.

Re:To Mac or Not

[ThousandStars]

Sorry to reply to my own post, but I thought I'd point out that you can apparently get an external port replicator, but it's a) honkin' ugly and b) expensive.

Re:To Mac or Not

[falconwolf]

The reason I could never take MAC seriously for any sort of business is lack of docking ports..

Though Apple doesn't make any there are docks for Macs. When I get my next MacBook Pro I may get a BookEndz as well.

It drives me nuts to see how often MAC gets recommended as a laptop.. Sure.. it's the nicest one you see at Best Buy.. But no corporation should ever consider using laptops that don't have docking ports.

One, see above. Two, Macs, including Mac laptops, are used in businesses. I dated, yes dated, a lady who ran her own business and she only used Macs. If she had to run Windows, and running a business she had to when working with clients as well as for testing, she ran it in a VM. Here's a "CIO" article on "MacBook Pro and IPod on Mount Everest".

Falcon

Re:To Mac or Not

[gmhowell]

Well, yes one could, but applying a little forethought would eliminate his ability to vent some nerdrage.

Re:To Mac or Not

[gmhowell]

I could believe the "Macs are used in businesses" troll, but you went too far saying you have "dated a lady".

Re:To Mac or Not

[falconwolf]

I'm not used to a single application taking down the entire system, or frequent and unpredictable focus-switching.

I've never had these problems on my Macs.

The hardware has been shaky as hell, too.

I had one Mac last me 8 years and the only problem I had with it, until it died, is because it was a Mac SE 30 it was not expandable. I also had a Power Mac 7300/200 last me 6 years, the only problem I had with it was when it refused to boot. In both cases I bought them used, the SE 30 was made in 1988-9 and the Power Mac in 1997. I am typing this on a MacBook Pro I've had more than 2 years and have had 2 hardware problems with it. First the graphics subsystem had to be replaced about 16 months after I got it. The second one when I had to have the DVD drive replaced last week. Two hardware problems in 2 years.

However I had 2 hardware problems with 3 PCs I bought new after less than a year. In all three cases the harddisk drive and motherboards had to be replaced/

My partition table got nuked after a standard update recently.

First, when the harddisk drives in those 3 PCs were replaced, the OS had to be reinstalled as well. Then when the mobo had to be replaced in one the disk I had all my user data on, a second drive installed specifically for user files containing more than 500 GB of data, despite written instructions to not format the drive the tech who repaired the PC reformatted the drive anyway.

Quite simply partitions can be nuked whatever OS is used. Heck I can take a Ubuntu Live CD and nuke a partition.

Not to mention the highly variant battery life. Sometimes it lasts unbelievably long, other times it fails to properly enter standby and it drains away without warning.

Again, in the more than 2 years I've had my MBP I haven't had a problem like this. I did freak out once when I was out and using my laptop, it totally stopped working. After I got home I plugged it in and it started working again, so I guess when the battery charge level went too far discharged it hibernated.

Now, trying to plug in peripherals has been a pain.

Again I haven't had any such problem. When I plugged in my 3 external disks, 2 USB 2 and one Firewire 800, they were automatically recognized. The same with my USB 2 connected Canon printer, Epson scanner, and Logitech trackball. Soon I'll see if Ubuntu is as good, I plan on installing Ubuntu on my Mac and make it dualboot.

Falcon

Re:To Mac or Not

[falconwolf]

I notice you didn't respond to GP's statement on crashes, "A single application taking down the entire machine hasn't been an issue since the days of system 9." Mac OS 9 is one Mac OS I know I haven't used but I have used Macs since 1984 and I have not had an entire machine crash because of one app, the only tyme I've had a Mac crash was when there was a blackout. On the other hand I have repeatedly suffered through such crashes when I used Windows. That was one of the reasons I switched from Windows PCs to, first a Linux PC, then a MacBook Pro.

Falcon

Re:To Mac or Not

[Jeremy Erwin]

When people "dock" their laptops, they usually aren't running off batteries-- which means that the video chipset can run a little faster. Perhaps they can even use a supplementary card, like a 9600 GT. And they can use an external display-- perhaps even a 30 inch.
USB Video, on the other hand, is poorly accelerated, if at all, and tends to be low resolution. USB2 simply isn't fast enough.

Re:To Mac or Not

[falconwolf]

As I am a developer, I'm interested to hear just what makes the mac better for development.

With a Windows PC you can only develop for Windows. With Linux you can develop for Linux or Windows. With Macs you can develop for all three.

I am not one now but that is one of the reasons I switched, to first Linux for my desktop, then to a MacBook Pro for a laptop. I can develop and test on all 3 platforms, er I could if I still had Windows. But unless Microsoft stops treating it's users like criminals I will stay as far away from MS as I can.

Falcon

Re:To Mac or Not

[Count Fenring]

You might want to step back a little and consider how rude you're being here. You just responded to someone's personal anecdote with "UR A LIAR! LIEZLIEZLIEZ!" Even if he happened to be lying, which I doubt, as there's not really a potential motive there, you still come off as the bad guy here.

It sounds to me like he might have been using either an older Macbook Pro, running a few revisions back, or possibly a second-hand or borrowed one that's been running a while and had weird stuff done on it (as secondhand developer boxes tend to). He's certainly had bad luck with his hardware (possibly getting an early-in-the-production-run unit, which are known to be flaky). Sure, it's unusual for a Mac, but it's not unheard of - I myself am waiting on a screen replacement on my three week-old Macbook Pro.

If he's been a Linux user since 1994, the Mac's focus model might, in fact, seem pretty weird, especially since you can have an application with zero windows that still has focus. And, since he's a developer, and also probably using X11, that means that focus behavior can vary between Aqua windows and X11 windows on the same display at the same time, which, honestly, is pretty bizarre when you're not used to it.

Re:To Mac or Not

[Eskarel]

Presumably he's not just talking about dev's. There are very few purely development based companies out there, and however easy it is to support macs, supporting a mixed environment without a really good reason is a general nightmare for support(and running VMWare up the second you turn it on to actually do any work on a windows machine isn't a good reason), so using macs for the developers would mean using macs for most everyone else and a lot of those people aren't tech savy.

That said, a lot of developers don't come up through the support path, and quite a number of them don't know much of anything about anything and I've seen network admins who break the sockets for the old ribbon IDE cables because they didn't know how to work with them safely.

Re:To Mac or Not

[falconwolf]

I don't want to start a holy war here, but what is the deal with you Mac fanatics? I've been sitting here at my freelance gig in front of a MacBook Air for about 20 minutes now while it attempts to copy a 17 Meg file from one folder on the hard drive to another folder. 20 minutes. At home, on my Thinkpad T60 running Ubuntu, which by all standards should be a lot slower than this Mac, the same operation would take about 2 minutes. If that.

It took you more than 20 minutes to copy a 17MB, or was that Mb?, file? A couple of days ago to prepare to upgrade my MacBook Pro running Leopard to Snow Leopard, and install Ubuntu to dualboot, I cloned my Mac OSX disk to create a bootable external drive. How long did it take to clone 20GB? Not more than a couple of hours. When I actually do install Snow Leopard and Ubuntu, I'll first use Carbon Copy Cloner to clone my user directory which takes up more than 100GB. I don't expect it to take as long as a day.

Mac addicts, flame me if you'd like, but I'd rather hear some intelligent reasons why anyone would choose to use a Mac over other faster, cheaper, more stable systems.

Isn't your post the opposite, a flame against Macs? Faster? I don't have some thing modern to compare it to but I haven't used a computer faster than my MacBook Pro. Cheaper? Before buying my MBP I make a list of hardware requirements then went comparison shopping. The cheapest laptop I saw cost $150 less than a MacBook Pro, however every other one cost as much or more than the MBP. More stable? One of the reasons I switched was because of stability, I was sick and tired of my PCs constantly crashing and having to be repaired. Yes repaired. Of 4 new PCs I bought the harddisk drive and motherboard of 3 of them had to be replaced within a year. On the other hand I bought 2 used Macs which lasted me 8 and 7 years. The MacBook Pro I'm typing this on has had to be repaired twice in the 2 years I've had it. The score, of 4 PCs 6 repairs in one year, vs no repairs needed of 2 Macs in more than 7 years and 2 repairs on 1 Mac in 2 years.

Falcon

Re:To Mac or Not

[Eskarel]

So long as you restrict yourself to laptops, I think you're correct. This is partially because Apple has been making non upgradable, underpowered hardware(though this has changed somewhat lately) in a cute plastic case for almost 30 years and that's exactly what a laptop is and partially because for the most part, PC laptops really really suck(lenovos are doing a fairly good job of continuing their thinkpad roots and being ugly as all hell, but reasonably functional) .

I would never ever by a Mac desktop, but if I had the spare cash I would seriously consider a mac laptop(a real one, not one of the toys).

Wonder when PC makers will realize they've got to lift their game on laptops and create stuff that's actually useful.

Re:To Mac or Not

[Neil Jansen]

I'm feeding fire to the flame by saying this, but if you're okay with shelling out another $800 to Apple, the 24" LED Cinema Display makes a great docking station -- Well, the closest Apple will ever get. It has three connections, USB to 3-port hub, Mini DisplayPort, and a Mag Jack for power. Not as easy as just picking your laptop up and walking away, but it's really not that bad. Yes it's obviously over-priced, but for me it works. Also the LED backlight and In-Plane Switching TFT panel makes it tremendously better color reproduction and viewing angle when compared to the CCFL twisted-nematic displays common today. I do a lot of photography so the color reproduction is important.

But I do agree with you, I don't know any businesses outside of art and movie studios that would go with a MacBook and Cinema Display. I find it works great for home though. And yes, I'm in the boat that thinks spending >$2000 for a computer setup isn't a huge deal if it's something you like in the end. I could turn it into a car analogy i.e. Mercedes vs. Volkswagen, but I'm rambling on at this point.

Re:To Mac or Not

[Neil Jansen]

Wrong -- At least for the new models. My 13" MacBook Unibody (the ones right before the 13" MacBook Pros) has extended desktop. Also the white polycarbonate models have extended desktop as well.

http://www.apple.com/macbook/specs.html

Re:To Mac or Not

[Hurricane78]

I highly and strongly doubt your statements. Because even assuming the fact that he can't possibly know "all the best hackers" (even more unlikely, as he's a Apple fanboi) does not matter, I think he's either living in a reality distortion field or getting payed to say that. ("Windows laptop hunters", anyone? ^^)

From my experience, a Mac is never ever an option for an actual computer expert, because:
1. The keyboard is as usual, a horrible horrible joke. More made for looks than for real usage.
2. You pay 50% tax just to get the Apple logo on there, while the hardware is way below any other laptop in that price range.
3. Stupid glaring screens. Also more made for looks than for real usage.
4. Pointless addition of MacOS for a programmer who uses Linux (as TFS states) and if he has to, Windows too, no matter what his main OS is.

Macs are all good and fine, if you are a casual computer user, or someone who refuses to waste time learning how computers work because his expert area (where he invests time in) lies somewhere else. Especially one who does care more for the looks and the dream that is sold, than for the tech. Which is perfectly OK in that case. But for programmers? That's just perverse.

Re:To Mac or Not

[msimm]

But there's something nice about being able to pop a BSD style terminal window.

When your on a Wintel box why not use cygwin?

Re:To Mac or Not

[tepples]

That's still only three plugs: USB hub, video, and power. I can plug those into my laptop in ten seconds tops.

Re:To Mac or Not

[MogNuts]

It was a nightmare because of PEBCAK. XP, if you had any sort of decent knowledge, ran very well. If you had to use a Mac because you couldn't figure out how to use XP, well thank god you're not in charge of administering those computers.

Re:To Mac or Not

[MogNuts]

The question is, what *less* is there. For $1,200 he could get sooo much more for the money with a PC. Please, $1,200 for a old Core 2 Duo, skimpy (and slow) 5400RPM 160GB HD, and only 2GB of memory. Hey buddy, I have a bridge to sell you.

Re:To Mac or Not

[Kagato]

Cygwin is Unix utilities that run ontop of windows. They don't really hook into the OS at all. Since MacOS is based on BSD that terminal is true system level unix commands.

Re:To Mac or Not

[markmcb]

If you had to use a Mac because you couldn't figure out how to use XP, well thank god you're not in charge of administering those computers.

No, this is why geeks who don't know when to "turn off their geekness" shouldn't be put in charge. Low level people tend to have fluff in their schedules. They have time to sit at their desk and think "stupid PEBCAK!" and tweak either their hardware or software to deal with it. As you move up the food chain though, time to do stuff like that goes down as you spend all of your time trying to get the 50 guys that work for you to focus on the business and not PEBCAK. The result is that your time to tweak your system diminishes while the impact of hardware/software issues rises.

I assure you it's not that I don't have the aptitude. I just choose to apply myself elsewhere and expect my hardware/software to just work.

And your implication that Mac is somehow for dumb people is just wrong. If you're in charge of administering anything, I strongly recommend you step out of your geek shoes and look at people as individuals and offer/support systems that meet their needs, not yours.

Re:To Mac or Not

[UnknownSoldier]

An dedicated insert key on the keyboard for one.

Re:To Mac or Not

[MogNuts]

I wholeheartedly agree that time should be spent on doing the business. Except that you are wrong again, although I don't think you know it. Macs are a terrible choice here because PCs are the target platform, and applications and software are designed and tested for them. Hence less issues for PCs. And in addition, Windows is light years ahead for any sort of administration--in both speed, convenience and simplicity--for any size organization (and would be more efficient the larger the org) than Apple computers. And did I mention? The $500-1000 different PER computer cost isn't exactly in Apple's favor.

Re:To Mac or Not

[markmcb]

wrong again, although I don't think you know it. Macs are a terrible choice here because PCs are the target platform, and applications and software are designed and tested for them.

It sounds like your IT staff made some poor decisions. If you are in a situation where you've tied yourself to one vendor, then you may be correct about PCs. However, I recommend you look for software that follows standards and isn't made for a specific version of a specific application on a specific platform.

And in addition, Windows is light years ahead for any sort of administration--in both speed, convenience and simplicity--for any size organization (and would be more efficient the larger the org) than Apple computers.

Not sure what you mean here. Remote login, controlled updates, automatic backups, MS Office, ERP software, etc., etc., etc., is all available on Mac too. Again, this is a dated argument.

And did I mention? The $500-1000 different PER computer cost isn't exactly in Apple's favor.

That's an easy stat to toss out, but I'd challenge you to back it. When you go spec-for-spec, Apple's hardware isn't much more expensive (sometimes cheaper) than the PC alternative. And there's the cost of support to consider too. In general, you get what you pay for. If you buy a cheap PC, it's probably going to cost you time and money to keep it running. If I'm getting paid $50/hr, it only takes a day of me screwing around with my quirky PC to cover your price gap (if it even exists). You've got to look beyond the sticker price.

Anyway, best of luck to you.

Re:To Mac or Not

[klaue]

I know it's really hard to plug 3 cables into the very accessible ports on the side of my computer every morning when I get to work, but somehow I manage.

Power supply, USB hub, ethernet cable, external display, and possibly an audio connector. Don't understate that!

Re:To Mac or Not

[LandGator]

At LINUXCON, saw more Thinkpads than anything else which would meet your specs. However, I repair old laptops for fun at FreeGeek.org and Gateways are easier to work on than anything else, IMHO.

Re:To Mac or Not

[msimm]

By hook in you mean allow you to manipulate file, pipe data or run services? Honestly, I'm a Linux guy and the only major difference off the top of my head would be the extra prefix required to access the rest of the file system. What do you see as the major differences then?

Re:To Mac or Not

[MogNuts]

1) Have you had an experience whatsoever with computers? The shear breadth of software in the enterprise available for Windows or even Linux *dwarfs* those for OSX. And you are just knocking your own argument. By going with Apple, you tie yourself to one vendor.

2) Yes OSX has *some* admin tools. But again, what is built-in with Windows and what is available *dwarfs* and are so much more featureful it's not even funny. There was an article a while back reviewing OSX server, I forget where (Anand, Toms, something to that regard). Let me sum it up for you: A hodgepodge of actually free UNIX tools with GUI interfaces, and while ok, not even close to being an integrated and coherent product as Windows Server.

3) Wrong, spec for spec Apple *is* more expensive, and the nice thing with PCs is you have the option of giving the assistant, who doesn't need a ridiculously fast CPU for typing documents, the option to save even *more* money. And as for a cheap PC that supposedly has cheap parts, Apple PCs have *identical* parts, which as most people know are also some of the cheapest around. So yes, you're right. Choose a PC option that gives you the *choice* to put in quality parts, so that you're *not* wasting time on Apple computers breaking down. See, I can look beyond sticker price too.

Re:To Mac or Not

[markmcb]

1) Have you had an experience whatsoever with computers?

Yes, I have a degree in computer science, telecommunication experience, and currently lead a team that delivers ERP reporting solutions to Windows, OS X, and Linux users.

There was an article a while back reviewing OSX server ... not even close to being an integrated and coherent product as Windows Server.

Who's talking about servers? This thread started with me stating that a dock is not sufficient criteria to not allow user to have Macs. I'm focused on my laptop. I do agree that OS X Server isn't that great.

Wrong, spec for spec Apple *is* more expensive.

No, you're wrong. Let's stop bickering and use these crazy things called "facts."

• Apple MacBook Pro, 17": $2,499
• Lenovo W700ds, 17" (upgraded to match Mac specs): $3,533, currently on sale for $2,494
• Lenovo T400s, 14.1" (upgraded to match Mac specs): $2,695, currently on sale for $2,592

It's not 2001 anymore. Time to update your "why I hate Mac" argument.

I think if you'd just step back for one second, you'll see that 1 solution seldom fits all. Windows/PCs have their strengths, but so does any system.

Re:To Mac or Not

[MogNuts]

Cherry picking 2 systems, and checking every option, to bring it up to that ludicrous price doesn't make it true. Getting a powerful laptop at the 17" size, if it costs you more than $1,500 for a PC, you are doing it wrong.

Re:To Mac or Not

[MogNuts]

Btw, just spec'd a Dell Studio 17. *Identical* specs to a 17" MBP.... for a grand total of *gasp* $1,229. That was hard.

Re:To Mac or Not

[markmcb]

Ok, this is my last response as it seems you're not going to be objective about this.

First, if you go to Dell and click "business" they don't list the Studio. That's why it's cheap. It's not in the same class as the Lenovos I listed or the MacBook Pro. Let's review your assessment in detail, shall we?

• Mac Baseline: $2499.

Let's compare that to the Dell Studio:

• Dell Studio 17 Baseline: $1099.
• Upgrade to Windows Vista Ultimate: +$150 (OS X has everything, so you have to pick the Windows edition with everything)
• Upgrade to 500 GB HDD: +$75
• Upgrade to CD/DVD Writer: +$29
• Upgrade to Bluetooth: +$25
• Upgrade to Backlit keyboard: +$25
• Upgrade to Sony Imagination Studio (near iLife equivalent): +$100

Total: $1500

Whoa! That's really cheap!!! So why the price gap? Apple must be robbing us, right? Not so fast ...

• Dell resolution: 1440x900. Mac 1920x1200
• Dell HDD: 5400 rpm, Mac HDD: 7200rpm
• Dell RAM: DDR2, Mac RAM DDR3
• Dell Weight: 7.8 lbs., Mac Weight: 6.6 lbs
• Dell Battery: 4 hours, Mac Battery 8 hours
• Dell thickness: 1.7", Mac thickness: 0.9"
• Dell Video card: 256MB, Mac Video Card: 512MB

You can continue the list if you'd like. All you have to do is actually look at the spec pages. So, nice try, but I've been around the block before. You should go check the Dell business class systems and price them. I just matched specs on the Dell Precision and it's $2884. You get what you pay for. It's not that these systems are overpriced, they're simply better spec'ed.

But hey, as long as you can convince yourself, that's all that really matters. The last word is yours if you want it. I'm done with this thread.

Re:To Mac or Not

[MogNuts]

Baseline is $649 buddy. Again, you cherry-picked the one that fits higher numbers with like $300 worth of support

Re:To Mac or Not

[Allador]

3 Cables? How do you figure that.

Looking at mine:

1 x power
1 x ethernet
1 x speakers
1 x keyboard
1 x mouse
2 x external displays

I know not everyone is going to have 2 external displays, but even without, that's still 6 cables you have to plug and unplug every single time you come or go from the office.

The reason people say you need docking stations at work is that most folks can't do real 8-10 hours on the computer using tiny cramped keyboards and tiny cramped displays that are all in the wrong location from each other.

It's okay for a couple hours in meetings or sitting in Starbucks, but for real developer work you need a real full size keyboard, a real external mouse, a real 22" or larger display (at least one).

Not to mention that because Mac's lack docking stations, you can never have more than one external display.

Re:To Mac or Not

[markmcb]

3 Cables? How do you figure that.

Actually it's usually 2: power supply and monitor. One is a mag connection and the other is mini-DisplayPort so it's super easy to plug them in.

I use a wireless keyboard and mouse. And our network is 802.11n so I rarely ever plug in the ethernet cable, but that would be #3.

I don't use external speakers at work. When I do occasionally need sound, the built-in speakers are quite good.

Re:To Mac or Not

[Medgur]

"lock down" was meant to imply "crash", sorry for that misunderstanding.

In general...

[postmortem]

From my personal experience, if you want to have efficiency:

1. You will need as much screen estate as possible. Coding against spec? Against existing code? Against requirements? Writing tests against code? In all these cases you would want to have at least 2 windows open in parallel
Thus resolutions such as 1680x1050 or 1920x1080 are desirable. Don't go for 1280x800 unless portability is #1 goal.

2. Compiling ... Compiling ...
Investing in faster CPU will pay off in both short and long term. You won't be able to change CPU - almost not feasible.

3. Hard drive
Today's development requires a lot of tools open at same time, and often projects are huge with lots of small files.
Therefore, I recommend going for 7200rpm drive which will help you feel like you are using desktop (speed-wise)

4. Other stuff
Most laptops today come with lots of RAM, and decent graphics.

Re:ehh

[Anonymous Coward]

And it meets none of the poster's requirements. Good jerb!

Re:ehh

[jma05]

You are not really being objective. You are comparing your older generation notebook with your current generation Mac Book. That accounts for the price better than whether Mac is value for it's price (maybe it is, but that is a different argument). It would have helped if you detailed how you defined build quality and stability. Should be easy given that you claim remarkable difference, not subtle. And it would have been fair to compare the your current MacBook to a current Windows laptop (not that I expect everyone to own more than 1 laptop at a time).

Easy: ThinkPad.

[outZider]

ThinkPad has the hotswap bays, excellent Linux support, excellent hardware support and turnaround from the factory, and there's always a 20% off coupon floating around. You can get a T series laptop with discrete graphics and well equipped for that $1,200 you're willing to spend, and probably far less. Not only that, but you generally get higher resolution displays than you get with Dell or Gateway laptops.

As for your Windows 98 installs -- why not use VirtualBox?

Thinkpad is worth considering

[Matthew Weigel]

I'm typing this response from a Thinkpad R500 :-)

Thinkpad docks are solid and have been around a long time, as have hotswap bays; some stuff like memory card readers are already present. Ubuntu works very well with both suspend and hibernate, many models support dual monitors via the dock (I think mine supports dual external monitors via the VGA and DisplayPort connectors, but haven't tested more than one external monitor; according to documentation two external monitors via the dock aren't supported), and the built-in LCD's resolution is extremely reasonable at 1680x1050.

And, of course, the keyboard is one of the best in the business (although I've heard vi users complain about the placement of the Esc key, getting proper spacing between F1 and Esc on a laptop isn't easy).

Re:Thinkpad is worth considering

[tetsukaze]

I work almost exclusively with Lenovo Thinkpads and I have to say they are the most solid laptops I have ever touched. For the most part, a laptop is a laptop to me, but reliability is a huge concern for a computer that is constantly being moved around. I feel like I could beat a man to death with one these laptops and google map my escape plan with out any hitches.

Predictible answer - Mac.

[raarts]

Buy a MacBook. Install 4Gb, buy Parallels Desktop for $50 or so and you can run every Windows and Linux in a Virtual Machine, and switch between them with Ctrl-Arrow. I recently did this and am very happy with it.

Re:Predictible answer - Mac.

[chrysrobyn]

While the Mac may be a predictable answer, it doesn't answer the challenge of a port replicator or a hot swappable drive bay.

While I have to disclose that I'm typing this on a 24" iMac Merom, and that i own 100 shares of Apple, the MacBook Pro comes closes to the challenge, given the hefty built-in battery and optical drive (and no need to choose between them), but only barely meets the price. You won't find a MacBook Pro docking station either. The processor will be a noticable upgrade, and a few vitrual machines will please you with convenience for the other OSes (but you'll want to cough up 50-100 for more RAM before too long if you go this route I think).

Given the poster's happiness with the previous machine, I'd suggest repair or finding a used machine of the same model. All the legacy hardware will still work. If you're really interested in a little better performance, make sure you have maxed out the RAM (can make a very big difference) and take a good hard look at SSDs that may fit your budget. A good SSD will completely change how you use your machine, and you'll quickly find that lower latency mass storage will greatly impact a variety of tasks you thought had already hit their peak (I recommend this article.

Re:Predictible answer - Mac.

[ToasterOven]

Macs are great machines, yes. But they're not for everyone. The OP specifically mentioned a hot swappable drive bay, the ability to use an extra battery, and docking ports as features he desires, and MacBooks have none of those. Sure, the new 17" MBP doesn't *need* an extra battery, since the built in can go a good 8 hours on one charge, but still, the ability to swap drives and easily dock your laptop are nice features. Personally, I've used OS X on a couple of Dell laptops, and found that it almost is better than using a true MacBook, simply for the extra things you can have that work great with OS X but aren't standard features on a MacBook -- things like built in card readers, fingerprint scanners, smart card readers, docking stations, etc.

Re:Predictible answer - Mac.

[raarts]

Mmm, you may be right, allthough I don't get all the fuzz about the Mac not having docking ports. I hook up my desktop hardware using USB and the DVI port. This way I get two screens, and the mac keyboard (which has a mouse connected). I can attach floppy, extra hard drives using USB as well.

Does a docking station really offer so much more?

Re:Predictible answer - Mac.

[ToasterOven]

Does a docking station really offer so much more?

It depends on the particular situation. If you have a lot of devices, multiple monitor setups, etc. then yes. Using a docking station, you simply sit the laptop on the dock and push down slightly (or close it and slide it in, depending on the laptop) and you're good to go. Otherwise, you have to connect a power cord, monitor cord(s), any USB devices you may be using, speaker connections, eSATA ports, etc. If you only have an external monitor, or a printer, or something where you're only talking power and a couple cords, it's not so bad without a dock. But even with that, it's still more convenient to simply have to deal with sitting the laptop in the dock than to try and get the video cable turned the right direction and aligned with the pins before you can get to work. Plus, some docks (like the Dell D series) can be mounted on notebook and monitor stands, giving you added benefit of a better viewing angle or a convenient storage spot while the book is docked. At least for me, it wouldn't necessarily be a deal breaker, as MacBooks are really nice systems, and I can live without a dock, but it really depends on your workflow.

Re:Predictible answer - Mac.

[Neil Jansen]

Buy a USB hub, a Mini DisplayPort to [VGA|DVI] adaptor, and an extra power adaptor (shouldn't run you >$100 total). I unplug and plug these three things into my MacBook daily and it's not bad at all. To think that I could pick my nose with the three seconds I would've saved is profound.

Re:Predictible answer - Mac.

[falconwolf]

The OP specifically mentioned a hot swappable drive bay, the ability to use an extra battery, and docking ports as features he desires, and MacBooks have none of those.

MacBooks/Pros don't have a hot swappable drive bay but there are external batteries and docks.

Falcon

Re:ehh

[flydpnkrtn]

Weeelll... you can't just nuke it and install anything yet. I tried to install only Linux on the Macbook I have only to find it uses EFI only, so until grub2 makes it into distros and it fully supports the Macbook EFI, you're stuck with having OS X around just to setup bootcamp (and emulate the regular BIOS, I guess)

I have read they don't have all the bugs nailed out in grub2/EFI/Macbooks yet, and this post: http://www.mail-archive.com/grub-devel@gnu.org/msg12901.html looks like it agrees with what I read. His test was done September 22nd...

That's been my experience, anyway. YMMV

Re:MacBook Pro

[flydpnkrtn]

A docking port! I've run into the same issue... it really, really gets annoying plugging in DVI, keyboard, mouse, network when I want to take my Macbook to work!

Jeez Apple 1999 called they want their already solved problem back

(see here for thread started in 2006... http://forums.macrumors.com/archive/index.php/t-244340.html )

Why Laptop?

[Gonoff]

Laptops, notebooks, netbooks etc all have their uses. (I am using one now while I watch TV). They seem to suffer from a couple of problems though...

1. They are generally underpowered or expensive.
2. They have cramped keyboards
3. small screens
4. You use them in un-ergonomic positions

Most of these problems are irrespective of the OS or make. These things are designed for specific uses, portability etc. If you want something to do your regular work on, get something with a full sized keyboard, mouse & screen. Laptops are good for meetings, travel and lounging in front of the idiot box.

Get a netbook or something for when you are away from your system and open a terminal session off it if necessary.

Re:Why Laptop?

[istartedi]

All of these problems are easily solved

My laptop has enough power. If I wanted more, I could get a "desktop replacement" laptop; but I'm fine with what I've got.

When I'm not going mobile, I plug in a keyboard. I can even drive the classic AT keyboard you see in this picture, via adapters which aren't expensive at all.

I've also plugged in an auxilliary monitor.

My chair (not pictured) is not fancy, but it's comfortable enough for me.

As you can see, I've even got multimedia speakers plugged in. I watch vids all the time like this. The only thing I can't do is expand my hardware; but I'm not trying to build some neon game machine here. Once I got this laptop setup, I never looked back.

IIRC, there was an overpriced solution back in the day called a "docking station"; but modern laptops have all the power, and all the connectors you need to duplicate the desktop experience. I have a comfortable workstation that I can take on the road with me. I can't imagine why anybody would want a traditional tower case that's not mobile.

Oh, in case you're wondering, the case is open because I like the trackpad. I could use a mouse separately and move the machine off the desktop if I really wanted to do that.

Re:Why Laptop?

[shell-shocked.org]

Unrelated, but I'd just like to say that "For all intensive purposes" should probably be "For all intents and purposes" in your sig.

Re:Why Laptop?

[Gonoff]

We supply docking stations to users whose work or status means they need a laptop.

So when you get to your desk, you plug in screen, keyboard, power supply and speakers. As you like your trackpad, you can save on that connector. Hopefully you have WiFi.

That would be a pain for me. I go to my computer and start using it. I also have a better system for my money. If I am at a meeting, an underpowered small device will do.

Re:Why Laptop?

[ceoyoyo]

Hm? Laptops are more expensive. But cheaper than a laptop and a desktop. Presumably the guy wants to have the option of taking the thing with him.

Laptops aren't underpowered for development work. They're underpowered for hard core gamers but that's about it. If you find your laptop is underpowered for development you really should be considering what the users of your code might be running it on.

My notebook (MBP) has a full size keyboard, except for the numeric keypad. I've never used the numeric keypad for development, or much else except playing games. If it's an issue I can always plug in a full keyboard if I'm sitting at a desk.

If the screen on your notebook is too small you buy a monitor and hook it up when you're sitting at your desk.

You can use a notebook in the same position you do when sitting at a desktop. Or you can put it on your lap, which is actually one of the best places to have your keyboard (note where keyboard trays are). Or you can use it in your hammock, which is the most ergonomic position I've ever discovered.

Re:Why Laptop?

[istartedi]

One mother-of-all-connectors would be nice. I'm not willing to pay through the nose for that. Have the prices on those things come down? My impression on them is that they're proprietary and expensive; but if they're not, then sure I'd much rather have one fat connector.

Ethernet is actually very easy to connect. The only connector that's really a hassle is the monitor, but if you cheat and don't turn the little screws then it's not so bad. If I'm going to be at the desk for a long time, I turn the screws. If I'm moving the laptop into the next room so I can watch movies on the big screen, I just put the monitor cable in loosely, and then I use WiFi but only because I don't want to trip over a cable when I get up for snacks. Most of the time the laptop is on the desk, but sometimes it moves into the living area and plays DVDs, YouTube, or Hulu. That kills off another device, and cable TV!

I guess the convenience of not having to spend less than a minute plugging in cables isn't worth multiple devices and thousands of dollars to me. In these tough economic times, I think more people will be willing to spend a few seconds plugging in a cable; but I've always been a bit cheap I suppose, and not interested in chasing every new little gadget that comes along, and if there's a way to duplicate functionality with a reasonable effort, I'll just duplicate the functionality instead of paying for the convenient version.

Re:Why Laptop?

[Gonoff]

I guess that I just don't usually consider laptops convenient.

Re:Why Laptop?

[zippthorne]

Incorrect. "whom" is only not a word for intensive purposes. There are intents and/or purposes for which "whom" is a valid word, although modern English (or at least American English) now allows the use of "who" for those purposes (and intents!) as well, because most of us are too stupid or just too busy to ever bother figuring out where "whom" was supposed to be used.

But if you have a really intensive purpose, the chance that you might use "whom" incorrectly and mess up the intent contraindicates its use there.

Re:Why Laptop?

[falconwolf]

I can't imagine why anybody would want a traditional tower case that's not mobile.

I'm typing this on my MacBook Pro but under my desk I have 2 towers with 2 hard disk each. One is old, I got it more than 10 years ago, and the other is 3 years old. That one I can, and will, upgrade and use as a server. When I am on the road I can then connect to it to upload and download files, when I can connect. Because it is stationary it can have a faster and more powerful mobo and cpu. There are a number of uses for towers that laptops, and desktops, can not handle or is a waste of money to use for.

Falcon

T400

[dmitrygr]

Lenovo T400 has swappable bay (CD, HDD, extra battery). It has great LED-backlit LCD option. It has the enw intel mobile chipset so battery life is amazing (I get over 12 hours with the cd-tray battery and the 9-cell main battery)

Hmm Developer Laptop...

[tonywestonuk]

So, I guess, you would want the laptop to come with Java preinstalled (if you a Java Dev), or PHP / Apache installed, if you are that way inclinded. For source control, best make sure it comes with a mainstream SCM software, something like Subversion and hopefully the same company will create an IDE that supports it out of the box , while at the same time recognizing that alternative IDE's are out there and provide support and assistance to those who want to use it. Of course, been a developer laptop, having a good Backup Strategy is important, you wouldn't want to loose all that hard work if your hard disk died now would you!. Finally, of course, that manufacturer would provide tools to allow alternative operating systems to run on their hardware so you can test your final product on different systems, or even provide links to third party software should you wish to run any OS in a virtualised environment.....

Shame such a company doesn't exist *sigh*...

I am not so enthusiastic

[jopet]

I am also typing this from a T500 -- I am running Ubuntu 9.04 on it and I keep having problems with the graphics. The laptop comes with an ATI Mobility Radeon and the default driver doesnt deliver proper 3D performance and the proprieatry driver causes problems and X crashes.
The keyboard is ok, but not the good quality any more that oler Thinkpads had to offer.
Also, Lenovo does not offer to sell the laptop without a forced Windows license.
Another problem at least in my country is that Lenovo does not offer alternative keyboard layout options or any other configuration option -- one has to go with one of the available models.
Finally, Lenovo support sucks bigtime.

Re:I am not so enthusiastic

[Matthew Weigel]

I'll admit I have yet to hear anything positive about AMD/ATI's proprietary Linux driver, and it's been a while since anyone seemed to say nice things about the open source X.org driver either. Mine has integrated Intel graphics, and it works great; I can't play 3D games, but a) I program on this laptop, not game, and b) it runs Linux; how high should your hopes really be?

I previously had a T21, and yes, the keyboard was a little better - I guess your mileage may vary how much worse you think it is.

Also, I'm not sure if you noticed, but the original poster seemed pretty clear about the intent to run Windows: this may bother you, but that doesn't mean it's a problem for someone else. For myself, I never intended to run Windows (much less Vista) on this laptop, but it seemed like an acceptable tradeoff for the rest of the laptop.

I hadn't thought about alternative keyboard layouts; that sucks. It's definitely something to take into account. Similarly I can't say anything about Lenovo support; definitely something else to take into account.

Re:I am not so enthusiastic

[PitaBred]

What Radeon? The 3D on The x1xxx and earlier chips are the only ones actually supported by the open source drivers. The fglrx drivers suck balls. Unfortunately, you're going to have to wait for 9.10 or 10.04 possibly to get good open-source acceleration on Radeon 2xxx/3xxx/4xxx/5xxx chips

Re:I am not so enthusiastic

[yuhong]

9.10 will be released soon, certainly by the end of this month. I think you can try the beta now, I think.

Re:I am not so enthusiastic

[amn108]

You do know your laptop has a second video card inside, right? An Intel GMA X4500, which is not that bad with 3D, and very suited for developing stuff anyway.

Re:I am not so enthusiastic

[karnal]

it runs Linux; how high should your hopes really be?

That's got to be the best Linux slogan I've heard in a while.

Re:I am not so enthusiastic

[jopet]

Yes, although it took me a while to figure that automatic card switching stunt out. As far as I remember the Intel card was crap too, so I switched to the ATI card in the BIOS. Maybe I should go back to Intel.

Re:I am not so enthusiastic

[PitaBred]

Yeah, but I'm just not sure what drivers are going to be in it. I know for a fact that the DRI code isn't going to be in there for the 600/700 series chips, that'll be kernel 2.6.32 at the earliest.

If big is OK

[joggle]

I've loved my HP HDX series laptop. Now, it's probably the largest laptop you will ever buy, but for development it is awesome. It has an 18.4" display, built-in blue ray ROM, and two internal hard drives and an e-sata port for a hot-swappable external. I can easily run two virtual machines at the same time on it (using Vista as the host operating system) and there's enough screen space to arrange your development environment however you want.

If that is too large for you they also have a 16" version of the laptop.

As for its portability, I have hauled it all over Europe via backpack (using one of the giant Rick Steves traveling backpacks). It worked for me, but I'm young and didn't have to walk miles with it or anything. It was just small enough to be used on all the flights I've taken on so far. If it was any larger you'd have to be in business class to use it without interfering with others.

The base 18" version comes in at around $1200.

Re:If big is OK

[pz]

I've loved my HP HDX series laptop. Now, it's probably the largest laptop you will ever buy, but for development it is awesome. It has an 18.4" display, built-in blue ray ROM, and two internal hard drives and an e-sata port for a hot-swappable external. I can easily run two virtual machines at the same time on it (using Vista as the host operating system) and there's enough screen space to arrange your development environment however you want.

If that is too large for you they also have a 16" version of the laptop.

As for its portability, I have hauled it all over Europe via backpack (using one of the giant Rick Steves traveling backpacks). It worked for me, but I'm young and didn't have to walk miles with it or anything. It was just small enough to be used on all the flights I've taken on so far. If it was any larger you'd have to be in business class to use it without interfering with others.

The base 18" version comes in at around $1200.

Each to his own. My laptop, that I use for development, has one major criterion: it must be light, because I carry it around with me everywhere. Less important criteria: it must have a full-sized keyboard (so no netbooks). The sweet spot with those two criteria are things like the HP Elite series, such as the 2510p that I have right now. Not the fastest notebook around, and lacks many of the hot swapping features that the OP requested, but when I need stuff that the OP listed, I am invariably sitting at a desk, and a desktop computer does a much better job. More reliable too. For anything that requires serious computation, I ssh into my desktop and do it there. My laptop, as a result, weighs less than 3 lbs, and I can carry it with me everywhere.

Laptops are for portability. Desktops are for everything else. Why confound the two?

Re:If big is OK

[ProppaT]

I've never understood most peoples complaints about larger laptops. I buy 17" laptops exclusively and carry them everywhere I go. I think my current one is about 8.5lbs. Once I put it in my bag and throw it over my shoulder, it doesn't bother me one bit...and even if I did, the slight discomfort would be justified by the added resolution (1920x1200) and power under the hood when I actually had to use the computer. You can actually get a pretty powerful system on the cheap if you opt for a 17" too...I'm assuming it's just easier to fit it all in a larger case and cool it. As you said, to each their own, but it's actually counter productive for me to try to do real work on a display that small.

$800 Give away

[iCantSpell]

This is the MSI GX630 specs. It's cheap, has metal casing, great battery, and is quality built.

Color Black w/ Red trim | Operating System Windows Vista Home Premium | CPU Type AMD Athlon X2 QL-62(2.0GHz) | Screen 15.4" WXGA | Memory Size 4GB DDR2 | Hard Disk 250GB | Optical Drive DVD Super Multi | Graphics Card NVIDIA GeForce 9600M GT | Video Memory 512MB DDR3 VRAM | Communication Modem, Gigabit LAN and WLAN | Card slot 1 x Express Card | Dimensions 14.73" x 9.69" x 1.05-1.40" | Weight 5.6 lbs. | CPU | CPU Type AMD Athlon X2 | CPU Speed QL-62(2.00GHz) | CPU L2 Cache 1MB | Chipset | Chipset NVIDIA MCP77 | Display | Screen Size 15.4" | Wide Screen Support Yes | Display Type Wide XGA | Resolution 1280 x 800 | Operating Systems | Operating System Windows Vista Home Premium | Graphics | GPU/VPU NVIDIA GeForce 9600M GT | Video Memory 512MB DDR3 VRAM | Graphic Type Dedicated Card | Hard Drive | HDD 250GB | HDD Interface SATA | Memory | Memory 4GB | Memory Spec 2GB x 2 | Optical Drive | Optical Drive Type DVD Super Multi | Optical Drive Interface Integrated | Communications | Modem 56K | LAN 10/100/1000Mbps | WLAN 802.11b/g/n Wireless LAN | Bluetooth Yes | Ports | Card Slot 1 x Express Card | USB 3 x USB 2.0 (3rd port shared with eSATA) | IEEE 1394 1 | Video Port 1 x VGA, 1 x HDMI | Audio Ports Yes | Audio | Audio HD Audio quality, Dolby Digital Live | Speaker 2 Speakers (2W) | Input Device | Touchpad Yes | Keyboard Standard | Supplemental Drive | Card Reader 4-in-1 Card Reader (SD/MMC/MS/MS Pro) | Webcam 2.0MP | Power | AC Adapter 120-watt AC adapter | Battery 6-cell lithium ion | Physical spec | Dimensions 14.73" x 9.69" x 1.05-1.40" | Weight 5.6 lbs. | Manufacturer Warranty | Parts 3 years limited | Labor 3 years limited

Re:ehh

[Hortensia Patel]

Build quality? Really?

My MBP's keyboard backlight was misbehaving within a couple of months of buying it. The machine regularly overheated playing games. The motherboard fried itself and needed replacement after a couple of years. The DVD drive is now extremely fussy about recognizing an inserted disc.

The last two Dell laptops I've owned each lasted well over 5 years with no problems.

Macs may have their advantages, but IMHO build quality is not one of them. You know, to be brutally honest.

Virtualizing is "almost" the answer

[erroneus]

But as most/many people know, a virtualized Windows9x installation often doesn't work particularly well. In VirtualBox, it all but doesn't work at all because of the way "idle" time is handled. (I don't recall having much trouble using VMWare workstation long ago however)

Virtualizing instead of multi-booting is a far better idea for me. I use Windows XP on rare occasion and I definitely don't like taking my Linux down to run another OS.

Re:Virtualizing is "almost" the answer

[maccodemonkey]

I use VMWare Fusion on OS X and Windows 98 virtualizes perfectly.

Re:Virtualizing is "almost" the answer

[Fearless96]

I'm pretty sure the CPU idle problem can be fixed. Throw "windows 98 cpu idle driver" at a search engine. I fixed the same problem when running Windows 95 on Virtual PC by loading a driver.

Re:Virtualizing is "almost" the answer

[jim_v2000]

If Virtualbox won't work, use VirtualPC. It runs just fine in that.

Re:Virtualizing is "almost" the answer

[Gothmolly]

Get "rain" or any of those other "issue NOOP when the system is idle" freeware packages.

requirements

[Gary W. Longsine]

A well made laptop needs a "port replicator" or "docking station" like a fish needs a bicycle. (Gloria Steinem reference unavoidable.)

Re:requirements

[multisync]

A well made laptop needs a "port replicator" or "docking station" like a fish needs a bicycle

The presence of a docking station port is hardly an indication that a laptop is not well made.

Plenty of users - myself included - have need for a larger and/or dual-monitor display and full keyboard for some tasks, while valuing comfort and portability the rest of the time (like when reading Slashot). Docking stations are not absolutely necessary to achieve this, but make it a lot more convenient.

When evaluating how well-made a laptop is, I look at things like how the keys feel, how responsive the touch pad is, how bright and sharp the display is, how the speakers sound, how the lid feels when opening and closing it. How hot it gets.

I also look at what type of connectors it has. Having a docking station connector is a plus.

Re:requirements

[drsmithy]

A well made laptop needs a "port replicator" or "docking station" like a fish needs a bicycle.

Can you direct me towards a laptop capable of driving two 30" LCDs without a docking station ?
Can you explain to me why I should have to go through the annoyance of plugging in a half dozen cables every time I sit down at one of the three desks I regularly work at ?

A well made a laptop doesn't need a docking station ? Any laptop that _doesn't_ have an option for a docking station is a consumer toy.

Re:requirements

[jim_v2000]

Because well-made laptops automagically hook themselves up to your monitor, keyboard, mouse, printer, power, etc when you set them down at home?

Re:requirements

[hattig]

Docking stations are not absolutely necessary to achieve this, but make it a lot more convenient.

I've found the hassle of getting the laptop to dock cleanly or release is roughly the same amount of time that it would take to plug in/out the two USB devices and display that you've mentioned. It also takes up too much space on your desk (the Dell POS dock work supplied extends backwards horribly, meaning you can't have the docked laptop and a keyboard in front of it!).

I can spare the five seconds to plug in a few devices on the desk. The only benefit is that finding the power cable that falls on the floor when unplugged isn't an issue with a dock which is always plugged in. The other argument is that the dock is designed to position the laptop in an ergonomic position - not that the brick of a Dell dock does that.

Re:requirements

[jim_v2000]

Turn your sarcasm detector up.

Re:requirements

[camperslo]

Can you direct me towards a laptop capable of driving two 30" LCDs without a docking station ?

It is highly unlikely that someone with a budget allowing dual 30" displays (and that's just for one desk - you mentioned three), would be limited to $1200 for the laptop.

This guy is running Windows 98, Ubuntu and XP Pro. How's the drivers situation for running the two 30" displays (plus the laptops' own screen) on those OSes? Can Windows 98 and XP run much more than a debugger on the second screen?

This guy could no-doubt do fine on a laptop supporting just one decent external display.
He could also easily find a laptop with better than double his current battery life without resorting to the added size/weight/clutter found in units with removable optical drives. Then he'd get the longer runtime in a sleaker package and never be stuck without his optical drive.

Avoiding wires? Use wireless networking, print serving and added storage. See the Apple Time Capsule. (Windows is supported) Use one USB cable to a powered hub for most other devices, even a USB floppy drive. Having an internal webcam averts cabling.

Either a PC or Apple laptop could fill his need. A MB or MBP would provide the most options, also including support for simple automatic backups as well as OS X, Unix, and iPhone/iPod touch development.
XCode can share the compiling work with other machines.

If I were in his position I'd scrounge another LCD from Ebay to keep going for now, then save up a bit more and with a higher-end MacBook Pro. It'd be a bit more money initially, but would also bring back a higher salvage/resale value next time around. If it's for actual paying development work, the better tools certainly are justified. Do a clever iPhone app in spare time, maybe it'll pay for all of the hardware.

He'll likely have problems trying to run any new machine under Windows 98, so he'll probably end up with it in a VM such as Virtual Box (OSS). It'll support running Ubuntu and other versions of Windows as needed, and can be hosted on Ubuntu, OS X, or Windows. Considering that it isn't always possible to predict where/how one might need to get net access on a laptop, it would be wise to only use either Ubuntu or OS X as the host OS, and keep all versions of Windows safely litterboxed in the VM.

Re:requirements

[RollingThunder]

So your laptop has multiple monitor connections on the back?

For me, that's the main thing a dock provides; both VGA and DVI, so that I can run multiple monitors.

Re:requirements

[AmiMoJo]

Docking stations made sense years ago when there were multitudes of different connectors, but these says you can get the same functionality from a single USB hub and a VGA/DVI cable. Actually, you can even get USB->VGA/DVI now.

Re:requirements

[hazydave]

My HP dv9500 (older model... but same applies to newer ones) offers your choice of VGA or HDMI, GbE, three USBs, Bluetooth and 802.11n, and some kind of docking connector. Given the internal stuff, a docking module was never that interesting, this may have been traded for eSATA on some of the newer models, which I'd find more useful, personally. This has a 1680x1050 display... I'd go for 1920x1200 today, and if I could afford it, quad instead of dual processor. This one ran me $1280 back in December of 2007.

And, like most 17" models, dual internal drives (I cranked it up to 640GB... that includes both 64-bit Vista and Ubuntu Studio, with extra partitions for various sorts of video capture, though that's a bit low compared to the 3TB internal on my desktop, clearly one can go higher nowadays) and a flash card reader (unless you're married to Compact Flash). And Firewire. This is the unit I use very often for both HW and SW development.

Re:requirements

[Allador]

That is a completely absurd statement.

My docking station has 7 wires running out of it. Without the docking station, I would have to connect and disconnect all 7 of those wires every time (multiple times per day) that I arrive at or leave from the office.

There isn't a laptop on earth whose keyboard can match my MS Natural, or a proper optical mouse. Not to mention the 24" screens and real speakers.

Generally the only people who can use the laptop full time without external keyboard/mouse/displays are lightweight users, people who only use it a couple hours per day.

Re:requirements

[Allador]

That's ridiculous.

A typical power user on a laptop (like a developer) has the following:

1 x power
1 x ethernet
1 x speakers
1 x keyboard
1 x mouse
1or2 x external displays

I know not everyone is going to have 2 external displays, but even without, that's 6 cables to plug in. You can reduce it by one if you use a USB hub.

Plus most laptops dont have dual-density DVI ports (that support two 1920x1200 external displays) on them, only on the docking station.

Re:MacBook Pro

[adriccom]

The docking station for Mac laptops is third party: http://www.bookendzdocks.com/

I have lusted for one for years...

Re:ehh

[tsm_sf]

2/3 of his requirements assume USB doesn't exist. Fuck yerb!

one at a time

[Gary W. Longsine]

Well, there are people here who have deep experience with many models of laptops, simultaneously. Typically this comes as a result of being involved with large enterprises, which buy thousands every year. Then there's the one I use, on the basis of that experience (a MacBook Pro). Frankly, soliciting advice from people who have experience with one laptop every three years or so, seems quaint.

Re:ehh

[Abreu]

Isn't Grub2 one of the features of Ubuntu Karmic Koala?

Re:ehh

[thegreatemu]

make sure you get the extended warranty then - I've had to replace the battery, hard drive, dvd player, and screen of my macbook, and this thing doesn't even get used when I'm not travelling.

Licensing

[funkybunny]

You might have a problem with licensing, as if either of your original Windows licenses were OEM, you can't transfer them to new hardware. Not that I'm a stickler myself exactly, but Windows 95 (which you'll have to virtualise as you probably won't get hardware support for it any more). Or you can use a free virtulisation solution. My brother swears by the Sun one, but I'm not too sure about the Windows 95 support on it. My work supplies me a Dell Latitude 630 and I think it's barely adequate. The 830 is better, but they're still heavy and the battery life isn't great. I like Mac's, but you'd still run into a license issue unless you own a full copy of Windows XP, and I'm yet to see a docking station on a Mac. As far as I know you can't get full versions of XP any more, and if you did the $$$ mean more you spend on software the less you have to spend on hardware. I'd go with the ThinkPad myself. I have an old one I use at home, 1440*900 resolution, docking station etc. Runs dual monitors under Windows and unix really well and solid as.

Re:Licensing

[jim_v2000]

Pft....I don't see any licensing police running around checking vm's or laptops, so I'd just install it and not worry about it.

For professionals?

[juventasone]

There are surprisingly few professional notebook lines with a proper dock available.

• Dell Latitude
• HP Compaq/Elitebook
• Lenovo T-Series

Any of these I recommend over home/gaming/entertainment equipment.

Re:For professionals?

[CompMD]

I love my Dell Latitude D630. Several engineers I work with envy it. It has a 2.2GHz Core2 Duo, 4GB RAM, 80GB Seagate Momentus 7200rpm hard drive, Quadro NVS 256MB dedicated graphics, DVDRW, 1440x900 screen, 5 hour battery life, and it dual boots Fedora 10 and Windows XP. Fedora runs fabulously well on it, and it is fast enough to compile projects pretty quickly, like building Android in less than 30 minutes. Its also extremely well built, and has a very solid feel to it. For a serious engineer on the road, I haven't seen anything that beats the D630. I think it has been replaced by the E6400.

Re:For professionals?

[Hurricane78]

I think you meant

Any of these I recommend over home/gaming/entertainment laptop equipment.

^^ I still can't imagine using a laptop for actual work. The tiny non-ergonomic keyboards and screen are just... it's not possible to take them seriously. Anything below 1600x1200 or 1920x1080 — with a DPI that is not so high because of such small screen dimensions that it does not make a difference anyway — is useless.

Re:For professionals?

[j_sp_r]

I would also advise the professional lines. They are much better built. I just got a HP EliteBook 8530W and it's awesome! It runs Linux really well (it even says it supports suse), only the fingerprint reader doesn't work because of the TPM chip.
It has a swappable dvd player (you can put a HD in it), but you can also buy a extra battery that covers the whole bottom of the laptop and gives around 10 hours of usage time. Screen estate is 1680x1050 or 1920x1280. And it is FAST! The only downside is, that it is really expensive normally (got a good deal from the University).

Re:For professionals?

[PipingSnail]

The Dell Precision laptop series all supporting docking (D-Dock port replicator).

The hardware is excellent, as is the build quality.

Mine (a Dell Precision M6300) has 4GB RAM, 1920x1200 17" screen, 110GB disk, Core 2 Centrino at 2.X Ghz. Good track pad, good keyboard, matte screen (despite some other comments on here about glossy being OK, they are wrong, you want the matte screen), lots of USB ports, will dual screen easily using the ports (even through the docking station), etc.

You can't buy them new for the price the OP wants, but you can buy them on Ebay, often in very good condition, for the price the user wants.

I concur with those that say widescreens and laptops suck for development. They do, but if you want/need a laptop for development and you don't want a Macbook Pro, this is the one to buy (currently its M6400, superceding the M6300).

My previous laptop, a Dell Inspiron 8000, purchased in 2000, is still working, the only niggles being shift and control keys that are slowing failing due to the aluminium oxide build up on the key contacts. Dell's are reliable and don't die (witness the tales of dying Macs elsewhere on this thread). And of course this machine has a proper 4:3 screen rather than a widescreen, so much nicer to use - sadly the market doesn't cater to developers in that respect.

Re:For professionals?

[RedK]

I guess that's why they put fancy display output ports and USB ports on laptop, so you can connect it to full size keyboards and monitors...

Re:For professionals?

[Doctor Faustus]

There are surprisingly few professional notebook lines with a proper dock available.
Do you really need one anymore? If you have built-in Bluetooth, all you need to plug in is power and a monitor (keyboard and mouse will work just by being nearby), and you get dual-screen from the laptop.

Why is it that Dell's professional laptops all only have VGA for video output? I understand that the HDMI port on my Dell Studio isn't appropriate for business, but shouldn't it be DVI?

Of course, most of the Dell LCD monitors here at my office connect with VGA (only), too, which makes no sense.

TROLL???? Moderator, are you on Crack?

[tonywestonuk]

Please remind me exactly why my post is troll...

Re:TROLL???? Moderator, are you on Crack?

[MrHanky]

It's about the 50th comment recommending a Macbook, despite the other 50 comments noting that a Macbook doesn't qualify for any of the OP's needs. It's a shame that buying a Mac comes with an EULA demading you work as a freelance PR agent for Apple. Also, it's a shame that you morons will recommend buying a Mac even when it blatantly isn't fit for the job.

Re:TROLL???? Moderator, are you on Crack?

[Gothmolly]

Maybe you pissed someone off, or are a douche, and they modbombed you.

Re:TROLL???? Moderator, are you on Crack?

[ThousandStars]

It's about the 50th comment recommending a Macbook, despite the other 50 comments noting that a Macbook doesn't qualify for any of the OP's needs. To be fair, a MacBook Pro gets closer than you think, as stated in this comment and its children. The relevant question to problems like the OPs is often, "Are you dealing with the relevant parameters?" If the answer is "no," what should you be dealing with? That's what comments like the linked one are dealing with.

It's a shame that buying a Mac comes with an EULA demading you work as a freelance PR agent for Apple.

I don't truck with fanboys, but that doesn't mean a MBP shouldn't at least be in the running.

Re:TROLL???? Moderator, are you on Crack?

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Also, it's a shame that you morons will recommend buying a Mac even when it blatantly isn't fit for the job.

... even though most of those posts showed why it would be.

Re:TROLL???? Moderator, are you on Crack?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ditto on that. And I'd just like to add that we have a macbook at work for porting. It is easily the worst platform to code on for one straight reason: everything is done the Apple way. Libraries are in weird locations, a variety of things are never updated properly, makefiles just don't work on half the time because Apple wants you to use their awful IDE or rewrite your makefile in some obscure way. Perhaps the worst aspect is the Apple OpenGL support. Apple uses some sort of bizzaro wolrd implememntation that behaves completely different from every other OpenGL distrobution out there. As it is we can literally update our windows port by over-writing the .cpp and .h files from the updated version we coded in linux to teh windows visual studio project, open up VS and rebuild it. At worst we get a few UTF8 warnings and perhaps a minor "MSVCC doesn't support that feature" which requires a few simple alterations. Porting updates to the Mac almost constantly ends up with the software operating completely differently from every other platform, textures go weird or lighting will be reversed all the sudden etc. At this point we are actually thinking of dropping official OSX support completely as it has proven to be such a total drain of time to constantly adjust things we really shouldn't have to be touching at all. I'm seriously hoping Macs just go away again and we can go back to just worrying about Linux and Windows interoperability.

Re:TROLL???? Moderator, are you on Crack?

[falconwolf]

It's about the 50th comment recommending a Macbook, despite the other 50 comments noting that a Macbook doesn't qualify for any of the OP's needs.

It doesn't qualify for any of the OP's needs? OP says "The extra battery option is especially appreciated"... Well looky there, an external battery. OP says "Docking station / port replicator: I like having my home setup with keyboard, network, and dual screens (a necessity)", looky there, a dock. And without a dock I have several connections to my MacBook Pro. I even had an external monitor connected, showing an extended desktop. OP says "It runs Linux", looky there, "How to install Ubuntu 9.04 on an Intel-based Mac laptop", which I plan on doing.

About the only thing a MacBook/Pro does not qualify for on OP's list is a hot swappable drive bay, however there are external drives for that. Right now I have 3 external drives connected to my MBP and I could connect more.

Falcon

Re:TROLL???? Moderator, are you on Crack?

[MrHanky]

Sorry, but whenever someone brings up the claim that OS X is FreeBSD, I just can't take them seriously. It just isn't. Not the kernel, nor the architecture, nor the userspace tools. Oh, and the "BSD style" terminal window the parent talks about is running GNU bash by default these days. Basically, you guys act like clueless morons doing PR work. Why else would you pretend OS X is something which it isn't?

Re:ehh

[onepoint]

I happen to agree with this poster about the dell laptops. I have had 3, the most current one I run is an Inspiron 8500 and it works very well. the others were also dell laptops.

I think the most important thing I do with my laptop is the cleaning, I bust it open every year, take out all the dust an 4 times a year I just remove the fan and blow that dust out.

it has survived decently well.

What's the best developer's laptop?

[falconwolf]

I ask Slashdot: What is your pick for best developer's laptop under $1,200, considering the features above?"

The problem I have with this is the price. I too wanted a new laptop for development, and photography. After making a list of requirements, from a fast CPU to a fast and large hard disk drive, I looked at a bunch of laptops. The cheapest laptop I found that met the requirements was more than twice as expensive. Prices have come down since then and if you have an open mind on the hardware and software then I suggest you look at Apple's 13" Macbook Pro, it's base price is $1200 but of course if you want to run Windows on it then there's the price on an MS Windows license. You also have to consider the docking station, Apple doesn't make any though third parties do such as BookEndz, which adds almost $300 to the cost. A simple MacBook will be cheaper but if you want to run just MS Windows or Linux then don't bother with a Mac.

Falcon

Re:What's the best developer's laptop?

[Linker3000]

One of the 'hangups' that is easily fixed is that of desiring a bay-based extra battery. Instead of having limit your laptop choices to find what you want, just get an external battery pack, like the the U20, which will plug into almost any laptop AND also has a 5V USB output. If you were already going to hawk around a spare battery (or the DVD drive when the battery is inserted) then this is a win-win PLUS you have a generic power source rather than one that just fits your laptop.

http://www.umpcportal.com/2009/05/umpc-accessory-test-ultimate-netbook-u2o-universal-power-pack-and-umpc-holder-10-off/

Re:ehh

[atlasdropperofworlds]

I go for pixels. As many pixels as I can get for the price. I'll forgo a lot of other things except perhaps processor speed, because compiling times can be/are very long.

Unfortunately, it's very hard to get 1920x1200 (WUXGA) for $1200 or less.

I suppose the dell studio xps can be about the limit, and gives good enough pixelage (1920x1080) for about $1250. Thinkpads are pretty much the same (unless you're buying in canada, then don't bother - thinkpads are $1k more expensive there for some reason).

I have a guess

[NoYob]

From the question:

Windows 98 (I have really old embedded software compilers that only run on 98, and yes I have tried every trick in the book to make them run on Linux)...

If can't get it to run on Linux, what will make it run on Mac OS?

Your post does have a bit of Mac Fanboy feel to it - just saying.

Re:I have a guess

[PhunkySchtuff]

http://vmware.com/

http://parallels.com/

http://virtualbox.org/

Take your pick, any one of them will run Windows 98 on Mac OS X.

Re:ehh

[siliconincdotnet]

Same here, after years of owning PPC macs and never having a problem, I've had endless trouble from my MBPs.

The first one I had was a first generation one and I kinda expected the worst, but it lasted three years with two trips into Apple Service (logic board replaced twice). The new one (last of the previous body style MBPs) is garbage though, it's been non-stop odd behavior that I can't pin down to any one thing. Crashes consistently and runs slowly with Linux or OSX. Won't buy another one.

Get an Ubuntu netbook Remix to go with it.

[operator_error]

My setup is a little different then what the OP is looking for, but it works well for me, in case anyone else is interested.

For 300 euros, I bought an Asus Eee 1000HE several months ago. The honest 6+ hrs battery life plus its weight makes it truly ultraportable, since I don't need to carry any cord or brick in my backpack. The Ubuntu Netbook interface works well on the small screen, and the CPU is efficient running Linux, & Firefox, etc. Skype audio/video doesn't work well I find (the Ubuntu Skype version is old), but Ekiga SIP does. In reality, the hours in-use is greater than just 6, because inevitably I'll get distracted, eat lunch, etc., so the sleep mode kicks in. I relax knowing the little thing has a fully encrypted hard disk, from these instructions:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=7489558&postcount=13 ..and also knowing that it is secure from malware, without the need to operate and pay for anti-virus software.

I cannot imagine running the XP OS (tax) that came with the unit, XP the interface seems like it would be too clumsy on the small screen, and with anti-virus etc. would slow things too much.

I have another 300 euro Compaq 15" notebook with a similarly installed Ubuntu OS so for me, the question when I leave the door for the day is: Do I need the larger screen, or true portability? If I'm just reading docs at the cafe, I love the Asus Eee PC. Each has a Logitech wireless mouse VX450 and a tiny USB nub that remains in-place 24/7. Its critical, (the batteries seem to last 1 year)

One key to everything working out so well, is my Dropbox acct which auto syncs files across home folders. In this way, I use the best suited of my two portable PCs for the day (big screen + brick, or more portable.) (Spider-oak has a better privacy policy than Dropbox though, and I'm meaning to switch). I figure both my Asus and Compaq cost less than half the price of Apple's cheapest notebook. But then in my work, I am happy using Gnome & firefox, etc.

For managing the Win 98 of the OP, I agree Virtual Box is quite capable, free, and runs well on Ubuntu. But not really on the cheap notebooks I described.

Value Line and save.

[NoYob]

Lenovo has a "Value Line" that has the features that you need. The link has a comparison chart with the "Thinkpad" line.

If you can, why not save a few bucks and get the "Value Line" or be able to spend the extra money on more RAM, peripherals, etc.... or beer? I see a few features with the Thinkpad line that may be unnecessary for a developer.

Re:Value Line and save.

[outZider]

The Value Line lacks the nice ThinkVantage tools like System Update, gets rid of the Trackpoint in most cases, the spill free keyboard in most cases, and the keyboard and trackpad aren't as good. As much as I enjoy saving money, playing with a VL for a few minutes convinced me to continue buying ThinkPad.

BookEndz for the docking station nerds

[Gary W. Longsine]

That's clearly too much work for these docking station whiners, try the direct approach: BookEndz

Hey upstream docking station whiners! Have you heard of this new fangled thingy called Google? You might like it.

Re:BookEndz for the docking station nerds

[flydpnkrtn]

...note that in the forum thread linked to in my post they discuss Bookendz... and they talk about how ghetto and overpriced the damn things are...

docking ports are a solution to a non-issue

[Gary W. Longsine]

You're cracked.

xenon!

[Anonymous Coward]

I've found that laptops like the Asus G51 series (more or less designed for gaming) tend to be amazing for development as well. This is mostly due to the high quality of the individual parts, as well as a nice package, decent support, and redundancy built in, as there are 2 hard-drives built in, so you can run them in RAID 1.

Acer Aspire One

[Like2Byte]

Couldn't be much happier. When I'm in the office or home I hook up my USB keyboard/Mouse, my large monitor and 500G backup drive (for nightly backups of my subversion DB.).

When I'm out and about the long extension cord comes in handy. So does the two hour battery life. Sure, there are times when I really need to plug in and I can't so the trick is to keep your battery full (charge overnight) and when I hit the cafes I wait for the tables near the power plugs to empty out and jump on those tables. I've not had any problems. YMMV depending on location.

The small size really does mean portable. I've got 160G HD, 1.6G Hz ATOM CPU. Unless your compiling multi-million line projects, I find mine rather comfy. I built the entire boost library in ~1.5 hours.

Now for the killer: less than $300.00!! My last LT cost me almost $3,000.00 but was a PITA to lug around. It's still a fantastic machine but it's been relegated to the special projects heap. If this LT goes, who gives a crap. remove the HD, copy the data from the it (if it didn't make the nightly backups), buy another cheap-ass LT and move on with life.

It runs linux fine. I've been playing with SLAX lately (still a little flaky from a USB key, though) and it's exceeded my needs there, too. The Atheros WIFI card works great. (My HP never got the WIFI working.)

The only draw back I have with the device is its small screen resolution: 1024x600. Yes, that's six hundred.

Now, I've not done it but a friend of mine tells me his son runs WOW on his. I wouldn't run games as there isn't much in the way of cooling for the LT - no bottom fans. Just a large intake vent on the front and a exhaust port on the LHS.

Re:brutal honesty

[Hortensia Patel]

Expressing my personal opinion is not a logical fallacy. Reporting my personal experience is not a logical fallacy. My inferences regarding build quality drawn from that experience, while subject to the usual caveats about inductive reasoning, are no less reasonable than those drawn by the O.P.

So I'm a little mystified as to what on Earth you're complaining about.

Re:Compaq Presario 1655

[Jeremy Erwin]

And what do yo compile on it? How long does it take to build?

What sort of window manager does it use?

And how much does it weigh?

Re:ehh

[Jane Q. Public]

I am with Goldberg. MacBook Pro has very good Intel hardware, which means it is inherently a very nice Windows machine. Better hardware than a PC at the same price? When actual comparisons have been done (as several magazines now have), as opposed to FUD, it was found that the price difference was surprisingly little. Macs do tend to be a little more expensive for the same electronics, but at the same time their physical engineering is superior (that is something that is not under much dispute). And Mac hardware is probably more thoroughly tested together as a unit than any brand of PC. The beauty of the Mac, though, is that together with good hardware, you get the best of all worlds when it comes to software. I can (and do) boot up Windows so that it runs natively on my Mac, at full hardware speed, or, if I don't need all the speed, I can start the same instance of Windows up, fully functional including Internet connection and I/O, in a VM under OS X. And as far as OS X itself is concerned, I essentially have a Linux machine, with all common Linux tools available to me, with the additional plus of a superior UI. (Superior to Linux, that is. It is debatable whether the UI is superior to Windows, though some people feel that it is.) So, yeah... a MacBook, or at least a MacBook Pro, is indeed a superior developer's machine. Arguably better than any PC, because it gives you many more options. Want to use Windows for something? Go ahead. Want to use *nix for something? Go ahead. Want to use OS X for something? Go ahead. And they run Windows natively just as fast as a PC with similar hardware. I have Linux-style development tools, and Windows development tools, and OS X development tools, all on my MacBook. And I can even use them at the same time if I want. (Though the Windows tools will run a bit slower in a VM, but that is just the nature of the beast.) That is something that PCs just do not do... or at least definitely do not do well. So, no... unfortunately the "best" development notebooks will cost you more than $1200. If you are stuck with that budget, you are stuck with that budget. But you sure are missing out.

Enterprise, not consumer

[johneee]

Basically what the subject line says: stay away from anything you can get at Best Buy and you'll probably be golden. That means Lattitude not Inspiron from Dell, and so on. What you lose in 'features'. (better speakers, media buttons, graphics, shiny palmrests and so on) will be more than made up in quality

I know HP and Dell right now have extra battery 'slices' which can take your battery life over a full work day, and even into the 12 hour range, which is fantastic. Other accessories are mostly USB therse days, so not as much a concern for most as they might be for you.

MacBooks

[falconwolf]

make sure you get the extended warranty then - I've had to replace the battery, hard drive, dvd player, and screen of my macbook, and this thing doesn't even get used when I'm not travelling.

Some may frown on it but I always get an extended service plan. I got one with my HP, Gateways, and I got Applecare with my MacBook Pro. I used the plan, which I'm glad I had, with my HP. I bought it at Best Buy and when it failed twice in the first year, the first tyme the hard disk then the motherboard had to be replaced, all I did was take it down to Best Buy. A few hours after I took it down because of the hdd failed they called me saying it was ready. Now when the mobo failed they had to send it to another repair facility, so I was without for a week.

I had trouble with Gateway though, this was when even the Gateway stores only placed orders for delivery instead of carrying stock in stores. I kept on having to call Gateway for tech support, and the first question asked after I gave them the serial number was "has anything been installed?" Of course because I wanted to use it I did install software and peripherals. So to get support I'd have to do a clean install of Windows and only Windows. Of course the hard drive then motherboard failed so I couldn't install Windows so eventually tech support agreed to send me a new drive and arranged to have the computer picked up the second tyme.

Anyhow with both my HP and Gateways I had 2 hardware failures in the first year I owned them. The only problem I had with my MacBook the first year was Apple had sent me an older version of software which didn't run on the new Mac version. The second year, after 16 months, the graphics had to be replaced then at the end of the 2nd year the DVD drive had to be replaced. Two hardware failures in 2 years on my Mac versus 2 failures in the first year with HP and Gateway computers, hard disk drives and motherboards in both cases.

Falcon

Re:Dell Latitude E6400

[sqrt(2)]

I just ordered a Latitude E6400 to replace my personal laptop. I plan on putting Windows 7 on it when I get it, which usually improves battery life over Vista I've found.

It was either that or a Thinkpad T400 and after getting my hands on both to try out the Dell just felt better. It felt more durable, and I really liked the backlit keyboard. I've been reading that with a 9-cell the T400 gets better battery life, but as you mentioned you can get the slice battery (at the cost of extra weight of course) if 5 hours isn't enough.

Re:MacBook Pro

[Jeremy Erwin]

Bluetooth? 802.11n? You can plug in the displayport yourself.

I use both a Thinkpad t61p and MacBook Pro

[DrDitto]

I use both high-end laptops. Both have 15" screens.

MacBook Pro advantages:
+ much brighter screen
+ Nicer OS w/ native Unix support
+ trackpad is way better if you use trackpads

Lenovo Thinkpad t61p advantages:
+ 1920x1200 resolution fits *alot* of code on one screen
+ better build quality-- yes, I think the build quality is better than the macbook pro
+ its got the trackpoint (aka nipple) if you don't like the trackpad
+ much better keyboard

Re:ehh

[tomhudson]

Most of the "benefits" of the extra swappable drive bay are nullified in newer laptops.

Here's his list: CD/DVD R/W, extra battery, floppy drive, extra hard drive, memory card reader, etc

Floppy drives are obsolete

Since this is a developers' machine, a 17" should have 2 drive bays, so who needs to swap out drives? Failing that, use an external USB drive.

Memory card readers are built in nowadays.

If you're going to be lugging an extra battery around, just carry a spare.

So just go with the built-in DVD R/W, built in 4 USB ports, built-in 2nd hard drive, built-in card reader, etc. A grand should get you all this, including 4 gigs of ram and twin 500 gig hard drives.

Build quality? Really?

[falconwolf]

My MBP's keyboard backlight was misbehaving within a couple of months of buying it. The machine regularly overheated playing games. The motherboard fried itself and needed replacement after a couple of years. The DVD drive is now extremely fussy about recognizing an inserted disc.

The last two Dell laptops I've owned each lasted well over 5 years with no problems.

I have had the opposite experience, of 4 Windows PCs and 1 Linux PC I bought new and 3 Macs, 2 I bought used and the one I'm typing this on now bought new, I have had more problems with my PCs. I don't know why but I had the hard disk drive and motherboards fail on 3 PCs in the first year and had to replace the RAM in 2 in 2 years. The Macs are a different story though. I bought a Mac SE30, which were made in 1988-9, in 1992. It died in 2000, I don't know why it just wouldn't boot up. A few months later I bought a used PowerMac 7300/200, which was made in 1997. It refused to boot up in January 2006.

In the 2+ years I've owned the Mac I'm using now I've had 2 hardware failures. The first one was after I had it 16 months.

Two failures in 2 years is better than 2 failures in 1 year as is lasting at least 9 years.

Falcon

Re:Build quality? Really?

[PC and Sony Fanboy]

Heh, You're personal experience is rendered void by the vocal opposition of several others with opposing viewpoints. Isn't that the only sort of logic that fanboys understand? Or is that only the case when you're trying to make a point in your favor ... not defend yourself from criticism?

Re:Build quality? Really?

[jim_v2000]

Laptops are ALL sketchy pieces of shit, and if you get one that lasts more than a few years, it's the luck of the draw. I worked at a hardware support desk at a university, and we saw all kinds of laptops come through...Mac, Toshiba, Sony, Dell, Lenovo, etc etc etc. They all use the same innards, and they all wear out at about the same rate. The main difference in quality is the exterior.

I had a cheap ass Gateway laptop that lasted me for 4 years, while a friend's Macbook died within a few months. On the other hand, I've seen Macs last for years and "pc's" die after a few months.

Re:Build quality? Really?

[anagama]

Old macs that wouldn't boot: The "bios" battery is dead (probably). Those old macs won't boot with a dead battery -- well, I should qualify that: I once got a "won't boot" late 90s PowerMac to boot by making a holder for some AAA batteries and connecting them up. Then it booted fine. I don't know if the SE requires a battery or not to boot.

Re:Build quality? Really?

[PC and Sony Fanboy]

You mean, the surveys where customers respond about their subjective opinions? Yeah, totally factual, my mistake.

Almost anything will be powerful enough...

[CFD339]

If you're writing code, you need a platform that is well supported by your IDE. If you're writing for vs.net all the time, you probably don't want a Mac. Using Eclipse for Java work, then Mac is fine -- etc.

Since almost any product on the market will work from a power standpoint, look at the details of form. Is the case well made? A magnesium or aluminum case can mean less flex even with less weight. Consider the touch pad -- is it multi-touch? Is the keyboard comfortable?

Also, watch the resolution. One mistake I've made in the past is getting too high a resolution screen for my eyes. At 15" the best resolution for my eyesight is 1440x900, so having a higher res screen means the typeface is too small or it's fuzzy as I switch to a non-native resolution for the screen (windows does NOT cope with rescaled fonts well).

In terms of stability, reliability, and so on -- I find Acer and Gateway to be near the bottom of the line; ASUS makes great hardware but I've never been happy with their support or documentation and their software (for custom bits of hardware, bios updates, etc) is downright terrible. Dell makes some great stuff in the latitude line, but the inspiron stuff isn't well made Dell's support has been downright misleading to me on more than one occasion (documented and published). FWIW, My Latitude D820 has been outstanding even if Dell's support has been terrible. HP has some stuff out that looks pretty, as does Toshiba but neither appeals to me all that much.

I'm kind of in the same boat as you -- I'm ready to replace this D820 after nearly 4 years, but nothing on the market right now really impresses me. I'm waiting for this winter's new stuff based on Core i7 to see what that looks like in a laptop. I'm also going to evaluate Windows 7. If it's not substantially more comfortable and more maintainable than Vista, I'll have no choice but to switch to Mac.

 

Re:Almost anything will be powerful enough...

[Count Fenring]

I second you in being shocked and dismayed. If I had mod points, I'd have stayed mute to mod you up, sir.

Re:MacBook Pro

[flydpnkrtn]

Bluetooth and wireless are not an option where I work... we're in the process of getting accredited with the DoD.

...also don't forget about power, speakers, USB hub... come on, you've got to admit just walking into work and setting your laptop on a dock is a lot easier with less wear and tear on all those ports

Re:Non-glossy screen

[Gulthek]

I have a glossy screen macbook and use it for actual work all the time (including right now with my back to a window on the setting sun).

Re:ehh

[cheesybagel]

MacBooks, PC Laptops, they are all made by Compal and Quanta anyway.

EFI

[falconwolf]

Weeelll... you can't just nuke it and install anything yet. I tried to install only Linux on the Macbook I have only to find it uses EFI only, so until grub2 makes it into distros and it fully supports the Macbook EFI, you're stuck with having OS X around just to setup bootcamp (and emulate the regular BIOS, I guess)

You can install and use rEFIt on an Intel Mac. Of course it's a good idea to keep a bootable OS X partition if no other reason than to update firmware.

To tell the truth I don't know why anyone would pay for a Mac and not use OS X. I'm typing this on my MacBook Pro running Leopard now. I have the Snow Leopard DVD but haven't installed it yet. When I do though I will also install Ubuntu. I already have my hard disk drive partitioned with 2 partitions for OS X and Ubuntu and another one for the user home. Doing this I can use any and all user files in both OSes.

Falcon

Re:EFI

[thuerrsch]

You can install and use rEFIt on an Intel Mac. Of course it's a good idea to keep a bootable OS X partition if no other reason than to update firmware.

I've been running Ubuntu as my only OS on my MacBook for over 18 months now, without an OS X install and without rEFIt. Neither is essential for using a MacBook, and anybody who says anything to the contrary is clueless.

That said, I did boot my machine from the OS X installer DVD a couple of times to bless the Ubuntu partition into the EFI after reinstalling the system (following a hard disk upgrade and/or as a spring-cleaning measure). This wasn't strictly necessary, it just cut about 20 seconds from the boot time. With Grub2 having finally found its way into Karmic, even that won't be necessary any more.

As for firmware updates, these may require a running OS X install (which can be on an external drive). For my machine, however, there haven't been any updates that would have been relevant for Linux and there probably never will be.

To tell the truth I don't know why anyone would pay for a Mac and not use OS X.

Well, people are different, you know. I like my MacBook's look and feel, the slick and intelligent design, those little things like all the slots and connectors being on one side, the power adapter with its MagSafe mechanism (I tend to stumble over cables and to go berserk with vacuum cleaners), the touchpad with all its great little secrets ... Back when I bought my MacBook it didn't cost much more than a comparable high-end Windows notebook, like a Sony Vaio, with the added benefit that it's not a Sony (bah) and didn't come with a Vista tax (double-bah).

On the other hand, I don't have much love nor any need for OS X. I tried it, I didn't like it, it's somehow not compatible with the brain-half that's in command up in my head. Linux, while certainly not being for everybody, is just the right thing for me, the freedom, the power, even including the seemingly endless fight against numerous shortcomings great and small. I need that, all of it, I couldn't live without it. I don't want a computer that "just works", I want a computer that works exactly the way I want it to work, whatever it takes. And I've never been closer to that ideal than with Ubuntu on my MacBook. Which, by the way, works extremely well by now.

Re:EFI

[falconwolf]

I've been running Ubuntu as my only OS on my MacBook for over 18 months now, without an OS X install and without rEFIt. Neither is essential for using a MacBook, and anybody who says anything to the contrary is clueless.

You're right rEFIt isn't needed, nor did I say it was. Neither is a bootable OS X needed to run Ubuntu. It is needed to download and install firmware updates from Apple though. Here's someone asking if it's possible to get firmware for iSight without having OS X. It was posted two weeks ago yet there's no answer. Perhaps you can tell the person how? On the other hand even the Ubuntu MactelSupportTeamAppleIntelInstallation says "It is recommended that you keep an install of OS X, even if you do not plan to use it as a primary environment, so that you can install firmware updates in the future. (Such updates may be required for your Mac to continue to operate properly.)"

Back when I bought my MacBook it didn't cost much more than a comparable high-end Windows notebook, like a Sony Vaio, with the added benefit that it's not a Sony (bah) and didn't come with a Vista tax (double-bah).

Oh, I agree. When I comparison shopped both a Dell and an HP with similar specs to the MBP cost about $300 more. I said in another post the cheapest laptop with similar specs was only $50 less. I still can't see buying a Mac but not using OS X. Mine only had an 160 GB harddisk, and almost all of it was used, so I looked for the biggest internal replacement drive which was only 320 GB. There are bigger ones now but because I don't want to void the warranty, it's still covered under Applecare, I have to have an Apple authorized service provider install it and all those I know of in my area require upgraders to buy the disk from them. I upgraded it so I can run both OS X and Ubuntu.

On the other hand, I don't have much love nor any need for OS X.

I like both Linux and OS X. And though I don't know for sure now I may need OS X. I need, er want, a photo editor and GIMP does not cut it. One, it does not work with 16 bit colour depths never mind 24 or 32 bits. Gimp 2.6 supports some 16 bit stuff but not much, I already tried it. It does not work with CMYK, monitor profiles, or other things that well that print photographers need. While CinePaint does work with some of these, Ubuntu dropped support for it back at 7.4 I thing, so it is no longer in the repositories. I'm willing to try KDE's Krita, so I'll install both Gnome and KDE, but if it doesn't work then I'll need Photoshop and CS4 does not run in Linux. CS3 does partially and CS2 runs pretty good in WINE but CS4 doesn't.

Using OS X I can also test with it too. As I posted earlier, with Windows you can only develop for Windows. With Linux you can develop for Linux or Windows. And with Macs you can develop for Macs, Linux, and Windows.

Falcon

Re:EFI

[EvilTwinSkippy]

Actually, opening the case to replace the hard drive will not void your warranty. We used to do it all the time, at the blessing (and instruction) of our Apple Support reps when I was a network admin.

Same with RAM chips. Where it gets dicy are factory sealed items like iPods and iPhones where the only way to get them open is essentially with machine tools, and getting them back together involves industrial solvents and adhesive.

Re:EFI

[camperslo]

On the other hand, I don't have much love nor any need for OS X.

You do realize that iChat can replace what's behind you with a still or video and put you in an orgy...

Re:EFI

[falconwolf]

Actually, opening the case to replace the hard drive will not void your warranty. We used to do it all the time, at the blessing (and instruction) of our Apple Support reps when I was a network admin.

I know. When I wanted to replace my hard disk drive with a bigger one the first place I went to was an Apple store. I asked a Genus there if they could install a bigger one and I was told they do not sell or swap drives but that I could get a drive somewhere else. I was then told that I would have to have a place that does Apple authorized service swap the drives.

Same with RAM chips. Where it gets dicy are factory sealed items like iPods and iPhones where the only way to get them open is essentially with machine tools, and getting them back together involves industrial solvents and adhesive.

With my MBP users can add RAM themselves. The small booklet "Everything Mac" that came with my Mac shows how to add RAM. It does have a warning suggesting users have a certified tech add the RAM and says that Apple is not responsible if users try to install the RAM and damages the equipment. Here's an Apple support page on adding RAM to a MacBook. And here's one for MacBook Pros. Now if I add RAM before Applecare expires, in about 11 months, I will pay to have it installed. But if I still have my MBP afterwards and buy more RAM then I'll add it myself, I see no reason to pay someone else to add it if the warranty already expired.

Falcon

Re:ehh

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, nothing beats build quality of panasonic toughbook. I've had cf-48 with P4 for quite a few years now, and the only things that are not working as good as when it was new are battery (lasts around 1h, so it's not really mobile now) and ethernet card (fried by thunder, with half of my network hardware). Oh, and there's a bonus: when somebody says your laptop is crappy you can hit a wall/desk/that person with the working laptop and continue work as if nothing happened :)

Re:ehh OSX VM

[j-stroy]

I've been running "Parallels" VMs over OSX and have to say it has 'whelmed me enough to enthuse about it. It can VM OSX'n linux'n and Win 98 thru 7 concurrently from images which can be snapshot, written back, or left pristine after use (disposable OS) or by boot-time OS selection. The copy/paste and crossplatform filesystem accessibility is handy. I've given it some heavy lifting and it works for me, even with only total 1GB RAM before I upgraded. For the expansion issue, I use a serviceman's combo USB to IDE & SATA device, and leave the drives open, also one or 2 in enclosures.

Dell Studio 1555

[Anonymous Coward]

I had the same question a while ago... Except that I do a decent amount of graphic design and video work too.

I went with:

Dell Studio 1555
I upgraded the screen to the high-res one, which gives you a lot more code on-screen at a time. Context is massively useful in terms of productivity and quality.
Changed the HDD to the 7200rpm version
Added the back-lit keyboard, which really is a god-send at 2am when you're coding the dark to let the family sleep
Upgraded the battery to the long-life one (6 or 9 cell? I can't remember)
Made sure that the CPU had hardware virtualisation enabled (Intel arbitrarily turns it off for some models... Look for the list at Ars.

The thing has 802.11n, VGA out + HDMI, mini Firewire, card reader, a few USB ports, and a nice eSATA port, which is ideal for your hot-swappable storage requirement (an eSATA hot-swappable enclosure/backplane should be dirt cheap). Frankly, I'm struggling to see what additional use a dock actually would be.

It's a nice laptop that does the job reliably and without any irritating quirks. Honestly, it's the best I've ever purchased, and I'm very happy.

Re:brutal honesty

[halltk1983]

You insulted his Mac, so he's offended and on the attack.


Heathen.

13" MacBook Pro

[PhunkySchtuff]

The 13" MacBook Pro fits within your budget ($1199), has hardware virtualisation so can run any Intel-based operating system under VMware Fusion, Parallels Desktop or Virtual Box
You don't get a hot-swap Ultrabay, but you probably don't really need the added complexity. It has a built-in 7-hour battery, has a built-in SD Card reader, has a built-in SuperDrive (Dual-layer DVD±RW, CD-RW) It doesn't have an option for a Floppy Drive from Apple, but any USB floppy will work with it (seriously, does anyone use them anymore? Even Windows doesn't need floppies to load drivers from during the initial install).
It doesn't have an option for a docking station from Apple, but it has all the ports on one side of the machine, rather than at the rear, so it's very easy to plug and unplug - I do this daily and don't miss not having a docking station. If you NEED a docking station, there's a 3rd party one from BookEndz

It has outstanding hardware build quality, comes with a fantastic development environment for free, and can run any of the open-source ones as well, can run Windows XP SP2+ natively on the bare metal, but who wants to reboot these days, so it'll run everything back to DOS in virtualisation. It will also open you up to a new user experience and a new operating environment that you may just end up liking. If you don't you format the drive and install Linux or Windows instead...

Re:ehh

[halltk1983]

Did IT for a Fire Department at one time. One of the guys "accidentally" backed over his ToughBook with a fire truck, and it worked fine after. I second the build quality.

Docking ports â essential

[PhunkySchtuff]

I've found that plugging and unplugging three cables, all at the side of the machine, not the rear, on a daily basis was actually a lot easier than dealing with a docking station. The docking station can change the hardware profile of a machine, makes it hard to put the machine to sleep when it's in the standard laptop configuration and then wake it on the dock, has a large and fiddly connector on the bottom of the laptop that always gets crap inside it and can be prone to breakage when users aren't docking and undocking them properly.

On the other hand, having three or four cables (power, display, USB, Ethernet) is pretty quick to connect/disconnect, doesn't change the hardware profile of the machine and can be hot pugged/unplugged without having to tell the OS that anything is happening.

Re:Docking ports â essential

[falconwolf]

I've found that plugging and unplugging three cables, all at the side of the machine, not the rear, on a daily basis was actually a lot easier than dealing with a docking station.

I don't have or use a dock for my laptop now but I did with my first laptop and I'd rather have one. I've thought of getting a BookEndz dock for my next laptop, I've had my current MBP 2 years without one and would rather save my money than buy one for it now.

On the other hand, having three or four cables (power, display, USB, Ethernet) is pretty quick to connect/disconnect, doesn't change the hardware profile of the machine and can be hot pugged/unplugged without having to tell the OS that anything is happening.

When I had a Windows PC Windows complained when I unplugged or turned off a USB device without telling Windows I was going to, and now that I use OS X Leopard it does the same. Sure devices can be unplugged but OSes still complain.

Falcon

EFI

[falconwolf]

anyone have experience with how well the EFI-enabled grub (or any other bootloader that can run on a modern Mac) works?

I've read rEFIt is good, so an EFI enabled bootloader isn't needed for a Mac. I'm getting ready to install Ubuntu on my Mac. Right now I'm using Leopard but after I do a fresh install of Snow Leopard I'll install rEFIt then Ubuntu.

Falcon

Not Exactly Every Trick

[Nom du Keyboard]

and yes I have tried every trick in the book to make them run on Linux)

You haven't tried every trick in the book. You've tried every trick you know.

Why don't you go ahead and list your compilers here and maybe some other reader knows a new trick for you.

Fujitsu...

[mrops]

...At that price point I would definitely consider fujitsu S series. I have their older s2110 so about time I look at something new myself, I loved that cd/dvd comes out and in goes another battery. With 3.3 lb weight, its one of the lightest I have used. Full keyboard only second to thinkpad is a plus, screen is 12 inch or so, thats a bit of a bummer, but I choose portability over larger screen.

Quick looks says Fujitsu this with S6520 the new one. I just love this, and my 2 year old has tested this more than folks at fujitsu lab.

13" MacBook Pro has what you need

[PCheese]

13" MacBook Pro satisfies your requirements for $1200.

[1] Drive bay replaced with built-in 7 hour battery life and SD card reader. If you want more than a 160GB hard drive, either upgrade to $250 or use a FireWire/USB drive (better to have an external anyway for backups in case you lose your laptop).

[2] Mac OS X integration with wireless network and Bluetooth keyboard is seamless. These days I plug in display, USB hub, and power, and it takes me less than 15 seconds to do especially because the power and display connectors are so small and easy to plug in. If you really need a docking station, there are third party ones.

[3] Runs Mac, Linux, and Windows XP/Vista. You'll need your older machine for Windows 98, but that's the case for practically any new laptop anyway. Mac OS X is great for development and comes with all the core tools and libraries pre-installed.

Only thing I'd suggest is to add RAM to the MacBook Pro's base 2GB. And I hope you aren't still using floppy drives.

By dual screens, do you mean two external displays or just a secondary display? The MacBook Pro does have dual-link DVI output and can drive quite a few displays, but you'll need an adapter.

Re:ehh

[OneHungLow]

You are implying that a Macbook or a "PC Laptop" are Compal or Quanta laptops with different badges on them. Which is not the case. It's irrelevant which manufacturer is used - you might as well say that they are all made in China for the difference that makes.

Apple or Lenovo

[chmoder]

I do not own a lenovo but that may be my next laptop. Great parts and long life are the most important with battery being next.

Right now I have a white macbook which I do CLI Linux development and XCode development. And i could do windows development too i guess...

I think the mac is the best but a lenovo would be very enticing to me because there would actually be a point to installing Linux on it. (OSX is built on BSD)

So choose what you want to develop and choose a laptop.

Always keep in mind the battery life.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/08/15/dells-latitude-on-instant-os-detailed-screenshooted/

The dell may be a fad but its really cool. :) ARM processor would be neat.

flamebait? Seriously?

[CFD339]

I've never complained about bad moderating on one of my posts before, but damn-- whoever marked that is an ass. There's no flamebait in it. There are just informed, practical and detailed opinions in response to the question asked.

Hey, whoever moderated this.....GFYS.

Re:MacBook Pro

[falconwolf]

While I have a MBP 13.3 for dev work, it currently lacks:

1. Docking port + station
2. User-swappable battery. However, the 7 hours of battery life it brings is pretty decent, even while working with WiFi. You can, of course, just grab an external battery power pack from a vendor off the web.

I wanted a dock for my MBP too and thought about getting a BookEndz dock. Maybe it meets your requirements. Now I don't like the non user swappable batteries. An external battery pack may mitigate that though.

Still, it's a good buy. I'd forget bootcamp and just virtualize the other OS with vmWare Fusion.

Though I won't use Bootcamp I will dualboot Snow Leopard and Ubuntu. I'm still using Leopard now but when I install Snow Leopard I'll also install rEFIt to use as the boot selector. I'll also install and use VirtualBox. That way I can boot into Ubuntu and use it at full speed as well as run Ubuntu in a VM in Ubuntu.

Falcon

Get a Mac.

[mhollis]

A 13" MacBook Pro will run any flavor of Linux, Windows (with Bootcamp) and will also run Apple's Mac OS. Frankly, I'd want a 15" one, but you can always buy a 23" cinema display later if you start making some serious money from your programming efforts.

Here's what you get at your price point:

13-inch: 2.26GHz

Intel Core 2 Duo

2GB Memory (You'll want to add more later)

160GB hard drive

SD card slot

Built-in 7-hour battery

NVIDIA GeForce 9400M graphics

You cannot touch Apple's battery life anywhere. And the processor is completely modern and sets you up to code for more than one core (commonplace on PCs today). And you get operating systems that will allow you the freedom to develop for any modern platform out there, save a mainframe.

Re:Get a Mac.

[sqrt(2)]

For the umpteenth time, a Mac doesn't fit what he needs. There are no Macbooks which offer hot-swappable drive bays or docking ports. And a Dell Latitude with a 9-cell can also use a slice battery and bay drive battery which will get you well over a Macbook's 7 hours. With a solid state drive you can be into double digits of battery life easily.

A Mac fits some needs, some very well in fact, but the submitter is not going to find what he needs from Apple.

Re:Get a Mac.

[bucky0]

Respectfully, I disagree with you. A mac fits it well.

I use a MBP for pretty much what he's talking about, and it works great. No, there's no docking port, but when I get to work, I plug in 3 cables (video, USB, power) and I'm ready to rock. I spent a lot of time dicking around with various laptops trying to get Linux to give me decent battery life, but OSX just does the right thing (tm) consistently, and I'm able to get a mountain of battery time out of my laptop.

A machine that has a 500gig harddrive, ~6-7 hours battery, simple docking (OSX detects when you plug in an external moniror real well) is a great dev machine and would do him good.

Re:Get a Mac.

[sqrt(2)]

A lot of it personal preference. I like Windows 7/Vista and Linux more than OSX, so a mac is a non-starter. You can get a 500GB HDD and 7+ hours of battery life on a PC too, it's not unheard of. There are also a lot more hardware options available to configure a PC. I think the only internal hardware you can customize on a MBP after you pick the model with the screen size and processor you want (non-customizable independently) is the amount of RAM and HDD space.

With my university discount, a MBP actually ended up being cheaper than a slightly more powerful Dell Latitude E6400, and it was admittedly a tough choice, I almost caved and bought the MBP but in the end I went with the Latitude.

Re:Get a Mac.

[mhollis]

Apple hasn't done docking ports for a long time, but there are third-party add-ons for that. There are also any number of hot-swappable drives you can buy for a Macbook. They're external Firewire and USB drives.

The philosophy here is that you can take a lightweight portable anywhere and it stays lightweight. Add peripherals and they're external to the notebook. If you're traveling around, you can just take the basics. Apple's really beautiful 24" Cinema Display monitor is specifically designed to power your laptop while you are using it at home. Detach your Macbook and you have a smaller screen in a lightweight package that doesn't cause your arm to grow 3" longer.

The OP suggests that the computer is for code. With a Mac, you get the advantage of Apple's code tools built in and free. And if he wants to code for the iPhone, for free he can download that SDK and distribute his applications for a one-time price of $99.

Can't do that on a Dell.

I don't want to knock Dell's philosophy here. It's as valid as anyone's. But when I work and just need to get somewhere with a minimum of gear, leaving a cable harness, large monitor, unneeded drive, etc behind really works for me. There's just less shoulder strain.

Now of course, you're going to tell me you played football four years for the Big 10 and a laptop with a couple of extra internal components, a docking port and other dongles, weighing in at 34 pounds doesn't cause you any trouble and, were I to meet you, I'd be happy to agree. But I'm more along the lines of a skinny geek.

Re:Get a Mac.

[sqrt(2)]

I'm 176cm tall and weigh 60kg, hardly an athlete of any kind ;)

Anyway, the weight difference of the base systems (15" MBP and Latitude E6400) is negligible. You could even use that cinema display with your Dell if you like it so much, although I think there are more reasonably priced options that are just as high quality. Apple's displays are certainly very nice though. There's nothing else you talked about that the Mac does that can't be said about the Dell too.

Re:Get a Mac.

[mhollis]

Dells cannot run OS X.

Dells cannot run an environment that lets you code for the iPhone.

Dells cannot be powered by the Apple monitor and I don't think the USB hub on the monitor would necessarily work with the Dell.

But I like how you're amassing all those muscles!

Re:ehh

[Jane Q. Public]

That's like saying that back in the day, Porsches and Volkswagens were made by the same large corporation. The answer to that is, "So what?" It is completely irrelevant.

Re:ehh

[camperslo]

Isn't Grub2 one of the features of Ubuntu Karmic Koala?

YES!
From the beta page:

"GRUB 2 is the default boot loader for new installations with Ubuntu 9.10 Beta, replacing the previous GRUB "Legacy" boot loader. Existing systems will not be upgraded to GRUB 2 at this time, as automatically reinstalling the boot loader is an inherently risky operation.

If you wish to upgrade your system to GRUB 2, then see the GRUB 2 testing page for instructions. See also the upstream draft manual.

Some features are still missing relative to GRUB Legacy. Notable among these are lock/password support, an equivalent of grub-reboot, and Xen handling. "

The Ubuntu 9.10 beta is available now, the release is due the end of the month.

Re:I wouldn't go for Windows on Mac hardware

[vijayiyer]

"Proper" BIOS? BIOS should have died long ago. Intel released EFI almost a decade ago - developers have had their chance to update. You're faulting Apple for not using something archaic because of GRUBs faults?

Re:Dell Latitude E6400

[travisb828]

My work laptop was a Latitude D620, but it was replaced with with an E6400 last week. It is lighter then my old D620 even with the , and has a much smaller power supply. This makes a difference when you have to lug a bag around.

I can't really comment on battery life since I my use consists of moving from docking station to docking station. I don't think I actually opened it since client support dropped it off, but I haven't had any problems running 2 monitors through the docking station.

I do like the fact that both the dock and the laptop have eSATA ports. For my use, this is probably the biggest improvement outside of the upgraded processor. If you are like me an keep most of your work on an external hard drive, eSATA is a big improvement over USB.

My only complaint is the sound quality, and you if you can't listen to Lady Gaga you can't do any real development. I don't think it pumps out enough power to drive my headphones. Maybe this is an excuse to build an Altoids amp.

Re:ehh

[witch-doktor]

I have a 13" macbook and I'm not happy with the build. The design is great is some ways but the case is cracking where the lid closes. Also, the LCD started to develop gray spots the first year. I had good experience with support though - they replaced the screen within one day.

Re:ehh

[Anonymous Coward]

It all depends. I really don't like their keyboards. And what's that of having no direct BkSpc/Home/End/PgUp/PgDn keys? That's a no go for me. And I don't like the size, weight combinations. I love the Sony SR line, but they have botched it with their keyboards (again simplifying the keyboard Apple Style). And they have no docking station.
As usual, when buying an Apple, if you have needs out of the hip/designer needs, you're out of luck.

Keyboard, keyboard, keyboard

[terjeber]

As a developer, the keyboard is crucial. Nobody except Apple comes close to Lenovo Keyboards. Want to survive a 10 year or more as a developed using a Laptop, get one with a good keyboard. In my experience there are two suppliers. Lenovo is way ahead of the pack.

Don't boot win '98, use a VM

[sglow]

I feel for you on the problem with compilers that are only available for Windows. I do embedded systems development and have the same problem (although fortunately the Windows only compilers will at least work with XP). I only run Linux on my laptop, but use VMware workstation for the rare occasion that I need to use one of those old compilers. Works great.

Actually, for the most part the compilers that I'm using have a command line mode which works fine under Wine, so I rarely even have to start VMware anymore.

I'm quite happy with my current laptop by the way. It's a Dell XPS M1530 which I bought pre-installed with Ubuntu. I loved the fact that I didn't need to pay the MS tax when I got it.

Consider a Dell Latitude E-series.

[MrCrassic]

I just bought a new laptop to replace the mobile workstation our school gives us (HP nw8240 for the 2005 class; now you know where I go to school!). While that computer was, even to today's standards, pretty freaking fast, I had no warranty on it and saw that the LCD was going at some points.

Instead of waiting a few months, I decided to bite the bullet and upgrade two weeks ago. I was deliberating between a non-unibody Macbook Pro, a Dell Precision M-series and a Latitude E-series. Since I commute and am moving around a lot, I really wanted a computer that could take a bit of a beating and hold a decent charge, all while still being not being as powerful and svelte as my old machine.

In the end, I landed up getting a Latitude E6500 with the Intel Core 2 Duo CPU (P8600 - 2.4GHz with 3MB L2 Cache), 2GB of RAM (though the eBay ad advertised it as having 3GB...bastards :p), 80GB SATA hard drive, nVIDIA Quadro NVS 160M 256MB discrete graphics (not good for Crysis, but good enough for a non-gamer like myself :D), 15.4" LED WXGA LCD and an integrated webcame (VERY IMPORTANT) for $695 shipped.

This thing is awesome. Scratch that; it's FREAKING awesome. It runs Windows 7 like a Cadillac, looks damn good, has THE perfect keyboard (no, really...it's really, really good) and is pretty light (something like six pounds). It's 6-cell battery usually lasts me 3.5 hours, which is perfect for me. Thus, doing development work on it (right now, I'm working on projects in C, though I mainly do a good amount of scripting and am learning C# in the future) is just fantastic. You might want a bigger LCD; they have a WUXGA LED screen available, which I hear is phenomenal. I personally wanted something with a lower-resolution, as I hardly use 1920x1200 anyway (and most mobile graphics cards can't push that many pixels smoothly anyway when under load).

To add, I can get the fingerprint sensor, Bluetooth module and LED-backlit keyboard from Dell (more like from eBay) when I need it. Oh, and it came with a 3-year limited warranty, which isn't business-class, but it's perfect for me.

In short: Macbooks are still overpriced, and AppleCare still comes separately. My Latitude does EVERYTHING a Macbook would do (yes, it even runs OS X successfully)...while looking just as good and with more AWESOME.

Re:Consider a Dell Latitude E-series.

[MrCrassic]

Forgot to add a few points to the above post; sorry for the length!
A lot of the people I know who are quite savvy with computers, development or both have also been switching over to Macs. I think they are fantastic machines; they are extremely well-built, damn light, have the right balance between form and function and are nowhere near as expensive as they used to be. (They can be had for really good prices on eBay if one searches diligently enough.) I didn't get one because I felt like I would get strong buyer's remorse if I put down the cash. It's also a bit limiting; MBPs, for instance, have permanent batteries and no docks, both of which are pretty critical to me. (I know that their batteries are so well-designed that they won't need to be replaced as often, but it's not assuring to know that I can't do it easily).
Also, the only issue I've encountered on this laptop so far is that the LED screen, while being very, very good (and very, very, VERY bright), emits a faint high-pitched buzz when it's displaying bright colors. I'm thinking that this is inherent to LED-backlit panels, but I'm unsure. Can someone clarify this?

Re:Consider a Dell Latitude E-series.

[PipingSnail]

Windows 7 like a Cadillac

Like a Cadillac? That is an advertisment for speed? Blimey...

Re:Consider a Dell Latitude E-series.

[SplashMyBandit]

HP nw8240 was awesome for its price in 2005. I'm still using mine (after repairs) although I learned that gaming should be done with a desktop not a laptop (I needed two motherboards replaced under warranty since the heat generated during Counterstrike, Day of Defeat, and Battlefield 2 tended to fry motherboard components). Anyway, what is great about these is you can get a 1920x1200 display (great for developers like me who want lots of x-terms open) in a 15" body (a lot lighter than a 17", so easier if you are moving between customer sites). The price of the Elitebooks significantly cheaper than competitors for the features you get (and especially the limited displays on the 15" Macbook Pros). Yes, 1920x1200 res works well for me on a 15" screen, I'm obviously not getting enough self-abuse in :)

I eventually converted everyone in our small office (5 consultants/developers) to the "nw" series each time one of their Toshibas needed replacing. Initially they ignored me but I made sure they got a look at the nw series among all the other options they had. By looking at the features and the price they each came to the conclusion that the various evolutionary incarnations of that model stood out above other HP models and other brands (despite initially thinking I was full of bs).

The new equivalent of the Compaq nw series is the the "Elitebook" series (a dumb name if you ask me, but the units have great specs for the price). A new consultant in our office has an Elitebook and it looks pretty tempting (although it is wasted running Windows). I was thinking about getting a Macbook Pro to run Ubuntu on (OS X is cool but Apple put too many restrictions in for someone who has used Linux for a decade), but the low-resolution screen puts me off (c'mon that much money for 1440x900, that's pretty lousy value these days) despite the advantages Macbooks have in other areas.

Anyway, check out the Elitebook series and decide for yourself whether the price is right for the features you get - just put Ubuntu on instead of Win7

Re:Consider a Dell Latitude E-series.

[pkphilip]

Do you know that it is really easy to change your LCD by yourself? try this:

http://www.lcds4less.com/laptop-lcd-removal-instructions.shtml

You can pick up a new screen for your HP laptop here:
http://www.lcds4less.com/search-lcds.shtml?lcds_search=HP+nw8240

Nope, I don't work for them (Lcds4less). Have no business links with them whatsoever. It is just that I am sick of the OEMs screwing us over with laptop parts and spares and also for the service.

And oh, by the way, the Latitude was a good purchase. Excellent machine.

Re:Consider a Dell Latitude E-series.

[MrCrassic]

The EliteBook is definitely awesome. I was considering that as well, but it was out of my price range and I didn't want to save for something like that (which I didn't need anyway).

The Freshman seem to like it...and NotebookReview claims that it's pretty bulletproof. Now, the REAL question of truth is how long before THEIR motherboards go out! (My nw8240 had its motherboard and LCD swapped twice. Their screens definitely went down in quality.)

Re:Consider a Dell Latitude E-series.

[MrCrassic]

I thought about that, but it didn't make much sense to keep servicing a machine that is somewhat obsolete and might run into a bigger, more unserviceable problem later. I was better off buying a new machine.

Re:Consider a Dell Latitude E-series.

[Panaflex]

the LED screen, while being very, very good (and very, very, VERY bright), emits a faint high-pitched buzz when it's displaying bright colors. I'm thinking that this is inherent to LED-backlit panels, but I'm unsure. Can someone clarify this?

Since it's related to the color, with LED panels it's likely a harmonic sound from the signal cable, most people can't hear the high pitch so sometimes you don't get the proper shielding.

Windows 98 compiler? WINE?

[abroadwin]

If all you're using the 98 install for is one or more compilers that require it, have you considered using WINE? For a while at work I was playing around with using VC++'s compiler run under wine through the bash command line for easy integration into build scripts on my Ubuntu box. Slight trickery required, but an entire OS required for a simple build step could be cut out. ~~ Alex

Wrong comparison

[Rix]

The Mac tax comes from the fact that to buy a Mac you have to choose from Apple's anaemic product line. For the vast majority, the available hardware will be inappropriate, and they'll have to spend hundreds or thousands on superfluous hardware.

Consider that you simply can't get a Mac laptop without discrete graphics, even though integrated graphics are more than sufficient for anyone who doesn't play games. Not to mention a screen that will work with the lights on.

Re:Wrong comparison

[radeon21]

The 9400m is not a discrete graphics card. The only Mac laptop you can't get without discrete graphics is the MBP 17".

Re:Wrong comparison

[Ascagnel]

Not true -- the lower end MacBooks (I'm writing this on the white plastic one) only have Intel graphics -- not discrete at all.

Re:Wrong comparison

[Weedhopper]

Interesting? How about -1 uninformed?

The only Apple laptop that you can't get without a discrete graphics card is the 17" MBP.

The only Apple laptop that you can't get a matte screen on is the 13" MB/MBP. Both 15" and 17" are available with "anti-glare."

So just about every one of your "facts" are wrong.

Re:Wrong comparison

[Rix]

I may be wrong about the integrated graphics, but the greater point remains. Apple's anaemic product line forces people to overbuy hardware.

And having to pay extra for a screen you can use outside a windowless room with the lights off is more than a little absurd.

Re:Wrong comparison

[Weedhopper]

I may be wrong about the integrated graphics, but the greater point remains.

No, they don't. They're just as poorly reasoned, researched and thought out as the rest of your post.

I have Macs, Thinkpads and a bunch of build my own machines so I'm not really on a OS crusade. On the other hand, from reading your parroting of the same old anti Apple shit, it seems like you got a hard on about not like Apple.

Re:Wrong comparison

[hazydave]

Actually, you want discrete graphics for anything really graphically intensive: 3D CAD, even video work can be GPU-accelerated these days (in fact, you can't really play full 1080/60p video on even very fast machines, and possibly 1080/60i depending on the PC, without multithreaded rendering and GPU-acceleration). Not that you need this for some kinds of development work, but "Developer" covers a broad area.

Obviously, this is up to the individual, but development machines often need more resources, of many kinds (I/O, HDD, CPU speed, screen resolution, and GPU speed) than the average consumer stuff. I wouldn't imagine doing video work with anything less than a nVidia 9600, at least looking forward. The video acceleration APIs were greatly improved in Vista (and might actually get supported come Win7), as well as nVidia and AMD/ATi's own private interfaces. At least one of these are supported by all modern video players, and should be coming to NLEs in this next generation. Video rendering, as well, is starting to use GPU processing as an accelerator (this is in TMPGenc already, and will very likely be moving in as a standard thing).

Re:ehh

[s4m7]

If you're going to be lugging an extra battery around, just carry a spare.

Yeah, because nothing's quite so convenient as hibernating your laptop, swapping out the batteries, and resuming.

Actually the double-convenience of the swappable bay battery is that if you don't want to lug anything extra around, and you know you need the battery life and not the CD/DVD, you can drop that extra battery RIGHT IN YOUR LAPTOP and don't need to carry it separately. Added bonus: don't waste power spinning up the CD at boot time.

Re:ehh

[zippthorne]

If you buy it with a Visa credit card, you may get up to an extra year of ordinary warranty. Check your cardholder agreement. The 3-year warranty doesn't look so good any more when you have that.

Do you really need the mobility?

[agoliveira]

I used to have a powerfull laptop to do development but I figured that, at least on my case, I rather have a powerful desktop and a netbook. I dont need to carry a heavy machine with me and I can always access my desktop via NX when I'm away.

How about "_all_ of the media keys"?

[Odinlake]

...with the sole exception of the volume keys. Most of the other feature keys that infest my keyboard don't work as they should, are completely useless or perform tasks that I can equally well do with a few normal keystrokes (and save myself the reach). Even a mouse click or two is a comparable alternative. Same goes for f-lock and the cryptic icons on my function keys.

Re:ehh

[jim_v2000]

Oh the horror! Having to hibernate everything three hours when there's not a power socket nearby!

every trick?

[frovingslosh]

(I have really old embedded software compilers that only run on 98, and yes I have tried every trick in the book to make them run on Linux),

When you say that you have tried every trick, does your book include installing VMware player (free) and running Win98 in a virtual machine under Linux? If that doesn't work I sure would like to hear how it fails.

Re:ehh

[tomhudson]

Yeah, because nothing's quite so convenient as hibernating your laptop, swapping out the batteries, and resuming.

You can plug in the external adapter for a few secs while you pop the old battery out. You'll need the adapter anyway to recharge.

Or, if you're not too chicken to make a hole in your battery case, all you need to do is run the external battery in parallel. A simple case mod (holes for the wires to the + and - terminals) and you're good to go. Don't even need the "right" battery - any battery with the right voltage and enough capacity will do.

Also, laptops don't "spin up" the DVD on boot if there's no disk in the drive, and you haven't set "boot from optical media" as an option.

Re:ehh

[tomhudson]

I'm happy with 1440 x 900 for a 17" laptop - but I've seen the same model, but with a lower-res screen - 1280x800.

The question I have is how much squinting at fine fonts I'd do at 1920x1200 on only 17" of screen - it's great on a 26", but can't see it being that good on a laptop.

Mac + Virtualization

[weazzle]

I suggest you get a MacBook (Pro or Air if you must) with 4 GiB RAM. Then use VirtualBox to run whatever other OS for which you want to develop.

Re:ehh

[jim_v2000]

The Mac has the same hardware that every other manufacturer uses. There's nothing "better tested" about it, and I don't buy that their "engineering" is better. My brother bought a 13 inch MacBook last month, and the front edge already cracked and had to be repaired (under warranty, apparently it's a known issue). The lid doesn't quite seem to line up with the bottom of the machine, but that's how the Apple Store guys said it was supposed to be. The no-button track pads are annoying as hell.

The only "extra option" that you get is OS X, and OS X isn't an advantage to a developer that doesn't use it. It's useless fluff.

The only devs that Macs are good for are Mac devs.

Re:MacBook Pro

[Jeremy Erwin]

perhaps intel's Light Peak will meet your data processing needs. Just wait until next year.

Re:brutal honesty

[jim_v2000]

You missed the "Dissed A Mac" logical fallacy.

Re:ehh

[fatjesus]

I totally agree. Pixels are a top priority. After pixels its Linux compatibility and preferably OEM support thereof.

Re:brutal honesty

[bwalling]

Your singular experience isn't really relevant to a discussion of MBP build quality. To say that they have better build quality is not to say that none of them fail. It is to say that they fail less often than competitor machines. Obviously, with a non-zero failure rate, someone will get the failed machine. So, you pointing out that you have one of the failed machines really has no bearing on whether or not the build quality is better. You tacked on an "IMHO", but it's not a matter of opinion, there exists data to say whether or not they fail at a higher or lower rate.

Re:ehh

[zach_the_lizard]

And as far as OS X itself is concerned, I essentially have a Linux machine, with all common Linux tools available to me, with the additional plus of a superior UI. (Superior to Linux, that is. It is debatable whether the UI is superior to Windows, though some people feel that it is.)

Whether or not a particular UI is superior is a very subjective thing. Take a look at the Office 2007 ribbon controversy. There are people who love the ribbon, and people who absolutely hate the ribbon.

Many of your other points are valid, though it overlooks the fact that, for some hardware configurations, the Hackintosh route is possible. My own laptop is capable of running Mac OS X (and did for a while). So all of the options a Mac user has are available to me, too.

A Thinkpad

[amn108]

The best developers laptop is a Thinkpad. End of discussion. There is a Thinkpad model for everyone, and they have the most open-source friendly hardware. There is not a single other manufacturer which provides similiar features in a package as appealing as a Thinkpad. As far as I am concerned, and I have tried to use everything from plastic-fantastic to Dells to expensive Vaios, there is only one option for a serious developer. A used Thinkpad T42, which is in my opinion made for developing software, is to be had for something like $200-$250. A new Thinkpad T400 costs $1000, and a T400s, its slimmer brother and IBM/Lenovos most expensive offering these days, is about $1300.

Re:A Thinkpad

[Hurricane78]

Great. In Germany the T400 is at 2000€?

On the other hand, this could mean that I soon can get my own Arnold for around 4000€, which is quite a deal. I hope shotguns are included. ;)

Lenovo Outlet

[ceraphis]

I've heard horror stories about buying from the lenovo outlet or trying to finagle your way into a return without a restocking fee or something, but I just got done having two unparalleled experiences with them. Bought a refurbished t400 and a refurbished x200 tablet and they are both exceptional, especially when considering how much I paid for them.

Also, although I know several have mentioned many similar things about thinkpads above, first of all the t400 is a great standard laptop. I got mine with a 2.26 ghz dual core, dvd+r dl ultrabay burner, switchable graphics (ati 3470 and intel 4500hd, the intel i assume has acceptable linux support and the switchable graphics work great in windows 7 RTM), 1440x900 LED backlit 300 nit LG matte screen, 9 cell battery for over 7 hours of battery life in power saving mode, a full copy of office '07 and vista business 32 which is eligible for a free W7 Pro upgrade on october 23 all for a total of $660 including tax. This is a steal for the quality of laptop I got. I configured it with the same options as new from their website with heavy coupon usage and it came out to 1000-1100.

There are several reasons why the thinkpad has basically survived all sorts of comparisons to other laptops since I bought it:
1. every thinkpad comes with a trackpoint/ultranav, which aside from being rare on a laptop these days is (if I researched correctly) a trackpoint 4th generation with many improvements over the few competing brands. This is extremely obvious when comparing to the "pointing stick" on a year old dell latitude. Also, I'm not sure but I think other trackpoints may not have the second set of mouse buttons right above the trackpad like thinkpads do. Again, the Dell Latitude I can compare it to does NOT. The middle ultranav button is particularly useful with the ultranav software, turning it into a trackpoint scroll.

2. While my 300-nit LED screen is certainly bright enough to make the keyboard visible in the dark, negating the use of the nice thinklight, it is still nice to have for when you want a light to read some paper documents or read a real book. Also, by using the thinklight to illuminate the keyboard, you can save battery life by reducing screen brightness. I have no idea how to compare to a backlit keyboard in terms of battery life, but I assume it is much less since I've read of troubles involving NOT using the keyboard backlight when it is not necessary.

3.The ultrabay slot I'm sure is a feature on other business laptops, I was actually looking at a fujitsu lifebook and read about its modular bay. Of course, that is a $1800 tablet so let's just say when you can buy an hdd adapter off ebay from hong kong for $15 making the use of two HDDs in a 660 dollar laptop that's pretty incomparable right there. Unfortunately the ultrabay battery apparently dies real quick since it is depleted completely before the main battery so I doubt I'll ever get one of those to have an equivalent of a 12 cell battery in my thinkpad.

4. I'm not sure how ubiquitous this is nowadays, but the latest thinkpads all support sata II 3.0 gbps in the main bay. Right now sitting pretty is an intel SSD at full speed, and a standard 160GB HDD in the ultrabay slot, giving the best of both SSD/HDD worlds.

5. Battery life is great, easily less than 10000(10?) MW when in power saver/intel graphics, giving me 8 hours of battery life on the 80000(80?) MWh refurb 9 cell that came with. Plus, 4 cell batts that sit flush in the t400 to fit my incase 15" macbook fluffy sleeve are $35 on the outlet. 6 cells (sticking out less than 9 cell) are $41 and I don't know how much 9 cells are since mine came with one.

6. the ATI 3470, while obviously not a champion graphics card, plays every game I throw at it except maybe Crysis. I have a quad core desktop if I want supreme graphics anyway. A bonus is that the t400 is one of the few real "lap"tops out there, since even when gaming it doesnt burn my lap like basically every other "notebook" out there. Left 4

Re:ehh

[dakameleon]

The plastic macbooks were plagued with cracking problems, speaking from personal experience too, but the new unibody ones are a solid build.

That said, it's far from addressing the OP.

Re:Anonymous Coward

[amn108]

+1 on the proprietary comment. In my experience, you never know what kind of hardware you find in those, and chances are it would be something refusing to even be recognised by Linux kernel - a real pain in the butt. Ironically, since we are developers we should applaud possibilities to develop drivers for unrecognised hardware, but first not every dev is a kernel hacker, and second there are just too many variations of these hardware setups. Worst are cheap laptops which patch some known variations into variations that no longer are recognised.

I have once found a laptop which used the USB bus to control and connect its system fan. I remember thinking - "Way to save on expenses here!"

Definately recommend thinkpad

[teraquendya]

i too would definitely recommend a thinkpad. I still have an 1200 iseries which still works just fine (short of the battery being useless and one hinge being broken due to someone stepping on it. Right now i use one of the new w500's. * Amazing keyboard. This was most likely the reason for me getting another thinkpad. not seen its equal. * very solid laptop. the construction is great, virtually unbreakable. * good linux support. most everything works out of the box now, and binary driver gives full 3d if nessesary (i just run of the integrated intel) * amazing resolution. nothing beats 1920x1200 on a laptop, non glossy too. * has bay (never used one) and swapable drive * again, amazing keyboard

The only devs that Macs are good for are Mac devs?

[Savage-Rabbit]

The only devs that Macs are good for are Mac devs.

You do realize that OS X is a certified Unix? That means that OS X shares an enormous commonality/overlap with the entire *nix software developing world including AIX, HPUX, Solaris, BSD and Linux. In fact OS X ships with a huge amount of OSS software pre-installed along with Apple's own proprietary stuff and optional developer packages that include a lot more OSS stuff. Apple also contributes to the OSS movement. Macs are also quite popular for all kinds of platform independent and web development. Apple deserves criticism like any other soulless megacorp and their computers aren't the best development machines ever conceived by the mind of man but Macs are useful for a lot more than just Mac development.

Acer 9630

[axor1337]

I have a Acer 6930 Running win 7 I visualize xp osx and ubuntu and have run 98 as a vm on it as well, with a core 2 duo and 4GB ddr2 It is plenty fast. as a side note I just upgraded to Win 7 from Vista and am using 12% less memory. the 6930 has a proprietary replicator port for docking. I dock mine to a 20 inch monitor and 2 external 500 Gb drives. and a usb Blueray burner.It also has a 16Inch screen and full keyboard fro working on the go. the only down side is that the batery only last 3 hours and the thing weighs 8+ pounds. but the new timeline series has great battery life and almost all the same features.

Re:ehh

[Panzor]

My laptop (thinkpad t61p) has a 15.5 inch (I think) screen and 1920x1200 res. I love it. Sooo much workspace room. Everyone that walks up to it whines about how small it is, but rarely do I ever care what other people see on my screen - in fact, it's usually not their business. Everything is small, but that's not stopping me from having a 10-point font default. I guess I just have good vision...

MacBook Docks

[Savage-Rabbit]

A 13" MacBook will fulfill some but not all of the requirements listed by the OP (the major missing one being a dock) for $1,200, and it's relatively easy to virtualize and/or dual boot all three major OSes (Windows, Linux, OS X). What more is there?

BookEndz sells a line of docks for Apple laptops but they look kind of clunky to me. Thanks to the USB hub in my display and bluetooth all I have to plug into my 13" MacBook when I sit down at my desk are the power cord, the Mini DisplayPort connector and the USB root connector which takes all of five seconds so I never felt the need to shell out €€€/$$$ for a dock. What really annoys me about the new MacBook Pro line is the built in battery, 7-8 hours of wifi enabled battery life are IMHO irrelevant. I want the ability to swap batteries without having to reach for a screwdriver and if that means having to put up with squeezing only 4 hours of life out of each battery then so be it.

Replace your LCD?

[LaptopZZ]

If you have no qualms about your current laptop, why not replace the LCD? eBay the model you need and part swap. Could keep you under the 100$ range if you're lucky.

Otherwise, I'm a fan of the T series as others here have mentioned even though I no longer have one (Sister ran off with it). I purchased a Fujitsu P7010D and have yet to find something as capable in the same size package.

You didn't mention your screen size requirements so it's difficult to make a good suggestion.

dating

[falconwolf]

I could believe the "Macs are used in businesses" troll, but you went too far saying you have "dated a lady".

With as many slashdotters rarely leaving the basement, or attic, I can understand their lack of understanding not everyone using slashdot is an introverted geek who's agoraphobic. Up until an accident while riding my bike, which I rode 100 to 200 miles a week, left me with a disability I was very outward bound. But now because of my disability I don't work, I used to work in concrete construction full time even while riding so much, and spend most of my tyme in my apartment. So I spend a lot of tyme on slashdot. However I'm trying to get back into college and love spending tyme in nature with my camera. I'm actually thinking about trying to start a photography business, but with the recession I'm not so sure that's a good idea.

Falcon

Re:ehh

[nedlohs]

The reason you need to swap the battery is because there is no external power to plug the thing in to.

I'll leave taking a laptop with some holes drilled in it and some wires connecting it to an external battery pack though said holes through airport security for you, thanks.

Re:ehh

[hattig]

1280x800 on a 15" screen (my work laptop) is not enough resolution to actually do any modern development work in, and the pixels are just a little bit too large. 1440x900 might be okay. 1680x1050 might have too small pixels. But on a 17" display, 1680x1050 (or 1600x900 for the new 16:9 screens) sounds like a good resolution.

At least you can get your IDE on that without feeling cramped.

A good dual core (core2duo)

[DusterBar]

A good dual core machine with at least 4gig of RAM works great. Since you said "developer" I, gaming is not an issue. I have a Dell dual core 2.4ghz machine that I run Linux on and then use Virtualbox to run legacy operating systems such as WinXP, Win95, and OS2 for testing/development.

I was amazed at how well VirtualBox was able to support the legacy OS operations. In fact, I also use it to run an older Linux build for building and testing some code for an older server.

Re:The only devs that Macs are good for are Mac de

[jim_v2000]

I stand correctly. The devs that Macs are good for are Mac devs and Unix devs who have money to blow on overpriced hardware, especially considering that they can get hundreds of flavors of *nix for free.

Re:The only devs that Macs are good for are Mac de

[jim_v2000]

*stand corrected

Re:ehh

[kjart]

but at the same time their physical engineering is superior (that is something that is not under much dispute)

I actually would. This is anecdotal, of course, but a friend of mine got a new unibody MacBook Pro recently and it bent noticeably within the first week of use - meaning, when placed on a hard, flat surface it would wobble. He ended up taking it back to the store (Best Buy I believe) and returned it for this reason, and they said they'd actually had a fair number of returns for that same reason.

So, while I agree that the engineering on macs is quite nice (I have a pre-unibody MacBook Pro myself, at the moment) lets try and remember that the engineering's purpose is generally to serve aesthetics first.

If you go with a Thinkpad...

[myddrn]

Watch out for the intel 4965 wireless card. I have a T61 with said card and wireless on the thing randomly stops working when running Ubuntu 8.10 and/or Ubuntu 9.04. Only thing that fixes it is a format. I'm not really sure if they even use these cards in new laptops anymore. The issue seems to be somewhat localized to Ubuntu distros. For the specific error google around for "Mac is in deep sleep". Buyer beware. Other than that little problem Thinkpads have always been good to me, besides the whole drifting nub mouse and occasional loose LCD hinge.

Re:ehh

[fnj]

To all you brain dead imbecile moderators out there, whatever parent post is, it's not a troll. Come on, assholes.

Re:ehh

[rantingkitten]

When actual comparisons have been done (as several magazines now have), as opposed to FUD

What magazines have done is irrelevent to me against comparisions *I* have done, for myself, using hardware configurations I care about. You can swing numbers all over the place depending on what options you want, but without fail, I can get the machine I want from IBM or Dell for significantly less than I'd get from Apple. I'd also get a keyboard and touchpad that doesn't make me want to kill myself.

at the same time their physical engineering is superior (that is something that is not under much dispute).

How is that not under dispute? What criteria are you using for this? I personally think Macbooks feel flimsy and I'm hardly alone in this. And as noted above, I loathe their keyboards and touchpads. I find their screens to be generally inferior unless you want to pay a HUGE, ENORMOUS premium for a resolution that isn't 1200 by Suck. In short, I find Apple's engineering to be pretty damned horrible. And I'm not alone in that either. There are millions who will complain about this stuff and more.

a superior UI. (Superior to Linux, that is. It is debatable whether the UI is superior to Windows,

All three of those are debatable. You will find people in every camp who think one of those three is far superior than the rest. I think Gnome is an excellent, highly usable, unobstrusive desktop. I think Windows is obnoxious and in my face all the time, and I think OS X is a bunch of shiny crap that does nothing but get in my way and has a one-thing-at-a-time mindset that is counterproductive.

Really, your statements are delivered with authority but have no substance behind them. None of what you claim is axiomatic actually is axiomatic. And I could easily supply anecdotal evidence that shows that Macs are great at running OS X, but generally suck wind when it comes to running Windows or Linux, but anecdotes prove nothing. The fact is that Macs are no better than anything else when it comes to "a developer's machine", and are quite often worse, depending on what, precisely, you intend to do with it. But one thing is for sure -- despite your claims to the contrary, they do carry a hefty pricetag.

MacBook Pro or HP Dv7t

[borroff]

I just bought my wife an HP dv7t 17" laptop. Quad core, 2.0GHz Intel, 6GB RAM, 320GB HD, and a gigabyte ATI video card. She loves it. But it costs $1350, weighs a ton, and I think this model is being discontinued (though I'm not sure of that).

On the other hand, I love my MacBook, and the unibody MacBook Pros. For me, after the processor speed, the max memory spec is the most important. Nowadays, don't settle for less than 8GB max. Both the HP and the MacBook Pros max out at 8GB RAM. I haven't seen anything other than the core i7's carrying more.

Sager

[aceofspades1217]

Get a Sager(or any other Clevo reseller), they are the most amazing developer laptops. They have an upgradable video card, can have a matte high resolution screen (so high that you have to change the DPI), and quad core and core i7 processors. And its all upgradable and relatively inexpensive.

They are just a no brainer for gaming and developing.

Laptops are ALL sketchy pieces of shit

[falconwolf]

The build of some laptops may suck but some are pretty sturdy. I think a lot of it through is what laptop have to go though. Now I'd like it if Apple were to make some like Panasonic's Toughbooks.

I had a cheap ass Gateway laptop that lasted me for 4 years

My first 2 laptops were Gateways. For the first one I had to replace the harddisk drive 6 months after I got it. Then 2 weeks shy of 1 year I called tech support after it crashed. The tech walked me through some tests then said the motherboard had to be replaced, so he arranged Airborn Express to drop off a box I'd pack it in then they'd pick it back up and ship it to the repair facility. A week later I called back asking about it, I was told they had a shortage of one part and it may take another week or two to get. Two weeks later I called again, and I was told it was just dropped off. I didn't have it and it wasn't left for me there. After going to the apartment office to see if it was dropped off there and calling both Gateway and Airborn back Gateway decided to send a new laptop. All together I was without a laptop 4 weeks.

The second Gateway I bought was a remanufactured laptop and like the first I bought Gateway's extended warranty. A few weeks later I got out of my car at home and grabbed the laptop. Walking to the door I slipped on ice. Now I was holding the shoulder strap with the bag along my side, so it wasn't more than a foot off the ground. When I got in I opened the bag and laptop and saw the monitor, I don't recall if it was an LCD or an LED, was cracked. Obviously I called tech support, and even though I paid more for the expended plan it was not covered. So I asked how much it would cost to repair and all they'd tell me was "between $200 and $1200". With all the trouble I had with Gateway's service, including having to wait a month to get a laptop back, I decided I would not give Gateway another penny. And besides the 2 laptops I also bought 2 desktops.

a friend's Macbook died within a few months. On the other hand, I've seen Macs last for years and "pc's" die after a few months.

Maybe it's a lottery. I recall many, many, years ago Zenith manufactured computers, before selling the devision to Group Bull in France. The joke was that if a Zenith computer had any problem in the first month it would always have problems but if it didn't it'd last years.

Falcon

Re:ehh

[Anonymous Coward]

What magazines have done is irrelevent to me against comparisions *I* have done, for myself, using hardware configurations I care about.

How is that? Because you don't care about the hardware configurations Apple offers, that means they are overpriced on a 1 to 1 basis? That makes no sense. No Apple does not offer the variety of hardware options most other manufacturers do. No they don't make low end laptops. But that isn't Apple's problem. If I go to McDonalds to get a taco and can't because McDonald's doesn't sell tacos it doesn't mean anything is wrong with McDonald's it mean I'm the dumbass for trying to get a taco at a place that doesn't sell them. Try to get a multitouch trackpad from anyone else.

Its all well and good if you don't need a backlit keyboard. I don't give a fuck. But it is a feature Apple offers and some people like it and assign that feature a value in dollars they are willing to pay over another laptop that doesn't have one. Same for the built in long life battery. Same for the top notch LED panels in the displays. Same for the aluminum case.

If a few hundred bucks causes you to type HUGE ENORMOUS maybe you need more education so you can get a better job. Regardless, Apple isn't interested in your business, obviously, because they don't offer low end laptops.

Also update your troll. IBM doesn't make hardware any longer. And who thinks an outboard battery is a good idea? Lets make it a regular laptop footprint and then hang half the battery off the backside, that'll hook people. A battery that doesn;t last as long as my MBP's.

Why Apple is the way you go

[hotfireball]

That's the reasons why I do stuff on Apple:

1. Price. I find Macs always $100-$300 USD cheaper than equivalent Lenovo or even Dell, if you find exact class and configuration with exact support etc.
2. You can use all operating systems: OpenSolaris, Windows, Linux and OSX. Go get VirtualBox and put this stuff there, run OSX.
3. Mac desktop is way better than Linux. Add here that you also would probably love to sync your iPod, watch some stuff, surf some web and collect some random photos, although this is machine for development. Remembering that X11 still in 2009 can crash if you visit some URL with e.g. Konqueror or Opera... :-(
4. You can use better software that you can just buy, once you need/want. E.g. I find Adobe Illustrator better than Inkscape and Adobe Photoshop better than GIMP. I also find that OmniGraffle is way better than Dia and iWork better than OpenOffice.org, although OpenOffice.org now natively works on Macs.
5. Good hardware manufacturer. Slick design. Strong aluminum unibody case. Great keyboard that also has a backlight and withstands my daily abuse.

If you have some more questions, reply here, I will follow.

Re:ehh

[OneHungLow]

Oh, I don't know. China, Taiwan - all the same to me :-)

Glossy and Matte

[Fallen Kell]

Someone hasn't been keeping up with Apple's products it seems. After the outcry in the beginning of the year with the glossy only displays on the MacBook Pro's, Apple actually listened to their customers and brought the option back. You can get matte on the 15" now as well. The 17" has always had the matte finish option and never lost it even with the switch to the unibody design (unlike the 15" which did become glossy only). The 13" is the only one which does not have a matte option, but I don't see that model as being pertinent for the poster's requirements (aside from cost). For development work, you want that larger screen so you can have multiple files or applications open next to each other for writing code (like the program's design document, or API, or even a test window, etc.)

Re:Glossy and Matte

[MogNuts]

Oh yes, great advice. And those 15" only start at *seventeen hundred dollars.* Or about $1000 more than equivalent PC laptops cost, for the *exact same hardware.*

Re:Glossy and Matte

[10Ghz]

Oh yes, great advice. And those 15" only start at *seventeen hundred dollars.* Or about $1000 more than equivalent PC laptops cost, for the *exact same hardware.*

I call BS on that. Show me a $700 PC-laptop that is equivalent to $1700 MBP. Go ahead, I'm waiting. Or do you really think that laptops are nothing but collection of electronics, and that you can determine the quality of a laptop by staring at a bunch of specs? That if laptop A has more Mhz than laptop B, it must therefore be "better"?

Re:Glossy and Matte

[MogNuts]

Straight from Apple's website:

15" MacBook Pro
# 2.53GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
# 4GB 1066MHz DDR3 SDRAM - 2x2GB
# 250GB Serial ATA Drive @ 5400 rpm
# SuperDrive 8x (DVD±R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
# Backlit Keyboard (English) / User's Guide (English)

Grand total: $1,700

Straight from Dell with absolutely identical specs, including backlit keyboard:

Grand total: $859

For a total difference of Ding! Ding! ** $841 ** less for a PC.

Man that was hard. Took me all of about 2 minutes.

Re:Glossy and Matte

[10Ghz]

I noticed that you didn't provide any links to the machine you specced. You also didn't even bother to mention the model... And again: are you really so retarded that you think that you can determine the quality of a computer by starting at a bunch of specs on screen?

Re:Glossy and Matte

[MogNuts]

Go price it yourself, right now. The Studio 15. And yes I actually do know the quality because I recently bought one.

Re:Glossy and Matte

[10Ghz]

Go price it yourself, right now.

OK, I did. My price came to $974. And for that price I got

- Intel GMA 4500HD
- No backlit keyboard (didn't even let me choose one)

Other specs were more or less similar (battery on the Dell is 85Whr vs. 73Whr on the MBP, however).

So I got a laptop that is made from plastic, no magsafe, no backlit-keyboard, crappy GPU, is heavier (the model with smaller battery is already heavier than the MBP (2.515kg vs. 2.49kg), is bigger in every way (thicker, wider, taller)... And still no OS X.

So it costs 750 bucks less. But it's quite apparent that you also get a crappier machine. It's in no shape of form comparable to the MBP. Color me unimpressed.

And yes I actually do know the quality because I recently bought one.

The fact that you bought one is no indication that the machine is of high quality.

Re:Glossy and Matte

[MogNuts]

Oh man and check this out--it was sooo difficult. Just priced out a Studio 15 with specs better than a MBP. For $1,324 on a Dell Studio 15, you get for $50 less:

8 GB RAM vs. 2 GB
500 GB *7200* RPM HD vs. a shitty 250 GB 5400RPM HD
a 512 MB ATI discrete video card
15" screen vs a smaller 13.3" screen

So difficult. So let's see, not only do PCs give you *more*, but they cost *alot* less.

Re:Glossy and Matte

[10Ghz]

You are still being the retard who thinks that quality of a computer can be determined by staring at a bunch of specs. You still get bigger and heavier computer with inferior design and OS. Do you also buy your cars by staring at their specs online?

Re:Glossy and Matte

[MogNuts]

What part of "I *own* a Studio 15" don't you understand? I can tell you firsthand it's of nice quality, and honestly it's one of the best looking laptops I've ever seen in their "black chainlink" color.

Re:Glossy and Matte

[10Ghz]

What part of "I *own* a Studio 15" don't you understand?

Just because you own one does not mean that it's high quality. Which part of that do YOU not understand? Wbat are the odds of you admitting that you bought a piece of shit gear? Next to zero I would guess.

I can tell you firsthand it's of nice quality, and honestly it's one of the best looking laptops I've ever seen in their "black chainlink" color.

I have seen people tell how some piece of PC-hardware is high quality", but when I actually test it, all I find is dull, creaky plastic with mediocre design and bulging dimensions. I use Thinkpad T61 every single day, which is widely recognized as the #1 in quality when PC-laptops are concerned. And sure enough, it's a lot better than most PC-laptops. But it's still not as good as my MBP.

Every single time I see someone make those stupid comparisons about how hou can get a "better machine" while paying less if you get a PC as opposed to Mac. But when I compare those "superior" machines to Macs in real life, it becomes quite obvious that not only are they cheap, they also look and feel cheap. You obviously get what you pay for. Anyone who thinks that there are free lunches, are deluding themselves. PC-hardware might be cheaper, but there's a reason why they are cheaper.

If you look at raw specs, a Chevrolet with similar "specs" as an Audi has would cost less. But anyone with a functional brain would notice the obvious differences between the two after two minutes of hands-on testing.

Re:Glossy and Matte

[MogNuts]

I can go all day with this, because I'm just plain right.

1) Think what you want. It's great looking, has tons of ports, very light, great battery life. What else do you want? Seriously. And I could make the argument that your Apple doesn't have the ability to be dropped or useable in rain like some PC manufacturers can, if I wanted to play devil's advocate.

2) So basically you want sex appeal, and your desire has nothing to do with quality even though that is what apparently what you think you are saying. And durability wise, a dropped MBP falls apart just like a Thinkpad. But PCs *do* have options for *very* durable laptops, which don't fall apart when dropped--Apple, not available.

3) Ah the car analogy. Yours fails. It would be like a Honda Fit 4-cylinder 117 hp engine put in a Mercedes E350 body (Apple), compared to an actual BMW 550i (the PC), which does 0-60 in 5.2, has Y rates performance tires, amazing handling, with a nice comfortable ride.

Re:Glossy and Matte

[10Ghz]

I can go all day with this, because I'm just plain right.

Nope. Just because ypu happen to prefer generic PC-hardware does not mean that they are universally "better"

Think what you want. It's great looking

Looks like an other PC-laptop to me.

very light

It's heavier than the MBP, not to mention bigger. In a portable computer, size is a pretty important factor.

great battery life.

If you get the uber-extended battery, yes. But then it's a lot heavier than the MBP

What else do you want?

OS X, all-metal design, good design, large trackpad with extensive support for gestures, magsafe.

And the funny thing is that you can have just about all the features you mentioned plus more in a MBP....

And I could make the argument that your Apple doesn't have the ability to be dropped

Why would you want to drop your laptop? And the MBP has the sudden-motion sensor just like PC-laptops do (Apple invented that BTW).

or useable in rain like some PC manufacturers can

Why would I want to use my laptop in rain? And can your Studio 15 be used in rain? No.

Re:Glossy and Matte

[Allador]

Your primary argument for the Mac's seems to be how they look.

Who cares. It's a tool.

And there are a number of aluminum chassis laptops with backlit keyboards and nearly all the stuff you want. Most of the mainstream corp kit is that nowadays.

It's arguable that the Macs are slightly better made from a physical standpoint. But there are some very nice non-apple laptops out there.

The HP Compaq stuff (Elitebook 17" for example), or the Dell Latitude E's, or the Lenovo.

Lastly, you're right in that when it was owned by IBM, the Thinkpad's were the best. That margin is pretty much non-existent now under Lenovo. The rest of the manufacturers have caught up.

Right now I'm using an HP Compaq 8710w, and this thing is a workhorse. It gets abused and just keeps on going. It's black, and dirty, because I'm a man and I don't give a rat's hairy ass how it looks.

Again, I'm a man, so I could care less about size and weight, within reason. With other equipment, books, and magazines in my laptop bag, the bag approaches 30 pounds at times anyway, so the couple pounds of the laptop is irrelevant.

Re:Glossy and Matte

[10Ghz]

Your primary argument for the Mac's seems to be how they look.

Who cares. It's a tool.

Um, no. Of course I would much rather have good looking hardware than crappy looking hardware, everything else being equal. But this isn't just about looks.

Like I said, I have had to deal with laptops that have broken down because people tripped on the powercord. That would not happen on a Mac. Backlit keyboard makes it a lot more pleasant to use the computer at low-light situations. Trackpad with gestures makes the whole system a lot more pleasant to use.

Sure, someone could say that all of those are minor things and not worth the money. But the thing is that Macs are full of stuff like that, and they do add up. It's nice to use a computer that was not designed to be as cheap as possible, but as pleasant to use as possible. When you design your computer to be cheap, it will feel cheap. I use my computer quite a lot, and I value the fact that the machine is pleasant to use, even if it costs a bit more than some PC-laptop with similar specs costs. And even those specs are misleading, since they usually disregard the little nice things that come with a Mac, OS X, size and weights etc.

And there are a number of aluminum chassis laptops with backlit keyboards and nearly all the stuff you want. Most of the mainstream corp kit is that nowadays.

Um, no. Overwhelming majority of PC-laptops are made from plastic (I'm talking about outer shell here), and backlit-keyboards are very rare. Some Thinkpads have the ThinkLights, but it's not as nice as true backlight is. Dell Studio-series seems to have backlight in some models though.

It's arguable that the Macs are slightly better made from a physical standpoint. But there are some very nice non-apple laptops out there.

The HP Compaq stuff (Elitebook 17" for example), or the Dell Latitude E's, or the Lenovo.

Like I have repeatedly said, I use Lenovo T61 at work, and it's not as nicely built as my pre-unibody MBP at home. It's a lot better than most PC-laptops are (espesially those $700 laptops that are apparently "just as good" as $1700 MBP's are), but still not as good as my MBP is.

Again, I'm a man, so I could care less about size and weight, within reason.

I'm a big and burly man as well, and I still want my laptop to be as small and light as possible. There IS a difference between carrying a light laptop and heavier laptop.

Re:Glossy and Matte

[MogNuts]

And I notice you don't address half of what I brought up, or make up things arbitrarily.

Don't grasp at straws, it's not becoming of anybody.

Re:ehh

[AmyRose1024]

Widescreen sucks, especially for software development, where you need more vertical space, not less.

You won't find a MacBook Pro docking station

[falconwolf]

BookEndz has MacBook/Pro docks.

you'll want to cough up 50-100 for more RAM before too long if you go this route I think

Apple's RAM prices are outragious. I've even had employees suggest I buy more RAM from someone else then install it. And the handbook that came with my MBP from Apple tells how to add RAM.

make sure you have maxed out the RAM (can make a very big difference)

Yeap, sometimes adding RAM can speed up things. I'll probable do that before I replace my MBP.

take a good hard look at SSDs that may fit your budget. A good SSD will completely change how you use your machine

For a 17" MBP a 256 GB SSD cost $650 more, and that's the biggest they have now. I use more storage than twice that. Now what would be nice would be to have both an HDD and an SSD. The HDD can be used for mass storage while the OS and swap partition is on the SSD.

Falcon

Re:ehh

[tuzo]

The question I have is how much squinting at fine fonts I'd do at 1920x1200 on only 17" of screen - it's great on a 26", but can't see it being that good on a laptop.

I had a Dell M60 with 1920X1200 17" screen and I did find the fonts to be a bit small. Sure, the room was nice to have but I did have to increase some fonts so that they would be easier to read. e.g. when reading online documents in a browser I would increase the default fonts for a more comfortable reading experience.

Re:ehh

[Animixer]

Most of the "benefits" of the extra swappable drive bay are nullified in newer laptops.

Here's his list: CD/DVD R/W, extra battery, floppy drive, extra hard drive, memory card reader, etc

Floppy drives are obsolete

Presumably someone who still has to run Windows 98 bare-metal for very specialized compilers tied to old systems would also have a use for a floppy drive. I seem to recall some very specialized systems that would only work with odd software on a special laptop with very specific peripherals, and often required use of a floppy drive for firmware, configuration dumps, or similar. That, or I could be misremembering.

Re:The only devs that Macs are good for are Mac de

[pantherace]

Apple contributes to open source generally because they've been beaten over the head with the fact that not everything is BSD licensed.

Safari, when it came out wasn't compliant with the license (LGPL), multiple notices that they weren't in compliance and eventually, I believe, threats to sue were required for them to release code, as well as what they released being one great big diff. So useful. To be fair, they have gotten better over that particular case (KHTML/Webkit) since then.

Saying that they are a good OSS citizen, would probably be pushing it. (Mostly they seem to follow the idea of doing the minimum required, unless it turns into a PR problem.)

Whom?

[falconwolf]

most of us are too stupid or just too busy to ever bother figuring out where "whom" was supposed to be used.

Such as For Whom the Bell Tolls"? Usage does change, sometimes for the good and sometimes it's not good.

Falcon

Re:ehh

[pantherace]

In every case of Apple computers I have looked at, Laptop/Desktop/Server, looking at the hardware components, they have proven to be higher priced, compared to similar PC options. Where there were options that weren't equivalent, I chose it so the PC had the better option (more ram, faster/larger HD, etc) PCs have always come out on top. Laptops have been a bit more annoying to perfectly match, but if you exclude a few things, they match up pretty well.

Here's a comparison of my laptop and a mac book pro 13". While mine is 14.1" and there isn't a mac of that size, the 13" is closer in features/price to mine, thus I compare with it. (It's also base 500$ more)

Base price on a 13" MBP is 1199$, mine was $950 *a year ago*
Comparing my nearly year old laptop to a current 13" MBP, mine is a 14.1". with a 2.2GHz T7500 Core Duo (2.26 in MBP, particular type not given), Wireless is equivalent (can't find what chips they use, mine is an Intel abgn + Bluetooth), RAM is 3GB in mine vs 2GB, Screen resolution is the same, Basic configuration of 160GB MBP drive is half mine (320GB 5400rpm) (+100$ MBP), Apple contains one display port connection, mine contains DVI, VGA, and S-video output. Graphics card in MBP is 9400M, mine is 8600M GT (advantage in doing things, mine, power the MBP as it's a generation later, for reference, the 9500 is essentially the 8600 repackaged) DVD drive is pretty much the same, though mine isn't slot loading. Gig LAN check on both, Firewire check (1 each), USB ports-2 MBP, 5 mine, SD reader-both check, webcam-check (1.3M mine, MBP-unknown) mine does not have a backlit keyboard or magsafe power port. Oh, yeah, extra battery capability. (I'm not including the actual second battery I have in the $950, or comparison)

What we have here, is a close to fair comparison, where the MBP is either equivalent for purposes of running software, or inferior (graphics) hardware costs $1300 compared to $950. $350 for slot loading, inferior graphics, potentially improved battery, less RAM isn't quite right.

Not quite as complete a comparison, but My sister's new laptop (1100$, a 16") compared to a MBP is equivalent to either the 15" (1700/2300) or 17" (2500), except for being a bit slower than the higher end (2200/2500), with I believe a 320 GB HD (-50$ off MB) and less resolution than the 17". On the other hand, she could get two of them for the price of the faster macs. Even assuming it's 100-200$ for the extras, that's still $1k of apple tax, on pretty much the same hardware, in terms of running anything.

Please make sure you are supported by the facts if you are going to argue a point.

If we want to use your silly food analogy, The pickles and buns at McDs, and BK may be slightly different, but they are essentially the same.

Re:ehh

[CharlieMurphy]

Interestingly I have a dell D600 laptop where you can put it in standby and swap the battery and it doesnt loose its memory contents (no AC connected). I'm not sure if its a feature, or the RAM just happens to retain its contents for the 5 seconds or so it takes to swap the battery.

What I use

[phorm]

Now mind you, I'm not an official developer by profession these days, but I spend a good deal of time at work doing web-dev and at home coding C++ apps for personal amusement, but here's my 2c:

a) As mentioned, definitely drop that floppy in favor of a few USB sticks or (even better if you have a cardreader) the built-in cardreader and some SD cards. One additional note though, if your projects are big or you anticipate lots of storage may be needed, make sure the card-reader does SDHC. If you need floppies for legacy, a USB floppy drive works nicely

b) 17" can be a bit much, and definitely adds weight. If you're going for more portability, try a 15" supporting higher resolutions. Heck, even my TX2500 with a 12" screen at 1280x800 is OK. When sitting, have an external LCD, and make sure you have a video card that can manage multiple screens with a higher-res external nicely (randr, twinview, or some other). Some cards don't do anything other than "clone" mode nicely...

c) Extra hard drive? An external drive works quite well on an as-needed, and cuts down on power consumption and bulk. Having extra USB ports and ones that deliver good power is very helpful there (some machines require a dual-USB connector to sufficiently power an external 3.5" USB drive).

d) An extra battery may or may not be needed depending on how you trim up with the above.

e) RAM, 4GB is not uncommon or unaffordable, and really can make a performance difference when you have large projects and many apps open

f) A decent (and decently supported) graphics card is important if you're doing 3d work. Newer ATI's seem to be OK since AMD took over (mine works just find in 'nix), but some stuff still seems more Nvidia-centric in linux-land.

g) If a CD/DVD drive isn't always essential, one can dump that for additional savings on bulk/battery and opt for a slim external (or just pop it out when not in use if you can do so).

Re:ehh

[glitch23]

The last two Dell laptops I've owned each lasted well over 5 years with no problems. Macs may have their advantages, but IMHO build quality is not one of them. You know, to be brutally honest.

So I guess you are saying your Dell laptops are representative of all Dell laptops ever made and your MBP is representative of all MBPs ever made therefore Dell is awesome and Apple is horrible at manufacturing laptops?

A new idea for a new world

[Max_W]

I am using powerful "Acer" desktop in my office and small "Acer One" netbook with XP for travel. For my netbook I have "Orange Internet Everywhere" mobile Internet connection (3G, etc.), which costs 56 Swiss francs per month (about 55 US dollars) and works in almost all civilized countries.

So I can work on a normal computer with a large monitor in my office, still I can take with me everywhere the small light netbook and connect to Internet at any place, even in the woods and mountains.

Despite its small size I can install on the netbook all the soft, which I can install on a desktop. And I can travel really lightly and have the netbook about me all the time.

I found out that the size matters. I bought also an excellent Panasonic G-1 camera, which is also of a small size, but is of good quality due to the new technology replacing a mirror box inside a camera with digital technology.

Not necessary anymore to have a martyr's look of a business traveler carrying, speaking figuratively, a cross, an enormous laptop bag, a huge camera holder over airports. I travel with a backpack which looks empty, but contains my whole office and ready to connect at any moment. As opposite to asking "how connect to you WiFI? Is there an empty table to place my laptop on it? etc."

Re:The only devs that Macs are good for are Mac de

[musicmaker]

hundreds of flavors of *nix for free, yet none of them run iMovie, iTunes, iDvd, Photoshop, Illustrator, Aperture, Lightroom, Visio*, Word, Excel, an Exchange client or a dozen other business/personal critical apps for normal human beings.

Do a check - last time I priced a Dell with comparable hardware to a Mac, they were MORE expensive, not less.

I own a lovely Sony Vaio, and ditched it for a 24" iMac which was _cheaper_, faster, ran OS X not Vista, so could do more with less, and supported Apache/Postgresql/PHP/Java without serious pain. It has a better screen, a nicer keyboard, better Bluetooth support, good networking (ever try to get WebDAV to work properly on Vista, or bring up the network neighbourhood screen and not wait less than several minutes?) an excellent built in backup solution that doesn't suck balls, firewire 800 so my external content drive doesn't take forever to transfer large files, which apparently USB sucks at, wireless that actually works (still waiting for wireless to work properly in linux distros), and actually syncs with media players without patching the kernel, or installing really stupid software.

I'll run linux when linux devs stop building more MP3 players and start working on apps that people actually need. I'll run Windows when Microsoft stops re-inventing the wheel every other release and focuses on bringing a stable easy-to-use environment to me. Have you noticed that OS X gets better with each release? What an amazing idea! They add _more_ functionality, _more_ (useful) apps, _more_ performance, _more_ stability, and the upgrade is $50 for a whole family and I don't need a degree in computer science to install it successfully.

Linux on the desktop will never happen until somebody with lots of money comes along and makes it happen. Oh wait - that's Mark Shuttleworth at canonical, and linux on the desktop is still years behind OS X.

The question isn't why would you buy a Mac, it's why wouldn't you? So they cost more. I save the difference in a single week of productivity gains.

Re:ehh

[ynososiduts]

Back in the day...? They still are. As are Audi, Lamborghini and Bentley. Which just makes you're point that much better. Comparing a VW to a Lamborghini is almost impossible ,but still made by the same big corporation.

Re:ehh

[GNious]

Try this on a Dell - As likely to crap out on wake-up as not... and yes, seen SHITLOADS of Dell laptops do this, even my brand-spanking new E6400.

Re:Why on earth would a Java developer want a shel

[fbjon]

Re: ant, try Netbeans.

Personnaly I use two laptop EEE and 17" laptop

[kiwi-backup]

The EEE is very useful when I'm out of office for a small trip or for a meeting. The 17" laptop is practical when i have to work all the day in the customer office. I can't really chose one. Both have some advantage

Re:ehh

[AmiMoJo]

As someone who fixes PCs for a living I can tell you that Macs are not easy to work with and the parts are expensive. Only having one mouse button in Windows is no fun either.

They are nice machines, until something goes wrong. If you really want to run MacOS, get an Acer and make it a dual-book Hackintosh.

Re:ehh

[Hortensia Patel]

So I guess you are saying your Dell laptops are representative of all Dell laptops ever made and your MBP is representative of all MBPs ever made therefore Dell is awesome and Apple is horrible at manufacturing laptops?

Hey, why stop there? Why not guess I am saying that we should set fire to kittens and add ground glass to baby food? I mean, if we're allowed to just make stuff up, why not really go to town?

I can't help noticing that, of all the posters castigating me for reporting my personal experience, not one seemed to have any problem with the OP reporting his. Funny, that.

Re:brutal honesty

[AmiMoJo]

I fix laptops for a living and Macs don't seem to be any more or less reliable than other brands.* This is based on fixing around 80 laptops a month.

The main issue is that they are a bugger to work on when things go wrong and the parts are about 2x the price of Acer or Toshiba parts. Sony is the only other brand that rivals them for that.

* Every HP made in the last few years has the nVidia chipset failure problem so they have around a 100% mortality rate after a year or two. Toshibas all seem to get clogged up with dust after a few years and start to overheat, but no brand is immune to that. NECs seem pretty solid and reliable. Acer are also good and parts are cheap (available direct from Acer). Asus are really hit and miss. Advent and Philips are both PC-World own brand (Philips whored their name out) and are cheap rubbish. Packard Bell are nothing special. Thinkpads are very solid and reliable, and parts are generally not too expensive.

That's because of the magic of Apple

[Britz]

You can work with any Apple product perfectly, because they come with Steve Jobs magic, that will make any of their products perfect in every way no matter what. It could reboot every 2 min, but still never crash. It could be doa, but still be the nicest thing to have on a rack ever. It is just soooooooo (mhmhm) perfect.

Have you ever thought how you make the PERFECT Apple fanboy? Glossy screens are so bad, and Apple is a really stupid company for putting them in (like everyone else, but I have seen Apple put them in desktop lcds, and I have yet to see Apple even offer the option of non glare). But if glossy is fine, Apple is not stupid. So glossy must be fine.

3G is already over the $1,200 budget

[tepples]

tight VNC

TightVNC requires an Internet connection. The obvious way to get an Internet connection while riding a bus or otherwise away from a hotspot is 3G. In my country, 3G data service for a PC costs $59.99 plus tax per month, for a total of $1,439.76 plus tax over the minimum 24-month contract. You're already over the $1,200 budget, and you haven't even bought any hardware.

Why you should be lucky to have a laptop

[elsJake]

Us poor students have to work using only a thumb drive , while we live in a rolled up newspaper in the middle of the lake.

Samsung NC10

[horza]

I've done the same with the Samsung NC10, which is similarly specced. I have the same resolution, which I thought would relegate it to just my travel needs, but I develop on it just fine and don't even switch on my desktop at the moment. I have a USB hard drive for entertainment, an external monitor for watching movies, and a USB mouse. Does the job. Runs standard Kubuntu install perfectly. Wifi worked out of the box. My desktop is normal over-the-top gaming spec but without games I'm surprised how little I actually need. The 8hrs+ battery life I find essential though.

Phillip.

Re:Samsung NC10

[Like2Byte]

8 Hrs battery life!? Nice!! Wish my Acer had that.

ATI on Linux

[Bozovision]

I run Linux. I bought ATI because they support open source, but have been very disappointed with their drivers, and the open source drivers aren't great either.

I used the closed source driver because I can play 3d games. I can view more than 1 screen, although in windows both of my screens are rock solid, while in Linux there's flicker on one. I know I'd be able to fix it on Linux BUT... ..the reason I am down on ATI is that I have probably spent FIVE days of my life dicking around, trying to get their drivers working with X, and I am not going to spend any more of my limited number of days on earth dealing with this sort of thing. Every time there is a new version of Ubuntu I have had to go through the same stupid waste of time, trying to get everything going satisfactorily again. I like open source, I write open source, I support businesses that support open source, but the next time I have a problem with my video card, I'm going to throw it away and buy a rival card.

Sadly ATI do not support open source enough for their support to be truly useful. Nor do they make great closed source Linux drivers.

HP Elitebook

[JaCKeL 1.0]

I recommend you considering the HP EliteBook (formerly known as Compaq), these machine a solid, well made and meet about every request you mentioned. BTW you can get them way cheaper than retail price and they do have a 3 year warranty.

Re:ehh

[unencode200x]

Take a look at the Dell Precision line, specifically the MX series. It's what we use for developers and, slightly modified, for executives. Solid machines, lots of options, and very well build. The MX6400 (which has a 17" inch screen) would meet your needs. It does have a large price tag though. Everyone that I know that has a Precision laptop loves them. Regardless of which machine you choose, if I were you I'd wait the three weeks for Windows 7 to come out. Get the ultimate version it comes with virtualization built-in. You get an XP VM for free and you'll be able to run 98, etc. on it. I've been using the RTM for a while and it's awesome. Good luck.

Re:ehh

[anonymousbob22]

Interestingly I have a dell D600 laptop where you can put it in standby and swap the battery and it doesnt loose its memory contents (no AC connected). I'm not sure if its a feature, or the RAM just happens to retain its contents for the 5 seconds or so it takes to swap the battery.

It probably just backs the RAM up to HD.

Re:ehh

[Ritchie70]

Floppy drives aren't obsolete for everyone.

His list includes the fact that he has a Windows 98 image on his laptop for using older embedded compilers. This implies he works with older technology.

The one thing not on his list specifically, which it sounds like should be, is "has drivers for Windows 98." That's going to be well nigh impossible to find, but he can use VMware or whatever to run Windows 98 instead.

Re:ehh

[FreeFull]

You should have just changed your DPI to fit your monitor

Thinkpad maybe?

[Ritchie70]

I don't think you're going to find an internal floppy drive. Just not going to happen.

The Thinkpad optical drive bay used to support floppy drives, but that doesn't seem to be the case on modern products. It does support a wide variety of optical drives or an additional battery. No memory card reader, but my T500 has an SD slot built in. (I think it's SD, I've never used it.)

There are models that can have dual hard drives but I think they're the expensive ones. I'm not sure what the benefit of that is anyhow.

As a business-oriented laptop it supports a docking station.

With the accessories you want, you might get a mid-range one for $1,200. I'm really not sure. I didn't see the bill for my T500.

But I'd challenge that anyhow. If you're replacing a current work laptop, you should have a budget similar to what that one cost. (I'm assuming this is being paid for by your company, not you.) I doubt the one you have now, with accessories, was less than $1,200, and that doesn't account for inflation.

But all I can really suggest is spending a lot of time shopping. Look at HP, Dell, Gateway, Lenovo, Toshiba and see what product lines they have match your needs. I'm pretty sure some of the Dell line can do dual hard drives and batteries in the optical drive port, but I don't know about the rest.

And don't expect Windows 98 to run at all. You're going to need some sort of virtualization for that. I use VMware, but that's because it's the product I know. You may find that the performance of Linux and Windows 98 virtualized on the new laptop is as good as native on the old one, and for all the grief we give Windows here, you're going to have an easier time with drivers for Windows for brand new hardware than with Linux.

Re:The only devs that Macs are good for are Mac de

[EvilTwinSkippy]

Well when you use the adjective "best", you pretty much eliminate a claim to "cheap".

And at $1100, a 13" Macbook has been ideal for my purposes. It's usable on an airplane. Powerful enough to run all of my development kits. I can kick off Linux and Windows XP when I need to target those platforms (especially handy when the boss needs a new build and I'm 3 time zones away at a conference.)

Re:The only devs that Macs are good for are Mac de

[EvilTwinSkippy]

Depends on your definition of a "good OSS citizen." In the scary government research/mad scientist corporate research market BSD licensed code is ideal. We *can* use it, because releasing our source code would, in fact, violate either DMSO or corporate licensing arrangements.

There's more than one way to skin a cat, and frankly when our company makes something that we see as useful, but not a core product, we do release it and/or submit patches back to whence it came. I just like not having some idiot ramrodding us for not giving proprietary information out to our competitors.

(And why Tcl/Tk is under the hood of many secret squirrel projects.)

Re:ehh

[amorsen]

The question I have is how much squinting at fine fonts I'd do at 1920x1200 on only 17" of screen

Perhaps you should consider an operating system where you can adjust font sizes... The better ones even do it automatically for you depending on DPI.

Dell Precision, Latitdude, w/ Macbook dist. third

[kimvette]

IMHO, aside from the ridiculously-low price point you cited, the very best choice for your requirements would be the Dell Precision Mobile Workstation line. If you can't do that then consider a Dell latitude E6500. You'll get faster processors from Dell than you can buy from Apple at any price, as well as far, far more expandability and also much faster GPUs.

If you can forgo the expansion and can put up with the one-button trackpad (with it's crappy 'virtual' second button) then by all means go with a Macbook Pro. I like their notebooks a lot but the single-button trackpad is a deal breaker for me, and the cost and availability of replacement parts (they usually want $700+ for a replacement motherboard) is simply a seal on that dealbreaker.

Re:ehh

[PeterHammer]

I beg to differ. It is a matter of adjusting your expectations and your IDE layout - like we haven't done that before. In my case I have learned to like and prefer the advantages of wide over tall given a single screen limitation. On a 1920 wide screen it is easy to place two or three editor views side by side in eclipse - useful for example when dealing with multiple related classes like manager, entity and DAO classes for a given "object" in a typical enterprise app. (Just drag the document tab for a class sideways and off the main editor panel). It's not ideal - vertical space is still important - especially with the proliferation XML config files and chatty bean setters and getters, but getting used to using code folding and ouline views helps. In the end, enough that I prefer wide over tall.

(Disclaimer: my 'primary' desktop workstation has three widescreens with one oriented sideways for max vertical scrolling power - I never said I did not like vertical space).

Re:ehh

[PeterHammer]

Hardware floppy drives are indeed obsolete. Welcome to the wonderful era of virtualization where he can have as many windows 98 "boxes" as he likes, all with their very own virtual floppy disks.

Re:ehh

[Hybridan]

A Macbook Pro despite being a very nice piece of Hardware, does not meet several of the stated requirements in the OP. This is why it is a good idea to read the OP.

Re:ehh

[teslafreak]

I work for a company that has been exclusively a Dell shop for a few years. You're right on the money here, I tell clients to avoid hibernating at all (we run Windows XP, if that matters)

Thinkpad, Thinkpad, Thinkpad

[mcalwell]

T Series - bulletproof, robust, great with Linux, go forever. Also IBM/Lenovo provide fantastic replacement manuals giving descriptions of how to disassemble the unit step by step. I repaired an old T23 the other day and it's fantastic. Also, Thinkpad Docks are great and cheap. I have a dock at home and at work and just shuffle the machine back and forth. Never looked back.

Re:ehh

[Weedhopper]

Which only demonstrates that you're talking out your ass. More horizontal space = more multiple side by side windows.

Yet you've failed to refute it

[Rix]

Why would someone for whom a $599 Dell is sufficient want to pay $1,150 for the cheapest MacBook?

Re:Yet you've failed to refute it

[ooglek]

Because both my wife and my father have purchased $599 Dells in the past, and after about 2-3 years they need to be replaced. With the Mac, sure you might overbuy hardware, but damn (my experience) it lasts and works great! I used to have to get a new computer every 2-3 years, and after switching to Macs, I haven't needed to because both the OS and Hardware continue to work well and now slow down.

Re:Yet you've failed to refute it

[Jane Q. Public]

If a $599 Dell is "sufficient" for you, then you're probably not much of a developer.

I am not making an accusation... but those are the odds.

Re:Yet you've failed to refute it

[10Ghz]

Why would someone for whom a $599 Dell is sufficient want to pay $1,150 for the cheapest MacBook?

If $599 Dell is sufficient for your needs, great! But it's not comparable to the $1150 MBP. MBP might cost more, but it's also more pleasant to use. I have tried out those uber-cheap lapstops. They look and feel cheap. They are clumsy, big and heavy.

The Dell (or whatever) might be cheap. But using it would not be a pleasant experience. I'm willing to pay extra for a computer that is enjoyable to use and lasts for a long time.

Re:ehh

[dmesg0]

I used to have a15.4" Dell M65 with 1920x1200 resolution. In most cases you can make your fonts larger, and they simply look better because of all the extra resolution. Only a few (old applications) looked too small.

anything

[Yaos]

Any laptop meeting the screen size, processor speed, memory size, and hard drive size will work. You can use a virtual machine for Windows 98 and you won't need to hot swap anything, or replace anything when it's off either. If you have a terrible program that requires a floppy drive because it took it's lessons from the Windows XP install, the virtual machine should take care of that for you.

Re:MacBook Pro

[xouumalperxe]

Well, Apple's 24" LED display is almost a docking station in and of itself (expensive as it is...)

Re:ehh

[axp_bofh]

My 55+ year old eyes work fine hour after hour on my 17" MacBookPro at the native 1920X1200 resolution. Typically, I run 6-9 virtual screens at time.

The machine is fast, utterly reliable (uptimes only limited by time between major s/w updates), light, cool running and has one of the best keyboard and trackpad sets around.

Did they really?

[Rix]

Or did they just want an upgrade? Was there anything wrong with them that a reinstall of Windows wouldn't fix?

Re:brutal honesty

[flydpnkrtn]

Hey I thought Mac zealots were going with 'Infidel', not 'Heathen'! Heathen is so... dark ages

Infidel!

:-)

HP EliteBook 8730w

[rhook]

http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF25a/321957-321957-64295-3740645-3955549-3784202.html These are nice notebooks, and with the ultra life battery that attaches to the bottom you can get up to 12 hours of battery life.

Re:ehh

[tomhudson]

The reason you need to swap the battery is because there is no external power to plug the thing in to.

Eventually, you're going to need external power one way or another, or you'll have a brick and 2 dead batteries.

Just suspend to disk if it's that big a deal. Or better yet, shut it down and swap the batteries. After a few hours, you should be taking a break anyways.

Re:ehh

[tomhudson]

1280x800 on a 15" screen (my work laptop) is not enough resolution to actually do any modern development work in, and the pixels are just a little bit too large. 1440x900 might be okay. 1680x1050 might have too small pixels. But on a 17" display, 1680x1050 (or 1600x900 for the new 16:9 screens) sounds like a good resolution.

That's why $DIETY invented external 2nd monitors. No compromising.

At least you can get your IDE on that without feeling cramped.

Not really - once you've gone dual screens anything less is just an exercise in frustration. The efficiencies of 2 monitors just make sense.

Re:ehh

[hattig]

Totally, I have an additional monitor at work which makes work doable. Just on the road it's awkward (e.g,. travelling to head office on the train). Still, it's not too often. But I do think that 1280x800 is too low a resolution for a 15" laptop still, hence it just gets used for web browsing and email. Why web browsing? The TFT is one of those that can only be seen within a range of 10 degrees from perpendicular, so nobody else can see what's on the screen...

And with the price of 22" to 24" monitors being so low, relative to history, no real excuse for not having one at home even if you're tied to a laptop.

Mac laptop with integrated graphics

[a1291762]

Um... You can get both a 13" and 15" Mac laptop with integrated graphics. The addition of integrated graphics in the 15" form factor was one of the things I liked about the last refresh. Even if you get a higher end 15" model or the 17" model you still get integrated graphics in addition to the discrete graphics so while you can't avoid the cost of the discrete graphics on these higher end systems you don't need to suffer the battery penalty discrete graphics brings. The discrete graphics adds maybe $100 to the cost of the machines it's on and at $3200 AUD for the cheapest Mac laptop with discrete graphics it's hardly an unbearable cost if you decide you don't need it.

Compared to the PC world, Apple certainly does have an anaemic product line but you can't force them to make a computer just for you. Apple makes premium machines so they're always going to cost more than merely average machines. If you don't demand a premium product, look elsewhere. Personally, I find the PC world to be a sea of bad to mediocre products. Sure they're cheap but I don't want a fat machine, or a machine that flexes when I pick it up, or something that's unreasonably heavy. Perhaps there are premium PCs out there but I haven't seen them for sale around here.

Re:Mac laptop with integrated graphics

[10Ghz]

Um... You can get both a 13" and 15" Mac laptop with integrated graphics. The addition of integrated graphics in the 15" form factor was one of the things I liked about the last refresh. Even if you get a higher end 15" model or the 17" model you still get integrated graphics in addition to the discrete graphics so while you can't avoid the cost of the discrete graphics on these higher end systems you don't need to suffer the battery penalty discrete graphics brings.

If you don't want discrete graphics, you could always leave it unused. The models with discrete graphics also had integrated graphics, so you could use that instead.

They're out there

[Rix]

You just don't see them that often because people don't want them. The PC market provides what people demand. Apple provides what's Apple wants to sell.

Re:They're out there

[10Ghz]

You just don't see them that often because people don't want them. The PC market provides what people demand. Apple provides what's Apple wants to sell.

This is free market, right? If Apple did not offer products that consumers did not want, their sales would tank. But looking at their sales, they seem to be offering pretty desireable products.

Lenovo T400

[sudden.zero]

I am currently using a Lenovo T400 Which has a great deal of the features that you are looking for. It allows for dual monitors (which I use all the time) It has a hot swap drive slot which will accomodate a CD/DVD RW, Hard Drive not sure about an extra battery however I seem to get about 4 hours out of the one battery I have with the IBM battery Miser that is built in. You can get an awesome docking station with pretty much everything you are looking for and I am booting win2000 (I know it's not 98 but I don't have a copy of that to give it a try), winXP, and Suse Linux. It has 2 Gig of Ram a 180 Gig drive and a Intel Centrino Duo core running a 2 GHtz and a Radion HD 3400 Video Card. This machine does great for me and it is in your price range as well (I picked it up for a little over a thousand but it looks like they are going for 749.00 http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:category.details?current-catalog-id=12F0696583E04D86B9B79B0FEC01C087&current-category-id=19C791A03AF24034A0011B825513BCED/ now.

Re:ehh

[rainmaestro]

And as far as OS X itself is concerned, I essentially have a Linux machine, with all common Linux tools available to me, with the additional plus of a superior UI. (Superior to Linux, that is. It is debatable whether the UI is superior to Windows, though some people feel that it is.)

*gags* Give me my vanilla XFCE UI any day. That annoying little app bar on Macs, having to quit the app through the menu bar (can't just click the little close button like the rest of the world, eh?), etc. The UI is my *biggest* complaint about Macs. God, I'd even take KDE 4.X over it.

Re:ehh

[nedlohs]

Yes eventually you have to recharge, but the idea was for those times between access to power.

And it's all about "Yeah, because nothing's quite so convenient as hibernating your laptop, swapping out the batteries, and resuming." so yes suspending to disk was explicitly mentioned as being a big deal.

Re:MacBook Pro

[DaveV1.0]

Oh, look, I am being mod-stalked by the Apple fanboys!

I can tell you one laptop NOT to get:

[Trixter]

I ordered a Dell Studio 15 filled to the brim with Blu-ray goodness (ie. I took the stock config and added a BDROM, opted for the 1080p LED screen, and an ATI Radeon 4850 for decoding). While it plays Blu-rays brilliantly, the keyboard -- I am not making this up -- lacks a BREAK key. There is no way to hit Ctrl-Break on this laptop. Dell opted for some stupid multimedia function key where BREAK would normally go and there is NO ALTERNATIVE. Without ctrl-break, debugging on this machine is essentially not an option. And the best part is, it can't be remapped because ctrl-break is a three-byte scancode (all others are two) and cannot be remapped in Windows.

So, do NOT get a Dell Studio 15. I recommend Dell, but not that one. If you go for a Dell, make sure to look close-up at the photographs of the keyboard, and don't buy a model without a Break...

Re:The only devs that Macs are good for are Mac de

[Jane Q. Public]

You completely missed a point I made. With my Mac, I can develop for Mac, *nix, OR Windows, any time I want. No other platform will do that, unless you want to struggle to try to get every single one of your Windows development tools and IDEs running under Wine. Good luck with that.

Re:ehh

[Jane Q. Public]

I thought about including that but I left it out for two reasons: (1) its legality is debatable, and (2) in effect, a "hackintosh" is nothing but an artificially-created Mac. So most if not all of the same points still apply.

Re:ehh

[Jane Q. Public]

You are describing manufacturing defects. Those do not imply problems with the engineering. Lots of PCs have manufacturing defects, too, that are equally unrelated to the engineering that went into them.

Re:ehh

[Jane Q. Public]

But my facts ARE supported, by the very magazine articles I mentioned. Here is the problem: you are comparing your no-name, custom-built PC to a Mac. (I have no choice but to presume that since you did not mention a major brand name, there isn't one.)

The comparisons mentioned were between major brands, and that is the only fair way they can be compared. I could make exactly the same argument you have, when building my own PC versus just about any major brand of PC. So you don't really have an argument... the discussions are about two different things.

Re:ehh

[Jane Q. Public]

Yes, it certainly is advisable to read the OP. So why didn't you? The OP asked for the best development machine (albeit $1200 or less), and "with the same flexibility", although he was "open to change".

As for the other requirements, with the exception of swappable drive a Mac laptop can meet most of them. Rather than a "docking station", I have a Bluetooth keyboard and mouse. So I just plug in my external monitor, and I have a working home "docking station"-type setup with no further hassle.

So yeah, I did read the OP, apparently with a bit more comprehension than you did.

Re:ehh

[Animixer]

Perhaps on his end, yes; but the physical floppy drive used to load instructions/firmware on the legacy hardware device is still going to be present.

I personally have an early 80's Ensoniq Mirage 8-bit sampler that needs to load its OS (16kb) and initial sample set off of low-density 3.5" floppy disks with a specific format.

Easy: Lenovo T60p

[Civil_Disobedient]

The single best laptop ever made.

http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=2864

Pros:

• IPS display gives you nearly 180 degrees viewing angle -- no more of the annoying color shifts or inversion when looking at the screen off-axis
• Native 1600x1200 resolution in a 15" form-factor. Wide-screen displays are teh suck for coding. The T60p's "standard" display ratio and absolutely insane resolution means you can fit dozens of lines of code per page. Combine this with the beautiful IPS technology, and you have tiny-ass, legible fonts. A godsend for coding.
• 15" form factor-- pretty-much the best trade-off for "I need to read lots of code" and "I don't want to lug around a lot of weight." Additionally, the T60p is (like most ThinkPads) all modular. So you can leave out the optical drive and put in another battery if you like (giving you 7+ hours of battery life).
• ThinkPads are the greatest Linux-friendly laptops in the world.
• The processor/RAM combination is perfectly adequate (i.e., not some underpowered piece of shit)

The only drawback to the T60p is that they are discontinued, and Lenovo no longer carries the IPS LCD. Why not? Because the suppliers realized they could make more money using the technology to build TVs than replacement screens for laptops. More information from a Lenovo insider. And if the suppliers aren't making them, Lenovo can't sell them. Simple as that. You can still find them (rarely) on eBay, but they are some of the most price-drop-resilient laptops ever made.

Re:ehh

[ejtttje]

I personally think Macbooks feel flimsy and I'm hardly alone in this

Have you picked up one of the current unibody models? Those things are solid. And I agree with GP that Apple has a good reputation here beyond the current line -- my old iBook held up great under daily travel in a backpack, whereas my wife's HP has bits and pieces falling off and it barely ever leaves the house.

Really?

[Rix]

I'm writing this on a $700 Core Duo I bought in 2007. It's not my primary workstation, but that only set me back $1200. The closest equivalent Mac is almost three grand, and has less RAM.

Re:Really?

[Jane Q. Public]

Well, perhaps I misunderstood, but it seemed to me that you were saying that a $599 laptop was "sufficient" for you.

Re:ehh

[10Ghz]

Exactly. If we look at cars VAG makes, they range from Skoda Fabia to Bugatti Veyron. Hell, both Fabia and Veyron has four wheel and internal combustion engine, so by that logic they must be more or less identical?

Re:ehh

[tomhudson]

Agreed that 1280x800 on a 17" would suck, but 1440 x 900 is actually quite nice - especially if you plug an external 1920x1200 (or like I did for fun, a 50" 1920x1080 plasma - even youtube looks good on that :-)

Re:ehh

[tomhudson]

Err, if he's running an image, he doesn't need a floppy.

Re:ehh

[10Ghz]

The Mac has the same hardware that every other manufacturer uses. There's nothing "better tested" about it

Computers are more than just random collection of electronics.

and I don't buy that their "engineering" is better.

Huh? Have you ever tried to compare a Mac to a PC? I have a Lenovo T61 at work, which is considered best-of-breed PC-laptop there is. And it's a good machine. But it's still plastic. It still creaks. It doesn't feel as solid as my non-unibody-MBP at home (the unibody-MBP's feel like solid slab of metal).

Hell, how about doing a simple test: can you open the lid of your laptop with one hand? I have noticed that most PC-laptops are so unbalanced that you need two hands to oppen the lid: one to open the lid, the other to hold the base down. On a Mac, I can do that with one hand. Sure, things like that might not be important, but it tells about dedication to details.

Or how about powercables? I have seen several PC-laptops at work that have broken down when someone tripped on the powercord. That does not happen on a Mac.

Or why PC-laptops still don't have backlit-keyboards?

Re:The only devs that Macs are good for are Mac de

[10Ghz]

I stand correctly. The devs that Macs are good for are Mac devs and Unix devs who have money to blow on overpriced hardware

What makes Macs "overpriced"? Are you one of those people who think that value of a computer can be determined by staring at a bunch of specs that are listed on a piece of paper?

If it's sufficient to the job

[Rix]

Then it is comparable to anything else also sufficient for the job.

I'd argue the opposite, that the $599 Dell is likely to be more pleasant to use for most people. Few people really want 13" laptops.

And I'm writing this on a $700 Core Duo bought in 2007 that I'll be loathe to upgrade because it has a proper, angled keyboard.

Re:If it's sufficient to the job

[10Ghz]

Then it is comparable to anything else also sufficient for the job.

To some people, a 300 bucks netbook would be sufficient for the job. But that still does not mean that it's a comparable machine to MBP.

I'd argue the opposite, that the $599 Dell is likely to be more pleasant to use for most people.

Go right ahead and make that claim.

Few people really want 13" laptops.

Your source for that claim is.... what? They seem to be buying computers with 10" screen, they are buying computers with 15" screen... why not 13" screens as well?

Re:If it's sufficient to the job

[Rix]

To some people, a 300 bucks netbook would be sufficient for the job. But that still does not mean that it's a comparable machine to MBP.

It is for those people. For someone who needs a $300 netbook, a MacBook has a $850 Mac Tax.

Your source for that claim is.... what? They seem to be buying computers with 10" screen, they are buying computers with 15" screen... why not 13" screens as well?

Don't be dense. If there wasn't a demand for a wide and ranging array of configurations, they wouldn't be available. That they are shows that people want them.

Re:ehh

[10Ghz]

*gags* Give me my vanilla XFCE UI any day. That annoying little app bar on Macs

Why is it annoying to have the menubar in a predictable place that adheres to Fitts law?

having to quit the app through the menu bar

You can also quit with a keyboard-shortcut....

(can't just click the little close button like the rest of the world, eh?)

Why should closing the app-window also close the app?

Nope

[Rix]

Apple has a government sanctioned monopoly on OS X. That's the whole point; Apple specifically blocks the free market PC hardware ecosystem.

Re:Nope

[10Ghz]

Apple has a government sanctioned monopoly on OS X.

So, you are basically complaining about the fact that Apple has a monopoly ON THEIR OWN PRODUCT? Do you also complain because Adobe has a monopoly on Photoshop? Or that Microsoft has a monopoly on Xbox?

That's the whole point; Apple specifically blocks the free market PC hardware ecosystem.

Apple is part of free market, and their products compete in a free market. Their product has some differentiating features that their competitors lack (like OS X). Why is that a problem? Should all products be identical? Why exactly should Apple be forced to license their software to others?

Microsoft has chosen a business-strategy where they license their software to just about everyone. And PC-OEMs have chosen to license their OS from a third-party (usually Microsoft). Does that mean that everyone should adopt similar strategy? No. Apple has chosen to develop their own OS that only ships with their own hardware. That's their choice.

Re:ehh

[tomhudson]

Even under linux, hibernating a laptop to swpa bateries is no big deal - just close the lid if you're too lazy to mouse over to "suspend to disk", wait for the hd indicator to stop flashing, and swap the batteries. Then open the lid, hold down the power button, and back to work really fast. This way, the laptop only has the weight of one battery at a time - added benefit.

Re:ehh

[loutr]

Well if out of a hundred identical bridges only one collapsed, I'd assume it was a construction defect. Do all unibody MBP bend like that ? As a prospective laptop buyer, that's the question I'd like answered.

Re:ehh

[miasmic]

Thing is, most people don't realise how much closer they sit to a laptop screen than a monitor screen on a desk. A 26" screen the same distance away as a laptop screen on your lap would appear too large. My 17" has a 1920x1200 and it has never caused me to squint, even with the default font size. Sure, I can't put it on the ground a few feet away and still read things like if it was lower res, but on my lap or on a table top it's great and I'd hate to have to use a lower res again. It's particularly good for photo editing and design work.

I would recommend trying to find a screen with a 16:10 ratio rather than 16:9 if it's going to be used to any sort of work - You need all the screen height you can get. Though laptop makers seem to be mostly moving to 16:9, I heard that these panels are cheaper to produce (maybe because they can be shared with TVs?).

One thing that I wish someone had told me about, if you work with web stuff, changing font DPIs in windows settings also affects the way Internet Explorer renders web pages - I tore my hair out trying to discover why sites I was working on showed bigger text in Internet Explorer than any other browsers. I had only increased the DPI setting by a couple of points and at default it doesn't really make any difference to readability so I have just left it there.

Point of terminology

[tepples]

Languages don't compile. Compilers compile languages.

I was using "language compiles" in the sense of "language can be compiled by a compiler". If there exists no public compiler from language A to instruction set B, then language A does not compile to B.

Re:ehh

[hazydave]

Well, back in December of 2007, I did the comparison. I looked at the 17" MacBook versus the 17" HP I eventually bought. The HP exceeded the MacBook in every aspect except two: the MacBook offered 800Mb/s Firewire, versus 400Mb/s on the HP. And it could be had with a 2.6GHz processor -- only Apple was getting those back then, at least that month... and it was something like $300 more than the 2.4GHz processor. The HP ran me $1280, the Apple was $2999. And I don't believe the Apple was of greater build quality in any significant way.... I'm not gentle on my laptops, most only last me about two years, but this one is coming on on the two-year anniversary still going strong.

Re:ehh

[tomhudson]

Most of the time, my laptop is either at least as far away as a desktop screen (it's sitting on my desk) or even further (it's sitting on a table in the living room). Even on your lap, the laptop is further away than your desktop screen.

Laptops are only good as dev machines if you have a second screen hooked up to them. Then again ANY developer who doesn't have at least 2 screens going at the same time really needs to ask why they hobble themselves intentionally. Web development really needs 2 machines and 3 screens, because of the need for compatibility testing, so a laptop is also useful then, either as the primary or secondary box.

Even for those like myself who refuse to use an IDE (clunky, boring, stupid, gets in the way, whatever the excuse of the day is) two screens are just such an improvement in terms of workflow.

Re:ehh

[tomhudson]

Even if you're running some long process that you don't want to interrupt, suspend-to-disk and restore works fine, so you don't need a second internal battery, just a spare. Heck, it even works fine for resuming interrupted updates under suse (found out the hard way when I did 8 gigs of updates and forgot to plug the adapter in. Automatically suspended to disk half-way through - plugging the power in and pressing the power button, it reconnected and continued without a hiccup). This whole "I don't want to take a minute to swap batteries" is just SO contrived.

I was simply countering your argument

[Rix]

You argued that Apple was subject to a free market, and I pointed out that they are not. We can argue back and forth over whether copyright is a justified imposition on the market, but it's indisputable that it is an imposition.

Re:I was simply countering your argument

[10Ghz]

You argued that Apple was subject to a free market, and I pointed out that they are not.

Um, yes they are. Or do you think that every product that has some unique feature is not subject to free market? Xbox 360 has many unique features when compared to PS3, and vice versa. Yet the two are clearly competing with each other.

Macs are obviously competing with computers offered by companies like Dell, HP and so forth. To claim that they are not, is utterly retarded.

Re:ehh

[nedlohs]

Yes everything has an easy solution if you just ignore the requirements.

Most developers don't need much video hardware

[Rix]

Though some do. There's not really a core developer spec list, aside from a decent serving of RAM, a reasonably fast processor, and as big an LCD as possible.

Not that I'd argue against discrete graphics in a developer workstation (especially when I'm not the one footing the bill ;). For my part when I do pay for it, I buy decent graphics chips on workstations and have so far done without on notebooks, though that may change in my next upgrade cycle.

Re:ehh

[tomhudson]

Or you can explain that IE compatibility is currently a shifting target, and that it will:

1. more than double the initial development time and cost
2. increase by a factor of 5 to 10 the ongoing support cost

Then give them the old "on time, on budget, on spec - pick two".

Requirements are never cast in stone - not in the face of time and budget constraints. If you don't believe that, you've never experienced feature creep.

Re:ehh

[Ritchie70]

He does if he needs to put something on an actual diskette to transfer it to another system.

There are systems still out there that don't support USB or have networking. I swear.

You use a diskette to transfer files to and from it. If that sort of a system is one he does development for, believe me, he needs a diskette drive.

Re:ehh

[tomhudson]

He does if he needs to put something on an actual diskette to transfer it to another system.

Nope - he can always use another system running a virtual image. And for older machines that don't have usb or a network card, there's always the serial port (telix is a great program for that, and I've used it to grab the data from REALLY old unix boxes - circo the early '80s).

There's ALWAYS an alternative.

Re:ehh

[nedlohs]

Except we aren't talking about software development.

We are talking about simple preferences.

"I don't want to have to hibernate to swap batteries" can't just be answered with "it's easy you close the lid and wait for it to hibernate and then swap the batteries" by anyone wanting to provide a useful answer.

"That will add far to much complexity so you are stuck with hibernating" is a perfectly fine answer (though the fact that older laptops managed makes it seem an unlikely one). But just disregarding the only requirement is stupid.

"I'd like chocolate ice cream, please". "Here you go, have a scoop of vanilla, and you will like it!".

Re:ehh

[tomhudson]

Not to be rude, but RTFA:

The extra battery option is especially appreciated -- I can go 4-5 hours on battery power.

Nowhere in TFA does the person say that they can't swap batteries - just that they want to be able to run on battery power for a total of 4-5 hours. A laptop with a single battery that lasts 4-5 hours would also meet the spec just fine, as would a spare battery, or a laptop powered by a long-duration fuel cell, or even Mr. Fusion.

Re:ehh

[Jane Q. Public]

And the answer is: of course they don't. All manufacturers will have occasional failures (if they don't, they are not doing their jobs properly). If those failures become common, people stop buying the product. This has never happened with Apple.

Re:ehh

[Jane Q. Public]

Sorry, but that's not true. Yes, the same big corporation might control the manufacture, but it happens differently today. Most Porsches (and definitely most Volkswagons) are most likely assembled, if not built, here in the United States. It is hard to compare the situations.

Copyright is not a free market system

[Rix]

I don't really understand how that's not obvious.

Re:Copyright is not a free market system

[10Ghz]

So you are saying that there is no free market at all? I mean, only Lenovo can sell Thinkpads, so therefore they are not part of free market, right?

Your arguments are dumb and retarded,

You're projecting

[Rix]

Dell can sell something functionally equivalent to a Thinkpad, so yes, there's a mostly free market for "Thinkpads". Dell is legally prohibited from selling something functionally equivalent to a MacBook.

Re:ehh

[nedlohs]

The TFA is irrelevant, the reply was to a post here which stated:

"Yeah, because nothing's quite so convenient as hibernating your laptop, swapping out the batteries, and resuming."

Re:brutal honesty

[Gary W. Longsine]

It should take you about two seconds to find them. Do your own homework.

Re:brutal honesty

[Gary W. Longsine]

Oh, and you need to look up the meaning of "hypocrite" while you're at it. You clearly don't understand what it means.

Re:ehh

[Ritchie70]

I've worked on systems like I describe, so I'm not sure why you believe such a thing doesn't exist.

There are computers that have no usable serial or network port for external communication but do have a diskette drive. Many of them are running MS-DOS.

You seem to believe you can write to a diskette image, then use that on a different virtual machine. But not everything can or should be virtualized - you ultimately have to test on and deploy to the actual hardware in the actual world.

Re:ehh

[tomhudson]

TFA is *always* relevant, despite this being slashdot. and as I pointed out, you CAN fix your laptop so that you can use an external batter pack and hot-swap, if you really want to, for under $5 of parts, so what is the problem again?

Re:ehh

[tomhudson]

If they don't have a serial port, look for a parallel port - you can do bi-directional communications through that in a pinch, even if the port isn't bi-directional (you only get 4 bits at a time, but so what - files that fit on a 5-/4 or 8" floppy aren't going to be THAT big - and all machines with 3-1/2" floppies have serial ports).. Or just run the drive cable to another machine. There's ALWAYS more than one way to do it.

Look, if you're REALLY stuck, here's how

[tomhudson]

No serial port, no parallel port, no network card, you can STILL transfer files.

1. Dig up an old infrared keyboard.
2. Plug the receiver into the target machine - it'll appear just like a regular keyboard.
3. Cannibalize the keyboard. You want to hook up the infra-red LED to your serial port. If you can't find instructions on the net (this is not an original project, so you SHOULD be able to find a howto), find a thirsty EE and offer them beer and pizza for their assistance.
4. Trigger the led, via the serial port on YOUR machine, to send the keyboard scan codes to the target machine for the following:
5. DEBUG [filename]
6. E (may not be this command - it's been a few decades :-)
7. send the file, byte by bite, in hex.
8. RCX [value] (set the register to the program length )
9. W
10. Q

Voila, your computer has typed in the program for you, without anything more than a keyboard interface on the target machine. Sorry that I can't take credit for the idea, but the good thing about it is that it will work with any computer that has a keyboard and a copy of debug (and all versions of dos shipped with debug). Nice way of getting around security when they've filled in the USB plugs, removed the optical drive, etc. (But if they think that disabling serial port in the bios and pasword-protecting the bios works, just use debug to set the ports to their proper non-zero addresses in the bios, and you should now have working serial ports again).

TAMTOWTDI

Re:Look, if you're REALLY stuck, here's how

[tomhudson]

Sure it's nutzo, but it's been done ... desperation is the REAL mother of invention.

Re:ehh

[iamacat]

But then you end up with the equivalent of your low resolution desktop with somewhat prettier looking fonts but the same effective real estate. As for images, either your UI will be messed up by bigger fonts or textures will become jagged or blurry from being displayed at non-native resolution.

Well, yeah

[Rix]

As I said, I'm using a laptop I paid $700 for over two years ago. A new $599 laptop would be an upgrade for me.

Re:ehh

[pantherace]

The brand is ASUS. You may have heard of them. If you want to talk about major brands, in terms of laptop sales, they were #8 in laptops shipped with Apple being #7, in 2008, with the 2nd smallest gap (the smallest being between Asus and Sony(#9), Granted, all three were each only 4-5% of the market. Asus is also growing faster than Apple, but both were up a large amount 67 and 61% over 2007, a pretty good comparison by the numbers.)

And we are discussing laptops. Frankly good luck being able to buy the components to build your own for less than a laptop, if you can more power to you. ASUS is #5 in the world, and likely to be higher shortly.