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Ubisoft's DRM Cracked — For Real This Time

therufus writes "A few days after the release of Assassin's Creed 2, naughty piracy sites were announcing they had cracked Ubisoft's Online Services Platform. Turns out, that wasn't entirely true. While it was possible to load into the game, players were unable to advance past a certain memory block. But now, it seems Ubisoft will need to draft a new response. A new crack has begun circulating that removes the DRM entirely."

443 comments

  1. Let The Excuses Begin by WrongSizeGlass · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm not a fan of 'Piracy' at all, but Ubisoft DRM tactics are draconian, ridiculous, and are just begging for the attention of those who break DRM for fun or profit.

    Ubisoft has brought this upon themselves and now they'll use the fact that their "unbreakable" DRM has been broken to justify their further efforts. Asshats!

    1. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by causality · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Ubisoft has brought this upon themselves and now they'll use the fact that their "unbreakable" DRM has been broken to justify their further efforts. Asshats!

      The reasonable approach would be "Unbreakable? Yeah we've heard THAT before, no thanks, let's not waste money bothering with this. Lets use the programmers who would be designing complex DRM systems and have them join the team that's actually creating the game." Unfortunately I think that what you said will come to pass. They won't recognize that "try harder" is not the correct way to deal with a failed idea.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    2. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sales up = yay our DRM works!
      Sales down = our DRM is clearly not strong enough!

      Sadly.

    3. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by teh31337one · · Score: 1

      *sigh* I hope Ubisoft have learnt a lesson from all of this, but sadly it seems like they are intent on alienating their customers. I'd love to see this draconian DRM actually lowering sales for their new releases. DRM like this only hurts legitimate customers, and the "pirates" end up with a better game. It's happened before with games like GTA IV where the securom DRM actually lowered the performance of the game, and sadly it will happen again.

    4. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by Dachannien · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In that respect, DRM is like a witch trial directed at legitimate paying customers. If the DRM stays intact, the witch sinks and dies, and the DRM perpetuates its own myth by "proving" its own success. If the DRM is cracked, the witch floats and lives only to be burned at the stake, and the DRM perpetuates its own myth by "proving" the need for harsher measures.

      Either way, the DRM isn't really doing anything but killing witches - I mean, eliminating paying customers.

    5. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by countertrolling · · Score: 1

      Correction:

      Sales up = yay our DRM works!
      Sales down = Damn pirates! There oughta be a law!

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    6. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by MrHanky · · Score: 1

      Brought what upon themselves? The so-called scene groups always try to crack any copy protection, and so far they've always succeeded in the end.

    7. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by ElKry · · Score: 1

      I swear this has to be said every week because some people just can't read:

      iTunes has no music DRM since forever ago . Therefore your entire rant is just pointless.

    8. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by sonicmerlin · · Score: 1

      Um...what? iTunes doesn't DRM its music files anymore.

      Nor has any scientific evidence ever been provided that piracy negatively affects sales. Maybe you're the one who should stop complaining?

    9. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Which is why you should always be a pirate and use the third option: your very own ship to sail away with the booty!

    10. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My LEGIT copy still doesnt run on my Mac. No response from there tech support.
      Now the DRM is cracked? it just keeps getting better. Why bother paying for software that doesnt work right out of the box, and isnt being supported by the vendor?

    11. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by suomynonAyletamitlU · · Score: 1

      Ubisoft has brought this upon themselves

      Brought what upon themselves?

      Are you trying to say games with more permissive DRM have NOT been cracked? Or that games without DRM haven't been stolen?

    12. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by Dekker3D · · Score: 1

      past expirience, ac. i don't know how thís drm will turn out because i haven't bought assassin's creed 2 on the pc (and drm on the ps3 isn't all that bad), but i've had a couple of windows installations come to a crashing halt, needing to be reinstalled, after a run-in with various drm schemes. don't even bother trying to bring up linux or macs: since when has drm ever allowed games to be played on those?

    13. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by DreadPiratePizz · · Score: 1

      Given that typically most of a game's sales happen early in its life, any DRM that keeps the game from being pirated for a while has done its job. Let's say it takes 6 months to crack your DRM. It's already paid for itself. Depending on the game, you could even crack it in 2 months and have it be a net gain.

    14. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by DAldredge · · Score: 1

      If all those people who downloaded Conan O'Brein had actually watched the show the little incident would never had happened because he would have been bringing in large numbers of viewers.

    15. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Well, since paying customers weigh the same as ducks, they are all witches and deserve to be burned at the stake, obviously.

      Once again Science and Justice rule the day!

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    16. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      I personally cannot wait till Apple takes over the market, open source crowd will shit their pants and realize how easy they had it with MS.

      Apple will never take over the market until they license their OS to other hardware manufacturers.

      Apple will never license their OS to other hardware manufacturers (hardware is actually their bread and butter, not software), ergo Apple will remain at the roughly 5% (it fluctuates, but always seems to come back) market share they've held for the last two decades.

      If they were ever going to take over the market, they'd have done so by now. They need to crush hundreds of hardware manufacturers and thousands of software manufacturers in order to take over the market without any kind of OS licensing. Apple hardware and OSX is nice, but it's nowhere near that nice.

      Keep dreaming fanboy.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    17. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by thinsoldier · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Asshattery indeed. If only they realized that this good news FINALLY means it makes sense for me to BUY Assassins Creed 2 AND Splinter Cell Conviction.

    18. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by moco · · Score: 1

      So, paying customers are made of wood?

      --
      moi
    19. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Indeed, different company, but same issue here: I was going to buy Spore when it came out, because it sounded cool. When I found out about the DRM that amounts to their installing a rootkit on my system, I just downloaded the cracked version instead. I figure if they're going to treat me like a criminal from the get-go, why not earn the punishment? Turns out I had a much easier time of things than most anybody who actually paid for and installed the software. Go figure.

      It's like the parents who leave the house for the afternoon, and tell the kids they have to do chores/homework and aren't allowed to watch any TV. Instead of trusting the kids at all, or even waiting till they get back to determine if they broke the rules and watched TV, the parents decide to punish the kids ahead of time because they know they'll break the rule anyway. Well, since they've already been punished for it, why wouldn't the kids watch TV when they aren't supposed to?

      These fucked up DRM schemes are exactly the same - if I'm going to be punished for following the rules (heavy restrictions on use, rootkits, compatibility issues, etc), why the hell would I follow the rules? A lot of people already know most cracked versions are easier and more convenient to play compared to the retail versions, so where is the incentive to buy retail? Some people are honest enough to buy retail and then get the cracks, but you're still breaking the law so why bother buying in the first place?

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    20. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by sonicmerlin · · Score: 1

      Really? So you discount the US Government Accountability Office's statement that it is "difficult, if not impossible, to quantify the economy-wide impacts."?

      http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/04/us-government-finally-admits-most-piracy-estimates-are-bogus.ars

      Here's another beautiful GAO quote: "Three commonly cited estimates of U.S. industry losses due to counterfeiting have been sourced to U.S. agencies, but cannot be substantiated or traced back to an underlying data source or methodology."

      Even the MPAA admitted its numbers were bogus: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2008/01/oops-mpaa-admits-college-piracy-numbers-grossly-inflated.ars

      So why don't you calm down, take a deep breath, and let out some of the hot air stuck in your noggin?

    21. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by JamesP · · Score: 1

      This is one post that should go all the way to eleven as in Score 11: Insightful

      --
      how long until /. fixes commenting on Chrome?
    22. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think he's trying to say that games without DRM are more successful.

      While it's hard to argue that piracy affects the bottom line of game sales (if piracy is an option, it WILL reduce demand for the retail version), there is little to no evidence that DRM measures reduce the amount of piracy. Due to their digital nature (the very thing that makes them easy to copy in the first place), once a game is cracked that particular version is cracked forever, and anybody with an internet connection can get it. Because no security can ever be 100% effective, DRM will always be cracked eventually.

      What this means is companies are spending tens of millions of dollars that buys them just a few weeks of unpirated sales. That's it, it does not take the incentive to pirate away at all, and in the long run even the most draconian DRM only has a marginal affect on the amount of piracy that occurs. Therefor, any company that spends only a minimum amount of effort on a DRM scheme saves those tens of millions of dollars at the cost of those few weeks of unpirated sales. As Ben Franklin said: "A penny saved is a penny earned."

      Assassin's Creed 2 is just one of many games that are proof positive of this fact.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    23. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You sir are the fucking retard. Yes, privacy impacts sales, but not nearly as much as anti-pirates would have you believe. The issue is that there have no formal, well thought out studies on the effects of piracy (by someone other than a company that already determined they wanted to say piracy is bad) As a matter of fact, even the torrent sites have lists of which games get pirated the most, and guess what, it is almost always the ones with more DRM. Increases in piracy in Australia have been linked to the recent bans on 18+ games. There are two points here, piracy increases are directly correlated with one thing for sure, and that is a lack of meeting customer needs and wants, and that most of the time, piracy focuses on singleplayer and still does not allow you play online multiplayer with most games, so if you really like a game, you still need to buy it to play with your friends. Another thing to keep in mind is that often piracy is used as a "game demo" to see if someone wants to buy something. I do this all the time. Half-way through Modern Warfare 2 I realized that to me the gameplay style just wasn't what I liked, I uninstalled and never thought about it again, so yes, that is a lost sale, but not because I pirated, but because I played the game and didn't like it (I'm more of a rainbow six, operation flashpoint guy) Piracy is not a simple issue, it is very complex, and idiots like you obviously don't even have half a grip on reality when you talk out of your ass about the subject. Its okay, just next time, if you don't know what your talking about, STFU, or go read some torrentfreak to get a better idea about the piracy movement. Information wants to be free.

    24. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by Pteraspidomorphi · · Score: 4, Funny

      We all are, but evil pirates keep their money in their pockets instead of spending it, and that added weight allows them to escape detection.

    25. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are seriously a fucking fat 40 year old virgin scrub living in mommies basement.

    26. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by Khyber · · Score: 1

      "My LEGIT copy still doesnt run on my Mac. No response from there tech support."

      Threaten to file a suit for theft of services.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    27. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I'm not a fan of 'Piracy'"

      Me neither, I get seasick and I'm allergic to parrot plumes.

    28. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You sir are the fucking retard. Yes, privacy impacts sales, but not nearly as much as anti-pirates would have you believe.

      I didn't read a word beyond this point.

      GP said that piracy does not impact sales because it has not been proven. I said it did impact sales, because every person knows a pirate who does occasionally buy software/products. I didn't say anything about how much it affected sales. Learn to read.

    29. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      quantifying != realization

      To quote what you said earlier, "Nor has any scientific evidence ever been provided that piracy negatively affects sales."

      It's a true statement, but very misleading, intentionally implying that piracy does not equal lost revenue because the amount cannot be determined. And obviously, that implication is false. To take on the role of BadAnalogyGuy, just because we cannot determine the number of fish in the world oceans, does not mean that fish do not exist - we have seen proof otherwise for ourselves.

    30. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oops, well in truly rare form for /., I admit to completely misreading that and ending up being an ass. Apologies. It interesting how when you get defensive about a subject it limits what you hear and read into things.

    31. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by BLKMGK · · Score: 1

      Ding Ding Ding! Spore, I did the SAME thing! I wanted the game pretty badly, it sounded cool as hell, and then I heard about the DRM. Screw that, I never bought it and no I didn't download it. If they are going to be complete asshats with the DRM I'm skipping it altogether. I also skipped Supre Commander 2 because it was Steam only and the DRM wants a 'net connection. The fact that they dumbed this game down for console play was icing on the cake - stick a fork in it I'm not interested.

      Same thing happened with music. I used to spend tons of cash on CDs but it was killing me. Then I spent bunches on used CDs. Napster was pretty cool and it let me figure out which used CDs were best to buy. When that died I pretty much stopped buying music! I played with iTunes a little but somehow managed to lose several songs and I didn't like the format. I stuck to copying other's CDs and buying used ones for a number of YEARS. Then I found Amazon. The prices are right for the most part, they aren't protected and the ID tags can be removed, and it's a format I desire! A bonus is my credit card gives me Amazon coupons for using it that I can use towards purchases.

      So, I buy music now but I don't buy it from iTunes unless Amazon hasn't got it and I REALLY want it. I have accounts where I could download it but I don't. the cost from Amazon is reasonable and there's no DRM in my way. Perhaps if I was younger I wouldn't see it this way but I grew up and I'm willing to spend a little bit for things like this. Hell I listened to a DJLobsterdust mashup the day and it reminded me of a song I wanted (he'd mashed it) so I bought it from Amazon for less than a buck.

      I own a Kindle too. I have stripped the DRM off of the books I own - about 50 of them - so I have good backups. I hate that they have DRM but their prices are (were?) decent and the selection is good, the DRM can be stripped. I have also downloaded free books and I enjoy those too. Where I see huge trouble looming is publishers seem to no longer be so interested in dealing with Amazon and wishing to push prices upwards. I'm sorry but $9.99 or less is my pricepoint. These asshats are pushing for higher prices and for an item that's as small as a half meg they're about to shoot themselves in the foot. If you thought music was bad you ain't seen nothing yet. I saw that my favorite author had a new book out in his series. I jumped on Amazon to buy it and for the first time the book was NOT available on Kindle! PirateBay had it In fact PirateBay had a small torrent of ALL of this guys books I've bought and it would have taken me maybe 20mins to get them ALL. I really prefer to pay for them but not everyone is going to be so picky....

      --
      Build it, Drive it, Improve it! Hybridz.org
    32. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have done the same thing, so I understand. But thanks for the gesture.

      I went back and read your post this time. I don't really disagree with anything. I found this interesting though:

      As a matter of fact, even the torrent sites have lists of which games get pirated the most, and guess what, it is almost always the ones with more DRM.

      Could this be explained by the average 'hit' game being bundled with more protective DRM than others? AC2 was a guaranteed hit, for instance. Some exceptions to that rule exist, of course -- like DragonAge -- but I think it fits nevertheless.

      Kudos on OFP; it was my favorite (MP) shooter.

    33. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You should really try out OFP: Dragon Rising sometime then. Rocks.

    34. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thankfully, I do not believe its illegal in Canada, since so far we've managed to avoid the DMCA.

    35. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      What this means is companies are spending tens of millions of dollars that buys them just a few weeks of unpirated sales.
      The question is how many people are there who want the game ASAP and will pirate if they can but buy it if they can't? And is that number more or less than the number who will be driven away by draconian DRM.

      And I don't think anyone can really answer that question.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    36. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by rxan · · Score: 0, Redundant

      What part about people using your software and not paying for it a 'myth'? They are simply trying to prevent non-legitimate customers from playing the game. If the DRM prevents pirates from playing the game then it is already successful.

    37. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      I say vote with your dollars. Companies like this that insist on screwing their customers over with ever nastier DRM? Well that is one company that will never get another dime from me, and this is from someone who has shelled out the bucks for games like Far Cry from Ubisoft.

      Instead support companies that don't treat their customers like shit. Right now until midnight Monday EDT GOGs is having a nice sale on some of their Sci Fi simulator games like Freespace and Descent. You can buy them individually or get all 7 games for $17! All work on X64, and most importantly all are DRM FREE, with no activations, or limited installs or other bullshit. You also get manuals and reference cards and all sorts of other goodies.

      So while I don't mind the occasional CD, as that is easy enough to get around while keeping Joe Bob from ripping copies of his CDs, this server based DRM bullshit, be it limited installs or having to be online 24/7, that shit just don't cut it. But luckily there are plenty of other places and games to by, so I can vote with my dollars, and Ubisoft can do what they like. Their games can gather dust next to the Tabula Rasa boxes at the local Walmart. I'll instead support companies like GOG that treat me like a customer and not a beggar or a thief.

      I mean, how damned sad is it when a company manages to even beat the head of Activision for douchebaggery? Man I never thought I'd live to see the day.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    38. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by badboy_tw2002 · · Score: 1

      Nonsense. The DRM worked. Its been what, months since the title came out? And just now its cracked? If you've seen other DRM systems and how quickly full cracked torrents show up, this is a fantastic success. Games are like movies in terms of shelf life, in terms of piracy you've pretty much "won" if you can keep a full copy out of the wild for this long. What will be interesting is the results that come back from this - did the title sell as well as other PC titles, did it sell more? Its kind of interesting to have a control set of data in the discussion around piracy. Who knows, maybe they won't see much of any improvement in sales and will drop the expense of developing and deploying these systems. (After all, there is a cost not only in the software, but in the customer good will. Businesses are about making money, if you can measurably show that the good will lost translates to more dollars lost than the losses to piracy, good bye DRM).

    39. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by Kitkoan · · Score: 1

      So, paying customers are made of wood?

      Knock on wood...

      --
      Attention... all grammer nazi"s! Is they're anything; wrong with: my post,
    40. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by Kitkoan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What part about people using your software and not paying for it a 'myth'? They are simply trying to prevent non-legitimate customers from playing the game. If the DRM prevents pirates from playing the game then it is already successful.

      But it's not preventing non-legitimate customers/pirates from playing the game, it's preventing its legitimate customers from playing the game do to issues with the DRM. Thus it isn't successful at all.

      --
      Attention... all grammer nazi"s! Is they're anything; wrong with: my post,
    41. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Last time someone was convinced of his unbreakable code, some subs were sunk.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    42. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The thing is, it is can be in effect 'unbreakable'. Hear me out. If a dev wanted to they could scatter these little code nuggets all throughout the code. For example on a level load or scene transition, just before a epic boss battle etc... You would literally have to crawl the WHOLE game to find them all. Perhaps you could find them by their tell tail markers of how the code is written and what it calls. But you could obfuscate it pretty well. Then convince the servers to give up all those code segments. But there will be some bored bastard out there that WILL do this. But will that 'crack' have all the code paths?

      I have been playing quite a bit of PC games lately (after dropping out around 2001 to really get into console gaming). Bought nearly 80 in the past 8 months (you can buy a lot when they are 5-10 bucks each). This means I am going backwards in time and coming across many different schemes to protect games. So far on my 64 bit win7 box the ones that are 'troublesome' are the ones that have ANY sort of DRM. Which then puts me as a paying customer in the position of having to download cracks to the game?

      The funny thing is this too. Most of the companies that have no DRM are doing pretty good (or at least still around). The ones that have DRM have usually gone under. I am thinking this DRM stuff is not cheap and these guys probably need the money for other things. Why any company that has been thru this a couple of times would put up with any DRM is beyond me. You get to pay to put it into your game because you need a dev to put it in and someone to test it. You pay to have the privilege to put it into your game. You pay yearly costs to 'support' the DRM you bought. Then you get to pay again for extra support people. Then if anything goes wrong with it you need your dev/test team involved again. Seems awfully expensive (in time and money) to put barriers in the way for people who *will* just crack it anyway?

      These DRM guys are just doing bad things too. They are doing things on the computer that are out of spec. With PC's you go out of spec and all sorts of things go wrong (even in spec it can go wrong you do not need to add more). It may work on 95% of the computers out there. But what about that 5%? That group is not going to be happy and they are going to go to the internet first, then support next. The first one costs you good will and possible future sales. The second one costs you money.

      Just telling them it is a 'failed' idea doesnt work. You need to talk like a businessman to them. Talk money and opportunity costs. That is what an MBA understands.

      To someone who just wants something for free DRM is not going to stop them. It just stalls them a little bit. To someone who has just paid money for a game it is a hassle.

      Oh and some stats. Out of the 80 or so I bought 15 or so want the disc in to play. Out of that 15 I had to get cracks for 5 to play them I left the other 10 as they are playable. And it takes nearly 2 days to install that many games on 1 computer. So not every dev out there is clueless.

    43. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not a piracy fanboi either, however, I sure as hell appreciate all the cracks freeing me from having to tote around a collection of CDs & DVDs just to play a game.

      i.e. it's bad enough when at home having to keep them all handy, and a nightmare when travelling.

      I'd rather just keep my original CDs & DVDs nicely and safely stored somewhere until I need to, if ever, do a fresh re-install again. And publisher replacement costs are downright ridiculous, so all these handy cracks also allow me to make easily useable backups on CD & DVD as well w/o having to cough up another $10-15 to a publisher and wait months for them to get around to shipping out a new one, that is, if they even have them in stock any longer.

      It's also why I'm HIGHLY reluctant to go into games that are entirely distributed digitally OR have significant digital download portions as those in the case of MOST publishers WILL be ephemeral. It's also sort of why I detest MMOs, once the server's gone there goes your $30-50 plus whatever monthly fee leaving you with a coaster.

    44. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apple has done one better. They created a 'new' market of small cheap apps tied to iTunes store. Their crazy fortunes are not from hardware but that store. They have small 'bumps' on hardware. But notice EVERY SINGLE new device they have is tied to the store? Making sure people can get to the store to buy apps, music, and videos.

      Apple used to market 3rd party. Jobs put an end to that when he came back (within a couple of months I think). Because it marginalized his profits and market share. He didnt want to be 40% of 5% market share. MS is where it is today because they, like it or hate it, make sure older applications still run. Apple has been willing to reinvent its whole platform over and over. After awhile the devs get tired of the multi platform treadmill.

    45. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those first few weeks are critical, though.

      For a big AAA title, half or more of all retail sales will happen in the first two weeks (and 10% or more in the first two days).

      If Ubisoft's draconian DRM kept the pirates from cracking Assassin's Creed 2 for several weeks, they probably consider that a solid success.

    46. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by Dan667 · · Score: 1

      Actually for some it will be a wake-up call that DRM is extremely expensive for companies eroding their margins, does nothing to stop piracy, and most pirates are also their best Customers. If you look at companies like Valve that "get it" they have changed their business model to serve Customers rather than treat them like Criminals.

    47. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by Dachannien · · Score: 1

      The biggest myth is that people who pirate your software would pay for it if pirating it were impossible. There are costs (some directly monetary, some only indirectly so) for adopting DRM, and if you don't recoup those costs in the form of sales you wouldn't have had without the DRM, then DRM is a bad business decision. The myth overestimates this number of sales dramatically and therefore encourages people to adopt DRM without really understanding the motivations of the average software pirate.

    48. Re:Let The Excuses Begin by rxan · · Score: 1

      I'm not arguing that pirates would have payed for the software because they could not pirate it. That point is moot because people are still using the software without paying for it. This the argument that pirates often use to justify their actions. They also say "Well if the DRM worked then sales would shoot through the roof" Right? Wrong, for exactly the reason you said. Because the pirates probably wouldn't play it if they couldn't get it for free.

      You can just throw in the towel and say "OK we'll let the pirates have their free games... but we saved money because we didn't use DRM!" However, like any other business, this people's livelihood at stake here. You might as well say to a book store owner that you're OK with people walking in, borrowing a book, creating an exact replica of it and then returning it.

  2. Cracked by Ninnle! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    WTF? This is old news. It was cracked by NinnleCrack, running under Ninnle Linux, some time ago.

    1. Re:Cracked by Ninnle! by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      WTF? This is old news. It was cracked by NinnleCrack, running under Ninnle Linux, some time ago.

      Uh, yeah, if you're gonna troll on Slashdot, try to do a little better than "a new game was on Linux long before Windows..."

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    2. Re:Cracked by Ninnle! by Khyber · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Uh, yea, if you're going to talk smack, make sure you know what you're talking about.

      A linux server is EXACTLY how I bypassed the DRM initially, and I DID get past the memory block most couldn't get to - learn to check your in-process opcodes, fools.

      I had ACII running the week before official release. I beat it the day of official release.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    3. Re:Cracked by Ninnle! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...and you were playing it in Windows.

    4. Re:Cracked by Ninnle! by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      Uh, yea, if you're going to talk smack, make sure you know what you're talking about.

      Oh yeah.. while we're on that topic, you should read my post a little more carefully. ;)

      I had ACII running the week before official release. I beat it the day of official release.

      Dare i ask which OS you were actually running the game on? Heh.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    5. Re:Cracked by Ninnle! by Khyber · · Score: 1

      ReactOS, actually. Not Windows. That's how I managed to get past the section everyone got stuck at.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    6. Re:Cracked by Ninnle! by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      Since when was ReactOS capable enough to run major commercial games?

  3. Ubisoft's new DRM announced by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now whenever you buy a copy of one of their games, you will have to schedule a time for an Ubisoft employee to come over and unlock your copy. The employee will stand guard as you play, and as soon as your scheduled time is done, the employee will lock the copy again and leave. If you wish to play at an unscheduled time, that is unfortunate. Also, copies will only include one hour of prepaid Ubisoft employee time. Anything beyond that will cost you $100/hr, including transportation time and costs.

    1. Re:Ubisoft's new DRM announced by BLKMGK · · Score: 1

      Oh, so it's sort of like CableCard used to be?

      --
      Build it, Drive it, Improve it! Hybridz.org
  4. Successful DRM by celibate+for+life · · Score: 1

    Considering no DRM system will withstand tampering forever, and it's ultimately about delaying the inevitable crack, I guess Ubisoft was successful.

    Except they have alienated legitimate customers along with the pirates, well, nevermind...

    1. Re:Successful DRM by MemoryDragon · · Score: 1

      My personal guess is they lost a load more legit customers over this especially once who bought the game and were pissed afterwards by the entire protection, than what they could gain by this DRM on new sales by not being copyable.
      Given their charts numbers my personal guess is the sales were mediocre at best and I would not be surprised if they keep the DRM up that the next load of games will become a sales fiasco. The now once burned customers (Who initially did not have a clue) will not return, but will simply stay away.

  5. depends on the meaning of "for real" by illaqueate · · Score: 5, Informative

    Skidrow put their own copy protection on the crack because they simply placed the values from the emulator into a dll. It's nice and convenient to have a dll return the values instead of a server however if they had actually cracked then they would have also cracked the other games for which the emulator doesn't currently exist.

    So yes, Assassin's Creed 2 is playable but their copy protection is only broken in the sense that AC2 designers decided to make the server-client for this game return static responses that can be collected and eventually make the game playable for pirates.

    1. Re:depends on the meaning of "for real" by Jer · · Score: 1

      So yes, Assassin's Creed 2 is playable but their copy protection is only broken in the sense that AC2 designers decided to make the server-client for this game return static responses that can be collected and eventually make the game playable for pirates.

      Wait - what? The server returns the same responses for everyone? This was their "unbreakable" DRM? Was it at least encrypted or something?

    2. Re:depends on the meaning of "for real" by moonbender · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Even unencrypted it took weeks to emulate/"crack" the protection. So this was rather successful by the standards of DRM. They can step up this kind of protection in future titles. Allegedly the new Settlers game uses a variant of the same DRM which has a more complex integration with the server. Either way, the legit customer is stuck with a game that will only run when the server is up and reachable. If you see anybody playing AC2 on a plane or even on a train, they're almost certainly playing a pirated version, because legit customers simply can't run the game.

      --
      Switch back to Slashdot's D1 system.
    3. Re:depends on the meaning of "for real" by illaqueate · · Score: 5, Informative

      The protection for AC2 is tacked on. Settlers 7 received somewhat better protection and there is no working server emulator for it yet. In the future it will be more dynamic and most likely include server side game logic. The significance of it not being truly cracked even with a basic protection as in AC2 is this: every time Ubisoft releases a new game then the pirates must play through the entire game collecting the values which can take a few weeks to get 100% unless the process can somehow be automated. This is over and above any changes to the protocol used to communicate between the client and server between games which the cracker must code for to capture those values.

    4. Re:depends on the meaning of "for real" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The SIKDROW crack works for parts of the game that the server emulator still lacks. So...no.

    5. Re:depends on the meaning of "for real" by Hurricane78 · · Score: 0, Troll

      Your definitions of “legit” and “pirate” are way off.
      This has nothing to do with either legitimacy or pirates.

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    6. Re:depends on the meaning of "for real" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No one at Ubisoft ever claimed it was unbreakable, AFAIK. It's only through repeated posts like yours that this became common perception. No doubt it was "just another title" using "just another slightly varied DRM approach" for the AC2 programmers.

    7. Re:depends on the meaning of "for real" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      not necessarily so, they could have bought the original game and used the crack to play it offline ( i think), and that doesn't sound to me like 'pirated version'.

    8. Re:depends on the meaning of "for real" by illaqueate · · Score: 1

      The values from Skidrow are already dumped and it's proven they used the data from that forum

    9. Re:depends on the meaning of "for real" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Source?

    10. Re:depends on the meaning of "for real" by Derosian · · Score: 2, Informative

      I really would only call this a success in name. No way to pirate the game should mean they would have a tenfold increase in sales, but they didn't see this. Sales were rather normal for a game of this magnitude, I wonder if this means people who pirate games are unlikely to buy your game anyway.

    11. Re:depends on the meaning of "for real" by celibate+for+life · · Score: 1

      According to Ubisoft's replies on their official forums whenever something like this was suggested, this is a breach of their EULA.

    12. Re:depends on the meaning of "for real" by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      Even unencrypted it took weeks to emulate/"crack" the protection. So this was rather successful by the standards of DRM.

      I have to kind of grudgingly agree with you there.
      Look at the latest version of BD+ - used for the first time on the Avatar BLU-RAY.
      Avatar was released on Thursday it was cracked by the end of Friday by at least two different groups (Slysoft and Fengtao aka DVDFab).
      So, by that measure, Ubisoft's DRM was a massive success.
      Meanwhile, Fox just blew another $100K+ for a day's worth of copy prevention.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    13. Re:depends on the meaning of "for real" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    14. Re:depends on the meaning of "for real" by Kamots · · Score: 1

      Doesn't matter if it's a breach of the EULA, as if you're in the US it's illegal under the DMCA.

    15. Re:depends on the meaning of "for real" by em0te · · Score: 1

      If all the game's DRM subs are expecting static values it is rather trivial to parse through the DRM routines piecemeal and pass values until they return relevant data. If their dynamic than an algorithm can be deduced from the successfully passed values. It's already done in some keygens. It just seems people are getting lazy.

    16. Re:depends on the meaning of "for real" by kimvette · · Score: 1

      *sigh*

      Interoperability clause. Basis: interoperability with a PC which does not have an active network connection.
      Legal, even under the draconian DMCA.

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    17. Re:depends on the meaning of "for real" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you see anybody playing AC2 on a plane or even on a train, they're almost certainly playing a pirated version, because legit customers simply can't run the game.

      Actually, there are in flight internet providers (gogo in flight internet, for example) that give users access to the internet via wifi on airplanes. On trains, you'll see various cellular internet options available via dongle in your laptop. Not to defend the asshat DRMers, but internet access is getting to be ubiquitous.

    18. Re:depends on the meaning of "for real" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      So the pirates are winning. Look at it this way. The pirates have pushed DRM to be so draconian that even the ardent pro corporatist shill is getting stung. The only unbroken DRM out there requires you to have a 24/7 internet connection. Good luck playing your favorite single player game while you wait at the DMV, on that flight, during your commute, etc. well except for that pirate guy sitting next to you. Imagine your the guy who paid for these games in that situation. How do you feel now?

    19. Re:depends on the meaning of "for real" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I really wish I had mod points today.

    20. Re:depends on the meaning of "for real" by Zerth · · Score: 1

      The significance of it not being truly cracked even with a basic protection as in AC2 is this: every time Ubisoft releases a new game then the pirates must play through the entire game collecting the values which can take a few weeks to get 100% unless the process can somehow be automated.

      What, like reverse fuzz testing?

    21. Re:depends on the meaning of "for real" by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      Governments since the 1700's would disagree with you.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    22. Re:depends on the meaning of "for real" by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      It's very likely that the insane DRM restrictions (like requiring an internet connection at all times) significantly reduced demand during the pirate-free period.

      In other words, nobody pirated it for a while, but not as many people bought it as would have if there were no DRM but piracy was not an option. Basically Ubisoft's DRM cost them the same number of customers as would have pirated the game, which means their DRM system actually cost them tens of millions of dollars more than just using a serial number system and leaving it be, and it's going to continue costing them significant amounts of money until they can get away with pulling the plug in a few years. That will - seriously - piss off any Ubisoft customers who actually like to have a library of games they can play.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    23. Re:depends on the meaning of "for real" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A shocking discovery! Who would've thought every pirated copy isn't a lost sale?

    24. Re:depends on the meaning of "for real" by Khyber · · Score: 1

      "Doesn't matter if it's a breach of the EULA, as if you're in the US it's illegal under the DMCA."

      Someone didn't read the DMCA, I see.

      Learn about interoperability.

      http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap12.html

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    25. Re:depends on the meaning of "for real" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The gaming community at large will probably get involved.

      a background program will be developed to automatically record the checks/responses and upload them to a database server. once the databse has been filled its a simple matter to emulate the auth server.

      it will be sold to the masses as "just in case ubisoft fails" and the pirates will take advantage of the data to make a crack.

      sure, it can get alot more complicated with public/private keys and encryption, but given enough time they can break it.

    26. Re:depends on the meaning of "for real" by Kamots · · Score: 1

      If you're referring to the Reverse Engineering section, I'd suggest you read it a bit closer. The applicability of that section to the situation described is pretty far fetched.

    27. Re:depends on the meaning of "for real" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most newer copy protections will last a while until the groups figure it out. Then the floodgates open and everything protected by that method is immediately cracked. This happened with SecuROM 7, StarForce, and recently with SolidShield.

      Then the protectionists have to go back to the drawing board and come up with something completely new and that takes time and money. Lather, rinse, repeat.

      However, they have to be very careful to ensure the protection doesn't piss off legit users, like it did with StarForce and the new UbiProt, as the backlash may outweigh the extra sales from pirates who couldn't copy it, resulting in an overall drop in revenue compared to a game with no protection at all.

    28. Re:depends on the meaning of "for real" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And this is why geeks get crucified in court: trying to make sense of the law.

      IANAL, but from the bnetd (appealed) case opinion:

      TOU/EULA - forfeiting right to Reverse Engineer

      Unlike in Vault, the state law at issue here neither conflicts with the interoperability exception under 17 U.S.C. 1201(f) nor restricts rights given under federal law. Appellants contractually accepted restrictions on their ability to reverse engineer by their agreement to the terms of the TOU and EULA. "[P]rivate parties are free to contractually forego the limited ability to reverse engineer a software product under the exemptions of the Copyright Act[,]" Bowers v. Baystate Techs, Inc., 320 F.3d 1317, 1325-26 (Fed.Cir. 2003), and "a state can permit parties to contract away a fair use defense or to agree not to engage in uses of copyrighted material that are permitted by the copyright law if the contract is freely negotiated." Id. at 1337 (Dyk, J., dissenting). See also Nat'l Car Rental Sys., Inc., 991 F.2d at 434 (holding that the Copyright Act does not preempt a breach of contract action based on prohibited use of software contained in a license agreement). While Bowers and Nat'l Car Rental were express preemption cases rather than conflict preemption, their reasoning applies here with equal force. By signing the TOUs and EULAs, Appellants expressly relinquished their rights to reverse engineer. Summary judgment on this issue was properly granted in favor of Blizzard and Vivendi.

      Reverse Engineering (interoperability) of DRM technology - not applicable

      B. DMCA Claims and Interoperability Exception

      Congress enacted the DMCA in 1998 to implement the World Intellectual Property Organization Copyright Treaty ("WIPO Treaty"). WIPO requires contracting nations to "provide adequate legal protection and effective legal remedies against the circumvention of effective technological measures that are used by authors in connection with the exercise of their rights under this Treaty or the Berne Convention and that restrict acts, in respect of their works, which are not authorized by the authors concerned or permitted by law." WIPO Treaty, Apr. 12, 1997, art. 11, S. Treaty Doc. No. 105-17 (1997), available at 1997 WL 447232.[10] The DMCA contains 640 three provisions targeted at the circumvention of technological protections.

      The first is 1201(a)(1), the anti-circumvention provision. This provision prohibits a person from "circumvent[ing] a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under [Title 17, governing copyright]." The Librarian of Congress is required to promulgate regulations every three years exempting from this subsection individuals who would otherwise be "adversely affected" in "their ability to make noninfringing uses." 17 U.S.C. 1201(a)(1)(B)-(E). Section 1201(a)(1) differs from the second and third provisions in that it targets the use of a circumvention technology, not the trafficking in such a technology.

      The second and third provisions are 1201(a)(2) and 1201(b)(1), the "anti-trafficking provisions." These sections are similar, except that 1201(a)(2) covers those who traffic in technology that can circumvent "a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under" Title 17, whereas 1201(b)(1) covers those who traffic in technology that can circumvent "protection afforded by a technological measure that effectively protects a right of a copyright owner under" Title 17. 17 U.S.C. 1201(a)(2) & (b)(1). (Emphases added.) In other words, although both sections prohibit trafficking in a circumvention technology, the focus of 1201(a)(2) is circumvention of technologies designed to prevent access to a work, and the focus of 1201(b)(1) is circumvention of technologies designed to permit access to a work but prevent copying of the work or some other act that infringes a copyright. See S.Rep. No. 105-190, at 11-12 (1998).

      The district court determined that Appellants's reverse engineering violated 1201(a)(1) as well as 1201(a)(2). We agree.

      It seems the judge disagrees with you.

    29. Re:depends on the meaning of "for real" by StillAnonymous · · Score: 1

      "the pirates must play through the entire game collecting the values which can take a few weeks to get 100% unless the process can somehow be automated"

      And automation is exactly what will happen. Not sure if you were around the pirate scene in the 80's, but almost every game that was cracked also came with a trainer. The trainer was an added bonus that came about from the crackers needing to verify that all levels of the game worked. Quickest way was to cheat and zip through the game quickly without being killed.

      This is problematic for RPGs though where it's difficult to verify all possible outcomes. In that case, you need to search the game code for all references to the protection calls, follow that call, and save off the response. Can be difficult if the call relies on values previously set in the game that you wouldn't know unless you were actually playing.

      The arms war continues...

    30. Re:depends on the meaning of "for real" by StillAnonymous · · Score: 1

      How is it proven? Were there a few wrong codes in the emulator values that made their way into the SkidRow crack? If not, there's no proof. The codes are the same for everyone, so it's possible SkidRow grabbed them all from Ubi's servers just like the emu crew did.

    31. Re:depends on the meaning of "for real" by Khyber · · Score: 1

      *sighs*

      I post the direct link and even post the key phrase and you can't even find it?

      "For purposes of this subsection, the term “interoperability” means the ability of computer programs to exchange information, and of such programs mutually to use the information which has been exchanged."

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    32. Re:depends on the meaning of "for real" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, the original crack had the same number of values in the same order as one of the releases of the database. The second crack had the same number of values of a later release in the same order. Assassin's Creed 2 has a nonlinear mission order.

    33. Re:depends on the meaning of "for real" by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      I’m sorry? Troll? Are we now pro-MAFIAA here on /.? When did that happen?

      Legit does not equal legal. You know that. And you also know that laws and actual physical reality couldn’t be further from each other for information-related cases.

      Also, a pirate was, is, and always will be someone stealing shit on the high seas and murdering people. You know perfectly well, that the only reason for that unword to be deliberately used in this wrong context, is social engineering, to get us in the same fucked-up mindset. So essentially, every single time you follow their mindset, you support them, you make them stronger, you rape freedom, and you are hurting you, me, artists, and everyone around you... except for a tiny group of criminals who snort cocaine and fuck hookers the one half of the day, while ripping artists and us off the other half. (I know this behavior to be normal for a fact, from personal experience. “No drugs” is a rare exception.)

      I don’t care if you feel personally attacked in your pride or some similar primitive shit. Because there are more important things at stake here.... if you have hard of ACTA...!
      I don’t care if you don’t like hearing it. Cause it’s a fact anyway. No matter how much you repress and ignore it.

      I repeat it, until you eat it: This has nothing to do with either legitimacy (not legality) or pirates (ARRR!)!

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    34. Re:depends on the meaning of "for real" by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      Governments are WRONG on that one. News at 11. You know that as well as I do.
      The crime is ACTA. The crime is 3.5% off an album for the artist, and still having to pay the studio from it. The crime is monopoly instead of a working market. The crime is not file sharing. Or otherwise actually living in fucking REALITY!

      Or have you lost your last bit of independent thinking?

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    35. Re:depends on the meaning of "for real" by PhilHibbs · · Score: 1

      I really would only call this a success in name. No way to pirate the game should mean they would have a tenfold increase in sales, but they didn't see this. Sales were rather normal for a game of this magnitude, I wonder if this means people who pirate games are unlikely to buy your game anyway.

      Huh? Tenfold? In the aftermath of an economic crash, and with other big releases like MW2 to compete with? Pass the pipe.

    36. Re:depends on the meaning of "for real" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So now cracking will be even more of a game to the crackers than it was before, requiring cooperation between game testers, coders and amateur crypto analysts ? I'm sure that will put them off... ;-)

    37. Re:depends on the meaning of "for real" by Spatial · · Score: 1

      That's what they're always prattling on about. Piracy is killing PC sales, blah blah blah. Sometimes people throw out the ridiculous figure of a 90% piracy rate.

      This situation gives us an opportunity to test such claims. Publishers often say that the initial few weeks net the biggest proportion of sales. The DRM wasn't cracked during that time.

      If piracy is such a big problem on the PC, sales should be much higher for this game. If a pirated copy equates with a lost sale (to any significant degree), sales should be much higher for this game.

      If they aren't then those assertions are wrong.

    38. Re:depends on the meaning of "for real" by PhilHibbs · · Score: 1

      Piracy is still an option that people have in their minds, though, there may be people who are waiting to see how the protection works out. If a trend is established that from now on, with this new type of DRM, it takes several weeks to crack most new games, then some of the people who up until now have been routinely pirating games within a few days might switch over to buying them, especially if the publishers can learn from this and push it up to months instead of weeks. Just trying to see this from the publisher's POV.

      Putting my optimist hat back on, maybe if the publishers do create foolproof DRM, and their sales figures do not change much, they will realise that they are wasting their time and get rid of it!

    39. Re:depends on the meaning of "for real" by Simetrical · · Score: 1

      The protection for AC2 is tacked on. Settlers 7 received somewhat better protection and there is no working server emulator for it yet. In the future it will be more dynamic and most likely include server side game logic. The significance of it not being truly cracked even with a basic protection as in AC2 is this: every time Ubisoft releases a new game then the pirates must play through the entire game collecting the values which can take a few weeks to get 100% unless the process can somehow be automated. This is over and above any changes to the protocol used to communicate between the client and server between games which the cracker must code for to capture those values.

      I don't get it. Why can't they patch out the checks for the server's values from the binary? Is it something devious like keeping a few dozen critical bytes for each map on the server, like a key that decrypts the assets? You'd think the attackers could synthesize key requests once they got the hang of it, if so, so they wouldn't actually have to play the game to get all the keys.

      --
      MediaWiki developer, Total War Center sysadmin
    40. Re:depends on the meaning of "for real" by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      Perhaps, but at the same time it means people who were *likely* to buy the game will still buy it regardless of onerous DRM. That's bad news for those of us who abstained on principle.

  6. I wish people would act more ethically by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The only ethical response to ubisoft is not to buy their product, not to use their product, not to infringe upon their product and then tell them you are doing it and tell your friends.

    I'm irritated at the pro-piracy attitude, it hurts open source as well. Without respect for at least copyright-driven IP you can't have real opensource that allows the creator to specify how it is propagated (GPL). All you would have would be the BSD, and we saw what Apple did with that eh?

    1. Re:I wish people would act more ethically by celibate+for+life · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Except Ubisoft doesn't know whether you illegally download their game or not, so pirating it and not playing it at all have the same effect, that is: Ubisoft will assume piracy.

    2. Re:I wish people would act more ethically by sowth · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So, why the fuck would you want to play their games if they are total assholes? It is not as if they are the only people who have ever made any games.

    3. Re:I wish people would act more ethically by blackraven14250 · · Score: 2, Informative

      However, they are the only people who have ever made Assassin's Creed 2.

    4. Re:I wish people would act more ethically by celibate+for+life · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The answer is obvious: if you want to play Assassin's Creed 2, playing Borderlands (or any other game) won't help any, because it's not Assassin's Creed 2.

    5. Re:I wish people would act more ethically by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is exactly the point. Do not feed them, you teach them nothing if you still buy their product. Refuse to buy their product, tell them why and tell everyone else.

      Proprietary software is not necessarily immoral or unethical, but treating your own customers like common criminals is arguably unethical (this goes for Apple too).

    6. Re:I wish people would act more ethically by krelian · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That is why the parent was talking about ethics. Unfortunately, these days for most people protesting is fine as long as you don't have to actually sacrifice anything.

    7. Re:I wish people would act more ethically by Interoperable · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Do you really think that they don't take a peek at how well seeded the torrents of their games are? They have a pretty good idea when a game is being pirated and when it just sucks. The pro-piracy attitude is nothing more than being too cheap to buy the game and not having any respect for the developers. If you like the game, then you associate some value to it and you should buy it. Otherwise, don't play it.

      --
      So if this is the future...where's my jet pack?
    8. Re:I wish people would act more ethically by celibate+for+life · · Score: 1

      You make the incorrect assumption that torrents are the only form of distribution of "warez". All they can tell from looking at torrent statistics is "yes, some people are downloading our game illegally", which is pretty obvious to begin with, it's a popular game we're talking about. There will be a lot of downloads, even if the crack isn't fully functional, even if it's functional but too complicated; people will download then delete it without playing it.

      The point is: if you really want to play that game without paying for it and you really want it to remain secret, there are plenty of ways to obtain it anonymously, and your actions won't be sending Ubisoft any messages, they will just make their own conclusions.

    9. Re:I wish people would act more ethically by log0n · · Score: 4, Funny

      I hear Duke Nukem Forever is pretty close tho.

    10. Re:I wish people would act more ethically by arekusu_ou · · Score: 1

      It's like the easy girl in town. Sure everyone's had a go at her and you wouldn't want to introduce her to your friends, but she's good for a one nighter or two

    11. Re:I wish people would act more ethically by Imrik · · Score: 1

      They can't tell how many people are pirating their game, but they can tell how many are downloading it relative to how many are downloading other games they've made.

    12. Re:I wish people would act more ethically by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So... what, this boils down to "I really really want this and I want it NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW so I'm justified in doing whatever I want to get it"? Like a little spoiled brat, all grown up?

      No, it doesn't. Straw man arguments are lies.

    13. Re:I wish people would act more ethically by icebraining · · Score: 3, Funny

      I wish I had money to buy a decent PC, so I could say I've skipped AC2 because of DRM...

    14. Re:I wish people would act more ethically by Spad · · Score: 1

      I haven't bought the game and I don't have any respect for the *publishers* - and no, I haven't pirated it either.

    15. Re:I wish people would act more ethically by carp3_noct3m · · Score: 0, Troll

      So buying a game and wanting to play it on a laptop without internet makes someone a "spoiled brat"? The point is that DRM is not meeting the customer needs and wants. And because of that I refuse to pay to get fucked in the ass, so yes, I'm going to fucking pirate a game, a game that deserves to get played, but that the company couldn't get their head out of their ass enough to make it worth paying for. Developers need to start standing up for their rights more, and not letting some penny pusher tell them "if we include DRM sales will increase X-fold!" It sucks, because the game itself is pretty damn awesome, but nobody wants to pay for draconian DRM. And for the people who did buy it, they deserve to be able to play the game when and where they please.

      --
      "It's ok, I'm completely secure as long as my iron is off"
    16. Re:I wish people would act more ethically by CrashPoint · · Score: 1

      The only ethical response to ubisoft is not to buy their product, not to use their product, not to infringe upon their product and then tell them you are doing it and tell your friends.

      Not true. There are at least two more ethical responses:

      1. If available, buy the title on a platform where the objectionable DRM isn't used. I bought AC2 for the 360 largely for this reason (Yes, I know 360 games have some DRM, but not of the intentionally-screw-the-legit-customer variety).
      2. Buy the title, "pirate" it anyway, and play the pirated version in order to enjoy the product you paid for without the DRM.

      In either case, telling the publisher what you did and why is a good idea, though not ethically necessary.

      Done in large enough numbers, both can make them realize that DRM is a drain on profits (the $X per copy sold that was spent on DRM would otherwise have been profit). Additionally, the second option acts as further evidence that "one crack downloaded =/= one sale lost".

    17. Re:I wish people would act more ethically by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      which is one of the 800 odd titles released in the last year and nowhere as good as starcraft II or mass efffect 2.
      which means squat. if they go out of business no one is going to mourn for them.

    18. Re:I wish people would act more ethically by causality · · Score: 1

      Except Ubisoft doesn't know whether you illegally download their game or not, so pirating it and not playing it at all have the same effect, that is: Ubisoft will assume piracy.

      Did you miss the part where he said "do not use this game and tell them why?" Reading comprehension is a very useful skill.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    19. Re:I wish people would act more ethically by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Er, sorry. Modern games have lots of available ways to track pirated users. Cracks only remove the online authentication: they do what is 'necessary' for the game to work, and nothing else - anonymity is not a concern of crack groups.

      All cracked AC2 copies are still going to retain some form of unique serial key code in memory. It may even be all 0s. Any sort of online access that can attach session data, can track the number of unique and identical/invalid (i.e., cracked) copies of the game. Such as:

      • updates
      • adverts
      • high scores
      • DLC
      • master server (for multiplayer games)

      iPhone developers have used the high-score method before to track the number of pirated copies.

      Ubisoft could block access to these services for copied versions of the game (some games do require account auth. for MP) but they likely realize it would be quickly bypassed, and besides, it allows for data gathering.

      It's not a novel concept (Tribes2 had an uncompromised login server back in 2001) and it would be arrogant to assume this type of tracking has not been tried for PCs in the last 5+ years.

      But anyway... what's the point in whether Ubisoft knows how many pirated copies exist? I feel like this thread was derailed.

    20. Re:I wish people would act more ethically by celibate+for+life · · Score: 1

      Reading comprehension is a very useful skill.

      So is common sense.
      Do you actually think that half a dozen angry letters/e-mails will make any difference? That is, if they read them in the first place.
      In the real world, most people will either pay and put up with the DRM, pirate it, or not play and don't care at all. The company is trying to make a profit and the customers are trying to have fun. That's all there is to it.

    21. Re:I wish people would act more ethically by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think it's more of "I really want it, but you're a total dick, so I'll just steal it."

      It's certainly not right, but it's also not un-justifiable. Given that a pirateer generally has a better gaming experience than a legitimate gamer should be illuminating.

      Really, the more obtrusive these DRM schemes get the bigger the market will be for pirated copies. That's the crux of their problem.

      You know a much more effective way to limit piracy? Make it more convenient to buy it than to pirate it. Valve has shown how effective this can be with Steam - they don't get nearly as much piracy on their games because it's just a lot easier to use Steam than it is to deal with cracking scheme X. Add to that the abundance of viruses disguised as game cracks, and a service like Steam becomes very attractive. Plus, with Steam Valve can react to changes in the market instantly, instead of having to wait. They can even do live testing en-mass, reducing the cost of market research. An example of that was when Valve reduced their prices on Steam and saw their revenues shoot up.

      Valve pretty much has it figured out, I don't understand why nobody else seems to be catching on.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    22. Re:I wish people would act more ethically by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what? Grow a spine and a conscience.

    23. Re:I wish people would act more ethically by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, I know 360 games have some DRM, but not of the intentionally-screw-the-legit-customer variety.

      In fairness (not to say it is right), the screw-the-customer DRM is the only sort that works (as of now) on the PC. All other forms have been tried and failed for the last 15+ years. It won't work forever - cracks will only get more complex, as in this instance. But don't think the 360 wouldn't implement the same annoying DRM schemes if its hardware were completely compromised, leaving it as weak as the PC is.

    24. Re:I wish people would act more ethically by Khyber · · Score: 1

      'They can't tell how many people are pirating their game, but they can tell how many are downloading it relative to how many are downloading other games they've made.'

      Really? They can track my encrypted non-torrent FTP transfers from a private server set up between me and only one other person on a secured line that requires two passwords to access?

      I think you're bullshitting.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    25. Re:I wish people would act more ethically by WitnessForTheOffense · · Score: 1

      Some people associate the value of pirated games with the ability to obtain and play them for free. If you have to pay for it, it is no longer of value.

    26. Re:I wish people would act more ethically by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      The thing is, a lot of us don't care that much about Open Source. Sure, there's a lot of fondness for the little guy, but personally I find it hard to get my knickers in a twist when someone violates the GPL. The source code that they based their changes on is still available. If the violators didn't use GPLed code in the first place we'd not be in a better position.

    27. Re:I wish people would act more ethically by causality · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Reading comprehension is a very useful skill. So is common sense. Do you actually think that half a dozen angry letters/e-mails will make any difference? That is, if they read them in the first place. In the real world, most people will either pay and put up with the DRM, pirate it, or not play and don't care at all. The company is trying to make a profit and the customers are trying to have fun. That's all there is to it.

      You said "except Ubisoft doesn't know whether you illegally download their game or not, so pirating it and not playing it all have the same effect, that is: Ubisoft will assume piracy." You mentioned that as though it were a valid objection that the parent post had not already addressed. He did in fact address this before you said anything about it. You did not critique the way he addressed this objection. No, instead you acted like he never even thought of it.

      You can bring up another, separate issue like the effectiveness of refusing to play this game and making sure Ubisoft understands why. If you would like to admit that you have failed to read and understand the initial post, I would at that point be happy to discuss this separate issue with you.

      Meanwhile bringing up this separate issue in an effort to save face isn't fooling anyone. All that does is demonstrate that you cannot admit you made a mistake and are therefore not being terribly honest. That means I do not anticipate having a productive conversation with you about the gaming industry, as it's difficult to do that with someone who wants to convince me that I didn't just see what I plainly just saw.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    28. Re:I wish people would act more ethically by laparel · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So... You don't like Ubisoft's DRM but since you really really like AC2, you wait for a crack then still buy the game?

      Look it's your money and everything so you're free to use it however you want, but to me buying their game whilst hating their DRM is very short sighted and counter-intuitive. If the current DRM-Crack arms war continues to escalate, I fear we'll just end up with a subscription model or something so draconian that pirates might just not be able to crack. You might be able to play Assassin's Creed 2 for now; but come Assassin's Creed 3, we'll all be fucked.

      I'd rather we just all stop buying Ubisoft's product now, even if that means we won't be playing their latest games, and hope that they shape up. Send a clear message to them that they're going to lose their customers and sales unless they remove their fucking DRM.

    29. Re:I wish people would act more ethically by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      Except Ubisoft doesn't know whether you illegally download their game or not, so pirating it and not playing it at all have the same effect, that is: Ubisoft will assume piracy.

      I'm sure that there's no monitoring or tracking of cracked version distribution. After all, it's not like the folks at Ubisoft can get to the same things everyone else on the Internet can. Good thing too, or else they might learn that their game was cracked.

    30. Re:I wish people would act more ethically by ErikZ · · Score: 1

      Pirating software *is* ethical. It's just not your ethics.

      Welcome to humanity.

      --
      Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
    31. Re:I wish people would act more ethically by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Believe me, they know. They also said to tell you to stop touching yourself.

    32. Re:I wish people would act more ethically by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Youre posting to a community that gets into pedantic debates over whether illegally downloading copyrighted content is "stealing" or not, just so they can feel justified in doing so. What did you expect?

    33. Re:I wish people would act more ethically by MaerD · · Score: 1

      I think it's more of "I really want it, but you're a total dick, so I'll just steal it."

      Half right.
      Some will say/do just that, others who are excited about this will go "I really want it, and now that it's cracked, I'll buy it and apply the crack so I don't have to deal with the level of BS your DRM tries to impose"

      --
      I put on my robe and wizard hat..
    34. Re:I wish people would act more ethically by Imrik · · Score: 1

      They don't have to track your particular transfer, they can track general trends. Game 1 had x seeds two weeks after release, game 2 had 3x seeds, significantly more people are downloading game 2.

    35. Re:I wish people would act more ethically by scot4875 · · Score: 1

      You could spend all of your free time playing only 90%-rated games from the past decade and would probably still never run out of new things to play.

      The only difference between the other 90%-rated games and Assassin's Creed 2 is that advertisements told them that they *must* play Assassin's Creed 2.

      --Jeremy

      --
      Jesus was a liberal
  7. Not so fast by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    All Skidrow did was re-package the existing community-developed workaround.

    The community created a values.db which contains the name/value pairs to defeat Ubi's server checks, and a server emulator, Skidrow's DLL embeds this file and replaces the server-checking with a local access.

    Skidrow then takes full credit for the work (in a total douche move) and they also packed their DLL so no-one would detect their deception.

    1. Re:Not so fast by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      from a .nfo

      Assassins Creed 2 ... The truth about the lame scene group Skidrow
      and a message to the scene

      Protection: Ubi DRM
      Date of Release: 25.04.2010
      Type: Read NFO

      First of all we would like to thank all people out there that helped us
      beating ubisofts DRM for Assassins Creed 2.

      Now to the points of Skidrow which someone pasted us after the scene
      nuked their theft of our work.

      1. You are true about how the orbit works BUT you did not even log a
      single value yourself. This is easy proofable to all people that
      would like to take the time and start logging from the very
      beginning. Alot of values, which you recieve while logging we merged
      in our database together into 1 or 2 lines Like 5 values 1 line but
      if you log them yourself, they will never look like the given ones
      from our value.db. Also there are some values which do not exist
      in your released version of AC2. They are russian only!

      2. Of course we are not stupid and tagged our value.db. There are
      several values inside that you can never log because they simple do
      not exist. They are fake and used to tag our work from stealing.
      I will not mention which one but as a hint it will be transformed
      a greeting to ru forums as thanks for all our supporters there
      logging values.

      3. The way you transformed the orbit is not good. If you want to play
      any orbit game like Silent Hunter 5 or Settlers 7 or SPlinter Cell
      you can not play them anymore even though you bought them. The
      Skidrow crack fuxks up all originals you want to play. How stupid
      is this "leading force"

      4. Just for your info: Settlers 7 will be also tagged with values that
      you can never recieve from the orbit. You might understand how the
      orbit works but you will never understand how cracking works because
      you steal almost everything. Let me proof this:

      - securom cracks: These "cracks" you supplied had never ever
      the securom VM applied. They even still
      include the debug codes from the times before
      mastering

      - starforce cracks: Your cracks are lame. They are made of russian

    2. Re:Not so fast by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      this is a fake, dormine never wrote that

    3. Re:Not so fast by Beelzebud · · Score: 1

      I love listening to people from the scene whine and cry about people stealing from them! LOL

      It's like the movie scene. Every once in awhile you'll see a flame inside of an nfo file bitching about someone stealing their source... LOL

      Hypocrisy can be amusing sometimes.

    4. Re:Not so fast by carp3_noct3m · · Score: 1

      From Skidrows latest crackfix: Nukers Information: We noticed our release was nuked a few places for using stolen public available values.vb codes. Let’s point out that, even if our dll has the very same values, then anyone can get these values and the values are still required to emulate the ubiorbit api calls. The data values are transfered via IPC, as we didn’t use any kind of server emulation at all and therefore can’t be compared to the public server emulator out there. It’s sad that there are people out there, who only focus on make you look bad, when you actually have accomplished something of a larger scale. If the scene is based on finding holes in everything, then you can start nuking Command and Conquer 4 Tiberian Twilight for using exact same method as the public server emulation release, SecuROM cracks with emulated vm calls, Steam function emulation and RELOADED’s new Solidshield method. We didn’t mention RELOADED, to make them look bad, but to give people insight in, that alternative routes needs to be found to get around the protections these days. Things are not getting easier these days, as publishers like EA and Ubisoft, have already begun to release games which require you to be online when you play. You can bet more will jump on that gameplay only online wagon. Firms like Capcom, Square Enix Eidos, THQ, SEGA and Activision has already shown interest in doing so. Maybe the same people who bitch that we used the values.vb codes from the public server release, should at least prove their accusations. Keep in mind, the values are required for the game to function properly and the values are always the same, because they never change. What reason will you use, when we pre the next Ubisoft game?

      --
      "It's ok, I'm completely secure as long as my iron is off"
    5. Re:Not so fast by X.25 · · Score: 2, Informative

      The community created a values.db which contains the name/value pairs to defeat Ubi's server checks, and a server emulator, Skidrow's DLL embeds this file and replaces the server-checking with a local access.

      Considering those values are 'static' (which enables crack/emulator to work), what values would you suggest SkidRow to use?

      I have no idea what the story here is, nor do I care, but seemingly server/clients exchange static values, how could their crack use some other values? o.0

    6. Re:Not so fast by socheres · · Score: 1

      i don't see how this nullifies the claim of skid row.
      anyone trying to hack ac2 would have gotten to the values.
      both the russian and skidrow used the values but they had different approaches.

    7. Re:Not so fast by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The community values.db files where tagged with known-bad values in anticipation of this eventuality.

      So, Skidrow:
      - Happened to complete deciphering the values at the same time the community did.
      - Have the same incorrect values as an older version (1908) of the values.db
      - For some reason, have the same known-bad tag values as the community release

      Or:
      - They copied it from the site and claimed it as their own.
      - Packed their DLL to prevent detection (while claiming it's to protect their [trivial] work-around from prying eyes)

      Which is more likely?

    8. Re:Not so fast by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ones that didn't also have unused, fake keypairs that the original group embedded to detect such things?

  8. There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Here is how unbreakable DRM will eventually work:
    When internet connections are high enough bandwidths and low enough latencies, you will only have video transferred to you, all game assets will be entirely stored and run on their hardware, never will anything be stored on YOUR end that you will can manipulate.

    That is, you will play "unbreakable" games remotely.

    1. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by f4k3r · · Score: 2, Interesting

      you might want to google for "OnLive"

    2. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Andorin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      When internet connections are high enough bandwidths and low enough latencies, you will only have video transferred to you, all game assets will be entirely stored and run on their hardware, never will anything be stored on YOUR end that you will can manipulate.

      At which point prices will have to drop significantly because you're no longer selling a game; you're selling a subscription to a game.

      --
      That Anonymous Coward guy is pretty annoying. Can we have the government censor him or something?
    3. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by WrongSizeGlass · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It's already in the works at On Live. IMHO I think the latency related to gaming in this fashion will ruin it for everyone (unless you're playing board games or the like).

    4. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Espectr0 · · Score: 1

      Then the crack will consist of downloading a permanent copy of the game assets and making the client download them locally from a running server, fooling the game to think it is downloading it from the remote servers.

    5. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by asCii88 · · Score: 5, Informative

      You might want to post the link

    6. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by mrsteveman1 · · Score: 1

      Breaking the "DRM" in that case would actually be theft of service.

    7. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      At which point prices will have to drop significantly because you're no longer selling a game; you're selling a subscription to a game.

      Hahahahahahahahahaha

    8. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by asCii88 · · Score: 1

      Then the crack will consist of downloading a permanent copy of the game assets and making the client download them locally from a running server, fooling the game to think it is downloading it from the remote servers.

      You mean cracking the servers and getting the game from them, and also the server platform, and then setting up a server, and then cracking the client so that it connects to the unofficial server.

    9. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Zero_DgZ · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You mean like people already do with World of Warcraft pirate servers?

    10. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by sowth · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You think they will drop their prices? Obviously, you don't know anything about the greed of the media companies.

    11. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by TavisJohn · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And that sort of "Streaming" of a game will totally eliminate the re-playability of the game.

      I have games that are 5, 10, 15, 20+ years old that I STILL go back and play. Some of the companies that made the games I have do not even exist anymore! No game company is going to pay to keep servers running so customers can continue to play the game that long after it was released.

      I will NEVER EVER buy a game that is not totally contained on the media I am purchasing. I like to go back and re-play games for DECADES to come.

    12. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      At which point prices will have to drop significantly because you're no longer selling a game; you're selling a subscription to a game.

      Why the hell is this modded "insightful"? It's either "troll" or at best "funny".

      They'll just sell a lifetime* subscription for the regular price.

      * Really just as long as we feel like running the servers. No longer than the date of the release of the successor or 2 years from release.

    13. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Nasarius · · Score: 1

      That's not really a crack, though. It's comparable to writing your own clone of a game (half of it, at least), which requires several orders of magnitude more work.

      --
      LOAD "SIG",8,1
    14. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by rxan · · Score: 1

      The name you're looking for is Software as a Service.

      Bandwidth is one issue but the main concern is latency or "lag". In the case of games even a tiny bit of latency can cause it to be unplayable. Once you get round trip time for your commands to be sent and the video returned, you've got a lot of unhappy customers and the expense of feeding all that high resolution video.

      It doesn't have to be so extreme though. You can always implement pieces of the game not related to rendering on the server. Which is essentially why Ubisoft has done here.

    15. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by redcaboodle · · Score: 3, Informative

      WoW has the assets stored on the client side. The server just controls the mobs and manages the communication between clients.

      For a free WoW server they mostly had to work out the protocols No hacking or cracking of servers was involved.

      --
      -- Put crudely, the world is an extremely large problem instance. (Russel/Norvig Artificial Intelligence)
    16. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Writing a server emulator is vastly different from re-implementing an entire game including its assets. A server is actually something OSS/hobbyist teams are good at. A full game? Nope, sorry, hasn't been done (Nexuiz is nothing like modern games; and even it was based on the pre-existing and freely-available Quake engine).

      Is there any example at all of someone successfully hacking into and stealing an (respectable) MMO server and its contents?

    17. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Hurricane78 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      He doesn’t have to. He only has to know something about basic physics of a market.
      No price drop -> no buy -> bankrupt
      price drop -> buy -> PROFIT

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    18. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by celibate+for+life · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Nothing stops them from resurrecting old titles as a "Vintage Special" and offering you the privilege of playing them for a fee.

    19. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by BountyX · · Score: 1

      I had the same idea as OnLive a couple of years ago. My theory was based on the (reverse) evaluation of game code and how most games resided in small execution loops during gameplay. The biggest barrier to implementing my idea at the time was bandwidth and upgrade costs. The monthly subscription cost would have been too prohibitive and bandwidth requirements were unreasonable. I have no idea how these OnLive guys are going to handle frequent hardware updates since high-end games continue to push hardware. Maybe they are using NVidia's new server platform?

      Also, I wouldn't call this an unbreakable DRM -- it's the same as renting a game. Issues with DRM come into play when you own the game, especially as it pertains to multiple machines.

      --
      Trying to install linux on my microwave, but keep getting a kernel panic...
    20. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Reality+Master+101 · · Score: 1

      And this is why we need mandatory economics education for every student.

      Price is not based on "greed", price is based on supply and demand. Companies charge what you are willing to pay, which is influenced by the quality of the product and the price of the alternatives.

      That's why electronic books are not significantly cheaper than paper books. The price of the paper and distribution is only a baseline lowest cost, it has nothing to do with what someone is willing to pay.

      --
      Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
    21. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by anarchyboy · · Score: 1

      A version of the Legend of Mir server was leaked/stolen. It was the complete server program (I'm not sure if the source code was stolen too) and that allowed completely private servers to work with the existing client. These servers could then change the stats on items, change what mobs spawned where and create new mobs. I'm not sure how difficult it would have been or if it was possible to create new maps and graphics etc without other tools.

    22. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by celibate+for+life · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Most MMO private servers simply involve official server software leaking by an employee.

    23. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      And yet, they are still taken down using the DMCA....

    24. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by binarylarry · · Score: 1

      Because it's not appropriate to post links to pump and dump scams on Slashdot?

      --
      Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
    25. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by rawler · · Score: 1

      That may take a while, at least for reaction-heavy games.

      Ignoring latencies in active repeaters (routers, switches...) just the speed of light in fiber has a measurable roundtrip (about 12ms from Stockholm to Paris). Then add audio-video-encoding, which realistically needs to buffer at least a few frames to get decent compression (x264 for live-broadcast is usually varying from 500-1000ms), so that adds another 20-30ms. Then you'd either need strong FEC, or very fast re-transmission to not occasionally suffer heavy distortions in the picture (oops, there was a grenade), which either adds extra bandwidth and a little extra delay, or more delay with less bandwidth (could possibly be migigated with a failure-resilient wavelet codec). In the end, somewhere around 50ms latency is probably unavoidable, at which point all reaction-heavy games is a nono for many gamers. (Equal to ~20FPS)

      To compete with graphical quality of a local game, you'd either need closer 100mbit/user to get even decent reaction-times using current and coming codecs, or a lot more for great reaction-times. That would of course be feasible for smaller edge-segments of the network, such as perhaps a gaming-server in the basement of every apartment-building, but that quickly becomes a logistics and service-nightmare.

      Other than that, reaction-sensitive games will probably have to wait for quantum-entanglement to become mainstream.

      On non-reaction-critical games however, this will probably happen a lot sooner, one might argue that it has already with Facebook-games and such. I expect HTML5 canvas will do wonders for that market.

    26. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Dekker3D · · Score: 0, Troll

      problem is: this is not like a luxury good that people will just stop buying. plenty of people are addicted to gaming, and many others simply don't care enough about the crap ubisoft's pulling to stop buying.

      games are more akin to food or drinks (can't stop buying, because you can't do without) than tv sets or cars (demand will drop completely if bad stuff happens)

    27. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      and this is why a high school level economics education is not sufficient to properly understand market forces.

    28. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Bragador · · Score: 1

      What would stop people from accessing the games from within or without and then sharing it with the world? Hackers could break in and disgruntled employees could leak games. So much for your "unbreakable" idea...

    29. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      It doesn't have to be so extreme though. You can always implement pieces of the game not related to rendering on the server. Which is essentially why Ubisoft has done here.
      The question then becomes how difficult is it to reimplement those parts...

      And the answer so far seems to be harder than cracking traditional drm but within the pirates capabilities to do eventually.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    30. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Sancho · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      and this is why a high school level economics education is not sufficient to properly understand market forces.

      I wish I had mod points. I was thinking the exact same thing.

    31. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by arth1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You think they will drop their prices? Obviously, you don't know anything about the greed of the media companies.

      And why do you think that media companies will always be in control?

      Sooner or later, someone will come up with a viable economic model that isn't based on scarcity; knowledge, information and data is inherently both copyable and modifiable, and any scarcity is artificially imposed.
      The traditional model fails because it relies on the price of copying being higher than the price of buying.
      The ad model fails because it relies on the data not being modifiable.

      Games, books, or anything else that is basically data, need a different economic model altogether. One where you can copy and play as much as you like, and where a successful originator can't rest on his laurels, but will be forced to continue to create to get income rolling in.
      Perhaps an art tax, where each tax payer gets to tell who gets his art tax at the end of the year. Or perhaps something else. One thing is certain: The current system is broken, because it bases itself on limiting the supply.

    32. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by kimvette · · Score: 2, Insightful

      ISP bandwidth caps and the lack of network neutrality will prevent that from being successful.

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    33. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

      The problem is that this will make gaming much more expensive. We're looking at a low-latency (10 ms or below), high-bandwidth (20 MB/s guaranteed minimum) line per user in order to be able to play fast-paced games like FPSes at 1080p. Given how things are today that would mean an SLA with your ISP. The ISPs aren't going to just bump the speed of their entire network because the content industry says so.

      Of course we could also see people playing at lower resolutions and/or the death of the FPS genre. Both are unlikely.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    34. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Xorlev · · Score: 0

      Wow does not have assets stored on the client side. The server manages inventory. You can login from any machine.

    35. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Jesus_666 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I have no idea how these OnLive guys are going to handle frequent hardware updates since high-end games continue to push hardware.

      Not really. Most games are essentially using DirectX 9 with additions because that's what the current generation of consoles supports. When the next round of consoles comes out they'll support DirectX 12 and you'll see nothing but DX12 games for the next five years. The boundary-pushing games are a thing of the past simply because that only works if you only release for the PC. Everyone else is tethered to what you can do with the chips found in consoles.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    36. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by allo · · Score: 1

      yes,. and the machine downloads all the graphics, etc. so the assets can be cached locally then.

    37. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by ArundelCastle · · Score: 1

      At which point prices will have to drop significantly because you're no longer selling a game; you're selling a subscription to a game.

      Aha. Think a PC game can't cost you $50 *and* $15 a month? Sounds like you don't play Warcraft. (Never mind the exclusive DLC items that cost up to $25(!!!) each.)
      Which is why the publishers are so happy to be supporting third party infrastructures like OnLive and Gaikai. We pay them for the subscription to stream games to our screens, so the publishers don't catch any flak for double dipping. We still pay the publishers whatever premium they wish to set for playing their AAA title at launch, vs. six months later, vs. pay-per-play. Full profits, full lockdown, and no physical product to be manufactured or stocked. They are hoping to hell that OnLive works out.

    38. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by v1 · · Score: 1

      That's a little bit like how MMORPGs work now, though more by necessity than by design.

      It's still very possible to design a game where some key components sit server-side and require an internet connection to run. Things that don't require anywhere near the bandwidth of video. I'm surprised we haven't ran into any of that yet.

      For example, have the mob's AI done remotely. It would require little more bandwidth than is required now for any online multiplayer FPS game, and if you did get it to work without a network connection, the mobs would just sit there and that would be no fun.

      It would also give the game developers the option to "mix things up" from time to time - a boss that you had an easy strategy to beat suddenly "won't fall for that hide-behind-the-pillar trick anymore". More value for your money that way, greatly increases a game's replayability.

      --
      I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    39. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Indeed, "I'll believe it when I see it" is not a bad position to take with OnLive.

      Seriously though, it's going to take a very long time before an online system can replace a local system - think about it, current bus technologies between hardware and TV/Monitor run in the multi-gigabit range.

      Now that's uncompressed, Cable TV has shown that you can crank those numbers down quite a bit, but you're still talking about a lot of people completely saturating 200-300mbit connections to match the quality of video you get on your local hardware. The connection would have to be very very reliable as well - just a few hiccups in latency or speed can cause extreme annoyance for the gamer. So in reality you're looking at probably a 500mbit connection with a guarantee of no less than 300mbit or so.

      It would take one hell of an infrastructure improvement to handle that.

      It's also a moving target, because video advances continue (though slower than some would like), and by the time we get 500mbit connections in enough homes to make this viable (you'll always be cutting off a big chunk of the market with this setup), the target could very well need to be 1gbit to match local hardware.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    40. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by debatem1 · · Score: 3, Informative

      And this is why we need mandatory economics education for every student.

      Price is not based on "greed", price is based on supply and demand.

      You may wish to avail yourself of that economics course- market forces have no control over initial prices, only what the price will trend towards. Companies could base their initial price on anything at all- greed being a significant factor.

      Companies charge what you are willing to pay, which is influenced by the quality of the product and the price of the alternatives.

      That's why electronic books are not significantly cheaper than paper books. The price of the paper and distribution is only a baseline lowest cost, it has nothing to do with what someone is willing to pay.

      And that would be relevant if they had equivalent sales. As things stand, it actually argues against your point: ebook sales in the US last year come to about $13 million dollars out of a (roughly) $23 billion dollar a year industry, according to the AAP. If the quality of the product and the price of the alternatives are the only driving factors, then I conclude that people are unwilling to pay equal amounts for a product that has no associated baseline costs and a product whose cost is dominated by those factors.

    41. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      You mean cracking the servers and getting the game from them, and also the server platform, and then setting up a server, and then cracking the client so that it connects to the unofficial server.

      Yup. New school, meet old school. That's exactly how hacking used to be done - breaking into various remote systems.

      Really, all this will do is bring back the joy and challenge of hacking on a larger scale. Less brute force and more delicate subterfuge. If there are no more offline systems to hack, the offline hackers will just join back up with the remote systems hackers and the hacking world will be whole once more. ;)

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    42. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Yosho · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Nothing stops them from resurrecting old titles as a "Vintage Special" and offering you the privilege of playing them for a fee.

      Uh, except for going out of business. Assuming they had the proposed sort of DRM, if I wanted to play Pool of Radiance again, who would offer that? How about Tyrian or Jazz Jackrabbit...?

      --
      Karma: Terrifying (mostly affected by atrocities you've committed)
    43. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Mistlefoot · · Score: 1

      Wow.

      et al....

      Buy the game, buy updates, pay a subscription fee......

      Significant price drops?

    44. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by muridae · · Score: 1

      Mob AI in MMORPGs is a very simple thing. Pathfinding towards the player with the most aggro, if distance range then cast a spell or shoot an arrow. Then you have physics, which most MMOs just ignore. So far, I have not met an MMO that put my CPU at 100% while at minimal graphics, just so it could calculate world effects and AI. Some newer FPS, on the other hand, do exactly that. If you drop their AI on a central server, you are going to need more processors available, not fewer. The company would have to shell out for a huge data center, or make the AI requirements a bit less severe. The end result would be less a unique experience, as the AI had to handle itself with far less resources.

    45. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by celibate+for+life · · Score: 1

      A new company can buy those games' rights and stream them. If there's profit to be had, there's a way...

    46. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i might have done so, but i preferred not to.

    47. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      If you buy in to it, the laugh's on you.

    48. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      A full game? Nope, sorry, hasn't been done

      Cube?

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    49. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      They claim the connections are fine, I'm more worried about the cost efficiency of running the hardware for those games. How much hardware would you need to handle the peak load and will they be able to sustain that (especially the regular upgrades, people aren't renting remote computers to play their games at low detail) without making subscription fees too high? Also it sounds like the monthly fee does not include games, you have to buy/rent those extra.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    50. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Imrik · · Score: 1

      Or the new company could just sell copies of the game, once the game is that old you don't need to worry so much about protecting it.

    51. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by hitmark · · Score: 0, Redundant

      sure hope the above hits a 5.

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    52. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

      The ISPs aren't going to just bump the speed of their entire network because the content industry says so.

      Very true. Especially when combined with the data that the government paid them to light up the dark fiber back in the 90s, so we could all have such speeds, and that fiber is still dark.

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    53. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      The traditional model fails because it relies on the price of copying being higher than the price of buying.

      I wouldn't call it failing, it's still making a ton of money. Just because some people are playing the games for free doesn't mean the system is broken, it's only broken if it stops making money.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    54. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Reality+Master+101 · · Score: 1

      market forces have no control over initial prices, only what the price will trend towards. Companies could base their initial price on anything at all- greed being a significant factor.

      Uh, who said anything about "initial" prices? That has no relevancy to the current discussion. And even if it did, why don't companies charge $1,000 / game, and be REALLY greedy? By your logic, market forces don't matter and people would just pay it.

      If the quality of the product and the price of the alternatives are the only driving factors, then I conclude that people are unwilling to pay equal amounts for a product that has no associated baseline costs and a product whose cost is dominated by those factors.

      I didn't say that were the "only" factors. Obviously, they are not the only factors. People (at this point, at least) prefer paper. Paper and electronic formats are in competition with each other, hence the reason one is cheaper than the other, because people don't perceive them as equivalent.

      --
      Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
    55. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      I know Tyrian has some opensource clones available (the code was revealed to some opensource group to reimplement as opensource, the art assets were released for free), you can even get a port for the iPhone. Also this page seems to be the official site of the game's developer (or what's left, anyway) and it has a download for Tyrian 2000.

      Jazz Jackrabbit is supposedly available here.

      I couldn't find anything on Pool of Radiance, however.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    56. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by GrayNimic · · Score: 1

      Isn't that probably part of the point? If you can't replay the (old) library you already have, you (might) be more likely to buy popular_new_game instead. Or at least, so I'm guessing the theory goes ...

    57. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Grrr, missed a quotation mark in the anchor tag and the whole thing got dropped...

      This is the Tyrian page: http://www.freewebs.com/worldtreegames/

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    58. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by HeronBlademaster · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      I don't know about you, but my high school didn't teach an economics class. Anything high school may have taught me about economics was incidental to whatever other subject I was supposed to be learning. I didn't have an actual economics class until college (and that one was actually valuable).

      I think perhaps it would be an improvement if high school taught economics.

    59. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

      You think they will drop their prices? Obviously, you don't know anything about the spines of the gamers.

      There, I fixed that for you.

      Producers don't set prices. Buyers do. If the gamers want lower prices, they need to buy cheaper games. But they don't. That sends the message that gamers really don't care about DRM, and don't care about price.

    60. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Maybe you missed the gaming news last week, where 100s of thousands of people showed they were willing to buy a virtual flying horse they not only didn't own, but had to pay $15 a month to have access to for the price of $25 in World of Warcraft.

    61. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by TavisJohn · · Score: 1

      That hardly solves the "Vintage Special" concept.

      Plus if I already paid for the PC version... Why should I purchase it AGAIN!

      I have games in my "Archives" that were not that popular, but I really enjoy them. No gaming company is going to buy the rites to many of the games I like to replay.

    62. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by TavisJohn · · Score: 1

      I miss read the "Vintage Special" as beeing free, not for a fee... But the rest of my statement still stands.

    63. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Sinryc · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Games are more akin to food or drinks? Man, you obviously don't see the real world much. I'm in college and I know LOTS of folks who havn't bought games in a while so that they could, you know, buy food or drinks. Games may be a tad addictive but they aren't like drugs THAT much.

      --
      Yay, I have a sig.
    64. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Khyber · · Score: 1

      "Here is how unbreakable DRM will eventually work:"

      Man can make it, man can break it. If you think otherwise, you're a goddamned fool.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    65. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by celibate+for+life · · Score: 1

      Plus if I already paid for the PC version... Why should I purchase it AGAIN!

      Because companies would profit.

    66. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by TavisJohn · · Score: 1

      Why should I pay again for a game I already own?

      In EA's case if I want to play Assisin's Creed 2 10 years from now... And they have taken their DRM servers offline, I am screwed! And if they decide in 15 years to re-release it as a "Vintage Special" then they will probably make be purchase this "new" version all over again, with all NEW DRM!

      So far the only game that has been re-released, that I have re-purchased is "Secret of Monkey Island Special Edition". This is because they totally updated the game, but kept the classic feel of it. However I have games in my archives that I like re-playing, but I doubt I would purchase a "Spiffied up" version of.

    67. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Khyber · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Price is not based on "greed"

      And you just failed economics *AND* you failed to understand human nature.

      Ever wonder why we have to haggle on prices? Because motherfuckers are greedy.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    68. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Khyber · · Score: 0

      "And even if it did, why don't companies charge $1,000 / game, and be REALLY greedy?"

      I'm Rich app on the iPhone, $999 for a fucking spinning digital jewel.

      What were you saying? You *REALLY* need to get away from your computer and go see the real world, because it's becoming painfully obvious you're not paying enough attention.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    69. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Khyber · · Score: 1

      "How about Tyrian"

      http://members.iinet.net.au/~vannevar/tyrian/

      Tyrian was released as freeware AGES AGO.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    70. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Khyber · · Score: 1

      http://members.iinet.net.au/~vannevar/tyrian/

      Here's the official page with EVERY Tyrian version.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    71. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      So you assume that the average slashdotter has never heard of supply and demand and tell them they 'need a mandatory economics lesson' but I'm the arrogant one? The fact is the posts you're replying to seem to have a better understanding of our economic system than you do.

    72. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Khyber · · Score: 2, Informative

      "Wow does not have assets stored on the client side."

      Gee, I wonder what this shiny fucking WoW disc is for, then?

      Looks like a fair deal of assets are stored client-side to me.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    73. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      That is, you will play "unbreakable" games remotely.

      No, I won't. At least, not if they are charging for it.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    74. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      If I had mod points, you would have mod points.

      The transition to digital downloads has seen initial prices remain high, and average sales prices increase. Why increase? You don't get the shelf-clearing discounts, used sales, etc that you get in the real world. Steam excepted, you don't generally see games decrease substantially in cost in digital-only marketing. Further, the companies want to maintain the impression of value in their products, and as such don't want to cut their own legs off. In essence, if a game is worth $60 to the player, the delivery mechanism isn't as important as the content.

      I find it funny that people are talking about the "greedy media companies" in an environment where game development companies are going broke and laying off left and right. I was laid off in December, with a group of 50 other developers. EA had layoffs. Activision laid off half of Radical, large chunks of Neversoft, and all of Luxoflux. I'm looking for a job right now, and am competing with the hundred or so developers that Sega let go of last week. While those numbers are pretty small in any other industry, there are maybe 20 studios with open design positions right now across the US. The Sega layoffs could fill those positions alone. And until people start hiring again, we're going to continue to lose experienced, talented developers. Once the economy is moving again, you're going to see late, poorly-produced titles being created by people who have little experience with the realities of 200-man team game creation.

    75. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      The tired old, simplistic view of "supply & demand" doesn't apply to a product that has infinite supply and basically a $0 distribution cost. The rules are different.

      I see this argument in the housing market all the time too. People chant like zombies, "oh, it's supply & demand!" Without considering the multitude of factors (both real and artificial) that influence both the supply and the demand. You might as well just say "well, that's life" because it's just as insightful.

    76. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Ever wonder why we have to haggle on prices? Because motherfuckers are greedy.

      There is something to what you say, of course the necessary corollary is that they are also stupid. I run into this quite a bit. A company that charges a "fair" markup on its costs will do better in the long run than a company that haggles to get every dime. It is why haggling went away for a long time in America (and elsewhere, but I am less familiar with the economics of this sort elsewhere). Quaker merchants in the colonial era sold their merchandise for what they believed to be a fair markup over their cost. Everybody knew that when you went to a Quaker merchant, you paid the same amount as the next guy no matter how good of a haggler you were. They also knew that the Quaker's markup was not excessive. Additionally, the Quaker merchants response to people who wanted to haggle was, "That's my price, if you don't want to pay it, go to somebody else." This meant that the merchants who haggled only got the customers who were good hagglers (eventually, as people who weren't good hagglers realized they were paying more than from the Quaker merchants) and therefore could not make as much money as the Quakers (or other non-Quakers who followed the same model).

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    77. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by rmushkatblat · · Score: 1

      That's an idiotic example. The whole point of that app is to show off your wealth, therefore making its price entirely justified.

    78. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by BLKMGK · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'll throw in my .02 here. I stopped buying games. I stopped buying games because they became VERY expensive, are hogs, are being dumbed down to run on the console first and the PC second, and because the DRM is becoming ever more intrusive. Case in point: Supreme Commander 2. I LOVED the original TA game, I enjoyed Supreme commander 1, and now this... Built for console, dumbed down for the PC, and it requires STEAM. No sale. I like FPS, I play UT2K4 and once in a blue moon UT3. I have tried Battlefield and some others but nah too expensive and more and more complex. UT3 was even a PITA with better graphics but gameplay that wasn't as interesting to me and nowhere near as many 3rd party levels - maybe that has changed - and DRM that was more difficult than UT2K4 to deal with. I don't want to have to go find my DVD, I don't want to HAVE to be connected, and I don't want my machine inspected to see if I'm running software the company doesn't like. Yes, I actually had one of those pseudo DVD mount programs running for something other than game piracy and it kept me from installing a legit game I had purchased.

      The game industry has shot itself in the foot. They are moving to consoles just as fast as they can and dumbing things down because of it. It's a real shame that just as PCs have become quite powerful and video cards disgustingly fast that video game companies seem to have decided to abandon the platform. It sucks for people like yourself but when games are so ridiculous as to REQUIRE you to be online to play them then the companies have asked for the crap that follows. Sell me a game for say $25 that doesn't completely suck and I'm all over it. It doesn't need video realistic graphics just decent gameplay and the ability for 3rd parties to expand it ala UT2K4. Then the company can spend a little less development time on the graphics and a bunch more on a decent engine that will last a good bit longer.

      FWIW - we already see poorly-produced titles being delivered late with tons of bugs - that's reality.

      P.S. I own a Wii, a PS3, and a 360 (if this one doesn't fry) but I really prefer the PC for games. On those consoles I buy USED games and play them FAR less than my PC. While console development is of interest to the game companies it's not much interest to me - not at $60 a game!

      --
      Build it, Drive it, Improve it! Hybridz.org
    79. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by BLKMGK · · Score: 1

      Umm, not all of us. I've not bought a brand new PC game in ages and most of the console games I own were used when purchased. $60 for a game that will almost certainly turn out to be buggy, or dumbed down for console play, and cannot be returned after having been opened is crap and I'm not participating. I almost bought one of the new PC games until I found out it was DRM laden, dumbed down for a console interface, and they screwed up the game play despite it's being labeled as a successor to a game I loved! Luckily a friend bought it first and told me how crappy it was. Sad when you buy a new game on DVD and then have to download a metric ton of crap just to get to play it the FIRST time! That was a Steam game - steaming pile is more like it. They can take that sales model and stick it...

      --
      Build it, Drive it, Improve it! Hybridz.org
    80. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by poopdeville · · Score: 1

      The tired old, simplistic view of "supply & demand" doesn't apply to a product that has infinite supply and basically a $0 distribution cost. The rules are different.

      No, the rules are not different. The only difference is that the price is set merely by the demand, at a point where it is at unit elasticity (where they start to lose out on total earnings, because of lost sales, if they raise prices, and lose out on total earnings because of lost profit, if they lower prices).

      --
      After all, I am strangely colored.
    81. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by AftanGustur · · Score: 1

      At which point prices will have to drop significantly because you're no longer selling a game; you're selling a subscription to a game

      If you think you are buying something more than the "right to play until the seller decides otherwise" when you are sadly mistaken and you need to read the EULA.

      --
      echo '[q]sa[ln0=aln80~Psnlbx]16isb572CCB9AE9DB03273snlbxq' |dc
    82. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I screwed up and should have made this point clearer, but I was really referring to 'modern' games. I'm sure Cube is a fun game. And there are lots and lots of OSS/free games & engines. But none remotely approaching the quality of an average AAA game.

      WoW, while simpler in appearance (not quite requiring the graphical expertise of other games) is really on quite a whole other level altogether. An MMO isn't something you can just toss together: it requires experts from all fields and a metric ton of money; even the most renowned independent developers find it a task approaching infeasible (even for Infinity). I'd expect a full (open) WoW clone with no re-use to take something in the order of 12+ years for the best of volunteers.

    83. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by kaizokuace · · Score: 1

      I think he was confused on the difference between the data of the instances of objects versus art assets or the actual 3d objects to be rendered.

      --
      Balderdash!
    84. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by qubezz · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And that would be relevant if they had equivalent sales. As things stand, it actually argues against your point: ebook sales in the US last year come to about $13 million dollars out of a (roughly) $23 billion dollar a year industry, according to the AAP. If the quality of the product and the price of the alternatives are the only driving factors, then I conclude that people are unwilling to pay equal amounts for a product that has no associated baseline costs and a product whose cost is dominated by those factors.

      The low numbers are partially because the baseline cost is free - go to the library (or Project Gutenberg for pre-1923 works, the last year to probably ever be public domain). The truth is, the product you buy is not a product, it's a one-platform non-transferable DRM encrusted unresaleable bunch of words that will be disabled when the dot.com at the other end of the wire decides it's profitable to abandon or goes out of business, sold for the same price as a tangible product. Ebooks are massively crippled so they are worth even less than a sherlockholmes.txt ASCII file, and yet have still been priced uncompetitively, almost so they won't make a dent in the centuries-old paper codex business.

      The only sheeple customers who can't say no to DRM seem to be those who respond to marketing that tells them they need to buy the latest gadgets to be cool and fashionable. Why do you think iPhone buyers were so upset when the price of the phone dropped from $600 to $400? Because more people could afford to join the fashionista club.

    85. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by sjames · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The fact that prices consistently fail to fall to just about the marginal cost of production DOES, however prove that there are either very few truly healthy markets out there or that market theory is fundamentally flawed.

    86. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      grow up dickhead. If you dont like the price, dont buy.
      or be a slashdot cunt and whine about how you are entitled to other peoples work for free, like a fuckinh sad little child. Thats the norm here.

    87. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by linear+core · · Score: 1

      Then why does one buy online games such as WoW and then also pay a subscription fee. No, you still have to buy the damn "unique key" to play the game, which incidentally, costs about the same as a box game. But, of course you do get a "free month."

      TANSTAAFL, my friend. TANSTAAFL.

      --
      Human beings are the biological version of Von Neumann machines.
    88. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Reality+Master+101 · · Score: 1

      I'm Rich app on the iPhone, $999 for a fucking spinning digital jewel. What were you saying? You *REALLY* need to get away from your computer and go see the real world, because it's becoming painfully obvious you're not paying enough attention.

      So... you really -- REALLY -- believe that if gaming companies decided to charge $1000 for their games, people would just pay it? And the companies would make a huge amount of money from that?

      Ladies and Gentleman, I present proof that economics education is needed even worse than I thought.

      --
      Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
    89. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      ...nothing but impossibility.

      If all the data is stored on company servers, and the company goes belly-up, then the data will only be saved by the BENEVOLENCE of someone within the company. If nobody actively chooses to save a complete data set at the time of failure, then the material is gone, poof.

      OTOH, many games from dead companies have been saved purely by fans getting together, reverse-engineering a little bit of the code from their old install disks, and putting out a version that will play on modern systems or via emulation. Public-domain, abandonware, gog.com, whatever -- they can't resurrect an old title if nobody has a functional copy of the game.

      To put it another way, we don't know what will be considered relevant in the future. We've lost many, many silver-screen titles, early television shows, and early works from later-famous actors due to inadequate archiving. The ordinary sit-coms weren't such a huge loss, but the sports recordings, the newsreels, the old interviews of famous people, the artistic works... A big part of that loss is a result of only one or two copies of most of these things existing, and those being in the keeping of companies with no real interest in dropping money on preserving old unprofitable junk. Fans are the ones that keep old media alive. Today, most any fan can afford a terabyte-sized drive, which will hold a LOT of media, video games or otherwise. Asking fans to trust some company out there to NOT axe 5, 10, or 20-year-old games that they probably didn't even design themselves during some round of budget adjustments is bogus.

      Game companies: give me hard copy, give me a GOOD reason to connect to you (MMOs qualify), or keep your software to yourself, lest I remember your game fondly in fifteen years and not be able to replay it.

    90. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by debatem1 · · Score: 1

      I agree. Even those who- like me- consider an ebook to be a superior product to a physical book are seldom happy to pay as much for one as for a hardcopy. It seems obvious to me that today's consumers of digital media demand that in addition to getting great content, they not get screwed on its pricing and availability structures- ie, that the publishers have been greedy, that consumers have not tolerated it, and that the market has accordingly spoken.

    91. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by debatem1 · · Score: 2, Informative

      market forces have no control over initial prices, only what the price will trend towards. Companies could base their initial price on anything at all- greed being a significant factor.

      Uh, who said anything about "initial" prices?

      Ebooks as a mass medium are still clearly in their infancy. The wide range of pricing models, distribution mechanisms, and presentation mediums argues strongly that ebook publishers and retailers have a great deal of uncertainty about what the market will eventually consider a good price for ebooks. Because no such consensus has been reached, I think its fair to call this the initial pricing stage. If you have an alternative terminology I'm open to it.

      That has no relevancy to the current discussion. And even if it did, why don't companies charge $1,000 / game, and be REALLY greedy? By your logic, market forces don't matter and people would just pay it.

      I've just constructed an argument BASED on market forces for why you're wrong. Add a logic- or perhaps reading comprehension- course to the lineup of economics you seem to have missed. Math would probably be helpful as well- with an emphasis on minimization and maximization.

      If the quality of the product and the price of the alternatives are the only driving factors, then I conclude that people are unwilling to pay equal amounts for a product that has no associated baseline costs and a product whose cost is dominated by those factors.

      I didn't say that were the "only" factors. Obviously, they are not the only factors. People (at this point, at least) prefer paper. Paper and electronic formats are in competition with each other, hence the reason one is cheaper than the other, because people don't perceive them as equivalent.

      Either the other factors are substantial or they are not. If they are substantial, then your earlier comparison was invalid and you were threadshitting (again). If they are not substantial, then my argument holds and your assertion about baseline costs was, er, baseless. In either event, you haven't given any evidence to support your highly dubious claim that greed has nothing to do with pricing.

    92. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Kijori · · Score: 1

      And that would be relevant if they had equivalent sales. As things stand, it actually argues against your point: ebook sales in the US last year come to about $13 million dollars out of a (roughly) $23 billion dollar a year industry, according to the AAP. If the quality of the product and the price of the alternatives are the only driving factors, then I conclude that people are unwilling to pay equal amounts for a product that has no associated baseline costs and a product whose cost is dominated by those factors.

      While his analogy is far from perfect I think it does a better job than you give it credit for. I certainly don't agree at all with your suggestion that because electronic books are not consumed to the same degree as printed ones it shows that they value the cost of production, and I've highlighted in the quote above where I think you go slightly wide of the mark.

      You see, demand is not just a function of the quality of the product and the price of the alternatives; one very important factor is the complements of the product - this refers to those things that you usually buy to use in conjunction with the product; cars and petrol are complements, as are computer hardware and computer software. One massive problem for ebooks is that the complements of ebooks are expensive - really you need a dedicated ebook reader, and these are expensive and not widely owned. This has the effect of depressing demand.

      Of course this doesn't mean that the cost of production has absolutely no effect - people don't like to feel like they're being ripped off and will avoid buying things if they think the markup is excessive. But the GP's point is sound - people don't base purchasing decisions on the cost of production; they generally don't have any idea what that is.

    93. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by svirre · · Score: 1

      That sounds about right.

      Dumpster diving and insider leaks is a major form of cracking after all.

    94. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by debatem1 · · Score: 1

      Your point about associated costs is well taken, but I think you may have missed my intent, probably on account of my not being terribly articulate. Allow me to attempt an explanation.

      The conceptual framework that the OP is advancing asserts that consumers do not consider cost of production as part of their purchasing decisions. The burden is on him to present evidence of that, and he did so with the above analogy. For that analogy to be valid, the comparison between books and ebooks as markets must be valid. To prove his point that baseline costs don't matter to the consumer, however, imposes an additional restriction: that these two things only differ significantly in that one way. My counterargument was therefore intended to be two-pronged: firstly, that if that is the only significant difference between these two things, then his argument is factually incorrect and must be rejected. Secondarily, I argue that if there are significant differences between the two, then he has provided no proof to sustain his assertion, and it must be rejected in favor of the null assertion.

    95. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Goaway · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Man can make a one-time pad, man can not break a one-time pad. Your generalization is false.

    96. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No game company is going to pay to keep servers running so customers can continue to play the game that long after it was released.

      Please see DICE & Electronic Arts' Battlefield series servers. They're the glaring exception.

    97. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      I'm not concerned with OnLive. If every future game from this day forth moved to OnLive (and they won't), I still have tens of thousand of software titles that I can actually control that are out there on the free market. That's enough for ten lifetimes of gameplay.

      I've still yet to experience the great games like Civilization, Deus Ex, Serious Sam, etc., and I would gladly spend the rest of my life playing the classics that are unencumbered by retarded DRM. Games from an era when game companies had to earn our sales and not just sell crap with fancy FMVs and 8 digit marketing budgets. Games from an era when game companies listened to their community and gave a flying fuck about their customers.

    98. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by __aapspi39 · · Score: 1

      I've been on a trial for onlive for the last few weeks and it looks pretty good to me so far. Wait a mo', here comes frame 2, yup still looking good! Oh well, anyone for scrabble?

    99. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Yosho · · Score: 1

      Tyrian was released as freeware AGES AGO.

      But do you (and the other people who replied) really think that would have happened if the original game had this sort of DRM on it?

      --
      Karma: Terrifying (mostly affected by atrocities you've committed)
    100. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by VanGarrett · · Score: 1

      That'll work great, until the pirates crack the purchasing system.

    101. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Sabriel · · Score: 1

      One viable set of economic models is to have no copyrights, no patents, and limited trademarks. A smooth transition to a model fitting that set requires far more political will than currently exists, however market forces (i.e., seven billion people who don't like being told what they can and can't know) will continue to generate motivating feedback. No guarantees that entrenched interests won't push us into some intellectual hellhole first, though.

    102. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Cruciform · · Score: 1

      In other markets prices go down as the market gets bigger.
      This didn't happen with games. They were expensive because they were originally a small hobby market.
      That market has exploded and games have not gotten cheaper at all, despite games going from selling hundreds of copies to hundreds of thousands or millions.

      There are enough consumers now that you could make games 20 or 30 bucks and you would likely see enough additional sales to compensate for the lower price as people would now be able to buy more games each month.

    103. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Yosho · · Score: 1

      Here's the official page with EVERY Tyrian version.

      Official? The page you linked to says specifically, in red text, that the guy who made the page is just a fan and was not associated with the development of the game. The legality of the page itself is questionable, because I'm sure that the GBA version of Tyrian has not been given an official free release. Of course, I'm sure there's also nobody who holds the copyright on the game that is in a position to sue over it...

      But my original point is, even if you could download them for free, those games would not be playable if they had Ubisoft-style DRM on them. (at least, assuming you didn't illegally crack the DRM)

      --
      Karma: Terrifying (mostly affected by atrocities you've committed)
    104. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's pretty clear that you have no idea what the term "assets" means in reference to video games.

    105. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by ildon · · Score: 1

      Looks like a commercial game from 2003.

    106. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by rxan · · Score: 1

      But that's the fault of the hackers or corporate espionage, not the DRM.

    107. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by markov_chain · · Score: 1

      More than just gaming seems to be moving in this "total lockdown" kind of direction. Just look at smart phones, game consoles, the iPad, app stores, cloud computing, etc. If technologies such as these become an adequate replacement for enough PC use cases, they might marginalize the PC at a detriment to society.

      Without a free-to-tinker ecosystem of computing devices, will young brains still be able to grow up as innovators, or will they be more likely to end up tools? Without an accessible "playground" platform will they be more likely to end up in unproductive disciplines?

      Anyone of this mindset should devote effort to evangelize the freedom to tinker values. If consumers don't accept locked down products, supply and demand will keep the PC alive.

      --
      Tsunami -- You can't bring a good wave down!
    108. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't believe it is the future you speak of; it is the present or the very near past.

    109. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by ultranova · · Score: 1

      When internet connections are high enough bandwidths and low enough latencies,

      Which they never will. There's this pesky little thing called "the speed of light" that signals can't exceed.

      all game assets will be entirely stored and run on their hardware

      So they're going to be paying for a beefy computer per customer to play the game, rather than having me do that? And still turn a profit?

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    110. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by oliverthered · · Score: 1

      "Companies charge what you are willing to pay"

      That sounds just like greed to me. Take as much as you can get without concern for other things.

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    111. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by oliverthered · · Score: 1

      "why don't companies charge $1,000 / game, and be REALLY greedy?"

      No that would be stupid, unless is was a very special edition of the game aimed at milking as much money out of fanboys as possible.

      why don't companies give the game away, that wouldn't be greedy at all?

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    112. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by oliverthered · · Score: 1

      a fool and his money are easily parted.

      39.99 what a bargain, if they were being greedy they would have charged £1000 for it, the fools.

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    113. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by oliverthered · · Score: 1

      what's your national debit?

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    114. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Odinlake · · Score: 1

      Here is how unbreakable DRM will eventually work: When internet connections are high enough bandwidths and low enough latencies, you will only have video transferred to you, all game assets will be entirely stored and run on their hardware, never will anything be stored on YOUR end that you will can manipulate.

      Hah! I could point out that the speed of light puts limit on how you can improve "lag" time and so on, but really - contingent on technologies improving, I can just as well claim that any material that is displayed/run/whatever on your machine can be copied, rebundled and pirated/sold independently of its copyright holder no matter what they try.

    115. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by socheres · · Score: 1

      i know everybody likes to think that this is like the near future.
      but i doubt it. i think the input lag games are going to suffer from will be quite big and that will make this kind of platforms only usable for lego games or something. maybe wow...

    116. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's unbreakable? Two words: private servers.

    117. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And don't forget the latency! cable tv can have a second latency and the average user won't complain. Try a 100ms latency on a shooter.

    118. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And yet, they will still be broken. Whether it's a robot crawls all possible downloadable graphics and builds a game engine to serve up a free copy, or whether it's something much simpler like account cloning. There's a myriad of ways that approach can, and will, be broken.

      The correct answer is surely the OP's solution.

    119. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by knarf · · Score: 1

      ISP bandwidth caps and the lack of network neutrality will prevent that from being successful.

      No, those two just play into any potential success of a scheme like this. The 'game servers' would be hosted at the ISP's themselves so that there is no upstream bandwidth consumption and the ISP can claim to be generous to their customers - 'we offer unlimited gameplay for "only" $zillion,-'. The ISP can make money by hosting those game servers and receiving part of the subscription fees.

      If all this sounds like a pernicious scheme that never should see the light of day I can only say I agree. It also makes it all the more likely that something like this will be implemented.

      --
      --frank[at]unternet.org
    120. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by PhilHibbs · · Score: 2

      I will NEVER EVER buy a game that is not totally contained on the media I am purchasing. I like to go back and re-play games for DECADES to come.

      I hope that you still have the freedom to maintain that stance without giving up games entirely.

    121. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by dave420 · · Score: 1

      Seeing as they released the source, I'd imagine it would. The DRM can be simply removed. Problem solved.

    122. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I call bullshit, with enough samples anything can be broken.

      Your one-time pad has an algorithm that generates it's key, and there will be multiple "one-time" keys on any useable system (can't play the whole game in one shot). Find the algorithm, and the pad is compromised. I've done it with 8bit one time keys for old systems on a laptop in 2 hours. More bits just means more power needed.

      With time and a big enough data set anything can and will be broken.

    123. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by IICV · · Score: 1

      One-time pad isn't a DRM scheme. His generalization is true for DRM, which is what he was talking about.

      It's defective by design, after all - they want to create an encryption scheme such that Alice can securely send a game to Bob and Bob cannot create copies of it, but Eve has electrodes in Bob's brain and knows everything he does or thinks or sees or hears. It's just not possible unless you remove the electrodes.

    124. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by harl · · Score: 1

      *points to netflix*

      For the price of half a DVD a month you can get a library of thousands streamed to your house. Plus an additional hundreds of thousands via mail.

      *points to gamefly*

      For less than 1/6th of the price of a game you can play a new game every month.

      I can't recommend gamefly. They have major distribution and supply issues (to the point I canceled it because they were too slow and lost aprox infinitely more discs (3 in 2 years) than netflix (0 in 10 years) but they're a step in the right direction if they can clean up their act.

      If your goal is cost effective consumption of media both of these subscription models beat the pants off of purchasing.

      --
      I find being offended by me offensive.
    125. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by orasio · · Score: 1

      And thus, cartels were born.

    126. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      OTP can be circumvented by side-channel attacks, however.

    127. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because it's not appropriate to post links to pump and dump scams on Slashdot?

      You must be new here

    128. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Omestes · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why do you think iPhone buyers were so upset when the price of the phone dropped from $600 to $400 [macnn.com]? Because more people could afford to join the fashionista club.

      Lowering the in-group bar might be why some people were angry, but I really doubt it was the main motivation for the anger. Even in the article you linked it states that people were pissed because they thought Apple was gouging the loyalists with an artificially high initial price, then lowering it to hook in the normal customers. This is a valid concern, and a valid reason for some indigence.

      Another possible driving factor that is stronger than your reason, is normal anger of a price drop immediately after you bought an item. If I bought a widget for $1000 then a week later, with no warning, the widget went down to $500, I would be rather pissed myself. If I had know, I would have waited the extra week and got it at the reduced price. This, too, is a valid source of anger.

      I'm sure some Apple snob-types got pissed because their exclusive club got a bit less exclusive, but I doubt it was a main factor in the anger, it probably wasn't even a massive contributor to it.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    129. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by TavisJohn · · Score: 1

      Me too. What I have done for some of my older games is download cracks to crack the game I officially own. I burn that crack onto a disk and keep that disk with the install disk for the game.

    130. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, you can already download millions of films, books and songs for free!

      But... it seems the ones you WANT are the ones that have high production values and are easily accessible.

      Which costs money.

      Which means you have to pay for them.

    131. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Goaway · · Score: 1

      I call bullshit, with enough samples anything can be broken.

      Incorrect.

      Your one-time pad has an algorithm that generates it's key

      Incorrect. The whole point of the one-time pad is that this is not the case.

      I've done it with 8bit one time keys for old systems on a laptop in 2 hours.

      Incorrect. You may well have done that with something, but it was not a one-time pad.

    132. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Goaway · · Score: 1

      One-time pad isn't a DRM scheme. His generalization is true for DRM, which is what he was talking about.

      It's defective by design, after all - they want to create an encryption scheme such that Alice can securely send a game to Bob and Bob cannot create copies of it, but Eve has electrodes in Bob's brain and knows everything he does or thinks or sees or hears. It's just not possible unless you remove the electrodes.

      You are only correct as long as you make the assumption the game has to run completely isolated on Bob's system. The DRM scheme being discussed currently is not limited in this way.

    133. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Goaway · · Score: 1

      "Can sometimes", not "can always".

    134. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by sowth · · Score: 1

      Fuck you cuntrag. Where was I saying to copy hollywood's shitty-assed games? I was just commenting on the erroneous assumption that if the gaming companies costs went down or they solved the problem of copyright infringement, they would lower their prices. It is bullshit.

      The real reasons they are interested in things like DRM (real DRM, what ubisoft did wasn't actual DRM), the DMCA, and "piracy" is because they want to eliminate competition, not so much to eliminate copyright infringement. DRM and the DMCA are censorship systems which help eliminate smaller competition. It is little wonder Microsoft has latched onto DRM so swiftly.

    135. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by sowth · · Score: 1

      Netflix and gamefly are rental companies. As far as I know, they have nothing to do with the big media companies. In fact, I seem to recall a news story about how hollywood tries to block netflix from getting movies. Then again, maybe I was getting them mixed up with some of the vending machine companies (I am certain RedBox was one which had to have people go out in disguise, just so they could buy the DVDs they needed.)

      These two stories don't seem to be it? Why Netflix Won't Be the HBO of the 21st Century. / Delayed rentals of new DVD releases is possible.

      Under the situation the poster proposed (game companies keeping the program on their servers and just streaming video), Netflix / Gamefly, Walmart and their kind would be edged out, allowing the media companies to charge whatever they want.

    136. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow someone who still believe that things are priced based on supply and demand has been drinking way too much of that koolaid capitalism crap about free market. Anyone writing books about capitalism and free market knows very well that things are priced based on what they think you are willing to pay. So stop reading these books like you read the bible and get educated.

    137. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hard != impossible.

    138. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Goaway · · Score: 1

      Yes, which is why I did not say "hard", I said "impossible", and I meant it.

    139. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by harl · · Score: 1

      So what if they're media rental companies? That's merely a pedantic statement which speaks nothing to the point.

      The fact that both these companies are doing well and growing shows that your position does not represent the current situation.

      The media companies can never charge whatever they want. Netflix and Gamefly prove this. If the media companies could charge whatever they wanted then people would not be using these subscription services. They also wouldn't be using Blockbuster and Redbox.

      Your position is predicated on the fallacy that people must buy media. It also completely ignores the concept of Supply and Demand. If they raise the prices too much people go to alternate sources. Netflix and gamefly have easy to use lower cost alternatives. If the media companies get rid of them people will still find different alternative sources. We'll see a return of the cheap seat theaters. More people will start obtaining illegal copies.

      As relayed by a VP there:
      Around 2000 Charter Communications started jacking up the price of PPV porn. They honestly believed the price was inelastic. Once they passed somewhere in $15-20 range their revenue tanked, significantly. People simply stopped buying. They immediately backed off and dropped the price back down.

      You, like most customers, seem to forget that you are in control. All you have to do is stop giving them money. They're completely dependent on you. You're in no way dependent on them.

      --
      I find being offended by me offensive.
    140. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by NeMon'ess · · Score: 1

      I agree with you but we don't matter because gamers like us constitute a tiny fraction of the market.

    141. Re:There WILL be unbreakable DRM, heres how: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How exactly does that work that you can't stop buying games but you can stop buying tv sets to play them on? Here, we may buy a cheap beater of a car instead of a new car, but with a 15 minute trip taking 2 hours by bus if you can get there, around here you pretty much have to have a car. No car, no job. No job, no money. No money, no games. And no food. And no drink.

  9. Hypocrisy at it's best ... by GNUALMAFUERTE · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Attached to the "readme" file that comes with the hacked content (which can be found here), Skid Row alerted other hackers that the group's methods were safeguarded against reverse-engineering in order to fend off competing hacking groups and Ubisoft itself.

    Let me see if I got it ... you are against the draconian practices of ubisoft ... so you crack the game and ... protect the source of your crack?

    I guess how you differentiate between hackers and crackers, this guys are nothing but thieves.

    And, before anyone replies saying that this is to protect the patch against ubisoft ... ubisoft created the DRM, they don't need to take a look at the crack's code.

    --
    WTF am I doing replying to an AC at 5 A.M on a Friday night?
    1. Re:Hypocrisy at it's best ... by celibate+for+life · · Score: 1

      It would be hypocrisy if the guys were releasing the game out of principle, to fight what they think is an unacceptable violation of your rights as customers, and... But no. They will crack and distribute any game they find worth their time, draconian DRM or not. Most pirates don't do it out of principle, piracy is mostly about convenience.

    2. Re:Hypocrisy at it's best ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And, before anyone replies saying that this is to protect the patch against ubisoft ... ubisoft created the DRM, they don't need to take a look at the crack's code.

      No, it's to protect against other release groups so they can be first to crack the next Ubi game/s...

    3. Re:Hypocrisy at it's best ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You maen Ubistupid? they won't bother with looking, they'll just sue them and hope the MAFIAA will give them lawyers.

    4. Re:Hypocrisy at it's best ... by Nugoo · · Score: 1

      And, before anyone replies saying that this is to protect the patch against ubisoft ... ubisoft created the DRM, they don't need to take a look at the crack's code.

      You'd think, right?

      --
      I explicitly release the above into the public domain.
    5. Re:Hypocrisy at it's best ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So how is Skidrow profiting from releasing this crack, exactly? That makes him a thief, because he's releasing the crack for free?

    6. Re:Hypocrisy at it's best ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your post would make sense if SkinRow et al were primarily concerned with cracking protection so they and others can pirate software. However, that's not really how these groups operate. They do it because it's a challenge.

  10. Skidrow didn't do the hard work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    For the record:

    The actual hard work was done by a community of people who bought the game. They ran a proxy that logged all the "values" sent from the Ubisoft servers to the game. Each time the game progresses to another mission (or similar), it requires a different set of "values" to determine what game data to load (or a very similar method). The people who logged these values then submitted them to a community database, which collected them and sorted out any fake ones uploaded by Ubisoft employees or griefers.

    This community also made a server emulator, which served the "values" to the game upon request. The server emulator, written in python, was a pretty simple HTTP server; the game connected to it by editing the system's "hosts" file and hardcoding DNS responses for ".ubisoft.com" to localhost (where the server emulator runs).

    Thus, the game is only crackable once enough people have bought the game and logged all possible values for all possible missions states. It's not a total loss for Ubisoft in a sense -- it prevents "Pre" releases, wherein a release group distributes the game before the actual release date. It also ensures that a certain number of people must buy the game and contribute "values" to the community database; all in all this ends up lengthening the time from game release to full-working pirate release.

    SkidRow's new crack is simply an IPC (inter-process communication) method of delivering the "values" to the game, bypassing the network connection to the game. Therefore SkidRow's version doesn't use a server emulator running on localhost, but rather patches the executables of the game and has the "values" hardcoded into the cracked DLLs.

    The real issue here is that SkidRow took the "values" database from the community who initially logged them, and pretty much claimed it as their own work. The original cracking community inserted some fake "values" as trackers in order to determine when anyone stole their work and released it.

    1. Re:Skidrow didn't do the hard work by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      griefers

      It always surprises me, how game industry people don’t seem to know the word “troll” at all.
      They are trolls. And this is the normal word to use for them.
      Or I will start referring to trolls as sourpussies just to confuse you! ^^

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    2. Re:Skidrow didn't do the hard work by jeremyp · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The real issue here is that SkidRow took the "values" database from the community who initially logged them, and pretty much claimed it as their own work. The original cracking community inserted some fake "values" as trackers in order to determine when anyone stole their work and released it.

      One group of pirates being ripped off by another group of pirates is not an issue, it's funny.

      --
      All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
    3. Re:Skidrow didn't do the hard work by TheLink · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There is a difference between plagiarism and copying.

      One involves deception or not telling the full truth.

      --
    4. Re:Skidrow didn't do the hard work by Lemming+Mark · · Score: 1

      Reminds me of the days when you needed a password to access any given level of the game so you couldn't jump ahead - except implemented in software so that your *PC* doesn't cheat. Insane.

    5. Re:Skidrow didn't do the hard work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The term griefer came before troll in the gaming world, was common in the 90s. Troll seems to have only gained widestream acceptance in the mid 00s

    6. Re:Skidrow didn't do the hard work by Beelzebud · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      And both involve stealing from someone else, so stop crying about it. There is a difference between being a victim of theft, and being a giant hypocrite!

    7. Re:Skidrow didn't do the hard work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And both involve stealing from someone else, so stop crying about it. There is a difference between being a victim of theft, and being a giant hypocrite!

      Wait.. how was the first group pirating? They bought the game. They just developed a proxy for off line play. That's both legal and ethical in my book.

    8. Re:Skidrow didn't do the hard work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      wtf are you talking about? Trolls and griefers are entirely differently things.

    9. Re:Skidrow didn't do the hard work by carp3_noct3m · · Score: 1

      The scene world is very high-schoolish like that.

      --
      "It's ok, I'm completely secure as long as my iron is off"
    10. Re:Skidrow didn't do the hard work by causality · · Score: 1

      it prevents "Pre" releases, wherein a release group distributes the game before the actual release date.

      If that's their concern, maybe they should implement strict controls on their employees and business partners (i.e. game reviewers), not on their customers. Without an internal leak of some kind, how else does a game get distributed prior to the release data? It's like when screener copies of a movie end up on torrent sites; the MPAA's problem there is with their own people.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    11. Re:Skidrow didn't do the hard work by Draek · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And both involve stealing from someone else

      No, as a matter of fact neither of them do.

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
    12. Re:Skidrow didn't do the hard work by Khenke · · Score: 1

      "It's not a total loss for Ubisoft in a sense"

      Yes it is. It prevents me from buying any game they releases.
      I pre-ordered but canceled Spore because of DRM (still not buying it even if I could have bought it for $7 on sale). I was very interested in Settlers 7, but I'm no longer. Ruse is a game I'm VERY interested in, but will never buy because of DRM.
      If I see a new game and it looks interesting I read about it but as soon as I see the word Ubisoft, I just continue to something else.

      That for me is a TOTAL loss. I loose and they loose. Buying games is my main hobby but it gets harder and harder to spend my money.
      (I got f*cked by Infinity Ward over MW2, that I regret buying. But I will never (= most likely never) buy anything from them again, not that they will exist for long...)

      My list over companies that wont get my money grows longer and longer, but Blizzard and inde makers are always welcome to get them as long as they stay away from DRM and other "f*ck the customers in the *ss" stuff.

      But hey, as soon as I have my Starcraft 2 and Xsyon I don't care for 6 month or so. :)

    13. Re:Skidrow didn't do the hard work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To me, what's funny is that some idiot believes that deriving a way to sidestep DRM constitutes "piracy". The "piracy" concept means that someone gets financial reward by commercially distributing works without the authorization of the right's owner. If you don't have a commercial distribution you don't have "piracy". So stop being a moron.

    14. Re:Skidrow didn't do the hard work by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      Without an internal leak of some kind, how else does a game get distributed prior to the release data?

      Well duh, it falls off the back of a truck while being shipped to GameStop.

    15. Re:Skidrow didn't do the hard work by Goaway · · Score: 1

      "Troll" is an old Usenet term. It is certainly older than "griefer", but it also meant something quite different.

    16. Re:Skidrow didn't do the hard work by Beelzebud · · Score: 1

      You can play dumb and naive all you want, but give me a break. How were they pirating? Are you serious? They were pirating by making a website that gave away all the DRM hashes, and then helping to build an emulated server that let others play without paying. You can go with the 'proxy for offline play' if you like, but don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining.

      Mod this one flamebait too, warez kiddies, the truth must hurt.

  11. Almost 2 months by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    In 2001, a developer at Insomniac wrote an article about how they went about protecting their new Spyro game. It also took two months to be cracked. But as he says in the article, the goal was not to be unbreakable, but to delay the hackers -- 50 percent of the total sales occurred in the first 2 months.

    Effectively, Ubisoft has already won.

    1. Re:Almost 2 months by olehenning · · Score: 1

      I see your point, but Ubisoft will have to stick with this longer if they want to win. For Assassin's Creed 2, this was probably a loss, as the draconian DRM gave them a ton of bad press. In the long run though, people will most likely get used to the crap they have to eat and buy the games anyway.

    2. Re:Almost 2 months by celibate+for+life · · Score: 1

      That's exactly the point: to get people used to it. It's no coincidence that they tried this on a sequel of a successful title, that people would want to play regardless of the hassle. After more companies start adopting it and ignoring the complaints, people will just get used.

      They might want to implement it more effectively though.

    3. Re:Almost 2 months by Nasarius · · Score: 1

      But as he says in the article, the goal was not to be unbreakable, but to delay the hackers -- 50 percent of the total sales occurred in the first 2 months.

      There's an unstated, totally unproven assumption that pirates are impatient and will buy the game if it isn't cracked soon. There's been a lot of handwaving about this from people trying to justify DRM, but they're all assuming a link for which they have no evidence.

      My theory, equally unsupported by real data, is that the vast majority of pirates are cheap bastards who aren't going to buy a game for $50-60, period. They'll wait, they'll play the game a little later.

      --
      LOAD "SIG",8,1
    4. Re:Almost 2 months by LingNoi · · Score: 4, Informative

      and from reading the article it looks like the created a testing nightmare..

      The protection was designed to produce effects almost indistinguishable from bugs, so testing was also affected. If any false positives occurred in the protection, they could be reported incorrectly. For this reason a very thorough debugging plan was produced just for the protection. Every location that could trigger protection was listed, along with how long it would take to trigger, what the exact effect would be, and where you had to look to see the effect. Testers had to visit the locations, wait the required amount of time, and then look to see if the protection had been triggered. Having any of the protection give a false positive was obviously our biggest worry. Therefore all the protection was set up on a compile-time switch so that it could be turned off at any time if we weren't absolutely sure that the protection was reliable (and believe me, there were a few moments when it didn't seem to be).

    5. Re:Almost 2 months by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's an unstated, totally unproven assumption that pirates are impatient and will buy the game if it isn't cracked soon. There's been a lot of handwaving about this from people trying to justify DRM, but they're all assuming a link for which they have no evidence.

      In the article, yes. By the game industry today, yes. On Slashdot, yes. In my post, no, there is no such assumption.

      All I did was provide evidence (from 10 years ago, no less -- what's this about DRM being 'new?') that Ubisoft is undoubtedly aware that DRM will eventually be cracked (tip: most game developers are probably as smart/smarter than you are) and that, according to their own standards (delaying pirates, thereby likely increasing sales), the AC2 DRM was a success.

      My theory, equally unsupported by real data, is that the vast majority of pirates are cheap bastards who aren't going to buy a game for $50-60, period. They'll wait, they'll play the game a little later.

      Your theory, coming from a Slashdotter and not a paid game developer, is not 'equal.' But it is certainly credible and has some element of truth to it.

      My personal theory is that /.'ers need to get out more. College students have no qualms about purchasing games; they only do it because they can. Will they wait for the New Game of the Month to be cracked? Yes. Will they wait for Their Favorite Game Ever to be cracked? Probably not.

      BTW, this forum post was cited last time this story appeared on Slashdot: pirate says AC2 will be 'the first game he's ever bought.'

    6. Re:Almost 2 months by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I do know gamers who pirate games and I can confirm what you say: an uncracked game is simply a game they will not play (until the crack gets out, that is).

      I know the plural of anecdote is not data, but... there you go.

    7. Re:Almost 2 months by causality · · Score: 1

      That's exactly the point: to get people used to it. It's no coincidence that they tried this on a sequel of a successful title, that people would want to play regardless of the hassle. After more companies start adopting it and ignoring the complaints, people will just get used. They might want to implement it more effectively though.

      They must have taken a page from the playbook of many politicians. Many bad laws work this way. The politicians know damned well that we almost never repeal laws that don't work well, so once the bill gets passed it will be on the books forever despite any opposition. Eventually, you end up with an entire generation that has grown up knowing nothing else and the intention is that they won't try too hard to imagine any other way.

      Having actual principles and sticking to them is the best defense against this.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    8. Re:Almost 2 months by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you look at any media release (film, music, games) you will see that a majority of the sales are always in the first 2 months, and more often than not, in the first week.

    9. Re:Almost 2 months by swilver · · Score: 1

      I play games, but I don't *need* games. If games become too much hassle to get working properly, I'll find something else to waste my time on.

    10. Re:Almost 2 months by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It does add complexity, without doubt. But this is basically standard procedure for QA teams; it's not the developers doing the most testing, but usually a team (sometimes of many 100s) assembled (often) by the publisher.

    11. Re:Almost 2 months by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which article? This quote is quite old, from gamedevoloper Gavin Dodd and is about the testing in "Spyro: Year of the Dragon".
      Watch the second page under "Testing".

      http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3030/keeping_the_pirates_at_bay.php

  12. Steam? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sadly, the only games I play are distributed on the Steam platform which reasonably protects the game... and still lets me play the games I own when I'm off-line.

    1. Re:Steam? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey if you don't mind losing games you paid for at any time, go for it. Let's all rely on the word of some company that what you buy today will be playable tomorrow.

    2. Re:Steam? by Cassius+Corodes · · Score: 1

      Settlers 7 is on steam - and that has this protection mechanism. Steam doesn't save you at all.

      --
      Control is an illusion, order our comforting lie. From chaos, through chaos, into chaos we fly
    3. Re:Steam? by eeCyaJ · · Score: 1

      Steam sometimes comes with third party DRM. You'll note ACII on Steam has the same restrictions. I do agree that it's a very convenient platform by itself, though.

  13. The DRM system that will probably work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    By Jeff Vogel

    "Much virtual ink has been spilled over Ubisoft's new, harsh DRM system for Assassin's Creed 2. You must have a constant internet connection, and, if your connection breaks, the game exits. While this has angered many (and justifiably so), most writers on the topic have made an error. They think that this system, like all DRM systems in the past, will be easily broken. This article explains why, as dreadful as the system is, it does have a chance of holding hackers off long enough for the game to make its money. As such, it is, if nothing else, a fascinating experiment. From the article, "Assassin's Creed 2 is different in a key way. Remember, all of its code for saving and loading games (a significant feature, I'm sure you would agree) is tied into logging into a distant server and sending data back and forth. This vital and complex bit of code has been written from the ground up to require having the saved games live on a machine far away, with said machine being programmed to accept, save, and return the game data. This is a far more difficult problem for a hacker to circumvent.""

    Apparently not.

  14. Question and Problem by sonicmerlin · · Score: 1

    If Ubisoft applies a similar but tweaked version of this DRM to another game, will it take hacker groups like Skid Row the same amount of time to develop a crack? If so, then Ubisoft will be quite happy to continue releasing games that sell for several weeks before their DRM is cracked.

    On the other hand if this means Skid Row can now apply the same technique to all of Ubisoft's games, then the company has just wasted a lot of money and frustrated many of their customers all for the sake of one game.

    1. Re:Question and Problem by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      Would anyone really be so incredibly lame as to buy a game they could have for free in a couple of weeks? This might work for the second game, but once that pattern is established I would think people would be able to just wait.

    2. Re:Question and Problem by Spad · · Score: 1

      Depends how badly they want to play the game. In the past I've pirated games because I've had to wait days, weeks or even months before my pre-ordered copy is available to me as a UK resident thanks to the usual regional publishing deals and localisation for the non-English speaking countries in Europe. Maybe I should be more patient, but I'm not.

      With platforms like Steam there's not even an argument for delaying it other than the deals done by publishers to avoid upsetting the physical distributors. "Just Cause 2 is now available in the US, but because you're in the UK, the *exact same game* isn't available for another 5 days".

    3. Re:Question and Problem by Jer · · Score: 1

      Would anyone really be so incredibly lame as to buy a game they could have for free in a couple of weeks?

      Yes. For a few reasons. Some people aren't going to pirate the game anyway, so buying it now rather than later won't change how much they're going to pay.

      Even for people who have fewer ethics than that, don't underestimate the power of instant gratification. Many people out there want things NOW NOW NOW! And they're willing to pay extra to have them NOW. It's why some people buy hardcover novels and then sell them off to a used bookstore rather than waiting for the paperback (or even cheaper - putting their names on the waitlist at the local library). Or why some folks bought Avatar this week knowing that they're going to shell out money again in a few months when the disc with the "special features" comes out. The longer they can make people wait for the pirate version of the game, the more people in that tail who are impatient and just won't wait they'll pull money from. And if that's their thinking -- that they're looking at a DRM model that involves inconveniencing the impatient for long enough to squeeze money of them, rather than an unbreakable model that will lock their content up tight forever -- then this might not have been a bad investment for them. It'll depend on what those sales figures end up looking like.

  15. Best of both worlds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Many of us are using a crack to allow us to play the game when and where we want, but that doesn't mean that we have downloaded a pirated version of the game. The crack works with legitimate purchases, so if you see someone on a train playing the game, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are using a pirated version of the game. It just means they have downloaded a patch from a 3rd party which increases the usability of the program I already paid for.

  16. Lag/latency is bad for games And yet-- by way2trivial · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Dragons Lair was VERY successful- and it had a wee amount of delays..

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon's_Lair

    The game's enormous contrast with other arcade games of the time created a sensation when it appeared, and was played so heavily that many machines often broke due to the strain of overuse. It was also arguably the most successful game on this medium and is aggressively sought after by collectors.

    --
    every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
    1. Re:Lag/latency is bad for games And yet-- by Khyber · · Score: 2, Informative

      The delays in Dragon's Lair was for you to have a chance at actually doing the appropriate move at the right moment. Without those delays you'd be fucked.

      I still have the original laserdisc of Dragon's Lair.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    2. Re:Lag/latency is bad for games And yet-- by cgenman · · Score: 1

      Yes, but Dragon's Lair provided an experience that wasn't possible any other way. These days, there is very little that you could do on a server and stream to a computer that you couldn't just do on the local computer. Arguably, On Live could have better graphics than the average machine, but so far they have failed that test. Remember that whatever super-powerful graphics cards OnLive has pretty much has to be devoted 1-to-1 to users playing at peak. Add in servers, streaming, support, administrative overhead, technology tweaks for individual games, negotiations with gaming companies, etc, and the cost savings are probably in favor of the users just buying a graphics card.

  17. When will they ever learn... by eugene2k · · Score: 1

    Put the game mechanics on the server and leave the rendering and sound on the client - there's your perfect "DRM".

    --
    Apple has "Mac vs PC", Microsoft has "Laptop Hunters", Linux has recession
    1. Re:When will they ever learn... by JustNiz · · Score: 1

      Perfect for who? Not the end-user.
      What about people that want to play the game they already paid for without an internet connection?
      What about all the delays and crap when your link is slow or goes down?
      Or more accurately, when Ubisoft's own servers are down and they don't give a crap as we've already seen.
      What about wanting to play the game in maybe 5 years time or if ubisoft go bust?, ubisoft won't be paying to keep their servers up forever.

    2. Re:When will they ever learn... by eugene2k · · Score: 1

      Perfect for both. The user doesn't get weird laws which forbid her to modify or distribute the information they have (and software is nothing more than information), while the software company doesn't get piracy problems. Simply because what you pay for is the _service_ not the software. It's not possible to own software, because software is not something physical. Furthermore this would improve the internet connectivity because that way software companies really would rely on the internet to make a profit.

      --
      Apple has "Mac vs PC", Microsoft has "Laptop Hunters", Linux has recession
    3. Re:When will they ever learn... by JustNiz · · Score: 1

      Congratulations you managed to avoid answering every one my points in defending your idea, so I'll take that as justification that you really don't have any good answers for them, which means your idea actually does suck balls.

  18. get a clue by Norfair · · Score: 1

    Note to Ubisoft and other big game producers: keep treating your customers like potential criminals and they will continue to live up to your expectations. Maybe at some point you will realise that we would have gladly handed over cash for a quality product, but by that time our opinion of you will be so low that even if you all managed to somehow band together and release the best game since X-Com (subjective) we wouldn't even notice. Seriously, these game producers need to get a clue and see where their efforts in DRM have got them so far.

    1. Re:get a clue by cdrguru · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Nobody that pirates is a "potential customer". The end goal of the piracy movement is that it is all free or it isn't even made, and we are about 50% along the way towards that now.

      DRM is a pointless hiccup along the way to utter destruction of revenue from digital goods. Now, whether you think that is good or bad is perhaps interesting. But it is undeniable that this is the goal and where we are going very, very quickly.

      China gave up on selling music already. The US isn't far behind. Europe might be there before the US. Asia, Africa and South America never paid for anything anyway.

    2. Re:get a clue by Lemming+Mark · · Score: 1

      I don't know. Each time I get locked out of a product I've paid for on the grounds that I'm a pirate, I start to wonder if I should (having paid for the product) then use a cracked, pirated copy that won't lock me out. You could argue that that's a step towardsme giving up on paying but I really do *want* to pay a fair price, I just don't want there to be an effective surcharge in time and effort required to work around broken copy protection :-(

    3. Re:get a clue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Absolutely and completely untrue... Everyone I know that pirates, also owns legit copies of at least a few games. I would gladly buy legit games, but not for $50-$60... for instance Call of Duty 4 is 50% off this weekend on steam, and is only $15 so I'm going to buy it, There's no way in hell I can afford these games when they are $50+

      A funny thing about DRM though, I own a legit copy of FarCry2, but actually run the pirated copy with my legit key to avoid all the extra crap the legit version has in it. I don't think I will ever pay for an Ubisoft game again though, I feel ripped off when its actually more difficult to play the legal version that the pirated.

    4. Re:get a clue by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Note to everyone using DRM: I don't buy from people who insult me. To those music, movie, and software houses using DRM: FOAD.

    5. Re:get a clue by Spad · · Score: 1

      I think calling piracy a "movement" is overstating it somewhat. It's like calling Anonymous a movement - it's just a collection of randoms with a common interest whose aims sometimes intersect.

      From my experience (and YMMV) there are several distinct classes of pirates:

      1. Those who can't afford to buy legitimately and so pirate
      2. Those who just want stuff for free
      3. Those who pirate everything, regardless of whether or not they actually intend to use it
      4. Those who have an objection, morally or otherwise, to buying the legit copy - usually due to DRM or company behaviour but still want the item
      5. Those who are undecided about purchasing and want to give it a trial run

      Now, 1, & 2 are dead losses - you're not going to get money out of them. 3, you might do if there was no other way of getting stuff but it's hit or miss. 4 should really take the high ground and not pirate if they feel that strongly about it, but again it's hit or miss as to whether they'd buy the legitimate copy. 5 are likely to buy the item if they like it, so the best way of convincing them is with demos (which are becoming more common again after almost totally vanishing, but EA wants to fuck that one up by charging for them - expect demo piracy soon).

      So, excluding group 2 and to a lesser extent 3, nobody really wants to see the Free or Nothing model because it will likely lead to less free and more nothing. In any case, you're more likely to end up with the SAAS/MMO approach with large chunks of the game being served from the publisher to a client machine, which would suck. Certainly from my POV what I'd like to see is few games that I have to jump through hoops in order to play and maybe a faster drop-off in prices - COD4 is 3 years old and still £20 on the PC (I know, supply & demand and all that, but still...). I still remember having a horrendous time with the Bioshock *demo* because it had SecuROM built in and refused to play nice with Process Explorer - that kind of thing does nothing to endear the publishers to me.

    6. Re:get a clue by Twinbee · · Score: 1

      Luckily, a lot of people have some kind of moral system, which would allow them to purchase digital goods providing they were a: good quality, b: suitably cheap (i.e. unlike Photoshop), and c: had no DRM attached (i.e. unlike stuff from Ubisoft).

      --
      Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
    7. Re:get a clue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I legally purchased the downloadable Raindow Six Vegas, Vegas 2, Lockdown, and a couple others straight from Ubisoft for an HTPC with no CD drive only to find out securom or whatever still bitches it can't find the CD drive and none of them would register/activate. I ended up having to crack all of the games so I can play.

      Fuck ubisoft. I'm not buying another game.

    8. Re:get a clue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      'Nobody that pirates is a "potential customer"'

      Well this is patently untrue. I pirate quite a bit, but I also buy quite a bit. The games that I buy are the ones that I play a lot. The other stuff maybe gets installed, played for 10 minutes then tossed on a spindle and forgotten. I just like to collect more than anything. Maybe it's an OCD thing.

      On the other hand, I've bought games that I've never played because they were a good deal and then I just never got around to installing them.

      I accidentally bought Metro 2033 without knowing it was infected with that Steam garbage. So I play the pirated copy instead, my original key goes unused.

    9. Re:get a clue by GreatBunzinni · · Score: 0, Troll

      Nobody that pirates is a "potential customer". The end goal of the piracy movement is that it is all free or it isn't even made, and we are about 50% along the way towards that now.

      You are wrong. The goal of the "piracy movement" (does that even exist? why do you make stuff up?) is not to "get stuff for free". "Piracy" refers to the unauthorized commercial distribution of copyrighted works. By definition it makes it impossible for a goal of a "pirate" to be the free distribution of copyrighted works. You need to have commercial distribution to have piracy, no exception. Whatever imaginative blurb that may be said beyond that is nothing more than fictional, laughable name-tagging done in order to desperately try to put a negative label on fair use.

      --
      Slashdot, fix your code or at least hire someone who is competent at it to do it for you.
  19. Not hypocrites, liars by iYk6 · · Score: 1

    I read that info file yesterday when I saw this story on another site. I thought the same thing, that it was pretty hypocritical of them. However, now I know better. The only reason they hid the crack is because they didn't want anyone to know that all they did was repackage the crack that has been going around for awhile now. http://cs.rin.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=56074&start=45

    Certainly, they made some improvement (no longer need to run a server or mess with hosts file) but they want people to think they did it all by themselves, rather than cooperatively with the crack community.

  20. Business Method Patent Pending by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And that insight deserves a business methods patent if I have ever seen on ... oops, you put it in a public forum... well, that kills that little money maker.

  21. The next step (an insider's view) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I work at Ubisoft as a programmer, which is why I'm posting as an AC. What the next step will be in the DRM, the ramp-up, is gameplay code that is run from the server. So in order to crack that one the pirates will have to fully emulate the server side code. Not the whole of the gameplay code mind you, just a small, but necessary and essential, portion. This should be in effect for the coming summer releases.
    For the record I think Ubisoft are being asshat idiots in continuing to ramp up this obscenity of a slap in the face to paying consumers. And I'm not alone, you should see the in-house mailing list flamewars about this (which also means that other employees are freaking greedy douchebags, it's not just the suits.)

    1. Re:The next step (an insider's view) by JustNiz · · Score: 1

      Thanks for sharing. I feel sorry for you working there.
      If I were you, I'd be looking for alternative employment, as Ubisoft seem hell-bent on driving their own business into the ground.

    2. Re:The next step (an insider's view) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Oh, I'll be leaving soon, but for other reasons. Mostly because they work you into the ground sweat shop style, they are hellbent on NOT making innovative fun games (it's always about how it looks, not how it plays), and because the place is full of greedy capitalist douchebags.

    3. Re:The next step (an insider's view) by Chowderbags · · Score: 1

      If Ubisoft can't keep servers up from launch day on which only return a response value, how could they possibly hope to keep up servers that have to actually do any heavy lifting?

    4. Re:The next step (an insider's view) by MemoryDragon · · Score: 1

      Hi I am your ex customer, tell your greedy stupid ass**** in the management, that your DRM alone on my person has lost you about three sure sales, and I will boykott your games as long as your DRM is unpatched by you. (And I am probably not alone, just look at amazon, your reputation
      currently is flushed down the toilet, and I do not care if the crackers have done a service you guys should have done, I still will not buy AC2 which I originally wanted to buy)

      F*** Ubisoft, you do not deserve any better than going bankrupt!
      You crossed a line you never should have, I was a loyal customer, but not anymore. I am really pissed, and no I have not
      pirated even one single game by your company, I wish I had...
      (Btw. my first Ubisoft game was stupid invaders, so go figure how many games I have bought from you guys)

      Go along the route and watch your sales going down, given the sales stats of the PC versions and their relatively swiftly dissapearance
      from the charts, the DRM already has backfired to some degree, wait for the next games to be released which probably wont even hit the charts anymore. Go that route Ubisoft, you obviously have deserved to go down the toilet, where you obviously belong to.

    5. Re:The next step (an insider's view) by MemoryDragon · · Score: 1

      Upps sorry, sometimes I should read the entire posting, thanks for positing your honest opinion, all I can say, is leave this shithouse they are hell bent on destroying themselves for the sake of greed.
      I personally still think the entire thing will end up in a sales and reputation fiasco which will be hard to fix.

    6. Re:The next step (an insider's view) by MemoryDragon · · Score: 1

      The funny thing is, that they will alienate even more customers by this... interesting to see how a company runs itself into the ground by sheer stupidity and greed.

    7. Re:The next step (an insider's view) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hi I am the team manager posting as Anonymous and we have tracked that one IP that was posting on Slashdot, hes fired....

    8. Re:The next step (an insider's view) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you were smart, you would go "amittyville horror" on your fellow employees, making sure nobody from Ubisoft ever saturates the market again with their garbage.

    9. Re:The next step (an insider's view) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      And I'm not alone, you should see the in-house mailing list flamewars about this (which also means that other employees are freaking greedy douchebags, it's not just the suits.)

      Please leak them.

    10. Re:The next step (an insider's view) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      FWIW even if they do move more game code (other than branch points or whatever) into the server someone will eventually make an emulator of the server platform. One example is World of Warcraft. There are a lot of private servers not hosted by Blizzard. Doing a move like this is especially damning for a non-subscription based service. The client paid once for his software but you have to keep the server platform online forever. It is a questionable way to run a long term business.

    11. Re:The next step (an insider's view) by svirre · · Score: 1

      If they do not have a complete buy-in from their employees on this policy they will most likely experience data leaks that enable the crackers to make unauthorized servers. Unhappy employees and data security is a bad combination.

    12. Re:The next step (an insider's view) by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Thanks for letting me know to keep avoiding any and all ubisoft products.

      This means these games will be unplayable in 5 years and as I doubt they will be refunding the purchase price, I won't be buying it.

    13. Re:The next step (an insider's view) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And then, someone leaks the server code so that people can actually get both halves of the game that they [might have] paid for.

      Or not.

    14. Re:The next step (an insider's view) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I won't be buying any more Ubi titles, sad since they do the most amazing quality work and in general support their offerings well. When I heard about the AC2 DRM - especially the always on requirement I went into the game store and canceled my preorder (hadn't launched here yet). I'm glad I did from the sounds of it.

      I don't mind the online activation limits that EA has (5 at a time and you can revoke them) or the Steam method.

    15. Re:The next step (an insider's view) by rastoboy29 · · Score: 1

      Even a lot of techs these days have been brainwashed by the major media into believing there are only zero sum games in software development and art.

    16. Re:The next step (an insider's view) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which team? What's a team manager? Can an external organization really track the IP of an AC post on Slashdot, or is this some twisted joke? Fired for the opinion expressed? The information itself is rather useless in any practical way.

    17. Re:The next step (an insider's view) by MemoryDragon · · Score: 2

      I had the exact feeling about their games when I bought the last Prince of Persia (I bought it because it was DRM free)
      the game was all about looks but not about fun, I am not sure when Ubisoft changed their attitude, but the game was clearly not good although it looked spectacular.
      Seems like the last PoP will be the last game from them I have bought in a long time, since they are hell bent to keep up their DRM.

    18. Re:The next step (an insider's view) by MemoryDragon · · Score: 1

      Actually I personally think that in the long run this will be outsourced to companies like Google or Akmai who have the knowledge to run such infrastructure. Just look at what google provides with their app engine, and you can see that they are preparing their infrastructure for cloud outsourcing customers.
      Problem is, that companies like Ubisoft probably do not want to give their servers away but neither have the infrastructure nor the knowledge to keep up such services reliably. Add to that that after 2-3 years running the services will become a money drain and they have to pull it. Given ubisofts history they will not provide a patch, but since one of the Ubisoft management guys openly stated they will... Well all I can say is once they pull this stunt, drag them to court over their own words!

    19. Re:The next step (an insider's view) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As an ex-ubi employee I can confirm this.
      AC2 had the "worst" implementation of the copy protection and we all knew that it was only a matter of time for it to be cracked (allthough I remember a different way most people thought it would be cracked).
      It's a totally different game for Settlers 7 though. The thing is - as parts of the game run on a server it will be extremely hard for hackers to crack it and it takes more than just packet sniffing. Think more about rewriting the game.

    20. Re:The next step (an insider's view) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Welcome to the game industry.

    21. Re:The next step (an insider's view) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you want to help put an end to this, leak the flame wars :)

    22. Re:The next step (an insider's view) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly, the only way to really crack the game is to get the server side code and successfully make the two run on the same computer. So unless there's some kind of leak, it will be real hard to crack. You could get something interesting and partially playable if you can give off a passable imitation of the information generated by the server side code, but probably that would be unstable and would crash a whole lot.

    23. Re:The next step (an insider's view) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      And I'm not alone, you should see the in-house mailing list flamewars about this (which also means that other employees are freaking greedy douchebags, it's not just the suits.)

      Please leak them.

      Probably that would get me fired (contrary to the troll-griefer who posted I was going to get fired, I wasn't.) It would make for a helluva fun and interesting, albeit morbid and disturbing, read.
      The discussions are about half and half. Where you have those on the one side passionately defending the DRM and proposing ways to make it even more draconian and consumer unfriendly. Very chilling, it makes one shudder with a mix of fear and disgust. The other side, against the DRM, are a lot less vocal and a lot more diplomatic in their dissension, for fear of losing their job I guess. It's very different than what you see here, where most, if not ALL, are against it, and also go all in and fully support their disapproval.
      Hmm. The angel on my left shoulder is telling me to leak them, and the demon on the left not to. Fascinating!

    24. Re:The next step (an insider's view) by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      At the very least, save them to release after you've left the company. Or perhaps summarize the arguments.

    25. Re:The next step (an insider's view) by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      Actually, something you could do that wouldn't violate any ethical or legal principles would be to provide contact information for non-purchasers to air their displeasure... preferably multiple physical or electronic addresses that don't resolve to a circular file.

    26. Re:The next step (an insider's view) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wat support ? Ubisoft has NO post-launch support in their internal pipeline for any games after relase, minus a patch or two after release. If you look closely at ANY ubisoft title, they only have some dlc which is released at low peak times and only patches for things that are really dire. Look at how many titles have been patched post 6 months

    27. Re:The next step (an insider's view) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, one question - is there anybody at that company who realizes that they are in fact losing customers ? I was looking forward to playing AC2, and would have bought it. Now I am not buying it and not copying either. My reason is that a) I want to buy a game, not rent it, so that I can replay it again in the future and b) will not break the law to own a game. I will wait until Ubisoft releases a patch removing the DRM, which will probably never happen. Until then I will refuse to buy crippled products like that. DRM is expensive, isn't it somewhat dumb to pay to get rid of paying customers ? Does anyone believe that the cost for DRM + profitloss due to lost customers is made up by the profit made from the guys who will buy when they can't copy ?

    28. Re:The next step (an insider's view) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was planning to go the office of fair trade once I am done with school during the first June giving a complaint about the DRM.
      Thanks for posting it, it gives me motivation to undertake this.

  22. Semantics by Spad · · Score: 1

    This isn't really a crack of the DRM in that it just internalises the server emulation that non-scene groups had already put together so it's not as much hassle to play.

    That said, ultimately you can't crack Ubisoft's new DRM any more than you can "crack" World of Warcraft; they are serving parts of the game from their servers and unless you either obtain a copy of that data and emulate the server (which isn't really a crack) you can't get around it. It's not as simple as just bypassing a CD check or setting a function to always return true, they're actually shipping a partial game and as long as their customers will bear it (and given their awful server uptime they're not helping matters) they'll keep doing it.

    Once games move into the SAAS realm you can say goodbye to owning *any* part of a game you "buy" as all you'll have is the MMO-esque client application and everything else will be delivered over the wire, doubtless with "Premium" subscriptions available if you want priority access to the game servers to minimize lag & waiting time before you can play.

  23. I could *not* care less. by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I wouldn't play Assassin's Creed 2, Command and Conquer 4, or any other game which required a constant internet connection for single player use, regardless of the state of cracks or how low the publisher dropped the price.

    Fuck Ubisoft. Fuck EA. They've both lost a paying customer by pulling this bullshit, and I buy a lot of games.

    Fuck 'em both.

    --
    Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    1. Re:I could *not* care less. by MemoryDragon · · Score: 1

      I stopped buying their games no matter what platform either, so far three lost sales, the number going up, the next PoP would have been one additional sale for them.
      Actually now I would have wished I would have pirated at least one game from them, but the matter of fact is I have not.

    2. Re:I could *not* care less. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've played all of them with the DRM. They worked. I had no problems. The majority of players didn't and DRM will continue to be an integrated part of PC game releases in future. Your protest boycott isn't even a drop in the ocean and the number of people who give a rats about DRM in games is minuscule to the point of absurdity. On a positive side - at least you can go and spend all that money (and more importantly time) you used to spend on games on something else.

  24. Thank you by unity100 · · Score: 1

    if there is any good going to come to society from this, it will be from people like you who stand in deep in the middle of the shit, but do not immerse in it themselves.

  25. People still buy games, really we do.... by Digital_Mercenary · · Score: 0

    I work for a internet chant service and I can Bit-torrent all day log if I wanted too. I still buy video games that I like because I like to know what I'm getting. As far as DRM is concerned. I don't buy those games, nobody should. I don't' care how good the game is. DRM especially in "single player mode" is not security, it's a threat to my privacy.

    EA Sucks ass; Bring Madden Football back to the PC you goat humping SOB's

    -DML

  26. USB by Bloom+Berg · · Score: 1

    Believe it or not after realizing they failed with their internet based DRM they will start to use USB dongles such as this: http://www.elicenser.net/en/

    They will say that an internet connection is no longer needed and that you can use the dongle to save your game progress.

    Due to the way this dongles work they can be cracked but it takes a huge effort and ammount of time for each different title, so they will have the first year piracy-free.

    1. Re:USB by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dongles have been around for a long time and have been cracked before. So I have no doubt it would be done again. Same thing really, just intercept all the calls to the dongle and re-route them someplace else or nop'em'out. I'm sure it's going to be a bit more sophisticated this time around tho.

      That said. While dongles might be the way to go it has a few giant giant drawback; No online sales at all. Since you can't download a dongle, or perhaps that will be the next thing now that floppy disks are "dying" (again); Empty dongles you fill with online content ... NAaaahh ... You'll also have physical access to the dongle so you have all the time in the world to work it over for a solution.

      About this whole Skidrow values thing. Naturally they are going to be the same values in both their crack and that other emulator thing. If there is just one correct respons they would have to be the same. Naturally egg on their face if they injected some fake values in theirs that also then happens to turn up in their.

      So now they tried passing values back and forth. Guess the next step is coming up with some kind of algorithm to create unique numbers for every machine/install/copy_of_the_game/whatever.

      That said. I think I'll pass. "Jumping around" games are just not my thing. To much cursing on my part when you fall of ledges or miss jumps by a pixel etc for my taste.

    2. Re:USB by CompMD · · Score: 1

      The last place I worked I took over license management of a very expensive and very complicated aircraft design software suite. Prior licensing was done with simple password protection and had been broken; piracy of the program was rampant. When I took over I switched to a certain brand of USB dongle that had both logic and memory onboard. Basically, the program checked for certain data on the key at different points during runtime. Parts of the program were also encrypted, and the decryption call in the program required a key on the dongle. The software that was shipped to you was *built* for you and had data embedded in it that matched the key you got. Distribution volume was low (maybe a few copies were shipped per week) so we could do this. For version upgrades or license upgrades, I could send a one-time use file to a customer which their software would read and reflash their key.

      In case of a problem with the dongle, we didn't just give you the finger like Ubisoft does. The program would notify you that there was a problem, and the program would revert to a "shutdown mode" where you could still work with your data, but you couldn't perform calculations, and it would still let you save your work. This was very rare. For a program that cost almost $10,000 for a single perpetual floating license, I thought this was a fair system and almost never got complaints. We even offered a student version of the program at a 90% discount, which was the full program with a one year license which included full support and maintenance. After the one year, if you were still a student, you could renew for $50 (and I would send you a file to reflash your key), or you could send your key back and get the cost of the key refunded, $50.

      Even though I haven't worked for that company since early 2008, to date, as far as I know, after I implemented this license management system, there have been no successful attacks against the program that have allowed it to be pirated. We were nice to our customers, gave their license management software useful features, made it easy for them to renew support or upgrade, and were quick to help them with any trouble. DRM has its place and can be useful, but its extremely important not to be a jerk to your customers. I gave customers what they paid for and didn't get in their way, sales went up, piracy went down.

      I was rewarded by getting laid off, but that's another story. :(

  27. don't use the crack, don't play the games by blueworm · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Do not use the crack and do not play the games with DRM if we want to really see an end to DRM. Even playing the game without buying it can be good publicity that generates sales for those who would complain they are not selling enough. Resisting the temptation to consume products instead of creating our own is the real problem. Instead of consuming things because we feel we need to, if we do not agree with the product we should instead work to create our own. We cannot let self-doubts and temporary failures prevent us from being creative if we are to bring about a new creative renaissance without DRM.

  28. please unthink what you have just thunk aloud by chilvence · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Comparing games to food and drink is just ridiculous. One you can't do without - the other, you think you can't do without because obviously you have more money than sense. Well, some people 'can't live' without heroin either, I'm sure they convince themselves that the drug is more important than food, a roof, friends and family. Good for them, and good for you!

    Of course it is like a luxury item that people will stop buying. YOU are addicted to gaming if you think that nobody has the resolve to just unplug from the cycle. I haven't bought or played any games for years - DRM has always been one of my hates because it punishes ME for what everybody else is doing, but primarily because outright bullshitting on the system requirements by every single company made it impossible to judge what to buy, without doing incredibly monotonous research on hardware and benchmark sites which no one should have to be subjected to. Hardly as big or invasive an issue as DRM, but still enough more me to think 'fuck this for a laugh', so just how much worse is DRM in my opinion and in the minds of millions of other people?

      I struggle to understand how anyone can be intrested in 15 pages of pie charts and framerates for every single graphics card that has ever been packaged as if it tells you anything more than how much money you owe Nvidia or ATI to keep getting the next-next-gen franchise-ware that EA/Activision/UBI have carefully appropriated unscrupulously from more independent and imaginative companies and proceeded to either bastardise into the recurring sports-themed-shit production line or just senselessly killed off for no other reason that to sit on the rights so that no one else can be a threat to them. Good riddance big gaming companies, you'll be driven into the ground by the same simple minded, overbearing buisness environment that you created to make yourself fat and rich off people's ignorance.

    1. Re:please unthink what you have just thunk aloud by oliverthered · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Well, some people 'can't live' without heroin either"

      They 'can', it's just not very nice. I say can as I expect suicide rates would go up quite substantially if masses of people weren't self medicating often after trying the legal stuff.

      People without those kind of persistant problems (such as people taking opiates for 'fun' or for pain relief) don't seem to have too many problems giving the opiate up for good. (quite a bit of peer reviewed stuff about, esp related to pain relief or things like all the herion addicts coming back from veitnam and getting clean without too many problems themselves)

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    2. Re:please unthink what you have just thunk aloud by chilvence · · Score: 1

      That's actually quite interesting to know even a drug that is supposedly a one way ticket is recoverable from. In my opinion addicts are the exception not the rule, the laws are designed only to protect those who have the sense to avoid it anyway. Not that I think it should be encouraged, but the only reason drugs make so much money for a few people is probably because being underground and distributed by murderous thugs, they can charge what they like. If the attitude was 'you can do whatever you like to your body, even be a complete fucking moron if you like', it would send a stronger message than 'drugs will make your brains explode if you even touch them... sooo... dont try! theres no reason to put that theory to the test!'. Because I hate being lied to, even for my own 'good'. As a bonus, driving the supply channels into daylight would force everybody to play nice, it would probably get taken over by bored hippies making locally, rather than criminal gangs of Afghan's who are all having a laugh at us for claiming the moral high ground.

  29. You're missing the point by wall0159 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This isn't about price. This is about the freedom of the internet, which is slowly being eroded, and with it our personal freedom. It's easy to take the path of least resistance and simply seek technological circumventions to censorship and other online restrictions. But, while we keep playing with such toys, those that would control knowledge are busy building both the legislative and technological systems that will make this battle that much harder to fight in another decade or so.

  30. oops by AvitarX · · Score: 0

    d-modding a mistake

    --
    Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
  31. And there's always the problem of latency by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The longer the latency, the worse the user experience. This is because it is a lag of everything, including user interface. You do something, you don't see it happen until later. That is noticeable, and is annoying. Now the problem with latency is that the only real way to combat it is to have the source and destination physically closer to each other. Reason is that light speed is the ultimate limit and while it sound fast, it isn't when talking data latency. Light can orbit the Earth around 8 times per second. Sounds really fast and is, unless you are talking data. To state that another way, that's 125ms. So what that means is that if you want to send data half way around the Earth, you are talking a minimum theoretical latency of above 100ms. Even assuming everything is perfect, that's just how long it would take light in a vacuum to get there and back.

    Of course in reality it gets worse. Fiber optic cable has an index of refraction, which means light travels slower in it. It moves at maybe 66% of c or so. Also you don't get to have a nice direct line with fiber. It snakes around mountains, follows railroads, goes down to the bottom of the ocean, etc. It is longer than "as the crow flies." Then of course there's the routers. No matter how good, they are going to add some latency as the process the information and forward it to the right port. Finally there's the fact that an actual data payload takes time itself to transmit.

    So you have to have servers distributed near to the clients to maintain a nice low latency and make the system work well. This is a problem for two reasons:

    1) Cost. It will cost a hell of a lot more to have servers in data centers all over the world than to try and host them all at one site.

    2) Security. This is the biggy. Given that the point of the is copy protection you have a real problem. If everything is at your site, ok you can take measures to do a real good job securing it. However if it is at various ISPs all over the world, that's a problem. All it takes is someone who works at one of those ISPs who also works with a pirate group to get the actual program off your server, since they have physical access that you can't monitor, and then the program is out in the open. Trying to secure against that with hundreds of sites around the world would be impossible.

    1. Re:And there's always the problem of latency by judeancodersfront · · Score: 1

      Security. This is the biggy. Given that the point of the is copy protection you have a real problem. If everything is at your site, ok you can take measures to do a real good job securing it. However if it is at various ISPs all over the world, that's a problem. All it takes is someone who works at one of those ISPs who also works with a pirate group to get the actual program off your server, since they have physical access that you can't monitor, and then the program is out in the open. Trying to secure against that with hundreds of sites around the world would be impossible.

      Why are you certain they would partner with an ISP instead of using a fat pipe at a colo? Even if they partnered with an ISP they still have plenty of options when it comes to protecting the server code from local access. They also have plenty of options when it comes to making server code difficult to run locally. It's a much easier proposition than protecting a local engine from millions of prying eyes.

    2. Re:And there's always the problem of latency by Xest · · Score: 1

      If Quake and Half-Life 2 had their source code leaked, and if movies are leaked pre-release, sometimes even pre-cinema I don't suspect OnLive would necessarily be any more secure. It's not just OnLive that has to be secure either- the game development studio does, and transport of the game to OnLive has to be secure too.

      Besides, there's another reason I don't think OnLive will necessarily succede- it'll hurt the big publishers too much, so they'll eventually simply say, either publish with us, or publish with OnLive, and they'll do so before OnLive has reached a large enough criticial mass to be able to convince developers to shun classic publishers.

      I suspect at best, OnLive will just become another platform alongside the Microsoft/Sony/Nintendo brands, it might have it's own exclusives from publishers who forego the traditional publishing route, but it'll lack some other titles.

      There will of course be some games it will never have, because of the latency issue mentioned by the GP making some games always impractical to deliver by this service.

    3. Re:And there's always the problem of latency by judeancodersfront · · Score: 1

      It's extremely rare for a game to have its source code leaked and movies are a different matter since they have to pass through a lot of hands before release.

      And as I said the source can be tied to server hardware to make emulation difficult in the event that it is leaked. Just because you got the server code doesn't mean you can load the 15gb of data that exists in an external sql server into memory.

    4. Re:And there's always the problem of latency by Xest · · Score: 1

      The reason leaks of game source code are uncommon is because it isn't really of an awful lot of use to anyone. You can't re-use it for anything because it'd get picked up by automated software for that purpose. However, when there is a will- as there was with Quake and Half-Life 2 because they were so high profile, there's a way. If games are moved to server platforms then the will increases, there is much more incentive.

      Tying to server hardware is not really that big a deal, the ease and frequency which pretty much every console has been emulated through the years is perfectly good evidence that hardware specific code isn't ever really a barrier to anyone running it. At the end of the day they'd have to create some pretty obscure custom hardware for it to be a problem, and then of course they'd require that the game developers have implementations of this obscure platform to test with, and compilers to build for. All the developers would need retraining for this new architecture, and you'd have to hope none of those learnt skills or documentation for this obscure new platform ever leaked.

      Regarding external storage of assets I don't see that makes much difference - chances are if you can get the source code or the binaries, then you can get the assets, because the binaries must inherently be able to access the assets so getting them wouldn't be a massive step further.

      It really just comes down to incentives at the end of the day, whether there's enough incentive to bother. The idea that the process would be leak proof though is a bit far fetched- how many times has that theory been rather embarassingly proven wrong?

      For what it's worth, the movie industry is pretty high security because they've had decades of practice at it but they still fail. The issue for them more often than not is that of financial incentives, they'll often get paid by someone to leak a copy- there's no reason OnLive and the development studios supporting it would be any different.

    5. Re:And there's always the problem of latency by Bakkster · · Score: 1

      So you have to have servers distributed near to the clients to maintain a nice low latency and make the system work well.

      That's exactly their plan.

      My only problem with OnLive is their pricing. I was assuming a monthly rate for 'all you can game' access, but it's actually a monthly fee for the service PLUS another fee to 'purchase' each game you want access to. I'll stick with my current strategy of 'buy one game and play it to death so it's cheaper per hour of entertainment than movies', until OnLive makes it cost-effective to play a larger number of games.

      --
      Write your representatives! Repeal the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!
    6. Re:And there's always the problem of latency by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      Both of those issues have been addressed by the latest Battlefield, which has servers all over the world (which addresses latency) but only allows trusted providers to host servers (which addresses security). AFAIK, the server code hasn't been publicly leaked. In this case, it's done in the name of anti-cheat protections, but the end result is the same.

      Granted, the code will probably leak one day, and if "remote gaming" were universally the standard, some titles would still leak then as well. Still, in such a scenario, you may see a few titles leaked here and there, but that's still less than the 100% of today, so it would be a net gain from the perspective of publishers.

  32. So the gaming industry is becoming "evil" by OrwellianLurker · · Score: 1

    The gaming industry is not a single entity. Companies like Ubisoft no longer get my money, and those who are better do. If all the big gaming companies started to go the way of Ubisoft, I would just buy games from smaller companies. If I cannot buy a game from a company without getting draconian DRM, I will stick to FOSS games and will probably quit gaming all together.

    --
    'Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun.' - Mao Tse-tung
  33. So, silly question by A_Non_Moose · · Score: 1

    Which one works the best for those of us that bought it and hate the DRM?

    Had Peerguardian running and forgot about it when I tried launching AC2...oops.

    Even Allowing ubi.* did not work entirely, logged in and barfed with "no net, exit
    to windows?"...grrr.

    Just want to launch and go. C'mon ubi get a clue.

    If AC3's DRM is worse (knew AC2 was a matter of time) may have to wait out AC3 and
    consider if I should buy or not.

    --
    Have you read the moderator guidelines? Well, have you, PUNK? (and I want a Karma: Gnarly option)
  34. Why bother? by Selpher · · Score: 1

    Seriously, if this kind of DRM can get broken so easily anyway, why invest all of the money into making it? Couldn't that money be used for something better? What they should be doing is just going back to classic old CD keys. 90% of the people are still going to be buying the game anyway, you'll always have a minority who pirate and find a way around the system. So why constantly throw money at trying to stop that 10% when older, laxer systems are just as effective AND have the added bonus of not pissing the customer off?

    1. Re:Why bother? by LordZardoz · · Score: 1

      The DRM only needs to last long enough to protect the product for as long as the game is being actively marketed, or more generally, until the game has become profitable. Also, regardless of the quality of the game, the developers of the game have a right to at least try to sell their product.

      END COMMUNICATION

  35. So success for Ubisoft by nedlohs · · Score: 1

    at least by their metrics. The anti-piracy system worked for enough time to cover the period in which the bulk of the sales are made which is what they really care about.

    Of course on the downside for them, I *loved* Ruse in beta, but I certainly won't be buying it due to this DRM (even though it's mostly multiplayer over the internet anyway). If it didn't have it I would have pre-ordered it already (I hardly ever pre-order but I really liked the gameplay in the beta). But it's just a game, I can live without it.

    They're banking that people like me me are a smaller group than the people who will buy it because they can't pirate it.

    And I wouldn't be surprised if they are right.

  36. Open-source? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This has been the obvious anti-piracy answer for years -- we just haven't had the infrastructure to make it happen. Now we've got (or are getting) bandwidth, and between monitoring, filtering, censorship, copyright, and DRM we're not going to have a damn thing to do with it. Middlemen who can't create still won't be denied.

    Question: why are there so few high-quality open-source game projects? There are obviously open-source designers, from engine to game design to graphics&sound, but they don't seem to get together and do much -- lots of itty-bitty little projects, some of which are amazing (but still itty-bitty), but very little collaboration. Most of the games that play well (Freeciv, Wesnoth, insert roguelike here) look like septic crap; most of the good graphical content is limited to mods on existing commercial titles (endless Morrowind junk, HL2 mods, etc.) Solid game engines will be burdened with gawdawful sprite and UI work, atrocious modelling, or AM-radio crackly, poorly-balanced sound. Why don't some of the people making gorgeous texture packs and replacement models get together with the people pumping out fun-if-you-ignore-that-it-looks-like-filthy-baboon-arse games and make an AA grade game out of it, instead of trite, nichey stuff and graphic packs that get 622 downloads, like, ever? This is BIG-time true for any PVP game, sports games, and racing games; it'd be doable for many linear content-focused games like platformers, RPGs, and 3rd-person single-player action games, too. Where's the anti-Assasin's Creed project -- a nice big frickin' adventure with 3d graphics that don't look like late-90's PlayStation crap, with mechanics that work well and adhere to SOME conventional control scheme, and reasonable depth without requiring weeks of time hunched over FAQs on how not to die to cockatrice corpses or figure out how to map tertiary portside thruster manifold compression to ctrl-shift-k plus joystick_7?

    Am I missing something big? Is there a swath of halfway-decent looking, very-playable games out there? I'm not even demanding a handout; I can seriously do some passable texture and modeling work, especially in terrain, landscaping, and structures, having spent some time doing nature photography. I'd pay back a good game in sweat equity, no problem -- if you MUST HAVE a profit motive from me, I'd like to be able to point prospective employers at a functioning sample of work I contributed to. Where do I sign up?

    1. Re:Open-source? by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 1

      It's been said that managing programmers is like herding cats. The open source world only exaggerates the effect, and the open source GAMES world is downright pathological. Entertainment is subjective. Games are entertainment software. What I think is fun and what you think is fun are almost guaranteed not to match all the time, and could easily be totally disjoint sets. So getting more than one person to work on the same project is very difficult. And it gets worse...

      First, there's the avalanche of a million 12 year olds popping up everywhere with "Ima makea game! gimme gfx and um sound.. stuff and um shit what do I do? shit this is fuckin hard!!!!!111oneoneone i no VB and I wrote some code and it doesnt werk and whats wrong with it and shit this is fuckin HARD!!!!!!oneoneeleventyone can u rite some code for me? ihave this totally AWESOME idea..."

      Second, for some reason there are extraordinarily few truly capable digital artists who will work for free. The ones who will invariably bite off more than they can chew. The younger volunteers are victims of the "praise everything, even if it's utter crap" mentality foisted on them by the modern school system and perpetuated by the endless circle-jerk that is deviantart.com. There are no older volunteers. The occasional quality re-skin for commercial games represents pretty much 100% of the available talent, and the open source world has zero chance of picking those people up because...

      Third, programmers often aren't very good at communicating, so open source efforts exist in a blackhole of nothingness if the coder is good. Of course the effort can easily exist in a blackhole of nothingness whether the coder is good, bad, or indifferent. You can't tell from the outside (except for the rule that the better the website looks, the less substance there is to the game itself). If you're persistent enough to find where the coder talks at all, you'll discover...

      Fourth, open source game development tools are an unmitigated disaster. Exporters and viewers are quirky even at the best of times when the developer is getting paid and sitting in the next cubical. When the developer is on the other side of the world, isn't getting paid, and thinks writing tools is for the entry level code monkey, the results are impenetrable to the average artist who used every available brain cell just to learn 3D Studio Max/Maya/Lightwave and have nothing left to give. Worse, the developer trying to write the game is rarely the developer who wrote the exporter, and very likely has never even SEEN the exporter, so the one person an artist would hope could support him and answer questions... can't.

      Heard enough yet? Tough, there's more.

      Fifth, even when a given developer actually produces something promising, they'll often get bored or otherwise occupied and move on, abandoning whatever it was they produced. Their code rots quietly on random sites, bugs going unfixed, falling behind as its dependencies move on without it. In theory open source buttresses users against this problem by providing a path for anyone to take up where the originator left off. In practice, taking over someone else's code is difficult and more time-consuming than writing your own (or so goes the popular perception)(did I mention the 12 year olds?), so there are plenty of examples of orphaned code bases out there.

      Sixth, game development actually IS hard. There's more math in 3D rendering than in 99.99% of business apps, without even starting on the physics simulation. The artwork required is rigidly restricted to narrow parameters acceptable by a real time rendering engine, and these days requires actual programming of shaders to even complete. The vast majority of hobby projects never get over those twin humps, so they never have to encounter the difficulties of balance, writing an engaging plot, and capturing that most elusive of concepts called fun.

      Finally, the commercial games world marches on, and for all its own dysfunctional tendencies, it still m

  37. its a war out there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    pirates are just protecting their work from ninja, you all know that

  38. Let me paraphrase by unity100 · · Score: 1

    "Calling these rabble revolutionaries is as good as calling rats people"

    you could hear this being said in early days of french revolution. look how it turned out.

    'movements' do not start with some mouthpiece channel spending funds and beating drums to incite some segment of society against laws that are detrimental to private interests like in u.s.

    movements start as a behavior pattern in society. a choice.

    piracy is exactly like that, a choice. you wont find the same people stealing cars, despite they are pirating software or games. it is basically a reactionary, instinctive behavior, just like how french were stealing potatoes from king's potato fields during the famine decade of 1780, while all the produce was owned by french aristocrats and food was very expensive. the same people who stole potatoes from those fields wouldnt rob you if they found you in a dark alley.

    similarly, current society of this planet doesnt see the reason that they should be forced to pay some certain price because marketing decisions of numerous companies decided that it should be priced as such, and then this price be enforced to public through various laws these corporations purchase in assemblies.

    they are 'the market' and they decide what is worth what. definitely NOT the producers of that good/service, coming together and ganging up to arrange prices in a sweet point of profit for them, and then enforcing it. this kind of price fixing happens in every sector without there being a cartel agreement or even any talk in between companies. one does it, the other sees another does it and copies, 3 more copies it and then it becomes the standard of that industry.

    example is, manufacturing costs going down to dimes because of manufacturing moving to china, but goods are still being sold from similar prices as before, with HUGE profit margins. one would think that at least one company would come and do serious competition. but, noen is doing it. why ? cartel without agreement.

    so, just like in french revolutionary period, or just like how spanish STILL smuggled despite king of spain's private company made it an offense punishable by death, people pirate.

    they think that they are paying too much for those goods. something that is that easily reproducable and distributable, shouldnt be that expensive. and here is the result.

    the only way to 'combat' piracy is to sell digital goods cheaper. i put the word combat in scare quotes, because you cant fight the people, as in 'we the people'. the people eventually wins.

  39. Any game can tie data to user response by judeancodersfront · · Score: 1

    those trainers existed because a local engine could be cracked. Tying data to the server changes everything. Even moving a small part of that engine to the server would cause a major problem for the cracker.

    Have fun building a trainer for a racing game when the local client is entirely dependent upon the server for the positions of the other cars.

  40. Torrents are public information by judeancodersfront · · Score: 1

    there are even third parties that provide torrent tracking services. They can't tell if you share it with your friends but they can see when millions of people download the game without paying for it.

  41. Torrents are a conservative estimate of piracy by judeancodersfront · · Score: 1

    and when torrents outnumber legit sales by 9:1 which is a common for pc games they can see that the vast majority of people playing their game aren't paying for it.

    1. Re:Torrents are a conservative estimate of piracy by Theoboley · · Score: 1

      Citation Please

      --
      Stupidity only gets you so far, then you've gotta try
  42. Welcome to another poor rationalization for piracy by judeancodersfront · · Score: 1

    There is nothing ethical about taking the hard work of others without compensation. Most game programmers work 50-60 hours a week in the months before the game is released. Have some respect for your fellow geek. Buy the console version if you don't like the limitations of the pc version.

  43. High piracy just leads to diverted investment by judeancodersfront · · Score: 1

    towards safe areas like the PS3 which still doesn't have pirated games.
    DRM that is tied to hardware and a server connection can be extremely difficult to crack. The more digital revenue is destroyed by pirates the more we move to a future of black boxes where the OS and the content are inseparable. Think app store but with all programs existing on the server and only feeding the user a video stream based on actions.

  44. Or it ends up working and they make more money by judeancodersfront · · Score: 1

    the pc market is a low priority to them compared to consoles. This is probably a last ditch effort to bring their games to the pc.

    1. Re:Or it ends up working and they make more money by MemoryDragon · · Score: 1

      Actually I see it more as a testing ground on how far they can go, Capcom currently tries to pull the same stunt on the PS3.
      The PC market while not as big as it used to be still is very big, you just do not see it officially because the charts are usually done by the retail sales, but the market has moved over to online sales to a very big degree.
      Add to that that the console market is also fragmented over platforms and you have a general pc market which is about as big as a single console platform. Hardly a platform worth leaving.
      But you have more freedom on the PC and you can pull stunts like that as testing ground.

  45. They don't have to do heavy lifting by judeancodersfront · · Score: 1

    as he said they only have to move small amounts of game code to the server. Crackers will either have to get a leak of server code or re-write it themselves. Both are very difficult propositions compared to capturing streamed data.

    1. Re:They don't have to do heavy lifting by MemoryDragon · · Score: 2

      Problem is you you move parts of the code to the server you run into bigger load problems than Ubisoft currently has, they obviously do not have the infrastructure to keep that alive without outages, then you have the lag.
      Etc... it will become harder to crack, but they will alienate even more customers that way, and in the end no one will buy their games anymore.
      Sersiously, if the industry is going to move to DRM like that I will give up gaming, or just buy independend anymore. It is not like it hurts if you stop gaming, or play your unplayed back catalog.
      It is just like giving up an old habit.

    2. Re:They don't have to do heavy lifting by judeancodersfront · · Score: 1

      They can just move parts of the game that are dependent upon user input but don't require a fast response time.

      I could actually care less about what they do. I have mostly switched to consoles and I rarely play Ubisoft games.

  46. SAAS is the future and you can thank pirates by judeancodersfront · · Score: 1

    and all their defenders here who spend their time making endless rationalizations for people that take the work of others without payment.

    If the pc didn't have sky high piracy rates then all games would just come on DVDs with securerom at the most. However due to the fact that most pc gamers don't pay for their games the publishers are constantly researching new ways to provide content that is difficult to pirate. For an open platform like the pc that means tying data to a server.

  47. AC2 DRM was just a prototype by judeancodersfront · · Score: 1

    and not a very well designed one. Wait until they start moving game code server side.

  48. Piracy mostly harms mid quality titles by LordZardoz · · Score: 1

    I am pretty sure that if I was able to ask every person who posted in this thread directly and in person, they would agree with the following statements.

    Piracy will not prevent a top quality game become a failure. People still pay for good games.
    Piracy is not the reason crappy games fail. Crappy games just wont be bought anyway.

    I suspect that the real effects of piracy are the following.

    First, it while it wont prevent something like Starcraft 2 from being a runaway hit, it will very possibly take a game that would be 7 / 10 which might have been modestly profitable, or at least break even, and turn it into a financial failure. This is bad simply because a failed game can kill a smaller game developer, and having more developers able to make a profit will mean more good games.

    The other thing that Piracy will do is that it will entirely negate the benefit of any heavy marketing campaign. A slick commercial and splashy billboard / magazine ads will not convince you to buy a game. They will convince you to try it. If you can try the game without buying it, you probably will.

    So where the publishers of games are getting hurt the most is on mid quality titles that are heavily marketed. In many cases, the marketing budget of a title will at least equal or exceed the cost of making it. This is especially true for licensed games.

    My take on this is that game developers do have a legitimate right to expect a fair chance to make a profit on the game, but the companies should probably look into something other then the typical DRM strategies to protect their IP rights.

    What many who pirate games seem to not understand is that you are not going to teach a multi-million dollar corporation any sort of lesson by announcing you will illegally download and use a product because you disagree with the DRM policies. A broken DRM tech only means that they will try another approach.

    END COMMUNICATION

  49. WTF has happened to the world? by n0nsensical · · Score: 1

    Where I come from, we willingly pay money for things we like even given the opportunity to get it for free. Because we want the creators to make a good living and make more of it! And they don't fuck us like bitches in return! I highly recommend anyone concerned with this just turn around, walk away, and spend your energy, and money, on doing something positive for someone who's not trying to fuck you like a bitch. Cause I dont like to get fucked by anyone except the Mrs! There's no point fighting or getting fucked by pricks in suits. There will always be pricks in suits and even if you beat these pricks there will be more pricks lining up to replace them. Until everyone stops playing their little games anyway.

  50. Unnecessary DRM cracked by Boomshadow · · Score: 1

    Good.

  51. "the actual hard work"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You are apparently discounting the many THOUSANDS of hours of ACTUAL hard work that were put into MAKING the game... a team of hundreds of people working full-time for YEARS. I'd just like to extend a friendly, personal Fuck You to all pirates out there.

    Its depressing that people work so hard to steal the things we make rather than just pay us a fair price for them or go without. We depend on getting paid to pay our mortgages, you know. Piracy really is the main reason that PC gaming is slowly dying -- its well known to all the publishers that its hard to make money on PC games and that 10:1 or 20:1 ratios of pirates to paying customers are common. (We can measure this from hits to our servers, its pretty depressing to see millions of people connecting to our servers on day one for a game that has only sold 100,000 copies at that time).

    People like SkidRow and the "community" that collected these database values and made the server emulator, are part of the problem, NOT the solution. Slashdot is so pro-piracy these days that its embarassing to even read the posts here.

  52. Oh, come on.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Piracy rates of 90% or even 95% do occur for hotly anticipated AAA releases. We've seen this first-hand.

    But nobody is claiming that ALL of those pirates will rush out and buy a copy if they can't steal it because of the DRM, obviously that is ridiculous.

    Notice that if even a small fraction (like 5 to 10%) of the pirates who are prevented from pirating, are willing to go out and buy it instead, then the game can sell substantially more copies at retail.

    Assume for a moment a 50% piracy rate (which is much lower than the actual rate for a game like Assassin's Creed 2 would be, I assure you). If you can convert 10% of those pirates into paying customers, you've just increased sales by 20%! Of course some fraction of your customers will also be off-put by the DRM, but that fraction is hopefully smaller than 20%. (In practice its quite small, and most of them seem to live on sites like Slashdot.)

    Anyway, I don't personally think that this restrictive DRM is a good idea at all, but you should consider it as a last-ditch effort by Ubisoft to salvage the market for PC games (i.e. try to convince people to actually pay for them) before they give up on it entirely.

  53. Two types of stealing by complacence · · Score: 2, Interesting
    1. Taking someone's work.
    2. Taking credit for someone's work.

    These people value skill and care about giving credit for it. They do not care about stealing a product while expressly leaving the credit where it's due. Their value system is contiguous and non-contradictory, hence not hypocritical.

  54. The old choice for software creators... by alfredos · · Score: 1

    This has been discussed ad nauseam, but like the guts of the Earth, it emerges as a volcano here or an earthquake there. I have worked as a programmer. I can feel the pain of the companies who see the product of their hard work being used for free because some people think it's too expensive (some people wouldn't pay even a cent, but that's pricing). I can understand what they do: Anti-piracing measures. DRM is not new in a sense: Key disks, parallel port keys, code cards and other software protection methods have been with us almost as long as the PC. But that is not the answer. Software protection is a nuisance for legitimate users and does not deter non-legitimate users. We have seen it even in company-critical software, like accounting or payroll; nevermind in games! What is the solution, if you ask me? I lay no claim to the universal solution but for many software products, I even dare say most software, pricing is the key. Some people does, but the lower the price point, the less problems. I'm not willing to pay $50 or more for a game. Or $500 for a single-employee business accounting software. But I would happily pay (or wouldn't bother piracing if you will) something that costs say $9.99 and comes with Right Thing Satisfaction Guarantee (TM). Maybe the pricing has been set so early in the spreadsheet that the suits won't change it no matter what. Or there are clever marketing guys that say that is the sweet spot. I don't know. I'd just bet a beer against them that they make more money at a lower price point. Same thing, incidentally, with music - but that's another story and must be told at some other time.

    1. Re:The old choice for software creators... by wintermute000 · · Score: 1

      Well put. I started to buy games after a long hiatus after seeing some of those insanely good steam sales deals. Heck sometimes I'm even tempted to pay full price, though thankfully that only happens once every two-three months lol.

      The convenience of steam is worth paying for esp in this day and age of endless patching. Have you ever tried to reinstall a game then realised to play multiplayer you need to manually hunt down four or five patches? aargh.

      also at the end of the day generic FPS shooter does not equal 90 bucks USD of value. What a joke.
      I'd be v interested in the stats for steam esp numbers during sales, and whether the price cuts + increased numbers of sales results in greater overall income.

      Build value into your DRM, lower your prices, people start paying. Another guy at work who was one of the hardcore piracy crowd went over to steam a few years ago and now he buys EVERYTHING through steam.

  55. Finally... by Ranma-sensei · · Score: 1

    ...I get to buy Assassin's Creed 2.

    I own only games I can play offline and without activation - if it means I have to crack the retail version, so be it! After all, I legally bought the game, and I want to still be able to play it whenever I feel the urge, even if that's ten years from now.

    Just for the record, I don't own any games I haven't bought in a retail box (I like to show them off).

    --
    Non-supporter of Online Activation and any other draconian DRM