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Study Sez Txt Msgs Make Kidz Gr8 Spellrz

Picknz writes "The Telegraph reports that researchers have found texting can improve literacy among pupils by giving them extra exposure to word composition outside the school day. According to the report, the association between spelling and text messaging may be explained by the 'highly phonetic nature' of the abbreviations used by children and the alphabetic awareness required for successfully decoding the words. 'It is also possible that textism use adds value because of the indirect way in which mobile phone use may be increasing children's exposure to print outside of school,' says the report. 'We are now starting to see consistent evidence that children's use of text message abbreviations has a positive impact on their spelling skills,' adds Professor Claire Wood. 'There is no evidence that children's language play when using mobile phones is damaging literacy development.'"

375 comments

  1. Writing by ShakaUVM · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I work on several writing projects involving technology. A really fascinating study showed that when you ask most kids if they write for fun, most of them will say no. If you then ask them how many text / email / IM / blog / etc., nearly everyone will answer in the affirmative. Teens don't see these kinds of things as "writing". Once you sort of get through to them that it is, it's like a lightbulb turns on in their heads, and they suddenly start getting engaged in English.

    In other words, while it's really easy to mock texting (tweets especially annoy me), I think that if modern teachers learn to take advantage of all the writing teens are actually doing, we could see a revolution in English skills.

    1. Re:Writing by bbqsrc · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It's certainly an under-appreciated art being able to fit a concise, well-developed argument into 140 characters, including a link and a bunch of tags.

      --
      Disagree != mod troll.
    2. Re:Writing by Nerdfest · · Score: 2

      I think tweets can help people learn to be more concise in their writing, but the benefits are greater if they don't use the usual 'texting' abbreviations. It's a great mental excercise to see if you can get the same thought across in fewer words or characters, or just more clearly

      Based on the number of mistakes with "then/than", "lose/loose", etc, I see from younger journalists and bloggers, I think spelling in general is getting worse, not better. I find it somewhat jarring when I actually see "lose" used properly.

    3. Re:Writing by digitig · · Score: 1

      I'm not convinced it's getting worse, actually. It's just that we're now seeing a lot of stuff written by people who wouldn't have written anything before, or if they did we wouldn't have seen it. Writing with misspellings and homophone substitution is an improvement in literacy compared to not writing at all.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    4. Re:Writing by clang_jangle · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Based on the number of mistakes with "then/than", "lose/loose", etc, I see from younger journalists and bloggers, I think spelling in general is getting worse, not better.

      Way worse! Especially the last decade, many people don't even know that "then" and "than" are different words, that "ironic" doesn't mean "odd or coincidental", and how about expressions like "for all intensive purposes"? And don't get me started on "orientate"...

      TFA is nonsense, written by an uneducated fool.

      --
      Caveat Utilitor
    5. Re:Writing by Sique · · Score: 1

      That's one of the wonderful results of all those Instant-On-services.

      Never in history have so many people written so much and read that many lines of text on a regular base. Which is a good sign.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    6. Re:Writing by Kral_Blbec · · Score: 5, Funny

      It's certainly an under-appreciated art being able to fit a concise, well-developed argument into 140 characters, including a link and a bun

      What do delicious baked goods have to do with anything?

    7. Re:Writing by Joce640k · · Score: 5, Funny

      It's a doggy dog world...

      --
      No sig today...
    8. Re:Writing by TapeCutter · · Score: 0

      "TFA is nonsense, written by an uneducated fool."

      I can only assume that people who can't see past common spelling/grammar mistakes must have comprehension skills similar to those found in a compiler.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    9. Re:Writing by 6Yankee · · Score: 1

      And "in the first instance" does not mean "first", damn it.

    10. Re:Writing by lxs · · Score: 4, Funny

      If you then ask them how many text / email / IM / blog / etc., nearly everyone will answer in the affirmative

      -Billy, how many texts do you send each day?

      -Absolutely!

    11. Re:Writing by Worthless_Comments · · Score: 0, Troll

      I think you mean "for all intents and purposes". You probably don't understand things because you don't even know what it is you're not understanding.

    12. Re:Writing by Thrasher308 · · Score: 1

      "I always put my panties in my pocket so I don't lose them", she said.

      --
      Thrasher
    13. Re:Writing by uneasyrider-taicho · · Score: 2

      I think you mean "for all intents and purposes". You probably don't understand things because you don't even know what it is you're not understanding.

      I know subtle nuances get lost online. I truly hope this is one of those cases.

    14. Re:Writing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      my kingdom for mod points...

      (posting anon to avoid -1 redundant mods)

    15. Re:Writing by Nocuous · · Score: 2

      Whoosh!

      The GP referred to "for all intensive purposes" because he sees that phrase, and HE knows the writer means "for all intents and purposes", but the writer does not.

      You failed to think even for a moment about what the GP said, so you jumped to an erroneous conclusion. I believe that kind of shallow thinking drives most of the poorly written online communication.

      I avoid grandiloquent phrasing whenever possible, because it doesn't add any value, and phrases like "for all intents and purposes" are usually worthless filler. If you use a phrase or word you don't understand, can't spell or construct correctly, you end up giving the impression to your audience that you're little dumber than is the case.

      --
      Don't take it personally, but I'm not going to read your pithy response to my post.
    16. Re:Writing by rdwulfe · · Score: 1

      He's pointing out how people misuse the phrase. I've seen people write out "for all intensive purposes" when people mean "for all intents and purposes". It's what happens when folks hear something, don't quite comprehend it, then decide they've got to use it, too.

    17. Re:Writing by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      "TFA is nonsense, written by an uneducated fool." I can only assume that people who can't see past common spelling/grammar mistakes must have comprehension skills similar to those found in a compiler.

      It's fine to extend yourself into editor mode for people who are new to the language, but what a joy it is to trade ideas with people and not have glaring errors break the flow of thought or worse, entirely confuse it.

    18. Re:Writing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The funny thing is that the phrase is actually "to all intents and purposes."

    19. Re:Writing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And one time I wrote 'for all intensive purposes' and meant exactly that, the solution was for intense purposes...

    20. Re:Writing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And don't get me started on "orientate"...

      "Orientate" drives me crazy, too. Unfortunately, it's in the dictionary with origins in the 1800s...

    21. Re:Writing by Kojiro+Ganryu+Sasaki · · Score: 1

      Also people writing "would of won" or "couldn't they of been more considerate?" and so on and so on... You can't throw a preposition randomly into a verb phrase...

    22. Re:Writing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you then ask them how many text / email / IM / blog / etc., nearly everyone will answer in the affirmative.

      "How many text/email/IM/blog do you write everyday."

      "Yes"

      Doesn't sound good to me.

    23. Re:Writing by bledri · · Score: 1

      ...especially the last decade, many people don't even know that "then" and "than" are different words...

      I know "then" and "than" are different words. I know the meanings of "there," "they're" and "their." Same with "through" and "threw." And yet sometimes I type the wrong one, presumably because I associate the sound of the word with what I'm typing. Having sinned myself, I try to cut people a little slack (though I also try to proofread what I write.)

      I blame Alanis Morissette for the confusion around irony. I hadn't heard "for all intensive purposes", but I'm not shocked. People use all sorts of expressions without any clue of their origins or original meaning. I'm not saying it's wonderful to misuse language, just that people learn language by speaking it with their peers and if enough people use it incorrectly - then the meaning of the word or expression changes. As a punctilious bastard it annoys me because I like that specificity, and subtlety of a word's denotations and connotations.

      The day I dread is Merriam-Webster adding "figurative" as a valid interpretation of "literal." I'll get very drunk that day...

      So what's wrong with "orientate?" The OED sites it as far back as 1849.

      --
      Some privacy policy Slashdot.
    24. Re:Writing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. Just stop it, perpetuator of ignorance and misinformation, You shit stirrer.

    25. Re:Writing by clang_jangle · · Score: 1

      It came up so I expressed my opinion. I don't go around correcting people or interrupting them to point out their gaffes in everyday conversation, but in this discussion it's perfectly on topic.

      --
      Caveat Utilitor
    26. Re:Writing by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      Hell, I find it pretty ironic when an anonymous pedant fucks up tense.

    27. Re:Writing by timeOday · · Score: 1

      The technicalities you're talking about don't matter. What does matter is getting your point across, which requires an understanding of how people will react to what you write (such as predicting how somebody could misinterpret the words). You can only gain that ability through experience and feedback from your audience, and texting is giving today's kids more of that than ever before. They'll be great writers because writing is once again a tool that's actually useful for communicating with people they care about.

    28. Re:Writing by Artraze · · Score: 2

      The problem here is that, until the last decade, most people just didn't write. Historically, writing was actually something reserved for the "intellectually elite". Most people didn't go to college and write books or anything you might read (i.e. anything outside private correspondence). Instead, they worked in factories, contruction, etc., and if you mentioned 'then' v 'than' in a bar they'd throw you out for your "2 dollar words".
      a
      So now you have all of the people in the would that "could care less" about 'than' writing forum posts, blogs and text messages. Of course they don't get it right... They don't care. A decade ago they simply wouldn't be writing.

      tl;dr We live in a society where the average level of intelligence required is beyond the average level of intelligence of humanity. People write poorly (and our education system looks like it's failing) because they just aren't equipped to work outside a factory but society isn't willing to accept that.

    29. Re:Writing by locallyunscene · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Based on the number of mistakes with "then/than", "lose/loose", etc, I see from younger journalists and bloggers, I think spelling in general is getting worse, not better.

      Way worse! Especially the last decade, many people don't even know that "then" and "than" are different words, that "ironic" doesn't mean "odd or coincidental", and how about expressions like "for all intensive purposes"? And don't get me started on "orientate"... TFA is nonsense, written by an uneducated fool.

      This comment is a perfect example of why we study things that are "conventional wisdom". The above poster has already made up his mind that kids today are poorer spellers due to this "newfangled communication technology" because of conventional wisdom. However the study referenced in the article showed the exact opposite correlation. Kids that were given cellphones did better than kids in the control group who weren't given cell phones.

      If the study had shown that the kids with cellphones did worse I'm sure the above poster and others would have been whining about "Why do we need to test this? Everyone knows it's true already!" It's sad that the above poster can't accept evidence contrary to his world view and that there are enough moderators out there to think this is "+5 Insightful". I suspect I need to get off their lawn.

    30. Re:Writing by tompaulco · · Score: 2

      The problem is that back in the days when the "average" person didn't write, the average person did at least read what the above average person wrote. So at least they were receiving exposure to proper grammar, spelling, and so forth. Now, everyone is immersed in examples of poor quality writing of all types, in what will likely become a downward spiraling feedback loop.

      In fact, I would argue that there is more communication coming from people of below average writing skills, and using technology that is grossly inefficient as a communications medium, which acts a s a catalyst to encourage poor writing.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    31. Re:Writing by milkmage · · Score: 1

      what difference do your spelling skills make if you use the wrong fucking word?

      that defin*A*tely irks the shit out of me.

      the misuse of to/too/two, their/they're/there, etc is the result of using sounds to spell words.. they all sound the same, therefore..

      According to the report, the association between spelling and text messaging may be explained by the “highly phonetic nature” of the abbreviations used by children and the alphabetic awareness required for successfully decoding the words.

      "Highly phonetic nature" is good for reading, not spelling. Hooked on Phonics might teach kids how to read, but it causes terrible spelling. Alphabetic awareness!? are you saying they didn't know what those little symbols on the buttons are before they picked up the phone? SMS shorthand is for the lazy. is it really that much effort to add a "y" and "o" before "u"

      BTW IMO, OMG, LOL AFAIK, IANAL, etc. can be construed as acronyms... one could argue those are acceptable.

      don't get me started on the frequent use of "like" used as a filler while your brain catches up to your mouth.

    32. Re:Writing by filthpickle · · Score: 1

      Don't the Limey's use that as standard? Orientate doesn't bother me nearly as much as "supposably". Maybe that's just a mid-western thing. The funny part to me is that when I try to correct people on that abomination...and I don't do it in front of anyone to make them look stupid...they almost invariably get defensive about it.

    33. Re:Writing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No no no. It's a (common in speech) subject elision:

      If you then ask how many [of them] text / email / IM / blog / etc.

    34. Re:Writing by milkmage · · Score: 4, Informative

      orientate is valid, it's British English (though often considered incorrect in the US)

      http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/orientate - variant of orient.

    35. Re:Writing by filthpickle · · Score: 1

      While I'm sure that there are lots of people that don't know the difference between any of those words...I gotta say that I mix them up for the same reason you give. A great deal of the typing process has been taken over by my hands and is almost completely subconscious. If I were writing it with a pencil I would never get it wrong...but if I am typing it I might mix them up because I am going so fast and so much is just my hands remembering patterns.

    36. Re:Writing by reboot246 · · Score: 1

      That may be, but I see mistakes by "professional" journalists and reporters in newspapers. We recently had the BBVA Compass Bowl played here in Birmingham. Sure enough, the headline called it "BVAA Compass Bowl". I'm sure the bank was not at all happy about that.

      A few years ago the same newspaper had a story on the front page about a typhoon and the large (72 point) headline called it a thypoon.

      Never depend on your computer's spell check function. Spelling takes practice and using your mind, not a computer's mind.

    37. Re:Writing by hedwards · · Score: 1

      It wasn't that long ago that homophone substitution as your main spelling mistake would qualify you to be a judge. However, when you start going beyond that and doing too much abbreviation you end up in a position where you may as well not be writing anything, because it's not really English anymore. And same goes for abbreviations in other languages. It might work well as a replacement for shorthand, but it isn't a reliable form of conveying information.

    38. Re:Writing by osu-neko · · Score: 1

      Way worse! Especially the last decade, many people don't even know that "then" and "than" are different words, that "ironic" doesn't mean "odd or coincidental", and how about expressions like "for all intensive purposes"? And don't get me started on "orientate"...

      In other words, the situation is exactly the same as it was in the 70s. I can't really attest to any earlier than that, but what you say was certainly as true in the 70s as it is today. You just didn't see it as much prior to email/etc.

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    39. Re:Writing by hedwards · · Score: 0

      You might want to look that one up. Ironic does indeed mean "coincidental" if you're going to complain about people's dubious grasp on language, it might make sense for you to look it up before looking like a dumb ass.

      I suppose you're also one of those people who refuses to acknowledge that literally also means virtually. As in I run into him literally all the time.

    40. Re:Writing by 0137 · · Score: 2

      why is it a problem, though? how often does the transposition of 'then' and 'than' produce actual ambiguity in communication? the same goes for orient and orientate. likewise for "intensive purposes" and other phrases having fixed meaning, at least insofar as they are used in a casual (non-didactic) context.

      i think the reason you perceive things as having 'been better' because in the past is less of the population was actually committing thought to the written word. that they are now can only be to our mutual advantage, unless that 'advantage' is simply elitism; 99% of everything will still be crap, and at least there are more eyes on it. the only problem i see here is your unmitigated gall in supposing your prescriptivist notion of language is a 'canary in a coal mine' for collaborative cultural achievement and enlightenment.

      i mean, if you want to rail on about the vulgar masses, just do it.

      don't try to hide the fact that you're just another aristocrat bemoaning the fact that the peons don't know the right fork to use.

    41. Re:Writing by hedwards · · Score: 1

      Given that he doesn't know what ironic means, I'm not so sure that he really knows that it's wrong. He might just have stumbled on it.

    42. Re:Writing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Asa a high-school teacher, I can empirically say that many kids can't differentiate between texting language and normal English. From that standpoint, it makes them terrible spellers.

    43. Re:Writing by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      I don't think you understood me. Teh erors lyke this maik reeding hard and thus thinking about what you're redding harder. I make exceptions for ESL folk, but if someone grew up with English, I expect them to use proper (British/American/Australian/Indian) English spelling and grammar or face my Grammar Nazi Wrath. Once they're writing intelligibly, I can communicate with them intelligently.

    44. Re:Writing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Childrens today are not edumacated learned enough good.

      And it's not just blogs written by teenagers. Errors are everywhere.
      http://www.tedberg.net/wp-images/bk_grammar.jpg

      When other players in online games write something that you can't even understand, there's a problem.

    45. Re:Writing by locallyunscene · · Score: 1

      -Billy, how many texts do you send each day?

      All of them!

    46. Re:Writing by kaizokuace · · Score: 1

      really, a kingdom? I'm sure any actual king would not say the same thing.

      --
      Balderdash!
    47. Re:Writing by germansausage · · Score: 1

      English is a tricky language, hard to get right, easy to get wrong.

      There are the word pairs that people mix up all the time like imply/infer, affect/effect, accept/except, altar/alter, principle/principal, roll/role. A special Canadian favourite is meridian, which many use instead of median to refer to the grass strip between opposite lanes of a divided highway.

      Then there are words that sound like they "ought to mean" one thing but actually mean something else. Most of these have all but lost their original meanings. momentarily was "for a brief instant in time" and not "in a moment", enormity meant a crime of great evil and not "big-ness". If I used enormity in its original meaning (I hesitate to say its correct meaning) not many people would understand.

      Oh, and one more thing, rain on your wedding day is unfortunate, not ironic.

    48. Re:Writing by b4upoo · · Score: 1

      Well, perhaps we have not had texting long enough to see the fruits in the postings of young people online. Currently we seem to have a sub human level of language skills in younger folks on the net. As a matter of fact it is sort of a sub human knowledge level of all sorts that is usually displayed.
                            I used to have an eccentric as head of the English department. The old man used to say that there were rarely two literate men alive at the same time. Then he did a demo by asking some unsuspecting junior to stand and describe the contrasts between lake period poetry in England, Poland and Greece. Obviously the student was sort of dead in the glare of the headlights. But the old guy made hos point. Literacy is rare in one language and culture. To be literate in the greater sense is next to impossible. Two have two literate men alive at the same time would be on the edge of mathematical absurdity.

    49. Re:Writing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you use a phrase or word you don't understand, can't spell or construct correctly, you end up giving the impression to your audience that you're little dumber than is the case.

      I'd make the same argument about using apostrophes. An omitted apostrophe looks like a simple typo, but an apostrophe that doesn't belong makes a writer look like they're trying to be smarter than they are. It's best to leave apostrophes out unless you really know where they belong (and where they don't belong).

    50. Re:Writing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Technically he had 160.

    51. Re:Writing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >It's certainly an under-appreciated art being able to fit a concise, well-developed argument into 140 characters, including a link and a bunch of tags.

      and that happens, does it? Not much, I suspect

    52. Re:Writing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is an art, but it is rare to see anything well-developed on Twitter.

    53. Re:Writing by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Americans use the preposition "for" in this idiom for good reason. The original form makes no sense in modern English. The meanings of prepositions have been formalized significantly since those words were originally used in a bill back in 1547, and as a result, some uses of those prepositions that would have made sense to someone at that time are confusing to a modern reader or listener.

      You wouldn't say that I work to the purpose of making money. That's very archaic. You would say that I work for the purpose of making money. You wouldn't say that you are building a bridge to the intent of making travel easier. You would say that you are building it with the intent of making travel easier, or maybe for the intent of making travel easier. (And realistically, these days, the noun "intent" is rather rare in non-formal writing, with most folks preferring the verb form.)

      It gets even worse when the phrase is preceded by "true", as it often is. In modern English, the definition of "true" when followed by the word "to" has drifted to mean something completely different. Being "true to" something means "faithful to" in modern English. Thus, only a person, not a fact, can be true to a purpose or to an intent. More importantly, when you say something is true "to/for all intents and purposes", you are not saying that a fact is "faithful to every intent and purpose". You are saying that it is correct for every intent and for every purpose.

      Thus, I would argue that "for all intents and purposes" is the more correct form because understanding the British idiom ("to all intents and purposes") requires either understanding an archaic usage of the word "to" or memorizing the meaning of the idiom, whereas the American expression ("for all intents and purposes") is inherently non-idiomatic; it does not require any specific knowledge to understand it.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    54. Re:Writing by lymond01 · · Score: 1

      Hood: And how long have you been a robber?

      Bandit: Four foot one, sir!

      Hood: Four foot one! Jolly, jolly good!

    55. Re:Writing by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

      Well, "supposably" seems to be a perfectly valid word. It expresses that the thing it's applied to can be supposed - as opposed to something that can't be supposed at all. I am aware that it's a fairly useless word but it does make sense.

      I am also aware that virtually everyone using the word does not think it means what I think it means.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    56. Re:Writing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That's why we need to get these kids back to the straightened arrow!

    57. Re:Writing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You might want to look that one up. Ironic does indeed mean "coincidental"

      You might want to take your own advice. From freedictionary.com

      ironic (-rnk) also ironical (-rn-kl) adj.
      1. Characterized by or constituting irony.
      2. Given to the use of irony. See Synonyms at sarcastic.
      3. Poignantly contrary to what was expected or intended: madness, an ironic fate for such a clear thinker.
      ironically adv.
      ironicalness n.
      Usage Note: The words ironic, irony, and ironically are sometimes used of events and circumstances that might better be described as simply "coincidental" or "improbable," in that they suggest no particular lessons about human vanity or folly. Thus 78 percent of the Usage Panel rejects the use of ironically in the sentence In 1969 Susie moved from Ithaca to California where she met her husband-to-be, who, ironically, also came from upstate New York. Some Panelists noted that this particular usage might be acceptable if Susie had in fact moved to California in order to find a husband, in which case the story could be taken as exemplifying the folly of supposing that we can know what fate has in store for us. By contrast, 73 percent accepted the sentence Ironically, even as the government was fulminating against American policy, American jeans and videocassettes were the hottest items in the stalls of the market, where the incongruity can be seen as an example of human inconsistency.

      irony (r-n, r-) n. pl. ironies
      1. a. The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning. b. An expression or utterance marked by a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning. c. A literary style employing such contrasts for humorous or rhetorical effect. See Synonyms at wit1.
      2. a. Incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs: "Hyde noted the irony of Ireland's copying the nation she most hated" (Richard Kain). b. An occurrence, result, or circumstance notable for such incongruity. See Usage Note at ironic.
      3. Dramatic irony.
      4. Socratic irony.

      literally also means virtually

      You're a retard if you think your abuse of the language contributes to the definition of anything but your social (and most likely economic) status.

    58. Re:Writing by jpapon · · Score: 1
      Writing is simply a means to communicate with others. If the reader understands what the writer was attempting to convey, then the text has completely fulfilled its purpose.

      Languages, especially English, are constantly evolving. Sure, you can put up resistance to the changes... but is that fight really worth wasting your time on? I assume you can see the parallels in technology, so I won't bother to point them out.

      Personally, I'm a phd student in Germany working with a Russian, Lithuanian, Turk, Scot, Frenchman, and of course Germans. We speak a bastardized version of English, but who really cares? We manage to communicate just fine! After all, English is really a creole. If you want to be a grammar Nazi, do it in a "static" language like French, which has a governing body which controls the evolution of the language (L'academie francaise).

      --
      -- Let us endeavor so to live that when we pass even the undertaker shall be sorry. -- M. Twain
    59. Re:Writing by jpapon · · Score: 1

      Brilliant. Simply Brilliant. +5

      --
      -- Let us endeavor so to live that when we pass even the undertaker shall be sorry. -- M. Twain
    60. Re:Writing by canadian_right · · Score: 1

      Those are common mistakes made in English writing, BUT, my kids write a lot more because of text messaging and, wait for it, fan fiction. My middle boy never uses internet abbreviations as he thinks they don't actually save any time and make the message harder to read. My daughter loves to write odd little stories involving anime characters.

      Just the fact that my kids do write every day makes me think the various text based communication methods are improving their writing.

      --
      Anarchists never rule
    61. Re:Writing by canadian_right · · Score: 1

      I disagree. Those 'technicalities' should be mastered if you want to write clear, easily understood prose. I have nothing against bending the rules for effect, but you have to know the rules before you can play with them.

      --
      Anarchists never rule
    62. Re:Writing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think it would be a better argument to say they are learning stenography... :P

    63. Re:Writing by Xyrus · · Score: 1

      Perhaps these researchers have never heard of Failbook.

      --
      ~X~
    64. Re:Writing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, hell, if it has a chance of making fantasy writers who can write concisely, I'm all for it.

      I mean seriously, the smallest unit of fantasy literature appears to be a trilogy, and even those are getting rare these days. It looks like it's more like 'Yeah, it was supposed to be a trilogy, but what the heck' or 'I'll just start writing and never stop'.

    65. Re:Writing by HungryHobo · · Score: 1

      Go back a bit more and simply being able to read silently and without moving your lips was unusual if not amazing.
      From QI, it was at least unusual enough that it was fit to mention though likely there were others like him.

      Ambrose (338-397, Bishop of Milan) appears to have been the first person in Europe who could read without moving his lips, according to St Augustine of Hippo

      When [Ambrose] read, his eyes scanned the page and his heart sought out the meaning, but his voice was silent and his tongue was still. Anyone could approach him freely and guests were not commonly announced, so that often, when we came to visit him, we found him reading like this in silence, for he never read aloud.

      On a slightly related note, Ambrose does have the distinction of having been appointed Bishop of Milan when he had yet to be baptised, and was then duly baptised, confirmed, ordained deacon, ordained priest and consecrated bishop within a week, which must be at least one of the rapidest promotions in church history.

    66. Re:Writing by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      He didn't say a kingdom, he said his kingdom. There is a huge difference.

      Honestly if I could trade something imaginary for anything I'd totally do it. I mean, I could always imagine a new kingdom couldn't I?

      It's like the guy who managed to get $5 for his air-guitar. Pretty sweet deal I think.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    67. Re:Writing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I could care less *ducks*

    68. Re:Writing by HungryHobo · · Score: 0

      given that I'm not a 90 year old blind man I actually find that sentence almost as easy to read as the rest of your post.

      News flash:
      English has no standards body so there is no such thing as "proper" english outside of grammer nazis fantasies.
      there is only english as the majority use it.

      The oxford english dictionary is not a standards body, it has no authority to decide what is and is not english.
      If a majority of the population starts using "then" and "than" interchangably ,"teh" rather than "the" or "lyke " rather than "like" and the oxford english dictionary fails to keep up with changes in how the language is being used then the OED is simply wrong.

      Bonus points for "lyke" since it would just be reverting to and archaic spelling of the word.
      hint: crotchety old pedants of the past were probably complaing about all these upstart kids using "like" instead of the the propper "lyke".

      sorry to burst your pedantic bubble.

    69. Re:Writing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your just a looser. Its ironic that I dint finish high school and can right hella better then you.

    70. Re:Writing by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      That's what clang_jangle was doing (and what you have so nicely spelled out here). It should have been quite clear after "orientate", but it was apparently lost on both Worthless_Comments and you.

      Clang_jangle clearly assumed you guys would be smart enough to figure out that he was saying "for all intensive purposes" is not correct in the context in which it is generally used, and that the correct saying is "for all intents and purposes". Really, it's a well known saying, it should not have been this hard.

      What I am doing now is exactly the same thing as what uneasyrider-taicho, who you replied to, was attempting to do. Even his not-so-subtle statement was misunderstood, which is sad.

      Since subtle (and not-so-subtle) nuance (and not all that nuanced) seems to be completely lost on you (and Worthless_Comments), I have attempted to spell things out for you. I don't hold out much hope that you will understand. (In case you didn't get it, I am insulting your intelligence here. It's not as fun to spell it out, but I'm really not sure how much help you need to understand these things, so I'm covering my bases, so to speak.)

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    71. Re:Writing by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      The really funny thing is that no it is not.

      "For" has a specific usage, and it applies in this case. In fact, even "for all intensive purposes" is correct grammatically. The problem is that phrase has a very different meaning than "for all intents and purposes", and it is often used in the wrong context. This makes the speaker sound like a complete idiot.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    72. Re:Writing by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      I think you need a new dictionary, as irony has nothing to do with coincidence:

      irony
      n pl -nies
      1. the humorous or mildly sarcastic use of words to imply the opposite of what they normally mean
      2. an instance of this, used to draw attention to some incongruity or irrationality
      3. incongruity between what is expected to be and what actually is, or a situation or result showing such incongruity

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    73. Re:Writing by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      Damnit.

      Your dictionary is fine, my posting is not.

      I meant to post to one below yours.

      Now I've ruined it.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    74. Re:Writing by johnsnails · · Score: 1

      I think tweets can help people learn to be more concise in their writing, but the benefits are greater if they don't use the usual 'texting' abbreviations. It's a great mental excercise to see if you can get the same thought across in fewer words or characters, or just more clearly Based on the number of mistakes with "then/than", "lose/loose", etc, I see from younger journalists and bloggers, I think spelling in general is getting worse, not better. I find it somewhat jarring when I actually see "lose" used properly.

      I spent a good 6 months with a broken phone where only a handful of the keys worked texting my gf lovey-dovey sms's using a plethora of symbols and abbreviations. Was great fun using my imagination and her having to decrypt the sms. Not it was not just (.)(.) Unfortunately I was not gave at the time to do so.

    75. Re:Writing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who cares? It's just a joke

    76. Re:Writing by i.r.id10t · · Score: 1

      Modern haiku

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
    77. Re:Writing by Nocuous · · Score: 1

      Given that he doesn't know what ironic means, I'm not so sure that he really knows that it's wrong. He might just have stumbled on it.

      I don't know whether he understands the most widely accepted meaning of "ironic", and neither do you. What he actually said was;

      "ironic" doesn't mean "odd or coincidental"...

      And it doesn't. The heart of the meaning of incongruity is that "the surface meaning and the underlying meaning of what is said are not the same" (I used Wikipedia, because this post is not a school research assignment or periodical article. I think it's correct.) This complaint is similar to a usage that annoys me, when young people use "random" to mean "strange, odd, or inappropriate". This is rampant.

      In context, the poster obviously understood the intended phrase for "for all intensive purposes" was "for all intents and purposes".

      I apologize for being a pedant about this, but language and meaning matter to me, and a thing is true, or it's not. It's obvious to me what the poster meant, and it pissed me off a little that someone sniped at him based on negligible reading comprehension.

      --
      Don't take it personally, but I'm not going to read your pithy response to my post.
    78. Re:Writing by Arran4 · · Score: 1

      I think with greater exposure to poor quality writing that people would learn why it is bad. Then actually attempt to communicate better. :)

    79. Re:Writing by Rinnon · · Score: 1

      It's sad that the above poster can't accept evidence contrary to his world view and that there are enough moderators out there to think this is "+5 Insightful". I suspect I need to get off their lawn.

      Welcome to the Internet: where the opinion you already have is the correct one.

    80. Re:Writing by arun84h · · Score: 1

      It's a doggy dog world...

      I realized this from the gecko.

    81. Re:Writing by DinDaddy · · Score: 1

      You've honed in on the problem very concisely . . .

    82. Re:Writing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is considered correct if the meaning is to point yourself to the East. If, however you mean to train someone on how to do something, it is orient.
      So it is possible to get oriented on orientating without a compass.

    83. Re:Writing by hkz · · Score: 2

      Viola!

    84. Re:Writing by myoparo · · Score: 1

      Phonetic spelling is usually the norm in languages that use alphabets for writing. If phonetic spellings are incorrect in English then that means the English writing system is flawed. Do you think people honestly confuse the words to/too and two? Have you corrected anyone while they're talking that they used the word "too" instead of "two"? I highly doubt it.

      These kids who use "phonetic" spellings in their text messages are actually using the alphabet very similar to how we were taught in school. Does the word "you" not sound like the letter "u"? As ridiculous as it looks, it is correct in a way.

      The writing system is the problem. Not the people. If you don't believe in phonetic spelling, then we should just not teach the alphabet and have our children simply memorize the spellings of words. That is where English writing is headed.

    85. Re:Writing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you then ask them how many text / email / IM / blog / etc., nearly everyone will answer in the affirmative

      -Billy, how many texts do you send each day?

      -Absolutely!

      I know you're being facetious, but I read it more like "If you ask them how many (of them) text / email..." and I'm fairly certain that was the intention.

    86. Re:Writing by grimdawg · · Score: 1

      But, you started a sentence with a conjunction.

      !!!

      --
      There are 10 kinds of people in this world: those who understand binary, and nine other kinds of people.
    87. Re:Writing by milkmage · · Score: 1

      whatever the root cause is.. here's a huge fucking list of shit people get confused

      http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/errors.html

      yes, I have seen (in writing) people getting to/too confused and there/their whether or not is a typo or ignorance is irrelevant, I SEE what is wrong, I don't know what THERE thinking.

      no, not in conversation because they all sound the same.. and look up Hooked on Phonics - sued for false advertising, they don't even use that name anymore - because Hooked on Phonics is a damaged brand.

      U is not a word.. the definintion of U and YOU do not match.

    88. Re:Writing by myoparo · · Score: 1

      People would not confuse so many things if our English writing system were logical and consistent. Right now it is chaotic and it is the primary reason people get words "confused". This is why people make so few "mistakes" in speech but so many when writing.

      I SEE what is wrong, I don't know what THERE thinking.

      I know you know the difference between "there/their" and "they're/they are", but why did you make that mistake there? Unless you did it on purpose, it is because our written system is supposed to be phonetic, but is in fact some kind of weird hybrid. Words with the same sound should have the same spelling, regardless of meaning.

      This is a problem that we shouldn't have in English because it hinders writing. Unfortunately reform will likely never happen in any of our lifetime.

      Letters of the alphabet represent sounds of spoken language. The letter "u" in English is taught to sound like IPA /ju/ so technically "u" should be acceptable as a substitute for "you". Actually, it's phonetically more accurate. Anyway, it's all nitpicking because English will not see a change and will keep these antiquated and legacy spellings for many generations to come.

    89. Re:Writing by franki.macha · · Score: 1

      ``Orientate'' is considered perfectly correct in some dialects.

    90. Re:Writing by HJED · · Score: 1

      I don't think you understood me. Teh erors lyke this maik reeding hard and thus thinking about what you're redding harder. I make exceptions for ESL folk, but if someone grew up with English, I expect them to use proper (British/American/Australian/Indian) English spelling and grammar or face my Grammar Nazi Wrath. Once they're writing intelligibly, I can communicate with them intelligently.

      Interestingly enough I don't actually find that harder to read and I don't read a lot of stuff like that. I do however find it irritating when people forgot words such as 'the' and 'a'.
      It is however necessary to do some abbreviation and phonetic spelling in SMSs/twitter in order to get information into one message.

      --
      null
    91. Re:Writing by HJED · · Score: 1
      ironic(iron¦ic)
      adjective
      • using or characterized by irony:his mouth curved into an ironic smile
      • happening in a way contrary to what is expected, and typically causing wry amusement because of this:[with clause] :it was ironic that now everybody had plenty of money for food they couldn't obtain it because everything was rationed

      -Oxford Dictionary

      --
      null
    92. Re:Writing by HJED · · Score: 1

      It expresses that the thing it's applied to can be supposed - as opposed to something that can't be supposed at all.

      Wouldn't that be supposable'?
      Also Oxford Dictionary search

      --
      null
    93. Re:Writing by HJED · · Score: 1

      Interestingly enough 'then' and 'than' are often pronounced slightly differently by many native speakers, although the difference is very hard to hear and I also often make this mistake. I think it is mostly because their meanings in common use are reasonably similar and because it is often misspelled by overs so the habit is picked up.

      --
      null
    94. Re:Writing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ur tl;dr is tl;dr

    95. Re:Writing by kaizokuace · · Score: 1

      ugh i want an air guitar!

      --
      Balderdash!
    96. Re:Writing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Slashdot should do one better than the media and wait to report on this until the actual journal article has been published.

    97. Re:Writing by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

      I am aware that the term is not found in the dictionary; it merely makes sense according to the rules by which words are constructed. (Of course it's still useless, which is why nobody uses it, excluding those who mean "supposedly".)

      Also, -le and -ly do not interfere with each other as they are used in different contexts. Since we were talking about the -ly form that's what I used.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    98. Re:Writing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In other words, while it's really easy to mock texting (tweets especially annoy me), I think that if modern teachers learn to take advantage of all the writing teens are actually doing, we could see a revolution in English skills.

      That's because writing is not the same as Writing, just like the manner of speech we use is not the same thing as Speech and Debate.
      Most kids don't "hate writing". What they hate is Compositional writing, or being forced to write about stuff they don't care about, or when they don't feel like doing it. It's not any different than running- many kids will say they hate running, but light their pants on fire and they WILL run.

      Really all this shows is that (surprise!) people who spend more time looking at words tend to be better at reproducing them than people who don't.

      And before someone tries to claim that this is a surprise because people spell stuff "wrong" in text messaging, I'll point out that people aren't spelling things "wrong" they're using a non-stadardized form of shorthand.

      So what this article should really be titled is "Kids who spend most of their time writing shorthand are better spellers than kids who don't write much at all." Duh.

    99. Re:Writing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't let me get started about those who can't put the "u" in colour, or keep on ending words as "ize" instead of "ise" and don't understand that "orientate" is correct English.

      I should note that this study was an "English" study, and so studied English and not American. They should go around burning all copies of Webster's and give all you yanks a proper copy of the Oxford English to teach you how to spell properly ;)

    100. Re:Writing by tkprit · · Score: 1

      Maybe, but imho the kids who can't differentiate between "ur" and "your" in a class assignment wouldn't have been the best student 20 years ago, either (ie, before prolific txting). My kids use the abbreviations in txts and FB, but when writing anything for school, they use the correct spellings (because they give a shit about getting a decent grade).

      (Note also some kids might write "This was a gr8 example of irony..." in an otherwise decent essay just to drive the teacher insane, LOL!)

    101. Re:Writing by Macgrrl · · Score: 1

      I suspect what you are actually seeing is the lack of an editor sitting between the primary writer and the audience.

      --
      Sara
      Designer, Gamer, Macgrrl in an XP World
    102. Re:Writing by aquila.solo · · Score: 1

      But would you give up your kingdom for it?

    103. Re:Writing by aquila.solo · · Score: 1

      ...called it a thypoon.

      But, there ith no thypoon!

    104. Re:Writing by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1
      Perhaps the people who use "whatev" spelling don't understand, but use of correct spelling is somewhat like manners. They give you a structure in which to operate, and they can tell you about the person you are interfacing with. While manners and protocol can be taken to extremes, it still help to know what the other person's response means.

      Looser and loser? So it's okay to use the first when meaning the second, as long as enough people know what your talking about? Now what do you do when you need to make a knot less tight - do you "make the knot loser"? or does that mean you are ordering some unfortunate to make a knot? It's kind of odd to see people on /. accepting of any old spelling. Maybe that's why some of our programming isn't working. Mike Judge has it right - I'm beginning to think the movie "Idiocracy" is the act of a prophet.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    105. Re:Writing by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1
      It's a problem because word do mean something. If your misspellings are okay, if you use a word that means the opposite of what the generally accepted meaning is, and another person takes it at face value - is it their fault? Then we must accept everyone's spelling and context? Sounds like pure chaos.

      To me, this has nothing to do with the good old days, or yelling at people to keep of my lawn, it has everything to do with the ability to express ourselves, and to be able to understand what people are writing. The idea of a person being able to communicate with others isn't elitism, it's pretty much common sense. Were there people in the good old days that were the equivalent of what we're discussing? Oh, hell yes! I grew up in the 70's with some folks who had major troubles communicating, both verbal and written. And sadly but predictably enough, they settled to the bottom.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    106. Re:Writing by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1
      Fruits of texting? It's a great way for young people to cause horrific auto accidents without getting drunk.

      Seems some of them not only have sub human language skills, but sub-human intelligence.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    107. Re:Writing by kaizokuace · · Score: 1

      If I had a kingdom, I would be fuckin rich and buy all the air guitars I want! I would then go on an Excellent Adventure.

      --
      Balderdash!
    108. Re:Writing by aquila.solo · · Score: 1

      Righteous! Say "Hi" to So-crates for me, dude.

    109. Re:Writing by FuzzyDave · · Score: 1

      Stop being so textist!

    110. Re:Writing by HJED · · Score: 1

      Manners often depend on the social context, for example in a posh restaurant it is considered rude to eat a burger with your hands, but not in MacDonalds.

      It is becoming the same with grammar in some cases (SMS, IM, some uses of Facebook and twitter) it is ok to use incorrect spelling/grammar on others (E.g school, work, /.) it is not. This has always existed in the spoken word (E.g. you speak diffidently in a bar then in your place of work, probably using different grammar).

      It is also due to different socioeconomic classes and cultures which are now writing a lot more then before, due to the rise of the net (as other posters have said).The city watch would not have spoken the same as the Lords and Ladys

      --
      null
  2. I am glad to be a by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    grammar Nazi.

    1. Re:I am glad to be a by nyctopterus · · Score: 1

      Sentence fragment!

    2. Re:I am glad to be a by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      It is grammar Nazis and spelling Nazis that really turn people off on English and writting.

      You argument must be flawed because it has spelling mistakes or some of the grammar is off. Type of thinking has put many smart people into avoiding academic methodology in their lives. As they are just a bunch of closed minded dipwads.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    3. Re:I am glad to be a by Pharmboy · · Score: 1

      Not if you read the subject line as part of his/her complete sentence.

      --
      Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
    4. Re:I am glad to be a by tm2b · · Score: 1

      I won't be a grammar Nazi until they give me a Luftwaffe.

      --
      "It is our blasphemy which has made us great, and will sustain us, and which the gods secretly admire in us." - Zelazny
    5. Re:I am glad to be a by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is grammar Nazis and spelling Nazis that really turn people off on English and writting.

      You argument must be flawed because it has spelling mistakes or some of the grammar is off. Type of thinking has put many smart people into avoiding academic methodology in their lives. As they are just a bunch of closed minded dipwads.

      writting? What exactly is a "type of thinking".

      Please, try to learn how to write your language before criticizing. There are those who actually want people to understand what they are trying to convey, instead of pushing fragmented thoughts of some asswad like yourself.

    6. Re:I am glad to be a by Kneo24 · · Score: 1

      I don't grammar Nazi far too often anymore. The only time when I do is when I am having an absolutely difficult time trying to decipher the gibberish that someone had written. Poo poo on "grammar Nazi's" all you want, but they do sometimes have a valid reason. Wouldn't it be better if people could actually convey their messages in a fashion that people can actually read?

      On the other hand nit-picking about every little infraction is downright annoying. Minor punctuation and spelling mistakes here or there should not be a huge deal.

    7. Re:I am glad to be a by Kneo24 · · Score: 1

      Or maybe they're just saying they're glad to be a sentence fragment!

    8. Re:I am glad to be a by Nocuous · · Score: 2

      Type of thinking has put many smart people into avoiding academic methodology in their lives. As they are just a bunch of closed minded dipwads.

      The first sentence above is flawed, and made me read it twice before I understood what you meant, because you left off "This" at the beginning of the sentence. That only took a fraction of a second, but it was still jarring. The awkward phrasing of the second sentence above, and the use of an ad hominem, non-descriptive slang pejorative gives the impression that either you are not well educated, or didn't care enough about what you were writing to use common grammar and descriptive words.

      In this case, it's not hard to understand what you were trying to say, but I estimate 50% of communication I see online contains significant grammar and spelling mistakes, and around 10% is so poorly written that meaning is actually lost.

      Because this is Slashdot, here's my car analogy; we need everyone to stop at stop signs, every time. Even though hardly any of the "rolling stops" will result in an accident, some will, and as more people ignore the law, their careless driving will cause more accidents.

      It's also true that poor spelling and grammar make you seem dumber than you are, and yes, your views will not be taken as seriously. As long as the majority of educated people react this way, you will suffer mild discrimination for it. I think that's good.

      --
      Don't take it personally, but I'm not going to read your pithy response to my post.
    9. Re:I am glad to be a by filthpickle · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure he meant 'this type of thinking'...and I'm pretty sure that you knew that too. You did do a pretty good job of proving the point he was making though.

    10. Re:I am glad to be a by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I won't be a grammar Nazi until they give me a Luftwaffe.

      More like Luftkomma!

    11. Re:I am glad to be a by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While you have a point, it is a little difficult to take a person seriously when they consistently misuse your/you're.

    12. Re:I am glad to be a by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 2

      Not really.

      People who do not communicate effectively are naturally less likely to be taken seriously in a written argument. Bad writing of any kind seriously distracts from the point you are trying to make, making your communication (and argument) weaker. I can usually get around it just fine, but there are still a number of cases where I can't stand to read someone's post simply because they couldn't bother to use any punctuation, or they decided that their entire post should be one big, run-on sentence.

      Spelling mistakes I care less about, but fragments are especially bad. Native English speakers might realize that by "Type of thinking" the GP meant "This type of thinking", but what if a non-native reader came across that? They'd either scratch their head for a half hour trying to figure it out or just give up and ignore the argument. People who understand what you meant to say will almost certainly (and usually involuntarily) think less of your opinion for the simple fact that you sound like an idiot (note that this has absolutely no bearing on the actual argument).

      Good writing is critical for effective communication. Frankly, in my opinion the GGP's point was severely damaged by the errors in his post. Had it been flawless, the point could only be argued on the merits. Instead the GP was able to come back with a "you're clearly just an idiot" attack, and you in turn had to defend him. This pulled me off the original post as well, simply to disagree with you.

      Had the post been communicated effectively none of these distractions would have taken place, and we would simply be discussing whether or not the grammar nazi's add any value to the discussion.

      You might think I disagree with the GGP, but I actually agree with him in principle. My point, however, is that arguments are not won with pure logic. If you are going to make an argument, it is best not to paint a giant bulls-eye on your back by committing serious and obvious grammatical mistakes.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    13. Re:I am glad to be a by filthpickle · · Score: 1

      point taken

  3. Eye agri wit tee art-tickle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Eye agri wit tee art-tickle
    txtin maid mi an eksellent spellir

  4. I call horseshit by echucker · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Phonetics can also make horrible spellers. Our school had a phonetics program called ITA (a US variation on the UK ITA system)when I was in grade school. It made pretty good readers out of kids, but crappy spellers, because they got used to the conventions of the phonetics program, and not actual grammar / spelling rules. Years after getting out of the system, I still saw high school seniors in honors programs who couldn't spell worth a damn.

    1. Re:I call horseshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even without using the phonetics concept, I have a terrible time with spelling. Even simple and relatively common words cause problems. I am 40 and I've been a very successful in different fields. An electronics technician, a nuclear reactor operator, and more recently in IT where I've worked my up to a senior network engineer at a top 10 law firm. A lot of people assume spelling and grammar are key indicators of overall intelligence but there has to be some explanation as to why some people have such a hard time with it. For me, things like science, math, programming, and complex processes are a breeze to comprehend and learn, spelling and history are very hard.

    2. Re:I call horseshit by Tridus · · Score: 1

      I was in a school that was taught word recognition and completely ignored phonetics. While that made for decent spelling, it also caused most of the students to be completely incapable of pronouncing any word they hadn't heard someone else say.

      I'm STILL trying to get past the damage that caused.

      --
      -- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
    3. Re:I call horseshit by digitig · · Score: 1

      Actually they can spell just fine, just not the variety of English that we use. This is how language evolves.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    4. Re:I call horseshit by MatthewCCNA · · Score: 1

      This is a definite limitation of phonics biased reading for some people, I learned to read with phonics and my spelling is terrible. When I was in grade 8 I received a standardized test that was designed to determine the spelling and reading comprehension acres the province. I scored 98% in reading comprehension which was rated at a university level and 2% on the spelling section which was rated as grade a grade 4 level. My spellcheck has suggested corrections for 9 words in this post.

      --
      "He is so stupid. And now back to the wall!" Moe Szyslak
    5. Re:I call horseshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Acres" sounds nothing like "across". "E" never sounds like "o". Words like, "are" and "our" sound much closer to each other than "acres" and "across". Are you sure you just aren't taking the necessary time to proof-read?

    6. Re:I call horseshit by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

      > This is how language evolves.

      Or devolves.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    7. Re:I call horseshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm still trying to get over the fact that I was taught to spell by "Sound it out, and spell it like you think."

      You would think if the student asks how something should be spelled when writing, that the teacher would tell the student... but ooohhh no.

    8. Re:I call horseshit by myoparo · · Score: 1

      Don't be so quick to blame people that make spelling errors. The spelling system we currently use for English is the problem because it is poorly suited for representing the sounds of our language. In most of the world's languages, the spelling of a word can almost always be correctly derived from the sound alone and vice versa. These languages have a writing system in which the spoken language can be represented accurately. It is easy to forget that spoken language is the base for writing and not the other way around. It is quite possible for an illiterate person to be as articulate as his educated counterparts, despite his not being able to spell anything at all.

      Back to what I was saying-- our system of writing in English is inconsistent, flawed and outdated as it does not represent the sounds of our language well. This is why the "Spelling Bee" is nearly exclusive to the English language and very rare to find for other languages.

      We are very used to spelling words with little regard to how the words actually sound. Here are just a few examples of (widely tolerated) inconsistencies in English spelling:

      laughter, manslaughter, man's laughter: all 3 should logically have a similar sound but do not
      where, wear, ware, hair: these should have a different vowel sound but they generally don't.
      two, to, too: again, based on spelling these should sound different
      pain, lane, feign: again, same sound different spelling

      A few spelling inconsistencies seems minor until you think about how important the spell checker is today and how obsessed we are as a whole with spelling. Expressing our thoughts clearly is more important than memorizing artificial and inaccurate representations of our language. If it weren't for our archaic spelling system, we'd be able to focus more on that.

    9. Re:I call horseshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Phonetics can also make horrible spellers. It made pretty good readers out of kids, but crappy spellers, because they got used to the conventions of the phonetics program, and not actual grammar / spelling rules. Years after getting out of the system, I still saw high school seniors in honors programs who couldn't spell worth a damn.

      So these "pretty good" readers were only mislead because they did not have a thorough grounding in grammar early on in school? And this being so was the only thing that lead to their inability to spell and write the language?

      The rules about grammar and spelling in the English language have become so broken that grinding them into a student at the early grade school level will only lead to a conflicted impression about how one actually communicates in English. There is nothing wrong with teaching from a basis of phonetics at first if grammar and spelling are also included. SLOWLY.

      I am dyslexic and find the French rules about grammar and spelling easier to comprehend than the pedantic, contradictory ones I learned in English. N'est pas? Je crois qu'il en soit ainsi.
      Phonetics is not the answer but it was a standard part of teaching many moons ago when I went to school. This was when the strap was still commonly used!

      Like most tools, the way it is used with other tools is most important, if you desire to achieve the greatest effect possible.
      In short, phonetics as a tool can only be judged by tempering it with other tools and if in turn, it is not used in a hot headed single minded manner!
      Good teachers know this, bad ones abuse it. If it were not for the fact that I had great teachers that understood these facts, my grammar and spelling skills could never have allowed me to become capable of posting this intelligently.

      Those teachers and arm chair educators that today would do away completely with the usage of any phonetics are 'throwing the baby out with the bath water' and make me sick to my stomach. Worse they do a terrible disservice to the dedicated people who teach young children!

    10. Re:I call horseshit by M8e · · Score: 2

      > This is how language evolves.

      Or devolves.

      Or maybe just volves.

    11. Re:I call horseshit by multipartmixed · · Score: 2

      You need to read more.

      Reading is key to spelling. Read, read, read, read. Read 6 or 7 books a week. Reading Slashdot doesn't count.

      That is the very best way to become a good speller.

      --

      Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
    12. Re:I call horseshit by myoparo · · Score: 0

      Language does not devolve, but that's a topic for a different time.

      What we are talking about is the English writing system, which does not accurately represent the sounds of the English language. This is why spelling errors are so prevalent in English but NOT other languages. This is why the spelling bee is mainly an English-language-only competition. This is also why a person writing phonetically in English is perceived as unintelligent, even if his written representation of the language is more accurate.

      In English writing, stilted and archaic spellings are preferred even if the spelling has almost nothing to do with the word's actual sound.

    13. Re:I call horseshit by Kilrah_il · · Score: 4, Interesting

      On the flip side, I am now trying to learn sign language, and our teacher once told us that deaf people never make spelling mistakes, probably because they don't have the "phonetic bias". They just learn how a word should be written, with no connection to how it sounds. For them 'ph' and 'f' are entirely different and they never mix them up.

      --
      Whenever in an argument, remember this.
    14. Re:I call horseshit by Kilrah_il · · Score: 0

      I actually had to read the parent post twice to find the "acres". :) Evidently reading may not always help.

      --
      Whenever in an argument, remember this.
    15. Re:I call horseshit by Kilrah_il · · Score: 1

      In most of the world's languages, the spelling of a word can almost always be correctly derived from the sound alone and vice versa.

      ???
      Are you talking about French? I am sure there are other examples as well. I am a Hebrew speaker and I can tell you there is the same problem in Hebrew, as well, even if to a somewhat lesser degree. The thing is, that languages evolve (or whatever you want to call it) over time. That means that two letter (or letter combinations) that once sounded differently now sound the same. In Hebrew you have Tet and Taf which both sound nowadays like T, but originally the former was a T and the latter a Th.
      Once those letters sound the same, spelling mistakes ensue.

      --
      Whenever in an argument, remember this.
    16. Re:I call horseshit by myoparo · · Score: 0

      Emphasis on the "most" in most of the world's languages. Besides English, French is also notorious for not being phonetic.

      Sounds in all languages change over time, but luckily those sound changes are very regular and the spellings of words, even if unchanged over time, remain fairly accurate even if not always perfect. I think Spanish might be a good example of this. English's writing system is worse than most when it comes phonetic accuracy.

      Hebrew I am not too familiar with, but if I know my history right it was essentially brought back as a spoken language after thousands of years of not being spoken. That is a very rare accomplishment (Hebrew is the only one) and that makes is very unique amongst today's languages!

    17. Re:I call horseshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have never been fired or let go. I move on because I get bored. Our family maintains almost no debt and we live well within our income so my wife and I can both afford to quit and start over in something else with little impact on our short term finances. She worked in retail, then a chip fab, moved on to a travel agent and now she in an insurance agent. For me, nuclear power and associated nuclear and radiological work (either plant operation, plant maintenance, or the radiological controls) is all shift work and the work force is nomadic. There is a lot of moving around the country on per diem and either operating or performing maintenance depending on what plants are operating and when. I did not want to do that any more. There are radiological control jobs that are not directly related to nuclear power plants and they are not shift work but that was boring as well. I have some friends that work and the NRC and I gave that some thought as well but I had in interest in "computers" and I went that route instead. I started working at ISP's and moved on to larger and larger companies. The pay sucked until maybe 5 years ago and now just over 10 years later, I am losing my interest in that as well. My next job will be something outside busting my ass doing manual labor or maybe working at Wal-Mart as a door greeter and I'll fill my time with hobbies. If you don't want to compete with the Jones, you have some flexibility and you can do what you want to do. None of that really matters though. The point is I have a hard time with spelling and grammar but not other disciplines.

    18. Re:I call horseshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > This is how language evolves.

      Or devolves.

      Or maybe just volves.

      u win it. that r funy.

    19. Re:I call horseshit by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I learned to read phonetically and I am one of the best spellers I know. You have to couple it with a great deal of reading (at least that worked in my case) because you need to train your brain with the shapes of the words as they are intended to be written. That gives you a set of patterns to use in later recognition as a fitness function to evaluate spelling. In order to abbreviate words well, you need to have some idea of the phonetics involved so that you can construct a short word which adequately resembles the original when you just pretend it's Polish or Czech and attempt to pronounce it straight.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    20. Re:I call horseshit by Culture20 · · Score: 1
      I blame the French. Take an etymology course and learn word history, and you'll know why we have this unsuited system.

      laughter, manslaughter, man's laughter: all 3 should logically have a similar sound but do not

      Actually, laughter and "man's laughter" rhyme completely. Your beef is between slaughter and laughter, but the difference between manslaughter and "man's laughter" has engendered many a man's laughter over the years. Why remove such a rich source of wordplay from a language?

    21. Re:I call horseshit by digitig · · Score: 1

      It adapts to a changing environment. That's evolution.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    22. Re:I call horseshit by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      English needs to be fixed. The language is a nightmare to spell in, none of the rules apply 100%, etc.

    23. Re:I call horseshit by hackstraw · · Score: 1

      I haven't had to worry about spelling since I was in grade school. Since then spell checkers have done my spelling for me. I can't be the only one. I can't think of an occasion where I would be using written text without using a computer. If this were true, then I would also assume that the writing would have to be in longhand, and trust me, my handwriting is much worse than my spelling.

    24. Re:I call horseshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please shut up...every time I have to read one of your posts it makes me physically ill.

    25. Re:I call horseshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Or devolves.

      You mean such as thinking "devolves" is the opposite of "evolves" combined with the misconception that evolution implies improvement?

    26. Re:I call horseshit by Kilrah_il · · Score: 1

      Since I admit I am also not familiar with many other languages, I do not know if the "most" is correct or not. Both of us gave anecdotal evidence... which is usually enough by /. standards :)
      Regarding Hebrew: the fact that it has been resurrected, is a fact that many say helped it retain many of its ancient characteristics, and is why it is easy for a modern Hebrew-speaker to read ancient writings (most notably, the Bible). In contrast, try to read Shakespeare sometime.This "suspended animation" that the Hebrew language spent for a few millennia should have left it closer to its phonetic roots than other languages, not further, so I believe (although I do not know it as a fact), that Hebrew should be pretty easy to spell, relatively speaking, and most languages should be harder to spell.
      Anyone with more knowledge in the subject care to elaborate?

      --
      Whenever in an argument, remember this.
    27. Re:I call horseshit by hedwards · · Score: 1

      The problem is that you need a bit of phonetics in order to read, but after you've had the basics, a proper whole language program is really the way to go. As in once you can decode the words enough to identify the word, then you're supposed to start reading real texts. As in text that is appropriate to that stage of development but real text. Basically pared down vocabulary and with mainly simple sentence constructs.

      One of the problems with education is that there's a lot of stuff being passed off as reliable, when there's maybe a handful of studies and often times they're not represented accurately.

    28. Re:I call horseshit by osu-neko · · Score: 1

      Years after getting out of the system, I still saw high school seniors in honors programs who couldn't spell worth a damn.

      ...and I still see high school seniors in honors programs who can't spell worth a damn, who were not subjected to the same educational program. To assume X caused Y because X preceded Y is an all too common fallacy.

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    29. Re:I call horseshit by hedwards · · Score: 1

      It's not possible to completely ignore phonetics, more likely it was mostly pushed to the back burner. It's not possible to learn to read and genuinely avoid phonetics to that degree. Because at some point you're going to have to know how to translate the written word into sounds and vice versa and to date nobody has ever figured out how to genuinely eliminate phonetics from the process. Some have managed to minimize it, but nobody has managed to completely eliminate it.

    30. Re:I call horseshit by filthpickle · · Score: 1

      I remember in high school German class the teacher said something along the lines of 'as far as you guys are concerned...if I tell you something is a rule in terms of grammar or spelling...it always is. There are no exceptions'.

      I remember thinking....oh, that's nice.

    31. Re:I call horseshit by osu-neko · · Score: 1

      Are you talking about French?

      Quite the opposite. French is, in fact, the source of much of the inconsistency in the English language (modern English being the bastard love-child of French and Old English, a more purely germanic language).

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    32. Re:I call horseshit by hedwards · · Score: 1

      pain, lane, feign: again, same sound different spelling

      Not to be nitpicky, but in standard American English again does not fit with that patter, it's pronounced roughly similar to the ending of mountain.

      Not that I'm griping too much, because your post is spot on. It's really not that much more work to get people to recognize which homophone it is just because you collapse the spellings down to something reasonable.

    33. Re:I call horseshit by Kilrah_il · · Score: 1

      It was a rhetorical question used to show a counter-example to the OP's argument. French is the epitome of phonetic-spelling incompatibility, IMHO.

      --
      Whenever in an argument, remember this.
    34. Re:I call horseshit by germansausage · · Score: 1

      Archaic words from England are the worst. Boatswain is actually pronounced bosun, gunwhale is pronounced gunnel and Featherstonehaughworcestershire is pronounced fub.

    35. Re:I call horseshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As long as it Involves, too.

    36. Re:I call horseshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    37. Re:I call horseshit by danwiz · · Score: 1

      Reading is key to spelling. Read, read, read, read. Read 6 or 7 books a week. Reading Slashdot doesn't count.

      If it's 7 books a week ... and each contained 300 pages ... at a rate of 1 page/minute
      ... that's an average of 5 hours of book reading each day.

      That's more sleep than some IT people get!

    38. Re:I call horseshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or just Volvos.
      They're blocky but they're good.

    39. Re:I call horseshit by lgw · · Score: 1

      The examples you gave are not archaic at all: they're nautical terms, still in use. The parretns you've identified are older place names, and nautical terms, which both evolve differently from normal language.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    40. Re:I call horseshit by canadian_right · · Score: 1

      Reading is not the key to spelling for everyone. I read a novel a week from the time I was eight until the present, but I found reading and spelling to be two distinct skills. I could sometime tell a word wasn't right or looked odd when writing, but generally all that reading did not help my spelling. This fact did surprise most English teachers as my atrocious spelling generally led them to ask me how much I read so I surmise that for most people more reading does equal better spelling.

      My kids who only write in apps that do spell-checking can't see the point of memorizing exact spellings. Get it close enough, pick the right word. They do see that correct spelling speeds up their writing if they are doing more than a quick text message. My boys see getting the right word the first time as a game or challenge.

      --
      Anarchists never rule
    41. Re:I call horseshit by lgw · · Score: 1

      English spelling was fixed, as much as it could ever be, just a few centuries ago. Funny how language changes, and the pronunciation drifts away from the spelling. Heck, pronunciation drift sometimes causes meaning drift: just 100 years ago "bust" and "burst" were still the same word, "ass" had become rude as some people said it the same way as "arse", and some people started calling that a "cuss" instead of a "curse". It wasn't all that long ago that "Mary", "marry", and "merry" weren't homonyms in some dialects, and where "word", "bird", and "herd" would have been very poor rhymes.

      Pure phonetic spelling just doesn't work very well when people at different places and times (but close enough to communicate with one another) pronounce the same words in different ways.

      We're still much, much better off than a pictographic language, which a third of the world is still stuck with.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    42. Re:I call horseshit by jpapon · · Score: 1
      Of course! In Deutschland we allow NO EXCEPTIONS!!

      NONE!

      --
      -- Let us endeavor so to live that when we pass even the undertaker shall be sorry. -- M. Twain
    43. Re:I call horseshit by I8TheWorm · · Score: 1

      Strangely enough, I learned phonetically, and am generally the one in the house who is asked to spell everything.

      That's not to say your experience is invalid, but to point out that there are certainly exceptions to it.

      --
      Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
    44. Re:I call horseshit by I8TheWorm · · Score: 1

      Omnivolves!

      --
      Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
    45. Re:I call horseshit by I8TheWorm · · Score: 1

      Other than items that hadn't been thought of before, why would it need to?

      For is for. 4 is four. There is absolutely no need for the English language to "evolve" from questioning "What for?" to "wat 4?"

      I get that on cellphones the lack of qwerty keyboard makes typing full centences/words difficult, and that in SMS your number of characters is limited. When I see it happen in an email someone typed from a qwerty keyboard I want to punch them in the throat.

      --
      Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
    46. Re:I call horseshit by I8TheWorm · · Score: 1

      How about German? Or Tamil? Those two are off the top of my head, and I'm sure there are more.

      --
      Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
    47. Re:I call horseshit by I8TheWorm · · Score: 1

      I commented earlier that I have the same experience as someone who learned phonetically.

      I didn't couple it with how much reading I did though.

      Pretty insightful. Unless you read a book on that ;)

      --
      Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
    48. Re:I call horseshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I used to read a novel in a day when I was a kid (about 100p per hr or so). I couldn't really remember details that well, but it was pretty immersive.

      I'm inclined to say it did help my spelling but then again, spelling is a bit more straightforward in Finnish.

    49. Re:I call horseshit by Bratmon · · Score: 1

      What about languages like Chinese?

    50. Re:I call horseshit by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      I naturally assume reading that many books means you are reading light material - novels and such. If you are reading academic textbooks at one page per minute, I'm jealous.

      One page per minute of an average paperback novel is only 250 words per minute. This is pretty slow for such light reading. Most people should be able to hit around 500 wpm on something like a novel. 100-300 wpm is normal for heavy reading, like academic texts and such.

      That means 7 300 page novels should be more like 2.5 hours of reading every day. Since the average American watches 5 hours of TV a night, I'd say sacrificing half of that to reading is not a bad thing at all. Even if you did take 5 hours of reading a night to hit 7 novels a week, I don't think it would be a bad trade.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    51. Re:I call horseshit by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      I have found Firefox's spell-checker has improved my spelling quite a bit.

      Since the mechanism for correcting the spelling sucks (right click and choose) I usually go back and fix it myself. This imprints the correct spelling in my brain, and it generally only takes a few misspellings before I spell a word correctly the first time.

      It's not perfect, but it does mean I'll eventually be as good Firefox's spellchecker - which I've noticed is often missing correct permutations of various words, by the way.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    52. Re:I call horseshit by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 2

      Your teacher lied to you.

      Deaf people have notoriously bad spelling. Case in point, here is a link to a "Yahoo Answers" question asking whether people thought deaf university students should be given leeway with spelling and grammar, when even foreign language students are not:
      http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090702074259AAKDeM3

      NASA research into sub-vocalization showed that even deaf people sub-vocalize - that is they twitch muscles related to the words they are reading. Those deaf people who have never heard the sounds simply sub-vocalize with their hands instead of their throat and mouths.

      In other words, they have the exact same potential pitfalls that everyone else has. The only difference is they wiggle their fingers instead of wiggling their jaws.

      Good spelling must be learned. It does not come naturally to anybody. The only reason people who learned to read phonetically have trouble spelling is because spelling was not emphasized. It should have been. How can you possibly expect to correctly spell a word in a language as mixed up and confused as English if you've never learned to spell? Even sight readers have this problem for any new word (which is much harder for them to learn than someone who learned phonetically - phonics shouldn't be neglected either). They simply know how to spell the words they know how to write, they don't know the rules for spelling or grammar any more than a phonetic reader.

      The goal of sight reading is to pick up the phonetics naturally anyway. When that fails you get functional illiteracy - people who can read the 2,000-3,000 words the learned from all those "See Spot Run" books and have no way of learning new words. That's why the functional illiteracy rate in the US is estimated to be between 15% and 30%.

      This is getting off topic, but the point is the only reason people can't spell is because their education was neglected. They cannot spell because they were not taught to spell correctly.

      Blaming phonics is a cop out that is demonstrably false.

      For a contrasting example, spelling bees don't exist in Japan. To say a word correctly is to spell it correctly. Good luck writing it though. It is entirely possible to learn to read Japanese without ever learning to speak it. In fact, if you can read Chinese, you can figure out Japanese (and vice versa). The only difference between the written languages is the sentence structure.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    53. Re:I call horseshit by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      You'd think by the second time you'd have learned not to read his posts any more.

      Guess you aren't too bright.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    54. Re:I call horseshit by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      We're still much, much better off than a pictographic language, which a third of the world is still stuck with.

      That's one thing we can certainly thank the Arabs for.

      How the mighty have fallen.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    55. Re:I call horseshit by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      The most important rule in English is this:

      For every rule, there is an exception, even this one!

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    56. Re:I call horseshit by digitig · · Score: 1

      So I take it you still speak the English of Beowulf? After all, theodcyninga [1] are still theodcyninga (although there are not as many about).

      [1] The "th" should be a thorn, but /. doesn't seem to be able to render that.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    57. Re:I call horseshit by ittybad · · Score: 1

      Case and point to back up the notion of word recognition causing students to be completely incapable of pronouncing a word: I mostly learned to read by word recognition. I had enough stories repeated read to me that I just picked up on how to read. Flash forward to a few years ago. I would keep seeing these dang Buick REN-DENZ-VOUS (Ren, like Ren and Stimpy; Denz, like the plural of "den"; Vous like .. I donno.. rhymes with "bus"). I was wondering, who in their right mind, would name a vehicle such an odd word. It occurred to me, much later, that the dang word was rendezvous, as in to meet up. It's fairly embarrassing.

      --
      No single raindrop believes it is to blame for the flood.
    58. Re:I call horseshit by myoparo · · Score: 1

      As posted by someone else here, German is actually a good example of a language whose writing system fits it very well. If only ours were that good!

      I don't know enough about Tamil to make a comment, but another language notorious for non-phonetic spellings is French.

    59. Re:I call horseshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interesting. What state are you in? I'm from California and for me "again" rhymes with pen and hen, but not mountain, which roughly rhymes with tin.

      pain, lane, feign: again, same sound different spelling

      Oh I see why you said that. I didn't mean for the word "again" to be compared with the others, though I can see how it could be misread right there.

    60. Re:I call horseshit by myoparo · · Score: 1

      Interesting. What state are you in? I'm from California and for me "again" rhymes with pen and hen, but not mountain, which roughly rhymes with tin.

      pain, lane, feign: again, same sound different spelling

      Oh I see why you said that. I didn't mean for the word "again" to be compared with the others, though I can see how it could be misread right there.

      Hmm... I didn't mean to post that as AC. Oh well.

    61. Re:I call horseshit by franki.macha · · Score: 1

      ``Again'' isn't actually part of the list, if you pay close attention to the punctuation.

      I also agree with the other poster about ``mountain'' rhyming with ``tin'' rather than ``again'' (which rhymes with ``hen'').

      But then, I'm not American.

    62. Re:I call horseshit by Kilrah_il · · Score: 1

      And of course, we have all the symbol-based languages, most notably those from the Far-East. Since they aren't based on a phonemes, they have virtually no connection between how a word is written and how it is pronounced.

      --
      Whenever in an argument, remember this.
    63. Re:I call horseshit by Kilrah_il · · Score: 1

      I agree with most of your post. However, you need to make a distinction between deaf people who weren't given access to the primary spoken language in their country (e.g. English) as children and those that were raised in a bilingual environment. The former group have limited comprehension of the spoken language and their grammar is so removed from ours as to make their writing nearly incomprehensible. OTOH, the latter group (mostly deaf people in the last decade or two), learned the spoken language from an early age (in addition to sign language) and they usually have a good grasp of the language. Their grammar is better and they, according to my teacher who works with deaf a lot, have very few spelling mistakes.

      Again, I agree with all the rest of what you wrote.

      --
      Whenever in an argument, remember this.
    64. Re:I call horseshit by myoparo · · Score: 1

      Yes, non-alphabet based writing systems are largely exempt from having "spelling" issues as we think if them.

      English writing is slowly becoming a hybrid of the two systems. It is supposed to be phonetic but some spellings are so divergent from the sounds that they border on become symbolic also.

    65. Re:I call horseshit by multipartmixed · · Score: 1

      Funny enough, I'm a fantastic speller -- having read a book a day for several years in a row as a child -- and normally eschew spell-check on all but the most important (and lengthy) documents. Firefox, however, has corrected a couple of long-term errors that I make repeatedly, such as "definately". Which still looks right to me, sigh.

      --

      Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
    66. Re:I call horseshit by EnglishDude · · Score: 1

      You're partially right - but deaf people are not good spellers for different reasons. I'm deaf, while I don't make spelling mistakes like "fone", I cannot spell words I haven't specifically learnt. If there's a word I vaguely know, I can't spell it for toffee - you hearing people can guess to the spelling, or use phonetics to figure the spelling out - I make wild guesses and it's usually totally wrong. I have big problems with spell checkers being totally unable to guess the correct spelling because I don't misspell words phonetically, I totally flub it up. I usually have to ask other people for the correct spelling.

      Deaf people tend to have shockingly bad grammar - you might think my grammar isn't great - it's better than most deaf people I know, unfortunately.

      On the flip side, I have problems with speaking words in the exact way as they are spelt - it was only 5 years ago (I'm 30) when I finally understood that written "ph" is spoken as "f" despite always saying phone as "fone". It made huge sense to me why people misspell "phone" as "fone" - I used to wonder how could anyone misspell that - but now I understand why.

    67. Re:I call horseshit by EnglishDude · · Score: 1

      I'm deaf from birth I was brought up bilingually with spoken English and BSL - however I picked up on BSL far faster than spoken English - I still cannot speak English well and find it much easier and less tiring to communicate in BSL. However, I don't sub-vocalise - I don't even know how I read words - I don't think in English or sign language - maybe I'm wrong or misunderstanding sub-vocalising, but when I try to look at my thought process but I don't recognise it in either English or BSL.

    68. Re:I call horseshit by EnglishDude · · Score: 2

      I'm deaf and I know many deaf people and I talk to a lot through the Internet. You'd be surprised how bad deaf people's grammar are, and the number of deaf people with fairly good grammar similar or better than mine unfortunately is vanishingly rare.

    69. Re:I call horseshit by Kilrah_il · · Score: 1

      Reminds me of a joke:
      I'm an orphan, my father is an orphan, my mother is an orphan. Even my children are orphans!

      Well, that'll teach me not to trust hearsay again. Just checking: I was talking about spelling, not grammar. Is the situation with spelling the same? Sign language has a different grammar and thus deaf people have problem with English (or any other spoken language). Also, what age-group are you referring to? Deaf children have better spelling than older people because of the different education they are getting (more bilingual education).

      --
      Whenever in an argument, remember this.
    70. Re:I call horseshit by EnglishDude · · Score: 1

      Yes - in another post I mentioned in length why I make many spelling mistakes - if someone tells you a word, you can figure out a reasonable guess to the spelling of the word, while it's not possible for me to do so. For that reason, I have problems with spellcheckers being unable to guess to the correct word to my misspellings.

      Education? What education for deaf people? (In the UK, anyway with our "One Size Fits All" education policy...)

    71. Re:I call horseshit by Kilrah_il · · Score: 1

      So I think the following would be a good summery: Deaf people spell very good words they know, but have a hard time spelling new words. Grammer is a weak point for most deaf people... And UK education sux :)

      --
      Whenever in an argument, remember this.
    72. Re:I call horseshit by EnglishDude · · Score: 1

      Something like that, yes.

    73. Re:I call horseshit by dwillden · · Score: 1

      So very true, my youngest brother and sister were subject to that teaching method and always struggled to enjoy reading, compared to we older siblings who learned to read and spell phonetically. If properly taught, phonetics teaches the student not only the sounds but the various combinations and rules for making those combinations.

      Does a pure phonetic speller make mistakes due to the various ways of producing the phonetic sounds used in the English language? Yes, but a phonetic speller can spell new words more accurately, and can sound out new words as well.

      Being able to sound out the words also gives the phonetic reader the ability to derive the various root words and sounds that often give hint to the meaning or definition of the new words.

      Phonetics works, it works well, and while not perfect it works far better than the alternatives.

      --
      I'm too lazy to compose a creative sig.
    74. Re:I call horseshit by I8TheWorm · · Score: 1

      You might not believe this, but I wasn't around during that evolution of English. Nor was I around for the Norman invasion, invasion by Nordic tribes, Northmen (vikings), influx of Latin due to the church, Greek influence as education gained popularity, exploration of new and uncharted lands giving us names for plants, etc...

      All this while the written word was rare, so documenting and teaching the language was near impossible.

      Of course that's been possible for a long time now, which has helped stabilize the English language. While there have been a few changes in the last 400 years, none have been as dramatic as changes made in previous periods. We now teach the English language in this crazy notion of schools everyone can attend which was unheard of as the language was transforming from old to middle English, and middle to modern English.

      I could go on and on about things like the Great English Vowel Shift, which accounts for what appears to be strange spelling of some modern words but is really spelling related to older pronunciations (pre 1600 when the language really stabilized). However, I doubt that's necessary as I'm sure you did quite a bit of research before making your comment.

      So what was your argument again?

      --
      Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
    75. Re:I call horseshit by I8TheWorm · · Score: 1

      English used to be as well, but modern spellings that seem strange are typically representative of pre 1600 pronunciations.

      And, like Los Angeles, I like to pretend French doesn't exist :D

      --
      Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
    76. Re:I call horseshit by digitig · · Score: 1

      While there have been a few changes in the last 400 years, none have been as dramatic as changes made in previous periods.

      We now teach the English language in this crazy notion of schools everyone can attend which was unheard of as the language was transforming from old to middle English, and middle to modern English.

      And the English I was taught in school is not the English my children were taught in school. I was taught a lot of complexities of grammar that are now considered unnatural and unnecessary. And that's ignoring the fact that most language use is phatic, not ideational (I've seen estimates as high as 90% of language use being phatic), and many phatic uses do require changes in lexis for established items within a language community.

      I could go on and on about things like the Great English Vowel Shift, which accounts for what appears to be strange spelling of some modern words but is really spelling related to older pronunciations

      Not so much the great vowel shift, because that tended to carry the spellings with it (the sound represented by 'a' changed, but the new sound was still represented by 'a'), although it does account for a lot of the difference between vowel sounds in different parts of the UK. Most of the spelling inconsistencies were due either to differences between the languages that influenced English or due to the printers deliberately obfusticating the spellings so that only they could do it right. There's a case for de-obfusticating those spellings and bringing the foreign spellings into English form, something Webster went part-way with in the USA but which hasn't really happened in the UK to the same extent.

      However, I doubt that's necessary as I'm sure you did quite a bit of research before making your comment.

      Does a first-class honours degree in English language count as "quite a bit of research"?

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    77. Re:I call horseshit by Luyseyal · · Score: 1

      Hahaha even Texas has free public schools for the deaf. Of course, if you check into the hospital here and you're not visibly gushing blood or something the first thing they ask you for is insurance or a credit card...

      Just goes to show you, we're all insane.
      -l

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    78. Re:I call horseshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No.

      The differences between written Japanese and written Chinese amount to far more than 'word order.'

  5. and later... by clemdoc · · Score: 1

    ...they'll become great cryptographers once they start texting in rot13 so mom can't spy on them.

    1. Re:and later... by gophish · · Score: 1

      Interestingly enough, as an exercise in boredom, I have recently been having all of my text message conversations, with certain qualified individuals, in reverse. .yaw siht nettirw eb dluow ecnetnes siht ,ecnatsni rof ,oS Pedantic, yes. Waste of time, yes. Utterly hilarious when you get good at it, also yes.

  6. Sure. by Zedrick · · Score: 3, Interesting

    From TFA:

    "may be"
    "possible"

    Interesting. It's also possible that injecting people with heroin helps them stay away from drugs. And may be beating children with baseball bats gives them a wonderful childhood. Who knows?

    1. Re:Sure. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's also possible that injecting people with heroin helps them stay away from drugs. And may be beating children with baseball bats gives them a wonderful childhood. Who knows?

      Obviously, we need more government-funded studies.

    2. Re:Sure. by hipp5 · · Score: 1

      "may be" "possible"

      That's just science speak, the same as how "Theory of Gravity" doesn't really mean that gravity is a nebulous theory concocted by some dude high on drugs. This study is based on a sample of the world's population, so there is a chance that there results aren't globally true. A scientist who claims "this IS true" without sampling each and every person in the world would be lying to you. However, it shouldn't be read as "we pulled these ideas out of our asses."

    3. Re:Sure. by swillden · · Score: 1

      It's also possible that injecting people with heroin helps them stay away from drugs.

      Interestingly, the Swiss have discovered that injecting long-time heroin addicts with inexpensive prescription heroin is a pretty good way to get them off heroin, and to make their lives manageable until they get off heroin. The program has been so successful that several other countries have adopted it.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    4. Re:Sure. by osu-neko · · Score: 1

      From TFA:

      "may be"

      "possible"

      Indeed. These are bywords you should look for in any article before considering it credible. The honest and diligent who pursue knowledge invariably speak in such terms.

      On the other hand, any article in which the author asserts certainty and the incontrovertible truth of what is said is an article obviously written by an idiot and contains zero in the way of reliable information. Where it happens to be true, it's only coincidentally so.

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    5. Re:Sure. by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      That's just science speak, the same as how "Theory of Gravity" doesn't really mean that gravity is a nebulous theory concocted by some dude high on drugs.

      People only think things like that because they have no idea what a theory actually is. They generally confuse it with a hypothesis, which often actually is a nebulous thought concocted by some dude high on drugs. Then he tests it, and lo and behold it works! Then it is a theory, which may or may not hold up given time and further testing.

      What we call scientific Laws are really just theories that are so basic, fundamental, and just plain old that nobody can even come up with a scenario in which they might not be completely accurate. Most of the big ones NewtonCase in point the "Theory of Gravity". It wasn't long ago that it was the "Law of Gravity". However, Einstein kind of screwed that up for Newton with Relativity, and black holes really screwed things up for Einstein. Now we have to have at least two theories of Gravity to cover the full spectrum of what Gravity affects, so it has kind of lost its status. That doesn't make Gravity any less real, however, and that should be quite obvious to just about anybody. The easy out is to re-define the "Law of Gravity" from Newton's original law to a much more simplified (and less useful) one, but the damage is done.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
  7. Yeah but the problem is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ;TLDR

  8. K, lets try slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    K. If this works, where else can we use it? How about someone clone Slashdot. Get rid of the text message board, and force us to use a live VOIP program to read and reply to comments (i.e. listening and talking) . Maybe, instead of increasing spelling skills, the increased human exposure would improve our social skills!

    BTW First Mic Spam.

  9. Punctuation and capitals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sure, now if we could just get the little darlings to find the "Shift" key occasionally and maybe toss in a period or comma now and again ...

    Then again, maybe "textism" is the new "literate".

    1. Re:Punctuation and capitals by digitig · · Score: 1

      Sure, now if we could just get the little darlings to find the "Shift" key occasionally and maybe toss in a period or comma now and again ...

      Oh, please, no! Txtspk serves a purpose, but please not 1337!

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    2. Re:Punctuation and capitals by FrostDust · · Score: 1

      I've had people complain that my usage of proper capitalization and grammar in chats, IMs, and the like makes it seem I'm "showing off" or that I "think I'm better than them."

      So, yeah, I guess you have to learn to play to your venue.

    3. Re:Punctuation and capitals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      13/\\/3 1337 0|_|+ 0|= 17, 7|-|15 15 /\80|-|+ 7|-| /\+ 61883r15|-| +>+3p|!

  10. Great spellers, but what about proper grammar? by bartyboy · · Score: 1

    Anybody who texts should of known this already. Texting is not only addicting but educational!

  11. Ebonics != Language by Bucc5062 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This is like saying Ebonics is a language.

    So now, all our great works will be reduced to 140 characters with no caps, no punctuation, and hacked up spelling. ee cummings was way ahead of his time.

    --
    Life is a great ride, the vehicle doesn't matter
    1. Re:Ebonics != Language by Amorymeltzer · · Score: 1

      And that would be awesome. See the success of the Six Word Memoir - the presidential ones are great. But so what? It's humorous and amusing and translating a work doesn't diminish it in the original language. Pride and Prejudice and Zombies doesn't make Jane Austen any less wonderful, so if there's a market for a twitter account condensing books ("Dammit where is that white whale?!") then full speed ahead!

      --
      I live in constant fear of the Coming of the Red Spiders.
    2. Re:Ebonics != Language by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 1

      This is like saying Ebonics is a language.

      So now, all our great works will be reduced to 140 characters with no caps, no punctuation, and hacked up spelling. ee cummings was way ahead of his time.

      I'd say if something allows communication between two or more individuals, it's a language. Or are you referring to the language/dialect distinction?

      --
      I am not a crackpot.
    3. Re:Ebonics != Language by Bucc5062 · · Score: 1

      Perhaps, but Ebonics is considered a subset of English and not a language in its own right.

      --
      Life is a great ride, the vehicle doesn't matter
    4. Re:Ebonics != Language by osu-neko · · Score: 2

      This is like saying Ebonics is a language.

      No, it isn't. Nice troll, though...

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    5. Re:Ebonics != Language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ebonics is a language... with its own set of internally consistent grammar rules that happen to sound bad to some uptight english speakers. saying it's not a language because of that is like saying Ukranian really isn't a language cause it just sounds like misspoken Russian.

    6. Re:Ebonics != Language by freaktheclown · · Score: 1

      Latin was written in all caps with no punctuation or spaces. Who knew Latin wasn't a language?

    7. Re:Ebonics != Language by Bucc5062 · · Score: 1

      Lets not be so padantic. Latin is not ebonics, and language has evolved over time so we can say that Latin is a language even if it did not have caps, spaces or punctuation. A simple google search would show that ebonics is not much more then a modified set of bastardized English.

      --
      Life is a great ride, the vehicle doesn't matter
    8. Re:Ebonics != Language by Totenglocke · · Score: 1

      Latin was a language that existed before punctuation did. Ebonics is people too stupid to learn their native language, so they just mumble some shit and then when they're told to learn english if they want a job, they cry and claim it's a "language" and that it's "racist" to not support it.

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    9. Re:Ebonics != Language by PCM2 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Ebonics is people too stupid to learn their native language, so they just mumble some shit and then when they're told to learn english if they want a job, they cry and claim it's a "language" and that it's "racist" to not support it.

      No. "Ebonics" was a bunch of teachers wanting to get dialect classified as a language, so they could then teach English as a second language. The idea is this: Students whose native language is Spanish come to American schools with many of the same handicaps as people who have grown up only speaking African-American dialect. The difference is that the states and the federal government provide additional funds for English as a Second Language (ESL) classes, but they don't provide any additional funding to help the black students, even though they consistently perform poorly in English classes. By getting Ebonics classified as a language, the teachers hoped to win some of the same additional funding that teachers who teach English to Latino students get.

      Unfortunately, nobody outside the Bay Area seems to understand this, and so Ebonics in the rest of America remains just a touchstone to allow racist assholes like you feel good about yourselves.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    10. Re:Ebonics != Language by Totenglocke · · Score: 1

      The idea is this: Students whose native language is Spanish come to American schools with many of the same handicaps as people who have grown up only speaking African-American dialect.

      Please for the love of god, learn WTF you're talking about. There is no such thing as an "african-american" dialect. As I said, it's people too stupid to learn the language of their own country. You don't see this in any other country where people can't speak their native language and you certainly don't see it in people coming from Africa. It's got nothing to do with race and everything to do with a sub-culture in American of being too goddamn lazy to learn anything.

      But there are assholes like you who want to claim it's racial (which makes YOU the racist asshole for thinking that they're incapable of learning English as any other native born American would simply because they're black) instead of realizing that it's about the choices of specific people.

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    11. Re:Ebonics != Language by PCM2 · · Score: 1

      Please for the love of god, learn WTF you're talking about. There is no such thing as an "african-american" dialect. As I said, it's people too stupid to learn the language of their own country.

      No, actually, much of the African-American dialect is invented intentionally -- much like the Jamaican patois -- as a way to provide solidarity among the black community. It's also incredibly hypocritical for a white guy to claim blacks are "too stupid" to learn the language of "their country," when blacks were first kidnapped from their real countries and enslaved, then denied equal access to education for decades, all by racist assholes like you.

      which makes YOU the racist asshole for thinking that they're incapable of learning English as any other native born American would simply because they're black

      Well make up your mind, David Duke -- are they "too stupid" to learn, or can they not learn because I'm a racist? Sounds like you're the only one saying they can't learn, to me.

      What I'm saying is that it might be nice if America did something to help black students get better education, after having been denied equal opportunities in the United States for generations. Economic status and education are highly correlated. A parent who was shot at by the National Guard when they tried to go to college is probably not going to raise their children in high economic status, and therefore the cycle of poor education continues.

      But no -- you, from your position of privilege, get to look at an entire class of people and declare them "too stupid." They just coincidentally happen to be black, but that has absolutely nothing to do with how stupid, lazy, and ignorant they all are. Presumably they also like to steal. Tell me -- what have your scientific studies revealed regarding the consumption of watermelon or fried chicken?

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    12. Re:Ebonics != Language by Totenglocke · · Score: 1

      What I'm saying is that it might be nice if America did something to help black students get better education, after having been denied equal opportunities in the United States for generations.

      You keep wanting to blame things that ended generations ago for why groups of black today chose to be idiots. Yet back when they DIDN'T have rights or access to education, they were able to speak English just like everyone else. Weird, isn't it? My brother in law is black and grew up in a welfare family - funny thing is, he can speak English as well as anyone else can. But that ruins your "evil white man" theory for why there are groups of blacks who chose to talk that way. If your whole "evil white man" theory was true, then explain all the millions of blacks who CAN speak English? Very, very few of them were born into rich families, yet they're able to speak English just fine.

      Please, try coming up with facts to support your arguments other than your childish insults of "if you don't support blacks not learning how to speak English, you're racist" crap.

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    13. Re:Ebonics != Language by PCM2 · · Score: 1

      My brother in law is black and grew up in a welfare family - funny thing is, he can speak English as well as anyone else can.

      I'm glad you have black friends. Ask him about "code switching." He knows what it means.

      That said, the fact that some people have equal access to education does not mean that all do. And therefore your contention that "Ebonics" -- an effort to obtain access to ESL funds for underrepresented, underprivileged black students -- proves that blacks are lazy and ignorant has not been proven.

      You are a racist. Search yourself and grow.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
  12. Spelling FAIL! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's "should have known" not "should of known".

    1. Re:Spelling FAIL! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's "should have known" not "should of known".

      It ain't it's. Its it is not it's.

    2. Re:Spelling FAIL! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, the parent used "it's" correctly.

    3. Re:Spelling FAIL! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's "should have known" not "should of known".

      It ain't it's. Its it is not it's.

      LOL! Grammar Nazi FAIL!

    4. Re:Spelling FAIL! by Totenglocke · · Score: 1

      Or (though most spell checkers will flag it) "should've". I find it amusing that spell check is OK with "could've" for abbreviating "could have" but flags "should've" in place of "should have".

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
  13. Statistics by Legion303 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    And yet the rate of instances in which I want to punch these texting douchebags repeatedly in the face is trending upwards.

    1. Re:Statistics by myoparo · · Score: 0

      I'm pretty sure that's what the old "wise-men" said when writing and reading first became popular too.

      Damn writing doucebags.

  14. kids, i lol 4 u and i lol at ur future by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ur screwd.

  15. Re:Double Spelling FAIL! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is the original Anonymous Coward. Epic FAIL for you!

  16. Bollox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I want to see this damn study. Every summary, including the university's own, has a different age selection and a different size group. If you can't even read a study and get a concrete fact, like the number of subjects, correct how can you espouse on the conclusions with any accuracy.

  17. "text-speak" in formal writing by Nidi62 · · Score: 0

    Sure, this is anecdotal, and the plural of anecdote is not data, but if students who text all the time are actually good spellers and have a grasp on English, why does it seem like more and more students are using text abbreviations in actual writing? It seems like almost every time I talk to my friends who are either graduate teaching assistants or actually teaching classes themselves someone else has done this on a paper. And this is in a large public university. The bigger problem to me is that people are texting so much, and seeing these abbreviations so much (advertising, twitter, etc) that they are not realizing that there are appropriate and inappropriate times to use these abbreviations, and more and more often they are using them at the wrong times.

    --
    The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    1. Re:"text-speak" in formal writing by NoZart · · Score: 1

      especially verbally. People saying "lol" with a stone cold face always makes me cringe...

    2. Re:"text-speak" in formal writing by PFI_Optix · · Score: 1

      My wife teaches sixth grade science, and she has seen a remarkable decline in the spelling abilities of her students in the eight years she has been teaching. Older teachers say the same thing: as texting became prolific, spelling errors increased dramatically. Studies be damned, when you look at what kids are actually doing in school, they seem to think that what they write in SMS messages is acceptable English for school assignments.

      --
      120 characters for a sig? That's bloody useless.
    3. Re:"text-speak" in formal writing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As somebody who learned English as a second language, I welcome these spelling experiments since I think English has horrible spelling. Sure, "drive through" might be the "correct" spelling, but isn't "drive tru" much better in all honesty? "a" is already a one letter word, why shouldn't "u" become one as well?

    4. Re:"text-speak" in formal writing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hmm or maybe she's just a bad teacher...

    5. Re:"text-speak" in formal writing by myoparo · · Score: 0

      The English writing system is indeed at fault. We teach in our schools that "u" and "r" have a certain sound but when those same kids we taught produce a sentence like "how r u?" that is deemed completely wrong even though it is phonetically correct.

    6. Re:"text-speak" in formal writing by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      You're taking a bad system and making it even more inconsistent. Where else do you see 'u' pronounced as you or ewe? Its normal pronunciation is uh, not ewe. Threw is more consistent than through, as is thrue, but thru (which I presume you meant, rather than tru) is just adding another inconsistent usage.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    7. Re:"text-speak" in formal writing by colinrichardday · · Score: 1

      And the teachers her students had in first through fifth grades are all bad, too?

    8. Re:"text-speak" in formal writing by PFI_Optix · · Score: 1

      I really shouldn't feed the trolls...

      She's a science teacher. Beside that, SIXTH GRADE. If they can't spell and follow grammar rules by sixth grade, no one teacher is going to correct the problem.

      --
      120 characters for a sig? That's bloody useless.
    9. Re:"text-speak" in formal writing by osu-neko · · Score: 1

      Sure, this is anecdotal, and the plural of anecdote is not data, but if students who text all the time are actually good spellers and have a grasp on English, why does it seem like more and more students are using text abbreviations in actual writing?

      First of all, the claim is that those who text are better spellers than they would otherwise be, not that they "are actually good spellers". Secondly, there's a difference between having a grasp of English rules and having respect for them.

      ...they are not realizing that there are appropriate and inappropriate times to use these abbreviations, and more and more often they are using them at the wrong times.

      This is, ultimately, a value judgment. What's clear here is that these kids have different ideas about when their use is appropriate and inappropriate. The article suggests the kids are more knowledgeable than they would otherwise be, it does not follow that they have the exact same standards.

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    10. Re:"text-speak" in formal writing by SlothDead · · Score: 1

      Then just use the perfect spelling of the German language (just don't use its grammar or pronounciation, those suck)

      "u" is always u as in "boot"
      "a" is always a as in "car"
      "ä" is always ä as in "care" (Germans would spell it "cär", not "care", which would sound like "cuh reh")

      If inglish followd thies simpel ruls it wud bi a lot isier tu lörn and yuus, don't yu agri?
      If english followed these simple rules it would be a lot easier to learn and use, don't you agree?

    11. Re:"text-speak" in formal writing by franki.macha · · Score: 1

      Yes!

      The myth that English has five vowels is incredibly damaging. The five _letters_ that we call vowels might have been good enough for Latin, and might still be good enough for Spanish, but for a Germanic language such as English that has many, many, more (something like 12 for me), we need a better system.
      Since other Germanic languages seem to have this sorted, I think it would be a great idea to port one of their solutions to English.

  18. I must be an awesome speller by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 3, Funny

    My spelling must be great, because I lived through the 8.3 DOS filename days.

    --
    I am not a crackpot.
    1. Re:I must be an awesome speller by TubeSteak · · Score: 4, Funny

      My spelli~1 must be great, becaus~1 I lived throug~1 the 8.3 DOS filena~1 days.

      Fixed that for you

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    2. Re:I must be an awesome speller by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My spelling must be great, because I lived through the 8.3 DOS filename days.

      Fixed that for you

      Fixed that for you. 8 characters is okay, remember?

  19. Macro Expansion by jdigriz · · Score: 2

    They really ought to include a text expansion feature in all IM and SMS programs. Then when the kid types gr8, it will appear as great in the actual message and there will be visual reinforcement of the correct spelling. It will also serve to reduce annoyance to people who hate txt speak. If the 140 char limitation is important in the application, then the messages can be transmitted as-is in txt-speak and translated automatically on the other side. Think of it as a primitive form of message compression.

    1. Re:Macro Expansion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This wouldn't work well:

      Gr8 [Great, Grate].

      You might be able to include a dialog that allows the user to select the correct spelling of the word they want, but by the time they go to the extra effort to choose the correct word, it would have been easier to spell it out in the first place.

  20. That, and... by Trip6 · · Score: 1

    ...abstinence education may help curb teen pregnancies. Just ain't so.

    --
    I hate being bipolar; it's awesome!
  21. It is becoming more likely by NuKe_MoNgOoSe · · Score: 0

    That |337 speak very well could become the language of the future, and why not? More people are socializing now in the cyber environment in many cultures than they are in the real world. More and more people are meeting their life partners through sites like Lava Life rather than in bars or grocery stores. Internet abbreviations like lol and lmao and brb are as common as the word "the" or if you rather the common misstep "teh". No longer are people limited to finding a hometown girl/boy they can find love a continent away on the other side of the world. Now, because of this social movement there is required a global language and what better than geek speak to connect everyone on a global scale. I have friends from all over the world and there is not one of them that doesnt recognize internet abbreviations like lol and brb. The more sophisticated alpha-numeric way of speaking I find more popular around the cracker/hacker crowd, people who type everything 1n w4y5 much |1k3 7h15 50m3 g37 |\/|0r3 cr3471\/3.. If you pay attention though the masses, young or old, which populate cyberspace really do speak a language all their own. Me my kids my parents and their parents all understand this language at its base form. I will say, because I work in a field which requires me pouring over notes from all my employees that a fair percentage type out letters making a lot of the same changes to the english language as they do when txt'n or blogging. It is also not uncommon for me to occasionally see a 'lol' in a formal business email!

    --
    When you dislike the human race as much as I do, Karma:Bad is inevitable lol.
    1. Re:It is becoming more likely by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Oh please. Don't tell me you and your friends didn't have a "secret" language when you were young. Pig latin, anyone? B-Language (dunno if that works in English too, but I guess you know what I mean)? It's not like the phenomenon of "secret code", only legible to insiders, is new.

      Still, so far nothing rolled over into our adult live or if, at best to crack a joke every so often. And while I have a few friends who might say LOL, mostly in situations where a polite snicker would have been appropriate in the times before the internet, that's about everything left over from our OMFGROFLMAO days.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:It is becoming more likely by NuKe_MoNgOoSe · · Score: 0

      New no, but certainly more prevalent than something like pig latin. The big difference is that this effect is global the advent of the internet has brought social groups from all nationalities into a common pool. The people who reside in this pool, regardless of age, use a common form of textspeak which is far more legitimate as a language than something like pig latin. Unlike pig latin I see this language used every day by a extremely varied group of people. I personally just see this form of communication becoming more dominant as time passes.

      --
      When you dislike the human race as much as I do, Karma:Bad is inevitable lol.
  22. English, itself, is broken by WarwickRyan · · Score: 1

    We should change the spelling of words in our language so that they have (and keep) a connection with the pronounciation of said words.

    Convention over configuration, but for our language.

    1. Re:English, itself, is broken by myoparo · · Score: 0

      English isn't broken-- the English writing system is broken. Don't forget to make the distinction, which is important because the writing system of a language is only just an approximation of that language and should be modified whenever it can no longer accurately represent said language.

      Like I said in a few posts already, the spelling bee is mainly an English-only thing for a reason. :)

    2. Re:English, itself, is broken by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Tat is tru. Bat du ju sink eniwon will understend or bi ebl tu riid it if ju wrot it hau it is pronaunzd?

      We learned for the longest time how to write English with its rather weird way of noting down what sounds completely different, changing that now might cause more problems than it would solve. Believe me, as a German who usually writes EXACTLY how it's pronounced, with a few exceptions, English sure was an odd written language to learn... but it's still WAY closer to its pronunciation than French will ever get.

      Seriously, what's wrong with the French? Learning to write French is like learning yet another foreign language.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:English, itself, is broken by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And again, at the danger of being redundant, I can't see why it ain't more popular with the French.

      Maybe because it would have to be held at a university level, I dunno...

      But on topic: There's a danger associated with changing the writing system. Germany had such a reform a few years ago. Now, you might know, German is written pretty close to its pronunciation. So we're not talking about a ground shaking, language uprooting change here. A few words were made simpler, a few ss - ß rules were revised to make them more logic and less arbitrary, the "Ph" in some foreign words were changed to F (so now you write "fotografieren" and "Fantasie" instead of "photgraphieren" und "Phantasie", thankfully they spared us "Füsik", it's still Physik. At least to my knowledge and it's gonna be a very cold day in hell before I write Füsik! Ok, I mean aside of this example ...).

      So as you might see, minor changes. Even if you don't follow the change, you will still be able to read everything.

      The outcry! Insane! Damaging our language! Dumbing down our language! Whole newspaper staff refused to follow the new language system and (some to this date) continue to write in the "old" system. Schools are in disarray, some German states followed the new system, some clinged to the old one, and of course kids now learn two different forms of writing which, while not mutually crippling, would lead to good students suddenly making a lot of grave spelling mistakes were they to move to another state and write their tests there.

      Now imagine a much more invasive revision of the English language that you would have to coordinate not in a single country (ok, in the case of German it was three countries that were affected but afaik the Swiss said from the start that they don't give half a shit about it), but with four very important native speaking countries, quite a few former colonial countries where English is still a formal, official language and of course with pretty much every other country on this globe with English being the de facto lingua franca.

      I don't think anyone really dares to touch that with a mile long pole.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    4. Re:English, itself, is broken by WarwickRyan · · Score: 1

      > Believe me, as a German who usually writes
      > EXACTLY how it's pronounced, with a few
      > exceptions, English sure was an odd written
      > language to learn..

      My opinion stems from my experience of learning dutch. Which is very similar to German. It was kind of an 'eureka' moment for me: a combination of the lax grammar from English and the spelling from dutch (or German).

      The dutch correct their spelling every year. Then they increase the complexity of the grammar to help placitate the grammar nazis.

      Planning on learning German next (inspired by buying a new VW, which came with a German-language manual & onboard computer!). I understand that the grammar is really complex, but I understand that there's a simplified form. Would it be considered rude/bad if I just concentrated on learning the simplified form?

    5. Re:English, itself, is broken by myoparo · · Score: 0

      Thanks for the very informative post. I appreciate the insight on the German language!

      I agree that any movement today to reform the English writing system is destined to fail and be ridiculed. I predict that there will earth-shattering change in English writing until the spoken language diverges so much that learning to write in English becomes like learning a foreign language (Romance-speaking countries writing in Latin, for example).

      In the meantime, we will just have to put up with rampant spelling errors and the risk of being ridiculed for mispronouncing words that we learn from books =)

    6. Re:English, itself, is broken by mewsenews · · Score: 1

      I don't think anyone really dares to touch that with a mile long pole.

      I hadn't heard of this story out of Germany and it definitely makes sense to me. Language is more deeply cherished than people realise, it's perhaps one of the strongest bonds between people and their parents, grandparents, ancestors. Parents start teaching their children to communicate before they're even out of diapers. Having the government intrude into this deeply personal relationship just seems like a small minded bureaucrat trying to impose their will where it isn't wanted or needed. The government is formed by the people, not vice versa.

    7. Re:English, itself, is broken by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      When it comes to casus, it's pretty straightforward. Certain prepositions require certain cases. And it's even similar to English. "wessen" (whose) requires the Genitive. "mit" (with), Dative. "ohne" (without), Accusative. No exceptions (that I could think of right now). Just learn the prepositions along with the case they exact out of the word following and you'll be fine.

      There's not really a "simplified" grammar, but colloquial German usually is much more lenient when it comes to the strictness. Genitive is almost entirely circumvented with constructs that lead to the Dative (so instead of "it is his" you turn the wording around to get "it belongs to him"). Also, nobody is going to hit you with grammar sticks if you confuse Dative and Accusative (with most nouns the forms are similar or identical anyway). Aside of personal pronouns, most of the times the cases are all the same with the exception of the Genitive that usually gets an -s or -es.

      What usually freaks out people when learning German is our weird system of assigning gender (there is this famous example of "the girl puts the milk on the table" would read in German, when written with pronouns, "it puts her on him"), which is entirely arbitrary and has to be learned along with the noun (no rule, at least none that I would possibly aware of. It's not even like in French where you can somehow assume if the noun ends in -e that it's feminine), our plural forming which is at least as arbitrary, our irregular verbs of which there are many (I'd guess about half the verbs are) and some language concepts that don't exist in the English language (like our impersonal pronoun "man", which is similar to the French "on", and which can't directly be translated to English. Usually translations either turn to an "impersonal you" (e.g. "you (not you personally, but meaning anyone) have to turn the stove off to avoid a fire") or translating it with the passive form ("The oven has to be turned off to avoid fire").

      Other than that, there's just our umlauts (which sometimes cause very unfortunate situations if they're read like those little dots were not there, e.g. "schwül" means sultry, but "schwul" means gay (and is about as nice as "fag" is...). I think you might think of a situation where that could lead to rather severe ... unpleasantries). So make sure you know how to pronounce those words before saying them! :)

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    8. Re:English, itself, is broken by romiz · · Score: 1

      And again, at the danger of being redundant, I can't see why it ain't more popular with the French.

      Probably because even though spelling is somewhat hard in french, there are much harder exercices than spelling to writing french. 'Dictée' is the standard exercice in this, it has been so for a long time, and there is was an annual 'dictée' challenge broadcasted on TV for 20 years. It is also an integral part of school training from grade 2 to grade 9.

      It is probably harder than a spelling challenge because it is more varied. It can rely heavily on homophones that need understanding of the context use to deduce the right words, on non-voiced grammatical marks, in addition to the normal problems of spelling unusual words in a non-phonetic language.

    9. Re:English, itself, is broken by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Most Romance languages (and not only them) have pronunciation pretty close to Latin one...

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    10. Re:English, itself, is broken by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Erh... just noticed I didn't even answer the question.

      Generally, you will find strict grammar use (and especially Genitive use) mostly in high brow entertainment and discussion circles of people who want to sound high brow. Wrong use sounds to people who enjoy good grammar (and bluntly, I am one) horrible (seriously, wrong use of the Genitive because it sounds so "high brow" in German hurts the ear), and since the simplified use of Grammar has pretty much made it into mainstream colloquial German by now, it's no big deal if you stick to that.

      That way you can also forgo the future tense of verbs almost entirely (it's quite acceptable to use present if you indicate that the event will be in the future, e.g. "tomorrow we go swimming", or "when he is here (indicating that he will arrive in the foreseeable future) we go shopping"), you can do without subjunctive (just use the indicative and use additional words to indicate that it is a possibility, a claim or hypothetical situation, not a fact, e.g. "he said he is not here tomorrow" would be entirely fine, despite not using subjunctive or future tense, it's indicated that you repeat his speech (hence relaying his information, not a fact), and that it will be tomorrow, i.e. future).

      There are certainly a few more cases where you can get around complicated grammatic constructs with more simple ways, but in general people will already be amazed enough that you bothered to learn German at all to be pondering whether you used the right case, time or mood.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    11. Re:English, itself, is broken by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Don't forget those poor, completely confused people with DE as their second or third language...

      (even having decent pronunciation / living for a few years with grandfather from Leipzig didn't help much; OTOH Gmail ads often seem to think that my German is in fact Swedish, so perhaps it's just me...)

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    12. Re:English, itself, is broken by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would they spell it Füsik? The pronunciation didn't change, just the letters they use to represent the sound.

    13. Re:English, itself, is broken by loufoque · · Score: 1

      Contrary to what some have claimed in other parts of the thread, written language is not merely a transliteration of spoken language.
      Both forms of speaking have their advantages, and in practice, written language is able to convey a lot more that spoken language can, while spoken language is able to convey intonation better.

      It is faster to read than it is to speak, but you not only lose that advantage if you write phonetically, you make reading painfully slow; to me it becomes a deciphering exercise, since I have to read it in my head then try to hear what I "said" and put it back into words. Correct grammar also accelerates your understanding of the sentence structure.
      It is easier to mishear than it is to misread, and the written form of a sentence is less ambiguous than the spoken form.
      It is easier to understand unknown words with their written form, and the way they are written can often help you guess what they mean.
      Visualizing words is obviously much easier in their written form; and visualizing is very useful to organize thoughts.

      Seriously, what's wrong with the French? Learning to write French is like learning yet another foreign language.

      From my personal experience (I'm French, so I'm biased), pronunciation of French words from their written form is much more consistent than in English.
      There is almost no variation in the way a single letter or a combination of letters is pronounced, which is certainly not the case in English, where 'a' and 'e' change very often without consistent rules. In English, there are also many words that can be pronounced different ways, each way giving them a distinct meaning (heteronyms); the French language only has a couple of words like this ('fils' is the only purely French word that comes to mind, the others are probably limited to some English words that have been incorporated into French).
      I think the reasons the English have such a hard time with the written form of French is that they have problems with the idea of silent letters in a word, or that its writing may reflect its origin. English grammar is also so ridiculously simple than anything else appears overcomplicated. For example Latin, or even German, are much more complex than French grammatically.

    14. Re:English, itself, is broken by I8TheWorm · · Score: 1

      Apparently my skill with search engines isn't what I thought it was. I wanted to link to the two pretty funny items I simply described once I gave up searching.

      There was a Saturday Night Live skit where Dan Ackroyd (I think) spoke about shortening the English alphabet. All I remember from it was compressing lmnop into one long "letter" with the example "lmnopenis."

      Then the email that floated around for a while which suggested replacing some consonants and vowels until English wound up sounding more like German (it was a bit of a spoof on German world domination).

      --
      Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
    15. Re:English, itself, is broken by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is faster to read than it is to speak, but you not only lose that advantage if you write phonetically, you make reading painfully slow; to me it becomes a deciphering exercise, since I have to read it in my head then try to hear what I "said" and put it back into words.

      Well, that's mostly because you're used to a certain spelling. If you had learnt to read in a language where there is a more immediate correlation between written and spoken word, you'd still treat known written words as 'tokens' that you understand immediately, but you'd also have the ability to unambiguously pronounce any word you can read, and write any word you hear.

    16. Re:English, itself, is broken by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Because Füsik is pretty much how it's pronounced in German.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    17. Re:English, itself, is broken by myoparo · · Score: 1

      I studied Latin in school for many years and, yes, the Romance languages naturally are close in many ways to Latin, but there are a number of sound differences between them and Latin as spoken by the Romans. Sardinian, IIRC, is the closest Romance language to Latin in terms of pronunciation.

      Anyways, I wasn't referring to just the sound differences when I mentioned Latin. Did you know that up till roughly the 17th century people in Europe were expected to write in Latin (not just spelling) even though it was no longer anyone's native language. This is because writing in Latin had been the norm for thousands of years and to deviate from that would have seemed "uneducated". Learning to write in the middle ages basically meant you had to learn an additional language (Latin).

      Christopher Columbus wrote about America in Latin. Isaac Newton also wrote in Latin. Neither of them were native Latin speakers. Proper writing (and being taken seriously) meant writing in Latin.

    18. Re:English, itself, is broken by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      and the written form of a sentence is less ambiguous than the spoken form.

      I agree with just about everything else you said except for this. According the Oxford English Dictionary, the 500 most commonly used words have an average of 23 different meanings each (linky). This leaves a massive amount of room for ambiguity, allowing the same sentence to have a half dozen different meanings or more. Tone and emphasis play a huge part in disambiguating a sentence. The only way to disambiguate a written sentence is through context (which itself can be ambiguous) or completely re-structuring the sentence to remove the ambiguity.

      An example of an intentionally ambiguous sentence by Lehigh professor Robert Thornton (for use in writing "recommendations" for unworthy students):

      I would urge you to waste no time in making this candidate an offer of employment.

      The student is intended to read that as "Don't waste any time, hurry up and offer this candidate a job." The actual meaning intended, however, is "Don't waste your time by offering this candidate a job."

      The distinction is easy to make when spoken, by changing the tone of the statement, yet the only way to clarify it when written is to completely re-write the sentence (which, in this particular case, is entirely the point).

      In English, there are also many words that can be pronounced different ways, each way giving them a distinct meaning (heteronyms);

      It's far worse than that. Most words with multiple meanings are not pronounced differently at all. The word "round" has 70 distinct meanings, each of them pronounced exactly the same.

      English grammar is easy until you start throwing in the exceptions. What makes it difficult is the fact that there is an exception (or two, or three) for everything. They usually aren't so uncommon that you don't see them on a regular basis, either. They are just uncommon enough that it can be very difficult to remember them. You need to know a lot more than just the rules in order to speak proper English. You also need to know all the exceptions and when they apply. Worse still, there are exceptions that apply in one case out of several apparently similar cases. Why? Just because that's the way it is. It's the exceptions that usually throw people. Worse is when people learn an exception in one case and believe it applies in all similar cases, when in fact it only applies in that one specific case.

      One example that is so often screwed up it drives me insane:

      Bill and I went to the coffee shop and bought espresso for Dan, Cheryl, Bill and me.

      That is the correct way to write the sentence, yet it is extremely common for people to say "Bill and me went to the coffee shop". Upon learning their mistake (as this is often corrected immediately by anybody who knows better), the same person will often begin to say "for Dan, Cheryl, Bill, and I" which they had previously been saying correctly! And to people who don't know any better, using "I" in the objective case actually sounds better and less awkward than the correct "me"!

      That's just one example, and that's not even a mistake of exceptions, it's just a common misunderstanding of the rules. Pronouns are a source of all kinds of trouble - people almost always screw up it's and its. That one is an exception to the rules. Verb tenses, particularly the perfect tenses, are often screwed up.

      The easiest grammar I've ever seen is Japanese. They even go through the trouble of labeling the parts of the sentence when you write or speak it! Prepositions can be a little confusing, but it really isn't bad at all. The hardest part about it really is the yoda-like sentence structure. Once you figure that out it's downright glorious in its simplicity.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    19. Re:English, itself, is broken by Keen+Anthony · · Score: 1

      I'm a native German speaker, followed by British English. I speak American English daily as I live in the US, though I use British slang normally. To compound things even more, I'm southern German, and my dialect is a mix of proper German with southern Bavarian and Austrian words and phrases, especially for cooking. For example, I say "Champignons" instead of "Pilze" and "Grüß Gott" instead of "Guten Tag" where formality dictates. Language is so personal. I can understand people having a near revolt over any attempt to change one's language or even declare a formal, proper dialect.

      If there was ever an objective reason not to change the English writing system, or writing systems in general, is that we run the risk of losing the history of a word. I'm not just meaning the true origin of a word: Greek, Latin, etc., but also the journey a word takes over the centuries - the reasons "tomb", "comb", and "bomb" aren't pronounced the same. I suppose it only matters to language geeks though, eh?

    20. Re:English, itself, is broken by loufoque · · Score: 1

      This leaves a massive amount of room for ambiguity, allowing the same sentence to have a half dozen different meanings or more. Tone and emphasis play a huge part in disambiguating a sentence.

      Yes, you are right. As I said earlier, only spoken language is able to convey intonation well.
      I didn't mean that kind of ambiguities; I meant it in a mishearing context, as the beginning of the sentence you quoted implied. While you could badly interpret word boundaries when hearing, those are explicit when being read.

      One example that is so often screwed up it drives me insane:

      Bill and I went to the coffee shop and bought espresso for Dan, Cheryl, Bill and me.

      That is the correct way to write the sentence, yet it is extremely common for people to say "Bill and me went to the coffee shop". Upon learning their mistake (as this is often corrected immediately by anybody who knows better), the same person will often begin to say "for Dan, Cheryl, Bill, and I" which they had previously been saying correctly! And to people who don't know any better, using "I" in the objective case actually sounds better and less awkward than the correct "me"!

      It's simple: in English, pronouns are subject to declension.
      I don't see anything incredible or exceptional here.

      The hardest part about it really is the yoda-like sentence structure.

      Several languages other than Japanese also put verbs at the end of sentences.

    21. Re:English, itself, is broken by jabberw0k · · Score: 1
      Or bough, cough, tough, though, through.

      Phoenix, Arizona in the past few years has gone from the standard "There's slowing on US 60 and on I-10 by Route 101" to the irritating Southern Californianism "There's slowing on 'the' 60 and 'the' 10 by 'the' 101" and you would not believe the vitriol I got back from a few of the traffic reporters when I wrote and asked them to please, as journalists, use proper English. Did Nat King Cole sing "Get your kicks on 'the' 66?" Sheesh.

  23. As a parent by Fuzzums · · Score: 1

    you probably can't be more proud than the day when you find out your kid is a 1337 73xx70r...

    --
    Privacy is terrorism.
    1. Re:As a parent by yeshuawatso · · Score: 1

      Google brought up nothing for 1337 73xx70r, please translate for those of us who don't speak text-bonics.

    2. Re:As a parent by yeshuawatso · · Score: 1

      Never mind, I figured it out. Elite Textor.

    3. Re:As a parent by yeshuawatso · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I figured it out minutes after that post. My mistake was assuming the Leet was a particular phrase instead of two independent words, one word that is quite common.

  24. Umm by jav1231 · · Score: 1

    'There is no evidence that children's language play when using mobile phones is damaging literacy development.'"

    I give you...Facebook. A veritable cornucopia of evidence.

    1. Re:Umm by osu-neko · · Score: 1

      I give you...Facebook. A veritable cornucopia of evidence.

      Facebook certainly proves that a lot more people are writing than before. This, however, is not evidence for the point you were trying to make, but in fact tends to support the opposite. People writing mistake-ridden text are already more literate, and are more likely to improve in the future, than those who don't write at all. Facebook is also often informal -- writing like a lolcat is not evidence of damaged literacy development but of luv ov teh intarwebs. ;)

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    2. Re:Umm by jav1231 · · Score: 1

      People writing mistake-ridden text are already more literate, and are more likely to improve in the future, than those who don't write at all.

      This isn't logical. It's like saying that people that build un-square and un-level furniture are still better carpenters than those who build nothing. First, there may be plenty of people who don't build who have more knowledge and have built before. Or that people who write poorly worded novels are still better writers than those who don't write at all. You don't know the reason for those who aren't writing, building, or whatever. You know nothing about them.

      I would come closer to saying the opposite, in fact, in regards to Facebook.

  25. Depends on language by Waldeinburg · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I think it depends on the language. E.g. in Denmark we have a common joke that "written Norwegian [that is, Bokmål] is just Danish with spelling errors" because Norwegian words generally are spelled more in line with the phonetics of the language than it's the case in Danish. Furthermore, the vowels and consonants are flattened in the language of my generation which makes the connection to the "official spelling" of words less obvious. I don't see how the phonetic spelling creativity of text messaging is going to help then.

    1. Re:Depends on language by omglolbah · · Score: 1

      And likewise our common joke is that Danish is just speaking bokmål with a potato stuck in your throat ;)

      It is oddly fitting... I have a Danish boss and it hurts mah bwaaaain :p

  26. Well, something is affecting it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wouldn't be surprised if texting doesn't cause particular problems, but when I see university students who can't tell the difference between "they're" "their" and "there", "it's" and "its", "then and "than", and "where" and "were", there's something wrong with the way they are being taught to write. They aren't getting the feedback they need, they aren't getting enough practice, or something else. I'm fine with the inevitable evolution that occurs within the English language, but when the usage doesn't even make SENSE, then there's a serious problem. If I received a job application riddled with as many junior-high-school-level errors as I've seen, I certainly wouldn't be encouraged to hire the person.

  27. Re:Grammar Nazis by gblues · · Score: 0

    Hey, grammar Nazis. I can already tell that your evil little hearts are thumping with excitement around this article.

    I just wanted to tell you one thing, since you're all congregated in one place: fuck off! No one gives a shit if you are going around and correcting people with a snarky little "FTFY." You think you're intellectually superior or something, but you're not. I hear people complaining, "You should proof read!" or, "Pay more attention to misspelled words." Short answer: NO! This is not school. This is not a job. I derive no benefit from spending more time proof reading a post.

    So in the future, you should post logged in. That way, I can down mod you off-topic.

    FTFY.

  28. Re:Grammar Nazis by Voyager529 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'll ignore the multiple spelling/grammar/punctuation flaws in your post for the sake of making my point.

    You are Cwix, slashdot member #1671282. That is all I know about you, aside from what you write. Much of the internet is this way, though admittedly Facebook and texting imply some previous, and likely real-life relationship as well. Since the only further information others know about you is based on the content of your posts, the lack of proofreading and spellcheck running implies that accurately expressing yourself isn't valued. For the ladies, it's akin to wearing mismatched clothes or a wrinkled dress when going to a bar.

    How you say what you say is just as important as the message you're trying to convey. This is why grammar nazis like myself make it a point to express ourselves accurately. Sometimes it's expressed condescendingly, and I think that THAT is a problem (since it obviously doesn't help much), but summarily knocking the desire to express one's self accurately is shortsighted.

  29. Re:Grammar Nazis by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Awesome troll! Mod parent up!

  30. Playing with the language by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    Remember those Dr. Seuss books? And how he played with words to find his rhymes? Text messages seem to work on a similar level. Shortening messages by using homonymous and homophonic letters and even numbers seem to do the same for our kids.

    It can work adversely too. For me, it sure did sometimes with the English language (being no native speaker). I often learn words by tracing its root and then building on it. Which led me to write appearantly instead of apparently (since appear, i.e. "how something appears" is the root of the word), as well as accidently (because it's one of the few words where you don't simply add -ly to form the adverb).

    In general, the "play with it" approach served me well with English, though. It works great in Spanish and French too. You can take a lot of words and "hammer them into shape" given the rules of the language you want to work in.

    So while texting usually leads to wrong spelling, it seems our kids are well aware of it, and creating creative abbreviations for those words seems to spur their ability to actually understand. After all, they also gotta be able to read what their peers wrote.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  31. Re:Grammar Nazis by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 3, Informative

    I derive no benefit from spending more time proof reading a post.

    Actually, you do. Because if you look illiterate in your posts, many people will assume you're illiterate. Or stupid.

    Either of which means that they'll ignore anything you say as incoherent rambling.

    Note, by the way, that you used "your" repeatedly in your post. In all the cases you used it, it should have been "you're"....

    --

    "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
  32. Re:Grammar Nazis by markdavis · · Score: 1, Insightful

    "your"???

    You do realize that poor grammar makes you sound juvenile and uneducated. We are not talking about lack of proof-reading. The "your" example in your posting, above, is a perfect example. It is not that you misspelled a word, or made a typo, you just don't know the difference between "your" and "you're"!

    I am the first to admit that I am a horrible speller. But I know the correct words to use.... a spell checker can fix one, but it cannot fix the other. :)

  33. Daily demonstration this isn't true. by scotts13 · · Score: 1

    I spend a lot of time on automotive support forums. Obviously, people who ask for help have a vested interest in making their request as complete and readable as possible. They also have all the time, and all the characters, they want to do this. I'd say that up to 10% of requests, universally from younger posters, are incomprehensible. The result is they GET no help; people won't take the trouble to figure out what they mean. Or worse yet, they get incorrect advice through people not understanding them. If you ask them to ask again, in a more understandable way, the arrogance and hostility is amazing. "This isn't f*cking english class, just HELP ME!"

    1. Re:Daily demonstration this isn't true. by jayjayjay · · Score: 1

      And that's just asking for help with their car.....imagine if they need to quickly know how to give CPR or what do do if their baby just swallowed drain cleaner!

    2. Re:Daily demonstration this isn't true. by jayjayjay · · Score: 1

      And that's just asking for help with their car.....imagine if they need to quickly know how to give CPR or what do do if their baby just swallowed drain cleaner!

      OOPS! "what TO do if their baby..... I'm guilty of the same thing!

  34. Don't know about literacy, but ... by davidwr · · Score: 1

    Kids who text at least understand the concept of data compression!

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
    1. Re:Don't know about literacy, but ... by KingAlanI · · Score: 1

      I could see these encoded into a computer data-compression scheme, at least one focused on plain text (analogous to FLAC's focus on audio; as opposed to general-purpose compression like ZIP)

      --
      I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
  35. The beginning of the end... by puterg33k · · Score: 0

    There's an inherent danger within a society when the media pushes this kind of crap through all of its channels. Though, this has been happening for sometime, it's alarming to see intelligence folkes like yourselves hashing this out.

    1. Re:The beginning of the end... by cnkurzke · · Score: 1

      it's alarming to see intelligence folkes like yourselves

      alarming, indeed..... the average "intelligence[sic] of the folkes[sic]" on this forum seemz to decline monotonously.

  36. insanity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Your crazy. There spelling is terible. Were surrounded by idiot youth.

  37. And coloring books improve your art skills by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The study doesn't say much, because it was done on 9- and 10-year-old children. For students at that level, even a curmudgeon like me would expect texting to improve their writing skills. Show me that it improves the writing skills of high-schoolers or college students, and I'll start listening.

    1. Re:And coloring books improve your art skills by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From TFA:

      "The study also acknowledges that texting could exert a positive effect on literacy "because of the indirect way in which mobile phone use may be increasing children's exposure to print outside of school."

      The study did not test the effect of "textism" on spelling skills. It tested the effect of daily reading and writing. The control group should have been students who text daily using correct spelling only if they wanted to compare textspeak with standard English.

  38. Re:Grammar Nazis by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > a spell checker can fix one

    *cough*

    That should be spelling checker. It is checking the status of something, so we need to use a noun, not a verb.

    Carry on.

  39. Get to the real problem! by jayjayjay · · Score: 1

    It's not the bad grammer, the bad spelling, or the misuse of words that scares me.......it is the loss of original, logical, and constructive thought that is becoming more rampant. Just peruse Facebook, television, or message boards (even /. ) and you can quickly find dozens of samples of these. It is amazing how fast people go off subject. The average attention span has dropped by leaps and bounds. We solve problems (real or imagined) by just forgetting them and moving on to the next problem, or creating the next problem. OMG tht ws so 2 wks ago!

  40. Alternative English by NuKe_MoNgOoSe · · Score: 0

    There are several forms of the english language which are completly unique but still remain english. I remember the form of speach Pikeys use understandable to only a small population. Then there is my grandfather he lived his whole life in Newfoundland, for those who may not know this is a Canadian province. Native newfoundlanders contort the english language into something that few people from the Canada let alone the world can understand as well. The common line between these are that they are limited in scope to the region where they are used. The language of the internet is limited only to the people who use it, there is no regional boundary not one of measureable scope anyway. The only way to not be exposed to it is to not be on the internet.

    --
    When you dislike the human race as much as I do, Karma:Bad is inevitable lol.
  41. Re:Grammar Nazis by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

    Webster's Unabridged:

    spell checker,
    a computer program for checking the spelling of words in an electronic document. Also called spelling checker.
    [1980-85]

  42. Phonetics by fast+turtle · · Score: 1

    Although it's easiest to learn to speak English and the reason for this is the limited number of sounds - the last I read was 33 in the language. What drives people nuts is how screwy our rules of spelling and grammar are as they are derived from multiple sources, such as Welsh, Latin, French, German, Norman/Saxon and god only knows where else.

    What I would like to see is people forget the damn spelling rules and simply spell words as the sound as that allows people to concentrate on getting ideas across instead of worrying about spelling "to/too" correctly.

    --
    Mod me up/Mod me down: I wont frown as I've no crown
    1. Re:Phonetics by smellotron · · Score: 1

      What I would like to see is people forget the damn spelling rules and simply spell words as the sound as that allows people to concentrate on getting ideas across instead of worrying about spelling "to/too" correctly.

      Realize that "to/too" spelling does allow people to concentrate on getting ideas across. Consider these two sentence fragments:

      I want it to

      I want it too

      The former leaves a reader waiting for another word, whereas the latter is easily understood to mean agreement. In spoken language this is probably resolved by a combination of pitch and inter-word spacing.

  43. Re:Grammar Nazis by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

    It's not just that it makes him look stupid, it makes him look arrogant and thoughtless. Reading is a pattern-matching activity. When you encounter incorrect word use, you have to backtrack, try homophones and so on, and then continue once you've found a match that is semantically valid.

    Slashdot has about two million registered members, and each article receives a few hundred posts. At a conservative estimate, each post here will be read by a thousand people. If you can't be bothered to spend a few seconds to avoid the need for all of the other people to waste time while reading your post, it shows that you think that your time is worth more than theirs. Given the large number of readers, you are probably wasting a total of several minutes of other people's time, to safe a few seconds of yours. You are saying, before we even get to the content of your post, that your time is worth significantly more than your reader's time.

    An attitude like that does not endear the writer to the reader. It's rude, and not excused by the fact that it may be unintentionally rude.

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  44. Pot, meet kettle by chilbert · · Score: 1

    I also try to proofread what I write[...] The OED sites it as far back as 1849.

    *cites* it...

  45. chinese by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    unless, of course, you are Chinese and use pinyin to communicate via cell, instead of characters

  46. But is this due to texting? by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Young people will always be be young people. And old people will always be old people. One set has learned the rules of society and knowns that they exist to make things go smooth and the other does not. Young people also live in a world centered on them. They go to a school system that is all about them, are raised by parents who care for them, watch TV that is aimed at them. Surely the world must be about them!

    Well no. The full world, the world of adults is actually not about kids at all. Simple test, unless you are a parent or young, when are the school holidays in your region? Don't know? You did know when you were a kid. You will know when you are a parent. In fact in those circumstances the summer holiday is the center of your world. For the rest of adults? Sometime in the summer, maybe.

    Kids when dealing with the non-kid world find themselves suddenly surrounded by adults that really just don't fucking want to deal with them. Random adult X is not your mommy. So on such forums, people are not willing to first put the child at ease, deal with their temper tantrums or fragile ego's. The kid is not used to have to deal with people not at its beg and call and voila, the age gap is there. But this one has "always" been there, or at least since the modern child hood was invented by the Victorians.

    The generation gap is not just spelling. It is the simple attitude that has a teen first day on a temp job go to the sound system and put on his music... he just doesn't get that the pecking order changes from school to the workfloor. Oh some young kiddies will now protest, showing just how young and kidlike they are in the process.

    The people posting on your forums just haven't learned yet that if you want to interact with other people it helps to follow the common unspoken rules. But this is their age and selfcenteredness, not their spelling skills at work. Plenty of older people who are self-centered start a forum post with "HELP please" in the subject, forcing anyone to open the post to see what the actual problem is... bad spelling? No, just not being able to do the mental work that other people have their own lives and so if you want their help you ought to make that as smooth a process as possible.

    Just watch the number of people here who don't use the subject box to announce the content of their post making it more work to determine if its worth to open it if it hasn't been modded up yet.

    As people grow up, and this is more then gaining years, they learn that other people have their own lives and that by communicating effectively, they can have favors done more easily because ultimately it is less work. Kids don't just have the social skills yet. That is why they are kids.

    A simple example? I use paragraphs to make the text easier to read. Because I want YOU to read my posts, so I make it easy to do so. Read slashdot and see if you can find posts that are just one big block of text. Clearly such posters did NOT consider their audience capability to read the post comfortably. Not out of malice, just that knowing other people are human beings with their own feelings is not something that comes naturally to the young or self-centered.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

    1. Re:But is this due to texting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      , and this is more then gaining years

      Just saying, the irony of that in the context of TFA made me chuckle.

      irregardless of that i think ure insulting of my genraton is insult to all of us being unfair even while some (me) of us r not hard 2 intract wit @all.

    2. Re:But is this due to texting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      just a heads up, its not 'beg and call' but beckon call or beck and call

    3. Re:But is this due to texting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you wrote this in 140 characters or less, I might have read it.

    4. Re:But is this due to texting? by duguk · · Score: 1

      Young people will always be be young people. And old people will always be old people.

      Well, no... Young people tend to become old people, it just takes a while.

    5. Re:But is this due to texting? by CrazeeCracker · · Score: 1

      The people posting on your forums just haven't learned yet that if you want to interact with other people it helps to follow the common unspoken rules. But this is their age and selfcenteredness, not their spelling skills at work. Plenty of older people who are self-centered start a forum post with "HELP please" in the subject, forcing anyone to open the post to see what the actual problem is... bad spelling? No, just not being able to do the mental work that other people have their own lives and so if you want their help you ought to make that as smooth a process as possible.

      While I will concede that the kind of behaviour you describe is annoying and self-centered, and I do agree with the general spirit of your post (minus the get-off-my-lawn attitude), I really don't think it's an age-related issue. You don't know how old the people you describe are, because the only information you have is their username and the content/context of their post. Sure, sometimes this makes it fairly easy to infer all sorts of information about the poster, but it's also easy to fall into the trap of taking those inferences too far.

      Assumption: Most people "inhabiting" the internet are young (however you choose to define "young").
      Observation: A lot of immature behaviour online.
      Conclusion: Young people don't have the social finesse/foresight/whatever needed to effectively communicate.

      Sounds promising, but let me provide a counter-example as food for thought: the Internet as such is largely a "home" to the generations that are in their late twenties and below. We have seen a completely different set of 'unspoken rules' for social interaction pop up in the virtual world than the existing ones governing meatspace. In my experience, and like you point out yourself, a lot of people behaving stupidly on the internet are in fact older people (again, I'll leave the definition of "old" very loose) who just don't "get" these new rules. Sure, the majority of inflammatory Youtube comments (still the #1 font of online stupidity, even though with the comment rating system it's gotten a lot better now) are probably written by 14-ish year-olds who don't know better, but now (age 21) I see a greater proportion of people from my mother's generation using caps and exclamation marks in inappropriate quantities than I do from my own.

      In short, it's not just the gen. Z, post-post-baby-boomer generation gappers that are stupid; it's everyone.

      --
      Of course I didn't RTFA.
    6. Re:But is this due to texting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, basically, we should get off of your lawn?

    7. Re:But is this due to texting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is 'beck and call'; never 'beckon call'.

    8. Re:But is this due to texting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      TL; DR.

  47. making your own language by 0111+1110 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If a generation Z kid tries to communicate with me in their language I simply won't understand them. I do understand that their language serves a purpose in terms of manual data compression. As another poster pointed out you could just have the phone translate it into English after it has been transmitted. Yet it does isolate them from the rest of the world who doesn't speak their language. I highly doubt it helps their English skills in any way because what they are practicing is not English.

    I doubt that text messaging in txt language is in itself enough to make a good speller into a bad speller, but you are not going to find that out in a 10 week study. I think the argument is that children are getting too much of the wrong kind of language practice. They are getting a huge amount of practice in a language which does not exist outside of their group. It may be true that the txters who are poor spellers may have been poor spellers even without mommy's cell phone, and it's not like they would have had any writing practice outside of school anyway. But the txt spelling is constantly being reinforced. It would be very surprising indeed if this had no repercussions whatsoever outside of cell phone use.

    I personally believe that spelling is not the problem. Nowadays nearly everything written is written on a computer and computers have spell checkers. It's like being able to do mathematics in your head versus needing a calculator. Technology has made English spelling into a skill that is borderline archaic. And the fact that English is so absurdly non-phonetic also cannot be ignored. Maybe the language should gradually be changed to be spelled more like Spanish for instance. That would be moving in the direction of logic and progress. Txt language moves in exactly the opposite direction toward greater complexity in spelling. It is even more difficult to learn. Aside from the unnecessarily complicated spelling, the English language is one of the easiest in the world to learn. I have little doubt that that is the most important reason that it has replaced French as the international language, even though French is a much more beautiful language.

    I think the biggest problem with all the txting is that the 140 character limit in nearly all of their communication may encourage a short attention span when it comes to reading, listening, and maybe all forms of communication. Yes, it encourages brevity/conciseness as well, but at the expense of genuine literacy. It is simply not possible to communicate complex and subtle concepts in less than 140 characters. If you zone out any time a "wall of text" exceeds a few sentences you are going to have a lot of trouble understanding complex and subtle ideas. And if you limit your outgoing communications to no more than a few sentences at a time you are going to severely limit the complexity and subtlety of ideas that you can express. Eventually this laziness, lack of patience, and expectation that all information be received in easily digestible little pieces can become habitual and you won't realize that anything is wrong with the way you are processing information.

    --
    Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
    1. Re:making your own language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actly Eng is the hrdst 2 lrn dmbss.

  48. What happened to reading? by Vyse+of+Arcadia · · Score: 1

    When I was a kid, I'd read for fun. That was my "exposure to print outside of school." Don't kids read anymore?

    1. Re:What happened to reading? by scotts13 · · Score: 1

      Many do not. I work in schools, and have teenage nieces and nephews. I spoke to a 13-year old just this week who claimed never to have read a non-school book.

    2. Re:What happened to reading? by Apothem · · Score: 1

      It's too tedious. I know when I was growing up the only things I would even want to read were programming books and tutorials. However, that was only because I was getting something else out of it than just 'a good read'. Books just always seemed to be a tool more than entertainment.

    3. Re:What happened to reading? by KingAlanI · · Score: 1

      I did too; even for me, I now mainly read when sitting on the bus or otherwise unoccupied (sometimes it spills over to encompass finishing a book I started that way.)

      --
      I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
    4. Re:What happened to reading? by Totenglocke · · Score: 1

      No, because "reading is boring". Last Christmas my aunt and uncle gave me a gift card to Borders and my 16 year old cousin goes "What are you going to do with that?" I told him "Buy some books." His response? "Reading is boring". Unsurprisingly, he's on the football team and also failed English and had to retake it in summer school.

      Sadly, his response if far too common.

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
  49. Re:Grammar Nazis by Cwix · · Score: 1

    I'm not knocking your desire to express yourself properly. I'm knocking the desire to correct other people.

    --
    You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.
  50. Re:Grammar Nazis by gophish · · Score: 1

    Just to be a pedant, as that seems to be the prevalent mode of thought in this discussion thread, you clearly intended your first sentence as the interrogative:
    "You do realize that poor grammar makes you sound juvenile and uneducated, don't you?"
    Clearly the poster you were referring to didn't understand that, and you were asking the question. In latin:
    "Nonne scit, mala grammatica facit ineruditus et praetextatus sonas?"
    There. I hope you're all satisfied with the level of ridiculous over-reaction and mindless self-appreciation I put into this post. Grins!

  51. Define damaging by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    'There is no evidence that children's language play when using mobile phones is damaging literacy development.'

    I suppose Professor Wood has never graded papers of 6th graders. I question if young students can tell the difference between "language play" and the more formal language necessary for a short essay.

  52. Re:Grammar Nazis by osu-neko · · Score: 1

    If you want people to actually listen to you, you derive benefit from spending more time proofreading.

    If you don't want people to actually listen to you, why are you typing up the post in the first place? This seems like a special kind of stupid...

    --
    "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
  53. How do you spell "FISH" phonetically? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I remember a joke about phonetic spelling. A possible phonetic spelling of FISH is "GHOTI".

    GH as in the word "tough" is pronounced "F".
    O as in the word "women" is pronounced "I"
    TI as in the word "motion" is pronounced "SH"

    Thus GHOTI spells "fish". So much for phonetic spelling!

  54. Re:Grammar Nazis by markdavis · · Score: 1

    No, actually I did not mean for it to be constructed interrogatively. It was apparent by his tonality that he already knew he sounded juvenile and uneducated. :)

  55. Stephen Fry on Language by FoolishOwl · · Score: 1
    1. Re:Stephen Fry on Language by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      Wonderful rant!

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    2. Re:Stephen Fry on Language by FoolishOwl · · Score: 1

      I probably should have pointed out that in that the video is an animation layered upon a monologue by Stephen Fry, on his love of language, and how pedantry about grammar is NOT evidence of a love of language, but a failure to appreciate its malleability and potential.

      Stephen Fry is a British humorist known for his monologues involving elaborate play with language. Watching some episodes of "A Bit of Fry and Laurie" is rewarding.

  56. Also, change takes time by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

    I was still in school when they switched over and even I have little to no idea about the new rules. As a result I now use an inconsistent mix of the old and new rules.

    That's fairly common with people who were switched over halfway through their education and it'll take us a generation to get the old rules out of the system, simply because everyone above a certain age has still learned the old ones. And this is with a few minor changes. Large changes like what would be neccessary to align English pronounciation and spelling probably would take several steps, which would take correspondingly long.

    Well, unless you do a radical change that means that either everyone relearns the language or your change is completely ignored. And we all know what would be the more likely outcome.

    --
    USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
  57. Level of writing skillz in this post is 5C4RY by cnkurzke · · Score: 1

    This hits one of my sore spots.

    English is NOT my first (not even my second) language, and yet - I am constantly baffled by the utter lack of spelling of the "natives".

    Reading through the answers to this post, and seeing how people who criticize "kids" for their spelling can't themselves keep their own posts correctly worded is amusing and saddening at the same time.

    I don't think anyone even noticed yet in the summary, quote: "Professor Claire Wood. 'There is no evidence that children's language play when using mobile phones is damaging literacy development.'""
    10 mod points for anyone correctly pointing out the verb in this sentence? Anyone, anyone?

    I know that "real languages" are dying, but i wonder if we are just "evolving" or in fact "devolving" our culture.

    When I saw the movie "idiocracy" for the first time, i thought it was a hilarious comedy. Now I start to get second thoughts and start to wonder......

    1. Re:Level of writing skillz in this post is 5C4RY by Zhila+the+Great+Z · · Score: 1

      I personally do not see anything grammatically wrong with that sentance. I even mentally broke it down into a grammar tree. The main verb of the sentence is "is." There is also a dependant clause, and it's verb is "is damaging." When you start to take out basic modifiers (such as "no" in "no evidence," "children's" and "language" from "children's language play," the prepositional adverb phrase "when using mobile phones" and "literacy" from "literacy development" you end up with an easy to understand sentence "There is evidence that play is damaging development." (Note, this has a different meaning as important modifier words and phrases were removed.)

      After carefully dissecting the sentence, I can now see how it could be interpreted otherwise, as the word "when" can be used either as a preposition (as it was intended in this sentence) or as a subordinating conjuction which would then require a full clause, infering that the verb "is damaging" then be part of the adverb clause, leaving no verb for the adjective clause.

    2. Re:Level of writing skillz in this post is 5C4RY by scotts13 · · Score: 1

      BTW, it's well worth reading the short story which ostensibly inspired "Idiocracy" - "The Marching Morons", by C.M. Kornbluth.

  58. Re:Grammar Nazis by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually, on Slashdot poor spelling and grammar might make you look like a moron. But on most other sites, it makes you "normal".

    It's like showing up at a party in a suit and tie when everyone else is wearing jeans and polo shirts. It's uncool.

    The internet is full of so many people who don't bother to spell stuff properly or look at what they typed before hitting submit that it's mutually reinforcing.

  59. Re:Grammar Nazis by Veinor · · Score: 1

    You failed to capitalize 'Slashdot'. The adjective 'previous' doesn't have a noun to modify. You should hyphenate 'spellcheck-running'. Usage of all-caps for emphasis is probably ungrammatical, but I might let that slide. Man, the grammar Nazis are really sliding in quality these days.

  60. Re:Grammar Nazis by I8TheWorm · · Score: 1

    I always hated it when my teachers and my parents corrected me. I'm certain I could have become better at everything I ever tried without their constant correction ;)

    --
    Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
  61. Bigger than Spelling; But use Wordly Wise by Oxford_Comma_Lover · · Score: 1

    > Years after getting out of the system, I still saw high school seniors in honors programs who couldn't spell worth a damn.

    I have a friend who teaches intro composition classes at one of the largest US Universities. The first year students wrestle with trying to write (or think about) anything in the abstract.

    I went to one of the best colleges in the US, and people considered my writing skills excellent. But I know, in retrospect, how little I knew. (I'm sure I'll know more about how little I know now in the future.) I wrote tens or hundreds of thousands of lines of code, but probably well under 500 pages of English prose in all that time, and with no real skills-building. I did not learn how to proofread English well until after college, when I had been writing and editing novels for a few years. And it took those few years to learn.

    The problem is a lot bigger than spelling.

    (Although for spelling, use the Wordly Wise books, if they're still out and like they were. Every child you teach with them will hate how much work it is, a little, But they'll get used to it and they'll learn A LOT more than they do with most spelling books. Our school switched to them around 4th or 5th grade, from... maybe Laidlaw? The difference was amazing.)

    --
    -- IANAL, this isn't legal advice, and definitely isn't legal advice for you. Also, Squee!
  62. An Experiment! by Oxford_Comma_Lover · · Score: 1

    > And yet the rate of instances in which I want to punch these texting douchebags repeatedly in the face is trending upwards.

    Quick! Someone get a control group!

    --
    -- IANAL, this isn't legal advice, and definitely isn't legal advice for you. Also, Squee!
  63. Re:Grammar Nazis by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How does he in any way benefit from hiding the fact that he's illiterate or stupid from people who would not recognize him if they met him?

  64. Re:Grammar Nazis by Totenglocke · · Score: 1

    Exactly. The people saying that spelling doesn't matter are the same ones who get turned down for jobs due to their inability to spell when writing a resume and then blame the employer for it. I know a very qualified person who sent out dozens of resumes after getting laid off but wrote "collage" instead of "college" on their resume. Guess how many interviews he had....

    --
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
  65. regarding that sort of ADD by KingAlanI · · Score: 1

    I think the biggest problem with all the txting is that the 140 character limit in nearly all of their communication may encourage a short attention span when it comes to reading, listening, and maybe all forms of communication. Yes, it encourages brevity/conciseness as well, but at the expense of genuine literacy. It is simply not possible to communicate complex and subtle concepts in less than 140 characters. If you zone out any time a "wall of text" exceeds a few sentences you are going to have a lot of trouble understanding complex and subtle ideas. And if you limit your outgoing communications to no more than a few sentences at a time you are going to severely limit the complexity and subtlety of ideas that you can express. Eventually this laziness, lack of patience, and expectation that all information be received in easily digestible little pieces can become habitual and you won't realize that anything is wrong with the way you are processing information.

    Yeah, I write forum posts of a few hundred words (perhaps low thousands), and people act like it's a dissertation. I could stand to trim my writing, I'll admit, but not down that far

    By the way, I tend to avoid txt-speak even when I actually am texting. sometimes I get ungrammatical to fit within 140/160 characters, though.

    --
    I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
  66. Re:Grammar Nazis by markdavis · · Score: 1

    So everyone should lower their grammatical standards to "fit in"??? Somehow that doesn't seem right. I don't think people should obsess over spelling and typos for informal forum postings, but using the proper words shouldn't be demonized :)

  67. Great Spellers? Maybe... by _0rm_ · · Score: 1

    But tlaking 2 me liek this can b bad 4 yuor health.

    --
    Boredom is bliss.
  68. Re:Grammar Nazis by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

    Writing poorly makes you sound like a dumbass.

    Should you really be upset at a group of people who are so fervently dedicated to helping you sound smarter?

    The tools of correction may be cruel, but they are effective. Perhaps if you cared a little more about what you wrote the grammar nazi's would not be such a problem.

    Nobody is saying you're stupid. They're just saying you sound stupid. ;)

    --
    Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
  69. Re:Grammar Nazis by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

    +1 Funny

    --
    Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
  70. Re:Grammar Nazis by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1. The plural of "nazi" is "nazis".

    2. "Nazi" need not be capitalised if you're not talking about the National Socialist German Workers Party.

  71. I see more links to "likes" than actual writing by tkprit · · Score: 1

    If it's not the "copy this to your status if you believe [X]", there are links to likes (they apparently spend time browsing other people's likes on (I guess) "like sites", then hit "Like".

    (Okay, to be fair, I've seen this from adults as much as kids.)

    That being said, some of my kids' friends actually use the "Notes" section of FB as a blog of sorts, primarily to rant about something in school, but that does count as 'writing'. I think it's more likely they'd use FB than make their own site or sign up for blogger. And I've noticed their grammar/spelling improves a lot when using the "Notes" section of FB.

  72. txtng sux by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    i dnt thnk txtng is 4 evry1 or evrythng
    Sure, you can read this, but it's an absolute fucking mess.

    Saying texting makes you a better speller is like saying ebonics should be a standardized curriculum because so many people talk slang. Language adapts naturally over time, but this is a bastardization of it. If you think I'm full of shit, try being from the US and listen to somebody speaking Cockney. The words are English, but the meaning is gibberish to most folks. Same with texting.

    When technology places constraints (like texting), people will find ways to make it easier to use. The problem is that our language is being adapted to the technology and not the other way around. Let's make the technology work for us instead of against us.

  73. Re:Grammar Nazis by Lunzo · · Score: 1

    This is not a job

    Poor spelling doesn't just hamper communication on internet forums. I wish some of my co-workers would take the time to proofread. Their comments on our issue tracker can at times be impossible to decipher.

  74. Typo by MistrX · · Score: 1

    The title of this news item contains a typo.