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LotR Rewritten From a Mordor Perspective

Hugh Pickens writes writes "It's been said that history is written by the winners but Laura Miller writes in Salon about a counterexample as she reviews a new version of Lord of the Rings. The Last Ring-bearer was published to acclaim in Russia by Kirill Yeskov, a paleontologist whose job is reconstructing long-extinct organisms and their way of life. Yeskov performs essentially the same feat in his book. The Last Ring-bearer is set during and after the end of the War of the Ring and told from the perspective of the losers. In Yeskov's retelling, available in translation as a free download, the wizard Gandalf is a war-monger intent on crushing the scientific and technological initiative of Mordor and its southern allies because science 'destroys the harmony of the world and dries up the souls of men' and Aragorn is depicted by Yeskov as a ruthless Machiavellian schemer who is ultimately the puppet of his wife, the elf Arwen. Sauron's citadel Barad-dur is, by contrast, described as 'that amazing city of alchemists and poets, mechanics and astronomers, philosophers and physicians, the heart of the only civilization in Middle-earth to bet on rational knowledge and bravely pitch its barely adolescent technology against ancient magic.'"

583 comments

  1. Great book by KiloByte · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's a great book, I've read it ten years ago, in the Polish translation.

    Quoting Wikipedia: "fear of the vigilant and litigious Tolkien estate has heretofore prevented its publication in English". Tell me again, how exactly copyright encourages creation of new works?

    --
    The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
    1. Re:Great book by bunratty · · Score: 1, Informative

      Okay... I'll tell you again. If there was no copyright, then everyone could simply copy the works of authors and they may not end up being paid for their work. If authors might not be paid for their work, there would be fewer authors. Copyright and patent law are all about making sure the people who did the work are compensated for their work and not ripped off. This helps ensure they will do the work.

      --
      What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
    2. Re:Great book by giuseppemag · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It is published in English for free, and so far no litigations have happened. In this copyright is simply stopping this guy from taking *commercial* advantage of the huge amount of work done in creating the setting for his story.

      This said, if they decide to go after this book after all then they should be hanged by their testicles...

      --
      My book: Friendly F#, fun with game development and XNA; my game: Galaxy Wars by VSTeam; my gamedev language: Casanova.
    3. Re:Great book by snaggen · · Score: 5, Insightful

      exactly! Without copyright nothing of any quality would ever be written. It would all just be the cheap amateurish crap like shakespear and mozart. Thank god for copyright so we can enjoy good culture like die hard 4 and Britney Spears.

    4. Re:Great book by vadim_t · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Copyright is needed, but it's currently far too long.

      Tolkien has been dead and buried for 38 years now. His estate is preventing the translation from being published for what reason exactly? Where's the benefit to society from that?

    5. Re:Great book by paziek · · Score: 1

      Sure, but didn't they go a "bit" overboard with it? I mean years after death of the author its still copyrighted? How much does author at that point care or earn money from it? Sure publisher could pay more if he knows he will have copyrights for it for long time and hence profit for longer... but this way we could as well make copyright don't expire at all - even more profit for the "author"! There needs to be drawn a line between ridiculous and artwork users interests. I would rather have copyright expire in no more than 5 years and get spin-offs soon - or at least make "fair use" more broad, so that you can make sequels or alternative versions to existing works without infringing on copyright. I also read that book in Polish and was very surprised its news here on slashdot that it exists. We all are loosing here on some possibly good stuff if copyright won't go back to how it was originally - "Initially copyright law only applied to the copying of books. Over time other uses such as translations and derivative works were made subject to copyright and copyright now covers a wide range of works" - give THAT back.

    6. Re:Great book by thijsh · · Score: 5, Funny

      Oh, I know the answers: 'greed' and 'none'. I shall now claim this free PDF as my prize...

    7. Re:Great book by bunratty · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I would have to agree that the copyright and patent systems could be better. But abolishing them altogether could be disastrous. They do serve a purpose.

      Perhaps the car analogy is that thousands are killed by cars every year, but abolishing cars could be a disaster. Just because you can think of a disadvantage of something doesn't mean it's all bad and should be abolished. Too many times what I say is reduced to "X is all good" or "X is all bad". There are tradeoffs. Life isn't black and white.

      --
      What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
    8. Re:Great book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If there was no copyright, then everyone could simply copy the works of authors and they may not end up being paid for their work. If authors might not be paid for their work, there would be fewer authors.

      That's a hell of a lot of hypotheticals in such a short passage. Are you SURE you have evidence to back up your claims? I vaguely recall something about a few millenia of Aristotles, Homers, Shakespeares and Mozarts that seemed to do just fine...

      Copyright and patent law are all about making sure the people who did the work are compensated for their work and not ripped off. This helps ensure they will do the work.

      Gee, I didn't know it was the government's job to ensure people are getting paid for their work, at least not in any economic regime other than socialism. In a real free market, the authors themselves are responsible for finding ways to get paid, and the internet is now providing them with ample such opportunities to try new business models.

      As for patent law, competition and first-mover advantage are more than enough to compensate innovators, which is precisely why those things are held much higher in the capitalist doctrine than any fake monopoly rights anyone can devise.

    9. Re:Great book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      > Where's the benefit to society from that?
      And where is benefit for Tolkien from that too.

    10. Re:Great book by mike2R · · Score: 2, Informative

      Shakespear was published under a regime of perpetual copyright.

      --
      This sig all sigs devours
    11. Re:Great book by Nominei · · Score: 1

      Okay... I'll tell you again. If there was no copyright, then everyone could simply copy the works of authors and they may not end up being paid for their work. If authors might not be paid for their work, there would be fewer authors. Copyright and patent law are all about making sure the people who did the work are compensated for their work and not ripped off. This helps ensure they will do the work.

      Sure, everyone "could" copy. But would they? Being technically minded as I am, I "could" illegally download just about any ebook I want. However, I buy my ebooks, because I have a real reason to buy - the distribution system is convenient, the price is not exorbitant, and I want to support the author so that he can afford to keep writing (and thus later I get to buy a sequel). I tell you what DOESN'T make me buy books - copyright. Copyright has become a sham law that is only observed by those who are already willing to pay for content, and is blatantly ignored by those who wouldn't pay anyway. Tell me this - why is a book written 61 years ago now a legal bogeyman that stifles the distribution of the creative works of a modern author? Copyright was intended to give a modest protection (originally, 14 years) to an author in a time when there was no means to verify authenticity of creative works. Copyright proponents have turned this into lifetime plus 70 years, so that the children and grandchildren of successful authors can be protected from, what, new authors creating derivative works?

    12. Re:Great book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If anything you've proven how much *more* copyright is needed today. pre-copyright fellows had the advantage of people not just making copies as they seen fit. We simply do not have that dynamic in play anymore.

    13. Re:Great book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Copyright has nothing to do with this because it "does not protect ideas, only their expression" (quote from Wikipedia). Intellectual property is much much more than just copyright... This is most probably an issue with trademarks or similar, rather than copyright. The text seems to be independently written (i.e. not by copying Tolkien's texts), even though it contains ideas, names and themes from Tolkien's famous books. That's completely ok as far as copyright is concerned (no copying, no problem).

    14. Re:Great book by vbraga · · Score: 3, Informative

      Shakespeare had copy rights for his work!

      From the The Oxford companion to Shakespeare

      :

      The acting companies for which Shakespeare wrote held the legal copy rights to his manuscripts. Theater historians have traditionally maintained that players were reluctant to allow their plays to be printed, either because they feared losing exclusive acting rights to another company or because they believed that the sale of printed texts might reduce the demand for performances.

      I don't know about Mozart.

      --
      English is not my first language. Corrections and suggestions are welcome.
    15. Re:Great book by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't want to abolish it, but I'd like to make it much shorter.

      My idea is that copyright is supposed to serve society's interests. For that it should aim to maximize the incentive to produce works. And that means it can't be too long. It can't be too short either, as there must be time to make some money. Copyright must allow authors to make money from their work, but avoid providing a perpetual money supply.

      I think that the very maximum length of copyright should be 30 years. The number is based on the idea of that an author should have an incentive to publish at least a second work, after their copyright expires. So assuming one published a book at 20, copyright would expire at 50, providing some motivation to write another.

      There was research that suggested the optimal length would be around 14 years. That sounds good to me.

    16. Re:Great book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hung.

    17. Re:Great book by commodore6502 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      >>>If there was no copyright, then everyone could simply copy the works of authors and they may not end up being paid for their work.

      They aren't paid now.
      Numerous authors have to sue RIAA or MPAA-affiliated companies, just to get paid. Example: The corporation that made Lord of the Rings claimed "we made no profit" and paid the director, scriptwriter, actors, and Tolkien's family nothing. Ditto Titanic and Avatar and Forrest Gump and.....

      So explain again how copyright is "good"? These authors would be better off sticking a Paypal button in their books & asking for donations - they'd make more money than the lying asshat corporations pay them.

      --
      Information wants to be expensive AND wants to be free. So you have Value vs. Cheap distribution fighting each other.
    18. Re:Great book by airfoobar · · Score: 2

      "Modern" copyright came over a hundred years after Shakespeare's death with the Statute of Anne. The "copy rights" you see there were most likely the "queen's licensing rights" that functioned as a form of censorship of what could be printed by the publishers.

    19. Re:Great book by Archon-X · · Score: 1

      Actually, hanged.

    20. Re:Great book by mysidia · · Score: 3, Informative

      Quoting Wikipedia: "fear of the vigilant and litigious Tolkien estate has heretofore prevented its publication in English". Tell me again, how exactly copyright encourages creation of new works?

      It enables authors to profit, by actually having a market, which encourages publishers to pay authors and authors to write books, without banning any technology -- especially now; without copyright, there'd be not enough profit in publishing books.

      After limited times, meaning a short amount of time, the duration of the copyright expires, and new works can be made based on the old work. This is how copyright avoids stifling new works -- old works' copyright expires. This promotes progress in the arts and sciences because there is now not much (if any) profit in rehashing old works.

      Promoting progress means encouraging new works, and since copyright protections only apply to new works (that is: works that are so new, that they are still subject to copyright), new works are encouraged.

      You basically have 3 choices... (A) Have copyright, (B) Ban sale/possession of electronic/mechanic devices capable of copying or rendering books except by 'licensed publishers' (essentially -- personal computers would be banned), or (C) Have few/no books, because there's no profit un publishing to be made making and selling large books. The few books that could exist would be advertising supported.

    21. Re:Great book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's probably because this is not about copyright at all, but rather about trademarks or some other kind of intellectual property. Intellectual property is not the same as copyright. There are much more to it, but most people seem to be unaware of that and blame it all on copyright... Look up trademarks at Wikipedia, for example. My guess is that it's the biggest problem here (unless he has actually copied parts of Tolkien's texts when writing his own).

    22. Re:Great book by airfoobar · · Score: 1

      No! Video games kill people!

    23. Re:Great book by commodore6502 · · Score: 0

      >>>My idea is that copyright is supposed to serve society's interests.

      Copyright isn't even a "right". In nature there's no right to keep your idea to yourself, and in fact the idea spreads freely from person-to-person without loss of usefulness. However society has decided to grant the *privilege* to the author of a temporary monopoly.

      But like all monopolies it needs to be regulated, restrained, and eventually broken-up to restore freedom to the market. Comcast does not have a right to have a perpetual monopoly, and neither does Tolkien.

      --
      Information wants to be expensive AND wants to be free. So you have Value vs. Cheap distribution fighting each other.
    24. Re:Great book by JAlexoi · · Score: 2, Funny

      I don't think that total illiteracy can be considered as "perpetual copyright".

      PS: And author's attribution right, is nothing a sensible thing. While copy right is rather stifling....

    25. Re:Great book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Copyright is necessary to prevent unauthorized copying and selling (well I don't currently really believe that since piracy still exists but let's assume that's so). The problem is that copyright is no longer about doing that. It's about content creators treating works like brands and not letting anyone else play in their sandbox without paying them. I'm all for copyright that stops unauthorized copies but I am against any mechanism that stops others from writing by treating basic concepts and phrases like a trademark. That is especially true for works where the creator has been dead for four decades.

    26. Re:Great book by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1

      Where's the benefit to society from that?

      Benefit : you get this new work for free.

      Another way to fight against copyright : let greed go to increased and increased madness, let them copyright ideas, let them copyright words. Then new works will be impossible to copyright, they will have to be released anonymous and for free. Let the world without copyright come from the greed of right holders (or grand-grand-children of copyright holders)

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    27. Re:Great book by zippthorne · · Score: 2

      In nature there's also no right to not get eaten by bears, or murdered by you neighbor....

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    28. Re:Great book by airfoobar · · Score: 1

      After limited times, meaning a short amount of time, the duration of the copyright expires, and new works can be made based on the old work. This is how copyright avoids stifling new works -- old works' copyright expires. This promotes progress in the arts and sciences because there is now not much (if any) profit in rehashing old works.

      Is that fantasy or sci-fi?

    29. Re:Great book by Stenchwarrior · · Score: 2

      I'm "hung" by my testicles, but if you strung me up by my balls, then I'd be "hanged". He was right.

      --
      Loading...
    30. Re:Great book by Jason+Levine · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I agree. Lord of the Rings was first published in 1954 and 1955. According to current copyright law (assuming no extensions are passed, which is a huge assumption), the copyright will end in 2049/2050. It's been under copyright for about 56 years already and still has about 39 to go. I know the Tolkien estate profits off of Lord of the Rings, but I don't see how that encourages new works. Yes, we got the LoTR movies, but those could have been made if LoTR passed into the public domain. The only people who would lose out would be the children/grandchildren of JRR Tolkien.

      Of course, even worse is Gone With The Wind. It was published in 1936 and is still considered to be under copyright protection 75 years later. We need to wait until 2031 until it enters the Public Domain. Meanwhile, the author, Margaret Mitchell, has been dead for 62 years. Her children (if she had any, I can't find any reference to kids) would be grown up by now with grandkids of their own. Copyright was not intended to be a paycheck for your great-grandkids.

      A fair copyright term would be 20 years plus a one time 20 year renewal. (And I'm being generous as I think the ideal would be 14/14.) Under this, Lord of the Rings would have passed into the public domain in 1994/1995. In fact, under this copyright term length, anything published before 1971 would be in the public domain. How many works published prior to 1971 create substantial income for their authors (or their estates)? How many languish in obscurity because no publishing house wants to re-release them and small presses can't secure the rights to print them? How many derivative works could be made from stories that are over 40 years old (thus bringing the originals back into the public light)?

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    31. Re:Great book by LordNacho · · Score: 2

      Well, why make time the only parameter? If you're interested in new works related to something existing, how about you just say "when you've made 5M bucks off your book, it's off copyright"? That way hot topics can be written about in soon after they break, and many different authors might benefit in a short period of time. At the same time, people who've written niche stuff can continue to collect royalties for many years.

    32. Re:Great book by Kokuyo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Whenever someone says that without copyright, nothing of value would be created anymore, I just have to think back to Pablo Picasso and all the riches he amassed through his art. After all, without copyright, everyone could have copied him and thus taken away his well deserved reward without which he would never have painted in the first place.

      Oh wait...

    33. Re:Great book by Guido+von+Guido · · Score: 5, Informative

      Shakespear was published under a regime of perpetual copyright.

      Which is why Hamlet and King Lear, among other plays, are thought to be reworkings of older plays.

      At the time England didn't have copyright laws. They did have the Stationer's Company, which was the printers' guild. In theory once a printer entered a work into the Stationer's Company Register, other printers weren't able to print a copy of that work. In practice, this wasn't well enforced, and publishers often printed works registered to other printers. The first actual copyright law didn't come until the 18th century.

    34. Re:Great book by mysidia · · Score: 1

      Is that fantasy or sci-fi?

      Eh? It's the supreme law of the land, in the US, it is written into the constitution

    35. Re:Great book by somersault · · Score: 1

      In nature there's no right to keep your idea to yourself

      Of course there's nothing forcing you to give your ideas to other people either, so rights or not, many people are keeping their ideas to themself. I think you mean that in nature, nothing can stop someone copying your idea if they find out about it.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    36. Re:Great book by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Personally, I would like to see copyright of somewhere around 30 years with purchasable extensions of 5-10 (actually, I would go with a base copyright of 10-15 years, with the initial extension being for a very nominal amount). Each time you pruchase an extension to copyright the cost of that extension goes up. There are aguments aginst it, but I think it is something you could make very difficult for corporations to mount a public relations campaign against. This would allow a company like Walt Disney to keep control of business critical IP. On the other hand, if the price was set right, they wouldn't be able to afford to sit on the products and only release them every 20 years or so.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    37. Re:Great book by airfoobar · · Score: 1

      Ah, the magnum opus of the great comedic minds of Franklin, Washington, Jefferson et al. Spoiler alert: The words "limited time" were of course added for ironic effect, as they were a reference to "forever minus a day".

    38. Re:Great book by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      If somebody came along and recorded a bunch of Britney Spears songs, as bad as they are, that's still not fair to the original artist (I use the term loosely). Copyright doesn't ensure quality, it ensures due compensation.

    39. Re:Great book by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      The original owner of a work may be dead, but the franchise lives on. Shouldn't the franchise holders be protected from losing their investment to copy-cats?

      If George Lucas died today, should Star Wars immediately become public domain, even when there's a huge MMO and lots of movie memorabilia with full licensing and lots of money still to be made by the people who paid for the right to do so?

    40. Re:Great book by bunratty · · Score: 1

      How do you copy original works of art? Besides, I never said nothing of value would be created any more. I said there would be fewer things of value produced if works could be copied freely without the people who did the work getting paid. Perhaps some works would be commissioned by people who wouldn't need to make their money back, but I don't think any Hollywood type movies would be made if any theater could legally make a copy and show the film without paying the film company.

      --
      What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
    41. Re:Great book by Compaqt · · Score: 5, Informative

      >Shakespear was published under a regime of perpetual copyright.

      Well, I'm no expert, but this guy from Duke says Shakespeare was written before the "Statute of Anne" or any other copyright law:

      http://library.duke.edu/blogs/scholcomm/2011/02/18/shakespeare-and-copyright/

      --
      I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
    42. Re:Great book by vadim_t · · Score: 2

      It seems to me that it's easier to figure out a good time limit than a monetary one.

      Say, the $5M. Why precisely that number? How do you adapt to the economy? $5M in 10 years might be $1M today. Also some works are expensive. That would make big movies go out of copyright right in the first week.

    43. Re:Great book by stewbacca · · Score: 1, Troll

      Benefit : you get this new work for free.

      I'm not sure how more free-loaders benefits society.

    44. Re:Great book by bunratty · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Mozart's works were generally commissioned by the wealthy. Without copyright, we'd likely go back to a patronage system, and as a result we'd have significantly fewer books and movies. We'd have theater and music, because actors and musicians could charge audiences to see shows. We'd likely have television because broadcasters could keep shows from being copied until they were shown with ads. Books and movies, however, could be copied and distributed without money going back to the people who produced them.

      --
      What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
    45. Re:Great book by stewbacca · · Score: 2

      I didn't know it was the government's job to ensure people are getting paid for their work,

      You aren't paying attention then:

      Employee Retirement Income Security Act (ERISA)
      Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA)
      Family and Medical Leave Act (FMLA)
      Federal Employee Compensation Act (FECA)
      Occupational Safety and Health Administration Act (OSHA)
      Unemployment Compensation
      Uniformed Services Employment and Reemployment Rights Act

      That's just a few for starters.

    46. Re:Great book by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      Gee, I didn't know it was the government's job to ensure people are getting paid for their work, at least not in any economic regime other than socialism.

      Here's more from the actual Department of Labor. Sorry, but just because you don't think it's the government's job to ensure people are being compensated fairly doesn't make it so:

      http://www.dol.gov/compliance/laws/main.htm

      And I think you are confusing statism with socialism.

      And sorry to double-reply, but your comment truly irks me.

    47. Re:Great book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      shakespeare lived before the reign of queen anne, who pretty much invented copyright. so no.

      besides, he made his living in the theater. his plays weren't actually "published" until after his death.

    48. Re:Great book by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 2

      Well, one of the rights that comprises copyright is the right to prohibit others from preparing a derivative work, which the novel discussed here would qualify as. So it probably is a copyright issue. Whatever trademarks are involved, they'd really only derive their power, in this context, from the copyright to begin with, as trademarks are not allowed to function as a substitute for copyrights.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    49. Re:Great book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've never understood why slashdotters use car analogies so much. Surely most of us trolling in the comments here don't have cars, or we'd be off doing fun things like getting to work.

    50. Re:Great book by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      You are confusing the issue. The issue isn't if people will pay for content for their own consumption. The issue is that other authors shouldn't be allowed to copy your work, then put it on the market to profit as if it were their own.

      If you just took The Hobbit and rewrote it and put your name on it and sold it on Amazon, then made a few hundred thousand dollars, that's completely different than random guy in his mom's basement downloading The Hobbit and not paying for it.

    51. Re:Great book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Fuck the idea of "due compensation". Should a mason be paid in perpetuum for the work he did on a store front? The architect that designed a building, should he or she also be paid for an arbitrarily long time while the building is used? The people you mention are performers and they should make their living by performing, not by being paid whenever a single recording of a song is played.

    52. Re:Great book by hldn · · Score: 2

      there is, however, the right to defend yourself from bears and murderous neighbors.

      --
      http://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
    53. Re:Great book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why is this insightful? IT blatantly ignores one side of the argument, for which a great case can be made, with nothing more than pithy sarcasm. No wonders such asshats get elected to public office.

    54. Re:Great book by Goboxer · · Score: 1

      They probably could publish it in english as a work of parody, which falls under fair-use, and which the courts have been more than willing to uphold (Fair Use and Parody). The Tolkien estate might sue, but I doubt they would win.

    55. Re:Great book by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Let's make it a little better. Simply shorten the copyright terms a little and institution mandatory licensing schemes similar to public performances of recorded music for works older then 8 or 10 years (or some arbitrary number) into the copyright and possibly free or pro bono fees for non-commercial works.

        (pro bono, for the lack of a better term, would be an accounting of fees not collected but reserved to be collected if a non-commercial derivative goes commercial. This concept would be to avoid You writing a book, me doing a fan fiction derivative of it, then my non-commercial work gets made into a movie while your work is ignored).

    56. Re:Great book by RichiH · · Score: 1

      > Shakespear was published under a regime of perpetual copyright.

      That's pretty interesting. Especially since he adapted heavily and "stole" more or less complete works from others.

      At a time where most people could not read or write and actual scarcities like actors, venues, costumes, lighting, good audio, what-have-you were the barriers to distribution, copyright was a _lot_ less "useful" as it is today.

    57. Re:Great book by VortexCortex · · Score: 1

      Copyright originally was on par with our patent system limitations (14 years). That's plenty of time to profit by monopoly, while also allowing the public domain time within the lifetimes of the generation in which the work was produced to benefit...

      It is, of course, the public society -- the collective culture -- in which the copyrighted works gain worth in the first place.

      I have recently created my own language & numerical systems based on the concepts of dimensions (point, line, plane, 3D space) positions, and movements. The language has 16 characters, and the sentence structure is mathematical. I've created a programming language that is a subset of my new language. The introduction to how to read & speak & program in this language is written in simple terms of the language itself. Both my 18 year old brother, and my 30yr old neighbour have picked up the language & programming language with no further instruction other than the book. Interestingly, tinkering with "live" instantly interpreted code helped them learn more complex ideas faster than the literature alone...

      I plan on using these languages I've created as the language of the Aliens in an immersive video game I'm creating. Visual virtual state machines and alien data terminals can be directly manipulated and used to re-program the logic of the alien technology around the player (much of the game's actual logic is written in the "alien" programming language -- "machine code" is almost exactly the same as normal "speech").

      However, since my original language is known by so few (2) people, I can't get a publisher interested... You see, would I have written in English the book would have worth in the English speaking culture that I live in. Would I have stood on the shoulder's of giants my work would be worth more to society. Therefore I must infer that all common works protected by copyright include HUGE portions of common culture and should not be granted such lengthy copyrights in my opinion.

      Even in my own work, designed to be very different from other literary works, I've borrowed concepts taken from the culture in which I live. The idea of being able to reprogram a machine's function, virtual state machines, puns, the concept of extraterrestrial life, humour, love, suspense, politics, wonder, and even poetry -- All of these and MANY more ideas are borrowed from my society and used to create my "original" works.

      Any work that is purely unique and truly original would have very little worth at all; It would be too alien to be popular except perhaps among scientists & linguists -- both of which have scoffed at my "sophomoric" attempt to create an interesting language (it need not be deep and complex. "It's for a game", I say; normal people should be able to learn it in the course of play, and replaying the game with a deeper understanding yields new solutions & paths and ever more meaningful glimpses into Alien politics, humour, and philosophy, as under-complex and un-evolved as it may be).

      It is so very strange to me that works are protected by copyrights for over the lifespan of the generation in which they are created, when essentially the works themselves are MOSTLY created from the ideas and culture of ones own generation...

    58. Re:Great book by mike2R · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The point (and yes I am just parroting Lessig here) was that the Statute of Anne was the replacement for the old common law copyrights which were perpetual. The point of the Statute of Anne was to stop copyrights being perpetual in English law. That said there were none of the implications for derivative works that we have today. I'm pretty sure that while the owner of the copyright had the perpetual right to be the only one who could print copies of Shakespear's plays, anyone could perform them without licence: it was literally the right to make copies.

      --
      This sig all sigs devours
    59. Re:Great book by vadim_t · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The original owner of a work may be dead, but the franchise lives on. Shouldn't the franchise holders be protected from losing their investment to copy-cats?

      Why should they be? My idea is simply reducing the length. It would be simply the question of planning to make a profit within 14-30 years. And if you can't make a profit in 14 years they'll probably never make it, anyway.

      If George Lucas died today, should Star Wars immediately become public domain, even when there's a huge MMO and lots of movie memorabilia with full licensing and lots of money still to be made by the people who paid for the right to do so?

      No, because having copyright expire on death would provide a perverse incentive for murdering authors of famous works, like George Lucas for instance.

      Copyright should be much shorter, but it should last the same whether the creator lives or dies.

    60. Re:Great book by icebraining · · Score: 1

      Yes, because if there's an example of quality games, it's movie conversions.

    61. Re:Great book by HungryHobo · · Score: 1

      even if you simply had to register a work by sending a full unencrypted copy to a Legal deposit library that would kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Preserve culture and make copyright more sane.
      give it 10 years or so automatic and require people to renew it every 5 or 10 years after that up to some reasonably long limit.
      let the forogotten works drift into the general culture and let people make a living off particularly good ones.

    62. Re:Great book by DrMaurer · · Score: 1

      Well, hello there false dichotomy, nice to see you. Or not.

      I think the original period of 14 years from date of fixing on a medium (or whatever) with a single, limited, optional renewal is a good thing.

      --
      Dan
    63. Re:Great book by edremy · · Score: 2
      One thing that might be workable to some extent would be a multi-user patronage system. Rather than relying on one wealthy person, get a few thousand regular joes.

      For example, I really like Iain Bank's work, especially his Culture stuff. Let him set up an account- I'll pay $20 for the next book and when the account gets fat enough he releases it. If you use either electronic distribution, virtually all of this goes directly to him (and his editor) so you don't need to sell all that many copies- with on-demand printers you can do limited print runs for those of us who actually like paper.

      This could also work via serialization, similar to Dickens- I'll give you the first 3 chapters free, after that it gets serialized in a magazine that you have to pay for. This would be a lot better for unknown authors, since I probably won't pay $20 for someone I don't know I'll like.

      --
      "Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
    64. Re:Great book by Eskarel · · Score: 1

      There's a difference between paying people in perpetuum and paying them at all. I know very few people who aren't involved directly in selling creative works who believe that copyright should last anywhere near the term it currently does, to be honest as technology has made publishing and distribution easier copyright periods should be decreasing not increasing.

    65. Re:Great book by gerddie · · Score: 1

      You might want to read this article . I don't say it is completely correct, but IMHO it describes the dynamics of a copyright free publishing industry quite well.

    66. Re:Great book by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Benefit : you get this new work for free.

      Not necessarily. There is nothing indicating that if this new book which from the article submission amounts to a dressed up atheists rant about religion, were to be free of copyright obligations that it would still be free to us. There is a good chance that the only reason it is free now is because monetary damages if publishing the book ever came to trial, would be limited or a defense of fair use could be attempted because of the non-commercial nature of the book. Without those restriction, it's quite possible that it could be a pay for book and you wouldn't get anything for free.

      Another way to fight against copyright : let greed go to increased and increased madness, let them copyright ideas, let them copyright words. Then new works will be impossible to copyright, they will have to be released anonymous and for free. Let the world without copyright come from the greed of right holders (or grand-grand-children of copyright holders)

      Why not just demand that our leaders pass laws and make treaties that reduces the limits on copyright terms and places some mandatory licensing schemes into play after a certain period of time? It would be much easier overall then halting progress until our elected leaders finally get fed up and do the same thing. Perhaps it would be even better if they got fed up with our complaining and constant demands in it sooner then the damages caused from halting all progress could be?

    67. Re:Great book by Eskarel · · Score: 1

      Any halfway decent lawyer could get this clear on the grounds of parody anyway.

    68. Re:Great book by captainpanic · · Score: 2

      Not to mention all the historical plays, such as Anthony and Cleopatra, which are obviously copied from ancient Roman/Greek/Egyptian descriptions.

      But I guess that's still acceptable - as we can see in The King's Speech. But as soon as one of the big industry become the owner of a story, it's theirs to keep ;)

    69. Re:Great book by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 2

      How do you copy original works of art?

      Pretty easily, now that we have photography. It can be done by hand, too, though (sometimes openly, sometimes secretly, as in the case of art forgers). The only thing you can't copy is the provenance, but copyright has nothing to do with that; the Mona Lisa painted by Da Vinci is in the public domain and it's still worth more than an exact duplicate by someone else.

      I said there would be fewer things of value produced if works could be copied freely without the people who did the work getting paid.

      That's not necessarily true, though. Increased copyright does not necessarily mean increased numbers of works created. If you were to graph the value of copyright over time, you'd find that it spikes quickly, turns into a matter of diminishing returns, and eventually peaks, then trends downwards.

      While we probably aren't there yet, it is possible to have such restrictive copyrights that it discourages people from creating and publishing new works due to the threat of rent-seeking established copyright holders who don't want competition, resulting in less creation and publication than if there were no copyright at all.

      but I don't think any Hollywood type movies would be made if any theater could legally make a copy and show the film without paying the film company.

      Perhaps there is a middle ground? For example, allow natural persons, acting non-commercially, to make copies as they like, but don't allow businesses or anyone acting commercially to infringe, which would require the movie theater to still pay to show movies.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    70. Re:Great book by Luyseyal · · Score: 1

      Correct, since you can copyright characters, storylines, etc.

      -l

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    71. Re:Great book by shikaisi · · Score: 5, Funny

      I wouldn't want to abolish it, but I'd like to make it much shorter.

      I totally agree.

      Oh, sorry, you were talking about copyright. I thought you meant Lord of the Rings.

      --
      No left turn unstoned.
    72. Re:Great book by Barrinmw · · Score: 1

      Copyrights are one thing, copyrights for over 100 years? Ridiculous. I doubt very few authors would choose not to write a book if they only held the copyright for 15 years.

    73. Re:Great book by simon0411 · · Score: 1

      Sigh... people are so dogmatic about copyright here on Slashdot, I'll pass on regurgitating arguments about why it is needed, why art is different from other forms of labor, etc. I will, however, submit an alternative to completely banishing it altogether.

      The definition to fair use should be expanded. More specifically, a new category of derivative work should be defined: non-transliterated works of significant reinterpretation/artistic value created within the lifetime of the original copyright. Works such as this, The Wind Done Gone, or your average Kirk/Spock slash fiction ought not be hampered, because they don't impinge on the ability of the original to make a profit, and it's a separate issue from false attribution (the two main things copyright is meant to protect). It's often the reverse; the majority of the Japanese pop media allow and may even encourage derivative fan works, under a specific environment, because such works (even pornographic ones) generate more interest in the original.

      One proviso would be that the fan creator may not hold copyright over any individual part, only the whole, and that s/he relinquish the ability to make claims against the original creator (in case "official" derivative work shares similarities with the fan work, coincidence or not). It would almost be like a limited GPL... the "changes" one makes has to be open sourced.

    74. Re:Great book by quenda · · Score: 3, Insightful

      just say "when you've made 5M bucks off your book, it's off copyright"?

      I don't know about books, but for movies that would equate to perpetual copyright

    75. Re:Great book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, but absolutely none of those standards and regulations were put in place to make sure an otherwise impossible business model becomes possible. If I make chairs and sell them, there are no regulations in the universe to ensure that I make a profit. It's called the free market -- both statism and socialism are not very compatible with it.

    76. Re:Great book by mike2R · · Score: 2

      I'm getting all my info from Lawrence Lessig's Free Culture. If you are interested you can read the relevant chapter here.

      --
      This sig all sigs devours
    77. Re:Great book by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 3, Insightful

      How about just making it annual up to some maximum?

      If a copyright holder is only interested in copyright for, say, 3 years, and is so uninterested after that point that he can't even summon up the energy to deliberately release the work to the public domain (but wouldn't care if it did enter), you're still giving him 7-12 years for no good reason.

      Given that most of the economic value (and copyright is about nothing other than economic value) is realized very quickly upon publication in any given medium, most works don't need long copyrights. (E.g. a daily newspaper is fishwrap by the end of the day, a book has maybe 18 months, there being nowhere to go after a release in paperback, and movies are little more than movies of the week after 10, maybe 15 years.)

      It's really rare to have a work of long-lasting value, and we may as well design the system around the majority of works, rather than the rare, successful outliers. And the guys with the long-lived works can surely afford the more frequent renewal schedule.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    78. Re:Great book by houstonbofh · · Score: 1

      Product Placement.

      Just saying that there are alternative revenue streams if you look for them. Not as much, but think of the millions they would save in lawyer fees suing customers and buying politicians.

    79. Re:Great book by ZDRuX · · Score: 1

      This is the current problem and the correct solution all in one. I presume society and the current financial infrastructure would do quite well and not explode all in one go if the copyright had a limit on it for saaaaay... 5 years or so. This basically says that if you don't make enough money off of your invention in 5 years to satisfy your greed, then let someone else have a go at it and make a better version of it after that time has elapsed.

      --
      The magical number is: 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
    80. Re:Great book by Foobar+of+Borg · · Score: 1

      Copyright is needed, but it's currently far too long.

      Tolkien has been dead and buried for 38 years now. His estate is preventing the translation from being published for what reason exactly? Where's the benefit to society from that?

      The estate of Margaret Mitchell pulls the same kind of crap, too. Recently, they sued Alice Randell over her story The Wind Done Gone. If you can't make derivative works without the fear of being sued, what's the point in having such a long copyright?

    81. Re:Great book by RichiH · · Score: 1

      Not right now, but I will read it.

      The research I read on this suggested the opposite.

    82. Re:Great book by houstonbofh · · Score: 1

      Giving something to someone does not make the a freeloader. Some people will take the work, and give back. A competent minority can create a lot of stuff. Example; Linux, Apache...

    83. Re:Great book by Foobar+of+Borg · · Score: 2

      No, because having copyright expire on death would provide a perverse incentive for murdering authors of famous works, like George Lucas for instance.

      I'm sorry, but why is this a bad thing?

    84. Re:Great book by Antisyzygy · · Score: 1

      I'd like to hear more about this video game. Not necessarily the ideas, just progress, etc. It sounds like it would be fun.

      --
      That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
    85. Re:Great book by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 1

      Tell me again, how exactly copyright encourages creation of new works?

      Since you asked, it's simple -- at least in the pre-internet age.

      I spend a year or two writing a book. I get someone to publish it. But then, the publisher down the street starts selling cheap imitations of my book for 10% of the price. Everyone buys the cheaper version, so I get nothing for my years of time spent writing the book. So why would I (or anyone else) bother to spend time writing books? No one would. That's how copyright encourages the creation of new books.

      Now, copyright laws originally tended to be granted to 7 years. So, I get to make profits for 7 years (and sue those who try to take them away from me), but after that I hopefully have recovered my investment... and others can now use the work freely.

      That's how copyright is supposed to work. Eventually, a renewal was added after 7 years, so if you were still selling well, you could get 14. Then, it became 14 years, with an optional renewal for a total of 28. Personally, I think that's the maximum reasonable copyright term -- a significant chunk of an author's reasonable working timespan.

      The problem is not copyright per se. The problem is that copyright terms have now been expanded to be ridiculously long. I think 7 years or 14 years (or maybe even 28 in some circumstances) is enough to allow someone to recoup their investment. But a century or more?? That's the problem.

      Of course, how this all plays out in an age of the internet and ease of copying without the cost of actual publication is a separate question.

    86. Re:Great book by bunratty · · Score: 1

      You let me know when copies of Picasso sell for millions of dollars.

      --
      What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
    87. Re:Great book by Foobar+of+Borg · · Score: 2

      I've never understood why slashdotters use car analogies so much. Surely most of us trolling in the comments here don't have cars, or we'd be off doing fun things like getting to work.

      Well, you see, a car analogy is like a Ford. It works and gets you from point A to point B, but it tends to break down a lot and needs to be fixed often. A good comment is like a BMW or a Volvo. It does the job it is meant to do, does it well, and rarely (if ever) needs to be repaired. A troll comment is like a Pinto. If left to sit alone, everything is fine. But, ding it slightly, and the gas tank tears, spewing fire into the passenger compartment, and burning everyone to death.

    88. Re:Great book by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      I could go with that, but I think it would be harder to get passed into law than some variation on my idea (especially considering the Berne Convention).
      I think that if you want to fix copyright law, your best bet is to talk about various ideas on discussion boards (such as slashdot) and get behind the idea that seems to you to have the best chance to actually get passed that is an improvement over current law. Once the improvement has been passed, give it a couple of years to see how it works out. If it hasn't fixed the problem you supported it to fix, start working on the next option. Actually, that is true of just about every issue.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    89. Re:Great book by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 1

      No, because having copyright expire on death would provide a perverse incentive for murdering authors of famous works, like George Lucas for instance.

      This is always quoted as the rationale for keeping copyright around after an author's death, but it's pretty preposterous and historically it isn't the reason why it exists.

      If you take a look at 19th century activists for copyright, you see a lot of mention of widows and families of authors. That is the more realistic reason for keeping limited term copyright around. I'm not talking about rich people like Lucas (or setting up generations of descendants for wealth) -- I'm talking about an author who makes maybe a few thousand dollars off of his writings and uses that income to help support his family. Why should we deprive that family of that income because of the untimely death of the author?

      Please stop spreading the crazy idea that people are going to go around murdering authors -- it was discussed historically, but it was never taken seriously. The real argument is about families.

    90. Re:Great book by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      But SWtOR will be good...at least better than the Transformer and Harry Potter video games, amiright?

    91. Re:Great book by Captain+Hook · · Score: 1

      Agreed, the reason for having copyrights is to allow commercial benefit from the works in order to encourage the works to be created in the first place, thus benefitting society. The problem is there is no commerical reason not to just sit on a work for as long as the law allows in the hopes that some day it might become valuable again which does not benefit society in anyway. Everytime Micky gets close to being out of Copyright, the laws get changed to extend the period again, and it only costs what the lobbying costs and is largely hidden from the public.

      I like the idea of giving someone a free copyright to start with and then allowing an extention of the copyright in say 10 years blocks (a number pulled out of nowhere) for a fee, but with each subquent extension becoming more expensive according to a know algorithm (maybe each 10 year extension cost x2 what the previous extension cost). That way there is nothing to stop the copyright owner passing the works on to their heirs, or selling to big corporations but there will become a point where it's just not worth spending the money to maintain the copyright, at which point it reverts back to the public as copyrights should do at the moment, but don't.

      The only problem I see with this is that big rich corporations with a large library of copyrighted works are able to afford to extend those copyrights for longer than an individual can even without gaining any commercial value from the works, and can use a few very successful copyrights to maintain a vast library in a "wait and see" strategy.

      Finding the right time frame for renewals, the intial price and the price increase ratio for each renewal will be critical to making the system work and I can see being different for different types of works (movies, music, books, art etc) and are variables which will need to be thought about carefully from both the point of views of both business and society.

      --
      These comments are my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the other voices in my head.
    92. Re:Great book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fashion seem to manage just fine without strict copyright laws :)

      http://www.ted.com/talks/johanna_blakley_lessons_from_fashion_s_free_culture.html

    93. Re:Great book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So because some people with copyrights get ripped off by their publisher, every creator should lose their copyright? That's an absurdly stupid line of reasoning. Unlike you, one of my friends is an author who both has a copyrighted book for sale and a Paypal button on her website (which has an informative and interesting blog on topics in the same field as her book). Anyone who knows anything about people's willingness to donate versus buy would guess correctly that she makes several orders of magnitude more money from her book sales than from paypal donations.

    94. Re:Great book by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      I'm open for reducing the length. I think it's weird that your emphasis is 14-30 years to turn a profit. What I suggest is that if you are ALREADY making a profit in year 2 on your Star Wars franchise, then you should continue to be the sole profiteer (and your partners), LONG AFTER 14 years. Star Wars would have expired in, what, 1991 by your timeframe? There's still tons of Star Wars stuff out there and George Lucas should enjoy that for many years to come.

      Now tell me 100 years from now that Star Wars is still going strong, then that's a different conversation (and our society has really shit the bed). But that 100 years at leasts guarantees Lucas will benefit from his creation during its and his relevant years.

    95. Re:Great book by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No.

      Which is not to say that copyright should be based around the life of the author. It should be a term of years from publication or some other fixed point in time. This makes it predictable, which is good for everyone.

      But copyright isn't intended to benefit authors or people who made deals with authors. It is intended to benefit the public. The value to authors is just a means to an end; we give them a monopoly in order to encourage them to create things that will enter the public domain, and if the work is popular, the monopoly is worth something for them to exploit.

      Ideally then, we should grant the bare minimum copyright necessary in order to get works created. Less would not be as beneficial as possible to the public, more would be superfluous and wasteful. This may not be possible on a work-by-work basis, but we can probably work out some good average numbers.

      That the work is still popular by the time the copyright runs out is no justification for granting a longer term. And why should the public only get to enjoy worthless works freely anyway?

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    96. Re:Great book by stewbacca · · Score: 2

      Demanding everything be free, especially when the owner doesn't want you to have it for free, indeed does make one a free-loader. Especially when the free-loader takes that which wasn't free and then jumps on /. and declares that information wants to be free.

    97. Re:Great book by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      The text seems to be independently written (i.e. not by copying Tolkien's texts), even though it contains ideas, names and themes from Tolkien's famous books. That's completely ok as far as copyright is concerned (no copying, no problem).

      No, it's a derivative work, which is one of the things covered by copyright.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    98. Re:Great book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So copyright holder should be able to fight to protect their ideas? I'm not sure that would work, but it might be entertaining to watch.

      UFC (Ultimate Fighting Copyrights)

    99. Re:Great book by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      That's the provenance at work, which is not copyable, and not protected by copyright anyway.

      (Though copies can be valuable; if you discovered that you had the only known copy of some very notable lost work, you might be able to get millions of dollars for it, even though that particular copy was written by some anonymous student or scribe who no one cares about)

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    100. Re:Great book by Sepodati · · Score: 1

      The problem is that derivative works are also restricted, along with exact copies. I'm unable to contribute my own creative works to society because they are derived from your original ideas.

    101. Re:Great book by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 1

      It would all just be the cheap amateurish crap like shakespear and mozart.

      Umm... Mozart did in fact publish music. It was in fact covered under copyright. So did Bach (just a few things), Handel, Beethoven, Chopin, etc., etc.

      It wasn't until the 19th century that composers became more dependent on money from publication, though. Why? Not because of anything having to do with copyright. In the 18th century (and before), composers had day jobs or wealthy supporters. Bach was an organist, choir director, and teacher. Mozart was paid on commissions from wealthy patrons.

      But please don't pretend that these composers weren't happy to make a few bucks off of some copyrighted publication they wrote.

    102. Re:Great book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I can think of one copyright that is still making lots of money: Mickey Mouse.
      I say we start a "Fuck the mouse" campaign to shorten copyrights!

    103. Re:Great book by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      I could go with that, but I think it would be harder to get passed into law than some variation on my idea (especially considering the Berne Convention).

      Your proposal is also incompatible with Berne. Frankly, I see no reason whatsoever for the US to be a party to any copyright treaty at all. We should unilaterally grant national treatment to works of foreign authors, but we should set our own laws and not be bound by any set of minimum standards from abroad. Our involvement with copyright internationally should be limited to 1) informally coordinating with other countries so as to try to avoid conflicts between various copyright laws that would force an author to choose between protection in one place, and protection in another, due to mutual incompatibilities; 2) publish copyright forms and instructions in foreign languages to reduce obstacles for foreign authors seeking US copyrights.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    104. Re:Great book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That has to be one of the most intellectually dishonest arguments I've read all month. Seriously. Translate this argument into symbolic logic and divorce it from the wishful "I want it to be true" irrationality of the poster, and it'd collapse in an instant under the weight of its idiocy. In their more thoughtful moments, even your local shaman, imam, pope, scientologist, or homeopathist makes more sound arguments than this.

    105. Re:Great book by Chyeld · · Score: 1

      It seems to me that it's easier to figure out a good time limit than a monetary one.

      Say, the $5M. Why precisely that number? How do you adapt to the economy? $5M in 10 years might be $1M today. Also some works are expensive. That would make big movies go out of copyright right in the first week.

      More importantly, why would a 10 page short story about how funny a fish finds humans that took a week to write be capped at the same level as a 1000 page thesis on the human condition that took a decade to complete?

    106. Re:Great book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It used to be that after limited times, meaning a short amount of time, the duration of the copyright expires, and new works can be made based on the old work.
      This is how copyright used to avoid stifling new works -- old works' copyright used to expires.
      This promotes progress in the arts and sciences because there is now not much (if any) profit in rehashing old works.

      Promoting progress means encouraging new works, and since copyright protections only apply to new works (that is: works that are so new,
      that they are still subject to copyright), new works are encouraged.

      You basically have 3 choices... (A) Have copyright, (B) Ban sale/possession of electronic/mechanic devices capable of copying or rendering books except by 'licensed publishers' (essentially -- personal computers would be banned), or (C) Have few/no books, because there's no profit un publishing to be made making and selling large books. The few books that could exist would be advertising supported.

      Or the forth choice (D) Shorten copyright to where it actually serves the stated purpose. If you doubt that, name the last year anything copyrighted went into the public domain by expiration? Every year there are supposed to be things that enter the public domain, but that hasn't happened in more than a few years (look it up if you doubt it).*

      *Here in the US at least.

    107. Re:Great book by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 2

      The original owner of a work may be dead, but the franchise lives on. Shouldn't the franchise holders be protected from losing their investment to copy-cats?

      No. Why should parasitic investors be empowered? The Constitution grants Congress the power to secure rights to authors and inventors -- not to investors, heirs, assignees, or anyone else.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    108. Re:Great book by Ultra64 · · Score: 1

      Maybe (hopefully?) fewer things would be produced, but the things that do get produced would be of higher quality.

    109. Re:Great book by Chyeld · · Score: 1

      Trademark it, and then people can't pretend to be 'official cannon'. Then the only time you stand a chance at 'losing your investment' to copy-cats is when they do a better job with the franchise than you.

      And if they are, why the fuck you think you are entailed to squat on it, leeching money?

    110. Re:Great book by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 2

      One thing that might be workable to some extent would be a multi-user patronage system. Rather than relying on one wealthy person, get a few thousand regular joes.

      This was commonly done historically -- it's often known as a subscription system. Today, we associate that idea with magazines, where it continues to work the same way -- a certain number of people sign up ahead of time and are guaranteed to receive a copy of the magazine. These subscribers guarantee that a publisher can at least make up the cost of the publication, even if newsstand sales aren't that great.

      But historically this was often done with books, musical scores, etc. as well. Often it involved multi-volume projects, but sometimes it was used for one large work as well. I've even seen it recently used for projects like digitization of important old reference books that would only be important to a few scholars -- you sign up early, get a reduced price, and once they have enough subscribers to guarantee profitability, the project gets underway.

      This could also work via serialization, similar to Dickens

      Yes, exactly. Historically, many authors made money through serial publication, and again, a subscription base often allowed publishers to guarantee profitability.

    111. Re:Great book by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 2

      The thing is that corporations will only invest a certain amount into maintaining copyright on works that are not generating any income. And that is the key, the renewal cost must be high enough that corporations will not be willing to spend it on "wait and see" products. As a general rule, corporations will not spend much money on items that cannot be clearly shown to have a positive impact on the bottom line. As a matter of fact, most corporations will not spend money on items that do not have a Return On Investment above a certain percentage (different companies have different ROI levels, but the minimum I know of is what they can get if they invested that money into government bonds).

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    112. Re:Great book by Radtoo · · Score: 1

      You're being extremely generous. With the time it takes to publish something these days, 10 years total including renewal is more than enough motivation.

      In fact, that may still be too generous. Even people who do their marketing themselves, inefficiently, for a rather niche audience, ought to recoup their money by that time if they wrote anything worth reading at all.

    113. Re:Great book by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 1

      Why couldn't they just get permission and pay the necessary royalties? Is the Tolkien estate refusing permission or has it simply been assumed they wouldn't grant it?

      Whatever you may think of copyright, the way it currently stands there are ways to going about doing things. Sure copyrights are probably lasting too long, but that shouldn't stop you from at least trying to see if permission can be granted.

      --
      Jumpstart the tartan drive.
    114. Re:Great book by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      Not the Star Wars franchise in general, but each movie considered separately, including each re-release.

      So for instance, the copyright of the 1977 original would have expired in 1991, but 1997 special edition would expire just about now. Under a 14 year term he'd probably have been motivated to do a special edition sooner, because after 1991 anybody could do one.

      He'd also have more motivation for coming up with something new instead of milking the franchise dry, because after 14 years anybody could make stories set in the universe and everybody would be sick of it much faster.

      That said, things like Star Wars are oddities. We shouldn't make rules based exclusively on the rare cases.

    115. Re:Great book by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      I would say that the U.S. should have bilateral copyright treaties, rather than a multinational one. The biggest advantage of bilateral treaties is that it would be much easier to pressure countries that do not actually enforce IP law. Admittedly that would require much more work for the various government organizations involved in negotiating/approving/enforcing the treaties, but hopefully that would result in them being busy doingsomething useful rather than having time to look around for ways to interfere in people's lives.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    116. Re:Great book by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 2

      Fuck the idea of "due compensation". Should a mason be paid in perpetuum for the work he did on a store front?

      Does the mason get paid a living wage on building the wall? Yes. Can the mason proceed to build an arbitrary number of walls? Yes. So the mason gets £x, €y or $z per hour, and can work hour after hour.

      Now, what's the going rate for a songwriter's work? Pennies per unit. What's the going rate for a novellist's work? About £1, €1 or $1 per unit, if you're lucky.

      So to compare copyright to manual labour, you're going to have to explain to me who on Earth is going to spend £5,000 to be the first person to listen to a single song, or £20,000 to be the first person to listen to a novel, and who is then going to be willing to let the rest of the world listen to it for free....

      HAL

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    117. Re:Great book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The is no such thing as "due compensation." Nobody owes you a living.

    118. Re:Great book by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 1

      It's not "idearight", it's "copyright". In the newspaper industry, "copy" is a mass noun roughly equivalent to "text". So "copyright" is "rights over stuff you've written". This is why writing books with remarkably similar stories is not normally plagiarism -- you are not using the original author's "copy" (=text). This book derives from Tolkien's copy, not just his ideas. While I can see a case for saying a work like this should be legal on grounds of the philosophy in the book itself, it's still clear that commercially it's selling off the back of someone else's work.

      HAL.

      --
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    119. Re:Great book by Haeleth · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Shakespear was published under a regime of perpetual copyright.

      Which is why Hamlet and King Lear, among other plays, are thought to be reworkings of older plays.

      And, in the case of Hamlet, the earliest edition is widely believed to be an unauthorized copy -- basically the 17th-century equivalent of a camcorder. There is no record whatsoever of anyone ever being sued or punished for that.

    120. Re:Great book by tverbeek · · Score: 1

      I agree entirely. I hesitate to use a "framer's intent" argument referring to the U.S. Constitution, but in this case it's a good frame of reference. The kind of copyright that Madison et al. had in mind was one in which a person had exclusive rights for several years (expanded later a bit at a time to 56), to recoup the time and creative energy he put into it, plus some profit if it was popular, but then anyone could use it. It wasn't intended to give someoen an income for life, and it certainly wasn't any kind of hereditary estate to passed on to the children and grandchildren of the creators. The idea of copyrights lasting for decades after the creator's death (as popularized in Europe and now codified into international law) is just way too long. It rewards people who had nothing to do with the original creation, and it stifles later creative endeavors, such as this one.

      --
      http://alternatives.rzero.com/
    121. Re:Great book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really? Did Disney pay anyone for all the stories they "stole" from the public domain? There were thousands of artists before there was the concept of the copyright. Copyright was not about "ensuring" anyone got what was due to them. It was about fear and protectionism. Copyright was created in The UK because book publishers feared the printing press would put them out of business. Copyright right was created in The US because musicians feared the player piano would put them out of business. It's funny that the biggest proponents of copyrights, the music and movie industry, moved to California to AVOID having to pay others for their copyright rights and patents.

    122. Re:Great book by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      The biggest advantage of bilateral treaties is that it would be much easier to pressure countries that do not actually enforce IP law.

      I don't understand why I should care whether or not a foreign country has copyright laws, whether merely on paper or actually in practice.

      The US should implement whatever laws we consider best in our own territory, and not accept outside interference. We should allow others to do the same. The only standard should be national treatment -- countries should not discriminate for or against their own authors.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    123. Re:Great book by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 1

      If the US did that, other countries would simply drop restrictions on US IP. Hollywood films would be viewed for free the whole world over. International treaties protect the interests of all countries....

      HAL.

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    124. Re:Great book by Captain+Hook · · Score: 1

      Oh I agree, the corporations will eventually let copyrights expire, but they could hang onto them for a really long time before that happens.

      Using my hypothetical 10 year renewal term above, Imagine the copyright renewal was $1000 for the first extension, but a random old film makes $2,000,000 profit in at some point in that 10 year period (I don't know, maybe they release a 20 year remaster of a cult film), the corporation could hold 2,000 titles for the next 10 years based on those profits in the hope another one of those 2000 films does the same thing in the next 10 years, but if you make the renewal significantly more than $1000, you hurt independent film makers from extending their copyright.

      Basically my fear is that this change could lead to copyright superholders, able to make a profit with a few old films each year, while holding onto the copyright of 1000/100000 of other titles. Similar to patent trolls today, buying up everything they can in the hope that one might be useful at some point in the future, and the scales are such that they only need one success to fund the rest of the library for years.

      Having said that, maybe the renewal fee for any given works could be pegged to the production costs of the original works (it would mean the same system could be used for movies, music and books just with different starting prices). An independent film made for $100,000 would cost $1000 for the first renewal, but a film which cost $100,000,000 to make would cost $100,000 to renew in the first year. It might also help with Hollywood accounting where it's generally in the favour of the production company to make the film as expensive as possible to ensure it doesn't make a profit on the books, pegging the renewal fee to the costs they claim the film required would effectively make it the film more expensive to maintain over time.

      --
      These comments are my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the other voices in my head.
    125. Re:Great book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If those were the terms the mason and the group hiring agreed to, then yes. If not, then not. Is this really that hard to understand?

    126. Re:Great book by rworne · · Score: 2

      No, but it is a form of DRM, state-of-the-art at the time.

      --
      I tried every decent and legal way I could think of to resolve the issue w/the business before I rented the chicken suit
    127. Re:Great book by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 1

      Are you proposing the death penalty for rape of fictional characters? ;-)

      HAL.

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    128. Re:Great book by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      Everything should be free... eventually.

      The way I see copyright is that its point is providing incentives for growing the set of public domain works as fast as possible. Thus we grant a temporary monopoly to make people more likely to create, but after that ends everything becomes free and available to anybody.

    129. Re:Great book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Copy right did not exist prior to the establishment of the printing press. The creation of copy right as a form of property was proposed by English printers who wanted to control the creative endeavors of authors for the benefit of the printers. Thus, the author, wanting some money would sell his work to the printer, who would print copies for distribution, or not. The author did not receive nearly as much compensation for the creation of the work as the printers did for making copies.

      Copy right was not and is not about compensating the creator of a work. It is about controlling the distribution and sale of a work. Most copy rights are held not by authors but rather by publishers whose draconian, one sided contracts definitely point out that the creator of the work is not the benefactor of copyright.

    130. Re:Great book by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      No, because having copyright expire on death would provide a perverse incentive for murdering authors of famous works, like George Lucas for instance.

      Of course that theory doesn't stand up to any sort of critical examination. Death of an author would put the work in the public domain so no one would gain an advantage over anyone else by killing the author.

      If anything the current system of copyright encourages such murders because the heirs inherent the copyright so they do have incentive to murder. After all, killing a spouse/parent/relative for the inheritance is not unheard of in society. But who has ever heard of someone committing murder in order to cause their estate to be donated to charity?

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    131. Re:Great book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whenever someone says that without copyright, nothing of value would be created anymore, I just have to think back to Pablo Picasso and all the riches he amassed through his art. After all, without copyright, everyone could have copied him and thus taken away his well deserved reward without which he would never have painted in the first place.

      Oh wait...

      Oh come on, that's not even remotely comparable and you know it. In the age of Pablo Picasso, it was NOT a trivial task to make an exact duplicate in massive quantities (millions) and distribute them free of charge. I appreciate the point you are attempting to make, and I agree that copyright does need reform but your analogy is flawed at best.

    132. Re:Great book by GooberToo · · Score: 1

      In what world of delusion does preventing on author from ripping off another author stop creation of new works. By definition, it absolutely mandates the creation of new works because you can't just go around ripping off other author's works. Meaning, you are FORCED to create new works or nothing at all. Why is obviousness and reality so hard for some to see.

      So tired of this ignorant rhetoric which constantly permeates slashdot these days.

      The idiocy of such claims is extremely profound. You're basically arguing that you should do all the world and your co-workers should be entitled to reap all the benefits, including bonuses, raises, and advancement. Sorry, but that's down right stupid.

    133. Re:Great book by CAIMLAS · · Score: 2

      Because it's not like Shakespeare or Mozart profited (almost exclusively) from their works during their lifetimes, is it? There were immitators, sure - but their works were completely theirs under the protection of laws at the time.

      (Shakespeare was the writer of his day's "Friends" and "Three's Company". Sure, it was witty, and I'm glad people can "get it" after learning all the cultural colloquialisms. It's still just shlock.)

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    134. Re:Great book by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      Without copyright, we'd likely go back to a patronage system, and as a result we'd have significantly fewer books and movies.

      The current system is essentially a patronage system where the patrons are large corps that control access to the market. Effectively no one makes a significant sum of money in movies/music/books/theater without the permission of a huge corporate patron.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    135. Re:Great book by pclminion · · Score: 1

      His estate is preventing the translation from being published for what reason exactly?

      You know, the world might benefit greatly by the release of my teenage diaries, but guess what? I'm not going to release them. You can take away copyright but you still can't break-and-enter to my home and steal my shit because "information wants to be free."

      So, are you free tomorrow around 2 PM? I'm going to stop by with a scanner and take copies of all written materials in your home.

    136. Re:Great book by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Yes, they could do what you said, but they won't. Unlike patent trolls, you have to do more to profit from holding copyright on some work than just holding the copyright and then suing those who violate it (although that is something that would need to be addressed, ther would need to be some sort of database where one could go to check if a work was still under copyright). In order to profit from a copyrighted work, you need to make it available and spend money morketing it. That means that corporations are going to look at their copyright portfolio and only pay to extend copyright on those works they think are worth spending the money to market.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    137. Re:Great book by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      If the US did that, other countries would simply drop restrictions on US IP.

      Well, I do want all countries to offer national treatment, without any minimum standards. If this means that US rightsholders would have to fill out forms or something for whatever countries they wanted to get rights in, that would be fine with me.

      However, I would point out that the US avoided copyright treaties of significance for a long time, and didn't even join Berne until 1989. There are ways of avoiding the problem you think would arise, if it's a problem at all, really.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    138. Re:Great book by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 1

      Perhaps there is a middle ground? For example, allow natural persons, acting non-commercially, to make copies as they like, but don't allow businesses or anyone acting commercially to infringe, which would require the movie theater to still pay to show movies.

      In that case, who's going to buy the DVD? Everyone will torrent it. Who's going to watch it on TV with those annoying advert breaks when they can just torrent it? And with the DVD and TV money gone, the studios will have to get the full funds on the theatrical release, meaning ticket prices go up. And who's going to pay even more to go into a cinema when they can just torrent it for free?

      It wouldn't work, sorry.

      HAL.

      --
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    139. Re:Great book by Nadaka · · Score: 2

      There are architects who have license that result in them getting a cut of each sale of a property, forever, because it was in their original contract that that payment clause would be in the contract for all future sales.

    140. Re:Great book by ewibble · · Score: 1
      Of course nobody does anything that isn't for money, No books written, no software developed, no art created. It is simply inconceivable any sane person would create for anything else but financial reward.

      In fact the best creations are made for other reasons, when money is the driver it seem you get rehashes of known successes.

    141. Re:Great book by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      Yeah, seems like a bit of an excuse, or possibly an overly cautious response.

      As far as I know, copyright does not prohibit derived works. This is obviously a derived work, and not trying to pass itself off as the same thing. (Sorta like if I were to write a book about a handful of devious thieves - Frank and Joe Hardy, and their sidekick, Chet - I'd simply be using the same names as the child detectives; it's a completely different story.)

      Now, there may be patents or something like that on the characters - I don't know. From my eye, the characters are all different: they just use some of the same names, and the story is similar. It should fly under copyright.

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    142. Re:Great book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Doesn't the GPL rely on copyright for its enforcement? Take that away, and the code's fair game...

    143. Re:Great book by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      I'll admit that the idea has flaws and things like the family the author supported are a better reason.

      However, one would gain an advantage in this case. If Tolkien were still around he could veto the production of a movie or make arbitrary demands. If copyright expired on death, his book would go in the public domain and anybody could make a movie. Sure other people could try, but your version would be copyrighted. The problem would go from not being able to do a movie at all to doing one that is profitable despite the competition. It's a challenge, but a much smaller one.

    144. Re:Great book by Sporkinum · · Score: 1

      I support the right to arm bears!

      --
      "He's lost in a 'floyd hole"
    145. Re:Great book by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      I'll second this - 20 years seems about ideal to me.

      There are so many older books which are still useful and full of difficult-to-find, well-organized information (lots of naturalist/outdoor/history books). Think of books made by small publishing companies which have since gone out of business or been sold to larger companies. They're hard to find. Authors will even sometimes loose access to their own work as a result of things like this.

      With this kind of regime, the only 'threshold' for getting into printing books would be the printing equipment. Using modern technology, many, many useful books could be one-off or limited-release again.

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    146. Re:Great book by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 1

      Copyright doesn't ensure you make a profit, it just protects your right to try.

      HAL.

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    147. Re:Great book by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Actually you'd probably have just as many books and movies, you just wouldn't have dreck like the Dukes of Hazzard remake.

      What you would do would be the same as what Joss Whedon was talking about when he was thinking of doing Faith the Vampire Slayer or Spike&Dru, you'd have a "buy our shit" for fan investment, which would in turn help guide the artist by letting him/her know which the fans were more interested in. Want Spike&Dru over Faith? Buy this shirt, and this mug, oh and pick up a keyring while you're at it. want a sequel? buy the DVD, hell buy a few and give them to friends.

      Basically it would be like patronage only by the fans themselves instead of a single wealthy donor. this way the fans could help decide which project they would prefer to see, and it would mean that unlike now where everything is "high concept" and has to be sold to a suit in one sentence or less it wouldn't matter how weird or dark or highbrow your idea was if enough of the audience liked the idea.

      If Serenity would have been made in this manner instead of by suits that expected they were getting the next Star Wars the movie would have had a smaller budget but could have been edgier and probably had a couple of sequels since it would encourage more interaction with the fans as they ultimately would have been writing the checks. Hell I don't see how it could be worse than the "high concept" and "Me too!" drivel we get nowadays on TV and in films.

      --
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    148. Re:Great book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, those parasites that front the money to get things done need to just go away. Bozo.

    149. Re:Great book by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      Huh? What's that got to do with anything?

      If you don't publish your diary, nobody gets to have it, copyrighted or not. This discussion is only about officially published stuff. You know, sent to an editorial and made into a book.

    150. Re:Great book by flaming+error · · Score: 1

      > Copyright and patent lawvare all about making sure the people who did the work
      That may be true for copyright, but patents don't require that the product exist. Lots of patents are about ideas the patent holder could never create.

    151. Re:Great book by Wildclaw · · Score: 1

      My idea is that copyright is supposed to serve society's interests. For that it should aim to maximize the incentive to produce works.

      Two things. First of all, your aim contradicts your idea. Specifically, your aim places the act of producing above people actually experiencing what is produced.

      Secondly, your implementation contradicts your aim/idea.

      For society, the value of a piece of art is the combined value received by all those experiencing that piece of art. (plus possible extra network effect value).

      Copyright by definition tries to restrict the number of people experiencing any specific piece of arts, and as such is quite counterproductive. The only one real societal argument for copyright at all, is that it has the possibility to increase the value of each piece of art is experienced even though fewer people experience it (quality over quantity).

      Claiming that copyright is good because it increases quantity is therefore in direct contradiction to any idea of maximizing societal benefit. If you want to maintain a pro-copyright position, quality should be your stance. Anything else is just too easily argued against.

    152. Re:Great book by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 2

      Well, I do want all countries to offer national treatment, without any minimum standards.

      Well that would require further treaties, which would be against your "unilateral" change.

      National registration would be ridiculously onerous as there are almost 200 countries in the world. Consider the case of a photographer that on uploading 50 new snaps to his website would have to fill out ten thousand forms if he wanted to avoid them being used by unscrupulous advertising agencies. National registration only worked because of local trade, local communication and local interest. In an era of global trade, global communication and global interest, it's just so blatantly unworkable that I don't know why I had to write this.

      HAL.

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    153. Re:Great book by Nadaka · · Score: 1

      The only "effective" way to "protect" your ideas is to never share them in the first place. Once you give it away, its too late.

    154. Re:Great book by irussel · · Score: 1

      > A good comment is like a BMW or a Volvo. It does the job it is meant to do, does it well, and rarely (if ever) needs to be repaired.

      My guess is you've never owned a BMW or Volvo. Maybe if you would've used Toyota or Honda in your analogy...

    155. Re:Great book by Patch86 · · Score: 1

      Admittedly it's been a while since college, but I seem to remember that that's incorrect.

      At the time, there was no notion of intellectual property. The playwright would deliver a manuscript to the playhouse owner, and that manuscript would be protected by all the normal laws of physical property (theft,destruction of property, etc.). However making copies would be fine (if you could get access to the thing without breaking any laws, obviously), copying out verbatim after watching a performance wasn't against any rules, and there was no reason not to make derivative works (indeed, all the best works WERE derivative works).

      Shakespeare operated in an environment where copyright rules as we know them today didn't exist, and he still created beautiful works prolifically, as did vast swathes of contempories. Bearing in mind the world's near total illiteracy and lack of printing or communication technologies, that period created perhaps disproportionately more great works in the English language than any other since.

    156. Re:Great book by flaming+error · · Score: 1

      Shakespeare was a playwright. His principal medium was not paper, but the stage.

      http://absoluteshakespeare.com/trivia/facts/facts.htm

      William never published any of his plays. We read his plays today only because his fellow actors John Hemminges and Henry Condell, posthumously recorded his work as a dedication to their fellow actor in 1623, publishing 36 of William’s plays. This collection known as The First Folio is the source from which all published Shakespeare books are derived and is an important proof that he authored his plays.

      His poetry, however, he did publish

      The Great Bard suffered breech of copyright. In 1609, many of his sonnets were published without the bard’s permission.

    157. Re:Great book by ewibble · · Score: 2

      Fuck the idea of "due compensation". Should a mason be paid in perpetuum for the work he did on a store front?

      Does the mason get paid a living wage on building the wall? Yes. Can the mason proceed to build an arbitrary number of walls? Yes. So the mason gets £x, €y or $z per hour, and can work hour after hour.

      An artist can keep doing live performances for ever too. The equivalent for a build is the got paid very little for the work but paid per hour that a person stayed in the building. Perhaps that is a good idea, it would encourage builders to make houses that last.

      Now, what's the going rate for a songwriter's work? Pennies per unit.

      When is the last time you went to a concert? Did it you pay a penny and that artist is making that amount per person there minus expenses. If you meant the writer (not singer) then I see that it is quite possible for the singer pays the to pay the writer up front.

      What's the going rate for a novellist's work? About £1, €1 or $1 per unit, if you're lucky.

      This a much better example, and may need some short term protection for these maybe a year, you keep hearing how good it is that they have good it is that a movie hasn't been pirated for a couple of days after its release. We want to encourage "great" artist to keep producing not live off royalties for the rest of there life

    158. Re:Great book by cforciea · · Score: 1

      Just to clarify, the special edition would have been a harder sell even in 1991, because with the copyright expired on the original trilogy, it would have had to compete with a free version of itself that just didn't have new special effects. Not that there is anything wrong with this, as if it were actually worthwhile on its own merits, it would have been profitable anyway. But as it stands, right now a significant portion of the special edition sales were of a result of consumers wanting a new copy of the old films and possibly having little to no interest in the modifications.

      The other result would be that in 1991, I would have been able to write unlicensed material using Star Wars characters and lore and sell it as my own. I think is the more interesting discussion, as I'm not sure how comfortable I am with authors having to deal with this sort of thing during their lifetime. There are, of course, compromises to be made on this. A full copyright could last 14 years, and then the author could retain a limited copyright protection in the form of a monopoly on commercial licensing until death. That way, Lucas could make money off of Star Wars until 1991, and then after that, I could freely burn a copy of the original movie for my friend, but I could not sell it to anybody at a profit. I would also therefore be able to write my own prequel trilogy if I wanted, but I could not sell it until after his death. That way, he gets fully control his franchise canon until his death (at which point his canon is finished in my eyes anyway), but at the same time we get to assimilate some portion of his contributions to society much sooner.

    159. Re:Great book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There are so many conundrums in copyright law that every almost proposed solution has some fatal flaw: short copyrights promote corporate waiting-it-out periods, copyrights until death promote death-wishes, copyrights tied to publication promote unserious publication, and if tied to sales promote fraudulent accounting. Promoting derivative work extensions or enhancements promote rewrites to avoid copyright enforcement. Clearly the copyrights for movies and software don't need to be as long as for books or music. Newspapers and magazines barely need copyrights at all. Non-fiction is often a stretch to put under copyright in theory, but in practice it's done anyway. Works already in the public domain should stay there. Orphaned works should go into the public domain (but how do you establish what is an orphaned work?). The best practice would be to require registration of copyright within one year of the death of the author and every five years after that for up to twenty-five years, with a minimum filing fee of $500 for books, $1000 for songs and some much larger number for movies. Companies would be required to register (they typically do so now), but pay much higher rates and re-register every five years. Thus, companies can decide if there is an economic advantage to maintaining copyright. Once a work fails to be registered it falls into the public domain automatically. Any change in ownership will require re-registration and proof of ownership.

    160. Re:Great book by dave420 · · Score: 1

      You're kidding, right? I'm prepared for a "woosh", but copyright defines the right one has to copy a work.

    161. Re:Great book by cforciea · · Score: 1

      The easy solution to the widow scenario is to have a minimum length for the copyright. It can last 14 years or for the author's lifetime, whichever is longer. If we believe an author's entitlement to profits is in actuality 14 years (or whatever other number), if he dies after that, it ends up being no more society's problem than when a construction worker's wife is deprived of income because of her husband's untimely death.

    162. Re:Great book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This seems to be very different in different countries. It's likely to be a derivative work according to US law (but not 100% certain). In some european countries the requirements for an independent work is a lot lower...

    163. Re:Great book by syousef · · Score: 1

      I would have to agree that the copyright and patent systems could be better. But abolishing them altogether could be disastrous. They do serve a purpose.

      Perhaps the car analogy is that thousands are killed by cars every year, but abolishing cars could be a disaster. Just because you can think of a disadvantage of something doesn't mean it's all bad and should be abolished. Too many times what I say is reduced to "X is all good" or "X is all bad". There are tradeoffs. Life isn't black and white.

      Disastrous? Give me a break. Stop drinking the coolaid or shilling. Your analogy makes no sense either. A better analogy would be allowing other companies to copy the cars so that others may drive them.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    164. Re:Great book by Zenaku · · Score: 1

      Why should we deprive that family of that income because of the untimely death of the author?

      I don't mean to sound crass or indifferent to the plight of dead authors' families, but. . . why shouldn't we? If a bricklayer, school teacher, or physician dies, that person's family is deprived of their income. If I died, my family would be deprived of my income.

      I'm sure there are exceptions with certain pension plans on so forth, but generally speaking, when someone dies, they stop earning a living, and their families are deprived of that income.

      What makes the authors' families special? If you want a financial safety net in the event of the primary earner's death, you purchase life insurance. That's what the rest of us do.

      --
      If fate makes you a motorcycle, you become a motorcycle.
    165. Re:Great book by spire3661 · · Score: 1

      While there might be fewer authors, on the whole, humanity would gain from the destruction of copyright as it exists now. IM all for authors being paid for reasonable amounts of time. I am not ok with an authors childrens childrens children still profiting from sales. Copyright should exist for no more then the length of a patent.

      --
      Good-bye
    166. Re:Great book by silverglade00 · · Score: 2

      Good point! That fish story sounds way more interesting than the boring thesis. It obviously deserves more money.

    167. Re:Great book by cherokee158 · · Score: 1

      Copyright does not protect ideas. Copyright is designed to protect the tangible expression of an idea.

    168. Re:Great book by spire3661 · · Score: 2

      NO. Money should not be a determining factor in the length of how long you can keep it locked up. Never forget that Copyright is a compromise between society and authors. Disney doesnt have enough money for me to allow them to keep Mickey Mouse, but apparently senators are cheaper......

      --
      Good-bye
    169. Re:Great book by pugugly · · Score: 2

      Score: -1, Factually incorrect.

      The first English copyright law was the Statute of Anne

      The Statute of Anne, short title Copyright Act 1709 8 Anne c.19; long title An Act for the Encouragement of Learning, by vesting the Copies of Printed Books in the Authors or purchasers of such Copies, during the Times therein mentioned, was the first copyright statute in the Kingdom of Great Britain (thus the United Kingdom, see copyright law of the United Kingdom). It was enacted in 1709 and entered into force on 10 April 1710. It is generally considered to be the first fully-fledged copyright statute. It is named after Anne, Queen of Great Britain, during whose reign it was enacted.

      The Statute of Anne is now seen as the origin of copyright law.[1]

      Since Will died almost a century prior to the origin of copyright law, you're not just wrong, you're egregiously wrong.

      With apologies, whoever marked this 'Informative' should be shot.

      Pug

      --
      An Invisible Entity of Vast Power whose existence must be taken on faith alone: Liberal Media
    170. Re:Great book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't think those two examples had any sort of financial benefit from their works? Fool.

      We no longer live in the kind of society where artists, musicians and authors can labour under noble/royal benefactors.

    171. Re:Great book by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      Well that would require further treaties, which would be against your "unilateral" change.

      Don't confuse a preference with a bargain. I suppose that if no one else were willing to unilaterally offer national treatment (though I vaguely recall that it's been done in the past in Europe somewhere), treaties for that and that alone might be made. But I can't imagine what the US would be able to bargain with at the table.

      National registration would be ridiculously onerous as there are almost 200 countries in the world.

      Firstly, lack of a registration system is ridiculously onerous to the public at large, which is a far larger and more important group than mere authors or rightsholders. Registration and other formalities (e.g. deposit, notice) are vital for reducing the public harm caused by copyright to roughly the minimum amount necessary to serve the public interest; they are vital for establishing precisely which works are and are not copyrighted; extremely helpful in upkeep of the market for creative works, so that rightsholders can be efficiently found, facilitating assignments and licensing; essential for national libraries and the preservation of knowledge.

      Secondly, persons doing business internationally already have to deal with a myriad of forms. Taxes, at the very least, must be paid; contracts must be agreed to, and unless the parties are naifs, they'll be in writing. Some countries may have censorship offices which will have to be dealt with. Local copyright collecting agencies may need to be registered with. So copyright registrations are no great burden; the form is about on par with a change of address form. In practice, few authors will care about a lot of these countries, and so can ignore the burden that may come with obtaining rights; others will care, and to them it will be nothing more than the cost of doing business. Indeed, if it costs more to get rights than the rights are worth, they won't even bother, since copyright is, after all, a purely economic matter.

      Thirdly, while I support registration, and I think that it is probably one of the most pressing copyright reforms needed in the US, it's up to other countries to decide whether or not they want to have registrations. If France says no, then no one's going to make them do it. The result would merely be that if an American author wants a copyright in the US and France, he registers the former and doesn't register the latter; if a French author wants the same, he does likewise. (In fact, if there's national treatment, but no minimum standards, there's actually no requirement that every country have copyright at all; if they don't believe it is in their own interests, who are we to argue?)

      Consider the case of a photographer that on uploading 50 new snaps to his website would have to fill out ten thousand forms if he wanted to avoid them being used by unscrupulous advertising agencies.

      Fourthly, you clearly don't understand registration. In the US, for example, where we still have at least some registration formalities left, though not as strong as they were or need to be, it's often possible to register works in batches. The 50 photographs could probably be handled in one single form. Nothing would prevent other countries from adopting or reviving similar procedures.

      Fifthly, while there are many countries in the world, only a few are generally worth a damn for most rightsholders. If I write a book, I might publish it in the US and Canada. If it's really popular, it might get exported or reprinted in other English-speaking countries. Only if it is really popular or somehow important is it likely to be translated into foreign languages, and then probably only a few. Even for works that need no translation, the market really isn't very global at all. It probably never will be.

      And if an author doesn't care enough about how his work will be protected in every corner of the world to take at least some modest actio

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    172. Re:Great book by Dragonslicer · · Score: 1

      No, because having copyright expire on death would provide a perverse incentive for murdering authors of famous works, like George Lucas for instance.

      I'm sorry, but why is this a bad thing?

      Because eventually someone would murder an author that we want to stay alive.

    173. Re:Great book by the_womble · · Score: 2

      Given that the Statute of Ann begins:

      Whereas Printers, Booksellers, and other Persons, have of late frequently taken
      the Liberty of Printing, Reprinting, and Publishing, or causing to be Print-ed, Reprinted, and Published Books,and other Writings, without the Con- sent of the Authors or Proprietors of such Books and Writings

      here

      It does not sound like there was copyright before then.

      There was a monopoly on printing, which arose out of government efforts to censor what was printed by restricting control of the printing presses. Sounds familiar.

    174. Re:Great book by nabsltd · · Score: 2

      Now, what's the going rate for a songwriter's work? Pennies per unit. What's the going rate for a novellist's work? About £1, €1 or $1 per unit, if you're lucky.

      So, what you're saying is that everyone should be paid a living wage for their time, regardless of the actual value? I think the name for that is "welfare".

      Basically, by your logic, if I toss some paint at a canvas, I should expect to be able to feed my family.

    175. Re:Great book by Dragonslicer · · Score: 1

      You're talking about the Star Wars franchise, though, not any individual piece of creative work. Even if the original three films were out of their copyright periods, and thus able to be freely redistributed, trademark law could possibly be used to prevent someone from creating a new "Star Wars" movie with the same characters or locations. If this isn't already the case, personally I'd be willing to support adding it to trademark law in exchange for shorter copyright periods.

    176. Re:Great book by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      In that case, who's going to buy the DVD? Everyone will torrent it. Who's going to watch it on TV with those annoying advert breaks when they can just torrent it?

      Well, we live in a world where people can do those things now. Yet somehow, people keep making DVDs and showing things on TV, and people keep buying those DVDs and watching those shows.

      People are willing to pay for things even when they don't strictly have to do so, though I'd agree that it is possible that the amount of money made might decline, and so the budget for works might decline. For video, the important thing is usually the writing, followed by the acting and direction. Writers are fairly cheap, and I'm not convinced that the biggest name actors are spectacularly better than far less expensive lower tier actors. As for effects, props, costumes, scenery, etc., none of that is actually necessary, though it can be nice. And modern technology can stretch budgets a lot further than used to be possible.

      It wouldn't work, sorry.

      Well, I'm not as certain about that as you are. I say we try it out and see. If it turns out that it really doesn't work, we can always change the laws back again. I am, after all, all about pragmatic solutions to promoting the progress of science.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    177. Re:Great book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This line of reasoning does not stand up to scrutiny. Let's assume that if it were not for copyright, nobody would pay for creative works, and no artists would create works without being paid.

      Copyright is abolished, which is to say that the originator of an idea no longer gets to dictate how others use their idea
      Nobody is willing to pay for creative works, since they can get them for free
      Authors are not willing to create without a monetary incentive
      Thus, the amount of new creative works decline to zero
      If nobody cares that there are no new creative works, then big whoop, there's no supply or demand
      Otherwise, those who want new creative works are going to come up with a way to encourage their creation... probably through monetary compensation

      So, to say that and end to copyright would kill creative works... it makes no sense.

    178. Re:Great book by cforciea · · Score: 1

      There are regulations in place that make your chair making business profitable when it wouldn't be under a true free market, actually. A bigger chair and furniture manufacturer can't engage in any number of different anti-competitive behaviors to put you out of business, for instance.

    179. Re:Great book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you take a look at 19th century activists for copyright, you see a lot of mention of widows and families of authors. That is the more realistic reason for keeping limited term copyright around.

      Not any more. Don't get me wrong, I agree about limited copyright terms -- 14 years fixed, end of story, sounds about right to me.

      I'm not talking about rich people like Lucas (or setting up generations of descendants for wealth) -- I'm talking about an author who makes maybe a few thousand dollars off of his writings and uses that income to help support his family.

      The law doesn't differentiate between the two. It's nice to say, "this guy's family really needs the money but this guy's family doesn't" but in real life, it's not so cut and dried.

      Why should we deprive that family of that income because of the untimely death of the author?

      We don't. It's called Medicare. It's called Medicaid. It's called Life Insurance. It's called $spouse goes out and gets a job.

      And also, why should we single out families of artists and not families of every other worker on the planet? How about my family? I fix computers for a living (and it isn't much of one). So who's gonna support them if I die suddenly? How about I get paid... oh, I dunno... one half of one cent per minute of uptime for every computer that I keep running. How's that? And I think this should last for 98 years. WHY ARE YOU DEPRIVING MY FAMILY OF THIS INCOME THAT I EARNED? DON'T YOU CARE FOR MY FAMILY??!?!

      Please stop spreading the crazy idea that people are going to go around murdering authors -- it was discussed historically, but it was never taken seriously. The real argument is about families.

      No, it isn't. It's about special pleading.

      Posted anon because of previous mods.

    180. Re:Great book by cforciea · · Score: 1

      The owner is only the owner because they got the right to the works for free. The Tolkien estate does a better job freeloading than I could ever dream of by that metric.

    181. Re:Great book by houghi · · Score: 1

      Even if sold and made for commerce, I doubt that will be the reason for Tolkien to not publish anymore.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    182. Re:Great book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only copyright term that makes any sense is life of the author. The only owner that makes any sense is the author of the work. Handling the creation of works under corporate employment can easily be handled via contracts for exclusive licensing with the author.

    183. Re:Great book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure, but didn't they go a "bit" overboard with it? I mean years after death of the author its still copyrighted? How much does author at that point care or earn money from it?

      The author doesn't. The artificial constructs of corporations driven by greedy, soulless men care.

    184. Re:Great book by Draek · · Score: 1

      Fair point, but just because you can think of an advantage of something doesn't mean it's beneficial and should be preserved either, and I see nothing in your post showing why the tradeoffs in copyright would have a positive net effect on society.

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
    185. Re:Great book by LordNacho · · Score: 1

      It seems to me that it's easier to figure out a good time limit than a monetary one.

      Say, the $5M. Why precisely that number? How do you adapt to the economy? $5M in 10 years might be $1M today. Also some works are expensive. That would make big movies go out of copyright right in the first week.

      Of course there's a million variations. How about we say 5M in profits? Then you're guaranteed to make money before your copyright expires. How about we inflation index the awards at the beginning, so the time value thing is less of a problem, but you still need to collect the money sooner rather than later? And instead of 5M specifically, we say when the IRR is x%? Etc, etc. Nothing's perfect.

      The point is a specific length of time is a bit of a blunt instrument (in fact, rules are blunt instruments). If we want people to make money from creative works, but want to limit their power over derivative works, this is something we could think about.

    186. Re:Great book by vadim_t · · Score: 2

      Just to clarify, the special edition would have been a harder sell even in 1991, because with the copyright expired on the original trilogy, it would have had to compete with a free version of itself that just didn't have new special effects. Not that there is anything wrong with this, as if it were actually worthwhile on its own merits, it would have been profitable anyway. But as it stands, right now a significant portion of the special edition sales were of a result of consumers wanting a new copy of the old films and possibly having little to no interest in the modifications.

      Right.

      But, what does society get from all this?

      Copyright is "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries."

      So are we really promoting progress of the Arts by letting Lucas make lots of cash by re-releasing the same movie several times, slightly touched up? Wouldn't the Arts progress a bit faster if he actually had to come up with something new?

      The other result would be that in 1991, I would have been able to write unlicensed material using Star Wars characters and lore and sell it as my own. I think is the more interesting discussion, as I'm not sure how comfortable I am with authors having to deal with this sort of thing during their lifetime. There are, of course, compromises to be made on this. A full copyright could last 14 years, and then the author could retain a limited copyright protection in the form of a monopoly on commercial licensing until death. That way, Lucas could make money off of Star Wars until 1991, and then after that, I could freely burn a copy of the original movie for my friend, but I could not sell it to anybody at a profit. I would also therefore be able to write my own prequel trilogy if I wanted, but I could not sell it until after his death. That way, he gets fully control his franchise canon until his death (at which point his canon is finished in my eyes anyway), but at the same time we get to assimilate some portion of his contributions to society much sooner.

      Well, again, what does the society gets out of it? If somebody invents an useful literary brick and had plenty time to make a good amount of profit from it, what are we gaining by waiting for the author to die before starting to make neat stuff with it?

    187. Re:Great book by osu-neko · · Score: 1

      Is that fantasy or sci-fi?

      Eh? It's the supreme law of the land, in the US, it is written into the constitution

      *whoosh*

      (Answering OP) I suspect it's fantasy. With SCOTUS deciding that perpetual copyright is A-OK as long as each extension is voted on, the days of "limited times" are long past.

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    188. Re:Great book by Draek · · Score: 1

      In that case, who's going to buy the DVD?

      People who want a product made to a given standard of quality, or are ready to pay for the convenience of not downloading anything themselves.

      Oh, wait, you meant who's going to buy the $30+ DVD? nobody, and I'm perfectly fine with that.

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
    189. Re:Great book by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      Star Wars would be classed as a work for hire. The individual who produced it is unimportant.

    190. Re:Great book by giuseppemag · · Score: 1

      Definitely, yes...

      --
      My book: Friendly F#, fun with game development and XNA; my game: Galaxy Wars by VSTeam; my gamedev language: Casanova.
    191. Re:Great book by houghi · · Score: 1

      Then I hope they won't know of the excistence of Bored of the Rings. Great and funny read.

      OK, it is indeed a parody, but that is just a name. You could even call The Last Ring-bearer a parody if you like.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    192. Re:Great book by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      So far as I know, Tolkien Estate has trademarked names of many characters and places for Tolkien's works. E.g. Shire is a trademark.

    193. Re:Great book by kwerle · · Score: 1

      The point (and yes I am just parroting Lessig here) was that the Statute of Anne was the replacement for the old common law copyrights which were perpetual. The point of the Statute of Anne was to stop copyrights being perpetual in English law...

      I'm in way over my head here, but...

      In this context, what does 'perpetual' mean? Does it mean the lifetime of the author, or of a playhouse, or (as some others have implied) is it just synonymous with ownership of the [printed] media?

      I wonder if you suppose that kind of copyright would extend until far after the original author's death.

    194. Re:Great book by antdude · · Score: 1

      "Precious" money. ;)

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
    195. Re:Great book by Planesdragon · · Score: 1

      Tell me again, how exactly copyright encourages creation of new works?

      It keeps publishers from simply taking whatever they want and re-selling it, without giving a dime to the author. If you abandoned copyright and relied only on contract law protection, you would quickly find publishers creating subsidiary corporations with the intent of having said subsidiary declare bankruptcy and thus nullify the contract. This unprotected script would then be re-printed with wild abandon by the publisher, and the author would be without any recourse to gain any share of their revenue. If the author attempted to publish themselves, they would soon find a greater and greater share of their time spent on the legal and managerial aspects of publishing, instead of creating a new work.

      Or, in other words, COPYRIGHT MAKES IT PROFITABLE TO BE CREATIVE.

      (Maybe you were wondering about the current duration of copyright law, which is an entirely separate matter than the inherent reason of copyright itself.)

    196. Re:Great book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, because having copyright expire on death would provide a perverse incentive for murdering authors of famous works, like George Lucas for instance.

      After the last Indiana Jones how much more incentive do you need?

    197. Re:Great book by Draek · · Score: 1

      Because nothing is new, everything is derivative. Yes, even Tolkien.

      Really, we established that years ago, did you buy that account on eBay? I can't see how you'd maintain that hopelessly silly notion of 'new' for so long here on Slashdot.

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
    198. Re:Great book by GooberToo · · Score: 1

      Of course everything is ultimately derivative. Just the same, there is a huge difference between vaguely derivative and wholesale usurpation. Its the difference between inspiration and claiming another's works as you're own.

    199. Re:Great book by DMUTPeregrine · · Score: 3, Interesting

      How about this: Copyright is free and automatic for one year. After that it must be registered, for a fee of Ten dollars (to be adjusted for inflation/deflation every ten years) and renewed every year. The renewal fee shall double each year.
      1 year = free.
      2 years = $10
      3 years = $20
      4 years = $40
      5 years = $80
      6 years = 160
      etc, etc.
      At 19 years it costs over a million dollars a year. If you are making over a million dollars a year from the work society still considers it valuable in its original from. If you have not been able to make a profit in this time, then the work is clearly not profitable, and should be released to the public domain for others to improve upon.
      Unless a company is making an exponentially increasing profit such a system will put a soft cap on the length of copyright. That length will be determined by the value of the work to the creator. Furthermore, since the fees increase so much for long-held works there is a strong incentive to create many new works, rather than attempt to keep old works protected.
      I'd also like to see a GPL-like or CC-by-SA type option for a period, which would waive the fee.

      --
      Not a sentence!
    200. Re:Great book by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      Because people who take risk should be rewarded for their risk. Otherwise this economy would die as would most of western civilization.

    201. Re:Great book by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      The fact that people may get sick of an original idea is not germane to the discussion of copyright.We don't have copyright laws to appease the consumer.

    202. Re:Great book by drfireman · · Score: 1

      Ignoring the sarcasm, I guess your point is that copyright has nothing to do with promoting great work, only crap. This is obviously ridiculous. Crap will always be in vastly greater supply, and copyright means we'll get a lot more of both. There would certainly be both brilliant work and utter crap with or without copyright. But since copyright creates a financial incentive, it probably promotes crap more than it promotes good work. But that's probably a really narrow difference. I could equally well argue that without copyright, only the independently wealthy would be able to devote their time to creating great works of art. Even with copyright, there is very little opportunity to earn a living as an artist.

      Copyright law in the US is a pile of garbage that does much more harm than good to the arts. But the absence of copyright law would also be a pile of garbage that would do much more harm than good to the arts.

    203. Re:Great book by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      I do know about that usage of the term 'copy'. However, the simpler explanation is that in this case, the copy in copyright simply means duplicate.

    204. Re:Great book by lgw · · Score: 3, Informative

      England is a common-law regime. Most laws at that time were just writing down what the accepted common law (tradition) was, not creating new legal concepts. "Law" preceeds "statute" in just about every culture.

      There was effectively perpetual copyright in common law, but enforced IIRC through the printer's guild. That was only true copyright, however: the right to print a copy. It wasn't performance rights, derivative works, or other modern concepts under the copyright umbrella.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    205. Re:Great book by roca · · Score: 1

      Would having significantly fewer books and movies be a bad thing?

      Maybe we'd be spared the thousands of Harry Potter wannabees. Maybe movie theatres wouldn't be flooded with sequels and remakes.

      There are far more books and movies produced than anyone can read or watch. We should be thinking about quality, not quantity.

    206. Re:Great book by lgw · · Score: 1

      So you're saying the creative work, specifically, has no value to you? That writing songs is wortless, only perfarmance has worth? That writing software shouldn't be a paid job?

      Before copyright we relied on a patronage system. There were far fewer artists (per caipta) as a result.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    207. Re:Great book by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      The fact that people may get sick of an original idea is not germane to the discussion of copyright

      I'm just saying what I think would have happened if copyright was 14 years:

      In 1991, the copyright for the original would have expired, and everybody who wanted could go and make their own movie in the universe. With something as popular as Star Wars I imagine there'd be 20 movies by now, just like there are what, 30 movies based on Romeo and Juliet?

      I think that as a consequence every interesting angle to it would have been done to death several years ago, and so Lucas would have to come up with something new to have any hope of selling it.

      We don't have copyright laws to appease the consumer.

      Yes we do. We, the people (consumers mainly), allow authors a temporary monopoly on their work because we think the tradeoff is worth it. Should enough people decide it's not working well anymore it can be changed.

    208. Re:Great book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's clearly a parody of the original. Isn't that still protected speech?

    209. Re:Great book by Draek · · Score: 1

      True, but no sane person would argue this is the latter, yet the law treats it as such.

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
    210. Re:Great book by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      I'm not trolling, I'm seriously asking...is it implied or actually stated somewhere that society is to get something out of it?

    211. Re:Great book by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      I don't understand why I should care whether or not a foreign country has copyright laws, whether merely on paper or actually in practice.

      So someone in Whateveristan can't buy 1 copy of your book (I'm being generous assuming they actually buy one), make copies of your books, and sell them on eBay to your neighbor, thus depriving you from making money on the purchase. (I presume you wouldn't want an import duty put on all packages, like some countries have.)

    212. Re:Great book by BlueStraggler · · Score: 1

      This book derives from Tolkien's copy, not just his ideas.

      I'm afraid you got that backwards. The only derivative "copy" consists of a handful of place names and character names.

    213. Re:Great book by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      Two things. First of all, your aim contradicts your idea. Specifically, your aim places the act of producing above people actually experiencing what is produced.

      Nobody will experience it if it's not made in the first place.

      Few big works will be made if the moment it's released the first person who wants can go and sell all the copies they want without giving back.

      But I'm interested. For instance, how would one make a movie without copyright, and how would quality be maximized?

    214. Re:Great book by roju · · Score: 1

      I don't understand why I should care whether or not a foreign country has copyright laws, whether merely on paper or actually in practice.

      Because your Hollywood makes bazillions of dollars selling movies internationally and would throw an absolute fit if other countries didn't.

    215. Re:Great book by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      In the US at least, copyrights include the right to prohibit importation of copies (subject to some modest exceptions). So the copy from Whateveristan can be held up at the border by customs.

      I have no problem with a copyright holder preventing someone from importing a copy of the work that, had the laws of the country to which it is imported applied in the place where it was made, it would have been made unlawfully.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    216. Re:Great book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So sure the copyright is absurdly long and shouldn't apply to this particular case. But fan fiction can be detrimental to writers -- it's essentially other people using your ideas. Even if there's no money involved, an author (or any artist) has a vision in mind for his books, an investment in the characters and world and how they develop. They *care* about their creation. Fan fiction, while generally good natured, still has a chance to corrupt the author's ideal, to sully the characters and detract from the book in general. It's like letting someone else raise your kid. They might do a better job of it, or a decent job of it...but they might screw it up altogether. (The kid analogy only goes so far -- you care about your kid, but you don't have ultimate control over him the way you would a book.)

    217. Re:Great book by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      With something as popular as Star Wars I imagine there'd be 20 movies by now, just like there are what, 30 movies based on Romeo and Juliet?

      And I'm saying since George Lucas is still alive and kicking and still in the movie business, his Star Wars copyright shouldn't be up for expiration discussion. Shakespeare has been dead a long time. I'm sure he doesn't mind they made a bad urban interpretation of his work.

      We, the people (consumers mainly), allow authors a temporary monopoly on their work because we think the tradeoff is worth it. Should enough people decide it's not working well anymore it can be changed.

      Well you are at least the third person to say this, so I'm just asking where does it say this is true? The Constitution gives congress the power to grant copyright to individuals. It doesn't give consumers the right to grant "temporary monopolies". I don't think it says anything about for the good fo society or for the consumer (but I may be mistaken, as I'm only going on people's summaries in this discussion about what it says).

    218. Re:Great book by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      I see it implied in:

      "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries."

      It doesn't say "to promote the profit of the authors", but "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts", i.e, to promote general advancement, to benefit everybody.

      Besides, from a practical standpoint, why would I vote for somebody else to get a privileged position without getting something in exchange for it?

    219. Re:Great book by GooberToo · · Score: 1

      True, but no sane person would argue this is the latter, yet the law treats it as such.

      I don't believe you are correct. In fact, the inverse appears to be true.

      If you develop a universe full of characters and then I come along and take that and tell a story, or worse, retell your story, most people absolutely will have a problem with that; especially you.

      Now if you create a unique universe with unique characters which are simply inspired by some of my works, most everyone will agree everyone benefits. That is, in fact, more or less how things work today; aside from a few nut jobs like Lucas.

      Imagine other authors coming in a diluting the Harry Potter franchise. That alone could have prevented the creation of all of her other books. How many other works have been created and yet inspired, because they couldn't rip off Harry Potter?

    220. Re:Great book by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      And I'm saying since George Lucas is still alive and kicking and still in the movie business, his Star Wars copyright shouldn't be up for expiration discussion. Shakespeare has been dead a long time. I'm sure he doesn't mind they made a bad urban interpretation of his work.

      Why?

      Well you are at least the third person to say this, so I'm just asking where does it say this is true? The Constitution gives congress the power to grant copyright to individuals. It doesn't give consumers the right to grant "temporary monopolies". I don't think it says anything about for the good fo society or for the consumer (but I may be mistaken, as I'm only going on people's summaries in this discussion about what it says).

      And who is the constitution written for, and what is the point of it? Where does the government get the power to grant copyrights if not from the people who made it?

      I think it's more than clear in:

      We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

    221. Re:Great book by phorm · · Score: 1

      We already *HAVE* something not much different than a patronage system, except now those who allow a work to go from manuscript to book/movie form are big studios rather than rich individuals.

      However, we also have an internet, and increasingly affordable equipment, software, etc. Self-distribution isn't impossible for a group of dedicated individuals.

    222. Re:Great book by Myopic · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You have made a moral argument for copyright, which I reject. I don't pay the workmen who built my house each year that I live in it; General Motors didn't get a cut when I bought my used Jeep Liberty vehicle; I don't pay the Ginsu company a royalty every time I cut meat with its knives -- and I reject a moral argument that I "should" do so in any of those cases. For intellectual works, I feel similarly. I get up every morning and make my money by performing my craft, which is software programming, which is just like almost everybody makes their money, for performances.

      The arguments in favor of copyright which I accept are practical arguments. I want the best ongoing media creation I can have, and I support whatever laws help me get it. Some intellectual property doesn't lend itself to performance-style income, such as long-term-use-with-no-support software, or literary novels, or blockbuster movies. Because I like software, novels and movies, I support laws that help me get those things.

      The question, then, is not what do we "owe" the authors (answer: nothing) but rather what system do we need to encourage them. Do we need copyrights that last longer than two human lifetimes? I don't think we do. Do we need copyrights that preclude derivative works? I don't think we do. How about preventing collage and sampling? I don't think so. I think we can have all the benefits of copyright, and much less of the drawbacks, if we change the balances in the copyright system.

    223. Re:Great book by Unequivocal · · Score: 1

      If by "story" you mean the name of the story and the name of the characters, then copyright and trademark do protect the owner. If you want to retell the same story using a different title and new names of characters/locations, and w/new prose etc, you're free to do so. "Wind done gone" for example got into some trouble b/c it was clearly re-using the same story title and many character names, though arguably it was satire and so protected from infringement.

      So Shakespeare's copying of the ancients, as best I understand it, was re-using characters and plots that appear in multiple previous authors' works. This kind of re-use of common culture is still permitted today. It's direct re-use of specific creations by orgs/individuals that is prohibited.

    224. Re:Great book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, I'm willing to bet he travels with a security contingent after those last three train wrecks.

    225. Re:Great book by Unequivocal · · Score: 1

      Did you just call the whole body of Shakespeare's work "schlock?" Just checking to be sure that's what you meant.

      IMO, just b/c something is popular doesn't mean it's "shlocky" (schlock means crude or inferior). Shakespeare's remarkable use of the English language has rarely been equaled since, and I'm far from alone in this opinion.. The fact that he could create high uses of the language and still make his works accessible and popular simply reinforces the notion that his work was not schlocky. But certainly many popular works then and since *are* schlocky (among them the tv shows you mentioned).

    226. Re:Great book by Chaonici · · Score: 1

      Authors don't have 'moral rights' in many places, including the US.

    227. Re:Great book by commodore6502 · · Score: 0

      >>>because [almost every] person with copyrights get ripped off by their publisher

      Fixed.

      >>>every creator should lose

      I never said that. Strawman argument. I said that copyright is claimed to protect artists' income, but that claim is false. It does nothing of the sort but only protects the Megacorps' income. i.e. Copyright does not work.

      --
      Information wants to be expensive AND wants to be free. So you have Value vs. Cheap distribution fighting each other.
    228. Re:Great book by commodore6502 · · Score: 1

      >>>So copyright holder should be able to fight to protect their ideas?

      Sure.
      Lock them in a safe, and guard it with a gun. They certainly have that right but AFTER the idea is released voluntarily, they have no "right" to not have it copied or shared. They only have a temporary monopoly Privilege, which society can take away any time it desires.

      --
      Information wants to be expensive AND wants to be free. So you have Value vs. Cheap distribution fighting each other.
    229. Re:Great book by lennier · · Score: 1

      No, because having copyright expire on death would provide a perverse incentive for murdering authors of famous works, like George Lucas for instance.

      I'm sorry, but why is this a bad thing?

      Because Stephen Spielberg would put George Lucas' brain in a robotic chassis from A.I. and we would witness the true power of the Extended Remastered Director's Edition of Skywalker Ranch. Afraid? Yousa will be. YOUSSA WILL BE.

      --
      You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
    230. Re:Great book by lennier · · Score: 1

      But SWtOR will be good...at least better than the Transformer and Harry Potter video games, amiright?

      I liked the scene in Harry Potter and the Transformers where Lucius Malfoy turns into a Volkswagen.

      --
      You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
    231. Re:Great book by lennier · · Score: 1

      Benefit : you get this new work for free.

      I'm not sure how more free-loaders benefits society.

      If the cost of their 'free-loading' is nil (as it is with copying of information), then society benefits enormously - potentially infinitely - by having lots of members who are now familiar with great works of art and literature. Art and knowledge are valuable in themselves because they give insight into the human condition. Someone who has been exposed to good art and knowledge is a better person: more productive, more compassionate, more skilled. And future generations can keep receiving all these benefits.

      For zero cost to society of this 'freeloading', it receives back a return on the order of millions to billions in the lives of people.

      Or, society could impose a cost - a rental or tax - on art and knowledge, and receive back an impoverished, frightened, ignorant, fearful population, because what you tax (or rent instead of give away) you get less of.

      --
      You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
    232. Re:Great book by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      But *would* the copy likely be held up in customs? If it's just being sent via regular mail, I suspect not.

    233. Re:Great book by arivanov · · Score: 1

      They have not gone after David Brin. He has put the same argument along with an even more scathing critique of Shanara, Star Wars and a a few others in a couple of short essays. In fact I recall a discussion around one of them on Slashdot 10+ years ago. It was either on Salon or maybe even on Slashdot itself posted by Brin.

      I guess it is harder to go after a multiple winner of the Hugo and Nebula awards compared to going after a relatively unknown Russian.

      --
      Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
      http://www.sigsegv.cx/
    234. Re:Great book by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Yep. The problem with our system is that copyright is now essentially unlimited and perpetual. Tolkien wrote his books decades ago, and he's long since dead. His books should all be free now (obviously, you'd need to pay something for a nice printed version, but that price shouldn't include any more royalties).

      We need to go back to short copyrights, like 20 years or less.

    235. Re:Great book by pclminion · · Score: 1

      If you're interested in new works related to something existing, how about you just say "when you've made 5M bucks off your book, it's off copyright"?

      So, if your work costs more than $5 million to produce, you can't do it and make a profit? Or do you mean $5 million in profit and then you're done? That's a great incentive to cook the books and otherwise conceal the actual profit you are taking.

      The basic idea of "You can be successful but only to a certain point" seems like not much of an incentive to work hard at anything. Why shouldn't we have the opportunity to become fabulously wealthy? So long as EACH of us has the same opportunity.

    236. Re:Great book by lennier · · Score: 1

      Demanding everything be free, especially when the owner doesn't want you to have it for free, indeed does make one a free-loader.

      Demanding that slave-owners free their slaves, which were bought with the owner's own money and which the owner would suffer a loss for freeing, also wasn't popular with those owners at the time, and similar slurs were tossed around against the freedom activists. But these days, we don't consider the proper word to describe advocates of giving away purchased human property to be 'free-loaders'. Rather, it's the owners of others lives and labours who we consider to be profiting unfairly.

      The argument can be made that since freedom of sharing one's thoughts (including thoughts received from others) is fundamental to human freedom, that 'intellectual property' is as much of a philosophical non-sequitor in a free society as 'human property' was three hundred years ago.

      --
      You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
    237. Re:Great book by Unkyjar · · Score: 1

      Actually that's the US version, you're looking for the UK version for this issue:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_dealing

    238. Re:Great book by LordNacho · · Score: 1

      Well, it's a compromise between only having one guy make a load of money on an idea, vs a whole bunch of people ripping it off and not making much. I don't have anything against people making lots of money, and 5M is just an example figure. And as I mentioned elsewhere, it's really just trying to think of some alternative to just having a single length of time.

    239. Re:Great book by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 1

      Because people who take risk should be rewarded for their risk.

      So the state should subsidize people who play roulette? Or who walk a high wire without a net?

      I'm all for a social safety net so that people who take *socially* *useful* risks aren't destroyed if their ambition fails. But what does that have to do with subsidizing parasitic investment?

      An economy that depends on a investment class that reaps reward without doing productive work will eventually collapse.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    240. Re:Great book by Lehk228 · · Score: 1

      5 million gross revenue from sales, rental and all other licenses, when multiple works are in a series or other multi-part IP franchise then license revenue that is not explicitly linked to a particular work is counted towards the oldest work in the franchise

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    241. Re:Great book by cforciea · · Score: 1

      With regard to the Star Wars remakes, I was more or less agreeing with you. I just felt the need to make specific the implications with regard to the IP of the franchise and more specifically the remakes; the way you stated it made it almost sound like Lucas could protect the copyright of the original trilogy by putting out slightly remastered versions every 14 years.

      As for protecting commercial reproduction, we gain cohesive canon within a franchise until the original creator of said mythology passes away. To take the Star Wars example further (and please no facetious remarks as I talk about the Star Wars prequels, I know they aren't everyone's cup of tea), it would be conceivable that without some sort of protection, after The Phantom Menace came out, somebody else could have jumped in and released a movie before Clone Wars came out that attempted to beat it to the market and usurp the direction of the series. You run into bizarre issues where an author has control over their series through serialized books when they release them over the span of a few years, but if they either keep expanding the same mythology for more than 14 years or (like in the case of Star Wars) decide to revisit it after a significant break, they lose the ability to protect their newly produced IP for even a day after publication. On the other hand, we don't want to renew their copyright claim on old works just because they have written sequels, so it seems like my suggested compromise is a happy medium. I am, of course, not so attached to it that I don't think there are any other ways to address my concern.

    242. Re:Great book by ThosLives · · Score: 1

      Why shouldn't we have the opportunity to become fabulously wealthy? So long as EACH of us has the same opportunity.

      Sounds good on paper, until you realize that we live in a universe of finite resources. I'd argue that it's probably mathematically impossible for even just two individuals to have the same opportunity for one simple reason if nothing else: the distribution of resources across the universe is non-uniform.

      --
      "There are a dozen opinions on a matter until you know the truth. Then there is only one." - CS Lewis (paraprhase)
    243. Re:Great book by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      An economy without an investment class has already collapsed.

    244. Re:Great book by ThosLives · · Score: 1

      This is because people forget that what people are paying for when they buy a book, movie, recording, etc. is not just the emotional or intellectual experience related to reading, hearing, or watching that work, but they are also paying for the physical manifestation of that work: they are paying for the ability to control when that experience can occur.

      (A question just occurs to me: Is there a rational, first-principles argument that indicates the original agent of manifestation of such a work should be granted the ability to dictate such control in the first place?)

      If some person can provide (or is willing to provide) an equally emotionally/intellectually stimulating manifestation for a lower cost, it's actually beneficial for society for that to occur. The legislated monopoly on intellectual property increases the cost of manifestation so that it might increase immediate monetary profit, but it has some difficult to quantify expense in terms of lost emotional/intellectual experience and economic inefficiencies.

      If you can guarantee higher income through force - which is all legislation really is - you'll do it rather than compete fairly, even though there are probably people willing to create the manifestations and distribute them for a lower price. This means that there is a real economic loss associated with the artificial monopoly.

      --
      "There are a dozen opinions on a matter until you know the truth. Then there is only one." - CS Lewis (paraprhase)
    245. Re:Great book by ThosLives · · Score: 1

      Hey now, we'll not be having any of that reductio ad absurdum logic nonsense in here!

      --
      "There are a dozen opinions on a matter until you know the truth. Then there is only one." - CS Lewis (paraprhase)
    246. Re:Great book by c0lo · · Score: 1

      After limited times, meaning a short amount of time, the duration of the copyright expires, and new works can be made based on the old work. This is how copyright avoids stifling new works -- old works' copyright expires. This promotes progress in the arts and sciences because there is now not much (if any) profit in rehashing old works.

      Is that fantasy or sci-fi?

      Delusion.

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    247. Re:Great book by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "So to compare copyright to manual labour, you're going to have to explain to me who on Earth is going to spend £5,000 to be the first person to listen to a single song, or £20,000 to be the first person to listen to a novel"

      So to compare copyright to manual labour, you don't need to explain who is going to pay to be the first person to listen or read, just who is going to pay to be the first person to *get* it.

      I'll tell you who: A newspaper editor or a show manager, that's who. And it's not even as if it were innovative at all. Who do you think that paid Alexander Dumas? Why do you think Shakespeare wrote so many plays?

      Do you want the latest and greatest Grisham's hit published weekly in your newspaper? Pay him big dollars. Do you want your artist do jour to have new songs for her next world-wide tour? Pay the composer big dollars. Do you want your channel news to have a smashing head music? ditto.

    248. Re:Great book by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      I can see how that might be a problem. I'd like ideas to be shared. I wonder if there's something we could do to encourage people to share their ideas. Perhaps we could agree to let them have the sole right to sell copies of their ideas for a limited time.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    249. Re:Great book by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "Before copyright we relied on a patronage system."

      That's a solution. But it's not the only one.

      If you own a theater you want the newest and most exciting plays from the most reknowed artists, so you pay for them.

      If you own a newspaper you want the newest novel from the most reknowed writer, so you pay for them.

      If you are a singer, you want the best composers writing songs for your next world-wide tour, so you pay for them.

      And knowing you can have for free some time in the future means almost nothing: you can see the superbowl final or the last chapter of your favorite series anytime but still they get biggest audiences on their first acting.

      "There were far fewer artists (per caipta) as a result."

      I don't buy that. Maybe there were fewer people (on percentage) making a live out of entertaiment (and even this is disputable: do you know how many paino players there were up to about 1920? quite a lot; recording industry killed that), but this doesn't mean less artists (how many Mozart, Shakespeare, Velazquez, Rodin...-level artists do you know living today?).

    250. Re:Great book by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "We no longer live in the kind of society where artists, musicians and authors can labour under noble/royal benefactors."

      But they surely can work under industry benefactors (well, or even "moneyfactors" for that matter).

    251. Re:Great book by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "More importantly, why would a 10 page short story about how funny a fish finds humans that took a week to write be capped at the same level as a 1000 page thesis on the human condition that took a decade to complete?"

      Because it makes no difference. Or is it anything in current copyright law that makes differences between the two?

    252. Re:Great book by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      " I'm talking about an author who makes maybe a few thousand dollars off of his writings and uses that income to help support his family. Why should we deprive that family of that income because of the untimely death of the author?"

      Because we already have a welfare system that takes care of that, not only for writers but for everybody.

      Why a writer's widow should have better welfare cover than the widow of a mason?

    253. Re:Great book by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "Because people who take risk should be rewarded for their risk"

      That's simply stupidly obnoxious.

      We should and do support others adding value to our society and that's explicitly what copyright laws are intended for. Since it's obvious that current copyright laws do a lot of things other that protecting people adding value to society even things directly against people adding value to society, it's time to change them to readapt them to their intended purpouse.

    254. Re:Great book by PCM2 · · Score: 1

      Shakespear was published under a regime of perpetual copyright.

      Not quite accurate, since Shakespeare wrote plays and he wrote them for performance, not to for people to read. The First Folio, which is generally regarded as the first "authorized" collection of Shakespeare's works, was not published until seven years after Shakespeare was dead.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    255. Re:Great book by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "But I'm interested. For instance, how would one make a movie without copyright, and how would quality be maximized?"

      By means of standard trade secrets and the ability to play it first.

      It's not even a novelty since that was the way it started: cinema theatres were owned by studios. Even now most money is earned in the first weeks of exhibition. Allow for the Universal to own their own theatres, make their own marketing campaigns and let them have the premier. Pre-screeners would still be illegal since there were not previous public exhibition and they owning the cinema theatres (and therefor allowed to forbid cameras in the show) they can control quality copycats.

    256. Re:Great book by hawk · · Score: 1

      Unless he was up against a fully decent lawyer, who would explain that telling a story from another perspective is a well-known literary device, but not parody . . .

      hawk, esq., not giving legal advice on the matter

    257. Re:Great book by bakes · · Score: 1

      I like the basic concept, but who gets the money from these fees?

      --
      Ho! Haha! Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Spin! Ha! Thrust!
    258. Re:Great book by jschrod · · Score: 1
      Well, in the case of Tolkien's estate, they deserved it. The shall earn what they sow.

      For the others, you're right, of course.

      --

      Joachim

      People don't write Manifestos any more -- what's going on in this world? [Frank Zappa]

    259. Re:Great book by westlake · · Score: 1

      I know the Tolkien estate profits off of Lord of the Rings, but I don't see how that encourages new works.

      "Dungeons & Dragons"

      The game profited enormously from the discovery of Tolkien by collegians in the mid-sixties --- and to this day, the bog-standard fantasy RPG remains Middle-Earth in very thin disguise.

      I have no great love for derivatives.

      Heinlein's sub-light speed space "arks" were crafted with particular care to make them plausible. But his genius is shown in the Howard families - who have a compelling reason to build such a thing, or to steal one ---

      and he didn't need to introduce a single Cylon into his story to set things in motion.

      That is a lesson worth learning.

      The geek has been obsessed with Star Trek: TOS for 46 years.

      The chances are really quite good that if he doodles a starship it will look like Kirk's Enterprise. The chances are even better that his Star Trek fan flick will be a meticulous re-creation of sets and props.

      But won't be treading any new ground.

      Cordwainer Smith's "Think Blue, Count Two" anticipates TNGs Holodeck and a cybernetic technology that seems eerily on target now.

      The illusions - the characters and stories - animated and performed by the laminated mouse brain hidden deep within the ship have one purpose only: to keep the crew and passengers sane during the interminable outbound passage.

      The median human life span in Smith's universe was 400 years and the last long run exposed a level of violence and perversion in humanity that hadn't been exposed for close on to 10,000 years.

      The fan can't re-configure a story like this as a "Star Trek" episodes because, in any of a dozen ways it will break canon. The fan is too close to the original to do that, and his audience even more so.

    260. Re:Great book by Teancum · · Score: 1

      Considering that the printing press itself was a relatively new invention at the time, I have a hard time believing there was much in terms of ancient common law tradition that applied to something even related to "the right to print a copy".

      There may have been "gentleman's agreements" and traditions between members of the official printing guilds not to print each other's works, but the tradition to duplicate books was well in hand and well established by tradition much earlier. The "right to copy" depended upon the physical owner of the book, which is where any sort of copyright tradition came from. That makes sense too back when books were transcribed by hand using a quill, where an unauthorized copy was literally theft as you had to steal a physical book to make a copy.

      Within 100 years of the introduction of printing by Gutenberg, the number of books available in Europe grew almost 100 times what was available previously, with the definition of a book meaning something about the size and number of words as the Bible.

      By the time of the Queen Anne statues, there became a serious problem with "gray market" printing where books would be physically printed in other countries, usually in Holland, and then "smuggled" into England and sold without regards to the printing guilds. Incredibly subversive books like the Bible and Greek legends were common. Printing a copy of the Bible, particularly one in the English language, was punishable by death. Even having a copy was illegal and was a life spent in prison.

      The point of the Statue of Queen Anne was to try and stop this flood of books coming across the English Channel, as the guilds were most certainly not getting their cut. While the concept of "unauthorized duplication" of a printed work was perhaps a lesser issue, it really was an attempt to get a legal monopoly on the printing business where only the main guild members, particularly the London printers, would be getting the work. In other words, it was the publishers, not the artists, authors, or anybody connected with creating the content which was being protected but rather making sure only union members would be involved with the printing and non-union print shops (not members of the guild) would be shut down. All sorts of thuggery including assault, murder, theft, extortion, and other means were employed and condoned by the government to enforce these principles.

      If there was formal common law, it was to protect the "rights" of the printer, not the author.

    261. Re:Great book by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 1
      First off, please note that I didn't intend to defend any particular position in my comment. I was mostly correcting the GP's assertion about why such things came into existence.

      Nevertheless, let me try to respond to your primary question.

      What makes the authors' families special?

      Nothing makes authors' families special. The difference between your example of bricklayer, etc. is that in one case a person is paid for work done at a particular time. In the case of copyright law, the general idea seems to be that an author is granted a kind of deed to a sort of property for a limited term.

      Again, I'm not saying this is the best way of doing things, but it's what copyright law is based on. The "intellectual property" analogy assumes that property is created, and property does not cease to exist after someone's death. It gets transferred, and the new owner can decide whether to keep it, rent it out, etc.

      Now, at face value this may seem bizarre. But think about it -- an author might spend a year or two of his life hoping to create a book that will earn some money for his wife and kids. Given the state of copyright law, the family begins to hope and count on the possibility of this income, particularly once they are given a book deal by a publisher. Then, a day after the book comes out, the author is hit by a bus. This isn't just a matter of a husband unable to return to work to earn more money -- it's the prior investment of a year or two of his life. All the income with artistic creation often comes after the fact, so it makes sense that we might apply different principles from a situation where someone has to show up to work to earn money for that day.

      It's as if your bricklayer was told he would earn profits for himself and his family if he just worked for free building a building for a couple years, but he dropped dead the moment the building was done. If he was promised income, shouldn't it go to someone?

    262. Re:Great book by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 1

      How about I get paid... oh, I dunno... one half of one cent per minute of uptime for every computer that I keep running. How's that? And I think this should last for 98 years. WHY ARE YOU DEPRIVING MY FAMILY OF THIS INCOME THAT I EARNED? DON'T YOU CARE FOR MY FAMILY??!?!

      If you had a contract saying that you were doing work for free (or for very limited income) with the expectations that future profits would go to you for X number of years, yes, I would in fact expect a company to honor such a contract to you or to your estate in the event you die.

      Most people ask for payment up front for their labor, not hope for future profits by investing a year or two for free. If you did the latter for a company, I would expect such a company to honor that debt... whether to you or to your family in the event of your death.

    263. Re:Great book by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 1

      Why a writer's widow should have better welfare cover than the widow of a mason?

      Because the mason didn't work for free for months or even years building a building with the promise of being paid later. Copyright is effectively a kind of promise to the author that he will be able to be compensated for his time investment. A mason, on the other hand, is compensated every week or every month. If the mason had a deal that he'd only get a paycheck after he built an entire building, and he'd be then be paid a certain amount for X number of years, I'd expect the same to be paid to his estate if he died unexpectedly after completing the building.

    264. Re:Great book by tftp · · Score: 1

      there is, however, the right to defend yourself from bears and murderous neighbors.

      Most countries don't offer such a right to their citizens. If attacked, one is supposed to call the police and then wait patiently until they arrive and collect his (by then) cold body.

    265. Re:Great book by DMUTPeregrine · · Score: 1

      Preferably put it towards education, so as to help people learn to create new content.

      --
      Not a sentence!
    266. Re:Great book by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      I'm sure that people can manage to smuggle things through customs all the time, many of which are far more dangerous than a book.

      This sounds like a call for customs to be better at inspecting imports. I think there's still a pressing need for privacy (we've all heard of incidents where customs agents scan people's hard drives at ports of entry, fishing for whatever they can find).

      Honestly, I suspect that the importation rules are a little too strict. For example, there have been cases where goods were lawfully manufactured by the plaintiff, sold abroad at low prices, and imported by third parties seeking to gain from arbitrage -- goods like shampoo or wristwatches. It's claimed that these imports infringe because of copyrighted artwork on the label, or the logo, even though they were ultimately made under the authority of the plaintiff or the person the plaintiff got his rights from.

      I don't think that copyright holders should have to compete against unauthorized publishers working abroad, but we do need to watch out for abuses, and we do need to figure out how they can detect infringers without running roughshod over privacy.

      Tricky, but probably not a big enough problem to justify ditching important copyright reforms.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    267. Re:Great book by T+Murphy · · Score: 1

      It's nice in theory, but good god those annual renewals would be a pain to process. In practice I think it would just create even more problems.

    268. Re:Great book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Brilliant! We could even pretend its a right instead of a entitlement. But what would we call this copy right?

      Note: I like copyright, I just want the time limit and fair use to be reasonable. ~20 years is plenty of time, and getting around DRM for legal fair use should not be a crime.

    269. Re:Great book by Saint+Fnordius · · Score: 1

      The balance here is that if a copyright holder finds it more valuable to pay the Copyright Tax than let it expire into the public domain, then at least the money is going to the government. We need to pay for government services somehow, yet everyone is loath to pay taxes. Why not make a tax like this, where the owner really must decide if it is worth it to maintain ownership, to pay the public for the right to keep it from the public?

      Note that copyright does not extend to branding. In those rare cases like Disney where ancient works still have value, the brand Mickey Mouse would still belong to Disney even if the first works and the characters therein have entered the public domain.

    270. Re:Great book by Ed+Avis · · Score: 1

      Tell me again, how exactly copyright encourages creation of new works?

      It might, if the original work had passed into the public domain by now. The original copyright term (14 years plus another 14 if the author is still alive) would mean LoTR derivatives could be freely written without fear of litigation.

      --
      -- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
    271. Re:Great book by Phoghat · · Score: 1
      So you're Polish?

      Prosz panu, Jak si Pan/Pani miewa? Jak si Pan nazywa? Nazywam si .Tomasz Jan Sobieski III, Nastpca tronu polskiego (LOL) ,

      --
      Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
    272. Re:Great book by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      That's very inefficient.

      Every studio would need its own chain of theatres. That means every single studio has to be constantly pumping movies out to make it pay, and new ones can't get started because it requires a huge investment. Decent movies can be made quite cheaply, but movie theatres are expensive and must be paid for over years.

    273. Re:Great book by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 1

      Newspapers? They're all at risk of going under due to the accessibility of news on the internet. There's no way they have the money to pay an author a living wage for "first use" rights on a novel. And as a reader, I don't want a serialised novel -- I want a book that I buy once, carry anywhere and can read on the train.

      As for the value of first performance of a song or a dramatic work... well, how many people fit in a theatre or concert venue? You would have to be able to realise the full work cost on the first showing, after all.

      For the pub performer, you're talking 30 or 40 people. If you dedicate two months to writing material for your new album, and a reasonable wage is a theoretical 1000 a month, to get adequate recompense, that's a songwriter's take of 2000 for the first night. That's 50 per person,before accounting for the performers' cut or the costs for the venue. Would you pay that much for the privilege of being the first to hear something?

      For a new opera opening at La Scala, there's a possible 2,800 seats. Wagner spent 4 years on each part of the Ring Cycle. Assuming an annual wage of 15000, that's 60000 between 2800. That's 21 each for the composer's cut, which doesn't seem like much, but putting on an opera takes many, many man-years of rehearsal as well, so the cost is going to be much higher. And of course this assumes that the composer is famous enough to get a premiere in La Scala, and to sell out all tickets.

      But if these examples still aren't enough, let me boil it down to a simple principle: you think IP is too expensive already. If IP could only realise value on its first use, the cost of that first use is going to be many, many, many times higher than the price that you already think is too high.

      Copyright keeps prices down by spreading the cost over all users of IP.

      HAL.

      --
      Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
    274. Re:Great book by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 1

      So, what you're saying is that everyone should be paid a living wage for their time, regardless of the actual value? I think the name for that is "welfare".

      Erm... no. What I said is that everyone should be given the opportunity to earn a living wage for their time, if the quality of their work is good enough. Copyright lets them do that. I agree that copyright terms are currently overlong and the creative industries are scamming many content creators, but I still think the general concept of copyright acts for the common good.

      HAL.

      --
      Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
    275. Re:Great book by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 1

      In my life, I have bought many books. Most had been available for several years. The age of the book made little difference to its value to me - I own very few hardbacks. If a new book is significantly more expensive than a year-old book, I'm happy with the year-old book. Therefore in your world, I would never be paying the author a penny.

      HAL.

      --
      Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
    276. Re:Great book by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 1

      In that case, who's going to buy the DVD? Everyone will torrent it. Who's going to watch it on TV with those annoying advert breaks when they can just torrent it?

      Well, we live in a world where people can do those things now. Yet somehow, people keep making DVDs and showing things on TV, and people keep buying those DVDs and watching those shows.

      People are willing to pay for things even when they don't strictly have to do so, though I'd agree that it is possible that the amount of money made might decline, and so the budget for works might decline.

      You're ignoring the fact that many people refuse to torrent because they know it is illegal and equate illegality with a general moral "wrong". The minute you make unlimited copying legal, you tell these people that it's no longer wrong, and that's when the money goes away.

      HAL

      --
      Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
    277. Re:Great book by Eskarel · · Score: 1

      Taking a literary classic like Lord of the Rings and flipping the fundamental truths of the story to make a point, unless it's done really really badly, is at the very least an easy sell for parody. Parody doesn't have to be funny, and the simple fact of how uncomfortable this book would make certain LotR fans would probably make the case for parody on its own.

      Parody may not have been this author's intent, but a halfway decent lawyer would almost certainly be able to convince a judge that it was. Ordinarily that might not matter as most people can't afford a halfway decent lawyer, but the profile on this case were it eventuate would be high enough that a halfway decent lawyer would probably materialize.

    278. Re:Great book by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 1

      Firstly, lack of a registration system is ridiculously onerous to the public at large, which is a far larger and more important group than mere authors or rightsholders.

      We are all authors and rightsholders. See the Cooksource.com controversy for instance. Or any of the many stories about peoples personal photos being taken from the net and used for advertising, sometimes even in ways that were offensive to the rights-holder.

      Secondly, persons doing business internationally already have to deal with a myriad of forms. ... In practice, few authors will care about a lot of these countries, and so can ignore the burden that may come with obtaining rights; others will care, and to them it will be nothing more than the cost of doing business. Indeed, if it costs more to get rights than the rights are worth, they won't even bother, since copyright is, after all, a purely economic matter.

      Just because an independent author is not currently selling his book in Burkina Faso doesn't mean that someone else should be able to do it for free. If I'm publishing on Lulu.com or whatever, I'm small-fry. I can't afford to register my book everywhere in one go. Maybe I want to release worldwide eventually, but under your system I either have to be able to do that from day one, or I forego the ability to ever do it. Who does this benefit? Not the independent author -- it only benefits big business.

      And if an author doesn't care enough about how his work will be protected in every corner of the world to take at least some modest action, why should the natives of those corners care either?

      Are you saying I have to register my Facebook profile pic in every country in the world to avoid it being used by someone else for whatever they want?

      HAL.

      --
      Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
    279. Re:Great book by redelm · · Score: 1

      Loved it too. Should qualify for the parody (maybe satire!) copyright fair-use exemption.

    280. Re:Great book by Zenaku · · Score: 1

      Very well argued.

      For the record, I don't advocate any particular solution either, but I find the idea of copyright expiring at death to be an intriguing enough notion that I'd like to play Devil's advocate for it a while.

      Intellectual property is a legal construct. It differs from real property in that it will expire at some point. Therefore, the fact that real property does not expire at death is not a sufficient reason to believe that intellectual property should not.

      Neither is the fact that an author has invested time producing something that he expects to make money off of later relevant. It is just that, an investment, and there are no guarantees about the return. Nobody has promised him any profits.

      Let's assume copyright does expire at death. If an author works for some time on a book, and drops dead immediately after it is finished, the return on his investment of time will be zero. His intellectual property will disappear. His family has not lost anything that they in fact possessed, they have only lost the expected income that they might have made had the author lived longer.

      And so I say again, the answer to that is life insurance. (I'm not shilling for the insurance industry, I promise). They have suffered an unexpected loss of their "intellectual property," which was a known risk from the start, and the system we have in place for mitigating such risks is insurance.

      Expiring a copyright at death seems like it would be just as workable as expiring it at a fixed time. Though I expect we would always have to have the time limit as well -- Walt Disney may be dead, by the Walt Disney Corporation may never die.

      --
      If fate makes you a motorcycle, you become a motorcycle.
    281. Re:Great book by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "That's very inefficient.
      Every studio would need its own chain of theatres."

      Or not.

      There's nothing preventing studios to coaligate if they see that as a commercial advantage.

    282. Re:Great book by mike2R · · Score: 1

      I don't think that the author had much to do with it - he would sell the rights to the bookseller, who would then keep that right. - The rights to print Shakespear, for example, were still resident in only one bookseller when the Statute of Anne was passed (a century+ later). Perpetual in this circumstance would be that the common law (the accumulated precedent of judge-made law) recognised the right to a primitive form of copyright, but had no mechanism for this right to be ended.

      --
      This sig all sigs devours
    283. Re:Great book by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      It seems to me that you're taking the current situation, removing copyright from it, then recreating the current situation using different tools. I don't really see the point if everything works the same way it does now.

    284. Re:Great book by Dabido · · Score: 1

      You do realise the flaw in your argument? Both Shakespeare and Mozart lived in a time of copyright. Neither were amateurs, they were both paid to write. Admittedly the copyright was about 7 or 14 years (a lot less than Sonny Bono and Disney would prefer). The problem with todays copyright laws is not that copyright exists, but the length of time (like ... forever) before anything falls into public domain. For just over the last 100 years (since about 1868) it was pretty much authors life plus 50 years. There isn't anyone alive today that was born into a time when the copyright laws were less than that.

      Shakespeare was paid to write, he was not an amateur. Other than acting, writing plays and the fact he owned half the company he worked for, he also made some money publishing his sonnets etc (which were copyrighted). The works we have are a collection made years later by two of his actors who had to try to remember the plays from decades earlier from their own memories and poor notes etc. In some cases we have no idea if the words are even what Shakespeare wrote himself (some of it differing from one persons notes to another persons notes). The reason they started to collect Shakespeare works was due to a printing company paying them. Otherwise, Shakespeares works would have faded away and we'd never of heard of them. It was only because they were able to make a profit that the works were preserved. (The publishing company then had the copyright for fourteen years, so that no other publishing company could make copies of Shakespeares plays. Shakespeare had been dead for ten years). Copyright was about having a monopoly for a short time on a work so that the author/publishing companies etc could turn a profit for the efforts. It is also notable that he wasn't popular as a playwrite till centuries after his death.

      The majority of the books prior to copyright that we do have we are lucky to have, as they were preserved by Clerics collecting and writing them down.

      Prior to the printing press copying a book cost money because you had to pay someone who owned a copy of the book to let you make a copy. If the author didn't have a copy of their own works (highly possible as often only one copy was made and it was turned over to those who commission it), then there was no way you could get a copy, even if the author gave you permission, unless the owner of the physical work let you. Usually you'd have to pay for it. Then, there were such things happening as when Ptolemy paid 2 talents (1 talent was more than some kingdoms had at the time) to Athens for a chance to copy the complete works of Aescylus and then nicked the thing. Thus, Ptolemy had the only copy which was kept in Alexandria. It survived until the Muslims invaders of Egypt destroyed them. Aescylus also wasn't an amateur, he was paid as well to write.

      Copyright started in Britain in 1518, and by 1566 books published were given a 'printing privilege' and formally protected by the Star Chamber decree. This was two years after Shakespeare was born, many years before he started writing his plays. Copyright in Europe started in 1450, well before Mozart was born or even composing.

      Can you select an example of someone who was actually an amateur and published their works in a time outside of copyright who is actually considered a giant of some sorts in their field by the average person on the street today? (It's just a thought exercise, not a challenge. For instance, Chaucer was a giant in his day, and did receive some money for writing, but was hardly professional, but the average person in the street couldn't quote him and may not even have heard of him. Most Greek play writes got paid to write their plays, admittedly some of them were paid in prize money, but hardly amateur. The ones who were not good to win prize money ended up going into other professions and their works no longer exist).

      I think it is too easy today to think that because someone like Shakespeare is in the public domain now that they somehow lived in a time outside of copyright.

      --
      Sure enough, the cow costume was hanging up next to the superhero outfit and sailors uniform. (S,Spud)
    285. Re:Great book by alexo · · Score: 1

      without copyright, there'd be not enough profit in publishing books.

      In other words, the main (and possibly only) purpose of copyright is to protect the profits of publishers .

    286. Re:Great book by alexo · · Score: 1

      If those were the terms the mason and the group hiring agreed to, then yes. If not, then not. Is this really that hard to understand?

      "Agreed to" is the operative phrase. The terms may be freely negotiated and are not mandated by law (contrary to copyright). Is this really that hard to understand?

    287. Re:Great book by alexo · · Score: 1

      I would have to agree that the copyright and patent systems could be better. But abolishing them altogether could be disastrous.

      could be disastrous or it could be marvellous, we would never know until we try. I'd like all patents and copyrights on new works suspended between, say, 2015 and 2065. My guess is that once the dust settles we will not become culturally (or scientifically) poorer.

    288. Re:Great book by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      Just because an independent author is not currently selling his book in Burkina Faso doesn't mean that someone else should be able to do it for free.

      Well, I would say that that's up to the people of Burkina Faso to decide, but generally why shouldn't other people be able to step in?

      The public benefits when works are created and published. The public doesn't benefit when works are not created and published. If you're refusing to publish a work, why should you be given the right to prevent other people from stepping in and doing what you refuse to do? To give you a monopoly at public expense only to have you turn around and refuse to use it for the public benefit (and, if you like, for your own benefit, though that's not mandatory) seems to me to indicate that maybe you should not have been given the monopoly in the first place.

      If I'm publishing on Lulu.com or whatever, I'm small-fry. I can't afford to register my book everywhere in one go.

      That is an economic decision you will have to make. You should only register your work in places where you think you can exploit the copyright in order to make a profit after considering the costs of getting a copyright and publishing there. If you don't believe that you can successfully make a go of it in Pottsylvania, or wherever, then don't bother. But don't be upset if someone else takes a stab at it, which at least is better than letting the whole thing go to waste.

      This is already how things work for patents. Inventors have to decide, within certain time limits, which countries they want to apply for a patent in. Failing to apply for (and receive) a patent in a particular country means that the invention is in the public domain there. It makes good sense: the inventor can get a patent where he likes (subject to local laws as to what is patentable), but it's up to him to decide where, and then he needs to comply with the various local laws. If the inventor doesn't care to get one someplace, that country benefits far more from having the patent in the public domain than from giving a monopoly to an absentee inventor who will never bother to use it in a productive manner. The inventor doesn't lose anything, since he had given up on that country to start with. No one loses and more people win than otherwise would.

      Maybe I want to release worldwide eventually, but under your system I either have to be able to do that from day one, or I forego the ability to ever do it. Who does this benefit? Not the independent author -- it only benefits big business.

      Well, I'd personally hope for a modest time limit, especially as some works might be published simultaneously with their creation, and it's hard to file simultaneously too -- people can only do so much at one time! A year from first publication anywhere would be fine with me.

      In any case though, the goal of copyright is neither to benefit the independent author or the big business author. The goal is to benefit the public. If it happens to benefit authors of any kind, that's great, but that's merely a means to an end. Big businesses are, if anything, even more concerned with the economics of the situation. They're not going to try to get a copyright on some work everywhere in the world, unless they think they can make a profit by doing so everywhere in the world. This suggests that they would publish abroad.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    289. Re:Great book by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      You're ignoring the fact that many people refuse to torrent because they know it is illegal and equate illegality with a general moral "wrong". The minute you make unlimited copying legal, you tell these people that it's no longer wrong, and that's when the money goes away.

      Despite the infamous publicity campaigns of the music industry back in the day, I'd say that no one ever thought that home taping was morally wrong when it used to be illegal (or now when it is effectively legal, though not technically so). The music industry said that home taping would kill music. Not only did it not die as a result, but they wound up making record amounts of money.

      I'd also point out that laws should conform to social norms in the absence of a very pressing reason to go against them. With Prohibition, alcohol was made illegal, but few found it actually immoral, almost everyone drank, the disrespect for that one law caused massive disrespect for more important laws, and we wound up with rampant corruption, violence, and organized crime on a level that we still haven't escaped from. With desegregation, there was a lot of popular support for segregation, but it was important for the government to protect everyone's civil liberties, and the government ignored the will of many, perhaps most, of the people.

      Which do you think copyright infringement by natural persons acting noncommercially is more like? If it helps, you may wish to recall the height of the Napster era, when everyone and their dog was sharing music. I even have it on excellent authority that at least several US Senators were trading pirated music around.

      In any case, I'm not convinced that people would stop paying for works in such quantities so as to jeopardize the entire existence of the various industries. There might be a loss of some money, and budgets might have to go down, as I said, but I think plenty of commercial works would still be made.

      And like I said, I'm willing to try it and find out. If I turn out to be wrong, and it turns out that the public interest is better served by making non-commercial infringement by natural persons just as unlawful as any other sort of infringement, I'll gladly support reinstating the ban.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    290. Re:Great book by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      That's why they might want to care, not why I should. Or are you saying that what's good for GM is good for America?

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    291. Re:Great book by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      Modest fees are already charged, and as with the PTO, the registration system is moving online. The renewal form seems like it would be quite simple. At a minimum you only need:

      1. GUID number associated with the work / registration.

      2. Checkbox if copyright holder contact information has not changed. Lines to enter new contact information if it has changed or if there is a new copyright holder.

      3. Checkbox and lines if any other information is to be changed, e.g. abandoning part of the copyright but not other parts, though I can't think of why this would be likely to occur.

      You could make it more complex, asking for the title of the work, publication dates, etc. but I'm sure the Copyright Office can figure out what it needs and doesn't need, and how to best cope with the paperwork.

      Given that the US had renewals (admittedly on a less frequent schedule) from 1790 to 1992 (and there's still a bit of a renewal system left for older works), it doesn't seem to have been a big deal before. Especially since most authors never bothered to renew, not caring if they got as much protection as they possibly could. That's one of the core goals to frequent renewals: if an author only wants, say, 8 years of copyright, and not 14 or 28 or 56 or life+50 or life+70 or what have you, then his failure to bother to file for a 9th year is a good way of not granting superfluous copyright.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    292. Re:Great book by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      Everything should be free... eventually.

      No disagreement here. That's why long after somebody is dead, and all their immediate children and relatives are all dead, copyright should expire.

    293. Re:Great book by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      You can't honestly be comparing claiming the ownership of a human soul to be even remotely similar to the concept of copyright. Hyperbole much?

    294. Re:Great book by Anonamused+Cow-herd · · Score: 1

      I love the concept -- and have no qualms with who the fees go to. Why not put them directly toward something massive that can use unending funds, like, say... the deficit?

      Then, when congress critters do their budget calculations, they can take money seized from our corporate overlords into account. Simple, no?

      --
      -----[0_o]-----
      We are not amused.
    295. Re:Great book by roju · · Score: 1

      That's why they might want to care, not why I should.

      Touché. I guess the only reason it might make you care is that US exports of creative goods bring money into the country, presumably having benefits on taxes and whatnot.

    296. Re:Great book by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 1

      In any case though, the goal of copyright is neither to benefit the independent author or the big business author. The goal is to benefit the public. If it happens to benefit authors of any kind, that's great, but that's merely a means to an end.

      Finally, something I agree with. Yes, protection of creators' rights is a means to an end. Yes, that end is the public benefit.

      BUT....

      Without the means, we will never achieve our end. Fair treatment of IP and adequate reward for authors is our means. Registration is patently unfair to authors. Why? It introduces a workload and a cost to the creator than independents can't cover. Hollywood studios can handle it, though. This means that SuperHeroMan 43 with its budget of millions of dollars will be registered worldwide in a flash but Independent Zombie Flick with it's $1000 shoestring budget will only be registered in one or two countries.

      This raises the bar for entry into the creative industries, because the only people who can realise the full value of their IP are the people who are already rich -- the little guy can't afford to start becoming rich.

      "Free stuff" sounds good. In fact, it sounds a lot like "public interest". Sadly, they're not the same thing at all

      HAL.

      --
      Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
    297. Re:Great book by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      Nope, we disagree quite badly here. The "eventually" I am referring to is a much shorter one than you say.

      I think you see copyright as an inherent right of the creator. I see it as completely the reverse, a temporary privilege granted to entice creation. As such, the proper length is the one that maximizes production. Too short, and people will create less, because they won't have enough time to make money. Too long, and somebody who could be making something new (and possibly their descendants) gets to sit idle, so they also create less. Thus the right length is necessarily significantly shorter than a human lifetime to motivate the creation of multiple works in one's lifetime.

      In the spirit of not screwing people over, copyright shouldn't immediately when a family member dies, but I completely disagree that the duration of their lives should have anything to do with the length of copyright. Children and relatives also should have a reason to go create their own works if they want money.

      I see things like the Tolkien Estate as a perversion that shouldn't be able to exist.

    298. Re:Great book by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      Fair treatment of IP and adequate reward for authors is our means.

      I disagree. First, the copyright system should only pursue the public benefit. Whether we have a copyright law or not, and if so, what it consists of, precisely, should be considered only through this lens. If a system benefits the public the most, it doesn't matter whether or not it is fair to authors. I suppose it would be nice if the copyright law that were best for the public also happened to be fair to authors, but the two things are wholly unrelated.

      Likewise, while copyright is purely an economic incentive, copyright does not, and has never, provided an adequate reward for authors. Authors only get a monopoly on certain actions relating to their work. Whether or not they can exploit this monopoly in such a way as to get an adequate reward is their problem. Most works have no copyright-related economic value; their authors will get no adequate reward from copyright. The small number of works that do have a copyright-related value are usually not worth a great deal. The few works that are of substantial value are rare enough that it's akin to playing the lottery. The stereotype of the starving artist exists for a reason; art is not a good career choice if you want money. Fortunately, there are a number of other incentives at work which cause people to create art.

      Registration is patently unfair to authors.

      Funny. It worked so well in the US from 1790 to 1978, with renewal registrations required until 1992, and registrations still required if you want to enforce a copyright (or have worthwhile remedies).

      Why? It introduces a workload and a cost to the creator than independents can't cover.

      The workload is about on par with filing a change of address form. It's basically some brief information about the work, e.g. title, name of author, date of publication, what portion of the work is copyright claimed on, contact information, etc. Any adult faces far more challenging forms than this routinely. I suppose that you will next argue that artists should not have to file their tax returns -- a far more challenging task, I assure you -- because that also imposes an expense to them in terms of effort and cost.

      I say grow up.

      This means that SuperHeroMan 43 with its budget of millions of dollars will be registered worldwide in a flash but Independent Zombie Flick with it's $1000 shoestring budget will only be registered in one or two countries.

      Probably because the former movie is expected to be released worldwide, while the latter movie will probably only be released in one or two countries. If they're going to release it abroad, they're going to have to clear some administrative hurdles anyway; they're going to need to draw up contracts with foreign distributors; they're going to need to deal with customs as they import copies into the foreign country; in many countries they're going to need to submit the film to the state censorship board; if they're making money abroad, they may need to file their taxes in the foreign country. Making sure that they have a foreign copyright is just another item for the checklist. It shouldn't be difficult or expensive, but it should require some affirmative action to get.

      Otherwise, how are we supposed to distinguish an author who does want a copyright, from an author who doesn't want one, who doesn't care, and who isn't willing to even take affirmative steps to not get one? We can't give away copyrights willy-nilly, whether people want them or not. This is wasteful, and harmful to the public, who could be enjoying a public domain work, but for the automatically granted copyright. The people in the best position to know whether or not a copyright is wanted are the authors themselves. Let them apply for the copyright if they want one. Don't make it hard, but do require them to step up.

      This raises the bar for entry into the c

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    299. Re:Great book by kwerle · · Score: 1

      Fascinating - and here I thought that insanity regarding copyright was a fairly recent thing.

      Thanks much for your reply.

    300. Re:Great book by hkeacc · · Score: 0

      It's a great book, I need~

    301. Re:Great book by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "Because the mason didn't work for free for months or even years building a building with the promise of being paid later."

      So exactly the same way as the writer. Or did someone promised something to the writer?

      "A mason, on the other hand, is compensated every week or every month."

      Nope. The mason is compensated *only* when working upon an agreed wage. Maybe the writer should find a similar agreement.

    302. Re:Great book by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "It seems to me that you're taking the current situation, removing copyright from it, then recreating the current situation using different tools. I don't really see the point if everything works the same way it does now."

      Even if that was the case, it would be the same situation with one tool less. Occam's razor anyone?

  2. Sounds about right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In 1000s of years of history there has been pretty much no technological progress in Middle Earth. Several 1000s years of civilisation and they are still in the Dark Ages.

    1. Re:Sounds about right by varcher · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's the classical fantasy/SF duality.

      Quick-n-dirty how-to distinguish fantasy from science-fiction: It's not about elves vs spaceships. It's about conservatism vs progressivism.

      A fantasy book is about preserving/restoring/keeping the old order. Calamity befalls, and it's up to the heroes to repair the world. The tyrant has obtained absolute power, and your task is to topple it and restore the rightful ruler(s). The gods are angry because the people have strayed from the "path" and things go suddendly to hell.

      The sci-fi book is transformative. Change happens, and the world progresses. The old ways are discarded, the new ways begins (with their usual lot of gut-wrenching change) and life is transformed.

      (and then, you have modern hi-tech thrillers, in which big change happens, except it has no lasting consequences whatsoever. But that's a different topic)

      So, intrinsically, the Ring War in which Frodo and his merry band wins is fantasy. The Ring War in which Mordor wins would have been sci-fi.

    2. Re:Sounds about right by Okonomiyaki · · Score: 2

      And the Star War in which a desert planet dirt farmer saves the galaxy is also fantasy.

    3. Re:Sounds about right by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 2

      Quick-n-dirty how-to distinguish fantasy from science-fiction: It's not about elves vs spaceships. It's about conservatism vs progressivism.

      A fantasy book is about preserving/restoring/keeping the old order.

      I'd think that's a bit of generalisation about fantasy and sci fi both. The literature is a lot more complex than that, I mean look at one of the founding pillars of modern fantasy, Michael Moorcock's Elric series, a hero sets forth specifically to change and modernise the old order. Set against that on the sci-fi side, Star Wars fits perfectly into your description of fantasy. Its much too simple to take broad general view of a vastly wide and varied body of works.

    4. Re:Sounds about right by sourcerror · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Set against that on the sci-fi side, Star Wars fits perfectly into your description of fantasy.

      A lot of people think (me included) that Star Wars is fantasy.

    5. Re:Sounds about right by jollyreaper · · Score: 1

      So, intrinsically, the Ring War in which Frodo and his merry band wins is fantasy. The Ring War in which Mordor wins would have been sci-fi.

      I think that's a little too simplistic. LOTR has been tremendously influential and inspired a slew of imitators but there's plenty of fantasy that stabs out in other directions.

      The question with this adaptation is whether or not we're supposed to accept the account written in LOTR as in any way truthful. It feels like an exercise in rehabilitating Stalin. I like the idea of presenting a typical fantasy dark lord in a more positive light but I remain skeptical that this could be accomplished with Suaron. that having been said, time to download the text and see how it's done.

      --
      Kwisatz Haderach
      Sell the spice to CHOAM
      This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    6. Re:Sounds about right by Nimey · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Wrong. The difference between SF and Fantasy is that SF *could* happen - its setting high tech. Fantasy *can't* happen - its setting requires magic of some sort.

      Why do some people have to inject their politics into everything?

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    7. Re:Sounds about right by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 2

      Thats only one example though, neither sci fi nor fantasy can generally be considered "progressive" or "conservative", since there exists a full spectrum of ideologies and themes in both genres. Sci fi and fantasy are just the medium through which the themes are expressed, there's nothing intrinsically conservative about fantasy.

    8. Re:Sounds about right by stewbacca · · Score: 0

      Yep, kissing siblings..a staple of old order conservatism.

    9. Re:Sounds about right by amnesia_tc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. So fantasy is actually the most sci-fi.

    10. Re:Sounds about right by one+cup+of+coffee · · Score: 1

      No, Sorry you're wrong. Star Wars is actually a Documentary!

    11. Re:Sounds about right by Luyseyal · · Score: 1

      It was fantasy until Lucas dropped in those irritating midichloridians. FTN. Star Wars was better as a hippie pipe dream blend of classic film, new age religion, and space drama. Making it more realistic just detracted from it.

      -l

      --
      Help cure AIDS, cancer, and more. Donate your unused computer time to worldcommunitygrid.org. Join Team Slashdot!
    12. Re:Sounds about right by DEmmons · · Score: 1

      i know someone who believes this. literally. he's a nice enough guy but i think it bothered him that i didn't just take his word for it that star wars was actually filmed on other planets as real battles took place. for a glimpse into such a mind, this is his web site: http://www.starcityhistory.com/

    13. Re:Sounds about right by NoSig · · Score: 1

      Wrong. The real question is, why do people have to ask stupid questions?

    14. Re:Sounds about right by mbkennel · · Score: 1

      Actually it is. Star Wars is two parts opera plus one part conservative liberation fantasy.

      Love with subverted or mistaken identities (e.g. Titania falling in love with the donkey, Cosi fan Tutte, etc etc) is typical.

      Then there's the War part, you know where the Good Salt Of the Earth Conservative Force-Fearing People rise up against the Modern Mechanized Industrial Empire whose technological terrors, of course, killed all the priests who maintained the Old "Republic" centered on royalty, mysticism, and essentialist blood-line inheritance.

      The Imperial Academy of Sciences long ago debunked midichlorians as complete Jedi hokum, a big money making scam for their greedy abbey-based network of chiropractic "clinics". Their meditation practices are nothing but expensive quack "cures" compared to scientific evidence-based medicine from legitimate, licensed neurostim physiciandroids.

      Alderaan == Versailles
      House of Organa == Bourbons

      Alderaan had it coming.

    15. Re:Sounds about right by houghi · · Score: 1

      Uh, wrong as well. In Fantasy things happen, In Science fiction, it is told why in a technical way.
      "The sword was indestructible" vs. "By changing the molecular structure, the sword became indestructible"

      And then there is also a lot of cross-over where it is both or neither (even if it is in space/future/with lots of techno stuff)

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    16. Re:Sounds about right by selven · · Score: 1

      You're essentially arguing elves vs spaceships. I, on the other hand, find the conservatism/progressivism distinction much more meaningful. It is true that in fantasy, magic is used as military force, in science fiction lasers are, but that isn't a very useful distinction - it's all the same story with different eye candy. We "have to inject our politics into everything" because politics is interesting.

    17. Re:Sounds about right by Nimey · · Score: 2

      If you've been on the Internet longer than five minutes, politics is fucking tiresome, mainly because of the zealots who insist on seeing everything through the lens of their politics.

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    18. Re:Sounds about right by hey! · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure this captures Tolkien's position on technology and magic.

      Tolkien, being a philologist, knew that what we called science was once quite literally a branch of magic -- called by some early writers "natural magic". This is the ability to work wonders by superior understanding of nature, as opposed as through the agency of demonic assistants. When Galadriel talks to Sam and Frodo about the operation of the Mirror of Galadriel, she quite clearly challenges the validity of the term "magic" as Sam would us it. The implication is that the Mirror is an example of what the ancients would call "natural magic" and what we'd call "technology".

      That's not to say Tolkien didn't have an anti-technology streak in him; but it's not a simplistic one. In fact it is as far from simplistic as one can possibly get. The miller at Hobbiton was an unpleasant fellow, but Tolkien does not paint the mill as an evil thing. It's only when it becomes an engine of mindless environmental destruction that it is regarded as evil. It's not what Tolkien *does* but what he *doesn't do* that matters here: he does not make an exception for technology when it comes to the corrupting influence of power.

      The mill at Hobbiton recapitulates the industrialization of the English countryside that horrified Tolkien, but I think there is a subtle distinction between being horrified by technology and being horrified by the effects of using technology without regard to its consequences. I don't think Tolkien objected to mills per se, but rather the use of glittering generalities like "progress" to dismiss the problems they create. Galadriel's use of the Mirror exemplifies virtuous use of technology: using it with care and consideration of its possible consequences.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    19. Re:Sounds about right by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      A key difference in literature is that the kissing siblings didn't know they were related. They can't say that in the South.

    20. Re:Sounds about right by silverglade00 · · Score: 1

      So you're saying that hokey religions and ancient weapons ARE a match for a good blaster at your side...

    21. Re:Sounds about right by russotto · · Score: 1

      No, Sorry you're wrong. Star Wars is actually a Documentary!

      Nope, an Al Queda propaganda piece. A bunch of terrorists led by a man from a desert world set out to take down an empire... and succeed.

    22. Re:Sounds about right by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      Because, to them, there is no difference between science and magic...

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    23. Re:Sounds about right by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 1

      Quick-n-dirty how-to distinguish fantasy from science-fiction: It's not about elves vs spaceships. It's about conservatism vs progressivism.

      No. The axes are orthogonal. One can have progressive fantasy (Le Guin's later Earthsea novels) or conservative science fiction (most of Heinlein). The best explanation is Moorcocks's famous essay Starship Stormtroopers -- read it, if you haven't:

      There is Lovecraft, the misogynic racist; there is Heinlein, the authoritarian militarist; there is Ayn Rand, the rabid opponent of trade unionism and the left, who, like many a reactionary before her, sees the problems of the world as a failure by capitalists to assume the responsibilities of 'good leadership'; there is Tolkein and that group of middle-class Christian fantasists who constantly sing the praises of bourgeois virtues and whose villains are thinly disguised working class agitators -- fear of the Mob permeates their rural romances. To all these and more the working class is a mindless beast which must be controlled or it will savage the world (i.e. bourgeois security) -- the answer is always leadership, 'decency', paternalism (Heinlein in particularly strong on this), Christian values...

      What can this stuff have in common with radicals of any persuasion? The simple answer is, perhaps, Romance. The dividing line between rightist Romance (Nazi insignia and myth etc.) and leftist Romance (insurgent cavalry etc.) is not always easy to determine. A stirring image is a stirring image and can be ,employed to raise all sorts of atavistic or infantile emotions in us. Escapist or 'genre' fiction appeals to these emotions. It does us no harm to escape from time to time but it can be dangerous to confuse simplified fiction with reality and that, of course, is what propaganda does.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    24. Re:Sounds about right by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      . When Galadriel talks to Sam and Frodo about the operation of the Mirror of Galadriel, she quite clearly challenges the validity of the term "magic" as Sam would us it.

      Do you mean this

      http://ballz.ababa.net/dreamflower/quoteslotr.html

      'Many things I can command the Mirror to reveal,' she answered, 'and to some I can show what they desire to see. But the Mirror will also show things unbidden, and those are often stranger and more profitable than things which we wish to behold. What you will see, if you leave the Mirror free to work, I cannot tell. For it shows things that were, and things that are, things that yet may be. But which it is that he sees, even the wisest cannot always tell. Do you wish to look?'
      Frodo did not answer.
      'And you? ' she said, turning to Sam. 'For this is what your folk would call magic. I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem also to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy. But this, if you will, is the magic of Galadriel. Did you not say that you wished to see Elf-magic?'
      -"The Mirror of Galadriel"

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
  3. totally phuked viewed from a survival scenario by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it's already happening. many of our 'illusions' are fading fast. see you on the other side of it? after all of the distressed babies have been accounted/cared for.

  4. Banewreaker by ShakaUVM · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If y'all are interested in this kind of fiction, Jacqueline Carey did a really good duology on it in her Banewreaker series.

    She's mostly known for steamy fantasy/romance novels (the Kushiel series), but she does a very good take on a LOTR-analogue world in which the Sauron equivalent is shown as the good guys. Or not good guys, precisely, but as more or less a guy wanting to be left alone, with the Gandalf-equivalent instigating the "good" races to destroy him in his Mordorish fortress. You really end up hating the good guys by the end of the series. =)

    I highly recommend it.

    http://www.amazon.com/Banewreaker-Sundering-Book-Jacqueline-Carey/dp/0765305216

    1. Re:Banewreaker by Gaygirlie · · Score: 1

      [quote]If y'all are interested in this kind of fiction, Jacqueline Carey did a really good duology on it in her Banewreaker series.

      She's mostly known for steamy fantasy/romance novels (the Kushiel series), but she does a very good take on a LOTR-analogue world in which the Sauron equivalent is shown as the good guys. Or not good guys, precisely, but as more or less a guy wanting to be left alone, with the Gandalf-equivalent instigating the "good" races to destroy him in his Mordorish fortress. You really end up hating the good guys by the end of the series. =)[/quote]

      Sounds great, thanks for the tip! :) All too often everything is depicted really black-and-white, with the "good" guys being stainless, righteous, wonderful and adorable beings and the "bad" guys as loathsome bastards with no morals or regard for anyone but themselves. That is actually part of the reason I liked the Watchmen movie too: the "good" guys themselves are quite loathsome and easy to dislike and thus sets quite a different tone for the whole movie. I actually really hope for more movies and books like that.

    2. Re:Banewreaker by ShakaUVM · · Score: 5, Insightful

      >>The WW2 allies were hardly virtuous, what with fire-bombing of innocent civilians

      It's not that simple.

      Hamburg, for example, was partly in retaliation for Coventry earlier in the war. But Hitler only took the gloves off and started targeting civilians after the RAF started dropping bombs on German civilians. Why did the RAF target civilians, when the (evil) Nazis were refraining? Because the Luftwaffe had radar navigation, but the RAF thought they had the skill to astronavigate accurately enough to put bombs onto military targets. They didn't.

      Then you could get into the whole Battle of the Beams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Beams), and whether it was ethical to redirect German bombers onto English farmhouses...

      >>throwing minority Americans into death camps for the crime of having german/japanese grandparents

      I don't think you know what the words "death camps" actually mean.

    3. Re:Banewreaker by ShakaUVM · · Score: 1

      Sounds great, thanks for the tip! :) All too often everything is depicted really black-and-white, with the "good" guys being stainless, righteous, wonderful and adorable beings and the "bad" guys as loathsome bastards with no morals or regard for anyone but themselves. That is actually part of the reason I liked the Watchmen movie too: the "good" guys themselves are quite loathsome and easy to dislike and thus sets quite a different tone for the whole movie. I actually really hope for more movies and books like that.

      Yeah. The Comedian was especially repulsive, yet oddly compelling in his own way.

      In the Banewreaker series, the "bad guys" are sympathetic, but they're hardly perfect, or ethical paragons. Actually, the only people on Team Evil that are relatively blameless are the orc- or troll-analogues, who are sort of a tribal people that have a tradition of art, etc., but have been driven out by the "good races" around the world, with only the Sauron-analogue sympathizing with them and giving them a place to live.

      Anyhow, send me a message some time and tell me what you think of it. Even among my friends that read a lot of fantasy novels, not many people have heard of it, but I think it is exceptionally well done.

    4. Re:Banewreaker by tophermeyer · · Score: 5, Informative

      You're about to be modded troll for this bit:

      throwing minority Americans into death camps for the crime of having german/japanese grandparents.

      It's untrue as it is offensive. My grandfather, an off the boat German immigrant from the early 30's, joined the US Marines and fought during the war. His family was not rounded up into camps.

      And death camps? Seriously? While the Japanese internment camps were indeed an atrocious violation of basic civil rights, they were limited to the West coast, and had living conditions a fair sight better than some other contemporary 'death' camps.

      I get your point, soldiers on both sides did some pretty horrible things. But implying that we were not better than governments engaged in active genocide is inflammatory. And as an American, incredibly offensive.

    5. Re:Banewreaker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >>throwing minority Americans into death camps for the crime of having german/japanese grandparents<<

      I don't think you know what the words "death camps" actually mean.


      indeed, he clearly does not...

    6. Re:Banewreaker by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1, Funny

      Ooo...good troll. Totally off-topic and guaranteed to get a number of furious responses. *golf clap*

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    7. Re:Banewreaker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I second this.
      The books of the Sundering: Banewreaker and Godslayer are really, really good.
      Sort of LotR in reverse, but without putting an overly strong emphasis on that.
      The books stand on their own, you don't have to be a LotR fan to appreciate them.
      If you are it just adds another, very neat, dimension to the books.

    8. Re:Banewreaker by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      That is actually part of the reason I liked the Watchmen movie too: the "good" guys themselves are quite loathsome and easy to dislike and thus sets quite a different tone for the whole movie. I actually really hope for more movies and books like that.

      Well, now I know why Watchmen did not do very well. Most people want to go to movies for escapism. They want to like the protagonists and dislike the antagonists. I agree with that. When I read or watch fiction, I want to like the protagonist. He/she does not have to be "stainless, righteous, wonderful and adorable", but they do need to be likable and overall a better person than the antagonist.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    9. Re:Banewreaker by Nimey · · Score: 1, Insightful

      So, commodore64_love, why the new account?

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    10. Re:Banewreaker by david.given · · Score: 3, Informative

      Also, don't forget to check out Mary Gentle's Grunts, which is told from the point of view of the orcs... and who are definitely the bad guys. Oh yes.

      Hilarious and in incredibly bad taste.

    11. Re:Banewreaker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But Hitler only took the gloves off and started targeting civilians after the RAF started dropping bombs on German civilians.

      I beg to disagree.

    12. Re:Banewreaker by Eskarel · · Score: 1

      The camps were a shameful chapter in US history, however you are wrong in two points. To start with, while I'm sure some people died in those camps, to the best of my knowledge the number was not significant and those deaths were neither from conscious design nor neglect. The American government has committed genocide, but the camps weren't when they did it(if the Turks killing the Armenians on forced marches counts as genocide, and I think it does, so does the trail of tears).

      In addition, you're also wrong about who was imprisoned, they didn't imprison people of German descent only Japanese. Part of this was undoubtedly racism, but as my history teacher once said, if you look at the population statistics of imprisoning the Germans would have left everyone else having to move to one state while the other 49 got fenced off.

    13. Re:Banewreaker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When I read the article, my first thought was "Hey, reminds me of Banewreaker", and I was very pleasantly surprised to see someone already mention it.

      It's relative obscurity is really undeserved. By the way, "Santa Olivia" by Carrey is also a great book outside her Kushiel series.

    14. Re:Banewreaker by asdf7890 · · Score: 1

      The bombing civilians thing is a little different to the blank/white that people tend to think or the all-is-fair-in-love-and-war greyness that the more pensive know to be the case. I'm told it was essentially an accident followed by round after round of tit-for-tat attacks. A small German bomber group were off target and essentially lost & running out of time, and needed to drop their bombs somewhere in order to have enough fuel to attempt to return to base. They picked what they thought looked like an industrial target but it turned out to be a largely domestic area. Of course we didn't know the "accidental" nature of the targeting, and wouldn't have believed it if told at the time, so set out to make plans to bomb a few civi targets on the other side (to attack their civilian moral in the same way we assumed their military was trying to do to ours). So the first civilian bombing was by them, but the first deliberate civilian bombing was by us. To summarise: war is hell, especially all-out war, and no one taking part can claim much by way of moral ground.

    15. Re:Banewreaker by moortak · · Score: 1

      About 11,000 people of German descent were placed in internment camps. We also provided the internment facilities for several Latin American countries.

      --
      Xavier Rabourdin for president 2012
    16. Re:Banewreaker by plover · · Score: 1

      If you saw the Watchmen, you'd have seen that while they painted the protagonists with a dark brush, the criminals were far, far worse. So by that comparison, it was easy to see them as "more good than bad". But most were evil to some degree, all were amoral, none were likable, and by comparison to the daily life of the residents of the movie, they were all deserving of the contempt and scorn they had earned among the public. And to me they were all so distasteful that I found I didn't care about any of them, either. Nuke 'em, don't nuke 'em, just end the stupid movie already.

      --
      John
    17. Re:Banewreaker by Fulminata · · Score: 1

      Only if you count prisoners of war. No American citizens of German descent were interred during the war simply because they were of German descent. American citizens of Japanese descent were interred solely for being of Japanese descent.

    18. Re:Banewreaker by moortak · · Score: 1

      No, not only counting POWs. It happened on a smaller scale and is less talked about, but there were a large number of US citizens of German descent in internment camps.

      --
      Xavier Rabourdin for president 2012
    19. Re:Banewreaker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I never read books written by women, they're almost always shit. Sorry Harry Potter fans.

    20. Re:Banewreaker by JockTroll · · Score: 1

      "No American citizens of German descent were interred during the war"... Do you mean American citizens of German descent who died could only be cremated?

      --
      Geeks are so full of shit that "beating the crap out of them" takes a whole new meaning.
    21. Re:Banewreaker by Fulminata · · Score: 1

      I was mistaken, there were indeed Citizens of German descent interred in WWII. It was simply not the mass internment that was done to citizens of Japanese descent.

      I learn something new every day...

    22. Re:Banewreaker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That book started out interesting, but lost me when it trivialized rape.

    23. Re:Banewreaker by Slur · · Score: 1

      It was just a matter of time before someone invoked Godwin.

      --
      -- thinkyhead software and media
    24. Re:Banewreaker by gknoy · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I've always felt that Shelley's Frankenstein was a really derivative work. Didn't contribute anything to culture or have any lasting effect on the science ficiton genre.

      </sarcasm>

    25. Re:Banewreaker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was about to recommend this book, it was fantastic. Although, I had to put it down many times because it was so depressing, all my favorite characters died.

    26. Re:Banewreaker by sckienle · · Score: 1

      There is also Villians by Necessity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villains_by_Necessity), which takes a view on what really happens when good wins and why that is bad.

      --
      I don't see things in black and white; I see the gray. Heck, I actually see in color, which makes things more difficult
    27. Re:Banewreaker by commodore6502 · · Score: 0

      >>>the "good" guys being stainless, righteous, wonderful and adorable beings and the "bad" guys as loathsome bastards with no morals or regard for anyone but themselves

      This happens in history too. (All too often everything is depicted really black-and-white.) The WW2 allies were hardly virtuous, even though they are shown to be like angels on earth.

      - a lot of the Nazi propaganda was simply copied from the Allies' example during WW1. The Allies set the example; Hitler copied.
      - fire-bombing of innocent civilians (why was it necessary to set FIRE to cities? Just use regular bombs.)
      - blowing-up of dams that drowned villagers
      - imprisonment of those who were anti-war (in violation of free speech rights)
      - and throwing minority Americans into camps for the crime of having german/japanese grandparents. Plus taking their property and giving it to whites - outright theft that was never returned.

      And:
      I see I was modded 'troll' for speaking the truth to power, since people don't want to hear the truth. People want to believe the lie that the Americans and British were flawless and we should call them the "greatest generation" even though they suppressed Jews, blacks, and women..... and ignored Constitutional Law to boot.

      --
      Information wants to be expensive AND wants to be free. So you have Value vs. Cheap distribution fighting each other.
    28. Re:Banewreaker by ShakaUVM · · Score: 1

      Weren't we talking WW2? Hitler ordered restraint against the Brits until he was enraged by them blowing up a school full of orphans or something like that by accident.

    29. Re:Banewreaker by ShakaUVM · · Score: 1

      I know I shouldn't feed the troll, but given that you just reposted the same agreed you said before, but without the "US HAD DEATH CAMPS" screed, kind of puts paid to the notion you're speaking truth to power.

      More like, you're someone who nerved paid attention in history class, but heard someone ranting about "death camps" at the last 9/11 truther meeting you went to.

      You were rightly modded troll, because you didn't know what you were talking about.

    30. Re:Banewreaker by ShakaUVM · · Score: 1

      I liked Santa Olivia, but I'd have liked it more if I was a boxing fan.

    31. Re:Banewreaker by hawk · · Score: 1

      She's mostly known for steamy fantasy/romance novels (the Kushiel series),

      *that* explains why I only got a couple of dozen pages, if that, into that book before reaching for the space opera at the top of the pile . . . :)

    32. Re:Banewreaker by PCM2 · · Score: 1

      Yeah. The Comedian was especially repulsive, yet oddly compelling in his own way.

      Actually, I thought one of the biggest failings of the Watchmen movie was that it managed to take the two most repulsive, yet compelling characters of the book -- the Comedian and Rorschach -- and made them simply repulsive. Watching the movie, I didn't get how anyone could possibly root for the Comedian -- but I suspect just about everyone who reads the book does, in spite of themselves. Rorschach was the same way. The way his character was unveiled over time in the book was fascinating, but in the movie I just found him dull (and that Christian Bale Batman voice was really annoying, and not, I suspect, what Alan Moore was going for).

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    33. Re:Banewreaker by PCM2 · · Score: 1

      If you saw the Watchmen, you'd have seen that while they painted the protagonists with a dark brush, the criminals were far, far worse.

      Wait ... who were the criminals in Watchmen? Moloch, the guy dying of cancer? The knot-tops, a loosely-organized gang of street thugs? What makes Watchmen interesting is that there is this assumption that for there to be superheroes there must be also supervillains for them to fight ...and yet criminals hardly ever figure into it. The only real "villains" are the same characters as the "heroes" -- reflecting how difficult it is to be a true "superhero" in the morally ambiguous Real World. The backdrop of fictionalized U.S. foreign policy, with an ongoing Nixon presidency and all the ambiguities of "winning" the Vietnam War, reflected this theme masterfully.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    34. Re:Banewreaker by ShakaUVM · · Score: 1

      >>It was just a matter of time before someone invoked Godwin.

      My smartphone tried to autocorrect Hitler to "Butler". Really, Android? You can't say Hitler? How the hell are we supposed to communicate on the internet if we can't accuse someone of being a maximum?

    35. Re:Banewreaker by plover · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't call it "masterful." It was clumsy and heavy-handed. What I saw was over-the-top evil from both the "heroes" and the "villains" to the point where it put me off the movie completely. For it to be masterful, it would have to connect at least a tiny bit to humanity, kind of like the spot of humanity Silk Spectre was looking for from Dr. Manhattan. And I realize that you're saying "look how hard it is to be good", but there was simply no touchstone at all, even when the characters were actively groping for it in the dark. The government was evil (the presence of Nixon just made that all the more in-your-face), the romance between the Silk Spectre and Nite Owl was tainted, the evil plot wasn't foiled, there wasn't even a tiny pimple of redemption. You might claim that at least Rorschach stayed true, and thus never needed redeeming, yet he was murdered by the "heroes" as a result.

      The movie was missing that key element, some tiny piece to hang your hope on, and it wasn't there. There wasn't even a fake piece of hope in the movie to tease us. No, the angry mob could have won the day, shredded the heroes, and I'd have been all the happier for it.

      --
      John
    36. Re:Banewreaker by Weedhopper · · Score: 1

      Second this recommendation.

      Much more entertainingly written than other "let's turn good and evil on its head then" fantasy fiction. Fantasy fiction, ugh. Boy am I glad that's a phase I grew out of.

    37. Re:Banewreaker by jschrod · · Score: 1
      And why is this factual and correct statement modded flamebait?

      Sorry, that I spent my mod points earlier this morning.

      --

      Joachim

      People don't write Manifestos any more -- what's going on in this world? [Frank Zappa]

    38. Re:Banewreaker by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      More to the point in the Battle of Britain Hitler stopped targeting military airfields and bombed London. It was a catastrophically bad decision - the RAF were on the verge of collapse at that point and the targeting switch gave them a chance to rebuild and eventually win.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
  5. Interesting usenet:rec.arts.sf.written analysis by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Available here:

    http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.written/msg/697476f4e92d2483?dmode=source&output=gplain

    >Seriously though, I have read Yeskov's novel some ten years ago, when it was
    >officially published in Poland. It caused a great turmoil among die-hard
    >Tolkien's fans, who considered it "blasphemous" - not because of the
    >copyright issue, but because the good and the evil were so thoroughly
    >reverted there. Those who remember Gaiman's "Snow, Glass, Apples" should
    >understand what I mean. Personally, I liked the book, but this reversal of
    >well-established stereotypes is its main merit. Without any references to
    >Middle-Earth it would have been just a second-rate spy story/political
    >thriller, like the many clones of Frederick Forsyth.

    For my part, I'd rather read a first-rate spy story / political thriller, irregardless of the trappings or lack thereof.

    1. Re:Interesting usenet:rec.arts.sf.written analysis by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      For my part, I'd rather read a first-rate spy story / political thriller

      That's the fun part of Yeskov's work - it is a spy story, a very traditionalist one at that. It doesn't just "revert" good/evil from the books (which isn't technically true, it really disposes with the whole notion of B&W good/evil separation - Aragorn seems "evil" but not really evil, for example). It also "reverts" the high-fantasy style into something much more closer to the ground, so to speak.

    2. Re:Interesting usenet:rec.arts.sf.written analysis by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      Come on. You can reduce most books to second-rate stories if you take away their core idea.

      Yeskov's novel is actually fun, although the Umbar part is a bit too long IMHO.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    3. Re:Interesting usenet:rec.arts.sf.written analysis by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For my part, I'd rather read a first-rate spy story / political thriller, irregardless of the trappings or lack thereof.

      For my part, I'd rather read a comment comprised of real words...
      So what does "irregardless" really mean? Is it "a lack of a lack of regard"? Is it "without a lack of regard"? Or does the double negative cancel rendering a meaning of "regard"?

  6. It might be a good book... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I was a little unsure whether the author of the article had read the books due to the "Sauron is a giant eye-lighthouse". She goes on to talk about how the book is more a book in its own right than fan fiction but if the author bases their knowledge on the subject by the Peter Jackson films then the validity of her opinion is in question.

  7. Life imitates art by NoZart · · Score: 4, Funny

    If that is not the best practical "in soviet russia..." joke, i don't know what is.

    1. Re:Life imitates art by Dr.+Spork · · Score: 3, Funny

      In Soviet Mordor, the ring disappears you.

    2. Re:Life imitates art by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bravo! A+, You win!, would do business again!

    3. Re:Life imitates art by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, wearing the ring DOES cause you to disappear. It should read: In Soviet Mordor, you disappear the ring!

    4. Re:Life imitates art by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't that what Frodo did when he got there?

  8. From-the by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Eye-of-the-beholder"-dept?

    =)

  9. I've always thought... by hipp5 · · Score: 1

    ... that there should be more of these stories taken from the point-of-view of different characters. Wicked was incredibly clever, as was Ender's Shadow. I'd also like to see it done with movies. Perhaps an action film from the 'villain's' POV, or maybe it could follow a civilian who gets screwed over by every car chase and explosion.

    1. Re:I've always thought... by Paradigm_Complex · · Score: 1

      Grendel by John Gardner is a brilliant re-telling of Beowulf from Grendel's point of view. Very deep. Nihilism, Solipsism. I highly recommend it if you're looking for a "from the villain's POV" with some philosophical, uhh, "isms."

      --
      "A witty saying proves nothing." - Voltaire
    2. Re:I've always thought... by EMCEngineer · · Score: 1

      I would like to see more literature like this, but it is so often terribly done. Wicked was really bad. It's like he wrote a novel, then in the last 50 pages had to ignore the entire book up to that point just to fit it with the previous work. The Broadway show was much more enjoyable.

    3. Re:I've always thought... by stjobe · · Score: 1

      Wicked was, indeed, wickedly clever. I also very much enjoyed Soon I Will Be Invincible by Austin Grossman. While not retelling a well-known story from the PoV of the antagonist, it is a role-reversal where the classical antagonist is the books protagonist (the book is written from the perspective of a super-villain).

      --
      "Total destruction the only solution" - Bob Marley
    4. Re:I've always thought... by chad_r · · Score: 1

      The musical Into the Woods is in a similar vein. Cinderella is shallow and bored as a princess, the widow of the giant grieves for her husband who was killed during Jack's theft, and Red Riding Hood has morbidly acquired a wolfskin scarf.

    5. Re:I've always thought... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I would *love* to see harry potter re-done from Draco's PoV.

      Starts off as run of the mill bully, gets in over his head, realises Daddy is an idiot and Mummy is scared. Regrets decision, lives life of pain and envy.

    6. Re:I've always thought... by sorak · · Score: 1

      ... that there should be more of these stories taken from the point-of-view of different characters. Wicked was incredibly clever, as was Ender's Shadow. I'd also like to see it done with movies.

      As long as they don't get in the habit of just doing "Wicked" style remakes; it could get old quickly. I personally loved the White Wolf campaign set (although I haven't read it since they ended the world and redid everything). What was great about it was that for every setting, you were presented with a one-sided view of the world, in which your group is the heroes, and everybody else is a bunch of monsters, savages, or people who have been corrupted by power. Then you read the other books, and find out that you only saw a superficial view of that group, and that they had a good reason for their stance.

      Perhaps an action film from the 'villain's' POV, or maybe it could follow a civilian who gets screwed over by every car chase and explosion.

      Those are two very good ideas, although the later sounds like it would be a Will Farrel movie.

    7. Re:I've always thought... by MoriT · · Score: 1

      I like Tom Holt's Expecting Someone Taller and Sena Jeter Naslund's Ahoy, Ms.!. I've long thought The Time Machine was ripe for retelling too; I kept waiting for the turn where we discover that the Morlocks were not cannibalistic trying to eat him, they were just talking to him and he was too racist to entertain the notion that they might have an underground technological society. The Eloi are clearly just genetically engineered sheep anyway ;-)

    8. Re:I've always thought... by plover · · Score: 1

      What was great about it was that for every setting, you were presented with a one-sided view of the world, in which your group is the heroes, and everybody else is a bunch of monsters, savages, or people who have been corrupted by power. Then you read the other books, and find out that you only saw a superficial view of that group, and that they had a good reason for their stance.

      I like the way that the video game America's Army does it. When you join a game, you are always on the side of the Americans, wearing American uniforms and wielding American weapons. The other side is always seen as the OPFOR, dressed as hostiles and firing Russian or Chinese made gear. As an American squad, you have to assist and escort a local VIP to escape from a hospital about to be overrun by an assault force attempting to kill the VIP. Or as an American squad you have to prevent a known terrorist from fleeing a hospital where he is being assisted in his escape by militants.

      The best part is that both sides are presented as equally valid positions with sound reasons for holding each, with no hint of irony that it's "good guys" on either side, depending on your point of view.

      --
      John
    9. Re:I've always thought... by Draek · · Score: 1

      It's called a Perspective Flip, and that page has most of the examples in this thread as well as a few others. Warning, though: TVTropes can ruin your life.

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
    10. Re:I've always thought... by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Yeah, there was a movie like that recently, called "Beowulf and Grendel". Not only was it sympathetic to Grendel, it dispensed with all the fantasy and portrayed Grendel and his family as leftovers of the Neanderthals or something like that: really giant, hairy people who were nearly extinct. Grendel became a murderer because the Danes murdered his father, so he wanted revenge.

  10. Please by Stenchwarrior · · Score: 1

    Will someone please do this for Twilight from the view of Victoria? My *ahem* daughter needs more reading material....

    --
    Loading...
    1. Re:Please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (off-topic) I saw "Loading..." at the bottom corner of my eye and in my mind I was thinking that it was loading more comments. Well played good sir, well played...

    2. Re:Please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, it's my testament to the new and, in my view, slower design.

    3. Re:Please by Stenchwarrior · · Score: 1

      Woops, logged me out.

      --
      Loading...
    4. Re:Please by snookiex · · Score: 1

      That would be something like: "Most prominent gay community members joined in a R&D crusade to make human's skin shinny and healthy while group of troglodytes can't stand their beauty and begin to hunt them down". OK, Victoria is not involved but I couldn't resist.

      --
      Open Source Network Inventory for the masses! Kuwaiba
    5. Re:Please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Will someone please do this for Twilight from the view of Victoria? My *ahem* daughter needs more reading material....

      The only victims in twilight are its readers.

    6. Re:Please by Stenchwarrior · · Score: 1

      Not sure that would work. Vampires only shine in the sun and we all know the Troglodytes don't leave the sewers.

      I like your enthusiasm, though.

      --
      Loading...
    7. Re:Please by ifrag · · Score: 1

      There is a short story along these lines "The Short Second Life of Bree Tanner", although it is from the view of one of her minions. Still from the "other side" in general though. Meyer also has a draft posted called "Midnight Sun" which was a fair chunk of the first book from Edwards viewpoint.

      The Short Second Life of Bree Tanner: An Eclipse Novella

      Midnight Sun

      --
      Fear is the mind killer.
    8. Re:Please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not true. I never read any of the books and only watched about 20 minutes of New Moon, and that was more than enough to leave me feeling victimized.

  11. Do you like this kind of fiction? by SharpFang · · Score: 0

    [i]The Iron Dream is a metafictional 1972 alternate history novel by Norman Spinrad.

    The book has a nested narrative that tells a story within a story. On the surface, the novel presents an unexceptional pulp, post-apocalypse science fiction action tale entitled Lord of the Swastika. However, this is a pro-fascist narrative written by an alternate-history Adolf Hitler, who in this timeline emigrated from Germany to America in 1919 after the Great War, and used his modest artistic skills to become first a pulp-science fiction illustrator and later a successful science fiction writer, telling lurid, purple-prosed adventure stories under a thin SF-veneer.[/i]
    [Wikipedia]

    Motorcycles, leather clothes, genetically pure heroes against the mutant scum. Rise to power and noble leadership! ...yep, the story inside the story is utter crap, the kind of utter crap Hitler could have written. And then the "critique" foreword and afterword really put this in perspective...

    Don't get it wrong. This is not a pro-Nazi book. This is a work of satire, the high-quality kind of satire that is hard to distinguish from the real thing, unless you really dig under the surface.

    --
    45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
  12. 80% of the length? Volume or book? by 91degrees · · Score: 1

    The Lord of The Rings is 6 books, often published as 3 volumes. The Fellowship of the Ring is the name of both Book 2 and Volume 1.

  13. Sidequels by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's called a sidequel, there's fan sites for Star Wars that deal with these a lot. Here's one that uses the toys to tell stories about auxiliary characters with the backdrop of the actual films:

    http://www.photonovelalliance.com

    Stories about like imperial officers, jedi during the clone wars, conscripted storm troopers, etc.

  14. Sounds like a great idea by Chucky_M · · Score: 1

    I had wondered why that scheming little hobbit was allowed to run around with stolen property and why nobody locked them all up and threw away the key. About time the truth came out and we start treating hobbits and wizards with the scorn they deserve promoting of course the sheer kindness of the Ork.

  15. Oblig. Scooby Doo references by benwiggy · · Score: 1
    "Cripes. Sauron is really Old Man Withers!"

    "And I would have got away with it, if it wasn't for you pesky meddling kids. Oh, wait, you're hobbits, not kids."

    1. Re:Oblig. Scooby Doo references by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      It's "hobbitses", not "hobbits".

  16. This is art imitating life! by Are+You+Kidding · · Score: 0

    If you want this kind of fiction on a daily basis, just watch Fox "News"

    1. Re:This is art imitating life! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please shut the fuck up about your political ideology for 5 goddamn minutes while the grown-ups are talking. No one is going to think that you're smart or sophisticated for criticising Fox News - parroting popular ideas dose not make you an intellectual.

  17. Meme collision by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    In Soviet Russia, Mordor does not simply walk into you.

  18. The Black Book of Arda by alendit · · Score: 1

    A rewrite of the Silmarillion (LotR background story) from Melkor's perspective http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Arda.

    Bonus: it preserves the spirit of the original a little bit better than the Last Ring-bearer, IMHO.

    No idea, if there is an actual English translation, though.

    1. Re:The Black Book of Arda by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      The Black Book of Arda preserves the spirit in a sense that it's also high fantasy. The problem is that the author is much worse at it than Tolkien (duh!), and overall it reads as too melodramatic. And then you can't help but do comparisons with the original works.

      It's also a more literal reversal, in a sense that there are still the good guys and the bad guys - they're just swapped, but the scale is still absolute. In Black Book, Eru is unquestionably evil, and so are those who follow him blindly. It's a step above Tolkien in a sense that it allows for redemption of evil characters (unlike "innate evil" of the original's Morgoth, orcs etc). But evil is still evil. The problem with that point of view is that it's tricky to reconcile with the reversal - the result is almost Manichean philosophy.

      The bright side of Yeskov's work is that it's deliberately written in a style that is completely different from the original. It's still a fantasy setting, but it's much less epic and much more down to earth - it's not about heroes by descent (dozens of generations of kings ultimately with Elvish blood and all that), but about common folk, some of which are forced into situations where they end up doing things that are necessary but hard - sometimes heroic, sometimes very much the opposite.

    2. Re:The Black Book of Arda by arivanov · · Score: 1

      Welcome to Russia where everyone is a professional devil's advocate.

      --
      Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
      http://www.sigsegv.cx/
    3. Re:The Black Book of Arda by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, history itself taught us.

    4. Re:The Black Book of Arda by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wouldn't call "less epic and much more down to earth" better for a fantasy.

      The problem with that point of view is that it's tricky to reconcile with the reversal

      Not really. It is quite believable (although I woudn't accept some things done as they were if I was in place of a main character, but hey people are different). Well, not really harder than original work anyway. Everything depends on what angle you took to look at history. Nothing bad about it.

    5. Re:The Black Book of Arda by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't call "less epic and much more down to earth" better for a fantasy.

      That's a matter of subjective taste. If you like high fantasy specifically (which chances are good you do if you like LotR or Silmarillion), then the other kind may feel wrong. Some people feel the other way around, considering high fantasy to be too full of pathos. Personally, I think both are enjoyable so long as they are kept distinct - there's nothing worse than an author who tries to write "high style" but ends up with just a bunch of Capitalized Words of the Ancient Gods of Supreme Power and such (on the Tolkien fanfic scene, the most prominent example of such is Perumov). Vasilyeva isn't half bad at it in comparison, just too melodramatic at times.

    6. Re:The Black Book of Arda by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      melodramatic

      Then... I've started to like melodramatic things. Am I growing older or younger I wonder.

      As for Perumov's I can't say much because while I read it I don't remember a single thing. Which may be some indication in intself I guess.

  19. Glen Cook is another by Shivetya · · Score: 1

    where good and evil can sometimes swap places in the minds of the reader if not the populace in the story. Many of his books were recently reprinted in large paper back format making the stories accessible to many. His The Black Company series is a great story where the mercenaries start working for the bad guys but eventually end up for working for the good guys and even team up again with the bad guys. A nice back and forth. The one good point throughout is that being the good guys doesn't mean your not just as rotten as the bad guys, they can even be worse at times as justification comes from not being the other side.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Company

    http://www.amazon.com/Chronicles-Black-Company-Glen-Cook/dp/0765319233/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1298297648&sr=1-2

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
    1. Re:Glen Cook is another by Weedhopper · · Score: 1

      If you take Shivetya's advice, stop after the third book. Man, I love me some Glen Cook's Black Company, but some of those middle books were a slog. Picked up near the end, but it read as if Cook had lost interest in many of his own characters.

    2. Re:Glen Cook is another by Paul1969 · · Score: 1

      Definitely check out the Black Company novels. Cook is a fine writer, with a flair for creating sympathetic nasty SOBs.

  20. irregardless is slang by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The correct usage is regardless. I'm not doing it to correct you, just to reach the millions of kids who might be harmed by reading your post.

    1. Re:irregardless is slang by tophermeyer · · Score: 0

      But language is a very flexible and adaptive thing. The meaning of words is no more than a shared understanding of what an abstract utterance represents. Try making your point in any bar in Boston, and you'll get a bunch of (drunk) people telling you that if everyone knows that the word means, then that's what that word means.

      You're right that it is slang. But the author had already established an informal tone to his missive by using incomplete sentences and "/" for hyphenation.

      Perhaps his usage was satirical. After quoting a passage that could be considered verbose and pretentious, he qualifies his preference for a run of the mill "first-rate spy story / political thriller" with a tongue-in-cheek attempt at verbosity.

  21. Moral relativism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I haven't read the book, which is probably excellent. But I get annoyed that people do think everything is a matter of perspective. The Lord of the Rings was about Hitler and he was a bad guy. Sure in the US we had our internment camps and that was wrong. Sure we dropped the atomic bomb and that was wrong. But at the same time Hitler had the holocaust and he had to be stopped.

    It's like on CNN when they're just listening to lies and nodding. No. Just because someone believes in a cause (genocide) doesn't make it OK.

    1. Re:Moral relativism by sourcerror · · Score: 1

      Tolkien said it's not about Hitler, nor about Stalin.

      "However, in 1961, Tolkien sharply criticized a Swedish commentator who suggested that The Lord of the Rings was an anti-communist parable and identified the Dark Lord with Stalin. Tolkien retorted,
      "I utterly repudiate any such 'reading', which angers me. The situation was conceived long before the Russian revolution. Such allegory is entirely foreign to my thought."[92]"

      Wikipedia

    2. Re:Moral relativism by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      Are you sure it was about Hitler? I always read it was about the industrial revolution in general, not just one bad guy in Europe.

    3. Re:Moral relativism by LihTox · · Score: 1

      To take the Hitler example, there are people who believe that Hitler was misunderstood and actually was a hero, Holocaust deniers and all that. On the other hand, you might have a fantasy writer construct an alternate history in which Hitler's actions are ultimately good ones (because he's fighting a secret alien invasion or something), but the writer doesn't believe in it herself. Such a story would be dangerous to publish because she would be lumped in with the Holocaust deniers and demonized. Still, if her intentions were clear and understood, then that would be a fair story to write, and could be very interesting to read if done cleverly.

      Anyway, things are a little murkier in this case, because it is a reinterpretation of an already published story. When dealing with history one must accept facts as a given; when dealing with a story, however, one must accept the author's stated intentions as given. Clearly Tolkien saw Sauron as evil, and so if someone says "No, Sauron in the stories was really a good guy!" then they are wrong, and anger from the fanbase might be warranted. However, if we look at this story as an "alternate history", basically an entirely different story which riffs on the original, then that's just clever.

    4. Re:Moral relativism by LihTox · · Score: 1

      Tolkien hated allegory because he hated putting such restrictions on his readers. If you want to see elements of Hitler or Stalin in Sauron, you're welcome to do so: Tolkien was not against applicability. Tolkien saw connections between his work and the real world all the time. But when the author beats you over the head with the fact that one particular character is supposed to be Hitler, or Churchill, or Obama, or whatever, then that prevents you from seeing the character as a separate individual, and weakens the story by breaking the suspension of disbelief.

  22. Another Download Link by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It would seem, at least from my perspective, that the download link, from sendspace, given in the original blog does not work correctly.
    So I searched around and found another copy on mediafire. http://www.mediafire.com/?82xn3qkue3iu12a

  23. What?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But the movie showed that when Sauron was defeated, everyone of his side got devoured. (Not the book, I know) Besides, where was the philosophy or progress in Mordor? They relied on magic just as much as the "good" guys. You had the grunt warriors, diseased trolls as captains and then the evil wizard helping Sauron.
    The story should have been told from the view of Tom Bombadill. (sp) Now that would be interesting.

    1. Re:What?? by Nidi62 · · Score: 1

      The story should have been told from the view of Tom Bombadill. (sp) Now that would be interesting.

      A year long 60s era hippie LSD trip in the forest?

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    2. Re:What?? by lgw · · Score: 1

      Tim, Tim, Benzedrine! Hash! Boo! Valvoline!
      Clean! Clean! Clean for Gene!
      First, second, neutral, park,
      Hie thee hence, you leafy narc!

      Yeah, been done.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
  24. Meh by jav1231 · · Score: 1

    It's not much different that current attempts to re-write history. But I digress. I find a Russian re-write interesting. As if to say, "You've all misunderstood the former Soviet Republic!?" Could be something subliminal.

    1. Re:Meh by GuruBuckaroo · · Score: 1

      Yes, this MUST be a Russian allegory, because everyone knows the nature-loving West was all about destroying the high-tech Russian bad guys.

      Why must everything be an allegory? Why does everyone insist on trying to see a deeper meaning, and doing whatever possible to make sure that deeper meaning is what they want it to be? Can't one just read the story for the sake of enjoyment?

      --
      Poor means hoping the toothache goes away.
    2. Re:Meh by MooseTick · · Score: 1

      I"m with you. I understand some authors write stories with built in meaning for the reader to interpret. I also believe lots of authors just write books, and due to the volume of text, a book that is 200-500 pages may have lots of unintended interpretable meaning. I always hated english teachers that had to assign meaning to every last minute aspect of a book assuming it represented some deeper meaning.

    3. Re:Meh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Try this:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman:_Red_Son

    4. Re:Meh by jav1231 · · Score: 1

      I didn't say it was, just that it could be. It could be that Russian elitists tend to view the world in an almost opposite view of the Western world. Or it could just be an alternate story.

      Everything doesn't have to be an allegory but it could.

    5. Re:Meh by hawk · · Score: 1

      It's not much different that current attempts to re-write history. But I digress. I find a Russian re-write interesting.

      Might I, then, direct you to Pravda's back issues. Surely available online, unless western conspiracy has hidden . . . :)

      hawk

    6. Re:Meh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because, well whatever you call it, there are varying degrees of originality and unoriginality involved. Wicked at least supplied more of the story...as others have suggested though, there is a real lack of originality in just taking the Orcs and writing a story from the viewpoint that they're "not such bad guys, they're just misunderstood"...to me its just deconstructionist moral relativism... Tolkien meant Mordor and Orcs and such things to be evil and this is just an attempt to capitalize on the story by writing the opposite. There seems to be a real lack of originality in these sequels...and it finds a parallel in hollywood, which can take crummy sit-coms and turn them into feature films, or remake movies that were classics to begin with and didn't need to be remade in the first place, but hey "lets milk this" since we've no ideas of our own....

  25. Livejournal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is the free pdf download actually hosted by livejournal? If not, why do all the links point there, and could someone please post a direct link to it without the pesky social networking site in the way?

  26. Re:Hooray for political statements by icebraining · · Score: 2

    Sometimes a book makes a much more effective argument. Orwell comes to mind.

  27. Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood and the Oz Wicked Witch by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 5, Interesting

    When I was a young child decades ago, Fred Rogers had the woman who played the Wicked Witch from the Wizard of Oz on his program. She explained how they did the scene where she melted. But she also tried to get kids to think about what things looked like from the Wicked Witch's perspective. Her sister was killed. The one keepsake was stolen. Her home was invaded. Finally, she is attacked just for defending herself and trying to get back her sister's property. And so on. It really shocked me in a good way, to think that things looked different from her point of view.

    Here is a FOSS project (Rakontu) my wife developed (I helped a small bit) to help people see situations from multiple perspectives.
        http://www.rakontu.org/

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  28. Re:Hooray for political statements by Captain+Centropyge · · Score: 2

    I have no idea what you're trying to say here... it's not a reply to anyone. And as such, makes no sense whatsoever. What does this have to do with LotR or this translation of a Russian book?

    --
    Bite my shiny metal ass!
  29. Russian fantasy is different! by Cyberax · · Score: 2

    Russian fantasy is actually quite different. The motif of 'restoring the balance' is present in a lot of works, but quite a lot of fantasy books focus on _transformations_ of society or about factions vying to transform society. Lukjanenko's 'Night Watch' (which is available in English) is a typical example.

    I particularly like Loginov's "The Many-handed God of Dalayn", though I'm not sure it's translated.

    This might be a reflection of recent turbulent history in Russia.

  30. And it pretty much is fantasy by Moraelin · · Score: 1

    Actually, SW is pretty much fantasy any way you want to look at it. It's got some SF props, but otherwise it pretty much tells a story of a noble knight, or rather son thereof, fighting the usurper of the throne and returning the kingdom (ahem, sorry, "republic") to the God-given (err, force-given) order. It's pretty much a 12'th century chivalric story, given some SF props.

    And it proves that old hookey religions and ancient weapons are more than a match for a good blaster, the only one who puts a missile down the Death-Star's tailpipe does so by innate skill and faith instead of a targeting computer, hi-tech walker tanks are defeated by ewoks with sticks and stones, and the evil Emperor isn't killed by modern weapons but by the old knight Anakin coming to his senses, etc. Pretty much wherever you look, battles aren't won by technology, but by the l33t knights, and in fact technology is often the weak link that _loses_ a battle. It is very much anti-progress, even if set in a technologically advanced but otherwise very much stagnant world.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    1. Re:And it pretty much is fantasy by Slur · · Score: 1

      Oh yeah, and don't forget the young Anakin - winning pod races and destroying Trade Federation battle cruisers by pure luck!

      --
      -- thinkyhead software and media
    2. Re:And it pretty much is fantasy by Moraelin · · Score: 1

      Yep. That was actually one of the incidents I had in mind when I said that in that universe technology doesn't win wars, technology is the weak link that loses wars. A high-tech army of droids has a central computer as a weak link, as is disabled by a kid shooting in the right point.

      --
      A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
  31. Parent - Not A Troll by 16Chapel · · Score: 1

    This is a valid answer to a dumb question, why is it (and not the GP) marked as a troll?

    1. Re:Parent - Not A Troll by bunratty · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Because people who like to download free music and movies make themselves feel comfortable by demonizing the industry they are ripping off to make themselves feel better. It's called cognitive dissonance. Accepting my explanation as valid would lead to uncomfortable feelings, so you'll see many posters make lame arguments about my very simple and valid explanation. You can see it all the time in arguments against evolution and anthropogenic global warming and other science that people don't want to believe.

      --
      What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
    2. Re:Parent - Not A Troll by thijsh · · Score: 1

      Or it's people like me that are truly fed up with big media screwing them but still enjoy their movies and series. I download and watch a lot, and if it was entertaining I put it on my list of DVDs to buy... I just wait until I encounter the movie for sale in a store or a local online store other than Amazon offers it for sale and then buy the movie (most of them are still in plastic wrapping because even if I own the DVD I still watch the proper version on my PC without the commercials). I'm pretty damn sture I buy a *lot* more DVDs than most people but I would still be labeled a hypocritical pirate with cognitive dissonance by the likes of you... So you just keep accepting *your* truth that big media is getting ripped off by evil pirates like me whose arguments are all self serving and just want to screw them out of their hard earned cash, and I'll continue to believe my own truth because I care about doing what I believe is right and feel like I properly reward artists for good art (note the subtle difference from cognitive dissonance). Your truth is yours and my truth is mine, I'm not doing it for you or anyone else (although I'm glad when other people see it the same way and take a stand for their principles too).

    3. Re:Parent - Not A Troll by Draek · · Score: 1

      No, it's because we actually pay attention and know your hypothesis doesn't hold in the real world.

      I'd post you links to scientific studies and large-scale experiments done by book publishers, music labels and individual artists, but really, you can just Google that on your own.

      Being an armchair scientist is bad enough already, don't make it worse by insulting anyone who doesn't believe in your unsupported hypothesis, it's pathetic.

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
    4. Re:Parent - Not A Troll by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      Because people who like to download free music and movies make themselves feel comfortable by demonizing the industry they are ripping off to make themselves feel better. It's called cognitive dissonance. Accepting my explanation as valid would lead to uncomfortable feelings, so you'll see many posters make lame arguments about my very simple and valid explanation.

      So, you are saying that demonising someone who holds a contrary opinion so as to make yourself feel better about ignoring any valid points they have is a kind of intellectual hypocrisy? That's very insightful. Where else have I seen someone do that? I can't quite put my finger on it.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    5. Re:Parent - Not A Troll by kurzweilfreak · · Score: 1

      Or it's people like me that are truly fed up with big media screwing them but still enjoy their movies and series.

      Please explain this section here.

      --

      kurzweil_freak

      5th Kyu Genbukan Ninpo/KJJR student

      Be the darkness that allows the light to shine.

    6. Re:Parent - Not A Troll by thijsh · · Score: 1

      I'm willing to pay for good entertainment but on my terms. If I spend 100 euro this month on movies and series I think that's fair, but they will probably not be satisfied until I pay 100 times as much for all the other stuff I downloaded. I already pay double for TV and DVDs (with the same content), I pay tax on blank media, I pay for cinema (although I believe that is a truly separate thing I'm willing to pay for), and they also want people to pay for each new format so playing a DVD on your PSP/MP4/mobile would mean paying again (good thing that fair use is still upheld, but it illustrates how far they are trying to go). They made it illegal (via DMCA) to modify any hardware or software you own that can potentially be used to copy media (which I believe infringes on my right to do whatever they fuck I want with what I own). Furthermore it's sickening that downloading few movies can cause a lawsuit against you with a verdict that will essentially bankrupt you while those same movies can be streamed for 3 euro, the damage done to peoples lives is in absolutely no relation to their losses. And last but not least they force their commercials and other crap on you when you just want to watch what you paid for (see this chart).

  32. What... for Republicans? by __aavqan3009 · · Score: 1

    And guess what? Bambi`s mother was shot.

  33. I tried to read it by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I tried to read this a while back. I was really excited because I always was more interested in the lives of the Orcs than reading about the hicks of the Shire. My favorite scene in LotR is the two orcs talking to each other and expressing a desire to stuff this Mordor stuff and get lost in the world somewhere distant, where they can waylay passing travelers. It's the closest thing the Orcs get to being treated as characters. I was really disappointed with The Last Ringbearer. It really didn't make any sense, maybe because it was translated? I skipped ahead several times before just giving up. I had really wanted to like this book but it just didn't work.

    Of course, the whole thing ignores the fact that Sauron was evil, and he committed many evil acts in his thousands of years of existence prior to the events of LotR. Sauron was a total sociopath control freak. If he were alive today he'd be in charge of a corporation poisoning the public for profit. The entire point of his forging of The One Ring was slavery. Sauron crossed the moral event horizon and went full-on evil when he helped Morgoth destroy the land of Almaren, and that was in the First Age. Honestly, this review tells us a lot more about the reviewer that it does anything. Sample quote: "The novelist Michael Moorcock has attacked Middle-earth as a childishly rose-tinted vision of the Merrie Olde England that never was, as well as willfully blind to the hardships and injustice of preindustrial and feudal societies." WTF? It's a fantasy novel, people. It's something you read when you're not reading real books. Oh. I see. The reviewer has an axe to grind. "So I was horrified to discover that the Chronicles of Narnia, the joy of my childhood and the cornerstone of my imaginative life, were really just the doctrines of the Church in disguise." Yeah, surprise surprise, lady. No wonder she sees racial demonization, it's what she's looking for. Yet another writer who can't write anything original and instead can only parody others. That's the greatest failing of The Last Ringbearer. If the author had something to say, great! Say it. But jeez it's pathetic when the only thing you can do is attach another author's name to your work while criticizing the shit out of it. Am I the only one who is utterly sick to death of sequels, rewrites, spinoffs, and reimaginings? I suppose so if that's what everyone is buying. Can't argue with the market.

    --
    Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    1. Re:I tried to read it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      can't argue with the market

      but we don't have to eat the shit sandwich and say it's "mmm,mmm,good".

      excuse the brevity, this new & improved /. just erased ANOTHER post. Talk about a shit-sandwich.

    2. Re:I tried to read it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Newsflash, Hitler saw himself as the good guy.

    3. Re:I tried to read it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course, the whole thing ignores the fact that Sauron was evil, and he committed many evil acts in his thousands of years of existence prior to the events of LotR.

      According to who? You're basing that on the descriptions given in the original canon (LoTR, Silmarillion, etc.). I think the point of this work is to question whether those writings were really impartial and accurate. If they were written based on the stories passed-down by the Elves and Men who defeated Sauron, then perhaps they are wildly exaggerated or even downright lies.

      This is just like in the real world. When we look at historical documents, we have to consider who wrote them, what their perspective was, and what their agenda was. Many religious texts claim to contain authoritative historical accounts. But you can tell from their wildly exaggerated descriptions of their enemies behaviors that what you're reading is not history--it's propaganda.

      Perhaps Sauron had good reasons for doing all the things he did. Reasons which are not recorded in most accounts. And perhaps the majority of things attributed to him are untrue.

      Of course the Tolkien version is still the "official truth" for this particular imaginary world. But I like works like this because they challenge our assumptions and get us to think about cherished notions in new ways.

    4. Re:I tried to read it by CannonballHead · · Score: 1

      I have not read it. Based on the summary, it doesn't sound like LotR from the "other side" ... it sounds more like LotR from the perspective of the Mordor Propoganda Department.

      One easy example: basically, Mordor's forces were made up of all "evil" character type things; corrupted men (greed) known as the Nazgul, living corrupted men (also greed, they were mercenaries), orcs (corrupted)...

      And they were fighting against *the rest* of the world, pretty much.

      Furthermore, this completely fails to reconcile with the "historical" accounts of Morgoth and his servant Sauron. Unless I am to understand that somehow Morgoth was right all along and everyone else was crazy?

      It'd be interesting to have a book from the Mordor perspective, but I don't think forcing a mixup of what is good or bad helps anything.

    5. Re:I tried to read it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or is everyone buying this crap, because that is all there is. There is a vacuum of creativity in fiction right now, but the thirst for fiction is as strong as ever.

    6. Re:I tried to read it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds more like you're trying to keep a dead unicorn of a memory alive. Of course, said unicorn doesn't actually exist and it's all in your messed up mind. Of course, that sort of attitude is EXACTLY why we get sequels, rewrites and all the things you say are wrong with the market.

    7. Re:I tried to read it by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 2

      Morgoth was the original corrupter who desired control of others instead of letting people be cool and do their own thing. The whole world united and threw him literally out of the world. Sauron actively helped him. Innocent animals incapable of making moral choices fled at the approach of Sauron's servants due to the great aura of evil they projected. Saying we have to reinterpret his acts because good and evil don't exist is the worst kind of postmodernist reduction to absurdity. Not surprised your first reaction was to make a comparison to religion, it "fits the narrative".

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    8. Re:I tried to read it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your second paragraph completely misses the point of the story. History is written by the victors. In the real world, no one is truly evil. Not even Hitler. These people perform acts opposing others moral views and personal gain, but turn the tables and the story changes. The victors likes to rewrite/retell in order to make themselves look better. Back to Hitler, but many people are told he was atheist or satanic or whatever. He was not. He was very religious and even looked for the Pope's backing of his ethnic cleansing. It is easy to paint him as evil, but keep in mind the US and other countries commonly imprison political terrorists etc without trial and punish them to death. Sure, the scale may be different, but people are people and there is no clear good vs. evil.

    9. Re:I tried to read it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you're being a bit unfair here. Yes, Hollywood is rife with meaningless reimaginings (let's do Alice in Wonderland - WITH GUNS!), but I don't necessarily think this is an unmitigated attack on fantasy novels in general. Fantasy is rife with genre conventions (though it may be unfair to attack the source of them written at a time when it wasn't competing with everything else out there), but the dichotomy of good and evil in our society and the strict interpretation of the difference between the two, I think, is a valid topic for discussion and the fantasy novel is a valid starting point for one's argument. We've seen some of these conventions perverted for the sake of perversion (the anti-hero, the heart-of-gold hero), but we've not seen characters act like real people often do, in shades of grey with various and sundry reasons for each of the choices they make, not merely a philosophy that easily answers a spectrum of questions.

      Frankly, I'm tired of heroes. Apparently we're damned if we're even the slightest bit selfish in our lives. And as much as I like LOTR for its idealist escapism (and Narnia for the same reason, being cloaked in Catholicism aside), I will readily admit that it presents an ideal as a work of fiction. I think also that fiction can be escapist, as well as a reflection of reality in the time it was written, reflecting the values and conventions of the era. Apparently, so does the author of this book.

    10. Re:I tried to read it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps you are committing the same folly as the reviewer. You forget that in reality one man's evil acts are viewed as another man's noble deeds depending upon from which side you are on.
      This is exactly how genocidal regimes, crusades, religious wars work.

      So you really do not know whether Sauron really committed evil because you have gotten only biased views laced with judgement from either side.

      As an analogical example, consider that -- we venerate our soldiers, but in reality the objective value of their deed is no different than a murderer. Our veneration is never based on their actual deed but the cause behind the deed. To us they are heroes. But to the opposing party being killed, our same soldiers are epitome of evil.

      This is why I celebrate reporting of facts. I think we should humbly realize that no matter how repulsive -- facts should be recorded just as facts without putting in any sort of judgment -- positive or negative.

      Once the facts are tied down, leave the judgment to future generations.

    11. Re:I tried to read it by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 0

      The One Ring was forged to control the wills of others. Slavery is pretty much the definition of evil right there. Not surprised the first example you thought of to support your point was "our soldiers are nothing but murderers" as there are certain people out there who spend lots of time thinking nothing but that. For some reason they cannot think outside their mental straitjackets, and assume that a fantasy novel has anything to do with reality. Elves are the children of Eru who is literally God and who literally created them. Sauron made Orcs by torturing elves and mutilating their DNA with magic. Good = living growing things = freedom for life to grow however it wants. Evil = cannot create = must control other life. But yeah, making the mental jump from fantasy morality to our soldiers are murderers: gotcha.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    12. Re:I tried to read it by houghi · · Score: 1

      Of course, the whole thing ignores the fact that Sauron was evil, and he committed many evil acts in his thousands of years of existence prior to the events of LotR. Sauron was a total sociopath control freak.

      That is the whole point. That image was created by 'the winners'. When I read LotR for the third iof fourth time, I tried to imagined the following. The 'winners' where for segregation. e.g. separate countries for hobbits and all the others.
      The 'losers' where for integration.

      "One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them" I interpreted to be united even in dark times.

      Because they were so against this integration, the choice to destroy the only possibility to be united was destroyed.

      Interesting read if you read it with that mindset. Change of mindset is always a good thing when reading or taking in information in general.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    13. Re:I tried to read it by dasunt · · Score: 1

      WTF? It's a fantasy novel, people. It's something you read when you're not reading real books.

      Perhaps it is the moral dichotomy of Tolkien and related fantasy works that creates a separation from "real books".

      SF had this problem in the beginning, during the "golden age of science fiction", and a lot of current SF books still shows it. But on the other hand, SF has produced a lot of thought compelling and thought provoking books, even thought the genre suffers some stigma, as noted author Kurt Vonnegut Jr once wrote: "I have been a soreheaded occupant of a file drawer labeled Science Fiction and I would like out, particularly since so many serious critics regularly mistake the drawer for a urinal."

      Fantasy does seem to have some interesting works. But there are a lot of books with plots and characters as simple as a Disney's kid's movie.

    14. Re:I tried to read it by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Of course, the whole thing ignores the fact that Sauron was evil, and he committed many evil acts in his thousands of years of existence prior to the events of LotR.

      Well, yes, that's what the elves tell to humans. And you know why you should listen to what the elves tell you? Why, because they saved you all from evil Sauron several thousand years ago, of course!

      (I see that you didn't really get far into the book at all, as there it is said very early that "Sauron" is the family name of the line of kings of Mordor. The one at the time of the War of the Ring is "His Majesty Sauron the VIII").

    15. Re:I tried to read it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sauron was evil? You've bought the Shire-propaganda hook, line and sinker my friend. Sauron was and still is progressive.

      Where is magic now? Clearly, Sauron is still with us stronger than ever..

    16. Re:I tried to read it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who says Sauron was evil? Oh, the texts/myths written by the other side. Right. That's the whole point.
      And you may have been confused, because in this telling, there are and never were any such things as orcs. Orcs were an invention designed to dehumanize the enemy. It's a very common tactic in our own history of war - much easier to brutally murder your fellow man when they aren't "people".

    17. Re:I tried to read it by lgw · · Score: 1

      You forget that in reality one man's evil acts are viewed as another man's noble deeds depending upon from which side you are on

      Some acts are like that, but some acts are just evil, perceived as evil and delighted in as such by all involved. Shallow moral relativism is just bullshit.

      That was one of the points Tolkien was making: some enemies can't be reasoned with, and sometimes there isn't just a difference in viewpoint. Some people actively delight in hurting others, not because they see themselves as good, but because they directly enjoy causing suffering.

      When the victors write history, the enemy is usually described this way, of course, but it's not always inaccurate.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    18. Re:I tried to read it by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      Divine beings in Tolkien's universe are quite real. If one has doubts, then one can simply ask them, or one of their immortal servants. I mean, if the writer wanted to write about how perspective influences events, then that's great. More power to him. But as soon as you set something in Middle Earth, that's it, you have intrinsically accepted how things are in that world. And if you're not doing that, then it ain't Middle Earth, it's just attaching your name to that of a greater writer. The admittance of a great poverty of imagination goes right along with that..."my mind is so tiny I am unable to create anything entirely new, I can only think in terms of a fantasy book I read once." The idea that good can create life and evil can only make imitations or mockeries...let's see, where have we heard that before, OH RIGHT, SAURON DOES THAT.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    19. Re:I tried to read it by winwar · · Score: 1

      "In the real world, no one is truly evil. Not even Hitler."

      Then the term evil has no meaning. Hitler ordered the execution of about 12 million people because he didn't like them. That isn't history being written by the victors. That's called reality. If that isn't evil, then exactly what is?

    20. Re:I tried to read it by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 1

      It's a fantasy novel, people. It's something you read when you're not reading real books.

      "A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of men's imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold." -- J.R.R. Tolkein

      If you think that a fantasy novel is necessarily "something you read when you're not reading real books", you don't understand mythology or human psychology. People fight and love and kill and die on the inspiration of mythology, and -- at its best, admittedly rare as it is -- fantasy touches the mythic.

      It's ambiguous whether it was really Tolkein's goal to produce "mythology for England", but it's pretty clear that his Shire is an idealization of a pastoral English village, and that Sauron and Saruman represent heedless industrialization.

      If you haven't, you ought to read the Moorcock essay in question, Starship Stormtroopers. Not to say I fully agree with it, but it has some points.

      Of course, the whole thing ignores the fact that Sauron was evil, and he committed many evil acts in his thousands of years of existence prior to the events of LotR.

      Of course, your comment misses the whole point of this exercise, that the only source your have for that claim that he was "evil" is a history written by Sauron's opponents. If we lived in a world where the British had crushed the American Revolution, what do you think the history books would say about Washington and Jefferson?

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    21. Re:I tried to read it by russotto · · Score: 1

      I have not read it. Based on the summary, it doesn't sound like LotR from the "other side" ... it sounds more like LotR from the perspective of the Mordor Propoganda Department.

      Or LotR was the story from the perspective of the Valar propaganda department. History being written by the victors and all that.

      And they were fighting against *the rest* of the world, pretty much.

      I got the impression from LotR that Sauron's forces actually had numerical superiority.

      Furthermore, this completely fails to reconcile with the "historical" accounts of Morgoth and his servant Sauron. Unless I am to understand that somehow Morgoth was right all along and everyone else was crazy?

      Why not, it's been done (many times) with the Christian devil.

    22. Re:I tried to read it by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Divine beings in Tolkien's universe are quite real. If one has doubts, then one can simply ask them, or one of their immortal servants.

      Divine beings in Tolkien's universe have only directly manifested themselves in the First Age - where Silmarillion takes place. By the end of Third Age, you most certainly can't ask them. And "one of their immortal servants" - that would be the guys who claim to be such, like the elves. Doesn't mean that they really are.

      Again, try to change your view point. You view the entire collection of Tolkien's works as the definite guide to how things are, and the book as fanfic written in that world. It's not one. Instead, it takes Tolkien's works (which, to remind, are supposed to be actual books and stories in Middle Earth itself - such as LotR is the "Red Book of Westmarch"), and recasts them as literary works of fiction within the universe as seen by contemporary humans. So Silmarillion is really just myths told by elves to humans and then by humans to their children. By the time of the book, there's no way for humans to verify if any of those myths are true - Valinor is "inaccessible", and Valar (much less Eru) do not openly intervene in affairs of the world, so it all really becomes just a matter of faith.

      If you have some ethical objection to doing that in Middle Earth, you can just consider it a "parallel universe". Indeed, while Tolkien has remarked several times that Middle Earth is Earth in some unspecified time in the past, in Yeskov's book it clearly is not, as the aftermath (several centuries after the ending) depicts a modern, technocratic industrialized society within the geopolitical realities of post-WotR Middle Earth (e.g. Reunited Kingdom is still there and dominating).

    23. Re:I tried to read it by Unkyjar · · Score: 2

      It would have been nice to see a skillful representation of the Mordor viewpoint from within the constraints of the cannon.

      Sadly, to my disappointment it isn't as the summary first stated,"The Last Ring-bearer is set during and after the end of the War of the Ring and told from the perspective of the losers." But (as we discover reading further into the summary and the article) is instead a different satirical setting bearing many similarities to Tolkein's world.

      So in the end it's another author doing a politically correct bedtime story in novel form.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politically_Correct_Bedtime_Stories

    24. Re:I tried to read it by Unkyjar · · Score: 1

      It would have been nice to see a skillful representation of the Mordor viewpoint from within the constraints of the cannon.

      Sadly, to my disappointment it is instead a different satirical setting bearing many similarities to Tolkein's world. So in the end it's another author doing a politically correct bedtime story in novel form, and not actually a different perspective in the same novel.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politically_Correct_Bedtime_Stories [wikipedia.org]

    25. Re:I tried to read it by arivanov · · Score: 1

      Yeah, Like Moorcock did create anything different from an endless rehash of how does the Stormbringer look in another reality and each and every one of them worse than the original Stormbringer.

      As far as Fantasy being something you read when you do not read serious books:

      1. Lord of Light
      2. Creatures of Light and Darkness.

      That? Not Serious Books?

      And that is just from Zelazny and while deliberately avoiding Unicorns and Labyrinths for the sake of argument...

      --
      Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
      http://www.sigsegv.cx/
    26. Re:I tried to read it by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      There's a problem with this: LotR, like most fiction books, is written from a third-person omniscient point-of-view. So the author knows everything that's happening, everything the characters are thinking, etc. That's why the author can write about secret events happening on each side, which none of the other characters would be able to know about, even after the fact. When a book is written from this point-of-view, you're supposed to assume that everything there is true.

      If a book were written solely from one character's point-of-view, then a retelling from another character's point-of-view would make sense. Yes, LotR concentrates on the "good guys", as do almost all fiction books, but it also discusses the "bad guys" significantly, telling about their plans, their actions, their history, etc.; things the protagonists wouldn't know that much about. As the reader, you're basically like a little god, except that you can't see forward in time, and you get to see all the events as they happen (no matter where they are).

      Sure, you could do a retelling that is biased more in favor of the other side, but it can only go so far: if it contradicts the actual facts in the first telling, then it really isn't the same story at all, because we must assume the facts are all true (things like all the evil deeds that Sauron did, his plans for taking over Middle-Earth and enslaving everyone, his creation of the Orcs by breeding Elves, etc.).

      Fictional novels aren't like history books, which are indeed written by the victors most of the time, and only have as much information as was available to the writers (and sometimes changes as new letters, manuscripts, records, or archaeological evidence are brought to light).

    27. Re:I tried to read it by PCM2 · · Score: 1

      The 'winners' where for segregation. e.g. separate countries for hobbits and all the others.
      The 'losers' where for integration.

      That's a pretty bizarre interpretation -- all you need to do is look at the Polaroid snapshot of the Fellowship of the Ring they took at Rivendell to see that's not true.

      It's a nice mental exercise, I guess, but you'd be better off applying the same kind of reasoning to, oh I dunno, The Great Gatsby or The Three Musketeers -- anything that's less unambiguous about its worldview than Tolkien.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    28. Re:I tried to read it by sasami · · Score: 1

      Shallow moral relativism is just bullshit.

      More importantly, it's bullshit that is easily refuted.

      --
      Freedom is not the license to do what we like, it is the power to do what we ought.
    29. Re:I tried to read it by Dr.+Spork · · Score: 1

      I don't think you read the story very carefully. The ring was a ruse by Mordor, the goal of which was to divide the Western kingdoms. This failed when Boromir failed to bring the ring to Gondor. It never had the power to command the other rings. Regarding Sauron's evilness, this is not really treated clearly in the story. It's not directly contested, but consider your Almaren evidence: Has a land never been conquered for a noble cause? The point is that we might not be hearing the full story in the tidbits of "history" we pick up. However, if Sauron really was evil, this doesn't mean that his subjects were. Sometimes good people get evil leaders. It sucks.

      But your most puzzling misconception is in thinking that this work "criticizes the shit out of" Tolkien's LotR. It totally doesn't. In fact, it's quite reverential to the original work. It's a tribute to its detail and depth that the events of that story allow for such an interesting re-imagination. This work, unlike most re-imaginings, actually adds a lot of depth (so sorry for the spoilers).

    30. Re:I tried to read it by gmhowell · · Score: 1

      Are you intentionally missing the point that others are trying to explain? Every single thing you 'know' about middle Earth comes from the same potentially tainted source.

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
    31. Re:I tried to read it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The whole point is that Sauron was evil from the point of view of the people of the west. On the other hand, was there ever a time in LotR when the heroes paused to see whether the orcs were attacking them? Anyway things like this happen in the real world. Most of the Germans and Nazis in the second world war believed they were liberating the world from the conspiracy of Jews and communists. So some were just killing "orcs with axes" while others were trying to exterminate the whole twisted species. And yes, this happened also on the side of the Allies. Russia still admires their efforts in the Patriotic War. The casulties and the suffering of innocent in the Baltic countries and German civilian was (at least in numbers) even greater than the one caused by "Nazi orcs". Even Britain and the US committed terrible atrocities (like Dresden and Hamburg). So, at least in the real world every side tends toward evil. Perhaps this was the controversy, the Russian author wanted to point out?

    32. Re:I tried to read it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If Sauron was alive today, he'd be George Soros. You know, the name similarity is uncanny....

  34. I've always wondered... by zoom-ping · · Score: 1

    What were the civilian casualties on the Death Stars? Also, the whole thing would be pretty interesting through the Empires point of view. Yeah, they blew up Alderaan, but what exactly made the Empire evil? Mind, that I've only seen the trilogy and don't know anything about the extended universe.

    1. Re:I've always wondered... by CoderFool · · Score: 1

      Palpatine maneuvered himself into the Chancellorship through some shady dealings. Once he got himself declared Emperor, he dissolved the elected senate and had the Jedi's killed. (all in episodes 1-3). This is more the pattern of an evil conquer. Where the civilians on the death stars innocent or not? In Nazi Germany, the only recognized political party was the Nazi party. If you wanted a job, you had to be a member of the Nazi party. At which point were members of the Nazi political party willing or unwilling participant's in the Nazi conquest of Europe? The unfortunate fact of war is that civilians, innocent or otherwise, willing accomplices to the regime or not, in the path of that war, are going to get killed. The nobler militaries will avoid unnecessary civilian casualties (at least at first), but history shows that the less noble military will exploit that and use civilians as human shields. In the end, if the battle is difficult, the nobleness does not last, as history shows. The Allies firebombed Hamburg and Dresden in World War II in an effort to break the will of the German people to wage war. The US nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki in an effort to break the will of the Japanese people to wage war. Not noble, but needed to bring and end to the war and in the long run prevent even greater numbers of civilian casualties? That's the raging debate. Could the Rebels have defeated the Death Stars without blowing them up and killing all the civilians? Not realistically. Let's not gloss over the fact that Alderaan was destroyed by the first Death Star. Let's not gloss over the fact that in WWII the Japanese and the Germans were the aggressors. Let's not gloss over the fact the Germans routinely targeted civilians and also killed a lot jews, or that the Japanese tested bioweapons on Chinese territory they conquered. They were bad governments and needed to be stopped. The Empire in Star Wars needed to be stopped.

    2. Re:I've always wondered... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What were the civilian casualties on the Death Stars? Also, the whole thing would be pretty interesting through the Empires point of view. Yeah, they blew up Alderaan, but what exactly made the Empire evil? Mind, that I've only seen the trilogy and don't know anything about the extended universe.

      What made the Empire evil? Well, I'm sure there's some works that cover that, but IF you want to make an argument for the Emperor having a higher motive, there is the invasion of the Yuuzhan Vong which some speculate Palpatine was preparing the Galaxy for, by eliminating the stasis-maintaining Jedi and starting a real war.

    3. Re:I've always wondered... by norminator · · Score: 1

      I admire you for saying you've "only seen the trilogy".

      Episodes 1 - 3 should always be passed off as extended universe... or fanfiction.

    4. Re:I've always wondered... by gmhowell · · Score: 1

      Is that you Randall?

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
  35. Re:Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood and the Oz Wicked Witc by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And this is why we must defund the Corporation for Public Broadcasting immediately.

  36. After reading the first few pages of his novel by Shivetya · · Score: 1

    It is more than a bit over the top in the role reversal. While at times I tend to confuse the novels and movies some of the character changes needed to accomplish his story are extreme to the point of bizarreness. So far it is an interesting read, is it a good read, time will tell when I finish it. However fourteen pages in and the portrayals of the formerly good guys is a real stretch, I can see how fans of the book had issues.

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
    1. Re:After reading the first few pages of his novel by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Bear in mind that the book's premise is that LotR is "history written by winners", whereas that book is "history not written by the defeated". The narration at start comes from the point of view of people who have many good reasons to not be objective - and they very much aren't. It all becomes much less black and white as you read further into the book. About the only "really evil" guys by the end are the elves, and even then they're ultimately just struggling for self-preservation - it's just that theirs has to come at the expense of everyone else.

    2. Re:After reading the first few pages of his novel by gmhowell · · Score: 1

      Given how cartoonishly the antagonists in LoTR were portrayed, it would take a very deft author to avoid seeming over the top if the positions were reversed.

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
  37. evil redefined? by CoderFool · · Score: 1

    Whether by science or magic, when you impose your own ideas on other people and force them to live the way you want, not the way they want, that is evil. In this morally relativistic world, evil is still evil when you commit acts where you harm others or deny them their free expression. In the telling or retelling of tales of Middle Earth, the evil is committed by whichever side is the aggressor. I haven't read the retelling, but in the original telling, the armies of Mordor were going about conquering and Gandalf and friends were defending their lives, their homes, and their freedoms.

    1. Re:evil redefined? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, Sauron certainly didn't live happily ever after, so overall "his side" was certainly harmed most. And if you look only at the LOTR part it started out with a hobbit keeping something that was not his. With the "evil is committed by whichever side is the aggressor" definition the person trying to get his purse back from the pickpocket is the evil one, not the pickpocket.

    2. Re:evil redefined? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      I haven't read the retelling, but in the original telling, the armies of Mordor were going about conquering and Gandalf and friends were defending their lives, their homes, and their freedoms.

      The idea behind the retelling is that the original telling (i.e. LotR) is "history written by victors", and the real aggressor was the elves of Lothlorien, whose subtle domination of the uncivilized and separated feudal Western lands, based on their magical powers, was threatened by rapid advance of science and the rise of industrial civilization in Mordor (they've got stationary steam engines already, and were dabbling with electricity). Quote:

      This, then, was the yeast on which Barad-Dur rose six centuries ago, that amazing city of alchemists and poets, mechanics and astronomers, philosophers and physicians, the heart of the only civilization in Middle Earth to bet on rational knowledge and bravely pitch its barely adolescent technology against ancient magic. The shining tower of the Barad-Dur citadel rose over the plains of Mordor almost as high as Orodruin like a monument to Man – free Man who had politely but firmly declined the guardianship of the Dwellers on High and started living by his own reason. It was a challenge to the bone-headed aggressive West, which was still picking lice in its log ‘castles’ to the monotonous chanting of scalds extolling the wonders of never-existing Númenor. It was a challenge to the East, buckling under the load of its own wisdom, where Ying and Yang have long ago consumed each other, producing only the refined static beauty of the Thirteen Stones Garden.

      As well, elves (and wizards/Istari, which are their lapdogs in this setting) seem to be rather staunch environmentalists:

      “Pity is a poor adviser, Saruman. Haven’t you looked in the Mirror with the rest of us?” Gandalf pointed to the large object in the middle of the table, which looked most like a huge bowl full of quicksilver. “There are many roads to the future, but whichever of them Mordor takes, no later than three centuries hence it will access the forces of Nature that no one will be able to harness. Would you like to once again watch them turn the entire Middle Earth and Far West into ashes, in a blink of an eye?”

      If you do not wish to look into the Mirror, look at the smoke rising from their coal furnaces and copper refineries. Walk the salt pans into which they have turned the lands west of Núrnen and try to find one living plant on those half-a-thousand square miles. But make sure not to do it on a windy day, when salty dust rises like a wall over the plain of Mordor, choking everything in its path And note that they have done all that barely out of the crib; what do you think they will do later?”

  38. Better Idea by fuzznutz · · Score: 1

    How about:

    No more free copyright. No more copyright when ink hits the paper. If you want it, you have to register and pay for it. And you have to renew every year to keep it. It only costs a dollar the first year, and we double it every year thereafter. If there is continuing value in the copyright, they will pay. If there is not value, they can release it.

    This way, Disney can keep Mickey Mouse out the hands of us mere mortals as long as they like, but they must pay. Eventually, they can pay off the national debt.

    1. Re:Better Idea by stikves · · Score: 1

      This would actually be BAD for open-source. Many of the projects which are protected by GPL2 and similar licenses, with no additional cost to usually "not so rich" programmers, would need a payment in order to be protected.

      That would either stop students from posting their source code, or create small caesars which has the money (e.g.: your school, or FSF) to copyright them, and require assignment of ownership.

    2. Re:Better Idea by fuzznutz · · Score: 1

      This would actually be BAD for open-source.

      Really??? What is the actual real useful lifetime for open source copyrights or any software for that matter? You can get 8 years of copyright protection for $256 with my plan. That sounds like a bargain to me. In 2010, Windows 2000 was abandoned. That's only a $1024 total copyright registration expense under my plan for a pretty successful commercial software package. If Microsoft wanted to keep it locked up perpetually, it would cost a lot more, but is is really useful to do so?

      You have to decide which is more important: Allow unfettered, free, perpetual copyright, or make it reflect its true value and costs to society. Copyright holders want to make copyright free for their usage, but make breaking copyright cripplingly expensive for us. Let's turn the tables and make copyright holders decide if it is worthwhile and cost effective to keep it for themselves perpetually. It seems fair to me.

  39. Re:Hooray for political statements by techsoldaten · · Score: 2

    You know, Tolkien never discussed the politics of his original set of books and said they are not meant to reflect contemporary politics.

    The author of the 'response' says just about the same thing at the end, telling people to find something better to do if they don't like it.

    In either case, your outrage is misplaced. Each author explicitly disavows any political statement. Authors who do inject politics into every single sentence and phrase tend to be outspoken, since they are trying to achieve poltiical change.

  40. Mordor Perspective... by Landshark17 · · Score: 3, Funny

    You can read the story from the perspecive of Mordor if you like, but I'm still waiting for a version of the original LOTR that removes the offensive word "hobbit" and replaces it with the more politically correct, "large-footed halfling".

    --
    This sig is false.
    1. Re:Mordor Perspective... by ElusiveJoe · · Score: 1

      Hey, what do you mean by that "halfling" thing?! You think the Shire folk is half as good as you? They're gaylings, you hate-breeding mundane!

    2. Re:Mordor Perspective... by Crash24 · · Score: 1

      sed 's/hobbit/large-footed halfling/g' lotr.txt > pc_lotr.txt

    3. Re:Mordor Perspective... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "halfling" is an offensive and politically incorrect word. it should be replaced with "vertically challenged human". so "hobbit" should be replaced with "large-footed vertically challenged human"

    4. Re:Mordor Perspective... by stand · · Score: 1

      In the book in question, Aragorn refers to them as "tiny little dwarves with furry paws." It really is an entertaining book, though I'm only a quarter of the way into it.

      --
      Four fifths of all our troubles in this life would disappear if we would just sit down and keep still. -C. Coolidge
    5. Re:Mordor Perspective... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      since sauron didnt make a set of rings (11?) for the hobbits, would that make them "ring disabled"? but, since a hobbit did wield the one ring, but not in the "normal" manner, should they be "ring differently abled"? I believe that middle earth was considering putting up signs where horses were tethered, showing a hand with no rings on its fingers, to allow those races not able to use magic rings like others do preferential horse tethering. Gandalf was a typical beaurocrat, who made sure the fellowship of the ring had appropriate representation from the various minorities concerned with this make-work project. I suspect gandalf and sauron were in cahoots for the profits from arms/uruk hai manufacture, and the ancillary rights from marketing the scrollage recorded during the war. i believe they had a nice percentage of the royalties from scroll readers employed by the History Guild to retell endlessly the various battles, all in gripping black and white language.

    6. Re:Mordor Perspective... by Junior+J.+Junior+III · · Score: 1

      You should learn sed. It wouldn't take longer than a minute to generate that.

      --
      You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
    7. Re:Mordor Perspective... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Halfling" is an offensive word reeking of heightism.
      The correct word is "alternatively tall individual".

  41. Re:Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood and the Oz Wicked Witc by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Gee. Somebody should write a book about that. Perhaps it could also be turned into a best selling Broadway show.

  42. Re:Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood and the Oz Wicked Witc by doug141 · · Score: 1

    http://www.cracked.com/article_18881_5-reasons-greatest-movie-villain-ever-good-witch.html "Right off the bat, the Western Witch wants to know who killed her sister. Fair enough. Glinda smiles blandly while the witch accuses Dorothy, no doubt enjoying the double whammy of a grieving witch's rage and Dorothy's terror."

  43. Tolkein is dead by Quila · · Score: 3, Insightful

    He can't write any more. No amount of compensation will convince Tolkein to do anymore work.

    So why should the copyright still exist on his work?

  44. Re:Hooray for political statements by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 2

    But Orwell is also an example of how a book can be misinterpreted -- Animal Farm is commonly misread as a critique of communism.

    HAL.

    --
    Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
  45. A review of this book by wardk · · Score: 2

    cannot be located here! however, I have 200 differing opinions from non-copyright lawyers about copyright law.

    after I read this book, I will post a review of the copyright comments entered here.

  46. Re:Hooray for political statements by Inconexo · · Score: 2

    I'd say it have been commonly mis-not-read or mis-spoken-about.

    Seriously, all you have to do is read a little about the author (apart from the book) and you understand what the author is critizicing exactly. You know, Napoleon (character) was evil, but the other farmers weren't nice.

  47. Millions of copies at a dollar each by tepples · · Score: 2

    You let me know when copies of Picasso sell for millions of dollars.

    Millions of copies at a dollar each sell for millions of dollars.

  48. MPAA news by tepples · · Score: 1

    Why not just demand that our leaders pass laws and make treaties that reduces the limits on copyright terms and places some mandatory licensing schemes into play after a certain period of time?

    Because said leaders have repeatedly shown that they won't listen to their constituents on copyright issues. It's impossible to get elected to the U.S. Congress without support of the TV news networks, and MPAA members own those.

    1. Re:MPAA news by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      I think maybe you are confused a little. Said leaders cannot just change copyright laws. Much, if not all of copyright laws that are in question are there and covered by international treaty. Congress does not negotiate treaties and if we repealed all of them (there is actually about 5 in connection with copyright) in order to make adjustments, we would lose some things of value within the treaties.

      And yes, you can argue about who pushed for what treaty all day long, but the US only changed it's laws after the treaties were ratified (as part of the ratification process).

      So what really needs to happen is people need to actually know who to complain to and who to demand results from, who to hold accountable and it more or less needs to be an international effort to get the changes made.

    2. Re:MPAA news by lennier · · Score: 1

      Said leaders cannot just change copyright laws. Much, if not all of copyright laws that are in question are there and covered by international treaty.

      And international commercial treaties are often made in secrecy. Whee! Isn't government by stealth wonderful!

      --
      You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
  49. Ahh, i get it ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sauron was a total sociopath control freak. If he were alive today he'd be in charge of a corporation poisoning the public for profit. The entire point of his forging of The One Ring was slavery.

    ... Sauron is Steve Jobs?

  50. Eldred v. Ashcroft by tepples · · Score: 1

    U.S. copyright in old works used to expire until 2003, when the U.S. Supreme Court upheld the Congress's successful workaround to the Constitution's "limited Times" stipulation. The Copyright Term Extension Act of 1998, criticized by as "perpetual copyright on the installment plan" by librarians and other proponents of participatory culture, is constitutional because on paper, copyrights last "for limited Times" at any given point, even if the Congress repeatedly extends them when they are about to expire.

  51. Cost of legal representation by tepples · · Score: 1

    Not all authors of non-commercial parodies have the money to hire "any halfway decent lawyer" who is familiar with Suntrust v. Houghton Mifflin .

  52. Can analogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just think what would have happened if we still had to pay royalties or not be able to use a "wheel" invention based on some "wheel" patent?

    You will find wheels today everywhere from cars to mechanical inner workings of machines, clocks, trains... etc.etc... we'd be stuck in stone age... this is exactly the case just not on that large of a scale. It is good for people to take an idea and modify it and apply it to solving new problems... I can't understand how human race can just sit idle limiting themselves and watch this in order for to grow capitalism.

    True, this story would affect society on a small-insignificant scale, but how many of these limitations does it take to slow down human evolution and progress of human societies to a stand still?

  53. I'd rather by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'd rather read "Black Book of Arda", but that's just me.

  54. Inaccurate by JockTroll · · Score: 1

    It's not a rewriting from Mordor's perspective, more a reimagining. A proper rewriting in the same narrative universe would have had to have Sauron as still a Maiar, not a human with a title and Arda as Earth, not a parallel world.

    --
    Geeks are so full of shit that "beating the crap out of them" takes a whole new meaning.
  55. That's actually an even worse criterion by Moraelin · · Score: 2

    That's actually IMHO an even worse criterion.

    For a start, SF routinely relies on technologies that are very likely impossible. E.g., the quantum entanglement faster-than-light communication in Mass Effect 2 is flat out getting it wrong what "entanglement" means and does. It can't work that way. E.g., the lightsabers as a laser beam that somehow loops on itself and somehow bounces on other laser beams, is very much bogus.

    Second, in fantasy the "magic" is routinely subject to rules and even calculations. In a lot of fantasy works, it _is_ basically a form of technology.

    Third, fantasy doesn't really need much magic, or indeed at all. In LOTR for example -- and I use that not just because it's the topic, but also as _the_ work of fantasy that started the whole frikken fantasy genre -- there is actually very little magic and virtually none that actually impacts the main plot beyond that enchantment on the ring. The only ones who can do any magic at all, are basically angels, like Gandalf. They're few and they use spells very sparingly, if at all. I mean, what spells does Gandalf use? Making his staff glow? When he wants to help against the orcs, he charges with the sword on his horse, not chuck a fireball.

    Heh, magic was sooo necessary for LOTR. Not.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
  56. Missing the point by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 1

    He asked what made Palpatine evil, you describe his ascent to Emperor. Not even his ascent to Sith lord.

    It is here that the prequels fail. In the original movie it didn't really matter. We are given the most basic background for Darth Vader to give some dimension to his evil but he is evil end of story. The next two movies turn him from the master villain into a henchmen of a greater evil but this only deepens the role of Vader, we know nothing about Palpatine. The prequels should have answered the why of Vader and Palpatine and all we get is an angsty teenager going on a rampage for no good reason. Instead of us showing the Jedi order failing (more then being totally blind) or being corrupt or to strict or whatever we get little more then a angry kid who can't see either that is he is being manipulated. It ain't up to Fantasy standards. It might make sense in a drama, where mis understandings are the name of the game but not in a space-opera where we like our motives well and truly explained.

    As for your idiotic statement about civilians aboard the death star. Are you insane? How many civilians are their aboard military vessels on active duty in a war zone? Zero? The only people that would have been there who didn't serve the empire were rebels prisoners. And that they only saved the royal princess in a huge prison, well that is the way these stories go. Guards die. If you want to read about their story, read Terry Pratchetts Guards! Except that he makes them into undying heroes as well. The story of the private who gets killed in the first scene just isn't that interesting.

    But really, we are in dangerous Myth Busters waters here where we start to believe movie fantasy is reality and movie special effects need to be tested for realism.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

    1. Re:Missing the point by zoom-ping · · Score: 1

      Death Star had to have maintenance crew. Also, the second one was being built when the rebels blew it up, possibly with a bunch of civilian engineers and contractors. Do you think the people who built and serviced it were in the military?

    2. Re:Missing the point by Unkyjar · · Score: 1

      Why use civilians when the imperial clone army corp of engineers can do it for you at negligible cost?

    3. Re:Missing the point by witherstaff · · Score: 1

      There is a death star civilian story called "Death Star". It was one of the sci fi bookclub books I missed cancelling. While I mostly avoid the after series of books once they got past the few good writers and started taking stories from anyone, this was a decent read but not up to the Timothy Zahn books. They did show there were the 'just doing my job' grunts. Also a lot of bad cop mentality with the storm troopers. The best part tho, was that the exhaust vent was a hack addon because of a pointy hair boss didn't do a complete engineering study. But yeah, the "good guys" did blow up a lot of civilian contractors.

    4. Re:Missing the point by gmhowell · · Score: 1

      Yes, we all saw 'Clerks'.

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
  57. Seen from another's viewpoint, you missed it by Libertarian001 · · Score: 1

    The Last Ringbearer

    Whoosh

    Your head

    Sorry bro, but you completely missed the point.

  58. But that is actually the point by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 2

    The premise is NOT that Sauron was not evil but that history is written by the victor. IF Sauron had won, what would history have recorded of him?

    Only in movies do the evil guys proclaim their evil. Hitler (oh come on, this is a thread about evil) never ever made a speech proclaiming that he was this evil creature who just wanted to see the world burn to create from its ashes a hellish world in which he himself would be the first in the gas chambers (diseased, crippled and non-arian)

    So, if you take that history invariably is written with some propoganda motives by the victor, what if you turn it around? Read the losers propaganda. That Eisenhower was a puppet for the eternal jew (actual part of Hitlers speech on the decleration of war on the US) etc etc. Lies? Yes, we think so but would we also be thinking this if Hitler had won? How many germans actually believed this to the very core of their body so that it was reality to them?

    Sauron is evil but we are told this by his enemies. Why are orcs corrupted? Because the other side said so? Well, bad luck for a lot of groups on earth then, we all have been called corrupted and evil by someone else at some time or another. Doesn't make it true does it?

    Take Napoleon. Short mad man intent on forcing his will on the entire world... as told by the british. Except he wasn't short and we are told this by the British EMPIRE the largest empire ever in human history... In Napoleon's army religion did not matter, merit dictated who was promoted. Not so in the British army. Who Napoleon really is depends a lot on who you ask. And who the British are... well a LOT of people will have something to say about that.

    Yes, this particular book does tend to gloss over a lot of things OR you can ask if what you read in the The Lord of the Rings, was the real story. Of course it was, it is fiction. But just imagine "how the west was won" written through a native American's eyes. The industrial revolution through a child of three forced to work in a mine with no light for 12 or more hours a day. Is James Watts a hero then? Custer a Mengele?

    This is not really about trying to excuse the fictional character of Sauron and the actions that his creator dictated he has committed but trying through the Star Trek method of putting aliens in place of real life to get us to think about how history, the "truth" comes into being.

    You look at this new book as if Sauron still is the guy from the Lotr, the entire premise is that the Lotr is a lie.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

    1. Re:But that is actually the point by CannonballHead · · Score: 1

      If it's simply an "other-biased" version of history, then ok.

      But LotR takes place after other historical events. This isn't just Sauron; many years (and two distinct "ages" I believe?) came before LotR; so this isn't just claiming LotR is a lie, but that the entire history of Middle Earth is a lie. It has to be, otherwise you can't claim that Sauron isn't really the "bad" guy. It's forcing a different viewpoint into a story that cannot contain that viewpoint. If you rewrote the entire history of Middle Earth ... as well as Valinor and Eru and everything. The "history" of Sauron lies in Morgoth, the Valar, and eventually Eru/Ilúvatar (we'll see if the accent goes through :-o). To rewrite the history of Sauron in the manner that I understand it is (again, I have not read it... going based on the summary/other people's comments), you would also have to rewrite the entire history of Arda, pretty much.

      And you would also have to somehow attempt to show that Eru is evil, as well as all the Valar except Melkor/Morgoth.

      This would be like trying to not simply to show that Hitler was good and the rest of the world was bad; it would mean somehow trying to functionally rewrite the entire history of the world to show that a long succession of "Hitler" characters (vs. the rest of the world) were ALL good, and everyone else was bad.

      My point: I can see the draw of the "what if history weren't written like that?" viewpoint. However, in order to "rewrite" LotR history from a different victor's viewpoint, said victor's viewpoint would also have to be applied to the entire history of Sauron, which goes back to Melkor, and back to the creation of Arda... otherwise, it will simply be a large inconsistency.

      I suppose you could have some sort of metatheme where Sauron is all about inconsistency or something.

    2. Re:But that is actually the point by WillAdams · · Score: 1

      In that case you'd want to try _The Black Book of Arda_ instead.

      The thing which I'm curious about, is what is it in Russia that makes them choose to identify w/ and retcon for, or do causuist apologetics for Morgoth and Sauron?

      William

      --
      Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
    3. Re:But that is actually the point by tetromino · · Score: 1

      The thing which I'm curious about, is what is it in Russia that makes them choose to identify w/ and retcon for, or do causuist apologetics for Morgoth and Sauron?

      The Russian people have been exposed to twenty years of Western pop culture telling them that the Soviet Union was evil (despite their own memories telling them that it wasn't) and before that, to seventy years of Soviet propaganda telling them that the West is evil (and then gaining the opportunity to travel to the West and see for themselves that it isn't). They have gotten used to reading between the lines and mistrusting officially accepted accounts of historical events. As a result, when a Russian opens a book and reads that Sauron was 100% utterly evil, his natural suspicion is immediately aroused; he starts to think, well, maybe Sauron really wasn't such a bad guy, and Tolkien's version of the story is just propaganda?

    4. Re:But that is actually the point by CannonballHead · · Score: 1

      I did see that referenced and thought that sounded a bit more of a complete rewrite, which would make more sense... at least at trying to make a coherent alternate version. Have you read it?

    5. Re:But that is actually the point by ringm000 · · Score: 1

      These other "historical events" are a creation myth. Think the Bible, or Talmud, or Quran (if you are a Christian, Muslim or Jew, choose the one you don't believe in). There are many people in this world who think these books are historically accurate, and they were used used so many times to decide who is right and who is wrong. Used to claim the status of a god chosen nation. Used to justify endless wars.

      I don't know if you noticed, but in this book all mentions of "Eru" are literally equivalent to phrases with the words "god" ("praise Eru", "in Eru's name", "Eru is his witness", "Great Eru", "Almighty Eru"), and "Morgoth" is directly equivalent to "devil" ("devil's tricks", "devil's spawn").

      I'm pretty sure Yeskov (like an overwhelming majority of Russians) is an atheist, while Tolkien was very religious.

    6. Re:But that is actually the point by Unkyjar · · Score: 1

      It would have been nice to see a skillful representation of the Mordor viewpoint from within the constraints of the cannon.

      Sadly, to my disappointment it doesn't try to be set in Tolkein's world and is instead a different satirical setting bearing many similarities to Tolkein's world.

      The premise is more akin to politically correct bedtime stories than a parallax book like Ender's Shadow.

    7. Re:But that is actually the point by sasami · · Score: 1

      If the premise of the book is simply an admonishment to be more thoughtful and skeptical with regard to history, that's quite commendable.

      But it seems more that the premise of the book is to advocate the extreme (yet fashionable) idea that historical truth is impossible. That's not commendable, because it is nonsense.

      Thus, the maxim "History is written by the winners" means something completely different depending on whether you believe the former or the latter. If the former -- the realist position -- then it means that historical truth exists but it must be carefully extracted from multiple biased viewpoints. If the latter -- the postmodern position -- then it means that historical truth doesn't exist at all, so every viewpoint is just as valid as any other. (That's no exaggeration. Consider historian E.P. Sander's opinion that "No historical events can be verified, even events that we have recorded on videotape.")

      So when you say:

      the entire premise is that the Lotr is a lie.

      that doesn't tell me quite enough about this book. Is Eskov's premise that LotR is contains many lies and must be examined, or is it that all histories are nothing but lies and you can therefore spin any event in any way to benefit any party you like?

      One telling fact gives it away, I think. If Eskov wanted to demonstrate a realist position, then he could have written the book as if Sauron were a good guy being slandered by the victors. But he doesn't. He writes as if good and evil are nothing but interpretations that a historian imposes upon the record in order to elevate one side over another. This is elementary postmodern historiography: to Eskov, it seems, the opposite of Tolkien's position is not "Sauron's history was misrepresented and he was actually quite decent" but rather "history is fiction and good is relative."

      And that is the subtle (and probably unintentional) sleight-of-hand that rankles me. Eskov's project was to characterize LotR as being biased by writing a parallel account in the same world. He must write The Last Ringbearer within Tolkien's fictional world for any comparison with LotR to be valid. Yet the unavoidable issue is that The Last Ringbearer does not take place in Tolkien's world. It takes place in a world where Sauron and elves and magic exist but morality does not, and that is Eskov's world, not Tolkien's world. In such a world, an account like LotR loses by definition. Eskov's project only appears to succeed because he has imported a premise that makes it impossible for him to fail, i.e., it is circular.

      That doesn't mean The Last Ringbearer isn't good literature. It's a fine story in its own right, and I am impressed with Eskov's cleverness. But if he set out to write the same story from a different viewpoint, the book does not qualify. It simply isn't the same story if it does not take place in the same world. The comparison cannot be made, and therefore lessons about real-world historiography cannot be drawn.

      Well, I take that back. There is a meta-lesson about real-world historiography: don't import premises that make your argument circular. Historians who believe that morality is relative automatically dismiss any moral claim as being non-historical. Historians who believe morality is objective do the opposite. Those are not historical judgments, they are philosophical judgments disguised as history. That doesn't mean that each view of history is equally correct; it means that one of those views on morality is mistaken and you ought to sort that out before you can accurately do history.

      --
      Freedom is not the license to do what we like, it is the power to do what we ought.
    8. Re:But that is actually the point by PCM2 · · Score: 1

      Sauron is evil but we are told this by his enemies. Why are orcs corrupted? Because the other side said so?

      I understand what you're getting at, but in this specific case, orcs are corrupted because Sauron took living beings (elves) and corrupted them. Even if you reject the word "corrupted" as used in the text and substitute the word "engineered," Sauron is at best a eugenicist. Remember also that we're talking about a world with an explicit concept of a godhead and living beings with a direct connection to it. Gandalf was called a "wizard" but he's really much closer to what you might think of as an angel. It's for these and other reasons that while this take on LotR might be cute, it doesn't really ring true.

      Also, boy, the author's writing style is hard for me to swallow. Maybe it's just the translation, but the dialogue in particular does not do it for me.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    9. Re:But that is actually the point by WillAdams · · Score: 1

      Interesting. I've always thought the whole political labeling thing was a bad idea --- it's far more workable in the long term to attack specifics, rather than labels.

      William

      --
      Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
    10. Re:But that is actually the point by WillAdams · · Score: 1

      No, I went off my Tolkien kick a long while ago (burned out while trying to read _The Complete History of Middle Earth_ at Vol. 4 or so. I've been finding it more difficult to find things to read, so may have to re-visit this at some point in time.

      Pastiches don't really interest me either --- I'd rather have a good burger than a mediocre steak and all that --- and much of contemporary and recent fantasy is what has been characterized on rec.arts.sf.written as ``EFP'' Extruded Fantasy Product.

      William

      --
      Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
    11. Re:But that is actually the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also, that's how was written in Tolkien's books. Just spin in around and you can get something like:

      1. He came there but they already was like that. Why wouldn't it will be possible? Say, someone need perfect species. Create a bunch and drop them somewhere. Those who lived - perfect, those who don't - they are dead or are someone else anyway.

      2. He came there and they become like that as an indirect result of seeing him at all. It is not that far-fetched as he is 2nd most powerful being in the world while they are like children at the moment. In this scenario he is still responsible, but...

      3. etc.

      From the outside it's all looks the same: he came there - they become orcs.

    12. Re:But that is actually the point by JSlope · · Score: 1

      You're actually right, there are better Russian writers, this book is only famous because it tells the LoTR from the other perspective.

      --
      ResoMail - the alternative secure e-mail system
  59. Poor quality translation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I just downloaded the PDF and skimmed the first dozen pages or so.

    The text is in heavy need of editing. Punctuation and capitalization is non-standard, there are odd quotes around certain bits of vocabulary, and the prose is disjointed enough to make this a slow, unrewarding slog. Not reading Polish, I don't know whether this is the fault of the author or the translator, but likely the latter since this is volunteer work...

    If you are expecting a readable translation, expect disappointment.

  60. As usual... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the truth lies somewhere in between!

  61. Novel: Wicked by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That was the premise behind the novel Wicked, which is also a Broadway musical.

  62. From Here to Eternity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When I first saw the title of this article, I was almost certain it said "LotR Rewritten From a Moroder Perspective". I assumed it was some sort of Italo disco deal.

  63. Re:Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood and the Oz Wicked Witc by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's the entire script of the Broadway show "Wicked". It's awesome.

  64. Re:Hooray for political statements by sentientbeing · · Score: 1

    Thats true. Ive seen the 1970s film version with Bodil Joensen and its nothing like that AT ALL

    --

    ------
    beware he who would deny you access to information, for in his mind he dreams himself your master
  65. Re:Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood and the Oz Wicked Witc by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If that's so, then you should check out Wicked or book it's based off of . Both retelling of the Wizard of Oz from the perspective of the Witches.

  66. Copyright by Pseudonymus+Bosch · · Score: 1

    Tell me again, how exactly copyright encourages creation of new works?

    Tolkien worked from public-domain works and added a lot. According to copyright theory, copyright encourages authors to do that. Otherwise, we would have to read the original Beowulf or Kalevala instead of Tolkien's works. Thanks to copyright, Tolkien was encouraged to publish his work.
    Actually, probably Tolkien would have created his work anyway. He wrote Christmas stories for children and did a lot of background work that was not published in his lifetime. But it can be argued that the existence of Allen & Unwin encouraged him to actually publish.

    As for Yeskov, it is a derivative. I don't know how he was able to be published in Spanish and other languages.

    --
    __
    Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
    GW Bu
  67. Soviet background by Pseudonymus+Bosch · · Score: 1

    Tolkien abhorred of political interpretations of his work, but you can read in Yeskov some justification of the Soviet civilization (or maybe the Central Asian version of it) versus the West.

    --
    __
    Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
    GW Bu
  68. What about LORD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Legend Of The Red Dragon.

    I miss that bbs door

  69. Rule of the shorter term by tepples · · Score: 1

    Much, if not all of copyright laws that are in question are there and covered by international treaty. Congress does not negotiate treaties and if we repealed all of them (there is actually about 5 in connection with copyright) in order to make adjustments, we would lose some things of value within the treaties.

    The primary copyright treaty under TRIPs is the Berne Convention, which allows a country to adopt the rule of the shorter term. If the Congress were to adopt this rule, it would roll back the copyright term for works of e.g. Canadian authorship to life+50. Then the US could roll back the copyright term for "United States works" to life+50 while still recognizing life+70 terms in those foreign countries with which the US has a specific bilateral treaty. Or does the Constitution allow treaties to override domestic policy?

    1. Re:Rule of the shorter term by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Actually, the Berne convention provides for life plus 50 years in article 7. It's 50 years for anonymous or pseudonymous works unless the author is somehow known then life plus 50.

      It allows longer terms for any country, and lower terms only for countries bound by the Rome convention at the time of signing the treaty. That is where your link comes into play. regardless of terms outlined in the Berne Convention, foreign works will only be protected as long as it's protected within it's originating country.

      This means if some country has a copyright of 20 years, we can follow that copyright term on that's country's original works only- else we have to follow our own.

    2. Re:Rule of the shorter term by tepples · · Score: 1

      That's sort of what I was trying to say: a sane country should roll back its own term to life+50, the Berne minimum, and then use the rule of the shorter term to ignore the last 20 years of, say, EU copyrights. Or would rolling back a copyright term be considered a "taking" in violation of the U.S. Fifth Amendment?

    3. Re:Rule of the shorter term by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      I'm going to have to check again, but I think the Uruguay round table added the extra 20 years in 96 or so. I'm not sure any country or sets of countries that has moved up could move back without at least readdressing that. If if they are going to do one, they might as well try to tackle a lot more.

      As for the fifth amendment, I don't think it would matter with dropping only 20 years off because the actual loss would be realized after the copyright holder is dead. In other words, the copyright holder wouldn't realize the loss themselves and would be giving the copyright to someone else so it would automatically be worth the value it was when given to them.. Not the value they think it should have been. I could be wrong though. It just seems like there might actually be one of those loop holes in there because it would have to change hands.

      And I'm sure that someone would try to make the case that they deserve just compensation. So if it did happen, we would most likely see it in the courts.

  70. Monkey love by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Someone plz gimme some spicy hot monkey love NOW!

  71. "Oh Lord, not another . . . by wrencherd · · Score: 1

    . . . f***ing elf."

  72. "Wicked Witch", by Demons & Wizards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    From your comment, I think you may enjoy this song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lCpQU75gsY

  73. A decade before... by Protoslo · · Score: 1

    Another Russian biologist, Nikolay Perumov also wrote a sequel to LoTR from the perspective of Sauron's side. I only know this, however, because I read about in The Book Barn's "That was the Worst Book Ever!" thread. Read it with caution: it was originally written as a fanfic (like TFA's work), which was later published.

  74. Re:Hooray for political statements by PCM2 · · Score: 1

    But Orwell is also an example of how a book can be misinterpreted -- Animal Farm is commonly misread as a critique of communism.

    Hmmm, maybe I'm misunderstanding you here, but I find it hard to imagine what other reading you could make of it. I thought Orwell was pretty explicit that he wrote Animal Farm as a critique of communism, or more specifically, of communist totalitarianism as practiced by Stalin. If you're saying Orwell was not necessarily a critic of socialism, on the other hand, I agree there.

    --
    Breakfast served all day!
  75. Typical of Russians by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    More Soviet revisionist history

  76. Re:Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood and the Oz Wicked Witc by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And then they made the play called "Wicked" ...

  77. Re:Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood and the Oz Wicked Witc by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you haven't read Wicked: http://www.amazon.com/Wicked-Life-Times-Witch-Years/dp/0061350966/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1298340196&sr=8-1

    you really should :)

  78. Re:Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood and the Oz Wicked Witc by hawk · · Score: 1

    During a web search on the early web (pre-google search, iirc), I came upon a left-wing paper's television listing for the wizard of oz, to the effect of, "A young girl travels to a foreign land, kills the first person she meets, and sets out to kill again" . . .

  79. Counter Point by way2slo · · Score: 1

    While I too have also not read it, however I can easily understand how any differing view of events can look like it came from a "Propoganda Department". There is always more than one side to any story. Self Defense from one view may appear to be Murder from another.

    Going all the way back to the Music of the Ainur, Melkor had just as much right as any of the Valar as to what was to become of Middle-Earth and the peoples within it. Manwë and the others formed a clique about what the Vision of Ilúvatar should be like and left Melkor out. Basically, Melkor was the geek outcast to the popular Valar. Melkor was the smartest of the bunch, "the nerd". The popular crowd even sent their "jock", Tulkas, to go beat up Melkor and stuff him in a locker. Go read The Silmarillion for yourself. It's all there.

    The whole War of Wrath, and everything else, was probably started when Melkor made some really creative thing and the others were jealous and then ruined it. Why? Because they didn't approve. Who are they? Nobody special. They were all essentially equal with no one really having a real claim over another. But they chose to gang up on him because he was different. Melkor's idea of beauty didn't fit in with theirs, so they went about ridiculing and undermining all that he tried to do. Push came to shove, and next thing you know the Valar ganged up on Melkor. Melkor sees that he'll never get his own way with anything as long as the popular Valar gang is keeping him down. So he decided to wreck what they are trying to do. It's not "evil", it's JUSTICE! Melkor's responding in kind. And he's very good at it 'cause he's smarter than all of them. Melkor is the geek. Along the way he starts to gather his own clique of outcasts from the Valar gang, one of which is Sauron. Obviously, the Valar gang stepped on a lot of toes with their "Holier than Thou" attitude. They even started using derogatory nick-names to reference him, like Morgoth. See that? He's geeky AND goth and they make fun of him 'cause he's different.

    But, you can't fight the popular clique. Principal Ilúvatar is always going to side with them. Eventually the Valar brats gets Melkor expelled from Middle-Earth High. Sure, Melkor probably went too far here and there, but if the Valar brats did to you what they did to Melkor...you'd be fighting right along side him. All because the Valar brats thinks that technology and industry, and the Vo-Tech kids in general, are stupid and ugly. Melkor's best friend, Sauron, swears that he'll do what he can to make them pay for it, but it is to no avail. They get him expelled too.

    The Rings of Power. That was Sauron's last ditch effort to show the rest of Middle-Earth how the wool was pulled over their eyes by the Valar. The Rings of Power didn't brainwash anyone. Sauron just showed them the kind of life they could be living if not for the Valar keeping them down. There were all kinds of technological cool stuff that they could be using to improve their lives. The Rings alone gave them superpowers. IMMORTALITY! Sauron basically said to The Nine, "look at all this cool technology you could you could be using. The Valar have been keeping it from you only because they are technophobes. Isn't that stupid?!" And The Nine were like "This stuff is AWESOME! You're totally freakin' right! How have I been living without these things?? Sign me up." (it was probably similar to when you got your first smart-phone) I'm sure Sauron was proably workin' on some steampunk tech too before the end. Just take a look at Grond.

    You see, it's not that Melkor was Right or Wrong. He was DIFFERENT. That's all. But the Valar didn't like that, not one bit. So they went about humiliating him and destroying him and all his friends. Does that sound "Right" to you?

  80. It took all day, but I finished it and loved it. by Dr.+Spork · · Score: 1

    I'm not going to provide a full review, but I will say this: It's worth reading. Parts of it, like the chilling conversation with the Nazgul, are absolutely brilliant. I came away with the impression that the trilogy makes more sense now. I guess I just never really believed Tolkien when he painted a country/kingdom as being unambiguously evil in every way. This story doesn't claim that Mordor was good while the others were evil. It just that like the other powers, Mordor had noble motives that wholly good people could understandably follow. Those motives were actually really interesting and deep. If we view the Middle Earth myth as fake history, I have to say this take is a whole lot more plausible than Tolkien's own.

  81. TRIPS is life+50 by tepples · · Score: 1

    I think the Uruguay round table added the extra 20 years in 96 or so.

    Wikipedia's article about TRIPS, the copyright treaty negotiated in Uruguay, doesn't mention anything beyond the life+50 of Berne. Go ahead and follow the WP article's citations if you remember differently. As I understand it, treaty requirements for life+70 come out of largely Bush-era bilateral treaties between the United States and other countries.

    I don't think it would matter with dropping only 20 years off because the actual loss would be realized after the copyright holder is dead.

    At that point, the copyright owner is the author's estate, and the estate can still argue that the copyright was "taken" from it and demand compensation.

    1. Re:TRIPS is life+50 by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Wikipedia's article about TRIPS, the copyright treaty negotiated in Uruguay, doesn't mention anything beyond the life+50 of Berne. Go ahead and follow the WP article's citations if you remember differently. As I understand it, treaty requirements for life+70 come out of largely Bush-era bilateral treaties between the United States and other countries.

      I can't find any of my old links from when I used to actually pay attention to this, but I could find some related links.

      This link here sums it up pretty well It was the Uruguay Round table agreements of 1993 that is credited for the EU's Copyright Duration Directive (93/98/EEC) (Directive harmonizing the term of copyright protection) which eventually was replaced with the Directive 2006/116/EC

      The Copyright extension act in the US was passed in 1996-98 or so It was introduced after the 1993 round table. To assume they were unrelated would be a tragic mistake in understanding it all for the purpose of changing it.

  82. Nothing to Contribute by RancidPeanutOil · · Score: 1

    ...but it was so awful I had to comment. Awful, awful - like Shannara-awful. Utterly terrible fan-fiction/mary-sue non-david-foster-wallace-ishy david-foster-wallace footnoting in the main text, modern idioms, just ridiculous. The translation also has some pretty glaring errors - lots of present perfect tenses stuck inside of relative clauses consistently (you keep using that tense - it doesn't mean what you think it means). Not a terrible or unexpected translation for an L2 translator, but it adds to the cumulative effect. Sorry, but bad.

  83. Re:Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood and the Oz Wicked Witc by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When I was a young child decades ago, Fred Rogers had the woman who played the Wicked Witch from the Wizard of Oz on his program. She explained how they did the scene where she melted. But she also tried to get kids to think about what things looked like from the Wicked Witch's perspective. Her sister was killed. The one keepsake was stolen. Her home was invaded. Finally, she is attacked just for defending herself and trying to get back her sister's property. And so on. It really shocked me in a good way, to think that things looked different from her point of view.

    Here is a FOSS project (Rakontu) my wife developed (I helped a small bit) to help people see situations from multiple perspectives.

        http://www.rakontu.org/

    Read or go see Wicked. I loved it. It made all the good people into bad people and all the bad people into good people. My favorite line was, "It's a pair of shoes. Get over it!"

  84. Re:Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood and the Oz Wicked Witc by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.cracked.com/article_18881_5-reasons-greatest-movie-villain-ever-good-witch.html