Microsoft's SkyDrive Drops Silverlight

mikejuk writes "Microsoft's SkyDrive, a web service that provides cloud storage for end user files, has just acquired a revamped user interface — and it is HTML5 based. Yes, another Microsoft website has dropped Silverlight. How can Microsoft expect independent developers to base their future on Silverlight when Microsoft itself is abandoning it like a sinking ship? Whatever happened to 'eating your own dog food'? It seems that now Microsoft would rather eat dog food made elsewhere..."

Comments

MS hate

[cgeys]

So Microsoft starts using standards compliant HTML5 instead of Silverlight on their sites and you bash them for it? Seriously?

And regardless, HTML5 was nowhere to be seen when Silverlight came out. It was needed back then, if only as a competitor for Flash. Have you noticed Silverlight hasn't even had the same security concerns and exploits as Flash?

This is a good thing from Microsoft, not bad. Stop bashing them for everything they do, even if its a good thing.

Re:MS hate

[The MAZZTer]

Have you noticed Silverlight hasn't even had the same security concerns and exploits as Flash?

You have to be fair; noone will exploit a plugin nobody has installed or uses.

Re:MS hate

[Richard_at_work]

This is a perfect example of "damned if they do, damned if they don't".

Oh, and typical Slashdot bullshit :)

Re:MS hate

[Anonymous Coward]

True. It's more of them "using the appropriate tool for the job". Silverlight might have other / better uses elsewhere, not a Web UI, what with tools like HTML 5 and CSS3. This is good news.

Re:MS hate

[gilesjuk]

It's good for the public and the browser makers. But damned annoying for the developers who believed the Silverlight evangelists preaching about how it was going to kill Flash.
It's also a bit irritating for those who invested time building Silverlight chart engines and other rich controls for reporting tools.

Re:MS hate

[Anonymous Coward]

And regardless, HTML5 was nowhere to be seen when Silverlight came out. It was needed back then, if only as a competitor for Flash.

If that would have been the case somebody would have actually used it. I haven't seen a single non-Microsoft site that used Silverlight. Even on MS sites it was just for optional fluff.

I agree though that the article is overly bash-happy. I'm sure MS had a lot influence on HTML5 so they're still eating their own dog food.

Re:MS hate

[hasbeard]

I have to agree with the original poster. Usually Microsoft is criticized for taking someone else's work and adding their own proprietary elements (e.g., their own version of Java) which is incompatible with what everyone else is doing. It may not please their developer community, but it may lead to other people willing to develop for their platforms.

Re:MS hate

[Anonymous Coward]

No one other than those 23.6 million subscribers of Netflix...

Re:MS hate

[kwerle]

Have you noticed Silverlight hasn't even had the same security concerns and exploits as Flash?

You have to be fair; noone will exploit a plugin nobody has installed or uses.

Netflix is still using Silverlight, right? Doesn't that mean it has a reasonably large user base?

Re:MS hate

[Anonymous Coward]

Hear! Hear!

I love me some MS bashing now and then - especially when they deserve it - as much as the next /.er. This is not one of those times. MS embracing open standards and specs is a good thing. Here's to hoping that this is a sign of things to come (I do know better but what the hell..)

Re:MS hate

[Ruke]

I certainly agree that Microsoft using HTML5 over Silverlight is a good thing. I can also see how shops who've invested heavily in Silverlight would be upset that Microsoft seems to be phasing away from the format. Can we treat this like a news topic, where we discuss potential implications, instead of assuming that Slashdot is a hive mind and has to come to a "THIS GOOD" or "THIS BAD" consensus?

Re:MS hate

[TheCRAIGGERS]

Sometimes we bet on the wrong technology. Shit, like change, happens. All you can do is see it coming and move on to what did win.

Hell, I remember going through the same thing after putting a bunch of time into learning Borland OWL, back when it was competing with Microsoft's MFC. I was too evangelical myself at the time to see what was going to happen and I paid for it.

Re:MS hate

[pandrijeczko]

Yep, they can have a pat on the back for this one... though I still haven't forgiven them for the 1997 bailout of Apple.

Re:MS hate

[sexconker]

This is a good thing because MS is using Silverlight when it makes sense, and HTML 5 / canvas when that makes sense.

The problems with Flash were:
1 - Massive, frequent security holes.
2 - Performance.
3 - Everyone using Flash unnecessarily

When Silverlight came about / was in the works:
1 - People used Silverlight when it made sense (because the people that started to use it were ones that hated Flash but needed its functionality)
2 - Security issues were minimal compared to Flash
3 - Performance was pretty good

When GPU acceleration for browser shit came about, you didn't give a shit about performance.

Now that HTML5 / canvas is around, much of what needed a plugin such as Flash or Silverlight can be rendered by browsers natively.
This doesn't mean Silverlight is dead, it just means that it's not necessary for today's typical content (video and some of the fancier CSS, basically).

Idiots will bitch about MS abandoning Silverlight. They're wrong.
Zealots will cheer about MS using HTML 5 (or, on the fanboy side, laugh at them for taking so long).

Users will be happy that Silverlight is an option, is being used only when necessary, and that interface design in general is looking at functionality and usability before pointless Flashiness.

Re:MS hate

[Joce640k]

Have you noticed Silverlight hasn't even had the same security concerns and exploits as Flash?

It's certainly had its fair share of "critical updates"... ...none of which have managed to install itself on any of my machines.

I'm pretty sick of saying "don't install this" after it fails for the umpteenth time (but still asks me to reboot my machine anyway).

Re:MS hate

[locallyunscene]

That's what I was thinking too. If silverlight had wide adoption they would have stuck with it. But if they can't have the vendor lock in they don't want anybody to have it so HTML5 it is.

Re:MS hate

[NuShrike]

No when you count the users on iPhones, PS3s, Androids, Rokus, Boxees, Wiis, Xbox 360s, TiVos, Wimpy7s, etc etc.

No Silverlights there, and becoming practically irrelevant except for PCs.

Re:MS hate

[Joce640k]

Netflix can continue to use Silverlight even if Microsoft deprecates it.

As for the "developers", I'm pretty sure Microsoft has a good idea of the real numbers. Apparently they don't think it's enough to worry about.

Re:MS hate

[drb226]

Have you noticed Silverlight hasn't even had the same security concerns and exploits as Flash?

In fairness, the lack of "security concerns" in Silverlight compared to Flash in this case is rather similar to Linux's lack of "security concerns" compared to Windows. It's just not used nearly as much.

Re:MS hate

[sjames]

Next to flash, that's a drop in the bucket. I offer you two boxes. One contains 1 million dollars, the other 1 billion dollars. I will give you one and only one, no tricks. Which do you take?

Re:MS hate

[TheNinjaroach]

So Microsoft starts using standards compliant HTML5 instead of Silverlight on their sites and you bash them for it? Seriously?

The submitter must be one of many bitter developers who bought into Silverlight to begin with.

Re:MS hate

[Anonymous Coward]

http://riastats.com/

Silverlight is actually on 75% of Internet browsers.

Re:MS hate

[NuShrike]

Shops that heavily invested in Silverlight deserve getting razed for it.

When all the post-PC news does not involve MS nor MS technologies to any significant degree, going SIlverlight to shortcut real development is pure, moronic suicide. In fact at this point, heavily investing in any MS-technologies without hedging (such as DirectX while the rest of the mobile world is OpenGLES 2.x) is just daft.

Re:MS hate

[ron_ivi]

> So Microsoft starts using standards compliant HTML5 instead of Silverlight on their sites and you bash them for it? Seriously?

No, we bash them for pushing one technology on their customers for the sake of getting them locked in, while internally they know those technologies suck and they use better stuff for themselves. The way Bing uses Hadoop is another example. And the way they're soon to be a big postgres shop (skype) yet another.

They know what the right technologies are. But they keep selling their developers on other stuff.

Re:MS hate

[Andy Dodd]

Yup. It's simple - Silverlight has failed, and it is a mixed fault between the developers and Microsoft. Anyone targeting Silverlight at this point is an idiot - the writing is on the wall and it has been for a long time.

Things that are Microsoft's fault - Not making clearer specs so third-party implementations (Moonlight) could maintain parity with Silverlight in terms of support, instead of lagging behind like Moonlight has. Moonlight has been a failure because it has never supported anything other than example galleries full of backlevel Silverlight examples.

Things that are the developer's fault - Jumping immediately to the latest Silverlight release, cutting off access to anyone using a non-MS platform, making Silverlight less relevant.

The only thing keeping Silverlight alive at this point is Netflix, and that's just a matter of time - PC users are probably a small fraction of Netflix Instant Streaming users. Silverlight was supposed to allow Netflix to reach a larger audience than their old Windows Media based solution, but it utterly failed there.

As others have pointed out, Silverlight is a solution to a problem that no longer exists. It was supposed to break Adobe's Flash stranglehold - It failed to do so, instead, HTML5 and iOS did that.

Re:MS hate

[jellomizer]

It is probably from a Linux user who thinks the Desktop still has a bright future too. Being that the desktop is the only Market where Microsoft Dominates, (Other markets Microsoft may lead, but with competition close behind where they can just run away with it), but in the rest of the industry Microsoft while a major player isn't as big as it use to be, and cannot survive with the Embrace, Extend, Extinguish anymore, they kinda need to play by the standards and do what the standards say.

Silverlight "developers" never really got a good market mindset, and I think only Netflix is the major app that used it. Sorry for the people who expected it to be the next big thing, life sucks bet get over it. HTML 5 seems to be the winner here, As you can code for different platforms.

Re:MS hate

[Shados]

Yup. Silverlight is just poorly marketed. When originally it was called WPF/E (WPF Everywhere), and .NET devs were begging for it, it was to be used for line of business applications and optimized for browser experience in a _somewhat_ cross platform manner.

This was in contrast with XBAP, which is pure WPF (the newer UI tech of .NET), which works in a browser sandbox but only on Windows, but isn't really designed from the ground up for it.

But then someone at Microsoft decided they wanted to take on Flash. The first version of Silverlight didn't have the .NET parts OR the line of business parts, they had to wait for Silverlight 2.0 for that...and even then, it kept being marketed as a Flash killer (not even a Flex killer, which it was much closer to).

Marketing killed WPF/E, nothing else. Silverlight IS the right tool for the job it was meant to do...just not for the one it was marketing for.

Re:MS hate

[Kamiza Ikioi]

How is this an example of "damned if they do, damned if they don't"? Microsoft made Silverlight, pushed a lot of sites to use it at the displeasure of many (Netflix), now they are dropping support?

This is rather an example of MS making crap, MS pushing crap, and MS not being able to support their own crap, but still wanting everyone to use it. That's not damned if you do or don't, that's just everyone saying "It sucks, stop pushing it when you can't even use it."

I.E. - Windows Vista

Re:MS hate

[denis-The-menace]

Actually, there is no hate.

It's more of a Ha-Ha http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX7wtNOkuHo to the developers that dared to try to make $ on a MS technology.

Almost every company that has worked with MS has gotten stabbed in the back.

Re:MS hate

[Tetsujin]

Almost every company that has worked with MS has gotten stabbed in the back.

Look on the bright side. At least you get to keep the knife.

Re:MS hate

[GameboyRMH]

If Microsoft is really turning a new leaf and ditching their proprietary crap for standard open tech, then that's a good thing.

But it's going to take a lot more good to get people to stop assuming the worst from them after decades of terrible behavior.

Re:MS hate

[Fjandr]

Captive audience for PC users. It made their service worse, an I stopped using it on a PC unless I had no other choice.

I will rejoice when Silverlight dies the death it deserves.

Re:MS hate

[dskzero]

I honestly expected something slightly interesting, but seeing TFA stealthly bashing .NET I decided this wasn't worth my time, and instead, I typed a complain here.

Re:MS hate

[obarthelemy]

I think the issue is not them dropping Silverlight per se, but them selling Silverlight to partners like the best thing since sliced bread for a few years, and then dropping it like hot potatoes when management at last realized that nobody wants Yet Another Plugin (tm), especially one that does not much but duplicate pre-existing plugins, only with an MS badge and less multiplatform support.

Nobody ever really needed a competitor to Flash. We needed Flash to get better, and/or vanish. Not Flash Jr.

Re:MS hate

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd rather bash you, faggot. Go die somewhere.

Re:MS hate

[Un pobre guey]

Investing in MS technologies has always been foolhardy. This is just one more episode in a long history of them pulling the rug from beneath their customers' feet in order to make them buy yet another full line of "new" software development tools. It has happened before, it will happen again. It's a suckers' game, and it's baffling how so many people fall into it again and again, especially in the presence of a large, diverse and stable palette of FOSS development tools that evolve in a generally orderly and predictable fashion. Has this ever happened to Perl, Python, PHP, or Ruby developers?.

Re:MS hate

[Eponymous Coward]

Microsoft isn't afraid to move on when they need to. There are still a lot of people who rely on VB6. I bet there were a lot more VB6 developers when they dumped it for .Net than there are Silverlight developers today. I think it's pretty clear that HTML5 is much more important to the tech sector than Silverlight and it would be silly for them not to fully embrace HTML5.

Now they need to get rid of their XPS document format and use HTML5 or at least PDF.

Re:MS hate

[obarthelemy]

sorry, missed a cut and paste.

All that why not really, frankly, appraising developpers of what the outlook for Silverlight is.

Re:MS hate

[Lennie]

DRM is exactly what Microsoft said Siliverlight should be used for on the (public) web.

Re:MS hate

[Eponymous Coward]

They left out a couple of pretty big operating systems: iOS and Android. This is weird considering they listed Symbian and Windows Mobile. The real percentage is going to be significantly less than that. But for the sake of argument, pretend it's accurate. That means that it isn't on 25% of internet browsers.

If you are building for the web, that's a huge number to ignore. Especially when there are competitive technologies available with far better numbers. Why would you chose Silverlight for anything but the intranet?

Re:MS hate

[Anonymous Coward]

I've installed Silverlight on a couple home PCs -only- for the purpose of streaming Netflix. Does that really make it worth counting my machines in the user base? I'd drop it in a second if Netflix worked without it.

Re:MS hate

[tooyoung]

+4 Funny - nice. This comment would have been a lot funnier if it wasn't your fifth post in the past week where you brought up the Microsoft/Apple "bailout". Kind of a weird axe to grind if you ask me.

Re:MS hate

[Riceballsan]

Does html5 have any capabilities that would allow obnoxious DRM to be placed on videos sent through it is what I wonder. Netflix rejected flash mainly for that reason, as much as I hate the technology, I do acknowledge that netflix has to deal with the devil to get anything done, and the devil won't let them do anything without DRM.

Re:MS hate

[nschubach]

And I keep removing it after my workplace keeps installing it! I'm going to have to do what I did with the policies and create a restricted folder with the same name to cause it to error out on install.

Re:MS hate

[node 3]

How is this an example of "damned if they do, damned if they don't"? Microsoft made Silverlight, pushed a lot of sites to use it at the displeasure of many (Netflix), now they are dropping support?

MS uses Silverlight, the nerds rage. MS stops using Silverlight, the nerds rage.

Re:MS hate

[Anonymous Coward]

So your argument is that Silverlight is not a juicy target to exploit because it doesn't have a large user base, by listing a bunch of things that don't use Silverlight. By that argument, since none of those things run Windows, then no one would be exploiting Windows.

Your argument is like saying "No one speaks chinese. There are lots of people who speak English, Spanish, German,...".

You can't say there is a small user base of Silverlight users just by listing a bunch of other devices that don't use Silverlight. Flawed logic.

Re:MS hate

[Anonymous Coward]

Only reason I can muster the bad-mouthing of Silverlight because its certainty is THAT of unknown. Between some of the steps Microsoft has taken where Silverlight was an option for use, but either brushed aside or not used, this leaves doubt as to its future despite its functionality and developer backing.

When there's nothing to from MS to fill the vaccuum, with regard to Silverlight, people will starting filling the void with whatever seems possible, even unreasonable. In this case, MS bashing and uncertainty.

Re:MS hate

[node 3]

Actually, there is no hate.

Against MS?

It's more of a Ha-Ha to the developers that dared to try to make $ on a MS technology.

A "Ha-Ha" motivated by hatred towards MS.

Almost every company that has worked with MS has gotten stabbed in the back.

More MS hate.

and your sig

Microsoft: Making "just good enough" products to keep people from using "Good" or "Great" products since 95'

More MS hate.

Re:MS hate

[MightyYar]

You missed his point. Most users of Netflix are not on PCs. Hell, 30% are on Playstation alone.

Re:MS hate

[MightyYar]

He probably just found out about it.

Re:MS hate

[node 3]

It's good for the public and the browser makers.

But nowhere do you see people focusing on this. The wording of this story, like almost any story on Slashdot about MS or Apple, is pure trolling.

But damned annoying for the developers who believed the Silverlight evangelists preaching about how it was going to kill Flash.

Anyone who believed that deserves what they get.

It's also a bit irritating for those who invested time building Silverlight chart engines and other rich controls for reporting tools.

And the same here.

But none of that detracts from the general idea that the less requirements for the use of Silverlight (and Flash) on the web in favor of HTML5, the better.

Re:MS hate

[praxis]

I haven't seen a single non-Microsoft site that used Silverlight.

Have you seen netflix.com's streaming site?

Re:MS hate

[Anonymous Coward]

"Nobody installed or uses". Except Netflix users.

Re:MS hate

[debrain]

Hell, I remember going through the same thing after putting a bunch of time into learning Borland OWL, back when it was competing with Microsoft's MFC. I was too evangelical myself at the time to see what was going to happen and I paid for it.

In fairness, people still fondly remember Borland OWL, and their charming yellow-on-blue IDE, failure though OWL may have been. My memories of MFC give me haunting chills.

Re:MS hate

[rtfa-troll]

MS embracing open standards and specs is a good thing.

Microsoft knows fine well that Microsoft always has three Es in embrace. They are not coming over to HTML 5 for the good of the standard of to help save the world. They are doing it in order to have developer tools which work on HTML 5 and so limit their loss of market share. Their long term aim will be to destabilize and misappropriate the standard. There is nothing good about Microsoft getting involved in any standard. Look at the history of OOXML. Look at how they attempted to take over Kerberos.

This is not a sign that Microsoft has become good. It is a sign that they are too weak to force Silverlight on the world and they realise that now, so they will work with the standard for the time being.

Re:MS hate

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you noticed Silverlight hasn't even had the same security concerns and exploits as Flash?

You have to be fair; noone will exploit a plugin nobody has installed or uses.

True, we all better be careful. That damn Noone will surely exploit it.

Re:MS hate

[The Dawn Of Time]

Yeah, it's terrible how Netflix just works but it's inconvenient to copy the streams for "sharing" or whatever the cool word is these days.

Free my entertainment!

Re:MS hate

[node 3]

The $150 million "bailout" (by buying stock and promising to continue selling a very profitable product, in exchange for cross-licensing and an end to a long-running lawsuit) of a company that had billions of dollars *in cash*? That "bailout"?

Go troll somewhere else.

Re:MS hate

[grub]

Our AppleTV, iPad and 2x iPhones run Silverlight?

Re:MS hate

[Richard_at_work]

This is rather an example of MS making crap, MS pushing crap, and MS not being able to support their own crap, but still wanting everyone to use it. That's not damned if you do or don't, that's just everyone saying "It sucks, stop pushing it when you can't even use it."

Thanks, you just perfectly explained why they are damned either way - your example is everyones original stance on Silverlight, and the summaries stance seals it on the other end.

Re:MS hate

[Billly Gates]

"In fact at this point, heavily investing in any MS-technologies without hedging (such as DirectX while the rest of the mobile world is OpenGLES 2.x) is just daft."

Have you worked in I.T. in a corporate level (I am taking +1,000 employees)? I am not insinuating you have not or implying anything, but there is huge pressure to lower costs and reduce the amount of platforms and software. If you are a bank for example and buy out several other companies and each company had 3 programs then you have 6 - 9 programs that all do the same thing!

So you need to pick one. Now imagine yourself 12 years in the past in a server room, with Novel Netware, Bryon Vines, Unixware, Solaris, VMS, OS/2 eComstation, and this new product called Windows NT Server, supporting WordPerfect, MS Word, Novel Groupwise, Lotus Notes, and Outlook for the 2,000 users. You need to upgrade all this to be Y2k compliant and which platform will you chose? Which standard?

Corporate America chose Microsoft. They are a monopoly and it is important to use whatever everyone else is using. That same server room I was in 12 years ago is an all MS shop today. These same shops use silverlight and .NET are the same shops do not want to go back to Unix and OpenGL. It was a smart move to support one company, one standard, one way of doing things and having IT trained in just one company.

However, thankfully the internet and HTML 5 is freeing us of this, but causing chaos and headaches from these same companies. Add to tablets, phones, and IPads and it makes sense. Silverlight and other MS technologies will be a round for a very long long time, much like IBM mainframe software being run today in emulators from 30 years ago. If I had a time machine and could go 20 years into the future I would bet you IE 6 will still be run in emulator terminals running these old win32 intranet apps.

These users should be outraged, and expect support. The whole reason for using it was a hedge agaisn't using something that would go out of business or become obsolete or irrelevant. MS is a good bet to make as it sets the standards for corporate America. ... it is a different world than playing around at home or in a small business.

Re:MS hate

[dhavleak]

Microsoft made Silverlight, pushed a lot of sites to use it at the displeasure of many (Netflix), now they are dropping support?

1. How did Microsoft "push" Netflix?
2. When did Microsoft "drop support" for Silverlight?

Re:MS hate

[pandrijeczko]

We've had this discussion before and I'm not going down that path with you again.

However:

$1 billion revenue != $1 billion profit.

Re:MS hate

[The Dawn Of Time]

Take the pointless rage away and all nerds have left is silly obsessions and bad hygiene. That's not enough to fill a life.

Re:MS hate

[daemonhunter]

Microsoft isn't afraid to move on when they need to.

Ha ha hahahahahahaha ha ha ha. IE6. Ha.

(Sure, blame it on the corporations with their custom built software, and the grandmas who don't know to update. MS could have forced the issue at any time. Genuine Advantage, anyone?)

Re:MS hate

[Anonymous Coward]

What are you a Microsoftie?

I am a professional developer who has spent a lot of time with SilverLight and I don't like being thrown under a bus.

Also, HTML5, a standard? Have you ever written a web page? It's about as loose as you can get so how do you expect HTML5 to be any better than the previous versions concerning this...

Oh, I'm in the process of learning the nuances of HTML5. Why? Because, like Ruby, every employer thinks that they have to have HTML5 and Ruby experts on hand. That’s the good ole 'yellow' tech press for you. Oh! Lookie here, this has 110 more bells and whistles that most developers will NEVER use than the previous version! You are a technological dinosaur if you don't jump on the bus! Just be careful; someone might throw you under it.

What a bunch of bull $#!%.

Re:MS hate

[tooyoung]

I just enjoy repeating that point over and over again because it always winds up the fanbois and one always bites - I believe the term is "shooting fish in a bucket".

Isn't the term "trolling"?

Re:MS hate

[athmanb]

When Silverlight 1 came out in 2007, there were three competitors for it:
- ActiveX which was a horrible 90s idea and is unable to function in a world where you can't trust people not to try to build exploits
- Java which was so bad at doing what it was supposed to do that it went from almost 100% market share to almost 0% with the rise of Flash.
- Flash which did the job it was supposed to do but had horrible development tools and literally hundreds of security problems since then due to shoddy product quality

Microsoft created Silverlight to solve these shortcomings and they did a pretty good job at it. Programming web code in Visual Studio is a leaps better than Flash and the Netflix probably saved millions by not wasting their developers' time with the horrible Flash UI and code oddities.

Only now, four years later, is HTML5 beginning to come to a point where it can be a proper tool to do what you used to use one of the above plugins for.

And by the way, IT changes fast in general, no developer can honestly expect to code in the same language from college to retirement. HTML5 - and the languages that you actually write code in like JQuery - are in an extreme prototype state right now, going to change radically several times in the next years before people figure out that they completely screwed up some important paradigms and start parts of the standard from scratch for HTML6. Everyone will have to keep relearning their languages if they want to stay current.

Re:MS hate

[Anonymous Coward]

So Microsoft starts using standards compliant HTML5 instead of Silverlight on their sites and you bash them for it? Seriously?

Newtonian physics. Every action (from Microsoft) has an equal reaction (from Slashdot).

This is a good thing from Microsoft, not bad. Stop bashing them for everything they do, even if its a good thing.

Yes it is, but, two decades of history teach us sadly, that microsoft rarly does something that's good, the best they can do is doing not-so-evil or not-obviously-evil. They evolved, and they have a plan(tm).

Re:MS hate

[Un pobre guey]

It was a smart move to support one company, one standard, one way of doing things and having IT trained in just one company.

Your own experience shows that this is not so. It seemed like a good decision for all the reasons you mention, but the unixoid world was the one that remained stable and predictable while still experiencing enormous growth. Excluding consumer PCs, unixoid platforms hold by far the lion's share of heavy industrial computing across the board, not Microsoft. You bet wrong because decision makers were duped by fancy ads and wildly optimistic marketing. It is still a foolhardy bet to stake your company's future on the whims and fickleness of Microsoft, which has a vested interest in switching things out on you as frequently as possible in order to maintain their revenue stream.

I congratulate MS on (apparently) switching to an open standard, but I never touch their products if I can avoid it. I do not have any sort of vocation to reinvent the wheel every time they feel the need to drum up some extra cash.

Re:MS hate

[node 3]

Um, no. I'm talking about actual liquid assets and liquid investments. Apple had actual billions of dollars that they could spend at that time.

The $150 million had very little impact on Apple and wasn't even *remotely* akin to a "bailout". It was a settlement agreement to end a long-standing lawsuit.

Re:MS hate

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you noticed Silverlight hasn't even had the same security concerns and exploits as Flash?

You have to be fair; noone will exploit a plugin nobody has installed or uses.

This is dead bang accurate. Re why people believed that Macintosh machines were somehow magically impervious to viruses and could not be affected/have security exploits. It had nothing to do with Apple being security gods, and a lot more to do with the fact that there was absolutely no profit in exploiting that userbase.

I honestly don't know what all sites I've used that use Silverlight because as a .NET developer myself I already had it installed as part of my IDE. There WERE some popular events (Obama's inauguration web coverage on NBC was largely done in silverlight) that probably drove some user install base, but I still can't imagine it compares to flash at all. Why bother developing exploits that target a significantly lower percentage of users?

Re:MS hate

[felipekk]

Not using on one of their websites != Dropping support.

Yes, it is an indication that the future for Silverlight technology doesn't look so bright, but that is the current reality of the IT industry. Technologies are changing very fast and what seems a safe bet today might be a total miss tomorrow. For once we should stop bashing MS with whatever (madeup) argument we have and actually see that they are changing: MS is now able to move faster than it used to be. Although they still might not be as agile as the market requires, they are not as "monolithic" as in the past.

Re:MS hate

[Anonymous Coward]

No I haven't; just like the rest of the world that isn't the US. You have to keep in mind that Netflix is merely some local site.

Re:MS hate

[BeanThere]

What's happened is a bunch of developers who adopted and pushed Silverlight are annoyed and bitter because they made the bad choice of picking a proprietary, relatively obscure (compared to e.g. Flash) and not-widely-used platform, while ignoring the obvious risks in doing so, and now want Microsoft to keep funding an obsolete platform that is going nowhere so they can save face and tell their customers they made the right choice. If it is true that MS is adopting Silverlight (I'm not convinced it is, but I'm guessing MS is "seriously thinking about it"), then I would guess it's because there are valid reasons for MS to drop it - i.e. they would be sinking more money into a platform that has no future if they continue. Why should Microsoft sink more money into a platform that has no future anyway?

Re:MS hate

[BeanThere]

Actually this time I would say it's not really "slashdot" whining, just a small but loud minority of developers who backed Silverlight. Most of the rest of us don't care, though I do feel like saying "I told you to so" to some annoying pro-Microsoft developers I worked with who used to try push Silverlight down our throats almost religiously.

Re:MS hate

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't always get what you want. IBM wanted OS/2 to compete with windows. They didn't. Linux wanted to win the desktop from microsoft. They really haven't (yet). Everyone else wants to win Supercomputing back from Linux (or at least the 91.55% share of the worlds top500 supercomputers that Linux currently enjoys). So far they haven't. microsoft would like their phone7 to win against Linux in the smart phone market. They haven't (Android is a version of Linux for smart phones), and there is more Android out there, than iphones. WindowsPhone7 is in 5th place and dropping. The HDDVD people wanted to win over BluRay. They didn't. Betamax was better technology than VHS, but proprietary licensing killed it. Likewise, the microchannel bus losing out to the ISA bus.

Re:MS hate

[gbjbaanb]

Has this ever happened to Perl, Python, PHP, or Ruby developers?.

YES!

Microsoft dropped support for both IronRuby and IronPython.

oh wait, that's not what you meant is it....

Re:MS hate

[SpryGuy]

Microsoft has been trying to push people off of IE6 for years now. Sure, they're not somehow pulling the plug on them (how exactly would they do that?) but they've been at the forefront of pushind web developers to drop support for IE6 and encourage any IE6 users they detect to upgrade/update their browser. So your comment is sort of out of place and unwarranted.

Re:MS hate

[SpryGuy]

One would have to ask why you bother going through all that effort? How is it harmful to have Silverlight on your system? It isn't. In fact, it's pretty lightweight, installs very quickly (either via Windows update or via a link that anyone can click), doesn't gum up or muck up a system or use resources when not in use...

Seriously, your efforts seem rather irrational to me. What exactly is the point?

Re:MS hate

[Eponymous Coward]

Being unafraid to move on when they need to doesn't imply that they always move on when they should.

Plus one could argue that IE6 was critical to far, far more people than Silverlight currently is. If they wanted to kill Silverlight or relegate it to just mobile development, they could do so and it would only be disruptive to a pretty small segment.

Re:MS hate

[SpryGuy]

Not really. Sites can "fall back" to a different presentation if Silverlight isn't there, or simply put up a screen that says "click here to install Silverlight" and provide the link (at least on all platforms where silverlight is available, which is most of them save iOS and Android, and it should certainly be possible and feasable to provide it on the latter eventually, if MS wanted to). The download and install takes seconds, and it's completely unobtrusive. I'm not sure what all the hubub is about, to be honest. It's not like everyone is bending over to eliminate Flash support just because iOS can't do it. I can't count the number of pages my iPhone simply can't render or interact with due to Flash support. If sites don't care about that, why would they care about Silverlight?

Re:MS hate

[SpryGuy]

I see no evidence at all that they are "dropping support" for Silverlight. Do you?

Because rewriting SkyDrive to use HTML5 sure isn't it.

Re:MS hate

[RobDude]

Silverlight *doesn't* suck.

It's actually pretty awesome. The biggest complaints I've heard about Silverlight is that doesn't run on everything (but neither does Flash) and it doesn't have a big enough install base (but that's the same with HTML5).

Flash isn't so awesome, in a lot of ways. But it gets the job done. And it was around when there wasn't much else to pick from. It is popular. It was also buggy and insecure, but it become the dominate force. Flash isn't 'open' and it doesn't run everywhere (just like Silverlight).

When Silverlight was introduced and in it's early years, there was no HTML 5. Microsoft didn't create HTML5. Remove HTML5 from the equation and you are left with Flash Vs. Silverlight Vs. Java Applets. I'd pick Silverlight, even if it goes less places than Java Applets.

But HTML5 is gaining support. A lot of big names are on board. It's generally recognized as the 'future'. But the future isn't here. HTML5 isn't even finalized, support on the PC is pretty good assuming you've got the latest and greatest browser. But if you don't (how many people still run IE6?) or if you have a portable device odds are you don't have HTML5 support. And, HTML5 brings back a lot of problems that Silverlight, Flash, and Java attempted to solve. If a browser doesn't implement HTML5 correctly, you can see different behavior in different browsers. Even it is considered a 'bug', it's a possibility. A lot of browsers don't have FULL HTML5 support, which is, again, a problem. Things like 'I want to play this video' is a difficult task in HTML5. Different formats are supported by different browsers.

Also, maybe I'm biased, but I like the benefits a compiler gives me. I also feel like JavaScript sure makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot.

Still, don't think MS didn't want Silverlight to become the next big thing. Also, I'm quite sure any Silverlight application you've written will continue to work for the foreseeable future. I really believe that if you've created some compelling content worth seeing, users will click on the 'Install Silverlight' button. It's pretty effortless. Certainly less effort than getting your user to upgrade to a new web browser.

I understand the frustration Silverlight developers might feel, knowing that the web is going in the direction of HTML5. But that is beyond MS's control. It's probably the exact same feeling Flash developers are going through. But I can't fault MS for adopting HTML5 for a new website they are making. I don't see how that is 'stabbing' someone in the back. I've written some things in Silverlight and I never paid a single penny to do it. I think it's pretty ridiculous the level of entitlement some people have.

"Hey - here is this cool thing we spent years developing. You can use it. It's free. Also, here is some software that also took years to develop that you can use to create things for that first thing we were talking about. It's also free. And here are all sorts of examples and documentation we put together. It's yours - free! You can use it, or not, it's up to you."

Five years later....

"OMG! What a bunch of jerks. First they BEGGED ME to write apps in Silverlight. Now, some new technology is in the spotlight and my existing code works exactly like it always has but BOY AM I ANGRY! Microsoft Sucks!"

Re:MS hate

[MemoryDragon]

Hehe the perfect example on forcing a shitcode down their developers throats was visual sourcesafe. They basically dumped this garbage onto every Microsoft developer in existence, while they themselves used a perforce fork.

Re:MS hate

[Xymor]

Who's raging is the idiots who put their money on Silverlight/.net. The nerds are watching star wars in telnet.

Re:MS hate

[QuantumFlux]

And by the way, IT changes fast in general, no developer can honestly expect to code in the same language from college to retirement.

You've obviously never worked in the scientific community -- where Fortran 77 is still going strong, some three+ decades later.

Re:MS hate

[tayhimself]

And by the way, IT changes fast in general, no developer can honestly expect to code in the same language from college to retirement. HTML5 - and the languages that you actually write code in like JQuery - are in an extreme prototype state right now, going to change radically several times in the next years before people figure out that they completely screwed up some important paradigms and start parts of the standard from scratch for HTML6. Everyone will have to keep relearning their languages if they want to stay current.

WTF, jquery is not in prototype stage. Prototype is another javascript framework ;).

Re:MS hate

[citylivin]

pff I guess you forget history then. Apple was going down the tubes at the time. Their OS was buggy, the computers ran on dated power pc chips which simply couldnt compete, and pretty much everyone who wasnt a graphics designer did not want to use a mac. It looked very much like apple would die, and then microsoft came in and gave them all that money. A few years later the ipod and OSX was born, and they went to intel chips as well.

I remember the articles at the time. I remember thinking that microsoft was throwing a bone to apple, so that they wouldn't be considered a monopoly. Not sure if you were in the industry at that time, but it was a common perception. And a correct one. Apple would have surely died if not for microsoft cash in their hour of need. They were in a death spiral in the late 90s, written off and left for dead by all but the most rabid macophiles. The computer wars were over and PC's won.

Not to say that similar to not taking all your antibiotics, the disease came back hard with the iphone and such. But I can't imagine anyone denying that it looked very bleak for a while for them.

Re:MS hate

[serutan]

Bing uses Hadoop? Wow, that's kind of funny. Reminds me of when Hotmail ran on Apache, which it still might be doing for all I know.

Re:MS hate

[pandrijeczko]

It's even more basic than that.

For as long as Microsoft has existed, Apple has put themselves in competition with Microsoft because their target demographic are people who, for whatever legitimate or silly reason, do not want to use Microsoft products.

In 1997, Microsoft was going through all the monopoly investigations and, clearly, it was in Microsoft's interest to demonstrate that there were competing products to their own. Therefore they pumped money into Apple to ensure they appeared to be viable competition.

But on the basis that Microsoft and Apple were mutually-exclusive to each other, then it would have been in Apple's best interests for its own expansion to see Microsoft reigned in as a monopoly - which would have meant not taking the $150 million in the first place.

The fact that Apple *DID* take the money suggests that they needed it very badly, and that in turn suggests that they took that money because of cashflow problems.

If you read the balance sheets of Apple in 1997, they talk about $1.2 billion in income but how much of that was used up in outgoings or used to cover losses elsewhere in the company is not clear.

Re:MS hate

[node 3]

pff I guess you forget history then. Apple was going down the tubes at the time. Their OS was buggy, the computers ran on dated power pc chips which simply couldnt compete, and pretty much everyone who wasnt a graphics designer did not want to use a mac. It looked very much like apple would die, and then microsoft came in and gave them all that money. A few years later the ipod and OSX was born, and they went to intel chips as well.

None of which depended on that relative pittance.

I remember the articles at the time. I remember thinking that microsoft was throwing a bone to apple, so that they wouldn't be considered a monopoly. Not sure if you were in the industry at that time, but it was a common perception. And a correct one. Apple would have surely died if not for microsoft cash in their hour of need.

How so? Apple had actual BILLIONS of dollars in CASH. You and the idiot who started this subthread seems to think this was MS floating Apple a loan so they could pay their bills.

Had this $150 million never been paid (it was actually a purchase of stock, which is not the same thing), Apple would have done just fine.

They were in a death spiral in the late 90s, written off and left for dead by all but the most rabid macophiles. The computer wars were over and PC's won.

Not to say that similar to not taking all your antibiotics, the disease came back hard with the iphone and such. But I can't imagine anyone denying that it looked very bleak for a while for them.

No one said it wasn't bleak. Just that the idea MS "bailed out" Apple is utter nonsense.

Re:MS hate

[Dwonis]

No kidding! It's not like we don't have a huge supply of real things to complain about Microsoft doing.

Re:MS hate

[node 3]

The fact that Apple *DID* take the money suggests that they needed it very badly, and that in turn suggests that they took that money because of cashflow problems.

How does it suggest any such thing? It wasn't a GIFT. It was a part of a settlement to end a long running lawsuit. It was a PURCHASE of AAPL stock by MS, in a deal which had both sides making agreements in exchange with each other.

Apple had BILLIONS of dollars IN CASH the day the deal between Apple and MS was settled. They were not in imminent danger of going under. Apple had enough money to coast for YEARS. $150 million never made an impact on this.

If you read the balance sheets of Apple in 1997, they talk about $1.2 billion in income but how much of that was used up in outgoings or used to cover losses elsewhere in the company is not clear.

Exactly. You are, as usual, posting from pure ignorance. Apple had BILLIONS of dollars. You are acting like Apple needed this money. They didn't.

What they needed was to stop warring with MS and to start making great products again, which is exactly what they did. If you think Apple wouldn't have been able to exist long enough to make Mac OS X, iMacs, MacBooks, iPods, iPhones, and iPads, were it not for the $150 million dollar purchase of AAPL that MS made, you're a fool.

Re:MS hate

[SanityInAnarchy]

MS uses Silverlight, the nerds rage. MS stops using Silverlight, the nerds rage.

The correct approach would have been to either never start with Silverlight, or make it an actually open standard to begin with -- I still can't watch Netflix on Moonlight. When someone's beating you with a stick, and they stop, you don't thank them for stopping, do you?

To be fair, though, I wasn't going to bash them for it. I wasn't likely to praise them much, more like "Hey, they're finally doing something right! Shock!" But on this thread already, it seems like we're seeing at least as many pre-emptive strikes against the bashing as we are actual bashing.

Re:MS hate

[node 3]

The only thing I really disagree with is the "pre-emptive" part. The summary at the top of the page bashes MS.

Re:MS hate

[pandrijeczko]

It wasn't a GIFT.

Exactly right. Because had it been a gift then Microsoft would have been in court for passing out bribes and essentially proven themselves to be a monopoly.

Apple had BILLIONS of dollars IN CASH the day the deal between Apple and MS was settled.

Evidence, please, because Apple's own balance sheet for that year does not show that.

You are, as usual, posting from pure ignorance. Apple had BILLIONS of dollars. You are acting like Apple needed this money. They didn't.

As above, I wait for your proof of my ignorance.

What they needed was to stop warring with MS and to start making great products again, which is exactly what they did. If you think Apple wouldn't have been able to exist long enough to make Mac OS X, iMacs, MacBooks, iPods, iPhones, and iPads, were it not for the $150 million dollar purchase of AAPL that MS made, you're a fool.

I am not an economist, I would not want to try to extrapolate "what might have been" without the bailout. Besides which, it is irrelevant to my core point that states that at that moment in time, Apple were not doing Microsoft a favour, they needed the money.

Re:MS hate

[Anonymous Coward]

... you can't bash someone without being a homophobic bigot? Really?

Re:MS hate

[Johnny O]

This is rather an example of MS making crap, MS pushing crap, and MS not being able to support their own crap, but still wanting everyone to use it. That's not damned if you do or don't, that's just everyone saying "It sucks, stop pushing it when you can't even use it."

I.E. - Windows

Corrected spelling...

Re:MS hate

[Anonymous Coward]

>> The way Bing uses Hadoop is another example.

Bign doesn't use Hadoop.

Re:MS hate

[Anonymous Coward]

He said the "users on" not "users of"

with Netflix being the implied sort of users. Netflix operates on all those devices, although if I had to guess, I'd say the 360 probably uses Silverlight.

So... no. His argument is not like saying "no one speaks chinese. there are lots of ..." His argument is actually more like there are lots of chinese speakers, although there are a bunch of dialects.. and Microsoft has nothing to do with any of them but 1, little used dialect.

Re:MS hate

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Does html5 have any capabilities that would allow obnoxious DRM to be placed on videos sent through it is what I wonder.

It's just a video rental, who cares if it's DRM? The problem with DRM is when you pay for a permanent copy.

Re:MS hate

[Anonymous Coward]

And by the way, IT changes fast in general, no developer can honestly expect to code in the same language from college to retirement.

Except for maybe c/c++ coders.

Re:MS hate

[MHolmesIV]

You mean the same company that had a net loss of $800 million in 1996 and $1 billion in 1997, and their ~1.5 billion in cash was offset by current liabilities in excess $1.8 billion?

Having cash doesn't really mean anything when it belongs to someone else.

I do a similar thing, I pay for all my monthly goods with a credit card, and then pay the card off each month. If you take a snapshot of my bank account though, it looks like I have huge amounts of cash, when in reality, it's not really mine.

Looking at their financials, it looked like apple was pretty close to bankruptcy. Their shareholder equity was lower than their cash on hand, and about equal to their net loss for 1997. One more year at that rate and their equity would have been negative.

Re:MS hate

[im_thatoneguy]

Sometimes we bet on the wrong technology.

Not even really. Silverlight was (and is) an alternative to its contemporary competitors: Flash and Javascript.

It offered a superior offering. Now HTML 5, almost five years later is offering something new and advantageous in the form of native support on multiple platforms/form factors.

5 years is a long time in the tech world.

Re:MS hate

[node 3]

You're the idiot who keeps asserting that Apple was on the verge of financial collapse in 1997 without providing any evidence. You're the one who keeps stating that Apple needed the money. You're the one who keeps talking about Apple's "balance sheets". You have provided absolutely no proof whatsoever to back up your assertion.

From Apple's SEC filing for 1997:

The Company's consolidated financial position with respect to cash, cash equivalents, and short-term investments, net of notes payable to banks, decreased to $1,434 million as of September 26, 1997, from $1,559 million as of September 27, 1996.

You keep claiming that Apple needed the $150 million, without any evidence whatsoever. As usual, arguing from ignorance. At the time MS bought $150 million in AAPL stock, Apple had over $1 billion in cash. Actual spending money. If, for some reason, they actually needed $150 million, they had sufficient credit that they could have borrowed it.

Microsoft didn't bail Apple out. They settled a long standing lawsuit with Apple, that included claims of MS stealing code from Apple's QuickTime. How you can't understand how settlements works is astonishing.

Re:MS hate

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh....go baww somewhere else you liberal pansy. Calling somebody a faggot doesn't necessarily mean that they're homophobic. Go fuck yourself with a chainsaw.

Re:MS hate

[Anonymous Coward]

XBox 360s will support Silverlight. RiaStats.com rates Silverlight 4 at about 73% penetration and HTML5 at about 75%. That's not a very big margin.

Re:MS hate

[node 3]

Do please explain how a $150 million purchase of stock saved Apple.

What saved Apple was cutting their costs and selling things at a profit. Also, Apple's expenditures for 1997 included $384 million to purchase NeXT (which is ultimately what saved Apple). Their revenues were fine (well over a billion dollars per quarter). Their margins were fine. What wasn't fine was their expenditures.

These expenditures were manageable, which is exactly what Apple did to return to profitability.

They were *NEVER* at a point in the '90s where $150 million was all that stood between them and bankruptcy.

Re:MS hate

[MightyYar]

Have you noticed Silverlight hasn't even had the same security concerns and exploits as Flash?

You might as well say that Stalin was better than Hitler.

Oh, yeah... Godwinned that shit!

Re:MS hate

[hedpe2003]

Wheres an extra mod point when you need it?

Re:MS hate

[shutdown -p now]

There are many MS products - including new ones - that use Silverlight. A prominent recent example is Office Web.

Re:MS hate

[shutdown -p now]

Silverlight have always had simultaneous releases on Windows and OS X, so the only platform lagging behind in versions is Linux/Moonlight - and the number of users there is too small to be of any importance. On the other hand, iOS and.Android never had it to begin with.

Re:MS hate

[Anonymous Coward]

They did not have billions of cash lying around in 1997. On Aug 8 1997 their stock price was $6.70 or so ($325 today). Market cap today $299B so very hard to believe with a 'billions in cash' they only had a market value of approximately $5B (and keep in mind probably an inflated stock price due to fanboys, all of their hot product lines today, did not exist then)

Re:MS hate

[Javaman59]

I saw it coming - I skipped Silverlight entirely, and adopted HTML 5 in 2007. They laughed at me, but look who's laughing now!

Re:MS hate

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you noticed Silverlight hasn't even had the same security concerns and exploits as Flash?

You have to be fair; noone will exploit a plugin nobody has installed or uses.

Damn that Noone ! He's into everything.

Re:MS hate

[node 3]

They had ~$1.5 billion in cash. It's in their SEC filing for the year. They had many billions in revenues, they had healthy margins on their products. They also had a lot of write offs and purchases that year, including buying NeXT for over $300 million.

Apple did not need Microsoft's purchase of $150 million in stock. Had the purchase never happened, Apple would still be doing fine today.

That purchase of stock was part of a settlement between Apple and Microsoft, which included ending long-running litigation, cross-licensing of patents, MS committing to continue selling Office for Mac and Apple promising to bundle IE.

The only "fanboys" related to this story are the MS fanboys of today who fail at both math and history, and think MS was some sort of white knight.

What saved Apple was buying NeXT. That one purchase essentially solved all of Apple's pressing problems.

Re:MS hate

[a-yz]

It's Religion.

Don't request reason here, there is no room when it comes to religion. Same as creationists. There is fundamentally no difference when it comes to fundamentalism of this sort.

Re:MS hate

[Anonymous Coward]

Netflix is probably the only company using it which has any remotely considerable user base and quite frankly they aren't that big. Most people while they have heard of Netflix do not have service and even of those who do many don't watch using the computer.

Re:MS hate

[Eponymous Coward]

The hubub for me, is security. Every single plugin has bugs in it that give an attacker access to your computer. Something massive like Silverlight, Flash, or Java is going to have lots of bugs because companies like Microsoft, Adobe, and Oracle simply don't pay enough attention to code quality and secure design. Microsoft is especially bad at trading security for convenience.

The absence of iOS and Android is huge. These are the fastest growing platforms right now and this alone is driving down Silverlight's install rate.

I think by focusing on HTML5 and dropping Silverlight on the desktop (which they haven't done yet, but there is a lot of suspicion about this inside Microsoft as well) they could end up helping to unseat Flash. Microsoft is decent at tools and if they come up with a great HTML5 toolchain, Flash will start looking much, much less appealing. Especially since it runs so terribly on mobile devices.

Re:MS hate

[Thing 1]

Everyone will have to keep relearning their languages if they want to stay current.

Thank you for this Red Queen comparison. :) I think we'll also have to keep relearning our languages at a faster and faster pace, up to the Singularity...

Re:MS hate

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe you are too young to understand, but in 1997, Apple's continued existance was very far from certain no matter cash reserves (that it as bleeding) - a shitty OS, crap hardware, no vision for the future, stock diving into the ground, loyal customers abandoning the platform - the money MS paid was extremely big news that gave a lot of people confidence Apple would stay around and more to the point stay somewhat relavent. The bailout gave Apple breathing space to regroup, redesign and for the Jobs reality distortion field to take proper effect.

Yes, it saved their collective asses. Deal with it.

Re:MS hate

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah that's what I thought, Nancy Boy.

Re:MS hate

[Anonymous Coward]

Dropping support? Where did it say that? SL 5 is still in beta, can we wait until its released before we have the funeral... damn noobs.

Re:MS hate

[node 3]

Maybe you are too young to understand, but in 1997, Apple's continued existance was very far from certain no matter cash reserves (that it as bleeding) - a shitty OS, crap hardware, no vision for the future, stock diving into the ground, loyal customers abandoning the platform - the money MS paid was extremely big news that gave a lot of people confidence Apple would stay around and more to the point stay somewhat relavent.

The money itself was immaterial to Apple's existence.

The bailout gave Apple breathing space to regroup, redesign and for the Jobs reality distortion field to take proper effect.

No, it didn't. Apple had over a billion dollars in cash, and many billion in revenues. They could have paid MS 5x the amount MS invested in AAPL stock, and still survived just fine.

Yes, it saved their collective asses. Deal with it.

That would be a mathematical impossibility.

What saved Apple was buying NeXT, which gave them the OS they needed, and brought back Jobs who, with his team, righted the Apple ship. Why's this so difficult for you to understand?

Re:MS hate

[pandrijeczko]

"Consolidated financial position" = earnings != profit.

I win. Again.

Re:MS hate

[node 3]

Holy fuck you are stupid.

That's cash they have on hand. They never ran out of cash. The never got within $150 million of running out of cash. And even if they *did* run out of cash (which they didn't), they could have easily gotten a loan if *somehow* all they needed was $150 million to survive, which is your entire premise.

Do you even know how money works?

The only thing you "win" is Idiot of the Week. Congrats on that, you were in a bit of a dry spell there for a while.

Re:MS hate

[richlv]

i don't think it's nerds. more like silverlight designers and developers trolling slashdot, trying to keep their abomination alive.

oh, and the two developers for it as well.

Re:MS hate

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it didn't. Apple had over a billion dollars in cash, and many billion in revenues. They could have paid MS 5x the amount MS invested in AAPL stock, and still survived just fine

I've read this statement from you numerous time in this thread. Repeating the same thing over and over again will not make it any more true. I don't know if you're right or wrong, but if you want to prove your point, at least provide a link to credible source that backs up your statement.

Re:MS hate

[kikito]

That's not hate.

Hate is "I hope their children die suffering before their eyes!!".

You are too soft.

Re:MS hate

[node 3]

I already quoted their SEC filing from 1997:

The Company's consolidated financial position with respect to cash, cash equivalents, and short-term investments, net of notes payable to banks, decreased to $1,434 million as of September 26, 1997, from $1,559 million as of September 27, 1996.

It also shows that they had $6.9 billion in sales for 1997, and they spent $485 million in R&D for that year.

In other words, their R&D exceeded MS's purchase of Apple stock by over 3x. Apple was not out of cash. They did not need $150 million.

Re:MS hate

[SuperDre]

If you really think HTML5 is capable of completely replacing Silverlight for what's possible with Silverlight, then you really don't know what's possible with Silverlight.

Your comment in regards of HTML5 JQuery and extreme prototype is a very well put comment, people just jump on some hyped bandwagon which isn't even finalized yet..

Re:MS hate

[Anonymous Coward]

You anti-ms trolls are hilarious. Why do you think you are entitled to watch Netflix? If you want it so badly why don't you pay the development costs to netflix? Maybe if all you trolls on this site banded together and sent $100K or whatever to netflix to fund linux support maybe they'd consider it.

Re:MS hate

[iainl]

MS made Silverlight, which was proprietary, but did stuff that standard HTML couldn't. It was also less of a security disaster than Flash, and less hideous than Java.

Now there's a standards-compliant way of doing things with HTML5, they're using it. You might as well complain that it's possible to get somewhere on the Adobe website without having Flash installed. I'm sure MS still recommend using Silverlight if you have a task HTML5 can't perform.

Re:MS hate

[tehcyder]

Now they need to get rid of their XPS document format and use HTML5 or at least PDF.

No, definitely not fucking PDF, that format should be taken away and inumanely slaughtered, not encouraged.

Re:MS hate

[landswipe]

Apparently it cost around 150million to develop the first iPhone... In a strange irony, Microsoft funded it! hahaha

Re:MS hate

[AmiMoJo]

Microsoft has effectively pulled the plug on IE6 by winding down support for XP. Vista shipped with IE7 and XP is no longer available even to OEMs IIRC (it used to be available for netbooks but Windows 7 Starter replaced it).

Business customers with legacy systems are always used as an example of people who need IE6, but even they are now in a situation where they either have to support IE8 (Windows 7) or maintain their existing and ageing Windows XP machines (and block IE8 which is a critical update now).

It isn't the firm cut-off date people wanted but they have basically killed it.

Re:MS hate

[hairyfish]

Funny you say that. I've worked for a few companies that have made billions of dollars working with MS But don't let facts get in the way of your fundamentalist drivel.

Re:MS hate

[hairyfish]

Investing in MS technologies has always been foolhardy.

Well, except for all those many, many people that made millions of dollars out of investing in MS you mean?

Re:MS hate

[tehcyder]

It's just a video rental, who cares if it's DRM?

People who think paying a small rental amount entitles them to unlimited copies of the video to do what they want with. Obviously.

Re:MS hate

[tehcyder]

And I keep removing it after my workplace keeps installing it!

It's not up to you to decide what is or is not installed on your work computer.

Re:MS hate

[Anonymous Coward]

Who said anything about dropping support? They changed the UI of SyDrive to use HTML5 instead. Besides that they get hated on for silverlight instead of some standard, now they get hated on for using the standard instead of silverlight. How is this NOT a case of damned if they do, damned if they don't?

And Vista is an even stupider example, they get nerdraged at Vista and how it needs to get fixed, they fix it, and the nerdrage increases. Either make up your mind, or stop fucking whining.

Re:MS hate

[SanityInAnarchy]

Why do you think you are entitled to watch Netflix?

Why do you think I think I am?

The point isn't "boo hoo, I can't watch Netflix," it's that MS tries to claim Silverlight is an open standard, and they use Moonlight to back up that claim, yet the biggest reason people use Silverlight won't work on Moonlight.

If they'd been honest from the beginning, I'd have less to complain about, but then, there'd probably be less adoption.

Re:MS hate

[Anonymous Coward]

right, because the alternatives available when Silverlight was introduced were...

- Active-X
- Flash.
- Java*. (* = not opened up yet)

Now they're using an OPEN STANDARD to replace technology they introduced when said OPEN standard DIDN'T EXIST (in a useable for at least), and you're whining about vendor lock-in?

Your Skype example is just nonsense. Skype works, the infrastructure works, hy bother migrating/porting right away, and don;t forget that Hotmail ran on Solaris when it was acquired and stayed that way for a while. Eventually it came to run on Windows Server and MS SQL. I don't know where your Hadoop example comes from other than Tahoo! used to use Hadoop, until it became powered by Bing (not the other way around).

You're just looking for excuses to whine out of hatred, it'd be cute, if it weren't so pathetic and obvious.

Re:MS hate

[darkgrayknight]

Silverlight is on Windows Phone 7

Re:MS hate

[pandrijeczko]

Proof?

Re:MS hate

[MHolmesIV]

I wasn't explaining how a cash infusiuon of $150 million saved apple, I was explaining how their cash on hand was not a good indicator of the overall health of the company. In fact, with cash on hand higher than shareholder equity, there were probably a few sharks circling in the water. It would have made them a juicy takeover target.

Re:MS hate

[node 3]

I wasn't explaining how a cash infusiuon of $150 million saved apple, I was explaining how their cash on hand was not a good indicator of the overall health of the company. In fact, with cash on hand higher than shareholder equity, there were probably a few sharks circling in the water. It would have made them a juicy takeover target.

Except the point being discussed was whether MS "bailed out" Apple, not whether Apple was in trouble.

Re:MS hate

[node 3]

Proof? Their SEC filing for 2007! It shows they had ~$1.5 billion.

Where's YOUR PROOF that MS buying $150 million in stock saved Apple? You keep asking for proof, yet never provide a shred to back up your own claims. All you do is make absurd assertions and stick your fingers in your ears.

In order for your claim to be true, at some point Apple had to be within $150 million dollars of shutting down. They had billions in revenues for 2007, they had ~$1.5 billion in cash for 2007, they had made a purchase of NeXT for over $300 million, they spent over $450 million in R&D for the year. It most certainly wasn't their best year, but they had plenty of money and plenty of income which to spend on things they needed.

You wrote:

The fact that Apple *DID* take the money suggests that they needed it very badly, and that in turn suggests that they took that money because of cashflow problems.

You don't know how proof, evidence, business, law suits, negotiations, settlements, math, damn-near anything, works. Apple sold stock to MS? HOLY SHIT WHY WOULD A COMPANY DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT!?!?

It was part of a settlement of a lawsuit claiming MS stole code from Apple's QuickTime. Apple had about 10x the money, in cash, at the time the purchase of AAPL stock was made. A purchase in which one asset is exchanged for another.

Re:MS hate

[MightyYar]

There are still a lot of people who rely on VB6.

VB6 is the reason I get to laugh when someone suggests that we shouldn't depend on smaller vendors.

Re:MS hate

[Kamiza Ikioi]

1. They share a board member, if I remember correctly. They also did so to the ire of most users. Silverlight was initially not available on all platforms, such as linux. As a linux user myself, that meant the console I built for my TV no longer worked with Netflix. That support has been added, but is still not up to par (in my opinion) to Flash for in browser viewing. It was "pushed" because the it was NOT a user driven feature. In fact, the forums were filled with anger and hate. Whether it was DRM or not, MS pushed itself as a solution.

2. When they stop using it. A better term may have been to say that they stopped eating their own dog food. They don't support it in the sense of lending it credibility, not in terms of "customer support", but more in the sense of moral support. If Google employees stopped using Gmail and instead switched to Exchange, I'd consider that dropping internal support. They would no longer support Gmail as the best option, in that case.

Re:MS hate

[Kamiza Ikioi]

You've hit at the heart of a dilemma. Developer driven change versus consumer driven change. The problem I have is that almost nothing that uses Silverlight is a consumer driven change. While I don't like Apple, I can say that they are a consumer driven change, to the point of being nearly hostile to developers.

Somewhere in the middle is better. But the problem with Microsoft Silverlight is the same problem with Windows 8. It's just pissing more and more developers off, rather than solving their problems. Sure, it's great for the kid fresh out of college who doesn't know his asp (sic) from his elbow, but not for your average coder. Your average coder would be happy with maybe a 1:100 ratio of time spent learning new languages versus actually using them.

Just as they become... I was going to say comfortable, but rather... proficient, they have to change language again. But I think MS has found this to be a profit source. If they didn't continually kill a language, they'd have no way of extracting more money from already underpaid developers.

So, this is lose-lose regardless of whether it is consumer or developer driven change. HTML is an incremental change, btw. An HTML 1.0 document still works as written. (Notice that I'm not saying CSS, but HTML.) Incremental change is developer friendly. What MS does is not incremental. They continually smash the wheel to re-invent it. Windows 8 is their latest "screw developers, we need a new wheel!"

Re:MS hate

[DaVince21]

Which box looks more durable and future-proof, so that I may still make money off of it in a few years?

Re:MS hate

[MightyYar]

just enjoy repeating that point over and over again because it always winds up the fanbois and one always bites

Why would anyone care who invested in Apple over the years? Does that diminish the iPhone in some way?

Re:MS hate

[dhavleak]

They share a board member, if I remember correctly.

You remember wrong. Reed Hastings is the Netflix CEO (not board member -- big difference) -- and he serves on Microsoft's Board. In short he gets to pull Ballmer's strings, but not vice versa.

They also did so to the ire of most users. Silverlight was initially not available on all platforms, such as linux. As a linux user myself, that meant the console I built for my TV no longer worked with Netflix. That support has been added, but is still not up to par (in my opinion) to Flash for in browser viewing. It was "pushed" because the it was NOT a user driven feature. In fact, the forums were filled with anger and hate. Whether it was DRM or not, MS pushed itself as a solution.

Orthogonal issue + rambling. You claimed Microsoft *pushed* Netflix to use Silverlight. How?

When they stop using it. A better term may have been to say that they stopped eating their own dog food. They don't support it in the sense of lending it credibility, not in terms of "customer support", but more in the sense of moral support. If Google employees stopped using Gmail and instead switched to Exchange, I'd consider that dropping internal support. They would no longer support Gmail as the best option, in that case.

http://support.microsoft.com/gp/lifean45 In short, you'll hear about it from Microsoft when they decide to discontinue support. And when you hear about it, you'll have 1 year to act, from that point. And you'll have paid support options past that date if you choose to use it. Suggest you stop spreading disinformation.

Re:MS hate

[dave87656]

That's MS's version of security through obscurity.

Re:MS hate

[dave87656]

This is a good thing from Microsoft, not bad. Stop bashing them for everything they do, even if its a good thing.

True, but it's just not typical of Microsoft. I must say, though I'm a linux user, I think they've made great strides with SkyDrive. Cudos where Cudos are deserved and I think this time MS has done a nice job.

Re:MS hate

[Kamiza Ikioi]

In short he gets to pull Ballmer's strings, but not vice versa.

...

Orthogonal issue + rambling. You claimed Microsoft *pushed* Netflix to use Silverlight. How?

...

In short, you'll hear about it from Microsoft when they decide to discontinue support. And when you hear about it, you'll have 1 year to act, from that point. And you'll have paid support options past that date if you choose to use it. Suggest you stop spreading disinformation.

1. He pulls Ballmer's strings? Since when has anyone pulled Ballmer's strings? The CEO of Google was on Apple's board, did he pull Job's strings? If you think that, you are delusional.

2. Pushed, as in Microsoft had an inside man who had a conflict of interest. His "favor" was to MS over Adobe. The CEO made a choice that was against that of his customers (you can call it rambling, but when thousands of customers are simultaneously "rambling" it is usually a bad sign). The Netflix boards were filled with hate when this change came. But the CEO pulled the party line. He did so because, regardless of what happens with Netflix, the stock holders pull his strings at Microsoft (of which Gates, Ballmer, and others hold far more than him... which is why your strings analogy is completely wrong.) You aren't on the board of MS and a CEO at Netflix and say you're going to be impartial to your other master. Even an uneducated hobo understood the concept of not being able to serve two masters without screwing one of them over. The CEO of Google also understood this as well. Obviously, you do not.

2. You ignored, completely, the meaning of eat their own dog food. I pointed out, very clearly, that technical support is NOT (repeat: NOT) what I meant.

3. You can "suggest" all you want. You are the one that asked the questions. If you didn't want answers, then don't ask. And if you think you know the answers, present them.

Either way, makes no difference. You don't quite understand board/CEO relationships, since in this case the CEO is a figurehead + major stock holder, nor did you even bother to read what I meant by support.

What I said:

A better term may have been to say that they stopped eating their own dog food. They don't support it in the sense of lending it credibility, not in terms of "customer support", but more in the sense of moral support.

What you said in response:

http://support.microsoft.com/gp/lifean45 [microsoft.com] In short, you'll hear about it from Microsoft when they decide to discontinue support. And when you hear about it, you'll have 1 year to act, from that point. And you'll have paid support options past that date if you choose to use it. Suggest you stop spreading disinformation.

That makes you either ignorant, or a troll. I quite honestly would respect you more if it were the latter.

Re:MS hate

[dhavleak]

He pulls Ballmer's strings? Since when has anyone pulled Ballmer's strings? The CEO of Google was on Apple's board, did he pull Job's strings? If you think that, you are delusional.

October 2010 -- The Microsoft board of directors cut Ballmer's bonus in half citing his performance. Link.

Pushed, as in Microsoft had an inside man who had a conflict of interest

You're still not getting the way this relationship works. The conflict of interest goes the other way. Suggest looking up how board of directors renumeration works. Netflix CEO gains (and has a conflict) in coaxing MS Execs to move towards Netflix. Reason: MS integrating Netflix into services gets Netflix more income so Netflix CEO's stock value increases, bonuses increase, salary increases. Netflix CEO gains nil when coaxing Netflix to move to MS technologies. Prove that statement wrong, and you have a case. In your analogy, btw, you're suggesting that Jobs had influence over Google because of Eric Smith being on Apple's board. How did that even parse?

The CEO made a choice that was against that of his customers (you can call it rambling, but when thousands of customers are simultaneously "rambling" it is usually a bad sign.

That is truly an orthogonal issue. You said Microsoft 'pushed' Netflix. This is your evidence?

You ignored, completely, the meaning of eat their own dog food. I pointed out, very clearly, that technical support is NOT (repeat: NOT) what I meant.

1. Maybe you should look up the term dogfood -- it refers to internal betas. Nevermind -- that's splitting hairs. I get your larger point. 2. Maybe you shouldn't have used the word 'stopped supporting' in your previous post, and then watered-down your claim to 'stopped dogfooding'. 3. They stopped using it on one site. From this you conclude 'stopped using'? 4. Support lifecycle is infinitely more important than 'oh, MS stopped using SL on skydrive'. 5. If you're not prepared to defend your inflammatory posts, maybe you shouldn't make them in the first place, instead of watering down your claim and then claiming that I'm ignoring your content.

That makes you either ignorant, or a troll. I quite honestly would respect you more if it were the latter.

See your original post in this thread. Evaluate it for inflammatory content, factual correctness, etc. Then call me a troll. I'll merely say this -- if my responses sound terse, it's not because i'm trying to be rude or anything.. just at work with limited time..

Re:MS hate

[NuShrike]

True. I messed up there. The few mobile platforms that actually can run the MS stack for it.

Even Linux with Moonlight can't qualify because the DRM can't be ported in DRM-safe way.

Re:MS hate

[NuShrike]

Yes I have (for a large global entertainment company based in the USA), and now IT is just wallflowers relegated to autonomous functions like email or file-serving, while the rest of the real development and money-making is NOT MS software.

I'm also now in a large former-military-turned-consumer-electronics and again, all of MS tech is used mostly to run email and file-sharing while the rest of the real bread-winning is Linux.

But the point of this is shops investing heavily in .NET and Silverlight as their sole bread-winning strategy has NOTHING to do with your derivative IT tangent. After all going by your example, .NET and Silverlight is actually the new kid on the block and any conservative company wanting to pick cheap and consistent technology would pick industry-wide tech such as OpenGLES, Linux, Java, and C++. Going .NET and Silverlight is expensive NEW development and a conscious choice to wade into high-risk.

The big mobile tech now is iOS, and that's OpenGLES, ObjC/C/C++, you cannot avoid that. If you wanted to go Android, Java and OpenGLES again. So OpenGLES is the conservative and safe choice, unlike the way you've couched it as "old" tech to be avoided.

Best option

[Flyerman]

Sure, it's stabbing their "Developers! Developers! Developers!" in the back, but isn't it a positive that they moving to more widespread technologies?

Re:Best option

[DWMorse]

stabbing their "Developers! Developers! Developers!" in the back

They've simply updated their motto: "Die! Die! DIE!"

Re:Best option

[Stewie241]

It isn't stabbing anybody in the back until they drop support for the platform.

Responding to the market and building stuff that will work on the machines of your target market is called flexibility and responsiveness.

If you can deliver a better experience with HTML5, then it makes sense to do it. Developers might look at this move and get the sense that it may (though in some cases maybe not) be wise for them to follow suit - not because Microsoft is dropping the platform, but because you can get better results in HTML5.

Re:Best option

[GameboyRMH]

I'd say it's positive, and I can't feel bad for the developers who wasted time training themselves on MS-proprietary tech. The best possible outcome they could have had was to get a sub-par-paying programming job while being stuck on Microsoft's planned obsolescence treadmill.

Re:Best option

[GrumblyStuff]

It just makes me think they're up to something nefarious with HTML5. You know, embrace, extend, etc.?

Re:Best option

[RCGodward]

Indeed. Sometimes a better technology comes along. Let me toss you guys some top secret info... There will be another version of .NET, another version of Silverlight, and another version of WPF. Rest easy. It's not going anywhere.

Re:Best option

[Anonymous Coward]

That would've been a badass newsgroup: alt.developers.developers.developers.die.die.die

Re:Best option

[Jason Earl]

It isn't stabbing anybody in the back until they drop support for the platform.

I would bet that Silverlight developers that have invested time and energy into the platform feel differently. Unlike a Free Software platform Silverlight developers can not extend Silverlight on their own. If Microsoft fails to invest in the platform, then the platform will stagnate, and eventually it will die. Sure, existing Silverlight applications will still work (for a while anyway). However, no one in their right mind is going to start new Silverlight development at this point, and those people that did jump on the Silverlight bandwagon are probably going to have to port their applications to a new platform. Silverlight developers are going to have to update their skills (and their resume).

Re:Best option

[Pope]

I believe that's German for "The Developers, The."

Re:Best option

[tom229]

Finally a smart move on MS' part. Apple is backing HTML5, linux (of course) is backing HTML5. Finally MS has realized it's tougher to swim against the current. This is a new strategy evolved out of the simple realization that their stock price can't fall forever.

Re:Best option

[owlstead]

You call that resting easy? Because of Silverlight, I cannot see any live stream from many sites (e.g. Eurosport). Yes, I'm on Linux. No Linux is not supported, Moonlight for some reason never seems to be able to do streaming video, even though that is so far the only reason I've seen Silverlight being used *ever*. The faster it dies, the better.

Re:Best option

[geoskd]

Responding to the market and building stuff that will work on the machines of your target market is called flexibility and responsiveness.

It can also be referred to as "fickle". Business people don't like fickle, it is unreliable, and lends itself poorly to a business environment. Sooner or later MS will have exhausted the supply of suckers willing to spend time and money supporting MS bottom line when it doesn't really help anyone else. MS has a very poor track record of follow through, and they have a mixed record as far as new products are concerned. Customers are better off building for Apple, for whom everything turns to gold. Even Linux/GNU has the advantage that you will always be able to get support, and the documentation is in the public domain so you can support it yourself if absolutely necessary.

-=Geoskd

Re:Best option

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed. Sometimes a better technology comes along. Let me toss you guys some top secret info... There will be another version of .NET, another version of Silverlight, and another version of WPF. Rest easy. It's not going anywhere.

Who can rest easy? Microsoft has proven again and again that whatever these new versions are, they won't be compatible with the current versions. VB6 anyone? Or how about the DB interface of the day: RDO, ADO, DAO, OLE, M.O.U.S.E? Or how about the SOAP interfaces for MS-Office?

It's fun to write a program once. Not so much fun to make a career of it every time Microsoft breaks the back of whatever framework is was written on. As awful as Java can sometimes be, at least Sun understood backwards compatibility, even when it meant keeping the warts. Java code that compiled and ran in 2000 can generally still compile and run (sometimes with deprecation warnings) today. Enterprises like that. They have COBOL programs older than I am.

Re:Best option

[Anonymous Coward]

> Yes, I'm on Linux. No Linux is not supported,

Silverlight supports 99% of consumer desktops. If you intentionally pick one in the other 1%, fine, but don't complain when companies don't want to support your niche platform. It has to have enough market penetration before it is worth the cost/benefit to develop for it.

It was your choice to use a platform that doesn't support DRM. I won't say you're wrong, but you get to live with the consequences - not being able to play Silverlight streams.

Re:Best option

[shutdown -p now]

Silverlight is useful for intranet apps. On public web sites it - like Flash - should give way to a common standard.

Re:Best option

[Anonymous Coward]

You're closer to correct than any other comment I've seen here. The lastest leak of Windows 8 shows a graphical sub-system based on what appears to be a Silverlight / WPF hybrid. This same graphical sub-system can also host HTML5. See this link for more info:

http://davidburela.wordpress.com/2011/06/14/premature-cries-of-silverlight-wpf-skill-loss-windows-8-supports-all-programming-models/

From the horses mouth (so to speak) from blog articles of members of the Silverlight team, Silverlight will not be going anywhere. As they point out, Silverlight has had 4 full version cycles in less time it's taken for HTML5 to do half of its cycle.

And the aim of Silverlight is to be better than HTML5 at everything - except for platform independence. So if you want maximum reach, you would consider HTML5. And where you want the most power / specialized features, you would use Silverlight.

Re:Best option

[Stewie241]

Sure.

I mean, if you want people to develop for your platform, you need to protect the investment of your developers. They might forgive you once, but if it happens prematurely too many times they will start looking elsewhere.

I don't know if it is fair to say that MS has a very poor track record. DOS programs written in 1988 still likely work on PCs running Windows XP. In more recent years I would probably tend to agree with you though.

Re:Best option

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you really upset to see VB6 die? Really?

Objectivity

[AndOne]

Whatever happened to posting stories that aren't filled with FUD and hate? Maybe HTML5 is more standards compliant and more widely available on other things... like say... Mobile devices... Which are probably one of the places many people would want to access the 'cloud' from. Or perhaps silverlight is too heavy for the task of being a portal UI... Whatever happened to using the right tool for the right job?

Re:Objectivity

[Missing.Matter]

Since when has a story regarding MS not been filled with FUD and hate?

Re:Objectivity

[nschubach]

You are on a site who's name is modeled after a unix convention. This isn't backslashdot.org

Re:Objectivity

[Anonymous Coward]

Whoah, whoah, whoah. Did you get lost? This is Slashdot.

Re:Objectivity

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

You are on a site who's name is modeled after a unix convention. This isn't ccolonbackslashdot.org

FTFY

Re:Objectivity

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe HTML5 is more standards compliant

Just a little bit more. Maybe.

Re:Objectivity

[Tim C]

It isn't dotslash.org either.

Re:Objectivity

[Anonymous Coward]

You are on a site who's name is modeled after a unix convention. This isn't ccolonbackslashdot.org

FTFY

That's "whose name". FTFTFY.

Re:Objectivity

[Anonymous Coward]

Whatever happened to posting stories that aren't filled with FUD and hate?

Yur not from around these parts are ya?

Re:Objectivity

[nschubach]

Wow, totally missed that in my post. Thanks!

The obvious

[Anonymous Coward]

Man, they want it to be accessible from every device, inclusing those that don't support Silverlight. It's called "picking your fights". So yes, please stop bashing and get a life.

They don't

[geoffrobinson]

"How can Microsoft expect independent developers to base their future on Silverlight when Microsoft itself is abandoning it like a sinking ship?"

They don't expect people to base their future on Silverlight. Why would anyone think that at this point?

Re:They don't

[SmurfButcher Bob]

I'm trying to figure out what retard did NOT see Silverlight as anything but a flash in the pan. These must be the same retards that invested in the future of Microsoft Bob.

Seriously... "base their future"? On what was clearly a pony trick when it was announced, and moreso when released?

Re:They don't

[geoffrobinson]

"flash in the pan"

I see what you did there.

Re:They don't

[19061969]

Coming from a UX perspective, I've come across more than a handful of gigs where Silverlight experience was specified in the job description. Most of these seemed to be in finance (from what I could gather) and I still cannot for the life of me understand why they would invest resources into critical systems using this technology.

Re:They don't

[geoskd]

They don't expect people to base their future on Silverlight. Why would anyone think that at this point?

Because a few years ago, MS was selling Silverlight to anyone they could convince. They told everyone Silverlight was the future, and many developers were dumb enough to believe them.

What will be Microsoft's next Silverlight, and who will buy?

-=Geoskd

Re:They don't

[Dwonis]

Most of these seemed to be in finance (from what I could gather) and I still cannot for the life of me understand why they would invest resources into critical systems using this technology.

Because they're finance people, not tech people. Tech people would know better.

Re:They don't

[rrohbeck]

What will be Microsoft's next Silverlight, and who will buy?

.Net?
http://forums.silverlight.net/forums/p/230502/562113.aspx

As an end user, bravo!

[jaskelling]

I applaud this as an end user. The fewer idiotic plug-ins and crap I have to have installed, the better. As a programmer, between this and the vagaries around how things will be done with Windows 8, I'd be getting more and more irritated at the lack of clarity & communication from MS regarding where things are going. Training and coding isn't a cheap investment & there's not much of either that can afford to be wasted in this economy. Personally, I never had a problem with Silverlight. Unlike Flash, it never crashed my machine into oblivion while trying to load an ad.

Re:As an end user, bravo!

[Narnie]

That's because few ads are based on Silverlight.

Re:As an end user, bravo!

[DaVince21]

If Silverlight kept on living, it would have happened eventually. Then again, eventually, Moonlight would have started working instead of crashing all my browsers instantly.

I don't say it often

[Anonymous Coward]

but, good on Microsoft this time.

Netflix

[gatzby3jr]

Now all we need is Netflix to abandon Silverlight...

Re:Netflix

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do you need it to drop silverlight? so it can be a studdery resource hog like flash based players? or so it can have almost zero features that HTML5 affords streaming media?

Re:Netflix

[Anonymous Coward]

So that I can use it on linux?

Re:Netflix

[NuShrike]

As soon as HTML5 has a DRM alternative for PCs. It's easier to control on embedded devices, on the other side.

Re:Netflix

[katz]

DRM, that's the kicker. Talk about HTML5 all we want--fact is, there still ain't a standard video type. I can see MS continuing to pull all sorts of nasty lock-in strategies even with open standards.

Re:Netflix

[h4rr4r]

So it can work as well everywere as it does on my PS3 and Droid. Neither one of those uses silverlight.

Re:Netflix

[b0bby]

Flash on my Revo HTPC actually works quite well - Silverlight's lack of GPU acceleration makes it a non-starter. 5 is supposed to have it, but no sign of it working yet & if MS ditches it it might never happen.

Re:Netflix

[vivek7006]

Silverlight does GPU acceleration as long as you have the right video card. My Radeon 5000 series card accelerates netflix HD content just fine (CPU usage sits at 5% while I watch HD streams)

Re:Netflix

[b0bby]

I should have said, lack of support for acceleration with Ion GPUs. It's a great HTPC platform, it would be nice to be able to have Netflix on it.

Re:Netflix

[iceaxe]

Why do you need it to drop silverlight?

So I can use it. There is no Silverlight for my OS, and Netflix doesn't work with Moonlight last time I tried.

Re:Netflix

[Anonymous Coward]

And project Tuva as well.

Re:Netflix

[m50d]

You mean you can't? And people usually claim FreeBSD has fewer features...

Re:Netflix

[im_thatoneguy]

Now all we need is Netflix to abandon Silverlight...

... when an alternative comes along.

The alternative is flash. If Microsoft had rewritten Live Drive for flash there would be a concern. But HTML 5 doesn't offer the same level of encryption as Silverlight.

I think this is what we'll see more of. There are going to be less and less places where it makes sense to use a non-standard dev environment instead of HTML5 (Remember flash drop down menus etc?). But that doesn't mean that there won't be areas where it's better to use a plugin like silverlight. Those areas will just be less and less as HTML evolves but for now we'll see Silverlight and Flash continue to evolve.

Re:Netflix

[Dwonis]

But HTML 5 doesn't offer the same level of encryption as Silverlight.

Oh, give it a rest. The only reason why content providers even bother with that is because there's always some jerk who is willing to lie to them about what crypto can do, and the content providers themselves aren't savvy enough to know any better.

Encryption in DRM is a waste. of. time. The *only* thing it accomplishes is vendor lock-in for the maker of the DRM-encumbered platform. If you think encryption in DRM protects content providers, then you don't know what you're talking about.

Do you honestly think that I couldn't find anything I want from Netflix on a torrent site somewhere, if I wanted to? You could replace all that crypto snake oil with a couple of simple HTTP headers, ask developers nicely to respect it by default, and you'd be done. It would "keep honest people honest", it would change nothing for the dishonest folks, and it would cost far less and avoid the lock-in of complicated crypto-based DRM monstrosities.

Re:Netflix

[im_thatoneguy]

Encryption in DRM is a waste. of. time. The *only* thing it accomplishes is vendor lock-in for the maker of the DRM-encumbered platform. If you think encryption in DRM protects content providers, then you don't know what you're talking about.

Inevitably content gets ripped, true. But the goal is often to discourage the casual effort.

There are sites which let you download a YouTube link to watch on a future date offline. I know of no such site for Netflix. There might be a way to do it but it's not going to be trivial. It would be easier as you mention to just torrent it from another source.

I don't anybody personally who has ever ripped a Netflix Instant stream. That sounds like a successful operation to me.

Re:Netflix

[Dwonis]

Inevitably content gets ripped, true. But the goal is often to discourage the casual effort.

A simple advisory flag would accomplish that.

There are sites which let you download a YouTube link to watch on a future date offline. I know of no such site for Netflix. There might be a way to do it but it's not going to be trivial. It would be easier as you mention to just torrent it from another source.

I don't anybody personally who has ever ripped a Netflix Instant stream. That sounds like a successful operation to me.

The success criterion for DRM isn't "prevent everyone from ripping a Netflix stream", it's "prevent everyone from ripping Doctor Who". People don't rip Netflix right now simply because there are currently easier sources. Meanwhile, for example, the record labels have handed their entire electronic distribution system to Apple. Oops.

Re:Netflix

[Dwonis]

Inevitably content gets ripped, true. But the goal is often to discourage the casual effort.

A simple advisory flag would accomplish that.

More to the point: Given that DRM doesn't prevent the content from leaking onto the open Internet, who cares whether users casually rip their streams? It doesn't make an actual, substantial difference.

Good for them

[torgis]

If they're trying to sell this as a cloud service, why limit yourselves to Windows machines? Microsoft is in the business of making money, and they're quite good at it. Apparently, there is more money in using open standards and having more customers, as opposed to being force-fed your own proprietary standard and limiting your userbase as a result. Certain other huge megacorps (Sony, for one) could learn from this.

Re:Good for them

[Shados]

Indeed! Why would you limit yourself to Windows machines!

Which is why they were using Silverlight, since its no limited to windows machines!

Re:Good for them

[shutdown -p now]

He has a point, though. Silverlight was effectively limited to desktops - Windows and OS X only. HTML5 solution should be also accessible from iOS and Android - how many more customers is that? Millions, likely.

Silverlight on intranets

[Anonymous Coward]

Silverlight is finding its way to corporate intranets.In an MS shop, many times it just boils down to choosing between Silverlight and ActiveX.

Re:Silverlight on intranets

[jellomizer]

Sounds like doomed either way?

Most corporations don't need Silverlight anyways even with HTML 4 and ASP.NET you were able to make apps that needs to get done on a corporate level.
AJAX killed ActiveX, To bad those Old guys at IT in those corporations don't know that.

Given how few PCs are connected to televisions

[tepples]

How many Netflix subscribers actually use the PC version? Given how few PCs are connected to TV-sized monitors, I'd guess that most Netflix streaming happens on Wii, Xbox 360, PS3, or BD players.

Re:Given how few PCs are connected to televisions

[HaZardman27]

I'm not positive on this, but I imagine the Xbox 360 Netflix client uses Silverlight, judging by the presence of the .Net framework on that platform, so that probably counts for a significant portion of Netflix users.

Re:Given how few PCs are connected to televisions

[McGuirk]

Vizios make damn fine monitors. Much cheaper per inch than actual computer monitors.

Re:Given how few PCs are connected to televisions

[Anonymous Coward]

A lot of people stream Netflix on their PC, myself included. I have a feeling that most of us will be celebrating the day Netflix drops their oh-so-crappy Silverlight player.

Re:Given how few PCs are connected to televisions

[TelavianX]

I stream netflix through my PC on a 55" TV. It works very nicely.

Re:Given how few PCs are connected to televisions

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Unfortunately, they are still TVs, not monitors.

You can tell by the pixels.

Re:Given how few PCs are connected to televisions

[wmbetts]

I use mine on the PS3. I would use it on my computer, but I refuse to install Silverlight. However, I'm guessing I'm in the minority.

Re:Given how few PCs are connected to televisions

[JordanL]

I'm a bit of a video geek, so please don't take this as me saying you're wrong, but I can't stand looking at Vizios. They, essentially, are a warehouse in California that receives the reject parts from several other manufacturers, then puts it together into a TV. I, personally, notice it quite a bit... I wish I could use something like a Vizio as a monitor without going crazy, because they are VERY inexpensive.

Re:Given how few PCs are connected to televisions

[b0bby]

I use it all the time, so that's one. I bet a lot of laptop owners use it too. I would use it on my Ion/Atom HTPC, but Silverlight still doesn't have GPU acceleration so I use my BD player in the living room.

Re:Given how few PCs are connected to televisions

[Riceballsan]

true but how many people browse to easily exploitable webpages on their x-box. A succesful attack requires 2 things. 1. a user that can be suckered into going to where your exploit is, and 2. a hole in the system or a user dumb enough to poke one themselves (Ie opening an untrusted application etc...). Having flash on a system that never goes anywhere other then hulu.com is also a system that would almost never be compromised, that dosn't speak for the security of flash itself, just the benefit of a system the users don't feel compelled to explore uncharted territory on.

Re:Given how few PCs are connected to televisions

[nschubach]

According to the Sony E3 conference, the PS3 was the most used Netflix streaming device (According to Netflix, 30% I believe, but more than any other device.)

Re:Given how few PCs are connected to televisions

[nschubach]

30% of all Netflix users use a PS3 for streaming (according to Jack Tretton [who cited Netflix] at the Sony E3 conference.)

So, you are not alone.

Re:Given how few PCs are connected to televisions

[Anonymous Coward]

Monitors are not about screen inches, they're about pixels. I have an LP3065 (2560x1600), and I'd rather not drop down to 1920x1200 thank you very much.

Re:Given how few PCs are connected to televisions

[HaZardman27]

That may be due in part to the lack of Silverlight's video compression on the PS3. I've never actually looked into the details of it, but I've heard Silverlight's compression is fairly significant. I guess it depends on whether that 30% was a measure of total devices streaming Netflix, or the amount of bandwidth used.

Re:Given how few PCs are connected to televisions

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a feeling that most don't know or care about Silverlight. I also suspect that the only reason you feel it is "oh-so-crappy" is that Microsoft makes it - because honestly, it works just fine.

Re:Given how few PCs are connected to televisions

[nschubach]

It could be construed that way I guess. If it's bandwidth, it could also be that the PS3 is the only system that currently allows 1080p streaming, but whatever way you try to argue it you're picking nits. If it's bandwidth, it would mean more of their attention would be concerned with providing PS3 users the experience they enjoy currently. If it's stream count, it would mean the same thing really. Either way, Netflix's total output is higher when talking about PS3 clients than any other platform.

Jack Tretton, the CEO for Sony Computer Entertainment America announced at Sony's E3 press conference that the PS3 accounts for 30% of all Netflix streaming – the highest among all Netflix streaming devices. A report issued last month from Sandvine indicated that the Microsoft Xbox 360 made up 25% of all Netflix traffic.

(Source)

Re:Given how few PCs are connected to televisions

[iamhassi]

"How many Netflix subscribers actually use the PC version? "

Anyone that uses PlayON to stream Netflix to their HDTV. I believe XBMC and boxee does that too.

I recently had to stop using my XBMC for Netflix because I had so many problems with getting Silverlight to work correctly with XP. Now I stream Netflix through the PS3.

Re:Given how few PCs are connected to televisions

[triffid_98]

I had so many problems with getting Silverlight to work correctly with XP. Now I stream Netflix through the PS3

...except when PSN goes down for a month straight, since their Netflix app doesn't work without it.

Re:Given how few PCs are connected to televisions

[1729]

A lot of people stream Netflix on their PC, myself included. I have a feeling that most of us will be celebrating the day Netflix drops their oh-so-crappy Silverlight player.

I use a Mac Mini with an HDTV as my home media center, and I watch of lot of Netflix on it. Netflix+Silverlight works better than any Flash-based streaming site I've used. I don't know who deserves the credit for it, but I'm happy with the service.

Re:Given how few PCs are connected to televisions

[tepples]

I also suspect that the only reason you feel it is "oh-so-crappy" is that Microsoft makes it - because honestly, it works just fine.

I've been told Netflix doesn't work in Moonlight. So if you built your own Linux HTPC, tough droppings.

Re:Given how few PCs are connected to televisions

[grahamd0]

How many Netflix subscribers actually use the PC version? Given how few PCs are connected to TV-sized monitors...

I can't answer that question, but, anecdotally, I do. Also, I have a PC hooked up to my living room TV for Netflix and gaming.

Right off the top of my head, I can think of at least 2 other people who have PCs hooked up to TVs or projectors they use for Netflix.

I would be surprised if the number was as low as you imply, though I'm sure the majority on are on consoles or Roku type devices.

Re:Given how few PCs are connected to televisions

[tepples]

I would be surprised if the number was as low as you imply

It's not just me. See another comment that cites comments written by other Slashdot users who agree that the average person doesn't watch PC video or play PC games on a TV. They claim that there aren't enough home theater PC gamers like you to make a market for PC games that take advantage of gamepads, and therefore there is no market for indie games that take advantage of gamepads.

Re:Given how few PCs are connected to televisions

[Divebus]

Silverlight contains the last gasp of Windows Media.

Oh noes!

[LordStormes]

Microsoft is embracing a STANDARD that isn't tied to a closed language they invented. Oh, the horror. I know, it's terrible for coders that learned Silverlight. Once upon a time, I learned Pascal. I used it. It did stuff for me. And the industry moved on, and Pascal is useless to me now. It's not even on my resume, because it's pointless. We're sorry that the world's progress risks making the time you spent learning that language/tool obsolete. Please move on.

Re:Oh noes!

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure that after Microsoft "embraces" HTML5, they will see its limitations, and therefore need to "extend" its functionality. Do they already have a seat on the HTML5 steering committee?

Re:Oh noes!

[frank_adrian314159]

I know, it's terrible for coders that learned Silverlight. Once upon a time, I learned Pascal. I used it. It did stuff for me. And the industry moved on, and Pascal is useless to me now.

Yes. And every time that a vendor decides that it needs to use a language or technology to lock in some subset of the market, you'll have to do it again, wasting your time and effort to learn a "different" - not new, not better, only "different" - way to bring up a window or code a for-loop. There's a word for people who fall for things over and over. I think it's called "gullible". Oh yeah, and the time-wasting part... I think it's called "inefficient".

Re:Oh noes!

[Whyzzi]

Yeah, eh - > Move along, nothing to see here!

Re:Oh noes!

[Lennie]

Well, it is pretty clear from what people have found in Windows 8, extending is exactly what Microsoft will do in HTML5. It will be ActiveX all over again.

They don't have a seat in the WHATWG, which is an effort started by Mozilla and Opera to create HTML5 (HTML for applications) when the W3C thought XML was the best thing since sliced bread and wanted to create something which isn't backwardscompatible with HTML4.

But HTML5 is actually 'standardised' in W3C and Microsoft like many others is part of that ofcourse.

Re:Oh noes!

[Tarlus]

Of course. You know how this works.

Either Microsoft adopts a standard and catches criticism for abandoning earlier technologies.

Or, Microsoft sticks with (and continues to extend) an earlier technology and catches criticism for not adopting a standard.

Slashdot is pretty notorious for bashing Microsoft for ridiculous reasons.

Re:Oh noes!

[shutdown -p now]

You have to extend it if it is to be used for rich client apps, there's no way around it. You need stuff like filesystem access, for example, and W3C standard won't provide it because it is useless in a browser. Existing HTML/JS platforms, like webOS or BB6, extend it for all the same reasons.

But don't assume that those extensions will also be made available to any random page in the browser.

Re:Oh noes!

[Anonymous Coward]

Pascal has been significant for many more than the four years Silverlight has been around. Progress is wonderful, but the time and energy you spend on learning new technologies isn't spent on implementing business requirements. It limits what you can do with your expertise. If the speed of progress forces you to convert existing applications to new platforms, even if new versions of platforms force you to put energy in changes that wouldn't otherwise be needed, that takes away even more capacity from satisfying business requirements. Of course showing the world you are a modern company that uses the latest and greatest can be a business requirement too, but even then you can reach a point where you can't afford to keep up with it.

That may seem a bit pessimistic, but having worked in a mainframe environment for over two decades I have seen the IT world change from a place where it's normal to be able to run 20+ year old programs without even needing to recompile them while hardware and OS are being upgraded regularly, to a place where it's starting to be normal to think a 4 year old technology is obsolete. That's not sustainable.

Re:Oh noes!

[Lennie]

Filesystem access is already in the HTML5-specifications, it works just fine.

And it depends how you look at it, just take Chrome OS as an example, anything Chrome (OS) needs like teleconferencing is actually atleast in the process to be standardised by the W3C.

So no proprietary extensions.

Re:Oh noes!

[shutdown -p now]

HTML5 filesystem API is for a sandboxed area of the file system that is restricted to one particular web app. It doesn't give access to the entire file system of the OS, or even to something like "My Documents" on Windows, which is what desktop apps usually need.

Re:Oh noes!

[Lennie]

I guess it depends how you look at it, the user specifies the files you can read.

There is no sandbox like a specific directory or something like that, the file can be from anywhere.

Re:Oh noes!

[DaVince21]

Yeah! I'm surprised MS's own website is even coded in HTML! The shock!

They had to drop the beast...

[bogaboga]

...and I am happy to have been a [small] contributor to the outcome.

You see, I have resisted installing Silverlight on my Windows machines whenever I would be prompted to have it installed.

Microsoft must have gotten the message that Silverlight was not flying.

Good, they 'smelled the coffee'. I would like to hear what Microsoft zealots have to say about this.

Re:They had to drop the beast...

[TelavianX]

I do develop in silverlight and like it quite a bit. I think it is much easier to develop in than a web app any day. Sometimes the better technology does not always win the fight. We have to embrace was does win and go with it. Welcome back to the days of this app only works in browser X version Y.

Re:They had to drop the beast...

[bogaboga]

I did not bother with Silverlight because I just could not keep up with the speed in technology. I have stuck with Java and like it over here.

The presence of Android has made Java even more relevant no matter how one looks at it.

The overall problem with Microsoft is this: They are trying to get into every business by 'locking users in'. People do not like this. With all these blogs saying lies about Microsoft, the company should change and do it fast.

Here's my suggestion: Fire Steve Ballmer as an initial first step.

Re:They had to drop the beast...

[Anonymous Coward]

Let us know when you can Silverlight apps in the browser on the Nokia N9. Good riddance I say.

Re:They had to drop the beast...

[Lennie]

If they think silverlight is such a good idea, they should push the good parts in W3C.

But I expect them to extend HTML5 in Windows 8.

Re:They had to drop the beast...

[Anonymous Coward]

...and I am happy to have been a [small] contributor to the outcome.

You see, I have resisted installing Silverlight on my Windows machines whenever I would be prompted to have it installed.

Microsoft must have gotten the message that Silverlight was not flying.

Good, they 'smelled the coffee'. I would like to hear what Microsoft zealots have to say about this.

Good job. I am sure you are the reason they made this choice.

Silverlight, Flash, and vector animation

[tepples]

But damned annoying for the developers who believed the Silverlight evangelists preaching about how it was going to kill Flash.

I knew Silverlight was never going to kill Flash. It might have killed Flex and Flash Builder, but not Flash CS. Did Microsoft ever make a tool for authoring vector animations (e.g. Homestar Runner or Weebl's stuff) in Silverlight?

Re:Silverlight, Flash, and vector animation

[Dahamma]

Yeah, Expression Blend is a GUI tool to create animations in XAML/Silverlight.

It has some nice integration with Visual Studio (I have used ActionScript and C#, and much preferred C#), but the animation features definitely don't compare to Flash CS.

Well actually...

[Anonymous Coward]

I only tried out this new HTML5 verison of the site this morning. I didn't know it used silverlight before but it still uses silverlight for uploading files.

dog shit

[Lehk228]

Microsoft does eat their own dog food, the issue is that silverlight is dog shit not dog food

Option C

[cforciea]

I personally tend to not eat dog food, no matter the owner.

slightly off topic...

[swan5566]

Maybe this has been mentioned before, but why is Bill Gates still the icon for MS? He stepped down quite down quite some time ago. Maybe this exposes not just /. bias against MS in general, but for him personally? Along with that, maybe this is an attempt to freeze-frame MS as "The Man"? Ballmar might make a more interesting (funny) icon anyway.

Re:slightly off topic...

[Anonymous Coward]

No conspiracy required. The editors are lazy, incompetent, or both

Re:slightly off topic...

[Anonymous Coward]

The SlashDot Hive Mind's opinion of Microsoft is stuck in 1999.

Re:slightly off topic...

[White Flame]

I vote for a flying chair icon.

Re:slightly off topic...

[marcosdumay]

It describes better the current Microsoft than an assimilated person...

Re:slightly off topic...

[gbjbaanb]

except that he still is the 'man' behind Microsoft - even when Ballmer dropped a huge clanger, $8.5 billion sized clanger, Bill stepped in and said it was his idea, and that made things OK and saved Ballmer's ass.

Ballmer would make a funnier icon though, I'd vote for the 'developer' dance version.

It still uses silverlight

[Anonymous Coward]

Just not for UI.

HTML5 still has no good way to stream large files to a server, with progress and whatnot. Enter silverlight and/or flash.

I wish there were more coders who could look past the fucking canvas tag and see the service level for what it is on the browser.. nonexistent, and/or broken and all fucked up..

Re:It still uses silverlight

[Tridus]

Some browsers (ones not named Internet Explorer) support some fancy javascript stuff that you can use to get those things when uploading files with AJAX.

On trusting MS

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been developing for over 20 years and I learned early on that MS cannot be trusted to maintain any tech for more than a few years (long enough to destroy it). They did pretty good with .net, but the collective memory of MS developers obviously doesn't span more than a few years. Either that or young people (new developers) are very forgiving.

IMHO, MS developers deserve what they get. The world has had to support the crap MS has doled out for years (IE anyone), because developers keep buying their crap.

Re:On trusting MS

[Tridus]

New developers tend to use whatever their employer tells them. They only have more control at startups (because those tend to skew young and don't have established tech yet) and not many startups are using MS tech.

Enough with the FUD

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft offers a free 25GB cloud storage service and even uses modern web standards instead of their usual proprietary tools, and what do /. contributors do? Complain! The nerve!

Slashcode bashing?!

[rwa2]

Ooh, is this finally a thread in which Slashcode bashing isn't offtopic?

What would you use to write slashcode in today if not mod_perl?

Actually, are there any viable alternatives to javascript? Other than, you know, flash?

Re:Slashcode bashing?!

[Anonymous Coward]

sad to say this, but the truth is that there really isn't much of an alternative to flash available at all.

microsoft have just said that webgl is unsafe, so that's pretty much curtains for that technology.

if you look at the overall situation, html5 is getting nowhere fast when it comes to video and games - for both technical and political reasons. these are areas where a lot of people had very high hopes for it, including myself.

i have a strong feeling that html5 is going the same way as silverlight - not what we all want to hear but all the same...

Netflix please

[Anonymous Coward]

Can Netflix do this please?

Silverlight is dead.

[PinchDuck]

Get over it.

Don't blame the snake for acting like a snake

[Anonymous Coward]

This often happens when you buy into a proprietary framework/language/OS/whatever.

Well

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure that both of the Silverlight developers will be upset.

About Silverlight

[Anonymous Coward]

Stopped using Silverlight? Today I sent some files and is still using Silverlight ...

Dog food is good when your a dog

[Sla$hPot]

The REST is up to you :)

Well that explains it

[kevinNCSU]

Well that explains a lot of the conditions you see with your stereotypical programmers (pale, unhealthy looking, bad smell). Why have they not considered the option of, you know, not eating anyone's dog food?

Silverlight still being used...

[Anonymous Coward]

Silverlight is still required to add files...honestly don't know why, its not like they allow you to drag and drop a folder from your machine. Honestly, who designed this?

NetFlix uses Silverlight

[lazyforker]

I believe NetFlix uses Silverlight for their streaming service. (I suspect it's because Silverlight has DRM support and NetFlix probably couldn't get permission to stream DRM-less media.) But Silverlight is also one of the major platforms for Windows Phone 7. So I doubt Silverlight is going anywhere. Plus - as other commenters have noted: we shouldn't bash MSFT for moving towards standards-based solutions, we should applaud!

Re:NetFlix uses Silverlight

[Anonymous Coward]

Netflix 'uses' many things, including Linux on certain popular streaming devices. For every actual bit of Netflix content consumed via the desktop Silverlight add-on there are probably ten bits received on various and sundry non-Silverlight devices. This function is built into contemporary TVs.

Silverlight is just another odious DRM platform that has had precious little success outside of the limited realm of vertical streaming sites like ESPN and the Olympics.

So, allow me be the 1,451,931,022nd to say; nothing of value was lost.

Obsolescence

[Tofino]

If I wrote a bitter submission to Slashdot every time a technology I learned and used became obsolete, this site would be called Tofinodot. Learn HTML5 and move on.

Re:Obsolescence

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you kidding - Html5 is probably even more hopeless than Silverlight - at least MSs' shitty offering managed to get somewhere on the utterly critical video delivery front.

Html5 is a shitty hack - anyone who learns it is entering a world of cross browser pain and, further down the line, unemployment.

That explains ...

[Anonymous Coward]

... why file uploading is such a pain in the ass. I'll stick to Wuala, thx very much, at least they're not trying to push terrible technology like HTML5/JS just because everyone says it's so cool to be cloudy.

silverlight

[aahpandasrun]

Because Silverlight IS a sinking ship...

This happens all the time

[NicknamesAreStupid]

I cannot count the number of times that Microsoft has tried something and then dropped it. It goes way back to OS/2. It is the nature of rapidly evolving technology. Remember Apple's Lisa? Newton? Apple TV? Perhaps the last one is premature. You make your sales numbers on the hits, not the misses.

A word from Mr.-Cold-Water-Of-Reality-Man

[gestalt_n_pepper]

1) Microsoft has obviously decided to exit the software language tool and production business. The income generated from it barely amounts to a rounding error on their bottom line.

2) Microsoft doesn't give a crap about developers and their intellectual investment in any technology. India has lots of developers. They're disposable. Bill's trying to get potential future developers in Africa healthier and better educated as we speak. It ensures a constant pool of cheap labor.

3) Microsoft makes its money through its OS, Office, business service and game platforms, so unless you're a large organization selling widgets/services/games to wankers on the web, or servicing the software of those who do, you're irrelevant to Microsoft.

Re:A word from Mr.-Cold-Water-Of-Reality-Man

[shutdown -p now]

Microsoft has obviously decided to exit the software language tool and production business. The income generated from it barely amounts to a rounding error on their bottom line.

The basic flaw in your argument is that you only count direct income, without considering e.g. how many copies of Windows Server sell because there is ASP.NET and VS.

They didn't drop silverlight

[jader3rd]

Most of the blog posts that I read about this mention how SkyDrive still uses Silverlight, and the posts are torn on how good/bad this is. I've been using SkyDrive for a few years now with a browser that doesn't have Silverlight, and besides uploading through the webclient, I can't much of a difference. Just because SkyDrive starting using one tool (HTML5) doesn't mean they completly stopped using another tool (Silverlight). Sure there's overlap, but SkyDrive will most likely be using both for the foreseable future.

Feynman lectures?

[kooky45]

I hope this means that the Richard Feynman Messenger Series of lectures that are only available with Silverlight on the Project Tuva websites are soon going to be made available to Linux users.

And what of NetFlix?

[linuxwonder]

Can NetFlix be far behind? I would be nice if they would now switch to something else so that I could view my Instant View queue on my Ubuntu box without having to launch the !@#$% VM for XP!

Stop complaining

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft chooses to implement a service using a freely available standard with multiple open source implementations over their own proprietary solution. Why is this upsetting?

Re:Silverblight is dead.

[Megane]

I'm not going to believe it until Netcraft confirms it.

Except it is not true...

[Eirenarch]

I know this is /. and facts don't mean much here but I've been using Skydrive for an year and the only place it used Silverlight was the file upload functionality. While it is true that the interface has changed the file upload functionality still uses Silverlight just like before.

The feeling is universal.

[Anonymous Coward]

Even Microsoft employees don't like to use Microsoft products.

Silverlight is still there - HTML5 is not

[LarryWMSN]

I've used SkyDrive infrequently but I have only ever noticed Silverlight being used for 3 things. 1) Video playback 2) Picture albums/slide show 3) File uploading It looks like they only removed it for the first 2. SilverLight still comes up for the advanced file uploading. Also can someone show me where HTML 5 is used on the site other than CSS 3 opacity (which isn't technically HTML5 but comes along for the ride in every browser that supports HTML5) and the DOCTYPE? Please don't jump all over me if you find some HTML5, it's just not really obvious that any HTML that didn't exist in HTML 4 is there from a quick look at the page source on many of the pages:) This is a nice redesign, but it doesn't seem like anyone should be using this as a HTML 5 showcase.

Big companies always lose the plot eventually

[dinther]

Microsoft did not realize the significance of TCP/IP when they released windows 95
Microsoft rolled out their .net fat client platform still thinking fat clients is where it is at.
Virtual Earth failed to compete with Google Earth
Failed mobile phones
Failed MP3 players

Feel free to add to the long list.

Siverlight is just a small blip because it did not get the uptake MS had hoped for. They do this all the time. They try to compete on all fronts and never excel anywhere. MS product path is littered with abandoned poorly executed ideas some of which might have made it if they only committed to it. I feel sorry for those software companies that put all their eggs in the MS basket because their .net codebase will in the not too distant future be obsolete too.

It should be clear to everyone that operating systems are no longer significant. Running fat clients locally is no longer where it is at. PC's and Laptops are no longer the core device on which applications run. So the MS tax (Windows) on every PC will come to an end. MS is already far too late to change their direction with Windows and if MS doesn't get onto the web based bandwagon with MS Office quickly they will lose that profitable market as well.

It is a pity but unavoidable that successful companies get too big and too slow to respond to changes. Although it is thanks to MS that computing has become so accessible to the masses. They failed to pay attention over the last decade and foolishly thought they could direct their market. Developers trusting anything that MS put out over the last 5 years will wish they had not, no matter the promised potential.

Google was the new kid on the block with some amazing innovation but look closely at Google today and you can see the same warning signals. It is only a matter of time before the next company will take over from them.

Re:Big companies always lose the plot eventually

[modmans2ndcoming]

yeah.... give me that fresh new OS-Less ChromeBook netbook... Netbooks are the future!!

Re:Big companies always lose the plot eventually

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, operating systems are not significant.
Who needs an operating system on their smartphone, tablet, laptop or computer?
They are irrelevant and we don't need them.

We don't need software that can interface with the hardware so that we can USE the hardware.....

Sorry there, "Mr. I Ignore Reality" but every computer chip based product NEEDS an operating system of one sort or another. Without them the devices would just be paperweights and doorstops.

Now many people are very into the "cloud computing" fad and seem to think that there is no need for more traditional home computer systems. Its the latest fad and has the biggest buzzwords.
This will not last forever, of course: client/server computing has its place and so do thin clients. "Heavier duty" systems also have their place, however and a far better at most tasks as well as being more secure.

But the point remains: no matter whether your computing is done in the cloud like a lightweight or locally for more demanding tasks and security, you NEED an OS. The OS is the single most significant piece of software on ANY computing device.

Re:Big companies always lose the plot eventually

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft did not realize the significance of TCP/IP when they released windows 95
Microsoft rolled out their .net fat client platform still thinking fat clients is where it is at.
Virtual Earth failed to compete with Google Earth
Failed mobile phones
Failed MP3 players

Feel free to add to the long list.

Siverlight is just a small blip because it did not get the uptake MS had hoped for. They do this all the time. They try to compete on all fronts and never excel anywhere. MS product path is littered with abandoned poorly executed ideas some of which might have made it if they only committed to it. I feel sorry for those software companies that put all their eggs in the MS basket because their .net codebase will in the not too distant future be obsolete too.

It should be clear to everyone that operating systems are no longer significant. Running fat clients locally is no longer where it is at. PC's and Laptops are no longer the core device on which applications run. So the MS tax (Windows) on every PC will come to an end. MS is already far too late to change their direction with Windows and if MS doesn't get onto the web based bandwagon with MS Office quickly they will lose that profitable market as well.

It is a pity but unavoidable that successful companies get too big and too slow to respond to changes. Although it is thanks to MS that computing has become so accessible to the masses. They failed to pay attention over the last decade and foolishly thought they could direct their market. Developers trusting anything that MS put out over the last 5 years will wish they had not, no matter the promised potential.

Google was the new kid on the block with some amazing innovation but look closely at Google today and you can see the same warning signals. It is only a matter of time before the next company will take over from them.

Yep, now you pay the Apple tax.

Re:Big companies always lose the plot eventually

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft did not realize the significance of TCP/IP when they released windows 95

And your point is? 95 was able to do tcp/ip. And surely the market moved to it, not away.

Microsoft rolled out their .net fat client platform still thinking fat clients is where it is at.

And yet .net is used in major companies today. Guess they wern't completely wrong.

Virtual Earth failed to compete with Google Earth
Failed mobile phones
Failed MP3 players

This just points to a company that can't tackle both the enterprise and consumer markets at the same time. Just like Apple (of course, reversed from MS' problem).

Re:Big companies always lose the plot eventually

[dinther]

Like previous comments, you assume that I am one of those apple trolls. Not so, I don't have a single Apple device at home or at work. All of my PC's run a windows OS.

The point is that it no longer matters what OS you are running because applications move to the web. Never mind the OS, in fact even the web browser won't matter provided it is compliant with current standards.

I have never been open to use Linux because I don't want to deal with learning a new OS. But if all I interact with is a browser, then I don't care what OS is running underneath provided it does the job well.

Google's Chrome seems to go in that direction where there is logic between the browser and PC hardware that is becoming invisible to the user and irrelevant to the user. Modern laptops now often have a quick boot feature launching a quick shell (I suppose a flavour of linux) and a bunch of common apps among which a browser so in a way you can already buy a PC without paying the OS tax and have it functional out of the box.

Re:Big companies always lose the plot eventually

[dinther]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_95

"Windows 95 originally shipped without Internet Explorer, and the default network installation did not install TCP/IP, the network protocol used on the Internet."
I recall there was a third-party app that made access to the internet easier and many ISP's would ship that on their promotional Diskette.

You got a point though, MS might do better on the server front. Yet, various multimillion dollar projects that I consult for have steered away from MS server technology such as Sharepoint.

Currently I am converting a rather old web application based on the ISAPI which acts as a plugin to IIS that obviously depends on IIS to run. My client has come to rely on this application heavily over the years and increasingly feels his business is exposed to risk and MS technology is dropped so easily. The new tools for this app will be based on open source mainstream products with a wide support base and a proven track record.

Re:Big companies always lose the plot eventually

[moorster]

MS completely dominates the PC market. They also dominate the corporate tools (Office) market. They are behind in the tablet and smart phone market but that won't last long. They are holding their own in the cloud and online services market. You could make an equally long failure list for Apple and Google. You can't succeed if you don't try. More companies in all of these spaces if a good thing for consumers. I don't understand why people want MS to lose and go away. Fewer competitors is not good for anyone.

Re:Big companies always lose the plot eventually

[Anonymous Coward]

" I feel sorry for those software companies that put all their eggs in the MS basket because their .net codebase will in the not too distant future be obsolete too."

quick, someone tell StackOverflow...

Re:Big companies always lose the plot eventually

[rrohbeck]

+5. Just my thoughts.

Re:Big companies always lose the plot eventually

[Anonymous Coward]

Webbased Office? You mean like the one integrated in sharepoint 2010?
You could say that this feature isn't very powerful but its works. Using office on smartphones and tablets may sound cool but in reality the serious work will always be done on pcs or notebooks for the rest, there is sharepoint...

Re:Big companies always lose the plot eventually

[Anonymous Coward]

>Running fat clients locally is no longer where it is at.

Millions of apps being sold through app stores right now beg to differ

Re:Big companies always lose the plot eventually

[Voyager529]

yes, I know i'll come off as an MS shill, but them's the breaks...

-I'll give you TCP/IP, only because I was a smidge too young to remember most of that story aside from the Wikipedia entry on Trumpet Winsock. However, being as Windows 98 and later came with TCP/IP, and all their server software releases supported it from 2000 on (I think NT 4.0 did as well), so it's not like Windows still doesn't support it, or it just got it in Win7.

-.Net was first rolled out around the time that Longhorn was in alpha testing. Recall during that time that broadband hadn't hit critical mass yet, and even Flash was still a Macromedia product, which was largely the successor to Shockwave which had a much higher install base at the time. The cloud makes a lick of sense in 2011, but in 2002 it didn't, at least at the scale necessary to make it work.

-Virtual Earth, Google Earth...can you elaborate on the competition? Sure, more people have Google Earth installed in my circle of users...but from what I can gather neither are exactly money makers, so I doubt either companies' shareholders are pounding down doors for it.

-In its day, Windows Mobile had a sizeable market share of the smartphone market. Granted, that was predecated on the idea of being able to do stuff at all, rather than doing it WELL, but there was still a market. Also, consider that the fact that the HTC G1 was on the market for over a year before T-Mobile started marketing it at all, and at that it wasn't really until Verizon bet the farm on the Motorola Droid that Android took off. I personally am clinging to WinMo 6.5 for dear life for certain reasons, but "failed" means that the product never made any significant market share, not "it wasn't an immediate success".

-The Zune was a flop, but to play the flip side, consider that at the time of release, iTunes still had DRM that wasn't compatible with the Zune Software, and Microsoft took too long to get their digital media house in order, which is an MS failure, but not a failure based on bad hardware - it was more a late-to-market ecosystem.

The one thing I agree with is the fact that a large company that's got a formula (MS with Windows and Office) is going to inevitably have an issue whereby intertia is almost impossible to overcome. Google without search? Apple without iTunes? Amazon without direct sales? This is what happens. MS will keep chugging along as long as there are desktops and servers in homes and small businesses.

Re:Big companies always lose the plot eventually

[dinther]

You're not a MS shill, quite impressed by your reasoned reply.

On TCP/IP. My point was that at the point the Internet hit mainstream MS failed to recognize it's significance. To be fair. I believe windows 95 did come with TCP/IP support but it was not enabled or installed by default.

I mentioned Virtual earth because it was a 3D world model introduced with a lot of noise and recently abandoned. I know that all these companies are struggling to make money of this stuff but MS looks fickle when they declare a standard and then walk away a few years later because nobody wants to play their game. Even with Google Earth the pressure is on because new technology is making 3D map generation easier and better as shown by OVI maps 3D

The word failed is probably a poor word to use. But when a company loses a decent market share (look at MSIE) and then decides to walk away from it it doesn't only affect them, it affects those that build on that technology. Choosing technology these days is as much about continuity as it is about feature and power.

Dumb, da dumb, dumb.

[Anonymous Coward]

I was reading the comments between MS lovers/haters, and the whole discussion is a waste of time. You all are idiots.

Re:Dumb, da dumb, dumb.

[moorster]

Can't the two groups coexist? Can't we forgive and forget past offenses? Can't we get rid of that lame Bill Gates as the Borg icon?

WTF?

[Anonymous Coward]

MICROSOFT YOU SUCK FOR DEVELOPING AND USING YOUR OWN TECHNOLOGY!!! Use open standards!!

MICROSOFT YOU SUCK FOR ADOPTING AND PROMOTING OPEN STANDARDS!!! Use your own technology!!

OMFG.. make up your mind people... You can't damn Microsoft if they do and damn them if they don't.. *YOU* look like the idiots...

Re:WTF?

[CokoBWare]

Ding ding ding ding! You win the prize for the most common sense comment yet!

Most of the public doesn't do this

[tepples]

I own a Vizio VX32L monitor. I occasionally connect a PC to it. But several Slashdot regulars have informed me that most people either A. don't know their TV can display video from a PC or B. don't see a compelling reason to buy another PC to put in the TV cabinet. See comments from FunkSoulBrother, CronoCloud (again), Altrag, hawguy (again), and Endo13.

Nokia revenge

[gerddie]

Must be the Nokia syndrome creeping over to Redmond: start some new technology, and then dump it ...

just trolling :)

Kinda like JSF

[Uloi]

I did JSF for 5 years, went to an interview and they asked me what I thought of it. Instead of saying what I really thought, (I think its a POS) I answered in the political "Its not right for all situations". This was before Oracle bought Sun. The guy then started telling me how great is was and if it wasn't super nifty for everything why did Sun recommend it, etc. My response, if it was so great, why didn't Sun use it on their own site? Everyone in the room laughed, and I didn't get the job, not that I wanted it after that.

No, really

[Alkonaut]

Microsoft, like Adobe, realize that RIA technology is a niche and should be used as such on the web. There are a few occasions when you cannot use html+js, so you need a RIA technology. I don't think msft ever claimed Silverlight was to be used to replace html on the web. It was created to compete with flash.

Silverlight (or other RIA-tech) can be used appropriately, for example for: phone-app-development, special embedded web applications (video player etc.), and on certain desktop-like web applications (kiosks, point of sale). Microsoft more or less openly reveals that this is what they are aiming for.

The only real killer app on the www these days for silverlight is video. Microsoft of course couldn't let adobe set the agenda for streaming video, and html 5 never had a shot as it only (afaik) allows displaying media files, not for example monitor the users playback of the media or have any such realtime two-way communication. Silverlight "smooth streaming" or whatever they call it, beat the only other two competitors (flash, wmp) hands down.

Re:No, really

[gbjbaanb]

The only real killer app on the www these days for silverlight is video

that'll be why Youtube uses it, right? Perhaps its not so much a killer feature after all, could be that's why they're killing it off.

Told you so

[equex]

Everyone knew Silverlight would fail to compete with JS and Flash when it came. If you based your future on Silverlight then perhaps you are getting what you asked for.

FUUUUUUUUUUD

[giuseppemag]

Where the fuck did anybody officially say they dropped support for Silverlight?

So, Microsoft has changed one of its websites from Silverlight to HTML 5. That's a standard, so it's always A Good Thing.

Silverlight remains there, a good way to build animated user experiences; Silverlight 5 will be integrated with XNA. Having the chance to push a reduced version of my game (I am a game developer, and I can assure you this is VERY IMPORTANT TO MY COMPANY) through the browser as a demo/for betas, etc. is great. Easily deploying an application with a complex logic (nope: a dynamically typed language such as Javascript is worse than C# for complex reasoning) to many users through the browser with the possibility of right-clicking it to install it offline is another Good Thing.

So from where I sit Microsoft has done a good job because HTML 5 is better for that kind of website, and Silverlight is very alive even though it will be reduced to the only thing it was successful at: medium/large applications that must be easily deployed.

Re:FUUUUUUUUUUD

[Meski]

Where the fuck did anybody officially say they dropped support for Silverlight?

Not sure, but this isn't the first occurrence of them dropping it. They haven't 'officially' dropped support for DCOM, for that matter.

correction

[BeanThere]

If it is true that MS is adopting Silverlight (I'm not convinced it is,

Sorry, i should use preview next time - that should read "that MS is dropping Silverlight"

Program at a higher level

[Improv]

Are we former OS/2 users allowed to snicker yet?

Re:Program at a higher level

[Meski]

Yes, but try and not hurt your ribs.

MS is eating their own dog food

[perpenso]

HTML5 was nowhere to be seen when Silverlight came out. It was needed back then, if only as a competitor for Flash.

To rephrase in the dog food analogy: Silverlight was the MS dog food brand in the Flash era. In the HTML5 era HTML5 is the MS dog food brand. They merely introduced a new brand. Has the Silverlight brand been discontinued, no longer offered or supported?

Microsoft declares their stuff junk

[alexmin]

One more time. That's like 10th time around. First time I distinctly remember them doing this with DDE in like '92 - now OLE is king. Wait, OLE is junk, ActiveX is king; No, wait, ActiveX is junk, .NET is king, and by the way, Silverlight is king too. Oh wait...

Same with database access tech - ODBC, DAO, ADO, OLEDB, etc.
Same with GUI toolkits.

I got tired of listening to their stupid routine ten years ago and stopped concentrating on Windows and MS. Best career decision ever.

Re:Silverblight is dead.

[Dwonis]

I'm not going to believe it until Netcraft confirms it.

How's this?

Microsoft has recently shifted its strategy on Silverlight as a cross-platform solution and now wants to implement standards-based HTML5 really, really, really well in Internet Explorer 9.

Dog food?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Eating your own dog food"??!? Where the hell does this saying come from?

Silverlight Actively Developed! Version 5 in Beta.

[Nemo's Night Sky]

A quick glance at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Silverlight#Silverlight_5 shows that the next version of Silverlight is planned for the second half of 2011. (Beta available now.) New features include a BRAND NEW 3D API. Just because some site uses HTML5 has nothing to do with Microsoft's long term development plans for Silverlight, which should fall into a niche quite different from either Flash or HTML5.

MS-Bob

[Anonymous Coward]

Bob, is that you ?

Copernicus law works in IT ?

[jacekm]

Copernicus law that bad money replaces good money seems to be working in IT.

PC won over Apple
Intell 8088 won over Motorola 68000

Microsoft had multiple wins with inferior products:

Windows won over Apple OS and Amiga OS
MFC won over Borland OWL
Visual Basic won over Delphi
IE won over Netscape and was winning over Firefox for years.

But now Microsoft finally has really good, in some cases world class products and the tables are turned:

Excellent Windows phone 7 seems to be going nowhere.
Excellent Zune is a lost cause.
Fantastic developement environment in shape of Visual Studio and .net seems to be loosing steam.
Excellent C# probably will loose as soon as .net is abandoned.

There is something in IT that good enough often wins over excellent.

Re:Copernicus law works in IT ?

[Anonymous Coward]

The fact that to appreciate that it is excellent requires some historical perspective to judge it so.
Did you ever run an app in native code vs an app in .net. On current machines, the first one flies and the other one just is sluggish.
So much for excellence and fantastic.

As for JSF above, if it is so good, how comes Office 2010 isn't a .NET app? C-code rules at the core. No matter how you look at it.
The there are all kinds of user mode frameworks and applications. Which are doomed to obsolescence.

Silverlight...

[Anonymous Coward]

... plays for sure! ;^)

No change in direction

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft development tools has been slowly moving towards this for years, just look at mvc, jquery, support for html5 in visual studio and so on. Anyone caring enough about developing using microsoft technology would have seen this coming for years.

Silverlight IS a great piece of technology for building client applications. It is however not a good replacement for flash.

A .net code-base will "never" be obsolete their whole stack depends on it. Even these new "flashy" html5 apps run .net-code on the server side. The same code runs on windows mobile, normal fat-clients and id daresay someone probably has found a way to translate it into javascript aswell. It's just too big to die.

XAML is better markup

[CodeInspired]

It's a safe bet to assume that many of the negative comments here are posted by people who have never studied or written a line of XAML. I'll agree that it's unclear what the future of Silverlight may be, but for designing and manipulating a user interface, XAML + .NET language of choice is light years ahead of the HTML + CSS + Javascript mess we have now. I contend that if web browsers natively supported markup languages like XAML or Adobe's MXML, and they all had the support to download the appropriate byte code to manipulate it (.NET, ActionScript, Java, python, etc), we would see a very different web. Without the universal compatibility, HTML/CSS/Javascript has little if any advantage over the RIA environments. Given a choice, I would bet that 99/100 developers would choose the more powerful and expressive markup (XAML, MXML, etc.) and the programming language to match whatever they are using on the server side (.NET, Java, Python, etc.).

Or

[Meski]

It seems that now Microsoft would rather eat dog food made elsewhere..."

OR 'used' dog food.

Why did you bother?

[SmallFurryCreature]

Anyone with a brain not controlled from Redmond knew that Silverlight was always going to be Windows only. Even if support for Linux had been better, people who buy Linux and even OSX bought it at least partially for their ill regard of MS software. Mac users might not hate MS but they also are not just going to install MS software just because an incidental site asks for it. They just continue on to another site.

The world has changed, it has changed so much that for a while (still might be the case) if you GOOGLED for CHROME, you got a PAID MS ad to the site for Inter Explorer. MS paying its BIGGEST rival to advertise a browser you can only use on a OS it already came with for "free" anyway. What is more amazing is that they showed these adds to Apple and Linux users like me. That is how much the world has changed:

MS: Here, we give this browser free with the OS, it is right there on your desktop. Oh, I see you are searching for a replacement for it, do you not want to use ours after ALL? Oh, you are on an OS it doesn't run on... well you sure you don't want to buy a new computer then?

Some people keep going on about the iPad and iPhone not having flash but everyday thousands of them are sold by an audience that doesn't care. If they don't care about flash, what do they care about silverlight? (It might or might not be installable but it sure as hell doesn't come with it by default).

And the alternative for the flash less apple devices? Android. Again, without silverlight pre-installed (if it can even be installed).

The world is not controlled by MS software anymore and what is most amazing is that few seem to care. MS has always hoped that people loved its software so much they would demand the same software to run on other devices. They thought the X-box confirmed this. It didn't (what is windows about the X-box). People are a lot more free from MS lock-in then anyone thought.

Those who actually watched the developments over the years have seen this coming. IE didn't need to totally die for that, the moment "other browsers" became more then statistical anomoly, MS domination had ended because as a website developer you could no longer do a IE only site if you had to depend on real customers.

When the boss bought a macbook, MS died a little because all of a sudden, things had to work on a non-ms OS and the boss suddenly demanded that the company became capable of dealing with non-ms solutions. Want a linux desktop? Look for a boss with a Mac.

Silverlight was pushed as the next big MS thing, that it was doomed was clear from just the fact MS claimed it would support other OS'es. That right there was MS admitting they no longer controlled the user. Any such support depended on the cooperation of not just the "other OS'es" but the users of said systems. It meant there was always going to be a high percentage of people who just didn't going to have it installed and that is not a way to push a new technology. Only those who secretly hoped to go back to the days of IE6 only websites laced with ActiveX swallowed the dog shit.

Anyone who knows that a web application has to be platform independent stayed well clear of it.

Go ahead, proof me wrong, find me a Silverlight developer who actually tested his application on non-MS software to any extent. MS shops bought into a MS sales pitch just as they always done. MS developers sure seem to have short memories.

FYI

[ThatsNotPudding]

The CEO of Netflix is on Microsoft's board of directors. And this is why Netflix will never be allowed to work on Linux.

Re:FYI

[darkgrayknight]

Studios need for DRM is probably a larger hurdle than MS/Netflix relationship.

Developers that bought into Silverlight

[CondeZer0]

Should have studied history a bit more closely, if you build your business (or career) on proprietary technology controlled by somebody else you will get screwed sooner or later.

Microsoft has dumped their developers overboard many times before, and will continue to do it as long as it is convenient. At least in this case they are replacing things with relatively open standards that they can't so easily kill later on.

Flash developers are starting to learn this the hard way too, apple developers will be next.

Who's surprised?

[Anonymous Coward]

Good riddance to bad rubbish. Silverlight was only ever a transitional technology to support .NET junkies until HTML5 pwns web development.

To "excel" imo, is to be 1st @ something

[Anonymous Coward]

Think about it, plenty of examples...

MS included with DOS in the personal computer (first with big marketing that is) - MS took the market by storm, & I still recall the DOS vs. Windows user debates of the mid 1990's really, & I was a DOS man!

(That was much as today's Apple or Linux vs. Windows debates are now)

Yes - people NEVER change, there's always "fanboys/zealots" & for good reasons no doubt - their livelyhoods depends on platforms & they're unwilling to change!

Hey, for those EXACT admitted reasons (and that Windows pretty much has a lot more REALLY high quality wares and drivers for it vs. *NIX variants (which I like & use too, KUbuntu 10.10 here, & it's pretty good but, it's STILL NO WINDOWS 7)

Hey - I was such a guy, still am (I like Windows 7), to an extent!

However, I am forcing myself to learn new tools like Python for instance (coming outta a C/C++/VB/.NET/Delphi skillset from the mid to late 90's into the 21 century)).

If you've ever seen the film "Pirates of Silicon Valley" which I am sure most "geeks" have? "King Billy" (what I call Mr. Gates outta respect, not ribbing) said it to Steve Jobs:

"I GOT THERE FIRST, I GOT THE LOOT!"

@ the film's termination... says it ALL really, & his successes proved it!

Anyhow/Anyways - Another example (I may not be as accurate here):

BetaMax vs. VHS who won that? VHS - even though I have heard tell that BetaMax was a better/superior product technically & in output for the enduser.

Again though on this one - Don't quote me on that, I am not "expert" in history of electronics, but correct me IF I am off/wrong (I was there when that was going on, I was just a kid though).

I know 1 thing for sure though:

Change is INEVITABLE. Not always good either & it depends on who's doing the looking etc./et al too & judging! Always "shades of gray" & there are few absolutes (ala "binary thinking" etc.)

You made a point though in the end I agree with:

Eventually, even the 'GOOGLES' of today (amazing company - lots of innovation, & yes, I am "partial to them" lol, see my 'signature' below)?

They WILL become an MS... inevitable really! Nobody can "innovate" forever. At least not that I've ever seen in 1/2 a century of existence.

Even Rome fell down... eventually (300++ yrs. in duration as a strong empire, iirc... 3-4 generations tops).

APK

P.S.=> LOL, in the end, from my perspective: The only thing I can't stand, lol, (well not really): ALL THE DAMN CHANGES, & not that really, but so damned fast! Ah, maybe I am getting old...lol!

... apk

MS is still smarter than my dog

[Mud_Monster]

My dog eats her own poop.