Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft's SkyDrive Drops Silverlight
mikejuk writes "Microsoft's SkyDrive, a web service that provides cloud storage for end user files, has just acquired a revamped user interface — and it is HTML5 based. Yes, another Microsoft website has dropped Silverlight. How can Microsoft expect independent developers to base their future on Silverlight when Microsoft itself is abandoning it like a sinking ship? Whatever happened to 'eating your own dog food'? It seems that now Microsoft would rather eat dog food made elsewhere..."
So Microsoft starts using standards compliant HTML5 instead of Silverlight on their sites and you bash them for it? Seriously?
And regardless, HTML5 was nowhere to be seen when Silverlight came out. It was needed back then, if only as a competitor for Flash. Have you noticed Silverlight hasn't even had the same security concerns and exploits as Flash?
This is a good thing from Microsoft, not bad. Stop bashing them for everything they do, even if its a good thing.
Sure, it's stabbing their "Developers! Developers! Developers!" in the back, but isn't it a positive that they moving to more widespread technologies?
Whatever happened to posting stories that aren't filled with FUD and hate? Maybe HTML5 is more standards compliant and more widely available on other things... like say... Mobile devices... Which are probably one of the places many people would want to access the 'cloud' from. Or perhaps silverlight is too heavy for the task of being a portal UI... Whatever happened to using the right tool for the right job?
I don't care what you say, all I need is my Wumpabet soup.
"How can Microsoft expect independent developers to base their future on Silverlight when Microsoft itself is abandoning it like a sinking ship?"
They don't expect people to base their future on Silverlight. Why would anyone think that at this point?
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
I applaud this as an end user. The fewer idiotic plug-ins and crap I have to have installed, the better. As a programmer, between this and the vagaries around how things will be done with Windows 8, I'd be getting more and more irritated at the lack of clarity & communication from MS regarding where things are going. Training and coding isn't a cheap investment & there's not much of either that can afford to be wasted in this economy. Personally, I never had a problem with Silverlight. Unlike Flash, it never crashed my machine into oblivion while trying to load an ad.
Now all we need is Netflix to abandon Silverlight...
If they're trying to sell this as a cloud service, why limit yourselves to Windows machines? Microsoft is in the business of making money, and they're quite good at it. Apparently, there is more money in using open standards and having more customers, as opposed to being force-fed your own proprietary standard and limiting your userbase as a result. Certain other huge megacorps (Sony, for one) could learn from this.
How many Netflix subscribers actually use the PC version? Given how few PCs are connected to TV-sized monitors, I'd guess that most Netflix streaming happens on Wii, Xbox 360, PS3, or BD players.
Microsoft is embracing a STANDARD that isn't tied to a closed language they invented. Oh, the horror. I know, it's terrible for coders that learned Silverlight. Once upon a time, I learned Pascal. I used it. It did stuff for me. And the industry moved on, and Pascal is useless to me now. It's not even on my resume, because it's pointless. We're sorry that the world's progress risks making the time you spent learning that language/tool obsolete. Please move on.
...and I am happy to have been a [small] contributor to the outcome.
You see, I have resisted installing Silverlight on my Windows machines whenever I would be prompted to have it installed.
Microsoft must have gotten the message that Silverlight was not flying.
Good, they 'smelled the coffee'. I would like to hear what Microsoft zealots have to say about this.
But damned annoying for the developers who believed the Silverlight evangelists preaching about how it was going to kill Flash.
I knew Silverlight was never going to kill Flash. It might have killed Flex and Flash Builder, but not Flash CS. Did Microsoft ever make a tool for authoring vector animations (e.g. Homestar Runner or Weebl's stuff) in Silverlight?
Maybe this has been mentioned before, but why is Bill Gates still the icon for MS? He stepped down quite down quite some time ago. Maybe this exposes not just /. bias against MS in general, but for him personally? Along with that, maybe this is an attempt to freeze-frame MS as "The Man"? Ballmar might make a more interesting (funny) icon anyway.
In debates about Christianity, there are two groups: those looking for answers, and those looking to just ask questions.
Sounds like doomed either way?
Most corporations don't need Silverlight anyways even with HTML 4 and ASP.NET you were able to make apps that needs to get done on a corporate level.
AJAX killed ActiveX, To bad those Old guys at IT in those corporations don't know that.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Ooh, is this finally a thread in which Slashcode bashing isn't offtopic?
What would you use to write slashcode in today if not mod_perl?
Actually, are there any viable alternatives to javascript? Other than, you know, flash?
Get over it.
The REST is up to you :)
Well that explains a lot of the conditions you see with your stereotypical programmers (pale, unhealthy looking, bad smell). Why have they not considered the option of, you know, not eating anyone's dog food?
I believe NetFlix uses Silverlight for their streaming service. (I suspect it's because Silverlight has DRM support and NetFlix probably couldn't get permission to stream DRM-less media.) But Silverlight is also one of the major platforms for Windows Phone 7. So I doubt Silverlight is going anywhere. Plus - as other commenters have noted: we shouldn't bash MSFT for moving towards standards-based solutions, we should applaud!
If I wrote a bitter submission to Slashdot every time a technology I learned and used became obsolete, this site would be called Tofinodot. Learn HTML5 and move on.
Because Silverlight IS a sinking ship...
I cannot count the number of times that Microsoft has tried something and then dropped it. It goes way back to OS/2. It is the nature of rapidly evolving technology. Remember Apple's Lisa? Newton? Apple TV? Perhaps the last one is premature. You make your sales numbers on the hits, not the misses.
1) Microsoft has obviously decided to exit the software language tool and production business. The income generated from it barely amounts to a rounding error on their bottom line.
2) Microsoft doesn't give a crap about developers and their intellectual investment in any technology. India has lots of developers. They're disposable. Bill's trying to get potential future developers in Africa healthier and better educated as we speak. It ensures a constant pool of cheap labor.
3) Microsoft makes its money through its OS, Office, business service and game platforms, so unless you're a large organization selling widgets/services/games to wankers on the web, or servicing the software of those who do, you're irrelevant to Microsoft.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
Most of the blog posts that I read about this mention how SkyDrive still uses Silverlight, and the posts are torn on how good/bad this is. I've been using SkyDrive for a few years now with a browser that doesn't have Silverlight, and besides uploading through the webclient, I can't much of a difference. Just because SkyDrive starting using one tool (HTML5) doesn't mean they completly stopped using another tool (Silverlight). Sure there's overlap, but SkyDrive will most likely be using both for the foreseable future.
I hope this means that the Richard Feynman Messenger Series of lectures that are only available with Silverlight on the Project Tuva websites are soon going to be made available to Linux users.
Can NetFlix be far behind? I would be nice if they would now switch to something else so that I could view my Instant View queue on my Ubuntu box without having to launch the !@#$% VM for XP!
I'm not going to believe it until Netcraft confirms it.
#naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
I know this is /. and facts don't mean much here but I've been using Skydrive for an year and the only place it used Silverlight was the file upload functionality. While it is true that the interface has changed the file upload functionality still uses Silverlight just like before.
I've used SkyDrive infrequently but I have only ever noticed Silverlight being used for 3 things. 1) Video playback 2) Picture albums/slide show 3) File uploading It looks like they only removed it for the first 2. SilverLight still comes up for the advanced file uploading. Also can someone show me where HTML 5 is used on the site other than CSS 3 opacity (which isn't technically HTML5 but comes along for the ride in every browser that supports HTML5) and the DOCTYPE? Please don't jump all over me if you find some HTML5, it's just not really obvious that any HTML that didn't exist in HTML 4 is there from a quick look at the page source on many of the pages:) This is a nice redesign, but it doesn't seem like anyone should be using this as a HTML 5 showcase.
Microsoft did not realize the significance of TCP/IP when they released windows 95 .net fat client platform still thinking fat clients is where it is at.
Microsoft rolled out their
Virtual Earth failed to compete with Google Earth
Failed mobile phones
Failed MP3 players
Feel free to add to the long list.
Siverlight is just a small blip because it did not get the uptake MS had hoped for. They do this all the time. They try to compete on all fronts and never excel anywhere. MS product path is littered with abandoned poorly executed ideas some of which might have made it if they only committed to it. I feel sorry for those software companies that put all their eggs in the MS basket because their .net codebase will in the not too distant future be obsolete too.
It should be clear to everyone that operating systems are no longer significant. Running fat clients locally is no longer where it is at. PC's and Laptops are no longer the core device on which applications run. So the MS tax (Windows) on every PC will come to an end. MS is already far too late to change their direction with Windows and if MS doesn't get onto the web based bandwagon with MS Office quickly they will lose that profitable market as well.
It is a pity but unavoidable that successful companies get too big and too slow to respond to changes. Although it is thanks to MS that computing has become so accessible to the masses. They failed to pay attention over the last decade and foolishly thought they could direct their market. Developers trusting anything that MS put out over the last 5 years will wish they had not, no matter the promised potential.
Google was the new kid on the block with some amazing innovation but look closely at Google today and you can see the same warning signals. It is only a matter of time before the next company will take over from them.
I was reading the comments between MS lovers/haters, and the whole discussion is a waste of time. You all are idiots.
I own a Vizio VX32L monitor. I occasionally connect a PC to it. But several Slashdot regulars have informed me that most people either A. don't know their TV can display video from a PC or B. don't see a compelling reason to buy another PC to put in the TV cabinet. See comments from FunkSoulBrother, CronoCloud (again), Altrag, hawguy (again), and Endo13.
Must be the Nokia syndrome creeping over to Redmond: start some new technology, and then dump it ...
just trolling :)
I did JSF for 5 years, went to an interview and they asked me what I thought of it. Instead of saying what I really thought, (I think its a POS) I answered in the political "Its not right for all situations". This was before Oracle bought Sun. The guy then started telling me how great is was and if it wasn't super nifty for everything why did Sun recommend it, etc. My response, if it was so great, why didn't Sun use it on their own site? Everyone in the room laughed, and I didn't get the job, not that I wanted it after that.
Microsoft, like Adobe, realize that RIA technology is a niche and should be used as such on the web. There are a few occasions when you cannot use html+js, so you need a RIA technology. I don't think msft ever claimed Silverlight was to be used to replace html on the web. It was created to compete with flash.
Silverlight (or other RIA-tech) can be used appropriately, for example for: phone-app-development, special embedded web applications (video player etc.), and on certain desktop-like web applications (kiosks, point of sale). Microsoft more or less openly reveals that this is what they are aiming for.
The only real killer app on the www these days for silverlight is video. Microsoft of course couldn't let adobe set the agenda for streaming video, and html 5 never had a shot as it only (afaik) allows displaying media files, not for example monitor the users playback of the media or have any such realtime two-way communication. Silverlight "smooth streaming" or whatever they call it, beat the only other two competitors (flash, wmp) hands down.
Everyone knew Silverlight would fail to compete with JS and Flash when it came. If you based your future on Silverlight then perhaps you are getting what you asked for.
Can I light a sig ?
Where the fuck did anybody officially say they dropped support for Silverlight?
So, Microsoft has changed one of its websites from Silverlight to HTML 5. That's a standard, so it's always A Good Thing.
Silverlight remains there, a good way to build animated user experiences; Silverlight 5 will be integrated with XNA. Having the chance to push a reduced version of my game (I am a game developer, and I can assure you this is VERY IMPORTANT TO MY COMPANY) through the browser as a demo/for betas, etc. is great. Easily deploying an application with a complex logic (nope: a dynamically typed language such as Javascript is worse than C# for complex reasoning) to many users through the browser with the possibility of right-clicking it to install it offline is another Good Thing.
So from where I sit Microsoft has done a good job because HTML 5 is better for that kind of website, and Silverlight is very alive even though it will be reduced to the only thing it was successful at: medium/large applications that must be easily deployed.
My book: Friendly F#, fun with game development and XNA; my game: Galaxy Wars by VSTeam; my gamedev language: Casanova.
If it is true that MS is adopting Silverlight (I'm not convinced it is,
Sorry, i should use preview next time - that should read "that MS is dropping Silverlight"
Are we former OS/2 users allowed to snicker yet?
For every problem, there is at least one solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
HTML5 was nowhere to be seen when Silverlight came out. It was needed back then, if only as a competitor for Flash.
To rephrase in the dog food analogy: Silverlight was the MS dog food brand in the Flash era. In the HTML5 era HTML5 is the MS dog food brand. They merely introduced a new brand. Has the Silverlight brand been discontinued, no longer offered or supported?
One more time. That's like 10th time around. First time I distinctly remember them doing this with DDE in like '92 - now OLE is king. Wait, OLE is junk, ActiveX is king; No, wait, ActiveX is junk, .NET is king, and by the way, Silverlight is king too. Oh wait...
Same with database access tech - ODBC, DAO, ADO, OLEDB, etc.
Same with GUI toolkits.
I got tired of listening to their stupid routine ten years ago and stopped concentrating on Windows and MS. Best career decision ever.
I'm not going to believe it until Netcraft confirms it.
How's this?
Microsoft has recently shifted its strategy on Silverlight as a cross-platform solution and now wants to implement standards-based HTML5 really, really, really well in Internet Explorer 9.
A quick glance at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Silverlight#Silverlight_5 shows that the next version of Silverlight is planned for the second half of 2011. (Beta available now.) New features include a BRAND NEW 3D API. Just because some site uses HTML5 has nothing to do with Microsoft's long term development plans for Silverlight, which should fall into a niche quite different from either Flash or HTML5.
Some browsers (ones not named Internet Explorer) support some fancy javascript stuff that you can use to get those things when uploading files with AJAX.
-- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
New developers tend to use whatever their employer tells them. They only have more control at startups (because those tend to skew young and don't have established tech yet) and not many startups are using MS tech.
-- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
Copernicus law that bad money replaces good money seems to be working in IT.
PC won over Apple
Intell 8088 won over Motorola 68000
Microsoft had multiple wins with inferior products:
Windows won over Apple OS and Amiga OS
MFC won over Borland OWL
Visual Basic won over Delphi
IE won over Netscape and was winning over Firefox for years.
But now Microsoft finally has really good, in some cases world class products and the tables are turned:
Excellent Windows phone 7 seems to be going nowhere. .net seems to be loosing steam. .net is abandoned.
Excellent Zune is a lost cause.
Fantastic developement environment in shape of Visual Studio and
Excellent C# probably will loose as soon as
There is something in IT that good enough often wins over excellent.
It's a safe bet to assume that many of the negative comments here are posted by people who have never studied or written a line of XAML. I'll agree that it's unclear what the future of Silverlight may be, but for designing and manipulating a user interface, XAML + .NET language of choice is light years ahead of the HTML + CSS + Javascript mess we have now.
I contend that if web browsers natively supported markup languages like XAML or Adobe's MXML, and they all had the support to download the appropriate byte code to manipulate it (.NET, ActionScript, Java, python, etc), we would see a very different web. Without the universal compatibility, HTML/CSS/Javascript has little if any advantage over the RIA environments. Given a choice, I would bet that 99/100 developers would choose the more powerful and expressive markup (XAML, MXML, etc.) and the programming language to match whatever they are using on the server side (.NET, Java, Python, etc.).
It seems that now Microsoft would rather eat dog food made elsewhere..."
OR 'used' dog food.
Anyone with a brain not controlled from Redmond knew that Silverlight was always going to be Windows only. Even if support for Linux had been better, people who buy Linux and even OSX bought it at least partially for their ill regard of MS software. Mac users might not hate MS but they also are not just going to install MS software just because an incidental site asks for it. They just continue on to another site.
The world has changed, it has changed so much that for a while (still might be the case) if you GOOGLED for CHROME, you got a PAID MS ad to the site for Inter Explorer. MS paying its BIGGEST rival to advertise a browser you can only use on a OS it already came with for "free" anyway. What is more amazing is that they showed these adds to Apple and Linux users like me. That is how much the world has changed:
MS: Here, we give this browser free with the OS, it is right there on your desktop. Oh, I see you are searching for a replacement for it, do you not want to use ours after ALL? Oh, you are on an OS it doesn't run on... well you sure you don't want to buy a new computer then?
Some people keep going on about the iPad and iPhone not having flash but everyday thousands of them are sold by an audience that doesn't care. If they don't care about flash, what do they care about silverlight? (It might or might not be installable but it sure as hell doesn't come with it by default).
And the alternative for the flash less apple devices? Android. Again, without silverlight pre-installed (if it can even be installed).
The world is not controlled by MS software anymore and what is most amazing is that few seem to care. MS has always hoped that people loved its software so much they would demand the same software to run on other devices. They thought the X-box confirmed this. It didn't (what is windows about the X-box). People are a lot more free from MS lock-in then anyone thought.
Those who actually watched the developments over the years have seen this coming. IE didn't need to totally die for that, the moment "other browsers" became more then statistical anomoly, MS domination had ended because as a website developer you could no longer do a IE only site if you had to depend on real customers.
When the boss bought a macbook, MS died a little because all of a sudden, things had to work on a non-ms OS and the boss suddenly demanded that the company became capable of dealing with non-ms solutions. Want a linux desktop? Look for a boss with a Mac.
Silverlight was pushed as the next big MS thing, that it was doomed was clear from just the fact MS claimed it would support other OS'es. That right there was MS admitting they no longer controlled the user. Any such support depended on the cooperation of not just the "other OS'es" but the users of said systems. It meant there was always going to be a high percentage of people who just didn't going to have it installed and that is not a way to push a new technology. Only those who secretly hoped to go back to the days of IE6 only websites laced with ActiveX swallowed the dog shit.
Anyone who knows that a web application has to be platform independent stayed well clear of it.
Go ahead, proof me wrong, find me a Silverlight developer who actually tested his application on non-MS software to any extent. MS shops bought into a MS sales pitch just as they always done. MS developers sure seem to have short memories.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
The CEO of Netflix is on Microsoft's board of directors. And this is why Netflix will never be allowed to work on Linux.
Should have studied history a bit more closely, if you build your business (or career) on proprietary technology controlled by somebody else you will get screwed sooner or later.
Microsoft has dumped their developers overboard many times before, and will continue to do it as long as it is convenient. At least in this case they are replacing things with relatively open standards that they can't so easily kill later on.
Flash developers are starting to learn this the hard way too, apple developers will be next.
"When in doubt, use brute force." Ken Thompson
Ding ding ding ding! You win the prize for the most common sense comment yet!