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Amazon Bypassing Publishers By Signing Authors Directly

Hugh Pickens writes "David Streitfeld reports that Amazon is aggressively wooing top authors, gnawing away at the services publishers, critics and agents used to provide. 'Everyone's afraid of Amazon,' says Richard Curtis, a longtime agent who is also an e-book publisher. 'The only really necessary people in the publishing process now are the writer and reader,' adds Russell Grandinetti, one of Amazon's top executives. 'Everyone who stands between those two has both risk and opportunity.' But publishers are fighting back at writers who publish with Amazon. In 2010 Kiana Davenport signed with a division of Penguin for The Chinese Soldier's Daughter, a Civil War love story, and received a $20,000 advance. In the meantime Davenport packaged several award-winning short stories she had written 20 years ago and packaged them in an e-book, Cannibal Nights, available on Amazon. When Penguin found out, it went 'ballistic,' accusing her of breaking her contractual promise to avoid competition, canceling her novel, and suing Davenport to recover her advance. Davenport knows her crime: 'Sleeping with the enemy? Perhaps. But now I know who the enemy is.'"

461 comments

  1. One company by ColdWetDog · · Score: 5, Funny

    One Company to rule them all, One Click to find them,
    One Company to contract with them all and in the darkness bind them
    In the Land of Profit where the Bezos lies.

    --
    Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    1. Re:One company by jazman_777 · · Score: 2

      Brilliant. But there is a certain poetic justice that Amazon inflicted on Borders and B&N, seeing how they killed so many local bookshops. Who will inflict justice on Amazon?

      --
      Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
    2. Re:One company by magarity · · Score: 2

      Who will inflict justice on Amazon?

      For what injustice does Amazon need justice inflicted in this case? They pay more to authors than the agent/publisher route and readers pay less. Sounds like win-win except the middle men who by definition don't do anything except facilitate and there's less and less to facilitate in that industry these days. I guess you like keeping on no longer needed roles out of a sense of pity and welfare?

    3. Re:One company by PCM2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But there's an implied hidden "cost" in Amazon's business practices. It's easy to say you offer the lowest prices when you've put everyone else out of business, including the shoddy big-chain bookstores that put the quality local bookstores out of business. Lack of competition in markets is bad, even when it seems to mean the customer saves a buck.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    4. Re:One company by blair1q · · Score: 1

      Seriously considering clobbering all my replies to +1 this.

    5. Re:One company by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      Around here, the local bookshops killed themselves, mostly by stocking only the current top 100 bestsellers. You come in, think "Oh look, they got like 100s of shelf meters of books here" - and then, upon closer examination, you find out that it is meter after meter of the same crap of the month with nothing interesting at all and staff that couldn't find their arse if you handed them a mirror on a stick and a map. Good riddance. I rather have a decent online store. I am not talking about chains, the small stores in my area did this shit to themselves.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    6. Re:One company by tonywong · · Score: 1

      Once karma goes past -20 the IP address of the post should automatically be shown...then you could foe the IP address to ignore or human flesh search engine them. >.>

    7. Re:One company by Man+On+Pink+Corner · · Score: 2

      ROFL. Yes, there's an "implied hidden cost" for deadweight middlemen like Penguin.

    8. Re:One company by honkycat · · Score: 1

      If Amazon is so successful at this that no one else can compete, then that does create a problem. However, that competition doesn't have to be brick and mortar stores---if those are less efficient and unable to compete on their own benefits, then they will and perhaps should die out. That doesn't preclude web-based competition for Amazon.

      (Note: "should" is a tricky word. I like many of the benefits of brick and mortar bookstores, but the real question is whether we are willing to pay the premium to support their business model in order to keep them afloat. If not, then for all that we might moan about it, it's inevitable that they'll die.)

    9. Re:One company by Fished · · Score: 5, Insightful

      the shoddy big-chain bookstores that put the quality local bookstores out of business.

      You mean the "shoddy" Barnes and Noble that had 100,000 books as compared to the "quality" local bookstore that had 10,000? Or was it that the "shoddy" Barnes & Noble could get me the book they didn't have in two days, but it took the "quality" local bookstore two weeks? Or was it that the "shoddy" Barnes and Noble sold Christian bestsellers at 10-20% below cover price, while the "quality" local Christian bookstore marked them up above cover price? Or the "shoddy" B&N database that let them find just about any book, however obscure, foreign or domestic, and how long it would take them to get it, but the "quality" local bookstore that often just couldn't or wouldn't get the book I wanted?

      Thanks for clarifying.

      There were and are many good reasons for supporting your local booksellers. But, generally, superior quality isn't one of them.

      --
      "He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
    10. Re:One company by silverglade00 · · Score: 1

      then you could foe the IP address

      Because everyone has one single static IP for their entire life?

    11. Re:One company by mister_playboy · · Score: 1

      Don't browse at -1 if you aren't man enough to handle it. :)

      --
      Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law ::: Love is the law, love under will
    12. Re:One company by PCM2 · · Score: 1

      There were and are many good reasons for supporting your local booksellers. But, generally, superior quality isn't one of them.

      Really. So would you care to name any? I usually don't support things that I think are of low quality, but your approach sounds interesting.

      Myself, I've generally been repelled by Barnes & Noble stores. Their atmosphere is lousy, their selection of 100,000 books is usually scattered all over the place like the aisles at a Toys R Us, and their prices really aren't all that great for anything but the biggest mass-market bestsellers (which are seldom what I'd want to read). I much prefer a small, friendly store where the staff takes time to recommend good new releases and which offers a mix of new and used books. (Maybe with a cat -- a good bookstore cat is invaluable.) Both B&N and Borders have vanished from San Francisco now, and good riddance. It's just a shame that they couldn't have gone before some of the best of the Bay Area's independent bookstores closed their doors for good.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    13. Re:One company by Fished · · Score: 2

      The story may be different in very large cities, and urban cores. I wouldn't know because I've never lived in one. It may also be different if your tastes in books aren't quite so esoteric as mine. The reality, for me, today, is Amazon. But, before Amazon came along, Barnes and Noble was a revelation because, unlike the "quality" local bookstore, they could and would actually order obscure titles in a reasonable period of time. Since then, I've moved to a college town, and I tend to go to the university bookstore that can handle my tastes just fine as well. But I still tend to go to Amazon because they are much faster and much cheaper.

      --
      "He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
    14. Re:One company by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      the problem is that the middle men have a strong bargaining position than the individual authors do with amazon because they represent many authors and the authors have a better bargaining position with the middlemen because there are a bunch to choose from. Not terribly concerned though since Amazon is also a middleman that is not really needed in the long run.

    15. Re:One company by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      then you could foe the IP address

      Because everyone has one single static IP for their entire life?

      No, but when they keep getting kicked off their ISPs for incurring the wrath of Slashdot ping-flood armada, they might start to think twice about posting shit like that.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    16. Re:One company by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      Seriously considering clobbering all my replies to +1 this.

      Yes ... if I had any mod points left I'd have glad spared him one.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    17. Re:One company by EdIII · · Score: 2

      Who will inflict justice on Amazon?

      Duh.

      A bunch of shoe less midgets walking through the forest on their epic quest.

    18. Re:One company by gtall · · Score: 1

      Yes, well there is a problem with stocking a lot of non-100 bestsellers, that being you don't sell very many. Most of your stock simply sits there because of the two people interested in any one title, one has already bought it from you once and other has their own copy from some place else.

      There simply isn't a way for small bookstores to compete. And it isn't just bookstores. Amazon is one stop shopping, they have damn near everything. All you need is a credit card and a bit of time to wait for it to show up at your house. No wandering among the proles at Wally-World, no fighting traffic to get to the store and they might not even have it, etc.

      At what point does Amazon become too big?

    19. Re:One company by zach_the_lizard · · Score: 1

      In my experience the local bookstore duckweed quite a bit. There was a terrible selection of books, almost as bad as the likes of Walmart and Target. Nothing technical at all, terrible sci fi section. Borders, Barnes and noble, and the like were a massive step up in quality. Perhaps in a city a local store would be great, but here they were more expensive for worse quality, worse selection, and worse ability to order anything.

      --
      SSC
    20. Re:One company by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 1

      Please elucidate this "hidden cost" for me, for us. Please tell me why I should deal with pretentious owners; with 80% of shelf space devoted to bored house wives, retired women and anyone else avidly following Oprah's booklist; shelves stocked with books they think I should read rather than those I want to read; a technical book section whose titles overwhelmingly end in "for Dummies"; two to three week turn around for books they need to order; cover price; etc. What is so worthy of me abandoning next day deliver if I need it? Why should I give up a selection whose only rival is the Library of Congress? Please explain to us lowly imbeciles who don't get what you in your infinite wisdom do.

      --
      Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
    21. Re:One company by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Brilliant.

      But there is a certain poetic justice that Amazon inflicted on Borders and B&N, seeing how they killed so many local bookshops.

      Who will inflict justice on Amazon?

      Time.

    22. Re:One company by mabhatter654 · · Score: 1

      Time to pull out Meg Ryan and Tom Hanks for the next movie like "Sleepless in Seattle" and "You've Got Mail"!

      Discuss plot...

    23. Re:One company by ChrisMaple · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Many authors need editors in order to produce a worthwhile product. A few don't. Expect the average quality of writing to decline.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    24. Re:One company by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      that put the quality local bookstores out of business.

      Last time I went to a "quality local bookstore" instead of B&N or BAM, they didn't have the book I was looking for.

      So I asked them if they could order it for me. They said yes...

      Just as soon as they had orders for 30 copies, they'd get the book, and let me know....

      Since then, I deal with bookstores that can sell me what I want, when I want it. B&N, BAM, Amazon, whichever is closest to hand when I need a book.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    25. Re:One company by Eskarel · · Score: 2

      The problem with Barnes and Noble is not that they were fundamentally bad, it was that they were amazon but with higher fixed costs. You couldn't go to B&N or Borders and find someone who loved books and knew enough about them to recommend something to you, because those people would have been more expensive than teenagers. You couldn't go to B&N and find the obscure book on the shelf because B&N didn't specialize in anything. In the end, you went to B&N or Borders, and paid them more than Amazon charged. If you were looking for something fairly common you could pick it up in store, otherwise you had to wait for them to order it and come back to pick it up. If I order a book off Amazon it's at my doorstep in less than a week and I live on the other side of the world, if I order an e-book it's on my kindle in a few minutes, and Amazon's "recommends" has actually pointed me at some really good books.

      A local bookstore can offer you things that Amazon cannot, specialization, personal service, atmosphere, etc, but B&N and Borders did none of these things, instead they made the same mistake that brick and mortar retailers all over the world have done and tried to compete on price and efficiency with a company with dramatically lower fixed costs, it didn't work for them anymore than it's worked for anyone else.

    26. Re:One company by Eskarel · · Score: 3, Informative

      Or expect Amazon to hire editors.

    27. Re:One company by microbox · · Score: 1

      Who will inflict justice on Amazon?

      The financial services industry

      --

      Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
    28. Re:One company by AzariahK · · Score: 2

      And expect the variety of writing made available, both stories and styles, to go way up. Did we really need gatekeepers? We're about to find out.

    29. Re:One company by KingAlanI · · Score: 1

      Yes, in various industries, big companies can in turn lose out to even bigger companies
      K-mart lagging behind Walmart and Target, for example.
      In my area (Rochester NY), the Chase-Pitkin home improvement store chain went out of business presumably thanks to Home Depot and Lowe's

      --
      I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
    30. Re:One company by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One Site to rule them all, One Click to find them,
      One Contract over all with DRM to bind them
      In the Land of Profit where the Bezos lies.

    31. Re:One company by chrismarklee · · Score: 0

      Amazon in California is sponsoring a ballot proposition to stop sales tax on internet sales Chris Please visit my website for all your Fillmore Income Tax needs.

    32. Re:One company by hicksw · · Score: 1

      Or expect Amazon to hire editors.

      Mod parent Funny

    33. Re:One company by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Who will inflict justice on Amazon?

      For what injustice does Amazon need justice inflicted in this case? They pay more to authors than the agent/publisher route and readers pay less. Sounds like win-win except the middle men who by definition don't do anything except facilitate and there's less and less to facilitate in that industry these days. I guess you like keeping on no longer needed roles out of a sense of pity and welfare?

      I'm sure everything will work out really well for authors when they're negotiating directly with a large corporation like Amazon.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    34. Re:One company by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Penguin has done more to improve the overall level of culture and intelligence in society than any number of toy-makers like Steve Jobs.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    35. Re:One company by tehcyder · · Score: 2

      No one would deny that large chains of bookshops can charge less and have a bigger stock selection, that's fucking self evident. But they're just selling product, whereas the bookshop owner/manager is actually interested in books.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    36. Re:One company by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Or expect Amazon to hire editors.

      So if Penguin employ editors they're just middleman costs cruelly depriving authors of income and putting up the cost for readers, but if Amazon do it it's OK because they're on the internet?

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    37. Re:One company by Man+On+Pink+Corner · · Score: 1

      That's great. Now, thanks to the "toymaker" and others like him, their services are no longer needed.

    38. Re:One company by vakuona · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, you will need a middleman, unless you have become extremely successful, and can self-publish and market yourself without needing the exposure that a middleman gives you. That is why most artists will sell more through iTunes than through, for example, their own website.

    39. Re:One company by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Many authors need editors in order to produce a worthwhile product. A few don't. Expect the average quality of writing to decline.

      Authors need editors most of the time, but a good editor doesn't necessarily have to be an employee of a rapacious publisher. I hire my own editor.

    40. Re:One company by mcvos · · Score: 1

      Are ebooks even worse than some of the crap that gets published on paper? I've seen plenty of paper books, well after their first printing, that still looked like no editor or proofreader had ever touched it.

      In any case, my impression is that self-publishing writers arrange their own proofreading and editing, whereas writers with traditional publishers rely on the publisher for it, who cuts some costs there and publishes an unedited piece of crap.

    41. Re:One company by jimicus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Exactly. I can think of quite a few businesses that a similar analogy can be applied to:

      Here in the UK a lot of neighbourhood pubs have gone. And there's this fantasy going around that the pubs that have gone were all selling a wide range of high-quality beer and good food at a reasonable price; when they closed down it came as a great surprise.

      But that's all it is. A fantasy. Without even thinking I can name several pubs that haven't been decorated in years, have walls that are still heavily nicotine stained despite the fact that smoking was banned in public places in 2007; carpet that's threadbare in places and sticky in others. The toilets are a health hazard, they don't do food (or if they do it tastes like they cooked it in the toilet), they've got a lousy range of beer, an equally lousy choice of cider (considering this is Somerset this is practically a criminal offence!), they don't feel particularly welcoming when you go in and they charge prices more commensurate with a fancy city-centre bar.

      Specifically, a fancy city-centre bar that serves good food, has clean toilets, a floor you don't stick to and walls that if they're a yellow-brown colour, are obviously intended to be.

      These are the pubs that are going out of business. The world has changed and they haven't.

    42. Re:One company by Sparrow1492 · · Score: 1

      Time to pull out Meg Ryan and Tom Hanks for the next movie . . .

      As what, the romantic couple's grandparents? These two ain't getting any younger.

    43. Re:One company by rwv · · Score: 1

      Amazon runs a program called Vine where a vendor can pay them money to they give away items for free to people known for writing high-quality reviews. There is scepticism that Vine Reviews are truly objective because - you know - everything is better when it's free. A savvy indie author would drop $300 to Amazon to give away 20 copies of their book and generate maybe 10 reviews over the course of the next few months. If the reviews are good, Amazon rank goes up. If the reviews are bad, rank goes down.

      There are two reasons that the Big Six exist... (1) to print dead tree versions of manuscripts, and (2) to filter out the crap. Digital has eliminated a lot of the demand for (1) [thank E-Ink!] and Amazon is big enough that they have the ability to crowdsource (2) for everybody's benefit.

    44. Re:One company by Eskarel · · Score: 1

      No, if Penguin makes authors sign deals which are worse for authors than the ones Amazon does and charges a higher price for the end product then Amazon will go out of business because they're not providing their middle men service at good value.

    45. Re:One company by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      Must be great where you live. Your environment is the exception, though, and most of the rest of us are stuck in places where a B&N is a huge upgrade over the other offerings.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    46. Re:One company by dainbug · · Score: 1

      Its going to be individual authors who, get a far better deal selling their books through Amazon then they could have gotten with the established publishers. the will start to think, hey, if I can get 50% with Amazon, far better then before, how much can I get if I do it myself? ( carry the one....) A LOT MORE.

    47. Re:One company by nobaloney · · Score: 1

      Penguin has done more to improve the overall level of culture and intelligence in society than any number of toy-makers like Steve Jobs.

      For a segment of society, the segment that can learn to read from teachers, you're probably right. But for those whom we haven't figured out how to teach (we often call them learning disabled), many can teach themselves if they have a reason. Texting may be a toy for you and I, but my godson went through school until he was eighteen, and went to programs that were supposed to be good at teaching kids such as he. But he didn't teach himself to read until he wanted to text.

      Funny thing was his parents considered a cell-phone to be a toy; he didn't get one until he became an older teen and started roaming out of his neighborhood. Then they got him a phone so in case he got lost he could call home and someone could find him.

      He's teaching himself a lot now that he knows he can.

    48. Re:One company by nobaloney · · Score: 1

      You're spamming us Chris. And you're also wrong. Amazon gave in to the state; they're now in favor of a national sales tax on Internet sales so everyone will have to pay it.

    49. Re:One company by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is a cost. That cost is an abundance of choice and no filter. Some argue that this is a good thing but with this direct to consumer business model prepare for crappy books to make it to market (A lot of them). At the same time though we can also expect some unknown Authors who are likely spectacular able to get their work read by millions.

    50. Re:One company by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You poor fool.

      I remember meeting a couple of guys once and suggested eating out. They didn't want real food. They wanted Taco Bell. They honestly would have been happy eating shit, probably because they had been so well advertised to that they didn't know there was a difference between real food and shit. Turns out upon questioning them that they had never eaten real food before because their parents had been suckered by the advertising as well and had never exposed them to real food.

      I've seen dozens of awesome privately owned bookstores, places with charm, comfort, excellent personal service and ALL with greater diverse variety than the corporate stores which make money by only pushing popular items, having high turn-over, using manipulative psychological tactics, and using anti-competitive business practices. Yes, they can sell for less, but so what? Who wants to read the loser zombie bullshit we've been instructed to desire? I have my own tastes, thank-you, as to all real humans.

      If your experience in their book barns is dehumanizing, and it IS dehumanizing, then that's too high a cost for cheap shit. If you don't realize it's a dehumanizing experience, then you have a lot to learn about being human. Despite the programming we've been inundated with since childhood, our lives are not actually supposed to serve a corporate bottom line. But if you want to be a Borg, go for it. Sadly, advising you not to kid yourself about this is impossible.

      Why?

      Because the simple fact that any of this needs to be pointed out to you means your brain isn't working well enough to recognize that it isn't working. Closed loop brain-damage brought to you courtesy of Corporate America.

      Want out? Stop consuming shit.

    51. Re:One company by ckaminski · · Score: 1

      Annie's Book Stop, a small chain here in Mass/RI in the late 80's, early 90's would have weekly book drops. This was back before the huge upsurge in UPS and FedEx, so it was worth it. Crazy things I had to look up on microfiche, but could have a week later if I wanted.

      Or Waldenbooks, where thanks to generous family I built my huge-ass and nearly complete collection of 2nd edition AD&D gear.

      But nostalgia aside, I'm happy to have Amazon, and have been a customer nearly since day 1.

    52. Re:One company by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shortening the distance between the Content Creator and the Content Consumer is the future. This is what the RIAA and MPAA have been fighting so hard against.

    53. Re:One company by ckaminski · · Score: 1

      Amazon will lose once it's tax-free status goes away. They run with razor-thin margins (or else they wouldn't have sweatshop warehouses). That margin evaporates if the cost of doing business with Amazon goes up 3-9%. As a merchant storefront? They can continue to make money, but only on stuff you can't find locally.

      Note that by losing I don't mean Amazon is going to die - it just loses a lot of it's advantage compared to B&N and just waiting for a book to arrive. Especially if you have to pay tax AND shipping costs.

    54. Re:One company by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or even the writers, themselves.

    55. Re:One company by Risen888 · · Score: 1

      If Amazon didn't have Penguin to undercut, they'd be charging the same damn thing and you know it.

      --
      Hey, I finally got my first freak! Took you long enough!
    56. Re:One company by Sir+Mal+Fet · · Score: 1

      Many authors need editors in order to produce a worthwhile product. A few don't. Expect the average quality of writing to decline.

      ...Or expect a service of editor-for-hire to appear. If there are freelance writers created by this change, why not freelance editors? I'll be surprised if it doesn't exist already.

    57. Re:One company by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you'll find Amazon do offer an editorial service at a price. And most authors might not bother to pay for it, but I suspect a lot will and will get a better quality product, and as such more sales.

  2. Amazon is just another publisher. by Kenja · · Score: 2

    If the contract gave exclusive distribution rights to Penguin then the author is in breach of contract. Seems simple to me.

    --

    "Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
    1. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by 0123456 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Amazon is a retailer; it's only recently become a publisher as well. From what they've said, one of the reasons why established authors have been signing up with Amazon as a publisher is that their contracts are far more author-friendly than trade publishers.

    2. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by CanHasDIY · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The contract gave Penguin exclusive rights to The Chinese Soldier's Daughter, not every single piece ever written by the author.

      Assuming so is treading in dangerous waters.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    3. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Kenja · · Score: 1

      Which is fine, but of they had an existing contract they would be in breach of it. If the penalties do not out weight the benefits, more power to them. But they dont get to complain about breaking the contract when they are willingly doing so.

      --

      "Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
    4. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by LWATCDR · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That depends. They got a deal for the novel "The Chinese Soldier's Daughter". She repackaged a collection short stories and sold them on Amazon.
      Did the publisher have any rights to those short stories? She did sign a non-compete but does a collection of short stories compete with a novel?
      At this point we are into lawyer land where logic and reason do not apply.
      Kind of like the Twilight Zone except without the almost universal just outcome.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    5. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Have you read the contract she signed? Thought not.
      You are assuming things as well.

    6. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by lennier1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Of course. If the whole chain is in-house they'll be able to eliminate a lot of unnecessary overhead, making it more efficient and profitable than having to deal with external business partners stuck in the 19th century.

    7. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by c0d3g33k · · Score: 1

      Have you? Thought not.

    8. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by msauve · · Score: 4, Insightful

      One can easily make up "if this, then that" scenarios. But, they're all worthless.

      The author says she didn't violate the contract. The publisher's actions imply that they think she did. From the author's description, it sounds like a "no compete" clause, not an "exclusivity" one. The author says one of the e-published works was actually published prior to their contract. The e-published works were short story collections, which according to the author, contained subject matter different than the contracted novel.

      She says that the works were previously rejected by the "big six" publishers, which includes Penguin. From that, it seems to me that Penguin, by their prior rejection of the work, had already determined that it wasn't competitive.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    9. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And if you bothered to RTFA you'll see that the contract covered a book, not past collections which she had sold multiple times.

    10. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by haystor · · Score: 5, Interesting

      There is significant case law on the matter. Further, an advance of $20k to not work in the entire field of writing for 2 years won't get any traction in court.

      Non compete in this sense means those characters/story/universe don't get presented somewhere else. That the publisher gets first release of not just the book, but anything to do with the book.

      This is bullying an author, plain and simple. (if the story is as the author has written)

      --
      t
    11. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by wierd_w · · Score: 1

      But was the publisher gaining exclusive rights to the civil war love story, or exclusive rights to "the author herself"?

      Was the publisher asserting that it had contracted *all* intellectualy proprty from the author for a paltry 20k? Surely only in our radical world of absurd intellectual property law could such a moronic position gain any traction.

      As pointed out, the author published a totally different body of work, totally unrelated to the civil war love story she signed the advance contract for.

      This would be like apple buying a software package meant to change themes on an ipad, then aggressively suing the author of that software for daring to release a fart app under the gpl.

      Only an IP lawyer could even begin to conflate the two works as being the same, and therefor as breach of contract, unless the publisher had willfully engaged in disequitable practices to force the contract to be over all works created by the author, be it past, present, or future. Last I checked, disequitable and one sided contracts were of dubious legality.

      I see this as little more than barratry from the publisher.

    12. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The question is, do you really want Amazon to be the only place you can get books?

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    13. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      According to the author they were two entirely different works, and even different subject matter, and she doesn't believe she was in breach of contract...

      Now if she signed some sort of "I'll publish everything through you" exclusive contract, or right to first sale of all her works, or some similar contract, she may well have been in breach, but that's not what it sounds like here.

    14. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Since the universe is the civil war isn't the idea of exclusiveness a bit silly I mean since the author is working in historical time and not a fictional creation of her own?

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    15. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2

      If the contract gave exclusive distribution rights to Penguin then the author is in breach of contract. Seems simple to me.

      It is extremely common for publishing contracts to feature a reversion clause where, once the book goes out of print(for a generally agreed-upon definition of 'out of print', which, incidentally, is a concept being shaken up a bit by the fact that many of these contracts were written before it was economic to keep a book 'in print' by listing it basically for free in some electronic database at a relatively stiff sticker price and print-on-demand-ing it if anybody actually bites) the rights revert to the author.

      For a bunch of short stories, published 20 years ago, and unrelated to the book being written for publication today, it is quite likely that they had reverted, if their had ever been exclusive rights in the first place.

      What makes me suspect that one or the other of these is so is that Penguin resorted to indirect threats and retaliation against an unrelated project, rather than just hitting the author for copyright infringement or breach of contract RE: the short story collection. If they actually had a case(either by having purchased the copyright, or by having purchased exclusive right to publication), they would have had very strong ground to crush the author for publishing elsewhere. They didn't...

    16. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by DrgnDancer · · Score: 3, Informative

      Depends how the contract is worded. The author seems to think she gave Penguin exclusivity on her new book, not her old stuff. I've never heard of a publishing company having a fit when you publish old stuff (previously published no less, just bound up in a new collection), while working on a book for them. It's possible that Penguin writes their contacts that way and the author simply misunderstood or didn't read carefully enough, but it seems really odd to me. It sounds like Penguin is interpreting a non-compete clause rather more liberally than is traditional in order to punish the author for going through Amazon. I don't have all the facts of course, she may have legitimately broken faith with them, but from what we have that doesn't appear to be that case.

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    17. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 1

      If the contract gave exclusive distribution rights to Penguin then the author is in breach of contract. Seems simple to me.

      You must not have read the article at all. She sold a new book through Penguin. She then took a bunch of her other, older stories -- stories that Penguin likely turned down publishing -- and offered them for sale through Amazon. This was an entirely separate book, and Penguin dumped her for that. Penguin never had exclusive distribution rights for everything that she'd ever produced in her life, but they threw all of their toys out of the param anyway. How can they claim that a no-compete agreement covers that?

      Given how Penguin is interpreting this, no author should ever sign with them again -- unless you like life on The Plantation.

      --
      "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
    18. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We don't know because none of us has seen the contract she signed. She may well have signed one with stipulations in it that she would not publish with any other author until... paperback of the work in question was finished, any new forwards/revisions/etc were done, who knows what.

      If her contract didn't stipulate any of that then they are blowing smoke and she's free to ignore them till she shows them up in court. But if those are in the contract, she's gonna have to pay $$$ for breaking a deal she signed.

    19. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Joehonkie · · Score: 1

      You can self-publish to other e-bookstores as well, and most people seem to do at least B&N.

    20. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The question is, do you really want Amazon, thepiratebay, 1000 private trackers, rapidshare, hotfile, fileserve, and use^H^H^Hfightclub to be the only places you can get books?

      FTFY

    21. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by jandrese · · Score: 1

      Eh, big publishers almost always have abusive clauses like this in their contracts. Authors have been griping for years about it, but what can they do, the publishers hold all of the cards.

      Except now there's an alternative, and the publishers must be shitting bricks if they realize that they're going to have real competition for the first time ever. At least they can be pretty sure that this author won't fight them in court, $20k isn't enough to pay for a lawyer of any merit for a case that is likely to drag on for years if she fights it. The only monkey wrench Penguin has to worry about is if some lawyer takes up the case pro-bono.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    22. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah, I wonder if that is the problem - the short stories (or one of them) had the same characters? It would not be the first time an author based a novel on characters that author had previously created in a short story format.

    23. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, but I'm not claiming that she didn't give rights up for additional works/time in the contract because I haven't read it.. CanHasYIY is.

    24. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      Yes

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    25. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      to *new* stories possibly, but these were written 20 years before said contract... thereby the contract does not apply... or at least that would be my take.
      Poor penguin... gonna go belly up.

    26. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, but all that doesn't matter a whit. Just ask Prince.

      He was signed up with a label and wasn't allowed to record any music except with them for a certain period of time/number of albums. It doesn't matter if the music was of the same type/(roughly equivalent to characters/story/universe). They essentially owned the name 'Prince' at that point, which is the major reason he was known as 'the symbol' for quite a while.

      Knowing what the contract specified is important. Neither she or Penguin have shown the contract, so we are all just guessing at what it actually did say.

    27. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 1

      Amazon is the only place I do get books, so ...

    28. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by nedlohs · · Score: 2

      If the publisher thought she had they'd be sueing, surely? Espeically considering they seem to want to punish the author.

      Seems more likely (without ever having seen the contract or even the "normal" version of one) that they are pissed and using some "right to cancel" clause to say she has to return the advance and they give her back the rights. Or even just deciding to eat the sunk cost and sit on the work for the length of their contract without publishing it - and offering to cancel the deal if she returns the deposit as a separate item.

      But it's all guesswork without seeing the contract and communications, which isn't going to happen.

    29. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      It's still a fictional creation of her own. It's just that parts of the background were researched instead of created. She could write another Civil War book to be published somewhere else, but she couldn't write another Civil War book featuring these characters or the fictional elements of the background and publish it somewhere else.

    30. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      The rights to the author's work might be worth more than $20k. Especially to the author.

    31. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by m50d · · Score: 1

      No, but where else can I buy a book in 10 seconds while I'm on the train? (This is in the UK, so no B&N here). I'd like amazon to have some competition, but other booksellers will have to raise their game, I'm not going to stoop for them. It's exactly the same for them acting as a publisher.

      --
      I am trolling
    32. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The question is, do you really want Amazon to be the only place you can get books?"

      Last week I got 15000 eBooks not from Amazon, no problemo.

    33. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by anyGould · · Score: 2

      And considering she has a lawyer involved, it's a safe bet that the contract doesn't say anything of the sort - it's one of the basic gotchas of publishing.

    34. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by jazman_777 · · Score: 2

      Seems simple to me.

      When it comes to law, nothing is as simple as it seems.

      Step 1: Check your common sense at the door.

      --
      Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
    35. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by gknoy · · Score: 1

      Her lawyer pointed out the same: it's not breach of contract. So, instead, they seem to have cancelled her novel contract w/ them out of spite.

    36. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by EraserMouseMan · · Score: 1

      People posed the same question back when Apple let artists publish music directly to iTunes. Last time I checked Apple didn't exactly become the only game in town. Amazon is not not in the publishing biz anymore than Apple is in the music biz. Amazon and Apple just want to sell you cool electronic gadgets.

    37. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is with companies having exclusivity rights; especially when the rights extend beyond the contracted work.
      If company A has the largest customer base and sells books at $10, giving $7 to the publisher (read: author), and nobody else can match that deal from both the sales price and author price perspectives...fine, authors should go with A.
      But when company A tells its publishers/authors that using their services grants them full exclusivity, nobody has the opportunity to match A's deal; leaving authors and customers to use company A exclusively to access the work. Eventually, company A (in part due to being so well established in other ways, including internet architecture, and having billions to run new divisions at a loss) gets a disproportionately high market share, such that other companies can't afford to build out (or rent) the processing power and bandwidth, contract lawyers, etc..
      Eventually company A is the only one that sells e-books; its the go-to site. Anyone else that tries to get into the market has to be able to develop the infrastructure, and find -new- content from -new- authors (assuming, as in this case, that the exclusivity agreement extends beyond commissioned works), as all other content is already exclusively contracted. The barrier to entry is so high that company A doesn't need to rely upon customer or author/publisher loyalty, and they don't need to rely upon subsidizing their business model to offer the best deal: they now offer the only deal.

    38. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      This is in the UK, so no B&N here

      I was reading recently that WH Smiths and Waterstones may be setting up their own e-book stores and e-readers.

      Of course having a dozen different stores with a dozen different incompatible readers doesn't really help book buyers. But so long as the books are DRM-free, they can be converted.

    39. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Well it doesn't really matter except in the abstract. The collection of short stories all takes place in the Pacific islands and seems to set in modern times. So unless the fictional universe covers the entire earth from the civil war up till now it just doesn't matter.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    40. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by blair1q · · Score: 1

      I haven't read it, but did it not also require her to shop any other project to them first while they're working on this one? A noncompete is usually either very specific, or very specifically very broad, so it should be pretty easy to figure out.

    41. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

      If the whole chain is in-house they'll be able to eliminate a lot of unnecessary overhead

      The important part of the chain is distribution and marketing.
      That's why you sign up with a publisher and it's why musicians sign up with a label.

      Anyone can hire an editor and self publish, but getting content in front of eyeballs is the hard part.
      Amazon is its own distribution channel and if they can market the material appropriately,
      there's almost no need for traditional publishing houses.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    42. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by PCM2 · · Score: 2

      I can totally see Penguin's position.

      Penguin puts up $20,000 to publish a book by an author. The contract specifies that the author must do a certain amount of publicity to help sell the book. That might be something as easy as calling up a radio show and saying, "I have a new novel coming out from Penguin." Now, from what I'm reading this book hasn't even been published yet. In the meantime, the same author pulls out a stack of old short stories and publishes them on her own. From now on, whenever she calls up a radio show she'll be saying, "I have a new novel coming out from Penguin and I have a collection of short stories available now from Amazon." Which is the radio listener likely to go out and buy -- the one that hasn't even come out yet or the one they can get today? And having bought one book by the author, do they really have budget for a second, whenever it does ship? What if they read the short stories -- which are old, and not edited by the Penguin editors -- and decide they're no good? The short stories might not reflect the quality of the book the Penguin bought and edited, but they set the customer's expectation for any future works by the author, so they pass.

      I think the people who are characterizing this contractual relationship as some kind of indentured servitude are a little naïve. Most people who hand you a lump sum of $20,000, up front, product unseen, are going to require a few things of you. For you not to directly compete with your own products seems like a reasonable expectation, provided the terms are laid out clearly.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    43. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by PCM2 · · Score: 1

      If I remember correctly, authors get better terms if they publish exclusively with Amazon.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    44. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by haystor · · Score: 2

      That's typical for a music contract.

      It is pretty much unheard of for a book contract, especially at the $20k advance level. Publishers know writers are writing all the time on numerous topics.

      Also, music is music. Contracts are made for the next "album". You can't writer a different album when they have dibs on the next one. Authors receive an advance for a particular work. The publisher knows the work they are buying and in this case they know fully well that the already existant work that they rejected is *not* the work they were buying.

      --
      t
    45. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by PCM2 · · Score: 1

      In the U.S., the majority of the readers actually are compatible. Most of them now support epub format with Adobe DRM -- Kindle being the notable exception. Barnes & Noble uses its own flavor of Adobe DRM for its online store, so I think you must have a Nook e-reader to buy books from the B&N store. But there are several independent stores that offer books in epub format, and all of those will work on the Nook. Also, most libraries offer e-book lending via a company called Overdrive, which delivers books using Adobe Digital Editions software, which works with a variety of different readers. It's really only Amazon that has been trying to lock people into a proprietary reader/platform.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    46. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by PCM2 · · Score: 1

      Non compete in this sense means those characters/story/universe don't get presented somewhere else.

      No, it's a business contract. It has nothing to do with fanboi "world building." Non-compete means she agrees to promote this novel and not promote some other work from a different publisher at the same time. The concept seems pretty clear -- if I'm paying you to work for my company, you're not allowed to recruit customers for your side business on my dime. Whether this particular contractual language holds up in court is another matter, but I have a suspicion it will.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    47. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not? And torrentz.eu, if that counts.

    48. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The question is, do you really want Amazon to be the only place you can get books?

      The new guy is always better than the existing ones - because their competing. To hell with all of Hollywood and it's monopoly on art I say - recycled publishers of all times with a decade long shelf-life would be ideal for all mankind - hell, we might even breed less whores and degenerates.

    49. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      This isn't about "rights". This is about an ADVANCE gived before any of the work is done, in CASH.

      You're comparing apples to tractors here.

    50. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by PCM2 · · Score: 1

      She says that the works were previously rejected by the "big six" publishers, which includes Penguin. From that, it seems to me that Penguin, by their prior rejection of the work, had already determined that it wasn't competitive.

      No, that only means they determined it wasn't publishable. Now that it has been published, it's out there on the shelf, so the new volume has to compete with it whether Penguin thinks the stories are any good or not. In fact, the situation is actually worse now from Penguin's perspective, because instead of one book by the author being on the shelf, now there are two. There's a 50/50 chance that a reader might pick up one or the other -- and Penguin knows one of them is no good. That's a problem, because if a reader reads a bad book by an author, they're likely to never read another book by that author again, and publishers don't make money publishing authors who only sell one book.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    51. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      I haven't read it, but did it not also require her to shop any other project to them first while they're working on this one?

      Not according to TFA.

      First off, the works published in the collection had been published previously, and one of the collections in question was published before the author submitted The Chinese Soldier's Daughter was ever submitted to Penguin.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    52. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by m50d · · Score: 1

      They are at least compatible with each other, but they're using DRM and their books can't be viewed on the Kindle (IIRC). It's strikingly similar to the early days of the ipod, which gives me hope that they'll eventually come around to DRM-free, but until then I'll stick with amazon.

      --
      I am trolling
    53. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Savantissimo · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Not only were the short story collections she published with Amazon already published by other publishers, they had been submitted to the Big 6 publisher who is currently breaching its contract. The Big 6 publisher had specifically said that they did not want to publish the short story collections, and the author has the rejection notices to prove it.

      So the publisher basically hasn't got a leg to stand on. Their interpretation of the contract is void, in restraint of trade, tortured to justify their fear and hatred of the possibility of any competition from Amazon, even when no such threat exists in this case. Further, they are trying to effectively exert ownership over works that are not only NOT under contract, but had specifically been rejected by them, and to claim rights to put out of print without further compensation all the author's past works and works up to two years in the future (when they are contractually obligated to publish her novel).

      She has an excellent chance of prevailing in court, for far more than the advance - this firm is trying to destroy her career, to make sure she is never published by anyone but Amazon if she publishes anything with Amazon. This is really a case that the NY AG and the Justice Department could slam-dunk on multiple counts, too.

      --
      "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" - Patrick Henry
    54. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by PCM2 · · Score: 1

      I think you're blowing the case out of proportion.

      Let's say you go to a publisher, and you have six completed manuscripts for six different novels. The publisher reads them and likes them all. "Great," you say, "then go ahead and publish them all, and we'll have a big advertising push to promote the six great new novels by Nom du Keyboard."

      The publisher will refuse. The publisher will suggest, instead, that it publish one of your novels every 18 months or so for the next few years. Because if it published them all at once, each of the volumes would be competing with the others. None would sell as well as they would if they were published on their own.

      So let's say you try to get clever. You storm off in a huff but leave the first publisher with the rights to publish one of your six novels. Then you take the others and you shop them around to all the other publishing houses. You tell them, "These novels are great! Penguin said so and I'm sure you'll think so, too. In fact, Penguin is publishing one of my other novels this summer, so you could publish one of these this summer, too, and ride in on the publicity!"

      The second publisher, again, would refuse.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    55. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Jumperalex · · Score: 1

      Nothing stops those other publishers from offering similar terms as Amazon. Well, sheer greed and stupidity does, but nothing else. It isn't like amazon actually has some huge advantage. Those publishing houses still have quite the shoe-in on distribution, marketing, editing etc. They just need to reexamine their business methods. Maybe they could even patent the new method ;-) j/k

      --
      If you can't be good, be good at it!
    56. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by DogDude · · Score: 1

      People in generally are pretty stupid. As the replies here indicate, many people clearly just don't care.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    57. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Savantissimo · · Score: 2

      The publisher had rejected these works that were later published on Amazon. These rejections happened before the publisher accepted her novel. The short story collections were published elsewhere before the novel was accepted, and went out of print (or at least contract) before the novel was accepted. One of the two collections was republished on Amazon before the novel contract was signed, the other was republished after the contract was signed.

      In any event, the publisher can not claim rights over past works not a part of the contract, nor can it interfere with her publishing other works which are not a part of the contract. She is not an employee, and cannot be bound by contract terms in restraint of trade, or impairing her ability to earn a living at her profession selling to other publishers. If the publisher now wants rights to other books, let them negotiate for that - she is under no obligation to agree, though, and they are obligated by the contract they have already signed, no matter whether the author gives them what they want or not in other negotiations.

      --
      "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" - Patrick Henry
    58. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apple is a noteable example who uses ePub.... with their own proprietary DRM layer.
      Amazon and Overdrive recently launched library lending on Kindle, as well.

    59. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by blair1q · · Score: 1

      I'm not thinking about rights, but about competition.

      If her advance included a non-compete, that could preclude her from publishing anything until the work related to the advance was complete and through its initial sales cycle. That'd be a way of making sure she was concentrating on what they were paying her for, and to avoid diluting her market and reducing their revenues. From which she also could profit, by the way, so it's not all that draconian.

    60. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      No, but then Amazon isn't the only e-publisher in the town.

    61. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by DrgnDancer · · Score: 2

      Most of that makes very little sense. First, these are already published works. They're already associated with her, and are already out there. She's just put them into a new collection. They're also apparently award winning pieces. That tends to argue against them being not up to Pengiun's standards. They're probably at least part of the basis on which they offered her a contract in the first place. As to the advertising thing, again, this is old work. She might mention it while on the radio... but she might just as well mention the collections the stories originally appeared in or one of her earlier novels. We're not talking about some lady who just wrote her first book and is throwing some old crap from college together into a collection. She's an established writer with a long history. She's got lots of published material which she continues to have a vested interest in selling. That's the baggage you get when you chose to sign an established author instead of taking an chance on a new talent.

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    62. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by postbigbang · · Score: 1

      Now stop that. It's against the rules to RTFA around here, so that everyone can sound like an authority.

      Plainly, according to the author's side and if the sequence of events is truthful, Penguin The Publisher is most certainly breaching their contract. She, and her attorney, will be rich despite how many books or copies she eventually sells. Penguin ought to be unabashedly apologetic. But I doubt they get that. 99% and all that.

      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
    63. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It already is

    64. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by LWATCDR · · Score: 2

      Not really she is working on royalties and not salary. She is not an employee. The thing is that we do not know what the contract says so who knows.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    65. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      No. The current situation (well as the author claims it) is that the publisher wants the advance back at which point they'll give her back the rights. Hence the $20k being discusses is for the rights.

      Of course I could be misinterpreting...

    66. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Kjella · · Score: 2

      Step 2: Accept that legalese exists for the same reason software developers don't program in English. It is hard to precisely define or decipher the contents of a contract, you will need to learn a special vocabulary.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    67. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by spire3661 · · Score: 2

      Jerry: "Excuse me I'd like to return this jacket."

      Teller: "Certainly. May I ask why?"

      Jerry: "........For spite..."

      Teller: "Spite?"

      Jerry: "That's right. I don't care for the salesman that sold it to me."

      Teller: "I don't think you can return an item for spite."

      --
      Good-bye
    68. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      So let me see if I understand you correctly: You are saying they are "compatible" but you'll need special software to use one and none of them work on Kindle is that correct? Compatible...I don't think that words means what you think it means.

      This is why I've been telling my customers to avoid the whole thing like the clap. Either they will die out like the eReader craze of the 90s (bet nobody remembers THAT huh?) or like iTunes they'll end up DRM free.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    69. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Compared to ...? The big-box retailers have already virtually extinguished the independents around here. Only the oldest, most character-laden have hung on as niche. There's no way any new independents will ever start. It's over.

      Given the choice between big-box and Amazon, what really is the difference?

    70. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by greg1104 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      For you not to directly compete with your own products seems like a reasonable expectation, provided the terms are laid out clearly.

      If you think any of the terms of a typical publisher contract are laid out clearly, you have completely missed the point. My book went into print a year ago, and it seems every month I find a new way I'm being screwed I didn't see coming. The latest wrinkle involves how I don't get any per-copy royalties for the foreign translations (of which there currently are one). This means I'm now competing against the foreign copies of my own book! It's in there, now that I go back and re-read the dense fine print in that one section, but "laid out clearly" is certainly is not. Like a lot of contract exchanges, the publishing company has enormously more legal resources to craft a contract that benefits them, compared to any one author. This is why the contracts all favor the publisher, and authors normally feel abused--unless you're a famous enough author to have your own agent and legal team.

      The idea that the advance on a book represents some giant sum the publisher should get all sorts of benefits from is exactly the line of thinking that needs to be stopped here. Publishers used to lay out that money and a large second sum for printing of books, which may or may not get sold. They were assuming a lot of risk, and traditional publication contracts reflect that. But it's not true any more, as printing moves to on-demand or not at all, in the e-book case. Much like the big music industry, publishers haven't quite figured out yet they can easily end up being only minimally useful middle-men to experienced content creators. And like a lot of negotiation the easiest way to get better terms is to just walk away altogether. The big decision on my next book isn't "which publisher", it's "do I need a regular publisher at all?". Right now, one of the biggest problems I have is that my publisher screwed up the Kindle version of my book; they just didn't do the QA to make it readable. I'm pretty sure Amazon has that down had they done it themselves.

    71. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Well, nothing except the fact that Amazon controls the entire distribution chain, which none of the other publishers do.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    72. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Bucky24 · · Score: 1

      I think that may depend on if the novels are in a series or not. Personally (and I imagine this goes for a lot of other people as well) if I read one book in the series and like it I would prefer to buy the next book right after, rather than wait 18 months for it to come out. But if they aren't in a series then your argument does make a lot of sense.

      --
      All the world's a CPU, and all the men and women merely AI agents
    73. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      If the contract gave exclusive distribution rights to Penguin then the author is in breach of contract. Seems simple to me.

      The devil is in the details. If it gave exclusive rights to all her works, past and future, that would be one thing. I would imagine that it didn't (I don't believe that's SOP.) I think they were just trying to make an example, generate a little deterrent effect, figured that a few C&D's would put the fear of God into her. Which is just fucking *stupid*: alienating your suppliers is never a good idea, especially when this is all about their having another outlet for their products. A better way would have been to sweeten the pot a little to keep her from going outside the fold, as it were. You can bet Penguin just lost any future output from that author, and I'll take more bets that other authors in their stable are now thinking about moving on.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    74. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      If I remember correctly, authors get better terms if they publish exclusively with Amazon.

      Sure ... an exclusive is always worth more and that's probably reasonable. The author has to decide, based upon the quality and target demographics of the work, whether it's worth going that way, or keeping the options open.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    75. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      Nothing stops those other publishers from offering similar terms as Amazon. Well, sheer greed and stupidity does, but nothing else. It isn't like amazon actually has some huge advantage. Those publishing houses still have quite the shoe-in on distribution, marketing, editing etc. They just need to reexamine their business methods. Maybe they could even patent the new method ;-) j/k

      Quite. And if they fail to make the correct moves ... they'll go under and someone else will buy up the pieces and try again, and maybe be more successful.

      I'm less concerned about Amazon per se as I am about electronic books in general. We're ceding more and more control of our societal knowledge-base to corporations of one sort or another, who can revoke our access to that information on a whim. I like the fact that a paper book requires no high-technology to read it, and cannot be remotely disabled or erased.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    76. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 1

      I think you're blowing the case out of proportion.

      Let's say you go to a publisher, and you have six completed manuscripts for six different novels. The publisher reads them and likes them all. "Great," you say, "then go ahead and publish them all, and we'll have a big advertising push to promote the six great new novels by Nom du Keyboard."

      The publisher will refuse. The publisher will suggest, instead, that it publish one of your novels every 18 months or so for the next few years.

      You clearly don't understand writing, or authors. Suppose I told you that I want to buy the last 10 years of your life's work, but I only want to send you a check for 1/6th of it every 18 months. Great deal? I wouldn't think so. Not when there are other markets available willing to publish your book now.

      If the publisher wants to publish all 6 books then put them under contract now and pay advances now. That still is a pretty awful deal for the author who has to wait 9 more years for the last book to be published, but it beats the following case.

      In this case the publisher actually turned down the other book. Didn't want it at all. Does that mean that you are not allowed to sell it otherwise on your own? Does this publisher pwn you now and you are only allowed to publish what they agree to? I sure hope not.

      --
      "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
    77. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is just like saying that Microsoft has a monopoly with windows, which has always been bullshit. For no

          Amazon will destroy all the old guard in publishing, which is a good thing, and they will rule the world right up until they stop serving the needs of the customer (author & reader) at which time a new competitor will cut them off at the knees with a new business model and better service. As it is authors with a good following can already go it alone with their own website, but Amazon just makes it so easy to do.

      Really this is all rapidily becoming a moot point. As one business after another becomes essentially zero cost(near 0 is close enough) people will start doing what they love rather than what they must and then the real renaissance will begin.

    78. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Omestes · · Score: 1

      They aren't compatible with the Kindle because Amazon decided not to make them compatible. That is no one's fault but Amazons, and hardly reflects at all on the format itself. And... Don't you need special software to use ANY file, regardless of format?

      My solution is to simply strip the DRM from every file as I get it. That way I can actually loan a "book" to my girlfriend, without having to give her my Nook for a week.

      I doubt this is a trend though, looking at the sales numbers for ebooks, and eink readers and tablets. I doubt they will EVER be DRM free, as well. Apple managed to get a good position early, and used that as leverage to kill the DRM. Amazon is managing to get a good position now, and make their own flavor of DRM, and makes some deal with publishers that completely screwed customers, universally.

      I'm beginning to feel as dirty shopping at Amazon as I did when I shopped at Walmart. Sure, its all nice and good for the customer right now, but is it really good for anyone in the slightly longer term?
      .

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    79. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Catbeller · · Score: 1

      the distribution chain doesn't exist anymore. eBooks come from Amazon servers. The servers don't hold inventory, don't need monthly orders, don't need a percentage, don't have to rip the covers off and send the ebooks back if they don't sell, don't need a parking lot or a restroom. Bad or Good, this is it; we don't need the distribution chain anymore. The damned, aching shame is that this didn't happen fifteen years ago. The publishers kept us frozen in 1975 for far too long.

      Not many cried when millions of industrial workers fell into poverty. Now the literary types will join them. Where anyone will work is beyond me.

    80. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by RocketRabbit · · Score: 2

      It's not so much as they're stupid and don't care, it's more like the publishing industry is stupid and people don't care if it gets thrown under a bus.

    81. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by RocketRabbit · · Score: 1

      You know what an advance is, right? They take the money out of your future earnings on the book, and if it flops they take it out of your ASS!

      Yes, you have to pay back an advance if your book is not profitable enough.

    82. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by mabhatter654 · · Score: 1

      Exactly!
      That $10 dead tree (about $2 to make) takes $1 Million in machinery to produce efficiently. Even "on demand" bookmaking is still 10x more per copy. Amazon will kill the market and the only books available will be $300 textbooks due to low demand.

      Then the Moral Majority will crack down on Amazon selling "offensive" books ... That aren't approved by a rabbi, a priest, and a pastor.

    83. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      I like the fact that a paper book requires no high-technology to read it, and cannot be remotely disabled or erased.

      Of course, if my house catches fire, all my paper books go up in smoke.

      My ebooks, on the other hand, are completely unaffected.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    84. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      You can bet Penguin just lost any future output from that author, and I'll take more bets that other authors in their stable are now thinking about moving on.

      I suspect you're right. I also suspect that I won't be buying any more books from Penguin....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    85. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      I like the fact that a paper book requires no high-technology to read it, and cannot be remotely disabled or erased.

      Of course, if my house catches fire, all my paper books go up in smoke.

      My ebooks, on the other hand, are completely unaffected.

      And when the server farm that is housing your books goes up in flames without a disaster recovery plan ... you're still screwed.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    86. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, but what if it wasn't by fault of Amazon ?

      The problem I see is not that Amazon live in the 21th century, it's more like every other Big Content companies publishers are stuck in ways that are current 19th century at best.

    87. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by BoberFett · · Score: 1

      I'd say you're correct. In generally, stupid people just don't care. About grammar. In generally.

    88. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by EzInKy · · Score: 1

      Both Adobe and DRM are deal breakers here. Why in the world would any sane person put software on their computing devices they can't control and buy something that can be stolen away from them such silly reasons as copyright protections?

      --
      Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
    89. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by arkhan_jg · · Score: 2

      It's not even the same characters; the short stories were written years ago, and none of them are even in the same genre as the book she's writing for penguin. They're reading the non-compete clause to mean any work written by the author cannot be published by amazon, regardless of association to the current book, or when it was written or previously; they even tried to complain about her first short story compilation that was published by amazon before she even signed the contract for the new book with penguin! (until her lawyer slapped them down on that, at least).

      To expect complete publishing veto over all an author's work, past or present, for two years over a contract for a single book and an advance of $20k is ridiculous.

      Clearly the moral of the tale is, don't publish your book through penguin as they think they then own you and your entire back catalog - even when it's not mentioned in the contract at all, and even when they have no interest in publishing it themselves!

      --
      Remember kids, it's all fun and games until someone commits wholesale galactic genocide.
    90. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      RTFA

    91. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by satuon · · Score: 1

      So if you already are a famous author like George R. R. Martin does that mean you can skip using a publisher?

    92. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Builder · · Score: 1

      But dozens of other people are involved in those books. Even WITH editors, horrible spelling mistakes still get through. Even with typesetters, you still end up with weird breaks occasionally. What's going to happen without those roles ?

    93. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Like a lot of contract exchanges, the publishing company has enormously more legal resources to craft a contract that benefits them, compared to any one author.

      Yes, whereas poor little Amazon probably just have one part time guy who did a few law classes at college and also makes the tea. So you're bound to get a better deal with them.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    94. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      This is bullying an author, plain and simple. (if the story is as the author has written)

      And how could this writer of fiction's story be anything else? Oh, wait...

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    95. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Since the universe is the civil war isn't the idea of exclusiveness a bit silly I mean since the author is working in historical time and not a fictional creation of her own?

      The genre is called "historical fiction" the clue is in the second word.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    96. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Eh, big publishers almost always have abusive clauses like this in their contracts. Authors have been griping for years about it, but what can they do, the publishers hold all of the cards.

      Surely that's what agents are for? If the author signs an abusive contract direct with a publisher, they can't legitimately complain about it afterwards.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    97. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      No. The current situation (well as the author claims it) is that the publisher wants the advance back at which point they'll give her back the rights. Hence the $20k being discusses is for the rights.

      Of course I could be misinterpreting...

      Well of course they want their fucking $20K advance against royalties back if they're not going to be publishing the book and paying her any royalties.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    98. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Was the publisher asserting that it had contracted *all* intellectualy proprty from the author for a paltry 20k?

      No. The £20K is an advance against royalties, that is money that is advanced now for set off against royalties earned later. Why is that so hard to understand?

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    99. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      The point you are missing is that the author got a sweet deal from Penguin, including an advance, and the prospect of publicity and marketing, then tried to use this new fame/status to make some quick cash off old material.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    100. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      I also suspect that I won't be buying any more books from Penguin....

      Why, because some unknown author tried to get clever with themover a fucking publishing contract?

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    101. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by mcvos · · Score: 1

      Do books of a single author really compete with other books by that same author? I'd expect if someone likes a book by a certain author, he's more likely to buy other books from that author, rather than less. So the book published elsewhere would be free publicity, not competition.

    102. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by teh+kurisu · · Score: 1

      No, when that happens you still have your local copies. And if you're sensible, you have backups of your local copies.

    103. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      Of course, but that's completely irrelevant to the topic at the hand.

    104. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      Do you work for Penguin?

      You seem awfully incensed over the possibility that this "unknown author" might be more wronged than wrong....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    105. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by jandrese · · Score: 1

      Yep, and the alternative is to just not get published. Clearly the publisher was only mildly interested in her work given the relatively paltry advance, so it was probably a take it or leave it situation.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    106. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Quirkz · · Score: 1

      Where have you heard this? I've only seen it suggested one other time (also here on slashdot), and it was refuted in that instance.

    107. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by rwv · · Score: 1

      A book available POD from Amazon will not go out of print as long as Amazon stays in the POD business.

      I'm happy to have the option to buy best sellers from Amazon or B&N or Google Books or local bookshop or borrow it from the library. But for obscure stuff I'm happy being forced into any single one of these options because demand it low. That said... I'd much prefer to hand an author $20 and get a dead-tree copy of their signed book or $10 to download a copy of their eBook. This isn't always practical, so Amazon's way is a happy substitute.

    108. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by ckaminski · · Score: 1

      Who's George R. R. Martin?

    109. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by satuon · · Score: 1
    110. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by danomac · · Score: 1

      My ebooks, on the other hand, are completely unaffected.

      Sure, unless the ebook store revoked the book and the only copy is on the electronics device that is now molten plastic/metal.

      The chances of a house fire destroying books is a lot less likely than some company going under and revoking access to material.

    111. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by fuzznutz · · Score: 1

      You still do not understand. READ THE ARTICLE. All of the big 6 PASSED on printing rights to the collection of old stories that she published on Amazon. She has Penguin's rejection letter. One of the two collections was published PRIOR even to signing the contract for the advance on a NEW book. You definition of "compete" would prevent every author from publishing any new book as long as there were any other books in current print. That is insane. What kind of idiot author would ever sign on to that kind of indentured servitude for $20,000 over two years?

    112. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      No, when that happens you still have your local copies. And if you're sensible, you have backups of your local copies.

      I maintain encrypted off-site backups for just that reason. I don't depend upon the cloud, I don't depend upon my Internet connection for access to my personal data, and I don't depend upon some server farm operator to keep my stuff secure.

      But that's me. Most people are point-blank unwilling to take even the simplest steps to protect themselves, and when they get burnt I don't have much sympathy. And when they get burned again ... I have none.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    113. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not sure what the news is here. I don't know about Waterstones, but WH Smith have been selling ebook readers in-store for a while and ebooks online for a while, I don't know how long because I don't look that often and it is only relatively recently (the beginning of this year) I have started looking at ebooks. The only news I can see with WH Smith is that they are now selling the Kobo ereader and seem to be promoting it like it is their own.

    114. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What is stopping the publishers from selling ebooks directly through their own websites? Baen has webscription.net through which they sell DRM-free ebooks, but do any others? And more importantly to me, if they do, do they sell them without DRM?

  3. Publisher Pricing by MozeeToby · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Maybe they got tired of having to qualify every eBook price with "This price was set by the publisher".

    Want to know what's wrong with the eBook market? Just check out this page; $15 for a poorly scanned version of a book that was written more than 40 years ago, that's available new in paperback and even hardcover for less. Seriously? Who the hell comes up with these pricing models? Even as a huge eBook fan there's been plenty of books that I've passed on because I just can't justify the cost for a digital copy, even ignoring the fact that the digital copy is DRM'd to Amazon's tool set.

    1. Re:Publisher Pricing by 0123456 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Who the hell comes up with these pricing models?

      Publishers who don't want people buying ebooks and destroying their dead tree book market.

    2. Re:Publisher Pricing by Lumpy · · Score: 2

      Buy a new paperbvack copy and download a epub from piratebay.

      Honestly, if the ebook version is a joke, then sidestep them.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    3. Re:Publisher Pricing by sesshomaru · · Score: 1

      Yes, eBook readers are great... for reading stuff from Project Gutenberg.

      I recommend The King in Yellow by Robert W. Chambers and Moon-Face and Other Stories by Jack London.

      --
      "MIT betrayed all of its basic principles."
    4. Re:Publisher Pricing by swan5566 · · Score: 1

      Maybe they got tired of having to qualify every eBook price with "This price was set by the publisher".

      Want to know what's wrong with the eBook market? Just check out this page; $15 for a poorly scanned version of a book that was written more than 40 years ago, that's available new in paperback and even hardcover for less. Seriously? Who the hell comes up with these pricing models? Even as a huge eBook fan there's been plenty of books that I've passed on because I just can't justify the cost for a digital copy, even ignoring the fact that the digital copy is DRM'd to Amazon's tool set.

      Then go buy the hardcover version, and leave the free market to correct itself.

      --
      In debates about Christianity, there are two groups: those looking for answers, and those looking to just ask questions.
    5. Re:Publisher Pricing by arth1 · · Score: 1

      Customers who buy them not knowing or caring they're being fleeced, because Kindle 2/3/4 is so in.

    6. Re:Publisher Pricing by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      I couldn't stop reading "The Road" on my Xoom. $Free

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    7. Re:Publisher Pricing by jtownatpunk.net · · Score: 1

      Hey, I have a patent on that method of moral piracy!

      Tho I'm purchasing more epub titles directly now that it's so easy to strip the DRM from them. But only if the price is reasonable.

    8. Re:Publisher Pricing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well to be fair Amazon gets to set the price of paper books it sells. With this it can sell them at a loss. So you see paper books selling below the cost of the ebook. That is not how the publisher wants them sold. That $15 is still below the list price of the book. That is the price you see printed on the jacket of the book. Granted that is a terrible price for that book. Dune is an entry level book for a series. They shoud be selling it for $3. The third book in the series they should sell for $15.

    9. Re:Publisher Pricing by BoberFett · · Score: 1

      The existence of copyright (for better or worse) means there is no free market on ideas. Ideas and words are owned through the force of government.

    10. Re:Publisher Pricing by ThePhilips · · Score: 1

      Then go buy the hardcover version, and leave the free market to correct itself.

      Guess who's collecting royalties on the hardcover version?

      As I see it, the cabal of publishers is precisely why Amazon is doing what it is doing.

      In the end, I'm not really sure that the publisher's iron grip on authors is much worse than the Amazon DRM-y iron grip on consumers. Both are bad, though the latter doesn't involve dead trees.

      --
      All hope abandon ye who enter here.
    11. Re:Publisher Pricing by Atroxodisse · · Score: 1

      http://www.gutenberg.org/

      Lots of free stuff there.

      --
      Read my short stories - You won't regret it.
    12. Re:Publisher Pricing by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      Without copyright or patents, there is no market for ideas at all. IP law enables the valuation of ideas by trade - in any other case, the ideas would be worth nothing at all, since copying them is essentially free of cost. Whether this is good or bad is another question, but the idea that abolishing IP law would create a "free market on ideas" is frankly ridiculous.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    13. Re:Publisher Pricing by IMightB · · Score: 1
    14. Re:Publisher Pricing by IMightB · · Score: 1

      Sorry here's the actual free link http://baencd.thefifthimperium.com/

    15. Re:Publisher Pricing by BoberFett · · Score: 1

      Way to miss the point. The free market is not a part of the music/book/film publishing industry. Government enforced monopolies (copyright) rule the day, and waiting for the free market to sort things out is about as intelligent as waiting for Santa to bring you a pony.

      The GPs suggestion to buy the dead tree version to save money will simply kill the relatively new e-publishing model before it even gets off the ground, leaving us in the same shitty situation we were in before: with middle men having full control over what you see and hear.

    16. Re:Publisher Pricing by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Buy a hard copy. Even better, a USED hard copy. No need to worry about "publisher setting a price".

      Oh you want a convenience? Pay for it.

    17. Re:Publisher Pricing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Phsst. $15? How about $45 for a sub 300-page black and white paperback with poorly aligned text.

      http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Language-2nd-Brian-Kernighan/dp/0131103628/

      K&R wrote a great book, but seriously?

    18. Re:Publisher Pricing by mewsenews · · Score: 2

      Want to know what's wrong with the eBook market? Just check out this page; $15 for a poorly scanned version of a book that was written more than 40 years ago

      I tried....:

      This title is not available for customers from:
      Canada

    19. Re:Publisher Pricing by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      Ideas and words are owned through the force of government.

      That's what it's turning into, but that's not the way it was, or was meant to be by the Founders. The copyright cartels are dying to have the government (and hence taxpayer) assume the cost of enforcement. That's just wrong: the law gives you, the copyright holder, the right to seek redress in court, but it was never the government job to do that for you.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    20. Re:Publisher Pricing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who the hell comes up with these pricing models?

      Publishers who don't want people buying ebooks and destroying their dead tree book market.

      But on the other hand, there's no second hand market in ebooks. I'm honestly surprised they're not pushing to sell more DRM copies than paper, as it would significantly boost the length of time they make money from each title.

    21. Re:Publisher Pricing by Eskarel · · Score: 1

      Even when you buy a book directly from the Kindle, Amazon clearly states the prices of all other versions available in their store. Yes, if for some reason Amazon doesn't sell the dead tree version you might get fleeced, but it is impossible to purchase an e-book from Amazon without being notified of all the relevant pricing. Not saying you won't find people who will pay a higher price for an e-Book for any number of various reasons, but if they're capable of reading they know they're paying more.

    22. Re:Publisher Pricing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, and the reason the publisher sets the prices is because industry formed a trust imo and blackmailed Amazon. This was well-covered on /.

      Amazon had kept insisting ebook prices stay at under $10 because they wanted people to get hooked on ebooks via the Kindle (win win for them). This irritated publishers who are interested in control, not profits, and act junior RIAA/MPAA members, but the Kindle was pretty much the big, _lone_ player in the ebook market--no ipad, no Nook, Sony ereader not nearly as popular. This changed around the time the ipad was released...now the Kindle had major competition with Apple.

      Once the publishers had a second major player in Apple, they leveraged that completely and wholly against pretty much the mass market creator for ebooks--Amazon and its Kindle offerings. How so? The major publishers, seemingly in concert, wanted to break the lock Amazon had in keeping ebook prices cheap. They did so by threatening to pull all their books--that's ebooks AND DEAD TREE BOOKS--entirely from Amazon, if Amazon refused. It was no idle threat.

      Amazon backed down. I felt it was the wrong decision at the time, I wanted them to fight. But in retrospect, it was a smart and shrewd move. They kept the Kindle from being hamstrung with little selection from publishers who were the only ones really putting out content people wanted to read at the time. They kept the current Kindle customers happy, still sold ebooks and books, still had income/cash flow from books from that established customer base, and lulled the publishers into a false sense of superiority that they got what they wanted and had "won.".

      Amazon's current tactic reflects a smart overall strategy. They're using their branding, the money they have continuing sales, and turning it on the publishers that screwed them by going after their own home turf--signing talent, getting product. A simple move, but one that is pretty brilliant in terms of keeping ones cool and biding time to strike back.

      This increases profitability on the product sold. And it leverages these offerings, if they catch on, against the major publishers by taking talent away from them, shutting down their future hoard, increases the publishers costs (less branding on a smaller market), and if the publishers pulled that threat again, Amazon has more a buffer of product to rely on or to drop the bottom out of the price and wage a price war against the publishers. They could even reciprocate the threat used against them and pull an entire publishers lineup the next time they force a price fixing.

      Now, as the publishing industry fights to hold on to what was a dwindling market for books (dead tree books/physical product), they've come to rely on ebook sales more, and they've pissed off the low end price point major seller Amazon. People usually aren't going to buy a $400+ ipad just to be an ereader nowadays or even when they have few options--Amazon learned that with the DX. Amazon now solidly not only has the reader but also is started to get the writers to turn the tied.

      I like this. People may distrust Amazon, but compared to the publishing industry, I'll take someone wanting to sell things at a fair price over those that use monopoly granted power (copyright) in a trust to price fix.

      btw, since the publishers pulled this crap, I've bought fewer ebooks, and spent my money elsewhere like DVDs, video games, etc., where I feel I get more value. Before I bought mostly books--I spent more overall if I felt I was getting value (I may spend $100 a month on a few books; before I was spending $200 and getting more books than 2x the quantity from the $100 spent now).

    23. Re:Publisher Pricing by Carewolf · · Score: 1

      Hmm. Depending on the local laws, that might even be legal, except you are not allowed to seed. You are certainly entitled to scan the book yourself and read the scanned copy, but of course not to distribute it.

  4. If Amazon is smart... by MikeRT · · Score: 3, Interesting

    They'd offer her $40k + legal expenses. This is a pissing match, plain and simple.

    1. Re:If Amazon is smart... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Amazon is big enough to buy all the publishers.

    2. Re:If Amazon is smart... by blair1q · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If they were actually smart, they'd offer her $40k + legal expenses + require she write a book about her experience kicking her publisher in the nuts.

    3. Re:If Amazon is smart... by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Mod Parent Up.

      Excellent Marketing idea.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    4. Re:If Amazon is smart... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This would be awesome and I would buy said book!

    5. Re:If Amazon is smart... by Savantissimo · · Score: 2

      Yeah! If Amazon doesn't step up to the plate against this kind of abuse of authors, authors will know that down the road Amazon probably intends on crushing them just as the publishers did.

      --
      "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" - Patrick Henry
    6. Re:If Amazon is smart... by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      Yeah! If Amazon doesn't step up to the plate against this kind of abuse of authors, authors will know that down the road Amazon probably intends on crushing them just as the publishers did.

      Yep. Trading one middleman for another is what this is all about, and Bezos is no angel. The publishers really ought to take a look at what happened with music, starting from the day the RIAA decided to sue Napster into oblivion. Face it, if the studios had chosen to work with Napster, they could easily have owned the online market instead of ultimately ceding the whole goddamn thing to Apple. And they're thoroughly pissed about that: yeah, they're making more money than ever before but that's not what this is about. Instead, they lost control of distribution, and that's what hurts them the most, because they see that as the key to profit, and for a hundred years or more the music publishers maintained iron-fisted control of content distribution.

      The same exact thing is about to happen to book publishers and I, for one, won't shed a single tear for their passing. I'm tired of these petulant dinosaurs stomping about threatening and intimidating everyone in sight just to maintain their ill-deserved profit margins. They could set up their own sales system and offer their catalogs online, and reap the rewards themselves. They have the money: if they all got together and set something up they could blow Amazon out of the water. But they won't do it, because they want to keep things the way they are.

      As Emperor Palpatine said to Luke: "You will pay the price for your lack of vision." And they will: statism doesn't work in the Internet age, change is the only constant.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    7. Re:If Amazon is smart... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If they were actually smart, they'd offer her $40k + legal expenses + require she write a book about her experience kicking her publisher in the nuts.

      Well, I doubt they would go there (at least for now) Amazon still needs publishers at this time. Of all the posts saying she would win in court, have to realize as soon as you have to go to court you lose.

    8. Re:If Amazon is smart... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This would be awesome and I would buy said book!

      It may or may not be smart/awesome to require someone to write a book about kicking her publisher in the nuts, but when seeking revenge, you first dig 2 graves.
      Better to live well as your revenge as most of the people that *say* they would buy said book would probably not actually *buy* said book (but might pirate the book if given the chance). It would be better to spend the time making more money (assuming this author is talented enough to actually make a living writing books).

    9. Re:If Amazon is smart... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This.

    10. Re:If Amazon is smart... by AdamJS · · Score: 1

      That would be pretty boss.

    11. Re:If Amazon is smart... by fuzznutz · · Score: 1

      change is the only constant.

      Change is inevitable. Except from a vending machine.

    12. Re:If Amazon is smart... by Double+Drop · · Score: 1

      Apple. And they're thoroughly pissed about that: yeah, they're making more money than ever before but that's not what this is about

      Are you a complete idiot? How can you possibly not know that music industry revenue and profits have PLUMMETED in recent years?

      http://j-walk.com/images/MusicRevenueChart_8E6C/MusicIndustry.jpg

      --
      WarGear - Risk Everything
  5. Grandinetti is an idiot: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Firstly, his quote is entirely untrue. If there were noone between the writer and reader, you'd end up with lackluster works. Secondly, which one is Amazon then--the writer or the reader?

    1. Re:Grandinetti is an idiot: by 0123456 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Firstly, his quote is entirely untrue. If there were noone between the writer and reader, you'd end up with lackluster works.

      Have you been to a bookstore lately?

      Sparkly Vampire #16, Sparkly Werewolf #5, Oscar Wilde - Vampire Hunter (Ok, I might read that one), Zombies Vs Vampires #9, More Zombies #97.

      There's a reason why I mostly buy self-published books these days; they may have more typos, but at least there's some variety in the stories for sale.

    2. Re:Grandinetti is an idiot: by wmbetts · · Score: 1

      I think what he was getting at is Amazon is a retailer (not a publisher) with an open market place that allows any author to be their own publisher. Meaning there's no need for an agent and publisher to bring books to the retailer and receive a wide audience of buyers.

      --
      "Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me". - stolen from Dan C alt.os.linux.slackware
    3. Re:Grandinetti is an idiot: by Lumpy · · Score: 2

      You are telling me that all writers are no talent hacks and the publisher makes their book fantastic?

      So let me guess, the harry potter books direct from JK Rowling are full of profanity and nudity and the publisher fixed them into the books that sold like hotcakes and everyone wanted to read...

        Let me guess, you also have a nice bridge in Manhattan that you will sell me for a deal. I know several writers and all of them are looking forward to the day they can bypass the publisher. Most of them are angry that the publishers don't even supply the services they used to, like editors and reviewers to go over the books several times before publishing, they have to hire their own out of their own pocket.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    4. Re:Grandinetti is an idiot: by sesshomaru · · Score: 1

      A smart author hires an editor who he/she trusts. Robert Heinlein was driven nearly insane by his publisher when he was publishing his juvenile novels, because his editor was like an extreme version of TV's standards and practices.

      He finally had to change Starship Troopers into an novel for adults to escape her.

      --
      "MIT betrayed all of its basic principles."
    5. Re:Grandinetti is an idiot: by mingot · · Score: 1

      So so true. There is now a huge section in bookstores (B&N) called "Teen paranormal romance." It's as large as other sections with names like "Fiction", "Reference", and "Non-fiction".

    6. Re:Grandinetti is an idiot: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You should have gone to a bookstore that had more than 5 books.

    7. Re:Grandinetti is an idiot: by DrgnDancer · · Score: 1

      Actually I think he means that the publishers provide editors and copy-editors to make sure you spelled your main character's name the same way through the whole book. Any reasonable and honest author will tell you that the editing (and fact checking for books where they are appropriate) services provided by publishers are useful and valuable. That doesn't mean you couldn't get those services from somewhere other than a publisher, but it does kind of put lie to the idea that book should go from author to reader. You don't necessarily need a publisher in the middle, but having someone there doing quality control does tend to make the final product better.

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    8. Re:Grandinetti is an idiot: by clodney · · Score: 1

      Actually I think he means that the publishers provide editors and copy-editors to make sure you spelled your main character's name the same way through the whole book. Any reasonable and honest author will tell you that the editing (and fact checking for books where they are appropriate) services provided by publishers are useful and valuable.

      Amen. Ever flip through a 10 page dissertation on starting a fire, or aiming a torpedo, or any other historical/technical minutiae that an author was fascinated by but which bored you to tears? I have, and frequently it is something that was self published (which *may* mean no editor), or something where the author was so powerful (looking at you Tom Clancy) that he didn't have to listen to the editor anymore. Editors make books better. Marketing sells more books. Publishers provide both editors and (hopefully) marketing. I'm no fan of the publishers, but they do add value in most cases.

    9. Re:Grandinetti is an idiot: by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      Oscar Wilde - Vampire Hunter

      Stephen Fry already played Oscar Wilde once... can you imagine something that awesome?

    10. Re:Grandinetti is an idiot: by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Which is the point, they are NOT providing that. Most authors have to hire their own.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    11. Re:Grandinetti is an idiot: by jtownatpunk.net · · Score: 1

      I decided that I'd pay an editor to clean up my work if I ever self-publish. Hey, I just thought of a business opportunity.

    12. Re:Grandinetti is an idiot: by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      Publishers provide both editors and (hopefully) marketing. I'm no fan of the publishers, but they do add value in most cases.

      And yet mid-list authors are continually complaining that their publisher didn't provide any editing or marketing.

    13. Re:Grandinetti is an idiot: by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      Stephen Fry already played Oscar Wilde once... can you imagine something that awesome?

      LOL. That would be cool :).

    14. Re:Grandinetti is an idiot: by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      Any reasonable and honest author will tell you that the editing (and fact checking for books where they are appropriate) services provided by publishers are useful and valuable

      As you mention, these services are NOT exclusive to a publisher.

      Indeed, as you mention, it's a valuable service(thus you can realize profit doing it), but it's not 'really necessary', as the article put it. Depending on how good the author is at proofing themselves, of course.

      Some authors have half their work redone, some practically breeze through.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    15. Re:Grandinetti is an idiot: by sourcerror · · Score: 1

      If everybody could comment on the internet, you would end up with a lot of boring shit. We need an editor to approve them before they appear.

    16. Re:Grandinetti is an idiot: by NiteShaed · · Score: 1

      There are plenty of editing services that will do this for a fee. The problem is that self-published works rarely make many sales, so spending hundreds of dollars on editorial work for a book that will probably only make a couple hundred dollars in sales only makes sense if you regard the entire thing as an expensive hobby. Until you have an actual following, better to edit as best you can yourself, and try to get friends to proof-read for you. It's not as good as a good professional editor, but it's less expensive and the results can be decent if not perfect.

      --
      Some bring out the best in others, some the worst. Some bring out far more.
    17. Re:Grandinetti is an idiot: by NiteShaed · · Score: 1

      ^This.
      Publishers really seem to want it both ways here. They still want to act like their imprint on a book is a sign of quality, and that the book has been professionally edited and polished, but if you're not Stephen King or Neil Gaiman your experience with a publisher is often the same as you'd get self-publishing, only you get to leave most of the proceeds with the publisher. They've gone from providing a useful and valuable service to being gatekeepers who demand a portion of an author's income to give their stamp of legitimacy, but without adding much else. I'm all for a publisher who invests their time and money in an author's work by providing editing and marketing, but when they refuse to do this they're nothing more than leaches.

      --
      Some bring out the best in others, some the worst. Some bring out far more.
    18. Re:Grandinetti is an idiot: by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Difference between "books with typos" and "books where language doesn't flow properly, breaking your immersion all the time is the difference between half-life and daikatana.

    19. Re:Grandinetti is an idiot: by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      However there are very few if any good editors, fact checkers, etc who don't want a proper stable paycheck, and therefore work for publishers rather then go into the mercy of authors, who are more often then not bigger assholes then publishers. Not to mention many of them being permanently insolvent and penniless in the "artistic" way.

    20. Re:Grandinetti is an idiot: by hipp5 · · Score: 1

      Have you been to a bookstore lately?

      Sparkly Vampire #16 [...]

      But this shit has always existed, just with different names and different fads. If you think otherwise I would have to say you have your "fetishism of the past" pants on. It doesn't preclude good books from existing or being offered in bookstores.

    21. Re:Grandinetti is an idiot: by Bucky24 · · Score: 1

      the harry potter books direct from JK Rowling are full of profanity and nudity

      Actually considering all the slashfic on the internet those would probably sell pretty well.

      --
      All the world's a CPU, and all the men and women merely AI agents
    22. Re:Grandinetti is an idiot: by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      So so true. There is now a huge section in bookstores (B&N) called "Teen paranormal romance." It's as large as other sections with names like "Fiction", "Reference", and "Non-fiction".

      What the fuck is a "teen paranormal romance?" Nevermind, I don't want to know. Really, I don't. The other thing that truly pisses me off is that nobody, not even the publishers, has the slightest capacity to distinguish between fantasy and science-fiction anymore. It's like they believe the two are synonymous. I can enjoy a good work in either category, but goddammit learn how to label them properly. I really hate it when a pure fantasy novel is marketed as a work of science fiction: they're two entirely different classes of writing. Might as well confuse romance with small-engine repair.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    23. Re:Grandinetti is an idiot: by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      There are plenty of editing services that will do this for a fee. The problem is that self-published works rarely make many sales, so spending hundreds of dollars on editorial work for a book that will probably only make a couple hundred dollars in sales only makes sense if you regard the entire thing as an expensive hobby. Until you have an actual following, better to edit as best you can yourself, and try to get friends to proof-read for you. It's not as good as a good professional editor, but it's less expensive and the results can be decent if not perfect.

      True enough, but on the other hand ... this is the age of the Internet, of the social network. You can gain a following quite easily if you learn how to promote yourself online. Wil Wheaton is a good example of this, I think. He's a regular on G+. Get fifty or sixty thousand followers all sharing your circles and linking to your sales site and you might be able to do okay for yourself.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    24. Re:Grandinetti is an idiot: by NiteShaed · · Score: 1

      You can gain a following quite easily if you learn how to promote yourself online. Wil Wheaton is a good example of this, I think.

      Well, he did have the benefit of being a movie and television star before he got involved in social networking...

      --
      Some bring out the best in others, some the worst. Some bring out far more.
    25. Re:Grandinetti is an idiot: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agree on Tom Clancy. I like his books, but it is obvious that the past few have each become thicker and thicker, sloppier and sloppier, as if he didn't bother to revise/refine the books before getting them published. I guess he's powerful enough, but he really needs to listen to his editor more.

    26. Re:Grandinetti is an idiot: by WWWWolf · · Score: 1

      Have you been to a bookstore lately?

      Sparkly Vampire #16, Sparkly Werewolf #5, Oscar Wilde - Vampire Hunter (Ok, I might read that one), Zombies Vs Vampires #9, More Zombies #97.

      Yeah, scary, isn't it? Then I remember that the publishers are only interested of about 1% of the manuscripts that come to them - the ones that actually have commercial potential and that the publisher can find time and energy to actually work on.

      If this is the result of gatekeeping, do I really want to see the ones that didn't make it?

      Yeah, there's a chance that someone wrote an awesome, commercially viable novel but just couldn't find a publisher for it, and published it through self-publishing channels - but unless there's someone who vets the books and says "seriously, no one's going to buy this" or "this one's not half bad", I'm always just a bit sceptical. Because if the publisher's money isn't on the line, they're not necessarily concerned about making the works shine.

  6. Are they that far behind the curve? by axafg00b · · Score: 1

    You know, if her contract was specific to her new book, and she retained the rights to the short stories, then Penguin is indeed the enemy. But, really, hasn't Penguin been reading the papers lately? This Intertube thingy is catching on - you can get direct to user music and videos and shopping. Aren't they a little behind the curve here?

    --
    I think, therefore I am - Rene Descartes; I yam what I yam, an' that's what I yam - Popeye
    1. Re:Are they that far behind the curve? by Bucky24 · · Score: 1

      Publishers in general don't really have much place on the internet. Their main appeal for authors is the actual publishing, ie the printing of books, which of course is trivialized by the internet and companies like Amazon.

      --
      All the world's a CPU, and all the men and women merely AI agents
  7. good publishers still have a role by Snotman · · Score: 1

    So, not sure where the fear is. Good publishers refine author's works into something readable in many cases and they distribute and market. Amazon is a solution for distribution, but it doesn't quite cut the mustard for the other two. Sure, for authors that are professionals, they need less help. Those that are starting out most likely need some help. It would be interesting to see the opportunity cost of an author using a publisher versus DIY either way.

    1. Re:good publishers still have a role by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not in publishing, but I think they look at it as... they make you into someone that people know. They make your early books readable and get them in peoples hands through costly promotion and distribution. Now you're someone famous with name recognition (because they did that for you), and so you cut them out entirely and sell books through Amazon.

      In this case they were probably pissed that they're selling her all over the place, and she's reaping the immediate benefits by selling a unrelated, secondary work on Amazon. What's worse, is if it's lesser material, she's hurting their sales of the book they did contract so she can make a few bucks up front.

      Though really, if the publishers were ACTUALLY that worried about self publishing, all of this should have been spelled out in her contract... and apparently it wasn't.

    2. Re:good publishers still have a role by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 1

      Good publishers refine author's works into something readable in many cases and they distribute and market.

      Too bad good publishers do not exist anymore.

    3. Re:good publishers still have a role by hedwards · · Score: 1

      I think the concern is that Amazon also serves as a cheap replacement for the vanity presses that are from time to time used to sell books that none of the publishers want. What's more, the ebook version in particular has a very low cost of entry over just writing a manuscript.

      Amazon does also have a branch that prints books these days, they also own https://www.createspace.com/ . It's basically a one stop vanity press with editing and marketing services available for sale.

    4. Re:good publishers still have a role by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Good publishers refine author's works into something readable in many cases and they distribute and market.

      Too bad good publishers do not exist anymore.

      Too bad you have no idea what a good publisher is.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  8. There is room for both. by DurendalMac · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think some people are too quick to write off the publishing industry. They still provide things you won't find on Amazon, such as EDITORS. An early author may be able to put a book together, but sometimes they need a very experienced set of eyes to help them fix problems and eliminate some cruft. An experienced writer may not need one as much (although they generally still do), but starting authors almost certainly will. You also cannot get your ebook into nearly as many hands as a hardcopy. Any literate person with functional eyes can read a hardcopy, but you need a Kindle or similar device to read an ebook.

    What I hope to see from this is two competing markets. Hopefully this will coax the publishing industry to give authors a better cut. Maybe that's a bit too pie-in-the-sky, but it's possible. Let's hope the publishing industry can adapt better than the goddamned RIAA.

    1. Re:There is room for both. by Hatta · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think some people are too quick to write off the publishing industry. They still provide things you won't find on Amazon, such as EDITORS.

      Editors are important, but you don't need to sign with a publishing house to get your book edited. There's nothing stopping you from hiring a freelance editor and publishing on Amazon if you think it's necessary.

      In the end, I think the market will make the decision here. If publishers add value, then readers will stick with traditional publishers. If they don't, then Amazon will win.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    2. Re:There is room for both. by liquidweaver · · Score: 2

      I'm pretty sure hiring an editor for $10k and then self publishing is a far better deal than handing a lion's share of your profit to a publisher over 20,40,80 years.

      --
      mov ah, 4ch
      int 21h
    3. Re:There is room for both. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed, although I will point out that there are freelance professional editors. If you self-publish and don't use one, you're either a god or a clueless hack, with the vast majority of those folks being the latter. (This is, of course, a broad brush... some people self-publish just for fun - more power to them.)

    4. Re:There is room for both. by molesdad · · Score: 1

      Ok I take that as there is still a market for editors to refine the product, what I fail to see is the "we still need to limit the choice and availability" of said product. This is essentially what publishers do, just like the record industry used to do; if you want this product you have to purchase it in this format at this time and then again later when we decide to publish in another format that suits our business model. Fuck em I say give me what I want when I want it or I will pirate your books and accept the consequence of driving authors away for the short term.

      --
      If the shoe fits, it's ugly.
    5. Re:There is room for both. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Any literate person with functional eyes can read a hardcopy, but you need a Kindle or similar device to read an ebook.

      You don't need a dedicated device to read an ebook. Any computer (and most tablets, even some phones) with the appropriate reader program can do the job.

    6. Re:There is room for both. by 91degrees · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Editors are important, but you don't need to sign with a publishing house to get your book edited. There's nothing stopping you from hiring a freelance editor and publishing on Amazon if you think it's necessary.

      Lack of money is. Ultimately a publisher these days is simply a one stop shop offering a loan, editing, typesetting, cover art, promotion, distribution and a selection of other tasks that are needed to make a book successful.

      You could get all that yourself from other sources but I suspect few lenders would lend you money on the same terms - no requirement to pay it all back until your writing careers is a success.

    7. Re:There is room for both. by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

      Amazon has editors that they can and do provide. They can in fact offer all that stuff. The article told me so.

    8. Re:There is room for both. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, but it seems an astoundingly large majority of people will crank the brightness up to max, use black-on-white to maximize overall brightness, stare into the blazing white fury they've created for a few hours, then post online about how it's impossible to read from an emissive display without eyestrain. Odds are good you're replying to one of these fools, not someone who knows how to adjust a monitor properly.

      (OTOH, there are some mobile devices with legitimate issues, where the manufacturer truncates the low end of the brightness adjustment, to make sure the screen is always bright enough to see the brightness controls. Unfortunately, "bright enough to see" in daylight is too damn bright for many indoor lighting levels -- but I've had two such devices, and patches were available to grant full range adjustment on both of them.)

    9. Re:There is room for both. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There isn't as much editing by the publisher as you may think. Most books are edited by agents and authors nowdays. Publishers rarely hire a copy editor unless the author is a big name.

    10. Re:There is room for both. by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      Not just a lion's share...they get the copyright.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    11. Re:There is room for both. by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 4, Informative

      Ultimately a publisher these days is simply a one stop shop offering a loan, editing, typesetting, cover art, promotion, distribution and a selection of other tasks that are needed to make a book successful.

      No, 30 years ago that's what a publisher was. These days only a very, very small minority of those authors who get picked up by publishers get that (i.e. the ones who are already best sellers). Everyone else gets a negligible advance, negligible editing, typesetting they could have done themselves, cover art, no promotion, minimal distribution (their book goes into the distribution catalogues, but hardly onto shelves, which the author could have done on their own) and no other services.

    12. Re:There is room for both. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem here is who is the boss. The normal relation should be: Author = BOSS, Editor = Employee. But, as you may have guessed, the situation is actually: Author = SLAVE, Editor = MASTER.

    13. Re:There is room for both. by houghi · · Score: 1

      Editors? We don't need no stinkin' editors.

      Signed.
      The /. crowd.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    14. Re:There is room for both. by bws111 · · Score: 1

      Sure, IF you have $10K laying around that you can afford to lose. The whole equation becomes a lot less clear when you realize that not only are you potentially getting all the rewards by self-publishing, you are also assuming all of the risk. Easy to do for someone who has already made it with the help of a publisher, much more difficult for someone just starting out.

    15. Re:There is room for both. by flibbidyfloo · · Score: 1

      Publishing house editors removing cruft? What dimension do you live in? Have you read any book series by a popular author lately? Game of Thrones, Wheel of Time, Harry Potter, Left Behind? As soon as an author shows promising sales and decides to write a story longer than one volume, the publisher starts encouraging them to stretch it out into as many books as they can.

      I'm a fan of many such series, but honestly any story that takes more than 4000 pages to tell probably could be told in half as much space. But the publishers are as bad as Hollywood when it comes to sequels. They just work it from a different angle.

      Or how about any Stephen King novel? I like many of his stories, but seriously. That man needs someone brave enough to tell him to cut his descriptive narration by about 30%.

    16. Re:There is room for both. by sandytaru · · Score: 1

      Getting an agent to sign you these days is a miserable, painful exercise. They're picky, because the publishers are picky, and even then there's only a 7% chance your book is going to bring a profit to the publisher.

      Although I still think we need editors, and I respect the work that agents do, something is going to have to give. I'd prefer to see the entire NYC angency/publisher model completely revamped and streamlined for the ebook age, and if it takes Amazon to do it, then so be it.

      --
      Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.
    17. Re:There is room for both. by hydromike2 · · Score: 1

      Not that I am advocating kindles, but the cheapest kindle is I think $79 now, the price of perhaps 5-6 new books. If the pricing of books shifts to favor the reader with amazons efforts then the kindle would pay for itself. There are trade offs of course, such as not have physical copies, but you also have your entire library with you.

    18. Re:There is room for both. by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      One of the easy ways to spot an experienced author is by asking him what he thinks of editors. Inexperienced ones don't think they're important. Experienced ones think they're so important, they will often try to get a long-term professional relationship going once they find an editor that works well with their writing style.

      Not having a good editor is like stepping on a rake. Only dumbest of the dumb do it more then twice.

    19. Re:There is room for both. by Luckyo · · Score: 2

      Ultimately a publisher these days is simply a one stop shop offering a loan, editing, typesetting, cover art, promotion, distribution and a selection of other tasks that are needed to make a book successful.

      No, 30 years ago that's what a publisher was. These days only a very, very small minority of those authors who get picked up by publishers get that (i.e. the ones who are already best sellers). Everyone else gets a negligible advance, negligible editing, typesetting they could have done themselves, cover art, no promotion, minimal distribution (their book goes into the distribution catalogues, but hardly onto shelves, which the author could have done on their own) and no other services.

      That's how publishers worked 30 years ago too. If you're a small, unknown author, you don't get much. This is just another version of "in my days, we had to walk to school barefoot in the snow, uphill both ways".

      Quite simply, this is about budgeting. If a publisher provided every writer wannabe with top level service, it would be broke within a year.

    20. Re:There is room for both. by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      In most cases, authors are so poor that they have to ask for a cash ADVANCE just to be able to feed themselves while working. Like the author in the OP, she got 20k in advance.

      Suggesting that starting author can pay a proper editor is like suggesting that a search engine start up should just buy google level of infrastructure. Completely unrealistic.

    21. Re:There is room for both. by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      You don't need electricity and sanitation either. But damn, does it suck to live without it.

    22. Re:There is room for both. by west · · Score: 1

      but hardly onto shelves

      Unless you are talking small press, you're wrong. Getting your books onto bookstore shelves is the *one* service that publishers can provide that you cannot get any other way. As long as bookstores are relevant, publishers will be relevant, because there has to be *some* mechanism that takes the 100,000 titles that are published a month (self-published and traditionally published) and turns it into the 1,000 or so titles that a bookstore can usefully stock.

      Very few fiction books from traditional publishers don't make at least a few thousand sales, while the vast majority of self-published books from otherwise unknown authors make two digit sales. That's why most writers are still vying to be traditionally published.

      [Note, self-publishing for a known author whose fans are looking for new work is an entirely different ball-game.]

    23. Re:There is room for both. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think some people are too quick to write off the publishing industry. They still provide things you won't find on Amazon, such as EDITORS.

      Editors are important, but you don't need to sign with a publishing house to get your book edited. There's nothing stopping you from hiring a freelance editor and publishing on Amazon if you think it's necessary.

      You assume that an editor selected and paid by the author would produce a result as good for the reading audience as one paid by a successful publisher. Editorial and stylistic biases can creep in, depending on who pays.

    24. Re:There is room for both. by west · · Score: 1

      'm pretty sure hiring an editor for $10k and then self publishing is a far better deal

      What?

      Unless you are an already established author, the odds are very high that you will make less than 100 sales total via e-pub. Many authors have trouble making 20 sales. (If you already are known and have an audience, then it's a very different deal.)

      That's why publishers are important. If you manage to get accepted, not only are you having somebody else put in the $10K (or $20K once you factor editors, typesetters, copy-editors, cover designers, cover artists, warehousing, accounting, etc., etc.) but most importantly of all, you have had a dispassionate third party publicly indicate that they are confident enough that this books will sell that they are willing to invest $20K and think they can get their money back.

      That reason, and that reason alone is why bookstores will stock a traditionally published book and won't stock a self-published book, even if the writer were willing to front the $20K themselves.

      Note, at $20K, most publishers will lose money on an book by an unknown author, but nobody has found a better method of finding best sellers.

    25. Re:There is room for both. by west · · Score: 2

      Not just a lion's share...they get the copyright.

      Um, not in the vast majority of fiction (work-for-hire is a different kettle of fish, but not all that common except for works in somebody else's world.). Open up any fiction book to the front piece and notice who the copyright is assigned to.

    26. Re:There is room for both. by west · · Score: 1

      But the publishers are as bad as Hollywood when it comes to sequels.

      I can tell you that in all but the Left Behind series (I don't know about that), it's the author, not the publisher, that determined the length of the series.

      Fiction publishing is still somewhat old fashioned - writers are still telling *their* stories.

      Now having said that, publishers are saying "no" to the writer's choices a lot more often. But they're rarely telling the authors what to write.

      And to be honest, if the series really is best-selling, maybe the author should actually be trusted to produce what the readers want? :-)

    27. Re:There is room for both. by DurendalMac · · Score: 1

      You missed a third option: You can't afford one. The publisher fronts the editor as part of the publishing deal. Do you have enough money to pay a good freelance editor out of pocket?

    28. Re:There is room for both. by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Ironically, the author in question says that she was promoting this model - self-publishing and traditional publishing side-by-side. That is, until this recent experience with traditional publisher screwing her like that...

    29. Re:There is room for both. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the end, I think the market will make the decision here. If publishers add value, then readers will stick with traditional publishers. If they don't, then Amazon will win.

      You're underestimating the effect of monopoly through DRM. In addition to all the issues about what the publisher gives to the author versus Amazon, and indirectly what those things bring to the customer, you're overlooking the fact that Amazon is ruthless about people only reading ebooks in their own proprietary format.

      Imagine that this was just two publishers, Penguin and, e.g., Knopf. However, Knopf will release its books only in some format that you have to have Knopf readers to read.

      I could care less whether an author chooses to release their books only in an ebook format versus paper format. The real issue for me is whether that author gives a ^@*#% about free speech and releases their book in an open format--electronic or paper--or not.

      The whole ebook versus paper format is a non-issue that distracts from the more critical issues at hand. There's a very dangerous precedent here that gets at the core of free speech issues. This, combined with copyright term bullshit, leads to a very authoritarian regime, led by corporations rather than government.

    30. Re:There is room for both. by flibbidyfloo · · Score: 1

      Forgive me, but I'm more inclined to believe famous authors, like Orson Scott Card, who attributes "Trilogy Creep" to publishing executives that pressure authors into producing sequel after sequel to take advantage of the preexisting fan-base rather than wrapping up their stories as originally intended. I'm sure that sometimes an author decides to stretch out a work, to follow his vision, and to take things in a new direction, or add new subtlety. But sometimes that's a tendency that a good editor should temper in the interest of a good story. Editors aren't just spell checkers.

      See also "Executive Meddling" and "Franchise Zombie" for details. It happens in movies, TV, and yes, novels.

    31. Re:There is room for both. by Bucky24 · · Score: 2

      Generally authors don't sell copyright to publishers, they sell printing rights, and those tend to expire eventually.

      --
      All the world's a CPU, and all the men and women merely AI agents
    32. Re:There is room for both. by Bucky24 · · Score: 1

      I think the point here is that slashdot has very very bad editors.

      --
      All the world's a CPU, and all the men and women merely AI agents
    33. Re:There is room for both. by MacTO · · Score: 1

      Publishers serve another important function: they filter out the crap. It may not seem like it sometimes. A lot of stuff which has no merit does get published but (a) there is a lot worse that they do chop out and (b) you can usually tell by the imprint whether the book is a good bet or a risky one.

      I know that a lot of authors complain about being rejected by one publisher and accepted by the next. A lot of times that's because publishers target particular markets. Selecting the wrong title not only diminishes their image, but it diminishes the number of readers (which hurts the author).

      I'm not saying that publishers are perfect since their practices can be downright ugly. But they would have disappeared a long time ago if they didn't serve a purpose.

    34. Re:There is room for both. by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      That assumes your book ever generates a profit... the vast majority don't and the publisher eats the losses. So you have a choice, assume the risk yourself, or trade income to someone else in return for them accepting the losses.

    35. Re:There is room for both. by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Publishers serve another important function: they filter out the crap.

      We can crowd source that.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    36. Re:There is room for both. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmm...seems most people miss the point. The point is not a (potentially) evil Amazon or the decline of the book publishing model that has been in place, but the very fact that any industry where a middle man has a stranglehold on their position between producers and consumers...is eventually doomed. In one way or another.

      The point about Amazon not having editors is not only false (their publishing house does have editors) those that choose to publish themselves via ebooks can now buy everything the publishers used to provide. Editorial services can be purchased, cover art can be purchased and marketing can of course be purchased.

      This is not necessarily the absolute end for book publishers, but it will change.

      I dont know that I hope the publishing industry will adapt. If they can come up with a service that adds value to the process and that the author cannot obtain on their own....then they will survive. As it stands Amazon and other direct publishing venues, along with the ease of locating editors/artists/marketing on the internet has given the producers direct access to the consumer...that is not a gate you can just shut.

    37. Re:There is room for both. by west · · Score: 1

      Mr. Card has his issues. I suspect that the pressure he faced (from both editors and fans) was to darn well finish the multiple series he started (and was paid for)! (Although I gather he may well have had pretty understandable personal reasons for this blaming the editors seems a little tawdry.)

      I suspect that "trilogy creep" is more likely to occur when an author realizes that *his* salary may depend on a sequel. After all, on a per book basis, the author has a *lot* more invested than the editor. In fact, I've heard editors express the sentiment that they would like to see the certain series wrapped up, but the author is reluctant. This may be because of monetary considerations, but it's also quite possible that the author is now thoroughly invested in his or her characters, and is not yet ready to bid them adieu. However, most likely of all is that the story the author meant to tell has grown and simply cannot be satisfactorily told in fewer books (at least in the author's mind).

      Now, to be fair, I am speaking about a series where there is essentially a single story (with multiple arcs) spread over several books (as were the Martin, Jordan and Rowling series mentioned). I suspect that there may be more pressure from editors to "do another book" in those series that *don't* have a definitive end point (Laurel Hamilton, etc.) if the series is doing well. But once again, I suspect that the pressure comes from the author more than the editor.

      Truthfully, from my reading, the main pressure authors feel nowadays is to wrap up series faster than they would like because the sales are good, but not spectacular, and the editor wants to move on to the next thing. Certainly by volume of author complaint, that's a far bigger concern for mid-list sf/fantasy authors.

    38. Re:There is room for both. by adri · · Score: 2

      The crowd sources Jersey Shore, Do You Think You Can Dance and The Biggest Loser.

      Please, try again.

    39. Re:There is room for both. by BoberFett · · Score: 1

      Amazon's suggestion engine will suggest things that your crowd likes, not what the Jersey Shore crowd. Unless of course your crowd is Jersey Shore, in which case I'm not sure what you're complaining about.

    40. Re:There is room for both. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes you need someone else,not you, to judge your work and make useful suggestions but...

      I use to buy books that are incomplete before they are fully written, this way you have a lot of users feedback. It is standard practice now with a lot of technical books. Fans love to contribute and to help their favorite authors.

      You can also have this thing called "friends" in the trade that will read your book and feedback too. If you are good you will have a lot of already successful people that will gladly read and comment your book. It is also becoming a standard practice to get yourself to take part on a network of writers that will give you professional advice for cheap(what it takes a dinner invitation or good beer or wine).

      If you want you can also buy the services of a professional editor, you can pay them if you have money. If you don't have money but have talent, just write without editors!!, in the blogging era not having an editor is just a poor excuse for not starting. Of course your first work is not going to be perfect, you will improve over time.

    41. Re:There is room for both. by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Publishers serve another important function: they filter out the crap.

      We can crowd source that.

      A crowd does not have taste, all it will tell you is what is popular.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    42. Re:There is room for both. by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure hiring an editor for $10k and then self publishing is a far better deal than handing a lion's share of your profit to a publisher over 20,40,80 years.

      Bollocks, most authors don't even make $10K profit from a book.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    43. Re:There is room for both. by stub667 · · Score: 1

      If you have a draft decent enough that it could be picked up by a traditional publisher, you have a draft decent enough to get an editor for a share of the profits. No need for cash up front. I think this will become a common model. And the end result will be a well edited book, unlike stuff that goes through the big publishing houses which certainly is not - if it is midlist they don't want to spend the money for more than basic copy editing (and its obvious they often don't even bother with paying a starving student to do even that!).

    44. Re:There is room for both. by rossjudson · · Score: 1

      Couldn't agree with you more. I find it almost impossible to buy e-books by going through the Kindle storefront. The lists of books in some categories are dominated by cheap, self-published works with hundreds of glowing reviews. Amazon cheerfully publishes these, of course. Most of them definitely wouldn't make it through a traditional publishing process; the quality isn't there, and they're badly edited.

      I find it much more useful to work through the print bookstore instead. What I find there has been through the "middlemen", and as a result is usually of substantially higher quality. Since Amazon lists the various editions of a book, I can flip over to the Kindle version and purchase that, if I want to.

      I understand the economics of the situation, and that an author can often earn more money by selling direct. What I'm getting at is that for me, as a reader, I wish Amazon had the ability to simply filter out any content that hasn't been through a publisher. I don't want to see it. I've bought at least ten of them based on the reviews, and haven't read a good one yet.

      Of course I'm not saying that good self published works don't exist; they do. Most of them aren't good, though, and they are crowding out works of vastly superior quality. There are parallels to cheap imported goods.

      For me, the Kindle store will be useful the day it allows me to filter based on publisher. If you hit the Kindle bookstore as of this writing and select the SF/High Tech category, positions 1 through 9 of the first ten books listed by popularity are self-published. Number 10 is Snow Crash. Sort by average customer review, and all ten top books are self-published.

      I guess I could keep hitting "next page" over and over again, trying to wade through piles of chaff.

      In short, a publisher's imprint has commercial value, and value to consumers as a mark of quality. I hope they can adapt and not be discarded in the name of middleman elimination.

    45. Re:There is room for both. by AdamJS · · Score: 1

      What? All you need to read an ebook is a computer. I'm pretty sure there's even web based readers available now. Granted, that's more of a requirement than the paper copy, which is just having the actual copy. The spread of the internet alone lets you get it into more peoples' hands. However, there's a far higher risk of those people just spreading your unfinished work, or giving you terrible feedback. But this does create a market for an entrepreneurial editor who would be willing to review and correct books he's sent over the internet though. Credibility would be an issue at first, but scanlators and similar for foreign works have gotten by alright so there may be some sort of market.

    46. Re:There is room for both. by mbourgon · · Score: 1

      Depends on the publisher. For instance, in music I trust Cuneiform and in books I trust Tor: odds are that a random CD/book from them would appeal to me. Which makes me more willing to take chances and find new authors. That, to me, is the role of a publisher - a consistent image/brand/quality.

      Also: do you want your authors getting loans, hiring editors, finding authors, approving cover art...
      or do you want them Writing Books?

      --
      "Sometimes a woman is a kind of religion, she can save your soul & set you free from all your sins" - Bad Examples
    47. Re:There is room for both. by Quirkz · · Score: 1

      The few authors I've talked to about this idea (admittedly small selection) seemed pretty appalled at the idea of sharing profits with editors, rather than paying a flat fee. The few editors I've talked to also don't seem thrilled about the idea of doing what might be entirely free work.

    48. Re:There is room for both. by Quirkz · · Score: 1

      How good is Amazon's suggestion engine? Does it include self-published ebooks? I've seen enough recommendations for mass-market products based on recent purchases and the page I'm looking at, but I've never seen them recommend anything that didn't seem like a traditionally published work.

    49. Re:There is room for both. by Quirkz · · Score: 1

      more then twice.

      then => than. You reinforce your point well.

    50. Re:There is room for both. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Editors?

      http://www.amazon.com/gp/jobs/149691/ref=j_sr_2_t?ie=UTF8&category=%2A&location=%2A&keywords=editor&page=1

      (I'm adding this text so that the human-detection system knows that I'm human.)

    51. Re:There is room for both. by Quirkz · · Score: 1

      There's also copy editing/proofreading and then there's editing. Copy editors aren't too expensive -- I've done freelance work in the past for $20/hour, and tended to average $600 - $800 for a book. That's an expensive commitment to pay out of pocket, but not entirely prohibitive if you're really driven. However, as the copy editor I was also the second, third or sometimes fourth editor type to look at the book, long after previous editors had addressed major issues like book structure, organization, and heavily reworked, added, or removed large chunks of text. I was just putting on the polish.

    52. Re:There is room for both. by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Indeed. English is my third language. I assume your first is german?

    53. Re:There is room for both. by Quirkz · · Score: 1

      Is that an extremely subtle grammar nazi joke, or did I actually say something that made me sound German? I wouldn't have bothered posting a correction at all, if not for what I saw as an amusing context.

      For the record, English is the only language I'm competent at, though I used to know some Spanish and I've had a semester of German.

    54. Re:There is room for both. by Walter+Carver · · Score: 1

      This doesn't make any sense. The publisher spends the time to bring a book into paper but then forgoes it?

  9. Create Value or die. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    So... if the publisher provides enough value, they'll be fine (either editing, advertising, business advice, advances to allow the writer to eat while writing, etc etc). Publishers will die if they:
    Don't provide value...
    or
    Don't provide enough Value to justify the cost...
    or
    Amazon provides good enough value relative to publishers and is just easier to work with, or the writer ends up making more money...

    Publishers either need to reinvent themselves to stay abreast of the changing business landscape. Railroads diminished in power because they thought they were in the Railroad business. They're not; They were in the transportation business, and failed to adapt.

    This is just more market myopia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marketing_myopia

    "The Myopic culture, Levitt postulated, would pave the way for a business to fail, due to the short-sighted mindset and illusion that a firm is in a so-called 'growth industry'. This belief leads to complacency and a loss of sight of what your customers want."

  10. Good! by drunkennewfiemidget · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The more of these middle man made-up positions we can remove, the better.

    Next up: record executives, realtors, and oil prospectors.

    1. Re:Good! by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      oil prospectors.

      You know where the oil is and how to get it? Uncle Jed? Is that you?

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    2. Re:Good! by Bucky24 · · Score: 1

      Realtors can be useful. Yes they do take quite a bit off the top of the house price, but they take care of all the paperwork (for both buyer and seller), show people around the house, and do advertising. For someone who doesn't have time to do that themselves, they can be very useful.

      --
      All the world's a CPU, and all the men and women merely AI agents
    3. Re:Good! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah who needs them high falutin geophysicists with their phds and highly specialised engineering hardware. I just let my dog dig holes in the lawn until we hit a nice oil fountain sooner or later.

    4. Re:Good! by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Nothing prevents you from doing "for sale by owner". Realtors are a tad overpriced, but they have expenses that are not obvious at first glance. They use premium quality direct advertising, which is not inexpensive.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    5. Re:Good! by snerdy · · Score: 1

      Next up: record executives, realtors, and oil prospectors.

      You forgot telephone sanitizers, account executives, tired T.V. producers, insurance salesmen, personnel officers, security guards and management consultants. Plenty of space in the B Ark!

    6. Re:Good! by WillDraven · · Score: 2

      As somebody who works in real estate, I can say, that while the average slashdotter may not need one, the average joe has absolutely no idea how to buy or sell a house. At least half of a realtors job is hand holding clients to keep them from doing something incredibly stupid. They don't always listen, and at the end of the day the realtor is your agent and if you insist on being dumb the realtor will execute that dumb decision for you. I'm not saying there aren't bad realtors. If you pick any profession you can find examples of morons working it, but if you have a competent professional realtor it is in your average buyer/seller's best interest to listen to them.

      --
      This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is mine.
    7. Re:Good! by SecurityGuy · · Score: 1

      You're a realtor, then, or have one in the family?

      I used a realtor but for some reason still needed a real estate lawyer, so the realtor didn't "take care of all the paperwork". The realtor didn't advertise anything, unless by that you mean "put a sign in the yard" and post it on MLS. Posting things on a web site isn't exactly something that we should pay much for these days. Yes, realtors show people houses, too, which near as I can tell is the bulk of the work. For that, we pay the princely sum of 6% of the sale price of the house, or $6,000-$9,000 for a modestly priced house in these parts. Of course that gets split between the buyer and seller agent, and the actual person you deal with doesn't remotely get all of it. The majority is swallowed by the company before the lowly agent gets his cut. Yes, I too have a realtor in the family.

      Realtors are going to be replaced by something cheaper. Right now, they've got most of the market tied up because they own the MLS, and when someone goes to a realtor looking for a house, they're only shown houses from the MLS. The value they provide is entirely artificial. They grant you access to a resource that is only scarce because they make it so.

  11. Good... by Lumpy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Publishers typically have been leeches. Sucking 98% of the profit out of a book.

    It's high time that writers were able to sell to a reader and keep most of the sale, they did 90% of the work, they deserve 90% of the sale price.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    1. Re:Good... by hedwards · · Score: 1

      The writers didn't do 90% of the work, what you're forgetting about are the editors, the typesetters, the people that bind the book, the people that distribute the book, the cost of shelf space on which the book sits before being bought.

      In short, there are a lot of expenses that come from publishing a book, and suggesting that the publishing industry is keeping 98% of the profits is ignorant. The retailer itself will typically take half the sticker price.

      Yes, the writers should get a larger slice of the pie, but it's not quite as bad as you're making it out to be. I hope to sell a novel at some point, and I do intend to do nearly all the work myself and probably self publish in ebook form so as to keep as much of the profit as possible, but publishers do have expenses that they need to pay in order to provide their service to the writer.

    2. Re:Good... by hebertrich · · Score: 1

      A text is not a book. A book is an object. It is way more than just a print.It is an object of collection ,
      It lines libraries in their shapes and varieties of colors.The paper feel under the fingers , the hard cover , the smell. It is an object.
      Amazon cant give you that what a really good publisher would. Make of your book an object of art, want and desire.
      Unless Amazon starts a new printing business , they cant replace what publishers do to great books.
      Yes some are totally unfair.But remember than by cutting them out the equation it's going to be tough to
      get anything printed other than through a photocopier and anything look better than a harlequin romance..

    3. Re:Good... by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      But that sale price includes a lot of the cost of an actual book. Manufacturing, printing, distribution, salaries of everyone involved in the long chain including the people who stock the book on the shelves at the local book store. Should a book cost over $100 just so the author can get 90% of the sale price of a book that costs $10 to make and deliver?

      Consider it like this. The author does the initial work but then has to hire people to do the remaining "10%". If they can find cheaper publishers then they should consider that while realizing that lower sales means less revenue on their end. Self publish and market and distribute a book and the true cost becomes known.

    4. Re:Good... by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      And all the new authors that need an advance so they can focus on writing their first and second books should just go to hell, right?

    5. Re:Good... by bdam · · Score: 2

      Disclaimer: I work for a book publisher. The author takes nearly zero percent of the financial risks. Contracts vary of course but it is typical for an author to receive an advance on signing the contract and on delivering the manuscript. These are advances against the royalty the book is expected to earn but unless there is a breach of contract that advance is not returned to the publisher. The publisher then puts all the money up front to edit, design, print, and distribute the book to retailers. If the book does not sell then the publisher gives the retailer a full refund and eats the whole thing as a loss. E-books are great because they take out the costs associated with printing the books and dealing with returns but they still eat the costs when a book flops ... and most books flop. So yes, self publishing is a great option for those authors who are willing to invest the time to write a book, the money to hire professional editors and designers, and the risk that they won't make a dime. Oh, and they have to figure out how to market it, convert it into an e-book, and deal with all the sales bullshit. This might be crazy talk but most authors are dedicated people who love to write books. Few desire to spend the time and energy on the business side of things to produce, market, and sell those books.

    6. Re:Good... by west · · Score: 2

      Publishers typically have been leeches. Sucking 98% of the profit out of a book.

      Wow. Know *anything* about the industry?

      Let me give you the fundamentals: Now that we have viable self-publishing, there are perhaps 100,000 books published a month, and if we look at sf/fantasy genre fiction, a few thousand books published a month (all but maybe 50-100 self-published) in your particular genre. Most readers aren't even going to *look* at more than 30-40 titles a month, so there needs to be some filtering mechanism. This is why a self-published book by an unknown author sells on average a few dozen copies.

      Moreover, it's a trap. Anything that a self-published author can do to promote the book, the other 2,000 authors can do as well. Still too many books for any human being to even look at. Reviews? Reviewers face the same problem, even if they're willing to wade the sea of self-published books, they're going to review a handful a month, and, to be honest, most (not all, but most) won't be of high quality, which is why they were self-published anyway.

      Publishers basically serve the function of gatekeeper because they're willing to invest $20K of their money in the book, and most importantly of all, they don't care about the author, only about how they think the author's book will appeal to the reader. This means their opinion means something (unlike if the author invested the money in themselves), and is the sole reason why bookstores will carry a traditionally published book and won't touch self-published ones. They too need someway of reducing a few thousand titles into a few dozen and publishers are the only way of doing so for new and unknown authors.

      Without publishers, every author I know would be doing something else for a living and bookstores as we know it wouldn't exist.

      Sorry, but the idea that the world beats a path to the door of the inventor of the better mousetrap is something for teenagers to believe in. Surely you're old enough to have a somewhat more nuanced view of the world?

    7. Re:Good... by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      This isn't 1960. Typesetting is mostly automated; the author has already done most of the typesetting work by putting the book in electronic form. Binding is not a labor intensive process.

      A bookstore gets the book at a wholesale price (generally 40% off cover price, but there are exceptions where they get less off). The cost of shelfspace is the retailer's problem, not the publisher's.

      The writer generally gets a percentage of the cover price times the number of copies sold, on a sliding scale with the percentage going up as the number of copies sold increases. That percentage might run from 2% for low sales to 10% or 12% for a million copies. Obviously, the publisher isn't getting 98% of the profits, nor is it getting even half the gross after expenses.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    8. Re:Good... by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      And all the new authors that need an advance so they can focus on writing their first and second books should just go to hell, right?

      I don't think many first time authors get an advance from anyone...

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    9. Re:Good... by rossjudson · · Score: 1

      The quickest way to find a list of decent books in the SF category is to filter Amazon's results by hardcover format only. There you'll find works that publishers believe are worthy of the hardcover format.

  12. Editors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's not just writers and readers...any successful writer will tell you that editors are also an essential part of the process. Amazon will either have to provide authors with editors or come up with a situation where editors can work on projects as independent contractors.

    1. Re:Editors by hedwards · · Score: 1

      Amazon provides that service through https://www.createspace.com/ they may provide it in other ways, but you can get editors like that. You can also hire your own editor through the editors guild, http://edsguild.org/ this is the one for the North West, but I"m sure there are options like this in other parts of the country. It is expensive and ideally you wouldn't be paying for the service up front, but it is an option if you intend to self publish.

  13. Amazon... by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 1

    I didn't RTFA- [I don't read any articles that require me to log in first] so if I'm misunderstanding the synopsis- apologies in advance.

    I've often considered writing a novel, there is an idea I've been burning to write for years. My terrible grammer has always held me back from writing.

    IF I were to write though, I would not trust Amazon to publish for me. IF I write- I'd want my work to be available to as many people as possible- I wouldn't want to be limited by one vendor (as I suspect signing for Amazon would ultimately do).

    Signing for Amazon would be the ultimate statement of "I've grown as much as I can, now I'll sell-out".

    --
    "That's the way to do it" - Punch
    1. Re:Amazon... by gstoddart · · Score: 2

      Of course, the flip-side to that is that you as a new author are quite likely to languish as nobody is interested in your work because nobody has heard of you.

      What we've been seeing with iTunes and people who self-publish these things through Amazon, is that you can potentially make vastly more by selling it cheaply and having a large number of people download it and you get paid directly than you would otherwise. If you're getting 75% or so of each $0.99 download, versus the few pennies (or less) you'd make otherwise, you get much more cash.

      Assuming you got past your terrible "grammer" and spelling, you might find you could make more by cutting out the middle-men and letting Amazon do the selling.

      That's likely what they're banking on, and if they could get some exclusive content from successful authors, they could potentially make a truckload of money by not having to pay the publishers.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    2. Re:Amazon... by Infiniti2000 · · Score: 1

      I didn't RTFA- [I don't read any articles that require me to log in first] ...

      You don't need to login if you're using FF. Just go to Tools->RefControl Options and set "http://www.google.com" as the referrer for the site "nytimes.com" and probably any other similar site. Or just set google up as the default. This gets you to their site without login required as they enable Google so that searches can get their data.

    3. Re:Amazon... by Imrik · · Score: 1

      You left out the step where you install the RefControl Add-on.

    4. Re:Amazon... by Infiniti2000 · · Score: 1

      You left out the step where you install the RefControl Add-on.

      Thanks, it's been so long I forgot that wasn't a standard Add-on. That, ad-block, and no-script should all be standard by now!

  14. She was debt-ridden by future+assassin · · Score: 0

    From http://kianadavenportdialogues.blogspot.com/2011/08/sleeping-with-enemy-cautionary-tale.html But I was debt-ridden and needed upfront money that an advance would provide.

    Maybe going off topic and I don't know if writing is all she does(http://jakonrath.blogspot.com/2011/03/depression-and-writers.html) but wouldn't having a full time job be a solution to your debt problems instead of leading an "artists" life and if you can't find work locally its time to move on.

    --
    by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
    1. Re:She was debt-ridden by SpiralSpirit · · Score: 1

      She was debt ridden because it took her too long to write her novel, her publisher offered a shitty overall deal, a shitty advance, and she seemingly had no choice. desperation drove her to to self publish, and the big publishers are so scared of real money making authors self-publishing they're trying to starve her out. they're holding 4 years of her work for a $20k advance they gave her, even while its entirely possible (nay, likely, since $20k is not reasonably enough to not publish for 2 years) she never breached her contract. Writing books is hard work and the publishing industry is brutal. Most authors don't make JK Rowling like money, and live off of advances. The death of the traditional book publishing industry will probably make life better for most authors.

  15. Writers ahoy! Self-publish! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Cut the middle men away. Self-publish!

    There's plenty of services, like lulu.com. Google for more.

    Self-publish. You know how it's done, so what do you need Amazon for?

    1. Re:Writers ahoy! Self-publish! by 0123456 · · Score: 2

      You know how it's done, so what do you need Amazon for?

      Marketing.

      Self-publishing through Amazon or other e-book retailers is fine, but for many authors having Amazon push your book through their marketing capabilities (e.g. 'You bought 'An Ideal Husband', so you might like 'An Ideal Husband And Zombies') is worth a percentage of royalties and potential restrictions on other e-book retailers who might not want to sell Amazon-published books.

    2. Re:Writers ahoy! Self-publish! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Marketing

      Use Facebook, Twitter, make a new service, whatever. Make people know you as a writer... Get recognized by your readers.

      It's a trade-off. How big a percentage would you gain with self-publishing, where you keep basically all the income, vs. hooking up with Amazon?

      Sure, Amazon has a massive marketing apparatus, but no writer is there by themselves. Amazon doesn't care if the sale will be the "you the writer" or someone else, as long as it's a sale.

      The consumers are oversaturated with "buy now" and "you liked X you might like Y". They cannot buy everything and do not want to drown in meaningless volley of product push.

      There's a high chance that someone who likes a book from a writer will look for more. In that case it's almost a sure-fire sell, regardless of Amazon.

    3. Re:Writers ahoy! Self-publish! by anyGould · · Score: 1

      More important than the marketing is the distribution channels.

      You can write a book without a publisher. You can get it edited (and a lot of author groups will edit each others' work to save on costs). Getting it to look pretty isn't that expensive anymore either with digital publishing. Getting it printed ain't bad either.

      None of that counts for squat unless you can get stores to actually carry it. And that's where the big publishers shine - they have the ins with B&N and Chapters and Indigo and Coles, so they can get your book in hundreds of stores across the country. Smaller publishers have problems getting a store to pick up the phone.

    4. Re:Writers ahoy! Self-publish! by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Usefulness of free channels is extremely limited when it comes to marketing, and you will be overshadowed and forgotten when competitor with similar book will have a proper marketing machine behind him.

  16. What a maroon! by msobkow · · Score: 1

    'The only really necessary people in the publishing process now are the writer and reader,' adds Russell Grandinetti, one of Amazon's top executives

    A good editor is the critical difference between a hack and a best seller. Very, very few writers produce a polished work right out of the gate.

    But if Amazon wants to go this way, why not take it a step further and eliminate the distributor entirely?

    --
    I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    1. Re:What a maroon! by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      A good editor is the critical difference between a hack and a best seller.

      Putting two dozen copies of the book in a prominent place in every airport bookstore and Walmart in the country is the critical difference between a hack and a best seller.

    2. Re:What a maroon! by Raul654 · · Score: 1

      You could put two dozen copies of Ass Goblins of Auschwitz in
      every grocery store, book store, and magazine stand in American and I promise it would still not be a best seller.

      --


      To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
      --E.C. Stanton
    3. Re:What a maroon! by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      You could put two dozen copies of Ass Goblins of Auschwitz in
      every grocery store, book store, and magazine stand in American and I promise it would still not be a best seller.

      If 'Angels And Demons' can become a best-seller, 'Ass Goblins of Auschwitz' certainly can.

    4. Re:What a maroon! by SpiralSpirit · · Score: 1

      Amazon now has editors. I assure you they can afford to pay them just as much as the big publishers. Hell, I bet once authors start making a decent amount of what their books sell for they could hire them themselves.

    5. Re:What a maroon! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're misunderstanding -- they're saying the intermediate processes (editing, publicity, publishing per se, and distribution) can be taken on by anyone, not eliminated entirely -- perhaps an independent editor, word-of-mouth/blog publicity, and ebooks self-published and -distributed with your own server and whatever ecommerce system you like. Or split between a publisher and a distributor (the traditional model). Or they can all be done by Amazon (presumably hiring their own editors), cutting out the publishers entirely, and without losing all hope of big-time success like selfpublishing does...

    6. Re:What a maroon! by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      Very true, but there are a bunch of freelance editors. Of course that means money up front from the author (or some wheeling and dealing).

    7. Re:What a maroon! by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Angels and demons is a fairly well flowing book with elements that tickle a modern book reader in many right ways. It may not suit your tastes, but it does for majority.

      You're essentially making "linux is a better OS" argument. Sure, it may be, but it's Joe Average and his boss that decide which one will be successful, not you.

    8. Re:What a maroon! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was gonna say. You can polish the hell out of a piece of crap, but in the end, it's still shit.

      If however it's drummed up as the next big thing in every bookstore, with all the typical 'best read of the year' type comments on the front that can be cherrypicked (or made up or bought) from anywhere, then sheep will buy it because that's what sheep do... listen to what people tell them and follow their orders.

      And of course everyone knows most sales come from the sheep.

    9. Re:What a maroon! by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      I love the "customers who bought this item also bought" suggestions there.

      I'd buy a couple of copies of "Rampaging Fuckers of Everything on the Crazy Shitting Planet of the Vomit Atmosphere" just to leave lying around my house to worry visitors.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    10. Re:What a maroon! by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      You're essentially making "linux is a better OS" argument. Sure, it may be, but it's Joe Average and his boss that decide which one will be successful, not you.

      But a book doesn't need to be a bestseller to be successful.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    11. Re:What a maroon! by AdamJS · · Score: 1

      And that is a crying shame. Really though. How DID you find that gem?

    12. Re:What a maroon! by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Neither does OS, as linux showed us. But the kind of success you will gain from such fame in book world isn't likely to let you write stuff for a living, allowing you to focus on it.

      Few individuals can do it. Contrasting this is a lot of smaller writers who can write for a living under publisher's wing.

    13. Re:What a maroon! by Raul654 · · Score: 1

      Amazon.com suggested it to me. I guess Amazon has decide that I'm weird. (And I guess they're right since I'm probably going to buy it at some point)

      --


      To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
      --E.C. Stanton
  17. Note to Authors by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 1

    Note to Authors: The old-line Big 6 publishing houses (you know who they are) still intend to own you. You are not an independent contractor working on an individual book basis in their eyes. They will lose this battle, but inflict a lot of pain on a lot of people in the process of this losing. Welcome to the 21st century -- all you books belong to us.

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
    1. Re:Note to Authors by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      Note to Authors: The old-line Big 6 publishing houses (you know who they are) still intend to own you.

      To be fair, so does Amazon, they just realize that they need to pry enough authors out of the hands of the existing major publishers first before they'll have the clout to use contract terms to do that.

  18. Has anyone ever....TRIED...getting signed... by raydobbs · · Score: 1

    ...by a traditional publisher? Not going to happen. Unless you happen to personally know a best selling author already in their stable, or one they are looking to help jump ship to them; they wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire. They are -so- risk adverse they will not publish new authors, and if you self-publish, your on a blacklist - no one will touch you. Is it any surprise that there is a market Amazon has seen, and has decided to exploit? Basically, the publishing industry is in the middle of the largest death-spiral they've ever seen, and they won't pull out of it because they are afraid of books bombing.

    Guess what geniuses? You need to promote your authors and books for them to sell, otherwise they will most likely bomb.

    1. Re:Has anyone ever....TRIED...getting signed... by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      Trade publishers publish tons of new authors every year. Most don't last beyond two or three books, but that's a different matter.

      Nor is there a 'self-publishing blacklist', though before the rise of e-books most people who self-published fiction did so because they couldn't write well enough to interest a publisher.

    2. Re:Has anyone ever....TRIED...getting signed... by madmark1 · · Score: 1

      Guess what genius? The article says they are aggressively wooing SUCCESSFUL authors. Not a place in there does it say anything about taking on any new writer able to toss a manuscript through their front window. What Amazon wants to do is take writers that publishers already paid marketing for, who have already hit it big, and grab them for a song, reaping the profits from someone else's expense. It has nothing to do with providing a bigger market for new authors, or being less 'risk averse". In fact, quite the opposite. This is nothing but attempting to bank money off a known hot commodity, that someone else already paid to polish and push.

      I am not now, nor have I ever been, a fan of the 'middlemen' such as record labels and publishing houses. What I don't see, however, is Amazon stepping up to provide any services at all, but merely waiting to bring in the windfall of selling their new hot writer, without having to pay for ads in the NYT, trade publications, on TV, or anywhere else, or having paid an editor to deal with prepping the book. If they aren't providing any of that, how are they any more than new middlemen, that provide even less service than the old ones?

    3. Re:Has anyone ever....TRIED...getting signed... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You aren't even allowed to submit your work to 99% of the publishers out there unless you have an agent. Try getting an agent without first having been published. It's a catch-22

    4. Re:Has anyone ever....TRIED...getting signed... by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      What I don't see, however, is Amazon stepping up to provide any services at all, but merely waiting to bring in the windfall of selling their new hot writer, without having to pay for ads in the NYT, trade publications, on TV, or anywhere else, or having paid an editor to deal with prepping the book.

      Why would Amazon be paying for 'ads in the NYT, trade publications, on TV, or anywhere else'? When was the last time you bought a book because of a TV ad or in a publishing trade mag?

      Amazon will be marketing to Amazon customers who have bought similar books before; that's vastly more effective than wasting millions on TV ads.

      Barry Eisler has written about his Amazon deal and from what I remember Amazon's marketing was one of the main reasons he listed for taking it.

    5. Re:Has anyone ever....TRIED...getting signed... by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      You aren't even allowed to submit your work to 99% of the publishers out there unless you have an agent.

      Not allowed?

      You think the publishing police will break down your door in the middle of the night if you send your novel to a publisher without going through an agent?

      The only person 'not allowing' you to submit to a publisher without going through an agent is you. I was reading a few weeks ago about another new author who submitted directly to an 'agent-only' publisher and now has a publishing contract with them.

      Of course if enough new authors realise this then publishers might really have to start rejecting unagented submissions the way most movie companies do. So let's just keep it between you and me.

    6. Re:Has anyone ever....TRIED...getting signed... by raydobbs · · Score: 1

      Not allowed as in 'We're sorry - we are unable to accept materials submitted to us without the representation of an agent. We have refused delivery of this item so it will be returned to you / destroyed for you by your chosen carrier, contents unopened. Please note for the future that we cannot and will not accept manuscripts submitted to us without prior approval of our legal department and/or without arrangement through an agent." boilerplate language in a brief, legally terse letter usually accompanying your manuscript back to you. So, no - nothing so exciting as SWAT drop-repelling through your windows and flash grenading you and your pets.

      As far as agents go, yeah - most don't accept just any client. You have to have a track record of published works usually to get an agent who won't rob you utterly blind or require exorbitant fees up-front.

      The publishing world is a walled-off castle with the drawbridge up - about time things are changed...

    7. Re:Has anyone ever....TRIED...getting signed... by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      Not allowed as in 'We're sorry - we are unable to accept materials submitted to us without the representation of an agent. We have refused delivery of this item so it will be returned to you / destroyed for you by your chosen carrier, contents unopened. Please note for the future that we cannot and will not accept manuscripts submitted to us without prior approval of our legal department and/or without arrangement through an agent." boilerplate language in a brief, legally terse letter usually accompanying your manuscript back to you.

      And yet, in the real world, new authors keep sending novels to 'agent-only' publishers and they get published anyway.

    8. Re:Has anyone ever....TRIED...getting signed... by sandytaru · · Score: 1

      I think this is the critical point that the traditional publishing houses are totally missing. I don't buy books because of advertisements or book reviews. I buy them because either 1. a friend suggested it 2. a forum suggested it (not the same as a review or an ad by any means) or, the most likely case, I saw the book in a bookstore and thought it looked interesting. Amazon's recommendation services actually do 90% of the work for me these days. I log in, and "Hey here's a book you might like." Sure enough, it's a genre that I like and the blurb on the back cover looks great. In my wishlist or cart it goes! Or they send me an email with "Stuff you might like." The remaining 10% comes from friends raving about a book.

      --
      Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.
    9. Re:Has anyone ever....TRIED...getting signed... by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Notably, this usually requires someone at the publisher to know about the author. It's a bit like looking for a job, quite often someone who doesn't have a proper degree will get a job regardless, usually either because someone in the company knows/owes him, or the person in question was extremely proactive and convinced someone important in the company ladder that it's worth it to give him a trial run.

    10. Re:Has anyone ever....TRIED...getting signed... by raydobbs · · Score: 1

      Exactly this. Bingo. Unless you already have an in-road somehow with the publisher, you're not making it past the lobby.

      Of course, you -might- get noticed by an employee who -happens- to not follow office protocol and opens your stuff, and -happens- to read it, and -maybe- likes it, and doesn't get caught before he/she -might- make you an offer. A lot of mights, maybe's, happenstances, and almosts there to hang a hope on - hence people get bitter and give up. For some - it takes one rejection letter, for others, it takes hundreds - but for a few - all it takes is the same rejection letter worded the same way by the top four for the same reasons:

      You don't have an agent
      We don't know you
      You -could- flop, so we won't even try
      Suck tea bags.

    11. Re:Has anyone ever....TRIED...getting signed... by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      ...by a traditional publisher? Not going to happen. Unless you happen to personally know a best selling author already in their stable, or one they are looking to help jump ship to them; they wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire. They are -so- risk adverse they will not publish new authors, and if you self-publish, your on a blacklist - no one will touch you. Is it any surprise that there is a market Amazon has seen, and has decided to exploit? Basically, the publishing industry is in the middle of the largest death-spiral they've ever seen, and they won't pull out of it because they are afraid of books bombing.

      Guess what geniuses? You need to promote your authors and books for them to sell, otherwise they will most likely bomb.

      You're a paranoid moron. Welcome to slashdot.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    12. Re:Has anyone ever....TRIED...getting signed... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's good - insulting someone makes you morally superior and your point more valid. No. Really.

  19. Will iTunes follow? by mveloso · · Score: 1

    Traditionally, media companies charge more because they do the marketing. They're the distribution arm, after all.

    Amazon can market authors much better than traditional publishers can. Good idea for everyone involved.

    The problem in music is that people who try to do it alone don't have the marketing muscle. iTunes could be that marketeer, but it isn't. But if amazon succeeds, maybe iTunes will follow.

    That would be a horrifying endgame for the labels.

    I suspect that iTunes isn't doing that because, well, it doesn't want to be the music publisher for the world.

    1. Re:Will iTunes follow? by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      Amazon can market authors much better than traditional publishers can.

      They can, but will they? If their costs are kept low, then there's no incentive to market. Just get as many books out there as possible.

    2. Re:Will iTunes follow? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Umm. Wouldn't that violate Apple Records agreement even worse then they already do.

    3. Re:Will iTunes follow? by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 1

      Which is still better than what traditional publishers do.

    4. Re:Will iTunes follow? by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      > That would be a horrifying endgame for the labels.

      I enjoyed the article; now I'm enjoying the discussion even more!

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
  20. The Internet: Death of the Middleman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The broad availability the internet enables means middlemen left and right are going out of business. Either that or scrambling to find relevancy in today's modern world (RIAA, MPAA, lookin' at you).

  21. I'm alright with that... by QuebecNerd · · Score: 1

    As the world changes, it's perfectly normal that people/company/organisation/language/laws/product/... will become irrelevant. The real crime is not adapting and artificially insisting on remaining relevant. The record companies have been doing that for years, the book publishers as well and at a later time, the movie studios will to. The only reason it hasn't happened yet to the movie studios is the relatively high budget of movies as opposed to the one of books and music.

    That being said, the internet is providing a direct pathway from the authors to the reader. Amazon is a publisher in this picture but it is selling directly to the reader so there one (or more) person to feed down the line. Everybody wins except the superfluous people who are not relevant and became greedy to compensate for a loss of revenues instead of adapting. Apple and Google will probably do the same and some artist/writers will try to sell directly to listeners/readers. It's all good and I'm alright with that.

  22. Now just one point of failure by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

    This makes a nice business opportunity as long as ebook readers can read plain PDFs.

    1. Make an open, DRM-free ebook store that can undercut Amazon significantly (easy to do). Remember it's mostly the publishers that want DRM, not the authors.
    2. Amazon fails
    3. Profit! And you made the world a better place by doing it, a twofer!

    Yep no ??? step here!

    --
    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    1. Re:Now just one point of failure by jandrese · · Score: 2

      Isn't Step 2: Find some content to put on your network? I mean if you have no authors from any major publisher on your store, how do you expect to attract people to it? It's sort of like those MP3 stores that existed before iTunes where your choice was "horrible overpriced mess with obnoxious DRM and scant handful songs from one label" or "Indie crap that appeals to maybe a few dozen people worldwide, and then mostly so they can be more indie than you." Both models were terrible failures for obvious reasons.

      The difficulty isn't in setting up a DRM free marketplace, it is getting content on that marketplace. If it's good people will buy it, but good luck getting anything good when you have to work completely outside of the publishers. You'll get a few titles from authors willing (or desperate) enough to take the chance, but you're competing with publishers that will put out literally thousands of quality titles (and tens of thousands of crap titles).

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    2. Re:Now just one point of failure by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Good point, once Amazon has enough market power they'll probably start requiring exclusivity in their contracts :-(

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    3. Re:Now just one point of failure by badboy_tw2002 · · Score: 1

      Right, because your new store is going to have the content, delivery system, marketing, customer base, customer trust, logistics, and funding to defeat Amazon. I'd like to help! I'm guessing this will probably take 2-3 days to code up, (less if I use Ruby) so lets plan for a world wide announcement on this comment at that point. With 40-50 million page views a day, its pretty much all you need to do to guarantee a flood of users.

      Stay tuned folks, its about to get CRAZY up in here!

    4. Re:Now just one point of failure by TPoise · · Score: 1

      I believe authors do want DRM on their eBooks. You send can easily send a PDF around to your entire Google Contacts List in a matter of seconds much easier than you can share the latest XViD scene rip.

    5. Re:Now just one point of failure by SpiralSpirit · · Score: 1

      pdfs? Most ebooks (except scientific papers and textbooks) don't use pdfs. epub, mobi, and lit are the big players with actual ebooks. As to undercutting amazon - you're basically going up against an entrenched, well connected, well marketed, well known, and well funded opponent. good luck.

    6. Re:Now just one point of failure by blair1q · · Score: 1

      Your problem with step 2 is that Amazon is making enough money selling pots and pans and iPhone protective skins to fail at selling self-published books for a looooooooong time. Longer than your lifetime, times ten.

    7. Re:Now just one point of failure by Pi1grim · · Score: 1

      Yeah, because DRM was so successful in stopping piracy, unlike those convenient distribution methods and one-click purchases with sane prices.

    8. Re:Now just one point of failure by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      That would be textbook definition of monopoly abuse, and they'd be likely slapped very quickly for doing so, at least in EU.

    9. Re:Now just one point of failure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As opposed to the case where you buy a DRMed ebook where you spend an additional five seconds running the DRM-striping program on the ebook before sending it around. DRM doesn't stop piracy, it just makes it more difficult for law-abiding customers to use the content (for example by format shifting).

    10. Re:Now just one point of failure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're a fucking 'tard. Did your parents really waste money on sending you through school? Or did you leach off Uncle Sam? I'll bet you wear your fucking pants low so everyone can see your filthy underpants, and let me guess, you "board", right?

      Nailed it, you're a fucking TARD.

  23. Forget all of this nonsense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    1. Re:Forget all of this nonsense by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      In a skeletor kind of way.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
  24. Amazon's rates may be good now..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But wait until they have squeezed out the competition, and then everything will begin to look much differently.

  25. Amazon has editors too by sirwired · · Score: 1

    If you were to actually read TFA by the NYT, you would find that Amazon employs editors of their own, which edit books published by Amazon's publishing wing (and which has so far published 122 books.) I would assume they pay advances and edit, in return for exclusive rights to the work, just like any other publisher.

    This is distinct from the platform on the website that allows anyone to sell any eBook on the website.

    1. Re:Amazon has editors too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah I don't think people understand that the Amazon publishing wing is publishing paper books. This is not about self pubbing your ebook.

    2. Re:Amazon has editors too by Raenex · · Score: 2

      If you were to actually read TFA by the NYT

      It was behind a login wall for me. Fuck that. Slashdotters barely bother reading articles, nevermind putting up with stupid barriers.

    3. Re:Amazon has editors too by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1

      If you were to actually read TFA by the NYT ...

      No. Just don't go there.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
  26. They take profit from successful books by sirwired · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Publishers take a lot of the profit from successful books. They also end up paying a lot of advances on complete duds on which they lost money. (Same thing with music labels.) Vanity publishing has always been available to authors that think they can make more money by cutting out the middleman. (If you could convince a bookstore to carry the things... most booksellers have better things to do than wade through self-published crap.)

    I agree that the traditional publishing model is now becoming outdated with the advent of e-books, but it had it's purpose at the time.

    1. Re:They take profit from successful books by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Traditional publishing is seeing a hint of starting to begin a possibility of becoming outdated. But it's not here yet and it won't be here for a very long time to come. Ebooks are rare and read only by a small number of people and are an inconsequential fragment of the market. The true threat to publishing is that the total number of book readers (paper or pixels) is declining.

    2. Re:They take profit from successful books by RocketRabbit · · Score: 1

      I hope you realize what an advance is. It comes out of the author's future earnings on the book. If the book flops the advance has to be paid back, often with interest!

      No, advances don't cost the publishing industry a dime.

    3. Re:They take profit from successful books by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      they never lose the advance, it;s advance on royalties, if the book does not sell the author still owes the advance to the publisher, same with music. So unless the author goes bankrupt they do not lose a cent.

    4. Re:They take profit from successful books by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      I hope you realize what an advance is. It comes out of the author's future earnings on the book. If the book flops the advance has to be paid back, often with interest!

      No, advances don't cost the publishing industry a dime.

      One word, genius: cashflow.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    5. Re:They take profit from successful books by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

      most booksellers have better things to do than wade through self-published crap

      Such as taking discounts, promotional materials, and shelf placement deals that for all practical purposes are payola.

  27. Change or die by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Amazon was able to get into the publishing business because of the publishers unwillingness to change. It is a big shift for the industry and the publishers that are willing to embrace it will survive and that ones that aren't will die.

  28. What is this "blacklist"? by sirwired · · Score: 1

    There is no self-publishing "blacklist." What IS blacklisted is individual works that have already been "published" by a vanity house like PublishAmerica.

    And they "will not publish new authors?" What kind of crock is this? There are plenty of new authors that get published every year. Yes, most of the publicity, and sales, goes to proven authors, but that is to be expected.

    1. Re:What is this "blacklist"? by sandytaru · · Score: 1

      The trick is, of course, to use a different pent name if you've self-published. And to not mention it in your query letters. Ever. (Since it's a different "person.")

      --
      Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.
    2. Re:What is this "blacklist"? by raydobbs · · Score: 1

      When I was attempting to write for mass market, I managed to contact a few of the larger publishers - and were all told the same thing:

      If I knew someone in their current stable who could vouch for me, and was willing to take the hit if my books bombed - they'd sign me. If not, they weren't signing new talent - with or without an agent. Sorry, wasn't happening.

      Of course, I knew some people in some places - and if push came to shove - I could get published by some place like Tor or Harlequin (if I wanted to write love novels) but their contracts for new writers was indentured servitude (mostly); and they would NOT even review your materials if you EVER published anything through a Publish-on-Demand publisher or self-published. Ever.

      It really put a damper on my writing - and I am just now starting to recover to the point of wanting to write again - mostly because I know if I want to put a story out there, I don't have to turn to these people anymore - there ARE now other avenues to get my stories out there, and I don't have to sign my life away to get exposure. If the world of back-room deals to get published is coming to an end, I welcome it with open arms and wild enthusiasm.

    3. Re:What is this "blacklist"? by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      The trick is, of course, to use a different pent name if you've self-published. And to not mention it in your query letters. Ever. (Since it's a different "person.")

      Yes, initial fraud is always a good basis for a business elationship.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  29. Re:The Question is by openfrog · · Score: 1

    Spot on: the question whether we want Amazon to be the only place to get book is THE question, which is neatly illustrated by this fine piece of Newspeak uttered by the Amazon's top executives mentioned in the summary:

    The only really necessary people in the publishing process now are the writer and reader

    Meaning: The only necessary part of the book publishing process (as demonstrated in the music and the film industries) is distribution and we are now going to take care of that.

  30. Self-publishing=Good; Amazon as a publisher=Bad by bigsexyjoe · · Score: 1

    If Amazon is both the largest seller of books and then uses that position to shove it's way into controlling the publishing space, that is a very bad thing. I hope they are found to be in violation of anti-trust laws. It is just as bad as MS using Windows to push IE.

    I was looking forward to the Internet leading to self-publishing replacing publishing companies. But it now seems like Amazon is going to subvert that. Instead of self-publishing, authors will be forced to enter into exclusive contracts with Amazon, and they will control books. Through Amazon Silk, they will also control the very content of the Internet itself. Going to Amazon to buy the books they like will be fast an easy. Going to an alternative book-seller, or a blog of someone who gives their writings away for free, won't be so easy.

  31. Vote with your money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't know about anyone else; but I now know what MY next ebook purchase will be - if only to spite the publishing racket's more vengeful flavor of dinosaur (even if I hate the rigmarole I have to go through to convert Kindle books to epubs: Bleh).

    1. Re:Vote with your money by Venotar · · Score: 1

      Damn skippy.

  32. Re:Self-publishing=Good; Amazon as a publisher=Bad by tgibbs · · Score: 1

    Which authors have been forced into exclusive contracts with Amazon?

  33. Re:Self-publishing=Good; Amazon as a publisher=Bad by Venotar · · Score: 1

    Which authors have been forced into exclusive contracts with Amazon?

    None, the parent's jumping to some understandable, but (to me, at least) unwarranted assumptions: namely that Amazon will become so dominant that they try and lock out any competition. Many company's have certainly gone that route; but Amazon hasn't yet and there are good reasons to doubt they will.

    Currently, Amazon doesn't give a whit whether you publish with anyone else - in fact, Smashwords' whole business model's predicated on that fact. As things currently stands, Amazon's primary ambition seems to become a universal marketplace that shaves a few percentage points off from every transaction and beats it's competition by providing the most flexibility for content providers and third party retailers to sell the way they prefer.

  34. 'The only really necessary people' by unity100 · · Score: 1

    'The only really necessary people in the publishing process now are the writer and reader'

    ............

    shouldnt it have been like that in the first place. and not only in writing sector even ?

    1. Re:'The only really necessary people' by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      'The only really necessary people in the publishing process now are the writer and reader' shouldnt it have been like that in the first place. and not only in writing sector even ?

      Yes, because once a writer finished typing his book, it went by fairy magic straight into the hands of all his potential readers.

      You are a buffoon.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  35. Failure to understand your business model. by blair1q · · Score: 1

    Amazon is a shelf. You put your shit on the shelf and they show it to the public and handles the cash register and the accounting.

    Amazon has zero experience or value to add as a publisher.

    Anyone who's read books published by authors without the benefit of a professional team of editors at a publishing house knows that such books have interesting ideas but read like crappy books, or read well but have crappy ideas, or are just crappy through and through.

    The rise of Amazon as a publisher should be much less scary to publishers than the rise of another actual publishing house.

    Publishers who panic just because authors are moving to Amazon are failing to recognize that in the end they will survive because they add value and Amazon does not, and there will be some segment of the reading public and the writing community who value what they add.

    1. Re:Failure to understand your business model. by Venotar · · Score: 1

      Amazon is a shelf. You put your shit on the shelf and they show it to the public and handles the cash register and the accounting.

      Amazon has zero experience or value to add as a publisher.

      Anyone who's read books published by authors without the benefit of a professional team of editors at a publishing house knows that such books have interesting ideas but read like crappy books, or read well but have crappy ideas, or are just crappy through and through.

      The rise of Amazon as a publisher should be much less scary to publishers than the rise of another actual publishing house.

      Publishers who panic just because authors are moving to Amazon are failing to recognize that in the end they will survive because they add value and Amazon does not, and there will be some segment of the reading public and the writing community who value what they add.

      Amazon isn't a shelf, it's a marketplace: they connect suppliers with consumers. Right now, they're trying to connect authors with readers; but a rational evolution of that marketplace would be to also connect authors with editors, authors with artists, and authors with marketers. The amazon platform for suggesting purchases you might like should be adaptable to suggestion artists that might fit your writing style, editors who fit your genre, etc. Their rating system could be adapted to provide ways to evaluate potential editors and select based on the value proposition that an editor of a particular level of experience and specialization brings to the table.

      If amazon envisions such an evolution and acts on it effectively, publishers have a LOT to be afraid of.

    2. Re:Failure to understand your business model. by blair1q · · Score: 1

      Amazon isn't a marketplace. In a marketplace you may have to rent a stall, but you are responsible for your own marketing and you deal with the customers. Amazon's reseller thing is much less personable than that. They don't even check that the thing in the bin in the warehouse is the thing they display in the box on your screen. And your recourse? "Send it back and we won't send you something else because we don't know if the seller has anything else similar."

      Feh.

      It's a bloody shelf, and one that doesn't mind its pickers dropping dead from the heat.

    3. Re:Failure to understand your business model. by Pi1grim · · Score: 1

      Editors add value, marketing specialists add value, cover designers add value. Not the middlemen who get to keep the copyright and most of the cash. The problem is Amazon is gunning for the popular authors, not trying to actually dig through tons of crap to find good authors in the beginning of their career. But otherwise, if they are giving authors a convenient way to get the books to the reader while giving most of the cash to the author — I'm all for it.

    4. Re:Failure to understand your business model. by zyzko · · Score: 1

      I tend to disagree - maybe my reading habbits are not as high class as yours but I have found a huge collection of scifi in ebooks I like and the price range is from $0 to $10 - yes, sometimes the language is bad and there are basic mistakes such as repetitive language and but structure of sentences. But I don't speak English as my first language so who am I to judge? I get great stories from different authors (and part of them have wrote books about how to self-publish) at a fair price and I really do like them. I don't see how better publishing would add to those stories - yes they are sometimes repeating themselves but isn't the point of reading that your imagination makes up the lack of visuals and your experience maybe very different from mine?

      And to make sure - I'm not a cheapskate - I do pay good money for good books. But at the same time, if you can do a great story for $4,99 a piece without a professional editor, should you not be allowed to do it?

  36. Re:The Question is by suutar · · Score: 1

    Yeah, I saw that and I started wondering who's doing the typesetting? (Last book I bought from Amazon didn't indent paragraphs. It was slightly annoying...)

  37. Thanks by roc97007 · · Score: 1

    I was depressed earlier today, but after reading this article I am less so. Yes, Amazon could become evil, but in the mean time, it's breaking up other evil, (to put it simplistically) and that's a good thing.

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
  38. Ebook pricing by Firethorn · · Score: 1

    Ebook pricing is one of the reasons my ebook catalog hasn't passed my physical books in number of titles I've obtained.

    With ebooks, I get maybe a 10% discount off of the physical MSRP. Thing is, if I get less than a 25% discount off of MSRP at the store for a physical book, I'm not trying. 33-50% off is pretty standard, and that's for a new book, that I can(if I get my pack-rat tendencies under control) sell to a used book store, donate, whatever.

    The reasons I want ebooks includes that I DO have so many physical books that I need the space, that I have a tendency to end up working away from home for months at a time and a nook/kindle/computer can carry a LOT of books for the space it takes.

    --
    I don't read AC A human right
    1. Re:Ebook pricing by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      The reasons I want ebooks includes that I DO have so many physical books that I need the space, that I have a tendency to end up working away from home for months at a time and a nook/kindle/computer can carry a LOT of books for the space it takes.

      This is exactly why I have one. Works wonderfully well for both purposes (travel and reducing accumulation of tons of paper in the house).

      My current policy is to buy it as an eBook if it's available....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
  39. The Business of Writing by gizmo_mathboy · · Score: 1

    Kris Rusch has been specifically writing about the change in the publishing/writing business for about past 6 months or so.

    Very interesting, inspiring and great work.

  40. The American Way of Outsourcing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    (Note: "should" is a tricky word. I like many of the benefits of brick and mortar bookstores, but the real question is whether we are willing to pay the premium to support their business model in order to keep them afloat. If not, then for all that we might moan about it, it's inevitable that they'll die.)

    You do realize you're referring to the same people who buy everything overseas these days and barely produce any physical product.

    And solely because it's cheaper.

  41. Piracy will sort it out by Shoe+Puppet · · Score: 1

    The barrier to entry is so high that company A doesn't need to rely upon customer or author/publisher loyalty, and they don't need to rely upon subsidizing their business model to offer the best deal: they now offer the only deal.

    They still have to compete against paper books and piracy.

    --
    (+1, Disagree)
  42. "Star Wars" analogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maybe the slashdot geek crowd will grok this better using a Star Wars analogy: a good editor/publisher does the same things for even a good, professional writer that Gary Kurtz http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Kurtz did for George Lucas. Lucas with editing/production feedback from Kurtz = Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back. Lucas without editing/production feedback from Kurtz = Return of the Jedi with Ewoks, The Phantom Menace.

    If you like to read books, that thought should give you pause when you contemplate authors abandoning editors and publishers so they can grab for bigger personal compensation.

  43. Are traditional book publishers doomed? by tgibbs · · Score: 1

    The power of traditional publishers inherently derives from their control of the means of production, which itself derives from the large overhead of printing and distribution of physical books. It now seems inevitable that physical distribution will increasingly become a niche form of publishing devoted mostly to things like art books, with conventional publishing being replaced by electronic distribution and (to a lesser extent) print-on-demand. It is unlikely that Amazon would be able to step into the role of the traditional publisher as the gatekeeper to the means of production, because Amazon's strength as a retailer is largely dependent upon its inclusiveness. Locking out authors would only make them vulnerable to competition, and e-retailing is less dependent upon large physical investment (yes, Amazon has server farms, but they are not the only provider, and for similar reasons, it does not pay to deny access to competitors, such as Netflix).

    This implies a fundamental shift in the power relationship between authors and publishers--for example, publishers will have less power to demand subsidiary rights. So instead of the current situation in which authors sort of work for the publisher, we are likely to see evolution of a system in which publishers work for authors--or at least a more equitable relationship than currently prevails.

    With production no longer part of their business, the main services that publishers will be able to offer to writers will be editing and promotion (and in some cases, translation). These are areas where current publishing houses have considerable expertise. Virtually all writers require editing services, of course. Promotion is probably less important to writers who have already established a large following (or those who will never appeal to more than a niche market), but is likely to help those who have the potential to break into large mass-market sales. However, this is an area where e-tailers like Amazon will have an inside track, perhaps by offering promising writers promotion of promising works on their websites and ebook readers in return for an additional cut of the sales. However, there may remain room for independent promotion firms as well. It seems likely that the boundaries between literary agents, publishers, editors, and advertisers will increasingly become fuzzy, with multiple ways of combining these services to appeal to authors.

  44. It won't matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Even if Penguin wins, it will still die. The pittance it can reclaim from this single author will not be enough to keep it afloat as new authors continue to sign with Amazon instead of Penguin.

    Penguin can rage at the dying of the light....but that will only make it run out of breath sooner.

    1. Re:It won't matter by idontgno · · Score: 2

      Penguin can rage at the dying of the light....but that will only make it run out of breath sooner.

      I prefer the poetic image of star systems slipping through Penguin's fingers the more they tighten their grip, but I don't know why.

      --
      Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
    2. Re:It won't matter by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      Even if Penguin wins, it will still die. The pittance it can reclaim from this single author will not be enough to keep it afloat as new authors continue to sign with Amazon instead of Penguin.

      Penguin can rage at the dying of the light....but that will only make it run out of breath sooner.

      The problem is that the value that publishers are adding is not being perceived as worth the money any longer. Now, that may or may not be realistic, especially for new authors: editors do perform a valuable function. But the royalty rates that are traditionally charged are for traditional publishing, which was expensive and time-consuming. Publishing nowadays has an effective cost that's so close to zero as to make no difference. That means that the old-line publisher is pretty much screwed, and if it wants to maintain some relevance is going to have to shift its business model into providing services for authors, and forget about the actual "publishing". Yeah, it won't make much money, but that's what "creative destruction" is all about.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    3. Re:It won't matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well it depends if Penguin has any value if they survive or not.

      If Amazon doesn't perform the full suite of "publisher" functions (advancing money to develop new talent, publicity/promotion, hooking up editors/illustrators/researchers with authors, doing movie adaptations, etc), and they are simply steal the cream (the already established authors that don't need these functions) and discard the whey, Amazon may find that they eventually won't be a large variety of new books to publish anymore. If that turns out to be the case, then all Amazon will have done is reduced the medium of books into the medium of television with hundreds of voices (instead of thousands) them as the meta-publisher/gate keepers which would be a very sad outcome. Instead of the long-tail of voices in print, we will be reduced to the top-1000 best-sellers + vanity press varieties (basically those that can afford to self-publish).

      As the ability to publish will get easier/cheaper, by eliminating the "middle-man", it may kill the goose that laid the golden egg. Of course if you don't believe that Penguin (or any other publishers) add any value what so ever, perhaps no-one will mourn their passing... On the other hand, if Amazon takes over the full-suite publishing functions, they would be a formidable force as they also have a choke-hold on distribution as well. Welcome to our new economy version of Standard-Old...

    4. Re:It won't matter by jason8 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I think it's amusing that Penguin is involved here (although it may as well be any publisher for this particular story).

      When Penguin was founded in the 1930s, they were probably as much of a disruptive force as Amazon is now. Paperbacks were pretty much unheard of. At the time new books -- which meant cloth-bound books -- generally cost about 6 shillings, or say about 20-30 pounds in today's UK money, or 40-60 US$. The first Pengins were sold for 6 pence, or 2-3 pounds, or 4-6 US$. All the original Penguins were reprints, i.e. not new original works but titles licensed from other publishers. The public reaction was positive. The publishing community started with an attitude of amused skepticism, and soon evolved to something like fear, as they watched Penguin cannibalize their sales.

      These days Penguin is still around, having outlived and/or absorbed most of the old British publishing companies. It's interesting to think that they might be confronting an upheaval in the industry similar to the one they caused themselves 80 years ago.

    5. Re:It won't matter by ckaminski · · Score: 1

      Wait, I thought Slashdot had a hard-on for the penguin?

    6. Re:It won't matter by idontgno · · Score: 1

      This year's hungry little rodent becomes next century's dinosaur trying to stamp out next century's hungry little rodents. This Circle of Life is more interesting than anything Elton John ever wrote of.

      --
      Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
  45. PDF, please NO by Anomalyst · · Score: 1

    PDF is not a suitable format for eBooks, as it relies on a predefined format e.g. 8.5x11 that does not fit well paperback or smaller smartphone screens. There's been plenty of discussion on /. regarding the proper format for eBooks, PDF is epic fail, epub or mobi seem to be the top contenders.

    --
    There is no right to feel safe thru security vaudeville at the expense of everyone's freedom, privacy and tax money.
    1. Re:PDF, please NO by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      I only mentioned PDF as an example. Of course multi-format is the way to go.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  46. Editors operating hand to mouth? by Firethorn · · Score: 1

    If the services of publishers becomes otherwise unnecessary, the editors might not have the choice.

    Publishers and editors have long done an important service to written works by doing an appreciable job of seperating out the crud and cruft in selecting which books to publish. Sure, I'm certain that potential masterpieces were sent back, and plenty of crap still got published, but they cleaned out the worst 90% pretty well.

    Still, in the digital communication age, we may need to find other means. There are other models out there where good editors can still make a good steady wage, without working for a publisher.

    --
    I don't read AC A human right
  47. yay idealists. by The+Dawn+Of+Time · · Score: 1

    Yeah except authors like to do things like "eat" and "wear clothes" and "have somewhere to live" and I'm guessing you can't afford to provide that for all of them, so we needed another system while the technology caught up.

  48. That's actually a good example. by tlambert · · Score: 1

    That's actually a good example.

    The reason it's a good example is that the book you refer to has been professionally editted.

    I average a book a day, and have since I was 4 years old. As far as I'm concerned eReaders are cool only because you can hack them to run other software. They are certainly not for reading books. Copyright law exists in exchange for getting rid of book licenses, and here we are, back to books as licensed content.

    I've seen a number of eBooks that were effectively self-published like the Amazon model, and they were very much crap. Duplicated words at the end of a line and the start of the next line, obvious grammatical errors, spelling errors, and in one case, a character name change after chapter 3 that wasn't a plot point, it was just sloppy search and replace.

    I've gone away from eBooks because of crappy editing practices. About the only good eBooks I've seen are all retroactively eBooks, rather than original release as eBook. If it comes from Project Gutenberg, yeah, I'll maybe use it in a eReader, but new books? Almost every one I've ever gotten has been The Suck as far as editing has been concerned. I read a book to read a book, not to come away from the experience wanting to claw my eyes out to retroactively edit the thing.

    -- Terry

  49. Re:Self-publishing=Good; Amazon as a publisher=Bad by bigsexyjoe · · Score: 1

    Well, I jump to the conclusion that a business like Amazon bases it's decisions on amoral profit calculations. If they are the publisher of a book, why should they put they sell the book through other distributors? If an Amazon competitor comes out. I think it's clear that Amazon won't put books it publishes up for sale there. Also, Amazon publishing doesn't really have to operate at a profit, does it? It can exist just for the profit of Amazon the distributor.

  50. yes by unity100 · · Score: 1

    but technology caught up.

  51. Publishers by J'raxis · · Score: 1

    These cartels don't get nearly as much coverage or visibility as the movie studios and record labels, but they're every bit as evil. These entities were pulling the same crap the RI/MPAA types were with "intellectual property" a couple centuries before the *AAs even came into existence.

  52. Re:The Question is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Spot on: the question whether we want Amazon to be the only place to get book is THE question, which is neatly illustrated by this fine piece of Newspeak uttered by the Amazon's top executives mentioned in the summary:

    The only really necessary people in the publishing process now are the writer and reader

    Meaning: The only necessary part of the book publishing process (as demonstrated in the music and the film industries) is distribution and we are now going to take care of that.

    Yes the current quality of modern film and music are something that the book industry has been dying to copy... Get ready for Justin Bieber and Spiderman 17...

  53. Comparisons by zooblethorpe · · Score: 1

    You're comparing apples to tractors here.

    Well, they both come in red, or green. Or occasionally yellow.

    How am I doing?

    --
    "What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
    "A four-foot prune."
  54. Crossing genres by zooblethorpe · · Score: 1

    Might as well confuse romance with small-engine repair.

    Hey now, don't go getting all prejudicial just 'cause some of us get all happy with our spanner sets.

    --
    "What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
    "A four-foot prune."
    1. Re:Crossing genres by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      Might as well confuse romance with small-engine repair.

      Hey now, don't go getting all prejudicial just 'cause some of us get all happy with our spanner sets.

      When your wife finds you knocking up that two-stroke in your lawnmower don't say I didn't warn you. But hey ... there's nothing wrong with that.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  55. Re:The Question is by RocketRabbit · · Score: 1

    Actually block paragraphs have been part of the MLA style since I was in college in the 90s.

  56. SF authors predict the future not very well by epine · · Score: 1

    My comment in that thread was that 90% of the workforce will be unemployed within half a century on present trends. We're heading into a post-commodity winner-take-all employment climate. You'd like to think present trends will change. But how?

    I once read a lot about the publishing industry. There were a lot of people in publishing who really cared about books. They faced an increasingly faced a harsh reality, until only the harsh survived.

    For every Rowling making a billion dollars (she says less) there are thousands of small time authors crowded out of the marketplace.

    Does disintermediation contribute to a long tail wagging happy to see you? Or do we just end up concentrating more wealth among the winner-take-all block busters, while the back-catalog brims with also-rans and failed contenders that never cover the author's outlay?

  57. Just Like Music by glorybe · · Score: 0

    So books are catching up with musical artists who directly sell their works. What a shock. And you can bet Amazon won't be the only one offering a similar service. Some music score books are now published one at a time according to the order payed in advance. No waste, no shop wear and no inventory tax penalties in such a business make it a solid idea.

  58. Publishers are abandoning paper by lsatenstein · · Score: 1

    In reality, ebooks are a boon to publishers. They cut the costs of printing, binding, boxing, shipping, and all the man machine production and distribution expenses.

    If only they can now do what Amazon does, or now that they don't need all that staff, can they live with smaller profit margins?

    --
    Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
  59. Cover art by phorm · · Score: 1

    And while there is definitely some good cover art out there, I have *many* *many* books where the cover is a complete turn-off. What annoys me the most is cover-art where it's pretty obviously the artist never even peeked at the book, and designed characters which have little in common with those in the actual book other than perhaps gender.

  60. Who sets the pricing? by dbc · · Score: 1

    In Amazon's Android market, Amazon sets the pricing. You get a percentage of the price they set, with no recourse. Sometimes, they set the price at zero. There was a story on Slashdot not long ago (too lazy to search for it) where the developers were essentially screwed... on the day Amazon set the price to zero (without warning), they got a huge spike in downloads that crumpled their activation server, a huge load of support incidents, and zero revenue. The developers pulled out of Amazon's Android market -- it cost them too much to be there.

    So if Amazon abuses Android ap authors, what are they going to do with book authors?

  61. Breach of contract by tehcyder · · Score: 1

    So the author signed a contract, extracted a nice advance from Penguin, then broke the terms of her contract and she is complaining that they want their advance back?

    Fuck her.

    --
    To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  62. Publishers still hold some of the important cards by sarbonn · · Score: 1
    As a writer who has tried to go it alone (without a publisher), it didn't take long to realize how much harder it is without a legitimate publisher. I had gone the publishing route before, and because I wasn't a household name already, it was a negative experience. But going alone didn't do much better either because I was still required to do practically everything myself, and without the assistance of a staff of people who know what they're doing, it was a lot more difficult. The ebook route has a lot going for it in the future, but until writers can figure out how to get books into bookstores (or at least seen on searches), we're still held back by the power that publishers have over the ability to be seen and observed.

    Publishing has never been the problem. The problem has always been after publishing, where most writers end up being as unknown as they were before they wrote anything.

    --
    Sarbonn's blog: http://www.sarbonn.com/blog
  63. My publisher is excellent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They are a small independent that care for their authors. I'm a first time author, completely unknown and I received a healthy advance, worked with an excellent editor and proof reader over a period of two months and have been very well supported by my publicist. The book is called Inside the Priory of Sion and we've even manged to get it on Slashdot... : )

    Robert Howells

  64. Really? by sirwired · · Score: 1

    What publishers use this practice? Just looking around online, including many sites advising authors on negotiating contracts (including the Author's Guild), none mention advances having to be repaid. Wikipedia mentioned this was not uncommon in the film industry, but was rather rare in book publishing.

    I believe it is not unheard of for a schock publisher negotiating a multi-book deal to try and push for earnings from hits offsetting advances from flops, but that's a long way from requiring the author to pony up a repayment.

  65. How Publishers work by sglines · · Score: 1

    Back in the early 1990's I wrote a book about how to migrate from mainframes to Unix. I got a good advance and the first printing was for 10,000 copies. I received a statement every month until the royalties owed matched the advance exactly, to the penny. The statement said that they had sold about 7500 copies but they were declaring the book to be out of print. No one could tell me where the extra 2500 copies went or how my royalties could match my advance exactly. All I was told was that I was free to pay for an audit.

    Needless to say I never wrote for them again.

  66. Re:The Question is by Coren22 · · Score: 1

    I wonder who proofreads the e-books, most of the ones I get seem to have the same stupid OCR errors (we'll showing up as weil) it is almost like they just let the computer do it and forget that computers suck at reading...

    --
    APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
  67. Ethics and general safety by zooblethorpe · · Score: 1

    When your wife finds you knocking up that two-stroke in your lawnmower don't say I didn't warn you. But hey ... there's nothing wrong with that.

    ... so long as you've remembered to disengage the blade first, of course.

    --
    "What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
    "A four-foot prune."
  68. just because.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    just because they CAN doesn't mean they will. Computers haven't destroyed our need for paper. just because i shop at walmart doesn't mean i don't still go to the "shop around the corner" it's capitalism, competition is healthy.

  69. Reducing space needed... by Firethorn · · Score: 1

    Oh, I understand the reasons completely. I was just venting that I get pissed that they consider ebooks 'cheaper' when they're a buck or so less than MSRP(~10% today), but you sign up for a B&N card you get 10% off just about everything(matching ebook prices), 40% off things like new hardcovers, and they regularly ship you coupons worth another 25-50% off. None of which are valid on the ebooks.

    I consider a valid ebook price for a book available as a $10 paperback to be $5, not $9.

    Take David Weber's just released 'How Firm a Foundation' - $13 ebook, $16.80 for the hardcover w/membership discount. Okay, a fair deal. But what about 'A Mighty Fortress', the previous book in the series? The paperback and ebook are both priced at $9. But with a discount I can get the pb for $8, assuming I'm not picking it up at a store that offers 'all' paperbacks at 25% off, dropping the price to $6.75.

    I never bought many hardcovers, both due to price and space. But the price, combined with DRM, has driven me to Baen's webscriptions. Isn't it odd that it's the rightwing/libertarian publisher that offers the 'best' ebook pricing today? DRM free ebooks(available in rtf & html even!) that you can read on a computer with no additional software but your web browser? Very good!

    Example: "Voyage across the Stars" by David Drake - $6. It's effectively $3 if I buy it as part of the 'webscription' of 7 $6 ebooks for $18. Buy 3, get 4 free!. Paperback price is $10.29. A 40% discount, even off of paperback price, not penalty for DRM, has me sold.

    --
    I don't read AC A human right
    1. Re:Reducing space needed... by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      I never bought many hardcovers, both due to price and space. But the price, combined with DRM, has driven me to Baen's webscriptions [webscription.net]. Isn't it odd that it's the rightwing/libertarian publisher that offers the 'best' ebook pricing today? DRM free ebooks(available in rtf & html even!) that you can read on a computer with no additional software but your web browser? Very good!

      Wha'ts odd about it? Neither "right wing" nor "libertarian" imply monopoly pricing, rather the reverse.

      That said, Baen is the first place I check for new eBooks. I like DRM-free eBooks. And I don't have a problem with their prices.

      And when I buy a DRM-laden eBook, the first thing I do is crack the DRM so I have an unencumbered ePub.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    2. Re:Reducing space needed... by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      And when I buy a DRM-laden eBook, the first thing I do is crack the DRM so I have an unencumbered ePub.

      It's sometimes painful for me, but I currently have a policy of not getting stuff with excessive DRM(at least not without significant discount) at all, so they're actually losing sales.

      The painful part is that, at this point of my life, I'm not downloading them illegally either.

      What I'll pay $6 for DRM free, you might be able to sell to me for $4 with signficant DRM. Less if the DRM functionally reduces it's usability.

      B&N, Amazon, I suggest you pay attention. I've spent nearly a grand over at Baen due to their policies and pricing. With you guys? I've spent less than $100. There's reasons for this.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
  70. Lolz by ckaminski · · Score: 1

    Wait until Amazon gets in the PoD business for those of us who still like real books. :-)

    I would kill to be able to customize a set of say, LoTR or Harry Potter, instead of taking the publishers mainstream crap.

  71. Re:Publishers still hold some of the important car by Quirkz · · Score: 1

    I've long thought there's opportunity for an intelligent forum and recommendation tool that's either specific to self-published books, or at least places a lot of weight on them while also including traditional books. I think Amazon *can* provide that service, but I think right now their recommendations are weighted heavily if not entirely to the traditionally published works. I would gladly (and probably voraciously) tackle a lot of inexpensive self-published works if I could trust the recommendations I was getting. With self-published books I'd definitely want a recommendation system that took editing and design factors into consideration as well as the quality of the story.

    If something like this exists, I'd love to know about it. If it doesn't, I'd be tempted to start it myself, though there's some serious danger Amazon could eventually catch on and swamp an indie effort long before it could really take off.