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What a Black Box Data Dump Looks Like
An anonymous reader writes "Massachusetts Lt. Governor Tim Murray recently crashed his Ford Crown Victoria while reportedly traveling 108 mph. The car was pretty much shredded, but Murray walked away without major injuries. According to data from the car's black box, Murray and the Crown Vic experienced the equivalent of 40 gravities during the crash. The data contradicts the story he gave police. Maybe we should strap black boxes to all our politicians."
Open source all that info
So, the first thing you should do after a car accident is to find and destroy its black box, so your insurance company would have no way to avoid paying the, what, insurance?
Some luck was involved, but anything that and car that can handle a crash at 108mph ( a bazilion kph for those of you out of the US) is damn amazing. I love engineers. They have made our lives so much better and are so unappreciated.
They usually record less data for maintenance purposes than the kind the insurance companies are clamoring for. These limited datasets have been subpoenaed for auto accidents.
If he was going that fast, he'd be dead. He didn't have a single scratch on him at the press conference. If the tires spin out on black ice, does the black box adjust for that? or would it just assume he's actually moving at the rate the tires are spinning?
Don't you mean 40G (which is short for G-force). A gravity is not a unit of measure.
"... Maybe we should strap black boxes to all our politicians."
Don't be foolish, they would explode from all the weaving, diving, bobbing, feints, corrections, double-backs and plowing through verbal feces (the black boxes, not the politicians.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Maybe we should strap black boxes to all our politicians.
Explosives would be far more beneficial to society in general...
Unbuckled.
Driver's Status: Moron
I think they buried the lead here... 100mph, sans seat-belt, and he walked away? That's goddamn incredible. I've seen first hand what an accident at 170km/h looks like (on the Autobahn) and walking away seems basically impossible.
-- Let us endeavor so to live that when we pass even the undertaker shall be sorry. -- M. Twain
I can see the insurance companies now: "Sorry Mr. Smith, but the speed limit is 60 and you were travelling at 61 so we are denying your claim."
The black box is hard mounted to a solid part of the car. The black box and associated accelerometers stop hard.
A person in a seat, surround by air bags and wearing a seat belt does not stop nearly as hard.
Now if there had been no seat belt and no air bags .....
They usually record less data for maintenance purposes than the kind the insurance companies are clamoring for.
These limited datasets have been subpoenaed for auto accidents.
How do they go about recording? I presume it's a loop in memory, which is only so many hours, or days capacity. My 3 year old car already has 115,000 miles on it. Some tale it could tell.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
The investigation showed Murray was driving 75 miles per hour in the seconds leading up to the crash, which occurred before dawn on a stretch of Interstate 190 in Sterling. But his foot fell harder on the car’s accelerator, increasing his speed to 108 miles per hour as he slid off the roadway and into a rock ledge, flipping twice. His speed was recorded at 92 miles per hour upon impact with the ledge.
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
"... Maybe we should strap black boxes to all our politicians."
Don't be foolish, they would explode from all the weaving, diving, bobbing, feints, corrections, double-backs and plowing through verbal feces (the black boxes, not the politicians.
Exploding politicians would still be nice.
(At least, ones that explode if they do too much weaving, diving, bobbing, feints, corrections, double-backs and plowing through verbal feces.)
"What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
"A four-foot prune."
They will ask Walmart for video footage to identify who bumped into your car and drove away.
At least that's what the insurance told my wife once...
It seems, looking at the raw data, that while "40G's" is quoted by the summary, and words like "totalled" are used, the data recorded by the box only shows a 15MPH crash.
There is other dubious data - for example, the box sensors indicate that the box accelerated by 22MPH while the data was being retrieved - ie. while sitting on some investigators desk - seems unlikley!
The crash acceleration data itself contains some very high amplitude high frequency oscillations - with a frequency around 200Hz. These are much bigger than the crash itself. That could be vibrations going through the car after something goes "twang", but could even be the stereo bass turned up loud. These vibrations are where the "40g" comes from - the actual crash is more like 1 or 2 g.
Note however there may be more information that wasn't recorded.
There's a disclaimer right there on page one:
Accident reconstructionists must be aware of the limitations of the data recorded... should compare the recorded data with the physical evidence...
Those disclaimers do mean things. The data was never intended to be used as a "black box"; That's purely media hyperbole comparing it to what's in an aircraft, which is designed to aid in accident reconstruction. The courts routinely dismiss GPS tracking data on phones used as evidence that the driver wasn't speeding because the device isn't meant to be used for that, and isn't precise enough anyway. An officer's radar gun, however, is.
That said... let us all look to the sky now and return to mumblings about conspiracies between or about the government and/or insurance companies.
#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
They will ask Walmart for video footage to identify who bumped into your car and drove away.
At least that's what the insurance told my wife once...
I need fore and aft GoPro cameras in my car - record my drives. What amazing things I could turn over to the CHP! The people passing on the shoulder, tailgating, yakking on phones. putting on make-up, shaving, picking noses...
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
If he was indeed asleep (as TFA implies), then that could account for his (amazing) lack of injuries. Sort of how like drunk drivers are rarely injured due to their enhanced state of "relaxation."
Yeah, it's hard to measure velocity exactly, but from the article it sounds like the increased tire spin was preceded by increased pressure on the accelerator. So the increased tire revolution rate was probably caused by him going faster, not a spin-out.
Some people have forgotten that driving on public roads is a privilege, not a right.
Accordingly, if you do something stupid, you damn well deserve to be held accountable for it. The "OMG ONOZ THE INSURANCE COMPANIES SEE MY PRIVATE BLACK BOX DATA!!" freakouts shouldn't fly with anyone who has a basic sense of respect for the privilege.
People tend to not survive 40G. So if he walked away "unscathed" then that measurement cannot be taken as equivalently applying to his body.
Strap on to them as they strap on to us!
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
You are the epitome of exactly what is wrong with this country. All polticians lie, and that is perfectly acceptable behavior, eh? I wonder why they continue to lie to us ...
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
Is he named Clark Kent? Guy should have become an astronaut, not a politician.
Those are the people who drove engineering cars to crumple instead of the occupants.
It's cheaper in the long run to pay for a totaled vehicle than long-term medical costs of
the people inside.
From TFA: He was doing 75mph in the seconds leading up to the crash, then accelerated to 108mph. This lead them to believe he probably fell asleep at the wheel. I sympathize, having lived in MA 75mph on the Pike is nothing (people drive far faster). Also having lived in MA I can sympathize with him falling asleep at the wheel. Massachusetts residents often drive while asleep or at least while dozing.
They will ask Walmart for video footage to identify who bumped into your car and drove away.
At least that's what the insurance told my wife once...
I need fore and aft GoPro cameras in my car - record my drives. What amazing things I could turn over to the CHP! The people passing on the shoulder, tailgating, yakking on phones. putting on make-up, shaving, picking noses...
STOP S.T.A.L.K.I.N.G MY WIFE!
It's 2012 (or was 2011 at the time). Who in the world is driving around without a seatbelt on?
The manual for my Corolla says that the blackbox data can only and will only be used by Toyota (to absolve themselves from liability) and isn't readable and won't be released to any other party. Including the owner of the vehicle.
The guy fell asleep. Read the linked article. Then move along. No story here.
When you have a one-party system as Massachusetts does along with a voting public that is only interested national / global issues, you have to expect that the government is loaded with drunken patronage solons. The last three Speakers of the House have been indicted. Even before that the system was corrupted (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Thompson)...
Don't you mean 40G (which is short for G-force). A gravity is not a unit of measure.
Since we are being pedants I think you mean g (little g), not G (big G).
Everything I've read about black-boxes and event-data recorders suggests they're all in a loop.
Airplane black boxes apparently run on a 30 or 60(?) minute loop. What's being recorded now is overwriting what happened 30 mins ago. When an event occurs that stops the recording, there's a snapshot of the time running up to the event. I understand it's a 15-30 second timeframe for automobiles and airbag deployment.
There are driver monitoring systems that work the same way. There are videos on youtube from companies that make products for companies that records driver behavior-they record G-forces, delta-v, directional change, and speed; some can also record throttle and steering angle, etc. as well.
They run on something like a 2 minute loop and if certain thresholds are exceeded, will commit the last two minutes to some form of non-volatile storage and continue recording on a new two minute loop.
I've seen videos and read things that led me to believe that there are some models of police dash cam systems that operate like that. Running on a specific timed loop, but stopping the recycle part of the loop when the lights or siren are turned on.
That box must have been really, really heavy!
Does the black box record that info too?
One of the indications in the log is that the damn fool wasn't wearing his seat belt. That makes him lucky to be alive.
I picked my nose once - I thought they said 'Roses', so I asked for a great big red one...
*Still* negative function...
LOL! Mod parent up:)
but not to Citizens.
"State Police had earlier denied media requests to retrieve the black box data, saying its investigators had more urgent cases and that the cause of Murray’s crash had already been attributed to icy roads."
In this particular case the data should be made public since the it is a taxpayer owner vehicle. Do I need to add a sticker to my BB that reads 'Any retransmission, distribution or account of the data herein, without the express written consent of ME, is prohibited.'
Somehow this reminds me of when Rick Perry was the LT. Governor of Texas and got pulled over for speeding. He did his best to intimidate the DPS officer into letting him "just get on down the road." Man, where are these guys having to always get to in such a hurry?!?
Seth
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
Uhm, if everyone is tailgating and they feel they need to pass you on the shoulder... perhaps you are driving to slow?
Easy way to deal with tailgaters, move to the side and let them pass. If you feel you must drive fast, you can then follow them and let them get the speeding ticket at the next speed trap. You always want a 'rabbit'.
The people passing on the shoulder, tailgating, yakking on phones. putting on make-up, shaving, picking noses...
They should be pointed outside the car!
Does Mass have a seatbelt law? Is the Lt. Gov exempt from such laws? Data shows that during both bag deployments, the driver's seatbelt was unbuckled.
If only they gave a crap or had the desire to do anything about any of it :P
Uhm, if everyone is tailgating and they feel they need to pass you on the shoulder... perhaps you are driving to slow?
Easy way to deal with tailgaters, move to the side and let them pass. If you feel you must drive fast, you can then follow them and let them get the speeding ticket at the next speed trap. You always want a 'rabbit'.
Driving an infuriatingly slow speed appears to be about 5 MPH over the speed limit. Though I must say, I have seen dozens of different drivers who tailgate out of habit. You can generally find them, after a rainfall, standing outside a shattered pile of plastic by the roadside.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
I need fore and aft GoPro cameras in my car - record my drives. What amazing things I could turn over to the CHP! The people passing on the shoulder, tailgating, yakking on phones. putting on make-up, shaving, picking noses...
I want the same. My idea is to at least have a camera on the back of the rearview mirror, facing out the windshield, just recording everything I see like a DVR. Then, I'd hit a button when I see something stupid to have it save the last 30 seconds or so of video. In the DC area, I would have new videos for a website demonstrating aggressive and/or stupid behavior DAILY. And it'd be great evidence if I'm involved in an accident, since, the last time, the other driver lied about what he was doing and it all got blamed on me.
I know i wouldnt be happy if the VIN of my car was posted for the world to see.. you can get keys / key fobs made rather easy to break in and seal things inside or start the car up and go.. nice work everyone for posting this information to the world.
Its unclear when the black box stopped recording. But it had a peak of -16G (smoothed average) and it increase almost linearly for 70ms. .070 * 32 * 16 /2 and you have a total velocity change of 17.92 ft/sec or 12 mph.
So 1G = 32 ft/sec^2. So its a triangle with the area (1/2bh):
I see nothing on this plot that would indicate that the car was traveling at any higher speed. Did I miss it?
Note at the beginning of the document it says something like 24mph - which is probably a better estimate than me assuming its a triangle and it take into account all the data, not just the uptick at the end.
Still, no where near 105mph.
TODO: create/find/steal funny sig.
Its a well known fact our politicians speed. Its happened here in PA and NJ. I don't care, but if they have to go over 70 miles an hour to get to a meeting then they should be flying not driving. If they kill someone they have to go to jail. Its just that simple
Jack of all trades,master of none
I have fore and aft cameras on my vehicle that record when driving. It is fairly easy to setup. A mini camera mounted above the rear-view mirror. Another at the top of the back windshield. I replaced the stock lens on each with wide-angle to get a broader view but it is not as fun to watch the fish-eye results. The feeds are recorded on a vanilla 100 USD 4-channel home security camera system mounted in the trunk. Replaced the hard drive with an SSD and slightly modified to run off DC only. Spent about 225 USD on the entire system.
Nothing much to get excited about that has been recorded. Bad drivers, people running red lights, etc. Just waiting for the day to catch something awesome.
Should have read the fine report :) The retained data is a rather short freeze-frame data that includes a couple hundred data points at most. It's there mostly for the manufacturer of the restraint system controller to be able to cover their asses in case the customer, say, claims that the airbags deployed for no reason. It's not designed to be a real crash recorder. For those, you'd want decent inertial reference (6 DOF), audio recording, survivable memory module, etc.
A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
If it wasn't for the insurance problems I would probably replace the wing mirrors with camera and in-car monitors too. The field of view is better, with no blind spot, the distortion is less. Perhaps some brave manufacturer will try it, possibly with emergency fold-out mirrors in case the camera fails.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
Get a reversing camera. You will thank me the first time you don't drive over something below the rear sill.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
Since the police normally ignore drivers who behave safely who are doing a real 80 on motorways, an indicated 85 is within what they will accept.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
The last set of statistics I saw said that the weighted average of fuel consumption for the European car fleet was just over half that of the US, and the average for Japan lower still. Therefore, our actual fuel costs are on average pretty close to those of the US.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
You can get a good black-box dash cam at GPSskytracker .com. Check it out.
Sure, seatbelts and airbags save car drivers -- which is why I am against them.
As a pedestrian, cyclist and motorcyclist, I think that ANYTHING that increases car driver confidence is... bad.
Get rid of seatbelts. Get rid of airbags. Put broken glass into the dashboard.
That should act to straighten out a lot of car drivers!
And, who knows? Maybe the additional care will balance out the removal of protection; hey, we may even have a reduction of fatalities.
Smear a bit of blood on the glass in the factory, just to be sure to get the point across.
Just another "Cubible(sic) Joe" 2 17 3061
Its a recording of the few seconds before and during an event impact. Seconds, not hours or days.
Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
Then stop driving in the left lane!!! Geez nothing is more infuriating than people with no highway courtesy.
Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
I once drove from Orly (near Paris) to Amsterdam in 3:30. That averages about 160 kph (100 mph). This was before the speed camera era, in a Ford Escort rental. I actually drove about 180...190 to the French border, about 500 m behind a Jaguar doing the same; I thought that car could be the cop bait :-)
A friend of mine had a Saab 900 turbo and used to drive Amsterdam Paris in 3 hours pretty much every weekend, that's pretty much the same average.
Read the whole report very slowly, line by line.
The "Black box" can record:
Over time:
Throttle position
Brake pedal switch closure
G forces in four directions for a few seconds to a couple MINUTES before the event
Airbag deployment events, deployment level events (airbags would have been triggered, but car could not provide another airbag response) and "non-deployment events" in which forces exceed certain parameters.
Sometimes a "rollover" sensor
Speed based on transmission or wheel speed
At beginning of report:
Engine start cycles at time of event
Engine start cycles at time of download
Driver, passenger and other seatbelt switch states
Just make sure you don't include any footage of police officers doing those things, otherwise you're likely to be slapped with a "wiretapping" charge.
I drank and crashed my car. I had to pay over $5K and spend days in jail and had my license suspended. I'm pretty angry right now. Mine was a first time offense, I didn't hurt anyone. I took a corner to fast and hit a pole. That's it. I didn't pass out. The damage was minor. The system tried to ruin me. No one cut me any slack. He only has to pay $550? Screw it!
Except it is illegal to give a recording to the police unless they ask for it. Well in Georgia it is.
Nathan
I was in a wreck and I begged the two insurance companies involved (there were multiple vehicles but the question of fault came down to a he-said-she-said between just two of the drivers) to pull the black boxes to veryify my account of how it happened.
Everyone who interviewed me, from the police on the scene to four different interviews from investigators from two different insurance companies said that my account of the accident was completely different from everybody else. The last two investigators who talked to me took recorded statements and, after the interviews were finished, said that my story was the only one that actually made sense in light of all the physical evidence but that it was *so* different from everybody else that there had been a tendency to discount it.
My story blamed the accident, basically, on the utterly insane driving of one of the cars involved. If speed and throttle position for the 15 seconds prior to impact were recorded, it would completely back me up.
*Everybody*, however, completely dismissed the notion of looking at the recorder data. They *all* said that those things were examined *only* in the case of a fatality.
I thought that was stupid. I'm glad to see it's changed.
Since the black box showed his seatbelt was unbuckled and his speed (before falling asleep) was 10 mph over the limit, but he told the police that his seatbelt was buckled and he wasn't speeding, he should be subject to prosecution for obstruction of justice. Or does the law apply only to little people in Massachusetts?
Someone with that much power should be held to a higher standard of accountability.
SURELY NOT!!!!!
That happens in every lane, not just the left lane.
-- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
I am looking for a setup such as this. Do you have more information on the specific parts and mountings that you used? Perhaps I could.. subscribe to your newsletter?
I welcome our new 99% overlords.
Wiretapping requires the video feed to have audio.
We should put them in all cars.
Previously, vehicles weren't designed to do this, and so the weakest area was the cabin.
Correction: The weakest area was not the cabin. The weakest area was the people sitting in the cabin. When those people impacted on the much stronger cabin walls, the injuries were often quite severe.
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
We can and should be recording every moment of every day of every public official from their oath to departing office--fore their own protection, and to reduce investigation costs--public officials have no expectation of privacy, and what better proof of innocence could there be? We owe it to them to protect them in return far all that protection they provide us..... It's even CHEAP! (Leaving all sorts of profits for the companies that land the contracts.)
http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2603836&cid=38588550
You suggested thinking about individual cases rather than parroting a comfortable, one-size-fits-all catechism.
Some people feel physically violated whenever it's suggested that they use their own meat brains. It's much more comfortable for them to use their guru/preacher/textbook/politicalparty/holybook's dogma, and avoid anything that might smack of independent philosophy.
They lash out at anyone who threatens their happy place.
Another at the top of the back windshield.
If the rear window on your car is a WINDshield, you are driving in a very odd manner.
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?