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Man Who Downloaded Bomb Recipes Jailed For 2 Years
chrb writes "Asim Kauser, a 25-year-old British man, has been jailed for two years and three months for downloading recipes on how to make bombs and the toxin ricin. Police discovered the materials on a USB stick Asim's father gave to them following a burglary at the Kauser family home. Asim pled guilty and claimed that he only downloaded the materials because he was curious. A North West Counter-Terrorism Unit spokesman said, 'I also want to stress that this case is not about policing people's freedom to browse the Internet. The materials that were downloaded were not stumbled upon by chance — these had to be searched for and contained very dangerous information that could have led to an explosive device being built.'"
Title should read, "Man arrested for possibly planning to become a terrorist". But still, arrested for criminal possibility.
His potential crime would have been a physical one. It needed bomb ingredients, guns, etc... He had none of the equipment, just the knowledge.
Everything about his crime is just conjecture. How do you prove that he WOULD have done anything. Were there dates of action?
I guess what it boils down to, if you're gonna have "evil" thoughts, don't write them down.
Pre-crime, here to protect you from yourself.
I'm feeling less special every day. I used to think I was a paranoid outsider. Nope, just observant.
Why do the countries witht the highest Press Freedom Index have to be so damned cold.
Update: Looks like Cape Verde has risen in the rankings... Hrmm...Might be worth the change of address.
"Helping to keep you two steps ahead of the Thought Police!"
Should have claimed someone left the USB stick.
So I got this copy of the "Anarchist Cookbook", is this terrorism?
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
The Thought Policy know what you're thinking!
-- By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out.
Dangerous to the state, that is. Oh well, gotta remember that the UK has no real free speech rights codified into law.. for what that's worth..
For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
England is officially a police state now.
I am guessing the people who brought him up on charges have never actually read a science textbook. Sure its a little winded and takes a while to get to it, but by reading the average science textbook from jr high and above you can figure out how to create some pretty dangerous chemical reactions that should scale fairly well. Knowing about something and being jailed for it it thought crime. Trying to set limits on the human condition of curiosity and interest could pave the path of a dangerous road.
They ALSO uncovered letters where he stated he was prepared for jihad and was seeking guidance, plus he'd gone so far as to spec and price out his weaponry.
He wasn't just some curious chemist who happened to have an arabic-sounding name.
So apparently this guy is being jailed for reading the wrong things and thinking the wrong thoughts. Fuck the UK.
Prosecuting someone for a device that "could have been built" (if only the suspect had things like a motive, and the materials) is like slapping me with a paternity suit for all the girls I "could have got pregnant" (if only they would have sex with me).
Let's face it: this guy's crime was not downloading information on bombs and ricin. His crime was downloading said materials while having a Middle Eastern name.
[Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
Richard Hammond and Jon Tickle made me into a terrorist when they showed me how to make Thermite! Go arrest them!
Uh, oh, I am really worried about myself. Not only can I think of many ways I could construct explosive or incendiary devices, I can think of OVER 100 WAYS TO KILL someone! And there are quite a few people I don't really like! Many of them are sitting in the parliament (note: I am Greek) so they have connections to the police!
I am surely a prime suspect for potential terrorism, murder, political assassination and I don't know what else!
Oh, shit! I just realized I know where the VAGINA is! Potential for RAPE right there!!!
Where do I hide guys???
Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Polar Scope Align for iOS
FTFA: A further examination of the stick revealed a letter, addressed to an unknown recipient, in which the author - again anonymous but referring to himself as a 24-year-old man - seeks spiritual guidance and says he has prepared himself physically and financially for jihad.
Which is reason to observe him, not to jail him.
Are they terrorist too? Actually, they are even worse because they don't download the receipts, but they MAKE them. Nasty, little, geeky terrorist. Put them behind the bar. FOR LIVE.
If you want to become a bomb disposal expert, trial and error is a poor way to learn.
Minority Report, anyone?
The discovery of the information in his possession was accidental, but caused a greater investigation. It appears he pleaded guilty to the charge, suggesting a serious problem with establishing reasonable doubt.
In addition, one should not trust too heavily in the accuracy and completeness of a regional newspaper article. Hell, any newspaper for that matter. ...unless the man went into court without a lawyer, and had his arse handed to him by the prosecution. That can happen too.
Eventually people will be arrested for downloading how to jailbreak their phones, how to remove DRM, and how to bypass region locked DVDs.
It's called curiosity. Your same thought would lead you to question why Urg should bother with that fire, since it's clearly dangerous.
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
It is a valid question, but one that has many correct answers...
What I mean is that you can't legislate human curiosity, and there's no need for other reason.
If something is "hidden" or "taboo", I along with many others will be interested. And as long as you don't commit a crime (as in buying bomb-making STUFF, not INFO) it's my freaking right... well, at least in my country.
Off course, that's MY answer...
-- Counting backwards since 1984!
Well, as a novelist, knowing how to make bombs could be very important for a book. Or maybe you're just curious. Or maybe you're wondering how bombs work. Or you could have a school report. Or maybe you're interested in fireworks and rocket ships (which are, essentially, bombs) or controlled demolition. Maybe you think the apocalypse is coming and you want to be prepared to fight the zombies with bombs made out of stuff you found in the ransacked supermarket.
Does it matter? I know how to make bombs (go high school physics!) but it's not like I'm going to bomb city hall. I know how to snort coke (and so do you! Everyone knows how to snort coke) should I be arrested for future snorting of coke just because I know how?
I'm a psychologist (amongst other things).
Knowledge is power. Say I have some strange men move in next door. I notice they are receiving deliveries of fertilizer, barrels fuel, and related items. I guess this could be farming equipment, but since I living in the suburbs maybe they are building a bomb. Good think I read an article about the Oklahoma city incident online. Also, consider the case where I notice that the snow is melting off someone's roof. Maybe they love running their heat on full blast during the winter...or maybe they are growing marijuana. I know this because I read online. Last, lets say I notice a foul smell coming from the neighbor's house. I mean, a terrible smell, like a cat pissed everywhere. If I had a child who love to play in the yard, I'd be happy to know that maybe my neighbors have a meth lab brewing next door. I'd be happy to know I read online that the fumes are not only toxic and deadly to children. Get the point? Knowledge is power.
my mom posts on slashdot.
With the exception of early childhood with a few playground scuffles, I have never cause any physical harm to anyone, and do not have the desire to ever cause harm in the future.
However, as a geek and a white-hat hacker, I am very curious about technology, science (including chemistry), math (including cryptography), etc. So, yes, even I would be interested in reading about explosives and bomb making, along with my other technical curiosities, if only to be more informed and aware of the risks, even though I would never attempt to get the materials, build anything, or use it in any way.
But having technical info is illegal, even without any proof that that that man planned to misused it? Wow, I am shocked how much democracy we have lost in the last few years. At what point should we start causing our nations fascist states:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism
IANAL. Conspiracy to commit a felony can be punished pretty severely as is evidenced by this situation. Some people will argue that this tramples rights because you cannot even read something without risk of going to jail. The flip side is how do you arrest someone that is planning on blowing up a building without this law? Do you wait until they blow up the building so you can actually arrest them? What about someone planning to kill someone or rape someone? Do you wait until they commit the crime to arrest them or arrest them when you have enough evidence that they are planning to commit the crime? What if someone was planning to kill you or blow you up? Wouldn't you want them arrested BEFORE they killed you?
Have you ever read any science book? Not science fiction, but true science books? maths? Physics? Chemistry? Hydrodynamics?
Ah, and one advise, don't read all these stories about "The Big Bang" theory...heeeey, guys, wait a second, NOoooooooo,arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.....
Observe him doing what? Killing people?
Damn! I knew that was gonna happen!
Saying your going to kill someone is a crime.
Saying your going to kill someone and possessing a written plan to carry it out is a more serious crime
- Besides, being stupid in the commission of a crime, should carry an additional penalty.
The materials that were downloaded were not stumbled upon by chance — these had to be searched for and contained very dangerous information that could have led to an explosive device being built.'"
Materials downloaded, very funny.
I'm no expert, but i'd imagine any fool with the ability to fearlessly navigate to www.google.com
also would possess the ability to type in what they want, and strap in, as they prepare for to click
many a right arrow.
All non fools know where to go for bad things, like the neighborhoods most avoid,
it's always there despite policing.
It's like people just started realizing we're in the information age.
Interesting that later in the article we find the following quote from Detective Chief Superintendent Tony Porter: "This case has never been about proving an endgame and we may never know what his intentions were". So they admit to not knowing his intentions, how can they in good conscience say they are arresting him for intent?
They did not find any prove that he was going to kill people.
They did not find any plan how to kill people.
But the still put him behind the bar....
The difference is the people in your illustration actually bought the materials and started doing things.
This guy just read about it and hadn't acted at all.
He certainly sounds like he needs to be watched, but finding him guilty of anything and putting him in prison is an outrage.
Where, exactly?
Why, the U.S. government, of course.
Military manuals, like most other government publications, are by law public property here in the U.S.
And you probably won't find better instructions on making homemade or impromptu explosives, than U.S. military manuals. I mean some really nasty, horrific sh*t. They are freely available on the market, and must be kept public, by law.
Please explain to me how you could justify arresting, much less convicting, someone for possessing information distributed by our own government that is, by law, public information. I don't think you could.
I firmly believe that the best way to protect yourself from ANY kind of weapon is to know about said weapon. How it is built and how it works. Therefore, trying to censor such information is a crime against society.
A lot, depending on jurisdiction. If you're in an urban area, there's probably noise restrictions, and explosions are likely too loud. Most cities have broad prohibition on all things explosive in significant quantities, with the intent being that nobody can stockpile enough to blow up anything important. Certain chemicals used to make explosives or that are byproducts of the explosion itself are also highly toxic, so releasing them in your backyard may be a serious health risk for your neighbors.
That said, there are folks who jump through the necessary hoops to set up gatherings at appropriate jurisdictions, but I won't be mentioning any names on Slashdot. If you're interested, try contacting your local police and asking them. Get to know them personally (in a non-stalking kind of way), build a good reputation for being responsible, and see what information they can give you, like perhaps a local chemist with a nice field outside town...
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
For instance, I know how to produce crystal meth. Have I ever done it? No. Will I ever do it? Not unless there is a very very damned good reason to.
Why is that? Part of gaining dangerous knowledge is also gaining knowledge of everything that can go wrong. That is to say, gaining dangerous knowledge goes hand in hand with gaining the knowledge of why you shouldn't use it.
Take for instance, nuclear bombs. Anyone who knows how these work and what they do knows exactly why you should never, ever build one, or if you must build one, why you should look for every possible way to avoid deployment.
Its why epidemiolgists know better than to create superbugs, and if they absolutely must, why absurdly strong biocontainment is necessary.
The police's line of "this is very specialist knowledge that had to be purposefully sought out, and could put people in danger." Is absolute madness. Perhaps he looked it up because he feared somebody planting one? (Maybe he's a catholic and considered visiting a protestant irish community on holiday, and wanted to be able to identify a pipe or carbomb in ase he was unlucky enough to get stuck with one?) Perhaps he was interested in becoming a licensed pyrotechnician?
"Dangerous information puts the public at risk" translates into just about *every* specialist field. Anatomy? Check! Somebody COULD use that information to become a more efficient serial killer. Medicine? Check! Somebody could use it to devise new narcotics! IT? Check! Somebody could use it to disrupt all those fucking CCD cameras all over england.
Apparently, the fact that I know that you can harvest reasonably high quality platinum catayst from a defunct catayltic converter from a scrap yard, and use it to create nitric acid for creating IEDs from dryer lint and stale urine means I should be arrested.
Clearly I pose a threat to the crown somehow.
Heaven forbid that I spend a few hours reading, or worse!, maintaining some wikipedia articles!
Knowledge is only dangerous to the stupid, who increase their vulnerability through embracing ignorance as a means of safety. (If no one knows about nuclear physics, we don't have to worry about nuclear bombs. Nevermind all the obviously beneficial applications of that knowledge. We want to feel safe, so we ban the knowledge itself. What's that? Somebody born 2 generations later dumped a bunch of pitchblende near a reservoir, and now the city is drinking uranium salt in the drinking water? Well, we don't know any better now, because we banned knowledge of nuclear physics. So we could be safe.)
I hope the brittish people fucking riot over this.
Conspiracy with 1 person defies logic. The legal system is a joke. At least they found a half ass excuse with Don King by saying his 1 man corporation was another person besides himself the 1 man employee of that corporation (this was just part of the lead up to corporate person-hood.)
This DOES mean that reading becomes a thought crime. It starts out with simple clear things like reading directions on bomb making then it moves to whatever they can get a jury to believe your intent might have been with the knowledge you were seeking (or passively just reading or collecting, in court they may leave out that you may have just been getting torrents loaded with various books.)
YES we must wait until a crime is actually being committed. Future crime is the work of science fiction movies. No, this does not rule out somebody found actually making a bomb with proof of a motive (like plans) or who has struck before.
YES, we all die someday but at least we die as a free person and not as a authoritarian coward!
We have nothing to fear but fear itself.
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Findlaw's Definition of Conspiracy to Commit
"A criminal conspiracy exists when two or more people agree to commit almost any unlawful act, then take some action toward its completion. The action taken need not itself be a crime, but it must indicate that those involved in the conspiracy knew of the plan and intended to break the law. One person may be charged with and convicted of both conspiracy and the underlying crime based on the same circumstances.
For example, Andy, Dan, and Alice plan a bank robbery. They 1) visit the bank first to assess security, 2) pool their money and buy a gun together, and 3) write a demand letter. All three can be charged with conspiracy to commit robbery, regardless of whether the robbery itself is actually attempted or completed."
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
Everyone here has said he should not have been charged.
What are some suggestions what the police should have done instead? Just ignoring the data on the stick and declaring "case closed" is probably not the best plan. What would have been a better level of response from the police to finding this information?
This is such a breach of freedom and privacy, no crime was committed. I am reminded of the pre-crimes in Minority Report. I'll stop complaining if I get one of those crt screen walls. But seriously, this is the foot in the door of a fascist type state control of peoples lives.
Next, banning books especially the Koran
According to TFA, the man wasn't convicted just for downloading bomb and toxin recipes. There was also a letter where he said he had prepared himself for Jihad, and a shopping list with prices on items such as AK-47s, grenade launchers, ammunition and so on.
Of course, that's the prosecution's version, so it may still be biased, but one shouldn't pretend he was convicted just for downloading information off the Internet.
Prepared for jihad. That's your argument.
If I wrote a letter that said I am prepared financially and spiritually for violence and had a shopping list containing weapons. Should I be arrested?
If I have a erection and tell a friend, "Man, I'd really like to rape that chick." Should I be arrested?
The question isn't whether terrorism should be illegal, it's whether unclear and unsubstantiated intent is illegal. Were the plans for when and where he would strike?
No, just a letter saying he was ready if called.
As much as I detest violence and (insert all bad things here), I vehemently oppose others controlling what I'm allowed to think.
"Helping to keep you two steps ahead of the Thought Police!"
You should probably read the article, rather than the cherry-picked, out-of-context summary.
It is illegial in the UK to have the information:
Terrorism act 2000 sec 58
(2)In this section “record” includes a photographic or electronic record.
(3)It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had a reasonable excuse for his action or possession.
(4)A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable—
(a)on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years, to a fine or to both, or
(b)on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months, to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or to both.
His defence would have to be a "reasonable excuse" to why he had the info. I'm not sure if "I'm interested in chemistry" or" I'm studying IEDs out of curiosity since your troops are dying from them" would be considered reasonable. Especially when you have a letter (albieit) anonymous saying you want advice on fighting a jihad.
P.S. I also love how a lot of jihadists live in the west, study there and then act all pissed off with the western lifestyle. Funny it was good enough for you to live, you went there for school because yours are crap but "everything the west does is evil".
"This case has never been about proving an endgame and we may never know what his intentions were, but when you have significant evidence of how to make explosive devices and pricing lists for weapons, we had to act quickly." Ok...I am all about stopping terrorism and providing for safety from things the average person isn't prepared to deal with HOWEVER...this is just ridiculous...they even basically say We have no case, don't know what he wanted to do BUT...throw him in prison! Where in the hell have the liberties gone from the once free countries around the world? Oh that's right, they don't exist anymore
Seriously. Why would you need or want these instructions? why should bomb construction techniques even be available on the web in the first place. Not trolling and not flame bait, someone please enlighten me.
You might also happen one day to find yourself in the middle of a war (as in, 'never say "never"'). In that case, some knowledge of pyrotechnics, weapons and stuff could save your life.
Ezekiel 23:20
For the same reason that everyone should know what happens when you mix bleach and ammonia: Women in Walmart throw bleach and ammonia at each other. Or that you shouldn't throw certain chemicals in a bowl of water...
Or maybe you have some groundhogs out back you are trying to get rid of? I watched a very interesting piece on the discovery channel where farmers rigged an entire tree line with explosives and blew it up in an effort to kill a flock of birds that were threatening the crops. There are many perfectly valid and legal reasons I would want to blow something up.
But the GP read about those things. That's the point. GP was pointing out that such knowledge is neutral, and mostly beneficial, because most people have beneficent motives. Whereas this guy (Asim) appears to have kept notes about his own nefarious motives.
Everything in this world is dangerous. Once you give the government the power to censor dangerous information, they'll use that to censor whatever they want under the pretense of keeping you safe. In particular, information coming from opposition parties will be deemed dangerous to the government, stifling political progress, and allowing criminals in government to hide their crimes. This leads to a net decrease in safety across society.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
"A North West Counter-Terrorism Unit spokesman said, 'I also want to stress that this case is not about policing people's freedom to browse the Internet."
Bullshit, if this were the case he wouldn't be in jail now would he..
"I bow to no man" - Riddick
Maybe read the article?
Possessing this information is not illegal.
Planning a terrorist attack, shopping for guns and ammo, writing down your intentions to go on "jihad" and then admitting to the police that you intend to do so... well, that will get you in a spot of bother.
So what if his spirtial guidance turned out to be 'don't do it man'! ... you shouldn't punish people for being tempted, because EVERYONE is tempted to do what is wrong from time to time. It is only when they actually DO it that they have DONE something illegal.
Sorry , but the though police should have no place in the modern world, but Europe has never fully had the same ideas as america on that.
Our constitution was designed to allow for citizens to actually talk about plan and attempt to carry out a rebellion if the government every stopped listening too them, by people who had just recently done exactly that.
So, you are not supposed to be able to arrest people for 'treason speech' or 'intent' in this country ( the kings of Europe routinely did such things.) They expected oaths of loyalty and anyone who wouldn't take them could be punished etc. etc.
âoeTolerance applies only to persons, but never to truth. Intolerance applies only to truth, but never to persons.
What would happen if I downloaded all the material I could find on bank heists from the early 1900's? What if I researched how people broke into banks, what methods they used, how they confused guards/tellers? What if I looked into getaway routes, vehicles used, people who were working from the inside, how they laundered or spent their money? What if I compiled the information for the most common time of day to rob a bank, and found the best countries/states/cities to do it in? Would I be just as guilty, even though I never committed a crime?
'I also want to stress that this case is not about policing people's freedom to browse the Internet. The materials that were downloaded were not stumbled upon by chance â" these had to be searched for and contained very dangerous information that could have led to an explosive device being built.
Great, so you can't get arrested for browsing the internet, only for searching the internet.
sic transit gloria mundi
Okay, those of us who know how to build explosives will leave you to your zombie-infested future.
---
ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
I once worked with a co worker who said his fantasy is to have sex with a unconcious woman... He looked like a person who would follow through.... The guy creeped me out.
I remember when I was in high school, in my grade-12 chemistry class, the subject had come up about nuclear weapons, and I remember being in the camp of people in our classroom who felt that such things would be exceptionally difficult to build... well outside the capabilities of the average person. The teacher contradicted this view, and right at the beginning of our next class the following day, he handed out some instructions that explained exactly how to build an atomic bomb. The entire instructions fit on less than 4 pages, and I remember being shocked at reading it, incredulous that it could have been so simple. The only really difficult part, from what I recall, would have been trying to find a source of plutonium.
Knowledge should *NEVER* be illegal. Neither should curiosity. Only what you do with it.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
The police arrested him based on the possession of this information -- I have no problem with this. They were no more out of line than arresting a murder suspect.
A court then sentenced him based on all available evidence (including the letter making it pretty clear he intended to make use of the information).
It is true that the police did not know he was going to use the information for evil -- the court decided that it was an unacceptable risk.
All of the people saying "they weren't proving an endgame" are absolutely rightabout the police Those quotes are from a detective, not a judge.
Wot, no links for downloading bomb recipes? Pity, We'd have slashdotted them.
Read your own post -- the detective said that. Detectives don't sentence people to jail terms, they just arrest people who are suspected to be a danger to society.
The court on the other hand, decided that he was going to use the information to build a bomb and that is why he's in jail.
Well if they had more than what I first read then that would be different. Maybe I will go one day to the UK after all.
An interesting new crime. I hope the US doesn't adopt that one.
...were floating around in any Jr. High when I went to school. Most of my colleagues remember it as well. Yet there is no flood of terrierists out there...
It is ironic that you can be required to know the process in high school chemistry class to precipitate something, yet be jailed for knowing the same approach can can be used to concentrate ricin. I suppose now the Wiki pages for aspirin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirin) will now make every high school aged chemist a terrierist. The information required is so basic, it merely points out the complete ignorance and gullibility of the prosecution.
Does reading a reading a detailed description of a dirty nuke device make one *more* of a threat to anyone than a bolt of lightning, or eating hot wings for lunch?
There are people you pass in the street every day who know exactly how to reach over and snap your neck, or who have contemplated rape fantasies with your wife, or are evaluating whether to steal your wallet, or a million other horrors that reside in the minds of others.
Those things have been there, every day of your life; the sum total of those risks is far smaller than crossing a street, driving a car, or cutting vegetables in the kitchen for dinner. Yet a person who reads about ricin or bombs is prosecuted by some career flunkies promoted on the basis of their theatrical tendencies for alarm. Apparently, democracy, intellectual freedom, and western civilization are too powerless in the face of these trifled threats to be allowed to exist...so they want to inflict something entirely different in its place.
I don't care if he had written a thousand verses on Jihad or Holy Crusades or a Columbine redux. It is truly the end of the line when there are vague classes of publicly available speech that are now prohibited to view. This is a direct assault by self-righteous, malevolently ignorant squabs on a normal world they cannot seem to come to grips with.
But the letters to the other religious dude about jihad puts a slightly different spin on things, however.
This sick illogical reasoning has been the basis for more than just future possible violent crimes. Other thought crimes continue to have popularity in our so-called modern civilized times: Gay crimes, because promoting gay anything or just being actively gay is a thought crime against society that will unravel all morals and make straight marriage fall apart!
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very dangerous information that could have led to an explosive device being built
My god, I had no idea that pure information could spontaneously assemble itself into an explosive device!
I wonder how much the search requests for those items spiked due to the Streisand Effect. I've seen lots of info on explosives without searching including Mythbusters making black powder and Dirty Jobs issue on Fireworks Technician. I don't know much about the poison. If I searched it, that would only be due to the Streisand Effect. I would not want to have an accident in an attempt to make that stuff.
The truth shall set you free!
That's what the UK police claimed right? Does the guy admit he created that letter? If he doesn't I'd give him the benefit of doubt unless there is any other evidence.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jean_Charles_de_Menezes#Disputed_facts_and_events
I'm personally more concerned about corrupt/bad cops than I am of terrorists. They have a far higher chance of ruining my life.
Schools are already requiring people to take 'diversity classes' to teach them not to think 'hateful thought' or have 'hateful speech' towards people.
âoeTolerance applies only to persons, but never to truth. Intolerance applies only to truth, but never to persons.
"The thought police would get him just the same. He had committed--would have committed, even if he had never set pen to paper--the essential crime that contained all others in itself. Thoughtcrime, they called it. Thoughtcrime was not a thing that could be concealed forever. You might dodge successfully for a while, even for years, but sooner or later they were bound to get you." - George Orwell, 1984, Book 1, Chapter 1
Wow. Just wow.
That's depressing.
"Helping to keep you two steps ahead of the Thought Police!"
Prepared for jihad. That's your argument.
It demonstrates intent.
If I wrote a letter that said I am prepared financially and spiritually for violence and had a shopping list containing weapons. Should I be arrested?
If the violence was of a terrorist nature, and you also had information or materials that would help you to do thise things, then under British law, yes.
If I have a erection and tell a friend, "Man, I'd really like to rape that chick." Should I be arrested?
That's not terrorism, so certainly not under the same law, no. There may be some other law you break though.
The question isn't whether terrorism should be illegal, it's whether unclear and unsubstantiated intent is illegal. Were the plans for when and where he would strike?
No, just a letter saying he was ready if called.
The text of the letter wasn't in the article so we don't know that. But the suggestion is he was seeking spiritual guidance,and was planning an attack himself, not offering to join someone else's plot.
As much as I detest violence and (insert all bad things here), I vehemently oppose others controlling what I'm allowed to think.
There's a difference between thinking something should be opposed and planning a terrorist attack on it. I defend your right to think. I don't defend your right to plan a terrorist attack. If it stays in your head it's still in the realm of fantasy. By the time you've downloaded plans for explosives, ricin, price lists for military weapons, and sent messages to people telling them you are prepared, it's safest to assume you're way past the fantasy stage.
Leave it to organised religion to dial the stupid up to 11.
What if the police had found the information, done nothing (it is only information) and a year he blew up a building and then gunned down the first responders? How many of you "He shouldn't go to jail just for information" people would be calling the police incompetant for not doing anything? And no, the police to not have the resources to keep watch on suspects for long periods of time.
Most likely one of those honor jailings, just like the honor killings parents do in Canada cause their kids become westernized.
Information just wants to be free - it doesn't belong to anyone, no matter whose USB stick it is on.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
In the UK merely thinking about terrorism is a crime. Of course they can't read your mind so there has to be some evidence such as writings or internet searches, but showing any semi-serious interest in Islamic terrorism is actually against the law. It is also illegal not to report people you suspect of being terrorists.
People actually go to prison for thought crime here.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
So what if his spirtial guidance turned out to be 'don't do it man'! ... you shouldn't punish people for being tempted, because EVERYONE is tempted to do what is wrong from time to time. It is only when they actually DO it that they have DONE something illegal.
What he'd already done is illegal in the UK. Temptation is in the head. By the time you've collected hard o find information and declared in a letter to someone you're prepared for it, you should be assumed to be well beyond the temptation phase.
Too often in one-man massacre situations, the signs had been there before the day. But no one acted on it. It's good that this particular madman has been stopped in his tracks.
Yep, it sux to be a British national ( in many ways like this ), but I fully expect this same sort of thing to happen here in the US real soon. Under the same BS excuses of 'protectionism'.
Also, don't expect to be grandfathered in if you have *ever* purchased a book from a still existing retailer or publisher. They will have their records searched and the feds will be coming to see you ( and me ).
Just because it was 'legal' knowledge or activity once, doesn't mean it always will be.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Dial your stupid gun up to "nun" and fire :-)
I'm not even sure a shopping list means that much. It really depends on what specific information was on the list. I could completely see someone who is curious about bombs, after reading about their construction, creating a "shopping list" to see how easy or hard it would be to obtain the materials needed. And the jihad letter? I don't know. It seems "wrong" to me to the point where I would consider the possibility of it being planted by the police. I would be really curious if Asim originally denied ever writing that letter if he had admitted to owning the instructions.
I'm really a low 5-digit Slashdotter, but this ID is where I am now.
The USB stick also contained:
...anti-interrogation techniques and details on how to kill efficiently.
As well:
Officers also recovered a list that contained prices in both pounds and rupees of a number of items, including an AK47 rifle, rounds of ammunition, a grenade launcher and other survival or combat material.
So the summary is a bit misleading - it wasn't just the bomb making recipes. It was that, and the letter, and information on killing techniques, and anti-interrogation techniques, and price lists for arms, and information about survival stuff.
If we want to debate these things, we at least ought to get the context in there.
So what was the exact document? Can the police post a link + md5sum? I need to know so I can make sure I don't download it myself.
IANAL, but I believe, here in the US, pleading guilty is kind of like saying "Yeah, I did those things you are accusing me of."
IANALE(ither), but I believe, here in the US, pleading no contest isn't.
Also, in the UK, AFAICT, you can't plead "no contest".
With a hardy FUCK YOU. Knowledge is harmless. Idiots cause deaths.
How To Make Ricin
Information
Ricin is incredibly poisonous. It is extracted from castor beans, and just eight of these beans, if pulped, are considered toxic to an adult. If ricin is extraced from the beans, 1 or 2 granules (500 micrograms, or the size of a pinhead) is sufficient to kill an adult if injected, ingested or inhaled. (In comparison, arsenic requires more than 100 granules to kill via these methods).
Victims often manifest nausea, emesis, diarrhea, tachycardia, hypotension and seizures persisting for up to a week. Ricin also causes severe diarrhea and victims can die of shock. Because ricin inhibits the creation of proteins, it can take several hours for symptoms to manifest, and if not treated extremely quickly, a decent dose will almost certainly kill. Long term organ damage is likely in survivors.
Precautions
A solution of saline and glucose has been used to treat a ricin overdose (there seems to be no reliable formula for this, however). You should probably have one ready if you are even attempting to make ricin by this or any other formula. Also, gloves, a face mask, goggles and a secluded area are highly, highly advised. If any of this gets in the air or remains lying around, you can easily receive a fatal dose, and any pets will almost certainly die in a huge amount of pain.
Procedure
1. Obtain some castor beans from a garden supply store.
2. Put about 4 tablespoons of hot water into a glass jar and add a teaspoon full of lye. Mix it thoroughly.
3. Wait for the lye/water mixture to cool
4. Place 60g of the beans into the liquid and let them soak for one hour.
5. Pour out the liquid being careful not to get any on exposed skin (or wear gloves).
6. Rinse the beans off with cool water and then remove the outer husks with tweezers.
7. Put the bean pulp into a blender or coffee grinder (which you must dispose of after, preferably destroying it in the process) with 8 tablespoons of acetone for every 30g of beans.
8. Blend the pulp/acetone until it looks like milk.
9. Place the milky substance in a glass jar with an airtight lid for three days.
10. At the end of three days shake the jar to remix everything that’s started to settle then pour it into a coffee filter. Discard the liquid.
11. When no more liquid is dripping through the filter, squeeze the last of the acetone out of it without losing any of the bean pulp.
12. Spread the filter out on a pan covered with newspaper and let it dry stand until it is dry.
13. The final product must be as free of acetone and other contaminants as possible. If it is not powdery but still sort of moist and pulpy it must be combined with the appropriate amount of acetone again and let sit for one day.
14. Then repeat steps 9-12 again until a nice dry powder is produced.
So now you have ricin. I wouldn't recommend making this, and would argue strongly against using it if you do make it. This is merely for informational purposes only. If you're looking for revenge against someone, I would use something that will just make them violently ill, rather than dead.
Circa pre-9/11, 1999 I think, I found equivalent blue-prints online for the Fat Man bomb. It was a large color scan image, probably 3000x4000 with clear dimensions and references of the interior. Wikipedia says such blueprints are still classified. Those were the net golden years, weren't they?
Those blueprints are classified. What that means under American law is that it's a crime for someone with a security clearance to leak those blueprints. It is not a crime for a third party (e.g., newspaper, website, t-shirt printer, etc.) to publish those blueprints if they come into possession of them or manage to duplicate Fat Man on their own. This is why for all the bluster against him it's quite unlikely that Julian Assange could be convicted of anything (related to Wikileaks anyway) under American law.
See United States v. The Progressive and New York Times Co. v. United States for some of the relevant case law.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
That's when you watch him and track his purchases. Wait until he has the components, and then arrest him BEFORE he builds it... or just after.
Mark Anthony Collins
I am now thinking of a diabolical plan to hurtle the planet into our sun, killing everything.
Looks up science-y stuff for what it'd take to move a planet.
Hmm. There's a knock on the door. Wonder who it is.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
If I have a erection and tell a friend, "Man, I'd really like to rape that chick." Should I be arrested?
Yes, you possibly could be. Especially if the chick overhears you or feels threatened. In some situations you can't even tell a dirty joke.
I read it. Yes there was also a letter that seems to have shown that he had intent. Still, it's total thought crime.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
I like how they avoided stating it was chlorine gas, you know in case terrists are reading...
Well, I did read the article, and the guy hadn't broken any laws. He had not rendered material aid to terrorists, nor had he actually built any bombs, nor shot anyone.
He's probably not a savory character, and probably should be on a watchlist. But probably not jailed for acting at the same level as say a white supremacist survival nut (who should also be on a watchlist).
Check your premises.
Likewise read my post, I never said they sentenced him. I said they arrested him. As far as I know judges in the UK don't go around arresting people.
Actually, if you had been paying attention to some of the brits here, possessing the knowledge is in fact illegal. Yay terrorism laws!
It looks from the summary as if the father ratted his son out. That was not the case. The data was given to the police by mistake.
"Kauser's father gave police a USB stick which was thought to contain CCTV images of the burglary. "
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
So because I understand and possess the knowledge to create an Atomic weapon (which I do have said knowledge), I wonder what sort of jail time I would face in England. Best not to go to that country then... especially since you are guilty until proven innocent.
A shopping list is still in the realm of twisted fantasy.
If he'd actually bought anything on it, then it goes beyond thought crime.
It did not.
This guy should have absolutely been put on a watchlist. But it doesn't sound like he actually, you know, actually took action on his bent thought process.
Check your premises.
Another way to phrase "we have nothing to fear but fear itself" is "be not afraid".
It means that we can and should be fearless.
Oppression? Don't fear it, fight it.
Check your premises.
Apparently simply having this sort of document is a crime in the UK.
Is anyone else suppressing the urge to mass-email it to every Brit they don't like, members of parliament, and perhaps some royals (for good measure) to see if their police will go about a country-wide arresting spree?
What kind of moronic thing this? So if i'm interested in weapons and bomb and I download a recipe I'm a terrorist? WTF? as long as there are no real materials ordered/in possesion to actually build the stuff, people are free to the information.. So I guess there is more to this than the article mentions, as only having downloaded the documents can't be enough, it's not like it's childporn or something...
I wonder how much the search requests for those items spiked due to the Streisand Effect. I've seen lots of info on explosives without searching including Mythbusters making black powder and Dirty Jobs issue on Fireworks Technician. I don't know much about the poison. If I searched it, that would only be due to the Streisand Effect. I would not want to have an accident in an attempt to make that stuff.
Yeah, they made use of ricin quite pointedly in Breaking Bad as well as the whole premise of cooking meth. I figured that the producers didn't want to "give away any secrets" and not actually state any of the real steps for production, so I was briefly tempted to look up how to actually make ricin and meth.
I never bothered to read up on it due to the hysteria of, you know, just wanting to know stuff makes you an instant terrorist.
I ended up just torrenting the soundtrack instead.
"A government is a body of people usually -- notably -- ungoverned." -Shepherd Book
By that reasoning, all chemistry students should be jailed, since explosives are the most basic thing that every student learns as part of their studies.
Seriously?
Are you being purposefully contrary? I hope so. I find it difficult to believe that you're just a fan of tyranny.
By the time you've collected hard o find information and declared in a letter to someone you're prepared for it, you should be assumed to be well beyond the temptation phase.
You know as well as I do that information isn't exactly hard to come by these days. A quick google search will turn up countless bomb-making pages complete with step-by-step instructions.
As for the letter, this makes people uncomfortable, but only because it's a follower of some *other* religion that's prepared for war. Ask the average right-wing Christian church-goer in the US if they're prepared to go to war to defend their faith and you'll be met with an indignant "of course" (how dare you question their commitment!).
If you actually believe that justice was done, I challenge you to reflect on your reasoning and tell me if you genuinely believe the evidence is sufficient to believe that there was a possibility of real harm. I suspect that you'll find that you only feel that the detective and the judge have done right by society because the "criminal" in question was Muslim.
Required reading for internet skeptics
[comment not written down in order to avoid being tracked and jailed for having "evil" thoughts]
Now, mod me down freely. My karma can't get any worse...
99% of the time cops find out someone was making ricin when the neighbors complain about the smell of death.
If I was to post such instructions, I would leave out important steps to assure death for the poisoner.
Perhaps you did.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Dropped hog tied and naked in the Tenderloin.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
a) new AK and ammo (pisses off hippies and tree huggers)
b) survival stuff (i.e. camping)
c) killing techniques (i.e. hunting)
d) anti-interrogation techniques (no, honey, this is the same AK-47 I've always had)
To me, all of that sounds more like a pretty good weekend than pretense for terrorism.
Constitutional rights may be respected, repealed, or modified; but they must never be ignored.
So the summary is a bit misleading - it wasn't just the bomb making recipes. It was that, and the letter, and information on killing techniques, and anti-interrogation techniques, and price lists for arms, and information about survival stuff.
It's still just information. It's terrifying to think that merely being in possession of the wrong combination of information could be considered a crime.
As for the list you've provided, I imagine that there are a number of survivalists with shelves full of information about all of those topics -- and a collection of equipment to go along with it! That doesn't make them a criminal.
Required reading for internet skeptics
MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
He was arrested under the Terrorism Act of 2000 - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/11/section/58
"58 Collection of information.
(1) A person commits an offence if —
(a) he collects or makes a record of information of a kind likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism, or
(b) he possesses a document or record containing information of that kind."
Regarding (a) is piloting a plane likely to be useful to a person preparing an act of terrorism? What about driving a truck? Or having a map, knowing chemistry or the alphabet?
As to (b), if someone were to receive "likely information" mingled with (buried in) newsletters, commercial/religious pamphlets, encyclopedias, would that someone always be found guilty or is there some room in the law for other interpretations? Point (1) seems to state that the offence is committed every time this happens.
This is normal US red-state behavior. At any major US gun show, you can pick up books on bomb-making, IEDs, etc. Plus enough weaponry to start your own army. If you want an AK-47, there's AK-47man.com. He's a Colorado dealer seen at many gun shows.
Here's an AK-47 for sale. $475 gets you a Romanian AK-47, 2 30 round magazines, a carrying case,and bayonet. 1 year warranty. Don't forget the ammo! Get ready for deer season now!
after he blowed up.
No brain, no pain.
Actually, if you had been paying attention to some of the brits here, possessing the knowledge is in fact illegal. Yay terrorism laws!
Indeed, Britain has banned all knowledge.
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
As for the letter, this makes people uncomfortable, but only because it's a follower of some *other* religion that's prepared for war.
Nonsense. Terrorist is as far from the thoughts of the vast majority of Muslims as it is from Christians or Atheists.
If you actually believe that justice was done, I challenge you to reflect on your reasoning and tell me if you genuinely believe the evidence is sufficient to believe that there was a possibility of real harm. I suspect that you'll find that you only feel that the detective and the judge have done right by society because the "criminal" in question was Muslim.
You couldn't be further from the truth. That's not my opinion of Muslims, and my reaction would be the same to a Christian, Atheists, animal rights protestor, or whatever.
The looking for information isn't enough. The combination of that and the expression of intent in a letter is.
How far will you be taking this? I know it's not PC, etc., and the government's strength is such today, that it is actually dangerous to put any recorded word out there, but say if I always felt that I would like to destroy a lot of people, and I had these feelings for a very long time (over a decade), should I be thrown to jail for having such feelings?
Are feelings today all it takes for government to arrest and imprison people, even if there are recipes of bombs and what not in their possession?
You can't handle the truth.
I don't believe that he was quite past the fantasy stage yet, but the heart of the matter is just that; how do you define what constitutes past the fantasy stage?
Sometimes, life itself is sarcasm...
Maybe he did keep notes, but still he hadn't actually DONE anything.
In the UK Its not illegal to write down thoughts or plans involving an illegal act.
If I write a plan on a piece of paper for how I might kill someone, yes I should probably be watched, but I'm not actually guilty of anything until I act on the plan.
I defend your right to plan an attack. The key word is "plan" - eg, thinking.
See, I have this nifty ability - I can distinguish between thought and action.
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
The funny thing is, you're not as anonymous as you think you are.
Right. So you wouldn't have stopped e.g. the Columbine shooters. (15 dead). Or Breivik in Norway (77 dead). or the hundreds of other mass murderers who drew suspicion to themselves whilst they were still planning, but the suspicions weren't acted on.
There's a big difference between naive ideology of freedom to browse whatever you like and the reality of psychopaths actively planning to commit mass murder.
who defines the nature and extent of 'stumbling upon' ..........
Read radical news here
........gunned down...........
like he couldnt do just that by buying a firearm from a back alley underground trader.
Read radical news here
What if I already know how to do many of these things? I learned some interesting chemistry way back when, say 25-ish years ago. Does knowing this stuff, as a civilian, constitute a crime? Or do I need to write it down, by hand or digitally, first? Where do we draw the line?
If knowing this from knowledge gained back before it was illegal is a crime, how can I safely erase this information from my mind without damaging other stuff I know? What would be an 'acceptable' loss if other knowledge might be damaged by this removal?
I hope this comment is well received... I could have moderated instead!
Persecutors will be violated!
I don't even recall all the kinds of things I found on textfiles.com when I was 20 or so and bored/curious, but I remember saving textfiles to my HD just because I thought they were interesting. even stuff about writing viruses, none of which I understood. I was simply curious how it works, you know? I'd still totally love to read, say, instructions mafia people give to each other. not because I wanna do that, but because it'd be fascinating, just like knowing intricate details of how the military or police does something would be. I mean,shit, the movies we're being fed are usually beyond stupid in that respect, without exception, and that IS how the world is ultimately run, so why blame people for being curious? that doesn't make them criminals anymore than the police having that knowledge makes them criminals. actually, less so: everything else being equal, they, contrary to the police, haven't yet demonstrated a lust for power and a tendency to be spineless little bitches, and utensil to dark deeds. so, do the math, and quick, before they make that illegal as well.
good thing I was young when it was still allowed to be curious, and that I don't have that stuff around anymore, huh? holy fucking crap! that man needs to be freed ASAP, and the people responsible for jailing him need to be punished as well as seriously educated, then removed from ANY position of authority. that's all. don't take this crap. if you live in or anywhere near that jurisdiction, shame 'em, and correct it. just call it out and follow the string of shills that come out in defense of this crying shame, and take 'em down one by one, making sure they're down every time. this guy is in prison under your authority ultimately, please do something about it if you can. organize, and don't shut up.
The looking for information isn't enough. The combination of that and the expression of intent in a letter is.
The seeking of information shouldn't enter into it at all! Neither should the possession or even the further distribution of that information. That's the very basis of freedom of expression!
I encourage you to read the UN's 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights, (217 A III) , and the related 2011 Report of the Special Rapporteur on the promotion and protection of the right to freedom of opinion and expression (A/HRC/17/27).
Further, the supposed "expression of intent" in this case clearly wasn't. Merely saying that you're psychologically and financially prepared for holy war, should you be called is hardly what I'd call intent to commit a crime! As I asserted earlier, this attitude among religious people isn't uncommon.
If I made a post on a Christian message board asking if people were ready to go to war to defend their faith should they be called, should everyone who replied in the affirmative be arrested?
Required reading for internet skeptics
Furthermore (and this has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread), the word "Jihad" does not by any means refer solely to violence or attacks. As typically happens when one culture has come to fear aspects of another culture, the concept of Jihad has been twisted by western culture to mean terrorist attacks and violence. There is no evidence in the aforementioned letter that the writer (who may not have even been Asim) was intending to commit illegal acts, violent or otherwise. His use of the word Jihad is not different than a devote Catholic stating that he intends to Crusade for the purity of faith. The word Crusade has historical context to mean violent holy wars, but it can indicate a struggle in the abstract sense. Taking either statement as a sign of violent intent is a level of reactionary fear that frankly I find quite disturbing.
Have you ever read something like the Anarchist's Cookbook? Google it. I personally read something that I downloaded ages ago simply out of morbid curiosity. In addition to instructions for assembling basic homemade bombs it also had suggestions on where to buy assault rifles, what kinds of weapons you should have in case the police come knocking on your door, how to stab people with a knife to kill them as quickly as possible... When I found this pdf online was I fully prepared for what it might contain? God no, the parts about how to kill and skin you neighbor's pets made me sick to my stomach. Have I ever planned to shoot, stab, blow up, or otherwise maim anyone around me based on information I obtained in that pdf? Hell no! In fact, it occurred to me while I was reading it that if someone else saw it on my computer they might get freaked out and call the cops, so I deleted it. Needless to say my curiosity was more than satisfied and I have no plans ever to download that sort of thing again.
I encourage you to read the UN's 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights, (217 A III)
I guess you didn't read as far as article 30.
Article 30
Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.
I'm afraid you've got your priorities wrong. You seem to think your personal concept of a right to plan mass-murder is more important than the right to life of the victims.
There is no evidence in the aforementioned letter that the writer (who may not have even been Asim) was intending to commit illegal acts, violent or otherwise.
You don't think the presence of explosive recipes, instructions for the manufacture of ricin, and price lists for military weapons on the same USB drive isn't evidence as to what he meant by Jihad?
Or the fact that he pleaded guilty.
You're not exactly Sherlock Holmes, are you.
I'd rather have freedom with some danger, than be coddled.
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
I've responded to the possession of information elsewhere, so I'll sum up here.
No I don't think possession of that information is anything close to provable intent. I once downloaded something along the lines of the Anarchist Cookbook simply out of morbid curiosity. I've certainly never intended on blowing anyone up. As I recall it also described places to buy assault rifles and how to defend against a police raid. Hell whatever I read also had some bits about dismembering your neighbor's pets that I found quite sickening. I promptly deleted it and I doubt I'll ever go looking for something like that again. Possessing information like that, easily obtainable or otherwise, in no way (and in no sane legal system) amounts to proof of intent.
The typical reasons for pleading guilty (at least in US courts) are that you have either struck a deal with the prosecution and will receive a reduced sentence or you do not believe you have any hope of defending yourself and receiving a not guilty verdict. I wouldn't be surprised if Mr Kauser received a reduced sentence in exchange for the guilty plea, especially considering how far the case seems to have been stacked against him.
Take your pick:
1. Allow terrorist crimes to happen, then prosecute;
2. Look for suspicious behaviors and arrest beforehand, although this will include internet searches, purchases of ingredients (think of the pipe bomb making scene from "Teminator") and possibly illicit thoughts;
3. Racially and culturally profile, as a precursor to achieving a monoracial and monoethnic society with a single strong religious foundation.
Different religions, ideologies, cultures, etc. don't play well with each other. So we need some way to arrest people in advance, or we just watch the buildings explode.
Me? I've put all my bomb-making instructions on an encrypted darknet. You'll never get my decryption code either, since I've written it down and hidden it in my rectum.
Futurist Traditionalism
And before we start feeling too smug in the USA, you might want to look into what happens if you post information on the manufacture of methamphetamine online in the USA.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
There is absolutely nothing wrong with arresting people for having detailed bomb plans and no explaination for why.
Even then, the police lost the chance of getting into his spiritual mentor and maybe arresting some real terrorists. All that because they decided to arrest somebody that would happily blow himself at his lab while persuiting some fantasy.
That is the practical reason for "pre-crimes are bad". You don't get anybody smart enough to be dangerous by that route. Add that for all moral reasons and that "revolutions are necessary" thing.
Rethinking email
Politicians + corps know how to cause harm to all the population with monopolistic practices, bribes, inflation, etc....They should be arrested !
For that you would have to detain the hundreds of thousands of not murderers that drew suspicion to themselves too.
Rethinking email
There is no plan for a terrorist attack in TFA, and he didn't go shopping guns. There is some vague display of intentions, and some research about prices of guns.
Ok, the people of a country has all the right to create stupid laws, and the police has all the right of being stupid and not using this guy to get some actual terrorists. But we have all the right to complain that those stupid things are stupid, and to talk about it. (Well, as least I have that right, it is protected by the Constitution here, unless I mark that post anonymous box up there, then I lose it - I know, stupid.)
Rethinking email
How about they just arrest YOU right now, since, you know, it's easier than cleaning up your mess afterwards. I'm sure they could find something incriminating among your effects. Maybe a copy of Catcher in the Rye...
Your professor lied to you. Ok, I won't think he made anything wrong, he got your attention, that's what was important there. But building an implosion nuclear bomb is not easy in any way. Those instructions are public, you can search and read them (unless you are at the UK), but while you read keep in mind that you don't have atomicaly precise components.
Rethinking email
When I was studying chemistry (I'm a software consultant now for 10+ years), there was a special "poison cabinet" in our University library containing "dangerous books". One of them was a book from GDR (former German Democratic Republic, a.k.a East Germany) containing recipes for warface agents, bombs and guerilla warfare. The book wasn't freely available to everyone (you were asked why you wanted to know all that stuff), but it was available. No one was asked afterwards by the police for renting it or BS like that. I wonder if this has changed after 9/11 ?!?
because EVERYONE is tempted to do what is wrong from time to time. It is only when they actually DO it that they have DONE something illegal.
Close to the truth: the human brain is a planning machine. It evaluates (must needs evaluates!) both positive and negative plans. Evaluating the negative plans helps one to not pursue them. So, having thoughts of killing one's self, or others, is not evidence of imminent crimes. It is merely evidence of evaluation. The corollary? If one decides that the negative plans are worth pursuing -- that is when one needs help. Not when one is evaluating. For instance, I regularly think about ways I can kill myself. I constantly tell myself, "no..."; that is healthy. I defy government to tell me otherwise (and, of course, they'll win; but I'll be right, even when I'm on the wrong side of the grass thanks to my government). The previous statement was unconsciously motivated by the book I'm currently reading, "It is Dangerous to be Right When the Government is Wrong". Highly recommended.
I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
You seem to think your personal concept of a right to plan mass-murder is more important than the right to life of the [future, potential] victims.
Fixed that for us.
I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
It demonstrates intent.
So does owning a gun. By owning a weapon, you actually show more intent and means to kill than just having the mere instructions downloaded by this guy.
Are you suggesting that everyone that owns a handgun and has written an angry letter to the OpEd section should be arrested?
--
$tar -xvf
Are you suggesting that everyone that owns a handgun and has written an angry letter to the OpEd section should be arrested?
In Britain, yes. It's illegal to own handguns.
You'd certainly have to investigate them. Remove them from certain categories of jobs. And if they've committed crimes, detain them.
Individually they are potential. We don't know who is going to get killed. But there is no doubt that there are going to be future mass murders, and they may or may not be stopped, depending on whether threats are taken seriously or not.
I'm not saying that that justifies anything done in the name of terrorism. TSA at airports for example is way over the top. But when someone is caught with clear intent, it's stupid to not take action.
You'd be like one of the teachers that did nothing about the suspicious behaviour of this guy then.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16742608
There's no plea bargaining in the UK. But there is the danger that a judge is going to give a heavier sentence if he thinks you've wasted the court's time by pleading not guilty on an open and shut case.
The case is so stacked against him because he's guilty as charged. Collecting information for terrorism and expressing intent to do it is criminal.
Plenty of dumb people manage to commit mass murder. e.g. The columbine shooters were far from grade A students.
The 7/7 bombers and the 21/7 bombers in London used the same unsophisticated recipe for bomb making. The 21/7 bombs failed to go off. The 7/7 bombs killed 56 people.
You can just assume stupid people are only a danger to themselves.
The US Constitution applies to all US Citizens... no matter where they are at.
Are You Living in a Constitution Free Zone?
Just to put this into context - this man got 2 years in jail (ok, he'll probably only seve half that) while violent thugs who please guilty to GBH often get non-custodial sentences.
So what we're saying now is that having naughty thoughts and desires is WORSE than beating a man in the street.
Some people used to assume looking at pornography meant you intended to commit rape.
Some people still think that watching violent movies will make you violent.
Now we're down to arresting anyone that downloads the Jolly Roger Cookbook.
Next week - how watching Reservoir Dogs means you're planning a robbery.
Prepared for jihad. That's your argument.
The word "jihad" is transliteration of an Arabic word. The usual translation is "struggle" but when translating between languages context can be very important.
Thus it can matter a lot if the original letter was in English or Arabic.
You don't think the presence of explosive recipes, instructions for the manufacture of ricin, and price lists for military weapons on the same USB drive isn't evidence as to what he meant by Jihad?
It's also possible that the information could be used to write an article (or novel) opposed to terrorists and their methods.
Or the fact that he pleaded guilty.
That's really the only issue.
I have not argued that Mr Kauser broke UK law. Someone else in this thread posted a link to a relevant section of published UK law that seems to define the possession of information that could be used to make things like bombs as a crime. My point has been that such a prejudgement, with what both I and the US legal system (generally) seems to consider to be an insufficient body of evidence to prove intent, goes beyond justice into the realm of thoughtcrime. Were I a citizen of the UK I would contact my representatives to voice protest both for this verdict and the existence of the relevant law. I do not believe it is morally right and just to send an individual to prison simply because of the information they have sought out or possess.
The shopping list and letter were irrelevant to the prosecution case. This was not about intent - the police admitted they didn't know his intent. He was prosecuted and found guilty of having the information regarding bomb making and ricin, which is a crime in itself in the UK.
He was charged and convicted for possession of the information, which is in itself a crime in the UK. He was not charged with intent or conspiracy. He would've been just as guilty without the anonymous letter and shopping list - they were not relevant to the prosecution case.
what's wrong with my setting off a bomb on my own property?
Many things, beginning with your inability to absolutely prevent any of the noise, shrapnel, or things hot enough to start a fire from going beyond the property line.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
They should also arrest him for a rape. Because, you know, he could - he has everything necessary for that!
It's not just the information he sought out and possessed. There's also the intent he expressed in the letter.
There is absolutely nothing wrong
I disagree. If they wanted to arrest him, then it should be completely up to them to prove he was going to do something.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
In a perfect system I happen to agree, however this is no worse than arresting someone because you believe them to have committed a murder -- something that happens all the time without anyone getting worked up.
If you take your logic further they also shouldn't be able to get warrants or anything else that might presume guilt -- that system just doesn't work.
What you're referring to is a self-policing state, which may be required or a truely free country but that's a whole different discussion.
How about when you're the primary suspect in a murder investigation the police have no concrete proof that you did it yet -- that's why they want to get a warrant -- but you don't want them to search your house. No one can prove that you've infringed on the rights of others so clearly having your property searched or being questioned is an afront to freedom. Nevermind that the number of murderers caught and prosecuted would be near zero.
In this case we have a man with very specific bomb plans downloaded a long time ago and stored on media. Very evidently more than mere curiosity. There are active unsolved bombings on the record, this guy is as much a murder suspect as anyone.
That's not what I meant (although that is indeed what I said). I meant the fact that he was actually jailed and that possessing such knowledge is actually illegal.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
Actually, as far as I understand from reading author's notes etc from books from the 70's, Sci Fi isn't really right either, and is already "too popularized". The "pure" term used to be SF, which of course Long Ago meant Science Fiction. Then the whole 60's New Wave came along, and new groups wanted to squeeze in Speculative Fiction into SF, which were stories that, well, speculated, but didn't claim to have any science content, other than perhaps Psychology or Sociology.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
"I didn't know committing a crime magically vaporizes your passport! who knew!"
It does when a Terrorist commits Copyright Infringement of pictures of the Brady Bunch kids.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
There's probably too much pigeonholing. I'd say a story published in 1946 in Astounding Science Fiction is SF (here's the story). It is speculative and concerns sociology, and although it has to do with technology (it's the only pre-internet story I saw about the internet unless you count Asimov's Multivac), it's not scientific at all.
OTOH, LOTR which came out about the same time is certainly not SF!
As to "too popularized", what writer would say that? I would think any writer would want to be as popular as he possibly could! Could it have been a case of sour grapes?
According to the fellows you're talking about, much of Asimov's fiction wasn't SF. The Elijia Baily trilogy, for example, are simply murder mysteries set in a dystopian future; pure sociology. And R. Daneel Olivaw's "positronic brain" (as well as Asimov's other robots, and Star Trek's Data) certainly isn't any more "science" than Star Wars' "mitichlorians" or Bilbo's magic ring.
Free Martian Whores!
"Set in a dystopian future; pure sociology" - this was exactly the squabble back around the 60's with "Science" fiction vs "Speculative" fiction, where the latter category picked up non-hard-science stories. But then the "hard SF" writers got a little grumpy that "their label" was diluted, like you see the AC posts saying "slashdot is dead" today.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine