Active Video Games Don't Make Kids Exercise More

redletterdave writes "Researchers from Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, Texas, designed every kid's dream study: they passed out Wii consoles to 78 kids who didn't already have one, and gave half the kids their choice of active game — such as Wii Sports or Dance Dance Revolution-Hottest Party 3 — and the other half their choice of inactive game, such as Disney Sing-It Pop Hits or Super Mario Galaxy. The research team tracked the youngsters for 13 weeks, testing their physical activity levels with a motion-measuring accelerometer. Participants wore the devices on a belt during four different week-long periods throughout the study, which allowed the research team to determine when they were sedentary or lightly exercising and when they were engaged in moderate-to-vigorous exercise. Accelerometer logs showed that throughout the study period, kids with the active games didn't get any more exercise than those given inactive video games. There was also no difference in minutes spent doing light physical activity or being sedentary during any week the researchers monitored."

Comments

Same as school exercise

[mdarksbane]

Study after study has shown the same thing with exercise at school.

I wonder if the problem isn't so much that the average kid is being less active, as much as the current average diet is making those kids who *aren't* inclined to be active/have a high metabolism obese instead of just out of shape.

Re:Same as school exercise

[jerpyro]

As a parent of young children in a single-income household, honestly I see the next class division between those who can afford to feed their kids healthy foods and those who can't. I can see a difference in my kids' ambition and attention levels when we eat balanced, home cooked meals with vegetables and whole grains versus when they've had three days of "Pizza Night", "Cereal Night" and "Out to Eat Night".

It's scary what a good diet can do for kids, and it's even scarier that the diet is out of reach for a majority of people in America.

Re:Same as school exercise

[I'm just joshin]

Bullshit. People who can't feed their family well for less than the price of a pizza ($10-$20) are full of it.

Veggies are cheap, often under $1/lb.
Rice is less than $0.25/lb
Chicken Breasts can often be found for under $2.00/lb

The above is the core of a great meal that costs less than $6, will feed 4 people, and can be made in 35 minutes with only around 15 minutes of kitchen time.
(2lbs of chicken, 1 dry cup of rice, and 1lb of veggies)

And instead of spending $3-$4 on a loaf of bread, bake your own loaf of light wheat bread for around $0.25. With a bread machine, the work is trivial and the bread is better than store bought.

-J

Re:Same as school exercise

[Nidi62]

Go to any grocery store, and you can get packs of frozen vegetables for $1, and often times even less than that. While they are certainly not as healthy as fresh vegetables, they are still healthier and easily affordable, even on a minimum wage income. They are still far cheaper and healthier than pizza or going to a fast food joint, and they cook up in minutes. Combine that with a pack of $1.99 per lb of chicken, and you can feed a family of 4 for $5-6. Go to McDonalds, and 1 combo meal will cost more than that. A healthy diet is not out of reach for most of America. The problem is that most of America simply DOES NOT WANT IT. Just like with making sure your kid gets a good education, or has a good home life, it requires effort. Many people these days just don't want to have to make any effort.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Anonymous Coward]

I really don't see how this is a cost issue. Healthy foods aren't inherently more expensive by any means. Vegetables and whole grains are cheap, and chicken and turkey are not very expensive either. You can certainly make a healthy meal for a hell of a let less money than Pizza Night or Out to Eat night, and you can also eat healthily on Out To Eat night and, to a lesser extent, Cereal Night. And don't pretend for a second that it's a lack of money that leads to Cereal Night; that comes exclusively from a lack of time and/or energy.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Unoriginal_Nickname]

Yeah. All for the opportunity cost of one of those parents being at home to cook three square meals a day.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Sancho]

I'm interested in the raw numbers for the meals you're quoting. Eating out is frankly pretty expensive, and a report I read showed that home-cooked, healthy meals tended to be cheaper but far more time-consuming.

Thus, the assertion of being unable to afford healthy food could be accurate for a family where the caregivers are working a combined 140 hours per week or something. For single-income households (with two parents) there's almost no reason to not choose the cheaper, healthier, time-consuming option.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Anonymous Coward]

I totally agree that cooking from scratch at home can be cheap and doesn't have to be too time consuming, and certainly much healthier than just buying rubbish. However, I find it odd that fruit and vegetables do seem more expensive in the US than they do in the UK, and almost everything else (except for broadband) is more expensive here. I'm American, but live permanently in the UK now, and when we go to visit my mother in the US for a few weeks every year, we're always taken aback by the cost of fresh fruit and veg (you'd think we would have got over it by now!). That's not to say that everyone can't afford them, just that they're relatively more expensive in the US than the UK (in my experience).

Re:Same as school exercise

[TheRaven64]

Ingredients are cheap, but you have to cook them, which requires time. Oh and does a loaf of bread really cost $3-4 where you live? The last time I spent that much on a loaf of bread it was a focaccia with sun dried tomatoes and olives. A baked-in-store supermarket loaf costs about half that. I do bake my own bread, but mostly because it's nicer when it's cooked 10 minutes ago than when it's cooked that morning, not because it's cheaper. Given the current price of flour and electricity, I don't think my home-baked bread is much cheaper than buying it.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Rakishi]

I know this new fangled world is still baffling for you, having evidently slept for the last few hundred years, but during your nap we've invented certain things. They include the refrigeration, which is like the ice box of your time but keeps things cold (or even frozen) year round with no need to fit it with expensive blocks of harvested ice. We have also invented the microwave which is like a fast heating oven without the heat, fire or time the later requires.

I recommend you look into these fine inventions before commenting again.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Nidi62]

Yeah. All for the opportunity cost of one of those parents being at home to cook three square meals a day.

If a school-aged child can't be trusted/doesn't have the ability to throw some vegetables in a pot of boiling water or in the microwave, and throw some chicken on a skillet, then there's a serious problem. I was cooking meals on my own by 6th grade. The only reason I didn't before that was I didn't have to. But I had the ability to.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Sancho]

Citation for my earlier claim:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/25/opinion/sunday/is-junk-food-really-cheaper.html?pagewanted=all

Re:Same as school exercise

[RogueyWon]

Sorry, don't believe you. The cheapest meals I eat each week are the ones I cook myself from fresh ingredients. The more expensive nights are the ones where I treat myself to a pre-prepared meal or a takeaway.

Fresh-cooked food takes longer to prepare and has a higher effort-barrier and, common pieties aside, unless you are a seriously good cook it may not actually taste as nice as the pre-processed stuff - but unless you're insisting on only buying organic and other daft middle-class obsessions, it's pretty much always cheaper.

Re:Same as school exercise

[metlin]

That is the most ridiculous excuse I've heard. Who says you have to cook it all individually?

You can cook breakfast and lunch in the morning, and cook dinners in the evening. Plus, if you've a single income household (re: OP), odds are, one of the parents is home.

It really isn't that hard. You even get microwaveable veggies, and grill the meat. Half hour to an hour at most. Add some spices and you're good to go.

Grab a drink of water or lemonade, and you've a pretty darn healthy meal. Hell, even if you only had a healthy breakfast and dinner, you're doing better than most.

Re:Same as school exercise

[mdarksbane]

I'd say ignorant and busy.

Many people do not know how to cook interesting food for cheap. Yes, it's something that they should learn, but it is entirely as much of a skill as algebra. It takes time to develop, is not really taught in schools, and if not taught at home is going to require a lot of self-motivation to pick up.

Similarly, much of good cooking takes time. If you have one parent working and another staying at home, you have that time. If you're both working, especially if you work long hours or have a bad commute, you may not have that time.

Does that mean that we should re-examine some of our societal priorities, or make a bigger deal about keeping two parents in households, or make teaching cooking and basic life skills a bigger priority? Yes. Definitely.

We need to realize that cooking, cleaning, shopping, and budgetting aren't things that people just know, even if *we* just know them because our parents taught them to us. There are all sorts of social capital that are so organic to our experience that we don't realize how hard it is to get by without them. That doesn't mean we should think it's cool to not know these things - but it does mean we should say "we should find a way to help people know this is an option, and how they can do it" rather than just saying they're too stupid and lazy to do it.

Re:Same as school exercise

[futuresheep]

Frozen vegetables can be more nutrient rich than fresh, especially if the fresh vegetables were flown in from another country or stored in a warehouse before making it to the supermarket.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2902223.stm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frozen_vegetables
http://www.livestrong.com/article/71064-fresh-versus-frozen-produce-which-healthier/

Re:Same as school exercise

[Anonymous Coward]

One word as an example of that; England.

Re:Same as school exercise

[atfrase]

Yeah. All for the opportunity cost of one of those parents being at home to cook three square meals a day.

It is very, very important for people to read and understand the significance of this comment.

Many folks from the "middle"-class on up simply don't understand what life is like for single parents, or even or dual parents who must work multiple jobs to pay the bills. Yes, raw food of the sort that can be prepared into healthy and nutritious meals is not (necessarily) inherently expensive; what puts it out of reach for many low-income folks is not the money but the TIME it takes to go to the grocery store, bring those foodstuffs home, and then prepare them.

Single parents cannot leave their small children unattended that long, and bringing them along adds even more logistical overhead. There often isn't a single grocery store in low-income neighborhoods, requiring an even longer car trip, if the family can even afford a car; otherwise, an even longer bus ride, which also limits the trip to how much can be carried in two hands to, from and on the bus.

Making a healthy diet accessible to low-income families is not an issue of price, it is an issue of availability and logistics, and those issues are NOT insignificant. People need to understand that, to avoid falling into the trap of thinking poor folks are just lazy -- they're not, most of them work harder than you do, I promise you. Unless you've actually been a low-income single parent, don't presume to understand what the challenges are.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Anonymous Coward]

Save the bread machine money and buy the cheapest whole grain bread in the store.

Bigger problem is the lack of "Home Economics" education. Many young adults just don't know how to cook AT ALL, much less how to cook healthy food. Not to mention understanding nutrition basics.

When the parents and schools don't teach how to be healthy, the children don't know how to be healthy.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Rakishi]

It's even easier than that. You cook in bulk once (or twice) a week, refrigerate/freeze and then microwave (or reheat on the stove) during the week.

Re:Same as school exercise

[moderatorrater]

I'm wondering if the problem isn't that we need to make kids exercise more, but that kids will exercise the same amount no matter what you do. We have many studies showing that we can't make kids exercise more, but we keep trying. It seems insane to me.

Instead of trying to control something that studies show is uncontrollable, we should control what we can. I would think we should make the exercise they do at school and at home as fun as possible so it's a positive experience in their minds and then teach them to eat healthy. Since eating appears to be the only part of the calorie equation we can control, this is the only way to fight childhood obesity. Linking exercise with positive things in their minds encourages them to continue exercising throughout their life.

Re:Same as school exercise

[mdarksbane]

I think the class division is already there, between those who have the acquired knowledge and prioritization to provide healthy meals on a limited budget, and those who do not.

It is definitely more *complicated*, but it does not require significantly more time or expense.

Today, I can throw together any of several dozen meals that will be cheaper and healthier than frozen or prepared foods, and only take an extra 10 minutes of prep. If I had tried the same thing ten years ago I would have been limited to ramen and mac & cheese.

It used to be that girls studied home economics and cooking, so that someone in the family would know how to handle these things. I'm glad women have other and more options now, but we need to do *something* to fill that knowledge gap.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Anonymous Coward]

lol. this is absurd. Guess what, I get home at 6-6:30pm (after my 1.5 hour commute), have dinner ready by 6:30-7:30. We eat well. My wife does the dishes and cleans up after dinner, guess what, she worked all day too! Insane eh, people preparing food!

-- not middle class, still somehow feeds family well

Re:Same as school exercise

[Anonymous Coward]

Congrats on playing the "lower economic class people are poor because they are lazy and stupid" card. Very original.

Go compare the prices of fresh produce (assuming there is even anything other than a convenience store in your poor neighborhood) to that of cheap, processed food. Good luck with eating fresh food regularly on minimum wage.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Belial6]

While I agree that diet will certainly effect your ability to think, and general energy levels, I am not convinced that things will play out like you think. What kids (and adults) are currently being taught are 'healthy' foods are so far out of whack that I don't see the wealthy coming out dramatically ahead.

Your list is a good example. Yes, Pizza and Cereal are terrible for you, but the idea that somehow your food being cooked in your own home magically makes it healthier than if it is cooked in a restaurant, shows how far off people can get in understanding food. There is also the fact that the population is been trained to think that an all sugar/no fat diet is somehow healthy. This will likely lead to those that can afford to feed their children healthy food, choosing foods that are unhealthy, while patting themselves on the back for being such great parents.

Re:Same as school exercise

[moderatorrater]

I agree completely. It's entirely a matter of time. Food, Inc completely missed the point on this one too (before everyone chimes in with that documentary). It's not cheaper to eat out than it is to eat at home, it's just a matter of time and ability. My wife can cook a nutritious meal for us and our son with less than $5 pretty easily, but it takes her about an hour and a lot of equipment. It also takes a lot of skill that others might not have.

I don't know what the solution is completely, but it seems like classes like those they do for child seats would be useful. In my area they have classes where anyone can go and learn how to properly use their car seats. Childhood eating habits are at least that important. They also hand out coupons for cheap car seats for under privileged families their, they could do the same with kitchen implements.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Anonymous Coward]

Some would call your "fresh ingredients" a "daft middle-class obsession" and say their eating out habits are just fine. Don't be so quick to pass your petty judgments.

Re:Same as school exercise

[jellomizer]

Well normally people with a Low Metabolism are the ones who tend to be more overweight as their body doesn't burn calories as quickly.

But people with a Low Metabolism tend to be less active in general. I knew a girl with a very High Motabolism, she needed to eat all the time if she didn't or skipped a snack she would be in pain. And she was quite thin, while myself I have to watch everything I eat if I eat too much I will gain weight.

But also this girl would be far more hyper then I would be. Almost everything she needed to do it had to be done quick, it was like I was on Slow Motion and She was on Fast Forward.

So people do have a different natural tenancy towards activity levels. While diet is part of the problem, but it also more to the fact there is less need for a kid to be active when they don't want to be so. In today world of Stranger Danger and Zero Tolerance Hyper safety rules kids are not allowed to be active except for during regulated non-fun events.

To keep our kids safe we get them use to living in a situation where going out isn't fun, and they cannot visit their friends unless it is in a well regulated environment. Exercise needs to happen during particular hours during the day and with the prescribed activities often with people who you dislike.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Tharsman]

Fast food is extremely expensive. It's way cheaper to buy raw meats, vegetables and fruit. Grass feed beef and antibiotic free chicken, plus organic fruits and vegies are ideal and are on the expensive side, but going for the regular store stuff is still WAY healthier than fast food and also much more affordable.

Grains and complex carbs are all very unhealthy. A proper healthy diet should only consist of fruit, vegetables and meats (there is a LOT of room to do good cooking there, you can do many sauces and stuff just with vegies.) Nuts and mushrooms are also fine.

Bread, potato, pasta and rice are the biggest reason for obesity. You don’t even have to over eat them to gain weight if your diet is nearly heavily based around them. You won’t lose weight counting calories as long as these items are still on your diet.

Fats are actually not as bad as most people think. The correlation between fat and heart decease is something I still don’t understand. It has no real medical study backing and almost seems religious in nature (pure faith.) In combination with complex crabs they can buildup but it’s not because of fats, it’s because of what the crabs do to you that your body can’t process them properly.

It’s actually takes a lot of effort to gain weight if you only consume meats, fruits and vegetables.

Big clarification: some confuse this with “low carb” diets. That’s not how this goes. It’s not about eliminating all carbs; it’s about eliminating gluten and complex carbs. You should get your carb intake from fruit and vegetables, and most meals may actually not go down very well if they are entirely composed of meat and fat.

One last note: candy and granulated sugar are not mentioned here but are horrible for you. Get your sweet stuff from fruit like pears and kiwi. Oh and the stuff stores sell under the name of “yogurt” is either just candy or artificial chemical hell. Avoid that stuff.

Sources: The prices at the grocery store, the prices at fast foods and my wife who is a diabetes researcher.

Fats are actually not as bad for you as most people think. The correlation between fat and heart decease is something I still don’t understand. It has no real medical study backing and almost seem religious in nature (pure faith.) In combination with complex crabs they can buildup but it’s not because of fats, it’s because of the crabs.

It’s actually takes a lot of effort to gain weight if you only consume meats, fruits and vegetables.

Big clarification: some confuse this with “low carb” diets. That’s not how this goes. It’s not about eliminating all carbs; it’s about eliminating gluten and complex carbs. You should get your carb intake from fruit and vegetables, and most meals may actually not go down very well if they are entirely composed of meat and fat.

Sources: The prices at the grocery store, the prices at fast foods and my wife who is a diabetes researcher.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Hentes]

Cooking is cheaper than eating out. The fact that there is a correlation between poor people and obesity it's not because low income causes obesity, but because there is a common cause behind those two things: laziness.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Moryath]

Go further than that.

Check out the "produce" section in a lower-income neighborhood's grocery stores. Chances it's pretty small and what food is there is wilty and not appetizing-looking. Now go look at the produce section in an upscale chain like Whole Foods or Central Market; produce kept fresh-looking, wilted stuff quickly taken away, perky looking un-bruised fruits and vegetables.

It's not just a "smarts" thing. If I were looking to buy apples or bananas, and all the apples in the bin were bruised and scrawny looking and the bananas looked like they'd been left to rot, I'd probably skip the produce section too.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Moryath]

You leave a 5th or 6th grade kid home alone using the gas range or electric range, and you watch CPS get called on you the first time they burn a finger and the teacher reports it.

Then you answer to CPS as to why your kid was "unsupervised and allowed to work with dangerous cooking equipment."

Re:Same as school exercise

[jerpyro]

I think a large part of what I'm saying is that people need to be educated on *how* to make cheap meals. And education takes time. And that time isn't easy to come by if BOTH parents are working MULTIPLE jobs and making less than I do. I also have to think that those people have the conception that they should eat something enjoyable rather than utility -- not many people can handle eating Rice, Beans and Chicken over Frozen Veggies every night.

The people I'm talking about can't afford pizza or out-to-eat night like we can. The pizza comment was intended to illustrate the contrast between balanced diets and unbalanced. I'm not complaining about my salary, I'm just saying that some people really do eat off the dollar menu because the $5-7 to feed your family in 10 minutes is less than the $3-5 + 2 hours it takes to plan, prepare and clean up after a meal.

Those are also the types of people who don't have time to read and post on slashdot :P

Re:Same as school exercise

[realityimpaired]

Chicken's not $1.99/lb here, it's closer to $4.99/lb. Beef and pork are more expensive, and good quality fish is in the range where it's a luxury for a lot of people. And the frozen veggies are nowhere near the quality of fresh veg... some veggies can be frozen and still retain their nutrition, but some veggies lose all nutrition value when you freeze 'em.

And aside from that, it's not only the economics of buying fresh/quality food. It's also the economics of time... if you're living in the bracket where both parents have to work full time, and your kid is a latchkey kid, then the kid is likely to feed themselves at least some of the time. That usually means having stuff in the house that the kid can easily prepare on their own. Read: pre-fab stuff they can toss in the oven when they get home.

There are ways around it... for breakfast, for example, most hot cereals will keep quite well overnight and can be reheated in the microwave in the morning... I cook oatmeal or cream of wheat the night before, because I'm usually out the door and on the way to work at 6:30 and it saves time. But ultimately, it is a question of time, and if you don't have time to put in the prep work for preparing a healthy meal, you'll default to prefab food that you can toss in the oven and ignore.

There's a degree of laziness involved for some, definitely, but for others, it really is a question of not being able to afford the time. GP is correct that it will be a new class divide.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Unoriginal_Nickname]

This is precisely the issue. Prepared frozen microwaveable meals are attractive to people with a low SES because they store longer (less time spent shopping) and they take less time to prepare. Those meals are also among the most unhealthy things you will find in a grocery store.

Re:Same as school exercise

[g0bshiTe]

I see the next class division between those who can afford to feed their kids healthy foods and those who can't

Funny I see the opposite. It is actually more expensive eating out or eating unhealthy when you have a teenager vs eating healthy. We eat assorted meats and fresh veggies every night for far less than eating out every night.

Re:Same as school exercise

[DarKnyht]

You are correct those can be barriers/limitations, especially if you are not willing to adapt to those barriers/limitations. To my knowledge places like Schwan's still do home delivery of a multitude of fruits/vegetables, meats, and complete meals. And before you protest, Schwan's can be ordered online, by phone, or just by having a sales person stop by, and they deliver by truck, freezer bag, or UPS. Along those lines, most people can invest and should into not only a refrigerator but a small stand up freezer (most larger cities have used appliance stores and even new a freezer is only about $150 or about the cost of the smartphone you just had to have).

Instead of going out for food, let the food come to you. Another option instead of buying your groceries daily/weekly, plan ahead and buy bi-weekly or monthly. Buying in bulk (with coupons) saves money and reduces the overall time that you need for shopping so that you can reasonably plan (babysitting, taxi, friend to help, etc.). In fact, the savings brought by planning ahead and buying/preparing your own food vs. McDonald's will help pay for the items above. Invest in freezer containers and have a meal preparation day (ie. cook and then freeze the food to be reheated when the week is busy), and learn that it is okay to eat the same thing for a few days.

I agree it is not easy to be a single parent in a low income situation. However, planning and making good use of what time you do have can go a long way to take some of the pressure off your back. If you can find time to watch television, then you have time that you could be doing some of the above. I know it's not fair, but the question is, "What are you willing to sacrifice so your children can have a better future?"

But I also agree with something another poster said. Our public schools/society fail to teach us what should be considered basic life skills. No one should walk away from school not knowing basic homemaking (cooking and cleaning), budgeting (balancing a checkbook and living within your means), and basic mechanical skills (car care/maintenance, home care/maintenance). And these are lessons that should start early in education.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Belial6]

Around these parts, a pizza can always be purchased for $5, so you are already wrong. Rice and bread are terrible for you. If your going to eat them, you don't really have much room for complaining about pizza. When you stick to the healthy, meat and vegetables, your price goes up.

You are comparing expensive fast food to cheap eating in.

Re:Same as school exercise

[ravenscar]

We purchased ours for $4 at a local thrift store. There were a bunch available at that price. I'm not adding this comment to argue one way or the other about how difficult/not difficult it is for the poor to enjoy healthy diets. This is simply info that some of you might find useful. Our $4 bread machine has been a great investment. Not only does it give us fresh bread, it provides an activity that the kids enjoy.

Re:Same as school exercise

[jerpyro]

My dinners at home typically run about $10-20.
Two pounds of fresh veggies (at $2-4/pound), two pounds of meat ($3-5/pound), half a loaf of bread ($2), half gallon of milk ($2), sauces/spices/condiments ($1) and about two hours for prep/eat/clean time.

My previous comment was misinterpreted. We don't buy pizza and out-to-eat night because it's cheaper -- I put that in as an example of when we don't eat healthy to illustrate attention span. My points about money are regarding people who don't have the two hours to spend cooking per day, and can't afford $10/meal.

Re:Same as school exercise

[g0bshiTe]

Does not take time. You can eat very healthy by making Japanese Donburi dishes at home in about the time it takes to steam the rice start to finish for far less than I could make a store bought lasagna for.

Thin sliced meat (beef or pork), onion, green pepper, soy sauce, ginger, garlic, mushrooms, sweet mirin, and a bit of sake, serve over white rice with a fried egg on top and you're all set. It's tasty as hell, and very filling.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Anonymous Coward]

Prep time does is not the same as cook time. I grew up in a single parent home with 2 siblings. We could not afford to eat out or buy pre-cooked meals, but almost always ate nutritious and fresh food. And a lot of soup/stew.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Belial6]

Yes, it is sad how retarded children are today. Even worse is that it is often illegal to raise your children correctly as the government often mandates retarding your child's development.

Re:Same as school exercise

[jeffmeden]

OMG this is "informative" insofar as it informs the rest of us how sad life is for so many Americans... Cooking enough vegetables and whole grains for a small family is NOT out of reach to all but perhaps a very very small (and unfortunate) subset of our society. I admit, calories are generally cheaper to buy when they are of poorer quality (i.e. a 1000 calorie take-out pizza is probably cheaper than 1000 calories worth of long grain rice) but to say that you can't just get by on 500 calories of long grain rice instead (your body will thank you for feeling a little less "full") is complete garbage.

You are right that diet and exercise are key to living a full/fulfilling life, and in many cases are linked closely to personal success, but the real divide is not (and I don't think will ever be) the haves vs the have-nots, it is between the wills and the will-nots.

Re:Same as school exercise

[MattSausage]

Short of cooking up cinnamon rolls every day for breakfast and frying bologna in Crisco for lunch, then melting velveeta with bacon over nachos for dinner every single day. I'm pretty sure you would have to work pretty damn hard to match the fat/carb/calorie content per ounce of food at home as you get with chicken mcnuggets or cereal or pizza.

Re:Same as school exercise

[vlm]

Yeah. All for the opportunity cost of one of those parents being at home to cook three square meals a day.

Learn to cook. That is just so wrong.

Here's what I do. Make about 10 good meals at once on a weekend or whenever the cooking bug bites me. Shove in freezer. Thru the work week, remove from freezer and place in fridge in the morning, dump contents in frying pan, microwave, or whatever appropriate. Apply a bottled sauce from the fridge, or appropriate spices from spice rack, and eat in about 5 to 10 minutes. I can make healthy tasty prepared sorta gourmet frozen "real food" faster than I can heat up an icky expensive TV dinner.

So, I seared the surface of small chunks of beef sirloin on a smoking hot stainless steel pan for flavor, enough to make 3 batches of stew, then deglazed with cheap whiskey, then rebagged about half a bag of freshly chopped cheap vegetables with about a third of the meat, freeze in bags or tupperware. Stock 3 little cans/boxes of soup stock (veg or beef) in the pantry. In the morning next week, whip out ye olde slow cooker, dump in one bag, pour soup stock over the top, plug in slow cooker and come home to fantastic stew.

Take everything you need for a decent stir fry, bag and freeze. Next work night dump contents of bag into pan with a decent real oil, saute, dump from teriyaki sauce from a bottle in the fridge into the pan, and eat.

I also take great joy in cooking about 10 pound of lasagna and freezing a zillion servings. I made this one with grilled strips of zucchini instead of pasta and it was unbelievable.

Take plastic bag. Insert raw chicken parts. Parts is parts, right? Well chose whatever you like the most. Pour in a little marinade, some spices. Freeze for "awhile" maybe weeks. Come home from work, light gas grill on low, toss chicken parts on grill, flip occasionally while reading mail, surfing /. on the ipad, whatever. Serve with a spicy sauce from the fridge. You know what tastes good on chicken? Taco sauce. Weird but true. I never use barbeque sauce anymore since I discovered the miracle of taco sauce.

I like to make this homemade breakfast hash outta all kinds of vegetables, fresh mushrooms, some breakfast sausages, some nuts, and a bit of diced potatoe, I can saute that and drop some maple syrup on it and eat it, and its the breakfast of the gods, and it takes me about 10 minutes from think about it to all done eating, actually quicker than driving to mcdonalds and waiting in line.

You'd be amazed what you can do with frozen mystery meat philly cheesesteak product, breakfast sausages, the entire freaking produce aisle, etc.

Take a nice slab of cod, drizzle some lime juice on it (not too much) some pepper, some spices, I like it hot, whatever floats your boat. Freeze it. Don't make one batch, make 4 batches so you can eat it once a week for a month without any prep time. During the week, you toss that stuff in the steamer appliance (like $25 at walmart) set the timer for about a half hour and go do laundry or take a dump or whatever else you do after work other than eat and sleep. Amazing steamed fish for like 5 minutes work during the week. Uses medium salsa out of a jar as a dressing instead of boring tartar sauce, because face it, fish is boring without a little heat and spice.

Homemade kabobs freeze nicely and grill quickly. I like shrimp kabobs and dip them in salsa instead of that weird cocktail sauce. I have a "thing" for beef tenderloin kabobs with shitake mushrooms and bell pepper disks. To each their own, I guess.

I also like mix ins. You know whats boring as heck? Pasta and sauce. You know whats yummy? Pasta and sauce, and sliced grilled hot italian sausages with a bunch of sliced (sliced and frozen by me) vegetables mixed into the sauce and some extra spices sprinkled on the top, at least parsley but a little oregano helps. And maybe some freshly grated cheese (much cheaper if you grate it yourself) This goes double for

Re:Same as school exercise

[Anonymous Coward]

If that were true, you would have been able to refute his specific points, and would have done so. You didn't, because you couldn't, because you are lying.

Re:Same as school exercise

[g0bshiTe]

I 90% of my grocery shopping at local Asian stores. I get fresh veggies and meats way cheaper than at my local grocery chain. I can feed 3 people healthy dishes every night for less than $60 a week. Veggies are usually fresher than at my local chain store as well. Ex: green bell peppers at local Asian mart, 2 for $1.50, at local chain store $3.00 for 2. Not to mention meats are far cheaper there as well. People can complain it's "dodgy", well there are health standards and inspections.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Ctrl V]

Many people do not know how to cook interesting food for cheap. Yes, it's something that they should learn, but it is entirely as much of a skill as algebra. It takes time to develop, is not really taught in schools, and if not taught at home is going to require a lot of self-motivation to pick up.

couldn't agree more. my attempt at learning found some good info online.

my wife makes fun of me, but I love this site: http://www.hillbillyhousewife.com/

Re:Same as school exercise

[g0bshiTe]

Mmmm, chicken donburi, I'm coming to your house for dinner. Throw an egg in and I'm there.

Re:Same as school exercise

[jerpyro]

Thumbs up to you, sir.

I do have that time. Both my wife and I cook *really* well, and we make a family event out of meal preparation to try to pass those skills on to our children. I wish that more people could have the luxury of having one parent stay home, and similarly I hope that their kids have access to the kinds of meals we provide. For single parents or families where both parents work multiple jobs, that may not be an option.

I think there could be a real benefit to providing this sort of training to families in lower-income neighborhoods at community centers and such, but until that's done -- I suspect there will be a division in the "can provide healthy food" vs "can't provide healthy food" social barriers.

Re:Same as school exercise

[netsavior]

I spend about 3 dollars a person to make healthy and delicious food for my family. It IS super cheap, but you know, I interact with $500,000 (probably a low estimate) worth of stuff that lots of people don't have, in order to make it.
I have a comfortable house, functioning appliances, a full kitchen, a car, access to a grocery store, time to drive there weekly so I can keep fresh produce, internet access to find new and interesting things to cook, the correct pots, pans, knives, cutting boards, implements, etc to cook. I enjoyed a middle class upbringing, wherein my mother cooked, and demystified cooking. I have only one job, which has only occasional overtime needs, and that one job is enough for my household, freeing up more time. I don't work manual labor, so I don't need a heavy caloric load (try loading a truck on rice and lean chicken... you'll need to eat 9 meals a day)

Re:Same as school exercise

[g0bshiTe]

We usually eat rice with each meal, we make one more bowl of rice than we will eat and it gets set aside for my daughters breakfast, in the morning she will take that rice and in less than 5 minutes whip herself up some fried rice using an egg, some soy sauce and whatever veggies she can get, usually napa or chinese cabbage, it's surprisingly good too. Her fried rice rivals our local Chinese take out.

Re:Same as school exercise

[justdiver]

"There often isn't a single grocery store in low-income neighborhoods" is exactly right. Detroit is a perfect example. There is something called an "urban desert" going on in Detroit. There are plenty of "shelf goods" stores. These stores have the grains and breads, cereals and noodles and plenty of canned veggies but you just try and find a store in Detroit that has more than a few bananas in their "produce" section. Aside from Eastern Market which is far from accessible for many Detroiters you'd be hard pressed to do so. You almost certainly have to drive into one of the suburbs to find a store offering fresh tomatoes or cucumbers. Some Detroiters have gone so far as to create urban-gardens where a whole neighborhood will pitch in working on a small plot garden. They share the responsibility of working the garden and share the produce it provides.

Re:Same as school exercise

[mdarksbane]

I guess I should say - much good food takes time to cook. More importantly, though, there is a strong impression that good food takes a long time to cook, *and* cooking good food quickly is very much a different skillset and set of recipes from just being able to cook at all.

Really, how many cooking shows are showing you stuff that you can throw together in five minutes from frozen/canned food and then leave cooking all day? It's all stuff that looks pretty and takes real time to make.

Re:Same as school exercise

[GospelHead821]

Maybe a lot has changed in the last 15 years but when I was in middle school and high school, cooking dinner a couple of nights every week was one of my chores. In fact, I can look back and cite that as the spark that ignited my passion for cooking and nutrition. It's a chore that a middle-school student can handle and will provide them with the foundation of the very skills that some posters are lamenting that many adults don't have.

I did, in fact, get burned once. It wasn't a hot pot or pan but the toaster of all things. It had jammed and because I had left it unsupervised, it had caught fire. I panicked and touched it to get it out from underneath the cabinets. I called 911 and they walked me through safely extinguishing the toaster fire. There was a follow-up call about 15 minutes later to make sure everything was okay. But was there any action from CPS? As far as I know, not a whisper.

One of my long-term goals is to become the Fred Rogers or the Bill Nye of food television. As with many things, I think that one of the keys to introducing good nutrition and an enthusiasm for preparing one's own food is to begin at an early age.

Re:Same as school exercise

[g0bshiTe]

My kid has been cooking since she was 6. I've let her use knives to cut veggies and taught her how to slice meat. Cooking is a skill that is learned. Kids in other countries are using machetes at age 6 to chop wood and in some places they are hunting for food at that age. There is a reason people take the easy way out and don't cook. I've also met a lot of people that aren't capable of cooking. I guess those will be the first ones to go if society ever collapsed as they would no longer be able to eat.

Re:Same as school exercise

[thomasw_lrd]

Flame much? My wife and I both work and make a pretty decent income. We also have 7 kids. We don't have to work more than one job to provide for our family. In fact, if it wasn't for my wife liking new things (we have two cars both with payments). She wouldn't have to work at all. Last year we made almost $90,000, and we live pretty comfortably.
Here's an idea. Go to school, get an education, and get a good job. But don't get a bullshit degree like english or biology. Get something useful like a nursing degree. You can get an lpn degree in about a year, and get a decent job. Go on and get a RN degree while working with your lpn. Get an even better job. Then you can get you're BSN online in most cases. Get an even better job then. Last and not least, go on and get an MSN degree. Again almost all online. Now you're making in the top 20% of income earners in the country. It's hard to do, but can be done. Look at my wife. She did it. While doing all the housework, and taking care of our children. I worked full time and took classes part-time. It can be done.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Sancho]

Ah, sorry then. I assumed that the two were related. Starvation is a global and historical problem. It may be something that most of the developed world hasn't had to struggle with for a while, but it's nothing new.

My point stands, though. "Health food" (food marketed as healthy) may be pretty expensive, but "healthy food" isn't. Some of the cheapest ways to prepare food is from scratch with very-low processed materials (not quite raw, but about as raw as you get for cooking.)

Now if you're talking about having good, balanced diets, you may well be right. But for a given food, time+raw materials will beat out processed foods in terms of cost almost any day, so if you can't afford that, you aren't worrying about the healthiness of the food.

Re:Same as school exercise

[jerpyro]

Another great comment -- if I had mod points I'd give you a boost.

Yes it may be the class division is as you say -- education/prioritization rather than income level.
But the fact remains that there are kids that will grow up with the advantage of a good diet, and those that won't. And maybe it goes back to "do the parents know what they're doing" as always -- but I find it unfortunate that very few people realize how important a balanced diet is to the development of their children.

Re:Same as school exercise

[0racle]

Rice and bread are terrible for you.

[citation_needed]

You're going to need to back that up. Throughout most human history and quite frankly most of the world now, people lived on basically just that.

Difficulty: Gluten is not the devil.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Anonymous Coward]

I think Rakishi meant spend half an hour every three days cooking a triple-size meal (healthy!) then fridge it. You can use the microwave to reheat it in 2-3 minutes. The time investment thus amortizes nicely to 15 minutes/day for good food.

Pay attention.

Re:Same as school exercise

[jeffmeden]

Yeah. All for the opportunity cost of one of those parents being at home to cook three square meals a day.

It is very, very important for people to read and understand the significance of this comment.

Many folks from the "middle"-class on up simply don't understand what life is like for single parents, or even or dual parents who must work multiple jobs to pay the bills.

Your tale is as sad as it is true. The price of single parenthood or dual-(over)working parenthood is very high indeed (makes you wonder why so many are eager to have kids without any sort of stable 2 parent household). Aside from that, there is a big difference between "lazy" (perhaps defined by you as how many hours/week are spent performing labor for money) and "non industrious" which is an unwillingness to recognize the difference between something like eating right and exercising, and eating poorly and allowing the body to deteriorate (which has huge external costs.)

The problem is that these really easy choices, like 1500 calories of fast food for $4.99 available at the corner on the way home from work, are just too hard to resist for so many people in that situation. I still have doubts that for all but a few people in that situation, that they really said "i literally have no time at all in my week to procure or prepare good food for me or my family" and did not instead say "wow how easy was that, i just got dinner taken care of in 5 minutes and it was cheap, too. now i can go home and enjoy some [insert xyz distraction] with my family."

Food (of all varieties) is SO very abundant in the US that excuses like "it was too hard to find, too expensive, or too time consuming" are really quite pathetic. "It was too easy to choose the (probably unhealthy) alternative" is something I will believe without a doubt.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Unoriginal_Nickname]

Actually I'm pretty sure Rakishi meant to make a classist diatribe that calls lazy people too stupid to use refrigerators and microwaves.

Guess I wasn't paying enough attention!

Re:Same as school exercise

[Anonymous Coward]

and 1 combo meal will cost more than that.

I can get a burger for 60 cents. That will feed me for today. I'll worry about tomorrow tomorrow.

Re:Same as school exercise

[thomasw_lrd]

But I also agree with something another poster said. Our public schools/society fail to teach us what should be considered basic life skills. No one should walk away from school not knowing basic homemaking (cooking and cleaning), budgeting (balancing a checkbook and living within your means), and basic mechanical skills (car care/maintenance, home care/maintenance). And these are lessons that should start early in education.

This is one point where our school system really fails. Instead of teaching another year of US history to WWII, take that time and teach some mandatory life skills classes in the at least early high school.

Re:Same as school exercise

[stephathome]

I'd say give all kids some form of Home Ec, and have it include basic repairs around the home as well as cooking.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Anonymous Coward]

Not quite. I think he was calling *you* ignorant for not thinking of alternatives to a parent having to stay home to cook all three meals.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Beardo the Bearded]

My wife and I cook dinner every night and everyone gets leftovers the next day.

We've got a collection of recipes that kids like (i.e. the little fuckers will actually EAT it) that doesn't take fifty ingredients (i.e. Where TF do you buy saffron-infused avocado oil?) that won't bore the adults (i.e. No. We are not having pasta with tomato soup... again.) and can be on the table 30 minutes after we get home.

We've had a lot of luck with Happy Herbivore and Everyday Happy Herbivore (we eat vegan) but I'm sure there are a lot of meat-based cookbooks that let you get the food plated in half an hour. You can meatize a recipe by swtiching chicken for tofu. allrecipes is a good choice.

This week we're having Pad Thai, tofu "crab cakes", a Red Lentil Dhal, Etheopian Stew, and a couple of others I don't remember.

Groceries for a family of four are running about $100 a week.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Beardo the Bearded]

Right, my wife and I working full time have NO IDEA of how to cook.

Really, are you trolling or just the dumbest person alive?

Re:Same as school exercise

[PRMan]

We need to realize that cooking, cleaning, shopping, and budgetting aren't things that people just know

Seriously. Our church is doing Dave Ramsey's stuff right now and I'm blown away by how crowded it is. Many people in the room don't have any idea how to budget or manage money at all. It's shocking.

Re:Same as school exercise

[jeffmeden]

Go further than that.

Check out the "produce" section in a lower-income neighborhood's grocery stores. Chances it's pretty small and what food is there is wilty and not appetizing-looking. Now go look at the produce section in an upscale chain like Whole Foods or Central Market; produce kept fresh-looking, wilted stuff quickly taken away, perky looking un-bruised fruits and vegetables.

It's not just a "smarts" thing. If I were looking to buy apples or bananas, and all the apples in the bin were bruised and scrawny looking and the bananas looked like they'd been left to rot, I'd probably skip the produce section too.

You are right, but ask yourself this (this is not baiting, I want an honest answer:) Why is it that low income grocery stores have produce that wilts on the shelf, and otherwise have no incentive to offer a significant quantity? Food procurement, transport, refrigeration, etc. is not any different for those businesses than for places like Wal-Mart or the HUGE variety of regional grocery chains (leave Whole Foods or Central Market out of the discussion) that even (gasp) have locations in or near your local "low income zone" and manage to offer decent quality produce...

Re:Same as school exercise

[Anonymous Coward]

Most of the tech writers at my work have English degrees. Their pay is pretty close to developer pay. Rather than get a certain degree, people should figure out what they want to do to make money, then get the education and experience required to get there. Saying no one should get a liberal arts degree is as foolish as saying that everyone with an Engineering degree makes lots of money.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Beardo the Bearded]

If you want an even easier and faster bread recipe and you have a can of beer:

Beer bread:
3C self-rising flour*
1 can (355mL) beer
3T sugar

*or 3 c flour, 3T baking powder, 3t salt

Mix. Put in pan or in a ball. Put in 350F oven for 45 minutes.

No rising time. Just bread.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Unkl_Shvelven]

A bread maker (along with just about every other small kitchen appliance) costs $5 at Goodwill.

Re:Same as school exercise

[jeffmeden]

You must not have seen the aisle (in some stores two aisles) of frozen, low sodium, low fat, low sugar, high protein meals available (under brand names like healthy choice or lean cuisine) for often a price premium of only 20-25% over the standard fare. If the meals that were just a little bit cheaper, or perhaps just a little bit better tasting (thanks to the salt, fat, and sugar) are picked instead, whose fault is that?

Re:Same as school exercise

[Anonymous Coward]

Most rice doesn't have guten, and gluten most certainly is the devil if you happen to have Celiac disease. But in that case you're making your meals from ingredients anyway since the selection of truly gluten-free (no cross-contamination) foods is pathetic.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Unoriginal_Nickname]

Yes, that's right. The alternative to my thesis, of course, is that poor, obese people must simply be too lazy to want to be rich and athletic.

We are saying the same things, but I don't think you understand what it means.

Re:Same as school exercise

[moderatorrater]

Does eating vegan tend to increase your costs?

Re:Same as school exercise

[cheekyjohnson]

But it's for the children! What if a child gets hurt somehow? We mustn't allow them to do anything!

Re:Same as school exercise

[daem0n1x]

How the fuck are kids idle? I can't get mine to sit still for 2 minutes!

I can't imagine how kids get lazy and fat without some serious encouragement by their parents.

Take them out to play. Kids are naturally energetic and imaginative. You don't even need to do anything, they'll take care of the exercise for you.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Anonymous Coward]

As spoken by someone who doesn't have to work for a living, which is hard enough when both parents do, and raise kids.

My hats off to any single parent who is really trying... If your not shame on you but some people need to take that silver spoon out of there mouth and put it where everything else is..

Re:Same as school exercise

[Guppy06]

Even STEM classes, the darlings of public education, are facing budget cuts. Funding home ec simply isn't going to happen, let alone make it more popular with boys.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously. Our church is doing Dave Ramsey's stuff right now and I'm blown away by how crowded it is. Many people in the room don't have any idea how to budget or manage money at all. It's shocking.

I'm not at all surprised. The US economy is based on separating fools from their money. This isn't a recent development; it started with the post WW2 boom and the rise of the "consumer society". The US educational system does a horrible job of teaching kids how to manage their finances, and now we have multiple generations who never learned basic money management.

Re:Same as school exercise

[andydouble07]

Yeah, all these people just need to work 9 to 5 like you and your wife, and everything would be a lot easier. It's a little more complicated when a couple has four part-time jobs between them, at all hours of the day/night, and have small children which require supervision. If only they were as "smart as you and could take their 9-5 jobs for granted."

Re:Same as school exercise

[ifiwereasculptor]

No. Making it interesting, though, does.

Re:Same as school exercise

[vlm]

You're going to need to back that up. Throughout most human history ... people lived on basically just that.

My religious (lack of ) beliefs implies, No They Didn't. Its a fundamental creationist vs evolutionist argument, applied to food history.

If the world was created recently in 4000 BC by god and you define "people" as exclusively european/middle eastern Jews/Christians and ignore the rest of the world, then yes, you are technically correct within that hyper restricted viewpoint. That's a pretty big if, but if your church says so, then you're stuck believing it.

On the other hand, if you agree with pretty much any of the research of archeologists then absolutely not, our species has only spent a microscopic fraction of its existence eating junk food like that.

The human digestive system is pretty tough and can tolerate quite a bit of abuse. Doesn't mean pushing its limits is a wise lifestyle choice.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Unoriginal_Nickname]

A part of the reason these meals are so unhealthy is that they are deficient in certain nutrients our bodies require in order to regulate food intake. Lean Cuisine is better for you than Hungry-Man, sure, but a .22 to the head is healthier for you than a rifled slug.

Re:Same as school exercise

[jeffmeden]

A multi-vitamin and perhaps some OTHER form of food on a semi-daily basis (someone who tried to eat nothing but frozen meals would, admittedly, either go nuts or die) is a pretty good idea, too; I kind of hoped that went without saying (a foolish assumption, I know.) For this, the good Lord gave us Subway Sandwiches...

Re:Same as school exercise

[n30na]

This. So much this. And if you're poor enough, even executing that can be difficult. The cheapest fast food can offer seems to consistently be cheaper than most any meal I know how to cook.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Rakishi]

As the AC said, I was calling you specifically an idiot. Most every non-fat poor family I knew, including my own, was perfectly able to use a refrigerator and microwave. So does everyone else I know at work who prefers not to spend $15/day on lunch.

And congratulations on finally getting the point, the reason these people eat such crappy food isn't because they're poor or busy. It's because they're horribly lazy. That's the whole point. It's cheaper to cook your own food and it only take a couple hours a week to do. Yet these people don't do so.

Guess I wasn't paying enough attention!

Good thing you agree.

Re:Same as school exercise

[vlm]

Most rice doesn't have guten, and gluten most certainly is the devil if you happen to have Celiac disease. But in that case you're making your meals from ingredients anyway since the selection of truly gluten-free (no cross-contamination) foods is pathetic.

After my son was diagnosed the first shopping trip was more than a little weird. So, we're eating bottled water and frito corn chips this week? After awhile, we figured out how to cook, we eat like kings now, and we're apparently doing something right because he made a full recovery...

Our meals seemed to end up in common cause with the "low carb" people. Steaks and roasts and stuff. My red meat consumption tripled and my cholesterol blood tests and blood pressure both improved quite a bit, which supposedly is normal with the low carb people. Carbs seem to be the cause of many health problems... Also we eat a lot of "asian style" stuff, a pan full of frying veggies and a little meat/seafood and some sauce. Quotes on "asian style" because most asian sauces like soy sauce are made with wheat (strange but true, look it up) so we have to improvise...

Re:Same as school exercise

[Unoriginal_Nickname]

This advice works great right up until the new grads reduce the clearing wage in [x] fad trade/technical diploma. This is what happened to make english and biology "bullshit degrees" after all.

Why discriminate though? Every undergraduate degree is bullshit. Outside of Engineering and BFA you aren't going to get hired to do anything close to what you actually studied unless you either have a strong jaw or a rich dad.

Re:Same as school exercise

[n30na]

I think this discussion is more about getting KIDS decent meals, and also it's really all quite circumstantial. You imply that you have a car, so that makes it easier. Getting home by 6-6:30 isn't all that late, so that makes it easier. You must not have a job that leaves you too drained to cook, so that makes it easier.

Re:Same as school exercise

[s0nicfreak]

"People must work 3 fucking jobs just to make ends meet"

Bullshit. They may need 3 jobs to keep up with the Jonses and buy every luxury item known to man, but if you live frugally, even a part time minimum wage job is enough to pay for what you NEED.

When you have kids and a 2 parent house, having 1 parent stay home is actually cheaper than having both work. If both work you must pay for childcare, 2 cars, upkeep and gas for those 2 cars, work clothes, etc. etc. etc. When you have kids and a single-parent house, it is cheaper to work as little as possible.

I've been a single parent, and I've been a parent in a 2-working-parent household, and now I'm staying at home with the time to cook everything from scratch. Never mind the fact that even when I worked, eating a raw diet was an option.

Re:Same as school exercise

[ediron2]

On what planet are you that Schwann's is a cheap way to feed a family?

Re:Same as school exercise

[n30na]

I agree with most of your points, but I will say that if things are tight enough, buying much more than a week's food at a time just isn't possible. The money isn't there.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're talking written history, then, yes, we've mostly eaten grains of one sort or another. Agriculture is about 10,000 years old.

If you're talking evolution and our hunter / gatherer roots, then grains and dairy are out and you're looking at fruits, veggies, and meat.

Re:Same as school exercise

[n30na]

60 cents? wow. best I can do around here is 99, though it still satisfies your point, even taking into account that I need about 3 to get anywhere near enough food.

Re:Same as school exercise

[s0nicfreak]

People have to go grocery shopping either way. It takes no more time to go to the fruit and vegetable isle than it does to go to the TV-dinner isle - heck, the fruit and vegetable isle is usually closer to the door and therefore faster! - and while 10 for $10 seems like a deal, both serving and nutrient wise, the fruit and vegetable isle is cheaper. The majority of stuff in the fruit and vegetable isle can be eaten as-is or after a kid peals them, you don't even have to wait for microwave time.

Unless you're suggesting that these time-pressed families are getting fast food for every single meal?

Re:Same as school exercise

[Anonymous Coward]

Disagree. I've got my associates in computer science and I've had no problems finding a bunch of jobs that were both interesting and pay well. All with little to no experience. Same with my wife. They can't hire enough rns to fulfill demand at the hospital. She's never had a problem finding a job.

Granted we live in a smaller metro area, so that might help. Or maybe were just willing to work a little harder to make good mo.et.

Re:Same as school exercise

[pthreadunixman]

I don't know why this is such a mystery to everyone. Exercise is unpleasant. If exercise is pleasant to you, then whatever you're doing is not exercise.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Beardo the Bearded]

Nope, it's probably about the same cost as omnivore. We don't buy meat, obviously, but we make that up with tofus, odd flours, and lots more fruits and veggies. Tofu is about $3 a pound, but it's all "lean", and that subs in for all kinds of meats. There's a yummy recipe for bourbon chicken that we use regularly, and we just sub in a brick of tofu for the chicken. Soy milk is one of the bigger cost increases -- a 2L container is about $5 vs. about $2 for cow, and we go through 4 of those a week. (There aren't bigger jugs or we'd get those.)

But then, if we want to make "crab" cakes, it's just made from tofu so it's not $12 a pound for crab / wait for a sale. On the other hand, if I did eat seafood I'd have my SW licence so I could just go pick up crabs when I go diving. Last night dive, we encountered a foot-diameter Puget Sound crab (not including legs) and we played with her for a while. Strong fucker, literally holding on for dear life against the rocks. Anyway, that would have been dinner for free. ($3000 worth of diving gear, training, and air notwithstanding.)

Re:Same as school exercise

[Unoriginal_Nickname]

13% of Americans are called the "working poor." These are often single parent retail workers who need to work several jobs in order to survive. When people talk about poor people who do not have the time or energy to prepare meals, we are talking about these people. We are not talking about your family.

Since subtlety is obviously lost on someone with your vast intellect, let me be clear: you are a terrible person and you have no idea what you are talking about.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Unoriginal_Nickname]

CS degree definitely counts as engineering (for employability, at least until SE accreditation is taken seriously.) RN is a professional degree.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Unoriginal_Nickname]

haha. Yeah, marketing is a big part of the reason too.

Re:Same as school exercise

[s0nicfreak]

Real bread costs $3 - $4 where I live (in a suburb of Chicago). You can get some "bread" which is mostly high fructose corn syrup for $1 per loaf, though. I get 25lb bags of flour for $8. Now I don't know how much lb of flour goes into a loaf, but I buy a bag every 2 or 3 months vs when I was buying bread I would get a loaf every 1 - 2 weeks (6 person family). I got a bunch of yeast off Amazon for $8 nearly a year ago and have not needed to buy more yet. My electricity bill did not rise noticeably when I started making my own bread. It takes about 5 minutes to put the ingredients in the breadmaker. The breadmaker cost $30. If your electricity is really so expensive for you, you could always hand-mix and bake in a gas or wood stove (along with something else that needs to cook/bake to save even with that), which would take an additional 10 - 20 minutes of your time.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Anonymous Coward]

Veggies are cheap, often under $1/lb.
Rice is less than $0.25/lb
Chicken Breasts can often be found for under $2.00/lb

Prices and availability vary heavily based on geography. I have lived in places where the local "grocery store" was little more than a convenience store - lots of boxed/canned/frozen goods and basically nothing even remotely fresh. I have also lived places where there were things resembling fresh food, but for exorbitant prices. Your flippant statement that $6 can get you a pile of fresh food is just plain ignorant.

can be made in 35 minutes with only around 15 minutes of kitchen time.

Don't forget the time spent getting to and from the grocery store... Which can be substantial, if you don't live near a grocery store and you're reliant on public transportation.

And instead of spending $3-$4 on a loaf of bread, bake your own loaf of light wheat bread for around $0.25.

Again, that's assuming you've got access to the ingredients - flour, yeast, whatever. If you've got a grocery store, those are easy to get your hands on. If you're shopping out of a Quick-E-Mart - not so much.

And, again, the time investment is non-trivial.

With a bread machine, the work is trivial and the bread is better than store bought.

If you're in a position to buy a bread machine, you've probably moved outside the category of "can't afford to feed my kids right".

Re:Same as school exercise

[dkleinsc]

This is definitely a bigger problem than just Detroit. It's big enough, in fact, that the USDA did a national survey of it:
http://www.ers.usda.gov/data/fooddesert/fooddesert.html

(Yes, I know, government statistics may be fabricated, but there's very little reason for them to do so here)

Re:Same as school exercise

[Anonymous Coward]

In those cases "low sodium" is just a relative thing, they still have more salt in them than should be in any meal.

Re:Same as school exercise

[L3370]

Great post.Those that struggle the resources need only look to the foods and dishes created by the poor cultures of the world. Every civilization and society had a poor class that used the nasty bits as the main course. Re-learn some of those traditional dishes, and expose your kids to it at an early age!...before they develop a taste for pure sweets and fats.

The poor cooked great food because THEY HAD TO. You don't need cooking skills or fine ingredients to make a filet mignon taste good. But if a meal of beef tendon and coagulated pork blood in soup can be made palatable, you KNOW that stuff is gonna be delicious.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for the reference, I'm going to get that Everyday Happy Herbivore - we eat seafood but not much. We're also a family of 4 but we're spending more on groceries than you; mostly we're cooking every night. Our Costco does have cases of soy milk which bring that cost down.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Anonymous Coward]

Well maybe they should've put the dick down & not had kids until they had the means, for christ sake.

They're not lazy, they're just fucking stupid. And now they're breeding a whole handful of dumbasses too.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Ihmhi]

Meat and animal products (milk, cheese, etc.) are actually pretty damn expensive nowdays. Not as bad as they were a few years ago ($10 for a pound of mozzarella!!!), but still pretty bad.

You just have to be careful about the health concerns around veganism and all.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Anonymous Coward]

We both work, and yet we never eat out more than once a week. I make the kids smoothies, oatmeal or cereal for breakfast, pancakes or eggs on the weekends. We pack the kids' lunches every morning & my wife cooks something healthy every night. (I do the dishes.) You can do it with two people working, but it would be very hard if you were a single parent. It's a pain in the ass, but so are a lot of things, you just do it anyway.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Ihmhi]

I don't know what the solution is completely

Here's a couple protips.

First, when you make stuff... make a lot. I'm gonna leave out a lot of important prep details here, but let's say you want to have chicken breasts for your wife and son. Buy a package of 8. Get 'em all cooked up real good and then go from there. First night, you'd have 3 of them grilled maybe. Second night, add in a bit of mozzarella and tomato sauce and have some chicken Parmesan. Third night, dice the remaining two breasts, spread over greens and have chicken caesar salad.

Think less about meals and more about doing ingredients in batches that can be used to make a bunch of meals. Having a plan is helpful as well.

Oh, and P.S. no matter how healthy you eat, make sure to order out at least once a week if you can afford it. Go for broke, let the kids eat as much pizza as they want on Saturday nights and whatnot. It might be expensive but unless you're down to nada in your bank account then make sure to set aside some money so you can have the night off from cooking AND treat the family.

I've been up like 28 hours so this is probably kinda rambly, but I hope I've given you an insight or provided something useful.

Re:Same as school exercise

[0racle]

Being pedantic doesn't make you right. Believing that you have some better insight into things because the person who challenged your assertions must be religious doesn't make you right. Ignoring that I quoted Rice along with wheat and your ignoring that trying to make it like I do not know of the world outside of European and Semitic areas doesn't make you right. These are not citations.

Most of human history, in basically every way except raw time, occurred after agriculture.

So, for the armchair anthropologist, since the dawn of major civilizations built around farming after giving up our hunter/gatherer roots, which covers the lives of most humans that have lived and died on this planet, grains such as wheat and rice have fed and continued to feed, most people.

So once again, I ask you to back up your claim that wheat and rice are 'horrible' for you, since nothing you said does.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Belial6]

When my family of 3 goes to McDonald's, we either order 6 double cheeseburgers and 2 larger drinks for a total of $8. ($6 in food) or we order. Other times we will order a 20 piece chicken nugget pack at $5 and 2 double cheeseburgers at $2 for a total of $7 in food. When we eat pizza, we generally buy a large pizza from Little Ceasers at $5. So, cheap fast food for our family of 3 is $5-$8. This kind of ordering also makes the meals dramatically more healthy. The two real problems with fast food are the french fries and Cola since they are both just sugar.

Talking to my wife who does most of our grocery shopping, she confirms your price on vegetables with a nice verity of choices. If you go up to $1.50, the choices expand dramatically. On the chicken, you are too low though. $1.99 is going to be for cheap whole fryers. That means that almost a 3rd of the per pound price is going to be for inedible parts of the chicken, like bone. While having vegetables is certainly important, it isn't important to get every type of food in every meal. While I wouldn't suggest people eat no vegetables, your home cooked meal example is not significantly healthier than my meal at McDonald's example. They are close enough that how the meal at home is prepared could put it above or below the nutritional level of the McDonald's meal.

Price wise it is a wash. Unless you start looking at incredibly unhealthy foods like rice or pasta, the cost of cooking at home is close enough that the claim of home cooking being cheaper is a myth.

That being said, even at a wash in price, that leaves it as an issue of whether people want to make the effort to eat healthy. Unfortunately, the problem gets escalated by the fact that very few people are willing to have honest discussions about healthy diet, and even worse, healthy weight. For example, my "healthy weight" as defined by our government/insurance/medical industries is between approximately 3% and -15% body fat. Yep. That's right. Negative body fat. Our experts are telling people that they are obese at 8% body fat, and that the solution is to switch to a 90% sugar diet.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Chris Mattern]

The price of single parenthood or dual-(over)working parenthood is very high indeed (makes you wonder why so many are eager to have kids without any sort of stable 2 parent household).

It used to be considered a bad thing to have children outside of a stable two parent household. But nowadays we are much more enlightened and know that holding such opinions is horribly self-righteous and narrow-minded.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Anonymous Coward]

This is one point where our school system really fails. Instead of teaching another year of US history to WWII, take that time and teach some mandatory life skills classes in the at least early high school.

My daughter's middle school has Home Ec ( called something else now) as an elective, I'm sure many others do too.

Re:Same as school exercise

[s0nicfreak]

Cancel their cable for a month?

Re:Same as school exercise

[s0nicfreak]

It costs my family of 6 $25 to have 1 meal at McDonalds, and we eat 3 meals a day. In a month where we eat no home-grown food and no fast food, we spend $460 on groceries - which comes out to less than $6 per meal. If we all ate meat, to spend $6 on a trip to our local McDonalds would mean we could each eat half a single hamburger, not including tax.

Re:Same as school exercise

[s0nicfreak]

Oops - we could each eat a single hamburger, not including tax. If we take tax into account, 2 people would have to share a hamburger.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Anonymous Coward]

Many folks from the "middle"-class on up simply don't understand what life is like for single parents, or even or dual parents who must work multiple jobs to pay the bills.

Here's an idea. If you can't properly care for a child, don't have one.

Re:Same as school exercise

[narcc]

Our church is doing Dave Ramsey's stuff right now and I'm blown away by how crowded it is. Many people in the room don't have any idea how to budget or manage money at all.

Hard to squeeze that 10% tithe out of 'em when they can't properly manage their finances, eh?

Re:Same as school exercise

[powerlinekid]

And what are you to do when everything is fine, you already have a kid and then things go to shit? You can't have a 15th trimester abortion. Or are you advocating for the couple from "Idiocracy" whom wait until everything is just perfect to have a child only to realize that it never will be except for a tiny fraction of the population.

Shit happens, you deal with it. I am a middle class single father and yes it is hard but you make it work because you have to. You try your best, be a good parent, give your children an understanding of why you don't spoil the crap out of them and make the best out of life. The only thing I regret is that when things are so hectic and haphazard it is very difficult to put in the effort to make them less so in the future. Essentially, you have to focus on the present so a future exists, which can be short sighted.

Re:Same as school exercise

[DaveGod]

As a parent of young children in a single-income household, honestly I see the next class division between those who can afford to feed their kids healthy foods and those who are too lazy or stupid to cook simple meals.

There, I fixed that for you.

True, but very harsh. Bringing up kids is tiring and few can afford to have one parent stay at home - parenting is itself a job and for most it is in addition to a paid one. On maybe 4 hours of broken sleep if you have a couple of young ones.

Also, cooking cheap healthy meals is one thing, meals that kids will eat is another. I'd actually say cost isn't all that much driving what kids are eating. They tend to like high energy, simple flavours and simple textures. As it happens, a lot of cheap, easy to cook "food" is just that. If price was what mattered folks would be going vegan.

Most kids will eat healthy, simple foods like yogurt, bananas, beans, eggs and so on. But getting a good mixed diet requires complex flavours and textures and that's not what kids are programmed for. FWIW, mushing it up and neutralising the complexity works well, for example mashed potatoes are as popular as fries, a kid who won't go near fresh fruit may well pester you for fruit smoothies.

Also, if there's one thing I've learned from having nephews: refined sugar is basically a drug.

Re:Same as school exercise

[kamapuaa]

A person has to eat 2000-3000 calories a day (depending on various factors, of course). A gallon of whole milk is a day's worth of calories for $2-$3 and the macronutrient breakdown is just about perfect. A pound of meat is half a day's calories and can easily be found for less than $5. A dozen eggs are a half or a third of a day's calories for less than $2. It goes on and on...meat and milk products are actually quite cheap. The expensive part is extravagant flavorings, and then fruits and vegetables. Grains are even cheaper but provide few micronutrients and shit macronutrients.

I hate to be an asshole, but raising a kid as a vegan is irresponsible - there are so many nutrients and macronutrients that are just not a part of a vegan diet, or are of poor quality/low quantity in a vegan diet. Once the kid is an adult let them make stupid decisions about their diet & health. Doing that to a growing child is just a terrible thing to do. At the least, have them drink some milk.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Golddess]

That would make more sense than how I'd originally parsed it... which was to use the microwave to cook* that chicken/rice/veggie meal, rather than simply to reheat a portion of it that had been cooked and stored in the fridge/freezer.

*Maybe I've just got a crappy microwave, but I can't imagine that coming out very well.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Volguus Zildrohar]

Bread, potato, pasta and rice are the biggest reason for obesity. [...] You wonâ(TM)t lose weight counting calories as long as these items are still on your diet.

This is false. I am currently losing weight solely by counting calories, and these items are all included in my diet. I have consistently lost weight every day for two months.

There is so much bullshit being spouted everywhere regarding weight loss. Question everything, believe no-one. Especially your sources.

In combination with complex crabs they can buildup but it's not because of fats, it's because of what the crabs do to you that your body can't process them properly.

Yes, I think maybe your sources include a hooker or two.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Nidi62]

Talking to my wife who does most of our grocery shopping, she confirms your price on vegetables with a nice verity of choices. If you go up to $1.50, the choices expand dramatically. On the chicken, you are too low though. $1.99 is going to be for cheap whole fryers. That means that almost a 3rd of the per pound price is going to be for inedible parts of the chicken, like bone.

I do all of the shopping for my family, and where I live, you can find (name-brand, not store-brand value packs) boneless/skinless breasts on sale for $1.99 lb almost every other week. You can also find split breasts (bone+skin on) for $1.99 regularly, often down to $.99 lb. So, maybe I am just in a very cheap chicken market.

Re:Same as school exercise

[hort_wort]

bake your own loaf of light wheat bread for around $0.25. With a bread machine, the work is trivial and the bread is better than store bought.

A bit off topic, but what do you do about the yeast? Are you saving a bit of dough from one loaf to the next? The little packets of yeast I use are worth a loaf of bread on their own.

Re:Same as school exercise

[X0563511]

Can you share any more details on that? Sounds good.

Additionally, would brown or mixed rice be acceptable?

Re:Same as school exercise

[Fallingcow]

It's tough to beat the really cheap and shitty buffets, like CiCi's Pizza or some Chinese places, on a calories-per-dollar basis--and that's about as unhealthy as it gets.

Re:Same as school exercise

[alexgieg]

We need to realize that cooking, cleaning, shopping, and budgetting aren't things that people just know

Which is the reason schools in Japan have classes on "home education" where one learns cooking etc., although usually only girls attend it. It's a very nice concept that other school systems should adopt, and for both sexes, evidently. Bonus points if it also includes notions on personal finances and budgeting.

Re:Same as school exercise

[X0563511]

I have absolutely no idea what to look for in one. Unfortunately I don't know anyone who uses them either.

How do you tell the decent ones, or even find one to worry about?

This is something my parents didn't do very well teaching me. We always just went to Shaws and Wal-Mart.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Belial6]

Rice is sugar. Do you really need it explained to you why eating a primarily sugar diet is bad for you?

Re:Same as school exercise

[MobyDisk]

This statement:

Does not take time.

Conflicts with this statement:

Thin sliced meat (beef or pork), onion, green pepper, soy sauce, ginger, garlic, mushrooms, sweet mirin, and a bit of sake, serve over white rice with a fried egg on top and you're all set.

It takes time to gather these ingredients, slice them, chop them, etc. It sounds to me like you enjoy the process, and are proud of the result: so perhaps the time does not seem that long to you. But what you just listed take significantly longer than microwaving a premade lasagna.

Re:Same as school exercise

[izomiac]

One problem is that many impoverished people life in what has been called a "fast food desert". IOW, the ratio of restaurants to grocery stores is ridiculously high. Financially, that means that trips to the grocery store cost gas, time, and must be infrequent. The latter stipulation means one needs to buy in bulk, which requires you have $100 or so saved up (serious issue if you live paycheck to paycheck).

As for cost, I can easily get 440 Calorie McDonalds double cheeseburgers for $1 each in less than five minutes. That's quite a bit cheaper than your proposed $5-6 meal per Calorie or per pound and requires far less time, preparation, equipment, and skill. Furthermore, your palette becomes accustomed to fast food. This serves to curtail many attempts to "learn how to cook", because everything you make tastes terrible for two reasons: you suck at cooking and you're used to fast food.

Obviously, none of this in an insurmountable problem. But it should be equally obvious that it's not that easy to escape the effects of poverty. Yes, it wastes money to eat fast food all the time (overall), but if poor people didn't waste money (or not work, or have too many dependents) then they wouldn't stay poor.

Re:Same as school exercise

[krinderlin]

True, but very harsh. Bringing up kids is tiring and few can afford to have one parent stay at home - parenting is itself a job and for most it is in addition to a paid one.

Frankly, then you shouldn't have kids if you can't afford to raise them properly. Unfortunately, I really don't have a say in your choices. Well, I don't, except when your kid is screaming at the table next to me while I'm trying to eat. Then, I will have plenty to say about your parenting skills.

We've talked about adopting several times, but neither of us feel that we are in the right place. We do not own a house. We cannot afford, nor wish to abandon his pursuit of building a successful small business. I can't leave my job because the business doesn't make enough to support us, much less us and a child. We don't like the schools in our city, don't like the tuition at the private schools here, and don't feel comfortable home schooling*. Hence, we are not going to have children for sometime, if at all. We just aren't willing to put forth the changes necessary to feel that we are doing the best we can to raise a child.

* Homeschooling irks us because while we are very well educated, we don't have Masters in education. We didn't go to school to be teachers. Perhaps through the elementary school years it's acceptable, but past that needs specialization. Even then, we don't think it makes a good long-term social outlook to keep your kid home in those early years.

Re:Same as school exercise

[kyrio]

Cooking with Dog

Re:Same as school exercise

[Anonymous Coward]

And skill, knowledge. I don't know what a donburi is, and I wouldn't cook it unless someone told me. I can see the microwaveable lasagnas in the grocery store though.

(My favorite quick dish is a simple "teriyaki"; soy sauce, ginger, chili garlic paste, little sugar or honey, and stir-fried veggies/meat/udon; corn starch to thicken if needed. Favorite low prep time dish? Chili con carne. If you simmer it long enough, you barely have to chop the peppers and onions, and I've pre-prepared a chili seasoning mix just the way I like it. Just throw roughly-chopped onions and peppers in the pot, cook them, throw in the ground beef, brown it, throw in the spice mix and tomoto sauce, and let it simmer. Effortless.)

Re:Same as school exercise

[kyrio]

Good food does not take a long time to cook and it does not need tons of ingredients. Simple examples can be found by checking out Alton Brown's recipes/shows. Opening a cook book about real home cooking. Looking up recipes for traditional European or Asian foods.

I laugh at all of the people who go on about how milk and meat are so very necessary to being alive, yet milk was almost non-existent until about 1950 and the overuse of meat was still not as mainstream as it is now. If you look at the healthiest peoples of the world, they eat massive amounts of vegetables along with fish, very little animal meat enters their diet.

Re:Same as school exercise

[jeffmeden]

The price of single parenthood or dual-(over)working parenthood is very high indeed (makes you wonder why so many are eager to have kids without any sort of stable 2 parent household).

It used to be considered a bad thing to have children outside of a stable two parent household. But nowadays we are much more enlightened and know that holding such opinions is horribly self-righteous and narrow-minded.

Until we bitch that "a single parent household below x income couldn't possibly provide healthy food for their kids, omg 2much2do!"

Go troll somewhere else, please. Sorry my opinion that kids should have healthy food is narrow minded to you.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Belial6]

I specifically said Pizza and cereal is bad for you. Arguing against them is arguing against a strawman.

Fat and calories are not bad for you. That is part of the modern con job. Carbs on the other hand are sugar. Sugar in moderation is fine if you are going to burn it right away, but it is terrible to rely on it day to day. If you eat rice or pasta at home, you are going to get WAY more carbs than chicken nuggets.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe "low prep effort" is a better description. It takes time to cook the veg and then the meat, but you don't have to be attending it the whole time (probably a good idea with the meat, but the veggies can cook with very little stirring), leaving plenty of time for cleaning the kitchen or whatnot.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe a lot has changed in the last 15 years.

Sadly it has. Look around.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Belial6]

Apparently. Around these parts, boneless chicken breast is closer to $3/lb.

Re:Same as school exercise

[X0563511]

I was hoping for a recipe or other text. Video doesn't really help me much. Especially something gimmicky like that dog.

Re:Same as school exercise

[0racle]

I'd love to see you try to explain it while ignoring the fact that rice is not pure sugar, or even simple sugars, does not equate rice with chocolate bars and ignores the fact that the majority of the Far East lives on a diet based on rice.

Re:Same as school exercise

[DarKnyht]

I never said it was cheap. The point is there are alternatives to what was implied, and Schwan's prices are probably about the same that you would spend at a fast food joint (and probably more nutritious).

Re:Same as school exercise

[Belial6]

Rice is 80% sugar, and it is ridiculous to try and equate popularity of food with a lack of sugar.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Beardo the Bearded]

That's interesting that you'd say that.

Which nutrients and macronutrients do you suggest that we are missing? Iron's readily available from plant sources. Every amino acid is available from grains and legumes. (Tofu and quinoa have them all.) Vitamins? Not really a problem with a plant-based diet.

Now, my kids are in the 99th percentile for height and in the advanced classes -- clear signs of terrible health. My daughter's in grade 2. She regularly gets perfect on the grade 5 spelling tests.

Sure, you can see their muscles a little -- it makes it hard to buy pants for them when the manufacturers are expecting kids that tall to weigh an extra 20-30 pounds. Shoes too, they don't make them for skinny kids. That's probably because we're not seeing the side effects of long-term antibiotics in our diet.

I generally eat about 3000 calories a day; I lead a very active lifestyle outside of sitting down in the cube for the workday.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Altus]

I am a big fan of making large batches of food that freezes well, chilly, gumbo, beef stew and soups. I'll make up a batch on a weekend and freeze up 3-5 meals worth. When I'm home at the end of the day and I'm feeling tired and don't want to cook, instead of ordering out, I'll make some pasta or rice and serve it with one of those frozen meals (don't freeze noodles, make them fresh). A good meal can be had in about 15 minutes and the cost of making that big batch is very low on a per meal basis.

Re:Same as school exercise

[chihowa]

It used to be that girls studied home economics and cooking, so that someone in the family would know how to handle these things. I'm glad women have other and more options now, but we need to do *something* to fill that knowledge gap.

When I was in middle school, all kids had to take a year of home ec. This included basic cooking and sewing, also. It was actually fun and as a result I know how to mend my clothes and cook with my wife. I don't understand why this still isn't part of every school's curriculum.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Altus]

Yea, but do the behaviors of 13% of Americans really cause all of the childhood obesity in the US? If it was only the children of the poorest americans who were overweight I would agree with you that the problem is purely economic. Clearly when we are looking for solutions to an epidemic this large we should be looking at solutions that apply for the majority of Americans. The solutions to the problems of the poorest 13% are an entirely different discussion.

The idea that a solution is unworkable because it fails for a minority of Americans is foolish, especially when this solution does not preclude trying to solve the problems of the poor.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Beardo the Bearded]

I realize you're AC and will likely never see this, but don't forget to check out the recipes online. There are some great one on the Happy Herbivore website.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Anonymous Coward]

oh fucking wow, 3 part time jobs for a single parent household, that'll get that family very far, oh wait isn't much fucking money, especially after the fucking rent in many cities. Here is what a single parent must fucking pay for every month dipshit.

* Rent - at least 2 bedroom at $500
* Child care while parent is at work - at least $200 per month per shift.

Those two alone bring the fucking total to at least $700 for 1 20 hour job.

7.25 Minimum wage * 20 = $140.50
140.50*52/12=$608.83 per month before taxes.
Not enough to fucking live on so then the singe parent must get 2 or 3 more fucking jobs to compensate. Then the costs become.$900 or $1100 at least. 2 jobs will bring roughly $1200 monthly gross and 3 will bring roughly $1800 gross. Even without any fucking taxes that will only leave no fucking more than $700 per month for food, transportation, minimum phone service, lowest tier internet plan, electric, gas, water, sanitation, basic medical, etc. As a fucking result many single parents have no fucking choice but to eat nothing but junk food. It's cheap and it requires little to no prep work. Plus the parent must eat at the place of employment to save fucking costs. So stop spewing talking points from the local tea baggers you fucking retardican cracker.

Re:Same as school exercise

[n30na]

Yup. I have a high metabolism, so I usually have to worry more about net calorie intake more than how healthy said calories are. And per-calorie fast food is cheapest.

Re:Same as school exercise

[MartinSchou]

Now you're making in the top 20% of income earners in the country. It's hard to do, but can be done. Look at my wife. She did it. While doing all the housework, and taking care of our children. I worked full time and took classes part-time. It can be done.

So what you're telling us, is that you married a hard working and intelligent woman, and she married a lazy slob who can't even be bothered to help around the house?

Poor woman - she could probably do better ... ;)

Re:Same as school exercise

[thomasw_lrd]

I'm posting on /. Of course she coulda done better.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Anonymous Coward]

Gospel Head the Food Guy?

Might want to work on that branding.

Re:Same as school exercise

[sydneyfong]

Yes yes, blame the victim.

The fact that most families don't make $90k a year is definitely all their own fault for being lazy. Seriously, why are all those people unemployed? Must be lazy bums they are. Just get an education and get a job!!!

I'd have mod you troll/flamebait, but then you wouldn't know why.

Re:Same as school exercise

[I'm just joshin]

Did you not see the part where it took 35 minutes? I work full time and still can ensure that my family eats healthy meals.

Preheat oven to 325 (convection) or 350 (regular)
Season Chicken
Pour rice in rice cooker
Wash rice
Add water and seasonings
Put chicken in oven
Start rice
Surf /. for 10 minutes
Clean vegetables
Put in steamer
Surf /. for 20 minutes
Serve food

Re:Same as school exercise

[thomasw_lrd]

Why can't they? There are jobs, and a college education isn't that hard to get.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Rakishi]

When people talk about poor people who do not have the time or energy to prepare meals, we are talking about these people.

Stop trying to retcon the debate to make yourself look like less of an idiot. You made claims which in no way involved this 13% of Americans and then had your ass handed to you. Accept it and shut up before the hole you're digging reaches China.

Re:Same as school exercise

[llZENll]

Don't be fooled by the government and big ag companies, the human body was never adapted to eat the amount of grains that people eat today, whole grains are not good for you. They certainly aren't as bad for you as junk food, sugar, and some other things.

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/definitive-guide-grains/#axzz1ndH8SAzF
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/definitive-guide-primal-blueprint/#axzz1ndH8SAzF
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/definitive-guide-to-the-primal-eating-plan/#axzz1ndH8SAzF

Re:Same as school exercise

[I'm just joshin]

I buy the yeast in bulk from Costco.

Here's my favorite bread recipe- add in this order:

For a 2lb loaf:
    2 tablespoons white or brown sugar or honey
    1 teaspoon salt
    2 tablespoons canola or olive oil
    12oz water

    3 cups white flour (Costo 25lb bag - $8)
    1 cup wheat flour (Walmart 'Hungarian' whole wheat flour 5lb bag - $3)
    1 teaspoon dry yeast (Costco 2lb bag - $6? - around 300 loaves worth) - Don't use the packets.

I have a thrift store breadmaker. Just before the last rise cycle someone pulls the paddle at the bottom of the pan to not have a big hole at the bottom of the loaf.

It really does work out to between $0.25 and $0.50 per loaf. And that includes the amortized price of the bread machine. I make at least 4 loaves a week and we've been doing this for at least the last 5 years.

-J

Re:Same as school exercise

[I'm just joshin]

My bread machine is a $12 Thrift Store special. It's been working great for us for the better part of a decade; the last 5 years making loaves about every other day.

-J

Re:Same as school exercise

[manwargi]

Each person's physiology is different so it is unsurprising there is a lot of disagreement on what causes weight gain and weight loss.

For the record I too am losing weight while consuming bread, potato, pasta, and rice. However, I get plenty of exercise, I don't eat white bread anymore, and I mostly only eat a lot of potatoes in the winter (i.e. when they're in season for consumption). But probably, someone in another part of the world with a different background will need to eat differently to get desirable results.

Re:Same as school exercise

[oreiasecaman]

your post reminded me I'm mighty hungry... where are those overpriced Cheetos bag I bought yesterday?! :)

Re:Same as school exercise

[russotto]

(Yes, I know, government statistics may be fabricated, but there's very little reason for them to do so here)

They may not be fabricated, but they don't make a lot of sense either. The Rutgers main campus is a food desert, but there's not a single one in all of NYC -- and the one in Newark, NJ is downtown, where the tall buildings are, not where most of the poorest people live. Philadelphia has two -- one is the airport and the other is western Fairmount Park. This does not support the theory that poor people (at least in the Northeast) eat badly because there's no good food available.

Re:Same as school exercise

[_archangel]

Also try replacing the lasagna noodles with kale or chard that has been blanched for a minute. That was one of my experiments that I thought, "This is either going to turn out well or really badly." It turned out well.

Re:Same as school exercise

[kyrio]

The videos are about 6 minutes long. Cooking time not shown is maybe 10-20 minutes more. That's about 20-25 minutes to make pretty much anything they've shown. It's not hard to watch a video, write down the ingredients you need, and the steps to make it, and then watch it again when you have the ingredients, in order to pick up her skills or to double check that you're doing it correctly.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Anonymous Coward]

Well of course I am not Google which can easily answer your question. But the classic vegan vitamin deficiency is B12 which even if it can be eaten is not absorbed in a vegan diet. Another is Essential Fatty Acids, EPA and DHA are well-proven to be good for your health. Your body can convert minute amounts from vegan ALA sources such as flax, but really you want fish oil. Iron, calcium, and zinc are other big ones.

As far as macronutrients go, plants are normally about 90% carbs 5% fat 5% protein. Really terrible. Fats are the basis of hormones, and protein of muscle. In a world where you can buy a gallon of milk for $2.79 there's no reason to be getting 90% carbohydrates. Generally speaking animal fats are healthier than vegetable fats, and vegan diets are too low in fats unless you're eating spoonfuls of coconut oil or what have you.

Additionally protein from animal sources are in the ratio the body needs, while protein in vegetable sources are not. It's not just a matter of "protein completeness" - technically rice protein completes beans, but the two combine to form a really shit protein with ratios nothing like what the body wants (although it will keep you alive). This is a more pressing issue when it's a low-protein diet and a growing child.

I don't think there is one perfect diet. Every diet has advantages and disadvantages. But a vegan diet is clearly not a healthy one. Unless you're a fucking Asian who is also a Buddhist monk (I am a fucking Asian but not a Buddhist monk) there's no religious reason to eat that way. It's some moral stance with unclear motivations.

Sorry to lecture but I am pedantic and really think vegan diets are a terrible thing and this is especially true when it's a growing child. Raise them vegetarian if you must but not vegan.

Re:Same as school exercise

[xorsyst]

+1 We are basically the same. Kids slightly younger, but excelling at school and very tall and lean.

B12 is the only one we are even slightly concerned with, and that's easily obtained from either a multivitamin or fortified breakfast cereals.

Re:Same as school exercise

[mdarksbane]

I got 12 weeks of it. I enjoyed cooking, and if you were completely ignorant it should have taught you the basics of measurements and following directions.

But all of the recipes still took most of the 50 minute period. It was majority baking, and we didn't cover use of spices at all (as in, which ones you want to keep as standard in the kitchen, or basic ideas of when to use what). Which means that if you came out of that class, you could probably boil a pot of water without setting the house on fire, but you're not going to be any closer to making a 15 minute dish that tastes decent.

Re:Same as school exercise

[RivenAleem]

You know that most supermarkets (Tesco in Ireland) do deliver? And you can order online (even just order online and pickup).

Also, I remember helping my neighbor out regularly, watching the kids while she went shopping. I do wonder nowadays if the sense of community is gone in some places, where you don't even know the name of the people living next to you.

When I moved into the apartments (they were brand new) I'm living in now, one of the first things we did (with the help of the landlord) was to organise a barbecue on one of the few nice days we had that summer. You no longer simply nod to people as you pass them in the corridor/stairwell. We'd often help people with picking up shopping or simply keeping an eye on the kids (watching TV) while parent is out for an appointment.

I don't want to judge, as I have no idea about your situation, but there are still ways of ensuring you get healthy meals with not a whole lot of effort.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Beardo the Bearded]

I just ate a bunch of nuts, so I'm getting a kick out of your reply.

27g fat
9g carb
10g protein

10% of Ca
15% of Fe

I guess you think eating vegan means eating salad but that's simply not the case.

There's also 0 cholesterol, which means ~it's way more dangerous than animal fats.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Reapy]

Whew, judgmental non parent! I love the logical jump that his children will be screaming nightmares that you see going out to eat because they can't afford to spend 3 hours in the kitchen every night. Don't talk shit until you try going for weeks on end without sleeping through the night and see how that lack of sleep infects every thing you do in your life.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Reapy]

I can't tell you how many times I wanted to 'eat healthy'. I just don't know how, then you go out looking for information online and you run into like, massive huge debates. "The USDA recommended are bought for by corporations and is all wrong" Growing up I was told to eat carbs. Now I'm not supposed to eat carbs. Then people say watch out that is dangerous to avoid carbs. Now low carb! Wait, you should be vegan, look at how good that is, wait, if you eat vegan your body rots itself!

It is actually quite overwhelming to find information. So you settle on, ok healthier is not eating fast food and trying to cut down on going out to eat, buy from the store and cook it. Sadly I had been avoiding fast food, but with 2 young kids it has found its way back into our eating habits out of convenience .

So lets gauge my time by, I get home at 6, my oldest son (at 2 yrs old) goes to bed by 8. This is 2 hours a day to interact with him. At least 1 hour of this time is food prep and eating, which leaves me most of the time getting him all riled up before bed usually.

Now the question is, what do I like? Well, I don't know, because I've been eating premade crap all the time, and I don't know what store sells high fructose corn syrup because apparently that is what I have grown up on. So then you start making stuff, and you are hungry, and everyone is hungry, but oh look, I totally fucked it up now.

Yeah, did you know that when you make this soup that is actually starting to taste good, and you put pasta in, that pasta expands the fuck out of itself? So you think you can put that much in, and it doesn't look like much, but you come back in 10 minutes and you have now made yourself a giant bowl of disgusting pasta mush instead of vegetable soup. What does the family eat for dinner now?

Why does the chicken I make taste like ass every time I cook it? Yeah you can put it in the skillet, but it comes out like a dried out piece of shit or for some reason it just won't cook itself. The interwebs say cook it XYZ long or to X temp, but you do this and its not done, or its over done. How do you check a meat temperature, you buy some shit meat thermometer in the store and jam it into the stupid piece of chicken because you don't know how 'squishy' it should be to be done, or what it looks like. but the meat is too thing to hold up the thermometer so it keeps falling over and its just not reading anything.

Meanwhile, baby is screaming, everybody including yourself is hungry and cranky, and god damnit, I'd rather be eating food right now, watching some crap tv show, then helecopter spinning my son around and pile driving him onto the couch.

What's for dinner? Mother fucking chinese.

Re:Same as school exercise

[krinderlin]

I do see it. My best friend doesn't remember the first few months after they brought the baby home because lack of sleep killed her ability to form long term memories. However, her and her husband saved up over $400,000 before trying to get pregnant. They both spent the first few months on (m|p)aternity leave, but also so that her husband could stay home with the child until pre-K. After that, he worked part-time so that he could have afternoons off to take care of the kid.

Everyone got plenty of sleep by the second or third year, too.

Nothing pisses me off more than people who have kids without making the proper fiscal preparations. If you can't afford kids or the time necessary to care for them, don't have them. Having multiple kids and no time to cook for them because both parents must work to keep a roof over their heads and nasty quick-fix food in the pantry is disgusting.

It's time for society to give up on the reproduction "mandate" and start moving attitudes more towards making having a child a long term, career like, goal.

Re:Same as school exercise

[krinderlin]

Also, since you went off on my random tangent: I'm not accusing anyone of having screaming kids. I was just stating that I'm one of those so-called rude people who is not afraid to turn around and say, "Your child is loud and just placed their hands in my food. You are officially a shitty parent." I really don't care if it's true or not, it just makes me feel better to get a rise out of them. After all, they sat around giggling at little Johnny ruining everyone else's dinner.

Re:Same as school exercise

[s0nicfreak]

Rent: get a roomate or two. 2 bedrooms are not necessary, that is a luxury. Depending on how many kids you have, you may not even need a room big enough to hold 2 beds. Some of the things I did when I was a single parent were work on a farm in exchange for getting to live there, and work a job for someone that owned apartment buildings in exchange for getting to stay in an apartment. At one point I lived in a 1 bedroom "apartment" that was really a house that had been turned into 3 apartments and an office. Yes it sucked, but it was a roof over my kid's head (at points before I was a parent, being homeless was an option, but I wouldn't do that with a kid), and it was cheap so allowed me to save up money to get into a better place.
Now I own a house (fully, I mean, without mortgage) and my property taxes are $600 per year (yes there is a lot of upfront costs, but in the long run, since I do the upkeep myself, it is cheaper than renting).

Child care: yes that is expensive, which is why working as little as possible as a single parent, or having 1 parent stay home in a 2 parent household is cheaper. When I was a single parent, I often worked jobs where I could take my child along, and/or traded child care with other single parents.

Even without any fucking taxes that will only leave no fucking more than $700 per month for food, transportation, minimum phone service, lowest tier internet plan, electric, gas, water, sanitation, basic medical, etc.

Phone, internet, and electricity are all luxuries. Before you say a phone is needed for emergencies, you don't need phone service to call 911, a phone connected to a service-less landline will call 911, so it isn't needed.
Either way, when I was a single parent, I had food, transportation (when it was needed for my job; I worked at places I could walk to and from home whenever possible), minimum phone service, highest tier internet plan, electric, gas, water, sanitation, and basic medical, and it didn't cost me $700 per month. At the point where I was paying rent at the 1 bedroom "apartment," I was making $700 - $800 a month before taxes, and the rent was $300 a month.

(If you're planing on saying that I must have lived in cheap areas, I've lived all over the US and in parts of Asia, mostly in major cities and in suburbs of major cities. If I couldn't find work or just didn't like a place for some reason, I packed my stuff into a backpack (yes, I didn't have much, but much isn't needed), picked up my kid and left however I could afford to do so.)

As a fucking result many single parents have no fucking choice but to eat nothing but junk food. It's cheap and it requires little to no prep work.

Fruits and vegetables require little to no prep work and are cheaper than junk food.

Re:Same as school exercise

[jeffmeden]

Two words, kind sir: George Foreman. Get yourself one of these small, cheap devices. Use it to cook chicken (or a lean meat of choice). It will not taste bad no matter what you do, unless your taste is really for shitty food...

Re:Same as school exercise

[trev.norris]

I'm calling B.S. I was raised in a single parent low income home where my mother was able to hold a full-time job and was still able to make us healthy meals. Morning was easy, just a bowl of oatmeal or such. Takes a whole 3 minutes for a PB&J, or even easier was to have yesterdays leftovers for lunch. Dinners would be pre-prepared or left in a crockpot or any number of different methods that were quick and easy.

I mean really, look at the number of hours spent on the TV each week and tell me they couldn't take 30 mins out every day for at least one decent meal. It all comes down to priorities. Nothing more.

Re:Same as school exercise

[deomo899]

I know that a lot of school have completely done away with P.E. as a mandatory class. This in and of itself is a bad start for kids. Since kids spend a lot of their time in school, teachers and principles need to help in setting physical demands and goals for children. Back in my day, we ran, we played in the mud and all that good stuff. Our school encouraged these activities. There was not a single obese kid in my elementary school.

Re:Same as school exercise

[Anonymous Coward]

"One of my long-term goals is to become the Fred Rogers or the Bill Nye of food television."

Sorry, Alton Brown beat you to it.

Re:Same as school exercise

[GospelHead821]

Yeah, you kind of have me there. Alton Brown is certainly the TV chef whom I would most like to emulate. Still, I think his target audience is more adult than mine would be. It would need to be a little bit more *ahem* bite-sized and I'd particularly like to focus on some fundamentals. Where do various foods come from and how to do they feature in a healthful diet? I'd probably still include recipes but maybe not integral to the program. More like, "If you want to make using , you can find a recipe at our web site." It would be less of a cooking show and more of an educational program focused on the topics of food awareness and nutrition with elements of cooking and home-ec included.

kinect is a lot better

[alen]

i had a wii and even with the balance board the exercise quality was so so. and its easy to cheat with the controller

kinect is a lot better in making you actually move and there is no way to cheap since the software is looking for specific body positions not just movement of the controller

Re:kinect is a lot better

[na1led]

The Kinect isn't perfect either. If someone gets in the camera's view, it can mess up the game. The camera also needs good lighting for it to work properly. Both systems have their Pros and Cons.

Re:kinect is a lot better

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd have to agree. When I had a wii one of my friends would lay down on the couch to play the tennis game, it's just about flicking the controller around. Now I have a connect and I honestly do feel that I get some exercise if I play Just Dance 3, or Dance Central 2. With the wii it was almost too easy to cheat, and in a lot of ways I felt you would be better off cheating. If you can just concentrate on moving the controller and not your feet you'd get a better score. Clearly missing the point of the fun of the game, but hey some people sit down to play Rock Band, some people jump around and actually rock out playing the fake guitars. Just depends on what your objective is, points and/or fun.

Re:kinect is a lot better

[Anonymous Coward]

The person above me (na1led) is right, both systems have their pros and cons.

I have to say, from my personal experience, it also depends what game you play with the Kinect. I guess you burn more calories by playing games in a standing position compared to playing games in a sitting position (for example Rise of Nightmares vs. Resident Evil 5). But if you want to call it physical exercise, you will have to play some game that requires your whole body to move (Dance Central, You Shape).

I regularly run once or twice a week so I'm in a somewhat good shape. Kinect Adventures made me sweat a lot while going for 1000Gs, so I guess that's a quite active game if you are looking for exercise.

Re:kinect is a lot better

[Baloroth]

This is my impression as well. Even if you don't try to cheat, the Wii controller just isn't all that much of an exercise (at most, it involves moving your arms around a bit), while even relatively sedentary Kinect games require you to be at least standing and usually involves moving your whole body, if only to make sure the sensor actually detects the motion. And the more active Kinect games are a huge workout.

Of course, I'll take my keyboard and mouse or joystick (or hell, even a controller in a few games) over either one when it comes to actually playing a game, which is supposed to be enjoyable and requires precision if it is any kind of challenging. Kinect and Wii just don't provide that.

Re:kinect is a lot better

[Anonymous Coward]

That was the first thing I noticed when I got the Kinect... no scamming the sensor.

Games like Wii sports mostly involve sitting down and occasionally flicking your wrist. Even with games like Wii Fitness, whether or not it works is entirely on you. The system does a poor job *forcing* you to get active.

With Kinect, you've gotta actually get up and move. No sitting, no slouching, etc. Sure there are limitations, but being able to sit and play is not one of them.

Re:kinect is a lot better

[Anonymous Coward]

> Both systems have their Pros and Cons.

True. But the Pros for the Kinect that the grandparent poster was talking about were in reference only to how much physical activity is involved.

The Cons for the Kinect that you mentioned were all in regards to its various possible technical deficiencies.

So...nice non sequitur, I guess?

Re:kinect is a lot better

[RogueyWon]

I have both - and use both as part of my daily exercise routine. The both have their pros and cons. The balance board does have an awful lot of limitations, but it has one great benefit; a few routines you can do while the TV is tuned to another input (with occasional voice guidance via the Wiimote).

My daily routine now is 20 minutes or so of fairly vigorous stuff in Your Shape 2012 on the Kinect, followed by 20 minutes of either free jogging or free step on the Wii; just long enough to watch an episode from one of my anime DVDs, which keeps the thing interesting and keeps me motivated.

It does work; through a combination of this routine and controlling what I eat, I got from 238 pounds down to 160 pounds (I'm 6 foot tall) over the course of 9 months and have held the weight off for 6 months since managing that. I need some sort of goal-system thingy to keep me motivated for exercise, and Your Shape/Wii Fit do that pretty well.

Re:kinect is a lot better

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with what you're saying but that has nothing to do with the fact that you still have to actually move.

Re:kinect is a lot better

[uigrad_2000]

Well, for every person like you who lost 78 pounds by playing exercise games, there's another person who gained 78 pounds playing exercise games.

Sorry, that was sarcastic. l, too, have lost weight (40 lbs) by playing exercise games (DDR in my case). Clearly, if you want to lose weight, these games can work, and make the weight loss much easier than just a boring treadmill. When I was playing DDR regularly, I was exercising 5x to 10x more than I had before buying the game.

The study is interesting, but it is kids age 9-12, who tend to be more active than adults anyway. Kids in both groups exercised vigorously for an average of 3-3.5 hours per week, which is far more than adults average.

If your child is exercising under the average amount, and you really want to change that, I still think exercise games are an excellent choice. The difference between you and the parents in the study is that you actually care enough to encourage your kids to play the exercise games instead of watching TV.

Re:kinect is a lot better

[na1led]

I find the Wii Fit board to be much more accurate for some activities, such as ones that require balance. A Camera can't accurately predict your weight and posture.

You got to make kids do stuff...

[ZombieBraintrust]

Kids left to themselves won't change their behavior. Parenting means more than buying your kid a toy and hoping for the best. News at 11.

Re:You got to make kids do stuff...

[Kjella]

True, but you'd think that if you gave them a basket ball they'd spent more time playing basket ball and if you gave them a guitar they'd spend more time sitting still playing the guitar. Assuming it's something they would do at all of course, but kids often do what they're given the opportunity to do. Of course that's not all parenting is about, but I'm surprised to see no effect at all.

Re:You got to make kids do stuff...

[Pausanias]

Force your kid to go for a run with you. If the kid moans, offer a bribe of a stupid Wii video game AFTER (s)he run 20 minutes with you. Put yourselves on the "couch-to-5k" program (http://www.c25k.com/) if you're running-challenged yourself. Grab a couple of tennis rackets, a basketball, take your kid to the playground or the gym and do it WITH them, however goofy you feel you are.

In general, kids take from parents. Couch potato parent = couch potato kid.

While we were living in Canada, the government sent us a pamphlet saying that research shows a three year old needs a minimum of TWO HOURS of daily active outdoor movement (as in, running around and bouncing the ball, NOT going to jamba juice or whatever other calorie factory). The amount of activity that we provide our kids in the US is paltry compared to that.

FORCE yourselves and your kids to do it. TOGETHER. It's the only way.

Re:You got to make kids do stuff...

[Belial6]

I'm not. The kids are probably spending their time playing more popular games that don't involve exercise. They gave the kids their choice of run their course active games, or still popular inactive games. There study was designed for a few years ago. To do this study today, they would have needed to use a Kinect.

Re:You got to make kids do stuff...

[ZombieBraintrust]

You need to think about all the unused exercise equipment people buy for themselves each new year. All the guitars sitting in closets or pawn shops. All the toys kids get bored of after a few days. You can't replace Will Power with Novelty.

Unfinished business

[Tablizer]

Baranowski said his team couldn't tell if kids just didn't end up exerting much energy playing the active games, or if they compensated for exercise they got playing Wii with less exercise at other points in the day.

But that's the million-dollar question. Guess we'll have to wait until Part II.

This reminds me of...

[filmorris]

I remember, once upon a time, when there was a thing called "outside". Kids didn't need videogames to exercise, as they did actual exercise. Seriously, thinking videogames=exercise is so dumb it should be illegal.

Re:This reminds me of...

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously. The only time my 4 year old slows down is when he's playing Wii. All he wants is his bike and the outdoors.

And anything with a Cars logo.

Re:This reminds me of...

[na1led]

Yea, instead of playing Tennis on the TV, go play Tennis outside. There is no substitute for the real thing.

Re:This reminds me of...

[Nidi62]

I remember, once upon a time, when there was a thing called "outside". Kids didn't need videogames to exercise, as they did actual exercise. Seriously, thinking videogames=exercise is so dumb it should be illegal.

I remember back in my middle teens, there was this restaraunt we would go to that had a few arcade games. One of them was a shooting game where you had to control your character by moving. You had to crouch to crouch, lean right to lean/move right, etc. After playing it for about 10-15 minutes, I was soaked in sweat and my legs were starting to wear down/cramp up. It was easily one of the best and most entertaining leg workouts I've ever had. And I wasn't the kind of person that just sat around all day; I was on the football and wrestling teams and seeing a trainer on my own. So yes, video games can be good exercise if implemented properly. The problem is that they aren't.

Re:This reminds me of...

[tycoex]

Right, because it's just as easy for a parent to drive to the nearest tennis court (which may be fairly far away if you aren't rich) and stay at the tennis court for an hour and then drive back, every day, as it is to buy wii sports.

Re:This reminds me of...

[s0nicfreak]

You can just go out in the yard/playground/schoolyard/street and play tennis, you know. You aren't going to be arrested for playing tennis outside of an approved tennis court.

Re:This reminds me of...

[Belial6]

I challenge you to play Fruit Ninja and Whack a Rabbid on the Kinect for a couple of hours without raising your heart rate. Sure you could just lose, but if you are actually playing the game, you are going to get a pretty serious workout.

The whole "outside" thing has become problematic because our culture has demonized and often criminalized youth being self sufficient. When I was in kindergarten in the 70's, my peers and I could walk home for lunch. By the time I graduated from high school in the late 80's, it was considered far to dangerous for 16, 17 and 18 year olds to leave the school for food. If they did, the police would pick them up, and if it happened too many times, the teen's parents could find themselves in court.

The majority of parents have been convinced that letting a child walk to the park and play without the parent sitting there the entire time is literally child abuse. This means that even when kids are allowed to be self sufficient enough to walk down to the park, there are no other kids their because they have all been locked up in "after school programs" or daycare.

Explanation?

[wisnoskij]

So were the active video game kids just not playing their (boring) games and that is why it was equal?
Did they figure out it is actually a whole lot easier to minimize your moments (or even just use normal controls) instead of waving your arms about and jumping around like the adverts?
Did the kids who did not get exercise from their video games do a little on their own?

Re:Explanation?

[tepples]

Did they figure out it is actually a whole lot easier to minimize your moments

If you want to 100% Dance Dance Revolution, even minimizing your movements won't keep you from exerting yourself when you get to "Max 300" on heavy. The uploader mentions "playing on the inside of the pad", and I see heel-toe technique used, but that still doesn't make 573 steps in 90 seconds not a workout. But perhaps quitting DDR before finishing the Maxes might count as "not playing their (boring) games". Though I've beaten 9 footers such as "Rhythm and Police" and easy 10s such as "Sakura" and "bag", I never progressed far enough to do the Maxes on heavy either.

Re:Explanation?

[Krazy Kanuck]

FTA:

It's still possible that kids playing active Wii games burned a few extra calories during their gaming sessions that the movement device didn't pick up on -- for instance, if they were moving their arms a lot in a boxing game, Barkley said.

I cannot think of the Wii game that I have played that I could not do sitting down (with obvious exclusion to Wii Board games), including various dance games. Seeing as you are holding the controller in your hand and it is not attached your waist I'm inclined to think that invalidates this test to some degree as the data capture accelerometer for the testing was on the waist.

Re:Explanation?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've run 3 marathons and I still use DDR 10 footers for training. "Playing on the inside" and even holding onto the bar at arcades still gives you one hell of a workout.
I doubt most kids, like these test subjects, would ever get past 5-6 footers though which doesn't give all that much of a workout.

Causes of the decline of outside

[tepples]

A couple things not directly related to video games caused the decline of outside. One is the decline of pedestrian-friendly urban design. Suburban sprawl makes it difficult for children to find playmates in a like age group and for them to find a place in which to play. Another is public hysteria about child molesters who lurk in public play areas.

Re:Causes of the decline of outside

[Anonymous Coward]

This, and plenty of it.

Where I grew up, I lived within a block of both a park and library. In order to get to either, I had to walk down the alleyway behind our house (low use for about 15 local residents), across a school parking lot (low use for the times of day I would go to the park and library), and across a street that saw very little traffic. MacGyver and A-Team did not have episodes about child molesters, and my parents were confident that if I'd go to either place, there was minimal risk. We would ride bikes around our city block growing up, knowing that people would look out for children on bikes; additionally, the sidewalks were on both sides of the street, so we never had to go into the street to bike all the way around.

I'm now raising two children. We have a park a block away, but I personally feel compelled to go to the park with them every time they want to go (they are 7 and 9, so I don't feel they are quite old enough to go on their own yet.) The sidewalks are only on one side of the street, so there's no way for them to bike in a loop without crossing a street in order to do so. Further, the residents in the middle of the neighborhood we are in can't seem to figure out what "Speed Limit 30" means - frequently they are trucking through at 40mph, despite the fact that they know there are children in the area, so in order to go biking I need to load up all the bikes, kids, and take them to a local park with trails. The nearest library is about 3 miles away, so drive our kids to the library and load them up on books every weekend.

There are numerous soccer fields within a mile of our house, but getting to them involves walking across a county highway where the speed limit is 55 mph, and walking up the sidewalk along that highway. It only takes one distracted driver to veer off the highway and onto the sidewalk (there is no curb separator.) So if they want to play soccer, we're driving to the soccer fields.

Current urban design is driven by economics, not personal well-being. It's aggravating.

Re:Causes of the decline of outside

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget public hysteria about gangs.

Re:Causes of the decline of outside

[Kjella]

Not to mention a general hysteria of children getting hurt. True, the child mortality rates have gone down somewhat too but in return it sounds like nature is too dangerous with those hard rocks and pointy branches and tall trees. The "kid safe" play areas are often very cramped that you could run around it in a minute or two while not being very challenging and repetitive. If you want real activity then hiking/biking/camping/skiing/swimming/something out in nature where you have larger areas is almost a must.

Re:Causes of the decline of outside

[Anonymous Coward]

"If you want real activity then hiking/biking/camping/skiing/swimming/something out in nature where you have larger areas is almost a must."

And those areas get bulldozed into developments as soon as they can cash in on them. The few places that pass as "open space" are usually as natural as golf courses now.

Re:Causes of the decline of outside

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure,
      But for many getting to nature isn't an every day option. Dense cities at least have parks that can be easily reached, even without a car. Suburban sprawl is just a blight. You have to drive to get just about anywhere.

Re:Causes of the decline of outside

[Belial6]

The urban design excuse is a myth. My neighborhood, and every neighborhood is ~70 years old. The neighborhoods on 3 sides of mine are also ~70 years old. (The forth side is open hilly forested space with multi-acre lots, so it has a mix of > 70 and 5 year old homes.) There is a park that is 5 blocks away, smack dab in the middle of this neighborhood. Pretty much the only kids that use the park are toddlers who's mothers take them there. Suburban sprawl doesn't make it difficult for children to find playmates and a place to play. It is exactly the opposite. It gives them MORE places to play. The lack of neighborhood playmates comes from the recent trend of anti-sprawl. It is the jamming of houses together so tight that no one has a back yard. The fact that population density is so great that it is no longer safe for kids to play in the street. This combined with the fact that parents are terrified of letting their kids out of their sight, they can't go to the neighborhood parks.

Re:Causes of the decline of outside

[tknd]

Suburban sprawl doesn't make it difficult for children to find playmates and a place to play. It is exactly the opposite. It gives them MORE places to play. The lack of neighborhood playmates comes from the recent trend of anti-sprawl. It is the jamming of houses together so tight that no one has a back yard.

You couldn't be more wrong. Here's why:

If you are a kid and you want to play, it is a lot more fun if you have a friend to play with. However, if the closest friend is just 2 miles on the other side of town, chances are you're not going to see that friend because: you are too young to drive, mommy thinks it's too far, and there's a child molester somewhere in the state.

The problem with your logic is you assume playground = kids can have fun. Or trees = kids can have fun. Or bicycles = kids can have fun. But what's the single thing people seem to aspire to do when they grow up? Find a mate. What you are suggesting is the equivalent of marrying a playground swing, slide, or monkey bars. Kids don't want that. People don't want that. What they want is the interaction with friends. The playground becomes secondary.

Now if you go to Tokyo, one of the densest cities in the world, I think you'll see something you haven't realized. It works the same in any city, but I think Tokyo is the finest example. Many homes even in the suburbs in Tokyo do not have yards. They might have a garden, maybe a space for 1 car. But that's it. The front door is usually less than 5 feet from the street. Now according to your argument, kids in Tokyo should be miserable and bored to death. But it is quite the contrary. Kids are lively. Go on a train just after school, elementary school kids riding the train together or alone without the aid of an adult. Go to a popular area or hangout for kids like say a trendy store or cafe, kids again waiting to meet up with friends and "hang out". Of all the places that are the emptiest, it is the public playgrounds that seem the most dead. Everyone else (kids included) are meeting up in various parts of the city to "play".

The strange side effect of all of this is because the kids have to walk some distance, they aren't hyperactive compared to American kids that get driven around everywhere. They also grow up with the idea that walking is a part of life. Here the first thing a kid whines about is having to walk somewhere. Well he wouldn't whine if you'd stop driving him everywhere he needs to be and if Billy his best friend was within 10-15minutes by foot rather than 30 minutes by foot.

In Tokyo access to a train station pretty much grants you access to the entire city. In order to use the train you only have to buy a ticket. There's no age requirement, no license requirement. This means as soon as a kid can buy a ticket, know what stop to get on/off, he has equivalent mobility to most adults in the city as well. That's huge. No suburban backyard can compare to that concept.

Re:Causes of the decline of outside

[Belial6]

If there are no other kids within 2 miles of your home, you don't live in a suburb. You live in a full on rural area. And, your idea of kids taking a train all over town is DOA in the US. Not because of suburbs, but because American parents have been terrorized by our government and media.

Re:Causes of the decline of outside

[JohnnyBGod]

There must be something right about that place... you chose to live there!

You get back what you put in

[na1led]

If your goal is to beat the next level in the game, then you don't expect much exercise. My kids play the Wii because their bored, and they just want to play a game. My wife uses the Wii to exercise and gets a good workout from it. It all depends on your mind set and what you expect to get from these games.

Structured fun

[vlm]

Slightly off topic, but very closely related, does anyone have stats on what results in more activity, structured scheduled programmed events or free time?

My gut level guess is free time results in much higher activity levels than structured events. Building a snow fort is exhausting compared to warming a bench at a sport. Etc.

It Might be that enforced structured scheduled wii play (OK governor katy pery song on just dance 3 will commence from precisely 1012 to 1015, after which the next scheduled song, like it or not, will be ...) is just boring and less energetic than kids just going crazy doing whatever they want.

Thinking back to my youth, when I wasn't chasing dinosaurs, hunting for woolly mammoth, or going fishing for trilobites, if I built a snow fort however I wanted I went crazy building it until I'd practically collapse, but given an "assembly line job" of repeatedly replicating a standardized boring data analysis driven snow fort I'd probably have all joy crushed out of the experience.

Short version is butchering wood in the basement workshop = big fun = high energy but middle school shop class making a birdhouse = no fun, I Fing hate birds = just do the minimum until next class. Wii might be the same way.

Re:Structured fun

[ZombieBraintrust]

I would ignore your gut level guess. Your youth sounds very different from mine. I spent most of my youth in my own head not doing much physical activity unless prompted to do so. Go to a playground and you will se a couple fat kids standing around not doing anything. Some people when given a choice will choose to conserve energy.

Re:Structured fun

[na1led]

The social structure of our society today is creating Fat Lazy kids. Parents are too worried about letting their kids go play outside unsupervised, and their are too many rules and regulations that keep kids from having fun. When I was a kid, I rode my Bike all over the place and my parents never worried about it unless I came home late. Today, everyone is living under fear.

Re:Structured fun

[gagol]

Today, everyone is living under fear.

Sad, but true. There is always a risk no matter what you do. Being afraid to live is just sad... No surprise so many people (and kids...) are depressive today.

Re:Structured fun

[Belial6]

The sad thing is that we live in one of the safest (THE safest?) times and places in history. We also have things like cell phones that can tell us exactly where our kids are.

Re:Structured fun

[na1led]

Even if you feel your kid is safe by themselves, someone else will think differ and report you for neglect. You can't win either way.

Re:Structured fun

[Belial6]

Exactly. And there are plenty of government employees that are willing use the force of government to enforce the retardation of our youth.

Accellerometer on the belt

[Issarlk]

How about putting the accelerometers at the end of the kids' limbs instead ?

Re:Accellerometer on the belt

[Zondar]

I thought the exact same thing. I remember playing one of those boxing simulators in an arcade several years back, one with motion tracking and real gloves you wore. I can guarantee that game burned more calories than any other game there, but the researcher's methodology (putting accelerometers on the belt) wouldn't have measured that either.

Re:Accellerometer on the belt

[Anonymous Coward]

Because it would contracdict the entire point of their research paper.

For a real test, put accelerometers at each joint on a subject's arm, and give them one of those 'inactive' games. I haven't played any of the games listed, but I know Metroid Fusion and Star Wars: Force Unleashed can lead to some frantic arm-flinging (and the occasional attempted full-body dodge that ends up not being understood by the game system).

Re:Accellerometer on the belt

[Nationless]

Attach rope (or use inevitable safety strap), swing it around. If a kid wants to be lazy, they will.

Re:Accellerometer on the belt

[greg1104]

You're thinking of Mocap Boxing, which when played properly is an exhausting game. It becomes increasingly difficult to actually play the game properly at higher levels though. There are spots where you have to throw 50 punches in a row, in a short time period. I had to settle into a wrist flick that it accepted as a punch to make through those. Even with that small cheat, I still found how far I got in the game was determined by my physical conditioning.

I once watched a pre-teen boy play the game and do nearly as well as I did. He never threw a real punch; he just banged the two gloves together, taking a fraction of the energy to play normally. Some kids will go to amazing lengths to avoid real exercise.

Re:Accellerometer on the belt

[Fned]

I loved that game!!

It not only was a brutal workout, but actually told you how many calories you burned playing it

Re:Accellerometer on the belt

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah no duh. An accelerometer on the belt would pretty much just track center-of-mass motion. So according to it, running on a treadmill wouldn't be much exercise, spinning even less so.

There was another study on Dance Dance Revolution a while back. They had a class of schoolkids playing DDR for some time each day and tracked the results, which were that the benefit was negligible. Notably absent from the report was any mention of difficulty level! I play DDR for 20-30 minutes most days, and let me tell you, after a few songs on moderate-to-high difficulty I'm sweating and breathing hard the same as if I'd run a couple miles at least. But it's taken me a lot of practice with the game to be able to pass songs at that difficulty. At low difficulty the game's no more exerting than a casual walk.

The sloppiness of these two studies makes me suspect some confirmation bias at work. The scientists want to find that video games can't substitute for "real" exercise, so they overlook obvious issues with the study design that would interfere with their expectations.

Re:Accellerometer on the belt

[snoop.daub]

Err, didn't mean for that comment to be AC. Sure being a grown man playing DDR is a bit embarassing, but I'm not proud.

There's the problem!

[Anonymous Coward]

They gave them WIIs instead of XBOXs!!!

Re:There's the problem!

[ZeroSumHappiness]

But we want them to work out their muscles, not their vocabulary of racial slurs.

Well

[eternaldoctorwho]

Thinking that "active" video games will increase exercise among children, is like expecting that a news aggregate website will increase the amount of reading people do.

...And to clarify, there's a reason why the acronym RTFA exists.

They may not make them exercise more...

[cheekyjohnson]

But they sure do excel at transforming them into cold-blooded murderers.

Even more important

[XxtraLarGe]

Will the PlayStation Move Sharpshooter make me a better shot?

Re:Even more important

[WillAdams]

Presumably you're joking, but FWIW, I had enough fun playing Link's Crossbow Training that I bought (used) copies of it for all of my co-workers who had Wii Consoles and made wooden zappers for them in my workshop --- unfortunately the motion for aiming w/ an IR pointer is a bit different than that required in real life (even when using a laser pointer style site), so doubt it helps much save for helping one w/ concentration and target acquisition.

I've pretty much transitioned to archery, so have been getting much more out of Wii Sports Resort and Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword and actually find that using the Wii Motion Plus style gyroscopic archery control helps me maintain my focus when I can't get out to the range.

DDR?

[Kashell]

DDR is the only thing among these that give an actual workout, and that's only if you play the game for long enough to get good on the hardest difficulties.

Yeah, handing kids a Wii is not the answer, duh. You still have to WORK OUT. o_O

Re:DDR?

[Nethemas the Great]

They attach an accelerometer to their waist and expect to monitor activity when the Wii can generally be played armchair style. DDR may be a bit different but I still imagine you can sit on your but and bounce your feet about. If you want a true understanding what how video games can engage people in physical activity then they really should have used the Kinect and/or found a better way to monitor things than a stupid device on the least active part of the body (when playing Wii). I suspect though that this really isn't about demonstrating anything other than than the "evils" of video games.

Video Games make you fat and lazy

[Nyder]

We all knew this, our parents have been telling us this since we were kids.

Re:Video Games make you fat and lazy

[Dogbertius]

I have played video games most of my life and I have six pack abs and only nine percent body fat. I also exercise one hour per day. The two activities aren't mutually exclusive.

Cheat?

[medv4380]

What kind of person Cheats at Wii Fit?

Re:Cheat?

[vidnet]

Kids whose parents incentivize them.

Re:Cheat?

[nozzo]

exactly. if you want to get fit then the Wii Fit is a means to an end therefore you would put effort in to the games. If you wanted to play around then just sit down and wave the controller around. It's not a question of the system let's you cheat but more of if the individual actually wants to get fit/lose weight. my gf and I have the wii plus fitboard and dance and we really get in to it. My heart-rate-monitor tells me I have increased heart-rate and am burning calories. Now get up off that couch and shake it baby.

Re:Cheat?

[wbr1]

A lot, just Google wii fat.

Re:Cheat?

[medv4380]

Depending on when you purchased it that's a waist of a hundred bucks. I might be foolish enough to spend 150 bucks on Steel Battalion because I like the novelty of a huge controller that only works with 1 game and it's sequel. However, to buy the Wii Fit just to wave the controller around is a waist. It's not that fun compared to an actual game where I'd be still waiving the controller around. vidnet's comment about kids being incentivised makes sense to cheat, but to cheat at a game that gives you no awards to brag about makes no sense at all, and is boring as all hell. I understand people who bought it to try and get fit and gave up, but why sit down and wave the stick around?

More gym class, and recess for younger kids...

[jzarling]

My 6yro is a wildman when it comes to most of the Wii "active games" he gets pretty excited and jogs in place and is constantly moving - he gets fairly sweaty doing it, tho he is probably an exception to the rule.

When I was in school we had a lot of phys ed - everyday in grade school, 3 days a week in middle school, and high school. Now I think my kid gets 2 days of gym a week. Sure there is recess, but its in 15 minute spurts, or a 30 minute lunch where half the time is spent eating his lunch.

There is no such thing

[vikingpower]

as an "active videogame". There is such a thing as an "active game". Most sports, for example, are; too bad you have to go out and move your *ss in order to get some benefit out of them. Same is true for chess: instead of dull and stultifying video games, teach your kids chess. It will give their brains a workout.

I have a hard time believing that there actually are parents, whether European or US or wherever, who need to be *told* such basic things. Sheesh.

Re:There is no such thing

[Lemmy Caution]

I have to especially agree with the idea that chess - and other non-digital games - are going to be a lot more beneficial than digital games. Because when you play a videogame, you're just responding to the game and creating a loose model of the system, but when you play chess (or Warhammer, or Settlers of Catan, or MtG, or cribbage) you have to know the rules completely in order to play. I'm all for my kid becoming a big gamer, but mostly in the non-digital realm.

Re:There is no such thing

[s0nicfreak]

But if the child then goes and plays virtual chess against someone, that would be little different than playing physical chess - except for the fact that his opponents are not limited by physical proximity.

Mario was good exercise

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know about other people, but when I was a kid the video games had me bouncing off the walls in excitement. Did no one else strain and lean holding the controller out way to the side as if it would make Mario jump a little farther?

Apparently I still do it too. My wife commented the other day I was tilting in front of my computer; I was trying to fly a helicopter in battlefield 3.

Really? Where did real studies or reporting go?

[Anonymous Coward]

My house had a simple rule growing up that I intend to apply to any kids I may have: you have to spend time outside everyday. For me it was at least an hour and I'm quite sure it was also to let my parents relax a bit after work, but it kept me active until I was in my late teens.

With that said I should also mention that some important facts about the study were left out of the article. Did the kids take the Wii home and if so did they double check that they didn't buy other games for it? If you give them a choice of 3 movement games that they just don't like then they won't play them and if they were bought other non-movement games they'd just play those. On top of that you only give them the Wii if they comply with the times to turn on the sensor devices, so did anyone make sure the parents weren't helping them cheat the devices so they wouldn't have to buy the Wii they're kids are now hooked on? I'm not saying this is what happened just that these are the things that could have gone bad in the study. Generally if there are variables that aren't under scrutiny and control they can foul the results of any scientific study to the point they can't be trusted. Scientific method anyone?

More than the wii

[bigbangnet]

Nothing beats some good old "get the fuck outside and play [insert sports name here]. Really what the hell is wrong with that ? name me 1 wrong thing with that ? nothing...theres no reason to go outside and play. Parents should get involved with their child's sport. Just playing ball is good enough...well better than gluing your ass on your sofa watching TV, computer or game console anyway. No details needed, take your kid, throw him out, get yourself outside and do something physical, walk, run, play ball. Steal a bike and get caught will the cop is beside you. Anything will do, you will have your daily exercice...really lol.

I remember when I was 20 and I subscribe to do kick-boxing, 3 times a week for 1h30 each session. I got out of there like I was walking on clouds. it was good. Now I got a kid and I play sports, play ball..whatever, I'm just outside with him playing with him doing something with him. My ass ain't stuck in a sofa. That attitude, behavior will help my kid understand that getting his ass outside the house helps and if your in a chair...well you'll get fat. plain and simpl.e

Re:More than the wii

[cheekyjohnson]

Really what the hell is wrong with that ? name me 1 wrong thing with that ?

Some people don't like it. I know I don't.

Re:More than the wii

[Anonymous Coward]

This is something that sportsy people really don't understand, but forcing kids to do sports can really turn them off physical exercise. When I was a little kid, I was constantly up and about, walking through the forest, climbing trees, building huts, and so on.
But due to the PE lessons I later got at school several things changed. 1) The school days were longer and I had other hobbies. I had to choose. 2) I was often to tired from PE to be doing much else than sit around. 3) I hated pretty much everything we did at PE and by extension I started to hate exercise. I'm still not over that.
The decades have passed, I'm slowly running into middle age, but I haven't really exercised since I came out of high school. Strangely enough though, I'm in better shape than ever before. I've read somewhere that people will naturally get enough exercise by doing daily activities like housework, biking to the supermarket and so on; maybe that's the reason.
So my solution to the obesity epidemic is this: replace PE lessons with healthy cooking lessons. It will turn less people off getting exercise, it probably won't significantly lower people's exercise rates since people will do whatever they do anyway, and it will make it possible for people to eat more cheaply, more healthily, and above all, enjoy a lifestyle with good restaurant quality food their entire lives.

Re:More than the wii

[bigbangnet]

You just have to find a sport that you like. Everyone should have a least 1 sport they like to do...

Re:More than the wii

[cheekyjohnson]

Everyone should have a least 1 sport they like to do...

I don't. Physical activities do not appeal to me at all. I exercise, but only so that I do not get completely out of shape (at no point do I find it entertaining).

Re:More than the wii

[vlm]

Everyone should have a least 1 sport they like to do...

I don't. Physical activities do not appeal to me at all. I exercise, but only so that I do not get completely out of shape (at no point do I find it entertaining).

First of all find something fun to look at while exercising, then exercise is fun. I used to get teased for attending girly aerobics classes, until I dragged a weightlifter friend of mine along to see the ladies I was raving about. He now also attends yoga class, apparently solely because of the invention of womens spandex clothing (he's looking at it, not wearing it). Whatever floats your boat, you should watch, but try not to be too creepy. You can also enjoy the sights by taking up two of my "sports" that being bicycle trail riding (usually routed thru amazing scenery) and geocaching (nobody puts the cache next to the mcdonalds grease trap, its always somewhere visually amazing like the top of a hill/mountain).

Secondly try what /.ers would call grinding. I still remember the first time I bench pressed 200 pounds for a full set. The feeling of achievement was cool, exactly like leveling up a video game. If you like those "quest RPGs" where you have to find 10 bear pelts in skyrim or whatever, you'll love trying to work up to benching 300 or whatever your goal is. I'm told the feeling from completing your first marathon, or under 10 minutes for 2 miles run, etc etc is very similar. So grind something for the sake of grinding, you may like it. Make a graph or chart, it helps.

Thirdly try non-sport house/yard work, which is pretty much a sport anyway. Gardening, done right, is a heck of a lot of physical activity. Also home remodeling type stuff. Someone who claims yard work is not a sport should try building a 15 by 20 foot paver patio by hand and then get back to me on that, there's a lot of rules, luck, skill, practice, and plain old sweat involved. If golf is a sport, then yardwork is a sport 10 times over. If you've got no house, volunteer for habitat for humanity, etc.

Fourth there are some hobbies that are inherently physical activity/sports-like. For example, fine carpentry, like making furniture. How about installing elaborate ham radio antennas, if you're not sweating buckets you're probably not doing it right. Some car mechanic work is nearly white glove work, but suspension/brake work and replacing big heavy parts like engines is a brutal workout. I remember the first time I did a complete front disk brake job, every part of me was tired and sore. Not knowing what you're doing helps get a nice workout. Now, work like that would be no sweat.

Re:More than the wii

[cheekyjohnson]

First of all find something fun to look at while exercising, then exercise is fun.

Too distracting. If I watch something while exercising, I don't really pay attention to it or care about it.

But even if the thing was fun to look at, it would be fun to look at the thing and not exercise. Like I said, some people find some physical activities fun, but I simply don't. I do them because I get something else out of them (like not being completely out of shape).

Explain: how do you play DDR without moving?

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesn't it mean that the kids actually don't play the games? I am playing DDR regularly and it's a pretty hard exercise.

Re:Explain: how do you play DDR without moving?

[s0nicfreak]

With a controller/keyboard? I never saw the point, myself, but I use to know a guy that would spend hours doing that. Or maybe on the easiest setting; with some of them that is less of a workout than walking to the kitchen and back.

Wii fat

[globalist]

About a month ago I finally got me a Wii and, being the impulse buyer I am, I got the Wii Fit Plus bundle that comes in black with a balance board. It was a great deal, but the more I use it the more I realize I should have just got the vanilla Wii and saved some money and a lot of frustration. I did not have any particular expectations from this excercise tool and instead I just kind of relied on Nintendo to not f*ck this up. Well maybe I should have watched a few videos to realize how stupid this whole concept is for somebody like me who does get some normal excercise in his life, as opposed the intended demographic of this failure. I mean is this thing intended for retards who never got off their ass until they bought a Wii? Am I really supposed to spend 5 minutes navigating thru the stupid menus just to get a minute of any excercise, then rinse and repeat? The only real excercise seems to be the jogging but then why not just put on my shoes and go take a jog outside, IRL? What am I missing here? And am I supposed to take the whole 10 minutes of the excruciating body test again just to get my current body weight taken? And am I really supposed to click A every single fricking time a sentence appears on the screen, interrupting any semblance of flow that's left in this game? And how long should I overlook the inaccuracy of the board accessory? And they are using BMI score, really? Seriously, are the Japanese this retarted or are they just too genious because they actually sell this crap to Americans? Is this some WWII revenge in disguise or wh

Were the consoles actually installed?

[turtledawn]

Can someone with access to the full article tell us whether or not the researchers assessed that the consoles were actually installed, and that the parents allowed the children to use them? I know if I showed up at home with some random game console my mother would have said, your father will have to install it, and when Dad got home he would have wanted to have dinner and watch TV all evening. If there's only one TV, the kids are going to lose out on using it.

Yes, I know that these are elementary schoolers which means that their parents were involved in signing the consent for them for the study. I also know just how good people are at following through on things they've signed up for for themselves, nevermind their kids.

Proper controls

[omems]

In order to balance out self-selection bias, they should have switched what type of game the kids had halfway through.

Wii

[Anonymous Coward]

An exercising study with the Wii? Seriously? Just by moving 2inches you can top the accelerometer. Try Kinect of PSMove at least if you want any result.

Activity Adaptation

[Fned]

This is actually something that happens to all people, not just kids -- if you increase your activity level by adding exercise, your system will attempt to maintain equilibrium by either unconsciously wanting to eat more, or by reducing your percieved energy level the rest of the day.

Scare them with type 2 diabetes

[Frank T. Lofaro Jr.]

Tell them if they don't exercise, they'll get type 2 diabetes, possibly while they are still children and will not have a single DAY of a healthy adulthood, and they'll have to eat boring foods on a schedule, never go barefoot at the beach (diabetics are told to NEVER go barefoot because they have nerve and blood vessel damage), still go blind and have their legs cut off, or they can exercise and not get it!

Re:Scare them with type 2 diabetes

[s0nicfreak]

Kids can't really understand that sort of future consequences type of thinking. What we have to do is just make healthy eating and exercising part of their normal routine, and make healthy foods the only options (aside from rare special events). Don't bring unhealthy food into your house, and your kid can't eat it there. If their school has vending machines of unhealthy food, don't give them money. Show them how great tasting healthy food actually is, and don't make eating it a chore.

Wii Isn't Active...

[Anonymous Coward]

It isn't hard to play Wii games that use the hand controller sitting down. And even if you were standing, bowling, tennis, boxing, none of these are really that active. I bought a Kinect and the Adventures games that come with it and Fruit Ninja which I bought really make you work. You break a real sweat and we have to take turns playing to catch our breath.

It's all in the interpretation

[Minwee]

"kids with the active games didn't get any more exercise than those given inactive video games"

Or, to spin it the other way, "kids with the so-called 'inactive' video games got as much excercise as those given more 'active' games".

Having seen the kind of swearing, drinking, controller-throwing and fist-fighting that usually accompany games of Mario Kart, SMB-Wii or Mario Galaxy, I can easily see how they would beat more passive games like Wii Sports for physical activity.

Accelerometer on the wrong place

[submain]

In another study, scientists put the accelerometer on kid's right hands. There was a dramatically increase in exercise activity, specially between 11:00pm and 2:00am. Researches are still puzzled why this has been only observed on boys.

Two Problems

[thefixer(tm)]

I have two problems with this study. First off, it was done with a Wii, not an Xbox with Kinect. The problem with the Wii is that it's easy to cheat the sensor, instead of moving around you can get away with slight gestures with your wrists, no real physical exertion needed. My second problem with this is that the sensor is located on the belt. If you are jogging in place, you don't exactly move very much when measured at your hips.

I'd much rather see a heart rate monitor with a Kinect setup. To (in)validate this study's findings.

My kids play Kinect often, it's one of the activities they are allowed "unlimited" time for. Sit down games and passive entertainment are restricted to 1 hour per day max, unless we're doing a family movie night. With the Kinect games, the kids come up breathing hard and sweating.

This article should be making a much more precise point, that "Wii exercise" isn't.

terrified of letting their kids out of their sight

[tepples]

You make valid points too, but this is what both of our hypotheses have in common:

parents are terrified of letting their kids out of their sight

So how can this be fixed?

Flawed Study.

[Anonymous Coward]

As someone who was actually ranked in the US Top100 at one point for DDR, I can say that the sole reason the console editions fail, is because the home use pads can't hold a torch to the arcade ones. This makes people less inclined to take these games as seriously as one could/should. Imagine trying to play your favorite FPS with a keyboard that only responds to every 5th keystroke, or do some serious PVP in your MMORPG of choice with nothing more than 1 mouse button. You can see where the level of effort put forward would drop drastically vs. playing with serious equipment that works.
When I used to play DDR at the arcade, the line would take 2 hours before I could get a turn. Meanwhile, everyone in that queue waiting to play had home versions already.

I lost close to 40lbs in the first year and a half playing DDR. I was >200lbs at 6'2". After playing seriously for a little over a year, I dropped down to 165, and have maintained that weight since. 10 years later, I'm now in my 30s, and the only real "exercise" I get is when I play DDR/ITG for an hour or two every week or so.

I call bullshit on this article. I'm living proof of the opposite. The kids they picked were just lazy or didn't care to play seriously.

A quick, albeit douchey, youtube video will explain my point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4--dqkoMlk (not me, by the way)
While it may appear this guy isn't moving or doing much exercising, remember that all of his weight is being put on both arms so his feet can move that fast without falling over. For roughly 2 minutes at a stretch this guy is doing reverse push-ups off of a bar and still managing to move his feet to hit an arrow every 0.2 seconds with 100% accuracy at threshold of 1/100th of a second. That means he moves his feet to hit 5 different arrows every second, while doing roughly 150 pushups (on the 4s of the 4/4 beat). The amount of muscle control that takes, to be that accurate (not getting ahead or behind), is probably on par with most real athletes. Again, this kind of feat would never be possible on a console version. Console versions don't have nearly as steep of a timing threshold, because the hardware can't keep up.

horribly inaccurate study

[slashmydots]

Dance Dance Revolution on maximum difficulty burns 32-40 calories PER SONG, which are all around 1:40. That's around 1200 calories per hour (if you were to play it in nonstop mode). My longest DDR workout while making a custom rating guide for a mobile DJ was 4 hours and trust me, some kids play for 1+ hours all the time. Of course, if you had an accelerometer attached to your belt it would look like you're practically standing still that entire time. If you took off jogging, it would register a huge change in acceleration but your hips barely move playing DDR. It's all thigh and calf muscle activity with very little vertical change either.

Re:terrified of letting their kids out of their si

[Belial6]

Unfortunately, if fear this is a trend that will get much worse before it gets better.

Prime example

[Chewbacon]

That DDR game from about 10 years ago. At the that time i was in high school, I wasn't a marathon runner but was in average shape. That game would wear me out. The reigning champ of DDR: a morbidly obese kid weighing in at 300 pounds.

Re:Prime example

[OrangeTide]

being morbidly obese doesn't mean you're inactive. It just means your input is greater than your output. If he was playing DDR and not losing weight I'm going to guess that he consumed a serious amount of food, because I don't think there is a way to play DDR so efficiently that you don't burn calories doing it.

Round and round we go

[manwargi]

Children get put on psyche meds because instead of sitting at a desk for hours reading and studying, they want to run around screaming outside. Then, after getting into the habit of sitting around a lot they somehow grow obese and are encouraged to exercise more. There is no end to this.

I smell conspiracy, now with hickory flavor

[OrangeTide]

Maybe there is a pill that will make them lose weight? Oh shit there is.

Is it a conspiracy of the drug companies, or are we all just idiots?

Fast is cheaper, flawed NYT execution

[Anonymous Coward]

They didn't try to eat cheaply at McDonalds. They bought Big Macs, but you can have a .99 McDouble for 1/3 the price and roughly the same calories. They bought cheap food at a supermarket and compared it to the premium meal at McD's, demonstrating only that they have no idea what it's like to go out with $4 to feed four people. The other fast food places have similar deals. Include the time costs, and unfortunately it becomes all too easy to eat badly.

Talk about the article

[lothar4ever]

I've been reading a lot about food and stuff, and you all forget the real issue: the exercise. Of course playing this games have nothing to do with the amount of exercise outside the game, BUT IS MORE if they do. The thing is that is "some" exercise, not a lot, some. It's still better than doing nothing.

Kids != kids of a like age group

[tepples]

Kids != kids of a like age group. Children aged 6 and 17 are both "kids", but their playing together would be considered odd unless they're related by blood or by their parents' marriage.

wii

[Tmann72]

I'd argue the wii is a poor choice of system for this study. Even at its most active you can sit calmly in a chair and simply wiggle your wrist to get it to work. If we really wanted to test this something that requires a broader range of motion would have been better. In this case both the Move and the Kinect would have been better.

The Problem

[DanielBMS]

The problem is that good dance pads are expensive. Example: http://www.ebay.com/itm/M04133-Dance-Revolution-ION-Master-Arcade-Metal-Dance-Pad-raised-buttons-/230548163725?pt=Video_Games_Accessories&hash=item35adbdcc8d Also they used Hottest Party rather than Stepmania with an endless supply of Stepmania packages from Zenius-I-Vanisher.

What did they expect?

[SICKECHO]

I'm not sure I understand the mentality of the game developers. They design a "game" to encourage kids to be active and fit, yet the premises on which the game works involves staying inside and playing videogames.... hmmmm that's probably it right there? I never had this issue when I grew up, my parents kicked my ass out of the house if I stay inside too long, so maybe the parents are to blame for fat kids? Either way staying inside and playing videogames is not the solution for making kids more active.