Slashdot Mirror
Georgia Apple Store Refuses To Sell iPad To Iranian-American Teen
pdclarry writes "An Iranian-American teenager was told by an Apple store employee that they could not sell her an iPad because it would violate U.S. trade restrictions. She returned to the store with a camera crew from a local TV station and was again turned down. Apparently an Apple employee heard her speaking Farsi. As he was also of Iranian extraction he recognized the language and used this as a basis for refusal."
Homosexuality is illegal in Iran, so it should be illegal for Iranians to buy iPads.
An Arabic name is bad news at US airports, speaking Farsi is bad news in Apple stores?
The angst-driven post 9/11 world is a shame :/
should have just worn a turtle neck and told the store clerk that it was a magical turtle neck.
by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
Why didn't she just purchase from the competition? There's a huge choice of non-Apple hardware!
"Raw, unbridled racism from Apple"
What "race" is "Iranian"?
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
It's the same old think that is so tiresome -- which is really "not thinking."
One day I feel I'm ahead of the wheel / the next it's rolling over me / I can get back on / I can get back on
Sounds like the sales person is a bit confused about the regulations. I'm surprised they didn't call over a manager especially when a film crew showed up, or maybe they did after reading the article. It looks like all involved are a bit confused about the regulations.
There was absolutely nothing preventing them from selling the Ipad to the teen since they were in America and said nothing (according to them) about sending it overseas. Now, it would be illegal for the teen to send the Ipad back to Iran, but that would be the responsibility of the teen and not the Apple store. It sounds like the manager and employees have carried the restrictions on shipping certain products to countries like Iran a bit too far as it isn't meant to prevent them from selling those products to people from Iran living in this country.
Iranian, maybe? Does it matter? You hear someone speaking another language, demand to know what country they are from, and then refuse them service because they are from the wrong one. That is racism - pure and simple - none of the usual complexities.
Great Intellect...
It's not racism. It's either an employee correctly refusing to violate a (imo silly if it applies to consumer electronics) law, or the same employee INCORRECTLY doing same (pretty damned sure it's the second- the article implies that). Either way, it's clear that the employee's stated reason is not based on race.
Also unlike the summary states, she told the employee that it was a gift for her cousin, who is an Iranian citizen. It wasn't just "because she was speaking Farsi".
And no, I'm no Applepologist. But this doesn't look like it is the story that is being presented.
Our export laws are extremely complicated and they have very severe penalties. The girl should complain to the government about the strict policies that force companies to do what Apple did.
"Raw, unbridled stupid patriotism from Apple"
question. is this iranian apple employee also prevented and prohibited from purchasing apple products?
"Apparently an Apple employee heard her speaking Farsi. As he was also of Iranian extraction he recognized the language and used this as a basis for refusal."
So this isn't just another case of "racist white guy does something stupid to someone just because they're Middle Eastern*", this is "racist Middle Eastern guy does something stupid to someone just because they're Middle Eastern"
That's... wow. I was not prepared for this level of stupid today.
* Is is really correct to consider Iran "Middle Eastern"? I know they're ethnically and linguistically distinct from the Arabs, and also have a significant religious difference. But geographically (and geo-politically, at least from an American view), you could definitely argue that they are.
No wait. I guess I'm just bored.
Why should we care? Do Farsi-speakers really need to jump on the victimization bandwagon? Is grievance politics really the most important thing in the world? Can't it be a simple mistake rather than a cause to rally Apple-haters and race-grievance-mongers and lawyers and every other agitator who gets a paycheck by trying to divide people against each other?
Can we all just mind our own business for once?
As Apple's devices are locked and the company isn't allowed to deal with Iranian carriers, her cousin couldn't use the device even if they sold it to her.
It's disheartening that a person cannot distinguish between exporting to a sanctioned country to selling to someone with cultural links to said country. At that rate you'd better stop selling to anyone speaking Spanish in case they violate sanctions against Cuba.
I am genuinely shaking my head that my choice is between believing the salesperson is an unashamed racist hiding behind ignorant interpretation of policy or that a person could be that stupid as to confuse the two.
I never get used to these constant resurrections
1. This is old 2. This has nothing to do with race, ethnicity, or 9/11 3. This has nothing to do with Apple 4. This has to do with the US embargo on Iran, which includes selling goods to anyone in the US that could take them back to Iran. This is law. This is not Apple acting out of nowhere. It's in their legal terms that states they follow US embargo laws. If you don't like them, tell your congressman to change US embargo law or to lift the embargo against Iran. Good luck with that.
Persian?
Read what I mean, not what I wrote.
If you're buying from Apple, I think it's fair to say you're not really thinking to begin with. However, I just find this astounding. This wouldn't happen at the hickish farming supply store here in the deep south if someone speaking Farsi bought a half a ton of fertilizer - why is it happening in a store which sells to people who at least think themselves to be progressives? It seems like death to their company image unless the reality distortion field gets turned up to 11.
Great Intellect...
Why rehash stuff that happened a week ago?
that if the Iranians get their hands on an iPad, it's curtains for Western Civilisation.
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
Good luck proving the Iranian sales clerk was rasist to the Iranian customer.
Its illegal to export many products from the US, and selling to someone who could be easily mistaken as a 'foreign nation' could get you into hot water too.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
It's like confusing Apple stores and airports? They have COMPLETELY different functions, even though they claim to serve everyone's best interests. If you work for TSA you don't have any authority, and you are supposed to blindly do what you are told, just like the Apple store. But if you work at the Apple store you have a little more autonomy, even if you can't set policy.
Obviously, in this case the employee in question is nothing more than a bad apple (employee).
I'm actually impressed that anyone in Georgia is moved to believe they can help to implement a state level strategy designed to pressure 'The Iranians' into compliance with the loosely enforced ban on nuclear proliferation. Apparently there must be some radioisotopes used in the manufacture of iPads?
well the US government made the law so if you don't like discrimination against Iran take it up with your representatives.
Yeah, right. Which is why we hear this out of Walmart, Target, Best Buy, and all the other electronics-selling stores constantly, which sell orders of magnitude more than Apple stores do. No, sorry, this is Apple-specific. Take the blinders off.
Great Intellect...
Ah, I can see, though, that the field is already at 12. Nice to know Macbois are not just ignorant, but also racists, when it comes to protecting their favored white-box manufacturer from criticism.
then I suppose there is a big fine coming Apple's way since they told her she could buy one. That's law. If Apple doesn't like it they can just ignore it. Apparently.
"Sabet says she later called Apple's corporate customer relations, where an employee reportedly apologized and told her she could buy an iPad online."
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/iranian-american-woman-says-apple-refused-sell-her-002456511.html
The clerk in this case was probably over zealous/cautious. I don't think racist or mean or anything. He's trying to follow the policy the best he can. Apple HQ fixed the issue, but the fact still remains that your take on US export laws is false.
Good point, more to the point, why didnt the customer just go to Walmart or Best buy or Radio Shack where they sell the Ipad and just buy one instead of calling the news media.. its what I would have done and would have an ipad.
people get all worked up sometimes and just dont think logically.
"Lawsuit of the year incoming! Raw, unbridled racism from Apple, which is apparently company policy. Think different, indeed."
Don't quit your day job at McDonald's in order to go to law school.
If the US export restrictions forbid sales of computers to Iran, then the Apple Store
acted correctly under the law and there can be no lawsuit.
Persian.
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
Only if she tells the person about to sell it to her that she intends to send it to her relative in Iran. At that point, it's like selling a gun to someone who says the intend to use it to break the law. You become liable.
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
The second article specifically states that she intended to send the iPad to Iran. Stupid policy or no, this is not racial profiling.
So if McDonalds tells you they can't serve you because you are black, you'd go to Burger King and just shrug at the situation? Yeah..., sounds like someone who has no idea what it means to be singled out.
Great Intellect...
I am surprised someone on slashdot believes the salesperson was right. Trade embargoes prevent the company from dealing (export or import) with Iran and Iranian companies. Nobody in their right mind will interpret this to mean that Apple cannot sell to someone of Iranian cultural heritage. The employee made a mistake, but people defending this are simply stupid.
Actually it's not. In this case it's due diligence. Apple is not allowed to export to Iran then they are obliged to not export to Iran, and are supposed to make sure whatever they sell isn't ending up in Iran. If they knowingly sell product to someone who will export or re-export it to Iran that would be illegal and could land them in a lot of trouble.
You could do the same with anyone speaking Korean or arabic. (North korea and syria) it would just be relatively rare that anyone is exporting to North Korea.
When you buy the product you're agreeing to the licence agreement that says you won't export it to Iran. If there is *any* evidence that you are going to violate that agreement Apple, or just about any other electronics manufacturer cannot sell it to you. They sell it to a warehouse in Qatar where people are smart enough to not open their mouths.
You could have every single transaction an employee at any computer products seller say "Now you understand that you aren't allowed to re-sell or otherwise export this to ..........." and sound off the long list of countries export is forbidden to. But most of the time that would be stupid (in the same way airport security long ago gave up on asking whether or not baggage is your own) and just a waste of everyones time. It's there in the fine print if you want to read it.
Nor, by the way is this unique to the US.
The UK page (which itself refernces the fact that the restrictions are EU wide) http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/about-us/what-we-do/services-we-deliver/export-controls-sanctions/country-listing/iran. There are so many layers of places you have to look, I don't see the value in linking them all to convey the point.
If you're buying from Apple, I think it's fair to say you're not really thinking to begin with. However, I just find this astounding. This wouldn't happen at the hickish farming supply store here in the deep south if someone speaking Farsi bought a half a ton of fertilizer - why is it happening in a store which sells to people who at least think themselves to be progressives? It seems like death to their company image unless the reality distortion field gets turned up to 11.
Where is at this store at which my Arab brothers can buy large quantities of fertilizer with none questions asked?
Got it. Persian. So apparently Iran is a homogeneous society. They are all Persians. Just like in the USA we are all what race again? See, citizenship (nationality) and race are not equal. Or, being slashdot, race != nationality.
Blame the US for export restrictions?
Blame Iran for being, well, Iran?
Blame Apple employee for asking questions about people speaking a foreign language, which in turn resulted in a refusal to sell?
Blame the customer for disclosing that they might or were intended to have the Apple product go back to Iran, thus an export violation?
Point is, there is enough blame for everyone here. I do take a little more note on the customers, since they should be fully aware of how the US feels towards Iran in general. I'm guessing they didn't think such 'hostility', transferred directly to US businesses, or walk in stores for that matter. Still, are Apple store employees regularly told to 'look out' for potential customers who might be foreigners, or those speaking foreign languages while in the store?
Apple is still leaving a bad taste in my mouth about this. I think they could, and hopefully will, address this rapidly and publically. Not that this will chip at their stock price or anything, but I have a tendency to remember which companies I deal with, are assholes.
read the licence agreement, you can't sell any apple products to a place the usa disagrees with, well done that man for reading the agreement !
BS, Cuba is in the same boat as Iran as NK (as far as US export restriction is concerned) and I don't see anyone refusing to sell to spanish speaking people.
Again, I will ask what I asked twice in this story already and have yet to receive: show me another company doing this in a comparable way (ie, people in an American store being denied a sale because they might send the item to Iran), and I'll maybe buy it. Quoting laws you do not understand, which do not seem applicable, does not convince me of anything other than that you are seeking to excuse racism because you can't believe your favorite company is capable of it.
Great Intellect...
If they're selling to Iran, they're violating the law.
"What "race" is "Iranian"?"
Iranian, maybe?
You seem to be confused about the concepts of race and nationality.
Even putting that aside, there cannot be anything racist about following the law regarding sanctions against Iran.
If you're buying from Apple, I think it's fair to say you're not really thinking to begin with.
Bigot.
However, I just find this astounding. This wouldn't happen at the hickish farming supply store here in the deep south if someone speaking Farsi bought a half a ton of fertilizer - why is it happening in a store which sells to people who at least think themselves to be progressives?
Because the sales clerks at Apple know the law and the clerks at the "hickish farming supply store" don't?
Whew, that was close...an Apple employee almost gave someone an iPad. Poor customer!
I'm not a fan of Apple (nor a detractor), but even I can see that this story has zero value as news, but the content of TFA is arranged to deliver misleading understanding of the events for max sensationalism.
1) This has nothing really to do with Apple. The employee's decision was independent of official corporate direction, since it has no policy to prohibit in-house U.S. domestic sales to people suspected of being from Iran.
2) It definitely DOES NOT come across as "racial profiling". The reported reasoning behind the discrimination concerned the customer's country of origin (or destination), not the race.
3) I wonder what the employee was really thinking at the time, like, if the employee referred to a manager, or what. Did he fear for his job? Was he afraid he would violate a policy or law by making the sale, because he had an inadequate understanding of policies and laws? Does Apple have the right to refuse to do business with anyone?
4) It's amusing to read the employee's assessment (his unjust "racial profiling") was totally accurate. Apparently the customer's friend WAS from Iran.
She identified herself as being from Iran.
"When we said 'Farsi, I'm from Iran,' he said, 'I just can't sell this to you. Our countries have bad relations,'" Sabet said.
And then there's the part about it being a gift for a relative living in Iran.
Talk about manufactured outrage. If y'all are going to be mad at someone, be mad at the US government for banning exports to Iran. What else was the sales drone supposed to do when confronted with someone identifying as a person from a country that is not allowed to have the product he's selling?
Being an Iranian who jumped through all the hoops to become a US citizen, there's no way she can be unaware of the export restrictions faced by Iran and Iranians. She knew exactly what would happen when she identified herself as being from Iran to a fellow Iranian selling a product containing technology subject to export controls. I hope she feels good about what she's done to that clerk.
Yep, remember it well when I purchased my first SE.
I had to fill out a form which stated that I would NOT use it either personally or professionally to develop ANY nuclear weapons technology. The owner of the computer store at the time even made me provide a photo ID - [and I was not even trying to "vote"].
Sucks to have to follow the LAW just because you are not a member of the ruling elite.
Read the fucking article. Apple DID sell to her in the end. So no, Apple is NOT forbidden by law to sell.
Its utterly amazing how many of you morons come out of the woodwork to scream your indignation BUT YOU HAVEN'T READ THE FUCKING ARTICLE YET!
I think I was reading another discussion about how apple store employees are paid poorly and they should unionize so they get better treatment.
I was in the group that said "they're just clerks"... and that made me a bad person for some reason. And now we get this... thus validating the point.
They're just clerks.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
Ah, yes, the AC who is an expert on US trade law.
this is political grandstanding between two iranian americans
it has nothing to do with US policy, or apple
don't let that stop a bunch of hobby intarwebs armchair analysts to use the contrived bullshit "event" to engage in holier than thou sophistry
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Nationality != ethnicity. Even if both the clerk's and the girl's lineages hailed from Iran, they are American citizens. As such, there are no laws restricting their purchases on grounds of nationality. American citizens, however, are prohibited from trade of certain goods with other countries, including consumer electronics, and, being in a position to know this, the clerk prevented the girl from violating the law by refusing to sell her a product she indicated she intended to transfer to a country under US embargo.
Being black isn't against the law. Buying an iPad to export to Iran is.
"Bigot."
Wait, really? Bigot for saying if you buy an Apple product you weren't thinking, while in the SAME POST you defend a company that refused to sell to an AMERICAN CITIZEN for speaking the wrong language? You have some SERIOUS issues.
Great Intellect...
"Our nuclear program has come to ruin, as the triggering mechanism was unobtainable. Operation Angriest Bird has failed!"
how many pairs of boxer shorts should you own?
Persians now live outside of Persia, because Persia is ruled by Iranians, who kicked them out of Iran for political and religious reasons. Although politics and religion are the same in Iran. I don't know how it was in Persia; ask a Persian (but not an Iranian). Persians and Iranians are not particularly fond of each other, and they can easily identify each other, because they both speak Farsi. So if an Iranian customer tried to buy an American iPad (made in China), from a Persian salesperson, and said, in Farsi, that it was bound for Iran (and not Persia), which the salesperson remembers as Persia, trouble was bound to happen.
Does that clear it up for you?
Oh, and Martha Stewart recommends NOT inviting Persians and Iranians to the same dinner party.
Now, you can run into similar problems when asking an Arab about the Persian Gulf, or an Iranian (or a Persian) about the Arabian Gulf . . .
That whole area of the world is God's Monkey House, if you ask me.
Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
Apple is not exporting anything. They're merely selling to a US citizen. Their responsibility ends there. Since when did Apple become responsible for enforcing US embargo laws on US citizens?
You don't even know what that word means. So please stop using it.
Life is not for the lazy.
They're selling to a US citizen. What happens after that is none of Apple's business.
Then all trade-restrictions are forms of racism? That's what it boils down to...
The trade-restriction says "you cannot sell to these countries or to anyone you know that will ship the stuff to those countries.." In this case it was warranted since the person was going to ship it to a country on the restricted list..
I do think the trade-restrictions are quite idiotic when applied to these things since the stuff, or at least similar stuff, is available on multiple markets that don't have the same restrictions..
Lets see, go to ebay buy and ship to IRAN where is the problem ??? I swear people just do not know how to think out of the box in the slightest way...now a days
If the intent is to send the item to Iran, then yes.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Wow. Between the Apple employees, the fanboys, the "gotta stop terrurists" bunch, and the armchair lawyers my head in spinning madly.
I sincerely doubt that an $11.00 an hour clerk at an Apple store has the knowledge and judgement to interpret and apply complex trade sanctions.
I also get the distinct impression that too many of you folks see Iranians as a some kind of homogeneous group - especially ex-pat Iranians. There are a lot of Iranians in North America who hate the current regime with a seething passion, and who would see anyone intending to return to Iran as a supporter of that regime. I'd bet the clerk falls into that group.
Finally let's get real here - There's not likely to be much in an iPad that would represent a big jump on whatever technology Iran is using already. Besides, as has been pointed out, there are likely a hundred other ways that the Iranians would get their hands on Apple products. Like, say, buy them in China?
Three Squirrels
To most Americans, the middle east is just a vaguely blur of arabic ethnicities. But I understand that to those from the region, there are many, many, many different definitions within that blue... and they get really annoyed if you get them mixed up.
Iranians are WHITE. They are ARYAN which is why Iran is called IRAN. Duh. Yes, there are whites outside of Europe. Some Indo-Europeans went into Europe, some went into India and some went into Iran. Yeah, people who study "soft sciences" are all retards except when they're not.
And those trade restrictions are why there is just as much money with significantly less risk in selling tech items to trade restricted nations as there is in selling meth and heroin to people in the U.S..
I tried to buy an iPod Touch there a few years ago and they claimed they didn't have any, Now this wasn't just after a release or anything like that and I wouldn't think the iPod is a huge seller anymore, I think it was pretty obvious they just didn't want to sell me one. Could well be because it was my first time in an Apple store and I think I was probably looking at the people who obviously spent their free time just hanging out there like they were morons which I have to admit I was really thinking at the time. Still cost them at least £300 as I wanted a 64gb, also just for the record I'm just a normal white guy in Northern Ireland.
If your bias is based on nationality then wouldn't it be nationalism and not racism? Just sayin.....
I bet if they came in and said "I'm from Cuba and I'm buying this for my Cuban friend back home" it would have gotten the same result. It certainly should anyway. I think the law is crazy but hell, marijuana is illegal and that's even crazier.
She could have purchased it somewhere else and then sent it to Iran. I don't understand why it was important for her to go back to the Apple store other than to bring it to the news station. I'm pretty sure the clerks at Walmart would likely be less concerned about trade embargoes.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
The clerk didn't know she was going to give it to her cousin. From the article "Sabet told WSBTV that the iPad was intended as a gift to her cousin in Iran, but said she didn't mention that to the clerk"
What defense now?
Racism? They sell computers to Arabs everyday. Iran is a rogue state led by a megalomaniacle tyrant who backs many terrorist organizations. The US government does restrict sales to them. I'm sure people like HP find ways to sell to them through work arounds but you show me any tech company OPENLY selling to them. I don't mind you hating on Apple but use your brain a little in the process.
You just refuted an "if" statement. I don't need a defense. If evaluates to false in that case. My statement still stands.
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
Really? Someone comes in speaking Farsi in Shakerag, Georgia and I assure you he's not going to drive away with 3 tons of fertilizer.
And what is your statement exactly?
TLDR Georgia:
Apple employee refuses to sell products to foreigner
Kroger pharmacist refuses morning after pill
Wallgreens manager refuses contraceptives
The only non-American in the entire story is the person to whom the iPad was being given.
turtle neck wearers moderating in full effect.
by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
[T]here cannot be anything racist about following the law regarding sanctions against Iran.
Was there anything racist about following Jim Crow laws against African-Americans?
Thank you, Edward Snowden.
"Arguments from authority are worthless." —Carl Sagan
Bend over deeeep Americans, your government is pounding you up the ass with no lube.
The Good Ole USA - Home of the Brave and Land of the Not So Free at all.
Communist Russia is laughing at you USA.
"Racism? They sell computers to Arabs everyday. Iran is a rogue state led by a megalomaniacle tyrant who backs many terrorist organizations."
Which is relevant how? Hell, I think you just proved my point. The girl is an Iranian, so obviously, she must be evil! It must be some big plot to secretly send an iPad back to Ahmadinejad so that he can use it to... uhh, well, something! How about the racism in hearing someone speak a language and demanding to know where they are from? Would this be alright if it was a Korean being asked what side of the line they came from? I doubt it. Would this be ok if it was Walmart? No, I suspect your tune would be totally different were THAT the case!
"I'm sure people like HP find ways to sell to them through work arounds but you show me any tech company OPENLY selling to them."
Again, how is this relevant? This is a case of an AMERICAN buying a product who may or may not have said (before or after being asked where they are from) that they might have sent it to Iran. That is totally different than a company openly selling to Iran. Are you capable of seeing that difference? Are you? I hope so. I really do.
Still not ONE example of ANY other American store refusing to sell in a similar manner has been posted to this story. Until someone can bring at least one, I'll just consider everyone defending Apple to be ignorant and passively bigoted fanboys. Sorry if you consider that not thinking; I consider it basing opinions on factual evidence or lack there of.
Great Intellect...
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2935527&cid=40432217
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
"We don't serve potential muslims" would do just fine. Clear-cut, acceptable and efficient.
Umm...I just refuted your entire statement in my previous comment. Just give it a rest and don't waste my time alright?
I am not convinced this is actually the law. You can parrot that it is, but it does not seem relevant at all to the embargo laws. An American buying a product in an American store has nothing to do with an embargo as far as I can tell. If it does, please show me proof of this sort of thing happening elsewhere. .
Buddy I went through export regulations and compliance training for my company even though I am in software development and never come into contact with clients or potential clients. I don't even to do direct tech support. All my contacts with clients go through tech support group. Still I had to take the training, and one important thing was that if I know the product is going to be exported to a banned country, I should stop the sale. Straw purchases for export to Iran or North Korea was specifically mentioned.
You may think the law is dumb, and decide to vote for people who promise to repeal it (good luck finding such a candidate in either Dem or Rep parties). But the fact is, it is the law as of today.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
No, you didn't. But your lack of reading comprehension is really showing. I suggest looking up the word "if", and perhaps finding some pages that explain how this curious word is used.
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
Hey USA people (not American), don't worry it's just another free commercial from Apple! You should know better, because you are bombarded 24 hours per day with similar shiiiit.
PROHIBITED DESTINATIONS
The U.S. holds complete embargoes against Cuba, Iran, North Korea, Sudan, and Syria
The exportation, reexportation, sale or supply, directly or indirectly, from the United States, or by a U.S. person wherever located, of any Apple goods, software, technology (including technical data), or services to any of these countries is strictly prohibited without prior authorization by the U.S. Government. This prohibition also applies to any Apple owned subsidiary or any subsidiary employee worldwide.
So the Apple Store was acting in accordance with U.S. policy. But the real issue, in my mind, is that there are western companies that sell hardware and software directly to repressive regimes that let them spy on their citizens. For instance, the Silicon Valley based company NetApp sold a storage system to Bashar al-Assad's regime in Syria. The system allows Syria to archive and search through emails they intercept from their citizens. Assad has been engaged in a brutal war against his own people that has resulted in the loss of 10,000 lives, including the slaughter of women of children by regime-backed paramilitary organizations. This system helps Assad continue to repress his people by spying on the dissidents. That kind of technology transfer clearly does help a repressive regime and clearly does act in a way that's contrary to American values.
Dunno. there's just something f***ed up about U.S. policy when it's illegal for a teenager to buy an iPad for her cousin in one country, but somehow a U.S. company was able to sell equipment that helps the Assad regime pull citizens off the street to be tortured and killed.
The regulations mean Apple employees can not sell products if they know it is going to be exported to an embargoed country. The export regulation compliance training repeatedly stress, "do not make the call. kick the ball upstairs. If you think it can violate the embargo, pass the buck, and let someone higher than you make the call. "
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
I bet if they came in and said "I'm from Cuba and I'm buying this for my Cuban friend back home" it would have gotten the same result. It certainly should anyway.
Yes, I seriously want to know how many Cubans in Florida have been denied purchase of iProducts because they might send them to someone at home. If the answer is zero, then Apple has some explaining to do, it seems.
"Bigot."
Wait, really? Bigot for saying if you buy an Apple product you weren't thinking
Yes. Your hatred of Apple extends to anyone associated. Even simply buying a product. Clearly people buying a product costing 100s or 1000s of dollars have thought about it. You can't accept that not everyone is like you, and has different opinions. You're a bigot.
I'm from Spain. I got asked in a very patronizing tone "What country in South America are you from?" (Uh.. None?) and drilled about why we were using my wife's card to pay for an iPad if it was for me, whether it was a birthday present, etc, etc. My wife is a U.S. citizen, and we both left the store confused and angry at the treatment. Now I understand why it was done, but it doesn't make it any better. It actually just confirms the profiling, just because I have an accent he couldn't place, even if we were both caucasians with with pale skin and blue eyes.
So yeah, it is done to spanish speaking people, and it is both anger-inducing and humilliating. And he was an inmigrant too, with a really thick New Zealand accent.
She wouldn't even need to go to another store. She could have just walked over to another clerk, and not mention that she was buying it for export to Iran.
As long as the clerk doesn't know, it's not illegal for the clerk to sell to her.
(It is, of course, still illegal for her to buy it with the intention of exporting it to Iran.)
Ah, yes, the AC who is an expert on US trade law.
Is that Dick Cheney posting again...?
Perhaps you should learn to code. Try taking out an "if" statement in your program and see how it runs :D
Apple doesn't want a gray market for it's products, for a number of reasons.
Before the iPhone was as international as it is today, every other device was being bought by exporters and sent out of the US. Apple expended a great deal of effort in stopping this, refusing to process multiple phones on a single credit card or to a single name for example (the registers/easypays would literally refuse to process the transaction). They also ingrained in their sales associates that exporters should be denied a sale by any LEGAL means.
So when the girl walked into the store and stated that she was going to export the device, there wasn't any way the associate was going to sell it to her. Don't think a manager wasn't consulted, I assure you one was. ESPECIALLY if someone walked in and tried to film. That sort of thing gets emailed up the chain to district managers.
You will not find a more liberally minded group of people than Apple, low level retail employees included. But they are not libertarians and they will never be. They are particular about everything, and that includes making sure people in a market they are targeting get a fair chance to buy the device without gray market inflation.
Yes. Imagining any sort of "We don't serve ___" signs in ANY shop windows is chilling.
Bad Summary. The person buying the iPad was trying to get it as a gift for a family member living in Iran. In short, she was trying to export it to Iran and that is what the basis of a refused sale was for.
What's bullshit to me is that everyone is raising such a fuss based on ONE side of this story--the person who was supposedly aggrieved. Believe it or not, not everyone in Georgia is stupid, including employees at Apple stores. I have to point out that for all of the sound and fury going on, the employee did the right thing here. The girl does admit that their intention was for her uncle to take the iPad back to Iran with him, which is illegal. I suspect, and think I even read somewhere, that they let the employee know that the intention was to take the iPad back to Iran. If this is the case, then the employee was entirely correct in not selling the iPad to the would-be customer, because if he reasonably thought that it was going to be taken back to Iran, that would have not only been directly against Apple's policy, but it would have been illegal.
So no, this doesn't mean that everyone who speaks Korean or Spanish or whatever--even Farsi--is going to be refused service. But if you let the salesperson know that it's going to be going back to North Korea, Cuba, or Iran, then it's not unreasonable to expect them to refuse to sell you stuff. And yes, I know that she's saying now that she didn't tell the employee that it was going back to Iran. I suppose that some folks are probably willing to believe that wholesale without knowing the whole story.
If you don't like the law, then get your congresscritters to change it. If you don't like Apple's policy (which clearly states, "The exportation, reexportation, sale or supply, directly or indirectly, from the United States, or by a U.S. person wherever located, of any Apple goods, software, technology (including technical data), or services to any of these countries is strictly prohibited without prior authorization by the U.S. Government"), then write to One Infinite Loops and ask them to change it. As it is, though, stop giving the poor employee just trying to do his job to the best of his ability a bunch of unwarranted grief.
Shit, I don't even like Apple, but trying to equating this poor schmuck who did what he was supposed to to racists bigots is sickening me. What the hell alternative do you propose? I suppose you'd prefer it if I could go into any Apple store, tell the clerk that I'd like to order 50 iPads to take to Cuba to sell on the gray market at 50% markup, they should just say, "Gee golly, okay, I'll go get them!" because to do anything else wouldn't be their business? If not, what's the goddamn difference, and how would you propose the law actually be maintained both in letter and in spirit?
Don't matter what race, you can discriminate against nationalities just as easily. We stripped the Japanese-American citizens of their properties, virtually all their rights including due process, and interned them in POW camps during WWII. Right after 9/11, the anti-Middle-Eastern hated and phobia lead to people killing Arab-Americans, but there were also fatal attacks against Mexicans, Native Americans, Indian Nationals, and pretty much anybody who might be mistaken for an Arab. There's a lot of fear, and racist phobia among Americans just boiling under the surface. A recent poll showed that in a number of places in the U.S. (particularly in the deep South and Mid-West) that there's a real and easily measurable backlash against having a black President (in fact, in the states for which this is true the 3-6% disadvantage Obama has due to ethnicity will automatically give his opponent the equivalent of a home state advantage.)
Americans are still dealing with race, creed, color, religion and preference, and though we keep making headway, there is still plenty of work to be done to remove prejudice and intolerance from our society. Today its Arabs. Tomorrow, Chinese?
"African-America" is a race. "Iran" is a country.
Original statement: "question. is this iranian apple employee also prevented and prohibited from purchasing apple products?"
My response: "Only if she tells the person about to sell it to her that she intends to send it to her relative in Iran."
My response is an if statement. It has two possible valuations based on whether the if condition is met. In answering the question, I state that they are prohibtied "only if" she tells them about it. So if she tells them about it, they are prohibited. If she does not, they are not. It is a valid if statement that takes the condition about whether they know or not into consideration. The statement has absolutely no legal fallacy no matter what - it is a valid statement in both situations.
Do you fucking get it now, or are you so mentally defective that you still can't comprehend something that I could in 3rd grade when I started programming?
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
It is a valid statement in both situations.
Oh certainly! I never questioned your grammar skills :D If only all grammatically correct sentences made sense...One can hope I suppose.
The clerk actually prevented HIMSELF from violating the law, too, as he would be personally liable, knowing that she was going to export it.
Of course, he opened Apple up to a civil suit for discrimination, most likely. Damned if he did, damned if he didn't.
The government is the one's who imposed these rules.
The legislators made the rules.
The people elected the reps.
Apple's employees merely enforce them as required.
*sigh* I logged on to the slashdot to read something interesting, and all I get is a story about one person being slighted by the actions of one other person. Who cares? This isn't sweeping policy on Apple's part. It was one person acting out. I'd really just like my three minutes back please.
From the article, "The iPad was to be a gift for her cousin who lives in Iran." That's re-exporting. Had the Apple customer knowingly sold the iPad to a person who stated they would re-export it to Iran, it could have resulted in fines for Apple and jail time for him. Good for the employee not doing something stupid.
My job forces me to understand ITAR. Due to ITAR, we have a policy that prohibits interactions with anyone who is a citizen of the group E restricted countries. We also have restrictions about the types of interactions we can make for a non group E national who is currently in a group E country. Ignoring ITAR is a good way to get fired and land in a federal pound you in the ass prison.
That's silly. How do you know any Cubans attempted to buy iPads to send home. Do you really think that Apple hates people that speak Farsi? Talk about a chip on your shoulder........
Go to Dell's website and check out just some random laptop. Put a check in that you are going to export it.
Firearms dealers cannot under penalty of law sell you a firearm if they have any reason to believe that it is not for you, or may be exported in a manner not in accordance law.
Apple's responsibility may not end where you think. On an individual level the Feds don't care (unless they are actively following a subject already), but in the case where sold a large number of units that were illegally exported, yes Apple would be investigated, and if they employees where knowing selling unit in said manner there would be legal consequences.
In this case though, the Apple employee had no idea that she was going to give anything to Iran. That came out only later. And here's another slice from a news article:
"A second Iranian American interviewed in the report also said he was barred from purchasing something at an Apple store in the Atlanta area when he was helping an Iranian student buy an iPhone. Zack Jafarzadeh said he and the friend were speaking Farsi when the sales rep denied their purchase. "We never talked about him going back to Iran or anything like that," Jafarzadeh said, according to the report."
Bky, man you are a clueless fucking idiot.
Here is a sample of Oklahoma law, first I could dig up, but every state has similar laws.
35:30-29-37.1. Ammonium
Nitrate Security
(a) Ammonium nitrate storage shall be secured to provide reasonable
protection against
vandalism, theft, or
unauthorized access.
(b) Fertilizer retailers shall obtain the followi
ng regarding any sale of ammonium nitrate:
(1) Date of sale;
(2) Quantity purchased;
(3) License number of the purc
haser's valid state or federal
driver’s license, or other
picture identification card number approved
for purchaser identi
fication by the
Board; and
(4) The purchaser's name, current
physical address, and telephone number.
23
(c)
Records created pursuant to this rule s
hall be maintained for a minimum of two years
on a form or using a format
set forth by the Board.
(d) Any retailer of ammonium nitrate may refuse to sell to any person attempting to
purchase ammonium nitrate out
of season, in unusual quant
ities, or under suspect
purchase patterns.
You should read the story.
She said flat-out "this is a gift for my cousin in Iran." The actual money for the purchase was coming from her Uncle, who is Iranian not American. She was present to translate, not buy the product.
If she'd been a little savvier she would have said "this is a gift for me," and then there probably wouldn't have been a problem.
Microsoft's (near) monopoly in consumer operating systems, office suites, and corporate messaging means their only competition in these areas is the previous versions of their own software. Maybe this has caused a culture of mediocrity through the entire company?
I really shouldn't have used someone else's email address for this account.
Flamebait? I can see some Apple fans got mod points today and would like to censor.
No, someone who doesn't like reading dumbshit comments got mod points today and put it where it belongs.
IRANIANS are NOT Arabs. Everyone who upvoted you should have their Slashdot accounts suspended.
Homo sapiens (capital for genus, lowercase for the species) is not a race, it is a species. Actually present day humans belong to the sub-species Homo sapiens sapiens, the only surviving sub-species of Homo sapiens. The extinct one is Homo sapien neanderthalis, their common ancestor was Homo sapien archaic. Race is recognized subdivision of a species, equivalent to breeds in other animals. So yes, Caucasian, Negroid, Mongolian are races. Jewish is not a race.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
I don't get it. Which part of the sensitive technology iPad contains you deny to Iranians in Apple Stores that they cannot get from communist China where the iPad is manufactured?
This whole "sensitive technology" banning in common consumer market... that just makes common Iranians feel bad because they are Iranians, nothing else.
Would you be able to claim victory with all that Windows-based state-sponsored spyware Stuxnet and Flame if it were not for commercial companies (Siemens) breaking your funny rules and installing export-regulated Windows directly into nuclear facilities? ( www.microsoft.com/exporting/faq.htm ) Did you notice, that nobody says a word against Siemens ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet ) but some common no-name Iranian (slash American)... Big money different rules?
Well, I've got to get back to work. When I stop rowing, the slave ship just goes in circles.
The law is explicit. It is illegal to sell technology to Iran. And the law is explicit that if you know the technology will be exported, you cannot sell it.
I know you're trying to draw a moral parallel. But this case is specifically against the law. Other cases you can describe may not be.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
Never failing to impress me go to the US were acceptance means your white and any IQ over 80 means your a geinus.
Citation needed.
After overhearing customer Sahar Sabet speaking Farsi, an Apple salesperson, who is also of Iranian descent
It is in the first paragraph of the article linked to by the summary. The first link. Basically The saleperson understood Farsi and based on what the customer said decided not to sell her an IPad. The salesperson is not doing interviews because of corporate policy at Apple. So they can't defend themselfs on blogs. I don't know about the other incident you spoke of. Hearsay and rumor isn't the best way to judge people or companies.
The problem here is not whether she was Iranian or what she would eventually do with the ipad, she is a US citizen and this is not minority report, you can't take measures before the crime has been committed based on speculation about what the person is planning to do with it. Is it a crime to sell goods to Iranians citizens? I don't think so, you are not breaking the law while those goods stay in the US.
There, you happy now?
Whether he overheard her saying it was intended for export, or he just hated her for all the usual group hate reasons that some people think is the answer to all questions, he *in fact* prevented a crime, and probably prevented himself from being an accessory to that crime.
I do, and yes, I would.
I'm gay, and couldn't care less about churches, etc. getting exemptions for not performing gay marriages where they are legal (and soon will be everywhere). If someone doesn't want to serve me, then I don't want to give them my business.
Here's the kicker, though - if she had even tried to buy a computer in her home country, let alone put up a stink, she probably would have had her hands cut off or be publicly flogged, or even worse - especially as a woman. Thank goodness we are better than that - perhaps that's why she should be an American if that's what she truly wants to be, and not bait the hook by speaking certain languages while doing business transactions.
Some people say that if apple know that the ipad was going to go to iran they had to refuse to sell. So if I say: "I will buy a random ipad to a random ipad owner and send it to Iran", does that force aple to stop selling ipad ?
1. I despite apple.
2. apologies for the horrid link but here it is
http://partnerdirect.dell.com/sites/channel/Terms%20and%20Conditions/Dell%20-%20PartnerDirect%20Terms%20and%20Conditions%20EN%20EMERGING%20COUNTRY.pdf
to quote that document from Dell
Accordingly, we hereby agree: -that we will not transfer, export, or re-export, directly or
indirectly, any Product(s) acquired from Dell to Cuba, Iran, North Korea, Sudan, and/or Syria, or
any nationals thereof, or to any other country subject to restriction under applicable laws and
regulations, and that we are not located in, under the control of, or a national or resident of any
such country;
('we agree' as in 'we the person buying the product').
Found via a a google search for "re exporting dell products to iran" as the first result.
Or obvious reasons... AC. I was an employee there for 3 years. This was at the Apple Store North Point, and the
Current manager is Beth Mercer.
Yes, this policy sucks. Yes, I myself had to enforce it sometimes. Our managers informed us that yes, we have trade embargos with Iran/Cuba etc and if a person mentioned they were from there/were heading back we could not sell to them.
Yes, stupid, I know they could easily lie. In fact.. We've even told them that before. The catch is an Apple employee can NOT knowingly sell to someone who indicated they were taking the device back to Iran. Period. If you lie to me that's not
My fault.
Also, as a long-time employee that was involved in training, I'll call bullshit on the "heard them speaking Farsi". Have you been in that store? It's FREAKING LOUD. No... I'd bet money on this being a highly unpleasant customer that mentioned their home country and this was the last straw.
despite my inability to type I do, in fact despise apple.
I see from the linked article this person attends UGA.... I would be remiss not to ask WHAT'S THE GOOD WORD?
If you have a problem with this then you should go talk to the US State Department, the White House, the governments of most western countries, and the UN.
Umm ...
It's true that the US state department, the White House, govs of most western countries are all in this "don't sell nothing to Iran" pact, I do not think UN ever issue any order prohibiting selling iPAD to Iranian
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
You could do the same with anyone speaking Korean
I'd be careful with this one. There is virtually no difference between North and South Korean (think American and British English only even more alike). In order to differentiate between them, you'd need to be fluent in at least one of them and know which handful of words they no longer share. Even then you've no idea if the person if Chinese-Korean, or a North Korean refugee.
but if this was being purchased for scurrilous reasons, couldn't Iranian intelligence go to, say, anywhere else to buy an iPad? I know that the employee is bound by Apple rules, but still. How much of this is Iranian vs. Iranian beef? Or, I'm sorry, Persian vs. Iranian beef?
This unbiased moderation brought to you by the Porcine Aviation Group!
They're selling to a US citizen. What happens after that is none of Apple's business.
Customer: "I need a gun so my friend can finally kill that bitch ex-wife of his that's been trying to bleed him dry. He can't buy it because he's got a felony conviction or twelve for various assaults against her."
Gun store owner: "So... you aren't going to use the gun for an illegal purpose, you're just going to give it to someone who isn't allowed to have it so they can do something illegal with it?"
Customer: "Yes."
Gun store owner: "Well, I don't think I can sell it to you, because you're just going to give it to your friend, who isn't supposed to have it, so he can do something bad with it."
bhagwad: "You're selling to a US citizen. What happens after that is none of your business." *Kermit arm flailing*
If Apple (and by extension, one of its employees), knowingly participates in the commission of a criminal act by allowing what's tantamount to a straw purchase, they can reasonably assume themselves to be in a very actionable position. Whether the employee would have any legal action taken against him or punitive action by Apple against him is purely theoretical and irrelevant. What matters is that it's reasonable for the employee and for Apple to assume that if they have knowledge that someone will violate the law with their product, they have some liability if they proceed with the sale.
We aren't talking about what someone might do with a computer or a car or whatever; we're talking about what someone said they were going to do with it. The guy in the example above doesn't have to drag his friend and the ex-wife into the gun owner's store to prove he's actually telling the truth. If that gun store owner sells the guy the gun and the ex-wife gets shot with it, he may (and should) be held liable for the sale.
-- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
Except that no one told the Apple employee that it was going overseas. That only came out later.
in GEORGIA (Deep South Georgia, not Mustachestan Georgia, right?) one well-off American makes a comment that gives the store clerk (another American, of similar ethnic origin) reason to believe that the purchase intended will lead to a crime. the store clerk then follows the Federal law (albeit, in perhaps a somewhat picayune interpretation) and denies the sale -- well within the rights of the store. And several people claim VICTIM because the first American has to go to Best-buy to buy an iPad? it happened in GEORGIA. is this really the most racist event we can find? Georgia? really?
How do you know any Cubans attempted to buy iPads to send home
Given the amount of Cubans in the US, and particularly in Florida, it would be a miracle if none of them attempted to buy iPhones/iPads.
Your "to send home" has no bearing on this - the Apple store employees who stopped the sale had no evidence of this at the time of attempted purchase, so if they presume this of a legally resident Iranian and an American citizen by Iranian heritage, by logic they should presume the same of Cuban residents an American citizens of Cuban descent who want to buy iPhones or iPads. To do otherwise would be racial profiling and prejudice.
Are you suggesting that it should be that way? I think there is a good case to be made that law enforcement should be left to the people our society employs in that capacity. I skimmed your homepage and gather that's a consistent stand for you to take.
If that's all you were trying to say, then it doesn't add much to the conversation since it has been said before and many times and in many ways. Most of the posters had more passion or more information to add to the discussion. In most of your 31 posts in fact, you had more to add.
I'd hope you've read enough of the comments here to realize there is at least a common belief that selling something comes with an obligation to refuse sales when you have knowledge the buyer intends to break the law. I'm going to assume that with 31 posts, you know that, so your stance is that the US policy is wrong or that Apple is not following it correctly.
For background, lets take a couple quotes from the featured articles:
and then this:
In a related but not featured article, we see:
Consider that the sales clerk had reason to believe from the statement of the buyer that the buyer was a citizen of Iran. The sales clerk could reasonably assume that somebody that said they were from Iran would take the purchase with them back to Iran when they returned to where they said they were from. The fact that the buyer intended to do something that was illegal with it that didn't match the incorrect assumption of the seller just clouds the issue.
I think the best approach by Apple would be to modify their policy to include a list of questions to be asked if they were refusing a sale, but I think you've taken this as a little more personal than it was intended. The clerk was following US policy based on what he understood from what the buyer told him.
B) Eliminate all the stupid users. This is frowned upon by society.
"we don't serve you because you mentioned something illegal."
Last I checked Iranian wasn't a race but a nationality. Now if they refused Iraqis as well then maybe they are prejudiced against Arabs. Still, I'm sure they're only trying to comply with the law. If you're so outraged you should vent your anger on the idiots who made the stupid law. In any case, if your only goal here is to hate on Apple, as I suspect it is, have at it. No logic required for that.
Close enough.
I consider it, and your entire post, irrational hatred. I'm a little different about these things anyway. If I go in a store and they don't want me to buy something I am more than content to go somewhere else. Elated to actually. I'm old fashioned like that. I think they should kiss my ass, not the other way around as most seem to think nowadays. Many stores act like their consenting to sell me something is a favor and I should be grateful they allow me to give them money. If you enjoy hating Apple go ahead. They deserve it anyway even if they are innocent in this case.
Like most Americans I probably have some knee jerk prejudice against Iranians. No doubt some of that is from our media.
Regardless, I've gotten to know a few Iranians through work over the years. The wamest, most intelligent people I have ever met.
Please do not confuse the Iranian government and their noise for who Iranians are.
"If you enjoy hating Apple go ahead."
I just love that demanding evidence for why this is not just a racistine policy is hating Apple irrationally. Hating Apple is what I usually do - usually for less good reason (although good enough, in my book). This is not that. The simple fact is, if this is demanded by law, it must happen elsewhere. It isn't possible that it has not occurred elsewhere. No one, not one person, has shown it to have occurred in a single store at a single point in time. Yet we have two cases of it happening at Apple stores. No one with any legal background has stated this case is indeed required by law, although quite a few who think themselves to be have spouted off to the effect.
Bottom line: this has only happened at Apple stores, this has happened twice at Apple stores, it has been caught on video, and it has happened in no other store. You might not draw any conclusions from that, but I do.
Great Intellect...
And the clerk refused, you know what would have happened.
The clerk would have been fired on immediately.
twa. i mean , you are so racist you dont deserve the last t.
Um... alright. Where did I even mention Arabs? The word "Arab" is not even present in my post. Please at least learn to read before insulting people for no good reason.
Great Intellect...
Brought back a tv crew? For fucks sake. I guess she thought she was being discrimenated against and being treated unfairly because she was from the middle east and thought she was would be on the news with her self righteous bullshit fighting against a racist corporate machine or some such shit. When in fact it is against US GOVERMENTAL LAW, so if she wants to get all up in arms then she needs to with the government since they made the law. All the apple employee did was follow their rules and apple in turn was following US rules.
I hate americans who dont understand what a law means.
Oh and she isnt iranian american. Thats a bullshit term as much as african american is bullshit. If she was born in iran then she is iranian, if she was born in america then she is american. You dont see me running around demanding to be called a irish, german, scottish, australlian american just because I have ancestors from those countries do you? Besides there are people born there that arent of the typical physical types, just like africa has milions of white people but you dont see them called african americans. She is iranian, nothing wrong with that but its the end of the fucking politically correct story.
Ipad buy you!
End export restrictions. End the drug war.
bky you're an idiot, and obviously never worked in high tech, or else your compliance training is out of date. Anyone who has done any work in the tech field has gotten the standard "no sexism, no bribery, no exports, have ethics" slide shows. And just for you: Intel, Dell, AMD, HP all have such slide decks and I have personally seen them.
Thats why the guy did not want to sell it to her. Technology found in Ipads, your joking right? Its an apple product able to be accessed via the borg center I mean by apple so they should be encourage to sell them to all enemies. Also this trade restriction is for anyone trading with the country if they have an issue they would do so at the airport. Hi tech maxi pad give me a break apple idiots shine again, no wonder your underpaid and exploided retards don't have a real job. Not to worry you libertards yet its okay for an illigal that clearly is breaking laws to just walk in here and get treatment in hospitals that all end up paying, yet a woman that is going to school in a non muslim country can not by an ipad cause of this BS. The woreld really needs a banana company to compete with apple its BSD with clean up UI and a huge price tag. Idiots
Whatever you consider it. You are being an asshole. Try dropping the holier than thou attitude and read what people are saying.
You haven't heard of it happening elsewhere doesn't mean it hasn't. And even if it hasn't, so what? That's not evidence of corporate bias. You're reading too much into it.
looks like you have a new target. good luck with that.
applesauce, bitches.
It doesn't matter what the regulations are. A seller can refuse to sell anything to a buyer for any non-discriminatory reasons. I've refused to sell stuff to people because they were being jerks. I'm sure I will again.
I don't respond to AC's.
Wow, you sure post a lot in this discussion.
Also, you have mentioned several times that the would-be customer claims that the clerk didn't know but that's not proof that the clerk didn't know what was going on. Possible explanations include but aren't limited to "clerk knows farsi" and "customer is one of those people who think no one notices what they're saying if they don't say it directly at them".
Greylisting is to SMTP as NAT is to IPv4
Last I checked Iranian wasn't a race but a nationality.
That might depend on where you are. The UK Home Office says
(1) Race includesâ"
(a) colour;
(b) nationality;
(c) ethnic or national origins.
I'd be surprised if the US doesn't have similar definitions.
I think we SHOULD send iPads to Iran.
Millions of them.
All equipped with a copy of the various Angry Birds releases and Lazy Snakes.
The nuclear scientists will waste so much damn time playing these games, it'll set back the Iranian nuke program by decades.
I was going to say it if no one else does... come on... Apple store employee? If you want to have fun... bring a MacBook running Windows into the Apple Store and claim to have a problem. It'll take about 5 seconds at the genius bar to start getting a guy spewing one made up line of shit after the next. I do that sometimes just to have some fun :) Here's a sales rep at the store who clearly doesn't understand how those laws work and wants to seem self important by pretending he does.
Now... for a little fun... I'm an American who lives in Norway. I speak Norwegian.... very badly... but I'm fluent in bad Norwegian, so that's ok. When I travel to the states with my family to visit the grandparents, when we go out to eat, it's common for us to speak Norwegian at the dinner table. One two separate occasions, I have heard these comments :
- (Two middle aged ladies in an American whisper... meaning whisper sound, but loud enough to be heard in the next county) "I can't believe these Germans... they come to this country and don't even have the decency to learn the language.. and they speak it with their children! It's disgusting" at which point I respond "Excuse me madam, it's Norwegian, not German. I was born at the hospital down the road and currently live in Norway and my children speak English just fine. Unlike you however who prefer to share your conversations with everyone, we prefer to be civilized".
- (Two rednecks in the south) Damn Mexicans don't even know how ta' speak English.
Funny thing is... most Norwegians don't consider me able to speak their language haha
Shit sherriff, I didn't tell them to leave the lunch counter because they was black, even though that's illegal.
I told them them to leave because they'd scare the white folks off, and because I'd have to clean the seat and table. Bad for business. And our folks and their folks, have bad relations, you know?
>This has to do with the US embargo on Iran, which includes selling goods to anyone in the US that could take them back to Iran. This is law
You are an ignorant, racist pig. This is not the law; fuck you, you racist pig. Fuck you again. Fuck you in the ass until you bleed and die, slowly, you racist pig. Got it? Then resurrect your pathetic ignorant ass, and slowly die bleeding on a bed of nails while being repeatedly waterboarded. Die. Slowly. Die.
Am i missing something? how can an ipad assist terrorism in any fashion? Also Iran has not invaded any other country in over 200 years.
There apparently isn't a problem getting an ipad or iphone in Iran at all. http://theuniversnews.com/tehran-iran-apple-products-are-sold-despite-u-s-sanctions.html
who prays for Satan? Who in 18 centuries has had the humanity to pray for the 1 sinner that needed it most? ~Mark Twain
99% of the time the export restrictions of USA is just a way to tunnel business to US company's.
For example. A customer in Iran can not get a Juniper VPN router since Juniper adapt to the US export policy or they will have a hard time to sell to US.
To solve that, contact Cisco that sells the same IPSec "comercial grade" cryptos.....
The export restriction is only helping US company's to get more sales! (this is not a made up story, it is happening daily i know since i have to handle this shit every day)
Big "evil" countries will still get the gear. Especially in the more and more globalized world.
In this specific case they only managed to stop the sales of 1 ipad. Go and ask Apple how many ipads they see with a IP originating from Iran or any other "restricted" country?
And the bozos at US goverment should start to think abit more what they are "stopping"...Is it a device to get people more on internet or a device to make nuclear weapons with?
phew! I did not know iPad could be used to build nuclear weapons!
Apparently the Apple Store employees just went through the same draconian export restrictions training class that my work place was subjected to. And yes, when in doubt for lots of technology, don't sell it.
Was the refusal appropriate? Depends on what corporate is telling the field sale team.
Is the training appropriate? That is another matter.
it's too bad that the employee was not practicing due diligence, rather being attentive to warnings of possible sting operations by FBI, DHS, excetera. good for him looking out for his job and his employer's ability to continue to operate in the area.
So, first she acknowledges on camera that she was planning to violate US law by supplying an Iranian national with banned equipment but you think she tells the truth when she wasn't talking about this in the store, presuming that nobody else would be able to understand her since she was speaking in Farsi?
You take your evidence rather randomly don't you?
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
So, you have TWO different accouts of Muslim criminals refusing to speak English in public who openly acknowledge planning to violate US export restrictions but take their word for it that when they spoke in Farsi, they weren't saying X despite someone else claiming they did. Gosh, I am odd, I do not take the word of a self-confessed would be criminal at face value. You do?
Anyway, why can't these Iranians buy some Muslim build technology instead? Protest a countries laws while fleeing there, to send gifts to the country you fled against the rules of your supposed new home country.
Considering this woman has friendly relations with a country that hangs people for drinking, I cannot really feel much sympathy when she feels the repression of another country's system when she is refused an iPad. Fix your own race/religion many troubles first before you start bitching about someone else.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Again, I will ask what I asked twice in this story already and have yet to receive: show me another company doing this in a comparable way (ie, people in an American store being denied a sale because they might send the item to Iran), and I'll maybe buy it.
Show me another store where you could get any TV crew to report it if it happened.
This is ridiculous, it's a freakin' iPad. We as the west are seriously doomed if we can not look beyond policies that do not concern us because we are locked-in in a 'the law is the law' framework. Laws do not exist for their own purposes, they exist with a certain intention in mind. The notion that a lowly Apple employee can decide whether or not someone should be able to buy a consumer product based on trade restrictions that do not really have these kind of transactions as a foundation of existence is silly at best. If Iran wants iPads, they'll get iPads.
Citizens have become non-thinking bureaucrats themselves, who are afraid of losing anything of value (a job, friends, opinions) so they interpret things in their life in a way that mimics authorities and public figures based on a narrative that is mostly incomplete, uninformed and rooted in fear. It takes away the responsibility you have as a human being to always balance rules, laws & purposes so you can always fall back on the excuse: i only did the bare minimum, i follow the rules i am not to be blamed for anything.
It is this fearfulness that is stifling the US & Western Europe. It is the arbitrary act of 'pulling rank' combined with minimal mental effort that has the machine grinding to a halt. The qualities of the electorate trickle up to the politicians and vice versa.
It is the fear of admitting errors and being judged or being motivated by mere power that has us making stupid decisions as a people.
This must stop.
No they wouldn't be liable, and the proof of that is that consumer services told her she could indeed buy and apologized to her in the end.
The US Department of Treasury seems to disagree, specifically in this document about exporting to Iran:
In general, a person may not export from the U.S. any goods, technology or services, if that person knows or has reason to know such items are intended specifically for supply, transshipment or reexportation to Iran.
You may or may not like the law but don't hate the Apple or their employees for covering their asses on this.
He should've just sold the iPad to the kid, have the TSA take it at airport sec (unless it was an ugly kid they usually only search the hot ones) so we could bitch more at /. bout TSA instead of US laws/Apple etc...
Every day, 100 foot wooden dhows travel between Iran and Dubai, UAE. Some carry horses and cars. Dubai's electronic stores are filled with Apple products. You do the math.
Organization: alphabetical, sometimes numerical or messy
Looking down your nose and feeling superior to others is not hatred. We may have evidence of hatred of Apple, but we do not have evidence of hatred of those who buy apple.
Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
Buying and gifting (you know, like you do at christmas) is no more exporting than going on holiday is slavery.
Apple don't sell guns and the citizen wasn't trying to buy one. Nor saying "I'm gonna use it to kill someone".
"Sabet says she later called Apple's corporate customer relations, where an employee reportedly apologized and told her she could buy an iPad online."
Obviously we do not know exactly what she said when she called customer relations. Did she say "he refused to sell me an iPad because I am Farsi"? In that case I would expect that they apologize, that this shouldn't have happened, and if she wants an iPad but doesn't want to go to the same store (which would be understandably), she could buy on online. If she said "I want to buy an iPad to send to my cousin in Iran and they refused to sell it", then she would have got a different answer.
They told her to go online and do it. She is still breaking the law by exporting it, but they don't know about and won't be liable.
For the millionth time you stupid fuck, it's the words she used, not the language she used. Jesus Christ, do you have any capacity for fucking thought left, or did it all left your head when you started foaming at the mouth?
Then by that reasoning, a clerk should still sell alcohol to someone even though the customer told him that he was going to go sell it to minors?
You can't do shit on an ipad anyway other than play angrybirds. Everytime I see an ipad user they are just using it for dicking around anyway.
Wait, ignore all the flap about the rightness or wrongness of the sale. That's just noise. The signal here is that there's a ban on selling ipads to Iran and nobody's laughing their ass off at the Department of Twitchiness over it.
I mean, isn't that the MacGuffin in Iron Sky? What are those dastardly Persians going to do, launch a giant flying saucer?
Srsly. You guys and your export restrictions. It was funny back with the PGP t-shirts, and it's just as funny now.
> to purchase the product and violate US law (and apple policy)
According to Forbes, items that can be purchased at retail do not require an export license.
While the guy at Forbes does seem to say that, he links to the US Treasury's site which states:
EXPORTS TO IRAN - In general, unless licensed by OFAC, goods, technology, or services may not be exported, reexported, sold or supplied, directly or indirectly, from the United States or by a U.S. person, wherever located, to Iran or the Government of Iran...
In general, a person may not export from the U.S. any goods, technology or services, if that person knows or has reason to know such items are intended specifically for supply, transshipment or reexportation to Iran.
There doesn't seem to be "any goods, technology or services except those that can be purchased at retail" language there.
http://www.bis.doc.gov/licensing/bis_reexport_controls.pdf
Are there any special restrictions I should know about?
You may not reexport an item subject to the EAR to a party whose export privileges
have been denied by BIS. Information on parties subject to denial orders is
provided on the BIS Web site at www.bis.doc.gov.
Guidance to the Commerce Department’s Reexport Controls
5
Please note that U.S. persons may be subject to additional restrictions under the
EAR. See section 744.6 of the EAR. U.S. persons may also be subject to restrictions
under other U.S. Government regulations, such as those issued by the Office of
Foreign Assets Control of the U.S. Department of the Treasury or other U.S.
Government departments or agencies.
Why should you comply with reexport license requirements?
The Department of Commerce has enforcement and protective measures available
to it to ensure that recipients of items subject to the EAR comply with the reexport
license requirements of the EAR. If the Department of Commerce determines that
you have not complied with these requirements and restrictions, it may institute
administrative enforcement proceedings, resulting in the possible imposition of civil
penalties and/or denial of your eligibility to receive U.S. exports (part 764 of the
EAR).
Where to apply for a reexport license?
If your reexport requires a license and is not eligible for a License Exception, you
may apply for a reexport license electronically through the Simplified Network
Application Process (SNAP). You may find the basic information on the SNAP
program on the BIS Web site at www.bis.doc.gov. If you have not submitted an
application electronically before, you must first complete a “PIN” request package.
Life takes interesting turns, but the most interest is when you're off the beaten path.
Persecution complex much? You got modded down on this as well as many other posts for a couple of reasons
1) You make personal insults
2) You ignore facts of the case that don't support your views
3) You go on non-sequiturs like asking if Best Buy has refused
4) You equate your sense of morality on the law with the clerk's interpretation of the law.
5) You yell the same thing over and over as if posing it enough times makes it correct.
You may disagree with the clerk's actions, but he thought he was doing right and it had nothing to do with the ethnicity of the buyer. Apple did in fact sell the iPad.
It is irrelevant whether zero other stores have done similar or if a million did. You may disagree with the law, but it is the law and believe it or not people have different opinions than you.
You come across as an angry person who has no room for others' opinions. this is why you've been modded to hell.
The language is called (in English) Persian, not Farsi. Calling it Farsi is like going around saying "Deutsch" instead of "German" or "Francais" instead of "French".
The real problem here is that the US thinks they have the right to tell another country what to do. Santions are an act of war. We have started another illegal war on another country. Cue the neo-cons...
Goyim and Gentiles = non-jews. Take a read:
http://www.waylanderskeep.com/2009/12/jewish-talmud-quotes/
****
1. Sanhedrin 59a: "Murdering Goyim is like killing a wild animal."
2. Abodah Zara 26b: "Even the best of the Gentiles should be killed."
3. Sanhedrin 59a: "A goy (Gentile) who pries into The Law (Talmud) is guilty of death."
4. Yebhamoth 11b: "Sexual intercourse with a little girl is permitted if she is three years of age."
5. Schabouth Hag. 6d: "Jews may swear falsely by use of subterfuge wording."
6. Hilkkoth Akum X1: "Do not save Goyim in danger of death."
7. Hilkkoth Akum X1: "Show no mercy to the Goyim."
8. Choschen Hamm 388, 15: "If it can be proven that someone has given the money of Israelites to the Goyim, a way must be found after prudent consideration to wipe him off the face of the earth."
9. Choschen Hamm 266,1: "A Jew may keep anything he finds which belongs to the Akum (Gentile). For he who returns lost property (to Gentiles) sins against the Law by increasing the power of the transgressors of the Law. It is praiseworthy, however, to return lost property if it is done to honor the name of God, namely, if by so doing, Christians will praise the Jews and look upon them as honorable people."
10. Szaaloth-Utszabot, The Book of Jore Dia 17: "A Jew should and must make a false oath when the Goyim asks if our books contain anything against them."
11. Baba Necia 114, 6: "The Jews are human beings, but the nations of the world are not human beings but beasts."
12. Simeon Haddarsen, fol. 56-D: "When the Messiah comes every Jew will have 2800 slaves."
13. Nidrasch Talpioth, p. 225-L: "Jehovah created the non-Jew in human form so that the Jew would not have to be served by beasts. The non-Jew is consequently an animal in human form, and condemned to serve the Jew day and night."
14. Aboda Sarah 37a: "A Gentile girl who is three years old can be violated."
16. Gad. Shas. 2:2: "A Jew may violate but not marry a non-Jewish girl."
17. Tosefta. Aboda Zara B, 5: "If a goy kills a goy or a Jew, he is responsible; but if a Jew kills a goy, he is NOT responsible."
18. Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 388: "It is permitted to kill a Jewish denunciator everywhere. It is permitted to kill him even before he denounces."
19. Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 348: "All property of other nations belongs to the Jewish nation, which, consequently, is entitled to seize upon it without any scruples."
20. Tosefta, Abda Zara VIII, 5: "How to interpret the word 'robbery.' A goy is forbidden to steal, rob, or take women slaves, etc., from a goy or from a Jew. But a Jew is NOT forbidden to do all this to a goy."
21. Seph. Jp., 92, 1: "God has given the Jews power over the possessions and blood of all nations."
22. Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 156: "When a Jew has a Gentile in his clutches, another Jew may go to the same Gentile, lend him money and in turn deceive him, so that the Gentile shall be ruined. For the property of a Gentile, according to our law, belongs to no one, and the first Jew that passes has full right to seize it."
23. Schulchan Aruch, Johre Deah, 122: "A Jew is forbidden to drink from a glass of wine which a Gentile has touched, because the touch has made the wine unclean."
24. Nedarim 23b: "He who desires that none of his vows made during the year be valid, let him stand at the beginning of the year and declare, 'Every vow which I may make in the future shall be null'. His vows are then invalid."
****
Jews appear to be more racist than anyone I've ever seen and it comes straight from their law rulebook the Talmud.
I work for one of the PC manufacturers who's products you see in just about every general electronic store in the US. It is part of the training for sales. When selling a system you ask the following:
1) Intended use
2) Final destination of system
If final destination is to an embargoed country, or you even suspect the answer is questionable (i.e. a home user buying Blade Servers). You are supposed to stop the sale until an investigation can occur. These are US laws, not corporate policy.
>Yes, I hate to say it, but from the facts given, the Apple employee was obeying the law.
G-d, another fucking idiot on /. What a surprise.
>It was illegal for her to buy it in order to send it to Iran.
No, it wasn't. It may be illegal to send such a product to Iran directly from the US. It is not illegal to purchase.
G-d, another fucking slashdotter who tells us that the law works the way he thinks it ought to work, not the way the law actually does work.
The post stated that It was illegal for her to buy it in order to send it to Iran. Those last words, which you omitted, are important. I'm sorry that you don't understand that yes, in the US legal system, intent makes a difference.
It is also illegal for the Apple employee to sell it to her if he believed that she was buying it with the intent to send it to Iran. In the US legal system it is not an excuse to say "I didn't break the export law, I merely sold something to a third party who broke the export law." Sorry, you may think that's not right, but nevertheless that's the way it works.
Now, you may say "he didn't actually know that; he was just guessing." Maybe. The article didn't ever tell his side of the story; I don't know what he knew or what he overheard-- and you don't either; his story might be quite different. In any case, though, no matter how he arrived at his knowledge, the girl admitted that her intent was to break the law.
If the prosecutor was nasty, the Apple employee could have faced charges of not merely breaking the export law, but conspiracy to break the law as well-- conspiracy is a more serious crime than merely breaking the law. (And, before you object, an accused don't have to discuss it with the other conspirators in order to be convicted. People have gone to jail after trying the defense "but I never even met the guy I'm accused of conspiring with.")
By the way, I find it amusing that you are unable to force yourself to type the word "God", while you have no problem with "fucking". Another fucking religious idiot on slashdot. I have this to say to you: God. Jehovah. Allah. Elohim. Yahweh. Jesus.
It's all color-of-law fueled by Rush Radio instead of Ad Council public service propaganda. We like to enforce the law before it's written in Georgia. Gets you brownie points with people who know less than you, but have more money :-) Eg. We have sheriffs and other LEO down here who actually think it would actually be against the law for them to favor legalization.
4. This has to do with the US embargo on Iran, which includes selling goods to anyone in the US that could take them back to Iran. This is law. This is not Apple acting out of nowhere. It's in their legal terms that states they follow US embargo laws. If you don't like them, tell your congressman to change US embargo law or to lift the embargo against Iran. Good luck with that.
You obviously have no idea what the law says.
But that doesn't prevent you from making an idiot out of yourself on the Internet.
hint: read the law
NO, This is a case of a person stating "When we said 'Farsi, I'm from Iran,' " That is when the sale was refused. They said they were from an embargoed country. They did not say they were US citizens, but from Iran. Based on the data he had available the store clerk did the right thing. And it did what that law was intended to do at that time prevent the export of US goods to an embargoed country. Which coincidentally was exactly what the girls intention was to do with it. Apple has the right to refuse service if they feel the sale will break law. This person was not refused service because they felt she was Muslim, Iranian or because she was a girl. But because Apple felt she was going to break the law and they are legally allowed to refuse service for that. If you want to decry freedom you have to live with it both ways. Apple has a right to refuse service because they want too as long as it does not violate federal law.
I think you asked more than twice. And I replied to you above, but I'll do so again here. Go to ANY US hardware (and quite a bit of software) manufacturer's web page, read the terms of sale you must click on to complete the purchase, and note the bit about not intending to export, or transfer to anyone intending to export, the device.
In this case the sale was in person, and has gotten a lot of publicity. Perhaps Apple employees are better trained than other retailers' employees. Perhaps it's rare for someone to be stupid enough to seek publicity for failing to commit a crime. Perhaps most news crews aren't dumb enough to run stories like this. Or perhaps it's just that Apple is the evil company du jour. The law, stupid as it is, is very clear regarding Apple's and Apple's employees' responsibilities.
Apple would have to know they are a US citizen to do that. Instead of the fact the girl stated directly " I'm from Iran,' which would obviously lead one to believe they are not a US citizen but from Iran. That is also discounting the possibility that the Apple employee may have overheard them talking about sending it to Iran as he was from Iranian decent and could have translated a Persian dialect.
A higher up made the call to sell to the girl, almost certainly after asking her whether she intended to send the iPad to Iran, at which point she lied and said no. The law is very clear. You can look it up.
Strictly speaking it should be happening at anyone who sells electronics.
That is what the law says. That no one else is enforcing it on video doesn't mean they don't have it in their agreement and won't refuse to sell to you.
You aren't allowed to sell to Iranian nationals or to anyone who will give it to an iranian national. If they're speaking farsi there's very good odds they're Iranian.
Also, EVERY company that does business within a country is obliged to comply with it's laws. Rules prohibit apple from selling iPads to Iranian nationals or to anyone who would transfer the product to an iranian national or re-export it to Iran, they are responsible for complying with said rules. Or else.
My point was anyone walking into a store speaking Korean you could demand they prove they are not from the peoples republic of Korea as nationals of said entity are forbidden from sales. Being a refugee from North Korea would still mean you are prohibited from buying an iPad as you are still a national of that country.
Speaking farsi by itself doesn't prevent you from buying an iPad. Being an Iranian national does.
Well,
You have all gun stores in the US. If a Mexican (or Chinese or Brazilian) walks in and says in it's native language he is going to buy a gun to 'fucking shut that motherfucker up', the salesman has the duty (no the right) to not sell him the gun.
While a rifle is arguably much more damaging than an iPad, the legal basis is the exact same.
Besides, if the girl REALLY wanted to just buy it, she would just leave and buy it someplace else (again, exactly like someone else trying to buy a gun).
Incidentally, I'm neither white nor American, so I don't think this was just discrimination by Apple.
Couldn't she simply go to another store, not speak farsi, and buy one?
I didn't know Apple Store employees were paid so well that they could make judgements like that? May be the employee was concerned that she was going to ship the iPad to Cuba?
People obviously don't know that Steve Jobs biological father was a Syrian American.
How pathetic this world has come to - the pettiness in society, the petty power tripping everywhere you go, the ignorance of geopolitical realities. Just retarded.
Hello! before jumping to conclusions and pulling out your ropes for the lynching should you should find out a few more facts?
"an Apple salesperson, who is also of Iranian descent,"
If there was discrimination is was between two people of the same heritage.
Maybe ready, FIRE, aim is a bad processes...
(Sorry for the O.T. discussion, but what we call something is often pertinent in how we perceive things, which is one basis of discrimination.)
Interesting point. I didn't know that, but it does raise a question I've had about such things.... Why do we call countries/languages, etc, by different names than those who natively live there?
I can understand it if we can't pronounce it, but Persian vs. Farsi.?
Deutsch vs. German, or Francais v. French?
If we did it interpersonally, it would be like some introducing themselves as Frank or Lisa, and us calling them Joe and Sally. That just seems a bit strange, at least, and some might find it offensive.
By the same token, though, we no longer call the land there, "Persia", so maybe since Persia no longer exists, calling the language Persian might be considered antiquated by some? Just a thought.
If you actually read the article from the news station the woman who was denied the iPad said specifically that the iPad was to be a gift for her family member who lives in Iran. You can not export certain products to Iran and other countries period.
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/customer-apple-store-denied-me-ipad-speaking-farsi/nPY4p/
"So she was surprised Thursday when an employee at the Apple Store inside North Pointe Mall in Alpharetta refused to sell an iPad to her and her uncle after overhearing them speaking Farsi. The iPad was to be a gift for her cousin who lives in Iran."
Though I must admit the sales persons would not have known that from speaking farsi and had no business denying the sale. He definitely racially profiled the customers.
So? You remind me of those people who think "discrimination" is like the world's worst thing, and that if they label _anything_ discrimination it must be bad.
He's a bigot. So am I. What now?
1000?
I don't have time to make a sig
I could just hear the twangy, whiny accent abaut whah we caiyant sayell yew one o' them thar iPad thangs, Ah'm sorry but yew maht be a turrist er sumthin'. The rank igorance and cowardice in this country is palpable and sickening.
Grar II
Nobody would have cared had someone at Walmart decided not to sell an iPad to an Iranian. Don't blame Apple for an expression of old southern bigotry.
The Walmart cashier won't give fuck who you are or what you use your Ipad for. By the way it just a fucking tablet Apple get over yourself nobody making Nuke out of an Ipad!
The answer to the question "is this iranian apple employee also prevented and prohibited from purchasing apple products?" is "Only if she [the customer] tells the person about to sell it to her that she intends to send it to her relative in Iran."
It is grammatically, ethically, legally, and logically a perfect and correct statement in every possible way.
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
Magically coincidental, isn't it? Sorry, but I'm just a little suspicious of the fact that every story on this mess of manufactured outrage lacks the other side of the story. I don't trust coincidences. So far as I'm concerned, she and her uncle were talking about how much shipping is to Tehran for an iPad when the Farsi-speaking employee overheard them.
If Apple (and by extension, its employees) has reason to believe the device will be sent, illegally, to a country with export restrictions levied against it, Apple (and its employees) has a legal duty to refuse the sale. In any case, I hope ICE is sitting there waiting for this dummy to show up at the UPS store with the iPad in hand and an Iranian address on the box.
Think about it: you're trying to ship a gift to a relative oversees. An employee at the store informs you (if you didn't know already) that it's illegal for you to send that product to that country without the express permission of the US Federal government. You come back with a news crew and explain to them how the mean store employee won't help you violate Federal law. When you're again explained how what you're trying to do is illegal, you then go home and call the company, still trying to accomplish what you've already been twice told is absolutely against Federal law. When you get your hands on the gift that you want to ship oversees in violation of Federal law, you call the news crew back to tell them.
This woman is a moron with no respect for the law and no common sense. Further, she's an instigator of manufactured outrage. I have zero sympathy for her. I hope she gets caught trying to ship the thing, I hope they confiscate it from her, and I hope they prosecute her to the fullest extent of the law.
-- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
Yet another reason not to buy apple - rotten to the core! Linux rulez!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This story really shows how Americans can be so stupid. How can she be judged by what language she was speaking. If I spoke Polish, then I must be from Poland. NO.... the clerk was just plan ignorant. I get that stuff all the time spending good old USA $2 bills - Clerk... Oh wait a minute sir..... Let me see if we take these.
I can say it wasn't by Apple, but I have been manufacture trained in export control. In a nutshell if you get the slightest vibe, verbal hint or any other indication from the potential customer that they may be trying to end run export controls, you don't sell/support/loan/exchange/etc them product. You decline and forward it up the chain. In this case the customer wanted to buy a product that would be sent to an export restricted country, by their verbal admission.
You don't have to agree with the law, but that is the current law and it has major teeth in Apple's case.
Export control has nothing to do with the immediate purchaser of the goods and everything to do with the final intended destination.
Isn't that nice. She gets "an apology" from some guy on the phone. Not from the employee who refused to sell to her, or anyone involved at that store. And then she's told "Well, just buy it online, what's the big deal?"
Hate to piss on the parade here, but actually Apple can deny sales to anyone they like. They're a private company. It might be rude, but there's no reason why they can't if they don't want to. And no, they don't need a reason.
Deja Moo: The distinct feeling that you've heard this bull before.
Collective punishment. And that's exactly why such laws should be ignored. Everybody can do even just as little as looking another way; if enough people realize it is just a geopolitical dick-size comparing and that the rank-and-file people on the "enemy side" are more similar to them than the members of their own government, despite being demonized by said government, the world will become a notch better. Even just as little as a plausibly deniable "not paying attention" is often enough.
Maybe it's the experience of being behind the Iron Curtain (and the subsequent change of geopolitical alliances and the friend-foe labels) that leads me to this opinion, but I strongly disagree that sanctions should hurt students and farmers. I don't care the least about government will, on either side, I just support the free and open market, and free access to consumer technology for everybody, even if it includes technology smuggling and violating of laws. Especially if said technology is common off-the-shelf stuff.
Some philosophers consider obeying a bad law to be unethical. This is one of the more clear-cut cases of such.
The United States is getting crazier every day.
I can't believe how stupid this "debate" is. I'm not aware of any law, forcing a business to DO business with anyone. If an employee chooses not to do business with someone, the customer has 2 options. Leave, or throw a fit. In this particular case, I find it hard to believe that there is any discrimination issue. Beyond that, I'm just terrified to see so much wasted effort on such a non-issue on slashdot. The end of our freedom will be marked with a supposedly free civilisation arguing over how we should be controlled, the responses to this issue sum that up quite nicely. Thank you all for being statist hack looting loosers. Good Day.
Any business in the United States has the right to refuse sale/service to anyone as long as such refusal is not based on color, creed, sex, religion, etc. Again, when the customer returned with a film crew, the sales person, manager, representative had the right to refusal again based on disrupting the business.
Sabet is a U.S. citizen and a student at the University of Georgia but the iPad was to be a gift for a cousin living in Iran.
They were planning on sending it OUT OF THE COUNTRY!!!
WOW!, That's truly funny! I am Iranian, living and working in Germany, traveling a lot to Tehran, US and Europe countries.
In our country Iran, I can buy whatever software and hardware including apple brand in their latest technology and the funnier is its cheaper than us!,
if you walk in one of compute stores in Tehran you can see many European are buying staff there just because they believe the price is cheaper for them and they can access to whatever they want easier than in their country.
well I really amazed that girl wanted to buy and then sending it to Iran and putting herself into a serious trouble, I don't believe it
To Prove, here is one of this link to one of this shops in Tehran: http://www.persianapple.com
(Don't forget to order one apple from there , Ha! )
But the sad fact is that apple store didn't sell an iphone (do we really consider it a high technology product!!??) to a us citizen
This shouldn't be a US government policy to not selling a childish apple product to a us citizen.
if it was the policy so why Samsung, Blackberry, Dell or other brands in US don't follow that policy
I am afraid it is what I call a Racist act from Apple,
we don't forget children abusing in apple factories, do we? here is some link to review it
http://www.neowin.net/news/apple-discover-91-children-employed-at-their-supplier-factories
http://ihscslnews.org/view_article.php?id=328
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/mar/30/apple-factories-china-foxconn-audit
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/29/foxconn-apple-factories-labor-violations_n_1389392.html
By the way, if you had problem getting an apple product from Iran in cheaper price leave me a message, when I come back to Tehran I can buy one for you, normally in November !
LOL I am Iranian, living and working in Germany, traveling a lot to Tehran, US and Europe countries. ...you can see many European are buying there just because they believe the price is cheaper for them and they can access to whatever they want easier than in their country.
In our country Iran, I can buy whatever software and hardware including apple brand in their latest technology and the funnier is its cheaper than us!,
if you walk in one of compute stores in Tehran such as Paietakhat building, Bazar Reza, Bazar Iranian,
well I really amazed that girl wanted to buy and then sending it to Iran and putting herself into a serious trouble, I don't believe it
To Prove, here is one of this link to one of this shops in Tehran: http://www.persianapple.com
(Don't forget to order one apple from there , Ha! )
But the sad fact is that apple store didn't sell an iphone (do we really consider it a high technology product!!??) to a us citizen
This shouldn't be a US government policy to not selling a childish apple product to a us citizen.
if it was the policy so why Samsung, Blackberry, Dell or other brands in US don't follow that policy
I am afraid it is what I call a Racist act from Apple,
we don't forget children abusing in apple factories, do we? here is some link to review it
http://www.neowin.net/news/apple-discover-91-children-employed-at-their-supplier-factories
http://ihscslnews.org/view_article.php?id=328
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/mar/30/apple-factories-china-foxconn-audit
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/29/foxconn-apple-factories-labor-violations_n_1389392.html
By the way, if you had problem getting an apple product from Iran in cheaper price leave me a message, when I come back to Tehran I can buy one for you, normally in November !