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After Recent US Storms, Why Are Millions Still Without Power?

Hugh Pickens points out a report from Jamie Smith Hopkins that "The unusual nature of the 'derecho' is complicating efforts to get everyone's much-needed air conditioning up and running again as more than 1.4 million people from Illinois to Virginia still remain without power and power companies warn some customers could be without power for the rest of the week in the worst hit areas. Utilities don't have enough staff to handle severe-storm outages – the expense would send rates soaring – so they rely on out-of-state utilities to send help, says Stephen Woerner, Baltimore Gas and Electric's (BGE) chief operating officer. Hurricane forecasts offer enough advanced warning for utilities to 'pre-mobilize' and get the out-of-state assistance in place but the forecast for Friday's walloping wind was merely scattered thunderstorms. 'No utility was prepared for what we saw in terms of having staff available that first day,' says Woerner. But is it a given that a strong storm would cause this magnitude of damage to the electricity grid? 'Even without pursuing the extremely expensive option of burying all of the region's electrical lines, the utilities can and do take steps between bouts of severe weather to prevent outages,' writes the Baltimore Sun, adding that consumer advocates are concerned that utilities invest sufficiently in preventive maintenance. 'Tree trimming and replacement of old infrastructure — particularly in areas that have been shown to be vulnerable to previous storms — helps prevent outages.'"

813 comments

  1. Because Jimmy's a lazy sonofabitch! by crazyjj · · Score: 2, Funny

    Goddamn, napping on a man lift next to a downed livewire?!?! Who DOES that?!?!?

    --
    What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
  2. Without power? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Peophttp://news.slashdot.org/story/12/07/03/1330239/after-recent-us-storms-why-are-millions-still-without-power?utm_source=slashdot&utm_medium=facebook#le need to start becoming independent from utilities.
    Drilling wells
    Solar Powered roofs
    Wind power
    NEED I SAY MORE

    1. Re:Without power? by gatkinso · · Score: 1

      >> NEED I SAY MORE

      Yes. You omitted the part about coming up witht he money for your solution.

      --
      I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
    2. Re:Without power? by firex726 · · Score: 1

      And where will they be put?

      Many people are very NIMBY about solar and wind.

    3. Re:Without power? by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      or at the very least MULTIPLE lines into each development so that one downed line doesn't take out the area...

      But that would require money for infrastructure investment which would create lots of jobs which would help the economy...

      Which is why the GOP is against it...

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    4. Re:Without power? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Many people are very NIMBY about solar and wind plants that are stuck into communities using imminent domain when their is any opposition, and that are run at a profit for private enterprise using public subsidies to make sure that there is no risk to our beautiful corporate overlords.

      FTFY

    5. Re:Without power? by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 2

      Peophttp://news.slashdot.org/story/12/07/03/1330239/after-recent-us-storms-why-are-millions-still-without-power?utm_source=slashdot&utm_medium=facebook#le need to start becoming independent from utilities. Drilling wells Solar Powered roofs Wind power NEED I SAY MORE

      While I agree, it would be nice to do most of this, it's also not the be-all, end-all solution. Particularly in the case of the recent derecho. Where I live, we had sustained winds of 70 mph and gusts over 90. There are trees with 3 foot diameters that the trunks were snapped off. There are utility poles that were blown over (no trees on the lines). Shingles were blown off of roofs. Solar panels would probably have made for nice sails in this storm. Or been smashed by flying debris. Residential wind turbines have dubious value at best. In this area, I doubt you could generate enough power from one to justify its cost. It most likely would have made a nice projectile in this storm. Wells are only useful (or legal) depending on where you live. My town has a population around 50K. We can't drill a well here. Not that the water table could support this if everyone did. I can just see someone in NYC deciding to drill a well. Not that anyone in their right mind would drink water from a well there.

    6. Re:Without power? by hierofalcon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Which would require multiple utility corridors all of which would need to be maintained, twice as many "unsightly" poles and twice the cost of running the service in the first place - read higher lot prices, twice the maintenance work to keep the trees cut back, twice as many unhappy homeowners as their trees that they planted to close to the right of way are cut back - "I didn't know it would grow that high!", lots of isolation and distribution stations where even more things could go wrong, and you'd still be at the same risk when a big storm hit.

      If you don't like the situation, buy a big diesel generator and wire it in. Then have a big storage tank of diesel close by.

    7. Re:Without power? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Put then windmills in the neighborhoods that use the power. Let them enjoy hearing "whoosh whoosh" all damn day.

    8. Re:Without power? by __aaeihw9960 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Remember - government spending is bad. REGARDLESS of the outcome for us. Government spending = taxes, and as everyone knows, this country was founded on three principles:

      1.God is in heaven, satan is in hell, and we are a Christian nation.

      2. I have the right to own any firearm I wish, up to and including napalm.

      3. TAXATION??? This country isn't designed to have taxes. Why should I have to pay for YOUR roads and YOUR power and YOUR schools? Socialist pig.

      Seriously, though, it seems to me that infrastructure spending is one of those no-brainer things that shouldn't even be a question.

    9. Re:Without power? by emorning · · Score: 1

      I'm not again alternative energy. But these storms would have ripped solar panels off of roofs. And you can go to youtube and see videos of wind turbines ripping themselves apart in high winds. But power plants dont get destroyed in a storm and power lines can be put in the ground.

    10. Re:Without power? by stonedcat · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'd be more than happy to hear wooshing if it meant sustainable power with less interruptions. Honestly I don't see what the big deal is here. Where I'm at there are 3 sets of train tracks about 100yds from my building and I get along just fine. Can't imagine that a few wind turbines would be that much louder..

      --
      You can't take the sky from me.
    11. Re:Without power? by psykocrime · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > Seriously, though, it seems to me that infrastructure spending is one of those no-brainer things that shouldn't even be a question.

      Of course it's a question; why should it be any different just because it's "infrastructure?" If there is demand for it, let the free-market provide it... nothing dictates that "infrastructure" be provided by some entity that maintains a monopoly on the use of force. Note too that "free market" includes voluntarily assembled co-operatives and communes. Communal activity for common good is one thing... forced participation in some initiative, at the point of a gun barrel, is something quite different.

      --
      // TODO: Insert Cool Sig
    12. Re:Without power? by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 4, Informative

      > Seriously, though, it seems to me that infrastructure spending is one of those no-brainer things that shouldn't even be a question.

      Of course it's a question; why should it be any different just because it's "infrastructure?" If there is demand for it, let the free-market provide it... nothing dictates that "infrastructure" be provided by some entity that maintains a monopoly on the use of force. Note too that "free market" includes voluntarily assembled co-operatives and communes. Communal activity for common good is one thing... forced participation in some initiative, at the point of a gun barrel, is something quite different.

      Except that utilities are a regulated industry so free market doesn't apply.

    13. Re:Without power? by tmosley · · Score: 1

      The broken window fallacy is a fallacy. Such action would only be constructive if the amortized costs for the installation were less than the costs from incidents like this.

      I don't think I have ever heard of something like this happening before, so it is unlikely to be something that happens often enough to warrant such expenditure. Jobs are a means to an end, not an end of themselves. If they were, then there would be two jobs, people digging ditches and people filling them in.

    14. Re:Without power? by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 1

      Yeah, those hurricane force winds would get those windmills pumping out the power! Zoom!

      Actually, I'd like to see that, preferably via video from a safe location.

      Bob: Power's still out, man!
      Bill: Good thing I had that solar power on my roof!
      Bob: But your roof is somewhere in the next county.
      Bill: Details, details...

    15. Re:Without power? by tmosley · · Score: 3, Informative

      Not if they were properly installed. In addition to being quite heavy (being made out of sand and metal), most installations have panels bolted to metal brackets which are permanently fixed to the roof. The panels aren't going anywhere without the roof.

      They can get smashed, but there are some types of panels that are resistant to such damage, and can even be repaired (a little solder to fix any broken connections and a new glass sheet over the top should be more than enough).

      And individual merely needs to weigh the costs of having occasional/extraordinarily rare outages like this against the costs of the system.

    16. Re:Without power? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Go take a course in economics so you can speak from a position of actual knowledge. Large-scale projects for the common good are a common "market failure", in that a market is unable to provide them. This includes tangibles like roads, tunnels, and bridges and intangibles like policing and rule of law.

      US has crappy infrastructure because of inefficiency and a lack of long-term thinking. By observation, you'd rather that cities get flooded and people die (New Orleans anyone) than invest ahead of time to prevent it. This seems to be true on a small scale as well (e.g. in Europe, the fire brigade will come and pump out your cellar after a flood - that doesn't seem to be the norm in the US). And before you come with the "high taxes" straw man, this works in Switzerland with tax rates hovering in the mid-teens.

    17. Re:Without power? by datavirtue · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Print it. It is called stimulus. We need to bury all of our lines AND run fiber that is owned by the public. If we do not engage in physical infrastructure (data and roads/energy) soon it doesn't matter if you fix education, the job market or international trade. If we do not have the medium with which to facilitate economic activity it will be like taking the wheels off of a bus.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    18. Re:Without power? by datavirtue · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If anyone really gave a shit they would just let the other political party take full credit for the idea and legislative implementation. Get it done. The greatest infrastructure planner/implementer ever used to say, "It is amazing what you can accomplish if you are willing to let someone else take the credit."

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    19. Re:Without power? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      When the economy hit the black water tank in 2008, China made a stimulus package. It didn't just go to replacing cars either.

      They spent money adding airports, roads, rail, laying fiber, even adding chip factories so they can fab their own stuff if need be.

      It has helped their economy immensely. Their factories are highly competitive because their government and business cooperate. They can get raw materials to where they need to go on a scale that couldn't be matched here in the states due to the government being told not to do it, and the private sector uninterested in funding it.

    20. Re:Without power? by Wandering+Voice · · Score: 2

      I would much rather hear the 'whoosh' of a windmill all day, than feel that skin crawling, bone tingling, feeling when I cross under the high tension power lines.

    21. Re:Without power? by CubicleZombie · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You're the first to mention tree trimming. That's a big debate in itself.

      People complained about outages after Hurricane Whatever a few years ago so the utility came through and cut back everything. My neighborhood looked like a war zone when they were done. They even bush-hogged my flower garden. Then everybody complained about the trimming. Of course, we still lost power for 36 hours last weekend.

      Every homeowner should have a generator, a water pump, and a gun. Waiting until you need one to get it is too late.

      --
      :wq
    22. Re:Without power? by cptdondo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Because "free market" is a lousy way to provide essential services. If you do, then only high profit neighborhoods will have affordable power. Most rural communities are heavily subsidized by their denser neighbors.

      If this was a free market, then utilities would pull out of poor and low profit neighborhoods.

      I know; I work for a utility. We have neighborhoods where we will never, ever, "make a profit", because we had to sink so much into the infrastructure that at our normal rates we will never make our investment back.

      On the whole we're "profitable" - as profitable as a public corporation can be. But we could be raking in the big bucks if we were private and allowed to abandon "poorly performing" or "unprofitable" neighborhoods.

      So your "free market" would take us back to the days when the rich had power, clean water, sewer, and internet, and the poor lived in squalor and filth.

    23. Re:Without power? by colfer · · Score: 1

      Guessing more large transmission lines were hit by this storm than usual. Our electric co-op has lines and substations repaired and ready which still cannot get power from the two big utilities. The co-op has 35,000 customers but does not generate its own power. It fills in nooks and crannies on the map out in rural areas, and may still get some kind of subsidy from the old REA, now part of the Agriculture Dept.

      Similarly, phone went out even though lines are generally underground here. DSL was more vulnerable, and the word is the lost power from the big utilities.

    24. Re:Without power? by colfer · · Score: 1

      (Not all 35,000 are out, but two substations are getting no power.)

    25. Re:Without power? by Tangential · · Score: 1

      I like the tech idea that they are working on at SolarRoadways. Turn roads, driveways, parking lots into solar cells. IF (notice its a big if) they can make it work in a resilient and affordable way it will not only solve the NIMBY problem, it will also reduce some of the national grid problems as well. Having power generated as close to the point of consumption as possible will reduce the amount of power wasted. Storage will still be an issue to address, but that's no different than any other solution.

      --
      Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of congress. But then I repeat myself. -- Mark Twain
    26. Re:Without power? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, where I live you wouldn't get enough power from a whole rooftop of solar to power air conditioners or refrigerators, even in summer. The instalation costs would pay for themselves in maybe 60 years if they didn't break, but its not an attractive proposition for most homeowners.

    27. Re:Without power? by roman_mir · · Score: 0, Troll

      Gov't spending IS bad regardless of outcome. ALL gov't spending is bad under ALL situations.

      It is necessary to spend on government, but none of it is good. It is necessary to have military protection of some kind, of-course what USA has today is not for protection, it is for an attack, it's war spending, not protection spending.

      The productive USA was built without income taxes, without corporate taxes, without payroll taxes, without FDIC, Fed, IRS, FDA, FHA, EPA, CIA, FBI, SS, Medicare, EI, Medicaid, welfare, without dep't of energy, education, agriculture, small business, commerce, interior, HUD, etc.

      USA was a third world country before the 19th century, but during 19th century it became largest producer and exporter and thus largest creditor, yet nothing that I listed above existed. The time that parts of it were tried (like the Continental currency) it was a gigantic failure, leading to major recessions.

      But how does a country become a productive exporter, creditor without gov't building infrastructure? Because it's not true that gov't is needed to build any of it, what IS true is that WEALTH is needed to build infrastructure.

      There has to be a REASON to build infrastructure, there has to be wealth first, there has to be a promise of making a return - the profit motive is the driver, nothing else.

      With the gov't, the profit motive is shifted, it's not to make a profit by producing the best product the market wants to buy, it's to make profit by growing the biggest department and by giving out the most free fake, borrowed or taxed money - that's how you grow power in government.

      But a big gov't, is a powerful gov't, it's a huge spender and it needs things to do, so it gets its hands into everything.

      It was the gov't that destroyed 3000 competitors to AT&T and turned AT&T into a monopoly. It was the gov't that broke apart a successful in the market Standard Oil corporation, which only had 4% of oil market in 1969 at 30 cents per gallon of refined oil and did enough investment and innovation to bring prices down to 5.9 cents by 1899. Of-course once Standard Oil was broken (and there were 150 competitors at the time), the prices for oil never went down again.

      Infrastructure? How about the Keystone pipeline - the actual PRODUCTIVE infrastructure that private companies want to build, because they believe it's going to be profitable, it's going to make money. Is that the wrong thing today somehow - making money? USA was built by business, not by any government. USA was built by ABSENCE of gov't, people came to USA for freedoms from their totalitarian governments.

      The countries today that do the best are those that removed the most government controls from their economy over time, and USA is moving in a completely wrong direction.

      You want infrastructure? You can't have infrastructure, there is nothing to build it for, and if there is something to build it for (like an oil pipeline) you are arguing against it, and it's not even a government project.

      You are not going to have infrastructure, because you don't have production. You are not going to have education and science, because you don't have manufacturing and engineering.

      There has to be manufacturing and it has to be private - for profit, and gov't must stay out of it and that's how you will have wealth and infrastructure, because manufacturing will require it. That's how you'll have science - engineering done for manufacturing will require it and that's how you'll have education - all of the above will require it.

      It's not enough to WANT something, you have to either do it yourself or step away and let those do it who want to do it, and their motivation is profit, and that's the best motivation. It's the best motivation, because absent gov't meddling, they'll be making profit by doing something that everybody wants (market wants to buy).

    28. Re:Without power? by tmosley · · Score: 1

      You should re-examine that. Solar costs are dropping VERY quickly. Sunelec.com has polycrystaline panels for 66 cents/watt right now. These should last for at least 25 years, barring softball sized hail, etc.

      But if you are too far north, then it is probably not worth it. I would tend to argue that it is good to have a few around to power vital electronics. I have enough to power my well should the power go out for an extended period of time, and am now looking at going all solar due to the falling costs.

    29. Re:Without power? by Capt+James+McCarthy · · Score: 1

      The problem with it all is the "Lowest Common Denominator" aspect that is used. U.S. Mail was/is good. But it has to be there for everyone (according to cradle to grave government ruling). To include the infrastructure to support folks in the sticks. Roads, same deal. Power, ditto. Emergency services, Airline seats (ever see what we the people subsidize the airlines per seat for small airports just so those citizens can have access to resources?), etc, etc .

      Not that I don't like living away from population centers, but supporting the "last mile" while trying to make the resources available equal to all is just not cost effective and needs to be sliced away.

      --
      There are no loopholes. It's either legal or it's not.
    30. Re:Without power? by mcavic · · Score: 1

      It wouldn't help you. Windmills still have to be maintained. And, you still need reserve power when the wind dies down. If the reserve comes from batteries, the batteries will need periodic replacement, which is expensive. And if the reserve comes from offsite -- forget about the windmill and just bury your power lines.

    31. Re:Without power? by bitingduck · · Score: 1

      I have a bunch of oak trees on a pretty small lot, including one that has power lines running through it. When we had the last wind storm, it was about 6 months after we'd had them all trimmed (and nicely), and had a tree that had abruptly died removed. Our total loss of branches was a piece about the size of a small shrub, maybe 2 feet across. There were hundreds of downed trees in the area, and even more that lost branches. Keeping them trimmed saved us an enormous mess. Our tree trimmer came by a few days after the wind with a big smile and said something like "See, I told you I'd do a nice job".

    32. Re:Without power? by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Wind turbines only fail in high winds if something is wrong with them (unless the entire structure gets knocked over somehow). A correctly operating wind turbine will adjust the blade pitch to either shut down safely or continue operating in high winds.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    33. Re:Without power? by squizzar · · Score: 1

      Because the difference between 'the greatest country and the world' and somewhere with similar climate, natural resources etc. is?

    34. Re:Without power? by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 1

      We did the free market for utilities. It didn't work. You should know history, cities had the sun blotted out for all the overhead wires - literally.

      Or having 14 water supply pipes from different providers...some things aren't free market compatible.

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    35. Re:Without power? by squizzar · · Score: 1

      Oh the irony. Meant to be 'greatest country in the world'. Meant to be...

    36. Re:Without power? by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 1

      You're arguing that Standard Oil and company towns were good for us? Just wow.

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    37. Re:Without power? by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Or buy some candles. Seriously, the power goes out for a few days in the summer and it's such a big deal?

      In the town I grew up in, the power used to go out in the winter sometimes. When it was -40. My friend's lizard died during one multi day outage, but other than that everyone managed to do just fine.

    38. Re:Without power? by bitingduck · · Score: 1

      We had a windstorm (gusts probably over 130 mph in areas) last December that took down hundreds of trees within a few miles of me, and probably thousands all over SoCal, including a number of quite large trees. It also took down a lot of power poles without tree impact. People I know who have solar didn't lose any panels-- they're generally tied to the roof pretty well, and won't have trees above them that would cause impact. I'm planning to put in a small solar setup to run the fridge (I don't have enough view of the sky to go full solar).

      It seems like the biggest correlation for damage was: native trees (around here, Live Oak) generally held up pretty well. I have a bunch of oaks plus an ~80 foot tall pine tree that's got a trunk about 3 feet across and sways a lot. We lost pretty much nothing except leaves and twigs. Planted trees (including many very large mature ones along roadways) fell like dominoes because they didn't develop root systems appropriate to the area. There were roads that had two trees across them per block.

      As far as power reliability-- the municipal power systems had been doing a better job of doing maintenance and prep than SCE-- Pasadena had nearly everyone back up very quickly, and City of LA lost about the same number of customers as SCE, but had them back up about twice as fast. Their area is pretty well comparable and interspersed with SCE's coverage area.

    39. Re:Without power? by ceoyoyo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Don't forget that hose poor living in squalor and filth would be stealing from and infecting the rich, and periodically lining them up against walls and shooting them.

      Subsidizing basics like power, clean water, sewer and education for the poor works out quite well for the rich overall.

    40. Re:Without power? by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      That 'IF' is so big, I'd need to consult the list of Yo Mamma jokes to express just how big it is.

    41. Re:Without power? by chasisaac · · Score: 1

      That whoosh of the windmill is horrid. I mean horrid. All day, all night. Sounds like a low power jet engine. I used to live about four blocks (or so) from one. Everyone thought cool seems like good idea. The people including myself thought it was a great idea.

      Worst idea ever. I had to move just to be able to get to sleep. The noise is never ending. So until you live near the whoosh I would be careful of what you wish for. I live three blocks from train tracks, about a mile from the interstate, I will take those.

      --
      -- A computer without Windoze is like a choclate cake without mustard
    42. Re:Without power? by __aaeihw9960 · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Okay, here goes:

      Gov't spending IS bad regardless of outcome. ALL gov't spending is bad under ALL situations.

      Sending First generation and low-income students through college is bad? I always assumed that more education = less money spent in the long run . . . . But I guess that decades of research (just google that) can be wrong. . . .

      The productive USA was built without income taxes, without corporate taxes, without payroll taxes, without FDIC, Fed, IRS, FDA, FHA, EPA, CIA, FBI, SS, Medicare, EI, Medicaid, welfare, without dep't of energy, education, agriculture, small business, commerce, interior, HUD, etc.

      Do you know why those things exist? To protect citizens. You can say what you want about the Gub'ment being out to get you, but it's true. Private enterprise in the 19th and early 20th century proved one thing, over-and-over, it will cut costs to the point of being dangerous to its workers, just to increase short-term profits. What choice do we have? Are you telling me that we can trust corporations to do what's in our best interests? If you say yes, please google anything with large businesses and the start of the labor movement.

      But how does a country become a productive exporter, creditor without gov't building infrastructure? Because it's not true that gov't is needed to build any of it, what IS true is that WEALTH is needed to build infrastructure.There has to be a REASON to build infrastructure, there has to be wealth first, there has to be a promise of making a return - the profit motive is the driver, nothing else.

      Okay, what about us who live where it wouldn't be profitable to run power, water or any other essential service? I guess we're just screwed. And Profit as the driver is an incredibly fine line. Today's attitude of bar-the-door short-term profits at the expense of all else doesn't exactly lend itself to developing long-term strategy. You know what does? Slow-moving government.

      Infrastructure? How about the Keystone pipeline - the actual PRODUCTIVE infrastructure that private companies want to build, because they believe it's going to be profitable, it's going to make money. Is that the wrong thing today somehow - making money? USA was built by business, not by any government. USA was built by ABSENCE of gov't, people came to USA for freedoms from their totalitarian governments.

      Keystone pipeline = 250,000 jobs is what we're told. NO, Keystone pipeline = 250,000 MOSTLY TEMPORARY man-year jobs. So, if it creates 20,000 jobs that last for 6 months, that's 10,000 jobs, correct? Nope. A job is a stable, long-term position. A temporary employment opportunity is what they're counting. It has nothing to do with long-term solutions. Granted, it's better than nothing, but change the discussion from how many jobs it will create by hyperbole, and actually give us a realistic number. I haven't been able to find one. And I'm not willing to trust someone who is driven by PROFIT to do what is in my best interest. No thank you.

      The countries today that do the best are those that removed the most government controls from their economy over time, and USA is moving in a completely wrong direction.

      Citation please? Are you talking about third world hell-holes? Or the pseudo-socialist Europeans?

      You want infrastructure? You can't have infrastructure, there is nothing to build it for, and if there is something to build it for (like an oil pipeline) you are arguing against it, and it's not even a government project. You are not going to have infrastructure, because you don't have production. You are not going to have education and science, because you don't have manufacturing and engineering.

      Wat? Are you saying that infrastructure necessarily equals profits and oil? Infrastructure means fixi

    43. Re:Without power? by chasisaac · · Score: 1

      >But that would require money for infrastructure investment which would create lots of jobs which would help the economy...

      Which in turn takes money out of the private sector making it more and more difficult for a real recovery. Keep in mind the average time for an economic down turn is 18 months. We are at what?

      We tried this in 2009, what was result? I believe little to nothing. Even the president laughed about the idea of shovel ready jobs. Take the money out of somewhere else.

      Dare I mention environmental regulations. It would never get done with the EPA alone.

      --
      -- A computer without Windoze is like a choclate cake without mustard
    44. Re:Without power? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not enough to WANT something, you have to either do it yourself or step away and let those do it who want to do it, and their motivation is profit, and that's the best motivation. It's the best motivation, because absent gov't meddling, they'll be making profit by doing something that everybody wants (market wants to buy).

      Yes, but this also apply to government: it's not enough to just WANT a government that leaves you alone. You either do it yourself or let somebody else do it, and the motivation will be profit.

      So that's why you are taxed, cuz the people in government want a profit too (and you were too lazy/incompetent to have taken up the job of government for yourself)

    45. Re:Without power? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      but then the opposite gets the votes. By stirring discontent, they can blame everything on the president.
      Remember, one sides stated goal is not to help the american people, but to get Obama out of office at any cost.
      You should attend some of those rallies, the illogical, meanness and often underhanded racism is scary. Something I had thought was left behind with the 50's.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    46. Re:Without power? by robot256 · · Score: 1

      You apparently haven't spent much time in Washington DC during the summer. We were among the first adopters of air conditioning because summer is so insufferably hot and humid here. Before AC, the federal government had more "heat days" than snow days, and it was common for people to sleep in bathtubs full of cold water. When the power goes out in the summer in DC, people die from heat-related illnesses with alarming regularity. Most people also are not used to stockpiling non-perishable food, and businesses and public services are out of power in addition to homes, so life can get pretty difficult. Heck, my house has power but no Internet because the Verizon tech can't re-enable it until the central office gets turned back on. So yeah, losing power for a week in an entire region is about a lot more than camping in the basement in a snowstorm.

    47. Re:Without power? by Idbar · · Score: 1

      Valuable number 3. I've met many people on that line of thought. I wonder if they would be happy paying for each road they drive through. Perhaps, with GPS they can easily adopt such approach. (I'm sure they probably suck it up, just to make the point of not paying for someone else roads).

    48. Re:Without power? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Imagine if trains never stopped running.

      Wind turbine noise is grating. Like a child clucking her tongue. At first you notice it and don't think much about it. But 50 clucks latter and your ready to scream.

      Plus, using that same land you could use industrial solar thermal produce more energy cheaper and quieter. Or 4th gen nuclear plants.

      Not that there isn't anyplace for windmills.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    49. Re:Without power? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Can decide if crazy or trying to be funny.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    50. Re:Without power? by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 1

      It puts money INTO the private sector. How exactly does paying private companies to build infrastructure take money 'out' of the private sector?

      What we tried in 2009 was sized for a specific size recession. Shortly afterwards we got new data that showed this recession was significantly worse than originally estimated. So the infrastructure plan was too 'small' for the problem and didn't do enough. On top of that, 30% of the 'stimulus' was tax cuts that didn't help anybody but the recipients.

      Let me know what about this sequence you disagree with:

      1. When the economy is in recession, both the consumers and the private sector are pulling back
      2. If the consumers aren't buying, the private sector won't be hiring, yes?
      3. If you give more money to private sector via tax cuts, they will pocket the money to pay bills because they aren't selling stuff due to #2 (some expenses/bills still exist, but they won't be expanding) Now you can wait until people start buying again, which means they need jobs. How do they get jobs is businesses aren't hiring? It's a chicken and egg situation. Jobs need demand but demand needs people with money which needs people with jobs.

      OR you could do this:

      4. Paying companies to build things is 'increasing' demand since the government is artificially buying stuff. (see below)
      5. #4 creates incentives for companies to hire to fill that demand.
      6. Companies pay employees who now start spending because they have a job and income coming in. (you have to eat, pay rent, utilities, etc)

      re: #4, we need 'infrastructure' for society to exist as we know it. So it isn't really 'artificial' spending but it is deficit spending on something you need to do anyway. Just like you pay for a college education, few people pay cash upfront. It's an investment in the future that pays for itself over time. Roads, power grids, water systems, etc all do the same thing. They allow society and the private sector to operate and bring us the gains to grow our economy.

      Right now, interest rates are so low as to be zero so it's essentially free money to pay back at no interest later. So since we need to redo much of our infrastructure and we need jobs and it's cheaper than it's ever been, why not do it now?

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    51. Re:Without power? by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      I would much rather hear the 'whoosh' of a windmill all day, than feel that skin crawling, bone tingling, feeling when I cross under the high tension power lines.

      Nothing but your own illogical nervous reaction. If you disagree, I'd love to see any peer reviewed scientific evidence to the contrary.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    52. Re:Without power? by RabidReindeer · · Score: 2

      If anyone really gave a shit they would just let the other political party take full credit for the idea and legislative implementation. Get it done. The greatest infrastructure planner/implementer ever used to say, "It is amazing what you can accomplish if you are willing to let someone else take the credit."

      I wish. The modern day paradigm is more like "Death to the Infidels!" Nothing less than total destruction of the other sides. "Polar opposites". One side wants to steal your money, the other wants to give your money away. One side eats their babies, the other side wants to eat YOUR babies. But they're polar opposites.

      We promote schemes of government and economic plans that - for whatever merits they may or may not possess - aren't going to work because their one fatal flaw is that they only work at all if everyone signs on. And then go to great lengths to ensure that only the True Believers are likely to sign on at all. And complain that we just need a little more time and a little more control.

      Ideology is for idiots.

      So why are we letting the idiots run everything?

    53. Re:Without power? by sjames · · Score: 1

      We could take it out of the bombing brown people budget or out of the jailing stoned people budget.

    54. Re:Without power? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Greed might be king, but it shouldn't be, and greed never - I will repeat - NEVER works out as a long-term motivation.

      Actually, greed is king, as it should, and it almost always works out in the long term

      See, long term just means "until you die", and throughout history, the most successful people have been greedy, and they almost always get to enjoy a wonderful life. It is only near the end of their life that they *might* suffer. Sometimes they don't even suffer, and their greed-gotten wealth is enjoyed by their kin.

      Even if they do suffer at the end of their life, they usually suffer for less time than the time they enjoyed as greedy bastards

      Napoleon was emperor for about 10 years. Lived in exile afterward for about 6. 10 years is greater than 6

      Before Napoleon, Louis XVI was the king for all his life right up until his execution.

      In more recent times, Muammar Gaddafi ruled Libya for decades. The revolt that killed them lasted less than a year.

      No matter which US president you hate, almost every one of them got to enjoy a wonderful life even after they left office. I'm sure Bush is enjoying his life. Obama will probably too. Amusingly, it seems the more altruistic ones (Lincoln, Kennedy) are the ones who are killed abruptly

      In fiction land, Palpatine was a powerful politician even before his rise to Emperor. He had a long and successful life, toying with people's lives (and you can see it on his face jus how much FUN he had turning Anakin over) right up until he was thrown down the Death Star shaft, which was a relatively quick affair.

      So all in all, greed is good. At least better than altruism.

    55. Re:Without power? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      By observation, you'd rather that cities get flooded and people die (New Orleans anyone) than invest ahead of time to prevent it

      No, I'd rather that people not build in a flood plane, or that my tax dollars to rebuilding areas that are inevitably (within a reasonable amount of time...not talking centuries) going to be consumed by oceans, rivers, etc. Yes, I feel sorry for all those people who experienced any kind of loss, but it makes zero sense to help them rebuild in the same spot.

      As for general infrastructure spending, I'm all for spending our tax dollars on that, and I'm speaking as a fiscal conservative.

    56. Re:Without power? by mike1214 · · Score: 0

      2. I have the right to own any firearm I wish

      That's correct.

      If you have a problem with that, perhaps you need to be shot.

    57. Re:Without power? by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      Where I'm at there are 3 sets of train tracks about 100yds from my building and I get along just fine. Can't imagine that a few wind turbines would be that much louder..

      What about the people that choose to live in a bit better location, away from train tracks, airports...etc.

      I'm sure they would be bothered possibly by noises you aren't...since you already live in a noisy (and to many, less desirable) area?

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    58. Re:Without power? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, I feel sorry for all those people who experienced any kind of loss, but it makes zero sense to help them rebuild in the same spot.

      It makes perfect sense. That spot is their property, not any other spot. It's not like they can just go and rebuild on YOUR property.

    59. Re:Without power? by cayenne8 · · Score: 0

      ...but to get Obama out of office at any cost.

      And, that's sounding pretty darned good right about now too. Geez, imagine the damage that guy could have done un-opposed.

      I'm no Romney fan, but I'd vote for a small soap dish, with little to no personality over Obama at this point.

      He's seriously giving Bush a run for 'worst president ever'.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    60. Re:Without power? by akboss · · Score: 1

      It wouldn't help you. Windmills still have to be maintained. And, you still need reserve power when the wind dies down. If the reserve comes from batteries, the batteries will need periodic replacement, which is expensive. And if the reserve comes from offsite -- forget about the windmill and just bury your power lines.

      For those of you where wind is inconsistent try something else.

      Here on the Texas Panhandle wind NEVER dies down.

      With a vertical axis wind turbine the sound level remains fairly low.

      With cut ins from 2 m/s and most without a cut out speed all you need are sustained winds of around 8-10 mph.

      I have trains running about 3 acres away so any noises would not be a problem even right in the back yard.

      Major difference in noise levels between horizontal and vertical axis designs. Also in the size. Do you really need a free standing 200 foot tower or would a small VAWT that pumps out 2,3,4, or more KWh be better?

      --
      "Remember, politicians and diapers should be changed often and for the same reason."
    61. Re:Without power? by mooingyak · · Score: 4, Funny

      imminent domain

      LOOK OUT!

      It's about to happen.

      What's about to happen you ask?

      Domain. It's imminent.

      --
      William of Ockham had no beard. The most likely explanation is that it was chewed off by squirrels every morning.
    62. Re:Without power? by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      China has two day traffic jams because of all the _trucks_ used to move coal from the mines to the cities.

      Think about that and let it settle in. They don't build power plants at the mines and power lines, they use small trucks to haul the coal.

      That kind of distortion is a sign of a broken market. Bet someone with much power owns the existing power plants.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    63. Re:Without power? by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      There are people that trace the ruin of America's federal government back to the invention of AC.

      Before that they were pressed for time and only did important things.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    64. Re:Without power? by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 2

      Ah. Enlightenment. I finally get it. roman_mir is a Sith. Only they deal in absolutes. Also, evil.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    65. Re:Without power? by CrzyP · · Score: 1

      Though more expensive, adding a permanent gas powered generator to your home's electrical line helps as well. Power goes out, generator kicks in.

    66. Re:Without power? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      nah, the plan is to let us slide into idiocracy.

    67. Re:Without power? by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      It's there property, and any loses after a flood are also theirs (and their insurer).

      If they don't like it they can move. Many locations are desirable enough (e.g. Barrier Islands) that people take this deal.

      But don't expect anybody to build a brand new slum in a flood plain to replace the old one.

      Also note that the important parts of NO (the bulk material port and the oil terminal) were back up and running in a couple of months.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    68. Re:Without power? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well that is basically what is happening where I live (NH.) Those of us wealthy enough to provide our own reliable infrastructure have gotten generators. Everyone else is at risk, and I do mean at risk, from the hazards of an unreliable power grid in a region with inclement weather. This is no way to run a country. The utilities have externalized the costs of a reliable infrastructure onto their 'clients' and have done so based on wealth. We've had extended cold weather outages, several of them, over the last 5 years, People have and will die.

    69. Re:Without power? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A generator is not needed. It makes you feel better because you can power some lights and maybe a portable TV or your refrigorator and you can say, "Hey, we have some power" but that money would be better spent on things you ACTUALLY need like some large containers of water (dirty water for toilets and clean for drinking and dishes), some canned food, candles, batteries, oil lamps, propane and a grill with a side burner or a camping stove, keroscene heater etc.. All combined cost far less than a generator and are far more useful when the power is out. Some nice things to have would be a power invertor and a spare car battery or even a tractor battery ($25 at Wal-Mart) for charging cell phones and to run some 12V items like lights.

    70. Re:Without power? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      supporting the "last mile" while trying to make the resources available equal to all is just not cost effective and needs to be sliced away.

      Once it's gone, good luck trying to get it back. Remember, Korea and Japan have better internet access than anywhere in the US because we're "not dense enough". Enjoy living in the one tower downtown that has service once the telcos decide they don't have to support all those surburbs and exurbs and rural areas.

    71. Re:Without power? by Mister+Whirly · · Score: 2

      Hypochondria certainly can be a bitch. The mind is a powerful thing.

      --
      "But this one goes to 11!"
    72. Re:Without power? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, in a Star Wars analogy, roman_mir would be the Jedi. He hangs on to the belief that one day the forces of good (freedom, capitalism, and all that) will prevail. He is the Obi-Wan who exiled himself away from the evil empire (the US, all those socialist hellholes) waiting to one day watch the US fall.

      The libertarians are the Rebel Alliance believing that they're fighting the good fight to restore the world to how things were before (19th century US being their "Old Republic")

      Of course, the analogy only goes so far. In reality, the "Rebels" don't win, because there's no such thing as a magical energy called "the Force" to help them.

      In reality, Stormtroopers would have shot (with great accuracy) R2D2 along with Princess Leia. Wait no, the Empire would have had hacked the droids (think Stuxnet) long before, and Princess Leia giving the Death Star plans over to the droid would only incriminate her further as that would be evidence used against her (and along with the plans, they'll "discover" the princess also possessed child porn along the way, and she was hiding weed in her hair buns)

    73. Re:Without power? by OzoneLad · · Score: 1

      > Seriously, though, it seems to me that infrastructure spending is one of those no-brainer things that shouldn't even be a question.

      Of course it's a question; why should it be any different just because it's "infrastructure?" If there is demand for it, let the free-market provide it... nothing dictates that "infrastructure" be provided by some entity that maintains a monopoly on the use of force. Note too that "free market" includes voluntarily assembled co-operatives and communes. Communal activity for common good is one thing... forced participation in some initiative, at the point of a gun barrel, is something quite different.

      Back in the early 2000s, Ontario (that's in Canada) de-regulated the power market. A few months later, the government had to step in again, because your much-vaunted free market had more than doubled electricity rates in the space of a few months.

    74. Re:Without power? by CubicleZombie · · Score: 1

      A car battery will be dead. Even if kept charge, it'll run an inverter for a couple of hours at best. For me, a cheap used generator will run the well pump (all the clean water I'll ever need), the fridge, a window unit A/C (my wife is 38 weeks pregnant - 100 degree heat is NOT an option), and the blower in my wood stove (I have 5+ years of fire wood stacked in the yard). Oh the wonders of gasoline! Even better would be a diesel generator that I could hook up to my 500 gallon heating oil tank. That would definitely carry me through the zombie apocalypse.

      What has surprised me during this weather event is that you can't beat a landline phone. Verizon Wireless was out for two days and still isn't reliable and Vonage/Skype wouldn't work without cable internet service. I had no way to contact anyone.

      --
      :wq
    75. Re:Without power? by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      If I have time maybe I'll reply to you later, but right now I'll give you a good source to listen to for a few minutes that explains why the personal income tax in USA is unconstitutional and is collected unconstitutionally, the only constitutional 'income tax' is not an income tax but is a tax on corporate profits.

      This is an argument similar that I made a while back.

    76. Re:Without power? by wavedeform · · Score: 1

      I have a 5 kw system on my roof. I put it on last year, when there were fairly good subsidies and tax credits. It will pay for itself in 6-7 years. I think of it as pre-paying my electric bill for 7 years, then reaping a nice upside for a decade or two.

    77. Re:Without power? by bandy · · Score: 1

      I have trains running about 3 acres away

      How many parsecs do they go?

      --
      "You might as well get your son a ticket to hell as give him a five string banjo." -unknown minister
    78. Re:Without power? by __aaeihw9960 · · Score: 1
      Okay? I'm not arguing that income tax is constitutional or not. . . I'm arguing that the public sector, even with all of its faults, is better at long-range planning and looking out for our general health and well-being than the private side. I'm arguing that greed is a terrible motivator and that your arguments are terrible as well. I'm arguing that Standard Oil was evil (and you know it), and that the pipeline you used is an awful example. I'm arguing that the only reason that you are educated enough to argue is because of the laws in place to protect people that came about because businesses abused the system and got caught. I'm arguing that I DO NOT need businessmen and women to decide what's best for me, and that corporations NEVER have our best intentions in mind, unless they can grab a quick buck out of it. I'm arguing that what I need is for government to tell businesses to leave me the fuck alone. I need the government to regulate what shit businesses can spew into my water, air and land. I'm arguing that free-market doesn't work, because the assholes in power have no checks and balances, and it becomes what we have in our world right now, and what has happened countless times in the past: Accumulation of wealth by the few, fuck the many and a slow-slide into anarchy.

      Why would you derail the argument like that? What purpose does that serve?

      I don't care if it's unconstitutional. I care that idiots want to privatize everything at the expense of the lowest common denominator in the world, because fuck poor people, right? If they were any good, they wouldn't be poor - just pull your bootstraps a little harder you lazy poor people.

    79. Re:Without power? by Alamais · · Score: 1

      Obvious Rand is obvious.

    80. Re:Without power? by roman_mir · · Score: 0

      You are wrong on all accounts.

      There is no motivation in the public sector to do anything for the long term, the politicians are constantly battling in their own 'game of thrones', the sits are changed, the politicians want to stay in power, you think it's NOT a profit motive for them? Are you blind?

      The public sector is much worse at handling what the market needs in the long term.

      Again: what was phone service like while AT&T was still a gov't monopoly? You could rent a phone from them, sure, your pay always went up, it never went down, your services didn't improve, there was no consumer side innovation.

      Then eventually AT&T lost its monopoly status and all of a sudden - from phone answering machines to fax machines to modems. All sorts of accessories appeared, the phones weren't rotary beige boxes anymore. Then mobile phones appeared, sure, expensive in the beginning, that's how it is. Today everybody who wants one has one. Or two, or more, and they can get them for free.

      Long term? How long terms should it be, AT&T was a monopoly from early 19 hundreds, 3000 competitors were put out of business by government to do it.

      Before Medicare came alone, the people paid for health care out of pocket, because it was cheap, because gov't wasn't in it (well, except for the inflationary money printing of-course and various regulations that always increased costs.)

      Eventually with Medicare and then FDA, so gov't money and regulations, what the fuck happened to the health care and insurance costs you think?

      Medicare was a long term gov't funded project, it's a complete disaster, it's bankrupt, it has no actual assets, no money. Sure sure, it has gov't bonds - much good will that do in the market.

      What about FDA? Was it really needed? Were people dying left right and centre? No. But the pharma companies had too much competition and then Nixon came to town of-course.

      What do you know, apparently with all gov't licenses competition can be completely wiped out and given the gov't system of patents, what do you know, prices can be arbitrarily high for any medication or a procedure. And what about insurance?

      Well, people used to pay up to 2 bucks per month for a family of 2 before 1965, got excellent coverage (up to 50K per year), of-course the 500 bucks deductible still meant that most of the conditions and check ups were done by the person out of pocket, but they could actually afford it.

      By the way, that audio, there is a pretty good prediction about the costs of insurance and health care going up due to ACA and the fact that the very concept of insurance has been destroyed by it, oh well, gov't does 'long term planning', right?

      -

      In any case, AFAIC I am not here to convince you of anything, your mind is very much made up, I mean with gems like "greed is a terrible motivator", what's there to talk about?

      What you call greed, I call basic desire of humans for better life. Individuals address that by working, that's what they do absent gov't. Gov't destroys the ability of people to be self-sustainable, self-respecting individuals, breaks their legs, hands them crutches and says: see, without me you wouldn't be able to walk. Vote for me.

      By the way, this:

      I'm arguing that I DO NOT need businessmen and women to decide what's best for me, and that corporations NEVER have our best intentions in mind, unless they can grab a quick buck out of it

      - this is so stupid, it's beyond reproach, there is truly nothing to argue with you about. Yes, many corporations today are in cahoots with the gov't, but the reason of-course is that the individual freedoms of people who run the businesses are stolen by the gov't, by the mob, and they have to do something about it, so they make a good business decisions - jiujitsu, use the strength of the system against itself.

      I am arguing that I DO NOT need gov't to tell me how to live my life, to tell me what is good, what is bad. I don't need gov't to pro

    81. Re:Without power? by __aaeihw9960 · · Score: 2

      We are arguing the exact same thing, but from different angles. Your belief is that the free-market is the cure, not a perfect one, but better than government. Mine is the polar opposite. I do understand what freedom is. My freedom is to choose to not let the free-market make my decisions, based on what would be profitable this month. I choose to be altruistic and not say fuck the rest of you people. I choose to think for myself and not just consume. I choose to get involved in government, because believe it or not, you can impact it if you want to. I understand the accumulation of wealth and power, economics, production, money and freedom. believe it or not, my views are just different from yours. Am I wrong? Maybe. Are you? Also, maybe. There are advanced degrees sitting on my wall. That doesn't necessarily mean I know everything, or that I'm right. It just means that I have done my homework.

      Realistically, we are hashing out the chicken versus the egg argument. Did business screw up the government, or did government pervert the businesses? My opinion is that government started regulating business, it was less profitable, so businesses put their money where they could have the most impact - fucking up the system.

      My argument is that MONEY and business have corrupted what we have here in the US. My morals tell me that the law is in place for two reasons: To make sure the government doesn't step over the line - absolutely; and to make sure that businesses leave me alone, don't screw up too much, and do good by the public.

      What you call greed, I call basic desire of humans for better life. Individuals address that by working, that's what they do absent gov't. Gov't destroys the ability of people to be self-sustainable, self-respecting individuals, breaks their legs, hands them crutches and says: see, without me you wouldn't be able to walk. Vote for me.

      And NOPE. Government exists to make sure that itself, you, and everyone around can't fuck me into the ground. It exists to make sure that Joe Billionaire isn't employing children because they're cheaper. Is it always good? No, absolutely not. Is it better than letting profit figure out what's best for me? Yes, absolutely.

      I have never seen complete state control, but I honestly don't believe that we are anywhere near that right now. Anyone who would argue that is just fear-mongering. BUT, you are right, I have made up my mind --- I've seen what privatization and profit motivation can do. Granted, it was briefly, but I was present for the dismantling of the public sector that took place in South America (I got the F out before SHTF). As you said in your post, I will never, ever see that happen again. Ever. My family won't suffer like that, and I won't go through it again. YOUR profit doesn't allow you to starve my family.

      Constitutional. It doesn't mean what you think it means. To you it is a barrier against getting something you believe you are entitled to from others.

      No, it means exactly what I think it means. Allowed by the constitution. Is there another definition? And no, the constitution is not a barrier for my entitlement. It is a barrier that keeps businesses, churches, cults, and yes, the government, from living my life for me. It has nothing to do with entitlement. It has everything to do with you throwing out an off-topic response that still seems out of place, thanks.

      Either way, you say tomato (short 'a'), I say tomato (long 'a'). We see the same problem, but from vastly different angles. There really is no convincing either of us to the other's belief system, but it's a beautiful country whose government allows this rational discourse, correct?

      Thanks for the debate!

    82. Re:Without power? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The issue with utilities is not that they are essential, it's that they are a natural monopoly.

      Provision of food is a pretty essential service, yet we do quite well with free-market grocery stores and farms competing to serve us.

      Electric utilities, on the other hand, have such massive upfront capital requirements and so numerous of permitting requirements for rights-of-way that it's extremely difficult to establish and maintain a competing utility. Hence why they are tightly regulated, even to the point of price controls in many jurisdictions. That is probably also why folks regularly are dissatisfied with their service. The price controls are put in to prevent the monopoly from abusing its status, but the side effect of that treatment is you remove incentives for innovation and investment. So nothing improves, people see no reason to let the utility rates go up, and you get this chicken-and-egg problem of low reinvestment and low innovation.

      But of course, nobody seems to have a found a better regulatory scheme, so that's what we're stuck with.

    83. Re:Without power? by dbIII · · Score: 2

      Or 4th gen nuclear plants

      Only is that same land is next to a big river, lake or sea. That's not a huge deal because economies of scale mean you don't want a lot of little nuclear power stations anyway, just a few huge ones (maybe small reactors but several to make a large installation and share turbines etc), so there's more than enough sites to fit the cooling needs. However we do have a rather stupid and entirely pointless myth that the things can be placed anywhere, and comparative land use arguments like the above are skating pretty close to that.
      Anyway, IMHO, a mixture of energy sources makes sense, and I had that one confirmed in the mid 1990s when I was one of many trying to get around the problem of diminishing quantities of cooling water for an inland power station. The "quick fix" took more than five years and was then lost after about six months when politicians gave all the water away to local farmers, so nearly twenty years later another pipeline was built for another "quick fix" and a new government is probably going to take the water away as soon as it's dry enough to need it.

    84. Re:Without power? by soundguy · · Score: 1

      Unless you live in a flat, treeless desert, a chain saw is another must-have post-storm survival tool

      --
      Nothing worthwhile ever happens before noon
    85. Re:Without power? by Falconhell · · Score: 1

      Yeh sure man thats why it has been successfully taken to court and taxes are now illegal. Oh wait it hasnt.
      Why are you randites so incredibly moronic. Go move to Somalia where your libertarian paradise exist!

    86. Re:Without power? by sydbarrett74 · · Score: 1

      but during 19th century it became largest producer and exporter and thus largest creditor,

      Ermmm...no. Just NO. In the 19th century, Germany had us handily beat in terms of export and pace of industrialisation (whom do you think was responsible for industrialising Japan? 'Tweren't the US!), and we were merely tied with the UK. We didn't become the largest producer and exporter until WWII (repurposing our automobile factories to pump out all of those tanks, carriers, planes and other materiel), and the largest creditor until immediately after WWII (Bretton Woods, anyone?). Stop engaging in historical revisionism to suit your warped Randian view of the world. You seriously need to pull that shit-logged copy of Atlas Shrugged from your rectum. I'm getting sick and tired of reading your Objectivist apologetics in every single fucking one of your posts.

      --
      'He who has to break a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom.' -- Gandalf to Saruman
    87. Re:Without power? by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Which would require multiple utility corridors all of which would need to be maintained, twice as many "unsightly" poles and twice the cost of running the service in the first place - read higher lot prices, twice the maintenance work to keep the trees cut back....

      Not at all. Just build all the power infrastructure in loops. You have to run power lines down both parallel streets anyway. Just run an extra line every so often between the two streets and make sure you keep the wires the same length. Better still, use switching hardware so that you can detect a cable break on either side, automatically send a signal back to the home office that the line needs repair, and switch over to the other side.

      The bigger problem is that the lines are overhead, causing the need for tree trimming in the first place. Every time a power line goes down because of trees, they should temporarily patch around the damage, but they should immediately send out the trenchers and begin running permanent replacement lines underground. There's simply no excuse for overhead power lines in areas where trees are present.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    88. Re:Without power? by ktappe · · Score: 1

      I'd heard the comments about "whooshing" before I ever encountered a modern windmill. It's B.S. Now that I've been around several (of varying sizes) I know they are nearly silent. Warnings about windmill noise are purely F.U.D.

      --
      "We can categorically state we have not released man-eating badgers into the area." - UK military spokesman, July 2007
    89. Re:Without power? by Electricity+Likes+Me · · Score: 1

      Or alternatively, they have so much demand that even at the additional cost and inconvenience of trucking they still can't meet it. It means continued investment in rail and powerlines is going to yield guaranteed growth.

    90. Re:Without power? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or perhaps the rural poor would move into the cities, where they can be provided with basic utilities at less cost to society. With modern farming methods, we really don't need as many people living in the countryside as there are. Why should the citydwellers subsidise their lifestyle?

    91. Re:Without power? by unitron · · Score: 1

      Any number of people are credited with that quote, or variations.

      Could I trouble you to be specific as to the person to whom you refer?

      --

      I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.

    92. Re:Without power? by tmosley · · Score: 1

      You do know that Standard Oil reduced the price of kerosene by 90%, invented corporate R&D, and was probably the first company in the US to offer paid vacations, right?

      Oh, I see, you went to PUBLIC school.

    93. Re:Without power? by Beeftopia · · Score: 1

      There is the concept of a "public good" - a good which would have too high a cost/benefit ratio for an individual or company to create but could be created if the society pooled its resources. Plus the benefits would be much higher to the individual than his contribution.

      Then there is the concept of a "natural monopoly" - a business which has very high barriers to entry. Think of the infrastructure of a utility or water system, or a railroad.

      So, yes - the private sector would probably come up with a few private roads, the use for which they would charge monopolistic costs.

      Ultimately, society needs to determine what is best for the most people. Not just blindly espouse principals or concepts for which the rationale does not lead to the most public benefit. The Mafia is a business. It is left as an exercise to the reader why the Mafia business is prohibited by the society yet other businesses are allowed to exist.

    94. Re:Without power? by Beeftopia · · Score: 1

      My freedom is to choose to not let the free-market make my decisions, based on what would be profitable this month. I choose to be altruistic and not say fuck the rest of you people.

      It's not altruistic. Trying to raise the standard of living for all of society means they're less likely f-ck with me. It means they're less likely to be hungry and diseased and prone to civil unrest. Seeing them better off means they have fewer kids, they're less anti-social and hopefully more informed. These things are in MY benefit. And yours.

    95. Re:Without power? by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      Many people are very NIMBY about solar and wind.

      Not untue. But if you look back at the list of suggestions (roof-top solar ; wind power) then by definition you are looking at people who are willing to put the solar panels in their back yard (well, on the sun-facing aspects of the roof, probably requiring temporary scaffolding in the back yard) and to put a windmill on a pole in the back yard.

      (Which may work in America, but wouldn't work for me - I live in an apartment, and don't either own a roof or have full control of the back yard.)

      While it is possible, with sufficient capital, to make houses that can be permanently off-grid, it's expensive. However, to produce enough power to run a fridge/freezer, a computer and a single air conditioner is a much more realistic prospect, which would considerably mitigate the effects of grid-power loss.

      I do wonder ... how did cities like Washington get built in the couple of centuries of their existence before the invention of the air conditioner? I've not spent much time learning the details of foreign history, and I've never heard this question addressed. I suppose that there were annual migrations of workers ("transhumance") from the habitable Northern States to the uninhabitable South to work on building the cities during the winter. Then when the South became uninhabitable in the summer, they'd all move back north again.

      Must have made it difficult to prosecute the Civil War. Or was that after the invention of the AC?

      (HINT : I may have different interpretations of "uninhabitable" to most reporters on this subject. I've lived and worked without AC at 48deg (Centigrade, of course) ; it isn't fun, but you can do it.)

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    96. Re:Without power? by firex726 · · Score: 1

      Just FYI there are many neighborhoods which have a HOA, and set rules saying that you cannot have a solar panel, even if it's not visible. If they find out they can fine you or even have you evicted.

      Lots of people would be willing, but there is this taboo about them and people think they will lower property vales, so they get these HOA's and cities to set rules about not being allowed to have them.

    97. Re:Without power? by darkpixel2k · · Score: 1

      I would much rather hear the 'whoosh' of a windmill all day, than feel that skin crawling, bone tingling, feeling when I cross under the high tension power lines.

      Nothing but your own illogical nervous reaction. If you disagree, I'd love to see any peer reviewed scientific evidence to the contrary.

      Peer reviewed 2,109 times.

      --
      There's no place like ::1 (I've completed my transition to IPv6)
    98. Re:Without power? by NelsChristian · · Score: 1
      Solar Powered roofs
      Wind power
      NEED I SAY MORE

      Yup, A lot more. When those high winds blow down your windmills by the thousands, how long will it take to fix? When those high winds break up your solar panels with tree limbs and bricks from the neighbors now busted chimney, how long will it take to replace half the solar panels in the neighborhood?

      Maybe you'll be the lucky one and your power will be OK, but there will still be millions without power for weeks if they all rely on solar and wind. Now maybe if they all had a natural gas or propane driven generator, they'd all be OK too.

    99. Re:Without power? by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the troll. Please post again if you come across something of actual value.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    100. Re:Without power? by darkpixel2k · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the troll. Please post again if you come across something of actual value.

      Troll? Seems plausible to me. If static charge can raise the hair on my arms, why can't high voltage lines do something similar? I am not an electrical engineer, but it seems pretty obvious from the video that electricity can cause an effect in things not directly in contact with the wire.
      Also: That's how radio works.

      And since my UID is lower: Stop telling people it's their 'own illogical nervous reaction' and post something of actual value instead of trolling.

      --
      There's no place like ::1 (I've completed my transition to IPv6)
    101. Re:Without power? by cboslin · · Score: 1

      >> NEED I SAY MORE

      Yes. You omitted the part about coming up witht he money for your solution.

      I was NOT the anonymous poster...FYI.

      Drilling wells ~ not sure what he was going after here... my guess is either water or gas... Fracking must be stopped, as 100% of fracking pollutes ground water which we MUST have to live. I can get my power from other sources...but clean fresh drinkable water...that is more precious. Many just do not realize this fact yet. But they will in the near future.

      geothermal ($10K - 20K pipes in ground, less than $5K if you do it yourself, renting a ditch witch type digger) requires burying pipes (cooling heated water with ambient ground temperatures, having water returned for A/C usage) Cost of device to transfer heat I have not checked into.

      Solar Powered roofs (I would like to know, esp the newer 3D solar cells that work when its cloudy)

      Battery packs to store energy...cost?

      Hardware to convert to/from home...cost?

      Wind power $800 (barrel type) - $15K (vertical type, blades wrapped around vertical pole, not normal windmill type). All the device I have researched have in excess of a 20 year life...which makes even $20K cheap. $1,000 per year / 12 months = $83.33 per month. I know many people with $300 plus per month electric bills for both heating and A/C....12 months per year.

      Hydrogen ($1K - ??K) Big cost is the storage tanks (propane type storage tanks, in a cold climate for heating you might need 6 or 7 tanks to have enough Hydrogen to get you through a winter without sun light. Of course that would depend on how many units you have separating hydrogen from water (clean water not required) and how long it takes you to fill up a tank. If you had enough hydrogen extractors to fill up a tank in 1 day, you would have to have a tank big enough to provide heat for 48 hours and you would only need 3 tanks to meet your demands.

      Worth repeating...NO FRACKING ~ as 100% of fracking sites pollute ground water and make it un-drinkable unless you wish to die.

      No Nuclear Plants ~ They are NOT cheaper and they are NOT safe. As proved by Three Mile Island and Chernobyl and even in spite of Fukushima some liars attempt to spin it. An "thoreum(sp?)" is as insane as Nuclear...its still a radiated material that has to be stored for over 200,000 years at what cost? And this crap CAN NOT be stored safely, cheaper than ALL alternatives, as the dry casks rated at 100 years, start to crack within 30 - 50 years. How much does it cost to re-cask one dry cask? How is that cheaper? It is NOT.

      Cesium-137 is documented to have a half life of 30 years, meaning it should take 10 to 20 halflifes (10 X 30 ~ 20 X 30) to get close, but not exactly, zero radiation wise. Yet 25 years after Chernobyl, scientists have determined that Cesium 137 does not appear to be going away at the rate expected...either that or there was much more radiation released than reported....either way its unlivable within 200 miles of the plant for multiple generations.

      Finally keep in mind that we know that over 4,000 energy patents have been secretized, which means the person who imagined it can not create it, can not sell it, can not do anything with it. If you have a new energy device, forget seeking government approval to use as the corporations have locked that avenue down as those 4,000 secret energy patents prove. Just use it yourself, share it with family and friends and warn them to keep it secret or risk losing it for their posterity.

      Run for office and remove any impediments to individuals and families from owning their own power, getting off the grid and becoming 100% energy independent.

      Before you can help others, you must help yourself, and by all means share it with others.

    102. Re:Without power? by emilper · · Score: 1

      Let them enjoy hearing "whoosh whoosh" all damn day.

      Not all day unless they are on the seaboard and can catch the sea breeze, most likely every other day or one day in three: most of the time the wind is either too weak or too strong. Wind power is useful if you can afford the big pile of accumulators.

    103. Re:Without power? by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      I am not an electrical engineer

      Obviously. There's plenty of info on this available, and a simple google can be your friend...I won't. Oh, and your UID means squat.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    104. Re:Without power? by emilper · · Score: 1

      "fairly good subsidies and tax credits", "reaping a nice upside for a decade or two"

      you mean somebody else paid for a large part of your 5kw system and will pay for two decades of feed-in tarrif ?

      you know that electricity is not like water that you pump in a reservoir, do you ?

    105. Re:Without power? by RockDoctor · · Score: 1
      "HOA" is "Home Owner's Agreement," or something similar?

      Sounds to me like something whose very existence would lower property values in an area. I'm looking at moving at the moment (OK, the wife etc etc), and I'd consider the existence of such an agreement to devalue a property by 10 of thousands of £££.

      Actually, I'm not sure that I'd agree to such an agreement at all.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    106. Re:Without power? by darkpixel2k · · Score: 1

      Obviously. There's plenty of info on this available, and a simple google can be your friend...I won't. Oh, and your UID means squat.

      Yeah--I found a youtube video showing how electricity can affect stuff outside the wire. So once again--how does your statement hold up where you bash the original poster for saying his skin crawls when he is under a power line? I could really care less about the answer--if it's psychological or a physical effect--I'm a tiny bit curious why you're freaking out when I jokingly posted a youtube video as a citation and then joked again about having a smaller UID. (Slashdot: The only place where the contest is over whose is smaller...)

      --
      There's no place like ::1 (I've completed my transition to IPv6)
    107. Re:Without power? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You've never been on a farm, have you?

    108. Re:Without power? by neonKow · · Score: 1

      It's wires and electricity, not nuclear waste. By your logic, maybe we should be afraid of balloons that we rub on our hair too.

      And you don't need to be an electrical engineer to get a basic understanding of the difference between static charge and radiation.

      http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/kitchenscience/exp/lighting-bulbs-without-wires/

      And no one is trolling you. People are calling you out for your stupid, uninformed, FUD-mongering.

    109. Re:Without power? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's wires and electricity, not nuclear waste. By your logic, maybe we should be afraid of balloons that we rub on our hair too.

      And you don't need to be an electrical engineer to get a basic understanding of the difference between static charge and radiation.

      http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/kitchenscience/exp/lighting-bulbs-without-wires/

      And no one is trolling you. People are calling you out for your stupid, uninformed, FUD-mongering.

      My post had nothing to do with being afraid of power lines or with spreading FUD. The original poster said walking under power lines made his skin crawl and his hair stand on end. He was responded to by saying he was nervous and illogical. If static electricity can make your hair stand on end, and power lines can make your hair stand on end, how the fsck is he 'nervous and illogical'?!?

  3. Understaffed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    And unwilling to dip into profits on a service that costs next to nothing to produce.

    1. Re:Understaffed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It costing next to nothing to produce electricity is obviously false, the capital costs of building a plant and laying distribution lines are well documented.

      As far as profits, this is one of the most heavily regulated industries in the US and profits are well scrutinized. The reality is that for investors to bother investing in a power plant there will need to be some profit in doing so. To maintain that heavily regulated cut any increase is costs will result in an increase in fees which will be unpopular with customers. They are not going to pay workers to sit idle until a storm comes along. They could easily capitalie small generators to run their essentials, but they don't because they prefer to gamble that such things will not be needed.

    2. Re:Understaffed by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

      "most heavily regulated industries"

      California would disagree.

    3. Re:Understaffed by tmosley · · Score: 1

      Only if regulation!=failure. The fact is that California is the most highly regulated jurisdiction in the US, if not the world, and any failures of commercial services are much more likely to be failures of regulation and/or regulatory capture than "greed" on the part of the power companies.

      Compare with Texas, which is clearly less regulated. We never had any brownouts, despite record usage of electricity last year.

      Most people incorporate positions on government into the religion centers of their brains. Will you be one of the few to rise above that primitive impulse and actually change your mind given new evidence and/or reasoning?

    4. Re:Understaffed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We had rolling blackouts, though.

    5. Re:Understaffed by tmosley · · Score: 1

      Eh? When and where?

    6. Re:Understaffed by bitingduck · · Score: 1

      When power was deregulated in CA (the Enron period...) the private power systems like SCE had incredibly high prices and brownouts. The municipal power systems had stable prices and power. Pasadena was rock steady, and City of LA DPW actually made a profit for the city while keeping power up for people far better than SCE.

      During the last major windstorm/power outage, the municipal power systems were better maintaned and repaired faster. SCE was a disaster.

    7. Re:Understaffed by tmosley · · Score: 1

      Yes, you had no regulations on a government granted monopoly. This is not what is meant by "free market". That is just a corporation becoming and arm of the government, or vice versa, and the thing that is formed from that giving itself the authority to do whatever it wants. They used that power to commit fraud on a massive scale.

      You are comparing socialism with fascism, and finding that socialism works better than fascism, which is a perfectly fair observation. But capitalism works MUCH better than BOTH.

    8. Re:Understaffed by geekoid · · Score: 1

      "..are much more likely to be failures of regulation and/or regulatory capture..."
      myth.
      The rolling brownout in California where made up to scare higher rates. It was part of Enron.

      This was all brought to light in 2001.

      "Most people incorporate positions on government into the religion centers of their brains."
      haha.. not true.

      Those of us that actually look at facts. As in read all the shit around these issues, have shown over and over again the government regulate infrastructer has created better program, longer lasting programs.
      However, in every case I have read where a government group goes public, the results where worse service, worse reliability, increase in cost.

      If you could be bothered to go down to the library and spend a few weeks comparing federal projects costs v. goal you would note something very interesting. Very little waste, extremely high success rate.

      Most large private corporation are exactly the opposite.

      If you don't want to spend weeks of your life* doing that, I could link several sites that back this. But you will excuse them away is 'liberal' and not actual review the facts.

      The person who is using belief over reason is you.

      *could be years if you get really detailed.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    9. Re:Understaffed by umghhh · · Score: 1
      These problems are all alike: due to nature of the system involved a single user of the system will chose to game it as it is more profitable for him/her. This of course increases costs and risks for everyone. The other possibility - if particular aspect of economy/society is viewed as especially important one may introduce rules and regulation requiring all participants in the market to do certain things (get a driving license if you want to use a car on a public road or pay for maintenance and modernization of your grid if you are utility provider.

      Another thing is that such disasters are unavoidable and as much unavoidable is that outages they cause will last days or weeks even with some people left without access to utility for longer periods of time. You may improve the situation somewhat by providing regulation requiring market participants to maintain emergency services etc. I do not know what US situation really is - it may be that it is not as bad as people present it only the natural disaster was bigger than we expected it to be? OTOH it may be disaster was bigger than expected but because regulation did not address the issues with utility provisioning, maintenance and emergency services AND utility providers did not bother to do anything knowing well enough that this would harm them because regulation was not addressing issues utility may have had. The result problems bigger than they had to be. It may be interesting if somebody analyzed the problems, regulation etc and provided assessment of the current situation, how it could be improved and how much would it cost. Maybe you have already the best that can be especially given hostility to anything that smells of general national approach allowing savings trough economies of scale etc. In a reasonable, educated and cohesive society one could have hope.

    10. Re:Understaffed by bitingduck · · Score: 1

      In principle it wasn't a government granted monopoly- people were supposed to be able to buy their power from whoever they wanted and have it delivered over SCE's lines. The unregulated market drove prices through the roof (helped by artificial scarcities created by the private power companies). The municipal power companies all had long term contracts in place (that they could get as large buyers, and that individuals couldn't get) plus some of their own generating capacity.

    11. Re:Understaffed by tmosley · · Score: 1

      So the problem was one of fraud caused by the power companies? How hard was it to get started as a power company providing power to SCE's lines? What regulatory burden was there to both startups and to expansion of other companies?

      What was the relationship between Enron and the other power companies (if there were any), and their collective relationship with the state and local governments.

      This is not a simple issue, clearly, but it sounds to me like a case of poorly planned deregulation, which allowed for insiders to behave badly without fear of competition from any new companies.

    12. Re:Understaffed by tmosley · · Score: 1

      If you are going to dismiss something as "not true", you could spend five seconds looking for yourself: http://pewresearch.org/pubs/859/what-brain-science-tells-us-about-religious-belief

      Back on topic, yes, Enron committed fraud and forced prices higher. But why were they able to do that? If they were pushing prices to artificial highs, and failing to deliver services, someone else should have come in and taken over their market share. Why didn't that happen? The cost of entry is too high in California! Enron was in, and had an oligopoly at best (I don't recall the details, whether there was more than one power production company involved or not), and had some nice government imposed barriers to entry protecting them, allowing them to do what they wanted. It is an example of idiotic deregulation. If you are going to deregulate, you have to remove the barriers to entry BEFORE you remove the rules forcing them to act a certain way. If you don't, you get rolling blackouts.

      Yes, I'm sure that governments are very good at completing their boondoggles on time. Sort of like how they built the space shuttle so that it hung off the side of its fuel tank, in what is possibly the dumbest design ever. http://emotibot.net/pix/816.png

      You can make all the assertions you want about government vs private sector, but until I see your methodology and data, it is nothing but conjecture.

  4. Wires by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Hint: hanging wires on poles where they are subject to damage from wind and
    falling trees might have something to do with it.

    1. Re:Wires by SerpentMage · · Score: 5, Informative

      I completely agree here... When I moved back to Europe in 94 they were in full swing moving power cables from above ground to below ground. Now in 2012 it is rare to see an above ground house to house power cable... With most of them, outside of the big distributor cables, underground it is also nicer looking as there are no more power lines.

      --

      "You can't make a race horse of a pig"
      "No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
    2. Re:Wires by JustOK · · Score: 2

      It's simply because Europeans are denser.

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    3. Re:Wires by starless · · Score: 1

      We're pretty dense here in the Washington D.C. metropolitan area.
      In fact, all cities are rather dense....

    4. Re:Wires by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I cannot agree more. I lived for a few years in the US and i was shocked by the low quality of the infrastructure for on of the richest countries in the world. My boss lost power every single winter i was there, each time for 3 to 8 days. Burying the wires was a one-off expensive but it would have been paid back within a few years avoiding power outages. I think the problem is really about short-term vision. Think long term, bury the wires and you will get cheaper, more reliable electricity.

    5. Re:Wires by mosherkl · · Score: 1

      Not dense population-wise......

    6. Re:Wires by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So instead of lots of outages that are easy to find and cheap to fix (because of downed wires), there would be fewer outages (from flooding), but they would be difficult to find and extremely expensive to fix. I'm not sure that I see underground cabling to be that much of an advantage.

      dom

    7. Re:Wires by MJordan666 · · Score: 1

      With most of them, outside of the big distributor cables, underground it is also nicer looking as there are no more power lines.

      True, but underground cables are significantly harder to locate and repair a fault (and they DO have problems) than aerial lines. No free lunches. Take your pick - aerial lines that are subject to frequent damage, but are relatively quick and easy to locate and repair or an underground lines that aren't subject to as many problems, but take a lot longer to find and repair. Not to mention the hole in the middle of your lawn that they had to dig big enough to get a man down there to work.

    8. Re:Wires by bbecker23 · · Score: 2

      Have you ever actually encountered a failure in an underground line? The industrial park where my employer is located has mostly underground main feeds (13k volts overhead tends to make people nervous with all the large, easily snagged trucks moving through). We've lost power twice since I started here and finding the outage was trivial. Hook-up at the distribution box, take a reading off the line and it gives you the distance to the fault. Walk it down and dig. Both outages were fixed in a couple hours time each. No way you could sink a new pole that quickly.

      --
      cat /dev/random > sig.txt
    9. Re:Wires by plover · · Score: 1

      The amount of buried utilities in the U.S. largely depends on the municipality and the utilities in question. Some cities are 80% or more served by buried cables. I remember a push back in the 1970s for one of our local providers to start replacing their poles with trenches, but that ended when they realized that there was no profit incentive in the equation. Burying wires for the sake of not seeing them isn't a revenue generator, and the cities weren't willing to collect extra tax money to bury their wires. Some cities came to an agreement with their electric companies to bury the lines during maintenance work, with statements of 15 year goals of removing all power lines, but those timelines were extended as the costs could never be justified.

      These more recent years of storms, however, are certainly getting their attention. As they figure increasing amounts of storm damage into their models, the breakeven point for buried cables gets closer and closer.

      --
      John
    10. Re:Wires by mrsquid0 · · Score: 1

      Density has nothing to do with it. The population densities in many parts of the eastern US and southern Ontario live are similar to those in much of Europe. One of the big reasons that the US has not buried its power lines is that it would mean either raising electricity rates, or reducing corporate profits.

      --
      Just because you are paranoid does not mean that no-one is out to get you.
    11. Re:Wires by plover · · Score: 5, Insightful

      they would be difficult to find and extremely expensive to fix. I'm not sure that I see underground cabling to be that much of an advantage.

      Look up Time Domain Reflectometry. With it, an engineer can find a line break or insulation leakage to within a few centimeters on a kilometers-long stretch of wire. Underground damage is just not all that hard to find anymore. As far as expense, maintenance of overhead wires is surprisingly high. They have to continually trim trees to keep them away, they have to continually fix broken wires due to storms or cars and trucks accidentally ramming poles, and the risks to passersby from downed wires is a huge liability, with millions of dollars of lawsuits per death on the line. Compare those to the costs of burying a cable that basically will just sit there for years on end, with generally no significant mechanical stresses on it to cause failures.

      The only drawback is making the investment to bury the wires. The payback is measured in decades, not months like the Chief Financial Officers want to see. They'd rather spend money on investments with quick profits.

      --
      John
    12. Re:Wires by acoustix · · Score: 1

      Not dense population-wise......

      Well done.

      --
      "A plan fiendishly clever in its intricacies"- Homer Simpson
    13. Re:Wires by dyingtolive · · Score: 2

      +1, unintentionally funny.

      --
      Support the EFF and Creative Commons. The war is coming, and they're supporting you...
    14. Re:Wires by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      So Americans are larger because they are less dense? :-P

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    15. Re:Wires by compro01 · · Score: 1

      Pfft. It is not difficult to find faults in underground cables. Just equip the linesmen with reflectometers and you'll have the fault isolated to within centimeters.

      And yes, digging to get at the cable is not trivial, but playing around with 25+ foot logs is not exactly quick and easy either.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    16. Re:Wires by jank1887 · · Score: 1

      density increases exponentially as you approach capitol hill.

    17. Re:Wires by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      This is pretty standard in new developments, but would never pay for itself in a lot of older neighborhoods. It also assumes there are no ground factors to worry about, like shrink-swell soils or high water tables.

    18. Re:Wires by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      Have you ever actually encountered a failure in an underground line?
      Sure. All the time. When I lived in Wisconsin, there was a tornado nearby my house. We were without electricity for about 4 days. Well, not completely without. We were able to run an extension cord from the house across the street, which still had power because they were on pole power.
      Then, I can't even count on one hand the number of times our office or our data center has lost power, and they have underground wiring. At the data center, it has usually been because of backhoes. They are attracted to underground wiring just like a tornado to a trailer park.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    19. Re:Wires by BigDukeSix · · Score: 1

      undoing wrong mod

    20. Re:Wires by bbecker23 · · Score: 1

      I certainly don't mean to say that outages never occur with underground wiring. But the idea that they are "difficult to find and extremely expensive to fix" is hardly supported from what I've seen. Even with your 4 day outage, it's like you were one of many on the list of outages and just happened to be near the bottom. I know, anecdotal evidence, blah blah blah. Neither solution is perfect, but there are advantages to underground lines.

      --
      cat /dev/random > sig.txt
    21. Re:Wires by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We're pretty dense here in the Washington D.C. metropolitan area.
      In fact, all cities are rather dense....

      Most cities don't have above ground power cables.

    22. Re:Wires by sydbarrett74 · · Score: 1

      The only drawback is making the investment to bury the wires. The payback is measured in decades, not months like the Chief Financial Officers want to see. They'd rather spend money on investments with quick profits.

      And if those cables are buried in concrete-covered conduit, it becomes trivial to fish new cable to replace the old at the end of its life. Underground utility burial FTW.

      --
      'He who has to break a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom.' -- Gandalf to Saruman
    23. Re:Wires by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "Look up Time Domain Reflectometry."

      TDRs for teh troubleshooting WIN!

      I've loved using them since my Phantom avionics days when they weighed about fifty lbs without cables. Great for finding "conductive but defective" cables and connections. I like the sort which have an "oscilloscope style" display, but there are a variety including optical TDRs for fiber.

      Since this is Slashdot, have a LAN version:

      http://www.electro-meters.com/Triplett/T_M/Cable_Tracing/LAN_TDR.htm

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
  5. Beacon Power by F34nor · · Score: 0

    Add battery backups to all the substations. Then add battery backups to houses (either fly wheel or lead acid.) Then add electric car batteries back into the grid in an emergency. Then pony up to the bar and pay for wireless space based solar (one estimate is it would rasie the median income in the U.S. to ~130k.) Then add smart grid tech so you can relight the grid from varied sources.

    1. Re:Beacon Power by Shatrat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, let's spend trillions for that extra 1% uptime instead of just let the people who absolutely have to have emergency power buy an inexpensive generator.

      --
      09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
    2. Re:Beacon Power by starless · · Score: 1

      A generator suitable for real emergency use for vulnerable people is not that inexpensive. For that situation you'd really need one powered by natural gas with automatic start if the main electricity supply failed. It would have to be powerful enough, in most areas, to be able to drive air conditioning, and perhaps other energy demanding systems.

    3. Re:Beacon Power by F34nor · · Score: 5, Insightful

      We spent 4 trillion on a tax break and two wars and got NOTHING for it. Why not spend trillions on building a huge industry that would make us energy independent? Money spent on building shit benefits us all. The fifties were full of crazy ideas and huge projects and what did we get, the most awesome country in the world.

      Also "inexpensive generator" do you mean one that can run AC? So in my house that is 4x40 amp circuits, plus a 15 amp for the fridge, two more 15's for the lights so a ~20K watt generator? So $5k plus installation, that's a two day job for an electrician so lets say $10k installed. Even if that is one in ten house houlds in America that is a fuck load of money. Why not spend it on something that will generate electricity for many many years and give us a hard currency export.

    4. Re:Beacon Power by DaFallus · · Score: 1

      It might only be an extra 1% uptime per incident, but when the same thing keeps happening year after year, it begins to add up. Hurricane Ike left people without power for months. And what did they do? They hung up cheap crappy power lines on poles to replace the cheap crappy ones that snapped. We have hurricanes here on a regular basis, so at some point is has to be cheaper to simply bury the damn cables instead of replacing them all the time.

      Given the quality of the wires they use around here, I'm just glad it never really freezes in the winter, because the ice would probably snap all the un-buried lines in the greater Houston area.

      --
      No one cares what your captcha was

      Houston TX, USA
    5. Re:Beacon Power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But, you don't understand, he NEEDS continued internet connectivity so he can post comments on Facebook about how bad the storm was!

      And then after that, back to WoW, to complain to guildies about how bad of a storm just came through, commenting how it was so bad that the whole area had to switch to backup power.

    6. Re:Beacon Power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I live in Canada where everything here is 2x the price as in the US ... a 7500Watt Hyundai Generator goes on sale for 650 to 750$ here (i'm talking electric starter and 30Amp 220v here) this thing easily powers ANY house (I know, i tested it !)... AC, lights, fridges, sump-pumps, etc ... the only thing it will struggle with is my electric furnace @ 10,000watts ... but i knew this when buying and have a wood-burning fireplace in case of a winter outage.

      you dont need to be an electrical engineer to make a plug near your panel that back-feeds directly to your electrical panel... yeah its against the code, but in cases of emergency i dont think this matters, people will do what they need to do to survive... (most people just back-feed through their dryer plug anyway !)

      so all in all, a full week of power-backup shouldnt cost you more than 1000$ here in Canada probably less in the US ... this includes:

      - 7500 to 10,000W Generator
      - About 30f of 30A wire and plugs
      - 25 gallons of gas.

    7. Re:Beacon Power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but its also not that expensive compared to anything else medical related, for a person in such a vulnerable state.

    8. Re:Beacon Power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lets face it. If all those homes had "Solar Power" they wouldn't have any electric problems. Power Outage would be history like the 50's.

    9. Re:Beacon Power by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And how many trillions do you lose due to power outtages?
      How many trillions would come directly back as taxes?
      How many trillions could you make by selling more power because your grid is better?
      How cheap exactly is a generator and the switching/gearing to connect it to your house?
      Your point is very short sighted, indeed.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    10. Re:Beacon Power by plover · · Score: 1

      For the crazy amounts of power you're talking about (seven days worth of air conditioning, refrigeration, and life support systems!) you'd need dozens of deep cycle lead acid batteries filling your basement. You'd have to periodically maintain them (measuring and topping up their fluids) and you'd have to replace them as crystal growth over time would kill their storage capacity.

      And plastic boxes filled with leaded sulfuric acid are obviously no hazard to your family, to firefighters, or any other visitor to your house.

      A whole-house generator is a hell of a lot cheaper than the amount of battery storage you're talking about, and a buried tank of fuel is probably safer.

      --
      John
    11. Re:Beacon Power by dreadlord76 · · Score: 4, Informative

      PLEASE PLEASE buy a real transfer switch. It will only add another couple of hundreds of dollars, but prevents the backfeed from killing the guy trying to fix your power.

    12. Re:Beacon Power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A generator suitable for real emergency use for vulnerable people is not that inexpensive. For that situation you'd really need one powered by natural gas with automatic start if the main electricity supply failed. It would have to be powerful enough, in most areas, to be able to drive air conditioning, and perhaps other energy demanding systems.

      A generator that is powerful enough to run hot water tank, your furnace (for winter outages), a fridge, and a freezer costs about US$ 2K, plus installation. That should be enough to survive. Ideally one would have either a barbecue or gas stove/oven for such emergencies as well.

      If people need air conditioning to survive (e.g., theelderly), then priorities can be made to restore power to nursing homes and community centres where the vulernable can be sent to and have proper medical monitoring.

      Every Tom, Dick, and Sally doesn't need air conditioning to survive.

    13. Re:Beacon Power by sjames · · Score: 1

      Or, rather than insisting on a backup good enough that you don't even notice a power failure, if A/C is an actual necessity to life (due to infirmity for example) you pick an emergency room and put a small A/C in that room that can run from a more modest sized generator.

    14. Re:Beacon Power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There is this thing called a "MAIN BREAKER" ... that you should always turn OFF when you use a generator back-feeding your electrical system, of course it needs to be turned off, not only to save the life of a linesmen, but to save your generator when the power comes back on ...

      they let you guys own guns and all, but fail to educate you on how electricity works ... mind boggling.

    15. Re:Beacon Power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you think an inexpensive generator is an answer in a storm zone you are far from right. Simply storing enough fuel to keep a generator going is in itself a horror waiting to explode. Having lived where hurricanes are common for over fifty years I can tell you that it can take weeks before you can even drive a half mile to get anything at all. Grocery stores usually have water penetration and all food is lost. Large flat roofs simply cave in in storms. The same is true of drug stores. It helps to have your scripts on a large chain store in such a way that they can be filled somewhere that is not crushed by a storm. Banks also are closed. No power means no banking. Almost all jobs shut down as power is absent and that means pay checks stop for a while as well.
                        In my town we suffered three major hurricanes in one summer. Two of them were only two weeks apart. We had no power for three weeks and I can tell you that many condos are not able to make it without ac in the warm months here. I had canned food enough to support the three adults in the home. So we pretty much ate cold food out of a can for three weeks. I had some steaks in the freezer so we could charcoal them as they would be lost otherwise. usually I made my coffee over a small charcoal fire. After a couple of weeks the roads were clear enough to get out so I drove 100 miles one way to acquire food in a town left untouched by the storms. TV was out as was the cable as was the electric as were the phones. A small generator would make very little difference although we did have access to one and it was nice to have a fan blowing the stinking hot and humid air over us.

    16. Re:Beacon Power by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      And when the power goes down, people find their basement-generators have siezed up from years of disuse. Equipment requires maintainance. Large batteries and flywheels are also inherently dangerous. The electric car idea isn't too bad though.

    17. Re:Beacon Power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      cheaper, self-installable: http://www.interlockkit.com/ (or even fab your own)
      you can only move it when both the main and the generator breakers are off, and it will only allow ONE to be switched-on at a time.

      I backfeed my house, and the key to start the generator is on a piece of string through the hole in the main breaker lever. kind of hard NOT to shut it off when I want to run the generator...

    18. Re:Beacon Power by Fnord666 · · Score: 5, Informative

      PLEASE PLEASE buy a real transfer switch. It will only add another couple of hundreds of dollars, but prevents the backfeed from killing the guy trying to fix your power.

      More like $300-$400 US for the switch, an additional $300-$400 US to get a qualified electrician to install it properly, and $50-$100 for the proper permits. YMMV of course based on location.
      Having said that, it is something you really should do if you are going to connect a generator to your house wiring in any way, shape, or form. To expand a bit, a transfer switch connects your house wiring to your generator's power while at the same time disconnecting your house wiring from your power company's feed. If you don't disconnect from the power company, power from your generator can back feed onto the pole and ultimately down the line to where a lineman might be working. At best the lineman will detect that the line is still live and it will take time to track down your feed. At worst he could be electrocuted. No matter what, switching your house systems to generator power should automatically disconnect those systems from the public utility. If it takes two separate actions then one of them can be forgotten and someone can get hurt or killed.

      --
      'The tyrant will always find pretext for his tyranny.' - Aesop's Fables
    19. Re:Beacon Power by tomhath · · Score: 1

      Why not spend it on something that will generate electricity for many many years and give us a hard currency export.

      Generation isn't the issue, outages are caused by trees falling on wires, usually in the "last mile" to the house. No on-site generation system (PV, wind, etc) can be depended on to provide power when you need it.

    20. Re:Beacon Power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you dont need to be an electrical engineer to make a plug near your panel that back-feeds directly to your electrical panel... yeah its against the code, but in cases of emergency i dont think this matters, people will do what they need to do to survive... (most people just back-feed through their dryer plug anyway !).

      Does this feed 220V through the entire house, or is there a step-down transformer built into all panels, so that the 15A 110V lines get the appropriate voltage?

    21. Re:Beacon Power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The fifties were full of crazy ideas and huge projects and what did we get, the most awesome country in the world"

      you're forgetting about the fact that almost all of our economic competition had been gutted by a world war. we had a really nice head start for a while. now, the playing field is more level, the barriers to mobility are almost nonexistant, and we have serious (overwhelming?) economic competition. Maybe these kinds of projects instead of pointless wars would help, but you can't just go chasing pipe dreams.

    22. Re:Beacon Power by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Or you could just hire all the millions of unemployed people to dig and fill trenches and throw a power cable there inbetween these steps. It would solve this problem once and for all and kickstart the economy as a bonus, all without requiring people to buy ridiculously large, expensive and dangerous batteries.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    23. Re:Beacon Power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Great, now United States is a Third World Country. Paying taxes and having useful regulations removes the anarchy of business saving every penny (saving that extra 1%) so that USA doesn't need to be a third world country.

    24. Re:Beacon Power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I just bought a 10Kw genrator for $150 diesel powered and it was brand new. I got this at the Ft. lewis army base. There is lots of equipment returning from iraq and some equipment never made it there and now the goverment is getting rid of it. Get one while you can.

    25. Re:Beacon Power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sorry but all my money is already spent on my fucking medical equipment. I can't buy a very necessary generator to run for weeks at a time because I don't have the money. In general that's the case that those individuals who need power the most are already strapped and can't afford one.

    26. Re:Beacon Power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, that will help with all those downed wires...
      It's simple... burry all cables and then you don't have to bother with trimming trees or downed wires... burry them all

    27. Re:Beacon Power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You could buy a wind charger. If you don't like that, then solar panels. It might not keep you in a manner you have become accustomed, but it would keep the fridge running, and maybe one small air conditioner. Where I live, when it gets too hot to sleep, we all go down to the basement and sleep there with one small AC unit keeping everyone cool. If you don't have a basement, it sucks to be you. I have small solar panels I use to charge batteries all year long (I'm not off grid). I know its all hindsight, but its something to think about. Panels would at least keep your fridge running (keep food from spoiling). The problem with having one giant monolithic energy producer sending power over hundreds of miles of wire is that when bad things happen, one break can affect a lot of people. "Single source of supply" also means "single point of failure". It also means "no competition in the marketplace" which seems to be a goal of every American company. It sure works when Americans have an election.

    28. Re:Beacon Power by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      $2500 for a 12kW Honeywell natural gas generator at Costco (not including installation).

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    29. Re:Beacon Power by necro81 · · Score: 1

      What in 's name are you doing with an electric furnace for your house...in Canada? Was there ever a time in the last fifty years when such a thing was economical?

    30. Re:Beacon Power by necro81 · · Score: 1

      Also "inexpensive generator" do you mean one that can run AC?

      No, an "inexpensive generator" is for necessities. For 99% of people out there, air conditioning is not a necessity. If you lose power for a few days, it is for most people a prolonged inconvenience, not the f$&king apocalypse. You adapt and live without your precious air conditioning for a few hours or days, like humanity has for all but the last century, and like 3/4 of the planet today.

    31. Re:Beacon Power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When the OP said "inexpensive generator" he meant "inexpensive generator" - that's how language works. We use words that have specific meanings. $2,000 + 4 hrs installation, and that's if you buy a true standby generator and not a portable one. Go buy a portable one on eBay for $1,000 and you can run your fridge and charge your cell phone.

      What kind of person *needs* A/C? My sister has two young kids and she was without power for nearly 3 days and they survived, just like the billions of children who also have no A/C in this world.

    32. Re:Beacon Power by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      The ACs just get stupider and stupider. Please tell me you are still in middle school.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    33. Re:Beacon Power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sorry but are you saying that your electrician charges you $312.50 per hour?

    34. Re:Beacon Power by LittleLebowskiUrbanA · · Score: 1

      Well, a cheap generator worked for me.

    35. Re:Beacon Power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The guy fixing your power should be applying the appropriate live line techniques, or have the line isolated and earthed. He certainly does not work on a line section because it 'looks' isolated from the network - even if there is a visible break. He should never be able to come to harm because of anything a consumer does.

    36. Re:Beacon Power by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1

      You're way overestimating the size needed for the generator. I have a 20kW unit that easily powers the whole house, two large AC units and all. I also have a 1000 gal propane 'submarine' - thankfully it's underground.

      The maximum continuous load for a breaker is 80% of trip current. Get a clamp-on ammeter and poke around in your panel box CAREFULLY! You'll be amazed at how low your current consumption is for each circuit.

      Many generators are rated at 150-200% surge current, which is exactly what you need for starting big AC compressors.

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
    37. Re:Beacon Power by OhSoLaMeow · · Score: 1

      The heck with A/C. I want something that will power my water pump (220V 50A). Oh, and something to run my furnace in the winter (100A 220V). Yeah, I live in a rural area in Western Oregon and it's not unusual to go without power for 5 to 10 days in wintertime. We suck it up and move on.

      --
      They can take my LifeAlert pendant when they pry it from my cold dead fingers.
    38. Re:Beacon Power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, if only I already knew what I was talking about, then you wouldn't have to endure stupid questions/postings like that. It's fortunate you put me down, it has made me considerably wiser, today. I had to stop reading the usenet years ago, because I'd gotten so damned intelligent.

      So anyway, I can cope with gleaning necessary information encased in a modicum of derision of my ignorance, and apparently, animosity is your preferred method of interaction. Care to include a bit of relevant knowledge with your belittlement?

      If it helps, I assumed that the main feed from the grid would be disconnected, so things wouldn't go ballistic when the grid kicked back in again.
      Am I not understanding how a "dryer plug" is wired in a house?
      Was it foolish to think that if I fed 220V electricity into the dryer socket, the distribution panel would have an integrated transformer for the 110V lines?
      Was the idea that one would feed 110V through the dryer socket?
      Seems to me, if the original AC claim of backfeeding is accurate, this is something I'd like to know before the big power outage. But y'know, I'm stupid that way.

    39. Re:Beacon Power by sjames · · Score: 1

      Again, you could probably pick one room and power a space heater in it. The water pump is a different matter. Perhaps a small auxillary pump is in order.

      Of course, given the apparent size of your house, the generator should be affordable to you. Your furnace apparently draws more power for the pump and blower than my entire house typically uses.

    40. Re:Beacon Power by lightknight · · Score: 1

      Because 1.) that money is gone, already spent, and 2.) the only real energy independence that you can possibly hope for with current technology involves an RTG (and the DoD / DoE / DHS all frown on people inquiring about radioactive fuel sources).

      --
      I am John Hurt.
    41. Re:Beacon Power by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Do you want it spoon fed to you?

      You can Google for '220 household wiring' and learn. I expect most /.ers learned how household wiring works sometime in high school. I think we touched on it in physics, but I had a practical knowledge before that. This isn't rocket science, it doesn't involve transformers, but does include advanced concepts like phase angle. Google and learn.

      Seriously, your teachers have failed you. You haven't yet learned to learn without help. A 220 plug is made up of two 110 lines and a ground. Those two 110 lines have a 120degree phase angle between them so they don't exactly add up to 220 (all those values are nominal anyway, YVWV). Your home electric service is deliberately crippled (short 1 phase of 3) to prevent you from running industrial (3 phase) stuff in your garage. This stops no one, but adds cost.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    42. Re:Beacon Power by dak664 · · Score: 1

      Automatic transfer switches would prevent some caring person from picking up the neighborhood load. However unless their Honda cann generate megawatts that would be a very short time indeed.

      Knowing this, an experienced lineman might not ground potentially live wires according to protocol. That would be a tragedy, but so would be falling from the cherry picker basket.

    43. Re:Beacon Power by F34nor · · Score: 1

      True but... remember this all being talked about because of the D.C. power outage and AC is a necessity for many fat lazy people who feel they are entitled to everything. Also remember how many people dies in the Paris heat wave a few years ago.

    44. Re:Beacon Power by F34nor · · Score: 1

      I ain't forgetting shit. We had 1/2 of the planet's liquidity at the time a fact that I mention often to old people who think we can go back to teh the 1950's. My point is exuberance, bullshit and balls will get you a long way no matter what. We can afford space based power PGE is already contracting for it.

    45. Re:Beacon Power by Sancho · · Score: 1

      Because budgets are yearly, and it always costs less to throw up the crappy poles. They probably budget for it, in fact. Next year's hurricane will be the next guy's problem.

      Americans have a chronic problem with planning. We continually prefer small, short-term gains over long-term stability and profit. It will be one part of our downfall.

    46. Re:Beacon Power by sjames · · Score: 1

      Exactly why I suggested air conditioning one room for those who might die from the heat otherwise.

    47. Re:Beacon Power by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      This is a good point. Tons of people are crying now because their A/C doesn't work and it's hot, but the power demands for whole-house A/C are huge, whereas a small room air conditioner uses much less power.

    48. Re:Beacon Power by tibit · · Score: 1

      Isn't the damage done by the falling trees and flying debris rather than wind load on the wires? Wires are thin and present very little wind resistance. Same goes for utility poles.

      My neighbors have a tall and extensive but dead tree: not a single leaf on it. In spite of natural decay, no branches have ever snapped from it, even in the aftermath of various hurricanes. All that while the trees right next to it have lost probably 40% of their mass. I don't buy it that wind breaks power lines. Every downed power line I've seen in the urban area where I live was due to stuff falling on the wires. Usually trees, only once did I see a very old advertisement on a tall post toppling and taking down the power line.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    49. Re:Beacon Power by jo42 · · Score: 1

      We spent 4 trillion on a tax break and two wars and got NOTHING for it.

      You got nothing for it -- but the rich white men that run the show got 4 trillion out of it...

    50. Re:Beacon Power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Absorbed glass mat batteries address all the issues you raised.

    51. Re:Beacon Power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ..... Just a small A/C (15 amp outlet) would suffice.. close the door to the room, at least you'll be out of the heat that can kill.
      As for the fridge, keep it closed. Yes, it won't stay cold forever, but it just needs to be long enough. If the stuff inside goes bad, it can be replaced. Canned food/soups would be a better option.

      As for lights, just some emergency lights would suffice, or replace some of your bulbs with LEDs (costly up front, but save even in normal use off of the grid).

      In fact, if the A/C is say a 6000 BTU, you could wire up just one "emergency branch" that could run the A/C, and just a couple lower wattage or LED lights plus a fan. a 15amp - 20 amp (continuous) generator could run that fine.

      Heck even something like this http://www.searsoutlet.com/Storm-Responder-5500-Watt-Generator-Non-CA/d/product_details.jsp?md=ct_md&pid=8487&mode=buyUsedOnly would work. When my in-law's friend lost power and it was hotter than crap out, she borrowed his little gas powered generator to run her A/C and a fan to keep out of the mad heat, and it worked absolutely fine. Get a heavy duty extension cord and you're set.

    52. Re:Beacon Power by msauve · · Score: 1

      Was it foolish to think that if I fed 220V electricity into the dryer socket, the distribution panel would have an integrated transformer for the 110V lines? Was the idea that one would feed 110V through the dryer socket? Seems to me, if the original AC claim of backfeeding is accurate, this is something I'd like to know before the big power outage. But y'know, I'm stupid that way.

      Don't underestimate yourself. You're stupid in many more ways.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    53. Re:Beacon Power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We spent 4 trillion on a tax break and two wars and got NOTHING for it. Why not spend trillions on building a huge industry that would make us energy independent? Money spent on building shit benefits us all. The fifties were full of crazy ideas and huge projects and what did we get, the most awesome country in the world.

      Also "inexpensive generator" do you mean one that can run AC? So in my house that is 4x40 amp circuits, plus a 15 amp for the fridge, two more 15's for the lights so a ~20K watt generator? So $5k plus installation, that's a two day job for an electrician so lets say $10k installed. Even if that is one in ten house houlds in America that is a fuck load of money. Why not spend it on something that will generate electricity for many many years and give us a hard currency export.

      Buy a smaller generator and only run part of your house. You can live without luxury for a week until power is restored. Run your fridge while running fans. We survived the intense heat about 30 years ago with nothing but fans. People can do it now but they can't stand even a little bit of hardship.

    54. Re:Beacon Power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      this is a problem only for category ID10T people who backfeed their house instead of run an alternate power feed (called "extension cords" [of appropriate wire gauge]) to important household equipment.

    55. Re:Beacon Power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or, just power necessities...?

    56. Re:Beacon Power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you suggesting that the trillions that the federal government gave to the financial industry as "punishment" for defrauding the American people was a better investment than modernizing our antiquated and poorly maintained infrastructure?

    57. Re:Beacon Power by niftymitch · · Score: 1

      A generator suitable for real emergency use for vulnerable people is not that inexpensive. For that situation you'd really need one powered by natural gas with automatic start if the main electricity supply failed. It would have to be powerful enough, in most areas, to be able to drive air conditioning, and perhaps other energy demanding systems.

      Folly.....

      There is a short list of things ....
          * Insulation.... Folks in AC country need MORE insulation than folk in the northern regions.
          * Ventilation.... Homes, apartments, offices are not designed for secure ventilation.
          * Water.... A cool water tank about the size of a hot water tank belongs in most homes
                                              flash heaters + a cool water tank would be about the same physical size.

      Apart from and after the above, electric vehicles have the generation and storage capacity
      to cool a room and maintain a refrigerator freezer for a couple days on a 1/4 tank of
      gas if and only if insulation, ventilation and water was available. They do need a converter
      to tap into them.

      Points to anchor on, we all know that a car left in the sun will get so hot it will kill. Insulation
      and ventilation would temper that and while uncomfortable the worst midday heat in the shade
      is tolerable for most if an adult is well hydrated.

      Ventilation... we hear it over and over summer after summer folks sealed up
      in their home die from heat because they are afraid to leave a window or
      door open at night. From Wikipedia: "Transom windows which could be opened to
      provide cross-ventilation while maintaining security and privacy (due to their small size
      and height above floor level) were a common feature of office buildings and apartments
      before air conditioning became common." Retrofitting and installing these or the equivalent
      should be a priority in all housing especially low income housing. Without modest
      ventilation a home becomes a sweat lodge on common days and a sauna on hot
      summer days.

      It is possible to put on blankets and "bundle" in the winter but body temp +5 at 99%
      humidity is near lethal.

      --
      Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
    58. Re:Beacon Power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I love ranters who don't know their stuff. I have a $700 Honda eu2000i generator with a $50 transfer switch. It runs my AC wall unit, 800 watts, a few compact fluorescents for maybe a hundred watts, and my Mac Mini and monitor, for another hundred. My fridge is 300 watts, 100 average. Range is gas, heat is gas, water heat is gas. Generator can be run on gas. Lots of gas.

      I have a couple 400 watt inverters that can run off an idling car alternator, with extension cords.

      If you have a big house you can do with less, O Fat American.

    59. Re:Beacon Power by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      No, you'd need diesel. Why diesel? Because if it's to be for emergencies, what do you do when the electricity and gas fail at the same time (say, an earthquake braking the lines)? And diesel because it is stable over long periods, and it would likely be turned on once a year for testing, and not much more.

    60. Re:Beacon Power by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      In all cases, linemen handle lines as if they are live, even when tested to be de-energized. What you are more likely to do is fry your neighbor or someone else being stupid in an outage.

    61. Re:Beacon Power by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      The fifties were full of crazy ideas and huge projects and what did we get, the most awesome country in the world.

      Partly on an economic boom brought on by a World War a mere 10 years prior, yes.

      Just sayin. The great depression didnt exactly go away on its own.

    62. Re:Beacon Power by emilper · · Score: 1

      yes, all those supplies used in the wars made themselves, there was no labor involved, no energy consumed, no taxes paid ...

  6. Why? You have to ask why? by udoschuermann · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's because we never bother to maintain our infrastructure. We build bridges and let 'em fall down. We hang power lines off wooden poles, and never bother burying them. We sort of fix it when it breaks, but then it breaks again, but we don't really learn from it.

    --
    --Udo.
    1. Re:Why? You have to ask why? by chemicaldave · · Score: 3, Funny

      In other words: cutting costs

    2. Re:Why? You have to ask why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's because we never bother to maintain our infrastructure. We build bridges and let 'em fall down. We hang power lines off wooden poles, and never bother burying them. We sort of fix it when it breaks, but then it breaks again, but we don't really learn from it.

      The cost of putting the line back up on the pole is significantly less than trenching and putting in new lines.

    3. Re:Why? You have to ask why? by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 5, Informative

      It's because we never bother to maintain our infrastructure. We build bridges and let 'em fall down. We hang power lines off wooden poles, and never bother burying them. We sort of fix it when it breaks, but then it breaks again, but we don't really learn from it.

      While what you say is true, the real problem this time was that the utilities were caught off guard. When they know a major storm, particularly something with hurricane strength winds, is coming, they marshal their resources ahead of time. Normally for a hurricane they have a week or so to prepare for it and to have extra crews and equipment on stand-by for the repairs/clean up. But this storm came without warning and therefore they are having to repair and marshal resources at the same time. Add to that the problem that most of the states that loan equipment and workers to the east coast for this type of work were also hit by the same storm.

      In the end, while improving infrastructure is a needed thing, it isn't the cause of this delay in getting power back on.

    4. Re:Why? You have to ask why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's because we never bother to maintain our infrastructure. We build bridges and let 'em fall down. We hang power lines off wooden poles, and never bother burying them. We sort of fix it when it breaks, but then it breaks again, but we don't really learn from it.

      Aesthetically, burying power and phones lines would be pleasing, but that's not without it's own problems either. Even burying lines in steel or concrete encasements underground brings its own unique problems (flooding, for one... ground shifts, after all, and has a nasty habit of breaking piping and conduits underground).
      . And we didn't put those lines on polls in the first place to be cheap. We did it that way because in most places we already had cities and towns in place, and stringing them on polls made sense as an adaptive measure. You'd literally have to destroy more infrastructure than it would be worth in terms of cost, time, and historic structures. And while lines on polls are somewhat more vulnerable, they're also much easier, quicker, and cheaper to fix. Doing it that makes sense.

    5. Re:Why? You have to ask why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In other words: cutting costs

      I know right? Fucking greedy capitalist pigs! If the utilities were government granted monopolies then this sort of thing would be avoided.

    6. Re:Why? You have to ask why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Welcome to capitalism!

    7. Re:Why? You have to ask why? by udoschuermann · · Score: 2

      You are right about the cause of delays if this were an isolated instance, but storms are not freak events, they happen all the time. Without even mentioning the smaller outages, we often lose power for extended periods of time (35 hours this time, 48 hours the year before, etc.) Each time this happens there are plenty of people who are looking at longer (week-long) outages.

      In other words, this is not the first time this happened, but the next time it does and hundreds of thousands are without power for days on end, they will again blame the severity of the storm and the logistics of repairs, rather than the fact that they left their laundry flapping in the wind for the Nth time in a row.

      --
      --Udo.
    8. Re:Why? You have to ask why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure we do. What we learn is that there are no consequences for not maintaiining infrastruture. If power companies faced heavy penalties for failure to restore power after X amount of time (paid to customers, not some agency) you would see people maintaining the power grid again. Of course, modern capitalism is all about using the government to protect corporate profits while simultaneously NOT using the government to enforce accountability.

    9. Re:Why? You have to ask why? by DarkTempes · · Score: 1

      While burying lines helps I can tell you that if millions are without power for a week it's more likely something to do with transmission towers (those big metal things with high voltage lines that you can't really bury) going splat than trees taking out lines.

      They are apparently not that easy to fix. Though I imagine those could also be made to better handle heavy wind.

      I form this opinion from living in a hurricane prone area.

    10. Re:Why? You have to ask why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right on. US infrastructure is really bad compared to other first-world countries: crumbling bridges, antique power grid, slowest broadband in the western world, old power plants, etc.

      People who believe the US is #1 in everything conclude this from a sample size of 1.

    11. Re:Why? You have to ask why? by ewieling · · Score: 1

      This varies depending on the power company. Here in Huntsville I have reasonably reliable electrical service. I can say plenty of bad things about the local power company, but service reliability is not one of my complaints.

      I work in telecommunications. There is an industry which should be held criminally negligent for their maintenance of the infrastructure.

      --
      I really shouldn't have used someone else's email address for this account.
    12. Re:Why? You have to ask why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      burying the power lines would cost too much for most of the grid.

    13. Re:Why? You have to ask why? by tomhath · · Score: 3, Informative

      if millions are without power for a week it's more likely something to do with transmission towers

      Nope, it's tens of thousands of trees down across several states. Crews can only clean up so many per day.

    14. Re:Why? You have to ask why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I beg to differ - no, we don't bury our power lines for the reason that it'd be a NIGHTMARE to maintain and extraordinarily expensive - especially for the last milers. In addition the need to protect the lines from water, little johnny who rented a backhoe but didn't bother to call before he started digging, the lovely trees Grandma planted OVER the power lines, and hundreds, if not thousands of other reasons. (such as heat dissipation, the additional cost for copper vs aluminum, the additional cost of insulating those new underground conductors, cost of repair work and the additional down time as you have to dig a hole (more than likely through the lovely bushes someone planted or the newly paved street)

      It's easy enough to plan for these when a new community is going in as there's nothing in the way - no houses, landscaping, roads, other utilities, etc etc. To do so after the fact? There's no utility in the country that can afford to do this. It's not an aging infrastructure problem - most utlities spend a goodly portion of their budgets maintaining and updating their distribution networks- because if you're not using power, you're not paying for it and, odds are, they're paying someone to get out there and fix it in the middle of the night.

      In populous areas burying cables makes sense - if it costs $100,000/mile to bury the service and you're serving 100,000 people 2 miles away - that makes sense. If you're serving 10 or 20 2 miles away you'll never make your costs back.

    15. Re:Why? You have to ask why? by DarkTempes · · Score: 3, Informative

      "Our problem, why so many customers are out, this one damaged over 50 large transmission lines and 70 substations." - http://wvgazette.com/News/201207010139

      http://www.dailymail.com/News/201207020077 for pretty picture

    16. Re:Why? You have to ask why? by jank1887 · · Score: 1

      baltimore-DC area was hit by a hurricane about 10 months ago, and had a near identical outage&response to what we're seeing this week. people with power out for 3-7 days, communication sporadic, centralized/managed sources of ice/water/etc generally minimal if existing at all. AND, this time it's been averaging 95-100F, whereas last year it was actually pleasant having the windows open and no AC going.

      The local authority 'investigated' the local utility's response. don't recall the outcome. but now, less than a year later, and we have almost the same level of damage, and same response time... maybe the latter makes sense. (we'd have done better than last time with at the same warning as last time). but why is the level of outage the same? Maybe that's what needs to be investigated. shouldn't a good hurricane have taken out most of the weak spots last year? did the hurricane create new weak spots that this storm caused to fail? Having grown up in an area with predominantly buried power lines, are there any preventative ways other than burying lines that can help? What about identifying certain projects to bury lines that frequently fail? A 'greatest net benefit' analysis?

    17. Re:Why? You have to ask why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can add redundancy to the grid at a moderate cost upfront cost plus some additional transmission losses. When a single point of failure can take down thousands or even 10's of thousands of houses it really is the electric company's fault.

    18. Re:Why? You have to ask why? by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 2

      You ask why is the level of outage the same? The answer is because in both cases trees were toppled onto power lines and power poles snapped. It is important in analyzing the events of this storm to separate the scope of the damage from the apparent response. It could be that the response has been very good, but the scope of the damage was so great that even with a good response people are still without power, days later. I am not saying that is the case, but without a real comparison between the damage now and the damage 10 months ago, comparing the relative response is like comparing apples and oranges.

      As for what could be done differently, definitely buried lines would eliminate the problem of tree limbs falling on them (or even whole trees). It introduces other issues, one being the cost, as it is quite costly to bury lines in already built up areas. Another concern is the height of the water table, the type of soil, freeze/thaw cycles, etc. Basically, anything that is likely to cause the ground to shift can be detrimental to underground cables. Although, even with the under ground concerns, the chief obstacle is cost to install and later maintain.

      Industry estimates are that it costs 10x more to bury a cable than to run it above ground. That cost is ultimately passed on to the consumer. Assuming that the ground conditions are even correct to allow for buried power lines, the question is whether the outage causes more financial pain to the local population (not just those without power) versus the added cost of burying the lines.

    19. Re:Why? You have to ask why? by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      Hurricane strength winds, when only rain showers were predicted is a freak event. Part of the recovery problem is that not only were trees and limbs knocked over onto power lines, thus cutting the power, but the power company cannot even get to the lines until the trees that are blocking the roads are cleared. From the pictures, a single chain saw is not going to clear many of those roads or power lines once they can be reached.

      This is not the first time a storm has knocked out power in the N.E. It is however, the first time this type of storm, coming from inland has hit the N.E. and caused this type of damage.

    20. Re:Why? You have to ask why? by dave3138 · · Score: 1

      My community of ~15,000 in outstate Minnesota just finished a 10 year project of burying _everything_ but the 69kV lines feeding their substations. We have a municipal electric/gas utility here, not a for-profit one. Reliability is much better now than it was 10 years ago...of course all of the underground stuff is new. Give it a couple decades... -Dave

    21. Re:Why? You have to ask why? by lightknight · · Score: 1

      Cutting costs, and no-bid contracts with serious, serious bribes when cutting costs isn't a factor.

      You know how the astronauts feel about flying a rocket built with thousands of parts from the lowest bidders? That's kind of our infrastructure; band-aids and duct-tape on top of band-aids and duct-tape; entire designs which compare favorably with the hairiness of some of the finer aspects of the PHP programming language ("It works well enough for me, and I don't give a f*ck"); like a bomb on stilts.

      My personal favorite, of course, is the quote from a source that "we can't bury the power-lines because it costs ~one million (!) per mile"; on one hand, I am a programmer, so costs from the construction industry (renting a back-hoe, buying some PVC tubing, as well as appropriate cabling and employing several people to operate the machinery, dig the ditch, thread the cables, then bury it) are not immediately at my command; but my BS detector is throwing up a rather hideous warning here. Would anyone care to confirm or deny that this number is, with the possible exception of trying to bury power-lines in a major city which, for some odd reason, doesn't have the infrastructure there already, so much fiction?

      --
      I am John Hurt.
    22. Re:Why? You have to ask why? by morari · · Score: 1

      My sentiments exactly.

      I'm in southern Ohio and my area got hit pretty bad by the storms. While my internet and mobile phone were out for a couple of days, my electricity stayed on throughout. However, there are people just a few miles down the road that did lose power and still don't have it back. The response time is pathetic, but easily solved by increasing staff. The real problem is that a fucking wind storm knocked an entire region back to the stone age in under an hour. Our infrastructure is so poorly maintained that all it takes is something like this (or the more likely ice storm) to bring it all crashing down. That is completely inexcusable for a first world nation that can somehow spends trillions of dollars on unjust wars instead.

      --
      "He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." --Paul Atreides, Dune
    23. Re:Why? You have to ask why? by tmach · · Score: 1

      It isn't about cutting costs, it's about not increasing costs.

      I live in Virginia. There are 4.5 million Dominion Virginia Power customers. Dominion did a study a few years ago and found that it'd cost $83 billion to bury all of the lines. Since Dominion is a regulated monopoly, when its costs go down customers get the reduction, but customers get the increase when its costs go up as well. If you divide it out, you get each customer paying a little more than $150 a month extra. Now, you could try to adjust for changes in population over time and make it so people who use more electricity paid a greater share of the cost, but any way you slice it the bill would go up by an amount that's too much for a lot of people to afford.

      Instead, what Dominion is doing is making sure it buries new lines. That helps at least. Personally I think they should be replacing mangled lines with below ground lines as well, but that would mean people being without power for even longer, and that would cause such outrage that the state (which still controls what Dominion does, mind you) would probably not stand for it.

    24. Re:Why? You have to ask why? by tmach · · Score: 1

      $150 a month extra for about ten years, that is.

    25. Re:Why? You have to ask why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On the other hand, better infrastructure would mitigate problems when something like this does occur. There is no excuse in not spending on infrastructure when we have people in need of jobs and infrastructure are in fact required.

    26. Re:Why? You have to ask why? by hey! · · Score: 1

      Back in the 1800s, people built stuff like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BostonMA_CalfPasturePumpingStationComplex.jpg. This is a *pump station* that was built in the 1880s, used for eighty years, and would still be usable today if the system hadn't been redesigned fifty years ago. Clearly, this was a building built to last forever.

      Or this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:StonehamMA_MDCPumpingHouse.jpg, which was built in 1906 and has been in continuous use for 106 years.

      Why build mere pump stations like a Romanesque castle or Italian palazzo? More to the point, why build such things to have a service life of centuries?

      The answer is that it was because of an irrational emotion: civic pride. That is a form of patriotism that is all but extinct today, but it was once considered quintessentially American. In P. G. Wodehouse's 1917 story "Jeeves and the Hard Boiled Egg" he satirizes what was evidently a highly recognizable American stereotype, the small-town Midwestern American businessman who won't stop bending your ear about the wonderful infrastructure they've just built in his town.

      So what happened? Civic pride is a pride of public accomplishment; the pride of building something that will make your home community, state or country a better place for future generations. It's been replaced by another kind of patriotism, pride of *pedigree*. We're like the decayed, increasingly impotent hereditary aristocracy of 18th C Europe. We're proud of our *heritage*, but we can't be bothered to do anything new if we have to share the benefits with other people. The idea of making a public project any better than it strictly needs to be to get it off our immediate plate would strike us as criminal.

      The era of great, or even *adequate* public works in America is over; our last great public work was the Apollo program. When the generation that created that passed, so did American civic pride.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    27. Re:Why? You have to ask why? by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Do you have an idea of how much money it would cost to bury all the electric lines in the country? And how much more of a PITA it becomes to repair when some idiot with a backhoe cuts the line?

    28. Re:Why? You have to ask why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No one wants to talk about the real 900 pound gorilla in the room: The sorry fact that we waste massive amounts of electricity daily and on stupid stuff like air conditioning. I grew up in a house without aircon, never suffered any ill effects because of it, dad put in a fan that pulled air through the entire house. But today we build houses that assume that we will use aircon. We put money into building efficient aircon, but nobody compares that cost to the cost of no aircon, of houses like the house I just bought in Tampa Florida that doesn't need aircon. Built in the 1920s it has 39 windows for 1800 sq.ft. It has extra wide overhangs to protect the windows (and therefore the interior) from direct sun. It has a big front porch and (most importantly) a crawl space.

      Most importantly, it has owners that aren't afraid of being warm, even hot, in the sun. We actually expect to sweat every now and then-- and i don't mean at the gym/workout space of your choice-- and don't feel diminished because of it.

      Addiction, physical addiction, as an interesting thing. If your body adapts and changes to physically require some outside influence (like heroin, alcohol, tobacco, or aircon) then your body suffers, really suffers, without that external influence. If I said you are a junkie because you "need" aircon would I be blowing smoke?

  7. If the problem was further north/closer to Canada by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...We would be happy to sell you some electrons!

  8. Because of 3rd world infrastructure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the US can't be bothered to bury their cables

  9. Because of Privatization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Because of privatization of the industry. They're too worried about profit margins to keep the staff at levels that serve the public's needs.

    Boston Gas & Electric is owned by Constellation Energy which is owned by Exelon Corporation.

    1. Re:Because of Privatization by alen · · Score: 2

      and if they were to put a new charge on your bill to pay for this improvement almost everyone would riot.

    2. Re:Because of Privatization by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Right because they're not paying health dividends instead of paying for regular maintenance....

      "...recent Public Service Commission investigation of Pepco found a years-long pattern of shirking such maintenance (curiously, at the same time that the company was paying its stockholders healthy dividends). The commission handed down a $1 million fine, its largest ever, for what it called a pattern of neglect. "

      Moron...

    3. Re:Because of Privatization by sycodon · · Score: 2

      First, these utilities are heavily regulated as public monopoly.

      Second, dilapidated infrastructure implies that it has existed for many, many years...before the privatization.

      Third, Power lines and other various utilities have been hung on poles since day one. Burying all these existing lines takes tons of time and tons of money.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    4. Re:Because of Privatization by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 0

      Right because they're not paying health dividends instead of paying for regular maintenance....

      "...recent Public Service Commission investigation of Pepco found a years-long pattern of shirking such maintenance (curiously, at the same time that the company was paying its stockholders healthy dividends). The commission handed down a $1 million fine, its largest ever, for what it called a pattern of neglect. "

      Moron...

      And not paying those dividends would have kept trees from falling on power lines and power poles from snapping how?

    5. Re:Because of Privatization by poity · · Score: 1

      That doesn't make sense, why would anyone keep staff who work maybe only 3 weeks a year? If anything, there should be contractors who can soak up random spikes in demand.

      I also don't see the connection between privatization and lack of staff in emergency situations. As if this were a problem that exists solely within private organizations. You also imply that nationalization would over-staff and be inefficient, but you get away with it by calling over-staffing "serve the public's needs" (yeah, serve them by sitting around all year doing nothing, and hanging up some downed lines in July and August)

      --
      your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
    6. Re:Because of Privatization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or, like in California, the state regulates (regulated?) electricity prices at levels too low to allow investment.

    7. Re:Because of Privatization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There's this thing called money, which you need in order to maintain things in the majority of cases. The problem is that if you give too much money to your investors, you don't have enough to pay for maintenance.

      It's quite simple really, but if you're still having trouble understanding it, I recommend "Money for grade schoolers." Skip the first three chapters, they're on how credit cards do not mean you have unlimited mon... oh, maybe actually you should read those chapters too.

    8. Re:Because of Privatization by F34nor · · Score: 2

      Natural monopolies should not be allowed to be private for profit corporations. Your arguments are weak at best.

      1st they are NOT heavily regulated anymore. The mines are a heavily regulated industry and the coal companies are able to do what ever the fuck they want, the energy industry has more liquidity than you can shake a strike at and in the real world the have come to indirectly control their regulating bodies. Look at any after the fact analysis of any disaster and you will see that the regulators are the bitches of the industry. Enron, Deep Water Horizon, Halliburton, Exxon, or a coal disaster.

      2nd is logical fallacy. Who fucking cares what it implies? The fact is that everything wears down. Some forward thinking people set aside money to fix the things they build. Excellent case in point the ceiling beams of a Cambridge building were huge old growth oak and the renovators thought it would be impossible to replace them, ahhh but wait the architect 300 years ago planted Oaks in Scotland for the express purpose of replacing the beams when they wore out. Just because most people are idiots doesn't mean that smarter people can plan for the future. It is in fact why we have representative democracy in the first place. We privatized it all just when we needed to make sure that profits weren't extracted before maintenance.

      3rd things have always been done this way change is bad! Also do you mean waste or spend? Not all spending is waste. Waste in this case would be replacing blown down lines for the x number of time adding up to a greater cost than burying it. It is called math it has a magical ability to determine the actual value of possible courses of action over time.

      In case you missed the subtext here I think you are a fucking idiot and a shill to boot.

    9. Re:Because of Privatization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The sad thing is that if they did it the other way around and spent all the money on maintenance and didn't have any to hand out to investors, the SEC would have come knocking instead of the PSC/PUC. Not to mention, if the stock price falls they have to REALLY start trimming costs, or they are ripe for corporate takeover by some other customer-abusing conglomerate.

      The problem isn't with a few million dollars going this way or that, it's that an essential public service answers only to shareholders and not to customers. But thank god for deregulation!

    10. Re:Because of Privatization by sjames · · Score: 1

      Yet, somehow it was afforded for phone, water, gas, and sewer.

    11. Re:Because of Privatization by TFAFalcon · · Score: 1

      And there you can see the problem. $1 million fine is the best they, or anyone before them, could do? What use is a punishment, if the company still profits from it's actions?

      Imagine catching bank robbers and demanding they return some of the money they took, then letting them go. That is the kind of punishment that corporations receive after being caught breaking the law.

    12. Re:Because of Privatization by ultranova · · Score: 1

      That doesn't make sense, why would anyone keep staff who work maybe only 3 weeks a year?

      Why do you pay for a fire insurance, despite your office not burning down most of the time? It's the cost of doing business, that's why.

      If anything, there should be contractors who can soak up random spikes in demand.

      That only works if there's a random spike here and another one there at another time. It doesn't work if there's no spikes for a long time, then suddenly a spike everywhere at once. You'll still end up paying for staff all year round, you just do it by paying a huge lump sum when there's emergency, rather than a predictable sum each month. That's not good for business, since you'll need to keep that money at hand at all times rather than invest it, and hope that you've guessed correctly about the size of the next disaster.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    13. Re:Because of Privatization by sycodon · · Score: 1

      You are right. I noticed how many sewer lines and water lines are no longer hung from telephone poles. Oh...speaking of telephone poles...why are they called that?

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    14. Re:Because of Privatization by ultranova · · Score: 1

      You must have a miserable life.

      An ad hominem at the very first line. We're on to a good start.

      I can't think of any other reason you would react so violently to someone simply pointing some simple fiscal truths.

      Violently? Please explain: what is violent in the parent post?

      Also, the grandparent didn't point out any "fiscal truths", besides the obvious one that burying cables takes money - yet this is exactly what was done to water pipes and such, so obviously it's doable.

      There is a shit ton of lines from 100s of years of infrastructure build out done way before deregulation.

      There is unlikely to be 100s of years of wired infrastructure, seeing how the first large-scale (ninety customers!) electricity distribution network switched on in 1882, or 140 years ago.

      Yet morons like you expect them to magically get all the lines buried in a matter of decades. Oh...and buy the way, not raising your rates while doing so.

      What would be your time estimate, then, and what do you base it on? Besides your apparent confusion that the electric grid has been around for "100s" of years, I mean?

      The rest of your pathetic post is merely warmed over OWS crap.

      Insisting on long-term planning is "OWS crap"? Either you're a fan or have pretty weird priorities.

      Why don't you just stick an M-80 in your mouth and save us from any more of your drivel.

      Ah, I guess you were projecting when you claimed that the parent post was violent.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    15. Re:Because of Privatization by jank1887 · · Score: 1

      the argument is it's too expensive to make the higher composite risk (liklihood and severity) areas more storm proof, such as burying lines. Not paying dividends in this case would have meant investing in infrastructure maintenance and improvement. Maybe some people could have kept the lights on because that. now, the whole thing is meaningless without equivalent costs to compare. (i.e., complaining about a million in contracted banker bonuses relative to a billion in the bailout, etc.)

      What would the non-dividend improvements have actually bought us if spent responsibly on infrastructure? Oh, and part of the 'you don't have any competitors for the infrastructure' agreement is that they will maintain the infrastructure, and invest in upkeep and improvement. hence the neglect charge.

    16. Re:Because of Privatization by sycodon · · Score: 1

      You are right. I should save my ad hominem attacks for the end of the post.

      In the sense that words are not violence, the phrase "violent attack" is obviously a literary mechanism. I could have said vitriolic or something else. I choose that. Go with it. The whole post was nothing but a rant on his part anyway.

      Oh! You got me 100s of years is inaccurate. How about over 100 years? Does that make you happy?

      Enron, Deep Water Horizon, Halliburton, Exxon, or a coal disaster. - OWS garbage.

      And about the M-80, merely a practical suggestion.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    17. Re:Because of Privatization by sjames · · Score: 1

      Because back in the dark ages that's what we strung telephone wires on. Then they somehow afforded to bury those.

    18. Re:Because of Privatization by sycodon · · Score: 1

      In my relatively new neighborhood, they did.

      So your post still doesn't make any sense. It's not a question of what it costs to do it for new development, but going back and doing it for the (probably) millions of miles of old services.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    19. Re:Because of Privatization by sjames · · Score: 1

      In everyone's neighborhood, they afforded to bury the phone lines, even the ones that used to be strung on poles. They even did it twice in my neighborhood (since at one point they dug the whole lot up and buried new).

      In many neighborhoods where everyone used a septic tank, they managed to afford retrofitting with buried sewer lines. If that was affordable, why isn't it affordable to retrofit buried power lines?

    20. Re:Because of Privatization by sycodon · · Score: 1

      Your neighborhood is not the U.S. It's your little corner of the world.

      Other neighborhood are very different. Different ground conditions, different existing infrastructures, different labor rates, different local ordinances, different street widths, different lot sizes, etc.

      In my neighborhood and in fact 100s of miles around me you can't really dig more than a foot into the ground with out hitting huge limestone boulders. They did bury all of our utilities when they built it, using giant trenchers. If they had to do it today it would cost millions and millions.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    21. Re:Because of Privatization by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      Not paying dividends could also mean that instead of infrastructure maintenance and improvement, employee bonuses, new offices, new vehicles, etc. None of that would have helped, either. Nor would have burying the lines, unless they were able to forsee where the next storm would have hit. Obviously, in hindsight, it is easy to say they should have done this or they should have done that. Unfortunately, hindsight ignores what a freaks storm this was.

    22. Re:Because of Privatization by sjames · · Score: 1

      In my neighborhood and the others all around it, they managed to retrofit sewer and bury the phone lines, but have NOT buried the power lines. So even where it's obviously practical, it hasn't been done. So what's the excuse again?

      Unless you're in a fairly old neighborhood where the sidewalk is directly against the side of the houses, the cost is the cost. The rocks don't get bigger or harder after people move in.

    23. Re:Because of Privatization by sycodon · · Score: 1

      They are harder to dig up/through/around when you can't just trundle some 5 ton trencher to where it needs to be.

      As I said, your neighborhood is different from others no doubt. Some, it's easy and inexpensive, others, its difficult and expensive.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    24. Re:Because of Privatization by sjames · · Score: 1

      And the retrofit hasn't happened in either one.

    25. Re:Because of Privatization by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Some forward thinking people set aside money to fix the things they build.

      It's not really idiocy driving these actions I think, it's pure greed. It's not that the people running these companies are too stupid to plan ahead, they simply realize that doing so costs more money in the short term, so they don't bother, so they can get bigger bonuses. They don't care about the long term costs, because they're going to collect their bonuses and golden parachutes and leave the later problems for their successors to deal with.

      Having the companies run directly by the government I don't think is likely to make things much better, at least not with the way the public currently votes. Just look at the USPS; it actually seems to be being run OK, given what they have to work with, but Congress is busy trying to destroy it with a 2006 law pushed by lobbyists that requires the USPS to pre-fund the retirement pensions of all the employees, something no private company has to do, and which is bankrupting the USPS. When the government is trying to destroy government-run companies for political purposes, having the company be government-run isn't going to help. The whole country's culture is broken. It's just like Mexico.

      Look at any after the fact analysis of any disaster and you will see that the regulators are the bitches of the industry. Enron, Deep Water Horizon, Halliburton, Exxon, or a coal disaster.

      Yep, there's a term for that, I think it's "regulatory capture"; basically, the regulators are cronies of the industries, as the mentality is that you need an industry insider to understand how to regulate that industry, but obviously what happens is the regulator's good buddies with the people in the industry so he doesn't bother to do much regulating. Just another feature of Crony Capitalism.

    26. Re:Because of Privatization by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      That doesn't make sense, why would anyone keep staff who work maybe only 3 weeks a year? If anything, there should be contractors who can soak up random spikes in demand.

      OK, and what exactly are these contractors going to do for the rest of the year, sit on their asses and wait for a call?

    27. Re:Because of Privatization by Sarius64 · · Score: 1

      Yes but the investors are not people as much as governments. Governments can simply tax you into oblivion. When governments started owning the utilities and appointing ex-politicians to run the "independent" utilities, we again let a legal mafia be formed. Thugs and cheats with no restraint should not own our nation's energy infrastructure.

  10. Pipelining by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Utility rate regulation is a system of assuring the investors of their return in return for doing something the public wants done. US Utility Rate Regulation used to be aimed at making sure that the maximum generation capacity was present with adequate return for lines and repairs etc. Under the George W Bush administration this regulation shifted towards "Pipeline" design for power sales. This stripped the local Coop or supply company of its revenue for service and maintainence. Further changes in regulation changed the position of the large generators so that they have little or no incentive to build new facilities. As such the USA is losing its grid to a very finely tuned profit machine that has no instinct for self preservation. Everything is now and nothing is tomorrow. The result is that the USA is fast sinking into a 3rd world power grid with massive failures and stunningly stupid management. The power rating system optimizes the push towards insufficient demand and planned brownouts. The 1930's regulation design caused the largest expansion and most robust utility system in the world. The 2000's are seeing this systematically dismantled in favor of "deregulation" which in this case is a farce because the regulation exists this is only a matter of how it is designed.

    1. Re:Pipelining by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      As such the USA is losing its grid to a very finely tuned profit machine that has no instinct for self preservation. Everything is now and nothing is tomorrow.

      That's not true at all. After the utilities refused to do the repair and maintenance they were paid for by consumers, they then went to congress for additional funding. Congress happily granted massive upcharges and taxes for to perform the repairs they refused to do the first time and had already been paid for. As a result, the utilities took the extra cash and tax revenue and refused to do the work a second time. They are now lobbying for a new round of taxes, rate increases, and grants to perform the work they've already refused to do so twice.

      Basically, the utilities companies have become massive fraud machines whereby their instinct for self preservation entirely hinges on corrupt politics and dumb consumers who refuse to hold them accountable for what is litterally fraud. Of course Congress doesn't do anything about because of the massive bribes paid to them to allow this fraud in the first place.

      No ifs, ands, or buts, they absolutely do have a plan and its working wonderfully.

    2. Re:Pipelining by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wait, so the failed California regulation "reform" of a decade or so ago, that gave us the infamous rolling blackouts, is being tried on a national basis now?

    3. Re:Pipelining by GreenTom · · Score: 5, Informative

      I work in this industry, and think you're misunderstanding a lot of things about deregulation. Electricity deregulation affected power plants, power purchases, and to some extent, the high-voltage transmission system. The local distribution system, which is what this storm seems to have hit, is still very much traditionally regulated in nearly all areas. The "EDC" (electricity delivery company, what most people think of as their utility) owns the wires. EDCs still operate under rates that are generally set by state government, and trust me, they are always under scrutiny. Also, an EDC doesn't really have much of a profit motive here: anything they spend on extra maintenance will be passed on to ratepayers, and anything they save by shirking maintenance will end up going back to ratepayers.

      Coops and Municipal utilities are nearly entirely exempted from deregulation, and run much the same as they did in the 1930s.

      In any event, this storm is a good natural test of your hypothesis: some of the affected states (Pennsylvania, Maryland, New Jersey) are entirely deregulated, and some (West Virginia, Tennessee, the Carolina) are traditionally regulated. Virginia is somewhere in the middle.

    4. Re:Pipelining by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Power pools are an international thing.

      I've worked on software for: California power pool. Australia. England and Wales. Ireland. Scotland. Western Europe (borders kept changing, started as just the Netherlands). Alberta.

      They all basically work the same (distribution remains tightly regulated, generation and inter area transmission becomes open market). The devil is in the details though.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    5. Re:Pipelining by ArsonSmith · · Score: 1

      Sounds like how public schools run as well. I can't wait for health care to get this good.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    6. Re:Pipelining by Falconhell · · Score: 1

      Deregulation and privatization power was an absolute disaster here in .au, prices have risen incredibly fast, and we have gone from relatively cheap power to the most expensive in the world. Of course deluded randites wont believe that.

    7. Re:Pipelining by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree with the parent. After the great Northeast Power Outage of 2003, the government took notice. New regulations from NERC are pushing the utilities hard to do do reliability upgrades. If they do not comply, they can not do business. This is a big headache to the entire business. Previously, OEMs would supply hardware/software based on Windows, and the utilities would use it for 15 years. Now, utilities are not allowed to use software which is no longer supported by the OEM. This means that when extended support for Windows XP ends in 2014, no utility can run Windows XP based control systems. You can argue that they should have upgraded to Windows 7 long ago, but there are a lot of XP (and 2000) systems out there. These machines are designed for 30-40 year life, with 1 or 2 control software/hardware upgrades planned in that time. Most OS's don't last that long. Sometimes the control software for the machines is heavily hooked into the OS and can't run on the new OS. These are critical systems and sometimes the testing and evaluation takes years to do.

      As you can imagine, some utilities are proactively changing these systems out for Windows 7. Some are taking a wait-and-see approach. Some are working around the issue by having a 3rd party company provide support in the form of security patches for Windows XP and other older versions. Bottom line is, the utilities are working on reliability because they have to. However, when thousands of lines come down because of wind/ice/snow/etc, there isn't a whole lot you can do about that.

    8. Re:Pipelining by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Sadly, Texas still has some of the most reliable power in the US (essentially on its own grid). It was tightly regulated until about 15-20 years ago, then was mostly deregulated (moved to regulated generation, deregulated retail). And is still better than the rest of the US. So I think it isn't related to regulatory status, but that the trend to transport electricity long distances leads to problems.

    9. Re:Pipelining by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't wait for health care to get this good.

      Join an HMO.

      Oh sorry, you were waiting for the government to make health care that good. Insurance is one place where I don't think the government can fuck it up any worse. Everyone in the industry is already masters at fucking each other over, weaseling out of contracts, stalling treatment until a person dies, etc. etc. Pretty much the only thing the government can do is make it cost more, but health insurance has been outpacing inflation for over a decade now without the government's help (someone has to pay for the billion dollar bonus UHC's CEO gave himself), so the government would have to do something incredibly amazing to fuck it up worse than it already is.

  11. Oh Canada by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Would be happy to sell you some power if the grid was working!

  12. visited to USA recently by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I am not from USA but visited there recently for business.

    I was really astonished by how it seems to be a third world country in terms of infrastructure. The power lines are not buried, they are just haphazardly strung up on big poles all over so they are acceptable to being knocked by winds or damaged by lighting. But it goes much further. There is no usable public transit system, and what there is smells of urine and feels highly dangerous. Even the internet is slow and expensive compared to modern countries. It felt like visiting a country stuck in the past and unwilling to join the present.

    If millions are without power after a storm, it is because they did not join with modern nations in protecting their power infrastructure.

    1. Re:visited to USA recently by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But but but.... My dad told me the great US of A is the best country in the world !!!

    2. Re:visited to USA recently by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You can't say all that without specifying what part of the USA you had visited. The United States, when it comes to area, is almost as big as all of Europe and, thus, creating a reliable infrastructure is a harder job than it is in Europe. You have to think in terms of scale, cost, and time/manpower required. Kneejerk responses are not what's needed. You can't criticize without first figuring out exactly what is needed and how it can be reasonably ("reasonably" being the key word here) accomplished.

    3. Re:visited to USA recently by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      ...and your entire continent is bankrupt.

    4. Re:visited to USA recently by ohnocitizen · · Score: 3, Informative

      Quite true. While power lines are mostly above ground, public transit varies greatly. Consider the differences between Chicago, New York, San Francisco and DC when it comes to the subway (operating times, cleanliness, safety, speed, reach). Of course, things are different in smaller towns, but I was under the impression that is the case in other places as well? I'd be interested in more specifics (including an example "modern country") to compare to. The original AC's comment seems to mostly hit on above ground power lines.

    5. Re:visited to USA recently by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And you think the USA is not bankrupt?

    6. Re:visited to USA recently by gman003 · · Score: 3, Informative

      So is ours.

    7. Re:visited to USA recently by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a US Citizen, I agree with you. Corporations and politicians (and some citizens who think they should pay no taxes) have little interest in investing in upgrading infrastructure to 21st. century standards in places where the very wealthy (what is perceived as the so-called "1%") aren't likely to live or frequently visit.

      It's very sad to see aging and decaying power grids, roads, and other utilities in many parts of the country. The technology and resources exist to greatly improve them, but we refuse to do it. Greed and stupidity have allowed our infrastructure to rot and fall behind other developed nations, and it frankly embarrassing.

      Of course, if you try to argue that we should emulate some of the European countries in terms of infrastructure and public transport, or if you argue we should allocate public funds to improve things (as opposed to allocating public funds to bomb foreign countries that are no threat to the US) you will be decried as an EVIL SOCIALIST.

    8. Re:visited to USA recently by tnk1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Have you actually been to any third world countries? I have, and I can tell you that the US is nothing at all like a third world country. In the slightest.

      Case in point, I walk into my hotel for business in a third world country *at night*, it's a fairly nice hotel even. The power flicks out. No one is fazed because the computers and some lighting are still on, but most of the lighting is off and I am standing in the dark in a hotel lobby, without a cloud in the sky. Yes, this is due to scheduled blackouts. The blackouts continue for the rest of my two week stay, with perfect weather. That is what a third world country is like.

      In the US, an unexpectedly strong storm with hurricane force winds come through. Some portion of people are without power for a few days because it was basically a hurricane without the days long weather track. That is annoying, but not a big deal.

      As for the rest of it, the US has a shitty public transit system, but 95% of Americans own cars with relatively cheap gas. We don't *need* a public transit system like you might in other countries. The internet may well be slower than what you have into your house, maybe, but I can still do pretty much anything that anyone needs to do, short of running a popular website from my home computer.

      The problems you are talking about are what we call "first world problems", not third world ones.

    9. Re:visited to USA recently by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      If millions are without power after a storm, it is because they did not join with modern nations in protecting their power infrastructure.

      If millions are without power after a storm, it could also be that nobody was expecting hurricane winds coming from the west. Buried power lines cost about 10 times more than above ground to install. While they do protect against wind, ice and tree damage, they have a problem with flooding, ground water and shifting earth.

      When a hurricane hits and millions are without power, nobody cries poor infrastructure is the cause. When a tornado hits and people are without power, nobody cries poor infrastructure is the cause. The sustained high winds that hit the communities without power are a natural disaster just like hurricanes and tornadoes. The recovery delay is not because of poor infrastructure, but because it was unexpected and the damage is great. As with a hurricane, if the utility companies had known a week in advance that the storm was coming, they could have marshaled resources for the recovery. They didn't have time to do that, plus the inland states that would normally help for a hurricane were also hit by the same storm.

      The US needs to work on improving its infrastructure, however, we shouldn't lose site that natural disasters are just that -- disasters, and they sometimes take a while to restore things to normal.

    10. Re:visited to USA recently by TapeCutter · · Score: 2

      Australia is as big as the US with less than a tenth of the population and our utilities/roads/sewers/etc are closer to Western European standards than US standards. The difference is regulatory frameworks, the US have gutted theirs in the last decade or so, kinda like they did with the financial industry. Australia and Europe have things like universal service obligations which make it illegal for utilities to discriminate against remote customers.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    11. Re:visited to USA recently by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have you actually been to any third world countries? I have, and I can tell you that the US is nothing at all like a third world country. In the slightest.

      You're right, when people die of lack of medical care in a third world country, people are actually concerned about it.

      Here they whine about paying taxes.

    12. Re:visited to USA recently by dudeman2 · · Score: 1

      Might have something to do with the fact that the population of the USA is far less dense overall than places like Western Europe (map). In dense population centers like New York City, utilities are required by law to bury the power lines. Utility companies have a captive market - where else are you going to buy your power, so in the absence of legislation, they don't have an incentive to spend the huge upfront costs of burying power lines in exchange for higher reliability.

    13. Re:visited to USA recently by Skapare · · Score: 0

      It is the best ... if you are a member of the exploiter class.

      --
      now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
    14. Re:visited to USA recently by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Truth is always hard to assimilate. U mad bro?

    15. Re:visited to USA recently by poity · · Score: 1

      [puts on CCP PR hat]
      It is true. By the evidence you have seen, USA is still a developing country. It has the 3rd largest population in the world, with a diverse and inharmonious populous, therefore very complex and difficult to manage. It needs to connect two far off coasts to the power grid. Because of this, foreigners should try to understand USA problems. Rich nations in the European West with higher per-capita GDP should therefore offer their help to the USA rather than judge and criticize.

      --
      your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
    16. Re:visited to USA recently by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "It felt like visiting a country stuck in the past and unwilling to join the present."

      Welcome to Corporate America.

    17. Re:visited to USA recently by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I was really astonished by how it seems to be a third world country in terms of infrastructure."

      This comment can only have been made by someone who's never lived in a third world country. I'm from India and currently live in the US. As bad as you think the US's infrastructure is, comparing it to the third world is so ridiculous

    18. Re:visited to USA recently by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >> so in the absence of legislation, they don't have an incentive to spend the huge upfront costs of burying power lines in exchange for higher reliability

      Actually, the more the utilities spend on infrastructure, the more the PUC will allow them to charge.

    19. Re:visited to USA recently by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know you're probably defining "Third World" to mean Sub-Saharan Africa or South Asia, but it also includes such places as Kazakhstan (Almaty's sleek subway puts American ones to shame), various Persian Gulf states (both Emirates and Qatar are much better than any American airline, and fly out of better airports), and Brazil (which runs cars on ethanol, not artificially cheap gasoline propped up by subsidies and foreign wars).

      America needs public transportation, urban planning and better Internet. The fact that it's slightly better than some dirt-poor countries should be no consolation at all. America should compare itself with South Korea when it comes to Internet speed, or France and Japan when it comes to high-speed rail. Why aim low?

    20. Re:visited to USA recently by Knuckles · · Score: 2

      You can't say all that without specifying what part of the USA you had visited. The United States, when it comes to area, is almost as big as all of Europe and, thus, creating a reliable infrastructure is a harder job than it is in Europe. You have to think in terms of scale, cost, and time/manpower required. Kneejerk responses are not what's needed. You can't criticize without first figuring out exactly what is needed and how it can be reasonably ("reasonably" being the key word here) accomplished.

      I had this impression in large parts of NYC. for example, driving into Manhattan from JFK in the early 1990ies felt somewhat like just having landed in Havana. It seemed not as extreme in the past few years, but still not what a European would expect. Then in wide area of, e.g., Greenwich Village the outer building walls from ground level up to the roof are haphazadly crisscrossed by wires for heaven knows what, which enter the apartments through drill holes that seem hastily plastered over. Obviously hyperbole, but it did remind me somewhat of India. I was there during the hurricane Irene scare, and was constantly amazed by the fear of wide-scale infrastructure failure, and looking at the state of the public infrastructure was thinking "well, no need to be surprised".

      --
      "When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
    21. Re:visited to USA recently by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 3, Informative

      Well, as an european I would call it typical US that you conclude from one particular third world country, that you had visited, on all of them :D
      Especially from one event alone.

      We here in europe call the USA a third world country with a first world army. Thats why you are considered so dangerous.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    22. Re:visited to USA recently by tmosley · · Score: 1

      No, because my grandmother isn't dying because of a week of warm weather.

    23. Re:visited to USA recently by mlts · · Score: 4, Informative

      There are also geographic issues as well. East of Houston to Florida is swamp. Good luck burying anything there. There is a reason why Louisiana is known for its elaborate crypts and morgues. There is just no way to bury the dead, so they have to remain above ground.

      The US is a very disparate country. Some places the cities are as safe as Europe (Seattle, Portland, and chunks of NYC.) Other places, not so much. One of the main reason why some cities are burying cables now is because overhead lines tend to be a target for metal thieves so they can get their next meth fix.

    24. Re:visited to USA recently by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That wasn't because of a lack of power, but because of a lack of Air Conditioning, as people just didn't need it.

    25. Re:visited to USA recently by nelsonal · · Score: 3, Informative

      Australia's population density is somewhat misleading, like Canada, it's fairly densly populated where there are people and essentially empty elsewhere. The US is made up of a number of people on coasts, and a huge number of smaller, remote inland cities imagine Australia's infastructure requirements if 1/4 of the population (and half of Parliment) were made up of people who came from essentially cities like Alice Springs spread throughout the inland. We have universal service obligations as well.

      --
      Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
    26. Re:visited to USA recently by tnk1 · · Score: 2

      Again, it's like saying that Europe has a pony, so I need a pony too or I'm somehow a third world country. It's nice that you all have public transit systems, but even if we had a nice public transit system, I'd still not want to use it. I *like* not having to share a train with hundreds of my closest friends when I go to work every morning. I get in my car, turn on my stereo and a half hour later, I'm at work. And this is in fairly heavy traffic.

      As for better Internet, I'm not arguing against it, but everyone I know has the ability to stream just about everything they want or play any online game they want, with low latency, using just what bandwidth we have. I imagine that as available bandwidth goes up, we will find more uses for it, but I'm not seeing why we have to have it just to have it. I'm not even sure what you are doing with that bandwidth other than stating that you have a higher number. My car goes to 160mph, but I can't imagine anywhere I'd get even close to that, short of a very good run on a track. Bandwidth speeds will go up as they need to.

    27. Re:visited to USA recently by what2123 · · Score: 1

      The cake really is a lie. You know exactly what I mean too. I don't have mod points but I figured giving you props in a comment is cool enough.

    28. Re:visited to USA recently by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 1

      That wasn't because of a lack of power, but because of a lack of Air Conditioning, as people just didn't need it.

      Untrue. The people who died needed it.

      --
      Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
    29. Re:visited to USA recently by dreadlord76 · · Score: 1

      Really? Tons of people die everywhere. In the grand scheme of things, we all die, with or without medical care. The universe does not give a rats ass about us. There are countries in the world that you can't get medical care unless you pay at the door. There are countries with supposedly universal healthcare, that if you don't pay your mandated premium, that you don't get care.

    30. Re:visited to USA recently by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am not from USA but visited there recently for business.

      I was really astonished by how it seems to be a third world country in terms of infrastructure. The power lines are not buried, they are just haphazardly strung up on big poles all over so they are acceptable to being knocked by winds or damaged by lighting. But it goes much further. There is no usable public transit system, and what there is smells of urine and feels highly dangerous. Even the internet is slow and expensive compared to modern countries. It felt like visiting a country stuck in the past and unwilling to join the present.

      If millions are without power after a storm, it is because they did not join with modern nations in protecting their power infrastructure.

      Let's not forgot that a geographically specific weather event was responsible for this situation. The Americas are part of a North to South continent where clashing air masses create volatile mid latitude weather conditions. What may be seen as a weakness here (an aging and vulnerable infrastructure with frequent severe weather) could absolutely also be a liability elsewhere for different reasons. Do you think the sardine can nature of 3000 year old cities and overbuilt urban environments in Europe would fair better, in say even a moderate earthquake, F2 Tornado, or a Cat 1 Hurricane? The fact is, that as a topographically protected East to West Continent, Europe has been spared the extreme side of global weather patterns.

    31. Re:visited to USA recently by alen · · Score: 0

      the buildings in Greenwich village date to the 1800's. unlike europe, the US states haven't bombed each other every 50 years killing millions of people so no need to build new buildings

    32. Re:visited to USA recently by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not to mention that people tend to forget the geographic size of the U.S in comparison to these "modern" nations.

    33. Re:visited to USA recently by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      As an American, I'd call it typical European that you assume that I have only been to one third world country simply because I used only one example for brevity. I'm not here to have a competition to compare the number of times I've gone sightseeing.

      As for our army, its amusing that we're considered dangerous when European armies and governments are probably the reason that most of the continents near or below the equator are saddled with unstable governments with dependence on resource extraction. Oh yeah, and two world wars. It's nice that you all have reformed in the last 50 years and all, but it's always touch and go to have the recovering alcoholic preaching to the rest of the group. Especially a German of all people. You do realize that the reason we even have this huge-ass permanent army is that we had to first beat your ass, and then protect your beaten ass from Asiatic hordes that you all suckerpunched. Our regular army was smaller than the UK's before that all went down. Thanks.

      But you know, that's okay. We actually don't use that much Persian Gulf oil compared to you all and the Chinese. I think it would be a great idea to pull our carrier groups out of there. And we don't need European bases any more either. Those Russians are completely reformed, particularly that nice chekist Vladimir.

    34. Re:visited to USA recently by geekoid · · Score: 2

      Any underground system that has a problem with ground water and flooding isn't built correctly.
      Any earth movement sufficient to disrupts electrical line will be local, and will be the same issue if they had been above ground.

      When ever electricity is lot to wind people talk about the infrastructure; which needs to be modernized.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    35. Re:visited to USA recently by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Having actually lived in a third world country for more than half my life I can tell you that the USA is not one.
      Sure, I like to poke fun at their mismanaged public utilities as much as the next person.
      But where I grew up we regularly went without power for hours, and one time even for days.
      Even now power will regularly go out for several seconds and turn back on.
      Then there was the 2 weeks that the water smelled like diesel.
      Taking a shower in that is really unsettling.
      Or all the times that we only had water pressure for 2 hours in the morning.
      And I've never heard of your clothes turning red from all the rust in the water in America.

      So yeah, the USA might be a bit behind in some ways, but calling it a third world country is a vastly exaggerating.

    36. Re:visited to USA recently by Knuckles · · Score: 1

      Large parts of European cities, especially residential quarters, also date to the 1800s (typically to 1850-90, with some patches even dating back to the 1700s, and typically early 1900-10 at the latest (e.g., the Gründerzeit in Germany and Austria)), have not been destroyed in the war, and nevertheless have proper installations.

      --
      "When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
    37. Re:visited to USA recently by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh yeah, and two world wars.

      Don't go blaming everyone for that.

      You do realize that the reason we even have this huge-ass permanent army is that we had to first beat your ass, and then protect your beaten ass from Asiatic hordes that you all suckerpunched.

      Our army is ridiculously large and costly. I wish we'd put our money into something more useful. Or better yet, just stop spending it on worthless shit, stop acting like we own the world, and stop being paranoid about terrorists and other countries!

    38. Re:visited to USA recently by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >> ...and your entire continent is bankrupt.
      I guess you only watch Fox News. It was our banking industry that triggered the economic downturn in 2008. We didn't just damage our own economy, we took down parts of the EU and Asia.

    39. Re:visited to USA recently by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yes you are right, the cables should be buried, just not sure where these people should bury the cables - https://ssl.panoramio.com/photo/60344605

    40. Re:visited to USA recently by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Saying the US doesn't need a public transit system because gas is cheap is exactly why this country is in decline. The US and our government are infested with greedy, selfish, short-sighted thinkers. Instead of progressing as a society we're happy to maintain the status quo even if it kills us.

      The country is in serious need of reform and cleaning house.

    41. Re:visited to USA recently by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I can tell you that the US is nothing at all like a third world country. In the slightest."

      Ever been to Detroit, Michigan? Detroit is not like the third world; it's like the third world during an endemic civil war.

      But, not surprisingly, Detroit is similar to many other urban areas across the country. If you seek a third world scenario in the USA, you usually don't have to look hard to find it.

    42. Re:visited to USA recently by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Duh, I've been to third world countries (also those with regulated blackouts), eastern european countries, western countries (all over europe) and are on my way to asian countries. USA is a third world country no doubt about it except some few places. It's your fault being brainwashed and all by the business looking for that penny in profit instead of good living. The rest of the world (mostly) looks for good living standard and health care and pay taxes. Americans have yet to learn that we live today and money wont do you any good when you are sick or dead.

    43. Re:visited to USA recently by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I had this impression in large parts of NYC. for example, driving into Manhattan from JFK in the early 1990ies felt somewhat like just having landed in Havana. It seemed not as extreme in the past few years, but still not what a European would expect.

      If you want to feel like you're in a shithole, try flying in to ANY country in Central/South America, southeast asia, or the like. Their international airports are deliberately put in places with, erm, "depressed" real estate values. I have seen some of the worst stretches of existence (and by stretches I mean miles and miles) in these places. NYC looks like a paradise (even the areas around LGA and JFK). It's all a matter of perspective. Some euro tosser thinks he is high and mighty since his home country favors buried power lines but in reality, utility investment is a spectrum and some areas get a lot of it while other areas get little. Every country is like that.

    44. Re:visited to USA recently by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, keeping the power on is a 3rd world problem.

      We should not be having this problem at all.

      But its our own fucking fault. we've been here with our head up our ass yelling 'america fuck yeah' while handing our infastructure over to for profit companies..
      And we're shocked... SHOCKED... they worked for short term profit only and didnt bother building anything or improving our systems.

      It's our own motherfucking fault. Sometimes a little socialisim is a good thing you morons.

      Especially when it keeps the power on.

      God we're so fucking stupid in the usa. It should be a crime to be this stupid.

    45. Re:visited to USA recently by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Consider The USA has the same landmass as China, Russia or Europe.

      Consider the USA has broadband, or something close to broadband, available to all 330 million people. China has yet to do that one.

      Consider we deliver power to all 330 million people more or less, and where there is no power, there's generators. Sure it isn't 100mbit like in Korea, but you aren't going to get 100mbit when downloading your American pr0n. 10-20Mbit is available to most suburban areas , that is not true in Europe.

      Consider the USA has a standardized power grid that only goes down in extremely bad weather. In Chicago we have, maybe, a day of downtime per year. In Europe every country has a different language and different standard of power and power outlets.

      Consider burying power lines is NOT a good solution as the air acts as a cooling agent for important devices like transformers and isolators; underground you have to cool it in a very dirty environmentally bad way and is thus prohibitively expensive.

      Consider the reason BGE is having a PITB getting the juice flowing again is because we are in the middle of a commodities price ramp right now which is compressing their margins as gas, coal and nuclear are all ramping in price. The price of electric is regulated by the states so you don't see a bigger bill so what does the cost come out of? Labor and equipment. Additionally, they can't just put up Nuclear Power and we're seeing the closure of conventional power plants such as Fisk Station in Chicago without a replacement. So the price is going to go up further due to that, and margin down.

      Until we're willing to get some actual regulation in the markets and put some actual handcuffs on some bankers and change some actual laws to "AS THE SECRETARY OF THE SEC YOU WILL DO X TO THE BEST OF YOUR ABILITY OR YOU WILL GO TO JAIL", these things will not change.

      When the bubble of 2012 pops, and next year rolls around, and those companies aren't under horrendous margin compression, things will change. Until then, STFU.

    46. Re:visited to USA recently by jafiwam · · Score: 1

      Why did you go to New York City?

    47. Re:visited to USA recently by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I like overhead power lines.
      Lightning gets to hit the top wire of a power line rather than taking out me or a nearby tree.

    48. Re:visited to USA recently by Tailhook · · Score: 2

      The last time France had >38C temperatures over 14,000 elderly died, many in understaffed hospital wards while government employees were on vacation.

      third world indeed

      There is no usable public transit system, and what there is smells of urine and feels highly dangerous

      Stay away from public transit; that's for 'students' and the welfare state's underclass which are increasingly synonymous and equally dangerous to phone/pad/laptop/credit-card equipped business people. We drive cars in the US.

      The power lines are not buried, they are just haphazardly strung up on big poles all over

      New construction (<30 years old) doesn't look like that -- power lines are buried. Existing infrastructure doesn't get improved. Municipalities and their quasi-goverment power companies have better things to spend their lavish budgets on than burying power lines.

      --
      Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
    49. Re:visited to USA recently by jafiwam · · Score: 1

      USA! USA! USA! Fuck yea! Euro-types better watch out or we'll tank our banking industry again just to get them.

    50. Re:visited to USA recently by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Merkins did not beat the Germans. The Russians did. And to call them "Asiatic hordes" is both racist and stupid at the same time. How typical for "an American".

    51. Re:visited to USA recently by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Just the Mediterranean. The problem is the Euro: countries who's economy is based on exporting industrial products are helped by it because the other countries drag the value of their currency down, and those other countries - who's economy is typically based on tourism - are harmed because the industrial countries drag their currency up. The result is a trade imbalance within the EU, and those usually end up with someone bankrupt.

      This could all be solved easily if all the countries got their own currencies back and let them float freely relative to each other, in which case the imbalances would tend to re-balance themselves. We could even retain the Euro as something all the central banks are guaranteed to buy at current market value in exchange of the country's own currency. As is, the solution we are doing now is simply moving money from the industrial north to the tourist south, which works somewhat but makes the northerners angry and demanding austerity from the south, which in turn makes the south suffer even more.

      In any case, this is a completely different case from the US, which really is bankrupt as a whole as a result of decades of mismanagement and several extremely costly wars. Oh, and it's also plagued by a two-party system where one party is a bunch of spineless wimps, while the other is a bunch of crazy religiously zealous sodomites who worship Satan in all but name (pick an issue, any issue; the Republicans will always be on whatever side gets most people screwed over, and specifically thrown in prison, not to mention glorify greed and selfishness) while having a monomaniacal obsession with homosexuality even the most obsessive pervert would be jealous of. In short, it's a miracle it has taken this long for you to begin collapsing, and you won't be rising again anytime soon.

      Which is unfortunate, since it leaves China as the next superpower.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    52. Re:visited to USA recently by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      And it is Europe's governments and central banks that are triggering the economic downturn of 2012.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    53. Re:visited to USA recently by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Yet immigrants continue to move to the USA from your home country. All they all fools?

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    54. Re:visited to USA recently by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Frost heaves don't affect power poles significantly.

      Underground lines have higher losses then above ground. It's an instant 1-2% hit. Nationwide that is a buttload of fuel/year.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    55. Re:visited to USA recently by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      Earthquakes aren't the only kind of earth movement. Shrink-swell soils can wreak havoc on pipe systems while being quite benign for wires overhead.

    56. Re:visited to USA recently by dkleinsc · · Score: 1

      It's nice that you all have public transit systems, but even if we had a nice public transit system, I'd still not want to use it. I *like* not having to share a train with hundreds of my closest friends when I go to work every morning. I get in my car, turn on my stereo and a half hour later, I'm at work.

      As somebody who shares a bus with a bunch of people every day, here's why I like doing that:
      1. It's cheaper for me than driving and parking where I work.
      2. It's very little difference in time.
      3. It gives me a good excuse to not stay 5 minutes later at work for stupid reasons ("sorry, gotta run, going to miss my bus")
      4. It gives me an hour to read a book.

      Yes, there's an occasional weirdo, but I consider that a worthwhile tradeoff. There's also an occasional hot chick, too.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    57. Re:visited to USA recently by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you have a good camera, a single day's photo session can easily produce 10GB of photos. Enjoy spending two weeks sending that somewhere over the network.

      Fair enough about the transit system, but that bandwidth comment is just helpless apologist crap. You know you aren't getting any of it so you make up excuses to make it seem like that's OK. Have fun with your backwards third world Internet access, mate.

    58. Re:visited to USA recently by PlusFiveTroll · · Score: 1

      Most people are missing something important about about the nature of the outage.

      There are essential two kinds of underground power cabling. Lower voltage to end customer service and High voltage long distance transmission. Low voltage lines are the ones from your house to the 'local' power distribution center. These are generally regulated by the city or a local authority on weather above ground or underground is required. Underground local power distribution is expensive, but doesn't require exotic solutions. A lot of this was destroyed in this storm, but that's not the real issue.

      The big issue is a lot of high voltage transmission lines were destroyed. If these lines are down, it doesn't matter if your local grid is underground or not. Burying these cables is very expensive, 4 to 10 times the cost of above ground lines per equal distance. Also underground high voltage is not as reliable, and there are considerable engineering issues that go along with it. Yes, you'd save yourself storm outages like this, but more general outages would occur.

      Report on underground line costs and technologies.
      http://psc.wi.gov/thelibrary/publications/electric/electric11.pdf

      Virgina report on underground line evaluation.
      http://jlarc.state.va.us/reports/Rpt343.pdf

    59. Re:visited to USA recently by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      It hasn't changed much if any. You generally have to get a cab to go from a NYC-area airport to anywhere, and it's expensive as hell and feels like you might not survive (probably like taking a cab in Turkey). There's some pretty good public transit right (if a bit old) in Manhattan, one of the five "boroughs" or districts of NYC, but outside of that, it sucks.

      The wires you saw were probably DSL or cable (TV/internet) wires retrofitted onto the older buildings. When stuff like that is installed in an older building in this country (where "older" means any age, just that those wires weren't installed during construction, whether it was 100 years ago or 2), installers do the fastest, cheapest job they can, so if that means drilling a big hole in the side of the building and stringing wires haphazardly, that's what they do. It's not just NYC, they do it in suburban houses across the country too.

      However, there's an important reason things are done this way here. Our corporate executives get bigger compensation packages and golden parachutes than anyone else in the world.

    60. Re:visited to USA recently by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      We have island towns as opposed to island cities but they still have to have wires, roads, and pipes feeding them. BTW, they call the Alice a city but it's really just a town.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    61. Re:visited to USA recently by Falconhell · · Score: 1

      Oh really, i dont remember may Australians moving to the US, but I know quite a few Americans who live here. Your'e dreaming mate.

    62. Re:visited to USA recently by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We here in europe call the USA a third world country with a first world army

      That's a pretty poor education you got there if you don't know the difference between NATO, the Warsaw Pact and Unaligned countries.

    63. Re:visited to USA recently by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      No, its not, though it may be a good karma talking point on slashdot. Bankrupt means "is defaulting on debt". We arent doing that, while several countries in Europe are definitely considering it.

    64. Re:visited to USA recently by nelsonal · · Score: 2

      Here's basically my point. Expensive infastructure occurs when there are large areas of moderate density. It's cheap (per person) to deliver services to highly dense areas of people, and there simply aren't enough people to be globally costly in very sparsely populated areas. The use has about half the country's land area that's moderately populated (meaning good services must be delivered to a huge spread of land). Europe is mostly densely populated, while Australia has only a small swath of moderate to dense population:

      http://keep3.sjfc.edu/students/jmm02377/e-port/populatilon-density%20australia.gif
      The vast majority of the population lives 100 miles or less inland on the South Eastern coast (there are other places, but very little of the population lives far from the coast even in those other places). And while there are isolated towns like Alice Springs, the are quite few and far between by American Standards.

      In the US, moderately dense infastructure must basically cover the entire Eastern half of the country.
      http://www.census.gov/dmd/www/pdf/512popdn.pdf

      This is much more costly. Yes, it would be cheaper to not have made policies that caused all the wealthy people to leave the cities, for lower density housing all around them, but those decisions were mostly made generations before now (with the results of those decisions forcing future ones).

      --
      Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
    65. Re:visited to USA recently by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why, exactly, is the US a third world country? What specific metrics are you using?

      The US is an enormous country with a widely varying culture. Taking news reports from one place and extrapolating those to the rest of the nation would be as stupid as me saying that all of Europe was a war zone because somebody in the Balkans was shooting at someone else.

    66. Re:visited to USA recently by Paul+Dubuc · · Score: 1

      Australia may be as big as the US, but what about population density? If 90% of it's people live in 10% of the area in one country while 90% are spread out over a much larger percentage in the other, that makes a big difference in what it takes to provide good infrastructure. How many miles of power lines, bridges, highway, sewers, railway is needed per capita in each country?

  13. Dilapidated infrastructure? by bradley13 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Here in Europe, the news reports a very simple reason: a totally dilapidated infrastructure. Most power wires still hanging off of poles, subject to lightning, wind and falling trees. Decades-old transformers and switching stations that fail catastrophically, and sometimes cause cascading failures.

    I haven't lived on the East Coast for decades - any power engineers want to comment on the truth or falsity of these reports?

    --
    Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
    1. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by Albanach · · Score: 4, Interesting

      On moving to the States (East Coast) from Europe I was pretty surprised by the sheer volume of electricity cables strung in the air. For cost reasons it makes sense for the main backbone cables to be on pylons, but new build homes in cities seem to have all manner of cables strung from the nearest pole.

      Not only is this unsightly, but it's a nightmare in a situation like this. Residential areas are full of trees. The lines themselves are exposed to ice accumulation in the winter and winds and lightning at other times. Power lines go down taking out small numbers of homes, but require substantial manpower to repair.

      These lines should have been buried when the homes were built. Doing it retrospectively will, as the OP suggests, cost a fortune.

    2. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by Trepidity · · Score: 1

      There is definitely some maintenance that should be done, so I'd say fairly accurate.

      Above-ground power lines on poles aren't exactly uncommon across the world, though, especially outside of major cities. Much of the UK outside downtowns is wooden poles still. Heck, even in some major cities: large parts of Tokyo are served by power lines hanging off poles.

    3. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by alen · · Score: 4, Insightful

      unlike europe that has gone to war with each other every 50 years or so for the last 1000 years, the US hasn't been bombed. in some cases there has never been a reason to build new infrastructure like in the bombed out post WW2 remains of europe

    4. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by Anne_Nonymous · · Score: 5, Funny

      >> large parts of Tokyo are served by power lines hanging off [flickr.com] poles

      Those aren't functional, they're only there for effect when Godzilla attacks.

    5. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by MatthiasF · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Where in Europe, if I may ask?

      While I was in eastern France, Italy and even Germany, I saw plenty of power lines on poles in rural areas, so I doubt this is an American problem.England, less so, but mostly because I never left London.

      For instance, storms last year brought down a lot of trees in northern France that caused massive power outages as well.

      http://www.wunderground.com/blog/weatherhistorian/comment.html?entrynum=54

      I think this is less a case of "dilapidated infrastructure" and more a case of EURO vs USA put downs. I should point out that I've never seen a news report here in the US blaming European incompetence when a storm knocks out power.

      We have the good sense to blame the storm. A storm in this particular situation was way under-estimated.

    6. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      Not just in Europe.

      Come to think of it: on an almost montly basis I hear news items about millions of people out of power due to fairly common severe weather. Hurricanes, blizzards, tornadoes - that kind of weather. On one hand a natural disaster, on the other hand a rather frequently occuring one, and something that people can (and should) prepare for.

      Virtually all of these news items occur in the US. Power outages in Europe are rare - those lasting longer than a few hours almost unheard of. The almost 30 years that I lived in Netherlands I experienced two or three serious outages, none lasting longer than a couple of hours before power was back on. The last decade in Hong Kong not a single power outage that effected me; the only serious one that I know of was limited to a nearby residential block that within two hours had an emergency power generator stationed there to provide basic power to use the lifts and so.

      Other parts of Asia, which includes many developing countries, don't seem to have those problems. China has problems with power, but that are brown-outs due to power shortage. Power outages due to natural disasters are really rare there, too.

      I think you're totally right when you talk about dilipadated infrastructure. For some reason the US doesn't manage to get a proper power grid going. Many cables are still above ground, even where digging is easy (e.g. Switzerland has lots of above-ground cables because digging in rock is so damn hard), so if a tree falls, it takes down cables with it, and probably one or two poles too. Lightning strikes will be common (and if that doesn't break the power supply, the surge may destroy equipment in homes).

      Another common thing here on /. is talk about having a UPS for your PC. I don't, never had, don't see the need for it. Power is reliably enough. No need for emergency backup, no need for surge protection (other than a surge protected power strip). I have yet to see my PC spontanously turn off due to a sudden power cut. Yet apparently that's on the order of the day in the US.

    7. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by yodleboy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yeah, this above ground stuff is for the birds. I moved from an older neighborhood with above ground utilities to a newer area in the suburbs with buried. It's quite a relief to not have to worry about branches/kites/vehicles hitting power lines and shorting the entire neighborhood. We pretty much assumed any major storm or high winds would lead to an outage. The cable service also ran above ground and for some reason squirrels love to eat the casing. I had internet and tv outages 2 or 3 times due to that one. Aesthetically, it's nice not to have all this crap overhead too.

      I would have thought with the age of most European cities that above ground would be more common, that seems to be the excuse around these parts "well, that's just the way they did it back then. live with it." So if buried power in Europe is so much more common, what's the reason for that? Have power lines always been buried there? Was it done after WW2 since everything had to rebuilt anyway? Or did most countries just say "screw these ugly poles and wires" and eat the expense of burying the lines?

    8. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by Digicrat · · Score: 1

      I suspect inertia has a lot to do with it. The northeast US was probably among the first, if not the first, major region in the world to have a 'modern' electric distribution system. As a result, there is likely a strong sense of the power lines have always been on utility poles, so they always should be.

      Newer phone/cable/fios lines are buried because the public doesn't want more lines on poles, those companies want to ensure lower operating costs/higher-reliability, and, most importantly, I'm sure that burying low-voltage phone and fiber optic cables is a LOT safer, and therefore cheaper, than attempting to do the same for existing high-voltage power transmission lines which would have to be buried even deeper. If somebody accidentally cuts a fiber, some people lose service. If the same happens to a buried power line, somebody gets electrocuted.

    9. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      Doing it retrospectively will, as the OP suggests, cost a fortune.

      I figured it would cost $8/mo for an average ratepayer to bury all the lines in New Hampshire.

      Strictly back of the envelope calculation, but the power company claims it would cost 10x that much.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    10. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oddly enough, I do not might the sight of overhead cables in The United States of America and its territories. One day I visited my friend in her new neighborhood that had underground cables. I was like: "Where are the telephone poles?" My friend looked at me funny.

      I remember reading somewhere that overhead lines and utility poles are easier to repair than underground wires and cables.

    11. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by tmosley · · Score: 0

      We make twice as much as you because we apply the utility function to such things.

      Is the extra 0.01% uptime over the lifetime of the grid worth paying twice as much? Clearly not. But some Eurocrat thought it was, and forced it on you, and as a result, you take less money home, and are poorer.

    12. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by chthon · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I am from Belgium, and I think that the move to burying lines underground started here in the 70's for new developments.

      When we moved in '78, we were connected to a grid underground, but the other end of the street, which was much older wasn't.

      There is still cleaning up being done. In 2006 we moved to a new house in an old street, and for the new development, one quarter of the street electricity was buried underground, but only this year the last remains of utility poles have been replaced by underground connections. This is, however, in a small village. In our previous house, in a more populated area, the electricity was already long underground.

      Such works are mostly done when the sidewalks need to be replaced e.g., or when the sewage system needs an overhaul.

    13. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by Albanach · · Score: 4, Informative

      as a result, you take less money home, and are poorer.

      and have more vacation, live longer and are happier.

    14. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      It is sort of interesting to consider that without any wars looming on the horizon in Europe, in about 50 years, they will be wondering why their infrastructure is so shitty. Here's the reason: no one has bombed your eventually shitty infrastructure and made it so you *had* to build a new one. That's also why cell phone coverage is ubiquitous overseas: the US land line phone system is old, but works very well for voice calls, but foreign POTS systems were either bombed out, non-existent, or they just plain suck. There was never a need in the US for cell phone coverage for the original reason of being able to talk to other people, so we never invested in cell coverage and only slowly picked up on other uses like SMS and data plans.

      Although I have never been in favor of the shocking loss of life and damage to property that a war brings, there is nothing like it to ensure that old things get replaced by new things, via total destruction. It's pretty much why Europe had the ability and technology to eventually colonize a large part of the rest of the world.

    15. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by mrsquid0 · · Score: 1

      I am not a power engineer, but I do live near DC, and it is true, the infrastructure is awful. We regularly lose power even in good weather. I have lived in several countries around the world and I have never seen the power infrastructure in such bad shape as it is in the suburbs of DC. The only place that came close was northern Indiana. There are various reasons for this, but the main one is that no-one wants to pay the costs associated with updating the grid and burying the power lines, and there is no mechanism to require that the utility companies plough their profits back into upgrading their facilities.

      --
      Just because you are paranoid does not mean that no-one is out to get you.
    16. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by tmosley · · Score: 0

      Ask the Greeks how that is working out for them. Note that all of Europe, perhaps absent Germany and the Nordic countries, is on the same track.

      There is a big difference between FEELING wealthy due to spending borrowed money and BEING wealthy due to production and hard work.

      Ask yourself how much higher your quality of life would be if you had above ground wires, and as a result had 5% lower tax rates and lower utility rates. That is holding all other variables constant. How often do you get windstorms in Europe? Do you really think you would lose a significant amount of uptime?

    17. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Care to explain then why the infrastructure in Sweden, which has not been in a war in about 100 years now and indeed has never been bombed, is top notch?

    18. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by Zencyde · · Score: 2

      Squirrels like the casing because they make it using peanut oil, I've heard. Might be worth looking it up, though. ;)

      --
      What day is it? Could you please tell me?
    19. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by mlts · · Score: 1

      I know Texas is a laughingstock, but from what I have experienced, the power grid here has been pretty reliable. There have not been any major blackouts other than one caused by a transformer oil fire about a decade ago, and the grid did remain up for the most part. The biggest danger here are ice storms. However, those are few and far between, especially with the warmer and drier climate.

      The ironic thing is that most Texans also tend to have portable generators, so if power does go out, the generator gets dragged out of the garage, fired up [1], plugged into the transfer switch receptacle [2], and life goes on.

      [1]: This is if one remembers to keep the fuel fresh and fire up the generator every few weeks. Otherwise, the carb bowl will be full of varnish and the jet will be clogged.

      [2]: People can go to prison for criminal negligence if they use a suicide cord to plug their generator in (which backfeeds and can kill a lineman), so generally an automatic transfer switch plus a receptacle for the generator's cord gets installed.

    20. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by nelsonal · · Score: 1

      The climates of the US and Europe are similar, but Europe is much more mild than the US. Using a pair of large inland cities on a similar latitude, Paris can expect 10-15 light snow days each winter (light enough that I couldn't find any measure of seasonal averages). Chicago averages over a meter. Europe doesn't get hurricanes and the US is basically the only place in the world that powerful tornados occur regularly. A storm like this occurs almost every year in most of the US. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2095509/Snow-Rome-1st-time-26-YEARS-36c-temperatures-eastern-Europe.html

      --
      Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
    21. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by Trepidity · · Score: 3, Informative

      Sweden just didn't really have a lot of modern infrastructure until post-WW2, especially outside Stockholm. The first metro system in the country opened in 1950, for example. The road system was so undeveloped as late as the 1960s that they were able to change from left-hand to right-hand driving in 1967 without a lot of expense (it would've been a lot worse if they had motorways whose on/off-ramps had to be replaced). The national power grid was only completed in the 1940s. And so on.

    22. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And trees never get ripped out of the ground, pulling up wires. The states are no where nearly as densly populated as we are. The costs of burying that shit would be tremendous. Almost all of their new plots have buried utilities,, but until you get on a motorcycle and drive, you have no idea how huge the states are.

    23. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It has nothing to do with dilapidated infrastructure. It has to do with the area being serviced. The Netherlands is very small and highly urbanized, unlike most of the US with the exception of the small states on the US' east coast. Australia and Canada have the same issues outside of their urban cores.

      BTW, burying power lines isn't a total solution. The power lines are buried in my neighborhood and I lose power all the time.

    24. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by Jaysyn · · Score: 4, Informative

      Telecom network designer here. I can't vouch for power companies, but as far as communications lines, it really is that much cheaper to put them up a pole that you already own or a paying a pittance of a lease for then to bury them & have to deal with:

      a.) Design. The poles are already there & in some instance they are maintained by a different company entirely. Locating existing UG utilities is expensive. Some counties in Florida are now requiring GPR readings before they let you place anything. Ground penetrating radar &/ or LiDAR crews are expensive.

      b.) Permits (Railroad, DOT, City, County, & sometimes bridge or Dept of Environmental Protection) And they all want something different on their permits.

      b.) Construction. Most companies contract out boring. Directional boring rigs aren't cheap to run. Conduit is more expensive to place than the metal strand that goes between poles. It's quite literally 4 times more expensive to place UG plant than aerial plant & that is before the before the cost of the above items is taken into consideration.

      Also, you really can't compare Europe to the USA. Europe is tiny & crammed. We are very, very spread out. Case in point, the *city* I live in is just slightly smaller than Luxembourg.

      --
      There is a war going on for your mind.
    25. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not that much of the UK. It's the exception, not the norm.

      Whether they're cool or rubbish, they're definitely more vulnerable to storm damage. Forecasts are only for more energetic weather events, so the upgrade cycle should include line burial.

    26. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by wvmarle · · Score: 2

      Living now in a country where hurricanes (we call them typhoons) are a yearly occurrence, I know that they are no excuse for power outages. Normally typhoons take down some advertising signs, a handful of trees, that's about it. Tornadoes that's indeed something quite unique US, probably because no-where else in the world there are large enough areas of virtually flat land.

      Taiwan some years ago had outages, and villages cut off, but that was due to huge landslides. A typhoon dropped about two meters of rain in a single day on the island, that was really extreme. But even then power outages were limited to remote villages in the mountains.

    27. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From a power engineer, the reason, pure and simple, is cost. Your back of the envelope calc is looking at low voltage to your house replacement, not the cost to bury 345,000 volt lines. Buried high voltage lines cost ~ 10 x as much as buried lines with equivalent power transfer capabilities (buried lines typically will have higher reactance and don't cool as well so may need to be sized larger). Last time I looked, costs for a 345,000 v overhead line were on the order of $1 million/mile, so it's significant cash we're talking about if you want to bury everything.

      My electric bill last month was $110. I'm more than willing to risk a few weeks every five, ten years of no power to avoid that bill shooting up 5x - 10x. I'm confident most would agree with me on this point. And this all boils down to what the user is willing to pay and accept - If the end user will not pay for a product that is 10% better at 5x the cost, then that product won't be made. The same goes for power as a deliverable product.

      Most people can get their utility feed buried if they are willing to pay for it themselves. That's where your $8/month or $4000 upfront comes in. If you're willing to do this, go ahead and talk to your utility. I suspect they would be more than happy to accomodate you. Present this as something YOU have to pay for, and see how many people are willing to invest personally.

    28. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, no reasons at all.

      Also, there are no power outages right now. All working just fine. Right?

    29. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but new build homes in cities seem to have all manner of cables strung from the nearest pole.

      This is a very very rare exception, if it was indeed what you saw. Actual new construction (since the late 80s) has favored 100% underground utilities, and a trip through any city that has a spectrum of old and new homes bears this out. Some redeveloped areas with existing overhead infrastructure might not be buried, since the cost of burying is basically free if you are grading a lot (to do brand-new construction) and gets absurdly expensive if you are rebuilding on an existing lot or heaven forbid, want to bury wires to an existing structure.

    30. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by Dan+East · · Score: 1

      I live in the Appalachian mountain area of Virginia. It is developed here and we have a few towns in our county, but it is still quite rural. You could buy an entire European nation for what it would cost to bury all the power lines in this region of the USA. When digging a hole for a post, if they hit bedrock or a large boulder, they can scoot over 10 or 15 feet and try again. If that doesn't work they can bring in more equipment and drill into the rock, and use some explosives if necessary. It would require orders of magnitude more time, expense, equipment, etc, to actually dig a continuous ditch. Really, it would be a project of epic proportions, easily rivaling the construction of the interstate system. We're not talking about a handful of linear roads here, but 2D grids covering a significant area of the country.

      --
      Better known as 318230.
    31. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by jeffmeden · · Score: 1

      Excellent points, no one seems to want to consider all the details they just want to cast blame or make stereotypes.

      The average U.S. customer loses power for 214 minutes per year. That compares to 70 in the United Kingdom, 53 in France, 29 in the Netherlands, 6 in Japan, and 2 minutes per year in Singapore. (source, Natl Academy of Science)

      Electricity costs in the UK are about 2x what they are in the US, and in the Netherlands they are almost 3x. What is that extra 3 hours of electricity worth, compared to what you paid for the other 8757 hours the rest of the year?

    32. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by nelsonal · · Score: 1

      I agree, though our state most impacted by tropical cyclones does have better infastructure than the rest of the Union. But many Europeans seem to imagine US weather as being very similar to European weather (and then when they get the rare storm that's on par with US weather experience issues as well). I know I was very surprised to find that snow and bitterly cold weather (as well as hot weather and large thunder storms) were much less common in most European cities even though I knew that the Gulf stream moderated things quite a bit there. I had just imagined they had similar weather to the US.

      --
      Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
    33. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by Rockoon · · Score: 0

      Its because Europeans consume heaping helpings of American entertainment, which puts them in a situation where subconsciously they have to constantly remind themselves of all the things that are better in Europe than in America.. which are sometimes just exaggerations or formed from cherry picking.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    34. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      The only time I had a house with above ground powerlines in Germany was when I lived in a literal one-horse town at the arse end of nowhere. Well, at least, each year I knew when the wheat harvesting season began, because, predictably, the farmer across the street would sever the powerline with his damn combine harvester, then they would string it up again at the same bloody height two days later. Until next year. Anyway, in urban environments, cables get buried. Everything else is nuts.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    35. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 2

      And yet, here in Germany, we bury our powerlines, I have 30 days paid vacation, a bunch of public holiday, as many sick days as the doc says I need, not only perceived wealth, public transport so decent that I actually sold my car, and so on, and so on.

      Regarding windstorms, we get a lot. Last weekend's thunderstorms took out several rail lines for hours and killed a couple of people by lighting strike and falling trees. Not unusual for the summer. In the late autumn, the low pressure zones from the Atlantic will start to drift in, bringing quite severe storms with them. I'd expect significant outage if we'd use more above ground cables.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    36. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 3, Informative

      Dude, your infrastructure is not shitty because you do not get bombed, it sucks arse because no one gives a flying fuck about it, at long as the profit next quarter is good.

      Despite not being bombed, we quite constantly upgraded our infrastructure during the last 60 years.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    37. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by cffrost · · Score: 1

      Yeah, this above ground stuff is for the birds.

      Although the birds do enjoy chillaxing on suspended utility lines, that wasn't a primary consideration in pursuing their installation. :o)

      --
      Thank you, Edward Snowden.

      "Arguments from authority are worthless." —Carl Sagan
    38. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by tmosley · · Score: 1

      As I said, Germany is an exception, as they actually work there, and more importantly save and accumulate capital. But even with that, you will suffer due to your politician's bad choices. You will wish that you had the money you would have saved on those cables in a few months when the Euro breaks up and the Deutchmark is valued 20:1 (or 2000:1 for that matter) against the other European currencies, and you can't export anything, causing a rapid rise in unemployment. If you had saved that money, you could have bought up those other countries and retired. You still might, but it will be to a lesser extent than it would have been otherwise.

    39. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      The monetary side of the EU, which I agree is hellishly mismanaged at the moment, has not too much to do with burying our cables, no?

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    40. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by bazorg · · Score: 1

      Actually, if you head away from Central London and look in areas where detached and semi-detached houses are more abundant, you'll find plenty of power cables leading to homes. These are houses that are 100 years old (or more) with outside plumbing visible from the back as the houses were not all originally built with plumbing connecting to the public sewers. I'm talking about London TFL zones 2 and 3, not some remote and scarcely populated suburb.

    41. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by tmosley · · Score: 1

      Money touches everything. Abuse of money can make a nation feel rich, and encourage it to spend more than it has. You get lots of jobs, and everyone is happy, until theveil is pulled back, the currency falls apart, everyone finds out that it was all an illusion, and that now they are really and desperately poor, having spent all their money and more on things like burying cables, and more importantly, all manner of goodies which were nothing more than bribes to the people. If you were talking about the US, you would also include the ghastly amount we spend on our worldwide oppression machin--I mean spreading democracy. The US is in the same boat, with Texas being the Germany and Norway (combined, as we export oil) of the US. If we don't find some way to extricate ourselves, we will go down with the ship, I fear.

    42. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by jrmcferren · · Score: 1

      The transformers and switching stations are a problem, the overhead wires are not. Where I live the infrastructure is new and reliable as well as overhead. The last outage of significant duration at my house was when the utility upgraded tr infrastructure. The power does for a few seconds every now and again, but that's what UPSes are for.

      --
      sudo mod me up
    43. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Ask the Greeks how that is working out for them. Note that all of Europe, perhaps absent Germany and the Nordic countries, is on the same track.

      There is a big difference between FEELING wealthy due to spending borrowed money and BEING wealthy due to production and hard work.

      Dunno about Germany, but the Nordic countries put a huge emphasis on welfare, rather than "hard work". Of course welfare translates to healthy, educated and ambitious population that's happy to pay its taxes, which in turn translates to prosperity. So I guess the lesson is that a society that invests in itself, or where everyone is blowing to a single coal, is a succesful society, which really shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, seeing how it's true for all other entities.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    44. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      In the country I live in, Denmark, pretty much all of the electricity grid is buried by now. 'pretty much all' means 99%+ except for the huge 400KV triple phase long distance transmission lines. I am going for 99%, as I am sure there must be *some* pieces of low voltage lines left up in the air *somewhere*. Don't recall the last time I saw any though...

      Denmark is tree country, and we the Danes have a habit of helping nature here. Additionally we have recurring autumn storms, which regularly levels large areas of forests etc. In the mid-eighties the situation with the growing electricity grid, combined with all the trees, was deemed unsustainable. So a decision was made to gradually bury the whole grid, handling individual sections once they came up for general maintenance. The whole project was estimated to take roughly 25 years, and was funded though a tiny additional tax added to the price of electricity.

      We have been done for a few years by now, and as mentioned pretty much only the 400KV lines are left. These will need to be converted to HVDC lines if buried due to the atrocious capacitive losses encountered if you bury 400KV AC lines. So far the HT lines have proven extremely reliable, so burying them is not seen as a priority.

      So basically we started burying AC mains lines in one corner of the country, and didn't stop until we reached the other. WW-II has nothing to do with it, as Denmark only took very limited and localized damage during the war.

      As a rule of thumb air lines in the cities had a higher priority for being buried, as outages had the potential to affect a very large number of people. Also this avoided issues due to building and renovation activities, which no longer had to fight the mains wires now snugly buried in the street below.

    45. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not the OP, yet here in Denmark we pretty much only have the 400KVAC long distance transmission lines left up in the air (due to high capacitive losses if they were buried).

      All the rest, 99%+, was buried over a time span of roughly 25 years, starting in the eighties.

      Seeing low voltage mains wires up on poles in the air is now really, really rare in this country. Don't remember when I last saw any, though I suspect there must be a few pieces left here or there...

    46. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by Sedated2000 · · Score: 1

      I think you hit on it already. WW2 is a big factor as to why Europe has a different infrastructure. In the US it was never destroyed so completely like much of Europe's. They had a chance to rebuild with more modern techniques (the cities were never originally laid out with power in mind, or roads as large as are common).

      More modern areas in the US do get to benefit, like my neighborhood. Everything is buried for me. In the hurricane last year, every other neighborhood nearby that had overhead lines, was without power.

    47. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Denmark where I live, new powerlines are always put underground. Most power companies are putting the wires underground when the old wooden poles are due to be replaced. The reason they give is that it costs less money to maintain in the long run.
      In the cities it is still a mix of both. But old areas seems to have underground wires now. I believe at they were moved underground at a time when they also needed to be replaced or when they were unable to deliver the raising power needs.

      But we also only have very few places with rock surface so it's easier to dig trenches in dirt than rock. :)

    48. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also, we have a lot of regulation. City councils just forbid the poles because they are ugly. They block and regulate a lot more here. Once there is a rule, it's not anymore about what is cheaper, just about what is allowed.

    49. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The owners of old buildings will sometimes pay for power lines to be buried, for security or aesthetic reasons. On historic buildings, sometimes local government will insist they be buried for aesthetic reasons.

      But the really big difference between Europe and the US is for new buildings. In Europe, anyone planning a new building simply assumes the lines will be buried, and factors that into their costs up-front. In the US, it's still considered optional, so builders will use the solution that allows them to quote the lowest price - overhead lines.

    50. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Arizona gets a lot of shit too, but the power grid here is even more reliable, since the only "storms" we get are dust storms and rare thunderstorms with high winds. We never get ice storms, hurricanes, tornadoes (except for "dust devils" that you can walk through if you want), etc.

      But we don't have any portable generators either.

    51. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by Falconhell · · Score: 1

      It works well for us in Australia, we have the strongest economy in the world currently, due to our strong banking regulations preventing the need for the massive bailouts the US needed.

    52. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by TrimTabTim · · Score: 1

      I'm an expat US citizen living in North Germany and every time I return to the states, the ugly power lines shock me. I've stopped visiting family - they mostly visit me - because last time I was in the US I felt suicidal with depression about how stupid everything was getting. I'm a patriot, which makes it hurt even more when I see dumb things like power lines in the air, crumbling sidewalks, eat-in-your-car culture, and uninsured families.

      Here in Germany, the major cities have no power lines in the air. It's a ridiculous idea to the locals and those who have visited the US always comment on the ugly cables on poles in the US spoiling otherwise beautiful locations. Aside from being ass-ugly, suspended lines are HUGELY expensive and dangerous if you are planning for a future which is longer than 10 years. Europeans are long planners. And every 4 or 5 years we get crazy ice storms which coat trees in an inch of ice, but power outages are very (very) rare. It costs a bit more upfront to dig a trench, but it's essentially a 1 time cost. Service work is also safer - jump in a hole instead of hanging from a basket. I spend a lot of time in Hamburg and these guys are real pros at digging a ditch to expose a power line - putting a tent over it to work, and 24h later - filling the hole and re-setting the old pavement stones so you can't tell anything happened.

      Oh and they never pour cement for sidewalks. It's far cheaper, creates less rain water run-off and is more beautiful to use pavers on compacted sand, but again you need to think of the lifetime cost of your sidewalks, and not the initial outlay.

      In the countryside, there are a higher percentage of suspended power lines, but I live in a small village with a big garden, and I promise you they are aggressively burring everything as fast as they can. Lines in my neighborhood have always been underground but for the cables between towns, in my region last year they just replaced hundreds of miles of suspended cables with buried cables, and laid new fibers for even better broadband at the same time. Later in the year they'll be lighting up 100mbit service options to my little village! :D Previously this was only cheap for city dwellers.

    53. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I feel like circumstances like this really reveal that Europeans seem to have no idea about just how much bigger the U.S. is and more spread out its people are once you get out of the large urban areas.

    54. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by StoneyMahoney · · Score: 1

      In 1987, the UK was caught out pretty much like the US was - a hurricane was predicted to go somewhere else, instead it hit us in the middle of the night. I was only a wee lad at the time, but I distinctly recall the power being out to the house for a period of days. I guess we had pretty much the same dilemma the US does now - buried cables are too expensive to fit retrospectively, so while all houses are built with buried utilities these days, older houses still have cables on poles running down the street.

    55. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Every other developed country I've lived in has the majority of their lines covered. I really don't understand why the US doesn't do it AT LEAST in high density areas.

    56. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, this above ground stuff is for the birds.

      Funny.

    57. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      You don't have cascade failures in France that take out Greece. But in the US, NY takes out MI, or vice versa.

    58. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by swalve · · Score: 1

      It's hard bury cables in rock, and that's what the East coast is built on.

    59. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I still think they need a good bombing to help things along...

    60. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We mean everybody in Europe but Germany. it is not fair, you guys are simply bad asses.

    61. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I should point out that I've never seen a news report here in the US blaming European incompetence when a storm knocks out power.

      We have the good sense to blame the storm. A storm in this particular situation was way under-estimated.

      A storm in Europe would not be news here in the US. News in the US only talks about foreign people when they have some connection to a US citizen. I had assumed most of the world worked this way, and I am surprised than anyone in Europe would care about a wind storm in the US.

    62. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by gottabeme · · Score: 1

      I looked at your page. That's interesting, but I noticed this:

      "Let’s assume each ratepayer (home, business) paid for his own underground service to the next ratepayer (so, you pay for the line from your house to your next door neighbor’s)."

      As far as I know, I've never lived in a home which was connected to the grid through my neighbor's house, and his to the next, etc. That could lead to some awful cascade failures if some guy up the street decided to do some digging in his back yard.

      --
      "Those who consume the bulk of goods are those who make them. We must never forget this secret of our prosperity."
    63. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by gottabeme · · Score: 1

      I'm not saying one nation is better than the other--that's entirely subjective. But there are some points on which Germany loses, such as freedom of speech. It's hard to put a price on freedom, but some recognize it to be human lives.

      --
      "Those who consume the bulk of goods are those who make them. We must never forget this secret of our prosperity."
    64. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by gottabeme · · Score: 1

      most Texans also tend to have portable generators

      What?

      --
      "Those who consume the bulk of goods are those who make them. We must never forget this secret of our prosperity."
    65. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      Very well - in Germany, you definitely don't have the freedom of speech that allows you to spew Nazi propaganda (that is a generic you, not directed at you personally, just to avoid misconceptions). I can live with that. Then again, in the US you can get shut down as an artist by - to my perception - weird arse obscenity regulations. Or you could at some point, not sure how relevant this is today. Every community sets their standards - I don't think we want to globalize this.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    66. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      perhaps it's not worded as clearly as possible. The line along the road between your service drop and your neighbor's service drop.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    67. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by gottabeme · · Score: 1

      That is a good point. Who's to say what freedom of speech is? Of course, the definition of speech in the USA may not be universally agreed upon, since the SCOTUS ruled that, basically, money is speech. Also, some obscenity laws vary by state rather than being federal, which is a good thing.

      I certainly am completely against any Nazi ideology. However, it's dangerous to say that one view is banned while another is not. In some countries, that idea is used to suppress what we would call freedom. Just look at China or Iran, or even some Southeast Asian countries.

      I think this saying is wise: "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend your right to say it." It's just as easy to suppress truth as it is to suppress evil using the same principles or laws.

      By the way, what is "arse obscenity"?

      --
      "Those who consume the bulk of goods are those who make them. We must never forget this secret of our prosperity."
    68. Re:Dilapidated infrastructure? by Meski · · Score: 1

      Yes, but if you progressively undergrounded utilities, you would have less and less wire down repairs to do in the future. It's not that overhead wiring is necessarily dilapidated, more that it is prone to this kind of accident.

  14. Put Solar on the roof by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Half a dozen solar panels on the roof and a good inverter mounted will mean that you can power essentials (fridge, freezer, lights, etc) even when you're not on the grid.

    Sure, it won't help if the storm cracks your panels or it stays really cloudy, but clouds often leave as quickly as they arrive and unless they're really thick, solar can work even when it is cloudy (just like you can get sun burnt when it is cloudy.)

    Being green with respect to electricity has other advantages when it comes to your power supply aside from being green and seeing the monthly electricity bill drop.

    1. Re:Put Solar on the roof by bigwheel · · Score: 1

      Only if off-grid with a local battery bank. Inverters are required to shut down when grid power fails.

    2. Re:Put Solar on the roof by An+Ominous+Coward · · Score: 1

      If you're putting energy back on the grid (net metering, etc.) you can also have a smart disconnect so that your local generation disconnects from the lines on which technicians will be working.

  15. Follow FPL's lead by trout007 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    In Florida since we get nasty storms all of the time the power companies have full time crews that trim trees near power lines. They are going to have to do it anyway when a storm comes and it's easier to do it when the weather is nice for 3/4 of the year than when the storms come in the heat and humidity of the summer. All you have to do is call them up to take a look at a tree near their lines and they will take a look and trim it if needed.

    The rest of the country might not get this weather often enough to spend the time to maintain the trees so when a freak storm comes by you not only have had lots of tree growth but it's growth that hasn't been subjected to high winds.

    http://www.fpl.com/residential/trees/index.shtml

    --
    I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
    1. Re:Follow FPL's lead by muridae · · Score: 2

      Trimming sick trees works great. Except for those times when even healthy trees are knocked sideways. Or when the top of every tree is sheered off at the same height, and those pieces go flying.

    2. Re:Follow FPL's lead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Our company in Michigan does this too. Of course we are also trying to have lots of trees in our city, so that makesit a trick to balance the two objectives. With budget cuts they have had to cut back on some trimming,but at least in the city, the city picks up a portion too.

      Of course Florida was one of the pioneers in doing maintenance up front rather than just waiting for cleanup. Many power companies haven't got the memo yet.

    3. Re:Follow FPL's lead by sycodon · · Score: 2

      In Austin, the local Greens have filed suit and held protests time and time again against tree trimming. They can't abide looking a a nice green canopy interrupted by corridors of cut away branches populated by various utility lines.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    4. Re:Follow FPL's lead by trout007 · · Score: 1

      That doesn't happen too often in Florida because every tree sees strong winds every year. 50+ mph thunderstorms are typical a couple times a summer. So if a limb on a tree is weak it will break before it can get too big.

      --
      I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
    5. Re:Follow FPL's lead by Inda · · Score: 1

      Even trimming healthy trees makes them grow stronger.

      People moan in my street when all the trees are topped at 3m. They grow back each and every year. If they weren't cut, they'd be 10m tall by now, damaging foundations and the like.

      --
      This post contains benzene, nitrosamines, formaldehyde and hydrogen cyanide.
    6. Re:Follow FPL's lead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      God forbid we should have any shade in the summer. Though maybe getting us to pay an arm and a leg for power for AC is the goal.

    7. Re:Follow FPL's lead by afidel · · Score: 1

      That's done almost everywhere, Davey Tree Experts, Bartlett Tree Experts, and their competitors do this for most utilities. The thing is this storm produced 90-100 MPH straight line winds which aren't normally seen over such a large area outside of hurricanes.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    8. Re:Follow FPL's lead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dominion VA power trims the trees in my neighborhood on a regular basis. That helps prevent a limb falling and taking out a line. When happened in this storm are 50-100 year old oak, maple and poplar trees, some as tall as 100', falling from the winds. The last time I can remember this much damage in the area is when we were hit with Isabel? almost 9 years ago. You can't trim your way out of damage like this unless you put a 100' exclusion zone around all power lines. Or, make sure no tree grows higher than 10' or so.

    9. Re:Follow FPL's lead by muridae · · Score: 1

      You thought I meant someone cutting the trees to an even height? No, the storm did that here, pretty efficiently.

    10. Re:Follow FPL's lead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If they're just cutting a tunnel through the trees for the wire they aren't doing it right and need to learn from Tallahassee. Tallahassee has large oak trees everywhere and keeps the line clear just fine without doing a hack job on the trees. To do it they pay attention to the characteristics of the trees (expected deflection of branches, etc.) and cut accordingly.

    11. Re:Follow FPL's lead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude. We live in the most hurricane prone part of the U.S. Of course we're going to have more regulation related to trees and power lines and what not. For us, this kind of storm is a yearly event (sometimes multiple times a year). For other parts of the country, this is like a hundred year storm. The cost/benefit just can't be compared.

  16. Frequency is troubling by Skater · · Score: 5, Insightful

    As someone who was without power from Friday night to yesterday afternoon in Maryland (served by BG&E), I get that this was bad storm and outages are probably inevitable. My problem is: Why are there so many of these outages?

    I moved to my current residence in 2006 and there have been at least 4 outages lasting longer than 24 hours. I think I'm missing one in that count, but I didn't want to put it down without remembering it better. But we've had one of these 24+ hour outages each of the last three years.

    When I step outside during an outage, I'm greeted with the sound of generators all around me (including my own, but it's quiet enough that I hear several others over it). Why do we all have generators? Because we need them so frequently! I bet if I did a poll, half the neighbors would either have a generator or have power from someone that does. And a good portion of the rest probably have friends or family far enough that they might have power, but near enough to make staying at their place feasible.

    Meanwhile...my water works fine. My natural gas service works fine - we were able to take hot showers throughout the outage. My FiOS worked fine after I hooked it to the generator. All of those things have one thing in common: the lines are buried. It's sad that my internet service is more reliable than my electricity. If it's so expensive to bury wires, how come Verizon just did it a couple years ago when they installed FiOS?

    BG&E did a "reliability improvement plan" in our city a year or two ago, moving some main wires underground. It seems to have cut down on the shorter power outages, but no such luck for the longer outages. We're tired of it. My wife and I are going to write BG&E a nice letter that basically asks "WTF?" I plan to CC the city council and local papers as well.

    1. Re:Frequency is troubling by cpu6502 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Buried lines isn't an automatic solution. I lost DSL/phone after a major rainstorm flooded the underground pipes. The power stayed on because it was above the water.

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    2. Re:Frequency is troubling by muridae · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The breaks in water mains, the boil water notices, and the sewage treatment plant leaking waste into rivers suggests that even underground utilities were effected in this storm.

    3. Re:Frequency is troubling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have been in the same house for 7 years now in MD with BG&E. I have lost power for a max of 3 hours last year when a transformer went up the street. This is the first time I lost power for any length of time.

      Look at Verizon FIOS in Virgina they have to redo a lot of their crap to get customers on. I have a buddy who had power the whole time, but no internet, phone, cable, or cell phone coverage.

    4. Re:Frequency is troubling by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      Power lines are not in pipes, and if they are, they can stand being submerged. The power lines that I've seen being buried (or dug up for maintenance) usually just have thick layers of insulation and no extra pipe (i.e. air) around them. They go straight in the ground, straight into contact wiht the moist soil. And I wouldn't be surprised if quite some of those lines are below ground water level.

      It's quite worrying that your phone/DSL provider didn't either make sure the pipes are absolutely sealed off and can't flood, or that the equipment is waterproof. After all you're working underground, so water IS an issue.

    5. Re:Frequency is troubling by Skater · · Score: 1

      The breaks in water mains, the boil water notices, and the sewage treatment plant leaking waste into rivers suggests that even underground utilities were effected in this storm.

      I get that, but I think you missed my main point - I'm not talking about just this storm. I'm talking about the fact that we've lost power in several storms over the past few years. How often did the water main breaks and other problems happen in those other storms?

    6. Re:Frequency is troubling by Skater · · Score: 1

      Buried lines isn't an automatic solution. I lost DSL/phone after a major rainstorm flooded the underground pipes. The power stayed on because it was above the water.

      I didn't say it was. I get that there will always be problems. But how many times has that happened, compared to how many times you've lost power? In our case the underground utilities have had 100% uptime for over 6 years, while the electricity hasn't.

    7. Re:Frequency is troubling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Frequency?! You've have 4 significant power outages in six years? And you're bitching?

      In Florida, if electricity doesn't have a significant failure or FiOS doesn't go out for a day, at least once a year, It's like there has been a great disturbance in the force. People start crying spontaneously and staggering around in a daze, pleading to know what is wrong. It's really unnerving.

    8. Re:Frequency is troubling by MatthiasF · · Score: 1

      I live in Maryland as well, and can attest to having three periods without power for more than 12 hours but only one for more than 24 hours (after Hurricane Irene), but I think you need to put things into perspective.

      Hurricane Irene took down a ton of trees and probably damaged a significant number of others, which in turn recently got knocked down as well by the durecho.

      So, I don't think this is a case of BGE or burying lines, but just a confluence of the age of the trees in most of the suburban areas (which were all built 50-60 years ago, meaning the trees are probably that old as well) with two strong storms sweeping through to knock them down.

      We will probably have one more major storm come through and knock down the remaining trees/branches that were damaged, and then a decade or more of barely any power outages since all the damaged/aged trees have been removed or pruned by either storms or humans over-reacting to the storm damage.

    9. Re:Frequency is troubling by MichaelJ · · Score: 1

      What? Where you do live that power lines are not strung through conduit when laid underground???

      --

      Michael J.
      Root, God, what is difference?
    10. Re:Frequency is troubling by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      Move to Virginia. I've lived here for 12 years and never had an outage last more than maybe a few hours. Usually the power flickers once or twice and that's about it. Our power lines to the community are underground, but I'm pretty sure that they are up on a pole just outside it.

      Maryland power companies suck balls, even in situations with storm warnings. I'm not saying I love Dominion, but they at least keep my shit on.

    11. Re:Frequency is troubling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      German perspective for comparison here. Can hardly remember the last time we had an unplanned outage in my town (and the last planned outage is already a few years ago. I think they moved some cabling underground) . The worst thing you get is power fluctuations during heavy thunderstorms and while I wouldn't want to keep sensitive stuff running during those times it usually doesn't even trip up a computer (though I does happen). Pretty much all of the cabling here is underground (mine isn't but that's a special case).

      Hardly anyone I know owns a generator and those that do have it because they want to use powertools in the woods or something ;-)

    12. Re:Frequency is troubling by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      So, what you're saying is that you have just shy of .999 reliability. That sounds pretty dang good to me.

    13. Re:Frequency is troubling by Skater · · Score: 1

      We will probably have one more major storm come through and knock down the remaining trees/branches that were damaged, and then a decade or more of barely any power outages since all the damaged/aged trees have been removed or pruned by either storms or humans over-reacting to the storm damage.

      This is what the reliability plan in our city was supposed to do. It doesn't seem to be working very well, but they claimed success.

    14. Re:Frequency is troubling by muridae · · Score: 1

      Here? Every major disaster seems to damage the water supply somewhere. One county or another will have to boil water after a hurricane swings inland, or an icestorm or wind knocks over trees or anything else. Maybe there is just something wrong with the water pipes in SW VA, but the fact that it happens every year is an arguement against putting the power lines there as well.

    15. Re:Frequency is troubling by asylumx · · Score: 1

      How often do they have to happen before the cost of maintenance is prohibitive? According to other comments, it costs 10x more just to install underground. Add to that any landscaping or construction that is put over the top of it afterward (driveways? gardens? etc) and now not only will you have to pay to dig it up, but you've got to replace everything you've destroyed to get down to it. On top of the dollar cost, it also takes a lot longer to locate a breach with buried utilities. When I have a guy come look at my buried sewer system, I have to pay him hundreds of dollars to use a camera that looks like a colonoscope and find the breach in my sewer line before he can even decide if it needs to be dug up or not.

      Buried lines are not the magic bullet you seem to think they are, and there is plenty of analysis that should be done before deciding to completely change the way we do things.

    16. Re:Frequency is troubling by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Power is sealed, but that's besides the point in that it would happen a lot less.
      You're phone company has done something very wrong for that to happen, or you really don't understand what happened.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    17. Re:Frequency is troubling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's because the water treatment plants lost power.

    18. Re:Frequency is troubling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem you have is you're in Maryland. It's a fucking shit hole. It's not as bad as NJ or Texas, but it's still a hole. At least for the most part.

    19. Re:Frequency is troubling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course the wires underground need to be replaced on a periodic basis and the expense is astronomical compared to overhead wire maintenance.

      Have had buried wires for the last 40 years in 2 states and experienced blackouts due to deteriorated wires in both. Ditto for cable and phone. And water pipes have burst losing a complete water tower full of water (oh the expense).

      You get what you pay for and most of us aren't willing to pay for anything but the cheapest. Now ask that other country what they pay (please include govt subsidy).

    20. Re:Frequency is troubling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I lived in Virginia and had to buy a UPS because random power outages constantly shut down my computer. These happened all the time in the middle of a very sunny day. Sure, they only lasted like a minute or two, but christ why does that happen!?

      I now live in Buffalo. The lines are above ground. The wind blows here at at least 5 mph, usually 10-15 mph on any given day with huge gusts. In VA, there isn't even a slight breeze unless a storm is coming. Buffalo also gets huge amounts of snow and yet the only time I've heard of a mass outage was during a huuuuuge blizzard that also occurred in Fall when trees were not prepared. I still think people stated it only lasted a few days, maybe a week. I lost power for over a week during hurricane Katrina and many others lost power for over 2 weeks. It's ridiculous! I used to see transformers blow all the time as well. You just don't see that in Buffalo.

      I really can't tell you what the cause is. Apparently it's not the lines needing to be buried. There is some fundamental difference in the way things are done between Dominion and National Grid. Maybe they should talk. I can't imagine Dominion enjoys losing money all the time.

    21. Re:Frequency is troubling by mortonda · · Score: 1

      Yeah, stuff happens. Stop whining, people.

    22. Re:Frequency is troubling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where on earth do you live in VA?

      I lived there for 14 years and I had my power go out all the freaking time. I had to buy a UPS for my computer because the power would just go off for a minute in the middle of a sunny day. My parents finally bought a generator because power outages lasted far too long and our food would spoil. Not to mention (again) frequency. Wind more than 1mph? Power outage. Snowed an inch? Power outage. Tropical storm? Power outage. Someone drove into a telephone pole? Power outage. Sunny, no wind, no possiblity for a power outage? Power outage. Tropical depression causing torrential flooding and causing way more damage than any actual hurricane to hit VA? Power on!

    23. Re:Frequency is troubling by gman003 · · Score: 1

      Another VA resident here, to counter *your* anecdotal evidence with *my* anecdotal evidence.

      You remember Hurricane Isabel? Yeah, I was without power for a month after that one. That was *not* fun. At all.

      Or last year, when another hurricane took out power for five days. I think that's about average for me - about every other year, I'll be without power for at least two days after a hurricane. Plus minor thunderstorms knocking out power for a night, probably twice a year or so. And that's not counting the countless times the power has flickered off for a few seconds, which often happens for no identifiable reason.

    24. Re:Frequency is troubling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can't edit comments as anonymous. Oh well. I meant Hurricane Isabel, not Katrina. Sorry about that.

    25. Re:Frequency is troubling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I live in NOVA and have FiOS. Verizon did not buried the cables in my area. Just saying Verizon don't always bury their cables.

    26. Re:Frequency is troubling by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      I'm in Fairfax Co. Our neighborhood was built in 2000-2003 with buried lines. After roughly 65 hours, we just got power back yesterday. In the ten years we've lived in our home, we've had about three outages that lasted a day or longer. Obviously, we're downrange from something that isn't buried.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    27. Re:Frequency is troubling by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      You're lucky then. Mine was down 65+ hrs in Fairfax County, and we have buried lines. It took two days for us to find a hotel room, and good luck finding ice to salvage your food. Take a look at the current Dominion Power map...it was much worse yesterday, and still shows many outages.

      https://www.dom.com/storm-center/northva.jsp

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    28. Re:Frequency is troubling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sometimes in a big storm event, some of the outages are on purpose. Even if the lines aren't broken and look ok in an area, it's the cross-connects to elsewhere in the grid affected by treefall. So until all the lines (yes, all the lines) in a sector are deemed clear, power is cut for public safety and fire prevention. So although it seems you should have power, you're stuck waiting that week until those trucks clear the trees that fell over on some line a mile or two away.

      Other thing is that power line companies tend to go by the bare minimum of staff. Most times they don't have huge storm events, so normally it's not a problem. But once something big finally does go down, the typical manpower available can only go yea far. Thus the amount of guys available on call to fix something like a simple lightning strike or vehicular accident knocking down a pole in a half hour, will take about two and a half weeks when you have over a hundred square miles of random trees falling down. And that's with overtime and extra help being brought in.

    29. Re:Frequency is troubling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      True! If you decide to bury a line around older trees then you will kill the root system and the trees follow shortly thereafter. If you want to bury lines in neighborhoods with trees then bury the lines before the hood is built and before the trees have been planted. It is the only way.

    30. Re:Frequency is troubling by Slashdot+Parent · · Score: 1

      Basically, BG&E and Pepco suck. Move to Virginia if you don't want to live off of generator power for 15+ days/year.

      --
      They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
    31. Re:Frequency is troubling by tibit · · Score: 1

      There's this thing called direct burial cable. I've seen plenty of utility power strung with only a concrete "stop now" piece about a foot above the cable. Yes, there was a concrete upside-down trough running a foot above the cable, so that when digging you'd hit it first and perhaps think about the trouble you'll be in if you continue.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    32. Re:Frequency is troubling by tibit · · Score: 1

      Interesting. I'm in the Mountain Lake Hotel right now (they filmed Dirty Dancing there, and on another location in N.C.), and the hotel and surrounding area is all running on generators.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    33. Re:Frequency is troubling by Falconhell · · Score: 1

      For many years underground phone lines here were pressurized with air, so moisture could not enter the cables. Simple really, but not the sort of thing a profit driven private company does.

    34. Re:Frequency is troubling by udoschuermann · · Score: 1

      No, they're not magic bullets, but it ought to be possible to install on the buried lines RF sensors (or something comparable) that can be triggered from above ground (with a strong signal directed at the line) to perform a fast and simple search for the section of wire that has a problem.

      Even during normal summer storms tens or even hundreds of thousands of people in our area lose power, and not just for a few minutes, but for hours, even days at a time. If the lines were under ground these kinds of vast and extreme outages would be history. Sure, people would get upset over shorter outages, instead, but not suffer the kinds of extreme hardships that plague us to the point where we paid for a whole-house generator hooked up to our gas line. Talk about expensive, but we got fed up with those multi-day outages all the time.

      --
      --Udo.
    35. Re:Frequency is troubling by udoschuermann · · Score: 1

      Precisely. The number of trees that Pepco chopped down, and how that uglified (fuglified!) the neighborhoods is quite astounding, but it did not seem to have much of any effect on the resilience of the power infrastructure. That's because trees are not the only force that can damage the lines. There is wind, too, and ice/snow in the winter, for example. And those poles get snapped in two by storms even without the help of trees. It seems to me that cutting all the trees down to the roots didn't do nearly as much as Pepco had hoped it would.

      --
      --Udo.
    36. Re:Frequency is troubling by udoschuermann · · Score: 1

      Good for you, but the key is that your power lines are under ground, and there are probably no above-ground lines between you and the nearest distribution center that were taken down to cut you off. There are plenty of areas in Maryland, too, where that happens to be the case, but I think Virginia as a whole got hammered just as hard as Maryland, and had at least as many customers in the dark. Above-ground lines need to go, or this kind of fustercluck is going to repeat.

      --
      --Udo.
    37. Re:Frequency is troubling by udoschuermann · · Score: 1

      More like .99 reliability, actually, and for a number of people it's even worse than that (nearly as bad as .9). If the outages were spread across the year as one hour here, and two hours there, it would be highly annoying but would not result in all your food rotted in the fridge twice a year, requiring you to compete with tens of thousands of other people for hotel rooms to escape the boiling heat, spend a extra money eating out every meal of the day, and go to work all moist and stinky.

      See, if this were a backwater republic in the steppes of Africa (no offense intended, Africa!) then sure, what can you expect? But the US is supposed to be an advanced and modern nation (we have super computers, fighter jets, nuclear bombs, and we send probes across the freaking solar system, yo!), but our basic utilities are so shaky that people pay small fortunes to install backup generators on their houses... What's wrong with that picture?

      --
      --Udo.
    38. Re:Frequency is troubling by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      More like .99 reliability, actually

      More like .998 by the figures the OP gave if you want to get picky.
       

      See, if this were a backwater republic in the steppes of Africa (no offense intended, Africa!) then sure, what can you expect? But the US is supposed to be an advanced and modern nation

      If backwater republics in Africa got up to .5 they'd declare a national holiday. You're an idiot without a clue and with an overinflated sense of self entitlement.

    39. Re:Frequency is troubling by bitingduck · · Score: 1

      It's sad that my internet service is more reliable than my electricity. If it's so expensive to bury wires, how come Verizon just did it a couple years ago when they installed FiOS?

      When we had the big power outages in northern LA county in december of last year, the phone and cable companies kept their signals going by dropping generators all over the place. Going out for a bike ride while the power was out, I passed a couple of phone company boxes that had generators next to them, and saw cable company trucks parked here and there with extension cords reaching up into their boxes that were low down on the poles. If you look at the trucks driving around (even when power is fine) a lot of them have gasoline powered generators strapped on them.

      Power around here is flaky not because it's above ground, but because it's old and poorly maintained, and a lot of it is close to being overloaded on a normal day. We've had the same upstream transformer blow a number of times in the past few years, a couple times it was within a week of its previous replacement. They don't seem to try to figure out why it's going, or reduce the load. They just replace the broken bit over and over. We lose power pretty regularly for no apparent reason.

    40. Re:Frequency is troubling by TrimTabTim · · Score: 1

      Sorry dude, but that means the buried lines weren't done right. They must have put non-waterproof equipment or junctions underground - I've seen this silly engineering before in the US. The thinking goes: This sewer *never* floods and has only 1 yard of water in it - we can mount our non-submersible junction box high on the wall fast and cheap. Then the 10 or 50 year storm arrives and folks are SOL.

      As an expat US citizen living in North Germany, I am quite keen to look in the ditches when they are servicing the utilities and they do all cables and junctions under 3-5 yards of raw wet earth. Sidewalks are all reusable paver stones and all utilities are essentially below the sidewalks. The power stations and transformer farms are above ground - often in locked bunker style buildings hidden everywhere out of sight, and the below ground cables are all sealed in these interesting water proof giant shrink-glue wrappings with stainless spring side clamp protective seals. Not a single suspended power or phone cable anywhere, and outages are super rare. In the 10 years I've lived here, I've seen 2 brief five minute outages caused by scheduled maintenance. And I've seen crazy ice storms that coat trees (and my poor car) with 2 inches of solid ice and severe rain storms which cause sporadic temporary flooding. The lights and heat stay on.

      If US utilities want to learn how to bury infrastructure, they should visit Germany. It's an art form here, and as a mechanical / electrical engineer, I love observing their clever tricks. They got us licked on this point.

    41. Re:Frequency is troubling by unitron · · Score: 1

      What? Where you do live that power lines are not strung through conduit when laid underground???

      I'm guessing most anywhere where power lines are buried underground.

      Now if you mean buried under streets in a large urban area, that's a different situation, but in places where people have houses that have yards, conduit would just get in the way of digging down to where the problem is and splicing it.

      --

      I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.

    42. Re:Frequency is troubling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most of these problems are due to loss of electricity...

    43. Re:Frequency is troubling by fredthomsen · · Score: 1

      I noticed the same thing when I moved into the area. I lived in Atlanta and moderate storms here seem like they take down power as long as super severe storms did there. The reliability is a major issue and it seems to be worse in areas served by Pepco distribution vs Allegany Power distribution. It appears that Pepco doesn't have the funds or doesn't want to invest in their infrastructure. The city of gaithersburg isn't without blame because they have some ridiculous restrictions on tree and branch trimmings.

    44. Re:Frequency is troubling by swalve · · Score: 1

      Illinois, for one. Just three 2cm cables twisted and buried about half a meter deep. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct-buried_cable

    45. Re:Frequency is troubling by Meski · · Score: 1

      Or did it fail because the water mains and sewer treatment lost their power as well? THey probably have backup, but that wouldn't take them through long power outages.

  17. All these utilities should be underground... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    problem solved.

    1. Re:All these utilities should be underground... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, until they have to dig up an entire city to fix the lines as opposed to just lifting a guy up to a pole to fix it.

  18. Out of Country Too! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Several hundred electrical workers from Ontario are also helping out.

  19. Derecho is what happens by gtrubetskoy · · Score: 1

    when you add an extra leap second...

  20. Burying the lines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Something y'all should keep in mind (and into Day 5 without power) is that burying the lines isn't a silver bullet. There's lots of stuff that can go wrong with underground wires, and it doubles, triples, quadruples the time, effort, and expense to repair an underground fault. With the lines overhead, access to the grid is quick and cheap, and many times, the fault is visible.

    1. Re:Burying the lines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is not finding and fixing a single fault, it is easy for overhead and underground wires. Problems are disasters which produce so many faults that the network falls apart. For overhead the disaster is storms, for underground earthquakes are the problem. How often do you have storms in the northeast and how often earthquakes?

    2. Re:Burying the lines by vlm · · Score: 1

      quadruples

      More like 10 times. I know what I speak of... working in the general greater telecom field for approaching two decades, both sides of the biz, multiple companies.

      Aerial fiber vs buried fiber is, on the very long run, across 3 different companies, is around 10:1 ratio of time for MTTR.

      Something no one on /. wants to talk about in the bash-fest is that if a tree is ripped out of the ground, it'll destroy buried lines just as well as it'll destroy aerial lines. It'll just take 10 times longer to fix the ripped up buried lines. As a betting man I'd place money that on average people with buried lines are/will suffer worse service on average than aerial.

      Buried is expensive; Simplistic way to "fix" things is to throw money. Burial seems the obvious way to waste the money. Probably not gonna help.

      What no one wants to admit is basically its was a class-1 hurricane-over-land and Florida knows exactly how to clean up after those every year and has decades of experience doing it, but Ohio has no freaking idea.

      Just think about anecdote time. When I was a kid a tipped over tree knocked the line off our house after a major storm. One lineman with a ladder and replacement fuses and a spool of cable and some splices fixed it in, no kidding, less than 15 minutes. If that was underground and the overturned tree ripped that up, well, that would have taken three guys with shovels and a ditchwitch and maybe a front end loader ... maybe a couple days labor for a couple linemen?

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    3. Re:Burying the lines by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

      Over head lines need more repairs than underground lines. The more damage do to storms makes putting them underground cheaper alternative.

    4. Re:Burying the lines by EliSowash · · Score: 1

      Citation needed. That the overhead lines need more repairs may be true, but as vlm stated, the repairs are quick and cheap. I maintain that overhead lines, while prone to failure, are still the cheap route.

  21. The infrastructure is significantly behind by dslmodem · · Score: 3, Informative

    When I first came to US, I was shocked to see those wood utility poles. It is so ancient. There are many excuses for keeping those. People need to go to some developing countries, particularly BRIC, to take a look at their infrastructures. Where is the $$ for change?

    --

    ^(oo)^pig~

    1. Re:The infrastructure is significantly behind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where is the $$ for change?

      Probably in the purses of rich who pay nearly no taxes?

      Or in cases of privatized infrastructure in the purses of the shareholders

    2. Re:The infrastructure is significantly behind by am+2k · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Where is the $$ for change?

      Harvested by the already rich?

    3. Re:The infrastructure is significantly behind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Being spent on keeping our grandparents alive for a few more years. And a new carrier battle groups.

    4. Re:The infrastructure is significantly behind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That's because our infrastructure was mostly built out in the 30s and 40s, partly as a federal program to provide jobs (REA, WPA) after the Depression. The materials used (steel and oil for transformers, for instance) have 100 year lifetimes, so it's not unreasonable to keep them in service, except when occasional failures occur, or for efficiency reasons (changing transformers to reduce losses). Wood is a reliable, inexpensive, long lived building material, especially when you have BIG forests with BIG trees to make the poles from. I wouldn't recommend wooden poles for Egypt, for instance. But there are plenty of millenia old wooden structures around doing just fine.

      Europe has a fairly new infrastructure for a simple reason: most of it was bombed into oblivion in the 40s, and they spent the 50s and 60s rebuilding it. There is also a significant topological difference in power distribution in EU compared to the US. In the US, there are much larger areas with medium population density, whereas in EU, there are clumps of high density, surrounded by fields. (and there's plenty of millions of ha with nobody in the US, as well). EU distribution tends to have a lot of consumers hanging off one transformers, while in the US, it's typically less than 8. EU uses a lot of Gas Insulated gear: reduced fire hazard from insulating oil in urban environments.

      BRIC is even newer: back in the 30s and 40s, they were using oil lamps and didn't even have electric power utilities, per se, at least on a nationwide grid. There's a reason why all the High Voltage Engineering textbooks are written by Brazilians, Indians and Egyptians.. they were building that stuff for the first time back in the 60s, so they got good hands on experience. Big hydroelectric installations like Aswan High Dam on the NIle and Itaipu on the Iguazu prompted the development of large electrical system infrastructures, and the rural electrification that came with it. China's rural areas are still electrifying

      I'll bet that if you go to rural Brazil or China 40 years from now, it will look just like rural US today.

      the reason they have reliability problems in the US today can be laid at the feet of one thing: "deregulation". When you start to run a utility as a business, and don't have any significant direct cost for failure, then your optimum strategy is to spend just enough to keep the system running at an acceptable failure rate. Whether you do maintenance spread out over years, or all at once in response to a disaster is sort of immaterial.. and it's cheaper to wait for the disaster, because that shifts the costs later (time value of money, etc.). The utility doesn't normally bear the costs of the failure's impact on customers.

      Compare the reliability of wireline phone service (heavily regulated, particularly because of 911) to the reliability of cable TV (essentially unregulated). In a disaster, even if the power is off, you have a reasonable expectation that if you pick up the phone, you get a dial tone. (and you can call the power company to ask when power will be restored) You have no such expectation if you have a cell phone, or VoIP provisioned through "the cloud", or Cable modem.

      As a famous person (I think it was Scholes) once said: one should not consider an unlikely outcome as being impossible. What modern deregulated businesses do is optimize for the 95% occurrences..

    5. Re:The infrastructure is significantly behind by Talderas · · Score: 2

      Where is the $$ for change?

      In the pockets of those purchasing the electricity.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    6. Re:The infrastructure is significantly behind by tmosley · · Score: 1

      More like harvested to be use for the killing of brown people around the world.

    7. Re:The infrastructure is significantly behind by am+2k · · Score: 1

      More like harvested to be use for the killing of brown people around the world.

      Guess who owns the the companies profiting from those endeavors.

    8. Re:The infrastructure is significantly behind by tmosley · · Score: 1

      Dick Cheney, duh.

    9. Re:The infrastructure is significantly behind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope. funding public sector union retirement plans.

  22. Trim the fucking trees by TorrentFox · · Score: 5, Informative

    I sat in on a town hall meeting where JCP&L fumbled majorly in explaining themselves after taking a week or more to restore power in northern NJ. They gave all manner of excuses, and the meeting attendees pointed out endless examples of dead branches hanging over wires. Their policy? Then don't touch the branch unless the branch is *hanging* on the wire. How's that for foresight? The moment a strong wind kicks up, they lose power. They're so fucking cheap that they fired all their linemen, and now out-of-state emergency support has become the ONLY support.

    Shame on them.

    1. Re:Trim the fucking trees by Howard+Beale · · Score: 1

      This. With Atlantic City Electric I see the same thing. Hurricane Irene's outages I blame on poor maintenance, trimming. This time around, the trees are shattered - it's amazing how some look.

    2. Re:Trim the fucking trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      After snowpocalypse and snowpocalypse 2, Pepco went around and trimmed many of the trees. They even asked if they could take down a 2.5ft diameter one in front of my house, for free, that was close to the road. Even after all of that, you still have thousands without power. Trimming the trees isn't going to do it because trees keep growing.

      Burying the lines, as suggested by others, wouldn't work either around here since the water mains keep breaking.

    3. Re:Trim the fucking trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But we need a smaller government so we can have more freedom! The invisble hand of the free market will trim the trees.

    4. Re:Trim the fucking trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That's called the hand of god, and it seems to be doing a good job of trimming the trees.

    5. Re:Trim the fucking trees by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 1

      ^This! Way back in the 80s, my power went out at the drop of a hat. Any hat. Anywhere. These days, outages are rare. The big difference is the trees. A lot of them might be ugly from being trimmed to avoid the wires, but to me, ugliness is a small price for more reliable power.

      --
      Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
    6. Re:Trim the fucking trees by PPH · · Score: 1

      Want to see some little old ladies go into apoplectic shock? Just have a line crew show up with a bucket truck and pole saw and try to cut back some of the beautiful street trees the city has planted.

      I don't know about the East Coast, but out here in Seattle, we have community organizations dedicated to the propagation of power line killing, pollen shedding, crapping bird perches.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    7. Re:Trim the fucking trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is the same situation in Ohio. Remember when the entire Eastern half of the country went without power a few years ago? It started in Ohio. Stupid AEP.

    8. Re:Trim the fucking trees by __aaeihw9960 · · Score: 1

      That's less a problem with the power company, and more a problem with tree selection. Plant some damned trees, but make sure they grow>10ft. A little education on the part of the community organization could go along way. We have a friends of the canopy group here in the middle of the country who advocates successfully for that old-timey main street scene. What is their number one way? Education for the public that 10ft is what we're regulated to here, and that a tree listed to grow 30-80 feet has no business on a city street or near power lines. It seems to work (except for when tornadoes show up - those assholes ruin the party). Now the only problem we have is that maintenance is so low that the local power company cut nearly all of its maintenance workers. You're welcome, Mr. CEO, for your yearly bonus at our expense.

    9. Re:Trim the fucking trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's NJ... Fucking cesspool... That's why. You folks in jersey are all fucked in the head from all the toxic waste you allowed to be dumped in your state.

    10. Re:Trim the fucking trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Writing as anon since I'm too lazy to sign in....

      My Dad used to work for Ontario Hydro as a Forrester. He would travel around the local area trimming trees away from hydro lines. He is retired now.

      Many years ago (early 90's??) there was a huge storm that came through the NE states, and caused a huge power outage. Crews from all over came to the area to help repair the damage. Dad was on one of the crews.

      He said them (20+ years ago) that the American utilities did not do any maintenance/line trimming; they would wait until a storm occurred, and then rely on financial assistance from the government to repair the damage. This of course would result in an enormous outage for the utilities customers.

      Unfortunately in the past 10 years or so, Ontario has started to become lazy in keeping hydro right-of-ways clear meaning that we are starting to have more frequent power outages as well.

      C'est la via.

    11. Re:Trim the fucking trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I sat in on a town hall meeting where JCP&L fumbled majorly in explaining themselves after taking a week or more to restore power in northern NJ.

      I remember this. PSE&G did a much better job than JCP&L. I know neighboring Robbinsville, NJ (I'm in Hamilton/Trenton) petitioned PSE&G to take over the utilities in the town from JCP&L. I don't know where this went or if it is going to happen but I've been happy with PSE&G. I understand others may have the opposite opinion.

    12. Re:Trim the fucking trees by dkf · · Score: 1

      Want to see some little old ladies go into apoplectic shock? Just have a line crew show up with a bucket truck and pole saw and try to cut back some of the beautiful street trees the city has planted.

      I don't know about the East Coast, but out here in Seattle, we have community organizations dedicated to the propagation of power line killing, pollen shedding, crapping bird perches.

      So bury the power lines. Costs more to install, and lots more when you have to do maintenance (thankfully less often) but you have far less trouble with storms; the lines are definitely more protected than above ground. OTOH, backhoes, tree roots and burrowing animals will now acquire new significance to your daily lives...

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    13. Re:Trim the fucking trees by PPH · · Score: 1

      So bury the power lines.

      Aside from the cost problems (which may others have already addressed), there's a related problem: Who and how to pay.

      Our utility already has a program to bury existing overhead lines. The cost is payed by adjacent property owners, sometimes as a part of a local improvement district (LID). If the utility was to change its policy, have the projects funded from general tax funds, or levied against all ratepayers, there would be political problems. The property owners now on the hook for LID assessments would shit bricks.

      Often, these LID projects are undertaken where overhead lines interrupt views and detract from property values. Many developers will have the obstructing lines undergrounded when they redevelop property (i.e. buy up older houses and build high rise condos). And that costs them, and ultimately the purchasers, a bundle of money. One place you can see the side effects of this in Seattle is along Alki Way. New condo developers have paid to underground one or two spans in front of their new buildings. Meanwhile, stretches of one or two story houses next door still have overhead lines in front of them. At some point, it would be cheaper for the city just to say, "Screw it. Bury the entire line." But that would be political suicide, since the developers and condo owners would perceive this as a benefit given to the smaller property owners for which they had to pay dearly. So now, the line just goes up, down, up, down,.... as you drive along that road.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  23. Privatization Disadvantage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Vote for Romney and privatize even more infrastructure and eventually Apple/Google/etc can afford high tech uptime, and the rest of US infrastructure (certainly rural area, without COOPs) will have India-like outages . . . (quote me in 5 years, and you won't laugh about this one anymore)

    1. Re:Privatization Disadvantage by sycodon · · Score: 1

      (quote me in 5 years, and you won't laugh about this one anymore)

      Sure...who are you?

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    2. Re:Privatization Disadvantage by tmosley · · Score: 1

      Are you kidding me? Romney is the East Coast liberal who invented Obamacare. He only pretends to be kinda conservative so idiots will vote for him.

      If there are outages, they will be caused by a combination of overregulation and regulatory capture, just like it is today (look at uptime in Texas vs the East or West coast).

    3. Re:Privatization Disadvantage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Romney invented Obamacare - he doesn't recall it . . . he won't recall anything he said a day before - could be a good thing too ;-)

      As other posted above, the infrastructure is going down in the USA . . . while fiberconnectivity is laid down, great net connection, but the rest of the physical infrastructure will go down further, because there is no profit to be gained. As a profit-centered society the USA will learn the hard way there is life beyond profit . . . it's a young country to learn that.

    4. Re:Privatization Disadvantage by tmosley · · Score: 1

      What part of "monopolies deliver an inferior product at an outrageous price" do you not understand.

    5. Re:Privatization Disadvantage by unitron · · Score: 1

      Romney's no more a liberal than he is a conservative or anything else.

      His only firm political belief is that he believes he'd like to be President.

      --

      I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.

    6. Re:Privatization Disadvantage by Beeftopia · · Score: 1

      Are you kidding me? Romney is the East Coast liberal who invented Obamacare. He only pretends to be kinda conservative so idiots will vote for him.

      Romney will say whatever he thinks he needs to, so he can get power. Much like most politicians.

  24. Solar Power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because people don't have a few solar panels on their roofs?

    It would only take 4 solar panels to run the lights, TV and fridge in an energy efficient home. It won't run the AC though. The TV crews should find some people with solar panels on their home and show how they are surviving this week.

    People used to live with no AC, but there wasn't a blanket of CO2 and loads of asphalt/concrete keeping the hot air close to the ground back then.

    I went to Australia and there are lots of homes with a few solar panels on them down there. In Vegas, they are much more rare. In the Midwest, even more so. Make your own power people and you don't need to worry about the infrastructure and grid.

    1. Re:Solar Power by Howard+Beale · · Score: 1

      Problem with most solar installations were I live (and I have solar as well), this that we are currently required to have our solar shut down so it doesn't backfeed to the street. I understand there are ways around that, but we've got a generator and I'll live with that for now.

    2. Re:Solar Power by geekoid · · Score: 1

      You should be able to have a switch put in the stops back feed. With down' lines, back feed could kill someone, so don't 'get around' it.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    3. Re:Solar Power by Howard+Beale · · Score: 1

      From when I put our solar install in, as far as New Jersey goes, you can't do that. Perhaps soon, with the number of outages and number of installs both going up.

    4. Re:Solar Power by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 1

      In many states, it's illegal to install grid-tie solar panels without an automatic cut-off to prevent backfeed. Many inverters designed for home use come with that feature built in. (Which is why they're called 'grid-tie inverters'.) Your house continues using power from the panels, while your house wiring is disconnected from the grid. The good ones keep a detector on the grid connection and automatically reestablish your grid connection when the grid is repaired and starts delivering power again.

      Such devices aren't cheap. $400-$500, usually. More expensive than they should be, but they don't enjoy much in the way of volume production.

  25. Big deal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Nature happens. You guys are knee'jerk reacting. Next story.

    1. Re:Big deal by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 0

      And you're an ass-wipe. next comment.

    2. Re:Big deal by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Nature happens. You guys are knee'jerk reacting. Next story.

      Pretty much. It was a big effin storm, there was lots of damage - and it takes time to repair it. No utility staffs for these emergencies for the same reason businesses don't staff for the Christmas rush year 'round.... it's just too expensive. (And the folks howling about the slow response would howl even louder if their rates were raised to pay for that staff.)

    3. Re:Big deal by Meski · · Score: 1

      Insightful? We need a metamod score of 'ironical'

  26. Crappy NE grid by zwede · · Score: 0

    I can't help but wonder why the grid is so crappy up there in the northeast. 80 mph winds... big whoop. We had that a few weeks ago down here (North Texas). Several trees down in my neighbourhood, many damaged roofs. But power never went out. Didn't even flicker. All power lines here are buried except high voltage. Why can we do it when the northeast can't?

    1. Re:Crappy NE grid by jonnythan · · Score: 2

      The NE neighborhoods are so old they predate power lines. Tearing up all the streets and sidewalks in the entire northeastern US would have cost ridiculous amounts of money.

    2. Re:Crappy NE grid by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

      As opposed to to the economic cost of constantly having power outages do to storms. In the long room it would be cheaper.

    3. Re:Crappy NE grid by bws111 · · Score: 1

      First of all, the current outages are not in the northeast, they are in the mid-Atlantic region. Having said that, we did have some problems up here in the northeast last year, from Irene and from an early blizzard (while the trees still had leaves).

      So, exactly how bad is the situation up here? According to the local utility, when there are no major storms the reliability of their service is 99.96%. When there are major storms (which is where buried utilities would help), the reliability plummets - all the way down to 99.92%.

      So, how much would it cost to bury the lines to gain back that 0.04%? According to the utility, burying a mile of distribution line costs $1.6M (times 7300 miles = $12B), and burying a mile of transmission line costs $7M (times 600 miles = $4.2B). Add in another $530M to remove the existing above-ground stuff, and another $1.3B to install ground-mounted transformers (on private property) and equipment. Total cost to the utility, $18B. That would require a permanent annual revenue increase of $3.24B per year, or $10,000 PER CUSTOMER EVERY YEAR. In addition, each customer would be required to spend about $2K to have an electrician install the new underground service to their house.

    4. Re:Crappy NE grid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed. It's not like we (Connecticut) have tornadoes (or prairie fires) rolling through periodically to grind everything down for the next rebuilding cycle.

    5. Re:Crappy NE grid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      they have trees in Texas?

    6. Re:Crappy NE grid by jonnythan · · Score: 1

      Or carpet bombing. Having your cities all mostly destroyed by warfare is a pretty good excuse to rebuild. Unlike much of Europe, that hasn't happened in the northeast US in quite a while.

    7. Re:Crappy NE grid by ZFox · · Score: 1

      It is of course hard to point to any one thing, but one key difference is that Texas essentially has its own independent power grid with multiple link redundancy for overages. It evolved that way to reduce federal oversight from FERC.

    8. Re:Crappy NE grid by MasaMuneCyrus · · Score: 1

      I think a lot of our European friends continue to underestimate the size of the US. There are over 160 million utility poles in the US. The distance from Seattle to Miami is like the distance between London and Tehran. Changing all of those poles to steel or moving the lines underground is unnecessary. Powerlines are underground where they need to be--newer residential neighborhoods, newer towns, and downtowns of most cities--and they are above ground elsewhere. The reliability of power is already great. Big cities don't have power outages. Suburbs may have rare power outages from severe storms a couple times a year. It also depends on your area. Trees in Miami are stronger against wind than trees in Virginia, for instance. And though people in the US typically don't want powerlines running to their house (and most people don't have them unless they're in a 60 year old house), nobody cares if there are lines running down the road.

      Additionally, to those saying that "Europe doesn't have power outages, even in storms," I think you fail to understand the power of storms in the US, and I think you glob the whole US together as a single place. There's not going to be a power outage in a city from gale-force winds, but there may be in the suburbs. I'm a grad student, and I see the international students routinely just sitting upstairs doing their work when the tornado sirens go off. No matter what I do, I cannot drive into their heads the power of severe storms, here. I've been told that they thought tornadoes were kind of like in the Wizard of Oz. They're not. Europe is no stranger to high winds and strong low pressure systems, but the US gets storms of these strength routinely. Hundreds, maybe thousands of supercell thunderstorms of these strength hit the US every year. They pop up along or in front of huge cold front systems that come through. It usually happens where the cold, Canadian air and the warm, moist Gulf of Mexico air meet--in the Midwest and South--and the Midwest and South are thusly well-equipped to handle them. The Gulf states are also well-equipped to handle hurricanes. The states on the east coast are not as equipped for handling these kinds of disasters because they do not need to be. Likewise, Alabama is not as well-equipped to handle snow as New York might be.

    9. Re:Crappy NE grid by jank1887 · · Score: 1

      remember that whole Stimulus thing that the current Dem and previous GOP whitehouse both supported? That was supposed to fund short term infrastructure projects to improve long term health of the country's backbone infrastructures? I recall we got a few repaired roads. I remember a lot of people talking about funding 'the smart grid'. I don't recall anyone saying "hey, lets bury the lines so we don't lose millions every time a storm comes along. we predict there will be more storms..."

      hindsight is 20/20, but still...

    10. Re:Crappy NE grid by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      You realize that a lot of regions and other countries already have buried lines, right, and hence those numbers are completely, flatly, delusional?

      Also, while I have in no idea how much it really costs to bury cable (Except it cannot be a damn 1.6 million dollars a mile, or sewer systems simply would not exist. And building subways would bankrupt the country.), I do have some basic idea how much electricians charge, and in no universe does it cost an electrician $2K to move the cable to your breaker box from from your old meter to a new meter. (We are assuming for some reason that the power company did not hook the new buried lines up to the old meter...why, I don't know.)

      $2K is enough to have an electrican walk up and install inside power (with a few outlets, and a ceiling light) to a house with just a meter! Moving a _cable_ from one meter to another for a house already wired for power is trivial...you're basically just paying for the electrician to show up. (Although, again, as I said, if the power company changes how power gets to my house, part of that job is to hook it into my _existing_ systems at that time, like to my actual existing power meter, at which point I'd have power and wouldn't have to hire anyone at all.)

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    11. Re:Crappy NE grid by bws111 · · Score: 1

      You do realize that there are differences between places, right? The challenges and costs associated with burying a cable in a flat location with sandy ground are going to be considerably different than those associated with burying a cable in mountainous area made of granite.

      More importantly, you do realize that there is enormous difference between doing work in an area where there is currently nothing and retrofitting an existing area, right? Yes, if you are building a NEW area you can just dig away, bury your cables, and lay the new road over it. Easy and cheap. Now do that in an existing area. First, you need to map out where every gas line, water pipe, sanitary sewer, and storm sewer already are. Then, you need to dig very carefully, often by hand, around all that existing stuff. Then you put in your tunnel or conduit, again avoiding all the existing stuff. Then you cover it all back up, and repave the road you destroyed.

      You think $1.6M a mile is expensive? The third NYC water tunnel is costing $100M/mile. Near me is a city street with a sinkhole because of a collapsing storm sewer. Estimated cost to repair one tenth of a mile of the storm sewer is $2M.

      I'm sure if you can do it for under $1.2M/mile the power companies will be more than happy to hire you.

      And lastly, no, it is just 'moving a cable'. The cable is currently 15 feet above ground. Moving it means digging a trench (and repairing the subsequent damage), putting a hole in the foundation for the wire to pass through, doing proper bonding, etc. $2K is not at all out of line. I don't know where you got the idea that the power company is responsible for wiring to your house, they aren't. They do the actual work, you pay for it.

    12. Re:Crappy NE grid by sycodon · · Score: 1

      They skipped the process of getting the money to the governments, who would contract with the construction companies who paid the union members who then paid Union dues and just gave it directly to the Unions.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    13. Re:Crappy NE grid by sycodon · · Score: 1

      In central Texas, you don't just bring in a backhoe and dig a trench. You have to bring in a large trenching machine and grind through the rock...at about a few yards an hour or so.

      And you would need a smaller version to get the power to your house, perhaps having to cut through your driveway, fences, etc. And then perhaps going around your existing gas, sewer and water lines. It's not like Cable TV where they bury it a few inches below your lawn. There are rules about depth and location lest some homeowner planting a bush be electrocuted.

      Much cheaper in a new development. But in an existing one it is a giant pain in the ass.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    14. Re:Crappy NE grid by sycodon · · Score: 1

      Funny...Plus 1 please.

      But just for interest sake, almost half of Texas is either piney woods or rolling pastures and savannahs. North (Panhandle) and West Texas is where you find the tumbleweeds.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    15. Re:Crappy NE grid by dkf · · Score: 1

      The NE neighborhoods are so old they predate power lines. Tearing up all the streets and sidewalks in the entire northeastern US would have cost ridiculous amounts of money.

      But they've also got lots of people to pay for it. (Being in an old neighborhood isn't a reason to not bury. It's an excuse, and a poor one too.)

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
  27. Please by TraumaFox · · Score: 2

    My home state of CT had two storms that took out power to most of the state for over a week just last year. Get on our level.

    On a serious note, it's kind of sad to see that even after our horrendous storms and massive consumer backlash against CL&P's near-monopoly, there are still power companies out there acting like it could never happen to them, not having a contingency plan for the worst case scenario.

  28. Unions and Liability? by xxxJonBoyxxx · · Score: 0

    >> After Recent US Storms, Why Are Millions Still Without Power?

    In part it's because the idea of low skill laborers to supplement a highly trained core is something that unions generally oppose. (Normally, unions benefit from busy times by getting higher wages during overtime. Management would also be tempted to use a supplemental, lower-wage work pool more often than higher-paid workers earning overtime if giving the choice.)

    However, even if local authorities and utilities could mobilize the great masses of unemployed in our ongoing recession, they would likely not want to for fear of liability claims from workers getting hurt cleaning debris, cutting tree limbs or the like. In other words, even though they may be paying a union member 2x his normal wage rate to clear trees, once you factor in legal expenses, it might still be cheaper than hiring someone desperate for a job at $8/hr.

    1. Re:Unions and Liability? by timeOday · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think you're right, except for the spin. The idea of throwing warm bodies at repairing high power lines is not a good one. The reason the liability would be high is because it would be carnage. The job is already dangerous - it's the 8th most dangerous job in the US. Work that is a safe distance from power lines won't be done by the specialized workers you're talking about anyways. As for those greedy unions, right now they're working 16 hour days in 100+ degree heat. I think they deserve every penny. Electricity is cheap.

    2. Re:Unions and Liability? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Get rid of the unions then everyone can be low-skilled (and low-wage) workers.

    3. Re:Unions and Liability? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Well, that post was incredibly wrong.

      Having untrained people around down power lines is likely to get someone killed.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    4. Re:Unions and Liability? by sjames · · Score: 2

      Low skilled workers and 7200 volt power lines, what could go wrong?

  29. For comparison... by bradley13 · · Score: 3, Informative

    For comparison, our computers have reset unexpectedly twice (iirc) in the past 12 years. I assume that both times it was due to a short power-blip. No other outages that I recall. I think occasionally about buying a UPS, but I'm not sure the UPS wouldn't actually decrease the reliability.

    The difference is exactly what you expect: all power wires here are buried. Heck, our house was built in 1934, and the wires were buried. Why does the US still string them up on poles, almost a century later? Weird...

    --
    Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
    1. Re:For comparison... by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      Above-ground is cheaper in building and maintenance. Even with the lots and lots of extra maintenance needed.

    2. Re:For comparison... by Skater · · Score: 1

      For comparison, our computers have reset unexpectedly twice (iirc) in the past 12 years. I assume that both times it was due to a short power-blip. No other outages that I recall. I think occasionally about buying a UPS, but I'm not sure the UPS wouldn't actually decrease the reliability.

      Yeah, I had a UPS whose battery was dying, and my computer was rebooting randomly. I thought the power supply was going bad, then I realized I probably should check the UPS first - that turned out to be the problem. If your power is that reliable, I wouldn't bother with one either. It's one more link in the chain to go wrong. In my post above I was talking about 24+ hour outages, which no UPS I want to buy can handle, but we used to have a bunch of outages that'd just be a minute or two long, too - the UPS was invaluable for those. The reliability plan I mentioned above seems to have eliminated those almost entirely, so I'll probably replace the UPS, but for the power conditioning and orderly shut down, rather than trying to keep the computer alive through outages.

      The difference is exactly what you expect: all power wires here are buried. Heck, our house was built in 1934, and the wires were buried. Why does the US still string them up on poles, almost a century later? Weird...

      I think most new developments are required to have them underground. It's the old developments that haven't moved them.

    3. Re:For comparison... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would you bury a wire? How do you service it when it breaks? That seems like the worst idea I've ever heard of.

    4. Re:For comparison... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To be fair I live in a low wealth suburb of an affluent area. The lines were buried but due to frequent freeze thaw cycles mixed with stone and clay deposited on a glacial esker everything is built on means the power lines get shredded with some frequency. I average a total of around 70 hours per year without power. It usually happens in the winter. Funny thing is when I got a raise and moved just three miles into a higher tax bracket neighborhood my problems disappeared.

    5. Re:For comparison... by udoschuermann · · Score: 1

      As much as I like to rant about the fact that the utility lines in huge, and relatively densely populated areas of the US remain exposed to the fickle and violent elements, there are some factors to be considered:

      To lay utility lines under ground is said to cost 10x more than hanging them off a pole, but I suspect that their vulnerability would be reduced by about the same factor. Although most (all?) new dwelling clusters ("neighborhoods") are built with utility lines under ground (I seem to have a date of 1985 in my head when this became the norm?), a report on NPR today said that it would require decades and billions (10^9) of dollars to bring the existing sprawl up to modern standards. I use the word "sprawl" here as an indicator that the overall population density in the affected areas is probably much less than in other areas of the world where a kilometer of utility lines serves a lot more people. Google Maps can probably give some insights for those who are curious about this sprawl thing.

      As to the repeated smashing of the fragile infrastructure by Mother Nature, I'm curious if anyone has done (or knows of) studies about the diminishing returns of having to fix things over and over again, including the cost to human lives, lost productivity, and the sheer pain and inconvenience of it all. Is it really cheaper to incur repeated damage and pain, than pay the up-front cost of fixing things so they stop getting smashed all the time?

      --
      --Udo.
  30. early 20th century infrastructure by tverbeek · · Score: 2

    I lose electrical power at least once a year. Sometimes it's just a few blocks, sometimes it's a quarter of the city. It usually happens during thunder storms, but once in a while it happens for no apparent reason. It usually takes several hours for it to be restored. This is in a city of 200,000 in the Midwest. Several decades ago, this was acceptable; electricity was a convenience that gave us light and maybe ran some of our home appliances. But today it is essential to our daily lives; too many things now require electricity to work. And yet... we're still using the same basic infrastructure that my grandparents got their electricity from during the Great Depression.

    --
    http://alternatives.rzero.com/
    1. Re:early 20th century infrastructure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      prolly a squirrel at the transformer

    2. Re:early 20th century infrastructure by ceoyoyo · · Score: 2, Informative

      If electricity is essential to your daily life, you might want to seriously consider changing your life. I definitely appreciate the convenience of electricity, and I wouldn't get a whole lot of work done if it went out for an extended period of time, but my life certainly wouldn't be in danger, and I'd even be entertained.

    3. Re:early 20th century infrastructure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not the GP but your comment deserves my wrath. Yes it is essential to my daily life for me to feel comfort and secure. As a person who was impacted by the storm I can tell you that 911 being offline because they had no power, verizon had no power, and the rest of the area had no power is certainly a concern. Imagine that you are told to not call 911 but drive directly to the station to get assistance. Your house is on fire, lets just pack up the kids and go to the fire station. Oh I'm stabbed from the looting that went on, lets hope into my car and go to the fire station. You are completely ignorant to what happens when power goes out on a large scale. I watched how crowded the roads were this weekend and I can tell you it was like a metropolitan city evacuation with the traffic, lines at the gas station, and at places to get food. I can even tell you about how people unable to pay for things because their banks had no power, their credit cards were worthless because the POS system had no way of connecting to the services to conduct the transaction.

      So yes you might not be affected if you only lost power, but on a mass scale that was caused by this past storm? I would call you a moron if you still felt that way.

  31. why are so much wires above ground? by alen · · Score: 4, Interesting

    it's like the wal mart attitude of just buy the cheapest no matter what the hidden costs are of buying more products to make up for the crappy cheapest product in the first place

    same here. dollar wise for the initial costs its cheaper to put up overhead wires. and the repair costs are probably low enough that digging holes is always too expensive.

    and the fact that when you get to the republican areas everyone is always against higher taxes so they make due with crappy infrastructure

    1. Re:why are so much wires above ground? by dunezone · · Score: 4, Insightful

      and the fact that when you get to the republican areas everyone is always against higher taxes

      My girlfriends hometown has a public pool that unfortunately needs extensive repairs because its leaking water. The town said it could fix it by raising taxes and of course there was a huge uproar. Then the town said they could fix it by charging people to use the pool, once again more uproar. Then someone discussed buying the pool but said he would have to charge three times as much on admission fees compared to the public fee to make it profitable. And you guessed it the people were still angry.

      Its like people expect all these municipals and public services to paid off by money that comes out of thin air.

    2. Re:why are so much wires above ground? by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 2

      I live in a Democratic area. We have high taxes, and our infrastructure is still crappy. Just because we're being soaked for taxes doesn't guarantee that they'll be used to repair our infrastructure.

      --
      Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
    3. Re:why are so much wires above ground? by asylumx · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Just out of curiosity, did anyone suggest closing the pool?

    4. Re:why are so much wires above ground? by argStyopa · · Score: 1

      If the raised taxes actually WENT to something like actual infrastructure, instead of paying Lateisha to have her 12th kid from unknown dad number 8, Republicans would probably be more likely to support it.

      But then again, we understand that Dems are cool with it, it's just another Democratic voter.

      --
      -Styopa
    5. Re:why are so much wires above ground? by RabidReindeer · · Score: 2

      it's like the wal mart attitude of just buy the cheapest no matter what the hidden costs are of buying more products to make up for the crappy cheapest product in the first place

      same here. dollar wise for the initial costs its cheaper to put up overhead wires. and the repair costs are probably low enough that digging holes is always too expensive.

      and the fact that when you get to the republican areas everyone is always against higher taxes so they make due with crappy infrastructure

      In the USA, we think a "smart bargain" is paying the lowest price at the cash register.

      It took us a long time to realize that acid rain was also part of the "price" - or conversely, cleaner, more expensive manufacturing processes. Or that maintenance and disposal is also part of the "price".

      But some people don't care. They get their Chinese pet food for the lowest price they can and wonder why the vet is charging so much for a new liver for kitty.

    6. Re:why are so much wires above ground? by chthon · · Score: 1

      So the US is in fact a larger Greece?

    7. Re:why are so much wires above ground? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I live in a conservative area. There are no poles. The budget is balanced. Taxes are average to low. Guns stores are everywhere and violent crime is a novelty. Moderate taxation and weak government doesn't guarantee poor infrastructure.

    8. Re:why are so much wires above ground? by sycodon · · Score: 1

      That's 12 Dem voters.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    9. Re:why are so much wires above ground? by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 1

      Pretty much, except we can print our own money.

      --
      Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
    10. Re:why are so much wires above ground? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No no, paid off by money that come not their pocket.

    11. Re:why are so much wires above ground? by lightknight · · Score: 1

      For some odd reason, the public seems acutely unaware that state institutions are, by and large, bankrupt. Perpetually so.

      We have state governments that have sold off the buildings they own, then lease them, in the belief that this will free up a little money, and they will be able to buy new ones when their 'temporary' fiscal crisis abates. If you are taking out a reverse-mortgage on your house, you are NOT doing well. But the game appears to get 'your' people elected, who will do the spade work to slash funding for whatever they do not support, and redirect those funds to things they do support; removing the air tank from your buddy's back so you have a little more for yourself. Purely institutionalized and legal kleptocracy. What more, the people you elect have done any amount of thinking how to squeeze just a little more blood out of the machinery; to the point where iron-clad agreements are made so they cannot be challenged at a later time, state parks are sold off, and even the nails in the walls are counted as an collateral in some ledger somewhere. There is nothing to liberate from the public treasury, since it's filled with IOU's that will never be paid back.

      --
      I am John Hurt.
    12. Re:why are so much wires above ground? by lightknight · · Score: 1

      The population is, by and large, either unaware how bankrupt the nation actually is, or how much has / is being readily spent.

      --
      I am John Hurt.
    13. Re:why are so much wires above ground? by jyx · · Score: 1

      Its like people expect all these municipals and public services to paid off by money that comes out of thin air.

      Maybe, but it is also because the people are currently paying taxes and rates and bills out the wha-zoo and sometimes its hard to see what they are getting out of it.

      I'm not sure about this local public services, but I know our own city council is continually sending its elected members on overseas junkets, producing flashy informational brochures and 'supporting' an otherwise unsellable local glossy town magazine.

      When people see public officers spending money on themselves or their own interests, people will get cranky when there suddenly isn't enough money for the things that the rates and taxes should be funding.

    14. Re:why are so much wires above ground? by Sri+Ramkrishna · · Score: 1

      This is where investigative journalism comes into play. IT's sad that we don't have any of those, do we? We need the 4th estate to do their jobs too. Yes, I agree that just raising taxes is not enough, we need to be efficient and frugal.

  32. Decentralize! by zerosomething · · Score: 2

    Remove regulatory barriers to small private, personal and community power generation systems and solve this problem!

    --
    It all starts at 0
    1. Re:Decentralize! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We sort of have that already, problem is the other companies piggyback off of the existing infrastructure.

    2. Re:Decentralize! by tmosley · · Score: 1

      Exactly. There is a large windmill down the street from my neighborhood powering a research station. There should be at least one in the field adjoining my neighborhood providing power for us. But nope, all coal, produced by one of two coal power plants outside of town. Well, I say that, but we might be getting some from wind now. But it is certainly still grid reliant.

    3. Re:Decentralize! by geekoid · · Score: 1

      No, it doesn't, and it will make things worse.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    4. Re:Decentralize! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or utility companies could even build/maintain local power generation... solar panels on homes... local windmills ... power generation on those small water dams that just do flood control right now, for example. I couldn't afford to put in and maintain solar panels on my house, but if the utility company build and maintained it, I would let them.

      (Of course, I think if the most bang for the buck might be to cut trees away from the power lines. They don't do much proactive work in this area.)

  33. Simple Answer by American+AC+in+Paris · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Of course the utility companies can take steps between storms to upgrade outdated equipment and trim growth from around power lines.

    The trouble is, we don't want to spend the considerable sums of public money it'd take to make that happen.

    This should come as no surprise to anyone. Our utilities are a hybrid of private enterprise and public good. Since today there is no greater fundamental evil in the United States than the public sector and maintenance is a generally unprofitable annoyance for businesses, don't expect any more expenditure on energy infrastructure improvements than is absolutely necessary.

    --

    Obliteracy: Words with explosions

    1. Re:Simple Answer by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 2

      Except this is the responsibility of the utility. They decided to pay out healthy dividends instead of regular maintenance. When the utilities were regulated back in '92 they were suppose to invest money back into the infrastructure. After deregulation, they don't bother.

    2. Re:Simple Answer by geekoid · · Score: 1

      ". Since today there is no greater fundamental evil in the United States than the public sector"
      Fuck. You.

      If Congress said they wanted to do it, the US government would put the best in the world in place.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    3. Re:Simple Answer by tmosley · · Score: 1

      Is that why we excel so in education?

  34. Power by Bombcar · · Score: 0

    Removing moderation.

  35. The US electric grid has evolved by JoshuaZ · · Score: 2

    The US electric grid is a product of history much more than planning with bits tacked on or merged as short-term goals dictated without much in the way of long-term planning. (There are actually three main US grids, one for the East, one for the West and one for Texas). Maggie Koerth-Baker wrote an excellent book, "Beforee the Lights Go Out," which is about the grid and related issues that discusses this and how it creates a lot of these problems and what we can do about it. I highly recommend it.

  36. 15 minutes by mdsolar · · Score: 1

    We were without power for three days. What has struck me most is that the damage happened in 15 minutes while a hurricane blows for six or eight hours. Also, there was very little rain with this storm system. At the stables is was hard to water the horses with the well pump out. The stream was also dry. Lucky we'd filled all the buckets in the barn a week before.

  37. Third world! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because the USA are just another third world country!

    1. Re:Third world! by Skapare · · Score: 1

      Third world countries don't have issues like this. They are used to the power being on for a couple hours a day, if the community generator is maintained.

      --
      now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
    2. Re:Third world! by udoschuermann · · Score: 1

      Power out for a couple of hours a day is one thing, but take out the power for two, five, or fifteen days at a time and you see an entirely different class of problems. Funny thing is that this kind of outage is almost completely avoidable, if power lines were underground. As far as I am concerned that is the real issue here.

      --
      --Udo.
  38. Air conditioning? Open a window. by TheMathemagician · · Score: 1

    Why are Americans so obsessed with air conditioning? Massive power failure you'd think there'd be more important priorities. Anyway you have slave labour in the form of prison chain-gangs so get them to bury the power cables.

    1. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by dkf · · Score: 3, Informative

      Why are Americans so obsessed with air conditioning?

      Because their summer climate is crap. When you've got temperatures around 100F and humidity over 90%, you become very keen on air conditioning.

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    2. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even been to the Eastern U.S. in the summer? Obviously not. While I agree people are too reliant on air conditioning, the high humidity and temperatures in that part of the country make at least a couple months of the year pretty miserable.

    3. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by Skapare · · Score: 1

      Many people who are alive today might already be dead if we didn't have electric power to make our lives less stressful from things like heat. Of course, one problem is our homes today are designed with powered cooling in mind. That, and we are used to it that way.

      --
      now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
    4. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Open a window: Problem here was 100F [38C] with 80+% humidity and little to no breeze. Also issue where I live is at night I can not keep windows open without the fear of some creeper breaking in.

    5. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by MarioMax · · Score: 1

      Probably because the temperatures + humidity make it, in many cases, hotter than central Europe ever sees. 38-43 degrees C with 90% humidity in the peak of summer is a recipe for death.

      Here in Arizona we obsess over air conditioning, but for good reason: Temperatures are hot for eight months out of the year. In Phoenix it's not uncommon for it to remain dangerously hot until well past midnight in the worst part of summer (morning lows around 32 C).

    6. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by vlm · · Score: 1

      Air conditioning? Open a window.

      Windows are expensive per square inch, and have horrific insulating value when they're closed compared to a wall, so "post air conditioning era" houses tend to have ridiculously poor ventilation. No cross ventilation, small windows, awkward aerodynamics... I hate having to run the air conditioner when its 65 degrees outside, but if I don't it'll be 85 degrees in the house. Most office buildings such as the one I work in have no windows that can open. None. All we have is two entrance doors and a large number of fire doors, and a couple trap doors onto the roof. I grew up in a 1930s house (already old when I got there...) and it had excellent ventilation because that's all they had before air conditioning. Ventilation design features have not been constructed into homes since maybe the 50s.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    7. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by el+jocko+del+oeste · · Score: 1

      Just got our power back on yesterday afternoon. Saturday and Sunday nights were miserable. The problem wasn't just that we had no air conditioning, but that we had no way to move the air at all. We had all our windows open. Not a bit of breeze. The air was just dead. Simply having a fan in the room would have made all the difference. We'll be ready for next time though. I ordered a bunch of small battery powered fans. They won't move much air, but I think they'll do enough to change our comfort index from miserable to uncomfortable.

    8. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why are Americans so obsessed with air conditioning? Massive power failure you'd think there'd be more important priorities. Anyway you have slave labour in the form of prison chain-gangs so get them to bury the power cables.

      1. It's not "Americans", it's "Americans on the East Coast", because the air feels like you just turned off a hot shower, with the ridiculous humidity here. Then tack on the mosquitoes with your open window, from the humid air giving them a breeding ground the size of your entire country. Come hang out in Maryland for a summer, and then voice your opinion.

      2. Everything else is working just fine, with air conditioning comes freezers and refrigerators. What else does anybody need?

      3. Try getting the neighbors to be okay with 20 prisoners on the corner of every block for a few years. That will go over well.

      I'd suggest thinking before you post, but we all see how Europe's doing these days, I don't think it'll help.

    9. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      That, and we are used to it that way.

      Quite true. I know some people who were reared in refrigerated homes and their bodies don't seem to be able to adapt to the heat. That seems like a strong claim, but I can at least vouch for their brains being unable to deal.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    10. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I still don't see why it is as essential as, say, heating in Canada is in winter (although we do get free air conditioning in the summer, all month long :-)).

    11. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by tmosley · · Score: 1

      You do realize that the temperatures on the East Coast have been at or above 38C recently, right? Last time that happened in France, 3000 people died.

      Or are you on one of your local death panels, and thus feel like you get to make a choice as to who lives and who dies, and dictate what is important to others?

    12. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by gman003 · · Score: 1

      Yes, yes, air conditioning is less than essential in, say, England, where 30C is considered "sweltering" and the humidity is generally negligible. Or even in Germany or France, where 40C is highly exceptional.

      Now come over here to the US. I'm a Virginia resident myself - about halfway up the coast, latitude 37.5 degrees north. I actually did pretty fine in the storms - power flickered a bit, had to reset the clocks, but it was back up within seconds each time.

      The day before the storm, it was 43C, and I know this because I'm trying to switch myself over to metric and have all my thermometers and such set to that system. And it was incredibly humid, about 90% humidity - the heat index would have been closer to 50C than to 40C. I'm talking "step outside and have to stop to catch your breath because it feels like your lungs are burning". I'm talking "100F+ in the *shade*".

      And this isn't even in the hottest regions. Texas? Florida? They have it even worse, temperature-wise, most of the time. Not sure about right now, though.

      When the AC goes out in weather like this, people *die*. This is not an exaggeration. They actually have laws in many places preventing power companies from cutting off people's power during heat like this, even for "hasn't paid the bills in six months".

    13. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by Megane · · Score: 1

      Also issue where I live is at night I can not keep windows open without the fear of some creeper breaking in.

      SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS-BOOM! Damn creepers.

      In other places we only have to worry about mosquitoes.

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    14. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by Megane · · Score: 1

      Come over here to Texas right now and try it without air conditioning for a day or two. As for the east coast, they've got a bit of a heat wave going on over there right now. (Babies... we set a record for consecutive days over 100F in central Texas last year.) At least all the H1Bs from India must feel right at home here in Austin.

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    15. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by Megane · · Score: 1

      Also, check the latitude. Texas is at the same latitude as North Africa. The southern tip of France is about at the same latitude as Chicago. England and Ireland are at the same latitude as Canada, but have the Gulf Stream to keep them decently warm.

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    16. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      The town I live in, Karlsruhe, germany, has similar summer climate, nevertheless there are not many air conditioned houses. And I for my part prefer to have none, at my job we keep it switched off most of the time.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    17. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Anyway you have slave labour in the form of prison chain-gangs so get them to bury the power cables.

      I don't know where you live that you still use slave labor, but here in America, to dig we use backhoes. They're very effective, you should check them out for your country, of what, Kazakhstan?

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    18. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by mrsquid0 · · Score: 1

      The outside temperature is over 40 deg and the relative humidity is high. Americans are obsessed with air conditioning because people die in this sort of weather.

      --
      Just because you are paranoid does not mean that no-one is out to get you.
    19. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Death panel is a phrase made up by Fox that is meaningless, stop using it.

      The poster is either a troll, or stupid, not worth responding to.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    20. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by PPH · · Score: 1

      Yes. Air conditioning is essential. Look at how the east coast was practically uninhabited prior to its invention early in the 20th century.

      Build houses to facilitate air circulation (like in the old days) and you can do without A/C from time to time.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    21. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by jpstanle · · Score: 3, Informative

      It's not critical to normal, healthy adults in a resting state, but when the heat index hits 105 to 130 F (40-55C), the sick, elderly, and those performing physical labor start dying. I'd wager that over 50% of the deaths attributed to this storm are due to heat-related illness.

    22. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by tmosley · · Score: 1

      No, you can't. Not when it is 100F and 100% humidity. People could survive back then, SORT OF. Did you forget about what the life expectancy was back then versus today? We aren't talking about whether or not a 25 year old can survive, we are talking about 80 year olds.

    23. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by tmosley · · Score: 1

      Really? Then who was it that made this decision: http://news.sky.com/story/710266/man-22-dies-after-liver-transplant-refused

      When someone else gets to decide whether you live or die based on a whim, you have major, MAJOR problems as a society. Some try to hide from the truth. A brave person would confront it, even if it meant having to take an extreme step like changing your mind.

    24. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why are Americans so obsessed with air conditioning?

      Because we're environmentally conscious -- it takes less energy to cool a home in the summer than it takes to warm a home in the winter.

    25. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by silas_moeckel · · Score: 1

      It's part of the fallout from building all those new homes. Ones that have piss poor ventilation no natural air flow. A big part of older home design was around heating and cooling. I own two homes a 109 year old house and a late 70's that was custom built. Either of them can be cooled by a single 5k btu window ac unit. It's all about the house design. A raised ranch has no airflow so they get hot and stuffy very quickly. They assumed that fans would move air rather than natural convection. Even the landscaping is wrong no tree's proving shade in summer for the house.

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
    26. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by RabidReindeer · · Score: 1

      The town I live in, Karlsruhe, germany, has similar summer climate, nevertheless there are not many air conditioned houses. And I for my part prefer to have none, at my job we keep it switched off most of the time.

      It still isn't that popular to have A/C in more temperate parts of the US, either. While I did some serious melting visiting my relatives in Northern Kentucky in the summer, they only had to put up with it about 2-3 weeks out of the year on average.

      However, a large chunk of the country here is farther South than that. In Florida, the high temperature breaks 90 as early as April, and will continue on until October. For the months of July and August a daily low temperature below 80 is a wondrously cool morning. There's a reason why the state didn't really gain population until air conditioning became widespread. Air conditioning was invented in Florida. Even on cooler days, I've have to run A/C just to keep mildew off the walls - we're surrounded by warm bodies of water.

      I prefer much warmer temperatures than most people do. But it's currently 94 outside and I've got the climate control humming.

    27. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I grew up there and yes you need it; but some people over-do it. I frequently walked around in jeans in that kind of heat. Why? Because I knew that when I got into a building I'd freeze. It would be nice if they would keep it at short sleeve temperatures during the Summer.

      BTW, 90/90 temp/hum is a a myth. That doesn't mean it isn't miserable. The East Coast has weather that's difficult to predict; but late July and August are fairly predictable:

      Hazy hot and humid, highs in the 90s, chance of a thunderstorm.

      Yes, you need A/C to get anything done.

      Here in coastal NorCal, it actually gets cool at night. Even if it was 90 during the day, you can use fans to blow air into the house and get it down to a sleeping temperature. Back East during the Summer you'd have heat trapped in the house and the outside temperature might not fall below 70. The house could just not cool down without help. Even when my father was the sole provider and not making much money, he would sometimes run the A/C for the benefit of us kids. We'd be tossing and turning, and making it hard for them to sleep, assuming that they could actually sleep in those temperatures.

    28. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Amen. I live in Ohio, in the North, which is the same latitude as Spain without the cooling potential of being surrounded by oceans. I don't turn on my AC until it crosses 32c -- and then it's not the temperature, but the humidity that makes it a problem. (But, of course, I sneer at folks who turn it on at 80 or 85, since I hold off for 90) I don't mind hot weather in places with consistent ocean breezes, having lived in Central America. It's living in the middle of a continent that sucks. (I'd hate to live in Texas or Mexico! They've got it bad)

    29. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I blame the piss poor building codes and 'architecture'. It wouldn't cost much to have homes not need AC and to use 10% of the heat they currently use. I had a basement growing up and it was always cool.

      Even in Ohio, solar thermal can heat a room to 130 F in the winter when it is sunny.

      My cellular blinds that replaced the tacky Aluminum foil over the windows works very well to drop the inside air temperature 5-10 degrees so I don't need AC.

      The reduction in air pollution from powering all of the AC units, plus the heat they generate, would help a little too.

      I've been spending more time 'outside' after 8pm, and the temperatures are fine.

    30. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Yes. Recently, actually. My friend and I decided to hike from Battery Park to Central Park. It was hot, sticky and uncomfortable. We appreciated getting back to the air conditioned house afterward. My life was at no point in danger.

      If the AC had gone out for a day or a week I'd have been uncomfortable, but not in danger.

      I've also been to places that make the NE US look like a temperate climate (oh wait, it is). Places where air conditioning is a rumour. They also do just fine, and so did I after a few days of adjustment.

    31. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Similar weather?! To Canada maybe. Your average summertime high is 78 degrees!

    32. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why are Americans so obsessed with air conditioning? Massive power failure you'd think there'd be more important priorities. Anyway you have slave labour in the form of prison chain-gangs so get them to bury the power cables.

      Hey, you know that massive heat wave a couple summers ago that caused a shitload of problems in Europe? That's how hot it is in America every summer. You can't just open a windows because its 95 degrees outside with 98% humidity.

    33. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by PeanutButterBreath · · Score: 1

      No, you can't. Not when it is 100F and 100% humidity. People could survive back then, SORT OF. Did you forget about what the life expectancy was back then versus today? We aren't talking about whether or not a 25 year old can survive, we are talking about 80 year olds.

      Life expectancy was lower, but it wasn't anything close to 25 before AC was invented. Can you cite any evidence of a significant increase in life expectancy that coincided with the introduction of AC?

      There are relatively few 80 year olds -- accommodations can be made for the particularly vulnerable. Everyone else can figure out how to survive -- just like all the poor people who don't have AC at home, people who work out doors in the summer, etc.

    34. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by chihowa · · Score: 1

      The town I live in, Karlsruhe, germany, has similar summer climate, nevertheless there are not many air conditioned houses. And I for my part prefer to have none, at my job we keep it switched off most of the time.

      What?! The average high in the summer is 25C (78F) and 60% humidity! Most places in the US with ubiquitous air conditioning have average highs of at least 30C (90F) and in excess of 75% humidity. I live in Denver now (with average highs still higher than Karlsruhe) and we don't use air conditioning as much as the midwest and eastern US. It's been over 35C here every day for weeks.

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    35. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by jank1887 · · Score: 1

      whole house fans were fairly common maybe up to the 1960's. we have one, and used to run it regularly to pull air through those poor airflow rooms when the temp started to drop in the evening. could avoid AC well into June most years.

    36. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by Beyond_GoodandEvil · · Score: 1

      Why are Americans so obsessed with air conditioning?
      Because we don't believe in European style euthansia for our sick and elderly.

      --
      I laughed at the weak who considered themselves good because they lacked claws.
    37. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by TFAFalcon · · Score: 1

      Cheap construction of buildings. Thin and poorly insulated walls don't keep the heat out, so they have to rely on AC to keep themselves from melting.

    38. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by Fned · · Score: 1

      Mr Reinbach's family said he had started drinking aged 11 when his parents split up and drank heavily from the age of 13.

      Sounds like Mr. Reinbach made that decision.

    39. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by tmosley · · Score: 1

      Yes, people can figure out how to survive, but the French DIDN'T, and that is the POINT. They had 3000 people die in a heat wave because there was no AC there. That doesn't happen in the US because we have nearly universal AC. Only places like Chicago have people die due to heat waves, because they don't have a high penetration of AC.

      And I never said the life expectancy was 25, I said it is easy for a 25 year old to tough out the heat, but it is hard for an 80 year old to do the same. Yes, there aren't a lot of old people, but the original point was that this douche thinks that AC is un-needed, when it clearly is by some, as people without it die during heat waves, and it makes everyone's life a lot nicer.

    40. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by tmosley · · Score: 1

      So you DO want death panels, then.

      You either acknowledge the truth, or hide from it. Regardless of what this man did, he was sentenced to death by people who didn't think he deserved a chance to prove himself. That is a DEATH PANEL, and no amount of wordplay is going to change that fact. Whether you think death panels are legitimate or not is a separate issue.

    41. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      We do have houses with a significantly higher thermal mass here in Germany, though - compare a normal brick construction, or even an old limestone building to a wood-framed construction like you see them all over the US.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    42. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by vlm · · Score: 1

      I looked into installing one, but the cost was about one month's air conditioning bill. Of course there's something to be said for fresh outside air even if it ends up costing more. Also I'd need to do some kind of vent into the attic from the living space which can be heavily insulated in the winter... like a grill with a flap of fiberglass or something. And those big fans draw big power, so you're not trading a 20 amp AC for nothing, you're trading a 20 amp AC for a 1.5 HP fan, which really isn't all that much lower. Yes its lower, but not like 1/100th lower, more like a quarter of running the AC... So run the fan continuously for 4 hours, or the AC on maybe a quarter of the time during those 4 hours, same energy cost... There is some argument that you only get 10K hours out of a $3K compressor, so you save some money by running a cheap to replace fan instead of the AC compressor, so you come out ahead on total cost of ownership.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    43. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by cffrost · · Score: 1

      Air conditioning? Open a window.

      The heat is outside, also.

      Why are Americans so obsessed with air conditioning?

      Because the weather is hot.

      Massive power failure you'd think there'd be more important priorities.

      There are; we deal with those as soon as we're not too hot.

      Anyway you have slave labour in the form of prison chain-gangs [...]

      That's only in the less-civilized states that also enjoy killing their own citizens... Mainly where it's too hot.

      --
      Thank you, Edward Snowden.

      "Arguments from authority are worthless." —Carl Sagan
    44. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by Skylax · · Score: 1

      Man, you must be the weird unpopular guy at your office and I'm sure your coworkers all agree with you that it is absolutely brilliant having to sit 8 hours a day in a nice cozy 30C office especially in a meeting with 20 other people in the room all sweating their asses off. I live in the south part of germany and every summer I am asking myself why we don't have air conditioned houses here like they have in the US. I quite envy the US in this respect. I once stayed in Florida for 3 weeks and every hotel room and house had full air conditioning and I thought to myself this is paradise!
      The company I work for (in Munich) has an air conditioning system where cold groundwater is pumped through the building to cool it down. I don't think I could be very productive at 35C inside, also a lot of Computers would get problems with their thermal management. Apart from that we build sensitive electronics, so we actually need stable temperatures.

      Anyway I'd gladly trade some of our supposedly superior infrastructure for a little bit of US air conditioning. Travelled with german trains lately? Maybe IC or ICE? They have those brilliant AC systems designed for max. 30C outside which means they regularly fail during hot summer days exactly when you'd need them.
      It is totally brilliant to sit uncomfortably in a train fully packed with hundreds of people for 3 hours with 33C outside and the AC is not working. You'd think that the third most powerful economy in the world could build trains with some decent AC, but no. I guess that is because of people like you who think that it costs to much power what with our nuclear power plants switched off and all. But that is a whole different chapter in the book of recent german/european sociopolitical decisions of utter brilliance (dumping hundreds of billions of euros in essentially fucked up southern european economies would be another great one).
      But I better stop now before I wander of into pointless political rant and use the word 'brilliant' too often.
           

    45. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Please, stop using phrases like "people like you who think" ...
      The IC and ICE trains are a mess, everyone knows that.
      Nevertheless adapting to local climat, dressing accordingly etc. makes far more sense than believing you can only survive with AC.
      I for my part shower sometimes, I live and *eat* healthy, so I don't smell bad when sweating. If you smell bad you schould consider your lifestyle ...

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    46. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I live here. I don't care what numbers wikipedia USA is publishing.
      In summer time the humidity is nearly constantly 90% or higher.
      Also you should perhaps agree, phrases like "average high" makes no sense at all. Are we talking about averages or about highs?
      Or about the averages of the high temperatures of a set of days?
      Bottom line averages make no sense if you have 4 days with 40 degrees (90% humidity) and 3 days with 27 degrees (85%) humidity in one week.
      The peak days are there, it is no difference if you average out "higher" because you have 7 days in a row where we only have 4 days in a row with that numbers. Point is the numbers are the same. You are invited to make a visit he in August if you don't be
      ieve me :)

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    47. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      If you want to sweat, that's your choice, but why are you preaching it to everyone as the only way to live?

    48. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by El_Oscuro · · Score: 1

      Ever been to Washington, DC in the summer?

      I lived in Kaiserslautern, not far from Karlsrule, and the summer weather couldn't be more different. If it is miserable in the summer in Kaiserslautern, it is because it is cold and wet. In fact in the 2 years I was there, a typical August day started in the morning at about 50-60 degrees and warmed up to maybe 70-80. You don't need A/C with that weather. It snowed once in May.

      Moving to DC, I was expecting long continous hot summers like in Los Angeles. Nope. Like K-Town, Washington has lots of nice summer days and lots of miserable ones. However the nice ones are cool and the miserable ones hot. The humidity is nothing like Germany. The British used to pay diplomats in DC hazardous duty pay for a reason...

      --
      "Be grateful for what you have. You may never know when you may lose it."
    49. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Karlsruhe, germany

      Normal for July 3rd Max 72F Min 53F

      Houston, Texas

      Normal Max 93F Min 73F

      Now here is a place where it's normal not to have AC.
      Buffalo, NY

      Normal Max 79F Min 61F

    50. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by loftyhauser · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I live in Stuttgart (after having lived in Dayton, OH for over 4 years). This area of Germany is not nearly as hot/humid as the US Midwest is, let alone the DC area. I'm still waiting for the "summer" weather to kick in -- and it's July.

    51. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by loftyhauser · · Score: 1

      You may think you don't smell bad when sweating, but have you every asked those around you what they think?

    52. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by dbIII · · Score: 1

      As someone who lives in the subtropics without airconditioning at home and gets such temperatures and humidity annually I am extremely amused by this discussion. I'm wondering what extra amusement someone from an actual tropical climate would get!
      BTW, those people that died in Paris did so because they were left in poorly ventilated rooms not designed for those extreme conditions. When you have expected conditions of high humidity and 37C then you make sure you do something about it instead of living in little sealed ovens dependant upon electricity to survive.

    53. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by Falconhell · · Score: 1

      Death panels are simply a lie, we have socialised medicine of excellent quality and no death panels in australia. As usual for clueless Americans they do not factor in the fact that many of their own countrymen die because they cant afford any health care. Tmosley always spreads the lie and ignores the truth.

    54. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by Falconhell · · Score: 1

      I lived in an outback Australian town for 5 years, where the temperature was often 40C + without air conditioning. It was uncomfortable at times but I cannot recall ONE death due to not having aircon. More lies TM?

    55. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by udoschuermann · · Score: 1

      With high humidity the human body cannot take effective advantage of evaporation cooling. It's not just that you're soaked in sweat which will not evaporate (a rather unpleasant feeling), but you dehydrate fast as well because the body is desperately trying to sweat more in order to effect the much-needed cooling (but which keeps failing). If you can't stay cool (preferably immobile in the shade), and hydrated under such extreme conditions (which are a normal for summer on the US East Coast), you can get heat-related deaths rather quickly.

      --
      --Udo.
    56. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by udoschuermann · · Score: 1

      No, according to my google-fu, Karlsruhe does NOT get 45C temperatures along with 90+% humidity for weeks or even months on end, not even close. Let's exchange weather for one month, and you'll be on your knees begging for air conditioning! ;-)

      --
      --Udo.
    57. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by Skylax · · Score: 1

      Well as I said you must be the weird guy. First of all I never mentioned that smelling bad is the problem and I'd like you to point me to scientific evidence that shows that there is a relation between the odor of sweat and lifestyle and eating habits (and I'd happily change my mind about that).
      And second of all I find your advice of dressing accordingly rather funny. Would you like me to go to the office in my underwear or what?
      I have no problem doing that at home, but when there are 20 people in a room they on average release 20*40W=800W of heat energy that you need to get rid of.
      Healthy lifestyle or not that's just not comfortable after a while.

      And by the way thank you for implying I smell bad, I mean that was some brilliant deduction from my answer (wtf?) and suggests that you seem to have had problems with that in the past (maybe a girlfriend or two pointed that out) and that made you change your lifestyle so that you are not so socially isolated.
      You probably are also one of those people who jog through the city for the sole purpose of loosing weight so that the women folk will like you more.
      Your just pathetic!

    58. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by rapidmax · · Score: 1

      But even when air conditioning is needed there is no need to chill it below 21C to need a pull-over in the summer. That's just insane. Why not keep the temperature around comfy 25C? (Translation to Fahrenheit left to the reader).

    59. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by dkf · · Score: 1

      I still don't see why it is as essential as, say, heating in Canada is in winter

      I don't think anyone's saying that heating in winter in Canada isn't important! It's just that with temperatures at or over your body's core temperature, and with very high humidity so there's very little to no evaporative cooling, you have a tendency to overheat and very little opportunity to cool down. Getting too hot is lethal (just like getting too cold is). Thus AC (which both cools and dehumidifies) is important in some climates; the south-eastern part of the USA has that sort of climate. (The US south-west is mainly hotter but drier, so evaporative cooling is more effective.)

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    60. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Well, seems I missinterpreted the point you wanted to make and now you do the same to me :D
      So my appologizes.
      However: and I'd like you to point me to scientific evidence that shows that there is a relation between the odor of sweat and lifestyle and eating habits I doubt people make scientific studies for stuff that is obvious. However I guess if you google you will find enough hints supporting my point.
      My main point was: there are plenty of areas where it is hot and people live withour AC.
      Is not my fault that I'm sitting now in a bureau with 12 people at roughly 35 degrees centigrade ... and we have no AC on.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    61. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Well as I said before: I live here (in Karlsruhe) since 25 years.

      So who is more right some random data showing up by a computer or my thermometer?

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    62. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      The climat of Stuttgart is completely differnet than Karlsruhes. Stuttgart is on a hillside, Karlsruhe is in a swampy valley. Of course it is not allways that hot, however August is in Stuttgart *and* Karlsruhe always 35 to 40 degrees and in Karlsruhe itself is humidity is always high.
      When you have time make the test, take a hot day in Stuttgart, likely it is windy there and dry, take a train to KA and you get slammed into the face when you exit the train, its just a 45 minute ride :D

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    63. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      I guess it is more the other way around or not? Those having an aC claim it is impossible to live without it. Forgetting that their ancestors or the natives did fine without before they got invented/installed.
      I, and other posters, only pointed out that under similar conditions other nations don't have so much AC. Then the crowed started screaming: no no, the conditions can not be compared :D we are under far worth conditions than germany!
      Last poster was 2 times in Kaiserslautern and had a bad summer ... lol. Perhaps he could go there once when we have a hot summer there.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    64. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by chihowa · · Score: 1

      I agree about the misleading nature of the "average highs". It's an average of the daily high temperatures in a month (over several years?), but a series of high temperature days averaged with a series of low temperature days make it seem as though a string of very hot days is not typical.

      Anyway, you're spot on about the humidity. It's 35C here (in Denver) right now, but it doesn't feel that bad because of the 30% humidity. Sweat actually works here! That's a delight after living in St Louis, where sweating only makes you wet in addition to hot.

      I haven't been to Germany since I was a kid. Maybe I'll take you up on that offer!

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    65. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by tmosley · · Score: 1

      No, you are spreading the lies here, bucko. You are claiming that there is no group of people who decide who lives and who dies in social medicine, when it is clear that there is. The cognitive dissonance is so bad you are flipping out like a fundamentalist Christian claiming there is a missing link.

      The question is whether these groups exist, not whether they are right or wrong. Spectacular amount of doublethink around here. There is both no such thing as a death panel, AND the kid in the above story didn't deserve a new liver (implying the death panel made the right decision). fuckin' lulz

    66. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by tmosley · · Score: 1

      I think you are lying, or you don't know how to convert between F and C: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karlsruhe#Climate

      It says there that the average high in the hottest month of the year is 78F. Nowhere near 100F. Contrast this with Washington DC, where the average high in the hottest month is 89F. Your town is downright pleasant. Also, it probably isn't a swamp.

    67. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      No-one is claiming that it is impossible to live without AC. It is also not impossible to live without cars, without electricity, or without clean water - as our ancestors and natives did. But it's clearly far less convenient.

    68. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      As I said before I'm not familiar with the term "average high". So I use the absoluter high. It is regulary in August over 40Â centigradfe wich is: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=40+degree+centigrate+in+fahrenheit 104 fahrenheit.
      The link you show is wikipedia, so some random guys picked it from some random place. The data is likely from before the climate change :D anyway and outdated.
      We had here Augusts where every day was close to 40Â or above it ... I assume something like the average high in the table you linked is calculated over a few years. So it obviously also includes cold years.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    69. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Well, luckyly only the "Oberrhein Area" that is where Karlsruhe is, has this annoying climate. The rest of germany is not typically very humid when it is hot. 100 years ago this area even had malaria, pretty annoying.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    70. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by tmosley · · Score: 1

      Wait, what? You are from Germany and you don't know what an "average" is?

      I think we've been lied to about the superiority of European educational systems.

    71. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      An average is an average, but what is an average of highs, or an average of lows?
      If you don't get it: you are picking a random term which is not used here in europe. So it is hard to figure what exactly is ment.
      Hint: global warming will increase the average temperature by 2Â
      What exactly is that supposed to mean for your hometown?
      Is the temperature curve just shifted up by 2Â?
      Do you have +5Â in winter and +10Â in summer but -3Â in spring and -8Â in autumn?
      Sorry, average highs is nothing I ever have seen in a german publication regarding temperatures. And the main point stil remains: you claim basically it is never 40Â in August in my home town.
      Sorry, I live here and since 1993 at least we have a couple of days, a week or a whole month on this temperature.
      If you disagree, then you are simply wrong.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    72. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by Falconhell · · Score: 1

      No lies man, this is the way public health operates in Australia. There are no death panels, all that was just a lie spread by mindless teabaggers like yourself. My elderly parents get first class treatment for their many ailments. ANY treatment needed is given.You should stop watching Fox news and see the truth of all the flat out lies you right wing nutjobs spread.

    73. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by TheMathemagician · · Score: 1

      Thanks for all the comments. My question was more serious than trolling. I think the two key conclusions are that (a) US houses are built on the assumption of having permanent air-conditioning and (b) Americans are just used to having it. Much of the world has temperatures/humidity just as high with no air-conditioning and they don't all die en masse so I found the claims that it's necessary to save lives a little histrionic.

    74. Re:Air conditioning? Open a window. by Lotana · · Score: 1

      I also live in Australia and do tollerate tempetures over 40C. However, I am only able to do this because outback area is a desert with very low humidity. Just keep drinking and stay out of the sun.

      Compare it with US where the humidity is high: Even 38C is dangerous because the body has no natural facilities to bring the tempetures down. Sweat doesn't work if the surrounding air doesn't remove it! This situation is particularly deadly to the elderly.

  39. Because maintaining power grids is hard. by sidragon.net · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Seriously. Look at a map for any densely populated urban area, and consider the scale and complexity any utility provider must face. The problem is enormous and the adverse conditions affecting the utility are highly varied. Also consider that it makes no sense for these utility providers to retain standing armies of workers and equipment to react to rare events.

    People need to grow up, and understand that sometimes they will be left without the conveniences of modern life. It is incumbent upon each of us to be prepared for these difficult times when we might have to go a full 48 hours without being able to watch The Bachelorette.

    1. Re:Because maintaining power grids is hard. by geekoid · · Score: 1

      "Also consider that it makes no sense for these utility providers to retain standing armies of workers and equipment to react to rare events."
      why doesn't it?

      Also, it wouldn't be "Armies"

      "People need to grow up, "
      You need to grow up and stop making excuses. There is no reason not to have high expectation, and considering the response to these issues is getting worse over the last 25 years maybe something else is going on? like exec. being more focuses on bonuses then long term quality.

      we are talking about weeks, not 48 hours.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  40. Lack of a free Market by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In most municipalities there 1 or 2 government granted monopolies who serve the area with power. There is no incentive for those companies to provide more reliable service because there is no competition.

  41. good news! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    notenough power? now they have a reason to build more nuclear reactors, like in japan!

  42. In the USA, the power grid is Wal-Marted by gestalt_n_pepper · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Capitalism enforces ever rising levels of mediocrity. Like what's in Wal-Mart, every product or service is made to be *just* reliable enough to sell and beat the competition, if there is any. The power grid is *just* good enough so that no company will spend money to fix it. As for the actual physical grid itself, there's no significant competition.Thinking ahead to emergencies doesn't figure into this, and don't even start to discuss the national interest if it compromises profit somewhere. EMP anyone?

    --
    Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
    1. Re:In the USA, the power grid is Wal-Marted by tmosley · · Score: 0

      I'm sure you mean "socialism", not "capitalism", as you are talking about government granted monopolies.

      I love how socialists and communists blame all the failings of their crappy socialized institutions on capitalism.

    2. Re:In the USA, the power grid is Wal-Marted by Urban+Garlic · · Score: 1

      I'll leave it to you to explain how the communistic socialistic regulations created incentives for Pepco (regional utility in Montgomery County, MD, site of massive outages right now) to neglect maintenance.

      Remember to include the part where the regulators fined Pepco a million bucks last year, as punishment for his neglect of maintenance.

      Also make sure you talk about how the regulatory regime encourages the large dividends they paid to their shareholders.

      --
      2*3*3*3*3*11*251
    3. Re:In the USA, the power grid is Wal-Marted by gestalt_n_pepper · · Score: 1

      No. I meant capitalism. FYI, I wasn't claiming communism or socialism is "better." I'm describing a behavioral phenomenon.

      In fact, both capitalism and socialism are pretty lousy as methods of social organization, but nothing better has turned up yet and if it did, the originators of any better ideas would be hunted down and excluded from presidential campaigns.

      --
      Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
    4. Re:In the USA, the power grid is Wal-Marted by tmosley · · Score: 1

      Then you are just plain wrong, because utilities are socialist entities in the US. That is a fact. You can't blame capitalism for the failure of socialism, no matter what "behavioral phenomenon" you are "describing".

      Capitalism is a great method of social organization. It's just that we haven't had it for a hundred years. Just mixed markets masquerading as free markets here in the US.

    5. Re:In the USA, the power grid is Wal-Marted by geekoid · · Score: 1

      No, he means capitalism.

      And socialism is not communism. Don't confuse the two. I know who have been brained wash that the EVIL Communist are going to GET YOU with there socialist ways, but stop and think.

      Government infrastructure programs in the US have an excellent record.

      As all evidence points to:
      Having government infrastructure to support a market works best. Extreme either way is bad.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    6. Re:In the USA, the power grid is Wal-Marted by tmosley · · Score: 2

      Uhh, because the maintenance would have cost more than a million dollars, and they have a monopoly. If there were another energy company that had well maintained/buried lines, you can bet everyone would be switching to them right now, and Pepco would be out of business. But they aren't, because the government won't let anyone else into their space.

      The government requires that corporations act in the best interest of their shareholders lest they be vulnerable to shareholder lawsuits. It forces corporate boards to do anything and everything, including violating the law, to get the benefit for their shareholders. It is institutionalized sociopathy. Fascism incarnate.

    7. Re:In the USA, the power grid is Wal-Marted by tmosley · · Score: 0

      Why not, worked out so well in this case.

      And even if he meant capitalism, that is flat out wrong. You and he are twisting some very rigorously defined terms to try to force the facts to fit your world view. It would be funny if it weren't so destructive.

    8. Re:In the USA, the power grid is Wal-Marted by gestalt_n_pepper · · Score: 1

      Interesting. You've described the main flaw in capitalism, but you don't see it. The most profitable thing that self-interested capitalists can do is to purchase the government, after which capitalism ceases and cronyism becomes the rule of law. This has, indeed, been going on for over a century in the USA, and ha become a bit more blatant of late.

      I'm curious though, what makes you think that power companies in Virginia, specifically Dominion Resources Inc is a "socialist entity." I expect that they might beg to differ.

      --
      Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
    9. Re:In the USA, the power grid is Wal-Marted by tmosley · · Score: 1

      What you don't get is that when a company buys the government, YOU DON'T HAVE CAPITALISM ANYMORE. It's like saying that cleanliness is bad because clean things can become dirty. It's not like there are a bunch of different possible economic systems here. Either a person owns what he produces, or he doesn't, or something in between. If you are going to talk about how bad the pigsty that we are living in is, don't say that it is bad because it is clean, say it is bad because it is dirty! We need to go back to being clean! We need to break the ties that bind corporations to the government. The government needs to be removed from the economy beyond its original mandate (negotiation of treaties with foreign nations, and regulation of commerce between the states).

      All monopoly utilities are socialist because they have been granted a monopoly by the government. This is by definition NOT CAPITALISM. There is no market, there is no competition, there is no threat, and there is a totally captive "customer" base. If you want electricity, you HAVE to buy it from these people. If you try to sell some yourself, men with guns will come and take you away and put you in a box. They will shoot you if you resist. Sure, they might start with letters telling you you aren't allowed to sell electricity, but if you continue, that is exactly what will happen.

    10. Re:In the USA, the power grid is Wal-Marted by Urban+Garlic · · Score: 1

      That's a surprising answer, since I assumed you were opposed to regulation -- sorry if I misjudged your intent. Obviously, one direction one could go is to increase the oversight and penalties, which would serve to encourage maintenance. It would also let them off the hook with their shareholders -- "we wanted to skimp on maintenance to pay your dividends, but were unable to, due to regulatory constraints."

      It's certainly true that the government enforces Pepco's regional monopoly, but I think there are serious technical issues associated with relaxing this -- either Pepco has to be forced to allow other utilities' revenue power to flow over their lines (more, or at least different, legislation and regulation required for that), or somebody has to pay for duplicate or triplicate infrastructure. It's largely because of these constraints that electric power generation and distribution was consolidated and regulated in the first place, of course.

      --
      2*3*3*3*3*11*251
    11. Re:In the USA, the power grid is Wal-Marted by tmosley · · Score: 1

      Well, that was their excuse, in any event.

      In my personal opinion, the producers of electricity and the owners of the lines should be different people. A person can contract with anyone they want in order to get their electricity, and all the suppliers pay the owners of the transmission lines for their use. In this way, people would be free to choose the source of their electricity, and since the grid owner has fewer customers, those customers would have more leverage to force them to upgrade their lines and do maintenance.

      If competition had been allowed from the start, you would probably have a choice of getting your energy from far away via AC lines or nearby with DC lines. We might have seen more research into wireless transmission, residential scale natural gas plants, solar panel lease plans, and other neat things. Sadly, what we would up with was a set of monopolies that did nothing but try to maintain their business model. No innovation. No improvements. No new technologies. This is the nature of regulation.

      If you apply more regulation to try to force a monopoly to do what you want, you will just find that your regulator is driving around in cars he can't afford, and taking vacations at his second home in some sunny paradise. If you crack down on the regulators, they will do the same to those in charge of the investigations. It is called regulatory capture, and it is an unstoppable force in systems run by humans (rather than angels). Better to utilize free market regulation by allowing competition. That is not only much more likely to actually work, it is free! You don't have to stretch your budget to hire more regulators, or try to pay more to prevent corruption. They just do what the market forces them to do, and if they can't make it, then those who are better able will take their place.

    12. Re:In the USA, the power grid is Wal-Marted by Beeftopia · · Score: 1

      In economic theory, there is such a beast as the "Natural Monopoly." The reason it's a natural monopoly is because the barriers to entry are extremely high. Laying railroad track, laying power infrastructure - these have very high costs. So utilities are a natural monopoly.

      Monopolies are typically bad because they allow extremely extractive costs to be imposed, instead of competitive costs. This reduces the benefit to the society which are the customers of the natural monopoly.

      The whole point of civilization and society is for all members to get a better deal, not for merely maintaining or espousing a principle. In the case of utilities, it makes sense to leave it as a monopoly and have massive regulation on it.

      Utility companies have found a way around it and now many if not most are also energy trading companies. Basically, they've gone Wall Street, becoming trading/betting companies.

      We've run these experiments. Trying to increase the wealth of a society through novelty and innovation is good. But ONCE IT FAILS, it's time to end the experiment and institute the most beneficial system the historical experimental data supports.

    13. Re:In the USA, the power grid is Wal-Marted by athenaprime · · Score: 1

      The pinnacle predator of Capitalism is achieving 100% profit with 0% cost. In short, the most efficient way for me to become the top capitalist is to take all your stuff. The easiest way for me to get away with that is to make it legal for me to take all your stuff, or remove the teeth of any legal system that might infringe upon my ability to take all your stuff. Capitalism is an awful method of social organization, unless you're the guy for whom it's legal to take everyone else's stuff.

  43. USA ROOLZ DOOD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    we got moar bettar elextricitah than iraq do so let freedom ring dood

  44. Infrastructure Cheapskates by pesho · · Score: 2

    Because quick profits and millisecond gains are the king in US. The utilities are trying to save both on infrastructure and maintenance. Having the power lines been buried, like in pretty much every first world country, they would have had a lot less problems from a little wind. I am pretty sure that the next post would be how this is too expensive because of the 'low' population density and the 'rural' populations and I call this complete bollocks. The utility poles are as prevalent in urban areas as they are out in the country. So, you saved on infrastructure and this is probably OK, but then you need to maintain it. And this means keeping the trees away from the poles, not overloading the wooden poles to the point where a little wind will snap them and replacing them before they rot completely away. Now this makes the cheap infrastructure a lot more expensive, unless you skip on the maintenance, which is what most utilities cheerfully do. This is by no means the only utilities fault. Any investment cost will need to be passed to the consumers and they will have none of it.

  45. Taxes and other reasons by muridae · · Score: 1

    It is a major expense to disaster proof all utilities, and doing so in a way that would prevent damage against 100-year high winds costs a ton. Would you pay double the taxes on electricity for 10 years to protect against something that statistically shouldn't happen again in your life time?

    Combine that with insane amounts of damage. My electricity comes through underground wires in one direction, and that's why I still had power sunday. Sunday night, though, the wind took out more substations, and snaped a live line on the other side of the property. And with that, power was gone. It wasn't just the snapped line, but the trees that pulled up underground cables when they fell; it isn't just a single line broken, but 10s of breaks just to restore power to a few people. And the areas hit aren't all dense urban areas, but at least here it is lots of power lost in rural farms.

    1. Re:Taxes and other reasons by vlm · · Score: 1

      the trees that pulled up underground cables when they fell

      That is the one line summary of why you do not want buried lines in a wide scale disaster scenario.

      Aerial repair would have been one dude, one truck, and 15 minutes (well, maybe 30 depending on length of run, etc). Its a heck of a lot easier to do aerial work with two bucket trucks instead of one guy with a ladder, but it can be done. Two guys with buckets can do more in 5 minutes than one guy with a ladder can do in 30 minutes, and the bucket guys are going to be limited more by mental than physical exhaustion.

      Buried repair is going to be an entire team involving excavator machines, maybe a bulldozer, maybe a directional boring machine depending on landscape, several days minimum for a large team of workers. Also you pretty much need a team to lay heavy buried cable but one (admittedly strong) dude can do aerial by himself.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    2. Re:Taxes and other reasons by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Actually it would e a great government infrastructure program. Relying on the individual electrical system to do it would be follow.

      And yes, it would come from taxes, and yes I would be fine with paying the slight tax increase.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    3. Re:Taxes and other reasons by geekoid · · Score: 1

      No, its a one line summary of why you want to maintain proper controls on the system
      .
      New Orleans had much of their water lines ripped up because they didn't maintain the infrastructure properly. Maybe they could put all the water lines above ground?

      "Buried repair is going to be an entire team involving excavator machines,"
      you seem to miss the point that there would be a lot less of it.

      And we do it now with other utilities. as well.

      " Also you pretty much need a team to lay heavy buried cable but one (admittedly strong) dude can do aerial by himself."
      Not likely, and not with any really repetition or practicality.
      OTOH, on guy with a shovel could fix below ground utilities. IN fact, it would be easier then hanging cable. Not practical, but neither is your example.

      As a bonus, you don't have downed power lines that could injure or kill someone.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    4. Re:Taxes and other reasons by vlm · · Score: 1

      you seem to miss the point that there would be a lot less of it

      We will have to just agree to disagree. I think if you yank a tree out of the ground, the damage to cables run thru the roots will be just as bad a cables run thru the branches. Maybe somewhat fewer trees will be completely ripped out of the ground, but if it takes 10 times longer to fix underground...

      As a bonus, you don't have downed power lines that could injure or kill someone.

      Ground currents are a pretty serious danger with underground lines. Dirt has a high enough resistance to get a pretty impressive voltage drop over a couple feet yet a low enough resistance to transmit the 50 or so mA it takes to kill. I would suggest wearing rubber soled tennis shoes around a underground power accident until it gets fixed. Gardening inadvisable, barefoot inadvisable..

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
  46. Doing it on the cheap by plopez · · Score: 1

    That's what it comes down to. DO it as cheaply as possible damn the consequences. After all the utilities don't have to pay the true cost of outages, the consumer does. This is called "externalized costs", a concept which makes even the most conservative Economist shudder because it means market forces break down.

    --
    putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
  47. Been without power since 2am on the 30th by Howard+Beale · · Score: 1

    in southern New Jersey. Cell phone service seems back to normal as of late Monday. Power isn't expected to be back until the 6th, don't know about cable/internet. Thankfully I purchased a generator after Hurricane Irene last year - were without power/cable/internet for two days after that. Generator will cover a good bit of our needs, just need to make sure we don't overload it - as my wife did this morning. While I agree that the local utilities DON'T do enough preventative maintenance to trim back trees, etc., the amount of trees that look like they literally exploded is amazing. We were lucky and only had minor damage in our neighborhood, my parent's street looks like a war zone - but they live in a more developed town and have their utilities all restored.

  48. Two Birds with One Stone by erdos-bacon+sandwich · · Score: 1

    1) Burying the residential electrical lines in the Northeast is a large infrastructure project that must be done. 2) Unemployment is high Seems like a good opportunity for the Government to put unemployed folks to work. Of course it will cost money. Pay for it with a temporary utility surcharge for consumers, and increase in corporate taxes on the utility companies.

    1. Re:Two Birds with One Stone by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Historically in the US the best way to do that is with a government infrastructure program.
      However, since there is a Dem. in office, infrastructure improvements are called 'socialism' and kill jobs.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  49. digging up things... Re:For comparison... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why does the US still string them up on poles, almost a century later? Weird...

    what do you do when your trencher hits other buried objects? I agree -- new construction should have all services buried -- just makes sense... but...

    Didn't the new enterprise show have discussions about a giant trench that was made by a misunderstood alien race? It didn't go so well for the trenchers in that case.

  50. infrastructure investment: by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    that is evil socialism, collectivist action

    a real captain of industry, which everyone should strive to be, builds their own electric lines, transformers, bridges, power plants, automobile factories, etc, and doesn't reply on charity from others, which only destroys character

    besides, we privatize things like power plants and electric utilities, because capitalism is magic fairy dust that solves all problems

    nevermind that competing against an entrenched player with a network effect requires huge upfront costs that won't realize a return for over a decade, and therefore, no one in their right mind competes. and that in the meantime, a monopoly or oligarchy exists without any effective competition. and there is no market pressure to respond to customer's needs, since they have no where else to turn, they are captive

    no, we still talk about the magic of free markets, even though all we have created is rent seeking parasites that drain capital to middlemen and executives who offer nothing in return. no, the real problem is government, you see

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:infrastructure investment: by dkleinsc · · Score: 1

      Nah, a *real* captain of industry would bribe / threaten the politicians into providing public funding to build electric lines, transformers, etc, and then charge up the wazoo for everyone to use it. And if anything goes wrong, just say that the subsidies weren't high enough,so to do anything to fix it the rates will have to go up.

      Anything else is socialism.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
  51. Lack of air conditioning mostly != emergency by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Lack of air conditioning? Oh, boo hoo. Yes, for people with serious health problems it is a big concern, but for everyone else it is not a big deal. Try living in the northern US or Canada in the wintertime after a big storm. A power outage of more than 24 hours is a genuine emergency because people could eventually get hypothermia, and the household pipes start freezing and bursting, flooding basements and furnace systems even when the power does come back on. Last time there was a big winter storm here (90cm/3 feet of snow in 24 hours), the power was out for about 20 hours and things were getting pretty desperate. I still remember everybody barbecuing their food out in their driveways in the middle of winter, and many of the grocery stores were running short on supplies because transportation of food was limited. But if you want really bad in terms of effect on the power system, there's always the 1998 ice storm for comparison.

    On the plus side, the electricity companies do have good reciprocal agreements in terms of bringing in staff from surrounding areas in the event of an emergency. They'll pull together and get the job done as soon as they can. Longer-term, yes, people should be asking about investment to "harden" the system against damage, but it will inevitably cost more money, and most people are too cheap to commit to that, especially without guarantees from the power companies that the increased fees would be put to improvements.

  52. How much you wanna bet... by bbbaldie · · Score: 1

    ...the same press that roasted Bush over Katrina won't have a thing to say about Obama now?

    1. Re:How much you wanna bet... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Since Obama didn't put off a response, and since homeland security isn't intentionally creating more delays, Why would anyone blame Obama?

      Bush wasn't blamed for Katrina, the was blamed for is lack of response.

      What is it with you people and your persecution complex?

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:How much you wanna bet... by bbbaldie · · Score: 1

      My people? Who the **** are YOU?

  53. An ounce of prevention... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The last longer power outages in our block were predictable. Someone driving around checking on dangers to power lines (trees, damaged masts etc) and arranging for some preventative maintenance got to be cheaper than hauling in out of state support when the weather hits.

  54. Bury the lines!! by FridayBob · · Score: 1

    My grandfather, a Dutch electrical engineer who was responsible for setting up most of the electrical and gas infrastructure in North-Holland shortly before and after WWII, visited to the US in the 1950s and was astonished to see all of the electrical lines hanging from poles above ground. In his view, this was so crazy.

    Sure, the up-front cost of burying all of the electrical lines in Europe from the get-go was expensive, but everybody realized that it would soon pay off. Not so in the United States: apparently, they just wanted their electrical infrastructure as fast and for as little money as possible. Consequently, Americans have been paying a high price for that mistake ever since. It's really a tax on stupidity, only they've been living with it for so long that they've come to believe that it's perfectly reasonable and acceptable.

    On the other hand, if the government (incl. State and local ones) were to finally make the decision to bury all of their power and communications lines (except for long-distance high-voltage), then not only would their children and grand-children etc. be very grateful, it would also create lots of jobs now and therefore be a much needed boost for the economy.

    1. Re:Bury the lines!! by MikeMo · · Score: 1

      Don't forget that the cost of wiring Holland, or even Europe, is a hell of a lot less than the cost of wiring the U.S.. That makes it a lot easier to plan ahead. :)

    2. Re:Bury the lines!! by FridayBob · · Score: 1

      Don't forget that the cost of wiring Holland, or even Europe, is a hell of a lot less than the cost of wiring the U.S.. That makes it a lot easier to plan ahead. :)

      Of course it's more expensive in total to bury all the lines in a big country as opposed to a small one, but the problem is exactly the same (and the per capita costs about equal) when only individual grids, cities and miles of cable are considered.

      Also, I can imagine that the issue might be raised of individual American cities tending to be more spread out over larger areas than European cities, which raises the cost per electrical/telecom connection. This is true, but it does not make any difference to my point, because the longer each individual connection becomes, the more likely it is to suffer from damage. So, if people want to live further apart, the cost of electrical/telecom connectivity will go up accordingly, but in the long term it still makes more economic sense to pay the up-front cost of burying the cables.

    3. Re:Bury the lines!! by MikeMo · · Score: 1

      Oh, I agree with all that. :) By the way, in general, new stuff is buried. Some high-tension stuff, routes that are a thousand miles, are still strung up on towers, but these are not the ones that fall down in storms. Another exception would be if you build a house miles out in the middle of nowhere all by yourself - you're likely to get your power on poles. Everything else new is going underground these days. It's been that way for quite a while, but there is still a lot of older stuff on poles.

      Remember that these techniques "grew up" out of stringing telegraph lines across the continent. Doing it differently then would have been impossible, and hanging wires on poles just became the way these things were done out of habit and history.

    4. Re:Bury the lines!! by FridayBob · · Score: 1

      ... in general, new stuff is buried.

      That's good to hear, but the problem is all the legacy stuff. That's why so many people in the US are currently without power.

      Some high-tension stuff, routes that are a thousand miles, are still strung up on towers, but these are not the ones that fall down in storms.

      AFAIK, electrical pylons are used all over the world for the long-distance transmission of electricity using high-voltage. Although an eye-sore, this appears to be the most economical solution to the problem. These towers are so tall and strong that, aside from the odd collision with a balloon, or a small aircraft, nothing much seems to affect them.

      Another exception would be if you build a house miles out in the middle of nowhere all by yourself - you're likely to get your power on poles.

      To a degree these kind of long distance connections should be (and probably are) covered by the standard connection fee, but I imagine that there is always a limit, especially in such a big country.

      Remember that these techniques "grew up" out of stringing telegraph lines across the continent. Doing it differently then would have been impossible, and hanging wires on poles just became the way these things were done out of habit and history.

      Interesting.

    5. Re:Bury the lines!! by bitingduck · · Score: 1

      My grandfather, a Dutch electrical engineer who was responsible for setting up most of the electrical and gas infrastructure in North-Holland shortly before and after WWII, ...

      Sure, the up-front cost of burying all of the electrical lines in Europe from the get-go was expensive, but everybody realized that it would soon pay off.

      Much of Europe had to start from scratch after the war, so burying the lines was something that could be done alongside a lot of other construction. The US has had its infrastructure grow steadily (and often haphazardly) without the resetting effect of having large swaths severely damaged or destroyed at the level of WWII. To go back and bury power lines in areas that are already fully developed is much more expensive than during new construction or reconstruction. A great deal of new construction in the US does have buried lines. But as noted elsewhere in the responses here, buried lines come with their own sets of problems and difficulties of repair.

    6. Re:Bury the lines!! by russotto · · Score: 1

      AFAIK, electrical pylons are used all over the world for the long-distance transmission of electricity using high-voltage. Although an eye-sore, this appears to be the most economical solution to the problem. These towers are so tall and strong that, aside from the odd collision with a balloon, or a small aircraft, nothing much seems to affect them.

      I'm afraid that's not true. Tornadoes destroy them pretty regularly. Blizzards wreck them occasionally. The Montreal ice storm of 1998 coated many with ice and they collapsed under the weight. And this storm took some down too.

  55. Score: 5 So Right! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is exactly the issue.

    It's a monumental job. It's a monumental cost. It takes time.

    People(idiots) fail to plan and feel that 100% uptime is a human right. But, bitching is free!

  56. Power service is not be a tree trimming service by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So wait, let me try to figure the logic here:

    1.. We complain about how expensive new housing is that the developers build.
    2. And we demand, either directly or through our county governments, that trees be planted along right of ways.
    3. When the power goes out, we blame the power company.

    Those right of ways exist because of statement #1, because we won't pay for the developer to bury those lines.

    Another thing I don't understand is why aren't the owners of the land on which the trees grow that interfere with the power lines held to account if they don't trim their trees? Why is this suddenly the power company's job? Last I checked, I paid for power, not tree trimming. You know, personal responsibility and all that.

    1. Re:Power service is not be a tree trimming service by PPH · · Score: 1

      Another thing I don't understand is why aren't the owners of the land on which the trees grow that interfere with the power lines held to account if they don't trim their trees? Why is this suddenly the power company's job?

      We don't want property owners cutting trees close to overhead lines. You think outages are bad now? You haven't seen anything yet until Joe weekend lumberjack gets out his new chainsaw.

      At any rate, imposing this requirement on property owners would impose a maintenance cost on them. They shouldn't be responsible for system costs, particularly in the case of an investor owned (for profit) utility.

      System maintenance is part of the power companies job. The problem is that this is an easily deferred cost. Particularly when a utility manager is trying to fluff up his/her resume. By the time this comes back to bite the utility, they have moved on and Rule #1 in corporate America is never to look back for the root cause of a problem.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  57. Future thinking by MikeMo · · Score: 1

    Because most Americans (most people?) are not willing to "pay it forward", to invest in the future. They have a hard time imagining that something that has not happened to them might happen in the future. "I've done this lots of times, nothing ever happens." All they want is the cheapest whatever. Hence Walmart.

  58. Electric company not Gmmt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I am a member of a electric coop and there is no WAY we are going to subsidize a project of that magnitude. We will have to get by with replacing the broken sticks and go without power every now and then.

    We used to be rural back in the 30s -- and somehow the coop has managed to thrive -- by being cheap? :) They (some other electric co) just built a new coal-burner a few years back -- that my coop buys electricity from... oh oh... can you say pending rate hike -- when the benevolent gmmt shuts it down to save our lungs... ?

    NO RATE HIKE! Keep our pretty-good infrastructure! YaY for Cheap and unreliable electricity! It beats the other kind.

  59. Potato - Tomato by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

    Utilities don't have enough staff to handle severe-storm outages – the expense would send rates soaring ...

    Or profits plummeting.

    --
    It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
  60. polytricks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Which is it?

    Gin grich: 'Mild Taste of What Electromagnetic Pulse Attack Would Do'...
    AP: THIS SUMMER 'IS WHAT GLOBAL WARMING LOOKS LIKE'

    Terrorist Fear Porn and crap laws destruction of the Constitution
    UN/Agenda21/IPCC fear porn and crap laws destruction of the Constitution

    Fuck Newt Gingrich and his treason
    Fuck that IPCC pw3nd AP bitch with no feedback loop

  61. The Myth of Natural Monopoly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    At one point in history, companies selling electric power were not granted local monopolies by governments. Established and uncompetitive companies asked the government for monopolies. Some cities made this move. Others did not. Those with competing power companies had lower prices for the same product, despite duplicate infrastructure. It isn't right to use badges and guns to hurt harmless people who want to compete to sell power. Doing so increases prices and decreases quality. You can find more information here: http://mises.org/daily/5266

  62. Re:Union mentality by WillAdams · · Score: 1

    If companies are being ``bled dry'', why is it that wages as a percentage of GDP peaked in 1972 and has been declining ever since, while corporate profits and payments to shareholders has been steadily increasing since then?

    --
    Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
  63. Since future disaster is a given by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Since future disaster is a given, why not start now on a program to bury lines every year, year after year, with smart prioritization? The solution is known, the problem is identified, and all it takes is a management decision to go from frustration the solution is time consuming and expensive, to a "journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step".

    It also shows with great clarity that high priority shovel ready projects were forsaken in the Obama Pelosi Reid stimulus spending in favor of public employee unions, and pork and earmarks added to the text of the bill so they were no longer technically earmarks and pork as defined. But practically the exact same thing, on a huge $866B a year for 5 years scale (continuing resolutions).

    JJ

  64. Dem Dam Lines! by garyoa1 · · Score: 1

    Interesting that no one screams "save the trees" "bury the lines". Not to mention the poles are soaked in creosote so that makes them toxic waste.

    At any rate, yes it's expensive to bury lines. But I always wondered why they'll dig up a road to put in new sewer lines or gas or whatever, yet no one thinks of burying power lines while it's dug up.

    --
    Wuddooeyeno? IITYWYBMAD? Like nuts? eclecticallyincorrect.com
  65. haha, no. by geekoid · · Score: 1

    " Utilities don't have enough staff to handle severe-storm outages – the expense would send rates soaring –"

    No, they managed that level of staffing for years, but then started cutting because they realized that can make more money (exec. bonus) and they can blame the weather.

    Now that are setting the stage for a price hike. IN which they will hire more people, and then let them go about 3 CEOs. later.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  66. Too easy by Sparticus789 · · Score: 1

    2000 W inverter - $150
    Deep-cycle marine battery w/ plastic case - $125
    Copper wiring - $50
    Main battery isolater - $30
    100 foot extension cord - $40

    Install into vehicle. Isolate main battery from rear battery and inverter with the circuit breaker. Run extension cord into house. Able to power any home electronics you have, and can run an old refrigerator while the vehicle is running. Use only in case of emergency.

    --
    sudo make me a sandwich
  67. extensive storm damage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I live in the path of the storm in Illinois. The damage is astounding- the worst I've seen 87. on every block trees up to 4 feet in diameter were rippled right out of the ground.

    Were still w/out power. I'd say more but offsetting from a cell phone aux

  68. Also the Drunken BackHoe Problem by RobertLTux · · Score: 1

    aka "Failed to CALL BEFORE YOU DIG" problem

    with everything buried you run into problems where somebody decides to not CBYD and then puts his Backhoe across the line(s)

    (maps are fictional and you always underestimate the power of a BackHoe run by a half drunk worker)

    --
    Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
    1. Re:Also the Drunken BackHoe Problem by guruevi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But the person that digs would have to pay the damages, not the end-user. And that problem exists with fiber too and although a frequent occurrence, it doesn't necessarily take the whole US Internet out or even the Internet for a city.

      The problem is multi-fold
      - The government put the cables in a long time ago, sometimes during periods where certain products were scarce (usually because of war) and thus sub-par elements were used (aluminum or steel)
      - Privatized utilities got the wiring for free on the promise that they would expand and renew and have been collecting money but not investing it
      - No government oversight for the privatized utilities to keep on their promise so things have not been inspected for years
      - Patchwork as-needed repairs causing unnecessary losses and dependencies
      - Increases in demand, decreases in classic resistive demands
      - Most of the heaviest things (motors, airco) in homes still run on 110V even though 220V has been available in most homes but most homes haven't been wired correctly for 220V
      - Now that the system is on the brink of collapse, the utilities go with outstretched hand back to the government in order to have the taxpayer pay for it regardless

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    2. Re:Also the Drunken BackHoe Problem by compro01 · · Score: 1

      As opposed the guy with the over-tall load (like said backhoe) knocking down an overhead line.

      6 vs. half-dozen. You're not going to protect against stupid. At least the underground line is better protected against weather.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    3. Re:Also the Drunken BackHoe Problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "But the person that digs would have to pay the damages, not the end-user."

      There this thing that most companies do called passing the costs on to someone else, the End-User WILL be paying though higher rates.

      "Most of the heaviest things (motors, airco) in homes still run on 110V even though 220V has been available in most homes but most homes haven't been wired correctly for 220V"

      Unless you are talking small window A/C units Anything big that's electric (stoves,hw heater, ac/heat) IS 220V throughout the US (i don't think you can even buy a custom one that's not 215-240V only. (at least not one that passes inspection) only refrigerators/microwaves use 110V and most new ones are dual/auto-sensing now. (and gas versions on these appliances usually don't have need for eletric supply or only need it for control circuitry and not the motors/heating elements (both my hw heaters don't have a power outlet)

      Everything else is spot on and most people don't know/remember who "originally" paid for the infrastructure before the govt. handed over 100+ year contracts over to the utility/telecom companies.

    4. Re:Also the Drunken BackHoe Problem by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Most of the heaviest things (motors, airco) in homes still run on 110V even though 220V has been available in most homes but most homes haven't been wired correctly for 220V

      No, they don't. HVAC, ranges, ovens, clothes dryers, hot water heating tanks (if electric), are always 220V in American homes. Every house in America is wired with 220V, and pretty much always has been. The 110V is derived from the 220V (line-to-line) by splitting it with a neutral in the electric panel.

    5. Re:Also the Drunken BackHoe Problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wrong on nearly every count.

      Private utilities installed nearly all the power lines in the US. Aluminum wire is almost always used because copper is WAY to expensive for that. Copper is very rare in any power distro system outside of VERY old installations.
      Government oversight is still very much in place for the companies who maintain the lines.
      The power on the lines is typically 7200 volts or 12,500 volts between the poles in a residential neighborhood. Our 120v vs 240v system have no great impact on overall power distribution. And I have no idea what you even mean by "not wired correctly for 220v" And most A/C units use 240, excluding small window type A/C.

      The problem is that the US is a vast nation with enormous rural areas where is is totally uneconomical to buy the millions of miles of lines required.

      New development tends to be fed by underground lines. But retrofitting something that works 99.999% of the time is a hard sell.

    6. Re:Also the Drunken BackHoe Problem by tylernt · · Score: 1

      - The government put the cables in a long time ago, sometimes during periods where certain products were scarce (usually because of war) and thus sub-par elements were used (aluminum or steel)

      Aluminum isn't sub-par for electrical distribution, it's standard. The special aluminum alloy that's used is durable yet lightweight. And it sure ain't cheap (just go look at feeder wire prices)!

      Increases in demand, decreases in classic resistive demands

      Except for tankless water heaters, per-user electric demand has actually gone down in recent decades. Energy star appliances, EER improvements in A/C, compact fluorescent and LED lighting... the only thing that's increased is the number of electric users.

      - Most of the heaviest things (motors, airco) in homes still run on 110V even though 220V has been available in most homes

      Er, no. Only window air conditioners are 120V -- whole-house A/C is 240V, as are electric dryers and electric ranges/stoves/ovens. Not many motors in a residence except for low-wattage fans that 240V would be overkill for anyway.

      but most homes haven't been wired correctly for 220V

      What? Strict residential wiring codes have been in place for decades, what specifically is incorrect about them?

      --
      DRM 'manages access' in the same way that a prison 'manages freedom'
  69. Re:We're pretty dense here in the Washington D.C. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Understatement of the year.

  70. Mod parent up. by bussdriver · · Score: 1

    Exactly. Why did I lose my job to China? Hey, lets make ourselves feel better (momentarily) and go shopping at Walmart and a while later throw away the stuff we bought.

  71. smaller distributed power plants by rockytopchip · · Score: 2

    The solution is obvious, move to smaller distributed power plants. The limit as x goes to infinity would of course be no power grid, everyone has their own power generating capacity.

    1. Re:smaller distributed power plants by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 1

      Also known as solar panels on every roof and batteries in every basement. It COULD be done. It's not even a technical problem. It's purely a financial problem. Put together the right financing company and get rich.

  72. Above-Ground Is Superior For Cost & Repair by littlewink · · Score: 1

    Below-ground installation is more costly to install and repair. It is more secure against wind damage.

    But wind damage occurs infrequently and above-ground wind damage can be quickly repaired: all components are visible, easily evaluated visually and no digging is required. Parts are less inexpensive than those for below-ground.

    In contrast, below-ground is a costly PITA when _flooding_ occurs. Repairs cannot begin until flood waters subside and the water table goes down..

    Demand for below-ground installation is predominantly driven by homeowners concerned that poles and lines mar the appearance of their neighborhood.

    1. Re:Above-Ground Is Superior For Cost & Repair by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      And burried cables get torn up by construction. There was one construction job (sewer/water) that broke telephone cables at a rate greater than one cable cut per day (not line, cable). Last I heard, the suit from the phone company was still ongoing.

      But everything I've seen from reliability comparisons is that buried is more relaible, and that's why homeowners like it, not just the removal of the poles (which most remained when they buried them in my neighborhood because they had all the streetlights on them).

  73. Where do I begin.... by bwohlgemuth · · Score: 1

    As a telecom employee, I'm getting a kick out of these....nevermind. Anyhow, the process for burying lines is pretty straightforward. Look at any relatively new subdivision or business district. Do you see any poles? Probably not. Because most utilities WANT to bury lines. It's easier and looks better and most governments now request/mandate burying lines. Now, try to do that in an older neighborhood. With water/sewer/gas/fiber/copper/old steam pipes/etc. Try getting locates done in a busy older neighborhood. Oh, and in order to bury you are going to have to give some yard space to put in a ped. Watch people flip out as their front yards are shredded by boring machines (if they are lucky....) or that now there's going to be a slew of pads in their lilac bushes.

    --
    Flamebait .sig for sale, low mileage, one owner only.
    Serious inquiries only.
    1. Re:Where do I begin.... by Animats · · Score: 1

      now there's going to be a slew of pads in their lilac bushes.

      That's a suburban problem. In urban areas, infrastructure equipment is installed in underground vaults, basements, tunnels, and leased space in buildings. In rural areas, infrastructure is installed on small plots of leased or purchased land.

      In denser parts of suburbia, there's no good place to put the stuff. People bitch if a big green box has to go in their yard. (And, between the cell, cable, and phone industries, there are a lot more big boxes to place than there used to be.)

      I'm just outside a city line. At the end of my driveway is 1) an AT&T underground controlled environment vault the size of a shipping container, with fans, A/C, and a backup generator, 2) a transformer enclosure with about 3 square meters of pad, 3) a power pole with a high voltage disconnect switch, and 4) an underground sewerage lift station with an above-ground control and metering pedestal. If I could get a water pressure booster station and a cell site, life would be complete.

  74. One factor: Trees still lying across roads by shoppa · · Score: 1

    This AM (four days after the storm), there are still giant trees lying across major roads.

    This might be why the power isn't back on everywhere.

    In several cases, homeowners were out Saturday and Sunday clearing away trees from state highways.

    In at least a couple cases, trees have been removed and Pepco is starting to drill holes to put in new utility poles where the utility poles were snapped off.

    1. Re:One factor: Trees still lying across roads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Buy a chainsaw = free firewood to heat your house in winter!!

      Or power your wood-burning electric generator

  75. confluence of effects by AB3A · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I live in central Maryland. There is more to this than just a Derecho. We get every two to three years. They're not unheard of.

    We had a mild winter and a cool spring. The winter did not have any significant snow or ice. So weak tree limbs didn't come down. There weren't many significant thunderstorms in the spring either, so no significant dead wood fell because of that. Here we are in early summer, and we get the first major storm of the season and all that weak and dying wood that hasn't been cleared out of the trees comes down at once. In many cases it takes the whole damned tree down. This wouldn't have been a big deal if it had been spread over a few storms here and there, but instead it happened all at once.

    In so many ways, this was a perfect storm...

    --
    Nearly fifty percent of all graduates come from the bottom half of the class!
    1. Re:confluence of effects by mcmonkey · · Score: 1

      I live in central Maryland. There is more to this than just a Derecho. We get every two to three years. They're not unheard of.

      WTF are you talking about? "Derecho?

    2. Re:confluence of effects by AB3A · · Score: 1

      http://blog.aopa.org/blog/?p=3729

      Effectively this is a storm with nearly hurricane force winds but no rotation. I'm a weather Nerd too.

      --
      Nearly fifty percent of all graduates come from the bottom half of the class!
    3. Re:confluence of effects by Beeftopia · · Score: 1

      Yep. A "derecho" : http://www.spc.noaa.gov/misc/AbtDerechos/derechofacts.htm

      It's a weather phenomenon.

  76. As long as we're making fun of conservatives... by wisebabo · · Score: 1

    So, how many of the following beliefs do YOU share?

    Creationism
    No such thing as (human caused) global warming
    Birthers
    Saddam Hussein had WMDs and worked with Al Queda (believe it or not, a lot of Americans still think this, especially Fox viewers)
    George W. Bush was the right person to vote for the first time
    George W. Bush was the right person to vote for the second time
    Sarah Palin is an intelligent, thoughtful person worthy of the highest offices in the land
    Being "elite" (definition: the best at anything) is bad
    Deficit spending is bad in a recession (unfortunately the Europeans seem to really think this)
    Teaching students critical thinking is a bad thing (well at least in Texas)

    I could go on and on (unfortunately) but you get the point. I would imagine there is a high correlation between these beliefs, right or wrong. If you're not embarrassed by them, why mod me down? Anyway, may I add one last contentious point that may or may not fit this demographic?

    These people are Apple haters.

    1. Re:As long as we're making fun of conservatives... by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      I believe in none of those except the second to last, at which I admit my utter ignorance of the matter and cede all judgement to more informed experts.

    2. Re:As long as we're making fun of conservatives... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, how many of the following beliefs do YOU share?

      Creationism - Nope

      No such thing as (human caused) global warming - it's not an true/false question, but humans might contribute some

      Birthers - tweaking the noses of libs is always fun, kinda like them saying Bush dodged the draft or went AWOL

      Saddam Hussein had WMDs and worked with Al Queda (believe it or not, a lot of Americans still think this, especially Fox viewers) - he used WMDs against the Kurds, he worked with the PLO and Hamas rather than Al Qaeda

      George W. Bush was the right person to vote for the first time - versus Al Gore, yes

      George W. Bush was the right person to vote for the second time - versus John Kerry, yes

      Sarah Palin is an intelligent, thoughtful person worthy of the highest offices in the land - very, very few conservatives think that

      Being "elite" (definition: the best at anything) is bad - you confused "elite" with "elitist", they're not the same

      Deficit spending is bad in a recession (unfortunately the Europeans seem to really think this) - Roosevelt thought it worked pretty well

      Teaching students critical thinking is a bad thing (well at least in Texas) - "critical thinking" in this context did not refer to critical thinking skills

  77. squeezed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is what happens when energy resources/policy are under attack. Provided the anti-energy nonsense can be eliminated, it would behoove utilities as well as the public to adopt a policy of burying electrical lines any time overhead lines are taken down, whether by storms, accidents, or aging.

  78. Tree Trimming - Lessons learned in CT last fall by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Any Slashdot user from Connecticut would no doubt remember the extended power outages last fall following a late-October snow storm. The high forestation level of the state is a source of pride here - we love our trees - but with leaves still on the trees, snow damaged was magnified greatly. In addition, it became painfully clear that the proper preventative tree trimming had not been done. In the resultant study / inquiry into the unprecedented outages we learned the largest power company, CT Light & Power, had gradually cut funding to its line maintenance trimming over the years. I'd be curious to know what the trendline is in the hardest hit areas for line maintenance spending.

    1. Re:Tree Trimming - Lessons learned in CT last fall by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      IIRC, CL&P had planned for an worst cast outage of about 200,000 customers. The October storm (Please don't use the WFSB marketing storm name.) caused over 800,000 outages. I can't figure out why they didn't have a 1938 style hurricane in the disaster plan. I think the biggest problem they had was the president of CL&P didn't properly communicate what a huge job it was, so people got the unrealistic expectation that their power would be back in a day or two. They were only off by 1 day from the 99% goal, however people figured that if it's one week for 99% then it should be 3 days for 50%. Nope, it doesn't work that way.
      They had to get medical facilities and hotels up first. Hotels are needed before line workers come in. Many towns were no help coordinating cleanup so the line crews could get in.. In my town they didn't even know a road was impassable five days after the storm until a neighbor went to the town hall and read them the riot act. The residents had to put up their own road closed signs. That's why we have a new First Selectman.
      Next there were high voltage transmission lines down. Then, as you stated, all the trees needed to be moved off of wires. They got a couple thousand crews in from a big part of the country. My street was fixed by crews from Louisiana. The Star Trek transporter didn't have power either, so they all had to drive, and make sure that the trucks could be fueled when they got here.
      It was nuts when I heard that the wackos in Simsbury were complaining about tree trimming after the storm. I hope they're put on the last-to-be-restored list.

    2. Re:Tree Trimming - Lessons learned in CT last fall by Beeftopia · · Score: 1

      n addition, it became painfully clear that the proper preventative tree trimming had not been done. In the resultant study / inquiry into the unprecedented outages we learned the largest power company, CT Light & Power, had gradually cut funding to its line maintenance trimming over the years. I'd be curious to know what the trendline is in the hardest hit areas for line maintenance spending.

      Unfortunately, maintenance tasks are often like this. Executives see them as only money sinks, not yielding any benefit. The public doesn't perceive any benefits when "things continue to work as normal." So maintenance gradually sinks. It's only when SHTF does the focus come back on maintenance.

  79. Equipment shortages and outsourcing delays? by fongaboo · · Score: 1

    Can anyone tell me if equipment (transformers, etc.) not being manufactured in the U.S. contributed to the delay of power restoration at all? If not, could this be a factor in a larger-scale outage?

  80. Re:Union mentality by geekoid · · Score: 0

    Cause.. look1 Someone claims Obama wasn't born in the US!!

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  81. next Carrington Event will make this trivial by peter303 · · Score: 1

    A repeat of the super solar storm may take out power in most of the world. It may fry most satellites and computers too. It may takes months if not years to restore power then. Some ice core evidence suggests such storm happens about once per 500 years.

  82. A plot by EOM? by infonography · · Score: 1

    the fanatical organization, Equilibrium of Mankind. Originally Amarrian in origin, EoM can be found in most corners of Empire space, attempting to accomplish their devious plan of annihilating the human race.

    --
    Sorry about the writing. Robot fingers, you know? Cliff Steele in DOOM PATROL #23
  83. You mean, like Europe during the 2003 heat wave? by alispguru · · Score: 1

    It is rare for a heat wave in the US to be blamed for more than 20 deaths. The worst one that turned up in a casual Google search was 1936, where 5000+ people died. That was before the wide availability of air conditioning.

    In 2003, a heat wave in Europe killed 70,000.

    Europeans can complain about US infrastructure when theirs gets within an order of magnitude of ours at preserving citizens' lives.

    --

    To a Lisp hacker, XML is S-expressions in drag.
  84. Pickens...Pickens...where've I heard that name? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hugh Pickens writes points out a report

    When a Pickens pushes a story about energy and infrastructure I'm always wondering: You're not related to T. Boone Pickens by any chance?

  85. Fault tolerance by JazzHarper · · Score: 1

    Over the last 30 years, electric distribution has become much more automated and fault-tolerant. It is designed to route around local faults almost instantaneously. However, that same design makes it much less tolerant of widespread faults. When there are numerous hits to the distribution grid, entire substations must be taken offline, both to protect the substation equipment (which is very expensive and can take weeks to replace) and to maintain stability on the transmission grid.

    Once repairs are underway, it is much safer for the people working on the lines to keep large sections of the distribution grid powered down than to have individual circuits coming on-line as they are cleared.

    Following Hurricane Ike in September 2008, we were without power for 10 days while Centerpoint Energy put the distribution grid back together. Everyone needs to be aware that this is the nature of the automated distribution grid and it is wise to plan for such situations.

  86. What's the cost? by Chemisor · · Score: 1

    So can somebody here tell us just how much it costs to lay a 100ft run of underground power wire? I've seen internet cables laid around here, and they do it by digging a hole every 100ft or so, using a horizontal drill to connect them, and then pull the wire through. This way the wire can go under any surface pavement and the amount of digging involved is very small. I have a really hard time believing that this costs more than wires on poles, even without considering the different maintenance requirements.

  87. Here's one reason why it's taking so long... by CptNerd · · Score: 1
    These are the kinds of trees and tree branches I was driving through as they fell Friday night.

    Even when hurricanes pass by they don't cause this much damage. The straight-line winds gusting to 70 MPH (115 KPH) for over 15 minutes is what brought a lot of things down that wouldn't normally have come down in a storm.

    As it is, I never lost power (for a change) but I'm working from home due to the office complex where I work is in autistic mode because of Verizon not being able to get some central system online.

    I hate to think what would happen if we were ever hit full-on by a Category 5 hurricane...

    --
    By the taping of my glasses, something geeky this way passes
  88. Natural Gas by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Once upon a time in America this would have been the ideal solution. The natural gas pump stations actually ran on the gas itself, burning some in local generators when needed. Then along came the EPA with yet more emissions mandates that would have cost metric buttloads of money to implement for these not really all that numerous stations... next thing you know those stations stop using local generation and switch to the grid.

    The natural gas supply _used_ to be one of the most reliable services there was; it took something really big and nasty to take it out. Now, depending on where you are, you may lose your gas supply not too long after the local power goes down. An NG generator is still a great option since it obviates the need for local fuel storage; its just not the slam dunk for longer term use that it used to be.

    I'd get a diesel myself; there are severe limits to how much gas an average homeowner can store (unless you have detached storage for it). Diesel is a lot safer and in proper containers with proper treatment will last longer in storage. Gasoline (especially modern EPA approved emissions blends) don't have a good shelf life even in a well sealed container.

  89. AEP: Extremely flimsy power infrastructure! by Theovon · · Score: 1

    I live in Columbus, OH. Absolutely every storm of any significance here, and plenty of seeminly minor ones, results in a power outage.

    It seems evident to me that AEP does not invest in preventative maintenance. If they did, there would still be outages in major storms, but the effects wouldn't be nearly so wide-spread, and the repair times would be much shorter. The problem is that with an undermaintained infrastructure, minor damages and weaknesses accumulate, leading to more weak links that are more easily damaged in a storm.

    So why don't they invest in preventative maintenance? Money. If they did better up-keep it would reduce their profit margin, and as a highly regulated monopoly, they are very constrained on how much they can raise rates for any purpose. So they pinch every penny.

    On the other hand, if they wait for catastrophic failure, they can whine to state and federal governments for emergency aid money. Now, they can perform the repairs, but they don't have to pay for it. We do, out of tax money, rather than our electricity bill, so it doesn't affect AEP's bottom line.

    To make matters worse, light bulbs don't last more than a week here, due to ubiquitous voltage spikes. We have surge protectors on electronics, but the surge protectors get damaged periodically. We have to mail-order 130V light bulbs just to get a little extra life out of them. (Yes, the CFLs get fried too.) I can't even begin to estimate the real costs of being an AEP customer, but they don't stop at the energy bill.

  90. not enough linemen by Wansu · · Score: 1

      Utilities don't have enough staff to handle severe-storm outages - the expense would send rates soaring - and so they rely on out-of-state utilities to send help ..."

    So the CEO says it's a choice between soaring rates and prolonged outages. These outages cost something too. If your business depends on electrical power, you're shut down. We're liable to end up with backup generators everywhere.

    They used to have adequate numbers of linemen. But ever since the waves of mergers and the CEOs began lining their pockets, they cut way back on the staff.

    So now, widespread T storms knock out power for a week. I shudder to think of how long power would be out now after a cat 3 hurricane or a widespread ice storm. It could be weeks.

    --
    Wansu, th' chinese sailor
  91. When was that ? by aepervius · · Score: 1

    Even in rural germany (Hessen/Pferdekopf/Taunus, Sachsen), in deep mountain, the most I see are the high voltage transportation (the big metal tree you see as high as 10 or 20 meter). As soon as a new line is put or an old one renovated , it get buried. There is an excellent reason for that with respect to some very harsh winter with lotta snow. That even happens for phone line. As for France, even there all the poles which were there in my youth in the rural zone (north of compiegne, and another zone west of macif central) are gone.

    --
    C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
    visit randi.org
  92. Sigh. by sidragon.net · · Score: 1

    Why doesn't it?

    Because severely catastrophic storms are rare, and because it costs. Yet people want cheap energy. If you are fine paying 10 times as much for power, then the electric company can retain 10 times the usual staff.

    Also, it wouldn't be "Armies"

    Not sure what you would call those long lines of people and equipment rolling in from five surrounding states, but we can use another word if you like.

    You need to grow up and stop making excuses.

    Uh, okay. How about I am not petulant about not having 100% uptime on a fairly cheap service that faces huge challenges brought on by forces of nature.

    There is no reason not to have high expectation

    Why?

    and considering the response to these issues is getting worse over the last 25 years maybe something else is going on?

    It is?

    like exec. being more focuses on bonuses then long term quality.

    Citation needed.

    we are talking about weeks, not 48 hours.

    My power was restored in less than 32 hours. Perhaps the lines around my home were not so damaged as others. Infrastructure sustaining heavier damage will likely take longer to repair.

    Oh, never mind. Forget all this reason and sense.

    Fuck the man!

  93. Undergrounding by fluffythedestroyer · · Score: 1

    Undergrounding could be a solution. Sure it's expensive at first but think about it. How much money does it cost when power is down and you have to fix it ? The men to send on the field to fix it, the equipment to replace, the time to replace it (labor), indirect cost such as companies and people who can't operate without power which no money goes to the city they operate. I think the cost of undergrouding can cut those costs especially in area's where the risk is high for severe weather and for me that makes lots of sense to use underground wires insteads of traditional poles.

  94. Aging underground by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    How gracefully do underground power lines age? Are there any (of a statisically significant amount) that are even 40 years old? Yes, hanging wire does seem like folly, but the critics seem to be screaming 'free lunch' as a care-free alternative. I have to wonder how prevalent underground placement is in earthquake-prone areas like Italy or Turkey. And replacing underground wire runs would be even more expensive than replacing sewer lines (assuming here the cables are in housings, not buried 'naked').

    On the other hand, underground power cables could really help thin the heard of slack-jawed idiots running rented backhoes without getting the utilities marked out first.

  95. Live from DC by h8sg8s · · Score: 1

    I think I'll just hop in my new Nissan Leaf and.. oh.. Never mind.

    --
    Organization? You must be joking..
  96. On the 7th Day he rested (after he created AC) by PeanutButterBreath · · Score: 1

    When you've got temperatures around 100F and humidity over 90%, you become very keen on air conditioning.

    Under those conditions, air conditioning provides a significant increase in comfort, but it is not essential for anyone who is not in an especially vulnerable physical state (elderly, infirm etc.)

    Americans are obsessed with air conditioning because they are conditioned to believe that a neutral physical environment is the only acceptable state. Any concession to physical realities beyond their control is an affront to their God-given dominion over nature.

    In the hottest places in the world people have learned to live without technological crutches, but Americans can't hack a few sweaty days without AC (again, not counting the infirm for whom special considerations are reasonable). American dwellings are built as though technology can provide complete impunity over climate, and thus they lack all the features that thousands of years of human ingenuity have developed to manage hot climates (shade, air flow, etc.).

    Of course, it is also much cheaper to clear cut land and build cookie-cutter suburban tracts, rather than work around trees and other natural features that might provide a more inherently livable environment. Screw it, we're always going to have more power and we will always get paid more every year to buy it!

  97. When are we going to get serious by kilodelta · · Score: 1

    And bury every last bit of aerial cable? Where I live it's a mixture of it - phone and cable almost always run on poles except downtown. Electric is the one that is seriously mixed. Atwells Ave, Broadway, Westminster St. all have buried electric cable. But they should bury ALL of it.

  98. Tree trimming required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    From experience in the metropolitan St. Louis area a few years ago, in which storms knocked out power for over a week to over a million customers, the principal problem is downed trees causing damage to above-ground power and communications lines. The local power company, AmerenUE, subsequently performed extensive tree trimming to minimize the risk from future strong storms. (This is far less expensive than burying the lines.) We've had no major outages since--but no major test yet either. Now that DC Area residents know the danger trees present to the power and communications infrastructure, I suspect Pepco will be given a green light (and money) to perform major tree trimming. A high profile disaster is usually what it takes for people to take action. (The poorly publicized experience in St. Louis apparently wasn't enough).

  99. Its hyperbole, to be sure, but. . . by PeanutButterBreath · · Score: 1

    . . .the fact remains that the US is significantly behind where it should be in terms of infrastructure, education, healthcare, etc. given its wealth and natural resources.

    Which, frankly, is worse than being an actual Third World country. We are underperforming despite a total lack of excuses for doing so, exhibiting the lack of initiative that Americans love to blame for the problems of the genuniely poor.

  100. Simple answer! by einar.petersen · · Score: 1

    Because Americans despite knowing better are seemingly not working to decentralizing their power and utilities, it seems they are not interested in taking responsibility for their own lives but are happy watching soaps on tv asking why when something goes wrong.. Americans it seems do not want to be independent any longer but are happy being milking cattle for power/utilities. The spirit of independence seems to have faded and is nowhere in sight. Which is sad for someone looking in from abroad. Where are all the solar panels on your rooftops, heck in China where I've been travelling extensively the last few years, the building code in many cities even requires newer buildings to have solar roofing etc. I find it funny and sad, that it seems that the Chinese price energy independence and energy stability higher than Americans who price themselves as supporters of independence and freedom. There are benefits to thinking independence into the equation - Imagine the jobs you could create if you bough "homegrown" or foreign made solar panels and put them on every rooftop,.. Windmills that extract water from the air exist - I believe are even manufactured in the US... Take a step into the future and become free again! And do so while personally winning big financially at the same time!!! What are you waiting for ?

    --
    MS, ALS, Aphasia ? http://globability.org - Me http://einarpetersen.com
  101. FEMA funding for burying wires by tlambert · · Score: 2

    There is generally FEMA funding available for burying wires.

    Every time a hurricane hits St. Croix (U.S. Virgin Islands - an unincorporated U.S. Territory), they allocate funding for burying the wires. 80% of it finds its way into various pockets, and the 20% left over goes to balancing the wires back up on poles for the next hurricane.

    Quite the little income generator, for the people with the pockets.

  102. My family in Austin, Dalllas and Houston disagree by jeko · · Score: 1

    We never had any brownouts, despite record usage of electricity last year.

    Whoops, try again. I got family in Austin, Dallas and Houston. I bought everyone Surefire flashlights last Christmas specifically because of the power outages they'd experienced. Everyone kind of looked at me funny ("Really? You bought me a flashlight for Christmas?") until repeat power outages this spring turned me from a gadget geek into a prophet. :-)

    --
    He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
  103. Re:My family in Austin, Dalllas and Houston disagr by tmosley · · Score: 1

    A. I was talking about times of peak demand during the heat wave last summer, and B. I live in North Texas (in the south plains), and haven't experienced any blackouts of any length of time in five years, where the last one I had was where the transformer on my street blew up, but maybe our power is more reliable here than it is in the big cities. I certainly haven't heard anything about repeated power outages from friends or family throughout the state. Power going out here is a big deal, due to the heat.

  104. Re:My family in Austin, Dalllas and Houston disagr by jeko · · Score: 1

    but maybe our power is more reliable here than it is in the big cities.

    Oh, yes, I'm sorry, I forgot. Amarillo and Lubbock are the "Real Texas," filled with Capitalist Heroes pf Rugged Individualism while San Antonio, Austin and Houston are the Socialist hellholes filled with lazy, grasping welfare cheats who are too stupid to keep their power on.

    Just one thing though. The next time we're fighting for our independence, could you guys up there do me a favor and actually get in the fight? The good people of San Antonio and Houston are tired of carrying your water for you. It's a little like listening to people in Alaska talk about how people in Philedelphia and Boston aren't part of "the Real America."

    --
    He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
  105. compensation and improvement considerations by asjk · · Score: 1
    Just some thoughts and raw data. Respecting everyones' adulthood to discuss facts.

    First from a Eurelectric PDF is the subject of compensation:

    Finland

    Compensation is paid after an application is filed by the customer. The compensation is based on the duration of the outage and the annual network fee.

    United Kingdom

    Functional demands are defined for normal operating and weather conditions and three different categories of abnormal conditions. At normal operating and weather conditions, 99.5 % of the customers should be reconnected within 18 hours. Outages >18h give a compensation of £50 for households and £100 for other customers. The Netherlands

    For unplanned outages more than 4 hours the network company has to compensate household customers €35, small companies €910 and large industries €0.35 per kW subscribed power up to €91000.

    Ireland

    For unplanned outages, the network company guarantees reconnection within 24 hours. Customers without supply for more than 24 hours are compensated with €65 for households and €135 for companies. For each additional 12- hour interruption, €35 is paid additionally.

    France

    According to a 2001 law, all customers have a right to compensation. From 6 hours outage and for each following 6-hour period the transmission and distribution companies pay compensation corresponding to 2 % of the fixed annual charge.

    ----------

    And next, on improvements. Here in the U.S. here is information from a PDF from Galvin Power.org

    In the early 1990s, Naperville’s municipal utility was not performing well and the city council held a vote on whether to sell it to the larger, area-wide utility. At this time, three or four customer outages per year were common. The sale was defeated by onlyone vote in the city council and the municipal utility leadership decided instead to pursue perfect power reliability without raising costs. They started applying the concepts behind what is today known as Six Sigma or quality improvement. Over a period of almost 20 years, the local grid was transformed into one of the most reliable suburban grids in the country — without raising rates.

    Primen. (2001). The Cost of Power Disturbances to Industrial and Digital Economy Companies. Consortium for Electric Infrastructure to Support a Digital Society. Madison: EPRI.

    Galvin Electricity Initiative. (2010, April). Naperville Case Study. Retrieved from Galvin Electricity Initiative

  106. Re:My family in Austin, Dalllas and Houston disagr by tmosley · · Score: 1

    Uhhh, a little butthurt there? All I said was that we didn't have power outages, while you claimed you did. I never said anything about "Real Texans" or any such BS.

    And I don't know why you are bragging about where you live. You didn't fight in the War for Independence, and I lived more than half my life in southeast Texas, including some time in Houston.

    And for the record, it is true that Lubbock and Amarillo are filled with capitalist heroes. This actually came as a major surprise to me, as it always seemed to me like they spent a lot of money on police, but their budget is really and truly bare bones, and they stay within their budgets, cutting as soon as there is an income shortfall. Also amazingly low property tax rates in the county. I pay maybe 1/10th of what the guys two blocks down in the city pay. But this area didn't get this way because I moved here, nor did I move here because it was that way. But I do respect them for it, more so than I do any other place I have ever lived.

  107. Yes, John Galt picking up his welfare check... by jeko · · Score: 1

    And for the record, it is true that Lubbock and Amarillo are filled with capitalist heroes

    Yes, Capitalist Heroes who survive on massive welfare subsidies from the government. Left to the vagaries of the market, they'd be gone in a heartbeat.

    The New York Times: "HARVESTING POVERTY; The Fabric of Lubbock's Life"
    http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/19/opinion/harvesting-poverty-the-fabric-of-lubbock-s-life.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

    "Lubbock is a rock-solid, conservative kind of place, located where northwest Texas meets the southernmost part of the great American plains. Its citizens like to think of themselves as self-reliant straight talkers. It seems strange, then, to think of this region as a sprawling welfare case.

    But the cotton farms that give Lubbock much of its identity thrive from huge government subsidies that drain the federal treasury and shelter the industry from the discipline of the market. ...."

    It's like listening to people who survive on Medicare rail against the evils of "socialized medicine..."

    --
    He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
    1. Re:Yes, John Galt picking up his welfare check... by tmosley · · Score: 1

      You are the one who keeps pushing this, not me. I was talking about electricity outages, and you came in from left field with this psuedo-nationalistic "big cities in Texas pride", and random hatred for the South Plains. Why don't you think about why you did that?

  108. The answer is obvious by gelfling · · Score: 1

    Failure is the new acceptable. Nothing really works all that well on a good day in America anymore from power companies to cell phones to cable to hospitals to airlines to local government to anything else. America is a country where getting a D+ is good enough and if that means that your city of a million people can't have power for 3 weeks after a hailstorm then that's what it means. And if you press them on the point, the answer, like the one I get from Duke power - is that they'll have to raise rates 19% if we actually want to have electricity.

    That's why.

  109. Stuxnet reborn? by Snaller · · Score: 1

    According to the experts on 60 minutes, the stuxnet code can be modified to strike back at the US, and their experts thought it was likely to happen.

    Did it?

    --
    If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
    1. Re:Stuxnet reborn? by Nyder · · Score: 1

      According to the experts on 60 minutes, the stuxnet code can be modified to strike back at the US, and their experts thought it was likely to happen.

      Did it?

      People still watch 60 minutes?

      --
      Be seeing you...
  110. Insulting the poor. by dtmancom · · Score: 1

    If you took away my electricity right now, I would not be living in "squalor and filth." I would be living without electricity. Since I already grow my own vegetables and eggs, and most importantly, I brew my own beer...... I and a lot of the other poors outside of your "area of profitability" will be living quite comfortably.

    1. Re:Insulting the poor. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since I already grow my own vegetables and eggs

      Do eggs grow on trees or bushes?

    2. Re:Insulting the poor. by cptdondo · · Score: 1

      So let's privatize all infrastructure; water, sewer, electricity, roads, comm.... Roads? If you live in a rural area, chances are your "share" of the road in front of your house cost more than you will make in a lifetime. Care to pony up?

      Also, most rural areas in the US get tons and tons and tons of Federal subsidies for almost everything. Look at the budget allocations.

    3. Re:Insulting the poor. by Electricity+Likes+Me · · Score: 1

      I'm sure the way forward for the greatest nation on Earth is to revert huge sections of it's population to pre-industrial age subsistence farming. I mean, that couldn't possibly have negative consequences for a technological society dependent on specialization and education?

  111. All of Americas problems is because of: by Nyder · · Score: 1

    Our Corporate Lobbiest who keep paying our Congress and Senate to pay more attention to Wars for Oil and Wars for Supposed Profit.

    Instead of funneling the money back home, to help the people who's money it is actually, they are more concerned with spending money in the Middle East, and on stupid ass crap, like movie and music pirates. Fuck Joe America and his family that is homeless and jobless thanks to the banks, lets kill us some more Terrorist. Oh ya, and we got to get them horrible criminals over here to America so we can try them. Ya, we talking about you rapist and you MR. Mega.

    The USA policy is so far from where it should be at, it's not even funny anymore.

    Our government has shown it does NOT care about it's people, only about making money. And in case you don't understand the Oil situation, the USA wants to drain rest of the world of it's Oil, so we can then rule the world on our vast reserves.

    --
    Be seeing you...
  112. "Earth"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why is this categorised as "Earth" when the Australian stories are categorised as "Australia"...? Where's the US's cutesy Crocodile Dundee hat equivalent... A stetson maybe?

  113. A week? BIG WHOOP! by p51d007 · · Score: 1

    We had a HUGE ice storm a few years back. Some were without power in the dead of winter for 2 weeks. Bunch of crybabies. That is the problem with most people, without "creature comforts" they will die...so perhaps it wouldn't be a bad thing, kill off those in the lower end of the gene pool!

  114. Re:You mean, like Europe during the 2003 heat wave by Falconhell · · Score: 1

    Except it wasnt an infrastructure issue, most Europeans did not have and have never needed air conditioners before that event.

  115. Why did I do that? by jeko · · Score: 1

    The US is in the same boat, with Texas being the Germany and Norway (combined, as we export oil) of the US. If we don't find some way to extricate ourselves, we will go down with the ship, I fear.

    That's why. People like you give Texas a bad name, and I'm tired of me and my friends getting looked at askance when we list UT or Texas A&M on our resumes.

    Of course, what's really ticking me off is the double amputee veteran I met who was begging by the side of the road the other day. The man gave our country his legs, and in return we gave him a chunk of cardboard to beg with. No, don't even start, the VA is a bad joke.

    It's shameful, and maybe we as an electorate might be able to do something about that if we didn't have a bunch of Fox news parrots screaming "SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM!" every time we try to talk about our country paying its debts and looking after our own...
     

    --
    He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
  116. Re:Union mentality by unitron · · Score: 1

    It's obviously the fault of the unions.

    Ask any right-winger.

    --

    I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.

  117. Why not just do what I did to restore power? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Have the power utility companies plug a power strip in at the local Starbucks -- and feed the community power grid off of that. Plus, they have free WiFi!

  118. not to sound all conspiracy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...look how the powers that "be" decided to handle the oil spill in the Gulf... They tried to wait as long as possible to fix it so the impact would be largest so they could push a political agenda.

    This will be the same.

  119. Bury them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    During our tour of Europe last year, I was pleasantly surprised at how few utility poles I saw. I guess they get it, we don't. It's not just a matter of doing them all at once, but I will tell you that dozens of times every year I see road construction where they move power poles and dig up underground utilities, but I have yet to see a single instance where they actually buried the lines and got rid of the poles. It's absurd. I agree about the trillions we spent and got little to show for it. What an ideal opportunity to fix a problem that has been a real headache for all of us. There's not a part of the country that's not subject to these kinds of outages at least part of the year. I was one of the lucky ones, my power was only out for 3 days, but believe me, with 90 degree heat, that was enough! Let's stop with the nonsense and BURY them.

  120. Nurture Your Garden(including trees)! by Footsienabackyard · · Score: 1

    Watching the news, I notice most all of the trees that have fallen have some type of rotten wood exposed. The utility is not responsible for private property trees that have fallen due to lack of attention, "nurturing."

    Nature's way of culling such defects have accumulated in wide-spread tree failure due to lack of attention.

    Distribution line pruning is regulated within ten feet of each side of the power conductors, fifteen feet is more desirable, however this is not allowed by many customers resulting in large areas experiencing power outage.

    --
    Don't you think...? Or don't you?
  121. Just how it is any more by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1
    My neighborhood was hit a few times in recent years. Warm summers and falls left trees with leaves still on them, and early heavy and wet snowfalls caused a lot of downed wires as trees snapped and fell on them due to the weight.

    Powerline workers came in from surrounding states to help restore power. We were without power for around a week. While I'm not sure that the Power industry is prone to this, but these days, most outfits toend toward having minimal staff for the work at hand. Then when there is an emergency, they have to rely on this imported labor situation.

    Those places might be hit also. So there are only so many workers to go around.

    This is the new USA folks. Minimize labor costs wherever they may be. The present power infrastructure and maintenance is not designed for any large scale outages.

    --
    The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  122. i call bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "extremely expensive option of burying all of the region's electrical lines". the power company monopoly suffers from inertia, not lack of funding.

  123. vanchuyenhangdiuc.com by lienbien · · Score: 1

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  124. No big deal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As my Almish friend said, whats the big deal, cut up the tree dry it and use if for fuel in the winter. The problem is we are a spoiled nation, use to the conveniences we have and not capable or willing to give them up without blaming the ones who only provide us a service for our own self indulgences.

  125. Too large an area by rhalstead · · Score: 1

    We can plan for the normal stuff, but like the 100 year flood or 500 year flood (had one of those about 15 years ago) you can't have enough people on hand to take care of those 500 year events or storms that are far beyond the norm without making your product prohibitively expensive. Normally the power companies would just bring in help from neighboring areas, but when an atypical storm covers as many as 4 or 5 adjoining areas the extra help just isn't there. We used to live way out in the boonies. Never did have a power outage of more than a few minutes. Since we moved here which is only about a 2 miles from the city limits we've had many failures. After the Year 2000 scare I waited for generators to go on sale. in less than 12 years I've put over 120 hours on that generator. Much of Michigan is swamp (that's wet lands for the PC crowd, but it smells like a swamp, looks like a swamp, and grows one Hell of a crop of big Mosquitoes ...It's a swamp!) That means fast growing trash trees. IOW the wood isn't much good for anything. They can completely clear the right of way and in 10 to 15 years the dead falls are getting into the power lines so they have crews just about all year that are cutting trees. If they hired enough people to do all the regular maintenance and keep the right of ways clear, our electricity would be much more expensive. Almost as much as they pay in California.

  126. Real Data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I live ten feet -literally, ten feet - from an 18 Kvolt transmission line that feeds over a thousand customers. I'm on the mid atlantic coast in a 200+ year old house.

    The power company does less maintenance every single year. Every. Single. Year. There are more incidents and more failures every year, too.

    The transformers are not replaced until they explode, an increasingly common event as they age. The wires ("tree wire" as they call it) are not inspected or upgraded until a lighting strike blows the rubber off them, and pine trees start exploding and burning from the arcs. When that happens, the trips at the end of the road do not cut out, they haven't worked in decades - the power has to be cut from a central location, and that doesn't happen until a half hour after we call in the strike. Meanwhile, if it's raining (and it usually is) the lines arc four or five times a minute, with blinding flashes and noise like a stick of dynamite going off every time. By the time the power company arrives and the power is shut off, everything's been slammed with ridiculous numbers of voltage fluctuations, so all the pole transformers are half fried and fail even faster.

    Meanwhile, where my in-laws live, the electricity comes from a co-op. The co-op has not decreased maintenance, because instead of spending all their profits on influencing legislation and increasing executive salaries, they are just delivering the power, reliably, as if it were an honest job.