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Why Linux On Microsoft Surface Is a Tough Challenge
hypnosec writes "With Linux enthusiasts and distro publishers eagerly waiting for a solution to Microsoft's UEFI SecureBoot, there are those who have already looked at the viability of Linux on Microsoft Surface tablet. Matthew Garrett, a.k.a. UEFI-guru, has revealed that those who are keeping their fingers crossed and hoping to find run Linux on Microsoft's tablet are on an uphill walk and it doesn't seem to be an easy one. So why is this? The answer is in the manner in which Microsoft has restricted the Surface from loading non-signed software / binaries by implementing UEFI SecureBoot. Microsoft has loaded on the ARM based tablet its private key instead of the 'Microsoft Windows UEFI Driver Publisher' key, which is needed to sign non-Microsoft software like Linux distributions or loaders. So, no publisher key = no signed non-Microsoft binary = no Linux."
They need to add mouse buttons, for starters.
As if you needed another reason.
Don't buy a surface?
no publisher key = no signed non-Microsoft binary = no Linux = NO SALE!
Honestly, I have no real interest in the Microsoft Surface anyway. I played with one at the store for a little while, and walked away thinking, "Pretty looking, but ultimately adds no value for me." Obviously though, others feel differently.
Still, if you're someone actually interested in a Surface but NOT to run Windows on it? The fact Microsoft has it this locked down should tell you to move along and not vote for this product with your wallet. It's great to see people enabling hardware to do new things it wasn't intended to do originally.... but where do we draw the line?
I hope the surface tanks. Linux users are probably more likely to want keyboards than windows users.
Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
More like uefi douche...
I have met him and like most kernel devs/maintainers he is a jackass
So in the same camp as every iPad made, and the majority of Android tablets, then?
SecureBoot was never about security If it was, Microsoft would put at least some token effort towards blacklisting drivers with ring 0 holes. The point since day one was to hinder the spread of non-commercial alternatives.
The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
if we ask Microsoft nicely they'll sign our boot loader. To be serious however it would be in their best interest. They would get increased sales from those who might not otherwise purchase their tablet. Will they see it that way? Hell no! They have their sights set on Apple and think they can have success doing the same walled garden crap that has me moving away from my iPhone. I sure as hell won't be buying a iPad. Perhaps someone will just have to add a slick keyboard to a Droid tablet and we can multiboot Linux and Android.
Stop. Just stop.
It's a Microsoft device. It was designed to run Win RT. This is quite clearly marked on the box and the device itself.
There are a thousand other things wrong with Linux right now and nobody seems interested in fixing them (yes, I'm doing my part, but I only have so much free time to spend fixing random issues and maintaining my own packages). No, instead, we're going to dump all our time and effort into making a device that was NEVER DESIGNED TO RUN LINUX, well, run Linux.
Sooner or later you just have to say enough is enough. This is almost as stupid as buying an iPad or iPhone and attempting to run Android on it. Just because you're buying "hardware" doesn't mean you're getting the privilege of installing whatever the hell you want on the device. Mobile equipment like this is marketed and sold as an end-to-end solution, you're not buying hardware- you're buying software tied to hardware. Making the mistake of thinking that the hardware is there for you to do whatever you wish with is silly. If you want a tablet to run Linux on, buy a tablet that runs Linux.
Trying to shoehorn the 'tux onto the ARM Surface is stupid. No shit Microsoft has locked the thing up, they're subsidizing the damned hardware by assuming that you'll run Windows on it and buy applications through the Windows App Store.
This is almost as dumb as buying a set of kitchen utensils then wondering why you can't build a shed with them. If you wanted to buy a shed, why didn't you invest in a set of proper tools? What on earth made you think a few forks, spoons, and knives were going to let you do the same thing?
Guess Microsoft is kind of following along the steps of Apple on this one..
Had Microsoft tried to sell a PC that was similarly locked-down in the late 1990s, I expect they would've gotten sued by the government. However, mobile phones (and game consoles) have traditionally been locked-down, and no regulatory agency seems to mind.
Now the line is blurring between the two, with the tablet borrowing from both laptops and mobile phones. I assume soon either it'll be OK for any device to be locked down, or all devices will have to be "openable".
I wonder how that's gonna turn out...
I can think of only a few major brand Android tablets that have locked bootloaders, and all of these have been defeated:
* Nook Tablet
* Nook HD
* Nook HD+
* Kindle HD 7"
* Kindle HD 8.9"
All use u-boot an open-sourced bootloader, and all had implementation flaws. (Actually, the flaws WERE their implementation in the first place. Let's say both had "available fixes".)
Other tablets such as the Nexus 7 and 10 have locked bootloaders too, but they are unlockable via fastboot and the command "fastboot oem unlock".
I just think it will be fun on some Chinese-made, Chinese-designed Loongson-2017. Intel systems will be locked down to help their co-monopolist M$. So FUCK Intel !
http://www.lemote.com/en/products/Notebook/2010/0310/112.html
If you want a *nix that runs on MS Surface caliber hardware and aren't worrying about licensing, get an iPad. You can fill it up with important apps for under $100.
If you want a cheap *nix pad, get an android. It still has licensing issues, but is the commodity hardware that was the MS Windows machine.
The reality is that OSS is going to be a few years behind MS, which is a couple years behind Apple. Look at the office app. Openoffice.org was possible only because the office application is now legacy and MS did little to keep the product unique. While the GUI was available in high end Unix machines since it was available for Apple, commodity machines did not have graphic coprocessors that made GUIs efficient until the early 90's.
So it is an advancement that we had a functional *nix tablet, in the form of android, before we had a functional MS tablet, in terms of surface. So I am not sure why we would want to make MS Surface anything other than a marginal device by standardizing it as a *nix device. I mean, one thing about windows is it was the standard for writing memos and the like, so if you could get the MS Windows applications running in *nix, then you would not have to have a MS license. But what Apps does MS Surface have? I mean MS is so desperate that they are buying banner ads on /. begging developers to write apps.
Just let the MS Surface die a graceful death. Don't glorify it by even suggesting it should run and *nix.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
I can't understand the train of logic here.
The Linux community in general doesn't like Microsoft. Why try to install Linux on a piece of Microsoft hardware. I can only think of two reasons, one that the hardware is worthy or two (which makes more sense) there's the goal to find something to bitch about.
Wouldn't it make more sense to focus companies like Dell, HP or even Acer and give them everything needed to help them support Linux on direct sale of hardware?
Wouldn't it make more sense to spend the energy on some 3D APIs to bring them up to gaming spec and make an actual desktop alternative to Windows.
So much wasted energy complaining instead of doing brings Linux down as a whole. Look inwards and fix the obvious... make a better desktop, get OEMs to make, support and promote it on their machines and then it's not Linux on a Windows PC, it's just Linux - problem solved.
M$ have added some clusterfuck such as a "Trusted Platform Computing Module", which is hardwired to the CPU or something similar. Expect to use the soldering iron !
The problem is that it was designed to never run linux.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
Does it make your machine any more secure?
Very dubious, because I think I can prove historically security is not a hardware issue, it is a human issue. I am not pulling this out of my arse either, I can site a huge list of failed hardware security solutions, which DO NOT WORK.
So what has it accomplished so far?
That is easy, unless you get essentially permission from Microsoft, you can't use GNU software.
I won't buy a UEFI motherboard. Period.
If motherboard manufacturers are STUPID ENOUGH to install UEFI industry wide, well then looks like all of those machines in my basement will run my databases and websites.
Lets see how long they can go without profits before putting the BIOS back in the motherboard and restore the customers ability to run whatever I damn well please on the hardware I buy.
Microsoft can suck it. So can any manufacturer that makes Microsoft UEFI motherboards.
Because as I see it, UEFI=Microsoft hardware.
-Hack
Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
http://www.lemote.com/en/products/Notebook/2010/0310/112.html
Now, tell me why it is better to have a huge screen, a superfast processor, a big disk and a leash firmly attached to your balls, to be operated by Ballmer personally !
I'm assuming that the same folks that root iPhones and Android phones, and seemingly every other bit of hardware on the planet will defeat this pretty fast as well. So yeah, let's buy up all of those cheap MicroSoft tablets and install Cyanogenmod!
Three Squirrels
Why would you even bother to put Linux on Microsoft hardware? You have chosen hardware that's crippled by design, you have chosen to get yourself shafted. There are plenty other Linux friendly hardware out there...
Except mobile phones are not locked down, famously even Apple has a DMCA exception to jailbreaking. Sony famously dropped its Linux from the PS3 because it couldn't get tax benefits for being a computer.
The reality is Microsoft (still a monopoly on the desktop) is turning a computer into an electronics device, and the should be stopped...and it won't be.
Its so obvious how that going to turn out, Android is going to overtake Windows, as my phone becomes more open than my computer. My next GNU\Linux computer will be a touchscreen chromebook!?
I reckon it will take some bright spark 6 months to figure out a way round this. It will probably involve taking the thing apart, but someone, sooner or later, will figure it out. If you try to lock down a device, some people will just see that as a challenge.
After all, the ipad/ iphone, PS3, Xbox and the wii have all been hacked. it was just a matter of time.
Microsoft has made clear they don't want Linux on Surface. Nothing is that unique about the Surface hardware. So stop trying and concentrate on Linux on any number of more popular and more open tablets.
Guess Microsoft is kind of following along the steps of Apple on this one..
...No Microsoft is forging the way ahead on Monopolistic abuse. You can still install Linux on Apple computers (just not upgrade any components). The fact that they are adopting in part Apples business model at the expense of its OEM partners is just hilarious, as Apples profit margins are set to slump :).
Excellent point.
Then maybe we can still use it to build a shed...
..is also crap. But, the Wolf does not have the nice leash around the neck. Think about it.
Just because you're buying "hardware" doesn't mean you're getting the privilege of installing whatever the hell you want on the device.
See ignoring the massive flag waving response. I have this belief that if I buy something I can do what the hell I want with it. When did I start hiring/licensing my computer!! Can Microsoft really not effective compete with Linux the OS you claim in not ready (It is has been for years) I believe the Android variant is set to eclipse Windows Next Year.
just another lesson learned from Apple.
I'm tired of Apple being used to justify shitty behaviour from Microsoft. In this case its no even true.
There are a thousand other things wrong with Linux right now and nobody seems interested in fixing them (yes, I'm doing my part, but I only have so much free time to spend fixing random issues and maintaining my own packages). No, instead, we're going to dump all our time and effort into making a device that was NEVER DESIGNED TO RUN LINUX, well, run Linux.
Until relatively recently, no device was *ever* designed to run linux. If the Linux community accepted that approach, Linux wouldn't run on anything.
I think it's important, and sends a message to big companies, that Linux run on everything. It tells them, you will not avoid us. You cannot lock your shit down. No matter what you do, we'll be there.
If I was more clever, I'd do a rendition of a Police song to accentuate the point.
You've posted this link about 7 or 8 times in this thread. Please stop. It's a piece of shit, and nowhere near comparable with the better hardware on the market. In fact, it's not comparable to even middle of the road hardware. Crap like that thing does NOT make it alright for every decent piece of hardware to eventually be locked down against its owner.
I hope the surface tanks. Linux users are probably more likely to want keyboards than windows users.
....but that is not the point. Linux users that do *keyboard intensive tasks* want keyboards...whether they want undersized candy coloured keyboards is dubious, or them attached to an undersized tablet is a another matter, but implying that the average user uses the keyboard more that any other OS is simply a little strange X pre-dates Windows :). Those that do you can see on here flaming each other about which one is best...although I believe in that knife fight the IBM Model M wins.
Back when UEFI came out people were saying how things weren't so bad. Now MS has done exactly what 'tinfoil hat wearing alarmists' said they would.
Next time, "things will be alright"-folk, dont tell us we didn't tole you!
It won't significantly impact their sales
Judging by there current sales you would think they need every sale to count. Perhaps a third party OEM will do hardware right.
It's like puking on a pile of shit.
Chevrolet car, that can only use Chevrolet gas.
davecb@spamcop.net
Nope.
It's THEIR software, you're just LICENSING IT.
It's THEIR equipment, you're just LEASING IT.
It's THEIR data, you wouldn't stand a chance in court.
It's THEIR land. The mega-corporations will outpower and outlive every man, woman, child and country.
Truth is tough, but corporations will destroy this planet, rape everyone and everything in it. How do I know?
They already did so in so-called "third world countries". Now it's our turn, and there's nothing we can do about it because the money system rewards all pro-profit behaviour. It's just a tough cookie to swallow when it happens to ourselves.
Captcha: mortem
I reckon it will take some bright spark 6 months to figure out a way round this.
A work around in not a real solution, and is criminal, The reality is the world we live in has changed, DMCA abuse is real. EFF managed to get a reprieve on the iPhones(like you need another reason not to buy Apples stuff)...but failed to get one for the iPad. Pretending its a *real solution is just a lie*, Linux is not a hacker project, ask Red Hat.
I'm assuming that the same folks that root iPhones and Android phones, and seemingly every other bit of hardware on the planet will defeat this pretty fast as well. So yeah, let's buy up all of those cheap MicroSoft tablets and install Cyanogenmod!
Apart from its not a real solution to those of us who use commodity hardware to run Linux. Its simply monopolistic abuse.
All 5 of them.
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." - Ghandi
Help stamp out iliturcy.
Why not just use an android tablets which already work with linux.
also, the android patches have been included into 3.3 and 3.4 and later kernels, so a stock linux kernel can work.
also, linux 3.8 will run on multiple arm cpus with one binary kernel.
There are far far far more android tablets. Why even bother with a windows tab?
Why would anyone expect to run Linux on Surface any more than running Linux on iPad?
I can't understand the train of logic here.
Because its about locking the computing market into Microsoft [with hardware], by making commodity components only work with Microsoft. Right now their is no technical barrier between moving between OS's. I would never be using Linux if it simply did not work on standard hardware. Its taking Lock-in to a whole new level...but I suspect you know that. The sad fact is its bad for everyone, Look at how Internet Explorer worked out.
It's almost as if they purposefully want to create products that will fail. Can anyone say "Zune", "Vista", or "Windows 8"? Do they somehow make more money doing things this way (perhaps a tax writeoff) than actually making something that sells tens or even hundreds of millions of units???
Locked bootloaders are so last decade.
Ms is hardly desperate for developes.
Are those Metro Apps, or are they just Windows Applications sold through a store front with Like Apple and Ubuntu do. Although I do despise the Microsoft Marketing term *ecosystem* especially when Windows Application do no work on your Phone. The bottom line is comparing Windows Phone apps to those of iOS and Android is a joke. Windows Phone has been out for two years already.
Good luck pissing into the wind. Any project to get Surface RT unlocked is going to make about as much progress as the petitions that were sent around to get an official process for booting iOS devices with 3rd party kernels. It just is not going to happen.
You want an unlocked Surface tablet? Get a Surface Pro running Windows 8. MS has already made it part of the Windows 8 Logo Program. All Windows 8 Logo devices must have user manageable SafeBoot as part of their UEFI firmware.
When you buy a Surface RT device, you are buying into a walled-garden managed by the vendor, just like when you buy an iOS. Don't like it? Don't buy one.
Jorgie
everything you list is EFI.
And has nothing to do with secure boot or why you can't load your own keys.
Since when can you install Linux on an iPad?
Since when was the iPad a Desktop computer. I'm sorry but Apple should not get a free pass. I think the iPad should be open...so the possibility of installing windows 8 on is a possibility, but that's that discussion not this one :) I agree there is some convergence of technology both hardware and software, but they are different markets, Microsoft does not get a free pass because its Desktop Computer has some touch-screen capability.
Microsoft Surface is not the name of a particular tablet, but a line of tablets which includes Windows RT & Windows 8 Pro
Windows 8 Pro Surface does not require signed binaries, it is simply Windows Pro.
They're talking specifically about Windows RT, and its not any better or worse than an iPad.
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
> The problem is that it was designed to never run linux.
Short of some bogus barrier, there is no such thing.
If it can run some proprietary OS then by definition it can run Linux. Linux runs everwhere including hardware that other desktop operating systems can't touch.
If it's a general purpose machine Linux can run it. If it's a Turing machine then Linux can run it.
The idea that it's "not designed for" is just clueless nonsense.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Hold on while I install OSX on my x86 box... oh wait, their software's locked...
...but not their hardware. I have thought for years that Apple should have licensed OSX out to OEMs, rather that have a dull duopoly that suited both companies, and we know why they don't, Their [commodity] hardware looks incredibly expensive compared to the opposition. Its Why Steve Jobs used to argue apple was a software company...now its an electronics company., but on-topic yeah not the same thing.
The short answer is the EFF and the FSF have *always* argued both should be open, but just because you give a desktop OS touch-screen capabilities does not make it a tablet OS. The reality is Surface is a reflection of what the whole market is going to look like...locked down electronics devices.
The line is where it's always been: you buy the product, it's yours, you can do whatever you like with it. It's unreasonable for a manufacturer to try to take those rights away from you.
You only buy a right to use it under very limited circumstances. Do not like it? Then go buy Linux. You can fully return in according to the EULA.
This is what RMS has been trying to say since 1984 that it is not about free beer. It is about freedom.
FYI must of you know me as a Windows zeolot, but I am reasonable on both sides. Infact, I used to be a FreeBSD zealout a decade ago.
The fact is most people are willing to be rapped or do not care about that as long as it runs their software and just works. I am willing to subject myself to this to run my software and get shit done without an update doing something or because I want to experiment with some setting that can hose my system.
Girls want their cutesy icons so they can text their friends about cute guys in school and look cool than a freedom dumb phone (do they even exist anymore?)
http://saveie6.com/
I cannot install Android on my WP8(sic) either, this is OUTRAGE.
Absolutely right. The point is you should have the Option :)
That's what the fine article is about. It's not a general purpose machine. It does have a bogus barrier. It is a machine deliberately designed to not accept any bootloader that's not signed with a Microsoft key. It is designed, literally, to prevent other operating systems from running on it.
Now, there are probably some programming engines in it that are Turing Complete, and so can run User Mode Linux in a limited way. But that's not the full use of the device we're talking about.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
None of the prior-generation x86 Windows tablets ran an OS that was really touch-friendly. The software, even more so than the hardware, crippled them as products. Additionally, the hardware has come a long, long way. Tablet PCs used to come in two form factors:
1. Badly overpriced/underpowered laptops with funky screen hinges, styluses, and mediocre battery life,
2. Very thick and heavy (for a handheld device) "slates" with high prices, poor performance, no easy way to use them like a laptop, probably a stylus, and mediocre battery life.
#1 achieved some popularity in workplaces and university campuses, where the ability to take notes and documents on a reasonably portable device that could also run "real programs" was useful, but they were never a commercial hit and until software like OneNote started appearing, there wasn't a lot that took advantage of their unique functionality. For the same price, you could get a more portable and durable ultra-light laptop, or a more powerful and durable conventional laptop, or a vastly more powerful non-tablet laptop. For a lower price, you could get a more powerful and durable small laptop, or a much more powerful (though less portable) typical laptop. With tablet functionality imposing such a hit on the performance and cost, and the software not there to back it up, of course they weren't popular.
#2 was even worse off. Although slightly more durable (no easy way to cover the screen though, unlike the convertible clamshell designs) and more portable (no keyboard, etc.), they were worse off for software (some programs just can't be used without a keyboard, and the on-screen keyboards take up too many pixels and are a pain to use) and were so niche that they had very little to drive the price down (convertible tablets had a reasonable amount of competition, with most major laptop vendors offering at least one model at a time in the last decade or so). Combined with their crippling inability to be used as a typical laptop (no built-in stand, no convenient way to offer peripherals), of course they sold terribly.
The world is different now. The introduction of cheap and accurate (if not precise) capacitive touchscreens has made multi-touch a far more common tablet interface than stylus digitizers. Low-power CPUs and high-capacity batteries have more than doubled tablet battery life, even as the devices have gotten thinner and lighter yet also more powerful. Relatively cheap and widely available solid-state storage has drastically improved performance, weight, battery life, and durability of modern tablets compared to their predecessors. The earmarks of the old tablet form factors are all but gone, even as the general classes of form factor - convertible and slate - still exist. Those lines are blurring now too, though.
On the software side, multi-touch has made interacting with a tablet much easier and more practical. Largely as a result of the rise in touch-driven phones, users are much more familiar with interacting with a computing device via touch - it is, after all, a natural paradigm, and one which the old tablets typically didn't support well if at all - and developers are much more familiar with writing touch-driven software. The hard-learned lessons of what makes a touch interface usable are finally being embraced by OS and app developers alike. Similarly, the importance of low battery utilization in apps has finally penetrated, and developers are learning to code appropriately. Tablet hardware (at a reasonable price) is finally capable of supporting "real" software - full web browsers and office suites, high-quality games and powerful utility apps, slick media players (and storage for their media) and tools for photographers and artists - in form factors that were before barely usable for handwritten notes and barely capable of running anything else. To find and buy all that lovely new software, built-in app stores are now common. To the user they provide convenience and at least some safety against malware, to the developer they offer di
There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
And it doesn't even have SecureBoot.
Is UEFI (BIOS) hackable? BIOS editor? Seems like an easy insert of a jmp somewhere...
anit trust laws and Linux is big in the sever market no way that Intel will give that up.
you can run 16 bit in a VM / dosbox under 64 bit windows.
And MS will have a hard time going to a app store only system as that will brake lot's of old apps and enterprise may just sit on windows 7 for the next 3-5 years any ways.
$100 month is the data plan that is not tied to phone cost and on some systems the price with a unlocked phone is the same as getting a 2 year lock in.
We have 3D printers, great. We now need a cheap surface mount soldering station.
Why you ask?
So we can pull out secure boot with a soldering iron.
I don't know if that is possible, but its coming.
Help eliminate stupid speeding tickets
I am not scared at all. Anything that marginalizes MS products, makes them more expensive, and limits their capability is welcome. MS has not advanced the computer market in years.
android is very easy to trun on side loading even the kindle fires have that setting as a on / off.
... how about fixing the problems that Linux has today??
You know ... like:
- Decent hardware driver / support. And NO!! Poorly hacked vanilla drivers are not good enough (yes, I know hardware vendors have some blame).
- Wifi that actually works. Even with drivers from the chipmakers it still sucks.
- GUI libraries that don't depend exclusively on the X11 server being running. That includes the window manager. X-server IS a security hole waiting to be exploited.
- Applications that don't suck (ie: the it's good enough for me I don't care about you syndrome) and are easy to use.
- A gigantic amount of usability improvements.
Linux has plenty of really good stuff. But there is still a large amount of things that just don't work right ... enough to make the platform less desirable (although workable). So instead of wasting time biatching about how you can't play Tux on a Surface ..... what about getting the OS running smoothly and OPTIMIZED on the hardware that wasn't designed specifically for a Microsoft OS first??
We seem not to complain that Apple don't grant us the same benefit. I've certainly not seem an article on here about the subject. Anybody who cares enough about such a thing shall know before hand they won't be able to change the operating system on a Surface or iPad. Deal with it and move on. In an idea world we would get our way, but that's the same thinking which propels Linux as the desktop of the year..
Ghandi? Did you type that on your iPad?
The problem is that general-purpose computers will not be able to run any popular software used on the special purpose ones...
Imagine what things would be like if there were no version of Adobe Flash that ran on Linux. [Yes there is a GNU alternative -- No, it doesn't work well]. OpenOffice also might not have come into its own without the serious corporate backing it has had since its beginnings as StarOffice.
Now imagine some software in the future that is more ubiquitous than Flash or Office and doesn't run on general-purpose machines... [ DRM, licensing, UEFI, etc...] General purpose machines might end up being used as business servers and university research...
The world is different now.
At least on this, we agree.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." - Ghandi
And before all that, you lose the ability to spell.
This space for rent.
I'll be perfectly honest and state outright that MS released windows 8 with such horrible implications for corporate environments just to get the several millions of windows 7 sales from the corporate holdouts that are still on windows xp.
You can't run linux on an ipad either. So linux users don't buy ipads either? Do linux users boycott apple and not run linux on overpriced apple laptops because they can't run linux on apple's tablet?
Why is Microsoft the only evil one for making a tablet that can't boot linux?
This is just plain silliness. There are a bunch of win8 tablets where secure boot can be disabled and linux installed.
But I have an unlocked development unit with the old bootloader. It's not really significantly better than say a Nexus 7. The Surface is 1366x768 versus 1280x800. The resolution is nearly the same, even if the screen size is hugely different. There are plenty of bigger tables with the same or large resolution in nearly the same price range.
I would recommend not buying a Microsoft Surface, unless you wish to encourage MSFT to do more of this.
why not start a kickstart (or something similar) program where you and i and other people interested can pledge money for a workaround
im sure it would put a spark under some teenage hackers ass
What if 2013/4/5/6 really is the year of Linux on the desktop?
What if MS de-facto concedes the niche desktop market in a chase for the mass-volume hand-held market?
What if open, desktop hardware remains available, but becomes increasingly expensive relative to more powerful, closed, hand-held devices?
Be careful what you wish for.
The Intel 486 was not designed to run Linux either... Guess what... Lots of people did.
What can I say?
There are even more problems, for example the whole hardware is only remotely related to common ARM plattforms. This goes as far as you are not allowed to use the cheap USB/HDMI/SATA/PCIE devices used in other systems because these are easier to hack.
Nice side effect: surface systems are inherently expensive because they are so uber special.
Seriously, microsoft must have been living under a rock. Windows has always sold because it was quite open in comparison with the competitors, not because it was totally isolated from the user.
"Life is short and in most cases it ends with death." Sir Sinclair
The Intel 486 was not designed to prevent the owner from running whatever software on it he desired, including Linux. The hardware under discussion is designed to prevent the use of any software that is not signed by a Microsoft crypto key. The problem is not that it is "not designed to run Linux". The problem is that it is "designed to not run Linux".
Help stamp out iliturcy.
Not sure why this is sitting at -1. The UEFI spec says SafeBoot must have the option to be disabled. If anyone bothered to read who all was part of the UEFI group they would note its a dozen companies including AMD. Well all know how much slashdot likes to suck AMD's cock.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
So, no publisher key = no signed non-Microsoft binary = no Linux."
And no sale.
And whose loss is that?
http://memegenerator.net/instance/23469267
Your intemperate ramble misses the point. Sure, there are lots of reasons not to buy this product (and I won't), but if people just lie down and say nothing about this UEFI lockout, you can bet your ass MS will use its leverage to force it on other products later on. Remember that Martin Niemöller quotation...
Oh, but wait. She did it from her iPad. Nice endorsement.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/20/tech/social-media/oprah-surface-tweet/index.html
Oh, yeah! Wise guy, huh? Woob woob woob woob! Nyuk! Nyuk!
DOSBox is still beta (version 0.##), and can it do Real Mode emulation? 16-bit VM still can't perform as well as the actual hardware.
And Sony TVs are not designed to run Panasonic or LG TV firmware, and Macs are not designed to run VAX firmware, and PCs are designed not to run microwave oven firmware, etc., etc. And vice versa too.
Want to make it work? You do all the R&D. It's not the manufacturer's job to make your job any easier, if the manufacturer choses to specifically block and unsupported configuration than more power to them.
By the way, warranty void and product hacker assumes all risk for product modification and all that stuff. Go ahead and break your product at your own risk but don't go crying or blaming the manufacturer.
If he typed it on an iPad, it would have auto-corrected.
-- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
You have perfectly nailed Microsoft's position on the subject and you don't know it. Thank you. I wanted to post this earlier but didn't know how to put it. Your post has given me clarity.
From Microsoft's point of view Microsoft is responsible for all progress in technology since 1976. It was their software that dragged along all of the OEMs, and Intel and AMD and the device vendors into their ecosystem and created this thing that became the common PC. They built it and own it all, and they own the glory and deserve the recognition for every advance since then both in software and hardware. If they give anybody access to earn a dollar for a day, it's a leasehold they can take away. Technology is a realm where they are King and grant minor holds to their loyal minor nobles - and take it away again for lack of faith. As they did take it away from Lotus, from Borland and Stac and Aldus and Novell, and many others by shifting the software to not work with their competitors apps. They take it away from others still every day, and are hoping to establish a Windows App Store where they become the ONLY channel where apps are sold, so as to improve their control even more.
From Microsoft's point of view Independent Software Developers are a ripe field that competes to be their breakfast.
It turns out that this point of view may not be in line with how things actually work any more. Maybe once it held, but not now. Now there is a different way.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
The "Microsoft" mice and "Microsoft" keyboards used to be designed and manufactured by Logitech, and as far as I know they still are. With the first run of optical mice it was blindingly obvious because the only difference between the Logitech and Microsoft models was the name decal, but later the shape was changed for the MS badged version.
This appears to apply to all tablets sold with windows 8 in some specific version? I can't tell which one any more, since they once again made their version naming utterly confusing. Anyway, all tablets that are supposed to be sold with this version of windows, only have the microsoft key on it and no provision to put your own key on it. So unless you get MicroSoft to sign your boot loader, you're not going to be running anything else than their software on it.
I was promised a flying car. Where is my flying car?
Why is this NEWS?
MS very clearly stated that RT devices would require a signed bootloader and that secure boot cannot be disabled on RT devices. Plus, this is a device manufactured by MS themselves. All of these are negative strikes against getting Linux running on the device.
If you want to run Linux on a tablet, why would you start with a Surface, rather than the zillions of Android tablets that are available far cheaper and are more widely available?
However, I predict this is only a short-term inconvenience. This will get hacked at some point to make it possible, it's only a matter of time.
The most expensive Surface RT model is $700 USD. The base model is $500 (both prices rounded up). Unless you're quoting prices in some other currency (in which case, specify it - this is a US-hosted site and most people will assume US dollars if you use the $ symbol) or are talking about the Surface Pro (which has nothing to do with the article, and the comment you responded to explicitly called out ARM processors meaning the RT model), you're talking out your ass.
I can tell you know a *lot* about these things. You were able to get within a factor of 2 of the actual price!
There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
That dominant market share of 1%?
Yes, unfortunately.
That 1% of tablets are the only ones that can open MS-Word documents correctly. They are a POS, but people will buy them if only for MS-Office compatibility.
The evil with an illegal monopoly is in letting it happen to begin with. Microsoft is now leveraging their old secret standard file formats to impose an inferior product on the market.
You missed the point.
No we do not. We don't think simply because its a ARM instead of X86 changes my mind in the slightest. Its still an abuse of its desktop monopoly. To be fair Windows on ARM is simply long overdue.
If you bought the surface, you already paid for the software too, so no, they shouldn't care what you installed on it;
their profit is already made with the sale, and doesn't rely on you keeping their software on the unit.
The trajectory of a closed platform is toward something like an iTunes App Store, with uniform capabilities as a requirement to play in the space.
Surface also has the benefit of not allowing/encouraging jailbreaking of an incompletely developed walled garden on an Intel platform, and thus risking that platform when applying a conversion of the platform to pull Intel into the fold.
It's quite clever, since it puts out there something the hackers would actually like to attack, and lets it suffer the slings and arrows until it's been hardened up enough that they can trust the Intel platform to a port of the technology there.
The nifty thing about it, from a Microsoft perspective, is that Apple hardware is effectively locked out from not addopting the entire Microsoft stack for the chain of trust, so even if they let you run Windows .* on Apple hardware, it shows as insecure, and content providers who provide their own players, like Netflix, Hulu, ABC.com, CBS.com, BBCTV, Sky, etc. etc. have players which won't trust the platform to escrow digital content, effectively putting them back in the top dog slot they've been slipping out of for the last 11 years.
>Some how they are using their monopoly power to force users to by a product in a market currently owned by iOS and Android devices? Bullshit.
...Absolutely in a none too subtle manner.
If you want linux buy an Android tablet. If you want Windows 8 buy a surface. If you want iOS buy an iPad. Its not like any other platform has said, "I want to release a tablet that the user has access to modifying the OS."
Ya'll don't get it. You're arguing over spilt milk.
How long would it take several thousand affiliated computers to break Microsofts key? I mean seriously? This is reverse-engineerable. It's only a matter of processing power. Once the key is obtained... Done. What's the problem here?
And just in case you REALLY didn't get how useless this secure boot is: Now do this over an 'at-my-command"-botnet. Does nobody see these were EXACTLY the target group of people this was meant to thwart?
Watch newsgroups over the next few months for someone auctioning off the private key.
That's from the thrashing you receive in the fight you stage.
another? I thought this was the main reason why windows RT sucked by it's way of being a closed garden shithole.
it wouldn't be a closed garden one if you could run linux. it would be fast hacked to run windows ce programs too, getting rid of ms's limit on only being able to load metro apps to windows rt.
the department this one comes from should be labeled "NO-SHIT-SHERLOCK!".
the point I want to reiterate is that nobody expected the bootloader to be any more free and accessible in surface rt than it is in say nokia 920. this is why metro is a big bet for them, this is why they push it to everyone.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Lot's of people are making flippant remarks of "if you want to run Linux then just don't buy it". Ok. Remember, Linux has traditionally run on PCs. PCs have traditionally come with Microsoft operating systems since the days of MSDOS. Things have certainly changed since those days but it's still kind of early to say Microsoft's dominance is definitely gone forever. It's a scary thing to think that Linux might not run on repurposed Microsoft platforms anymore. What if we have no good hardware solutions left to run on? Are we all going to build our future computers out of Raspberry Pis?
Yes, someone will probably break the key. It could take a while though. Even once that is done it's really only useful to a small percentage of enthusiasts. Can you really see a viable future for an operating system whose first installation step is violate the DMCA and break your warranty?
I'm sure you could get a signed boot loader for $100 like what Red Hat is doing for the x86_64 architecture.
Actually, no... it's a general purpose machine with a bootloader (BIOS) designed to not load anything (even another bootloader) not signed with a Microsoft key. The problem isn't the hardware, it's the software in flash in the machine -- Microsoft's proprietary UEFI BIOS. Replace that with something else, and you'll be able to use the machine for other purposes.
But don't do that. These need to fail in the marketplace. And people who understand the difference need to support companies that support open boot, out of the box.
-Dave Haynie
It's not the hardware. It's a bog standard nVidia Tegra 3 platform, with software (the BIOS) that demands a proprietary key.
-Dave Haynie
So, the book was sold with a large ugly sticker "Warning: this is not a general purpose book like you are used to. This is a SpecialBook(TM) where the pages have enhanced attraction to each other. Your lousy government forces us to stick this unseemly sticker on our beautiful SpecialBook(TM). Please lobby with us to have the non-general-purpose-book-sticker laws repealed."
To be, or not to be: isn't that quite logical, Slashdot Beta?
I'd like to see someone take one apart, add a way to switch between TWO UEFI chips.
The issue is, that you are assuming that the buyer is informed beforehand about what it is that they buy.
Currently, you can buy a thing called "a computer" in a shop, and it will (99% probability) have MS Windows on it, and if you want to run Linux instead, you can (painfully) try to get a refund of the software, but in any case you can install Linux on it as well (dual-boot) or exclusively.
That means that it has become the expectation that you can do this, get somebody clever to install a different OS, on a computer that you bought. You (the buyer) are assuming that it is a general-purpose computer, because *they all are*.
What if the buyer only finds out after 30 days or 90 days or whatever that he/she can't dual-boot anymore, when it is too late to return it to the shop for a refund because it is "not fit for purpose"?
I believe we need a consumer protection law soon that clearly labels computer-looking objects as "not a general purpose computer", a bit like the Unilever smearable fat product "I Can't Believe It's Not Butter!(TM)" is not allowed to claim that it is real butter.
I assemble computers myself but I'd like my family members, friends etc. to be able to purchase a beige heavy box in a whitegoods store and spy the big fat warning sticker "I Can't Believe It's Not A Computer!" before deciding whether to spend their hard-earned money on that thing or not (or, ask their Friendly Computer Nerd(TM) first what it means, etc. etc.).
I tried to put this as a question to RMS when we Slashdotters were allowed to interview him, but I haven't seen the Slashdot article yet where he answers some of the asked questions.
To be, or not to be: isn't that quite logical, Slashdot Beta?
The tablet bubble is going to burst very soon.....
When there are WAREHOUSES FULL OF UNSOLD MICROSOFT TABLETS, someone, somewhere will have to find a way to flash the roms with something more useful, or they will go the way of the DoDo.
Personally, Microsoft Surface is More expensive than both the Blackberry Playbook and HP's WebOs machine, and offer FAR FAR less... can anyone see a pattern here? In the UK, Blackberry Playbooks sell for a little over £100 and still have a great spec.
Microsoft Surface is Expensive, unpopular, no-apps = DEAD DUCK!
I read in one of these comments that this is the future of HW or something to that effect. If that holds any truth, then you better hang on. If there is no work around this will deter users from using Linux on HW that is sponsored by M$. That as I see it creates a new market with open hard ware that Linux can run on. M$ will eventually really do themselves in as they are out of touch with anyone in their user base. Furthermore, if they have used a private key and someone can access it or get to their C.A. then that'll be another problem. M$ continues to take away your ability to tweak the OS thereby "making it secure", but taking away the freedom to use the SW as you see fit. Do you really own the SW at this point or something else? They now appear to be working the hard ware angle. This is my perception and I don't currently have facts on the hard ware side, but I have noticed OS changes that I do not like. Hence I have only one and only one windows machine any more.
Or you lose. But then, of course, you're not around to make witty remarks that people quote years later.
I guess this guy knows lots about UEFI, but not about M$ history. This is the company that created the LANMAN password, and continues to botch security at every turn. I predict that a skilled security expert will reverse engineer it and have the M$ private key very soon.
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
There's a big difference between not designed to run Linux, and designed to not run Linux.
Couldn't read half of what was written because an immovable IBM ad was blocking!!!
The real reason is simple: insufficient numbers of people are interested in making the attempt. RT hardware is nothing special, and similar configurations can be hacked both more easily and more cheaply.
Not my problem - I'm not even sure if it might possibly have been a viable solution to my interests in "tablettery", which are purely personal and that flat out excluded Microsoft from consideration.
If Microsoft "Surface" won't run anything non-Microsoft ... won't Apple be jealous? Indeed, don't Apple have this patented already?
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
Short of some bogus barrier, there is no such thing.
Well does this have a bogus barrier or not?
The idea that it's "not designed for" is just clueless nonsense.
He said it was 'designed to never run linux', to which you responded that such a thing doesn't exist unless it has some sort of 'bogus barrier', which it does. Your whole post is contradicting itself, the only clueless thing here is you.
It's actually more like buying a Stanley hammer and wondering why you can't use it to drive Ace brand nails...OH WAIT! You absolutely can! The very idea of rigging a hammer to only work with one brand of nail is laughably stupid.
And the terrible strawman arguments just keep coming.