Ask Slashdot: Buying a Laptop That Doesn't Have Windows 8

First time accepted submitter Sagan's Pie writes "I'm starting to look for a laptop for college, and the only thing I seem to find are laptops or tablets that have Windows 8. I have used Windows 7 for a long time now, and would not have a problem giving it up, but not for Windows 8. After visiting many major online retail sites, I've found that finding either a Windows 7 laptop, or even a laptop without an operating system is nearly impossible. So where should I go if looking for laptops sans os, or at the very least sans Windows 8?"

Comments

Try NewEgg

[GeckoFood]

NewEgg still sells Windows 7 laptops. Go into the laptops/notebooks section and enter Windows 7 as a keyword. Some of the units that come back are refurbs, but some are brand new.

Re:Try NewEgg

[rudy_wayne]

Buy a computer that has the specs you want, then wipe the hard drive and install Windows 7. Problem solved.

Re:Try NewEgg

[Anonymous Coward]

Or check out this site: http://www.ubuntu.com/download/desktop .

Re:Try NewEgg

[linebackn]

Buy a computer that has the specs you want, then wipe the hard drive and install Windows 7. Problem solved.

Except it is not always that simple. Supposedly there are already some laptops out there that lack drivers for Windows 7. The number of incompatible laptops will increase as time goes on.

There is also the problem of support. Vendors may refuse to support your hardware if it does not have the factory provided OS or software on it.

And on top of that, you would be paying for an additional windows license.

Re:Try NewEgg

[cayenne8]

Have you tried the Apple store?

No windows 8 there.

:)

However, on a more serious note...you could get a nice macbook pro....and install VMWare on it...and get a OEM copy of Win 7 (I still seem them on newegg for a decent price)...and run it in a VM.

This combo allows you to have the best of all worlds on one computer...OSX, Windows (your fav. flavor) and Linux...etc.

That's actually the route I went.

Re:Try NewEgg

[gQuigs]

From what I understand that will depend on the UEFI implentation of the Windows 8 machine. That may no longer work depending on the manufacturer.

If you can't disable secure boot you won't be able to even install Windows 7, much less my preferred Ubuntu.

Re:Try NewEgg

[coastal984]

A lot of business-model PCs (namely HP) come with Windows 7 downgrade already. Try looking for laptops like the 4540s that have been factory downgraded.

Re:Try NewEgg

[Hatta]

Buy a computer that has the specs you want. Then wipe the hard drive and install Debian. Return the Windows 8 license for a refund. Problem solved.

Re:Try NewEgg

[AmiMoJo]

The questioner didn't say where he lives. Novatech do OS-free laptops in the UK. Yodobashi and Sofmap still do Windows 7 and even a few no-OS models.

You can also just buy a Windows 8 laptop and wipe it immediately, then claim a refund for it.

Re:Try NewEgg

[Synerg1y]

Also, it can be a pain in the ass to get the laptop working the way it was when you change OS, all manufacturers have laptop specific software that may or may not run on different versions of windows correctly. I wouldn't worry about drivers just quite yet, give it a year.

Re:Try NewEgg

[Synerg1y]

Screw that, if they start locking the bootloader, I'll buy an Ubuntu laptop first, and install WINE, or possibly windows 7 :)

Re:Try NewEgg

[AlphaWolf_HK]

Well so far every mac user I know spends almost all of their time in windows. I'm not sure why you'd pay a premium (double and sometimes triple the price) to have OSX when you never really use it.

Re:Try NewEgg

[gl4ss]

pretty much all of them will boot win7. every one of them that wouldn't are still slashdot story worthy.

that's of course unless the poor sob is stupid enough to buy a windows rt machine... ms is really digging a hole with their approach to this whole mess - but all in the name of pushing their appstore.

Re:Try NewEgg

[Anonymous Coward]

Buy a computer that has the specs you want, then wipe the hard drive and install Windows 7. Problem solved.

Except it is not always that simple. Supposedly there are already some laptops out there that lack drivers for Windows 7.

See definition of specs.

And on top of that, you would be paying for an additional windows license.

If you buy from a major vendor, like HP or Dell, MS volume window licenses also go back to the previous generation. You just need to get your hands on a Dell or HP OS install disk. This was a very common, even recommended process when vista was new. Dell was shipping systems with Vista, but including the Vista and XP installation CDs.

Re:Try NewEgg

[lightBearer]

My heart just warmed a little.

Re:Try NewEgg

[kawabago]

An old version of Win 7 might not be signed for UEFI on the new motherboard. It could easily be impossible to install an old or non Microsoft operating system if Secure Boot is enabled.

Re:Try NewEgg

[Barlo_Mung_42]

"they just bought a Mac because it looks cool"

Bingo. Where I work lots and lots of people carry their MBPs from meeting to meeting in style but most of them run win7. They've bought into the Apple "style" but still want to get things done. I don't get it personally. I've never thought of my computer as a fashion accessory but I'm not going to judge them. Buy what works and you like.

Re:Try NewEgg

[Anonymous Coward]

Except it is not always that simple. Supposedly there are already some laptops out there that lack drivers for Windows 7. The number of incompatible laptops will increase as time goes on.

You should be able to find the drivers for your mobo, gfx card, soundcard, nic etc direct from the pages of those manufacturers. Not as straightforward as slamming in the recovery disk but I doubt the hardware on new laptops won't support Windows 7.

There is also the problem of support. Vendors may refuse to support your hardware if it does not have the factory provided OS or software on it.

Fuck the vendors. Do you actually waste your money on warranties? In the UK we have this 'Sale of Goods Act' which basically protects you by law against genuinely faulty products.

And on top of that, you would be paying for an additional windows license.

Ha ha. Let's just say that's optional and leave it at that.

Re:Try NewEgg

[myowntrueself]

"they just bought a Mac because it looks cool"

Bingo. Where I work lots and lots of people carry their MBPs from meeting to meeting in style but most of them run win7. They've bought into the Apple "style" but still want to get things done. I don't get it personally. I've never thought of my computer as a fashion accessory but I'm not going to judge them. Buy what works and you like.

LOL

in my last job I asked for a Mac Pro because I wanted a *nix workstation that wasn't Linux. Because if it was Linux I'd spend half my time messing around with customising it. OSX is so amazingly uncustomisable I'd have to focus on my work. And its *nix under the hood and a great powerhouse workstation.

Re:Try NewEgg

[MightyMartian]

We just bought eight Toshiba Satellites with Windows 7 installed. Funny part was they didn't even ask if we wanted Windows 7. It wasn't until they were just about to ship it that my rep called and said "I forgot to ask whether you wanted Windows 8 or not." I imagine they're getting so few business customers wanting Windows 8 it slips their mind.

Re:Try NewEgg

[sbditto85]

Hi I'm on a mac, and I don't use windows unless I have to ... I'd say 99% of the time I don't. Now you know a mac user that doesn't spend most of his time in windows.

Your welcome.

Seriously though I only use windows for ... well windows applications and normally I can find an OSX program or a port of a Linux program for free to do what I need to do.

Re:Try NewEgg

[vux984]

I have that, well parallels instead of vmware, but same difference.

Honestly, it is not the best of both worlds, its steaming pile of crap. The Windows 7 VM runs ok, as does linux, not awesome just ok.

Meanwhile the laptop heats up and the fans come on the battery drains while you watch just having a VM open idling, never mind really doing anything in it.

I've switched to using RDP back to my windows desktop PC for most of of my windows needs. Runs well, and the macbook doesn't melt from trying to pretend its a workstation instead of a little power efficient laptop.

All that said, seriously, I'd just get windows 8. Spend half an hour or so configuring it properly ... e.g. map .jpg to use the desktop picture viewer instead of the metro app etc. Clean all the crap out of the start screen and really there is no big deal about 8.

Re:Try NewEgg

[kwiqsilver]

I don't know a single Mac user who uses windows on a Mac. I have Linux VMs on mine for VPN access, school work, and general tinkering, but my only windows installation is my gaming PC.

Re:Try NewEgg

[DancesWithRobots]

Or check out this site: http://www.ubuntu.com/download/desktop .

Uh. . .I'd be careful with this. I've been using Ubuntu exclusively for years and have had no serious problems UNTIL I tried to log into the online portion of a course via McGraw Hill Connect. The log in screen bounced me out for no other reason than because I was using Linux. The ironic part is when I found a way in that bypassed the courses official log-in screen, the online portions ran just fine.

Re:Try NewEgg

[RoboJ1M]

http://www.pcspecialist.co.uk/
Choose your os, or none at all.
Even customise your laptop.

Re:Try NewEgg

[AK Marc]

And most (if not all, at this point) allow disabling of UEFI in BIOS. So yes, you are blocked if you don't know how to press F! in boot (or del or F10 or whatever). But for most people doing a wipe/reinstall, the extra step is trivial.

Re:Try NewEgg

[camperdave]

LOL

in my last job I asked for a Mac Pro because I wanted a *nix workstation that wasn't Linux. Because if it was Linux I'd spend half my time messing around with customising it. OSX is so amazingly uncustomisable I'd have to focus on my work. And its *nix under the hood and a great powerhouse workstation.

That's like gluing your Lego together.

Re:Try NewEgg

[arth1]

you can disable UEFI in the bios

Huh? UEFI is what new machines have instead of BIOS.
Some older designs have UEFI with a bios emulator (like InsydeH2O), where you can turn off UEFI boot and rely on BIOS boot only. But that depends on having a BIOS or BIOS emulator in the first place, which is no longer a given.

What you might have thought of was turning off UEFI secure boot, which is what prevents you from installing operating systems without a secure key that the UEFI manufacturer knows and allows. Which again may or may not be possible, depending on the model.

Re:Try NewEgg

[TsuruchiBrian]

Theoretically, a website shouldn't even know what OS you are using. It is more likely to be looking at which browser you are using via the user agent, and sometimes this can be a giveaway as to which OS you are using (e.g. you are probably running Linux if you are running iceweasel). This user agent field is changeable to whatever you want, it is usually there to help web servers send you stuff that is going to work in your browser. Usually websites either give you a version of their website that is customized for your browser or some generic default if they don't recognize the browser you are using. Maybe the McGraw Hill Connect website is just written sloppily and it is rejecting your user agent. Depending on your browser, there is probably a way to change it. There may even be a way to change it for just that one web site.

There is also a possibility that you are using a browser that is blocking popups by default. Some websites assume you are using IE and therefore likely have popups enabled. This is kind of dumb, because I am not even sure IE allows them anymore.

Re:Try NewEgg

[shutdown -p now]

All Win8 machines that have the "designed for Win8" sticker are required to have the ability to disable UEFI Secure Boot.

Re:Try NewEgg

[Zomalaja]

Home > PCs & Laptops (x) > Laptops / Notebooks (x) > Text Search Terms: windows 7 (x) (1-20 of 1266 Results)

Re:Try NewEgg

[__aaqvdr516]

I second this. You don't have to use metro if you don't want to use it. The classic desktop is just as it was in 7.

Re:Try NewEgg

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, here we go with Macs are only fashion statements and they don't work. Everyone I know who buys a Mac uses it without Windows and there are a LOT of those. Most were combative ex-Windows users who had to use a Mac for work (film and video biz) and now enjoy a computer they don't have to fuck with all the time.

Well done Cupertino catching up with the Amiga from 1984.

Re:Try NewEgg

[gQuigs]

That is true that Microsoft does have that as their requirement for all x86 machines. ARM is not that case at all, and you can't turn secure boot off at all.

There is nothing that I could find requiring it to be easy. What if you have to contact the company and request it? I see no reason they couldn't do that. (That's a similar model to what the OLPC people did). It's not so hard to fathem that they don't bother if you have less than 100 machines...

That's why I said "depending on the manufactuer". Do you think Microsoft will revoke an x86 vendors sticker because it's very difficult to disable "secure" boot?

Re:Try NewEgg

[gnasher719]

I don't know a single Mac user who uses windows on a Mac. I have Linux VMs on mine for VPN access, school work, and general tinkering, but my only windows installation is my gaming PC.

Not Mac OS X users, but I know some Windows users at my company who purchased MacBook Airs (paid by the company) and installed Windows (company wide license), because (a) it's the best laptop hardware you can buy, and (b) it's a bit of a status symbol if your company thinks you are worth the money.

Re:Try NewEgg

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Windows 8 + http//ninite.com + selecting Open Office & Clasic Start -> computer usable by anybody who is used to XP, Vista, or Windows 7.

Re:Try NewEgg

[DancesWithRobots]

Theoretically, a website shouldn't even know what OS you are using. It is more likely to be looking at which browser you are using via the user agent, and sometimes this can be a giveaway as to which OS you are using (e.g. you are probably running Linux if you are running iceweasel). This user agent field is changeable to whatever you want, it is usually there to help web servers send you stuff that is going to work in your browser. Usually websites either give you a version of their website that is customized for your browser or some generic default if they don't recognize the browser you are using. Maybe the McGraw Hill Connect website is just written sloppily and it is rejecting your user agent. Depending on your browser, there is probably a way to change it. There may even be a way to change it for just that one web site.

There is also a possibility that you are using a browser that is blocking popups by default. Some websites assume you are using IE and therefore likely have popups enabled. This is kind of dumb, because I am not even sure IE allows them anymore.

TELL me about it. There was a page in the support section to test a computers suitability. Compatible browser, Java installed, Flash installed, pop-up blocker turned off, COMPATIBLE OS. I hit every mark except Linux got red-flagged. Pissed me off immensely and their support agent was as expected--no help. I found another page on McGraw Hill's Connect web site that asked for log in info, and it sent me right to the courseware. Been completing lessons ever since. Also taking advantage of every soapbox I can find to warn folks that McGraw Hill is unfair to Linux users.

Re:Try NewEgg

[TsuruchiBrian]

I'm still interested to know how they knew you were using linux.

What is interesting is that they require java considering it is basically unsafe to use java at this point. Mozilla disables it by default. Flash is also a total disaster, but I guess we are stuck with it until some better standardized technology comes along to replace it.

Re:Try NewEgg

[wiredlogic]

And on top of that, you would be paying for an additional windows license.

We know from Dell that the preinstalled crapware subsidizes the cost of an OEM license so that's debatable.

Re:Try NewEgg

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're going into programming/comp sci, do yourself a favor and install *nix.

No one cares how much the software costs, unless you're selling it. In which case fuck off.

If you're not going into programming/comp sci, keep your damn mouth shut about software and computers.

You're probably getting a shit education anyway.

Re:Try NewEgg

[Jane Q. Public]

I am also a Mac user of many years, and I only use Windows for one particular program that is Windows only, and occasionally for gaming.

But there is more to the Windows on OS X story. If you create a Boot Camp partition, and install Windows in Boot Camp, you get even more for your money. Because then when you want, you can boot straight into Windows for maximum performance, if you need it for a graphics-intensive game for example. Then, in OS X, you install VMware and tell it to use your Boot Camp partition as a VM. So you can run it that way, too, if you just want to do the occasional thing in Windows and don't need maximum performance.

Now, that's what I call the best of both worlds.

As for buying a Mac vs. some other machine: when you compare the actual quality of components, Macs are really not much more expensive. That subject has been covered in too many magazine reviews to count.

Re:Try NewEgg

[DancesWithRobots]

I'm still interested to know how they knew you were using linux.

What is interesting is that they require java considering it is basically unsafe to use java at this point. Mozilla disables it by default. Flash is also a total disaster, but I guess we are stuck with it until some better standardized technology comes along to replace it.

Somehow or other, they were able to make that determination. I looked into user agent switchers, but in the interests of getting my homework done, I found. . .well "back door" is a cliche, but that amounts to what it was. And I'm aware of the issues with Flash and Java. But college students are beholden to the books and web sites their professors choose. This particular site logs your progress and prepares all sorts of charts and graphs for the professors amusement. I sent my Professor a respectful tirade about this whole fiasco. Of course she was unable to help, but now she wants me on the school newspaper.

Re:Try NewEgg

[drcagn]

I started out on the "I hate Windows 8" bandwagon, but... I am using Windows 8 in a Parallels VM on my MacBook Pro and I find its performance is so much better than Windows 7's. With Windows 7 I would have battery drains, fans, etc. when idling just like you say. Now with Windows 8 I literally leave the VM running 24/7 without a problem (8GB of RAM, Core 2 Duo 2.26GHz). Coherence doesn't work as well with Windows 8 due to the fullscreen nature of Metro, so I just run Windows 8 in its own workspace and three-finger swipe to it when I need it. The performance benefits of Windows 8 are pretty extraordinary. Don't tell my Apple-hating friends I said that though, I'm an Apple fanboy and wouldn't hear the end of it. :-)

Re:Try NewEgg

[Anonymous Coward]

If the device you buy has Windows 8 Professional, you automatically have downgrade rights to Windows 7 Professional. It's been in place on the Professional Windows versions since Windows XP. Get Windows 7 install media, call Microsoft and they provide a license.

Re:Try NewEgg

[vux984]

I'll have to try Win 8 on it, thanks. I've got 8 on my HTPC so far, so that's where most of my real world hands-on with it has been, but if it runs in parallels better that would be a very nice bonus.

Re:Try NewEgg

[mspohr]

So, does he have to buy Windows 7 after already paying for Windows 8?

Re:Try NewEgg

[HockeyPuck]

However, on a more serious note...you could get a nice macbook pro....and install VMWare on it...and get a OEM copy of Win 7 (I still seem them on newegg for a decent price)...and run it in a VM.

How was this informative?

The op wanted to get a laptop without paying for a win8 license.. so he can run win7...

So let's see what you're suggesting..

Buy an Apple laptop: OSX license.
vmware: vmware license
windows 7: windows license.

Congrats you have suggested that the op double the price of their laptop before buying any applications...

Re:Try NewEgg

[shutdown -p now]

That is true that Microsoft does have that as their requirement for all x86 machines. ARM is not that case at all, and you can't turn secure boot off at all. There is nothing that I could find requiring it to be easy. What if you have to contact the company and request it? I see no reason they couldn't do that.

If you look up the primary source (Microsoft's own hardware certification requirements), it spells out how exactly it should work. It is described specifically as a user-controllable UEFI setup switch.

Re:Try NewEgg

[Darinbob]

I think Dell still has a Windows 7 section, even if it's not immediately obvious.

Overall though, Windows 8 isn't that bad an option. You hit the "desktop" button immediately and ignore all of the new misguided stuff. You can get a $5 utility that does this automatically for you plus adds a start menu. You can turn off secure boot too so that you can dual boot to linux or bsd if you like.

Now you may ask why bother with this when you can just use Windows 7... I'm not advocating for Windows 8 at all, but Windows 7 isn't ever going to have any more service packs and Windows 8 is really not that different on the desktop side. So Windows 8 is going to keep being maintained and updated while Windows 7 is going to end up like XP pretty soon. It's got a flat look instead of Aero (though you have to tweak the registry if you want to shrink the window borders), it has no start menu, the file explorer and task manager are updated and I think they're nicer in win8 myself but others may disagree.

Really the only thing that bugs me is that stupid charms bar wanting to pop up all the time when my mouse moves to the right side of the screen. Which can also be disabled with third party start menu utilities (that I don't even use because I've been procrastinating). I basically only got it because it was only $15 upgrade price for me because I had a new computer (though now it's up to $199 and the bargain bin "please buy me" prices are gone).

Re:Try NewEgg

[Darinbob]

Hmm, I have a Mac at work, and I use MacOS because that's the reason we have Macs intead of Windows. Ie, MacOS is Unix, so you have a real sh compatible shell, all your typical unix commands are there, etc. And once you've got the Unix stuff done you can still run Office that everyone insists you need to use. You could do this on Windows by using Cygwin or something similar, but I've found that really clumsy at times and it slows things down.

And I didn't buy the Mac, if it had been up to me I would have gotten a Linux box instead, and if calendar interfacing with exchange server didn't work so that I kept missing meetings then so much the better.

Re:Try NewEgg

[Darinbob]

Why can't they get stuff done on MacOS? It runs Office and I'm pretty sure that's the only application ever used by people who go from meeting to meeting in style.

I actually like the Macbook myself, it's much lighter than any laptop I've used in the past, and I'm not even talking about the new ones. The touchpad is vastly easier to use than anything I've had on a windows laptop (though most of the time I use a real mouse and never take my mac mobile).

Yes, it's more expensive than most other laptops, but by that logic most laptops are more expensive than sensible desktop computers. Actually I have a price list at work, comparing the Dell "travel" version of laptop vs MacBook Air (travel version means lighter and less powerful, for people who travel a lot), and the MacBook Air is only $25 more expensive (same SSD size, same cpu, same RAM).

Re:Try NewEgg

[Darinbob]

I think PCs are required to allow users to disable secure boot. It's only the RT where you're forced to use secure boot and can't' turn it off. And many of the newer PCs still have legacy BIOS styles of booting anyway (and Windows 8 will whine during install that you're missing out).

Re:Try NewEgg

[Darinbob]

I'm pretty sure that on all of the "Designed for Windows 8" PCs you can go into the BIOS/UEFI at boot time and change it. Changing BIOS settings has been done this way for decades. This will not be too obscure for people who are used to doing dual boot.

Re:Try NewEgg

[Lawrence_Bird]

Then I guess the really "cool" features you need are only supported under Windows 8? I honestly do not understand the implication behind many of these posts that the mfg. should provide drivers for every OS under the sun that you could put on the pc/laptop they designed to be used with just one os.

If people want/need that kind of support then buy components individually that meet your requirements and assemble yourself. But don't be crying or shocked that the mass marketer only wants to support the mass market.

Re:Try NewEgg

[CAIMLAS]

This combo allows you to have the best of all worlds on one computer...OSX, Windows (your fav. flavor) and Linux...etc.

If he's going to do that, he might as well just buy an old laptop on with w7 on it from ebay.

No, I'm not dissing Apple hardware. I'm saying his performance will be similar to if he were on an older device due to the relative performance (disk, memory, ipc, context switching, etc.) of OS X compared to, well, pretty much anything else at this point.

I'd be more accurate to say, 'If you really want a Mac that performs well, wipe the Mac and put linux on it... then install OS X in a hackintosh VM under either vmware or virtualbox." Performance will be better than bare metal.

Re:Try NewEgg

[olip85]

Return the Windows 8 license for a refund.

Goooood luck...

Re:Try NewEgg

[X0563511]

Most of the time, your browser reports your OS in the user agent. For some reason.

Re:Try NewEgg

[couchslug]

"There is also the problem of support. Vendors may refuse to support your hardware if it does not have the factory provided OS or software on it."

Seems the hard disk got too close to a piezo gas grill igniter unit and is deader than cheap petrol and honest government. This magic RMA tool doesn't leave visible marks, not that I'd ever use it for anything but cooking steak.

"And on top of that, you would be paying for an additional windows license."

Perhaps.

Re:Try NewEgg

[westlake]

Buy a computer that has the specs you want. Then wipe the hard drive and install Debian. Return the Windows 8 license for a refund. Problem solved.

Even if this ploy is successful --- it's a perfectly ridiculous waste of time and money that will net you next to nothing.

Microsoft has released licensing rates for OEM Windows 8, including US$60-80 for Windows 8, US$80-100 for Windows 8 Pro (with Office) and US$50-65 for Windows RT (with Office), according to Taiwan-based notebook supply chain makers.

Microsoft unveils Windows 8 OEM licensing charges

Then there is the small matter of warranty service and technical support.

You purchased a system with hardware, software and drivers certified for Win 8, remember. Diagnosing and repairing problems associated with any random --- and customized --- Linux distro was not part of the deal,

Re:Try NewEgg

[Scarletdown]

win8 pro has a downgrade clause for win7 pro. so no, no additional license

Is that actually a downgrade, or would most intelligent users consider that a major upgrade?

Re:Try NewEgg

[the_B0fh]

seriously? osx runs better in a VM than on the bare metal of that same box?

evidence?

Re:Try NewEgg

[masshuu]

I have a co-worker who spent i think they said 4-5 hours total between 3 phone calls to whichever company produced their computer, i forget who it was.
After complaining and yelling at them for 4 hours, they revoked the windows 8 licence and mailed them an OEM copy of windows 7 with drivers and they are quite happy now.

Re:Try NewEgg

[Common Joe]

I've spoken to Microsoft. They are not making Windows 7 anymore. Period. End of story. They told me that anything we see with Windows 7 (such as a retail copy) is overstock by that store. I know this because I just had to replace my laptop and I just went through the game of 20 questions with them. They are ramming Windows 8 down consumers' throats.

Re:Try NewEgg

[Vegemeister]

How much time do you spend messing around with bullshit caused by not having a real package manager?

Re:Try NewEgg

[bemymonkey]

IF, and that's a big IF, there are solid Windows 7 drivers available for the device you're buying. Companies like Dell or Lenovo will usually provide older drivers for high-end machines (and ones meant for businesses), but if you buy an Acer/ASUS/Samsung computer with Windows 8, good luck finding manufacturer-specific drivers (and those are necessary for things like OSDs and battery life optimizations to work properly).

If you're planning on doing this, make sure the manufacturer offers all drivers for Windows 7 for the machine...

Re:Try NewEgg

[bemymonkey]

"You should be able to find the drivers for your mobo, gfx card, soundcard, nic etc direct from the pages of those manufacturers. Not as straightforward as slamming in the recovery disk but I doubt the hardware on new laptops won't support Windows 7."

That's just it - the hardware supports Windows 7 just fine, but releasing customized versions (the customizations are necessary for things like battery life optimization) of Windows 7 drivers is expensive and time-consuming... many manufacturers simply won't bother unless they're still selling the same hardware with Windows 7 anyway, or offer an official downgrade option (like Dell or Lenovo on their business models)...

If you just download a generic driver from Intel/nVidia/ATi, you usually won't get everything your hardware has to offer - be it things like OSDs for display of volume/brightness or battery life (example: Installing straight-from-manufacturer [i.e. all original Intel drivers] on a Thinkpad instead of the Lenovo-customized drivers will reduce your battery life by about 40% - it's a *huge* difference).

Re:Try NewEgg

[bemymonkey]

"But there is more to the Windows on OS X story. If you create a Boot Camp partition, and install Windows in Boot Camp, you get even more for your money. Because then when you want, you can boot straight into Windows for maximum performance, if you need it for a graphics-intensive game for example. Then, in OS X, you install VMware and tell it to use your Boot Camp partition as a VM. So you can run it that way, too, if you just want to do the occasional thing in Windows and don't need maximum performance."

That's an AWESOME feature... I wonder if that's possible with an Ubuntu+Windows dualboot as well...?

Re:Try NewEgg

[bemymonkey]

"pretty much all of them will boot win7. every one of them that wouldn't are still slashdot story worthy."

Yes, but will they offer similar battery life under Windows 7 without heavily OEM-optimized device drivers? Going on my previous experiences, I highly highly highly doubt it.

Re:Try NewEgg

[David Gerard]

UA string change extensions aplenty.

For the bludgeon method: Windows Firefox running in Wine. It thinks it's on Windows, the site thinks it's on Windows, luvverly.

Re:Try NewEgg

[myowntrueself]

LOL

in my last job I asked for a Mac Pro because I wanted a *nix workstation that wasn't Linux. Because if it was Linux I'd spend half my time messing around with customising it. OSX is so amazingly uncustomisable I'd have to focus on my work. And its *nix under the hood and a great powerhouse workstation.

That's like gluing your Lego together.

So it doesn't fall apart. This is work.

Re:Try NewEgg

[myowntrueself]

How much time do you spend messing around with bullshit caused by not having a real package manager?

Really very little. Its a workstation.

Re:Try NewEgg

[trevatxtal]

""Buy a computer that has the specs you want,then wipe the hard drive and install Windows 7. Problem solved."" And don't Gates just love such dumb folk. Pay for windows twice, that is so Dumb, the question was fair give a fair answer or say nothing. If only I had a delete person button I would have pressed it. T

Re:Try NewEgg

[jawtheshark]

If they truly do this, they are in breach of their volume licensing contract. My manager doesn't want to understand it either, but volume licenses are UPGRADES to preinstalled OEM PRO versions of Windows. You may not install a volume licensed Windows on a bare PC, or a PC featuring Windows Home. By that logic, installing a volume licensed Windows on a Mac is not allowed.

Please inform your company IT department about this. I'm not making this up: About Licensing

Re:Try NewEgg

[L4t3r4lu5]

Links to Windows 7 SP1 ISOs

Digital River are a Microsoft authorised distributor. The ISOs linked are clean.

Re:Try NewEgg

[robthebloke]

I managed to get a refund. From talking to the MS person on the phone, it sounds like it's the most common request at MS support right now....

Re:Try NewEgg

[fuzzywig]

Much more common in the business world.

Re:Try NewEgg

[Nerdfest]

It's actually more like somebody else gluing your Lego together.

Re:Try NewEgg

[Digital Vomit]

Typical internet advice:

Q: "So where should I go if looking for laptops sans OS, or at the very least sans Windows 8?"

A: "Buy a laptop with Windows 8, then..."

Re:Try NewEgg

[jawtheshark]

Whoops... It does say that "Apple Macintosh" is a qualifying operating system. That's the weirdest exception I've ever seen. (But understandable, isn't it?)

Re:Try NewEgg

[Tangential]

Well, I have been on a Mac since they went Intel and I have both Fusion and Parallels. I tend to start one of them occasionally to run Linux and once or twice a month I resume a machine to run IE for local testing for a few minutes.

I can't imagine why a mac user would spend most of their time in Windows unless there was a specific program tying their hands. Even then they can somewhat seamlessly blend it into their OSX desktop.

There are some real advantages to the VM approach. Properly done it reduces or eliminates the need for AV software in the VM and increases the safety of the overall system. There's a reason that almost every security researcher you see runs OSX and uses VMs for testing.

All that being said, I wouldn't spend 100% of my time in a foreign VM on my notebook unless it was all virtualized with a bare metal hypervisor.

Re:Try NewEgg

[TerraRasa]

Microsoft will refund the cost of the Windows license should the retailer refuse to do so.

Re:Try NewEgg

[hunterkll]

That's for the ... Volume Upgrade License.... not regular volume license / open license / etc.

You can get volume copies of full editions of 8/2012 /etc etc that are full bare metal installations from VLSC etc. otherwise, there'd be a lot of issues with some customers...

  The table below lists the qualifying editionns of Windows eligible for the "Volume Licensing upgrade" under each Volume Licensing program.

If your OS license qualifies, "you can purchase the Windows 8 Pro Upgrade license", under your Volume Licensing agreement.

AKA: You can get cheaper upgrade via volume, though I've never messed with upgrade licenses under vol. I suppose that'd be for people without Software Assurance (free exchanges to full copies of the new version in volume license land)

Again: "The following conditions must be met for a licensed PC to be eligible for a Volume Licensing upgrade license:" - VOLUME LICENSEING UPGRADE - not /ALL/ volume licensing. there's a lot more to it than just upgrade licenses.....

Re:Try NewEgg

[cayenne8]

I've never run into anyone that bought one for style I guess.

Mine very rarely leaves the house frankly. I bought it primarily to develop stills and edit and color grade videos. I like the mac due to it coming out of the box with tools I can use (iMovie, iPhoto, Garage band).

Once I get used to using those, for only $80 I was able to get Aperture 3, a VERY nice tool for editing my photographs (I have a Canon 5D3, so I want to put out the best images and video I can)....and for only $300 I was able to get Final Cut Pro X...another high end tool.

Everyone says they are so $$$...but when I see what software comes with them, and then how cheap it is to upgrade these...well, let's put it this way, the alternative is pretty much the Adobe CS6 suite and regular price is just under $3K.

For what I wanted, I think I got a bargain.....i7 processor, I got the least amount of ram, and upgraded myself to 16GB....acts as a great little workstation, and with VMWare, when I need to do something windows centric, or even with distros of Linux I like...I can run those too...

And when I do need to travel, it goes with me, but usually in a case so really...who's going to see it?

Re:Try NewEgg

[cayenne8]

I have that, well parallels instead of vmware, but same difference.

Honestly, it is not the best of both worlds, its steaming pile of crap. The Windows 7 VM runs ok, as does linux, not awesome just ok.

Meanwhile the laptop heats up and the fans come on the battery drains while you watch just having a VM open idling, never mind really doing anything in it.

I don't find I have that problem on my macbook pro.

What did you buy hardware wise?

I got the late 2011 mondel 15" mbp, I maxed it out for screen, i7 processor, top gpu available, and I upgrade the ram to 16GB myself.

It barely even hums most of the time when I'm running things.

About the only time the fans have to kick on, is when I'm rendering video with Davinci Resolve.

I mean, if you ARE going to run VMs, you do need to make sure you have the hardware to do it properly otherwise of course, you'll not be happy.

Re:Try NewEgg

[hunterkll]

I do like all the new views and features the new task manager has though. I spend 99.9% of my time inside the desktop instead of metro. Metro's an awesome application launcher. It's like using quicksilver on OS X ... MS finally caught up to that ... 7+ years later

Re:Try NewEgg

[DancesWithRobots]

That was another option I considered. But when you come down to it--there was no reason to lock me out simply because I'm running Windows. My solution is currently to "use another door" without misrepresenting myself or my configuration in any way.

Re:Try NewEgg

[hunterkll]

Really? I've installed Win8 hundreds of times across VMs, bare metal, etc, and not ONCE has it mentioned secure boot to me.

Re:Try NewEgg

[jawtheshark]

My MS Rep said I only could get those... And I have the software assurance + open value contract. It has been repeated serveral times, "only upgrades". It pisses me off, because I don't see much of monetary savings. The only thing it helps me is that I can image stuff... which is a boon for me, but my boss already told me by now that my time isn't that valuable and that if we have to pay the OEM versions anyway, we might as well use them.

Re:Try NewEgg

[couchslug]

It's still for sale:

http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msstore/list/parentCategoryID.44066700/categoryID.60521000

"They are ramming Windows 8 down consumers' throats."

Downloading a clean Windows 7 .iso then using an activator solves that problem.

There is good reason that the first reaction to new OS releases in the "rest of the world" is to figure out ways to get it free.

Re:Try NewEgg

[couchslug]

The proper attitude towards such warranties is "fuck ME? No, fuck you!"

I'd never turn in a computer with a working hard disk since I want MY data to stay MY data. A piezo gas grill igniter and a few inches of wire for the ground makes a dandy RMA tool. "Intermittent? No, DEAD" and there is no argument.

If you don't want to pull the hd, DBAN it instead and play stupid. "OS not found", oh well.

The other way is to ALWAYS make recovery media and save them so you can return a PC to factory state for resale.

With those choices, warranty is not an issue.

Re:Try NewEgg

[cdrudge]

Then there is the small matter of warranty service and technical support.

If you're running Linux, you are already likely far ahead of any customer support a consumer will receive when calling for technical assistance.

Regarding warranty support, every laptop that I've owned that required repair, in or out of warranty, required that the hard drive be removed when I shipped it in (presuming it wasn't the drive that was the issue). And once you remove the hard drive, it doesn't matter what OS was being used.

Manufacturers can't just automatically deny the warranty because you install a different OS. It has to be demonstrable that the change in OS was the cause of the issue.

Re:Try NewEgg

[Common Joe]

I stand corrected. (It doesn't change what Microsoft said to me, but it does highlight my incompetence and Microsoft's incompetence. I was speaking directly to their sales department. Maybe they changed something in the past 4 weeks since I talked to them?)

Re:Try NewEgg

[voice_of_all_reason]

Hah, "paying"

Re:Try NewEgg

[StuartHankins]

I use Parallels every workday with XP, not Windows 7. I've done this since 2007. I have a 2007 MBP. My fans don't go on unless I use Flash or am compiling something.

If your fans are coming on, and your VM is idling, something's wrong. Could be that you've got more running in that VM that you are aware. Or you've substantially overallocated the memory to it. Or you have a small amount of total memory and don't have enough available to run a VM period.

Re:Try NewEgg

[Admiral_Grinder]

I aggree, this does sound like an awesome feature. Even though I have a windows install for games, having a VM use it while I'm preping taxes would be great. Wouldn't Windows do its normal "OMG, my hardware changed, FML" freakout session though? I don't recall how much exposure the hardware gets through VM.

Re:Try NewEgg

[vandamme]

Buy a computer that has the specs you want, then wipe the hard drive and install LinuxMint. Problem solved.

FTFY.

Re:Try NewEgg

[cthulhu11]

I have MSWXP and MXW7 VM's on mine for dealing with iLO / ILOM tasks that require the MS stuff, as well as the occasional @$@!!###$@# albumwrap archive.

Re:Try NewEgg

[adamstew]

on a mac, it is. You need a 3rd party boot loader for your mac, but you can tri boot with OS X, Windows, and Ubuntu on a mac.

Re:Try NewEgg

[mgcarley]

McGraw-Hill is not the only one to make the mistake of using Java - ALEKS uses it too. And even forces you to use the Sun/Oracle version too, can't even use IcedTea.

Many of these courseware websites I fear are dreadfully out of date (that is, even if the courseware is recent, the technology running it is not and has probably been around since ~IE6 was still popular).

Sadly, wouldn't be surprised if, even in new iterations of such sites, the specifications provided to the programmers include that the whole damn thing be in Java.

Even more sadly, for the most part it's only really us geeks who know/care that Java is bad - your average student probably doesn't know or care.

Re:Try NewEgg

[mgcarley]

The Holiday Inn in Tbilisi mysteriously has Windows installed on the 4 big shiny Macs in the business centre. Not sure why.

Re:Try NewEgg

[Darinbob]

I think this was just duing the upgrade, or possibly the "test if your pc is ready for win8" that you have to run before you're allowed to download win8.

Re:Try NewEgg

[Jane Q. Public]

"Wouldn't Windows do its normal "OMG, my hardware changed, FML" freakout session though?"

No, it doesn't. Your hardware hasn't actually changed. What freakouts Windows would normally do, I guess VMware has figured out.

And as for the other person's question: yes, you can also dual-boot Windows and Linux in your Boot Camp partition, but in all cases you have to install Windows on the partition first.

Re:Try NewEgg

[MightyMartian]

Toshiba Satellite C870. We do training with them, so we wanted the 17" screen. It's a no frills business laptop, but for what we're doing it's perfect.

Re:Try NewEgg

[bbsalem]

Yes, you hit the nail on the head.

Even if you don't like Ubuntu with Unity, at least the cost of it isn't bundled with the price of the whole system.

Unity is about as brain dead as the start screen on Windows 8, and for the same reason. At least Windows 8 runs on a tablet for which that is reasonable.

The OEM deal Microsoft has with PC vendors is a reason I have no faith in the laws of the U.S. that were designed to protect consumers from monopoly. That deal should have been declared illegal long ago.

That said, Windows is largely crap, and the biggest reason is that it is basically a huge security hole that can't be plugged. If Norton can nag you about installing their anti-virus software on a new Windows install, evey hacker can get the keys to your kingdom as well. I wouldn't go so far as to assert that Linux is not hackable, just like users can be persuaded to reveal the root password. but it seems to be harder to rootkit than to get access on a Windows system.

A little courage can save you lots of money. You might even be money ahead to buy a recent refurbished laptop with a clean disk or no disk and put a new disk in and install some version of Linux and try the Windows-like apps which should meet most of your needs. Don't let some bozo install Windows or charge you for a Windows install when there are plenty of fine Linux distributions that you can test from live DVD before you decide to install one. They run entirely in memory and do not touch the hard drive, and you get get the flavor and test them before you install. I have run some recent versions on an ancient box with no disk at all and with less than a gig of ram. You can easily try these and see if you like what they do at no risk.

If you insist on running some Windows app, that is doable on most Linux systems with have emulation for Windows, which is most of them.

Re:Try NewEgg

[vux984]

Mine's an early 2010 mbp. 13". upgraded cpu and ram; its got whatever nvidia solution was available for it. Although the 13" was a bit weaker performance-wise than the larger ones to start with. But I value the portability and knew that going in.

Even so, it rarely heats up in regular OSX at all, except when running games.

But the fans kick on pretty much as soon as I start a VM.

Its not bad if I'm at a desk, with an external keyboard / mouse etc. The performance is acceptable. The fan noise isn't excessive. But I bought the 13" portable to be portable so the heat and battery life issues are a real problem -- it gets uncomfortably hot to have on my lap and enough heat is radiating upwards that even the trackpad gets just warm enough to be noticeable and mildly uncomfortable.

"steaming pile of crap" might be an overstatement; but i envisioned myself being able to fiddle around in linux while on the couch and its just not quite acceptable for that. Or to have win7 idling in the background so i can check things with various win browsers ... and I can do that, i just don't leave windows idling between doing it.

Re:Try NewEgg

[vux984]

I use Parallels every workday with XP, not Windows 7

I appreciate the data point that you've got XP running without issue; but its not exactly evidence that I've done something wrong with Windows 7.

Windows 7 x64 and Windows XP are not exactly the same thing.

Re:Try NewEgg

[steveg]

Are you sure about that? Ten years ago their "click-wrap" license said that. Last time I got a machine preloaded with windows (3 or 4 years ago) I went through that carefully, with my camera ready to document it, and found no trace of that statement.

Re:Try NewEgg

[TsuruchiBrian]

The reason I said "theoretically" was because the only reason websites should be able to know what OS you are using is because your computer volunteers this information. What I was asking the OP was whether he had tried changing his user agent, because I was curious if there was some other method I was unaware of that the website was using to determine his OS. Based on his comments, it seems like he didn't change it, so that's more than likely how the website knows.

Re:Try NewEgg

[Patch86]

Strange behaviour, really, considering they presumably don't want to exclude any customer who wants to give them their business.

My company has a big web portal, and we have a "supported systems" section which lists the various popular web browsers and, yes, OSs- no Linux on our supported OS list. But that doesn't mean we don't want your business- indeed, there's a footnote that says "your system will almost certainly work, but no guarantees". The only reason we have the section at all is because we need to guarantee our web portal will work for customers in order to sell it, and we need to provide phone support if it doesn't- and, well, you have to draw the line somewhere for full system testing and training for the support staff.

Re:Try NewEgg

[Patch86]

To make life even easier, there's also:
http://www.ubuntu.com/certification/

Make sure you pick a Windows laptop from that list, and you're guaranteed that it will work with Ubuntu (which, admittedly, is not a guarantee that it'll work with Debian, but it should be near as damnit considering the shared resources). No horrible WiFi driver nightmares for you.

Re:Try NewEgg

[DancesWithRobots]

I can understand having to limit support. But McGraw Hill's response was to shut the door as soon as I got to the log-in page. They didn't do any checks, or give any warnings during the initial account creation--which upon completion dropped me right into the courseware jump-off page. But as soon as I logged off and tried to come back--BOUNCE! I knew I'd be able to find another way in, but many people--probably most--wouldn't be able to. This is the first time in years I've had an absolute and unnecessary roadblock and it's time to end this sort of petty bullshit. This year I certainly WON'T be doing my taxes online at H&R Block, and I'll never sign up for another course that uses McGraw Hill Contact.

Re:Try NewEgg

[Divebus]

NIce try. The Amiga came out in 1985.

Re:Try NewEgg

[CAIMLAS]

I guess you'll just have to try it yourself?

It's crap for visual stuff but context switches are faster/more responsive and take less real overhead... not sure I get it, but there it is.

apple.com

[SirJorgelOfBorgel]

See comment subject. Doesn't come with Windows 8. Guaranteed.

Re:apple.com

[TehSpida]

That only works if he has twice as much money to spend compared to a Windows laptop.

Re:apple.com

[Wookact]

Seriously? This gets modded up too?

Re:apple.com

[Empiric]

True. It comes with uncredited BSD Unix instead.

Re:apple.com

[Jeng]

And if his applications run on a Mac vs a PC.

and

Also yes he could run Windows 7 on a Mac, but if he is looking for a laptop with Windows 7 on it then he may not be able to afford an operating system separate from the computer at this time.

Re:apple.com

[MightyYar]

Huh? Maybe 10%?

But if he's in the market for a $400 laptop, then Apple makes no such beast.

Re:apple.com

[neminem]

Why not? Granted, I'd mod it up "+1 Funny: Smartass" rather than "Insightful", but it is technically a completely valid answer to the guy's question.

Re:apple.com

[AlphaWolf_HK]

Only problem with apple.com is they sell computers that have been empirically found to be of inferior in quality to cheap OEM's like Asus and Lenovo, and yet cost a lot more than (almost twice as much) the more expensive OEM's like Dell. Asus and Lenovo also give you a better warranty for free (Asus warranty even includes free accidental damage for one year in addition to the standard two year warranty.)

Re:apple.com

[Wookact]

Except for the fact that the guy clearly wants Windows 7.

Re:apple.com

[Megane]

Only problem with apple.com is they sell computers that have been empirically found to be of inferior in quality to cheap OEM's like Asus and Lenovo

[Citation needed]

With current "unibody" laptop models, not the old "aluminum" models they stopped selling three years ago. (I had three of them, one PPC and two Intel. Those cases sucked, or at least the 17" version did. The DVD-ROM drive would go physically out of alignment with the slot so that you couldn't eject a disc, and skin oils on my hands eroded the top surface. The unibody is a lot more sturdy.)

Re:apple.com

[AK Marc]

And is willing to do a wipe/reinstall. Which works on Apple as well.

Re:apple.com

[CityZen]

Nonsense. Every Apple laptop is a $400 laptop, eventually. Just add patience. :-)

Re:apple.com

[Entropius]

Uncredited BSD Unix with a GUI on top that somehow manages to be even worse than Unity.

Re:apple.com

[wisty]

Obvious troll is obvious. Why is this upvoted?

Saying "imperially found to be lower quality" is just bullshit. If you have some study where they have a higher rate of failure, you can always link it. (Their fucking laptop chargers are a joke - I've been through a few and if they don't brick themselves the cord wears out and can't be replaced). But "quality" is way to vague, and just invites a troll war.

Some Apple stuff is OK. Dell and Sony are rarely much cheaper. Asus and Levano may offer better value products, but it's hard to say.

The big problem with Apple is the lack of variety. They don't offer value products, like a 14" laptop (these seem to be the best value) or non-workstation desktops.

I could waste my time justifying the cost of a MBA (the display, speakers, aluminium casing, large touchpad). It used to be streets ahead of the competition, but now there's some competing ultralight laptops with better displays.

Re:apple.com

[lister king of smeg]

But you get a computer that is twice as nice.

signed a former windows/linux user.

system76 bonobo extreem $3893
17" 1080p screen
3rd Gen Intel Core i7-3940XM Extreme Processor 3.00GHz 8MB L3 Cache - 4 Cores plus Hyperthreading
32 GB Dual Channel DDR3 SDRAM at 1600MHz - 4 X 8 GB
primary drive 512 GB Crucial M4 Series SATA III 6 Gb/s Solid State Disk Drive + secondary drive 1 TB 5400 RPM SATA II --- totaling out at 1.5 TB
8X DVD±R/RW/4X +DL Super-Multi Drive
carry case
Extra 89.20 WH 8 Cell Smart Li-ION Battery
Extra AC Adapter

macbook pro retina 15 inch $3907
2.7GHz Quad-core Intel Core i7
16GB 1600MHz DDR3L SDRAM
768GB Flash Storage
Apple USB SuperDrive (optical drive)
extra power adapter

the mac has a less powerful possessor no integrated optical drive so you have to use usb one, has half the ram and half the storage you can't replace the battery let alone have an extra, and is still more expensive. so much for twice as nice.

Re:apple.com

[Vegemeister]

Which is entirely sufficient for what 95% of people do with their computers. The only thing that you have to be wary of is screen resolution. Cheaper Windows Windows machines and the Macbook Air tend to stick you with the godawful 1366x768.

Re:apple.com

[scotts13]

Hah hah! No.

Re:apple.com

[clay_buster]

How did this get mod'd up? I own 4 Dell Latitudes (3 year warranty) and a MacBook. The Macbook has better screen resolution, 1680x1050, and a great trackpad. The dell has a docking connector and better warranty. In 2011 the Macbook had higher memory capacity and cost less or the same as a quad core Latitude.

Re:apple.com

[Doc Hopper]

Right there with you on "citation needed". I use my Macbooks day in and day out for mass-scale storage administration, and have found the build quality and longevity exceptional compared to the dozen or so HP, Dell, Lenovo, and Toshiba laptops I've owned over the past decade.

1. The batteries last longer: 3+ years instead of the 1-2 years typical of every other laptop I've ever owned since laptops went to Lithium instead of NiMH.
2. The keyboards hold up under my hands, while the Toshiba, Dell, and HP nearby -- all newer than the macbook I'm typing on, by the way -- are all sidelined with keyboard problems, doing duty as servers or using an external monitor and keyboard for my kids to do their homework and play Minecraft.
3. The underlying OS is UNIX. I've been using Linux as my primary desktop operating system since 1998. OSX -- with the addition of a few GNU utilities -- has a very usable CLI and I feel right at home.

I bought my wife a Macbook in early 2007. Other than the superficial cracking on the thin plastic where you open the unit (endemic to that generation of white Macbook), it has performed great. I liked hers so much that in 2010 I picked up a 2007 Macbook myself, and am typing on it while taking a break from coding a routine to handle some mass changes on a farm of hundreds of storage appliances. I type all day, every day, and my Macbook does about half that work.

Please provide more details on the "empirical testing" of ASUS and Lenovo. If they truly are longer-lasting than my two six-year-old Macbooks which have been worth at least three Windows-based laptops apiece, then I am extremely interested. It's the amazing reliability of Apple's products that drew me to them. I don't need latest, greatest, or shiny anymore. I need reliable, reasonably quick, and comfortable to use.

system76

[Anonymous Coward]

https://www.system76.com/

Re:system76

[cab15625]

Just to clarify for the AC, system 76 sells/ships laptops, desktops, and servers with Ubuntu. If you are a linux user or feel like you might be ready to take the plunge, this is a good place to start. At least their systems are fully linux compatible. Even if you don't like ubuntu and have some other pet distribution, it has a better chance of working on one of these than if you get a windows laptop and flush the hard drive to install linux. Bonus: no windows tax, and no money to MS (except for possible hidden patent trolling on hardware or firmware).

Re:system76

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.pcspecialist.co.uk/laptop-computers/
Good deal, you can choose Windows 7, or "No operating system required" to spare 79 pounds. I have one for six months, serves me well with Debian Wheezy on board.

Re:system76

[clarkn0va]

The comment I'm replying to is a direct and correct response to the question in the story. How it got modded 0, Offtopic I'll never know.

Re:system76

[DancesWithRobots]

https://www.system76.com/

Like I said in an earlier post. McGraw Hill online courseware wouldn't let me log in simply because I wan running Linux. When I found a way around the courses log-in page, everything ran fine.

Re:system76

[AK Marc]

An A/C with a link and no description. I'm guessing the mod didn't want to see goatse yet again, so just modded it down and moved on.

Re:system76

[techhead79]

HR's tax website does the same thing. Firefox has this user agent changer add on. Once it's installed just Tools>Default User Agent>Browsers - Windows>Firefox.

Most sites will work just fine.

Re:system76

[Anonymous Coward]

(i am not the original ac)

system76 isn't the only linux laptop maker. There are many.

Furthermore, I'm guessing with turning to slashdot like this means the college bound kid can't find how to properly do a google search. I would suggest starting with "barebones laptop" or if you want something easy, "custom laptop".

The best is probably sager.
http://www.sagernotebook.com/

http://rjtech.com/
http://magicmicro.com/
http://www.powernotebooks.com/

Any company that does build to order will offer choice of OS, with some providing no OS or sometimes no hard drive if you want. As long as you don't want a huge brand name splashed across the shiny case, these laptops are better than the ones at best buy, fry's or Walmart.

Re:system76

[catchblue22]

I'm typing this from a recently purchased System76 Gazelle laptop, and the experience has been good so far. I am coming from running a Macbook Pro, which I had for several years. The mac was a nice machine, but have been getting creeped out by Apple's apparent slow drift towards the "post pc world". My iPad feels like a jail (perhaps more a luxury jail, but a jail nontheless) since I can only run what Apple allows, and I don't think I should have to jailbreak my own computer to gain proper control over it. Microsoft is far far worse, and I will never again buy an MS product. Their recent moves, specifically requiring UEFI secure boot on all computers sold with Windows 8, and requiring that it be turned on on all tablets with Windows sounds to me like a deliberate attempt to reduce my ability to choose computers and to run the operating system of my choice. If a computer maker needs to write their own implementation of UEFI, then they must test it with the OS that they will be running. If they don't test it adequately for Linux, then we will end up with situations like the recent Linux installations bricking Samsung laptops. It seems likely that computer makers won't adequately test their UEFI systems for minority operating systems. This therefore will reduce the inventory of laptops that will run Linux. .Microsoft's recent investment in Dell seems likely aimed to prevent Dell from selling tablet computers that can run Linux. Dell already sells Linux computers, and they seem to be a good candidate to make a non-android Linux tablet.

My choice to run a Linux laptop is partly political and partly a decision that I believe is in my own personal interest. I miss some things about my mac. The touchpad on my Macbook Pro was outstanding, and I really miss the way the Preview software on OSX deals with pdf files, specifically making a box selection on an existing pdf file and creating a new vector-based pdf from the boxed selection. I am not even sure this is possible on Linux, and it is at least difficult to do in Windows (perhaps using Illustrator?). However I have found I can do almost all the things I need to do in Linux, even if sometimes I have to search. The processor is an i7 so it is very fast. There is no real lag apparent in desktop graphics, even Unity. Overall I am happy I made the choice to move to Linux, and I hope more people will follow me.

Re:system76

[Vegemeister]

You paid $1500 for a laptop with a 1366x768 screen? You poor bastard.

Re:system76

[unixisc]

Thanks for listing these. I was really interested to know which laptops one could get pre-installed with something like PC-BSD, or a Linux of some flavor other than Ubuntu, but demonstrated to work w/ things like Wi-Fi. I'll go through this list

Re:system76

[unixisc]

Uh, none of the companies you mentioned list anything other than Windows 7 & 8 as what they offer. Very different from System 76

Re:System76

[unixisc]

When you say 'only Ubuntu', do they offer the choice of Ubuntu/Xubuntu/Lubuntu/Kubuntu, or just the one that comes w/ Unity?

Re:System76

[Patch86]

I think just standard Ubuntu. But the others are just a fully supported apt-get install kubuntu-desktop away.

MacBook or Dell

[MightyYar]

Get a Macbook and then put Windows 7 on it.

Dell also has a Windows 7 page.

I'm sure any business-friendly vendor will have the same if you poke around.

Re:MacBook or Dell

[MightyYar]

Replying to myself... Dell links to Windows 8 laptops from their Windows 7 page... ugh.

Still, they have Windows 7 laptops:
XPS 13
Their m5030 is in the stores.
Latitude 2xxx
Latitude E5xxx

Go to their Business site, select laptops, and check the box for Windows 7.

Re:MacBook or Dell

[msheekhah]

That is an old page. It refers to products with Windows 8 on it. I was hopeful.

Re:MacBook or Dell

[MightyYar]

If you're installing the OS yourself then you can choose almost any laptop for half the price.

Macbooks make very nice Windows machines, and they are +/- 10% of similarly-spec's Windows machines. The main additional expense would be the Windows 7 license, but he may already have one.

But if he's not in the installin' mood, I linked to the Dells.

Re:MacBook or Dell

[MightyYar]

Yeah, I replied to my own reply :)

Go here instead and check the "Windows 7" box.

Re:MacBook or Dell

[fermion]

This is what I have done for my Windows needs. I buy a Macbook, put whatever version of Windows on it. If you are not going to the current version, this is not expensive. A licensee for MS Windows 7 Pro can be had for about the same price as an upgrade from home to pro version. Oracle VM Virtual Box has served me well, but one can buy Parallels or VMware. Or just dual boot.

It works really well. On my old 17" Macbook the rendering software ran better than on the new PC laptops other were using. I have had Ubuntu and Chrome virtual machines as well. Back up the virtual machine regularly, and if MS Windows borks of it there is virus, just copy on a clean copy.

I am waiting for an affordable 512GB SSD and then I will go back to having a Windows VM on my everyday machine.

If cost is an issue, maybe a used machine? or go to you local computer store. My local store shows several windows 7 machines in stock for half the cost of a decent Macbook.

Re:MacBook or Dell

[MightyYar]

Ah, my apologies... I sometimes forget about people living outside the US when talking about prices.

Re:MacBook or Dell

[MightyYar]

In the US, at least, Macs are not really priced at a premium to similar brand-name PC hardware. People often make the mistake of comparing specs of the laptops without including size and weight.

Re:MacBook or Dell

[Jetstream]

Do NOT get the Dell M5030. There is a known design defect in the motherboard soldering that will likely lead to the laptop "bricking" in a year or two. Happened to my brother recently (1.5 yrs after purchase) and there are many others I found discussing this, ironically on a Dell user forum.

One with a Pentium I?

[Anonymous Coward]

Enough to run Linux pretty decent

eBay, Dell Outlet

[Lewie]

spring to mind immediately...

USED

[AcesDnied]

I would suggest finding a used Laptop if you want to avoid windows 8. I work for a used computer sales company and we have 40 to 50 laptops a month that we sell with windows 7, vista, and even XP.

Also check Craigslist.

If you aren't buying used I don't know where you might find somebody still selling machines with windows 7.

Dell.com

[Anonymous Coward]

You can go to Dell.com and they have the option to build your own laptop with the OS you want.

Newegg

[Anonymous Coward]

Newegg currently shows 32 Ultrabooks with Win7Pro. I call... bs.

Just use windows 8...

[oic0]

Install a third party start button program that also takes you straight to desktop. At that point you basically have windows 7, just dont hold your mouse cursor in a corner or that not so lucky charms BS appears. Wish there was a way to turn that off.

Re:Just use windows 8...

[TimCook7314]

Actually, please don't do this. M$ needs to know what a hunk of crap they've released reflected by low sales.

Re:Just use windows 8...

[SScorpio]

Are you using Start8 or Classic Shell? Both have options to disable the charm bar.

Re:Just use windows 8...

[linebackn]

Wish there was a way to turn that off.

I hear a nuke from orbit is fairly effective. Haven't had a chance to try that yet.

Re:Just use windows 8...

[AlphaWolf_HK]

I've been using windows 8 for a while (got it for free) and I'd have to say it is far from a "hunk of crap". Yes, metro sucks, but you don't have to use it, which is what GP suggests.

Some things I like about 8 are this: reduced memory/disk footprint, easier access to commonly used functions (mouse to the far bottom left, right click; works with start8 too, though some start menu replacements disable this useful feature) more efficient copy dialog that even shows instantaneous rather than average transfer rates (pretty nice feature to have, yet shockingly windows 8 is the only OS that does it) better explorer functions like e.g. "admin console here", and built in support for mounting iso's. With windows 7 you have to add these in on your own, with windows 8 they are already there.

If you want to show your distaste with metro, enable the customer experience reporting setting and just don't use it. They actually do make design decisions based on that.

Re:Just use windows 8...

[wolfemi1]

Tim Cook? You're hardly a disinterested third party. :)

Re:Just use windows 8...

[gl4ss]

they pretty much know how many people are actually using the usual start screen.
that's their internal userbase number.

the one that they report outside as installs is the amount of people who have had it active for at least one second.
the sales isn't the number of success because it's getting people to use the metro apps and the app store that is the goal - and the live tiles update mechanisms give them numbers on exactly how many people are using the system.

anyways - the question asker is approaching this the wrong way, if he wants an usable system he should be just asking how to make win8 behave like win7 and that is pretty easy, just go to ninite.com and make an installer with the stuff he wants (classic start menu at least, or go dl it directly). then he will never have to watch the metro side again. ok, there's couple of things he might need to watch it for like turning on installation of unsigned drivers(for arduino etc stuff) but that's doable as well on win8 so I haven't actually found anything that wouldn't work under win8 - even legacy windows apps run better(less opengl flickering, no need to run off decor etc) better under win8. win8 is actually good EXCEPT FOR THE FUCKING METRO FORCE FED SHIT. win8 is also cheaper due to them wanting to push the metro crap on as many people as possible(and quite well explains why every manufacturer was so easy to talk into switching fast).

(wp8 sdk wouldn't install on 7 thank you very much ms.. so that's why I had to switch - and no, it doesn't actually use any fucking thing that would make it necessary to run it in win8 apparently)

Re:Just use windows 8...

[AmiMoJo]

Do it and get a refund, or buy a Windows 7 laptop and don't cash in the Windows 8 upgrade voucher. Lost sales are impossible to quantify, but refunded sales or shipped but unused vouches can be counted easily.

Re:Just use windows 8...

[MightyMartian]

Well yes, you do have to use Metro. Every time you want to go to the Start menu, you end up in Metro land. Of course you're hopping in and out of all the time. It's just fucking ridiculous. It's like having two GUIs that have absolutely nothing to do with each other on the same system.

Re:Just use windows 8...

[steelfood]

reduced memory/disk footprint

Wait, what? Smaller disk footprint?

better explorer functions like e.g. "admin console here", and built in support for mounting iso's. With windows 7 you have to add these in on your own, with windows 8 they are already there.

With windows 8, you need to add the start button on your own. I'll take the start button over some little-used run cmd as admin anytime.

If you want to show your distaste with metro, enable the customer experience reporting setting and just don't use it. They actually do make design decisions based on that.

I have a better idea. Instead of we the end user put up with Microsoft's crap just so we can give them feedback, why not just give them feedback by not purchasing it at all.

Is that Stockholm syndrome I smell?

Re:Just use windows 8...

[UltraZelda64]

I fully agree.

Re:Just use windows 8...

[MightyMartian]

I have no problem doing that. I wasn't the one with the problem.

But I still find the effect jarring, and seeing as there is absolutely no advantage to Windows 8 on the hardware I currently own, I don't see any need to subject myself to it.

Re:Just use windows 8...

[shutdown -p now]

GP mentioned Start8 for a reason.

Re:Just use windows 8...

[AK Marc]

I paid $10 for my Win8. I agree with metro sucking but being optional. It's actually not too bad. You hit the Windows key and type the program you want. Win-"calc" enter and the calculator pops up faster that I could click it on the quickstart menu, let alone regular start menu. I use alt-tab whenever I accidentally metro myself, and that gives me a Win7 experience. Good enough for use, even if the metro is hiding, waiting for me to hover the mouse in the wrong spot or accidentally hit the Win key.

Re:Just use windows 8...

[Darinbob]

Microsoft might not know anyway. If it's anything like the past, Microsoft will get a fee for every PC sold whether or not Windows 8 is on it. Even if the PC makers put Linux on it then I suspect the PC makers will pay a fee to Microsoft if they want to keep their OEM status intact.

Re:Just use windows 8...

[Darinbob]

I don't hop in and out at all. I boot to Metro and then click the desktop rectangle (though I've been getting smarter and hitting firefox square instead lately). Then I never see Metro again until the next day.

Actually there are ways to boot straight to desktop even without a third party tool.

Re:Just use windows 8...

[Common Joe]

I'm trying to get this information out there: Microsoft told me they are not selling Windows 7 anymore to consumers. Period. End of story. Anything you see right now (like a retail copy of Windows 7) is simply overstock by that store. Very shortly, consumers really will have no choice but to get Windows 8. To grandparent: As others have said, install classic shell: http://www.classicshell.net/. I have been using Windows 8 for several weeks on my main computer and it is so much better with it. Among many great things it does is gets rid of the charm stuff unless you specifically want to go back there. You choose to go there, not the computer.

Re:Just use windows 8...

[Twinbee]

Does it allow aero for the GUI?

Re:Just use windows 8...

[sgtrock]

So I should spend even more money to get back basic functionality that has been in the UI since the very beginning?!? What have you been smoking?

Re:Just use windows 8...

[Common Joe]

Couchslug just pointed out to me that Microsoft is selling Windows 7 at the Microsoft Store. Either something has changed or both Microsoft and I were both being morons a few weeks ago. (I wouldn't exclude the latter possibility.) I thought I'd repost here just to correct my previous statement.

Re:Just use windows 8...

[Patch86]

As an answer to the question "Where can I buy a laptop which doesn't have Windows 8?", "Just buy one with Windows 8" is somewhat less than helpful...

Although seeing as we're on the subject, it does tickle me how many Microsoft fans are saying "it's no big deal, you can tweak Windows 8 and install one of dozens of 3rd party add ons to make it work like you want it to!" after years of saying "Linux is crap- who wants to spend time tweaking it and installing software to make it work how you want it to?". Not that Windows fans are a homogeneous group or anything like that, but it's still pleasingly ironic.

Have you actually looked?

[YrWrstNtmr]

Amazon has many. Just put in Windows 7 as one of the filters.

Downgrade Rights

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows 8 licensing includes downgrade rights. If you have the key and a Windows 7 disk you can re-install to Windows 7 with minimal problems. Double check to make sure this won't void your warranty though, if you care about that.

Re:Downgrade Rights

[coastal984]

Not so easy. Microsoft eff'd consumers with Windows 8 by embedding the keys in the BIOS - they are not use-ably retrievable. My shop used to clone PC batches by building a clean install of 7, then cloning it to others, and activating Windows with the key on the box. Not possible anymore - they are trying to force us into getting a volume license agreement, stating that cloning is a "right granted to volume license customers". Total crap by M$.

Re:Downgrade Rights

[omnichad]

That has nothing to do with using downgrade rights. You have to get downgrade media from the OEM, however.

http://www.microsoft.com/oem/en/licensing/sblicensing/pages/downgrade_rights.aspx

Re:Downgrade Rights

[Bomarc]

One problem with that: Actually getting the media from the OEM. I've not checked with Win 7, but you cannot get Win XP from any OEM. MS told them to no longer make it avaialble. They've done the same with Win 2K3. I had a damaged media - (at different times), both Win XP & Win 2K3, and had to go to eBay to get the media replaced (with the annoying "hardware").

Re:Downgrade Rights

[omnichad]

OK - it's a bit late for XP. Windows 7 is a two generations more recent.

Re:Downgrade Rights

[UltraZelda64]

The problem is, then Microsoft will not only count you as a Windows 7 customer/user, but also tally you in as a Windows 8 customer/user. Even if the entire reason for choosing to downgrade was to not have to touch (or count yourself as a user of) a steaming pile of shit in the first place. You're better off just getting a system with Win7 and not helping to improve Microsoft's Win8 stats. The next best solution would be to get a system with a "no OS" or "FreeDOS" option and getting a retail Win7 disc to install... avoid the dual-counting, crapware and other garbage, but Microsoft charges an arm and a leg for it.

This is exactly the reason I do not use Windows. Microsoft is crooked, they gouge your ass no matter what you do.

Re:Downgrade Rights

[Bing Tsher E]

Not really. Vista isn't really a 'generation' just like ME wasn't a 'generation.' Simply put, it's a stillborn.

Another alternative.

[murph]

http://zareason.com/

Lenovo

[b_dover]

Order it an you can choose 7 instead of 8

Re:Lenovo

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll second this. We had to buy a laptop for my kid to have for high school, which the school didn't bother to inform us about until win 7 laptops had disappeared from the local retail chains. They also informed us that any 32 bit or 64 bit OS was acceptable, but that their tech support did not support Linux, OSX, or win 8. If you use them you are on your own. We found almost any Lenovo (excepting pre-built specials) could be shipped with win 7. Bonuses were that it was cheaper than local retail, and shipped with much less crapware.

Re:Lenovo

[conrad_halling]

Order it an you can choose 7 instead of 8

Two weeks ago I bought a Lenovo T530 with Windows 7 for my stepfather, who didn't want Windows 8. I personally run Windows 8 Pro on my MacBook Pro using Parallels Desktop, and it runs fine.

Re:Lenovo

[Marxist Hacker 42]

My brand new Lenovo Win8 machine is Silver.

Downgrade after the purchase

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're technically inclined to do so, many laptop manufacturers have a downgrade path. See this article on LifeHacker regarding this: http://lifehacker.com/5974318/downgrade-your-new-windows-8-computer-to-windows-7-for-free

Buy in the small business section

[metrometro]

The big PC maker's online storefronts have a consumer and business section. Your milage may vary but the business section of say, Dell or Lenovo, tilts towards good build quality, OS flexibility, and less crapware. Finding a Win7 machine is no problem at all.

http://shop.lenovo.com/us/laptops/thinkpad/x-series/x230

Re:Buy in the small business section

[metrometro]

I linked to an older model. The current Lenovo ultra is 1600x900.

http://shop.lenovo.com/us/laptops/thinkpad/x-series/x1ultrabook

Clevo / Sager

[oic0]

Clevo based laptops typically come configured however you want and lacking whatever you don't want. No OS? no problem. You can also get em without hard drive, memory, chip, video card, whatever. They can be bought bare bones or with as much as you want in em. Also, the screen selection on them is usually much better. You can opt for much higher resolution than youll get in a dell etc...

Re:Clevo / Sager

[Smerta]

This is exactly the route I went last year (Sager). I had 2 sealed copies of Windows 7 Ultimate (1 now, maybe I should save the other until the Windows 8 virus has spread fully and Windows 7 is no longer available...)

BTW, the machine is a beast (I do PCB / CAD / embedded development) and the thing just hums. Great build quality too.

Also I bought a 2nd (Sager) machine a few months ago, this time with Windows 7 installed, and it had exactly zero, yes read that again, ZERO, crapware installed. There are plenty of Sager resellers, I'm not here to plug any particular one, but it's nice to be free of the whole Dell / ASUS / experience (stickers, desktop shortcuts, trials, bloatware and nagware).

Just get 8 and install Classic Shell

[neubian]

Microsoft has a way of punishing those who do not fall in line. If you're going to use Windows, you're better off playing nice with them. Down the line, you'll want to install/use something that is no longer supported on Win7, and you'll regret not getting 8 now.

Re:Just get 8 and install Classic Shell

[DrKludge]

I think it is pretty clear that you are not better off with Windows 8. MS only started punishing people with wanting to stay on Windows XP 2 years ago. 10 years after that version was release. Unfortunately MS is punishing people with this new version.

Do you use the start menu often?

[Kelbear]

I never do.

Really, the biggest change in Windows 8, is that I have to press the windows key when I login. Nothing else really changed in the OS for me. I still just hit win+r for the "Run" prompt, or click a shortcut in the number of places I've aggregated them that make much more sense than Win 7's start menu layout. I got Windows 8 because it was just $15 for a valid windows license.

I'm in full agreement that there's no reason to upgrade from windows 7 to windows 8. But if you get windows 8, it's not the end of the world (unless you're really married to the start menu). Or hell, if you really need the start menu, just go download it and install it. If you're on slashdot you should know how to do this. This askslashdot is kind of a no-brainer.

Re:Do you use the start menu often?

[Nimey]

*eyeroll*

Ctrl-Esc does the same thing. You just don't get the Windows-key shortcuts that you've been missing all these years, like always.

Re:Do you use the start menu often?

[gl4ss]

I use it just about 20 times per day. too many programs to pin them and too many that I use often enough that using run is a chore for everything.
but.. classic start takes care of that just fine. it even boots straight to metro. also had to run couple of hoops to install some usb drivers(unsigned) but that's about it. though I'm sure there's some niche things that aren't included in 8 that are available under 7..

Re:Do you use the start menu often?

[AmiMoJo]

I do use it a fair bit, so much so that even on Windows 7 I installed Classic Start Menu to get back the nice tree layout under "All Programs...". The search box is very handy too, allowing me to press the Windows key and type the first few characters of the app I want. Windows 8 breaks it so you now need to go to two difference places to search for apps and for things like settings.

That isn't the only reason to dislike Windows 8. Simple and common tasks like shutting the machine down are now several clicks away. I can live with it, but given the choice I'll take Windows 7.

Re:Do you use the start menu often?

[Kaenneth]

Does ctrl-esc work for that?

I'm actually using a keyboard without a 'Windows' (or generic OS) key (IBM-OEM Model M)

Re:Do you use the start menu often?

[jones_supa]

Anything that requires a "Windows" key is a big, HUGE deal-breaking fatal flaw for people with Lexmark Model M13 keyboards (the ones with both buckling-spring keys AND a real Trackpoint), because they pre-date the Windows keys by a couple of years.

So fucking what. Should we really avoid the use of the Windows key in operating systems just because a bunch of museum keyboards that don't have it?

Re:Do you use the start menu often?

[Praedon]

Here's the link for installing a Windows Start Menu into Windows 8. http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/make-windows-8-suck-less-with-classic-shell/

I never do.

Really, the biggest change in Windows 8, is that I have to press the windows key when I login. Nothing else really changed in the OS for me. I still just hit win+r for the "Run" prompt, or click a shortcut in the number of places I've aggregated them that make much more sense than Win 7's start menu layout. I got Windows 8 because it was just $15 for a valid windows license.

I'm in full agreement that there's no reason to upgrade from windows 7 to windows 8. But if you get windows 8, it's not the end of the world (unless you're really married to the start menu). Or hell, if you really need the start menu, just go download it and install it. If you're on slashdot you should know how to do this. This askslashdot is kind of a no-brainer.

Re:Do you use the start menu often?

[Wookact]

I use the start button all the frigging time. I have to talk my customers through some simple steps before I can connect and the start button is one of thsoe first steps. It is one of those things where I can say click the start button and 99% of the people are going to know what I want. I ask them to hit Windows+R on the keyboard and it is a ten minute ordeal getting them to do that.

Re:Do you use the start menu often?

[Nimey]

HAHAHAHAHA

No, I've had a genuine gray-label 1391401 as my daily driver (made in 1988) for a little over ten years now. I've had a 104-key USB Unicomp at work for almost six. I've thought about getting a Unicomp for home too now that more things are using the Windows key, but that probably won't happen for a while.

Re:Do you use the start menu often?

[Miamicanes]

Things that "Use" the Windows key aren't a problem. The post to which I replied seems to indicate that you literally MUST have a Windows key in order to log in to Windows 8. Hence, its characterization as "deal-breaking". If the opportunity cost of Windows 8 is being forced to give up my M13 (or clutter my desk with a second keyboard whose only purpose is to give me a Windows key to press so I can log in), Microsoft can rot in hell. At least, until the day somebody makes a mechanical keyboard with both a Windows key *and* a REAL Trackpoint.

Re:Do you use the start menu often?

[Kelbear]

It does. You can also just left click in the upper-left hand corner too.

Re:Do you use the start menu often?

[Darinbob]

No, you really don't need the Windows key in Windows 8 either. It does make things easier though, if you don't use the windows key you may end up using the mouse a lot more than you would otherwise. In Windows 7 that key was mostly pointless and few people learned that it could be used for shortcuts. In Windows 8 it's just less pointless than it was, however it is still obscure to discover if you've never used the key before.

Re:Do you use the start menu often?

[maxwells_deamon]

you can quickly build shortcut buttons for the desktop to do reboot and shutdown (google is your friend) then you can add them to the start screen as well by browsing to the shortcut and selecting pin to start (or something close to that).

Should this be in a standard install, of course, but it is easy to fix.

Re:Do you use the start menu often?

[Thugthrasher]

I use a ton of applications. I use most of them side-by-side. Amazingly enough, I do it quite often with Windows 8. I used the Desktop, rather than the Start Screen. I don't go into the start screen. I even keep the most common applications that I use on the desktop of my right screen, so it doesn't even take me an extra click when I start up. For me, using Windows 8 is nearly identical to using Windows 7, with the main differences being that I have a taskbar on both my monitors and when I hit the Windows Key and start typing the name of an application I want to use (if it isn't on my taskbar), I have to look in the top left of the screen instead of the bottom left..

Re:Do you use the start menu often?

[Thugthrasher]

Shutting down and rebooting take all of 1 extra click, using the quickest ways to shut down (without creating your own shortcut) on both OSes.

Amazon

[Lester67]

I'll reiterate Newegg, and add Amazon.com. Their list of top 10 selling laptops for Christmas, none of the top 5 were Win8, and all of those models are still for sale.

Re:Amazon

[AK Marc]

And maybe the problem is that Win8 is more intuitive, but everyone was "trained" wrong by all the previous versions.

Re:Amazon

[Patch86]

I see you're channelling the disembodied spirit of Steve Jobs there.

"The device is the most perfect and intuitive design the world has ever seen. It's just that the users are using it wrong."

Not that it ever did Apple much harm...

Re:Amazon

[AK Marc]

Given the assertions that Metro is more intuitive for children (the Fisher-Price OS, I've heard it called), that seems to be borne by fact and actual study, rather than intuitive guesses and lock-in retraining of users. So there is still that.

Check the custom builders

[halfEvilTech]

Builders such as Digital Storm, iBuyPower, and CyberPower PC among others still make build to order laptops with your choice of Windows 7, 8, Linux or even the option to leave the Hard Drive blank.

System76

[Kryai]

I just purchased a laptop from https://www.system76.com/ their laptops come only with Ubuntu, had excellent customization options, and reasonable pricing (why is it so hard to customize laptops nowadays, when did this happen =\ ) My colleague recommended them and I get my laptop Monday so I don't have first hand experience yet, but I just had to make this decision and that's what I ended with selecting.

Thinkpad

[oGMo]

Get a Thinkpad. I just got a W530 with a 1920x1080 screen, one of the few you can find outside Apple. It has great Linux support, even down to the silly fingerprint reader. I can easily get 7 hours or so on the battery with the recommended tweaks. There's a whole wiki just for Thinkpad stuff.

It ships with Windows 7, but you never have to boot into Windows. You can blow away the whole drive, "recovery" and "boot" partitions, and never look back. It has a conventional BIOS in addition to UEFI (disabled by default; leave it that way), so you shouldn't have any issues there.

It's a tank, it's not terribly sexy like an ultrabook, but it's great if you want a desktop-fast Linux-friendly workstation laptop.

Re:Thinkpad

[DirePickle]

What's your opinion of the new keyboards? Are you upgrading from a previous Thinkpad? If so, any opinions as to changes in quality, keyboard or otherwise?

Re:Thinkpad

[damn_registrars]

I'm not the OP here but I am a thinkpad guy so I thought I'd offer my $.02. I recently upgraded from a very much battle-worn R32 to a new T510. The former was a value series but indisputably an IBM thinkpad. The latter is a Lenovo from the regular line-up. I've owned both since new, the latter of which I ordered custom-built.

What's your opinion of the new keyboards

I think the new keyboard is still great, easily better than any other on the market for a laptop. Response is great, a nice tactile feel. Keys are 95% size IIRC and no problem to type on. I type quite a bit - just finished my PhD thesis - so I probably know my keyboards better than most. I do have a couple IBM M series full-size keyboards (with trackpoint, of course) that I use for heavy-duty typing but there are times when a silent keyboard is called for and the T510 is great for that time.

My only complaint on the keyboard is that the finish leaves something to be desired. I have naturally oily skin which seems to eat the finish off fairly quick. My left mouse button, for example, looks quite a bit older than it actually is. I do keep a silicone skin on my keyboard most of the time, FWIW.

If so, any opinions as to changes in quality, keyboard or otherwise?

All in all, I would say my T510 is still a great unit. Hardware wise my only gripe is that this particular model (or any T510) doesn't have the ultrabay, and hence is limited to the system battery (though I do have the 9 cell). I can also tell you I have dropped my thinkpad from table height - while running - more than once already and that has caused absolutely no noticeable damage whatsoever to any part of the system.

Re:Thinkpad

[oGMo]

I was pretty hesitant about the new keyboard, since I just got one of the lower-end laptops for someone else with the older ("blue enter") keyboard and really liked it, but hadn't used enough to grow acclimated, so I can't really compare. The pictures of the new keyboard looked a lot like the MacBook 2008 laptop which I'd been using (it died) which I wasn't thrilled about.

Actually using it though it's not at all the same. The keys have a nice inward curve to them, they're solid, full-sized, and I haven't had any trouble typing (didn't even have to get used to it). Escape is nice and reachable, it's got PgUp/PgDn as part of the arrow keypad, and I don't even have to curl my thumb to reach the left Alt. These are the things I've noticed. I haven't noticed any missing keys or annoyances during regular typing.

Oh and of course the TrackPoint rocks, as always. The gritty touchpad I'm not thrilled about, but it works and I don't use it that much anyway (because TrackPoint!). All the input stuff is highly configurable (if a bit arcane) under Linux.

Re:Thinkpad

[couchslug]

Also has Ultrabay goodness, making adding more storage effortless.
Buy caddy, insert hd in caddy, toss caddy in Thinkpad.

Dual-booters can do standard OS installations on each hard disk, then select between them on boot by pressing F12.

Re:Thinkpad

[DirePickle]

The T510 had the 'classic'-style Thinkpad keyboard. The T530s and W530s have the new chiclet keyboards. Was that 'T510' above a typo? (Though, I have a T61p and have thought of moving to a T520 or W520, and knowing that the keyboard didn't suck yet then is also good).

Re:Thinkpad

[oGMo]

No, but oddly, it has a PrtSc key between the right Ctrl and Alt. I have not verified if this acts as a SysRq key that Linux recognizes (PrtSc/SysRq are usually the same key), but if so this is arguably a lot more useful. Pause/Break is usually just the same as Ctrl+S.

There are also Home/End/Insert/Delete keys up above the backspace key, but I don't find them useful. Presumably you could remap any of these to keys you do find useful. Fn-modified keys (except maybe spacebar) are recognized as keysyms in X.

DreamSpark (formerly MSDNAA)

[Nichotin]

Do you have access to DreamSpark via your school? I study IT in Norway, and with my Microsoft DreamSpark login I can get a good bunch of their operating systems for free. If you do, then get a Windows 8 laptop (just make sure Windows 7 compatible drivers are available), then install Windows 7 from DreamSpark.

Another option is to install Start8 from Stardock or similar, if it is the new interface stuff you don't like. I found Windows 8 quite likable with a proper start menu.

Re:DreamSpark (formerly MSDNAA)

[redengin]

As someone that recently installed windows 7 on a windows 8 laptop, do not expect it to be straightforward. My windows 7 installation media from digitalriver lacked the necessary drivers to get either lan or wifi working (and usb was flakey, but finally worked). Once USB figured itself out I was able to download the wifi drivers and proceed after getting the windows 7 updates.

Why Win7 fan so against Win8?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you are a fan of Windows 7, why are you so against Windows 8? Just click on the "Desktop" tile on the start screen and boom, it's Windows 7. There really aren't that many differences in user experience other than the start menu is now a start screen. You can continue to use Win8 the same way you used Win7.

Re:Why Win7 fan so against Win8?

[Anonymous Coward]

If one is a student and has DreamSpark/MSDNAA access, perhaps Windows Server 2012 might be an acceptable alternative? You still have the tiles staring at you when you hit the start button, but desktop icons, alt-tab, and other ways of launching stuff still work.

Plus, Windows Server 2012 comes with some nice toys to play with, such as deduplication, and it also offers a decent backup program out of the box. Of course, MSE doesn't work on it, but SCEP 2012 (same thing, except with enterprise reporting tools) does.

Re:Why Win7 fan so against Win8?

[armanox]

Personally, I find Windows 8 to be ugly. It looks horrible compared to Windows Vista/7, Mac OS X, GNOME/KDE/Unity, etc.

Re:Why Win7 fan so against Win8?

[jones_supa]

Everything in Windows 8 looks like they are just single-color HTML <div>'s with some margins splattered around.

Compare also the boot logo of Win7 to the amateurish logo of Win8.

Re:Why Win7 fan so against Win8?

[UltraZelda64]

Why does everyone seem to forget that god damn "Charms" bar and those fucking Metro-style system notifications when they try to claim the Windows 8 desktop is no different than the one in Windows 7? Or the lack of start menu which requires third-party programs to bring back, unless you want to deal with that shitty start screen designed as the basis for Metro and an interface for touchscreens? Or the fact that they literally gutted core Windows system dialogs and replaced them with Metro versions? Windows 8 is far from being "not much different" than Windows 7.

Re:Why Win7 fan so against Win8?

[armanox]

Exactly my point.

Re:Why Win7 fan so against Win8?

[21mhz]

All I care about is whether it still runs Norton Commander.
You can keep your Start menu, god damned novelty seekers.

PCs For Everyone

[Daetrin]

http://www.pcsforeveryone.com/

I've gotten one computer from them, and it was a mostly decent experience. (The card reader didn't work because of some weird incompatibility issue. I've forgotten the details now so i can't say if the problem was "obvious" enough that they should have warned me about it when i put the components together.)

A friend of mine has gotten a couple computers from them. One of them ended up having a flaky hard drive or something that was causing her some aggravation, but they seemed pretty reasonable with their support for the problem.

I believe all of the above computers were desktops, but it seems unlikely the laptop side of their business would be significantly different

Windows 8 is not a big deal.

[The MAZZTer]

I had the RC for a while. If you absolutely hate Metro you can download tools to can it and give yourself a reasonable replacement Start Menu, though the best ones cost money. StartMenu8 was the best of the free ones IIRC, while Stardock's Start8 was the best of the best but is like $20 or $30 or something like that. Then it's just like using Windows 7 with some minor enhancements (it doesn't get a lot of love but I love the Ribbon UI, and now Explorer has it).

Re:Windows 8 is not a big deal.

[donatzsky]

But not nearly as good as most of the alternatives, if you want it to work like Win 7. If you still long for the days of XP and earlier, though, then go for it.

Ars Technica has tested some of them here: http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/01/help-ive-got-windows-8-and-i-miss-my-start-menu/

Re:Windows 8 is not a big deal.

[Githaron]

... while Stardock's Start8 was the best of the best but is like $20 or $30 or something like that. ...

It is $4.99. Where are you getting your information?

Alienware

[DiSKiLLeR]

I know of the top of my head that Alienware laptops still come with Windows 7. Possibly others too.

And as many others have pointed out, get Windows 8 Professional and use your downgrade rights. You just need Windows 7 Professional media and you can install it instead. (You want to reinstall any laptop yourself anyway so its clean and without bloatware and factory provided viruses.)

Re:It doesn't matter

[Anonymous Coward]

- You don't save significant money buying an "Ubuntu" laptop or whatever, but you severely limit your choices.

Not true!
I configured my laptop here: http://www.mysn.de/ and paid ~80 EUR less because I chose the "No windows" option. Kubuntu was installed in a few minutes from a USB drive and I'm very happy with it. The thing boots in a few seconds to the login, significantly faster than your run-of-the-mill smartphone. Just the keyboard is a bit of a let-down.

New?

[DogDude]

Is there a particular reason the submitter needs a brand, new laptop? The used PC market is massive. You can easily get a refurbished Intel i5 with Windows 7 for under $400.

With that being said, all of you people who buy new PC's all of the time: please keep doing so! Your purchases allow me to always have access to a strong, steady supply of very, very cheap computers. I don't remember paying more than $200 for a desktop, or $500 for a high end laptop in the last ten years, thanks to your generosity!

Re:New?

[jones_supa]

I pretty much always buy my laptops used.

Botique Manufacturers

[thoth]

I'm a notebook fan - need the portability for various reasons - and have bought from a few places.

If you want Windows, try Velocity Micro http://www.velocitymicro.com/ and look into their NoteMagix line. I just checked and you can pick between various Windows 7 and 8 flavors.

Or perhaps Sager Notebooks http://www.sagernotebook.com/index.php I bought a gaming notebook from them 3 years ago and it is still going strong (although I upgraded it to Windows 8 and swapped the HD for an SSD since then).

Or try System76, I bought a linux notebook from them and was happy with it. http://www.system76.com/

Re:Botique Manufacturers

[jones_supa]

I'm a notebook fan

Are you the fan of the thermal solution for the CPU/GPU?

Re:Sager

[Nolas]

Sager has a bunch that you can configure with Windows 7. However, quite frankly, this all reminds me of the Vista hate that was perpetrated by people who had not even used it.

ding ding ding! We have a winner ladies and gents!

Downgrade?

[snakernetb]

I thought you could freely downgrade to Windows 7? I remember reading something about that a while back. It might be worth looking into.

Re:Downgrade?

[snakernetb]

http://www.howtogeek.com/133168/how-to-downgrade-windows-8-pro-to-windows-7/

SD, FW, and Outlets!

[XiaoMing]

As great as the 'Egg is, they tend to be overpriced for everyday purchasing.

If you can wait:
My best suggestion is to get an account at fatwallet (a coupon/deal aggregator and forums site), and set up a "topic alert" where you get emails sent to you whenever a good deal with a specific keyword (I used "i5" as well as "14" "14.1" for my keywords for my last lappy). Also frequently visit slickdeals as they have a nicer layout and faster response time for sales of limited quantity.

It's usually these deal aggregator sites that pick up the best limited quantity sales of clearances (which will almost always be Win7 nowadays). And this will include anything good from the 'Egg.

If you are lucky
Outlets! One of the greatest things about outlets is the option to buy laptops that people have ordered, built, but then cancelled. These are "New" (as opposed to the dented box, or refurbs) on the outlet, and often come hundreds cheaper than buying completely brand new.
Outlets also have sales of 20-30+% off that will be picked up by SD and FW.

Of course, finding one of these takes a bit of patience as well as luck, but that's how I got my most recent lappy.

MacBook Pro

[DaMattster]

I honestly think that you should go with a MacBook Pro because Windows runs very well in a virtual machine on it. You have the best of both worlds at your finger tips. I really like my MacBook! I have a VHD with Windows 7 installed and I use VirtualBox to run it. No problems and very fast.

Refurb from eBay

[BoRegardless]

Some great deals can be had on refurb'd demos or off lease units for a fraction of the price of a new machine.

All good quality laptops last many years at this point, so wouldn't worry about lifetime.

But I would put in an SSD post haste.

Chromebook?

[Anonymous Coward]

Buy a chromebook and load it with Ubuntu? caveat - your school uses Windows only programs - then I guess Windows 8 it is.

  "The windows PHONE isn't SELLING. we blew all this R&D money, what do we do?!!" I know - graft it on to the front of a desktop and get rid of the start menu to make the computer look really user friendly..then immitate schizophrenic behavior by having half the apps still open up or show updates in a desktop. Make our web browser behave differently depending on whether you are using it in Metro or Desktop mode. Hide all of the application icons and toolbars so that people have to spend 10 minutes right clicking on their apps in obscure places to see if any "secret" menus pop up with all of the options we all used to be able to access in 30 seconds. ..when a set of buttons finally slides into view then we have to be able to read heiroglyphics or guess at what each of the really modernist looking metro buttons do. "What does this round PLUS do George? Err...I dunno Fred push it an' find out!"

Try to find the PRINT button in Windows mail, I dare you - I finally just told my grandparents, "Press CTRL-P" "Oh gee, thanks!"

Microsoft has been writing software for 30 years now and they can't make an Email client that renders HTML messages correctly?? Give me a break. I know every other iteration of Windows is a badly baked beta that we all get the privlige of paying for but come on guys, people actually have to use these things. I guess it doesn't matter as long as it has the all-mighty "app store"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRKIDdIaFyE

How hard have you looked?

[jamesmusik]

HP has 8 current (i.e., not on clearance) laptops with Windows 7, most of which do not involve downgrade rights.

You can't

[sproketboy]

and your IP has been reported to Balmer. ;)

If funds permit buy a WIn 7 Oem Disk

[future assassin]

http://ncix.com/products/?sku=45271&vpn=GFC-02050&manufacture=Microsoft&promoid=1312

Re:Just use windows 8...Pirate 7

[Jeng]

Sure Microsoft isn't just working to get paid twice?

Once for the Windows 8 license that the oem pays for and once for the Windows 7 that the customer puts on it for twice the price the oem paid for Windows 8.

So screw that, the pirated copies of Windows 7 are getting much better, just go with that.

Or just f'ing use Win 8...

[The Dancing Panda]

Seriously. It's the same, with a small UI change. The Start Menu is now accessed by moving your mouse to bottom left corner of the screen, and it's redesigned in a tile format. Other than that small change (which people make way too big a deal of), and moving the Control Panel to the settings menu (bottom right corner, click Settings), it works exactly the same, in my experience.

Re:Or just f'ing use Win 8...

[Common Joe]

And having two interfaces (Metro and Desktop). More options are limited from the Metro unless you run something directly from the command line. Geez. I'd hate to see what your definition of a major change is.

Project Sputnik

[pyrokey3]

Dell makes many great laptops that aren't Windows 8. Such as, the XPS 13 Laptop which was just part of the new Project Sputnik. This was a Dell project when they wanted to manufacture a laptop that ran natively with Ubuntu for developers: XPS 13 Laptop Developer Edition

If you aren't a developer or you don't want Ubuntu 12.04, you can buy the same laptop with Windows 7: XPS 13 Laptop Windows 7 The XPS 13 Laptop is perfect for school use with its fast start time.

If this still isn't for you, try this page: Dell Windows 7 Laptops

Windows 8 not much different

[onkelonkel]

At the risk of not actually answering the question you asked, why not use Windows 8? One click and you are on the desktop, and the experience is roughly the same as windows 7. If that one click is too much effort, install Classic Shell, and get almost exactly the same experience as windows 7. It works for me (YMMV).

Re:Windows 8 not much different

[Sir_Eptishous]

Nice BÖC sig there.

ibuypower.com

[musikit]

see title

did i end up on Ehow.com ?!?

[hurfy]

Get out of the stores with 3 choices, perhaps?

here
http://www.walmart.com/ip/HP-14-G4-2149se-Butterfly-Blossom-Design-Laptop-PC-with-AMD-A6-4400M-Processor-and-Windows-7-Home-Premium-with-Windows-8-Upgrade-Option-bundled-with/21191020

Newegg had 144 hits (lots of refurb, but better than craigslist suggested below!) on win 7 home premium alone.
Dell, Tigerdirect, even Walmart all had them.

I think this was meant to be posted next year...... ...and all those refurbs will still be there, even if new isn't....

Re:did i end up on Ehow.com ?!?

[Synerg1y]

People buy laptops from Wal-Mart? Does it really matter at that point what's on it?

Re:did i end up on Ehow.com ?!?

[Bing Tsher E]

I bought a laptop from Radio Shack recently.

It was sort of an impulse buy. But it was priced right, believe it or not.

Windows 7 vs Windows 8 sales

[linebackn]

It would be interesting to see how sales of Windows 7 vs Windows 8 compare. So many chairs would be thrown if it was discovered there were a sudden uptake in business class computers with Windows 7.

But since the submitter didn't seem to know they still exist, it would seem Microsoft is doing a good job trying to erase Windows 7.

System76

[Hobadee]

...makers of Linux laptops. If you don't want Linux, get a System76 laptop and install Win7.

Before you ditch Windows 8

[gsgriffin]

Try a convertible like the Lenovo Yoga. I got one for my daughter off at college, and she LOVES it....she had been on windows 7 ever since it came out. When you start using a laptop with a touch-screen and Windows 8, it all makes sense and is really something great. A windows 8 laptop without a touch screen doesn't work for me either.

Re:Before you ditch Windows 8

[jbolden]

Exactly. Windows 8 is designed for newer hardware. I don't know why people insist on using Windows 7 hardware with Windows 8 and grading Windows 8 based on how well it drives Windows 7 hardware. Though it would be nice if Microsoft were stricter as well.

Re:Before you ditch Windows 8

[Darinbob]

Because the newer features like touch screens are expensive. Especially if you're not on a laptop and want to keep using your regular LCD monitor.

Re:Before you ditch Windows 8

[jbolden]

Deskop is a shrinking share of the market. There isn't much advantage in upgrading the OS for a legacy hardware desktop. In terms of upcoming laptops, it isn't really that much more expensive for touch. The real cost is the adjustable hinge to let the screen go to tablet form and that's about $150 even in quantity. OK so it costs $200 extra.

Buy direct - Dell, Lenovo etc. still offer Win7

[tlhIngan]

Buy direct with customizations.

Last I checked, you could go and build a Dell laptop and choose Windows 7. You may have to use the business line of laptops, but they all give that option.

And there's always Apple. Who I think still only provides Win7 drivers - I'm not sure they've got a huge demand for Win8 (though people have done Win8).

There's also a bunch of smaller builders who do Linux PCs...

Re:Buy direct - Dell, Lenovo etc. still offer Win7

[CanHasDIY]

Last I checked, you could go and build a Dell laptop and choose Windows 7. You may have to use the business line of laptops, but they all give that option.

I'm curious as to how Dell's recent decision to go private would affect that possibility...

Thoughts?

Re:Buy direct - Dell, Lenovo etc. still offer Win7

[PRMan]

I'm curious as to how Dell's recent decision to go private would affect that possibility...

Thoughts?

Microsoft will force them to stop offering Windows 7 to increase Windows 8 sales?

Zoostorm

[FyreMoon]

Zoostorm laptops are available without operating system and come with all the drivers ready for you to load Windows of your choice, etc.

A shining review

[Weaselmancer]

"It's really not that bad"

That's the kind of thing someone says when they're hungry and eating stale crackers or something. "You know, after the first ten of these they don't suck so bad."

And this is about the best thing I've heard people say about Windows 8. You don't hear a lot of people saying "this thing freaking rocks and I love it".

Re:A shining review

[Eskarel]

Windows 8 rocks, it's faster and more responsive on the same hardware when compared to Windows 7(at least that's my personal experience). The start screen however is an abomination which, with appropriate use of the keyboard becomes substantially less annoying.

Re:A shining review

[Weaselmancer]

Ok thank you. I haven't heard anyone say anything really positive about Win8 yet. Now I know what to look for.

Re:A shining review

[Eskarel]

It really is a nice OS, and if you can accept that you won't be using the mouse very much to navigate around it because the "must use touch" has ruined that experience, it's not even irritating. There's even some value to some of the "create native apps for websites" stuff that's moved in from the tablet world. The big issue is that people load it, and try to find the start menu and it's not there and they get grumpy. Then when they eventually find the start menu they can't find their apps and when they work out how to search it uses clumsy non intuitive mouse movements, especially on dual screen. Your first few minutes of the OS show you all of the horrible mistakes that were made. Most people won't learn all the keyboard shortcuts and will either hate the OS or install stuff to bring back the old look and miss out on some of the new things. Microsoft seems to think that people will learn to use it and love it, I have my doubts.

With a keyboard though, it's actually quite nice, press the win key and start typing, you find your apps, win+x opens a neat little system admin menu, win+f opens file search, plus a whole bunch of others. The "touch and mouse work the same" was an idiotic decision, I get why they did it, but I still believe it's a fundamental OS. Underneath all that though, they've improved the OS quite dramatically. It was also the easiest in place upgrade I've ever done for Windows as well as being the cheapest windows upgrade I've ever bought.

System76

[green_abishi]

System76 sells good hardware with Linux pre-installed. I've been using a Gazelle Professional for a few months now and am happy with it. 15.6" 1920x1080 screen, i7-3630QM@2.4Ghz, 8gb ddr3@1600Mhz, 256gb 6Gb/s ssd, ~$1200. https://www.system76.com/

Re:Is it normal ?

[Samantha Wright]

If you swap out Explorer on Windows 8 with a Windows 7 one (possibly slightly modified; I haven't tried it), you'll get a Windows 7 experience. The other differences between 7 and 8 are infinitesimal. Metro completely disappears. (Except for things like the session manager, which are really just decorated to look like Metro.) This is what (at least some of) the "third party start menus" actually do, which is why you can't keep the ribbon in Explorer if you install them.

The result is really best described as Windows 7 SP2. Not an inferior product in any sense, although working around the modified files may require a bit of effort when it's time to update.

DIY, Of Course!

[CanHasDIY]

Why not build your own, Ben Heck style?

Yes, I realize how madly impractical that is, but you have to admit, you would more than likely have the bitchin-est lappy anyone at your school has ever seen!

System 76

[cyberspittle]

Please buy hardware from a Linux friendly vendor. System76 is one I know of

Re:Is it normal ?

[Fishchip]

Don't go ruining another great Slashdot Win8-bashing thread so early. That's the only reason I can think of for the existence of this thread because it was over with the guy who said 'Wipe it and install Win7'. Really, is that so much of an ordeal over finding a new lappy retail without Win8?

Ubuntu..

[Paracelcus]

Problem Solved!

Just download a start button substitute.

[gestalt_n_pepper]

Windows 8 is pretty tolerable if you know and do a few things.

1) If you can't find something, just type the name and it will probably show up as an icon.

2) Properties are at the bottom of the screen when you right-click and icon.

3) Move the mouse in diagonally from the left corner to get the stupid "menu."

4) Immediately download a start button substitute like classic shell.

Once you dig down, it's windows 7.

Microsoft apparently doesn't treat the acquired knowledge of their products by millions of users and developers is the extraordinarily valuable asset that it was. As Windows 8 continues to circle the drain, it's possible that even Microsoft's management may be getting this lesson. If so, expect Windows 8 "Classic" or "Business" or something. If they're just too collectively nutty to admit they made a mistake, well, Linux is a great thing, eh?

Re:Is it normal ?

[sumdumass]

Nah, it wasn't over with that. Laptops are funny with their somewhat dedicated and slightly modified hardware and there might be options that windows 7 drivers simply aren't available for. I've ran into this quite a bit when I have downgraded a laptops.

Sometimes you can find a reference driver from the manufacturer of the chipset and change a few things to recognize the version of windows you are using, and sometimes you spend more time then it is worth. It is almost easier to just go to a company that has a division dedicated to business and you will find laptops with several different windows versions. Usually it will have one you want but you are limited to the specs they offer.

Simple Fix

[Deathlizard]

1) Buy the laptop you want with Win8 on it.
2) Download Classic Shell

The only big interface change is the Metro Start Menu. everything else in desktop mode is what you know from Windows 7. If you don't want to deal with Metro, Classic shell will get rid of that for you.

Use Windows 8. Seriously. Just get over it.

[teh dave]

I wish to parrot what many of the more sane posters have already said: just use Windows 8. Give it a try, it's actually not too bad. You said you're willing to give up Windows for something else, but you don't have to. You're obviously comfortable with Windows 7, but Windows 8 is basically the same. So you hate Metro? Don't use it, simple as that. Booting directly to the desktop is as simple as changing a registry key, and if you simply must have the Start menu back, just find a replacement - there's a few good ones around, and the best one only costs $5. Just ignore Metro, and you have Windows 7 with a few awesome new long-awaited features, such as the new file progress dialogue. Seriously, just get over it - buy a Windows 8 laptop, try it, install Windows 7 later if you can't handle 8.

I love the Windows 7 widgets, so to get them back I just install 8GadgetPack. That was one of the only two features I really miss from Windows 7, and that solution works excellent.

(The other feature I miss from Win7 was the option to run old programs in NT4 compatibility mode. That is now gone and the options are Win98 and XP. I used NT4 mode to play Homeworld with OpenGL graphics. Not a big deal.)

Re:Use Windows 8. Seriously. Just get over it.

[teh dave]

Oh, and, if you're worried about drivers, either buy a laptop that was previously available with Windows 7 on it, or just suck it and see. The most important stuff that you need drivers for are things like the chipset, which hasn't changed recently, and wireless which costs $30 to replace with something good like an Intel 6300 - which is what I do anyway, to be honest.

Re:Is it normal ?

[myowntrueself]

http://www.classicshell.net/

Windows 8 is fine, its pretty fast, and with one simple third party UI extension is actually usable.

Central Computer

[Animats]

Central Computers, Silicon Valley's local computer store chain, has many Windows 7 laptops. Some are listed with "Windows 7 Downgrade Option.

Central Computer will do a "no crapware" install for you if you ask. They actually printed "no crapware" on the invoice for the last machine I bought.

Re:Just try it

[jones_supa]

The only difference is it's a start screen instead of a start menu. It's really not that bad once you give it a chance.

The start screen is much clunkier to use than the start menu. It just unnecessarily slows down my working.

Just wipe the thing

[WillgasM]

I'm sure the subsidies microsoft paid to have Win8 installed on that laptop actually make it cheaper overall than buying a laptop without an os. If you were thinking of moving to a linux distro, just wipe the damn thing.

Plenty of options

[dissy]

I have to second the suggestion for Start8 to fix Win 8.
It brings back the start menu, ungimps the windows key to allow search, and lets you login straight to the desktop.

Then you can think of Win 8 as a Win 7 install where the deprecated sidebar gadgets have been replaced with these silly tab gadget-like things that will be equally avoided.

The only other remaining downsides to Win 8 are also included in Win 7 and Vista so that shouldn't be a problem at all, as you said Win 7 is fine.

The other option is to get a laptop that has win 7 drivers available
Any OEM laptop over a couple months old should meet those requirements (IE Dell HP Levono/IBM ASUS Thinkpad etc)

Or get an Apple, they have drivers from XP forward.

Alienware still makes Win 7 laptops, although they are more geared towards gaming, but a beefy GPU isn't much of a downside IMHO ;} - Seriously thou, the only downside there is price.
But they have entry level laptops starting at $1000, and do run deals on and off that you'll need to keep an eye on.

But I gather you aren't looking for a cheap laptop, since the only really low prices ones will either be deals bundled with Win 8 to lower the price (MS gives them kickbacks for these sales) or will be too underpowered to run any Windows except a gimped XP or 2000 install.

I'd have to recommend an Alienware, and a close second being an Apple.

Re:Plenty of options

[TwentyCharsIsNotEnou]

Or get an Apple, they have drivers from XP forward.

They're not great though - my experience on a Macbook Pro with Windows 8:

• Two-finger scrolling is so sensitive it's almost unusable.
• Keyboard backlight always comes on at startup, have to hold the dim key down for 2-3 seconds to get rid of it, EVERY time you restart.
• Screen backlight intensity is unreliable, especially after a restart. The max available intensity seems to vary.

These are known issues for a long time now, and there are even 3rd party drivers written to fix them (but they only work if you put Windows 8 into devel mode). It's almost like Apple wants your Windows experience on a Mac to be slightly imperfect...

Don't be so difficult

[madmarcel]

Meh. Why bother. You are being too difficult. You are artificially limiting your choice and possibly forcing yourself to make a sub-optimal purchase.

After all the horror stories I'd heard about Win8, I went shopping specifically to buy a laptop with whatever OS (preferably win7) so that I could either wipe it or make it dualboot and install Ubuntu/some flavour of linux. I figured I'd have a good play with win8 in the shops and see what the fuss was all about.

Ended up buying a Samsung laptop with Win8 on it at the start of January. (8Gb Ram and it was cheap ;) First time since DOS that I've had to watch a tutorial to figure out how to do basic stuff in an OS, other than that it's ok-ish. Win8 was $%^%$^$% frustrating in the first week, but now it only gets in the way occasionally. (Having said that, I haven't used it for development yet)

I was going to make it dualboot with Ubuntu, but slashdot tells me that this might brick the laptop, so I'm using VirtualBox to run Ubuntu 12.10 and next week I'll create another VM for the latest version of Fedora (honesly, how bad can it be ;)

I can see a point coming up where Win8 will start to annoy me, and then I'll wipe the whole thing and install some flavour of linux permanently.
It doesn't matter what version of Windows is on your laptop, you're not stuck with it and you can still install whatever OS you like.
Unless you buy a Samsung laptop like I did - but I believe there is a fix available, I'll wait for the next version of Ubuntu before I risk it :)

TLDR; Win8 is ok, it's not that different from Win7. Just buy a Win8 laptop with the specs that you like and get over it.

I agree

[Sycraft-fu]

What with doing Windows support for a living I use the new and old Windows versions all the time. I run 8 at work, 7 at home. 8 is fine, once you get a start menu back. Start 8 is my favourite, costs $5. Start is Back costs $3 and actually restores the Windows start menu, the code is still in Win 8, at least most of it. Classic Shell is of course free and works fine, I just don't care for it as much.

One that is there, it works real well. It is fast and stable, and it has some improvements I like, the new task manager is quite nice.

It isn't worth rushing out to upgrade, it isn't OMGbettar than 7, if you have 7 stick with it. However it isn't problematic. It runs every program I've tried on it that also ran on 7 (and I've tried a lot) and it isn't problematic to use.

For that matter even the new start menu is perfectly usable, it is just more clunky than what it replaced. It isn't hard to use, just slower and inelegant. Perfectly usable though, we leave it on the 2012 servers we have.

Re:Sager

[Wookact]

I've used it, and it sucked. Did not want, Do not want, Will not want. Will always recommend against. I used that monstrosity for two weeks, trying to give it a chance. It is nothing more then the bastard offspring of a desktop and tablet oses, and it does neither well, particularly on a non touch screen.

The fact that I have to use third party tools to get it to act like what my customers want is one of my main problems. My customers DO NOT WANT what is not familiar. It is a conservative group that I work with. Heck changing as much as it did from XP to 7 really threw them off.

Considering that there is no technological reason why they did not include a gp to allow enabling the actual start button, and disabling Metro means Microsoft did not value the fact that I have customers that do not want it to change. They did not value MY opinion and I am the one who has to deal with their users. I am steering all of my clients to use Windows 7, and many of them have purchased extra licenses for future use.

You may handwave my arguments away if you like, that does not make you correct, insightful, or even the slightest bit intelligent. It just means you fail to see things from others point of views.

Re:You wouldn't care..

[The Dancing Panda]

Says a guy who hasn't used it. If you have it in quick launch, it's "move mouse to bottom left corner, move to tile, click". All your commonly used apps are right there in front of you. If you want a-non commonly used app, it's "mouse to bottom left corner, click the programs tile, click your app tile". Not really any different than the start menu. It's just laid out a little differently and uses the whole screen. Takes a little getting used to, I'll admit, but it's not this crazy abomination that some people make it out to be.

Re:Is it normal ?

[ctrlshift]

http://www.classicshell.net/

Windows 8 is fine, its pretty fast, and with one simple third party UI extension is actually usable.

Yup Classic Shell is the ticket. I've been using it for most of my clients now and nobody's missed Metro even a little bit. Now if we could just get an Office 2013 color scheme that doesn't make your eyes bleed...

Re:Sager

[Nolas]

It is nothing more then the bastard offspring of a desktop and tablet oses, and it does neither well, particularly on a non touch screen.

So you are saying that the desktop environment does not function well, when it is 99.999% identical to windows 7, then you go on to recommend windows 7. Something here does not compute.

Just Kill Metro

[Sarusa]

If you just disable Metro and get your start menu back with Start8, RetroUI, Classic Shell, or other options, you've got Win7 with a few nice upgrades. It's not worth a lot of effort or extra money to stick with Win7 (though if you can for the same price, go for it) Nor would I suggest most people pay the upgrade price for an existing Win7.

I do this at work - nobody even notices except one of our IT guys when he saw my lock screen, which looks a bit different under 8. More to the point I can swap back between it and Win7 machines and not even care or notice except that Win8 has a nicer copy/move box.

tigerdirect

[tfocker4]

Nuff said.

Mod the crap out of it

[neminem]

As much as I endorse, in general, speaking with your wallet and avoiding purchasing things that should really die a firey death - and Windows 8 is definitely in that category... sometimes there aren't any good alternatives, and you just have to suck it up.

That said, I already mod out basically as much of the Windows 7 UI as I possibly can, and I know all the stuff I use to get rid of crappy UI design in 7 also works in 8 (Classic Shell, XYPlorer, FileLocator, and 7 Taskbar Tweaker (now renamed to 7+ Taskbar Tweaker)). So at this point, I figure if I'm ever forced to use Win8, there's a good chance once I reinstall all that stuff, nothing will really change significantly.

can't always install win 7

[frovingslosh]

Aside from having to pay for Windows 8 and then having to pay for Windows 7, you can't always count on being able to install an older operating system. Sometimes, if the hardware was built after Win8 was available to the manufacturer, they don't produce drivers that will work under older O.S.s. Saw this a lot after vista came out and you couldn't always get XP to run on the hardware.

And, of course you take a big chance with a refurb computer. There are often reasons why it was returned in the first place, such as dead pixels. And refurbs don't get fresh replacement batteries, so you may not get the battery life you expect.

R&J Technology

[Balanced]

I was happy with http://www.rjtech.com/. They offer a lot of customization options on top of their bare bones laptops, and I found their service excellent. They're not cheap, but they've got some very nice kit, and I didn't have to give MS money for an OS I didn't want.

Lenovo

[GrBear]

I was looking for laptops today, and it seems most of the business class Thinkpads come with Win 7 installed, and media for Win8 in the box.

W8 will work — or buy as small business

[P1h3r1e3d13]

Just get Windows 8 and a Start Menu replacement. (There are a dozen out there.) Congrats, now you have Windows 7.

If there's something you dislike other than the start page, click on the “Small Business” section of Dell (or probably any other big builder). I just bought a W7 computer there last week.

OT: Win 7 vs Win 8 is the wrong question

[nappingcracker]

A bit OT, but you shouldn't care about OS except Linux vs Mac OS.

My reasoning is that you can buy a Windows license for 7 and reformat nearly any laptop except Apple laptops. You can use Linux on many laptops, but you should do research to ensure compatibility. Since you are a student, a license for Win 7 will be very inexpensive, especially when distributed over the average 4 years of college. Since you are not in college, you have time to deal with reinstalling a Windows operating system, so the time factor is also moot (if you're using Linux, you'll need to do that anyway unless supporting a Linux vendor).

Unless I totally misunderstand secure boot and UEFI and all that other new lockdown junk Win 7 will work on any Win 8 machine.

So, in my opinion you should be asking: "Which portable laptop will have the _highest resolution_ and fit in my budget"

All things being equal, this (and an SSD, which you can upgrade whenever -- but is DIY and should be done ASAP) is the biggest factor to productivity on a laptop. GET A NICE SCREEN! You're going to look at it every day for 4+ years! High resolution, IPS. Buy the biggest SSD that fits in your budget and swap out the one that comes with your machine (again assuming you don't go with an Apple machine). Now you have a responsive machine and a portable hard drive (throw the large drive that came with your laptop in an inexpensive USB powered enclosure)

Re:OT: Win 7 vs Win 8 is the wrong question

[NJRoadfan]

Its actually pretty tough to find a laptop with a nice high res screen thanks to HDTV panel production. Its either 1366x768 or 1920x1080. My 6+ year old Dell laptop has a nice 14" 1440x900 display and had the option of higher resolutions, something that is scarce in the market today outside of Apple's offerings.

Why not a desktop instead?

[marcomarrero]

Why a main laptop? Get a cheap, slow, portable, disposable notebook / budget laptop, and build your own powerful desktop computer. College students get Windows Server 2K12 (or 2K8R2) 100% free (via Microsoft Dreamspark). I guess I'm too old to understand laptop obsession. I need at least two monitors, and a real keyboard / mouse to be productive. (I dearly miss IBM Model M keyboards). There's no reason not to use Win8, except compatibility (they did change some security stuff). There's Classic Shell, and, you can run WinRT apps. Anyway, the only way around the eternal idiotification of Shells (after NT 4), is to somewhat accept it. Even Linux users are tortured with new weird stuff too.

Re:You wouldn't care..

[tgd]

... if the complaints against Windows 8 weren't common. That they are so common says there is something more to them than you're implying.

To me, tiles are just a horrible idea. They're like over-sized icons using 1980s-ish graphics. I hate more screens and sliding just to get to a damn application. Quicklaunch, tada. Even the Start Menu, not that far. Now? Start-Slide-Slide-Slide-Slide-Click. Fuck you.

They're common on Slashdot, who wants to whip up the zealots to drive ad views. They're not common anywhere else.

downgrade rights

[redback]

Buy something with win8pro, and use downgrade rights to install 7.

Must be 8pro, not regular.

or just get start8 or something similar.

Lenovo

[stafil]

Go for a Lenovo. You still have the option Win7 and will last forever.

transition period for MS

[gsgriffin]

This is a transition period for MS. I believe it was Steve Jobs that said there is no need and no one will ever want a touch display on a laptop"...or something to that affect. The truth is, we're adjusting the way we do things because of phones and tablets. Now people are becoming more accustom to touching the display. It's actually quite curious that Apple didn't make this move first. Now, they will be playing catch-up to MS in the next few years.(queue iFanBois angry reply now)

Once you abandon the old way of doing things (mouse/touchpad) and realize that your display will do what you want by touching it, it is so nice and easy and fast to simply touch the button on the screen rather than moving a cursor until you hover, then click. Touch the button with your finger and you're done. Windows 8 makes sense.

Then of course, you will enjoy the ability to read news and play games that are touch enabled. I do like the news layout of the Windows 8 articles. Side scrolling, nicely spaced, easy to process (no as busy and endless and a vert. scroll).

All that being said, I have 4 Windows 8 computers, a Surface, Yoga, Sony Tap 20, high powered Asus, and then several Android tablets, but I still use a Windows 7 computer (with LOTS of horse-power and 4 displays). I'm not changing to four touch-displays in order to use Win 8 on this beast. No need for my work to have touch, but going to college, writing papers, the average person today using a laptop, I'd go full touch screen windows 8 laptop/convertible in a heart-beat.

Re:transition period for MS

[Darinbob]

This is silly. I can't even reach my monitor to touch it without leaning forward. While it may be handy on a handheld device like a phone or tablet, it's absolutely stupid for a real computer on a desk.

Re:transition period for MS

[gsgriffin]

um, that's what I said. Slow down and read.

I have four monitors and don't have window 8 and don't want it for my desktop. Take home a Lenovo Yoga for a couple days, and you might see the idea of combining touch screen on a laptop. I'm typing on a laptop right now. My fingers are inches away from the display. To reach up and touch the screen is MUCH easier and faster than grabbing the mouse next to the laptop or pushing my finger carefully over the mouse pad.

The concept of combining the keyboard and touch screen is not bad. Try it for a laptop. Of course, big displays and many of them (like I have...with even one up high above the other monitors) this doesn't work. This is why this is a transition OS. It is trying to still be usable for non-touch while bringing in the concept and usefulness of touch display. I only see it useful for laptops, but a lot of people are talking about that as our future (for most). Consider how many laptops there were a decade ago and how many people have one of those and no desktop at home.

Re:transition period for MS

[jbolden]

For a desktop you use a mirror device. These are common among artists where you have a high quality touch screen mirroring what is on the screen in front of you. The high quality touch gives tremendous precision. Right now they those pointing devices are around $2k but they aren't made in quantity. In quantity they could be done for about $200.

Re:Sager

[AK Marc]

Notice, there wasn't an uproar around Windows 2K, or XP, or Win7.

I think it's also partially selective memory. I remember an uproar around Win2k. It was supposed to be what XP later was. It promised better USB support and better legacy support than it delivered. Yet it was a leap ahead enough that very old NT 3.11 applications failed to run, causing all sorts of headache for those keeping ancient applications alive. ME was the "lets move this crap out the door because Win2k is not usable in a home environment (games, USB printer/all in ones, etc.)" reaction. It wasn't a planned release. 98SE was, and it was good, so good it broke the "avoid every other release". 98 was better than 95, and 98 SE better than that. ME was a stop-gap puked out by MS because Win2k was an admitted failure, and was panned for not hitting the target. XP was what 2k was suposed to be. Gaming on a business line of code, with no core code from the home line of OS. That's what Win2k was sold as before it was out, and it missed. It was better than NT 4.0, but NT 4.0 SP3,5, or 6 (there was no SP4) were closer to 2k than MS liked.

This is again parallel to the Vista debacle, where my organization bought WinXP machines from Dell until the day Win7 machines were available. We were never forced into purchasing a single Vista box.

I know plenty of places that moved from NT4.0 to XP. The only ones that moved to Win2k were the ones who thought you had to for the server improvements. Notice how Server never matched workstation after 2000? That's because the server people thought the bad desktop was holding them back. I'd be curious to know how many moved from NT4.0 to XP and how many went from XP to 7. Was there really that much of a difference? XP was not panned because the two OSs it replaced were either Win2k or ME, depending on where you were coming from. And it was a big improvement over either. 7 was much better than Vista, even if not better than XP. 8 isn't any worse than 7, so long as you know what alt-tab is, and a few of the win+[other key] combos are.

Re:Is it normal ?

[Darinbob]

Well, wipe and reinstall win7 is not cheap. Windows 7 is not given away, and if you don't have an old non-OEM version hanging around it will cost you.

Really the reason so many people have Windows is because it comes free or close to free with computers. If people ever had to pay full non-OEM prices then it would die quickly.

Shop and look for 7 compatabile drivers

[jjsimp]

Look at any laptop you would want. Then checkout that manufacturers support website and see if they have all compatible drivers for Windows 7. Paying attention to the manufacturer's hardware, such as the Fn key software (for brightness and volume control). If they don't provide your basic drivers for Windows 7 (ie Video, motherboard chipset, wifi, BT, display), look for another laptop and possibly another manufacturer. Surprisingly, my work HP laptop they bought over three years ago (whenever Vista first came out), supports not only XP, Vista, and 7, but also Windows 8. My IT dept had downgraded the Vista that came with it to XP. I upgraded it to 7 not too long ago and it runs great.

Try XoticPC

[mike.rimov]

Xotic PC has quite a few good laptops and a ton of customization options. I've purchased several laptops for myself, my wife, and my customers through them. The one big warning I would say about them is do NOT order them if you are in a hurry. They do take time to build and ship if you get customization options, and they don't seem to carry a large supply of their parts on hand. (Don't blame them for inventory tax $)

Other than that, they're always super friendly to deal with and I always get my laptop just the way I want it.

powernotebooks

[Khashishi]

I have purchased twice from https://www.powernotebooks.com/

Re:Is it normal ?

[Lawrence_Bird]

Do you find it normal to whine about features that are no longer useful? Is your desktop really that barren of frequently used program icons that you must use the start menu functionality more than a handful of times a week? Are your most commonly changed settings that far away when clicking the charm menu vs start/control/subgroup/etc? Did you even try to find out if there might be other alternatives in place like... ctrl-x? Or just right clicking over the mini-start screen in the bottom left corner?

Its all there, some of it quicker to use, some of it perhaps a click further for less used items. Please, get on with your life and stop fixating on start menu.

Re:Is it normal ?

[Zontar The Mindless]

Agreed... In general sticking to whatever OS the laptop came with will give you the least amount of trouble.

...and will prompt many a Slashdotter to mutter, 'Turn in your geek card, buddy,' between sips of the mornng cuppa.

I'm not sure what your issue is ?

[obarthelemy]

- If you don't like Win8's UI, just add ClassicShell (or a competitor, but ClassicShell is good and free) to Win8, it will make it look just like Win7
- is it about cost ?
- is it about philosophy ?

Double check if your courses require some software that only runs under Windows. Or Linux.

Instead of focusing on the OS, you should focus on sturdiness and battery life, though.

what I do

[slashmydots]

I own a computer repair store and 90% of my stock comes from a large, respectable pawn shop in town. I test it and review the error logs before buying. They have so many, I can target ASUS, Toshiba, Samsung, Sony, and MSI (aka the top 5 in reliability) and get it for a decent price with Windows 7. The #1 best buy right now is an i3 or even pentium B or AMD A8 or higher Toshiba Satellite laptop from the L7xx series. Those are practically flawless and use great internal parts. The price was nice brand new so now used they're quite low for what you get.

How, exactly, is it so difficult to find Windows 7

[Chas]

First off, FUCK BUYING OFF THE SHELF SYSTEMS! All these brick and mortars are going to do is sell you a craptastic system at an inflated price. And of COURSE all they'll sell you is Windows 8.

Dell

HP

Lenovo

Toshiba

Samsung

Sony

Sager You can still order their products with Win7. The configuration app gives you the option.

MSI MSI laptops still come with Win7. There's a push for Win8, but they come with Win7 by default.

Acer still sells Win7 laptops (just no way on the web to filter for them, so I can't provide a definitive link).

That should be enough to get you started.

Re:Xotic pc

[jimbo]

These guys are great, endless number of customization options and default is no OS - you have to add your choice of OS as an option if you want it.

US based.

Re:Just try it

[Eskarel]

The key to Windows 8, is essentially to give up the mouse, if you use the keyboard you don't even notice the issues anymore. Doesn't stop the start screen from being an abomination, but it moves to being a "it could have been better" compared to a "get this out of my face". Underneath the start screen it's actually a really good OS, I upgraded and when I learned enough shortcuts to get stuff done I don't even notice anymore. Mind you it helped that I'd started doing [win] and then typing to get my app in Win 7 ages ago and that just translated straight into the start screen but faster.

C'mon, kids! It's not the 1990s anymore...

[Zontar The Mindless]

What's with this FUD that's old enough to send to the liquor store for you, anyhow? You can get almost any major-brand laptop these days and install one of the more common Linux distros on it without iss---...

Oh, right. Nevermind...

dell auction

[executioner]

Dellauction.com sells off lease laptops typically with no OS or anything from XP through 7 and all the systems are reconditioned back to original specs.

OEM Windwos 7 / 8 vs FreeDOS in Bulgaria

[D,Petkow]

You can Buy the same laptop with Windows 7, Windows 8 or FreeDOS only in my country. In fact a good deal of laptops sold in Bulgaria come with FreeDOS. And i mean brand names like Dell, HP, Lenovo, Toshiba, etc. Its like they already know you will not install a licensed copy and they lower the price tag by excluding the OEM OS copy of WIndows, eventhough its cheap with regional discounts and all that. So I feel sorry for you. I don't know how this is done, but is is 100% legit and your local stores seem to be forcing the Win8 On you. I Feel bad about them and sorry for you.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Try the big three

[Mattsson]

Try looking at HP, Dell and Lenovo.
For instance, here's a few of the ones from HP, Simply filter on "Operating System: Windows 7 (64 bit)":
http://h20386.www2.hp.com/UKStore/Merch/Product.aspx?id=B0C30EA&opt=ABU&sel=PCNB
http://h20386.www2.hp.com/UKStore/Merch/Product.aspx?id=B8W13AA&opt=ABU&sel=PBNB
http://h20386.www2.hp.com/UKStore/Merch/Product.aspx?id=H4P02ET&opt=ABU&sel=PBNB
http://h20386.www2.hp.com/UKStore/Merch/Product.aspx?id=C5A68ET&opt=ABU&sel=PBNB

Similarly, I found a whole bunch of Thinkpads from Lenovo which ships with Windows 7 after searching for about 1 minute.

Get Win 8 and install compatibility program

[someothername]

Just get the laptop with the specs / price you want and if it has Windoze 8 on it install one of the many programs, many free, that make it look / act / feel like Windoze 7. My family has had two laptops die in the last month or so, one right before x-mas and one two weeks ago. I replaced them both with good deals, but both had Windoze 8. It is a horrible OS for laptops, but I installed a free program call Classic Shell Setup that makes them look / feel like Windoze 7 for the most part and the wife and son are happy.

Have you tried Windows 8?

[skreed]

Windows 8 is nothing more than a more than an optimized Windows 7. I beta tested Windows 8 early on and immediately formed a negative opinion, and jumped on the "Here comes the next Vista" bandwagon. After talking with a developer at work who upgraded his work laptop from 7 to 8, I decided to give it a chance and built a new PC with Windows 8. My opinion has now shifted and I have found it to be quicker and lighter weight than Windows 7. Give it a try, you just might be surprised.

Some folks answering a question that wasn't asked

[staynegative]

I too am shopping for a Win7 machine and finding it to be a bit of a challenge.

Why are there always so many people eager to jam Win8 down your throat. If my criteria is Win7 (for whatever reason) just recognize that is what I want and don't try to convince me otherwise, completely ignoring the question at hand. If you were at a car dealership with the intentions of purchasing an SUV and the dealer kept telling you... no, no, your kids will fit into this 4 door and it will get better mileage, you'll like it.. are you buying the 4 door? Didn't think so. That said, if you can help us find places w/ more options please do speak up! After all, more of us avoiding Win8 will just amp up the discounts on those Win8 machines even more (yes, they're cheaper than Win7 machines right now).

So far I've had a little luck on Amazon creating a list of options to consider, and a few in Dell's outlet (here's where the people who are staunch anti-Dell jump down my throat too).

Good luck (to both of us).

Re:Is it normal ?

[MightyYar]

Well, indeed some of us look for trouble :) I have a laptop that I always want to Just Work, and then I have a collection of other computers, always in some state of dis-assembly...

In the context of this discussion, if the guy can't use Google for a computer with Windows 7, then I'm not even sure he HAS a geek card!

Downgrade from Windows 8 to Windows 7 is Free

[turp182]

It's actually an upgrade, but not officially...

Re:Downgrade from Windows 8 to Windows 7 is Free

[cpghost]

I thought downgrades are only free with Win8 pro, not with Win8 OEM (or whatever they call that) that comes preinstalled on most laptops.

Re:Downgrade from Windows 8 to Windows 7 is Free

[petermgreen]

To get downgrade rights it has to be the pro or enterprise edition and it must be from the OEM or volume license channels. Retail copies (whether full product or upgrade) don't come with downgrade rights.

So if you have a laptop that came with the basic edition of "windows 8" (for some silly reason it seems MS has decided not to give this edition a name) afaict your only options for dowgrading are to either buy a complete new copy of windows or to buy an upgrade through a volume license program:(

Click on desktop

[wicka_wicka]

Seriously, just use the desktop. It's basically the same. Win+Q pulls up a search box. That's basically all you need to know.

how to disable "metro" from boot

[RobertLTux]

okay a question for the group

How can you without installing a utility disable "Metro" (and restore the Start Menu) and have it come up ON BOOT that way??

please note for the JFGI crowd I have tried but i can only see

1 OLD articles (preRTM)
2 articles selling utilities
3 Fluff articles that don't apply at all (or are on Win7)

Either list the steps or give a direct link please.

Start8

[Githaron]

Aside from the Metro UI, Windows 8 isn't all that different than Windows 7. In fact, I think it is a little more efficient on the back end. The problem with Windows 8 is the Metro UI. For non-touch devices, it is horrible. I installed Start8 for $5.00 in order to avoid Metro but still use Windows 8. Now, Start8 boots me directly to the desktop and I have a Windows 7 style menu. I get the back end improvements in Windows 8 with the UI of Windows 7.

Re:Is it normal ?

[cthulhu11]

Well, wipe and reinstall win7 is not cheap.

I like to think that there are always ... possibilities

Really the reason so many people have [MS] Windows is because it comes free or close to free with computers.

It's also what most people know and assume they need. For many people it's what they use at work and it's natural to have the same thing elsewhere. There's also the widespread view that they need MS Windows for "the applications" -- I still encounter people who don't know that MS Office exists for OSX. Some people also still think that OSX is only for gay cowboys eating pudding.

If people ever had to pay full non-OEM prices then it would die quickly.

People routinely pay for MS Office yet it endures.

Buy a Mac

[mpdcsup]

OS X Mountain Lion is definitely not Windows 8. And a Mac can run Windows 7 if that floats your boat.

Get a Chromebook

[vandamme]

Buy beer with the extra money.

Go this route

[alfredo]

Get a MacBook, and use the included BootCamp to run Windows7. You will have to boot into the OS you want, but that shouldn't be much of a hassle unless you switch between OS's often.

Re:Is it normal ?

[Chalnoth]

Yes. I purposefully keep my desktop clean, and almost exclusively use the start menu to access my programs. I do not like clutter, and only use my desktop for a couple of widgets and temporary file storage.

The start menu is vastly, vastly better for multitasking than a desktop: the desktop is already hidden by the programs that are already open, and I don't want to have to go back to it just to open a new program.

So no, I think the Windows 8 UI is a stupid attempt to bring a user interface that is okay for the tablet into the desktop/laptop space where it absolutely does not belong.

Check out the business section

[Shirley Marquez]

If you go to the business computer section of online computer vendors like HP and Dell, you can find laptops that can be ordered with Windows 7 Professional rather than Windows 8. Technically they're being sold with Windows 8 Professional, with the downgrade right to Windows 7 Profession already exercised for you, so you will have the right to switch back to Windows 8 should you ever want to do that (like, after SP1 restores the ability to have the Start menu).

Re:Check out the business section

[Ritchie70]

There are actually a good number on Dell and Lenovo (didn't look at HP) that list Windows 7 as the installed OS. Even under Home for Dell. I only looked at Small Business on Lenovo's site.

If you ask me someone didn't try very hard.

The vendors don't care who buys from the Small Business section. They may assign you an account rep and mail you an invoice (both of which seem weird for a one-off purchase) but they'll happily sell you their stuff.

Re:Is it normal ?

[marcello_dl]

Do you find it normal having to re-learn how to do stuff with your pc because the OS producer needs to make his products unique so you have more trouble using the alternatives? Every 3 years?

Linux Emporium

[Jalfro]

http://www.linuxemporium.co.uk/hardware/hardware-laptops.html

If you're fine with os-free...

[jasonditz]

why is it a big deal if it ships with Windows 8? Just format the hd and bam... os-free laptop.

Re:Is it normal ?

[Patch86]

I have no programme icons on my desktop. That is not what my desktop is for. I use my desktop as a sort of interactive clipboard- it's where I put files when I'm reorganizing things, or files that I've just downloaded, or things that I've extracted from ZIP folders- all of which get deleted or moved when I'm done with them.

On Windows 7, all of my programmes are started from the Start menu using keyword search (with the exception of the 3 or 4 programmes that I keep pinned to the taskbar- essentially just Firefox, Thunderbird and the File Manager. My Ubuntu set up is essentially exactly the same.

Making the Start menu and keyword search facility big and obstructive and ugly is a sureire way of ruining my computing experience. That's the one part of the GUI that I really want my OS vendors to focus on improving. The actual windowing desktop functionality I just want them to leave the hell alone...

Empty Laptop

[krid4]

So where should I go if looking for laptops sans os,... A few years ago I could buy Ahtec laptops (Spanish) without any OS. They still work fine. www.ahtec.es

Re:Is it normal ?

[Gen_Music]

Windows 8 has only been out in various forms for 4 months. Incompatible hardware is nowhere near hitting the market.

Re:Is it normal ?

[Gen_Music]

Then you should be able to appreciate that the Start screen is just a re-skinned Start menu with a lot more functionality.

If there is nothing on your desktop why do you need it there whilst browsing your start menu?

Re:Is it normal ?

[cmdr_tofu]

For me the only extension that makes Windows usable at all is cygwin (but I haven't used Windows 8)

Almost anywhere.

[Ritchie70]

I've looked so far at dell.com and lenovo.com. Both have many laptops available for immediate purchase running Windows 7.

At Dell, under Small Business they start around $350. Under Home/Consumer they are a bit more expensive.

At Lenovo, ThinkPad E-Series under small business all seem to list Windows 7.

So basically the whole question is bogus and merely an excuse to start up another Windows 8 bash-fest.

Either that or Sagan's Pie thinks "everywhere" is logically equivalent to "Best Buy" and "Walmart".

I just bought a laptop here

[Jastiv]

I just bought a laptop from this site. It comes without windows and your choice of linux distros. https://www.thinkpenguin.com/ I still haven't received it yet since I just bought it a couple days ago, but I will review it when I get it.

Re:Is it normal ?

[RockDoctor]

Really the reason so many people have Windows is because it comes free^H^H^H^H^H as a hidden cost or^W close^W to^W free^W with computers.

FTFY. It's a small difference, but important.

Everywhere

[Vrtigo1]

Go do a Google search for "windows 7 laptops" and pick a site from the 200 million results. Or, you could choose eBay / Amazon / NewEgg / Walmart, all of which still sell new Windows 7 laptops.

Otherwise, the unfortunate answer is that you'll have to buy a Windows 8 laptop and put Windows 7 on it. That means you'll have to purchase a license for Windows 7 (OEM licenses do not include downgrade rights), but on the up side, you may be able to get a refund for the bundled Windows 8 license if you remove it from the computer before using it. Just google "oem windows refund process" for more info.

Re:Is it normal ?

[mstrjon32]

Search the web for Windows 7 SLP installation. The computer you buy will almost certainly have a valid, genuine Windows 7 key already installed in its BIOS, and with just a teeny, tiny bit of Google searching, you'll figure out how to do a legal, clean installation using that key. FYI: Windows 8 uses a newer version of the same technology that doesn't require any actions on the part of the end user to invoke. Just put in a Win8 disk, install, and you're done.

Re:Is it normal ?

[letherial]

cool thanks, I like windows 8...hibernation is done right for once and it will even resume network transfers, among many other things, i just cant get passed the no start button, its habit from years of working with windows.

There's always Mac Book...

[ResidentSourcerer]

Seriously. Macs are pricey, but are pretty solid hardware. At that point you can:
* run MacOS X
* run VirtualBox or Parallels, then inside that run your choise of windows operating systems.

(Recently I have hada to do this in order to run MS Access. So I've got Snow Leopard -> Virtual Box -> Windows XP -> Access.

Actually runs better than when I had a single purpose win xp box 8 years ago to do the same thing.