North Korea Declares a State of War

paysonwelch writes "North Korea has declared a state of war against South Korea, stating that neither peace nor war has ended. Quoting the news release via Reuters: '1. From this moment, the north-south relations will be put at the state of war and all the issues arousing between the north and the south will be dealt with according to the wartime regulations.' The DPRK goes on to say that this will be a 'blitz' war and that they will regain control of the south, and destroy U.S. bases in the process." Great line from the declaration: "[The U.S.] should clearly know that in the era of Marshal Kim Jong Un, the greatest-ever commander, all things are different from what they used to be in the past." A senior U.S. official called this statement "pot-banging and chest-thumping." The official said, "North Korea is in a mindset of war, but North Korea is not going to war."

Comments

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Ut oh.

[Anonymous Coward]

This won't end well. It was always tricky to deal with NK before because we didn't know about China. But now Chins is our source of cheap crap and we are their source for economic growth.

If the Us bases are attacked and we get involved it's going to get very ugly, very fast.

Re:Ut oh.

[firex726]

Well China has recently voted in favor of sanctions against NK; previously they did not.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-21710919

Re:Ut oh.

[Anonymous Coward]

You so smart! You say things no one else know, like water is wet!

Re:Ut oh.

[interval1066]

This won't end well.

If by not well you mean for the PRK, you're right. They won't get what they want this time (free food and other perks that they get every time they wag the dog). If you mean its going to end in some kind of fire fight, 100% wrong. You apparently are unaware of the history of this sick little state. I see they're building up Un like they did his father.

Re:Ut oh.

[roc97007]

Yeah, I think that's what's going to be different this time. There are signs that China is getting tired of North Korea's crap.

Re:Ut oh.

[Anonymous Coward]

Obama isn't bending, so North Korea is losing face. The only thing they can do to regain face is a military victory. In the past this has involved attacking ships and shelling islands. Let's not kid ourselves, while a war with North Korea is unlikely, they still might kill people just up to the point where the US and SK would respond.

Re:Ut oh.

[Black Parrot]

Obama isn't bending, so North Korea is losing face. The only thing they can do to regain face is a military victory. In the past this has involved attacking ships and shelling islands. Let's not kid ourselves, while a war with North Korea is unlikely, they still might kill people just up to the point where the US and SK would respond.

Saw an editorial yesterday that said what might be different this time is that Junior is inexperienced at how the game is played, and might think actually starting some sh*t is a good idea.

Millions of people stand to get killed - Seoul is targetted by a *huge* collection of conventional artillery - but if he thinks there's any outcome that won't leave him as a smoking hole in the ground, he's delu...

Uh-oh, the world's in trouble.

Re:Ut oh.

[Anonymous Coward]

Obama isn't bending....

Sure.. That jackass will get us into a firefight and then go fucking apologize to the DPRK for "Americas transgressions in making them feel marginalized" or some such bullshit.

Re:Ut oh.

[bmimatt]

All your base are belong to us.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qItugh-fFgg

Re:Ut oh.

[theshowmecanuck]

Yes. This is all because the military dictatorship's tantrum isn't working this time, so it is trying what all spoiled brats do (spoiled by China of course): they scream even louder. Of course giving them a smack on the behind would end the annoyance right now and teach them discipline... but unfortunately it is too expensive an option, so better to just let them cry themselves to sleep.

Re:Ut oh.

[Tough Love]

Millions of people stand to get killed - Seoul is targetted by a *huge* collection of conventional artillery...

The incoming artillery would have maybe an hour or two to do its evil until silenced by B1s and South Korea's not insignificant anti-artillary resources. This fact is well understood by North Korea's planners. North Korea's only realistic mass murder option is nuclear, with the certainty of an immediate and overwhelming response, including from China which is no more comfortable than anyone else having a nuclear armed madman on its doorstep.

Re:Ut oh.

[RicktheBrick]

There are leaders in every country that just love to justify military expense. How do we know that this is just a game that is being played between them so that all of the local populations will not question those expenses?

Re:Ut oh.

[interval1066]

Uh-oh, the world's in trouble.

Its foolish to believe that the PRK won't get squashed like a bug if it starts pulling a "James Homes", China is NOT INTERESTED in an out-of-control PRK. Calm down.

Re:Ut oh.

[AK Marc]

We can always talk to China. They are a "most favored nation" in trade status, and we have reasonably good political ties. There's no reason this has to be a proxy war. We just need to spend 10 minutes with China and there won't be a problem.

Re:Ut oh.

[AK Marc]

In two hours, NK could pretty well level Seoul. I think that's understood by both sides as well.

Re:Ut oh.

[Tough Love]

In two hours, NK could pretty well level Seoul. I think that's understood by both sides as well.

That is complete bull that you pulled out of your ass. I do not think you bothered to take even a cursory look at the geography of Seoul. Damage, yes. Level with conventional artillery... not on God's green earth. Not without nukes, and that of course is the issue.

Re:Ut oh.

[AK Marc]

There are thousands of pieces of artillery aimed south. They aren't going to randomly shell Seoul. They will have targets loaded, factories, hospitals, hotels, and other areas of economic activity and population concentrations. It wouldn't take that much to take out some high profile buildings. Yes, I have looked at the geography, I still think you are wrong. It's not unlike London in WWII (no sky scrapers there) and there was still lots of effect from bombing it. Yes, when it was all over, there would be a lot of individual buildings standing, but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't have significant damage in key areas.

Re:Ut oh.

[N1AK]

It's not unlike London in WWII (no sky scrapers there) and there was still lots of effect from bombing it.

And London wasn't flattened or even close to flattened. I should know I still have living relatives who were there during the blitz. Your hyperbole betrays your claims to know the facts. There's no reason for NK to start an intensive shelling campaign against SK; they'll give the US/SK an excuse to decimate NK positions 'in defence' and potentially even target their senior military figures without China having any cover to interfere.

NK will keep dicking around at the edges or it will go full in; there's no other option that makes sense (not that those do either mind). It seems the US and SK have finally decided that all the posturing really is a bark without a bite and are willing to ignore it now.

Re:Ut oh.

[AK Marc]

The question was about "if there was a war". Your claim is that NK will not fire its artillery if it attacks or is attacked. That's simply silly.

Re:Ut oh.

[MichaelSmith]

Not even with Nukes. Even if they can detonate a 30kt weapon at ten thousand feet or so, the area inside blast radius would be a fraction of Seoul. and NK have at best a few nukes, with only one opportunity to deliver a weapon.

Also, the Seoul transit system is drilled deep into solid rock and is obviously intended as an air raid shelter.

Re:Ut oh.

[CodeBuster]

North Korea doesn't have enough resources for a sustained military campaign. They're short on everything from fuel to spare parts and even ammunition. Moreover, their equipment is mostly antique and obsolete and they're not able to replace losses. If they do attack, the US and South Korea should seize upon the opportunity to wreck as much of their military equipment as possible, as we did with the Iraqi army in Gulf War I, so as to limit their future offensive capabilities and degrade their military effectiveness. I'm not suggesting that the US or South Korea shoot first, but if the North Attacks the US and South Korea should ensure that they pay for it.

Re:Ut oh.

[WindBourne]

Yeah, except for the fact that when we IDed a number of bank accounts, China refused to freeze them. So, they agreed with the UN, BUT they have ZERO intentions of keeping their word. That is no different than what they have done for the last 50 years.

Re:Ut oh.

[CodeBuster]

How do we know that this is just a game that is being played between them so that all of the local populations will not question those expenses?

Military expenses can be cut, just like other government expenses, but think of the cost if you're wrong. Whatever problems you have under your current government would intensify a hundred fold if your nation was conquered and occupied by a foreign army. When weighed against those tremendously costly consequences, a military capable of providing a credible defense is definitely worth funding.

Re:Ut oh.

[kurt555gs]

One nuke detonated over South Korea and .............. It will be forever until I get the next software update for my Nexus 4.

Re:Ut oh.

[Hal_Porter]

If they do attack, the US and South Korea should seize upon the opportunity to wreck as much of their military equipment as possible, as we did with the Iraqi army in Gulf War I, so as to limit their future offensive capabilities and degrade their military effectiveness.

I think if an actual shooting war breaks out the South Koreans would be forced to invade North Korea to destroy the artillery they have in range of Seoul. I.e. it would be more Gulf War II - regime change at all costs than Gulf War I.

Re:Ut oh.

[bigpat]

Why are we imposing sanctions on North Korea at all? The fact that they oppress their own people is not particularly different than many US allies or at least states we do business with and have bases in. Sure, I want North Korea to follow the East Germany model and get absorbed by South Korea. But sanctions seem like a stupid and ineffective way to do it. All it is doing is causing North Koreans to become really good at smuggling and running drugs to get foreign currency. And rightly they see trade sanctions as an act of war.

It would frustrate the hell out of china if we embraced trade with North Korea and opened up relations, especially with a view to unification.

Surely they wouldn't start it unless they can win.

[Anonymous Coward]

I for one welcome our glorious new Democratic overlords.

Didn't they get the memo?

[Lawrence_Bird]

The Korean "war" never ended. It has been ongoing since 1950

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have to agree that Marshal Kim Jong Un is the greatest-ever commander...after all, most commanders have lost lives, while Kim Jong Un hasn't lost any lives, or even a single battle. What US commander in chief could say that?

Now, if he actually does have his people go to battle, I'd change my opinion, and call him an egomanical turd.

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[gl4ss]

The Korean "war" never ended. It has been ongoing since 1950

well how many times can you announce that you're going to attack? they don't have their own memos from last week(apparently memos are in trade blockage as well).

I'm more inclined to believe that the military is worried the middle rung layers of the military might start doing something enterprising, since their portions of booze and dried meat have lately gotten even smaller than usual.. hence the current state of things in which the entire north korean military is effectively in house arrest.

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[Anonymous Coward]

all things are different from what they used to be in the past

So, the war did end?

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't be surprised if they do something on Sunday. They like acts of war on holidays.

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[data2]

I realize reading TFA is frowned upon, so just for you:

"The state of neither peace nor war has ended on the Korean Peninsula."

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[GODISNOWHERE]

Didn't you get the memo? It wasn't a "war", it was a "police action." On a related note, the mass incarceration of peace loving, non-violent pot smokers isn't a "police action", but a "War on Drugs." God Bless America.

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[interval1066]

well how many times can you announce that you're going to attack?

What an utterly idiotic thing to say. What OP said is factually correct, officially there has existed a state of war between North and South Korea for 60 years, no armistice was signed when the Korean War ended. Get some knowlege before you oopen your mouth.

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[ozmanjusri]

Imagine you're a guy in your mid-30s, educated in Switzerland, a smart enough guy. You're not particularly interested in politics, just want to have a good time and enjoy the luxuries you've always been accustomed to. Then all of a sudden, you're dragged from your your cosy, relatively anonymous life and told you're the leader of one of the world's remaining military dictatorships.

You don't particularly want to lead, you'd rather continue your life as a pampered playboy, but the people around you are murderous, and will brook no signs of weakness. This is a roller-coaster you're on, you have very little control and you can't get off. How do you stop it? What do you do?

If you go soft, you'll be assassinated, you know that because it almost happened. One way might be to push harder than the generals expect and try to provoke the rest of the world into stopping the ride for you.

Just a thought...

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[91degrees]

The UN involvement was described as a police action. The war itself was always a war, but Truman declared the UN's involvement as a "police action".

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[flayzernax]

I agree, it seems like the Kim line is a line of cosmetic figure heads and hold no real power except in swaying public opinion (perhaps on both sides) and it might just be the opinions of the rest of the world they are trying to sway. Also if they are selectively groomed for the roll they will be more then happy to do as they are tolled and not risk their position or the positions of their relatives and friends.

Outsmarting the real dictators and swaying local and world opinions in the right direction while minimizing casualties would be a hard feat indeed.

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[RightwingNutjob]

Or, you know, try to escape to Japanese disneyland like his brother did...

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[demonlapin]

The first thing I'd do is call Bashir Assad and ask him how it works.

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[Anonymous Coward]

Interesting. I have no doubt the saber rattling will save his life for now.

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[DarkOx]

Oh come on; you are telling he does not have plenty of people around him who'd just love to be in charge. I bet it would take him mere hours to make a deal with someone near to the family.

"Hey tell you what Commander $NAME; you help me get quietly out of the country with this suit case full of the money I liberated from our treasury and as soon as I am somewhere safe I'll make a statement to the international media that says I have abdicated and Commander $NAME is now the new Dear Leader"

Its not that difficult; Its not like he has been out the DPRK plenty of times on both fake and legitimate passports.

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[Anonymous Coward]

And according to the US there never was a war there. Just a police action.

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[Luckyo]

Well, McArthur was suggesting nuclear bombardment. I suppose in comparison, the meatgrinder that was Korean war was probably pretty tame.

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not the ride, it's the sudden stop that kills you.

If he were indeed "smart enough", he'd try to bring the ride to a slow, gentle halt rather than getting everyone aboard, including himself, killed in the process. You think he will survive the attentions of an angry and hostile world no matter how helpless or stupid or innocent he wants to be? He'll be tried for war crimes / crimes against humanity the moment he's able to be -- are those slave labor camps still around over there? If his name is plastered all over the war, will he get off scott free? Really?

If he wanted to stop the ride for himself, he'd jump out with his golden parachute and claim political asylum in the US. "Yes, I, uh, er... I think I'm gonna go have a chat with the President of the US, tell him that we're awesome and we'll blow his brains out if we want to. I'll be gone for a few days, so feed the cats for me, would you? Oh, and I'll need a little pocket change -- wouldn't do to seem poor when on a diplomatic mission of intimidation, right?" Gain protection for a few years while establishing a little anonymous life here, wait for the whole shitstorm to blow over, then quietly quietly change his name, and emigrate to some nice city in one of the well-off countries of Europe.

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[Anonymous Coward]

He might have been hesitant at first but I suspect that he has begun to enjoy the same game as his father played, i.e. being relevant on the world stage. How many leaders of other nations of the same size can you name? Probably not that many. And he's certainly the youngest person with his hand on a nuke button. None of us can imagine what it's like to be in his position and with great power comes great insanity.

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[JakeBurn]

Ah! The old suicide by cop routine. Clever boy Kim Jong Un is.

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[Immerman]

Sure, getting out of the country would be easy, but what are the odds that commanders #2 through #9 will happily roll over and accept #1's sudden rise to dominance? Any disruption in the line of succession will destabilize the balance of power within the government, and the fallout could cost a whole lot of innocent people their lives. Would you want that on your conscience? Provoking international action on the other hand might seem like a relatively clean solution - any invasion would likely start with a tactical strike against the military elite. And knowing that, the generals might well be willing to accept voluntary banishment with all the severance package they can plunder if faced with an actual invasion.

Of course any such invasion would require the cooperation of China to avoid ballooning onto the global stage, which has been why they've been in such a comfortable position for so long. If China's getting tired of their antics though then that protective umbrella is rapidly fading, and all that remains is for they and the US to agree on what the new government should look like and how many puppets each of them get in it. The other regional powers might have some voice as well if only as a moderating influence - i.e. China might prefer that a couple puppets answer to Japan rather than directly to the US in order to diffuse our influence.

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[SeaFox]

The Korean "war" never ended. It has been ongoing since 1950

Yes, that's exactly how the Administration is going to spin it, too.
"We aren't getting involved in the Second Korean War, this is just the first one from the '50s and it never has ended."

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[Anonymous Coward]

An armistice was signed. NK has unilaterally withdrawn from it several times since, though. But they basically still abide by it. (At least until now they have).

What you probably meant was that there was never a peace treaty or such.

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[DarkOx]

I was responding to the idea that Kim might somehow be compelled to keep his position in order to protect his life of privilege. I don't think it's true, I think if all he wanted was to be an international playboy there are those who might help him. Wether or not command #1 hischosen successor, is able to fend off #2-n or not is really nothing to Kim who has his suit case full of money is 1000s of miles away.

  In my hypothetical #1 helps Kim leave with some cash in exchange for the political advantage Kim naming him the legitimate new leader will offer. Kim getting away could happen any number of ways. My point is Kim is where he is because he wants to be leader of the DPRK; and that is true wether or not he is an absolute autocrat or mostly a puppet of some cabal. I mearly suggest he could probably find away to leave and do so as a wealthy man if he were so incline.

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[Anonymous Coward]

OR he could declare war, surrender and go into a well funded exile by the cia, having only to do the occassional botched coup to take back the country.

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Korean "war" never ended. It has been ongoing since 1950

And in light of the US Government sending troops to invade the sovereign nations of Iraq, on blatantly false evidence of WMD, and Afghanistan the United States of America could fire missiles at every known missile site in North Korea and wipe out the threat overnight. Oh, there is no oil in North Korea you say. That explains the lack of "hawks" in the US Government.

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[White Flame]

Imagine you're a guy in your mid-30s, educated in Switzerland, a smart enough guy.

Really? 'He couldn't speak English, didn't pass any exams, was obsessed with basketball, computer games'

The kid's spoiled and chances are he's inherited & has been brought up with a god complex as well.

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[Lawrence_Bird]

No, I meant exactly what I said. The war was not ended -there has been a cease fire in effect for the past 60 years with neither side willing to settle their differences. So any hostilities which break out will be a continuation of the original Korean War, not a new one.

Team America World Police anyone?

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[Lawrence_Bird]

Yes, that and the population of Seoul dickwad.

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[Dan1701]

This is pretty much the size of it. The NK political situation is quite simple really, it is a rather unusual medieval-style monarchy, with generals substituting for barons. Poor, pampered Kim just got made king, and all of a sudden he goes from being nobody much to this guy whom everyone wants dead.

The generals however didn't know who else to make king, and Kim is currently trying to keep them too busy to decide. Hence the state of war; not aggression, more make work.

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[BrookHarty]

brook no signs of weakness.

/sigh

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[jez9999]

He should've renamed himself Kim Jong-Deux and told them to go look for his older brother.

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[CodeBuster]

no armistice was signed when the Korean War ended.

No formal peace treaty ending hostilities was signed. There was an armistice in place from the end of the fighting and the establishment of the DMZ until the North Koreans abandoned it during the recent kerfuffle.

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[ozmanjusri]

Just be harty me old mate, you'll be over the wee brook in nae time.

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[Marxdot]

Puerile bollocks worthy of a Hollywood film plot.

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[X0563511]

Kind of hard to do that when you are supposed to be a deity.

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[X0563511]

Er, I don't see where he said anything contrary.

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[gl4ss]

well how many times can you announce that you're going to attack?

What an utterly idiotic thing to say. What OP said is factually correct, officially there has existed a state of war between North and South Korea for 60 years, no armistice was signed when the Korean War ended. Get some knowlege before you oopen your mouth.

what's idiotic about it? how the fuck does what I said translate to something that needs to be countered with there being a state of war? if anything it makes it more relevant. how the fuck can they declare war if they're already in war and effectively declared war last time last fucking week? EVERY FUCKING WEEK the headline is that North Korea has made some announcement or another that an attack is imminent - cut phone lines and cut more phone lines - aimed guns and then put some more guys in battle posture. being in a state of war isn't the same thing as there being an on-going battle.. and there isn't an on going battle. what the north korea is doing is keeping it's military in ready state month after month. what fucking ready-state that is? it's just taking away liberties from soldiers - no home vacations etc.

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[mapkinase]

>If you go soft, you'll be assassinated

This is bullshit. HIstory knows plenty of cases when useless dictators led life full of weaknesses and have not been assassinated for that reason

Now, interfering with others' manipulation of you, that would get you certainly killed.

This is a baseless speculation.

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[rtb61]

Psychopaths only care about their own hide, family fulfil the role of show piece pets. North Korea is a straight up psychopath playground and currently and very political unstable one. The declaration of war shows exactly how unstable the leadership has become, at least they were only crazy enough to declare war on South Korea and not on the United States.

However as nuclear weapons can quite readily be placed upon merchant vessels and those merchant vessels can destructively enter any port in the world. Should all North Korean merchant vessels be blocked from leaving North Korean waters and prevented from approaching any allied fleet. China and Russia would both be hard pressed and seriously diplomatically compromised should a North Korea merchant vessel carry a nuclear weapon into an allied port.

A declaration of war carries serious trade consequences, basically an end of trade for obvious reasons, as no side can trust the transport of the other http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_raider, so not something new but something that needs to be treated seriously in an age of nuclear, biological and chemical weapons.

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[Anonymous Coward]

Interesting, and your point on China is mostly spot-on. I will say, though, that probably the *only* country China or Korea would be less interested in having a hand in their business than the US is Japan. No chance that would happen -- they're despised in a way that I think most westerners don't really understand.

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[Anonymous Coward]

I was responding to the idea that Kim might somehow be compelled to keep his position in order to protect his life of privilege. I don't think it's true.

I just had the most amazing idea. "Coming this fall on NBC, Rodman and Kim: what happens when a failed North Korean dictator and a retired basketball player move into a 1-bedroom apartment in Brooklyn? We follow the pair of buddies as they navigate the maze of life, work, and hooking up, in the big city!"

I would WATCH that shit. I would watch that shit SO HARD my tv would break.

Rodman gets a new lease on life, and Kim Jong Un can live the life of a playboy!

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[Immerman]

I quite agree. However if we're discussing relative power within a puppet government then China might prefer a situation where the US gets 8 votes and Japan 2 to the situation where the US gets 10 votes, and the US might be willing to concede the influence in order to finalize a deal. Despised or not, 2 votes on their own aren't likely to be worth much, and there's no guarantee that Japan will always vote the way the US tells it to, thus potentially reducing the US influence in some key descisions.

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[Immerman]

Some might consider knowing that abdication will set up a situation where your erstwhile subjects will suffer considerably worse than they would have otherwise to be a compelling reason to continue to play the roll assigned. Do we have any direct evidence that Jong Un is a completely amoral bastard whose conscience wouldn't twinge at being responsible for a few thousand or million extra deaths? Certainly playing the part seems to be a precondition of his position, but that says nothing about what he actually sees when he looks in the mirror.

I quite agree that if he were so inclined he could likely duck out with enough cash to live the high life, but there could be several factors other than actually wanting to be god-emperor that would keep him from doing so, up to and including having a shred of conscience. Or a threat of retaliatory assassination by the losers in any power-grab predicated on his departure. Or...

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[flayzernax]

Thanks a ton for the interesting clarification of this kind of political maneuver rtb61 =)

Indeed it seems like a bad move to make from a trade perspective. But NK has pretty much been screwed in that department for a long time.

Re:Didn't they get the memo?

[rtb61]

More than just trade, it requires an actual physical blockade of North Korean flagged ships until the declaration of war is withdrawn and the capture of North Korean ships in international waters escorting them back to North Korean waters. North Korean air travel can also be challenged.

Nothing New

[rolfwind]

IIRC, North Korea has declared war on the South multiple times since the armistice. In short, it's nothing new.

NK has had particularly bad farm yields and has trouble feeding it's army - recently China returned 12 NK soldiers that tried to escape. In years past, this wouldn't have happened as NK was keen to always make sure the Army got food but rations were cut last year. It needs an increase in foreign aid to hold itself up. That's what all this sword rattling is about. I hope that everyone lets them drop.

Re:Nothing New

[schwit1]

What happens when the NK leadership gets to a point where they feel they have nothing to lose by attacking?

Re:Nothing New

[binarylarry]

Unified Korea and scores of dead North Koreans.

But the people in North Korea have created this mess, so it's only right they take the heaviest losses.

Re:Nothing New

[ub3r n3u7r4l1st]

Then watch the regime falls quickly within days and people will be liberated. This is even easier than Iraq.

Re:Nothing New

[blind biker]

recently China returned 12 NK soldiers that tried to escape.

I shudder at the thought of those soldiers' fate, considering that NK has concentration camps where entire families are kept in sub-human conditions, tortured, experimented upon etc.

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

What happens when the NK leadership gets to a point where they feel they have nothing to lose by attacking?

The worst that could happen is that San Francisco, Seattle, or Los Angeles need to start contingency plans for dealing with nuclear radiation in an urban environment. Japan might want to consider the same.... at least fallout from a North Korea that is turned into a sea of glass.

Hopefully there is a North Korean general that will get fed up with the whole thing and overthrow the current monarchy that is running the North Korean government.

On a happier side, there is the potential that the two Koreas might just learn to get along and avoid a confrontation and possibly seek reunification like happened between East and West Germany. That could be a short-term economic disaster for South Korea to deal with the incredibly impoverished North, but in the long term it would be beneficial for the whole region of the world.

Re:Nothing New

[Rockoon]

Unified Korea and scores of dead North Koreans.

This, and its the last thing that China wants. Korea would become the next Germany in 25 or so years.

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

The North Korean military isn't any match for the South Koreans & the USA. Everyone knows that.

The real threat is because Seoul is so close to the border. You'll get thousands (millions?) of artillery shells fired at Seoul, resulting in lots of civilian casualties & destruction.

Re:Nothing New

[confused one]

No it won't, for two reasons.

For 60 years they've been instilling in their populous that their Dear Leader is a god (or god-like). While many fear and loath him, any that have shown open dissent have been killed or put in re-education camps. The population will not rise up against the NK leadership.

For 60 years NK has been digging in and building weapons. They may not be as technically sophisticated as their neighbor, they may not have the weapons technology available to the U.S., but they have weapons and personell in quantity. Technically, they have one of the largest armies in the world, with over a million active and eight million reserve. A conflict with NK could drag on for years.

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

What happens when the NK leadership gets to a point where they feel they have nothing to lose by attacking?

Then their problem with having a military so large that they can't feed it would be rapidly resolved.

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

Quite a nice set of palaces you have there. It would be a shame if anything "happened" to them.

Re:Nothing New

[hxnwix]

What happens when the NK leadership gets to a point where they feel they have nothing to lose by attacking?

They'll never get to that point. Less aide means more people starve until only Kim Jong Un remains - in a bunker, watching Tom & Jerry. Going to war means the game is up and Kim Jong Un has to find another line of work. He will never pull the trigger.

Re:Nothing New

[myowntrueself]

Unified Korea and scores of dead North Koreans.

But the people in North Korea have created this mess, so it's only right they take the heaviest losses.

The situation on the Korean peninsula wasn't exactly created by the Korean people. It was engineered by the Americans, Chinese, Russians and Japanese; because a unified Korea would have been so economically powerful NONE of the above wanted it to exist. Even though these parties were so ideologically opposed to each other they could still agree that a powerful Korea would be bad for their interests.

Seriously; had Korea not been divided it would be immensely powerful economically and militarily, due to mineral wealth PLUS strong agriculture and industry; a genuine rival to China and more powerful than Russia in the region. It would have been a major threat to American control over Japan following WW2 due to the sway it would have had over the post-war Japanese economy.

So between them they engineered North VS South and divided the peninsula.

Re:Nothing New

[Phil-14]

Unified Korea and scores of dead North Koreans.

But the people in North Korea have created this mess, so it's only right they take the heaviest losses.

I must have missed the part where the government of North Korea was truly democratic instead of a bunch of despotic thugs installed by Russia and China back in the Cold War.

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

there is the potential that the two Koreas might just learn to get along and avoid a confrontation and possibly seek reunification like happened between East and West Germany.

Very doubtful. The ruling class would cease being the ruling class if this happened.

Re:Nothing New

[CdBee]

Or it could be ended in 5 minutes if anyone had the balls to use a neutron weapon in the role it was designed for.

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

Then watch the regime falls quickly within days and people will be liberated. This is even easier than Iraq.

Assuming China doesn't do anything stupid, defeating North Korea would be easier than Iraq. No questions asked.

However, winning the hearts of the North Koreans would be incredibly harder. Remember, this is a culture that, for at least a generation or two, has been completely brainwashed into thinking their Dear Leader(tm)(r)(c) is some sort of god. Information rarely enters the country, even worse than in Iraq. Most of the people there quite literally know absolutely nothing other than the Kim dynasty and their god-kid emperor.

The best-case scenario isn't "liberation". It's "utter confusion". The people seriously wouldn't understand what's going on or what to do. Sure, right away, it might not be the same "GTFO Americans" attitude in the Middle East, but the outcome still wouldn't be good, and there's a good chance it'll quickly develop into Middle East II: Korean Boogaloo.

Re:Nothing New

[Sqr(twg)]

What is new is that U.S. media is making a big deal out of it this time. Normally, this kind of talk does not even make it into the news, much less on to the front page.

All the wars that the U.S. has fought in recent time have been preceeded by massive media coverage about the country that was about to be invaded.

Re:Nothing New

[dinfinity]

but they have weapons and personell in quantity

Half of them are photoshopped, though.

Re:Nothing New

[amiga3D]

I'm pretty sure we've always been at war with East Asi....uh.....North Korea.

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

Then South Korea and its allies will have to deal with a bunch of half-starved soldiers with few resources. Probably the closest thing you'd find to a real life zombie attack, except there's no chance of infections and a small chance of defections.

Re:Nothing New

[cdrudge]

For 60 years they've been instilling in their populous that their Dear Leader is a god (or god-like).

I seriously wonder how quickly their beliefs would change should food, clothing, medicine, etc become readily available by the "imperialist aggressors".

If I'm cold, sick, and on the brink of starvation, it's not going to take much for me to ditch whatever current beliefs I have.

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

What happens, well they become an occupied Chinese province.

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

The only neutron weapon anyone has is a nuclear bomb, where neutron radiation is the least of one's concerns. Try to separate reality and fiction.

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

very good idea
i wonder if it could be somewhat minimzed or localized because the surrounding populations of japan china etc prolly wont like that very much if the EMP affects them
it would turn off fearless leader like flipping a switch

Re: Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

are you unfamiliar with communist regimes? I bet 90% of that artilerly has been sold for scrap to china.

they don't even have enough fuel to do drills. they will have to send all their soldiers across on foot.

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

This, and its the last thing that China wants. Korea would become the next Germany in 25 or so years.

Not exactly. East Germany's economy was much more developed than South Korea, yet unification almost crippled the Germany economy. Unification with N. Korea is not going to be an easy task.

Re:Nothing New

[gtall]

N. Korea attacked first. History is always an interesting read.

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

I seriously doubt North Korea would become a major industrialized country that provides most of Europes income in just 25 years.

Re:Nothing New

[CrimsonAvenger]

They may not be as technically sophisticated as their neighbor, they may not have the weapons technology available to the U.S., but they have weapons and personell in quantity. Technically, they have one of the largest armies in the world, with over a million active and eight million reserve. A conflict with NK could drag on for years.

Dropping back 60 years, pretty much everything you said above was true, except the part about not having the weapons technology of the USA (they were using Soviet tech then, which in terms of tanks/artillery/infantry/aircraft was as good as or better than the comparable gear the Amis were using at the time).

The NK Army lasted about six months before it was driven back to the Chinese border and the PLA bailed them out....

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem there is that South Korea already is a major player in the electronics industry and a war would almost certainly destroy much of that.

Re:Nothing New

[dcollins]

Do you know that a "score" is the same as "twenty"? I feel like you either (a) didn't know that, (b) are making some kind of joke, or (c) estimating a very low number for a reason I can't detect.

That is: "scores of dead", for example 2-10 score, would imply between 40 and 200 dead or so. Usually when the U.S. goes to war there are thousands or hundreds of thousands dead, which is really a terrible thing.

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

Does North Korean leadership look like they have nothing to lose? They're the ones who have everything to lose. If they attack, their luxurious lifestyle will be traded for life behind bars.

Re:Nothing New

[ubersoldat2k7]

defeating North Korea would be easier than Iraq. No questions asked.

Don't be so sure about this. Iraq is pretty much a plain desert, whereas NK is a jungle with lots of mountains and a pretty rough winter. Iraq military was still relieving from the Iran-Iraq war and the previous Gulf war and after those two, I don't think many Iraqi soldiers (also divided by tribal believes) were about to give their lives for their leaders.

Re:Nothing New

[dwillden]

IIRC, North Korea has declared war on the South multiple times since the cease fire agreement. In short, it's nothing new.

FTFY there was never an armistice in Korea, just a cease fire.

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

Then the U.S. will drop enough HE onto NK until only the stone age exists there. No modern civilization, no cities, no industrial areas - they'll be blasted back to hunter gatherers, then the SK troops will mop up and take over.

Oh - and glorious fucktard leader of NK will be iddy biddy tiny ludicrous gibs...

Re:Nothing New

[Hal_Porter]

I think the South Koreans would take advantage of the first point to land north of the DMZ and attack the NK troops there from the north.

Re:Nothing New

[dwillden]

You are correct that it would be different, but a fight with NK would be more along the traditional lines and one that we have trained for for decades. The Jungles/forests might be an issue for some of our troops, but not for many of them. We've been training for this potential conflict since the cease fire was signed, we've role-played and gamed and exercised for this continually.

We have a division of Army dedicated to Korea. We have Fighter and bomber wings dedicated to Korea, we have massive stockpiles of equipment and ammo in place all along the peninsula, we train there year round (something we had not really done to a great deal in regards to the deserts of Iraq.)

As to winters, we've been in Afghanistan for how long? The winters there are pretty rough as well. I'll grant that it most likely wouldn't be as quick or easy like marching on Bagdad (but then again no three day dust storms to basically halt our advances either).

The worst/scariest part of hostilities resuming would be that the second the first rounds are fired in earnest by either side or the first troops cross the DMZ, Seoul is going to be leveled by the massive, emplaced and already aimed, artillery barrage that NK has had set up for decades.

Re:Nothing New

[bruce_the_loon]

All four nuclear nations had designs and probably operational devices for enhanced radiation reduced blast weapons, aka neutron bombs, that released the neutrons generated by the initial phase of the bomb instead of the full ionizing and shock blasts. They did this with fission-fusion bombs with deliberate ineffective X-ray and neutron mirrors. The US W79-0 had a neutron bomb mode.

All such weapons were destroyed as part of SALT and SALT II, but who knows what still sits in a cupboard.

Re:Nothing New

[dwillden]

Wrong, I see no more extensive coverage (well except for all the coverage of the B-2 training mission) than has been presented every time NK starts rattling it's sabers. This happens every few years, it gets plenty of coverage and then fades away until NK is feeling neglected again and starts the process all over again.

19 years ago when I was at Basic Training they started rattling their sabers and the Drill Sergeants used the threat of conflict to impress upon us that although we had signed up for various specific jobs, if needed they would simply change the scope of BCT to Infantry BCT and send us off as infantry. Whether that was true or not is beside the point, the point is that this is nothing new, do a little research and you'll see this saber rattling and the corresponding news coverage is nothing new. It has just briefly peaked above the latest antics of the Kardashians in the amount of coverage it is getting.

Re:Nothing New

[Black Parrot]

The situation on the Korean peninsula wasn't exactly created by the Korean people. It was engineered by the Americans, Chinese, Russians and Japanese; because a unified Korea would have been so economically powerful NONE of the above wanted it to exist.

When this situation was 'engineered', "Made in Japan" wasn't even a joke yet, "Made in Korea" came along even later.

Re:Nothing New

[binarylarry]

cool story bro

Re:Nothing New

[DarkOx]

Exactly this.

Its a ploy to get more handouts from the West nothing more nothing less. You can't say "shut up or the aide check is void either." If he shuts up he will appear weak and it will probably get him killed. The best thing to do here is simple cut the aide off no discussion. The time to do this is now before they create more reliable weapons and delivery systems. One of three things will happen in order of likeliness:

1) Nothing; South Korea and China will step in and provide the food and monetary aide the DPRK needs. We are better off its less of our own wealth going out the door and we don't lose any influence because we never had any with DPRK anyway.

2) DPRK lashes out and strikes at South Korea, Japan, or us; Chances are good the actual damage is minimal or the attack outright fails. Depending on who gets attacked Either we or China take the lead in shutting it down fast. China will either do this or allow it because they don't want the region developing into a war zone. Ultimately China probably ends up effectively occupying the country or at least running it. As far as we are concerned this changes little where the balance of power is concerned.

3) DPRK is simply allowed to collapse and becomes just another failed state like Yemen or Somalia; South Korea and China are forced to spend a little more on border security. The DPRK becomes a slightly more of a sad little hell hole than it already is, but unlike today the rest of the world simply stops thinking about it; well until some dipshit tries to blow up time square after fixing some fireworks to the side of propane cylinder with sticky tape after posting on some DPRK militant web forum.

Really that is about the whole of it. Send a memory to the USAID folks to stop payment on the next check and wait.

Re:Nothing New

[Black Parrot]

N. Korea attacked first.

No, Han did.

Re:Nothing New

[sjames]

The solution is to kill Dear Leader with cruise missiles and drones. Then N. Korea will go to war against itself for a little bit.

Re:Nothing New

[AnujMore]

Photoshop? What is this - some kind of capitalism?
Why can't we use those communist software things you get for free? They can do the same work, right?
What? GIM... what?

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

Until you're told, by the people who were with you for your entire life, that that nice piece of food is filled with poison and they'll torture you to death when you wake up.

Re:Nothing New

[DarkOx]

It all depends are what you are willing to do. Because of its proximity to other nations a neutron bomb as someone suggest is probably no go; but if you don't care how many civilians you kill or maim the area is not so large you could not just carpet bomb the whole thing; from high altitude likely out of effective reach of the Anti Aircraft equipment. Anyone know what the DPRK has in terms of old Soviet arms and or newer Chinese built stuff that could hit a B-52?

Re:Nothing New

[phantomfive]

Seoul is within shelling range of a huge number of N Korea artillery. It wouldn't be outrageous to say that millions of S Koreans could die on the first day of the war.

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

Which, speaking in a brutally pragmatic way, is probably a massive gain compared to the previous set-up.

Re:Nothing New

[mikechant]

The majority will adapt quickly (if you are starving, food is a *very* powerful motivation); a minority will go postal.

Re:Nothing New

[binarylarry]

True but I'm willing to bet the artillery will be swiftly bombed/cruise missiled out of existence in the first few hours of the war.

Re:Nothing New

[Luckyo]

He's not talking about consumerism. He's talking about adding one extremely powerful player to the table that is very much full already. And he is as correct as you are naive.

Re:Nothing New

[phantomfive]

Maybe. A lot of it's hidden really well. This isn't like Iraq.

Re:Nothing New

[Luckyo]

They are pretty useless in modern theatre, which is why no one really objected to their destruction. They were originally meant as tactical weapons, as they have very low range, to take out massed tank forces. They became utterly inefficient as armour on tanks became thick enough to effectively prevent terminal effect of neutron bombardment around 70s-80s.

They could still be used against uncovered enemy, but their low range makes them largely unfeasible for this purpose. If you're willing to use nuclear weapons, you're much better off with conventional nuclear warheads that produce the destructive effect through combination of high temperature and pressure shockwave.

Re:Nothing New

[Luckyo]

NK army essentially won the war first, to the point where McArhur was insisting on nuclear solution because South Korea was for all bits and purposes taken except for small patches in the South. Then US hit with entire post-WW2 force, so NK was defending against US with no meaningful manpower support from USSR/China. And even in such an unbalanced scenario, they lasted about half a year.

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

mineral wealth.

I am reasonably sure that Starcraft did not exist back then.

Re:Nothing New

[aliquis]

What happens when the NK leadership gets to a point where they feel they have nothing to lose by attacking?

They learn that they could lose once again but so does other to and lots of civilians and anyone who have to die in a war.

And of course NK isn't alone in provoking. The U.S. play the same game.

I feel sad for anyone who would have to die or any part of land ruined and every building destroyed and what not if it ends with a war. So unnecessary.

Wish they just united again.

Some Swedish ad agency dropped those bears over "white russia" (is it called that in English?), has anyone dropped "this is the rest of the world" pamplets over NK? How many drones does the US have?

I assume pamplets wouldn't be taken as facts and I assume the leaders would see it as provoking to. But the west isn't all too bad.

I don't wish war and horror over neither of the north or south koreans or americans.

Re:Nothing New

[confused one]

And so, they're on foot or using stolen fuel; and, they manage to hold out for 6 months like they did 60 years ago. The U.S. expends 6 months and thousands of lives getting to this point (in the Korean war the U.S. had 36,000 dead and 92,000 wounded). Then we have to spend a couple of years cleaning up the mess and ferreting out the remaining old guard military units. It took a couple of days to smash the Iraqi military and the Afghan military, true; but, how long was the U.S. really engaged there. If memory serves, we're still in Afghanastan...

Re:Nothing New

[unixisc]

If North Korea collapses and becomes part of South Korea, thereby uniting, it would create a lot more real estate for the Koreans as a whole, and enable them to fill up the country. Like East Germany, the population, once it recovers, can be a part of the Samsung/LG/Hyundai success story. The South Koreans, instead of outsourcing their manufacturing to China, can instead outsource it to their Northern comrades for much cheaper, while they do the quality checks. A united Korea will be the biggest economic challenger to China

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

Not fast enough. IIRC, credible estimates of NK installed artillery capable of hitting Seoul range from ~ 4,000 to over 10,000. If we assume they can fire at an average rate of 1 round/minute, that's at least 4,000 shells/minute hitting Seoul if NK decides on an all-out "sea of fire" attack. Reduced a little because not every gun will work, etc.

If counterbattery fire (artillery + cruise missiles + other PGMs) were 100% effective beginning 5 minutes after the attack started, there would already have been 20,000 HE detonations in Seoul. And counterbattery is not likely to be that effective, that fast. More like days to reduce NK artillery positions to under 100, I would say.

In short, if NK is really stupid, Seoul will have a very bad day.

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

It would have been a major threat to American control over Japan following WW2 due to the sway it would have had over the post-war Japanese economy. So between them they engineered North VS South and divided the peninsula.

Right. The 8th Army fought nearly up to the Yalu river and sent postcards to China that read "Please come and overrun our over-extended asses. These ROK guys have such a swagger to them and we'd hate for anyone to have undue ~sway~ in Japan."

A genuine rival to China and more powerful than Russia in the region? What are you smoking?

Re:Nothing New

[fustakrakich]

When the market becomes saturated, the best way to create scarcity and raise prices is to destroy the factories.

Re:Nothing New

[Tough Love]

the second the first rounds are fired in earnest by either side or the first troops cross the DMZ, Seoul is going to be leveled by the massive, emplaced and already aimed, artillery barrage that NK has had set up for decades

Nonsense. Just surf on in to Seoul with google street view and the first thing you will notice is that it has hardly any tall buildings. It is a huge sprawling expanse of low concrete and steel buildings. An artillery barrage to level it would take months or years like in Syria, and that just isn't going to happen. A few hours at most, and Seoul is so big that the damage would be only a small fraction. And at the first sign of trouble the whole population will be in the subways and other prepared shelters. Don't imagine that this scenario has not been anticipated.

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

Was Korea actually an economic powerhouse back then? Was it really threatening to be? Or was "divide after conquering" just the default reaction during the Cold War -- a la Berlin -- to keep the peace between ideologue partisans?

I'm pretty damn sure that the very last thing SK wants is a few million (or, since we don't know how bad things really are over there, possibly even just a single million after they're done starving and shooting) starving, mal-educated and destroyed refugees to suddenly appear in their laps with the ruins of a hyper-corrupt power web and public mentality, an infrastructure worse than anything in Africa, and no fucking resources or any other monetary mitigating factor to ameliorate the process of reunification.

Re:Nothing New

[fafaforza]

Who knows?

The US on Thursday flew a B2 bomber from Missouri all the way to South Korea and dropped an unarmed 2,000lb warhead on a bombing range there, in broad daylight, in a show of force towards NK. The new Kim Jung might be the type of megalomaniac that would overreact to something like that.

Re:Nothing New

[Orcris]

North Korea has a huge assortment of artillery buried in the mountain that's designed to survive almost short of a nuke. And speaking of nukes, they have those as well. I doubt they could cause much damage to the US, but they could cause a lot to South Korea, China, and Japan.

Re:Nothing New

[Immerman]

That would certainly suck for the S.Koreans, but might actually be seen as an added bonus by some of the other interested powers, a crippled South Korea would make for considerable new economic opportunities.

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

All war is based on deception.

In any situation where an evil action was taken, and any ostensibly uninvolved third parties benefit from that evil action, it can be safely assumed that the third parties caused it.

Nobody ever does anything evil for their own benefit or out of insanity or stupidity. Any action ever taken must be the result of covert action by those who posture as innocently uninvolved.

Always.

Whenever your history books disagree with more interesting conspiracy theories, it is a safe bet that the history books are wrong.

Re:Nothing New

[SternisheFan]

Yes, 'score' means 'twenty'. Very good son, you get a gold star for knowing that, your parents will be quite proud.

"Scores" can also mean an indeterminate large number. You didn't know that. Gold star taken back, parents shamed.

The OP's usage was correct.

Re:Nothing New

[Orcris]

All four nuclear nations

There are 9 nuclear nations: France, the UK, China, Russia, the USA, India, Pakistan, Israel, and North Korea. Out of those, the first 5 are all recognized in the NPT. India, Pakistan, and Israel never signed the NPT. North Korea withdrew. Which 4 are you talking about?

Re:Nothing New

[bruce_the_loon]

The original Powers of USA, USSR, UK and France in the early heyday of nuclear weapons development in the 50's and 60's when these devices were developed. The other five are johnny-come-latelies. :)

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

timei danaos et dona ferentes.

America's so fucking arrogant (still! in 2013) that it fails to realise how unappealing its regime is to those who have not already been indoctrinated.

Re:Nothing New

[rastoboy29]

Nice theory, too bad it's nonsense.  Seriously, do you have any evidence?

Isn't it much more logical that it was simply a struggle for control over Korea by the more powerful nations, that ended in a deadlock?

Korea had never been a potent independent economic player in history--I very much doubt the current status of the south, for example, was something anyone from outside Korea was expecting.

It's *not* that big a country, bro.  Your argument doesn't make any sense, and you have no evidence, so please don't spread drivel.  Bad enough we have Glen Beck conjecturing on camera...

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

An armistice and a cease fire agreement are the same thing. There was an armistice to stop the fighting, but no peace treaty to end the war.

Re:Nothing New

[rossdee]

"All four nuclear nations had designs and probably operational devices for enhanced radiation reduced blast weapons, aka neutron bombs"

Even back in 1970' there were more than 4 nuclear armed nations - USA , USSR, China, Britain and France all had independent nuclear programs and control of the warheads. I think that all the other countries in the Warsaw Pact would have had Russian control of the tactical weapons with their forces.

Re:Nothing New

[jalefkowit]

The U.S.'s "entire post-WW2 force" was not the juggernaut you make it out to be. By 1950 the army that fought WW2 had been demobilized; what remained was a small number of career officers and a mass of conscripts with sub-standard training who did not expect to face a hot war anytime soon. The conventional wisdom among American policymakers was that the atomic bomb had made ground forces obsolete, so keeping up a first-class Army was not a priority for them. Moreover, any serious risk of war was assumed to be coming from the Soviets, so what good forces the Army could muster were clustered in Germany and Western Europe to defend NATO.

The North Koreans' early successes were due to the element of surprise they seized with their invasion of the South, the unpreparedness of the U.S. forces in the theater for a major conflict, and the logistical difficulties of reinforcing them due to the long distances between Korea and the mainland U.S. Despite these handicaps, U.S. general Walton Walker managed to halt the North Korean advance, and MacArthur turned the tide by landing behind North Korean lines at Inchon. Once that happened the NK forces fell apart.

I'm also not sure what you mean about "NK was defending against US with no meaningful manpower support from USSR/China." When it became clear that the North Koreans had collapsed and could not prevent MacArthur from reaching the Chinese border, the Chinese sent large numbers of their own troops down to do the job for them, and they did it well. If it weren't for Chinese intervention the North Korean government would not have survived to see 1951.

Re:Nothing New

[DragonWriter]

Not exactly. East Germany's economy was much more developed than South Korea

Presumably, you mean North Korea. Because otherwise, WTF?

yet unification almost crippled the Germany economy. Unification with N. Korea is not going to be an easy task.

Short term, no, but I wouldn't be surprised to see a unified Korea as the dominant economic powerhouse of East Asia 25 years after reunification.

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

You've conveniently left out of your anti-US diatribe the fact that the communists from North Korea and China attacked South Korea in an attempt to take over the entire country, which was fought back by a United Nations force.

Anti-US conspiracy theories might be well accepted in your social circle, but you should at least come up with some which are coherent with reality.

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, in Chinese, "Han" is how you pronounce the word for Korean.

Re:Nothing New

[tobia.conforto]

Your sig lacks a trailing ./a

Seriously, do you think it funny to post dangerous things without warning labels—or any kind of label?

Re:Nothing New

[DragonWriter]

The situation on the Korean peninsula wasn't exactly created by the Korean people. It was engineered by the Americans, Chinese, Russians and Japanese; because a unified Korea would have been so economically powerful NONE of the above wanted it to exist.

Not really true. Japan might not have, but no one was really listening to them at the end of WWII. America and Russia both wanted a United Korea to exist, and both wanted to direct how it was going to be set up. Same as in Germany, they each saw half a loaf and not fighting a war with each other immediately as superior, in the short term, to any other alternative that was on the table.

Re:Nothing New

[DragonWriter]

. It wouldn't be outrageous to say that millions of S Koreans could die on the first day of the war.

Well, it would be somewhat of outrageous in the degree of understatement that comes from saying "day" when "5 minutes" is probably more accurate.

Re:Nothing New

[DragonWriter]

NK army essentially won the war first, to the point where McArhur was insisting on nuclear solution because South Korea was for all bits and purposes taken except for small patches in the South.

That was because they invaded after the US had withdrawn, and had essentially won a NK-SK one-on-one match before the US could deploy.

You might notice that that's not an option anymore, so even if the balance of power between the two Koreas taken alone was the same in 2013 as it was in 1950, that result wouldn't be a good guide to what is likely now.

 

Re:Nothing New

[DragonWriter]

However, winning the hearts of the North Koreans would be incredibly harder. Remember, this is a culture that, for at least a generation or two, has been completely brainwashed into thinking their Dear Leader(tm)(r)(c) is some sort of god.

This is a culture that, for at least a generation or two, has faced starvation and deprivation of the masses contrasted against the visible luxury of the elite in a fairly stunning manner. If you don't just import a foreign (and South Korean is "foreign" in this case) elite to replace the old guard, its probably not all that hard to get them (the masses, rather than the remnants of the old elits) to abandon any affection for the Leader (Great, Dear, or otherwise).

Getting them attached to something else in any kind of durable way, of course, would be less easy.

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

Same thing for Vietnam. They wanted to remove French colonial power. Then the Brits got involved. Then the US got involved to show the others how to deal with "commies". All while the purpose of revolt was not communism - it was nationalism.

Similarly in Korea. The war was for unification more than anything else. If China didn't want a buffer zone, North Korea would not exist today. If US didn't want to fight communism, Korea would be completely different from today, maybe closer to Vietnam.

Anyway, get off my lawn and all that stuff.

Re:Nothing New

[phantomfive]

Very true.

Re:Nothing New

[Billly Gates]

Stravation strengthens Kim's image and creates anger at the US and SK for causing it as the aggressors.

From the viewpoint of a NK you have a God like leader who loves you and all wants what is good for everyone. However, this evil horrible santanical man is the one stomping it next to an equally evil 900 pound gorrila who interferers with other countries affairs and is now causing horrible starvation, death, and excersizes to scare your leader who loves you into submission!

Who are these evil people and why can't they leave you alone so you can get food!!

FYI North Koreans have no access to the outside world. Both TVs and radios are glued into one frequency with 24 hour government propaganda. They have no internet so they believe that extreme viewpoint I just gave because everyone they ever known does. It is taught in school, radio, TV, work, and your mandatory military service. The USSR at least got smuggled movies and rock and roll music so they knew their governmetn was full of shit. The Kim's have it locked down very good.

Starvation is pretty effective as a result to earn more support. If the USSR won and invaded Mexico and Canada and isolated the US where we did not have food would you think more highly of the USSR and be mad at your government? Or the opposite.?

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

They'd become as powerful a country as the re-united Viet Nam.

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

How did this clown get a +4 Insightful? Korea exists as it does today because the US and China didn't want to get into a protracted war. Go read a fucking History book, moron.

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

The solution is to kill Dear Leader with cruise missiles and drones. Then N. Korea will go to war against itself for a little bit.

Or, we could just give them Tom Cruise, and call it a day.

Re:Nothing New

[JThundley]

That mineral wealth is what really scares me. Imagine the south dropping mules on all the mineral patches of the north while at the same time the north gains the technology necessary to inject larva on their hatcheries.

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

The North Koreans must know this too, so what about sheer numbers of artillery on their side? Sounds like a plausible tactic, sheer numbers.
How many shells could rain down on Seoul in the first few volleys?

Obviously those initial artillery batteries will themselves be targeted by the reply from the South so I cant imagine them getting many volleys off before they are destroyed.

I wonder what current military simulations show as being the likely outcome?

Re:Nothing New

[MichaelSmith]

And you get a new Dear Leader with the same problem.

Re:Nothing New

[sjames]

But the next one will be a bit more hesitant to declare a state of war and he'll start out much weaker.

Re:Nothing New

[rossdee]

MacArthur attacked at Inchon and caught them in the flank. Then the forces at the end of the peninsula attacked as well and the NK forces were driven right back to the Yalu river.

He didn't ask for the nukes until the Chinese army attacked and the UN forces were driven back by the sheer numbers.

Re:Nothing New

[MaskedSlacker]

Actually it's how you pronounce Chinese in Chinese. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Chinese

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

The GDP of China is over $7 trillion. Of Korea... $1 trillion. Even if a unified Korea tripled their GDP to $3 trillion, China's GDP coule easily quadruple or quintuple during that time, because China has hundreds of millions more impoverished workers.

China doesn't want N. Korea to change because China like's having a buffer. China dominates N. Korea, Vietnam, Myanmar/Burma, and almost every country it's adjacent too. The only exceptions are Pakistan and India, with which it has often times tense relations (especially the latter, thought that gives it leverage w/ the former), and Mongolia and Russia. But Mongolia has historically been under the protection of Russia.

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice theory, too bad it's nonsense. Seriously, do you have any evidence?

Isn't it much more logical that it was simply a struggle for control over Korea by the more powerful nations, that ended in a deadlock?

Korea had never been a potent independent economic player in history--I very much doubt the current status of the south, for example, was something anyone from outside Korea was expecting.

It's *not* that big a country, bro. Your argument doesn't make any sense, and you have no evidence, so please don't spread drivel. Bad enough we have Glen Beck conjecturing on camera...

For somebody who is so "evidence oriented", maybe you should do a little research yourself and quit spreading your own "drivel". First, it's Glenn Beck, and secondly he has a fascinating history of being mostly correct on his predictions. If course it's easier for you just to shoot your mouth off than actually obtain facts for yourself.

Re:Nothing New

[Tough Love]

The North Koreans must know this too, so what about sheer numbers of artillery on their side?

Big guns cost serious money. It's much cheaper to put in just enough guns to be credible then talk the threat up as much as possible. As for sheer numbers, I suppose the high water mark was World War 1, after the role of artillery diminished as mobile armour because the most important factor, and later, air power. Artillery made a comeback in the form of missiles, but the problem for North Korea there is once again cost. Inaccurate missiles are even less effective than shells.

See here for a few details of one of the greatest failed artillery barrages ever.

Re:Nothing New

[crazyeddie740]

Your theory would be a lot more plausible if the history books showed any indication that the Americans even knew where Korea was before the Korean War. The partition between North and South happened because the USSR declared war on Japan at the very end of WWII. The Americans took a look at the map for a good five minutes, and then proposed the split just to keep Russia from claiming the whole thing. Stalin, who was more concerned about Eastern Europe, agreed.

Ironically, the South was more agrarian, and had a existing Communist movement; and the North was relatively industralized and more pro-Western. Both sides of the partition were put under dictators since the Koreans on both sides of the divide weren't exactly happy with their new imperial overlords. South Korea finally became democratic at the end of the '80s.

There is a theory that one of the causes of the Korean War was Truman having a brain-fart during a speech, and left it off the list of places America would protect if they were attacked by the Commies. Not entirely his fault, since South Korea was a long way away from being the economic powerhouse it is today.

Sure, the current situation isn't the fault of the North Korean *people*. I'd put the blame on the North Korean *government*, the usual nasty-ass Cold War leftovers, and, as in all things, a heaping helping of Hanlon's Razor.

Re:Nothing New

[sir-gold]

Stuff like this makes me wonder if North Korea is so isolated and full of itself that their military actually thinks the rest of the world is dumb enough to fall for a trick like that.

Part of me hopes they are, because this could be a REALLY easy win for the US. Maybe we can just send in swarms of drones (in sky-darkening amounts) armed with fake plastic bombs and simply scare them into surrendering, without actually killing anyone.

Re:Nothing New

[myowntrueself]

N. Korea attacked first. History is always an interesting read.

Who attacked first isn't the question. The whole thing was a set-up.

Re:Nothing New

[Type44Q]

But the people in North Korea have created this mess, so it's only right they take the heaviest losses.

This got modded insightful? The North Korean people didn't create this mess (they're just peons along for the ride, like the majority of people everywhere). It's leadership that's responsible... and only a fool would assume they really know what's going on here, considering how many players there are in this game and how long it's been going on for...

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

Interesting. I also wonder what innovative and high tech methods U.S. and S. Korean planners have come up with to quickly and effectively locate and take out that artillery. They've had plenty of time to think about it.

Re:Nothing New

[Sardaukar86]

Not exactly. East Germany's economy was much more developed than South Korea, yet unification almost crippled the Germany economy. Unification with N. Korea is not going to be an easy task.

Agreed, it won't be an easy task at all.

I can however imagine the load being shared by many nations pledging aid and assistance in the re-unification process. North Korea is essentially an ongoing humanitarian disaster for the population. It's obvious that if the they just put their nuclear programme on hold for a bit (they have their nuclear deterrent already) and focused on growing some damn food they'd probably be left alone. Still, if a war that takes out the regime does come to pass we'll see a relief effort like no other in our history.

Re:Nothing New

[Sardaukar86]

3) DPRK is simply allowed to collapse and becomes just another failed state like Yemen or Somalia; South Korea and China are forced to spend a little more on border security. The DPRK becomes a slightly more of a sad little hell hole than it already is, but unlike today the rest of the world simply stops thinking about it; well until some dipshit tries to blow up time square after fixing some fireworks to the side of propane cylinder with sticky tape after posting on some DPRK militant web forum.

There's another, slightly darker chapter that follows this outcome: loose nukes, plutonium stocks for the taking, reactors, waste storage.. a veritable terrorism supply shop. Happy times.

Re:Nothing New

[Teancum]

Just as Poland is the natural invasion route between Russia and Germany, as is Belgium between France and Germany (and I might add between Germany and England), Korea is right in the middle of a natural invasion route between China and Japan. That Siberia isn't too far away as well and Korea makes a nice route between Russia and Japan (for at least some ways to attack Japan including how America planned on attacking Japan in World War II had the nukes not worked), you get Korea stuck in the middle of a whole bunch of major global powers.

This isn't really something engineered but simply something that developed due to physical geography. Compared to all of these huge countries, they are a people that have been ravaged over the centuries with constant attacks and regularly changing allegiances depending on who had the upper hand at the time. World War II went through Korea both from Japan trying to get to China as well as Russia trying to get to Japan. That is where you ended up with the current situation.

Korea is a fairly big country, but China, Russia, and Japan are far larger and have many more people. Due to circumstances of geography, they are kind of stuck between all of these huge countries that frankly don't mind letting a much smaller nation stand in the middle acting as a buffer to each other's empires. That America ended up with Japan as a more or less friendly ally in a "cold war" against China and Russia sort of make Korea an inevitable flashpoint as well.

Re:Nothing New

[Teancum]

South Korea got foreign aid (both food and money) from Ethiopia during the Korean War. That should say a great deal about how they fit into the global pecking order at the time. They've certainly improved themselves considerably over the past fifty years.... and North Korea largely hasn't.

The largest difference here is that many people in North Korea still are family members who were divided by the war. Of the older Koreans, it includes full siblings and even a few parent-child relationships, but it is mostly cousins at this point in time. Still, they want to maintain those relationships and there still is a common language and culture to draw upon that would more than simply treat the people of North Korea as mere destitute refugees. It would be harder for North Korea to move into the 21st Century than it was for East Germany to modernize and for the two Germanies to reunite, but it could be done if the opportunity presented itself.

Re:Nothing New

[Teancum]

Using that logic, there were several other nations that had nuclear weapons in their countries, including all of the NATO countries at the time. Still, as you mention, all of the weapons were under direct control of one of the major nuclear powers, so they really couldn't be used except to further the foreign policy goals of the major powers.

Indeed that is largely the only reason why the UK and France still have nuclear weapons at all, as they want to retain local control over their nukes rather than needing to be reliant upon America to provide "protection" against a nuclear attack. Argentina largely dodged a bullet in the Falkland Island War as the UK really didn't care to deploy nukes against that country (not to mention it would have escalated the whole conflict far more than it needed to go). Still, it isn't wise to screw around with a nuclear power even if it is over territory out in the middle of nowhere that most people would be hard pressed to acknowledge even exists.

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

If it's a slow reunification where the economy isn't quite unified then it's doable. However if it's a reunification that resembles Germany's reunification, then more than likely the Korean economy would collapse. Although there would be cheap labor, infrastructure and general education still needs to be built up in N. Korea. Not so much buildings, but ports, roads and railways.

"Once the ‘leading’ economic performer of the east bloc, East Germany was wealthier than North Korea is now, and was heavily subsidised by the USSR throughout most the Cold War period. Less important North Korea never received such big handouts. Its current GDP per capita today is at most US$1,700; East Germany in 1989 was $10,000 (non-adjusted figures).

Worse still, North Korea trails the old East Germany in almost every area: environmental management, infrastructure, labour productivity, health care, education, technology, and, given this substantial lag, the cost of Korean unification will be much higher than that which took place between East and West Germany with the collapse of the Soviet Union. While, over 20 years, West Germany transferred 1.2 trillion euros to the 16 million people of 1989’s East Germany, North Korea’s larger and poorer population of nearly 24.5 million would require much more support."

http://www.eastasiaforum.org/2011/04/09/comparing-north-korea-to-east-germany/

The article also further states that the West Germany economy was stronger than the current S. Korean economy where W. Germany's GDP/capita was $24K vs. S.Korea's is ~$20K.

Re:Nothing New

[binarylarry]

Oh right, it's not *their* fault they support horrible leadership like that.

Who do you think builds NK's roads, maintains their military, runs their death camps, etc.? Hint: it's not the leadership at all.

Fuck people who think like you.

Re:Nothing New

[unixisc]

North Korea was useful to China during the Cold War, when they won them over from the Soviets. But Vietnam broke from them and remained w/ the Soviets, and after the fall of the Soviet Union, that country, unlike China, has been quietly been loosening the party's grip on life w/o loosening its grip on power. Vietnam is still not pro-China, and has been mending relations w/ the US. The other countries China borders - Laos, Myanmar, Nepal, Bhutan, India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan and Kyrgyzstan. Tajikistan and Kyrgyzstan are still under Russian influence, and one that China probably worries about the most, since that region falling could cause unrest in Xinxiang. Laos was last a satellite state of Vietnam. Bhutan is more or less independent, while in Nepal, the Maoists have a tenuous hold on power. India is an old rival, and Pakistan is more complicated: China is their ally when it comes to India, but the Uyghur separatists are under al Qaeda's umbrella, which freely operates out of Pakistan.

Re:Nothing New

[roca]

That is not correct. When I toured the South Korean side of the DMZ the tour guide brought along an escapee from North Korea. She said that at least in her village (near the SK border) people generally had a pretty good idea of the true situation.

Re:Nothing New

[unixisc]

Why Europe? If they simply become part of Korea's economy over time, Korea will do just fine.

Re:Nothing New

[clam666]

I was browsing the library the other day and looking at, of all things, congressional record minutes which is utterly boring as hell. I was only in that section because, for some reason, in the opposite aisle was the book I wanted, about Samuel T. Cohen. I've never understood why university libraries are always set up in bizarre ways.

So I browsed one of these old congressional record books, and saw a section, ironially, about neutron bombs being discussed, with a fascinating discussion of the neutron bomb in committee. The best part was by a young Al Gore FOR neutron bombs (rather than against as I would have thought), and quite stridently so.

I thought it was maybe because of the environmentally friendly nature of such weapons, originally designed to irritate soviet tank blitzes, but I highly doubt he was even into environmental concerns that much in the past.

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

An artillery barrage to level it would take months or years like in Syria, and that just isn't going to happen.

This isn't Syria...
There aren't tens of mobile artillery placed outside of town.
There are hundreds and hundreds of static artillery batteries already aimed.
Not to mention the mobile artillery, self propelled guns, mortars, rocket batteries, etc.

Yea, SK are aware of the risk, and I'd bet most buildings have bomb shelters, close subway entrances, or similar. But the point is that no matter the protection they have, or comparison to other recent engagements, there's still enough "guns" pointed at Seoul right now, to kill hundreds of thousand in a few hours.

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

...more developed than South Korea...

I think you mean North Korea, unless you mean North Korea is best Korea.

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

Aye, hideous stuff. A bit like US camps.

Re:Nothing New

[X0563511]

China would have an opportunity to rake in some serious cash as they help Korea rebuild what used to be the northern half. Doing so could also go a long way towards mending their relationship.

Re:Nothing New

[aquabat]

Oh my God. I just had a huge metaphorical insight into the whole Star Wars story, with Han as the Chinese, and Greedo as the Americans. I have to go think about this now...

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

The only thing I have ever known Glenn Beck to be correct about was what he was going to play next when he was a DJ.

But perhaps you could inform us about what he has been correct about since he was doing the same job as Johnny Fever did at WKRP.

Re:Nothing New

[X0563511]

Just what do you mean by the "U.S. play the same game?"

The difference between NK saying the US is a threat, and the US saying NK is a threat, is the latter happens to be true.

Re:Nothing New

[Luckyo]

Exactly my point. Original claim was that NK was somehow weaksauce. Yet 1v1 they all but crushed the opponent, and not until a much more powerful enemy that already crushed the region's only superpower Japan came that they had to ask China for assistance. And even before that, the war of NK vs US was bloody and fairly slow considering the massive difference in forces.

Point being that one should not underestimate NK's military power even without Chinese direct military support.

Re:Nothing New

[Luckyo]

Indeed. When the region's only superpower comes into a local war between two small countries, it's pretty much expected that smaller country with no backup will lose.

US had just recently crushed the only regional superpower, Japan. It had significant bases all across the region, and heavy military presence against what essentially was a rag tag army of a country in ruins after long occupation. And it still struggled for a while.

To belittle this is not just stupid - it shows a lack of understanding of entire concept of "military might". This is an infantryman with a pistol managing to stand up face first to a modern MBT for a while before calling for help. Such ability is not something to be underestimated.

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

The United Kingdom (and its previous forms) is also *not* that big a country.

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

75 million vs over a billion, not exactly a threat to China. US, Japan, and Germany would all still have a bigger economy than a united Korea.

Re:Nothing New

[Patch86]

How is this a +5?

North Korea is a small and heavily populated country. It has (estimated) 24 million people in a space smaller than Mississippi. This isn't a vast wasteland that the South Koreans can fill up. Aside from the DMZ, which is only 2.5 miles wide, this would not produce "more real estate".

North Korea is also cripplingly poor. I mean we're not talking "Soviet-backed East Germany" poor, we're talking "24 million people who are starving" poor. South Korea is, of course, relatively rich. Unifying the country would mean that a country with the 13th biggest economy in the world would suddenly need to prop up a country with the 103rd biggest economy in the world. It would be an economic hell. I mean you think hitching the economy of Greece up to the economy of Germany went poorly, you see how that one turns out.

Unification would be politically good, but economically there is more or less no positive angle to be had in anything but the longest term.

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

Hate to tell ya, but back in the 50s, a unified Korea wouldn't have been an economically powerful state. The South wasn't all that great at the time.

Re:Nothing New

[aNonnyMouseCowered]

"A united Korea will be the biggest economic challenger to China."

A unified Korea can't be any mightier economically than the US, India or even a stagnating Japan. Unlike Japan, Korea Inc is only a few brands, chiefly a certain Apple competitor, and one or two motor companies.

Re:Nothing New

[aNonnyMouseCowered]

"Seriously; had Korea not been divided it would be immensely powerful economically and militarily, due to mineral wealth PLUS strong agriculture and industry; a genuine rival to China and more powerful than Russia in the region. It would have been a major threat to American control over Japan following WW2 due to the sway it would have had over the post-war Japanese economy. So between them they engineered North VS South and divided the peninsula."

You have your history wrong. Besides the undisputed leader Japan, the most economically advanced countries in the region at the time were Russia, China, the stagnating medieval superpower, and the Philippines, as a newly independent former US colony.

Korea was an agricultural backwater that the Japanese plundered for labor and whatnot. Having gone through its own civil war, China suffered economically but was still a more productive country than undivided Korea. South Korea's economic significance then and now pales in comparison to China and Japan's.

It's a stretch to compare a united Korea to Germany, which was already an economic powerhouse before it was partitioned by the victorious Allies. South Korea gained significance only after it was split off from the North.

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

Oops, you're right, he's wrong: The people of a country are entirely responsible for that country's policies.

I guess that means the obliteration of 15 sq mi of Dresden's civilian city center was justified (from the perspective of the Allies). Same for Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

And the destruction of the World Trade Center and part of the Pentagon was justified (from the perspective of al Qaeda) because all US civilians supported whatever it is that bin Laden was upset about.

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

Patently ridiculous. Korea was split up because we were Allies with the Russians and, at that time at least, we foolishly trusted them to abide by UN regulations. Just as we co-occupied Germany and Austria, we co-occupied Korea. It was the Russians who decided to attempt to unite the Korean peninsula under a communist dictatorship. Most of the blame should go to them for starting this whole situation.

Re:Nothing New

[binarylarry]

Oh right because singular acts in war time are somehow similar to decades of fucked up behavior.

I really love the comparison with the islamic fundamentalist nutbars, that was rich.

Fuck you.

Re:Nothing New

[rochrist]

Isn't that what they said about Saddam?

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

The North Korean military isn't any match for the South Koreans & the USA. Everyone knows that.

That's what they said in 1950. That's what they said in 1941 about Japan.

It isn't just the KPA we face, it's the KPA plus nukes. The nukes make all the difference. You can't concentrate your forces in the face of nukes. If North Korea had had nukes in 1950, Pusan would have been wiped out; the Inchon landing would have been wiped out.

Yes, we have nukes, too, but South Korea will not be happy if we use them in the south, and China will not be happy if we use them in the north. Remember what happened when we got China mad in 1950.

Re:Nothing New

[Reziac]

I'm also wondering just how long the NK armed forces would remain loyal once they've crossed the border... I'd guess until either each unit's CO runs out of ammo, or someone frags him.

Re:Nothing New

[dcollins]

No, one would have to be embarrassingly ignorant to not know that "score" means "twenty". And no, it does not get used for arbitrarily large numbers, any more than one would say that Bill Gates has made "thousands of dollars". That's just flat-out incorrect and stupid usage.

Re:Nothing New

[Jerome from Layton]

Need to "look around" some more. There are a lot of high rise apartment buildings, especially south of the Han River. The good news is that a lot of the heavy industry is farther south, out of artillery range. One way to figure out things are getting warm: A-10C aircraft show up in Kunsan AB and other air bases to the south.

Re:Nothing New

[ub3r n3u7r4l1st]

Don't even bother using a real military.

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3395133&cid=42643921

You have people like Jared Loughner and James Holmes. Give these animals a M16 and drop them in the middle of Pyongyang, and watch the fireworks begin.

Re:Nothing New

[MiG82au]

Oh right, apart from the thousands of 20+ storey apartment blocks that house most of the people. I don't think you'd claim it's sprawling if you had ever visited. More dense than any place I've ever seen is a better description.

Re:Nothing New

[SternisheFan]

It isn't ignorance. Yes, in common usage the word can be used to indicate a vague, overly large amount. Precisely, the word does mean 20. To what lengths are we going to go back and forth about this? I suggest we cut to the chase. Pistols at dawn!

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

Or, it's quite possible that all of Korea would look just like North Korea looks now.

Re:Nothing New

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesn't matter if its leveled. The city will effectively be shut down. That's a helluva blow to their economy. Comparing it to Syria is ridiculous, though -- completely different situation. Having that much artillery set up and ready to go is terrifying if you're on the receiving end. Make no mistake, there would be a *lot* of casualties -- don't imagine that North Korea doesn't know better than to give any indication that they're going to start shooting.

Re:Nothing New

[dcollins]

Here is a citation; below is the definition "score". Note that the loose usage of "a large amount or number of something" is a sub-part under the meaning of "twenty" (#2); that and the example show that the meaning is "about", or within an order-of-magnitude, of twenty. Only the stupidest of stupid people would say something like "Mercury is dozens of miles away"; it's uninformative, just like your ignorant usage of "score". I challenge you to come up with a prominent example of anyone using the word "scores" to mean "hundreds of thousands". Seriously, ask an English teacher and stop advertising your ignorance.

http://oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/score

Definition of score
noun

        1the number of points, goals, runs, etc., achieved in a game by a team or an individual:the final score was 25-16 in favor of Washington
        informal an act of gaining a point, goal, or run in a game.
        a rating or grade, such as a mark achieved in a test:an IQ score of 161
        (the score) informal the state of affairs; the real facts about the present situation:“Hey, what’s the score here, what’s goin' on?”
        informal an act of buying illegal drugs.
        informal the proceeds of a crime.

        2 (plural same) a group or set of twenty or about twenty:a score of men lost their lives in the battle Doyle’s success brought imitators by the score
        (scores of) a large amount or number of something:he sent scores of enthusiastic letters to friends

        3a written representation of a musical composition showing all the vocal and instrumental parts arranged one below the other.
        the music composed for a movie or play.

        4a notch or line cut or scratched into a surface.
        historical a running account kept by marks against a customer’s name, typically in a tavern.

Re:Nothing New

[SternisheFan]

Just to recap...

What "binarylarry" originally posted: " Unified Korea and scores of dead North Koreans..."

What your reply was: "Do you know that a "score" is the same as "twenty"? I feel like you either (a) didn't know that, (b) are making some kind of joke, or (c) estimating a very low number for a reason I can't detect.

That is: "scores of dead", for example 2-10 score, would imply between 40 and 200 dead or so. Usually when the U.S. goes to war there are thousands or hundreds of thousands dead, which is really a terrible thing."

What I replied to you: " Yes, 'score' means 'twenty'. Very good son, you get a gold star for knowing that, your parents will be quite proud.

"Scores" can also mean an indeterminate large number. You didn't know that. Gold star taken back, parents shamed.

The OP's usage was correct."

From your own definition that you just posted: "(scores of) a large amount or number of something..."

Binarylarry used the exact phrase "scores of", and part of the definition YOU just provided says "(scores of) a large amount or number of something...". Why then are we arguing about this anymore when your provided definition agrees with what I originally stated, that binarylarry's usage of "scores of" is correct??!?

If "Score" means "twenty", then "Scores of" means at least 40 or more, and there is no upper limit to what that number can be. It could mean 40 googleplex, though that's an extreme example on my part here. Your very definition of "scores of" validates my statement as true.

My reply to you 'was' a bit smarmy sounding, for that I'd like to extend my apology to you, I could have phrased it to you in a more congenial manner.

Thank you for helping to clear this up. I accept your definition, now can this matter be finally laid to rest? :-)

Re:Nothing New

[jd99gst]

The buildings are definitely all low, but the important businesses all tend to be bunched together, like on Yeoui-do and in Gangnam. Also, most people live in highly dense, relatively tall (15ish story) apartment buildings.You could do a lot of damage both in casualties and economy very quickly if you chose the right targets.

They got the wrong idea from the Korean War

[HangingChad]

You know you're seriously off the rails when you start provoking the planet's grand champions at killing people and breaking things and Russia and China are telling you to calm down.

Re:They got the wrong idea from the Korean War

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually no. Such people don't know they're seriously off the rails. Psychopaths and narcissists tend to stick to their program of superficial showmanship and imagery.

Re:They got the wrong idea from the Korean War

[Sponge Bath]

Even OJ Simpson was quoted as saying, "Cool it, Kim. You should ratchet things down by looking for the real killers who sunk that South Korean destroyer."

Re:They got the wrong idea from the Korean War

[Anonymous Coward]

An OJ Simpson reference. Nice. Maybe next time we can talk about swatches and Kid 'n Play.

Re:They got the wrong idea from the Korean War

[dotHectate]

You should check out my collection of Pogs.

Re:They got the wrong idea from the Korean War

[Anonymous Coward]

Wasn't that Dennis Rodman?

Re:They got the wrong idea from the Korean War

[JudgeFurious]

I think at this point China wouldn't have anywhere hear the concerns they had 60 years ago with a unified Korea provided that unification got an agreement from the US to withdraw from the mainland. The resulting "Korea" would be a competitor but not a military threat and it would be a competitor that was saddled with the cost of trying to absorb the North. I think that the US pulling back to Japan would be well worth the trouble of shutting down "Best Korea".

Re:They got the wrong idea from the Korean War

[l0ungeb0y]

Why would "Unified Korea" tell the US to leave? A unified Korea would clearly be run from Seoul who are very friendly with the US and the US has maintained a policy of having bases everywhere they can (over 200 worldwide) to maintain power across the globe. If anything, the US would open MORE military bases in the region to help with "peace keeping" and "humanitarian aid" in the impoverished North as the adjusted to a new way of life. No way would Seoul agree to a Russian or Chinese occupation.

Or were you thinking the unified Korea would be run by Pyongyang with the direct aid of the Russians and Chinese?

Re:They got the wrong idea from the Korean War

[AK Marc]

Un is wester educated. He probably just read "The Mouse that Roared" and is trying it out.

Re:They got the wrong idea from the Korean War

[DragonWriter]

I think at this point China wouldn't have anywhere hear the concerns they had 60 years ago with a unified Korea provided that unification got an agreement from the US to withdraw from the mainland.

I think any basically US-friendly government in a unified Korea would remember what happened the last time the US withdrew from the peninsula, and would be very reluctant to accept (much less demand) a US withdrawal. Certainly not to accept a US withdrawal to placate a neighboring Communist state with an overwhelming local conventional military superiority.

Re:They got the wrong idea from the Korean War

[JudgeFurious]

I wouldn't expect Korea to ask for the US to withdraw or want it. I think it would be more likely that in return for an end to the North Korean regime the US would come to an agreement with China that Korea would unify under the South's government, China would agree to not oppose the reunification or interfere in any way and the United States would agree to withdraw from the mainland within some mutually agreed time-frame. Essentially Korea wouldn't have a say in it. Now I can imagine a lot would be made of the US selling Korea down the river but seriously, China borders a lot of countries and it's not like they invade their neighbors all the time. Ok, you got Nepal and then there was that little dust-up with Vietnam a while back. I mean, it's not unheard of but I think they'd keep to their word as long as the US did. There's no good reason to maintain that mess with the two Korea's anymore not from our perspective or China's. With the kind of range that aircraft today possess it's not like falling back to Japan would leave Korea hanging. a US-China conflict is going to be all aircraft and missiles anyway so seriously doubt either side wants that.

Re:They got the wrong idea from the Korean War

[HistoryNerd]

Uh, South Korea doesn't even vaguely resemble its 1950 counterpart.

South Korea has a roughly 640,000 man strong army and 2.9 million in reserves. China in no way has localized military superiority given the actual size of its army at this point, and would have trouble bring up all its reserves very quickly especially given assured prompt US intervention including air power. (With the US bringing in substantial troops in the long run with possible significant international support given plainly unprovoked Chinese aggression in this scenario.)

In a scenario where China is invading a unified Korea, South Korea would also have allot of trained North Korean manpower willing to fight against a plainly non-Korean invader.

Re:They got the wrong idea from the Korean War

[Anonymous Coward]

Particularly with the potential ability to play off Japan and Korea against each other going forward. Another thing the Chinese would kind of have to insist on is nuclear disarmament of the Korean peninsula.

Re:Surely they wouldn't start it unless they can w

[Anonymous Coward]

democratic-republician overlords

Go ahead

[Hentes]

But China won't help you out this time.

Re:Go ahead

[Rich0]

In fact, China didn't let them import any oil in Feb. At this rate they might not have oil for a while.

That will start to hurt pretty soon. Nobody really wants a nuclear war in Asia.

Re:Go ahead

[Rockoon]

Nobody really wants a nuclear war in Asia.

Nobody?

Re:Go ahead

[turbidostato]

Never get into a nuclear war in Asia (or something like that).

Re:Go ahead

[ineffablepwnage]

And they most definitely don't want to get involved in a land war in Asia.

Re:Go ahead

[nospam007]

"That will start to hurt pretty soon. Nobody really wants a nuclear war in Asia."

Nuclear? Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia"

Re:Go ahead

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody really wants a nuclear war in Asia.

Nobody?

Well, it *is* one of the classic blunders...

Re:Go ahead

[Teancum]

The quote is "never get involved with a land war in Asia". Wise advise and something that has continually caused problems for America who seems to think they are the exception to the rule.

The problem right now is that America still is bogged down with a land war in Asia... and no reason to start another one.

Re:Go ahead

[Anonymous Coward]

Well... perhaps the Spanish Inquisition.

Actually scary

[bryan1945]

I really think there is a chance that NK leadership has gone so bonkers they would actually try something like bombing SK. I doubt it would be effective unless they bring a nuke to the fight, but we're still talking about one of China's maybe-buddies. The USSR was scary, but they weren't so honking insane as these guys.

Hopefully, NK will just keep doing the "chest thumping" thing until they get tired. Or it's all just a bluff in the first place. I, personally, have had enough wars/actions/what-have-you for now. Too much death. Everyone (including the US) just chill and have a cup o' tea and a biscuit.

Re:Actually scary

[Anonymous Coward]

Armed conflict makes too many maniacs richer for that to happen.

Re:Actually scary

[alen]

Chairman Mao is long dead

China is not going to war over some backward country with their largest trading partner

Re:Actually scary

[stevew]

Looking at history ( a novel concept I know) you find that indeed this has happened before.

You have a few things coming together that is causing this noise. 1) New leader in NK trying to show his ability to stand up to the West. 2) New leader in South Korea which is a cue for NK to become bellicose. 3) Annual SK/USA war games which NK always uses as a provocation. 4) Even tougher sanctions just put into place.

The US has no desire to go to war, nor does SK. The US is doing what has been doing for 50+ years as far as demonstrating capability but not employing it. The problem is that in the past US leaders have fed the ego of the maniacs in charge in NK by dealing with him. That has NEVER worked! Clinton thought he had peace with NK by giving them food and money. Whoops - Neville Chamberlain moment. It actually is very much like dealing with the local gang trying to run a racket on a business. It doesn't go away until the Gang is thrown in jail. The only ones who can do that are the Chinese or the people of NK.

Re:Actually scary

[Rockoon]

China is a buddy to North Korea in the same way that Iraq was a buddy to the United States.

Kim better not give them an excuse.

Re:Actually scary

[Rich0]

China isn't going to get into a war over NK, especially if NK is the aggressor. If China got that upset about having SK on their border the US would probably let them have half or all of NK as some kind of border zone.

China's support for NK is in name only. They aren't going to support regime change, but they aren't going to interfere if NK starts a shooting war. They already blocked oil shipments in Feb.

Re:Actually scary

[Anonymous Coward]

"The US has no desire to go to war"

Oh, you're so naive.

You even showed yourself evidence you are incorrect:

3) Annual SK/USA war games

(The usa aren't happy if anyone makes manaeuvers near THEIR territory, so the remainder isn't germane)

4) Even tougher sanctions just put into place.

(check the trety of versaille which caused WW2)

Re:Actually scary

[Anonymous Coward]

Perpetual war is more profitable in the longer run, for the psychopath few.

Captcha: economy

Re:Actually scary

[Anonymous Coward]

2) New leader in South Korea which is a cue for NK to become bellicose

This is one woman with whom they should not fuck. Seriously, her mother was killed by a North Korean assassin, and she was the de-facto first lady in her place. I'm think we might have a Korean Maggie Thatcher on our hands; she's not cowed by the North. From what I gather her attitude seems to be "we don't want this.. we won't start this.. but if you do, we're fucking bringing it hard."

Re:Actually scary

[Attila Dimedici]

If we had anyone else as President, my expectation is that if NK were to actually launch an attack (wherever), the President would retaliate and ask China to subdue NK (unless they wanted us to do it). With Obama, there are three possible explanations for his foreign policy actions. First possible explanation, he is incompetent. Second possible explanation, his foreign policy goals do not include protecting U.S. interests around the world. Third possible explanation, his understanding of U.S. interests around the world are at odds with every traditional understanding of those interests (several of those traditional understandings conflict with each other). As a result, I do not have any idea what he would do if NK launched an attack on SK or U.S..

Re:Actually scary

[Teancum]

Japan decided to go to war against its largest trading partner in the 1930's. Germany did the same against it largest trading partner during the same era. Sometimes people deciding to start a war don't really care about trade relationships or economic damage that might come from a full scale war.

Re:Actually scary

[Mindcontrolled]

Yup, That's why you keep poking with a sharpened stick. God help us if the cronies of your ruling elite shall not be able to profiteer from some war at the ass end of nowhere. Can't have that.

Re:Actually scary

[Rockoon]

They aren't going to support regime change

What makes you think that? North Korea has a new leader, and maybe things arent going well from their viewpoint.

Re:Actually scary

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell it to Bin Laden. Oh, wait, you can't.

Re:Actually scary

[Anonymous Coward]

Obama will attack SK and declare the columnist dream alive.

Re:Actually scary

[Anonymous Coward]

So, based on this thing that hasn't happened yet, you've narrowed down your conclusions about the President's foreign policy.

What do you think about the President's response to the alien invasion next year? Does it give you a better idea of what his intentions are? Or are you getting your views of the President's foreign policy from the events of "Red Dawn"? I'm curious.

Re:Actually scary

[Anonymous Coward]

M F'n autocorrect. Columnist->Communist

Re:Actually scary

[ElectricTurtle]

I'm no fan of Obama, but it's obtuse to interpret his foreign policy in that way in light of how he continued both the Afghanistan and Iraq Wars and intervened militarily in Libya and is training rebels for the Syrian Civil War. He's not a pacifist in any sense.

Not to mention that while the CinC is the top of the chain of command, he's still technically subordinate to the Congress, and if Congress says 'fight those people' it will be his duty to carry that out.

Re:Actually scary

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow ... Too bad the Secretary of State job has being taken. Looks like you learn a lot from Bush the Young. Consequences be damned.

Re:Actually scary

[Anonymous Coward]

Or are you getting your views of the President's foreign policy from the events of "Red Dawn"? I'm curious.

Hey, look, man, anti-government survivalist fetishists haven't had much in the range of major Hollywood releases to go on in recent years. At least let the guy enjoy his Red Dawn.

Re:Actually scary

[Nerdfest]

That happens when they think they can win. Are they really *that* bat-shit insane? (serious question ... they'v been conditioned for years, but their new leader knows the military capability of the US, etc.)

Re:Actually scary

[Anonymous Coward]

People keep referring to the USSR as "insane" or "crazy." You realize the Russians were just as scared of being wiped out by the Americans in the exact same way, right? That's why it was called the "Cold War," and not the "Cold Suicide," there were two fucking sides and both of them were more than happy to obliterate every living thing on earth to satisfy some sort of biblical desire for revenge.

Don't try to revise history by whitewashing the side you think was the "good" one.

Re:Actually scary

[Attila Dimedici]

I never intended to imply that he was a pacifist. However, his actions in Libya and Syria are exactly what I am talking about. They do not appear to reflect any compelling U.S. interest as defined by any traditional interpretation . As to being subordinate to Congress as CinC, he does not seem to agree with that interpretation since he launched an attack against Libya without Congressional approval (George W. Bush got Congressional approval before attacking either Afghanistan or Iraq) or even consultation and seemed to not even understand the questions about why that might be a problem.

Re:Actually scary

[Black Parrot]

As a result, I do not have any idea what he would do if NK launched an attack on SK or U.S.

We'll never find out what happened to the Pet Goat!

Re:Actually scary

[Black Parrot]

I never intended to imply that he was a pacifist. However, his actions in Libya and Syria are exactly what I am talking about. They do not appear to reflect any compelling U.S. interest as defined by any traditional interpretation .

What, precisely, is the traditional interpretation of US interests?

And how much of our post-WWII foreign policy has actually served those interests?

Re:Actually scary

[fustakrakich]

They do not appear to reflect any compelling U.S. interest as defined by any traditional interpretation...

What are you talking about? The profit motive has always been the driving force.

Re:Actually scary

[Attila Dimedici]

There are several traditional interpretations of U.S. interests, there are several flavours that are interventionist and there are several flavours that are isolationist.
Most of U.S. post-WWII foreign policy was premised on the idea that the U.S. was in conflict with the Soviet Union for control of world resources and influence. Another premise was that a direct war between the two would be disastrous for everybody involved (and everybody would be involved). Therefore most U.S. foreign policy was directed around stopping the expansion of Soviet power and influence without directly engaging the Soviet's militarily. The Soviets appear to have followed a similar approach. This meant that if, Soviet troops were directly involved in a situation, the U.S. would only operate through proxies (and perhaps a small number of trainers). The Soviets appear to have followed the reverse (they operated through proxies when U.S. troops were directly involved).
During the Korean War, an additional theory of foreign policy was developed. This theory was that the U.S. needed to engage the Soviets in proxy wars throughout the world that cost the Soviets more than they could afford for whatever gains they managed to get from the conflict. This theory was actually a very good one and worked very well. However, the people behind it made a grave miscalculation in applying it to Vietnam. In this theory, there was greater benefit in continuing the conflict in Vietnam than there was in winning it, so they made no attempt to win the war. This is where the theory ran into a problem. The population of the U.S. was not willing to support an open ended conflict with no hope of victory. The U.S. failure in Vietnam was a result of those responsible for U.S. strategy designing a strategy to continue the conflict for as long as possible in order to "bleed" the Soviets. Vietnam was a winnable war that U.S. strategists lost because they chose to fight it for the sake of fighting it rather than pursuing victory.

Re:Actually scary

[Attila Dimedici]

Sorry, what U.S. entity profited from U.S. intervention in Libya and Syria?

Re:Actually scary

[fustakrakich]

Weapons sales, 'free trade', and ensuring that previous contracts are either honored or broken, depending on which makes the most money. These are the things that benefit greatly.

What giant US/EU entity is not profiting from this?

But if you insist on naming names, there's Lockheed, Boeing, and a small bunch of French corporations.. well most of your bigger defense contractors. Then there's the banks (pick almost any one, foreign or domestic) that profit from financing all of it.

There's also a big interest in chasing China out of the region. It's a battle of the titans by proxy.

I hope you're not trying to pull the 'morality' scam on me. There is no morality behind any of it. It is pure piracy and pillaging.

Re:Actually scary

[Attila Dimedici]

Can you provide a reference to support your assertions?

Re:Actually scary

[fustakrakich]

It's classified. I can neither confirm or deny. But we do have a bit of history with Iran-Contra providing a single example. War is a business, nothing else, and it has proven to be very good business.

Re:Actually scary

[DragonWriter]

China is a buddy to North Korea in the same way that Iraq was a buddy to the United States.

I think to have that analogy correct, you need to reverse "United States and Iraq". China:NK::US:Iraq, not China:NK::Iraq:US

Re:Actually scary

[Anonymous Coward]

You volunteer to jump on a plane and lead the negotiations?

Re:Actually scary

[Billly Gates]

Chairman Mao is long dead

China is not going to war over some backward country with their largest trading partner

Why not?

We will surrender in a heartbeat if enough lobbiests scream! We are owned by lobbiests from Walmart, Apple, and others and do not care about our own country. China knows this and feels threatened by the United States. If they stopped exporting goods today the US would collapse tomorrow as we would have no products. China has the cards now which is part of their plan by making us so reliant on them.

Part of me wants to see this happen so shit would change. However a 1930s style depression would start as no employers would survive. Even things made in the US rely on rare earth metals and vendors who make stuff in China to save money.

I do not mean this is as a troll, but I am very serious. Our government is so damn corrupt with corporate lobbiests that any politician would drop their principles and even surrender if it meant more money and CEOs could keep their money and jobs.

Re:Actually scary

[Billly Gates]

I think without US involvement they could easily over-run South Korea.

They have one of the largest armies in the world and can shell Seoul at a rate of a thousand rockets an hour! After that their army can march through and within a week own the whole country.

The card for them is China. Of course we wont just sit and watch it happen and neither would the Japanese! China has 1 billion soldiers that can go into Korea in a moments notice. The US is so reliant on China as our society would collapse and Walmart would go out of business within 24 hours if they entered such a war. China would have to make a choice. To say ha ha uncle sam we got you by the balls surrender or face a depression and financial ruin! Or not get involved to lose money with the US and watch millions die with a long war as the US puts hundreds of thousands of boots on the ground for a horribly nasty and destructive war and have one less alley left in the region?

Russia would love to stomp on the USA too!

Re:Actually scary

[Billly Gates]

"China isn't going to get into a war over NK, especially if NK is the aggressor.

I think you should read your history books? Russia too would love to show the US a thing or two and keeps its friends friendly near its borders.

Re:Actually scary

[Teancum]

South Korea has a pretty respectable military of their own that would put up a pretty decent fight against North Korea. It is largely untested and really isn't the same organization that existed in the 1950's, but they have been spending some serious money of their own on a standing army that is also highly motivated to repel a North Korean advance into literally their own homes and push back against what they see as foreign aggressors. The "Republic of Korea" Army also spent some time fighting in Vietnam in the 1960's and 1970's, so they aren't completely without battle experience either.

Depending on your measure, South Korea may even be technically stronger or at least more capable of withstanding a prolonged war than North Korea for that matter. Yes, South Korea doesn't have as many rockets or small arms as North Korea, but they have the money roughly equivalent to a 1st world country vs. North Korea that is arguably more impoverished than Somalia. The North Korean economy is geared almost exclusively to support their military and nothing else, where their people are literally starving to death.

If China decides to step in to "defend their communist brethren", they will frankly trigger World War III in full. I seriously doubt that China would do something that foolish, unless South Korea + the USA largely capture the whole of North Korea.... and even then China may simply say "good riddance". A unified Korea would still be largely in the economic sphere of China and would even act as a foil against Japan for economic dominance of the western Pacific region of the world. Indeed it may even be in the interest of China right now to simply let South Korea take over North Korea as the American military would have little reason to even be in that part of the world in such a situation... except as a token force and some smallish military bases kind of like what exist in Okinawa.

Re:Actually scary

[MichaelSmith]

Yeah but international trade wasn't so important in those days. A country could operate with an isolated economy. Now trade everywhere is global. Nobody can afford to deal themselves out. Just look at North Korea.

Re:Actually scary

[Anonymous Coward]

Captcha: economy

Nobody gives a shit about your goddamned captcha.

Re:Actually scary

[mrchaotica]

We will surrender in a heartbeat if enough lobbiests scream! We are owned by lobbiests from Walmart, Apple, and others and do not care about our own country.

If North Korea bombed Samsung, Apple would win.

Re:Actually scary

[Anonymous Coward]

And if China joined NK then no Apple

Re:Actually scary

[Teancum]

I'm sure most columnists would be happy with Obama attacking South Korea. It would give them something to write about!

Re:Actually scary

[Anonymous Coward]

You're goddamned right!

Captcha: Bullshit!

Re:Actually scary

[Anonymous Coward]

US lost every wars since WW2.

Re:Actually scary

[Anonymous Coward]

It may pay to bear in mind that the japanese first produced methamphetamine (1890 iirc) and that Hitlers doctor used to inject Adolf with up to *a gram a day*...

Might have something to do with the Japanese and Germans being bat-shit insane back then and IMO as a former meth user, it probably has far more influence on their state of mind than societal conditioning.

WARNING: this is not me... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

A corrupt slashdot luser has infiltrated the moderation system to downmod all my posts while impersonating me.

Nearly 180++ times that I know of @ this point for all of March 2013 so far, & others here have told you to stop - take the hint, lunatic (leave slashdot)...

Sorry folks - but whoever the nutjob is that's attempting to impersonate me, & upset the rest of you as well, has SERIOUS mental issues, no questions asked! I must've gotten the better of him + seriously "gotten his goat" in doing so in a technical debate & his "geek angst" @ losing to me has him doing the:

---

A.) $10,000 challenges, ala (where the imposter actually TRACKED + LISTED the # of times he's done this no less, & where I get the 180 or so times I noted above) -> http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3585795&cid=43285307

&/or

B.) Reposting OLD + possibly altered models - (this I haven't checked on as to altering the veracity of the info. being changed) of posts of mine from the past here

---

(Albeit massively repeatedly thru all threads on /. this March 2013 nearly in its entirety thusfar).

* Personally, I'm surprised the moderation staff here hasn't just "blocked out" his network range yet honestly!

(They know it's NOT the same as my own as well, especially after THIS post of mine, which they CAN see the IP range I am coming out of to compare with the ac spamming troll doing the above...).

APK

P.S.=> Again/Stressing it: NO guys - it is NOT me doing it, as I wouldn't waste that much time on such trivial b.s. like a kid might...

Plus, I only post where hosts file usage is on topic or appropriate for a solution & certainly NOT IN EVERY POST ON SLASHDOT (like the nutcase trying to "impersonate me" is doing for nearly all of March now, & 180++ times that I know of @ least)... apk

P.S.=> here is CORRECT host file information just to piss off the insane lunatic troll:

--

21++ ADVANTAGES OF CUSTOM HOSTS FILES (how/what/when/where/why):

Over AdBlock & DNS Servers ALONE 4 Security, Speed, Reliability, & Anonymity (to an extent vs. DNSBL's + DNS request logs).

1.) HOSTS files are useable for all these purposes because they are present on all Operating Systems that have a BSD based IP stack (even ANDROID) and do adblocking for ANY webbrowser, email program, etc. (any webbound program). A truly "multi-platform" UNIVERSAL solution for added speed, security, reliability, & even anonymity to an extent (vs. DNS request logs + DNSBL's you feel are unjust hosts get you past/around).

2.) Adblock blocks ads? Well, not anymore & certainly not as well by default, apparently, lol - see below:

Adblock Plus To Offer 'Acceptable Ads' Option

http://news.slashdot.org/story/11/12/12/2213233/adblock-plus-to-offer-acceptable-ads-option )

AND, in only browsers & their subprogram families (ala email like Thunderbird for FireFox/Mozilla products (use same gecko & xulrunner engines)), but not all, or, all independent email clients, like Outlook, Outlook Express, OR Window "LIVE" mail (for example(s)) - there's many more like EUDORA & others I've used over time that AdBlock just DOES NOT COVER... period.

Disclaimer: Opera now also has an AdBlock addon (now that Opera has addons above widgets), but I am not certain the same people make it as they do for FF or Chrome etc..

3.) Adblock doesn't protect email programs external to FF (non-mozilla/gecko engine based) family based wares, So AdBlock doesn't protect email programs like Outlook, Outlook Express, Windows "LIVE" mail & others like them (EUDORA etc./et al), Hosts files do. THIS IS GOOD VS. SPAM MAIL or MAILS THA

Re:WARNING: this is not me... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey there, Moderator here, I haven't blocked his ip range because I can't see his ip range nor can I block ip ranges. All I can do is moderate, that's kind of the job of moderators, there is no moderator staff all slashdot members (with actual accounts) are potential moderators. The editors might could block his range but slashdot is an open forum ie no censor ship. Now go piss up a fucking rope you moron.

Re:WARNING: this is not me... apk

[Mindcontrolled]

Congratulation on coming over as more moronic as the real mods here. Which, by the way, are heartily invited to die in a fire due to utter incompetence.

Re:WARNING: this is not me... apk

[dotHectate]

I'm just waiting to hear that all these posts have secretly been part of a long-running ARG that is just going over everyone's head. I imagine some marketing monkey somewhere, desperately - furiously pasting these posts and hoping and praying that someone gets it soon.

At least it's more entertaining, anyway.

Re:WARNING: this is not me... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

Would be nice. Unfortunately some people really are as unhinged as this guy seems to be.

Re:WARNING: this is not me... apk

[tolkienfan]

You need help.

Re:WARNING: this is not me... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

Kim Jong Un,

You should focus on the war, and not post spam on /.

Re:WARNING: this is not me... apk

[metaforest]

Stop.

Stop feeding APK.

Ignore APK; it will go away.

replying to the blasts only serves to feed its dependence.

Apply discipline and resist the urge to respond...

end-of-line

Suddenly...

[fph il quozientatore]

Suddenly, Zergling rush!

Re:Suddenly...

[Anonymous Coward]

We got it covered, already shipped Widow Mines to South Korea on March 12th.

Re:Suddenly...

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

No problem. I'm pretty sure you aren't even allowed citizenship in South Korea if you can't execute the standard terran openers with alarming speed and precision. The entire DMZ will be a wall of supply depots and swarming with marines within ~5 minutes.

Re:Suddenly...

[Anonymous Coward]

I didn't know what "Zergling rush" is so I googled it. What the hell?

Re:Suddenly...

[Anonymous Coward]

Firebats. Duh.

Re:Suddenly...

[fph il quozientatore]

I didn't know what "Zergling rush" is so I googled it. What the hell?

This can't be still at +0 points... it made my day

Re:Suddenly...

[Anonymous Coward]

this. Google's "Zerg Rush" Easter egg.

Re:Suddenly...

[JThundley]

Just go to Iraq and hire recruit some people to jihadi-bust that depot wall. Allahu Ackbar! Splash Splash Splash!

They should call their bluff already

[Kwelstr]

North Korea is trying to blackmail the west once again. It worked in the 90's with Clinton and it worked in the 2000's with Bush, they make a big fuss and they get money to calm down. And the US media loves it too, they get to scare people and talk endlessly about it during a slow news cycle. Ratings up, win-win.

Re:They should call their bluff already

[Sponge Bath]

Yesterday on the PBS New Hour, a Clinton era official was upset US actions in Korea were labelled a failure, pointing to agreements that in the end were not honored. He could not get it through his head that the measure of success is whether or not those policies lead to lasting peace and cooperation, which they clearly did not. It was a pathetic exercise in "We got it right, we were awesome, the bad things happening now have no relation to my successes."

Re:They should call their bluff already

[jjohnson]

Actually, in the '00s, Bush tore up the Agreed Framework negotiated by Carter, under which NK received regular food and fuel aid in exchange for placing their nuclear weapons program under international inspection. "Axis of Evil", he said. "No more blackmail", he said. So NK ripped the UN inspector's seals of their uranium, built a nuke, and detonated it. Bush came running back, and now the crazy Norks are still demanding food and fuel aid while rattling their sabres, but their sabre is nuclear.

Heckuvajob, Bushie!

Re:They should call their bluff already

[gtall]

I saw that broadcast too. And this fellow was arguing against a native Korean about N. Korean behavior. It just showed how naive the Clinton administration was. And Obama was just as naive when he got into office. He's since changed but only because the Norks have been too obtuse to take him to the cleaners.

Re:They should call their bluff already

[gtall]

He ripped it up because at the end of the Clinton administration, it had become so clear the Norks were reneging on their nuclear deal that Clinton State Dept told the incoming Bush Administration that the deal was effectively kaput.

Re:They should call their bluff already

[khallow]

Interesting how some people still have to blame things on Bush. I guess the brain lesions don't fix themselves in five years, huh?

Re:They should call their bluff already

[Hal_Porter]

And the US media loves it too, they get to scare people and talk endlessly about it during a slow news cycle. Ratings up, win-win.

http://www.dinocrat.com/archives/2005/02/15/what-else-did-eason-jordan-give-north-korea/

Ever wonder why CNN seems to be the only Western news organization regularly allowed into North Korea? The next room perhaps offered a clue. In the 'Gifts from America' room a whole section of one wall is taken up by gifts from CNN. A few engraved plaques, a coffee cup (yeah, a freaking coffee cup!), a logo ashtray, etc. Probably at most a couple hundred bucks worth of crap that nonetheless get pride of place in the museum - for they reveal obvious signs of respect from a world famous news organization. The people at CNN are certainly using their heads and showing they know how to play the game. Though one wonders how that fits in with journalistic integrity . . .

...

Wednesday night at 6:30pm ET CNN ran a special, "Inside North Korea," based on the reporting of CNN International President Eason Jordan who managed to get into North Korea. Anchor Jonathan Mann asked who or what are being blamed for the lack of food. Jo rdan replied:

"It depends on whom you talk to. The international relief agencies, some of the people who work there say that the plight of the people here is not just the fault of Mother Nature, that it's also the government's economic policies and agriculture policies .

Government officials dispute that and they say this is solely a problem generated by Mother Nature and only Mother Nature can solve this problem. So there's a real dispute about the blame in this case, but General Kim Jong Il has been personally involved in this. He has ordered all of the entire army, hundreds of thousands of troops, into the countryside to help the farmers try to harvest what crops will survive."

Another example of the problem with Western reporters applying Western journalistic norms to reporting from an oppressive nation. Jordan gave equal weight to views of both the communist regime and the relief workers, as if each are equally credible. And the fact that the General "is personally involved in this" is more ironic than reassuring. In a closed off, backward nation run by a military dictatorship the army is hardly the solution to anything.

Re:They should call their bluff already

[Black Parrot]

As everyone knows, It's All The Other Party's President's Fault.

Re:They should call their bluff already

[am 2k]

Healing the scars that the Bush administration left will take a lot longer than a few years. Meanwhile, enjoy your invasive security screening on airports and attempts like the constitution-free zone on "borders" that include half of the population.

(Note that I'm not saying that only Bush did all of that, but the people in charge apparently noticed with how much they can get away with, with only insignificant uprisings like OWS that can easily be removed by the military.)

Re:They should call their bluff already

[Anonymous Coward]

He was so matted and nasty, it took us eight years to shave him. He's gone, calm down.

Re:They should call their bluff already

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

One subset focuses on redirecting the problem to blame the US. The other picks it up at the border and continues directing it at the Republicans.

Re:They should call their bluff already

[AK Marc]

They worked until there was a change of government. But they are a failure because they increased stability, but didn't dethrone the despot? Perhaps the issue with the native Korean was that the native was biased against any support for the north, which he's technically at war with. That means that Clinton committed treason by materially aiding someone Korea was at war with. That'll earn you some animosity, even if your treason increased stability.

Re:They should call their bluff already

[Anonymous Coward]

That's not exactly what happened. You're lying just score some political points.

What happened was this: the US collected good intelligence that the North Koreans were purchasing the equipment for, and assembling, centrifuges for further uranium enrichment. Apparently they figured that if they made more uranium, they could extract more cash and food-aid for locking up the new stuff, too.

A diplomatic mission was sent to North Korea, and the North Koreans plain admitted they were going to enrich more nuclear-weapon grade uranium.

Now, if Bush screwed up, it was this--he decided to escalate rather than play along, which resulted in him tearing up the Agreed Framework. This happened _before_ the Axis of Evil comment. In fact, this is why North Korea was added to the "axis".

The real story is summarized nicely, here: http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0405.kaplan.html

So, Bush blundered foreign policy, but he didn't shred up any agreement. The North Koreans had been skirting it for years. Bush, simply just didn't appreciate the agreement for what it was--a polite fiction that allowed two enemies to bargain without losing face.

Re:They should call their bluff already

[Anonymous Coward]

The actions of NK completely vindicate GWB. That nation is insane. You can't rationalize with insanity!

Re:They should call their bluff already

[oursland]

That doesn't appear to be what gtall implied. Furthermore, blame lies with the North Koreans for pursuing a nuclear weapon in violation to their agreements.

Re:They should call their bluff already

[Anonymous Coward]

Obama has done exactly zero during this whole time and has let this thing fester until now. When the NK finally does do something, he'll be full of excuses about how none of this could be stopped. He should man up.

Re:They should call their bluff already

[Anonymous Coward]

I think this is the clip you're talking about:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/world/jan-june13/northkorea_03-29.html

Seems Joel Wit (Clinton-era official) was getting and saying in 1994 they "stopped North Korea from building as many as 100 nuclear weapons by the year 2000" while Sung-Yoon Lee was saying this was the usual NK posturing and in exchange for showing inspectors "an empty cave" and blowing up an obsolete cooling tower, the US repeatedly gives in and appeases them.

Wit calls it diplomacy while Lee calls it appeasement and a failure

It seems to me that this is just more of NK making a lot of noise like a child who wants dessert without having to eat his vegetables and the world is the irresponsible parent who gives in too easily and too often.

And those pictures of Kim with his generals looking over a paper map on a big table is just comical. That's not how you plan warfare in the 21st century. You'd think they would at least use Google Maps.

Re:They should call their bluff already

[Anonymous Coward]

I've got an uncle that's several hundred years old still blaming things on Washington.

This little guy

[blackholepcs]

Can someone explain to me what it is that gives such a small country that has comparably weak military (they are ranked number 28 in the world according to http://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-listing.asp) and pretty much zero chance of surviving a week in a real war the balls to be so dickish and war-hungry?

Are they really THAT brainwashed and misinformed (or uninformed) as to believe that they can just threaten nuclear war every time they don't get their way? It's like a little kid threatening to run away every time he has to eat his broccoli.

The only scary thing here is that sometimes, very rarely, the little kid DOES run away for an hour or so. Well, I hope for the sake of any innocent people in North Korea that this little boy doesn't run away, and instead learns to shut the fuck up and eat his broccoli.

Re:This little guy

[Entropius]

Their people are that brainwashed, and the government probably knows better but playing along with the illusion is a route to power there so folks do it. And, while NK would be absolutely flattened in a war, Seoul is within artillery range of the border, and would sustain a huge amount of damage in the opening minutes of the war.

Re:This little guy

[drinkypoo]

Can someone explain to me what it is that gives such a small country that has comparably weak military (they are ranked number 28 in the world according to http://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-listing.asp) and pretty much zero chance of surviving a week in a real war the balls to be so dickish and war-hungry?

It keeps working.

Re:This little guy

[Attila Dimedici]

Quite simply, it is twofold. First China does not want Korea unified under an nominal U.S. ally (South Korea). Second, China finds NK a useful catspaw to find out how far they can provoke the U.S. before the results become unpalatable. There is a third element that purely involves NK, but that only works because of the first two. Every so often the situation in NK becomes so bad that they need an infusion of outside aid to keep things from completely collapsing. They have learned that by rattling their cage and threatening violence, they can gain such aid. If the outside world does not respond with sufficient aid soon enough, NK starts various low level acts of violence against those in the vicinity, gradually escalating until the aid is forthcoming (which is why ignoring them is not an option).
If NK ever stops being useful to China, they will cease to exist.

Re:This little guy

[ColdWetDog]

"What an eccentric performance."

Re:This little guy

[Anonymous Coward]

They're close enough to shell Seoul and kill a lot of people before a reaction can hit.

Re:This little guy

[stevew]

Your first statement is historically correct, i.e. China doesn't want the entire Korean peninsula under US influence.

I gotta wonder if this calculus isn't going to change soon. China is becoming a dominant economic power all by itself. It has likely past South Korea in that vain on the world market. The US influence is waning at the same rate. Point being - what do they have to worry about having a unified Korea anymore? The US influence there is becoming irrelevant!

Re:This little guy

[Anonymous Coward]

And also due to term limits, appeasement by the US and others is the easiest solution.

Re:This little guy

[ericloewe]

Too bad China is still kinda playing along, thousands of people suffering under that regime is not a price I like to pay for hearing such comical threats...

Re:This little guy

[Anonymous Coward]

I live in a post comunist country (Romania).

Back in the communist era, romanians actually thought they had one of the best armies in the world, just because they had 100 big cheap dumb russian tanks.

Now think about that, and imagine that every single home in North Korea has a speaker, which is directly link to the official government radio, and you can never turn it off.
Imagine what kind of propaganda those people are taking...

Re:This little guy

[Attila Dimedici]

Well, that is definitely true. I have two caveats on what you write about diminishing U.S. influence in South Korea and reduced Chinese concern. The first is that I am not sure the Chinese recognize that. Chinese leadership has repeatedly shown certain blindspots regarding how Western politics work (in particular U.S. politics) that may lead them to not recognize that U.S. influence in SK has fallen ( I am not saying that they do not, merely that it would not surprise me if they failed to do so). The second is that the Chinese might not want the Korean peninsula reunified as a goal in itself. That is, they may consider the increased power that a Korea unified under SK's current government would wield a threat to their interests in and of itself.
And of course there is still my second point, China finds NK a useful catspaw to see how far they can provoke the U.S. before the responses become not worth the reward.

Re:This little guy

[wisnoskij]

If Vietnam could kick the USes ass then NK could. And who knowns what a war would do to international relations.

And America is not structured in such a way to actually be able to sustain any type actual war for more than a few months. The US would simply run out of the money to produce $100,000 missiles and $10,000,000 helicopters before NK ran out of the ability to produce people, $20 AK-47s, and $5 explosives.

Re:This little guy

[AdamHaun]

Can someone explain to me what it is that gives such a small country that has comparably weak military ... and pretty much zero chance of surviving a week in a real war the balls to be so dickish and war-hungry?

They have artillery lined up by the border. Within the first few hours of a war, they can devastate Seoul and probably other South Korean cities, killing millions. I think they also have rocket artillery that could hit Tokyo. North Korea would lose the war pretty quickly, but the civilian cost would be *very* high.

Re:This little guy

[Anonymous Coward]

In other words, you think most countries would be able to defeat the US military.
Recently, that has not held up in practice. But really, do you believe that the North Korean citizens will be complaining if they suddenly don't have to eat dirt anymore to survive?

Re:This little guy

[rubycodez]

wrong

N. Vietnam did no such thing, the military was restrained by politicians. we could have wiped the vietnamese race off the face of the earth, and with only conventional weapons.

Re:This little guy

[wisnoskij]

They won, whining about who it would of been different, if it went differentially does not change this fact.
Particularly since there is no reason to believe that these elements that you blame on the loss would be any different in this war, if it happens.

Re:This little guy

[rubycodez]

you completely misunderstand the purpose and reason for the vietnam war. the strategic targets were off-limits because of them.

with n. korea the U.S. will have a different purpose, there are strategic goals that even the power and money grubbing scum with our politicians in their pockets must accomplish as they are dire threat to their wealth and power

Re:This little guy

[cdrudge]

Thousands? Try millions.

Re:This little guy

[gtall]

China is worried about U.S. loss of influence because now S. Koreans and Japanese are opening wondering if they shouldn't have a nuclear umbrella all for their very own and not have to rely on the U.S. The head of the Joint Chiefs said something similar when explaining the B2 flights from the U.S. to the S. Korean target practice island and back, i.e., that we needed to show S.K. and Japan they could still count on the U.S.

Re:This little guy

[ubersoldat2k7]

Don't compare Vietnam with NK. On Vietnam they were fighting since the country existed for a common goal: kick out any foreign colonial power (french, english, americans, etc.)

Re:This little guy

[wisnoskij]

But in terms of military size they are very much the same.

Re:This little guy

[Black Parrot]

Can someone explain to me what it is that gives such a small country that has comparably weak military (they are ranked number 28 in the world according to http://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-listing.asp [globalfirepower.com]) and pretty much zero chance of surviving a week in a real war the balls to be so dickish and war-hungry?

Look up Seoul's population, then find it on a map.

Re:This little guy

[Subm]

This series of posts describes North Korean strategy at a high level -- http://joshuaspodek.com/north-korea-strategy-preview

Re:This little guy

[Black Parrot]

wrong

N. Vietnam did no such thing, the military was restrained by politicians. we could have wiped the vietnamese race off the face of the earth, and with only conventional weapons.

And it's going to be different with N. Korea?

But I do disagree with the GP on the details: the USA won't run out of guns and bombs, it will run out of public approval for an endless stream of soldiers coming home in body bags. That's the post-Vietnam reality that every US President has to deal with.

Re:This little guy

[Tough Love]

China does not want Korea unified under an nominal U.S. ally

China's fear of living with a nuclear armed despot on its doorstep dwarves its fear of a unified Korea.

Re:This little guy

[Anonymous Coward]

A few months? I wouldn't be surprised if it were mostly over in a few days.

Re:This little guy

[Anonymous Coward]

And they'll greet us as liberators, throwing flowers at our feet...

Oh, wait...

Re:This little guy

[Anonymous Coward]

And it's going to be different with N. Korea?

If North Korea sets off a nuke, you better believe it will be different.

Re:This little guy

[Attila Dimedici]

What evidence do you have for that assertion? If China wanted NK nuetralized, they could very easily do so with only slight cooperation (which would have been forthcoming under previous Presidents -- I do not know one way or the other with the current one) from the U.S. The only real cooperation with the U.S. would involve assurances and insurances that China would not continue its operations into SK.

Re:This little guy

[Anonymous Coward]

The starting line of the war is within easy artillery range of Seoul, the capital of south korea, home to over 10 million people. Crappy military or not, they've got plenty to do a heck of a lot of damage to a lot of innocent people (even outdated artillery can knock down an office building pretty darn fast. And if it's loaded with chemical weapons, which we're pretty sure the north koreans have a large stockpile of, expect a lot of civilians dying horribly... Do they have a missile that can loft a small nuke twenty miles? Building one that can carry a nuke to the US is hard, building one that can carry it to Seoul to fry the government of South Korea and a lot of people is far easier...)

So, think of this as a criminal holding a pistol to the throat of a hostage, threatening a police swat team. Can he beat the swat team? Hell no, he'll last a few seconds, his pistol isn't worth crap against a dozen guys in body armor with assault rifles. But... he'll last long enough to kill someone, maybe he'll get a lucky shot off that kills a second person, and that means the police _will_ take him seriously, and will give in to a lot of his demands, in hopes of keeping the hostage safe and resolving things without a firefight.

Sadly, the hostage isn't capable of walking away in this case

Re:This little guy

[rastoboy29]

China protects them, because they don't want U.S. military bases on their border.  Also, the NK's have a huge amount of artillery read to flatten Seoul at a moment's notice.

Re:This little guy

[Tim12s]

China wants Taiwan. In the event that that "boils" over, they would want an ally in the region to nullify the US bases. China will never let NK "go" for SK unless they were making a move for Taiwan. And that doesn't seem like its going to happen anytime in the next 3 years.

Re:This little guy

[shadow_slicer]

Actually, I expect that China does want to see a unified Korea. They'd absolutely love to "unify" Korea as part of China.

Once part of China, always chinese.

Re:This little guy

[Anonymous Coward]

> Halitosis - (n.) Halle Berry's Camel Toe.

this .sig is retarted

Re:This little guy

[DragonWriter]

Can someone explain to me what it is that gives such a small country that has comparably weak military (they are ranked number 28 in the world according to http://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-listing.asp [globalfirepower.com]) and pretty much zero chance of surviving a week in a real war the balls to be so dickish and war-hungry?

Basically, having a gun (well, one of the world's largest concentrations of conventional artillery, more precisely) to South Korea's head (capital). Plus the nukes don't hurt, but its mostly the gun-to-the-head.

Re:This little guy

[DragonWriter]

China's fear of living with a nuclear armed despot on its doorstep dwarves its fear of a unified Korea.

What evidence do you have for that assertion?

China actually flipping to support sanctions against NK, which is what appears to have provoked the latest escalation in North Korea's decades-long series of this kind of outbursts?

Re:This little guy

[DragonWriter]

If Vietnam could kick the USes ass then NK could.

Did North Korea just beat the French after a long resistance against the Japanese? Does North Korea have the backing of anyone like the old USSR?

And America is not structured in such a way to actually be able to sustain any type actual war for more than a few months.

North Korea's in a much worse position than the US when it comes to this.

The US would simply run out of the money to produce $100,000 missiles and $10,000,000 helicopters before NK ran out of the ability to produce people, $20 AK-47s, and $5 explosives.

Few wars last long enough that producing people is a factor. Producing food, on the other hand, is one, and its not exactly North Korea's strong point.

Another thing to consider, is that unlike anyone the US has ever fought a war against, North Korea has a high probability of having a small number of nuclear weapons and, as long as neither China nor Russia is not supporting their aggression, no ally with a large number of nuclear weapons (this is pretty much the opposite of the situation in Vietnam) this dramatically increases the likelihood of the US feeling the need to go acheive a swift victory (including going nuclear if necessary), while removing the primary constraint on the use of nuclear weapons (the probability of massive escalation from the other side.)

Re:This little guy

[wisnoskij]

"Does North Korea have the backing of anyone like the old USSR?", Yes China.

Re:This little guy

[rossjudson]

It seems to me that stability is achieved by having China take over North Korea. And I suspect that if the Chinese did that, they would be very "thorough". Batshit crazy would be replaced by predictable contrariness. The Chinese won't do anything that's bad for business.

Re:This little guy

[locopuyo]

Yes, North Korea is a real life 1984.

Re:This little guy

[blackholepcs]

Very well put. I appreciate this explanation. I do not pretend to be up on my geography OR geo-politics, so your response was very helpful for my understanding of the situation. Thank you.

Re:This little guy

[Anonymous Coward]

Great post. I believe the end-game is that China gets NK no matter what.

War: Whether USA decimates NK with nukes or merely defeats it with conventional warfare, then China waits until the smoke clears, most NKs are dead from starvation and then walks in. No one could stop them.

Peace: If NK collapses, China does the same or, if necessary, walks in and administers the death of NKs population.

No matter what, the USA can't look good and they can't "win".

Re:This little guy

[rubycodez]

yeah that totally prevented unecessarily protracted wars in Iraq and Afghanistan to line the pockets of the military industrial complex

Re:This little guy

[MichaelSmith]

But China and US are in a position where they could do a binding deal. China gives north korea to south korea, the US agrees to limit their presence in a combined korea. In practice it is only there because of north korea anyway.

Re:This little guy

[Anonymous Coward]

I wouldn't say it's irrelevant. It is counterproductive, though.

China is using it's military might to claim oil and gas reserves in the South China sea. So, China absolutely does have an interest in keeping American power at bay. Which is why it makes more sense to allow Korea to unite. Then the U.S. has no reason to keep such a huge armed force near China's doorstep.

The U.S. gave up all its other major bases in East Asia except for Japan. In particular, it gave up its position in the Philippines, which has become once again quite strategic. But the U.S. can't exactly move back in, because that would be an escalation.

*If* China could extract a guarantee that America would leave the Korean Peninsula, and presuming enough of the old-guard Chinese are gone--who would feel honor bound to N. Korea--then I'm sure the Chinese would stop supporting N. Korea. Though, there's the problem of refugees. Actually ending the N. Korean regime is a whole 'nother can of worms.

Re:This little guy

[mrchaotica]

War: Whether USA decimates NK with nukes or merely defeats it with conventional warfare, then China waits until the smoke clears, most NKs are dead from starvation and then walks in. No one could stop them.

If USA defeated NK, then when China tried to walk in it would find a whole bunch of US troops occupying it.

Re:This little guy

[Anonymous Coward]

North Korea has a lot of rare earth resources. It is the China's benefit to keep North Korea isolated on the global scale so they can trade exclusively.

Re:This little guy

[Teancum]

North Vietnam defeated a South Vietnam that had the American military removed from it along with any foreign aid to help South Vietnam able to pay for its army... and a North Vietnam reinforced by Russian equipment and foreign aid.

It took North Vietnamese tanks and massive infantry formations to conquer Saigon.... it wasn't just a "popular uprising" of the South Vietnamese people like is sometimes portrayed.

Had the U.S. Congress really wanted to win in Vietnam, they could have appropriated the money, sent the necessary soldiers, and given a blank check to the U.S. President at the time (Richard Nixon... somebody Congress really wanted to get rid of at the time) with a formal declaration of war. That never happened, thus your logic really fails here.

America abandoned South Vietnam and let that country go away in defeat, but America was not really "defeated" in Vietnam. It was just another front in the Cold War from an American perspective.

Re:This little guy

[Anonymous Coward]

Seoul is within artillery range of the border, and would sustain a huge amount of damage in the opening minutes of the war.

So clear the people out of Seoul and steamroll the North. Blast all the artillery, and keep on going until the job is done. NK has declared a state of war, so they started it.

Re:This little guy

[rochrist]

Pretty sure that if they used one of their two nuclear weapons (or chemical weapons for that matter) they'd cease to exist roughly 20 minutes later.

Re:This little guy

[cwsumner]

North Vietnam defeated a South Vietnam that had the American military removed from it along with any foreign aid to help South Vietnam able to pay for its army... and a North Vietnam reinforced by Russian equipment and foreign aid. ...

That's true, the South Veitnamese army held on for about six months, as I remember. Then the US Congress voted to stop aid and shipments of ammunition. They fought on until the ammunition ran out, and I don't think anyone knows what happened to the soldiers after that.

A few weeks later the North showed up in Siagon, and our diplomats ran for their lives...

Re:This little guy

[rastoboy29]

yes, but that would be a hell  of a trust building exercise for the Chinese.  And we may not be willing to go along, any more than we did when the Wall came down in Europe.

We shall see.  I wish it would happen...I pity the millions of North Koreans trapped in that vile regime for so long.

this is a joke

[etash]

wars are not declared with photos of the president and a map behind him showing "squadrons of airplanes" attacking the US .. from N.Korea ( http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia-pacific/2013/03/2013328222926559483.html )

this is just a trick to pressure the west into giving hem MOARRR aid. none is stupid enough to destroy his own chain of power. There's only one case he must be "that stupid" : he's already agreed with the west ( recruited during the switzerland studies years ) to provoke an event from which the regime will collapse.

P.S. WILL THE FUCK SOMEONE DO ANYTHING WITH THIS MORONIC 10 PAGES LONG AUTOMATED POSTS BY BOTS? CAN'T JUST A MOD DELETE THEM ?

Re:this is a joke

[roc97007]

> wars are not declared with photos of the president and a map behind him showing "squadrons of airplanes" attacking the US ..

Well, right, wars are declared when the leader of a country says "we are in a state of war". (In Korean, but still.)

I would have said, wars are not *fought* by maps on the news showing squadrons of airplanes attacking the US. Except perhaps diplomatically.

Re:this is a joke

[ElectricTurtle]

You must be new here. Slashdot doesn't have 'mods' and doesn't delete posts. Bad posts are scored down by others, that is all. The system ultimately works better and is less frequently abused than I think any other on the internet.

Kaesong Industrial complex still open...

[spanky_poppagasket]

The Kaesong Industrial complex, a North/South industrial park, is apparently still open for business which means economic relations are undisturbed. Most news sources are highlighting this as a sign that the North isn't serious about the threats. If I were NK, though, I'd keep that puppy open as long as possible considering the new sanctions.

Re:Kaesong Industrial complex still open...

[ElectricTurtle]

If I were working there, I'd spend every available hour looking for another job. Those people have the sword of Damocles over their heads.

Re:Kaesong Industrial complex still open...

[gtall]

The Norks just announced they were thinking of closing it should S. Korea insult them again.

Maybe the S. Koreans should just declare the Norks a lunatic asylum and offer psychiatric help.

Re:Kaesong Industrial complex still open...

[Anonymous Coward]

The 800 South Koreans, it's probably not ideal but I would assume they're nearly all well paid management staff.

The 42,000 North Koreans that work there, are probably some of the most "fortunate" and loyal DPRK citizens outside high ranking military officials.

Re:Kaesong Industrial complex still open...

[Anachragnome]

The sanctions are exactly what are imperiling that complex--nobody can import computers there because of the sanctions. Pretty hard to keep up without computers.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/31/world/asia/north-korean-sites-are-down-in-possible-cyberattacks.html?hp&_r=0

My guess is that they are trying to pressure a change in specific language (the ban on exporting computers to NK), so that they can actually compete. It seems slave wages are not enough.

Coo, the P is silent

[rmdingler]

There has to be a growing group of North Koreans who are rolling there eyes every time this Tard opens his mouth nowadays... Tell me they're not going to put up with Lil Kim much longer. This is right out of Machiavelli's playbook. Lil Prince needs to keep his citizens occupied with a foreign 'conflict' to keep their collective attention away from strife at home.

Re:Coo, the P is silent

[speedlaw]

Sure, but anyone who has any stake in the existing system, like for housing, or food privileges, will be out there in a perfectly pressed Comrade Outfit. They will protest on cue. They will profess love of the Diminutive Leader. They will shout "death to america". Their knowledge of the outside world is strictly controlled. I don't see revolution anytime soon. I think China uses them as a buffer zone, although China has an illegal NK emigrant problem. If you are escaping to China, it's not good

Lets just nuke NK out of existance

[detain]

Nobody will really miss them.

Re:Lets just nuke NK out of existance

[Anonymous Coward]

What about the innocent civilians in NK?

Re:Lets just nuke NK out of existance

[confused one]

China might get a bit miffed when the radioactive fallout drifts into their bread-basket region.

Re:Lets just nuke NK out of existance

[Anonymous Coward]

They'll be dead of course, and nobody will really miss them.

Re:Lets just nuke NK out of existance

[detain]

With all their current pollution, i doubt china would even notice.

Re:Lets just nuke NK out of existance

[Anonymous Coward]

What country creates people like you, who still think a nuclear war is a good idea? They have a serious problem with their education system.

Re:Lets just nuke NK out of existance

[Anonymous Coward]

To you and the neanderthals who voted this up, GFY.

Re:Lets just nuke NK out of existance

[Anonymous Coward]

no one is truly innocent.

Re:Lets just nuke NK out of existance

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, lets kill all those men, women, children and babies. Who needs brain washing when people with access to education and a free press make these kind of statements...

Re:Lets just nuke NK out of existance

[CdBee]

In 1918 the Treaty of Versailles stated - not for the first time - that there is no such thing as an innocent civilian of a warlike state - they can be divided into those who acted to prevent, and those who complied. We are probably all citizens (or subjects in the case of monarchies) of post-revolutionary states. We should understand that a limited proportion of the blame for the actions of tyrants must fall upon those who did not act to stop them

Re:Lets just nuke NK out of existance

[ericloewe]

Because the treaty of Versailles was a great achievement that brought an end to war in Europe forever and was universally seen as fair and just. /s

Re:Lets just nuke NK out of existance

[ubersoldat2k7]

Wow, better think twice about who we're voting for then.

Re:Lets just nuke NK out of existance

[Black Parrot]

Because the treaty of Versailles was a great achievement that brought an end to war in Europe forever and was universally seen as fair and just. /s

One Allied general famously heard the terms and said, "That's not a peace treaty, that's a formula for a 20-year ceasefire."

Re:Lets just nuke NK out of existance

[Black Parrot]

What country creates people like you, who still think a nuclear war is a good idea? They have a serious problem with their education system.

USA and NK?

Re:Lets just nuke NK out of existance

[Anonymous Coward]

It's more likely to drift over Alaska than China if the jet stream direction is any indicator.

nothing major

[crossmr]

Since i live in South Korea, I base my concern level on the people around me, rather than western media.

Today all the girls were out in their 6 inch skirts, 10 inch heels, and all the guys were out following them around.

Seems to be just another day.

Re:nothing major

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll be in my bunk.

Re:nothing major

[sydneyfong]

Pics, or it didn't happen.

Re:nothing major

[adnonsense]

In Japan here... no signs of undue angst either.

Re:nothing major

[russotto]

Since i live in South Korea, I base my concern level on the people around me, rather than western media.

Today all the girls were out in their 6 inch skirts, 10 inch heels, and all the guys were out following them around.

This is the same South Korea where the DMZ is a tourist attraction. There seems to be a rather blasé attitude, but that doesn't mean nothing's going to happen. After all, there was all sorts of partying going in in Honolulu on December 6, 1942.

Re:nothing major

[Anonymous Coward]

Pics or it isn't true.

Re:nothing major

[russotto]

Damnit. Not only did slashdot eat my e ague, it changed my 1941 to 1942. (that's my story and I'm sticking to it)

Re:nothing major

[Anonymous Coward]

Since i live in South Korea, I base my concern level on the people around me, rather than western media.

Today all the girls were out in their 6 inch skirts, 10 inch heels, and all the guys were out following them around.

Seems to be just another day.

Hm. That does sound bad. I would've expected exaggerated derisive jerk-off motions or mocking hand-puppet gestures whenever any direct video or quotes from North Korea were heard nearby.

Re:nothing major

[crossmr]

That's the way they have to live. If they lived in constant fear, they'd never live. Serious things do actually bother them, like the shelling of the island or the sinking of the boat, but grand standing doesn't.

Re:nothing major

[ihavnoid]

Even the Korean media doesn't seem to care so much. Tooday's headline :

- Tomorrow, the president will make an announcement on its new real estate policy.
- Washington Post thinks NK is ridiculous
- The Korean baseball leage starts

Re:nothing major

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me google that for you. I'll be back in, oh... 15 minutes or so.

Re:nothing major

[Anonymous Coward]

No doubt, but I'm sure the next day was pretty somber as everyone bowed their heads in memory to the lives that had been lost ONE YEAR EARLIER (you know, in 1941, when the attack on Pearl Harbor actually happened).

Re:nothing major

[Anonymous Coward]

Since i live in South Korea, I base my concern level on the people around me, rather than western media.

Today all the girls were out in their 6 inch skirts, 10 inch heels, and all the guys were out following them around.

This is the same South Korea where the DMZ is a tourist attraction. There seems to be a rather blasé attitude, but that doesn't mean nothing's going to happen. After all, there was all sorts of partying going in in Honolulu on December 6, 1942.

What, were they celebrating the one year anniversary of the bombing of Pearl Harbor?

Re:nothing major

[MiG82au]

Just like when I was there in 2010 while N Korea was shelling that S Korean island; nobody seemed to care.

Re:nothing major

[crossmr]

People were upset about that, same as the sinking of the boat. They're upset when NK actually does something, not when just scream and yell.

good for the economy

[Anonymous Coward]

its about time we had a real good assthumping war
witha buncha people getting killed---its sick i know but it would maybe bring us out of this recession
are whole economy revolves around the military---use it or lose it
and besides THEY started it

North Korea thinks the world is flat

[Anonymous Coward]

Good luck with that. Their "US mainland strike plan" map shows straight lines rather than great circle routes. Either they are clueless, it's purely for show, or their missiles are going to fall a few thousand km short. Or some combination.

Re:North Korea thinks the world is flat

[tigersha]

Those are Chairman Kim Blessed missiles. He does not obey the laws of physics and neither do they.

Re:North Korea thinks the world is flat

[ColdWetDog]

Wait a minute. Only Chuck Norris gets to disobey the laws of physics.

Re:North Korea thinks the world is flat

[Attila Dimedici]

I watched the video at that link and saw one interesting thing. When one watched similar videos from Soviet era Russia, or the Mao era China, when the people in the videos did something like the "fist pump" salute that is in these videos, it has a lot of emotional energy behind it (even if sometime that emotional energy seemed contrived). As I watched this video, the "fist pump" salute the soldiers gave reminded me of management meetings I have been at where the company tried to get all of the managers excited about some new program by getting them to do something similar. You had to go through the motions of "cheering" and taking part in this new, "exciting" thing the company was doing, but most of the people present had a "wait and see" attitude before they got excited about it. The military people on the parade seemed to have the attitude of "Yeah, that's great. What's in this for me?"

Re:North Korea thinks the world is flat

[dotHectate]

+1 for you sir, for I laughed out loud.

Re:North Korea thinks the world is flat

[rubycodez]

not technically true, Chuck ass-whoops the laws of physics until they obey him

Re:North Korea thinks the world is flat

[Anonymous Coward]

Eventually, even Chuck is ass-whooped by the laws of physics.

 

No more rhetorics

[rasmusbr]

It seems to me that the North Korean leadership has just spent all of its rhetorical ammo. If the next thing out of Kim's mouth isn't a launch code and an authorization to launch a nuclear tipped missile he's just ruined his credibility. And North Korea does not even have a nuclear tipped missile.

This is very dangerous, because this means that at some time before the next time Kim wants to blackmail South Korea and the US he is going to have to use enough force that his threats will regain credibility. I don't think there will be a major war, but I think a minor exchange of fire, at least, is inevitable at some point in the not too distant future if Kim wants to stay in power.

I wonder what his generals and other top officials in Pyongyang are whispering to one another when he can't hear. I guess the time to stage a coup without looking like total traitors would be a couple of months after this blows over.

Re:No more rhetorics

[dcollins]

"It seems to me that the North Korean leadership has just spent all of its rhetorical ammo. If the next thing out of Kim's mouth isn't a launch code and an authorization to launch a nuclear tipped missile he's just ruined his credibility."

Well, note that this is all going on during the annual U.S.-South Korea military exercises, which are scheduled to end in April (seem to be longer than prior years). Prediction: When the exercises end, Kim will announce that he was victorious in this announced war at turning away Americans from invading North Korea.

http://www.usfk.mil/usfk/press-release.foal.eagle.exercise.2013.1024
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foal_Eagle

Re:No more rhetorics

[slashmojo]

I guess the time to stage a coup without looking like total traitors would be a couple of months after this blows over.

Maybe that's the plan all along.. someone (or some group) somewhere is pushing young kim to make a fool of himself and his country so that he can then be deposed and NK can finally be rid of the old dynasty..

Or maybe they are all just nuts.

Re:No more rhetorics

[Anonymous Coward]

We should start calling him King Joffrey

Re:No more rhetorics

[rasmusbr]

Yeah, I think that is Kim's plan and it will probably work as intended on people in North Korea and Pyongyang, but the problem is that virtually nobody outside of the country will fall for it.

Telegraphing usually means they're full of it.

[RogueWarrior65]

My personal theory is that they don't really have a nuke but a lot of people think they do and NK knows that so they're taking advantage of the situation to try to get something.

Re:Telegraphing usually means they're full of it.

[TemperedAlchemist]

If it's more sanctions it's working.

Re:Telegraphing usually means they're full of it.

[Sardaukar86]

My personal theory is that they don't really have a nuke but a lot of people think they do and NK knows that so they're taking advantage of the situation to try to get something.

If they don't have nukes then that sure is a shitload of plutonium they have stockpiled.

Re:Telegraphing usually means they're full of it.

[RogueWarrior65]

There's a whole lot of speculation in that article which also says that NK claims to have achieved nuclear fusion. Yeah, right. That explains why the country is in near total darkness at night compared to its neighbors. Even if they have stockpiled plutonium without the means to make it go critical or a rocket to deliver it with, they are more likely to want to sell it. Sure they could build dirty bombs but what good would that do against the south? Make the place uninhabitable doesn't advance NK's realm.

Re:Telegraphing usually means they're full of it.

[Sardaukar86]

There's a whole lot of speculation in that article which also says that NK claims to have achieved nuclear fusion. Yeah, right. That explains why the country is in near total darkness at night compared to its neighbors.

No argument from me here. They'll never have what it takes to design a fusion bomb to say nothing of fusion power.

Even if they have stockpiled plutonium without the means to make it go critical or a rocket to deliver it with, they are more likely to want to sell it.

That's the real concern, although perhaps a little less likely now that Osama Bin Laden is out of the picture. What would Iran pay for weapons-grade Pu? What would a terrorist organisation pay for the ultimate weapon? As has been mentioned before, there are plenty of ways to deliver a nastygram without a highly-visible missile launch to make it obvious where it came from.

Sure they could build dirty bombs but what good would that do against the south? Make the place uninhabitable doesn't advance NK's realm.

Again, no argument from me, they see the South as part of their own country and probably wouldn't want to contaminate the place. I'm not sure that Kim's nukes are intended to be detonated, just rattled around in their silos to make a lot of scary noise to upset the West. I suspect it's a face game, Kim doesn't want to *ask* for aid, he wants to demand assistance and he wants it to look like he took forcibly from the trembling Western dogs.

April Fools

[Anonymous Coward]

Apparently April fools came early this year.

Schrodinger's war

[CanadianRealist]

It's Schrodinger's war: neither peace nor war has ended

They're just threatening to open the box and have a look.

Re:Schrodinger's war

[Anonymous Coward]

+geekcred

Re:Schrodinger's war

[Anonymous Coward]

Didn't we learn not to open random boxes a while back?

I mean, after the whole Pandora incident, I thought it was pretty clear that any random boxes be nuked from orbit and pray it doesn't remain.

Re:Schrodinger's war

[Tablizer]

not a good time to be a cat

Re:Schrodinger's war

[Anonymous Coward]

It might also be a war with lots of know unknowables and even more unknown unknowables, such as if it is a war or not or both. That is a Rumsfeld's War.

Re:Schrodinger's war

[istartedi]

That's OK. We have just the weapon for such a war. Our South Korean allies know all about it too, since we designed it and they implemented it.

Iran

[TheSHAD0W]

I know N. Korea has been in contact with Iran; is it possible Iran is paying N. Korea to act as a distraction, and help prevent the US from moving more assets into the Middle East?

Getting His Ding Dong In A Vice

[Anonymous Coward]

And not too sure which direction to turn the little handle.

There is a chance (small) that this idiot and his crew will provoke a major incident - like The Mouse That Roared...but with real blood and bodies.

Re:Getting His Ding Dong In A Vice

[roc97007]

And not too sure which direction to turn the little handle.

There is a chance (small) that this idiot and his crew will provoke a major incident - like The Mouse That Roared...but with real blood and bodies.

And no q-bomb.

The Absolute Other

[Anonymous Coward]

What makes N. Korea think that they will determine when they go to war? There are several bears in the woods and who knows which bear will wake up grumpy? Matter of fact if anyone wants to I strongly suspect that it would be rather easy to eliminate N. Korea before they even knew they were at war. I suppose that one way to get out of a place like N. Korea is in the form of a vapor, well stirred, and well roasted, floating high in the jet stream.

Cyberwar

[Mister Liberty]

I can see prices of Android tablets skyrocketing.
Apple must be behind all this.

Re:Cyberwar

[ubersoldat2k7]

Right side of this picture:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02522/north-korea-jong-m_2522857c.jpg

Re:Cyberwar

[laffer1]

Well you don't expect the guy to buy a Samsung do you?

Re:Cyberwar

[Anonymous Coward]

So this is what Jobs meant by "I’m willing to go thermonuclear war on this"...

Re:Cyberwar

[Anonymous Coward]

I read "pieces" instead of prices o_O

Aw, that's cute

[FuzzNugget]

Little Kim Jong Un found his toy soldier collection and wants to play war.

If this were actually serious, they'd be bombed into the stone-age before they managed to actually do anything.

Oh, wait...

What if US stealth candy bombed Kim's house?

[raymorris]

I wonder what would happen if the US used a stealth bomber to drop a 500 lb. bag of candy on Kim's house, just to make the point that we can drop anything on him at any time. Just a reminder that he lives precisely as long as Obama chooses to allow. Maybe follow it up with dropping a few thousand teddy bears on major population centers.

Re:What if US stealth candy bombed Kim's house?

[Anonymous Coward]

That doesn't seem useful.

Kim Jong Un knows that the US can kill him at any time, Kim Jong Un also knows that the North Korean military leadership can kill him at any time. He has to appease both, which he does by rattling the saber enough to please the military and not quite enough to make the US really angry.

Re:What if US stealth candy bombed Kim's house?

[CdBee]

Or just cut to the chase and drop a warhead.

Re:What if US stealth candy bombed Kim's house?

[Chemisor]

It should be cake. Then he'd know it's not a lie.

Re:What if US stealth candy bombed Kim's house?

[Todd Knarr]

Better idea: take the top generals in the hard-line faction, and identify which of them have a bunch of young grandchildren. On a day those grandchildren are at the general's house, drop a dud bomb loaded with 100lbs of Pop Rocks dead-center of the courtyard. A nice dual message: "Yes, we know who's really behind this and are perfectly willing and able to put an end to you." and "Yes, we're perfectly willing and able to make you suffer before we put an end to you.".

Re:What if US stealth candy bombed Kim's house?

[Tom]

Because a show of arrogance is how you win the hearts of a population that has been told for decades that you are arrogant bastards?

Re:What if US stealth candy bombed Kim's house?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've never met someone who had such a low opinion of Pop Rocks.

Re:What if US stealth candy bombed Kim's house?

[Pseudonym Authority]

Why should we care about winning their hearts? That's China's problem. We only need to stop them from attacking S. Korea.

Re:What if US stealth candy bombed Kim's house?

[Anonymous Coward]

Looking at his weight index, I'm quite sure he already knows cake is not a lie.

Re:What if US stealth candy bombed Kim's house?

[Tom]

They won't attack. So chill and stop acting crazy.

Re:What if US stealth candy bombed Kim's house?

[hairyfish]

Seems to be an overlooked strategy, one which I'd like to see more of. Instead of violence, imagine carpet bombing the country with small gifts? Parachute drop millions of packages of cute toys, chocolate, popular media and other trinkets with pro-west propaganda messages attached. It makes it hard for any govt to maintain any level of control or loyalty if supposed 'enemy' is showering you with presents.

Blitz

[wisnoskij]

This is not how you conduct a blitz.

Re:Blitz

[ItsJustAPseudonym]

Throw the rock, Mitch!

Re:Blitz

[Anonymous Coward]

This is not how you conduct a blitz.

Well... can you at least show us how to concoct a blintz?

Re:Blitz

[V!NCENT]

The perfect con... Seen the movie?

First make yourself look like an knowledgeable idiot, to hide that that you are not that stupid. By acting arrogant, nobody will ever even considder that you are smarter, not even a nanosecond.

Secondly, make your enemy arrogant (seems to work).

After that, hand your enemy your chess pieces, utilizing the trick that your pulled of at first. Make your enemy underestimate you.

Your enemy will be laughing his ass of, until he realizes he has positioned himself checkmate. He will not learn from his mistake, because nobody wants to question their own intelligence.

Lols...

Re:Blitz

[V!NCENT]

Imagine you're Kim and this is the situation you are in:
1. You're smart and you've attended university in Sweden;
2. You survived a hit;
3. Your dad was butfsck psychotic and manic;
4. Your army wants you dead, because they are underfed;
5. The US wants you dead, because of your father.
6. All your aids are cut off;
7. Your dad's nuke can't reach the USA;
8. South Korea^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Everybody wants you dead.

This is what I think, Kim is planning:
1. Act as he does (happening right now);
2. Position 28.500 US soldiers in the range of your one nuke, inside the country that wants you dead;
3. Nuke the bastards;
4. Thereby making the US nuke your army (that wants you dead), along with the butfsck retarted and brainwashed population that is theoretically shit out of luck anyway;
5. Flee off to India to get a facelift that you pay for with the money that you acquired through your military industry;
6. Laugh your ass off, because the US can't even figure if you're dead, because they just nuked you, okay?

Threads

[MatrixCubed]

Now's a good time to rewatch Threads, and lament the possibility that these asshats might have nukes, and might somehow be insane enough to use them.

Re:Threads

[CyberZen]

I was just remarking to my wife today that this reminds me of the first half-hour of Threads. I doubt this is actually going anywhere, though.

US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

Who's "Provocative Action"?

March 29 2013 - Hagel says U.S. has to take North Korean threats seriously

Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel said on Thursday that North Koreas provocative actions and belligerent tone had "ratcheted up the danger" on the Korean peninsula, ...

March 28 2013 - US sends nuclear-capable B-2 bombers to SKorea

The U.S military says two nuclear-capable B-2 bombers have completed a training mission in South Korea ...
...
The U.S. says the B-2 stealth bombers flew from a U.S. air base and dropped munitions on a South Korean island range before returning home.

March 26 2013 - U.S. Army learns hard lessons in N. Korea-like war game

The Unified Quest war game conducted this year by Army planners posited the collapse of a nuclear-armed, xenophobic, criminal family regime that had lorded over a closed society and inconveniently lost control over its nukes as it fell. Army leaders stayed mum about the model for the game, but all indications -- and maps seen during the game at the Army War College -- point to North Korea.

March 20 2013 - U.S. flies B-52s over South Korea

The U.S. Air Force is breaking out some of its heaviest hardware to send a message to North Korea.

A Pentagon spokesman said Monday that B-52 bombers are making flights over South Korea as part of military exercises this month.

March 19 2013 - S. Korea, U.S. carry out naval drills with nuclear attack submarine

South Korean and U.S. forces have been carrying out naval drills in seas around the peninsula with a nuclear attack submarine as part of their annual exercise, military sources said Wednesday, in a show of power against North Korea's threat of nuclear attack.

The two-month field training, called Foal Eagle, has been in full swing to test the combat readiness of the allies, amid high tension on the Korean Peninsula in light of a torrent of bellicose rhetoric by North Korea. It kicked off on March 1 and runs through April 30.

March 17 2013 - Troops remember sacrifices of Cheonan sailors

Halfway through the around-the-clock Key Resolve drills Friday, 8th U.S. Army Commander Lt. Gen. John D. Johnson remained full of energy as he underscored that the allied forces were ready to cope with North Korean threats.

...
Despite their hectic schedule, the troops gathered early in the day to pay respects to the 46 deceased crewmembers of South Korean corvette Cheonan, which was sunk by North Korea's torpedo attack on March 26, 2010.

March 12 2013 - First day of SK-US military exercises passes without provocation

Around 10,000 ROK troops and 3,000 US soldiers, including 2,500 reinforcements from US Pacific command in Hawaii, are taking part in the military exercise, which will continue through Mar. 21. Another 10,000 US soldiers will be deployed by the end of this month for the Foal Eagle exercises. Also flown in to participate in the exercises were B-52 bombers and F-22 stealth fighters, which boast the world's highest levels of performance. These two kinds of aircraft can maneuver throughout Korean airspace without landin

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[Anonymous Coward]

You know perfectly well why communist (or other) dictatorships go to war. They're close to losing control over their own country, either because the population is rising up (unlikely here) or because they're out of resources because they've built a state system filled with people used to divert state resources to personal ends (very likely the case here).

This won't end well, as it will force China and the US into a confrontation when the cleanup happens.

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[Forty Two Tenfold]

They're close to losing control over their own country, either because the population is rising up (unlikely here) or because they're out of resources because they've built a state system filled with people used to divert state resources to personal ends (very likely the case here).

This won't end well, as it will force China and the US into a confrontation when the cleanup happens.

I'm lost... Why are you calling the U.S. a communist dictatorship?

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

Sounds like you are describing the inverted dictatorship in EU, next year. And the US in the next 5.

They have a dictatorship of a Family. You have one of a Bank.

Big whooping difference.

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[Deus.1.01]

Meh...

North Korea began to piss of China almost just as much as it does with USA and South Korea.

Remember...China gets something out of South Korea with trade...North require aid and is constantly creates drama that threatens to destabilize the region.

I think I remember some officers being charged with trying to overtrhow the new kim-jung Un.... If it wasnt just paranoid purges....I'd bet the Chinese were behind it.

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[Luckyo]

NK has value of a buffer. Neither South Korea nor NATO who's bases it houses are friendly towards China. North Korea is near Chinese heartland.

This is the same issue as "holy shit, USSR has tactical nukes in Cuba" for USA. Only imagine if Cuba had land access to US mainland. And USSR put their best tanks and tactical bombers in there as well.

There will be a cold day in hell before China lets North Korea fall to the West.

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do you stalk and harass apk?

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[Anonymous Coward]

North Korea is occupied territory. China should start building settlements in the region. Let's see if they get the same treatment as our 'friends' in the middle east.

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[rtfa-troll]

I'm lost... Why are you calling the U.S. a communist dictatorship?

He works as the CEO of a large financial institution. After the Bush/Obama bailout it felt like he was a member of the Politburo.

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[Dins]

I'm calling bullshit. What possible (non-conspiracy theory related) reason could the US have for provoking a war with North Korea? What would we stand to gain? Obama has already been re-elected, the economy isn't doing great but also isn't awful, there's no oil involved, and the US public is already war-weary and has little stomach for another one.

I think the overwhelming majority of Americans just want NK to shut up and stop aggravating the situation...

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[DragonWriter]

You know perfectly well why communist (or other) dictatorships go to war. They're close to losing control over their own country, either because the population is rising up (unlikely here)

Actually, regimes with democratically elected leaders (including U.S. regimes in the 21st Century) going to war because the population is "rising up" against the current leaders (which, in a system where the regime can be replaced by an election, can just mean the current leadership dropping precipitously in the polls) and the leadership knows that war tends to produce a "rally-around-the-flag" effect is not at all unheard of.

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[SplashMyBandit]

Actually there was an attempted military coup in North Korea in November 2012 (Citation: http://intelnews.org/2013/03/15/01-1217/) . Looks like the Party can't trust the military anymore. Hence, we have North Korea declaring war (that they cannot possibly hope to win).

Strange the grandparent attributes the declaration of war to Us actions. The US were simply not letting North Korea get away with the same provocations they did in the past. After 60 years of bad behavior and criminal acts from North Korea the patience of the US and South Korea have finally run out. However Jeremiah Cornelius would like to ignore the kidnappings (of South Koreans and Japanese actresses), assassinations, murders, drug running, weapon proliferation, DMZ shootings and axe attacks, and brutal oppression of the NK people by the NK leadership. Instead Jeremiah continues his bankrupt crusade to demonize the US at every opportunity, by selectively choosing facts. Shame on you JC ! and your ilk.

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[RogL]

Who's "Provocative Action"?

March 29 2013 - Hagel says U.S. has to take North Korean threats seriously

Umm... how is saying we're going to take a country's statements seriously, provocative?

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[AK Marc]

And only our political failures will make this an issue. China wants a buffer zone, and not having to deal with all the refugees. If SK agreed to open borders with the north, and the US/UN/SK agreed to not put any weapons in NK, I would expect China to officially ally with the US/UN against NK. The problem is that we want to show as "strong" so we don't negotiate, we dictate. So we'll screw it up, insist we have the right to put a base in NK for "safety of South Korea", and China will not join us, and could end up starting a proxy war to gauge US military capability in the stealth-wars. It's our choice, but the leaders will pick something stupid then blame it all on the Chinese.

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[robot5x]

I heard a rumour that once upon a time, wars were started for even more specious reasons like - to liberate an oppressed and downtrodden populace, or EVEN to provide regional geo-political stability.

Imagine that!

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

The real reason is not actual war - but draining of resources, in sustained and drawn-out game plan.

It is planting season, in N Korea. The army has traditionally been used like a CCC labor force to do this.

Now? They go on alert instead - and famine is ratcheted another notch...

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

Never.

Those were the cover-stories, to get parents to donate their children, instead of resist.

You HAVE been brainwashed.

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[Belial6]

I can't count the number of times I heard people say "You don't change leaders in the middle of a war." as a reason to vote Bush in for a second term.

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Reuniting Korea is estimated to cost trillions. If the US went to war, it couldn't afford to foot the bill (China could easily see to that by pressuring the US with debt owed). With South Korea paying the cost, their economic situation becomes much worse giving China an even better economic situation.

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

By Vectron!

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[khallow]

If SK agreed to open borders with the north, and the US/UN/SK agreed to not put any weapons in NK, I would expect China to officially ally with the US/UN against NK.

China would run the risk of a unified Korea, making a potential rival considerably stronger. I think they've already demonstrated over sixty years, that they don't want that happening.

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[Deus.1.01]

This is not your fathers communist China.

I think that china got their priorities changed during the last sixty/fifty years(or at least changed the battleground).

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[khallow]

I think that china got their priorities changed during the last sixty/fifty years(or at least changed the battleground).

So what? They are still standing in the way of a Korean unification and I think they do so precisely because they still want a divided Korea.

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[AK Marc]

They don't care about a "new competitor." They are more concerned about a Cuban Missile Crisis situation (think of the US deployment in South Korea being on the Korea/China border, with nukes pointed at Beijing). We could be doing that now in SK, but NK gives the feel of a buffer.

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[AK Marc]

They aren't standing in the way of reunification. They are just not pushing for it. They don't want a "divided Korea" They couldn't care less about Korea, other than wanting a nice military buffer between an aggressive and imperialist US Army and Beijing, which is not far from Korea. I have no doubt that if they were offered a complete disarmament of the Korean peninsula, in exchange for providing defense, as the US does for Japan, China would be willing to invade NK to put an end to their insanity. But the US believes China to be an enemy so much that I don't think anyone with the power to do it would consider it seriously enough to get an answer. After all, why use diplomacy when you can just kill people.

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[roc97007]

Not only that, but North Korea has nothing we could possibly want.

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[khallow]

I have no doubt that if they were offered a complete disarmament of the Korean peninsula, in exchange for providing defense, as the US does for Japan, China would be willing to invade NK to put an end to their insanity. But the US believes China to be an enemy so much that I don't think anyone with the power to do it would consider it seriously enough to get an answer.

I would have to side with the US government viewpoint here. It would be a hideous injustice to throw South Korea to the wolves. Let us keep in mind who supported North Korea for all these decades and how that turned out.

It may end up, with weakening US power that China ends up dominating the Korea peninsula anyway. But even in that case, I don't see them supporting unification. Presently, they have weak, militarily insignificant neighbors. A unified Korea could become a problem down the road, say a seed for anti-Chinese dissatisfaction among China's neighbors.

A standard empire building tactic is divide and conquer. I don't think it's wise to hope that they don't develop a habit for empire.

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[Teancum]

The U.S. Marine Corps could easily perform an amphibious invasion onto China from several existing bases in that region, and with the assistance of several nuclear submarines could even start that action largely undetected with quite a few people already on the ground preparing such an invasion at any time before the Chinese military could react.

Seriously, the notion of a buffer zone is a silly and outdated notion, and North Korea is increasingly slipping into the backwater of insignificance on the global stage. The kind of bluster that they are making right now even shows how insignificant they have become.

Tuvalu and Niue are just as much of a buffer against "American imperial aggression" as North Korea and cost China a whole lot less in terms of foreign aid. Even the North Korean form of Communism is laughable in China. About the only thing that keeps China from completely pulling the plug is that North Korea represents a way to continue to tweak the nose of America from time to time for laughs and giggles, thus plays well for domestic (to China) public relations efforts.

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[Teancum]

America can easily afford to go to war against China.... and certainly could take care of North Korea without a second thought.

You are correct though about how much it would cost to bring North Korea into the 21st Century though.... which might be a good thing for China as well. South Korea would be so self-absorbed by trying to "fix" North Korea that they wouldn't even remotely be concerned about anything else for well over a century and might even be friendlier to China in the long run.

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[flimflammer]

Does it bother you?

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[Teancum]

I can't count the number of times I heard people say "You don't change leaders in the middle of a war." as a reason to vote Bush in for a second term.

You really believe that was the reason Bush was re-elected for his 2nd term? There might have been some old farts and a few fringe people saying stuff like that, but it wasn't even a major campaign discussion point.... other than simply showing "his record" in how he was "acting presidential" during his first term.

I certainly doubt if you asked many of those who actually cast a vote for Bush on his 2nd term that their response for why they did that was to "keep from changing leaders during a war".

Hell, most Americans hardly even noticed or even still notice that America is even at war with anybody or that its soldiers are in harms way... except for perhaps the few that have close friends serving in Afghanistan or Iraq. Even then it seems very distant and completely unrelated at all to current events or even dealing with ordinary life in America. It sure isn't like the huge domestic sacrifices that were made during World War I and World War II.

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[AK Marc]

I would have to side with the US government viewpoint here. It would be a hideous injustice to throw South Korea to the wolves. Let us keep in mind who supported North Korea for all these decades and how that turned out.

Please explain how anything in my suggestion was throwing them to the wolves. I think your emotion is getting the better of you, you are so anti-china biased you aren't even listening to anything.

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[AK Marc]

China has been cutting support as the US cut support, and has supported the US lead sanctions. China liked the idea of a communist neighbor, but NK isn't communist. A single dictator owning everything who heads the government is technically communism (the government owns everything), but isn't communism is spirit, where the people own everything. Fascism and communism are almost the same thing, the difference is only in the route there.

That and China is not communist anymore. It's capitalist (globally) and communist (locally) and that distinction wasn't defined previously because, aside from oil, communist countries have never been strong exporters.

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[Luckyo]

And get thrown back into the sea within days because of lack of resupply and ground support. There is a reason why every before single invasion US has performed so far, ground based supply lines were painstakingly negotiated. And that was against countries that didn't actually have a capability to completely cut off any beachhead from resupply. Chinese have such capability in droves, all it takes is a one small fast low profile missile/torpedo interceptor boat to sink several supply ships. And China has those in thousands.

And regardless, as was shown with cold war, you need a beheading strike capability before engaging a nation with strategic nuclear weapons. That means as many functional access paths to nations capital and military bases. You're not going to be capturing those from marine beachheads - their artillery alone will ensure that no beach head can be established in reasonable range.

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[Teancum]

A U.S. invasion of China would likely happen through Russia anyway, both because you would need another major power as a substantial ally and also because that would give you the necessary ground support you are talking about.

Besides, what is there in China that America wants? It doesn't need workers as Mexico already provides that (in terms of low-skilled workers to fill in at the bottom of the economic ladder) and America has plenty of land available to do whatever it wants. More to the point, there isn't any reason for America to really go into China.

North Korea isn't needed as a buffer, which is the point I was making. That may have been useful when Chairman Mao was still running China and the Cold War was still going on, but circumstances and technology have made that sort of a moot issue.

Assuming that America was foolish enough to mount a ground invasion of China, it would also not hesitate to involve nuclear weapons as well and risk the consequences of such an act. As such, everything you might think about in terms of such invasions would have larger consequences and would be very different from other kinds of military engagements that have happened in the past. There have been all sorts of theories about how nuclear weapons might be used in a combined arms situation where nuclear weapons are one of the aspects of that action, but so far nobody has actually put such weapons into practice with the exception of the end of World War II. Even then, the nuclear weapons were merely alternatives to things like the carpet bombing and fire bombs, where the incendiary raid on Tokyo (much less Dresden) was far more destructive than the nukes were. Modern nuclear weapons simply haven't been used and experience in the Cold War means nothing as they were never used except for political purposes. They certainly have never been used by a general who might take advantage of those weapons.... or fail miserably like the artillery barrages that happened in World War I.

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[Anonymous Coward]

To this, I say, why not? APK has a long standing history of inciting ridiculous wars to prove to everyone what a better person they are. They also have a horrendous posting style that smacks of arrogance and self righteousness.

APK is getting exactly what they deserve. And it's hilarious.

Posting anon as I moderated in this topic earlier.

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[Dins]

If I could mod this +1 Insightful, I would. I hadn't thought of it like that, but I guess that's possible. Not saying I believe that's what's happening, but it's possible.

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[Luckyo]

You're thinking in terms of current strategic situation. Country-toppling is long term strategic issue. China is clearly headed for a strategic alliance with Russia (as shown with state visits of new government) and on a direct collision course with NATO in some decade or two. At this point, small scale territorial conflicts between giants will become feasible, in the style of Sino-Soviet conflict. NATO will likely do what it always did, use a proxy through which war will be fought. South Korea makes for one of the best candidates here, and as a result, importance of North Korea keeping it in check and buffering it from mainland China is of paramount long term strategic importance.

The fact that NK also functions as an exceptional drain on NATO forces in the region on constant basis is a short term strategic cherry on top of the long term pie.

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[Luckyo]

The cost of going to war against China would be the loss of most of the Asian continent and North American continent to nuclear, biological and chemical WMDs. I'm quite certain that US cannot afford such a cost.

Even without this option, China is the most populous nation on the planet. And while its military isn't all that modern (yet), it's using tried and true russian tech, much of which is being or has been recently modernised. This is not going to be Iraq/Afghanistan where a nation massively crippled by sanctions for decades has to fight a far technologically and numerically superior enemy. This will be a nation with moderate technological inferiority and significant numerical superiority that has enjoyed an unprecedented boom and supplies much of materials necessary for its opponent to fight the war in the first place.

It's not a war you can win. Even a victory would likely be a phyrric one, nuclear weapons or not.

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[Anonymous Coward]

It depends - if the US agrees to no longer station its forces on the Korean peninsula, I'd imagine they'd agree readily - remove North Korea from the equation and why is the US arming South Korea/maintaining a division there? Depending on how Japan-Korean relations stand these days, the US might be well served to try to let a Japan/Korea alliance (economic more than military) play regional counterweight to China.

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[Luckyo]

NATO's classic long term strategy is to encircle its strategic enemies. This was done with USSR, and this is being done with China. There will be an equally cold day in hell when USA will pull out of South Korea with importance of China's encirclement increasing rapidly in near future.

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[Hal_Porter]

Actually the South Koreans reckon they are quite close to a deal with China

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/29/wikileaks-cables-china-reunified-korea

In highly sensitive discussions in February this year, the-then South Korean vice-foreign minister, Chun Yung-woo, told a US ambassador, Kathleen Stephens, that younger generation Chinese Communist party leaders no longer regarded North Korea as a useful or reliable ally and would not risk renewed armed conflict on the peninsula, according to a secret cable to Washington.

Chun, who has since been appointed national security adviser to South Korea's president, said North Korea had already collapsed economically.

Political collapse would ensue once Kim Jong-il died, despite the dictator's efforts to obtain Chinese help and to secure the succession for his son, Kim Jong-un.

"Citing private conversations during previous sessions of the six-party talks , Chun claimed [the two high-level officials] believed Korea should be unified under ROK [South Korea] control," Stephens reported.

"The two officials, Chun said, were ready to 'face the new reality' that the DPRK [North Korea] now had little value to China as a buffer state - a view that, since North Korea's first nuclear test in 2006, had reportedly gained traction among senior PRC [People's Republic of China] leaders. Chun argued that in the event of a North Korean collapse, China would clearly 'not welcome' any US military presence north of the DMZ [demilitarised zone]. Again citing his conversations with [the officials], Chun said the PRC would be comfortable with a reunified Korea controlled by Seoul and anchored to the US in a 'benign alliance' - as long as Korea was not hostile towards China. Tremendous trade and labour-export opportunities for Chinese companies, Chun said, would also help 'salve' PRC concerns about . a reunified Korea.

"Chun dismissed the prospect of a possible PRC military intervention in the event of a DPRK collapse, noting that China's strategic economic interests now lie with the United States, Japan and South Korea - not North Korea."

Chun told Stephens China was unable to persuade Pyongyang to change its self-defeating policies - Beijing had "much less influence than most people believe" - and lacked the will to enforce its views.

A senior Chinese official, speaking off the record, also said China's influence with the North was frequently overestimated. But Chinese public opinion was increasingly critical of the North's behaviour, the official said, and that was reflected in changed government thinking.

Previously hidden tensions between Pyongyang and its only ally were also exposed by China's then vice-foreign minister in a meeting in April 2009 with a US embassy official after North Korea blasted a three-stage rocket over Japan into the Pacific. Pyongyang said its purpose was to send a satellite into orbit but the US, South Korea and Japan saw the launch as a test of long-range missile technology.

Discussing how to tackle the issue with the charge d'affaires at the Beijing embassy, He Yafei observed that "North Korea wanted to engage directly with the United States and was therefore acting like a 'spoiled child' in order to get the attention of the 'adult'. China encouraged the United States, 'after some time', to start to re-engage the DPRK," according to the diplomatic cable sent to Washington.

You could imagine a deal where US forces stay south of the DMZ to keep the Chinese happy. So South Korean forces would need to occupy the North.

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[khallow]

Please explain how anything in my suggestion was throwing them to the wolves.

Here's what you wrote and what I quoted:

I have no doubt that if they were offered a complete disarmament of the Korean peninsula, in exchange for providing defense, as the US does for Japan, China would be willing to invade NK to put an end to their insanity.

That's throwing both Koreas to the wolves. First, the US would be dismantling the only counterweight to Chinese military power in the region and simultaneously allowing that power to be extended throughout the Korea peninsula. Second, it'd be explicit approval of Chinese annexation of North Korea.

I'd also wager that the US would lose in short order both Japan and Taiwan to China's sphere of influence after such an action. Not because China would do anything special to court or coerce them, but merely because the US could no longer be relied on to protect them against Chinese power.

Further, the precedent of allowing China to take over North Korea militarily would probably encourage them in further such military adventures say with Indochina as well as implicit approval of similar past Chinese military actions, particularly the annexation of Tibet.

Finally, the current state of affairs strengthens the Chinese factions that favors economic power over military power. Allowing the Chinese military such a victory shifts power to them, especially when coupled with the above defections and military opportunities. More Chinese decisions will then be made on a military basis than on an economic one. I think that will result in a lot of trouble and a far more warlike empire down the road.

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[AK Marc]

That's throwing both Koreas to the wolves. First, the US would be dismantling the only counterweight to Chinese military power in the region and simultaneously allowing that power to be extended throughout the Korea peninsula. Second, it'd be explicit approval of Chinese annexation of North Korea.

And has no negative effects on South Korea, so I don't see it as throwing South Korea to the wolves. I don't recall if I said it near that statement, but I've said multiple times that a condition of China rule is an open border between NK and SK if administered separately. If someone lived in NK and didn't like it, they could move to SK. Again, I don't see how any of that throws someone in Seoul "to the wolves" when NK is no longer at war with them and has no weapons pointed at them. Seems like an improvement.

The rest isn't an issue with Korea, but your anti-China bias showing when any "deal" with them is the same as flying to Lhasa and shooting a Tibetan in the head. I'm too rational and well informed to fall for that.

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[AK Marc]

I think there are a large number of solutions that China and South Korea would agree to, but the USA would interfere with anything that doesn't leave them with a large military presence on the peninsula. China would be happy with a demilitarized, unified Korea under SK rule, but it likely uncomfortable with a SK control of NK with no influence, leaving SK free to sell bases on China's border to the USA, which the US would try to guild SK into for defending them for all these years.

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[Hal_Porter]

If a reunified Korea asked US forces to leave they'd do so. Just like they did in Saudi Arabia.

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[khallow]

And has no negative effects on South Korea,

Aside from now being forced to follow the direction of the leaders of China.

If someone lived in NK and didn't like it, they could move to SK.

Unless they were prohibited from doing so by China which now controls the region. See where I'm going with this?

but your anti-China bias showing

Why shouldn't I have anti-China bias? We're not speaking of a mostly honest government like Switzerland. If we give them a free gift of power, then they will take it. That's just what'll happen.

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[AK Marc]

. See where I'm going with this?

Yeah, you are hearing a proposal with conditions, then picking and choosing the conditions you think are good are not followed, and the conditions that are bad are not followed, then somehow asserting your inconsistency as a fault of the proposal. I see exactly where you are going with this.

Why shouldn't I have anti-China bias?

China has been historically very anti-imperialist. Nearly every war they've ever been involved in was started by someone else attacking them.

I know you whine about then needing to get out of Tibet and such. Sure, right after England exists Scotland and Ireland. Nearly every country has an area they annexed at some point. Tibetans considered themselves Chinese, just not Han, so a "unified China" should include them. At least the Chinese haven't gone after Malasia or Singapore (ethnically very Chinese).

I still don't get why you fear and hate them. Is there some reason, or is it just another irrational racial/nationalistic bias?

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[noobermin]

Duh, Obama?

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Because APK stalks and harasses anyone foolish enough to engage him.

I've seen him (the original APK) follow the same poster from thread to thread for days and weeks constantly mocking them and claiming some kind of argument 'victory' and linking to the exchange he 'won'. Each subsequent post links back to the earlier ones until you have a ridiculous list of frothing self congratulation, peppered with the same phrases.

People have tried, gently, pointing out that his style is almost incomprehensible, that his behaviour seems childish and deeply insecure - they are attacked, challenged and then stalked.

Long before these mockeries, I'd wade through threads where a significant portion of the comments were APK replying to himself with minor changes to the cut-n-paste, loudly singing his own praises or declaring some kind of victory. Ignoring him doesn't work. He'll find some other poor person to take offence at/with and follow them around, spamming replies for weeks - longer if they attempt to engage him. Too many drugs or not enough - I've seen accusations of recreational drug use of a kind that leads to both paranoia and obsession. Who knows?

These, however, are brilliant. APK's posts have slowed to a trickle. He's having to spend more time trying to convince people that they aren't his than harassing regular users. Where attempts to persuade him that his content and style are bordering on the incomprehensible have failed, maybe people being unable to distinguish between his posts and these parodies will finally get him to moderate his style or, as seems to be happening, leave.

I say 'bravo'. I've very much enjoyed the Time Cube post and trying to spot how many meme's have been woven through.

To be clear, I am not JC nor one of the others that have been posting parodies of APK - just someone who has run into APK both here and on other forums.

Re:US Desires this - nad deliberately PROVOKED it.

[Luckyo]

Something one should remember when disseminating such information: source is an interested party.

Remember the Iraqi in exile who told USA leadership that they would be welcomed as liberators in Iraq?

On a side note...

[roc97007]

So... during all this falderall, we get to see a lot of photos of Young Dear Leader surrounded by elderly men in military uniforms with ridiculously large hats, pointing dramatically this way and that. Occasionally you get a side view of Dear Leader and... all I can think of is MAN he's fat. Looks like close to 300 pounds. They try to disguise it with clothes and camera angles but there's no denying that he is a Big Boy. Maybe we should just send truckloads of Cinnabuns and wait for the inevitable?

Re:On a side note...

[Bearhouse]

Genuinely lolled. Thanks for a slice of humour in a otherwise rather grim thread.

Actually, might be an idea; ship out that plus plenty of beer and hookers.

China is the key

[Anonymous Coward]

If this gets out of hand, they will step in and slap them down. China cant afford trouble either. They have opened their countries economics to the rest of the world far to much to risk it.

North Korean's worst threat is to disintigrate

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot one additional point: the North Korean government, while terrible, does keep order within its borders. If North Korea were to completely collapse, there would be a heavily armed, nuclear-capable, failed state with 20+ million starving people on the Korean Peninsula. Neither China, Russia, S. Korea, Japan, the U.S. or the world economy in general wants to be forced to deal with that outcome. Even without nukes or armed conflict, it would be a humanitarian disaster of historic proportions.

In effect, it's their last resort for blackmail: help us, or we'll burn our house down and make you clean up the mess.

Battle Commander

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps the North Korean Ender Wiggins has graduated from battle school and is now ready...

Re:Battle Commander

[Sardaukar86]

Perhaps the North Korean Ender Wiggins has graduated from battle school and is now ready...

Looks a bit more like Ralph Wiggins to me..

Yawn...

[Orleron]

Actually there isn't a big enough yawn to encompass the boredom I have with N. Korea's threats in the news. Wake me up when they decide to commit national suicide by actually doing something.

I know, kill 'em all right. Let God sort them out.

[transporter_ii]

How we set aside our morals and learned to love the bomb

if china were smart

[rubycodez]

they'd quietly kill of the movers and shakers in upper government and put in puppets, spent a few billion have a nice big colony next door. otherwise there is, after the smoke settles, real probability of U.S friendly ally right on their border

I will just leave this here.

[wbr1]

http://i.imgur.com/DnDVszZ.gif

He's an Apple Fanboy

[ubersoldat2k7]

OMG! Everybody! Run!

The great leader is an Apple Fanboy http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02522/north-korea-jong-m_2522857c.jpg

That should end this stupid war: move some of Apple production lines to the NK/SK frontier and let Kim brag about being the first to get an iWatch.

Funny, it could be him doing all those photoshops.

Re:He's an Apple Fanboy

[robbie73]

I guess that Mac will be the missile guidance system there. It is probably NK's most powerful computer.

They ARE the memo

[fyngyrz]

Imagine the US is winding down it's two cash cow wars; almost done with Iraq, and Afghanistan's end is in sight, if not in fact.

Imagine the USMIC without a constant flow of cash.

We'll be needing -- and having -- a new war. Just watch. NK could be very convenient for the USA. And if not NK, then someone else. But NK has all the characteristics we want: A smallish country, an easily defeated military, a huge population to keep us there fighting in the bushes for 5-10 years, no particular economic value to be concerned about, has been described as part of the mythical "axis of evil"...

Yep, I'm pretty sure I smell another uptick in USMIC stocks.

Re:They ARE the memo

[l0ungeb0y]

And 11 million lives in Seoul that are pretty much forfeit in under 5 minutes when the shelling starts. No profit for Haliburton and other Contractors if all that's left is a smoking hole in the ground. Read up on the Korean DMZ, then you'll see exactly why te USMIC doesn't want to touch this. And exactly why they DIDN'T touch it under Bush and his warmonger cronies when they had clear evidence that N Korea was seeking Nuclear Capability.

Re:They ARE the memo

[Orcris]

The US is more likely to attack Iran. It needs some war, but it would be easier to get away with one against a country with a supposed WMD program that is sponsoring terrorists than one that definitely has a WMD program. Also, all of the NK refugees would spill into China and SK. Neither of those countries could deal with them.

Re:They ARE the memo

[Immerman]

Not to mention what exactly happens to the US if we see a massive influx of soldiers who have just been laid off from the best job they were qualified for and are returning to an economy that's already suffering from a shortage of low-skill jobs. I imagine that's a scenario that makes a lot of bankers and politicians nervous.

Re:They ARE the memo

[DragonWriter]

And 11 million lives in Seoul that are pretty much forfeit in under 5 minutes when the shelling starts. No profit for Haliburton and other Contractors if all that's left is a smoking hole in the ground.

The US government gave Halliburton and other US contractors plenty of money to rebuild smoking holes in the ground of the country we blew up. You don't think we'd do as much in an allied country after an enemy blew them up?

Re:They ARE the memo

[he-sk]

NK also has a powerful neighbor in the north who would object to further encroachment by US troops so close to its borders as it did in the past and who is the only reason why there is a NK in the first place.

If the US intervenes in NK without the (tacit) acknowledgement of China things will get really ugly really fast.

Re:They ARE the memo

[fyngyrz]

Yeah, might be Iran. Or Iran, too.

As for refugees spilling into SK, no, probably not. DMZ, ya see.

Re:They ARE the memo

[fyngyrz]

Maybe. I don't know if that's true any longer. China is a deeply invested trade partner today, not an opponent. They might actually look with favor on our stepping in there. Especially now that the little crazytard has some minimal nuclear capacity. They might just think that fond as they are of him, it might be time to pull that tooth.

Re:They ARE the memo

[fyngyrz]

You've got it backwards.

That smoking hole in the ground wouldn't be the consequence; it'd be the precursor.

They're just waiting for the little crazy guy to step out of line. That'd be it, right there.

Re:They ARE the memo

[Anonymous Coward]

"an easily defeated military" - you cant bomb them back into the stone age and your pussies at a baynet level fight.

Re:They ARE the memo

[chris200x9]

I also think North Korea wants a war so they can give up and get rebuilt with US money, look at the German reconstruction after world war two.

Re:They ARE the memo

[gtall]

At most they want to drop 250,000, mostly Army and Marines. The Air Force and the Navy (forgetting the Marines) aren't that big. Not massive, only in your imagination.

Re:They ARE the memo

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, might be Iran. Or Iran, too.

As for refugees spilling into SK, no, probably not. DMZ, ya see.

Indeed, getting past a 3-kilometer thick net of landmines that stretches all the way across the 38th parallel of the Korean Peninsula, as well as the electrically-charged barbed wire, tends to keep people in North Korea as it is. It's why people who defect from North Korea go further north into the section of China that has a large Korean minority, where they won't be noticed until they can flee China. They have to also escape China since, if they are discovered, they are deported back to North Korea where they help fill up the concentration camps.

Re:They ARE the memo

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the common wisdom: that Seoul would be instantaneously destroyed by artillery.

Three questions:

1) We've had over 50 years to map out the location every bunker, every possible artillery battery. We've have guided rocket systems for ever. Why wouldn't we, at the same instant, destroy all those batteries?

2) If a war actually began, why would N. Korea elect to destroy civilian instead of military targets? In the first few moments of the war, if they don't pound military targets they're almost guaranteed to lose quickly.

3) Has there ever been a city obliterated by anything other than nuclear arms? Tokyo and Berlin are both still standing, FWIW.

I suspect that, if a real war started, Seoul would be just fine. Certainly lots of damage, but it's not like it would disappear. In all likelihood only a small fraction (and substantial fraction, mind you) of buildings would be effected.

Re:They ARE the memo

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, remember that Saddam Hussein promised to obliterate Kuwait, both in 1991 and 2003? He certainly had the equipment to do so.

And yet... that never happened. Why? Because when a war begins, your first priority is fighting a war, not killing civilians out of spite. Every civilian building or human you destroy out of spite is a tiny defeat for yourself. The oil fields prove my point: they literally took no additional military resources or movements... they were destroyed as the military was retreating through those fields.

This bluster about Seoul is just N. Korean propaganda. But it also works to S. Korea's and America's advantage. We've been a-okay with containment since the armistice. So what do you say when the nutty general promises something completely illogical? "Yessir! We don't want that either, sir!" And when war mongers in your own population want to provoke a war: "But citizens, Seoul will be destroyed!"

Re:They ARE the memo

[Darinbob]

Ya, but we don't want North Korea. I think it would be smarter to go to war with Greenland. Makes a lot of sense. A big break from all that hot desert warfare; small standing army; and in 50 years it will beprime tropical resort real estate.

Re:They ARE the memo

[mrchaotica]

3) Has there ever been a city obliterated by anything other than nuclear arms? Tokyo and Berlin are both still standing, FWIW.

Dresden.

In four raids between 13 and 15 February 1945, 722 heavy bombers of the British Royal Air Force (RAF) and 527 of the United States Army Air Forces (USAAF) dropped more than 3,900 tons of high-explosive bombs and incendiary devices on the city.[1] The resulting firestorm destroyed fifteen square miles (39 square kilometres) of the city centre. Between 22,000â"25,000 people were killed.

Re:They ARE the memo

[mrchaotica]

Not to mention, people in the Navy and Air Force have jobs that transfer skills to civilian careers (as opposed to the Army, where everyone is an infantryman first, and a [mechanic/cook/logistics clerk/whatever] second).

Re:They ARE the memo

[shutdown -p now]

Post-war reconstruction can be a very lucrative business, especially when there is little oversight. Just ask the numerous Russian semi-private companies who got rich rebuilding Chechnya.

Re:They ARE the memo

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you serious? When the war is over we will build a better, more glorious Seoul which costs 10 times what the current one did. Plus in the interim so much infrastructure will be required to house displaced Koreans. It's a military contractor's wet dream.

The only thing that could make it more lucrative would be if North Korea created a nuclear contaminated zone that needed cleaning fir.. Oh wait

Re:They ARE the memo

[Teancum]

What soldiers in the US are being laid off? Yes, I know that there are some cut-backs (bonuses are no longer being paid to recruits and soldiers are not being allowed to reenlist), but it isn't a "massive influx". The U.S. military right now is at a decade long low point even as it is, and in proportion to the overall American economy those who are serving in the military is laughably small.

By far a much larger influence on the American economy has been the termination of a great many service contracts that used to be performed by civilian employees who worked on military bases or did things for companies with military contracts that no longer exist. Most of those are usually highly skilled workers that can find employment elsewhere doing largely the same thing (including making weapons that are simply being sold to another customer like South Korea or Japan).

As for military personnel themselves that are being discharged.... you might be surprised how many of them have skills that are highly sought after as well. Very few people in the U.S. Army are merely "riflemen" that has no counterpart in civilian life. Even fewer in the Marine Corps (where Marines even receive law enforcement training that can translate into civilian equivalence as a police officer). Nearly every military specialization in the U.S. Air Force and U.S. Navy has a civilian equivalent that represents at least a 2-year college equivalent or better education with significant work experience that is also sought by civilian employers... and that is just the enlisted personnel.

The only real concern about cutting back the military is that the freeze on hiring makes it harder for some teenagers and recent high school graduates to find employment. That isn't exactly anything new for a civilian economy to cope with either. I seriously doubt you know much about how the U.S. military works if you really think this is even remotely a concern for politicians in America.

Re:They ARE the memo

[Anonymous Coward]

Glad to see Obama has taken steps to stop this.... Oh, wait...

Re:They ARE the memo

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you are incorrect...because as soon as the shelling starts, the guns doing the shooting will be destroyed almost immediately. NK doesn't have much of a defense against a modern air force and artillery.

Add to it, if NK were to attack the south, China and Russia would pretty much withdraw any and all support from them. And the embargo that would surround the country, not allowing ANYTHING in, would pretty much cause it to shut down.

Re:They ARE the memo

[Kjella]

Read up on the Korean DMZ, then you'll see exactly why te USMIC doesn't want to touch this.

The real reason is that it's on China's doorstep, if the US invades North Korea they'll literally be on the Chinese border to the north. If shit really hits the fan and North Korea really had to be eliminated I think China would rather invade themselves than let the US do it.

Re:They ARE the memo

[NewYork]

DPRK has no oil.

Re:They ARE the memo

[Anonymous Coward]

People keep claiming this. First off your number is insanely overblown compared to even the most paranoid estimates.

Second: those artillery installments are old, outdated and who knows if they are even capable of firing anymore.

While there would be some damage, claiming that Seoul is wiped out is just outright retarded.

Re:They ARE the memo

[Xest]

To be fair, not just Dresden, most cities that were victims of Hitler's blitzes were too- Stalingrad for example.

Whilst London was too big to obliterate, Hitlers attempts during the Battle of Britain destroyed enough of it that if it had been most other cities at the time in size it would've been destroyed.

Re:They ARE the memo

[Xest]

I don't know why people still lump Russia and China in together with North Korea as if they're still in some part of communist cold war pact.

Russia has more interest in South Korea than North because it wants South Korea to consume it's gas which it does so to a greater degree than the North. Russia has supported all Western resolutions at the UN against North Korea in part for this reason.

North Korea's only real allies are China, Iran, Syria, Cuba, and Venezuela. No one else cares.

North Korea already lost Russia's support, long ago, they've no interest in a nuclear armed war mongering nation on their border no matter how much they usually enjoy sticking one to the US.

Re:They ARE the memo

[Hognoxious]

High explosive takes out bridges & other transportation. Pepper the rest of the city with nerve agents[1]. Even if they only got a few volleys off before the counterstrike the result wouldn't be pretty.

[1] Do we have any idea whether they have those?

DEFCON 4?

[qualico]

So they have made these same threats many times before and that negates ANY threat?

Is it not a bit more concerning this time given that they NOW have a missile capable of hitting mainland US with a nuclear war head?
AND
What happened to the DEFCON system?
Should it not be changed given you have the above situation?

‘He who exercises no forethought but makes light of his opponents is sure to be captured by them.’
-Sun Tzu, The Art of War

Nancy was right

[Nov8tr]

Kim Jong Un.............this is your brain on drugs.

"Greatest Commander Ever"? Sorry, already taken...

[gweihir]

By Adolf Hitler (who was a pretty bad commander, fortunately) and countless others. The sad thing is that apparently quite a few idiots in N Korea believe such things.

Of course the North Koreans....

[unixisc]

From the OP:

A senior U.S. official called this statement "pot-banging and chest-thumping." The official said, "North Korea is in a mindset of war, but North Korea is not going to war."

This is going to be Marshall Kim's trump card. His troops can just walk into Seoul, while the US won't do a thing, b'cos they obviously don't believe that he's really going to war, regardless of all the missile tests that they've been launching.

Re:Of course the North Koreans....

[Anonymous Coward]

It burns

The stupid, it burns

Re:Of course the North Koreans....

[DragonWriter]

This is going to be Marshall Kim's trump card. His troops can just walk into Seoul, while the US won't do a thing, b'cos they obviously don't believe that he's really going to war, regardless of all the missile tests that they've been launching.

"Say they don't believe that there will be a war", "Don't believe that there will be a war", and "Aren't prepared to win a war if it does happen" are three different things. the US government clearly meets the first description, might meet the second, but doesn't meet the third.

If you don't understand the distinction between the second and the third, consider the Argentine invasion of the Falkland Islands in 1982.

Re:Of course the North Koreans....

[russotto]

This is going to be Marshall Kim's trump card. His troops can just walk into Seoul, while the US won't do a thing, b'cos they obviously don't believe that he's really going to war, regardless of all the missile tests that they've been launching.

Walk? It's a hell of a walk across those minefields, and clearing them the old fashioned way is pretty noisy and tends to get people's attention.

Re:Of course the North Koreans....

[unixisc]

After a few missile attacks on Seoul, they can simply bomb those minefields and explode them that way, before sending in their tanks and infantry across. They still have the hardware from not just the Korean War, but they had been armed throughout the Cold War mainly by Beijing, so they should have no difficulties.

Re:Of course the North Koreans....

[gtall]

No one is paying attention to what Lil' Kim is saying (except you). The U.S. military watches for troop movements, equipment positioning, missile priming...you know, the things that actually count if you wish to start a war. If the Norks start that, the U.S. has already promised to ramp up.

Re:Of course the North Koreans....

[X0563511]

Yea, except the moment any number of troops start crossing the DMZ there will be hell to pay.

Re:Of course the North Koreans....

[rochrist]

While South Korea has hardware from, you know, this century.

It's not I folks: It's Jeremiah Cornelius... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

THIS is why he's doing it & proof of it, here -> http://interviews.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3585927&cid=43295193 when others pointed out Jeremiah Cornelius forgot to submit one of the "first post spams" masquerading as myself as AC, & mistakenly submitted one of the impersonations of myself as his registered 'luser' name here on /. forums.

Pretty pitiful actually, but like every up to no good idiot does? He screwed up & submitted it under his registered 'luser' name here.

* Jeremiah Cornelius: DO YOURSELF, and the rest of us, A GIANT FAVOR MAN: Seek professional psychiatric help!

(Since Jeremiah Cornelius obviously can't get over the fact he made a spelling error on what it is HE ALLEGEDLY DID FOR A LIVING? That's not MY fault... it's HIS!)

APK

P.S.=> I seriously must have dusted JC (in his mind @ least) for his BAD spelling error & it "got his goat"...

I.E.-> Catching what he claimed to do as a job, for YEARS he left "PENETRATION" (correct) spelled as "PENTRATION" (incorrect) on his resume on LinkedIn & I pointed it out as he & his friends trolled me as usual (webmistressrachel, gmhowell, & crew (probably ALL JC no doubt using alterate emails or TOR to do it as a possible - I've caught "them & theirs" doing it before, ala Barbara, not Barbie = TomHudson (same person))).

So THAT is what has gotten his goat in a technical debate & his "geek angst" could only come up with *trying* to "impersonate me" in every news thread on /. for the month of March 2013 so far!

(Just to attempt to 'discredit me' as a spammer here obviously)

Doing so, by posting that "$10,000 challenge" &/or reposts of my old posts on hosts file value to end users into EVERY SINGLE NEWS ARTICLE POSTED on /. ...

It's all I can think of that *might* cause such a mentally troubled 'reaction' like the Jeremiah Cornelius is doing & there's NO QUESTION he's the one doing this spamming of nearly every posted article masquerading as myself...!

... apk

Fighting the last war

[Anonymous Coward]

One of the biggest mistakes made in World War 2, was by the French, attempting to re-fight World War 1. They had a very well fortified, impenetrable line of fortresses and pill boxes, all made stronger by an underground set of tunnels with railways for resupply, hardened by concrete, steel and stone. The Germans marched around it and attacked through neutral Belgium. The wall was useless. In 1950-1953, North Korea attacked South Korea. They did well till the Americans intervened, and then got pushed back to nearly the Yalu river before China intervened on the side of the North, and the South then had to withdraw to the present 53rd parallel. I don't know why they just don't put up a very large, permanent wall between the North and South, and call it done, but I think the North is still trying to win. They have been on a war footing for 60 years. Its enabled the Kim family (Kim Il-sung, Kim Jong-il -son- and Kim Jong-un -grandson-) to establish a lineage military dictatorship. Its amazing to me how they can waste so many resources threatening and preparing, its as if all of North Korea is in a paranoid mental state, indoctrinated by a leadership bent on keeping them unaware and starving.

Solution to the problem

[kheldan]

Send Kim Jong Un a couple dozen pairs of real American Levi's, a a few cases of Hershey bars, a few cases of Coca Cola (the real sugar stuff in glass bottles, not the HFCS stuff), a lifetime subscription to Playboy magazine (translated into Korean of course), and some new games for his Xbox or PS3. He'll shut the hell up and we won't have to deal with North Korea for at least a few years.

engineers testing bot

[globaljustin]

The frequency and specificity of these 'apk' posts makes me think it is a 'beta' test of a next-level automatic comment bot.

It looks like it *may* be trying to 'optimize' the functions that automate actions like 'linking to other discussions' and 'responding by name to a critic in same thread'

These are things that usually give bots away easily.

The sheer volume of these 'apk' posts mean it has to be automated at some level.

Re:engineers testing bot

[tolkienfan]

Good point.

Strategy

[Anonymous Coward]

If you wanted to start a war, you don't go around announcing this stuff. You secretly attack. By now though, the whole world knows that they are really just bluffing and don't mean any harm. Plus, they know they have screwed up bad when their closest ally, China, has told them to calm down.

Great Strategy, Kim Jong Un!

Oh, wonderful.

[Millennium]

It seems to me that at this point, the South Koreans should be putting a number of "Asylum Centers" near the DMZ, where North Korean soldiers (and others, though soldiers would be the primary target audience) can turn in their weapons and cross into South Korea. Arm the centers heavily enough that they could provide cover fire for someone running from the North Korean border being shot at by his ex-comrades.

You could probably bleed off a significant portion of the North Korean military this way, with very little in the way of actual casualties for either side. Then again, I suspect that the majority of North Korean deaths in such a conflict wouldn't be in combat anyway, but from mass suicides when their Dear Marshal is brought down.

I know what's next

[slashmydots]

I believe next is a state of bombed followed by a state of crater. I think they've begun to believe their own lies about superior military and weaponry and all that crap. This would be the most one-sided war ever, assuming China doesn't jump to their side, which they absolutely will not.

LN

[Pharoah_69]

The USA should join the League of Nations.

Re:Surely they wouldn't start it unless they can w

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

People's Democratic-Republican Overlords

With the problem being "People's".

Armistice signed July 27, 1953

[DragonWriter]

no armistice was signed when the Korean War ended.

Presumably, you are trying to use a fancy word for "peace treaty" and failing, as an armistice was, in fact, signed by the belligerents on July 27, 1953, which established "complete cessation of all hostilities in Korea by all armed force".

Re:Armistice signed July 27, 1953

[Hognoxious]

Presumably, you are trying to use a fancy word for "peace treaty" and failing

That would indeed be a failure, they're not the same thing.

peace treaty > armistice > ceasefire.

Beginning you comment...

[Anonymous Coward]

In your subject is a bad way of establishing a natural flow for your readers. Especially if you start the comment with a capital letter.

U.S. & China should team up militarily

[Kevin Fishburne]

and annex DPRK, then the U.S. can leave it in Chinese hands for the foreseeable future. Everybody wins.

Re:U.S. & China should team up militarily

[Psyborgue]

I was just thinking this. As repressive as China is, it's paradise compared to NK.

Korean War Armistice Agreement

[DragonWriter]

FTFY there was never an armistice in Korea, just a cease fire.

An armistice (such as the Korean War Armistice Agreement) is essentially a cease-fire intended as permanent, usually because it foresees the negotiation of a final peace treaty or settlement during the resulting cessation of hostilities. So you didn't fix anything, just made it less precise.

I'm a Big Boy now!

[Tablizer]

"Daddy wouldn't let me do a real war, but now that he's gone to the Great Cannon in the Sky, I can now war!"

North Korea declares war....

[3vi1]

YES!!!! I cannot WAIT for the new M.A.S.H. series.

Re:1 million strong army!

[Billly Gates]

8 million in reserves too with tons of weapons and a zealotry of liberating their homeland from the emperial agressors with a united Korea will be difficult if not impossible to default without at least 250k of American troops to balance out.

Also the NK airforce can shell Soul at 1,000 rockets an hour an flatten the city right before a 2 million man march into it. South Korea would fall very quickly as 35,000 US troops and 100k South Korean troops would be overwhelmed FAST!

The north may not have high tech fighter jets but they do have large men with soldiers who are brainwashed and eager to fight for nationalist interests.

Just partisan stupidity

[Sycraft-fu]

Many hardcore lefties who have the tribal, partisan mentality of "My side good, other side bad," will keep blaming Bush for whatever is bad until there is another high enough profile Republican to blame, probably another president.

Same shit you see now from the righties. Obama has suddenly become the new favourite target for everything bad. Clinton was the favourite but now it is Obama. He's the newest, most powerful "other guy" so they dump all the bad shit at his feet.

Unfortunately, many humans are still very tribalistic and you see it in how they relate to politics. Their tribe, whatever they identify that as, are the good guys, the other tribe is the bad guys and thus all the bad things are the other guys fault.

Re:Just partisan stupidity

[Anonymous Coward]

A criticism of Bush is just tribalism? Wow, that's convenient. The criticism of Bush's ineptitude in handling North Korea is spot on. Bush screwed up. It's a fact. It was noted as being a foolish decision when Bush made it. If having an IQ with three digits makes one the other tribe then I guess your image may make sense. I suppose that saying the Iraq war was a huge mess that has ended with no benefit to the US in proportion to the cost is also just tribalism. I suppose that saying Obama's spending to get out of recession was poorly implemented and wasteful to the point where a proper implementation of stimulus is politically unlikely and we will pay the price with pain is also just tribalism. I suppose that saying Obama's health insurance legislation is going to be a brutal clusterfuck is also just tribalism. Me'um see'um great horseapple mountain.

The mouse that roared

[Anonymous Coward]

The NK government wants a partial war so that they can get US aid. They want the benefits of losing a war without actually losing. SOunds pretty smart to me.

Is anyone else thinking....

[BluPhenix316]

Come at me, Bro!

The slashdot editors apologize.

[quax]

As has been pointed out by numerous posters, the headling must have accidentally been truncated.

The original headline was "North Korea Declares a State of War, yet again".

Obviously /. high editorial standards would never allow for a misleading highly sensationalized headline.

The /. editors want to express their sincere regret for this most uncommon mistake.

Have you gone hungry before...

[Anonymous Coward]

I have and I get bloody angry at the slightest thing... when I'm undernourished hungry and scared... A normal reaction not only for North Korea but for any living being on this planet... really anywhere in this world. If anyone has been there they would understand a little more... Feed the people there first... then sit down and talk.

hang on

[fireylord]

What, exactly makes you think that the top generals surrounding Spud Junior aren't already in China's pocket?

Re:hang on

[rubycodez]

they haven't stuck a fork in the spud and baked him yet

boring

[stevencbrown]

message to NK - shit, or get off the pan...

What does North Korea have to lose?

[nebulus]

I can just see Kim Jong Un's supporting cast thinking... Lets get this thing over with - green light! Regardless of whether we win or lose it can't be worse than what we've gone through for the past 60 years.

State of War? Fantastic!

[bratwiz]

North Korea, State of War? Fantastic!

Can we shoot him now?

Re:State of War? Fantastic!

[quenda]

Can we shoot him now?

Both legally and practically, no.

What memo?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Korean "war" never ended. It has been ongoing since 1950

The Korean War never begun, officially, from the perspective of American law. Only congress is legally empowered under the US Constitution to declare war; it hasn't since about 1941.

If the Korean "war" (sic) never ended as you suggest, then World War I didn't end until 1945. This obviously was not the case.

Also, to call the Korean "War" ongoing is a stretch to put it mildly. Anyone still alive (and capable of speaking coherently at this remote point in time,) who fought in the Korean War can tell you when the war was on-going, it was a bit more than the occasional cross-border shooting, or rare bombing of some scarcely-inhabited island, an event that we see every few years. During the so-called war, that sort of thing was a near-daily occurrence. It's been tense and hostile, but by-and-large quiet since the armistice.

This is just more saber rattling, until troops actually try to cross the border. I almost hope they do, it is past-time we settled their collective rotten-cabbage-based hash. Although, I suspect WalMart might end up carrying a lot fewer things labeled "Made in China" in the long-run in any case. I would love for the Koreas reunited under Seoul, not Pyongyang, or Beijing, also a possibility depending on how things go!

"War is a Racket" by Major General Smedley Butler

[Paul Fernhout]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket
"War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small 'inside' group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes."

There are other reasons people make wars (including pride and political power) but the reasons the infrastructure is there to excess is profit-driven. Nothing like preparing for war or resupplying during or afterwards to boost the profits of certain companies. And then there are, sometimes, the profits to be made during the occupation and "reconstruction" phases.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_cost_of_the_Iraq_War

Estimates there range from about $1 trillion to $6 trillion. A company that can siphon off even just 0.1% of that has made at least a billion dollars. There are billions of dollars to be made destroying parts of North Korea and then pretending to fix them up again. And if the US can get into a huge cold war or lots of proxy wars with China, many companies could make stupendous profits for years.

See also:
    http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1220-28.htm
"There were Seymour Melman's op-eds and letters to the editor in the New York Times starting in his twenties. There were his cogent Congressional testimonies about the permanent war economy and its damage to our civilian economy and necessities of the American people. His economic conversion plans and his advocacy for a muscular peace agreement with the Soviet Union illuminated what kind of economy, innovation and prosperity could be ours in the U.S.A.
    Melman's work was detailed and he challenged what President Eisenhower called the "military-industrial complex" like that of no other academic. He would show how talented scientific and engineering skills were sucked into this permanent war economy to the detriment of civilian jobs and economic development as if people's well-being mattered. "To eliminate hunger in America = $4-5 billion = C-5A aircraft program," he would say, referring to Lockheed Martin's chronically bungled, defective and costly contract."

Cash it up, as he who strikes first...

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe they have finally learned the real English (it doesn't seem to be willing to change). It seems that in the real English dictionary the definition of peace is: period of cheating between two periods of war. It reminds me to another off-topic article I saw in Slashdot many years ago on a September 11. It was about two towers. Maybe in that real English dictionary tower=country... Besides, not much of an article for me, as I am in a similar situation, because a few months ago I was given, in person, a war declaration that still has not been cancelled. Not even remotely, which means that it can be "cashed" at any moment, especially with the crisis and all the grease created on purpose (sorry about my English).

Re: Surely they wouldn't start it unless they can

[Anonymous Coward]

Agree. And stop calling me Shirley.

Re:Surely they wouldn't start it unless they can w

[damas]

Why not end this once and for all? Go here and vote: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/negotiate-and-ensure-peace-korean-peninsula/4vjNhTBb

Re:Surely they wouldn't start it unless they can w

[Doctor_Jest]

They're REALLY hungry this year... the posturing is more blustering than usual...

Would Clinton send them some bags of UN Rice so that fat fucker will shut the hell up?

Nuke'm!

[Anonymous Coward]

"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."

Seriously, I hope NK continues along this moronic path and actually fires a missile at SK or the US. Then the door is open and NK should be hit with the biggest broadside in history. If NK used a nuke the response should be in kind and the targets should be both military and civilian. Taking out core infrastructure and then go for food and water, eliminating any ability to even marginally feed the people. Then go biological (anthrax for instance) and decimate the population even more. Top it off by supporting an invasion from SK aiming directly at toppling the government and joining the two Koreas under SK rule.

Then we've finally rid the world of the last remaining communist country.

And then we can turn our attention towards Cuba and Venezuela and start getting rid of the socialist plague there.

Re:Nuke'm!

[Anonymous Coward]

Then the door is open and NK should be hit with the biggest broadside in history. If NK used a nuke the response should be in kind and the targets should be both military and civilian. Taking out core infrastructure and then go for food and water, eliminating any ability to even marginally feed the people. Then go biological (anthrax for instance) and decimate the population even more.

Is your name Dr. Evil by any chance?
Why not just use one of your many doomsday devices?

what are they waiting for?

[Anonymous Coward]

NK leadership got no balls

dear crazy psycho

[Anonymous Coward]

if you want to get into a dick waving contest with the u.s... just remember who has the black president, and who has the fat asian in charge....

Strength of rhetoric is

[Martin S.]

The strength of his rhetoric is direct reflection of his weakness.

Nuke 'em, Duke

[Porchroof]

Problem with North Korea?
Nuke Pyongyang.
No problem.

Korean reunification?
Read above.

Now is the season for re-runs

[Anonymous Coward]

Seems like a remake of Leonard Wibberley's "The Mouse That Roared" and glorious leader is acting more like Prime Minister Count Rupert Mountjoy.

Obvious solution

[Anonymous Coward]

So many comments but everyone has missed the obvious solution here: we get David Hasselhoff to sing a song and send him in with Chuck Norris as backup. Sorted.

Looking back, Vietnam war really was stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

And it all turns out that all the (North) Vietnamese really wanted was for excessive foreign influence to GTFO. (French did a lot to wear out their welcome. U.S. probably wouldn't have been there if not for the French pleading for help combined with McCarthyism paranoia.) Communism was chosen at the time for the convenience it provided in getting the backing needed to do so. They only fought as hard as they did to be in control of their own country. It also shows considering how things went with their Chinese Communist "friends" in 1979 over a border dispute.

And it in the long run not much was lost. (Other than a waste of lives and resources.) Once left alone, hostilities ceased. And things turned out not so bad considering what the country desires in their current economic relationship with their former adversaries from the Vietnam War. For all it cost them, it appears they see that war mostly as a big stupid misunderstanding. However their independence in terms of being a soverign country is more than worth it.

Not even newsworthy

[MooseMiester]

This has been going on for decades...

If there was anything else in the news, it would be a non story...

to be self centered about this

[Anonymous Coward]

this is going to impact the cost of computer components

Something Truly Revolutionary

[kbx911]

If the NK Soldiers are going hungry, the USA should drop food packets all over NK wherever troops are positioned. Dropping food instead of dropping bombs would yield a better result.

Re:Something Truly Revolutionary

[Hognoxious]

Food, but also pr0n. And beer.

That's not true- ~30k casualties estimated

[coder111]

Hi,

That's not really true. If this study is true- and it is definitely more accurate than the North Korean "sea of fire" claims, there would be ~30k civilian casualties, or even as little as ~1k in best case. A war would still be horrible, but not as bad as North Korea claims.

http://us4.campaign-archive1.com/?u=0de7e0e84dc3aff619f936a70&id=c284fb3f9b&e=9d45c18d86

The actual war would be terrible, but the initial artillery barrage wouldn't be that bad all things considered. And the study doesn't say much about total casualties throughout the war.

--Coder

They will do anything to keep me from going there

[Optali]

Ha, I know what's happening: The South Koreans have paid this fat guy Kim Sick Ung (or however it's written) to scare me off and avoid an embarrassing defeat in the Daegu 10K race next April 14, becuase they know I will make them smell my farts.

Koreans of North and South alike, prepare to be PWND by the first ever Dutch racing team to land on your shores!!

Put the beer in the fridge, we are coming!

different perspective?

[Anonymous Coward]

I am not sure if anyone else has said this but there are Chinese people in Korea too that are probably sick of the North Korean situation. They might have some kind of influence in China. Of course this is just speculation.

Globalisation has been around for a while now...there are Chinese all over the world and many have lost their Chinese citizenship.

North Korean declaration of war

[Anonymous Coward]

They can't do that!! The Allies never signed a Peace Treaty so we have been at war since the 1950s. I am not sure what the correct term is but there has been an agreed cease fire in place all these years. This enable UN and other countries to assist with food aid etc.

Re:Surely they wouldn't start it unless they can w

[Anonymous Coward]

Right, because all that's required to change all of this confusion is for the President to call up Kim Jong Un and say, "Hey, why don't you come over for a beer?"

This is the problem with this petition system: "We, the People," are too dumb to understand that there are some people who have NO interest in "peace" and "stability," because "peace and stability" will spell the rapid end of their regimes.

Grow up - this petition basically says, "Light a prayer candle for peace!" Except it actually accomplishes LESS than lighting a prayer candle would.

Those weren't

[Anonymous Coward]

Ahem, those weren't girls...

Re:Surely they wouldn't start it unless they can w

[Anonymous Coward]

While some people in the weapon industry may have no interest in "peace" and "stability", I don't think peace and stability are any threat to Obama's regime ;-)