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North Korea Declares a State of War
paysonwelch writes "North Korea has declared a state of war against South Korea, stating that neither peace nor war has ended. Quoting the news release via Reuters: '1. From this moment, the north-south relations will be put at the state of war and all the issues arousing between the north and the south will be dealt with according to the wartime regulations.' The DPRK goes on to say that this will be a 'blitz' war and that they will regain control of the south, and destroy U.S. bases in the process."
Great line from the declaration: "[The U.S.] should clearly know that in the era of Marshal Kim Jong Un, the greatest-ever commander, all things are different from what they used to be in the past." A senior U.S. official called this statement "pot-banging and chest-thumping." The official said, "North Korea is in a mindset of war, but North Korea is not going to war."
I for one welcome our glorious new Democratic overlords.
The Korean "war" never ended. It has been ongoing since 1950
IIRC, North Korea has declared war on the South multiple times since the armistice. In short, it's nothing new.
NK has had particularly bad farm yields and has trouble feeding it's army - recently China returned 12 NK soldiers that tried to escape. In years past, this wouldn't have happened as NK was keen to always make sure the Army got food but rations were cut last year. It needs an increase in foreign aid to hold itself up. That's what all this sword rattling is about. I hope that everyone lets them drop.
You know you're seriously off the rails when you start provoking the planet's grand champions at killing people and breaking things and Russia and China are telling you to calm down.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
But China won't help you out this time.
I really think there is a chance that NK leadership has gone so bonkers they would actually try something like bombing SK. I doubt it would be effective unless they bring a nuke to the fight, but we're still talking about one of China's maybe-buddies. The USSR was scary, but they weren't so honking insane as these guys.
Hopefully, NK will just keep doing the "chest thumping" thing until they get tired. Or it's all just a bluff in the first place. I, personally, have had enough wars/actions/what-have-you for now. Too much death. Everyone (including the US) just chill and have a cup o' tea and a biscuit.
Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
Well China has recently voted in favor of sanctions against NK; previously they did not.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-21710919
Suddenly, Zergling rush!
My first program:
Hell Segmentation fault
North Korea is trying to blackmail the west once again. It worked in the 90's with Clinton and it worked in the 2000's with Bush, they make a big fuss and they get money to calm down. And the US media loves it too, they get to scare people and talk endlessly about it during a slow news cycle. Ratings up, win-win.
~~~Please pass the salt, I hate unsalted MD5s
Can someone explain to me what it is that gives such a small country that has comparably weak military (they are ranked number 28 in the world according to http://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-listing.asp) and pretty much zero chance of surviving a week in a real war the balls to be so dickish and war-hungry?
Are they really THAT brainwashed and misinformed (or uninformed) as to believe that they can just threaten nuclear war every time they don't get their way? It's like a little kid threatening to run away every time he has to eat his broccoli.
The only scary thing here is that sometimes, very rarely, the little kid DOES run away for an hour or so. Well, I hope for the sake of any innocent people in North Korea that this little boy doesn't run away, and instead learns to shut the fuck up and eat his broccoli.
Halitosis - (n.) Halle Berry's Camel Toe.
wars are not declared with photos of the president and a map behind him showing "squadrons of airplanes" attacking the US .. from N.Korea ( http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia-pacific/2013/03/2013328222926559483.html )
this is just a trick to pressure the west into giving hem MOARRR aid. none is stupid enough to destroy his own chain of power. There's only one case he must be "that stupid" : he's already agreed with the west ( recruited during the switzerland studies years ) to provoke an event from which the regime will collapse.
P.S. WILL THE FUCK SOMEONE DO ANYTHING WITH THIS MORONIC 10 PAGES LONG AUTOMATED POSTS BY BOTS? CAN'T JUST A MOD DELETE THEM ?
The Kaesong Industrial complex, a North/South industrial park, is apparently still open for business which means economic relations are undisturbed. Most news sources are highlighting this as a sign that the North isn't serious about the threats. If I were NK, though, I'd keep that puppy open as long as possible considering the new sanctions.
There has to be a growing group of North Koreans who are rolling there eyes every time this Tard opens his mouth nowadays... Tell me they're not going to put up with Lil Kim much longer. This is right out of Machiavelli's playbook. Lil Prince needs to keep his citizens occupied with a foreign 'conflict' to keep their collective attention away from strife at home.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
Since i live in South Korea, I base my concern level on the people around me, rather than western media.
Today all the girls were out in their 6 inch skirts, 10 inch heels, and all the guys were out following them around.
Seems to be just another day.
its about time we had a real good assthumping war
witha buncha people getting killed---its sick i know but it would maybe bring us out of this recession
are whole economy revolves around the military---use it or lose it
and besides THEY started it
Good luck with that. Their "US mainland strike plan" map shows straight lines rather than great circle routes. Either they are clueless, it's purely for show, or their missiles are going to fall a few thousand km short. Or some combination.
It seems to me that the North Korean leadership has just spent all of its rhetorical ammo. If the next thing out of Kim's mouth isn't a launch code and an authorization to launch a nuclear tipped missile he's just ruined his credibility. And North Korea does not even have a nuclear tipped missile.
This is very dangerous, because this means that at some time before the next time Kim wants to blackmail South Korea and the US he is going to have to use enough force that his threats will regain credibility. I don't think there will be a major war, but I think a minor exchange of fire, at least, is inevitable at some point in the not too distant future if Kim wants to stay in power.
I wonder what his generals and other top officials in Pyongyang are whispering to one another when he can't hear. I guess the time to stage a coup without looking like total traitors would be a couple of months after this blows over.
My personal theory is that they don't really have a nuke but a lot of people think they do and NK knows that so they're taking advantage of the situation to try to get something.
It's Schrodinger's war: neither peace nor war has ended
They're just threatening to open the box and have a look.
I know N. Korea has been in contact with Iran; is it possible Iran is paying N. Korea to act as a distraction, and help prevent the US from moving more assets into the Middle East?
I can see prices of Android tablets skyrocketing.
Apple must be behind all this.
China might get a bit miffed when the radioactive fallout drifts into their bread-basket region.
Little Kim Jong Un found his toy soldier collection and wants to play war.
If this were actually serious, they'd be bombed into the stone-age before they managed to actually do anything.
Oh, wait...
This won't end well.
If by not well you mean for the PRK, you're right. They won't get what they want this time (free food and other perks that they get every time they wag the dog). If you mean its going to end in some kind of fire fight, 100% wrong. You apparently are unaware of the history of this sick little state. I see they're building up Un like they did his father.
Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
I wonder what would happen if the US used a stealth bomber to drop a 500 lb. bag of candy on Kim's house, just to make the point that we can drop anything on him at any time. Just a reminder that he lives precisely as long as Obama chooses to allow. Maybe follow it up with dropping a few thousand teddy bears on major population centers.
This is not how you conduct a blitz.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
With all their current pollution, i doubt china would even notice.
http://interserver.net/
Yeah, I think that's what's going to be different this time. There are signs that China is getting tired of North Korea's crap.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
Now's a good time to rewatch Threads, and lament the possibility that these asshats might have nukes, and might somehow be insane enough to use them.
And not too sure which direction to turn the little handle.
There is a chance (small) that this idiot and his crew will provoke a major incident - like The Mouse That Roared...but with real blood and bodies.
And no q-bomb.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
In 1918 the Treaty of Versailles stated - not for the first time - that there is no such thing as an innocent civilian of a warlike state - they can be divided into those who acted to prevent, and those who complied. We are probably all citizens (or subjects in the case of monarchies) of post-revolutionary states. We should understand that a limited proportion of the blame for the actions of tyrants must fall upon those who did not act to stop them
I have been a user for about 10 years. This ends Feb 2014. The site's been ruined. I'm off. Dice, FU
So... during all this falderall, we get to see a lot of photos of Young Dear Leader surrounded by elderly men in military uniforms with ridiculously large hats, pointing dramatically this way and that. Occasionally you get a side view of Dear Leader and... all I can think of is MAN he's fat. Looks like close to 300 pounds. They try to disguise it with clothes and camera angles but there's no denying that he is a Big Boy. Maybe we should just send truckloads of Cinnabuns and wait for the inevitable?
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
You forgot one additional point: the North Korean government, while terrible, does keep order within its borders. If North Korea were to completely collapse, there would be a heavily armed, nuclear-capable, failed state with 20+ million starving people on the Korean Peninsula. Neither China, Russia, S. Korea, Japan, the U.S. or the world economy in general wants to be forced to deal with that outcome. Even without nukes or armed conflict, it would be a humanitarian disaster of historic proportions.
In effect, it's their last resort for blackmail: help us, or we'll burn our house down and make you clean up the mess.
Actually there isn't a big enough yawn to encompass the boredom I have with N. Korea's threats in the news. Wake me up when they decide to commit national suicide by actually doing something.
How we set aside our morals and learned to love the bomb
Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, religion destroys spirituality
You know perfectly well why communist (or other) dictatorships go to war. They're close to losing control over their own country, either because the population is rising up (unlikely here) or because they're out of resources because they've built a state system filled with people used to divert state resources to personal ends (very likely the case here).
This won't end well, as it will force China and the US into a confrontation when the cleanup happens.
they'd quietly kill of the movers and shakers in upper government and put in puppets, spent a few billion have a nice big colony next door. otherwise there is, after the smoke settles, real probability of U.S friendly ally right on their border
http://i.imgur.com/DnDVszZ.gif
Silence is a state of mime.
Obama isn't bending, so North Korea is losing face. The only thing they can do to regain face is a military victory. In the past this has involved attacking ships and shelling islands. Let's not kid ourselves, while a war with North Korea is unlikely, they still might kill people just up to the point where the US and SK would respond.
They're close to losing control over their own country, either because the population is rising up (unlikely here) or because they're out of resources because they've built a state system filled with people used to divert state resources to personal ends (very likely the case here).
This won't end well, as it will force China and the US into a confrontation when the cleanup happens.
I'm lost... Why are you calling the U.S. a communist dictatorship?
Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
Because the treaty of Versailles was a great achievement that brought an end to war in Europe forever and was universally seen as fair and just. /s
Sounds like you are describing the inverted dictatorship in EU, next year. And the US in the next 5.
They have a dictatorship of a Family. You have one of a Bank.
Big whooping difference.
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
You need help.
Wow, better think twice about who we're voting for then.
Obama isn't bending, so North Korea is losing face. The only thing they can do to regain face is a military victory. In the past this has involved attacking ships and shelling islands. Let's not kid ourselves, while a war with North Korea is unlikely, they still might kill people just up to the point where the US and SK would respond.
Saw an editorial yesterday that said what might be different this time is that Junior is inexperienced at how the game is played, and might think actually starting some sh*t is a good idea.
Millions of people stand to get killed - Seoul is targetted by a *huge* collection of conventional artillery - but if he thinks there's any outcome that won't leave him as a smoking hole in the ground, he's delu...
Uh-oh, the world's in trouble.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Meh...
North Korea began to piss of China almost just as much as it does with USA and South Korea.
Remember...China gets something out of South Korea with trade...North require aid and is constantly creates drama that threatens to destabilize the region.
I think I remember some officers being charged with trying to overtrhow the new kim-jung Un.... If it wasnt just paranoid purges....I'd bet the Chinese were behind it.
My -1 Troll is actually a +1 funny. And my -1 flame is actually a +1 insightfull.
OMG! Everybody! Run!
The great leader is an Apple Fanboy http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02522/north-korea-jong-m_2522857c.jpg
That should end this stupid war: move some of Apple production lines to the NK/SK frontier and let Kim brag about being the first to get an iWatch.
Funny, it could be him doing all those photoshops.
Imagine the US is winding down it's two cash cow wars; almost done with Iraq, and Afghanistan's end is in sight, if not in fact.
Imagine the USMIC without a constant flow of cash.
We'll be needing -- and having -- a new war. Just watch. NK could be very convenient for the USA. And if not NK, then someone else. But NK has all the characteristics we want: A smallish country, an easily defeated military, a huge population to keep us there fighting in the bushes for 5-10 years, no particular economic value to be concerned about, has been described as part of the mythical "axis of evil"...
Yep, I'm pretty sure I smell another uptick in USMIC stocks.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
NK has value of a buffer. Neither South Korea nor NATO who's bases it houses are friendly towards China. North Korea is near Chinese heartland.
This is the same issue as "holy shit, USSR has tactical nukes in Cuba" for USA. Only imagine if Cuba had land access to US mainland. And USSR put their best tanks and tactical bombers in there as well.
There will be a cold day in hell before China lets North Korea fall to the West.
So they have made these same threats many times before and that negates ANY threat?
Is it not a bit more concerning this time given that they NOW have a missile capable of hitting mainland US with a nuclear war head?
AND
What happened to the DEFCON system?
Should it not be changed given you have the above situation?
‘He who exercises no forethought but makes light of his opponents is sure to be captured by them.’
-Sun Tzu, The Art of War
By Adolf Hitler (who was a pretty bad commander, fortunately) and countless others. The sad thing is that apparently quite a few idiots in N Korea believe such things.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Kim Jong Un,
/.
You should focus on the war, and not post spam on
Because the treaty of Versailles was a great achievement that brought an end to war in Europe forever and was universally seen as fair and just. /s
One Allied general famously heard the terms and said, "That's not a peace treaty, that's a formula for a 20-year ceasefire."
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
What country creates people like you, who still think a nuclear war is a good idea? They have a serious problem with their education system.
USA and NK?
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Yes. This is all because the military dictatorship's tantrum isn't working this time, so it is trying what all spoiled brats do (spoiled by China of course): they scream even louder. Of course giving them a smack on the behind would end the annoyance right now and teach them discipline... but unfortunately it is too expensive an option, so better to just let them cry themselves to sleep.
-- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
A senior U.S. official called this statement "pot-banging and chest-thumping." The official said, "North Korea is in a mindset of war, but North Korea is not going to war."
This is going to be Marshall Kim's trump card. His troops can just walk into Seoul, while the US won't do a thing, b'cos they obviously don't believe that he's really going to war, regardless of all the missile tests that they've been launching.
Millions of people stand to get killed - Seoul is targetted by a *huge* collection of conventional artillery...
The incoming artillery would have maybe an hour or two to do its evil until silenced by B1s and South Korea's not insignificant anti-artillary resources. This fact is well understood by North Korea's planners. North Korea's only realistic mass murder option is nuclear, with the certainty of an immediate and overwhelming response, including from China which is no more comfortable than anyone else having a nuclear armed madman on its doorstep.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
There are leaders in every country that just love to justify military expense. How do we know that this is just a game that is being played between them so that all of the local populations will not question those expenses?
Send Kim Jong Un a couple dozen pairs of real American Levi's, a a few cases of Hershey bars, a few cases of Coca Cola (the real sugar stuff in glass bottles, not the HFCS stuff), a lifetime subscription to Playboy magazine (translated into Korean of course), and some new games for his Xbox or PS3. He'll shut the hell up and we won't have to deal with North Korea for at least a few years.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
The frequency and specificity of these 'apk' posts makes me think it is a 'beta' test of a next-level automatic comment bot.
It looks like it *may* be trying to 'optimize' the functions that automate actions like 'linking to other discussions' and 'responding by name to a critic in same thread'
These are things that usually give bots away easily.
The sheer volume of these 'apk' posts mean it has to be automated at some level.
Thank you Dave Raggett
Uh-oh, the world's in trouble.
Its foolish to believe that the PRK won't get squashed like a bug if it starts pulling a "James Homes", China is NOT INTERESTED in an out-of-control PRK. Calm down.
Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
It seems to me that at this point, the South Koreans should be putting a number of "Asylum Centers" near the DMZ, where North Korean soldiers (and others, though soldiers would be the primary target audience) can turn in their weapons and cross into South Korea. Arm the centers heavily enough that they could provide cover fire for someone running from the North Korean border being shot at by his ex-comrades.
You could probably bleed off a significant portion of the North Korean military this way, with very little in the way of actual casualties for either side. Then again, I suspect that the majority of North Korean deaths in such a conflict wouldn't be in combat anyway, but from mass suicides when their Dear Marshal is brought down.
I believe next is a state of bombed followed by a state of crater. I think they've begun to believe their own lies about superior military and weaponry and all that crap. This would be the most one-sided war ever, assuming China doesn't jump to their side, which they absolutely will not.
I'm calling bullshit. What possible (non-conspiracy theory related) reason could the US have for provoking a war with North Korea? What would we stand to gain? Obama has already been re-elected, the economy isn't doing great but also isn't awful, there's no oil involved, and the US public is already war-weary and has little stomach for another one.
I think the overwhelming majority of Americans just want NK to shut up and stop aggravating the situation...
The USA should join the League of Nations.
Actually, regimes with democratically elected leaders (including U.S. regimes in the 21st Century) going to war because the population is "rising up" against the current leaders (which, in a system where the regime can be replaced by an election, can just mean the current leadership dropping precipitously in the polls) and the leadership knows that war tends to produce a "rally-around-the-flag" effect is not at all unheard of.
Actually there was an attempted military coup in North Korea in November 2012 (Citation: http://intelnews.org/2013/03/15/01-1217/) . Looks like the Party can't trust the military anymore. Hence, we have North Korea declaring war (that they cannot possibly hope to win).
Strange the grandparent attributes the declaration of war to Us actions. The US were simply not letting North Korea get away with the same provocations they did in the past. After 60 years of bad behavior and criminal acts from North Korea the patience of the US and South Korea have finally run out. However Jeremiah Cornelius would like to ignore the kidnappings (of South Koreans and Japanese actresses), assassinations, murders, drug running, weapon proliferation, DMZ shootings and axe attacks, and brutal oppression of the NK people by the NK leadership. Instead Jeremiah continues his bankrupt crusade to demonize the US at every opportunity, by selectively choosing facts. Shame on you JC ! and your ilk.
People's Democratic-Republican Overlords
With the problem being "People's".
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
Presumably, you are trying to use a fancy word for "peace treaty" and failing, as an armistice was, in fact, signed by the belligerents on July 27, 1953, which established "complete cessation of all hostilities in Korea by all armed force".
We can always talk to China. They are a "most favored nation" in trade status, and we have reasonably good political ties. There's no reason this has to be a proxy war. We just need to spend 10 minutes with China and there won't be a problem.
Learn to love Alaska
Who's "Provocative Action"?
March 29 2013 - Hagel says U.S. has to take North Korean threats seriously
Umm... how is saying we're going to take a country's statements seriously, provocative?
And only our political failures will make this an issue. China wants a buffer zone, and not having to deal with all the refugees. If SK agreed to open borders with the north, and the US/UN/SK agreed to not put any weapons in NK, I would expect China to officially ally with the US/UN against NK. The problem is that we want to show as "strong" so we don't negotiate, we dictate. So we'll screw it up, insist we have the right to put a base in NK for "safety of South Korea", and China will not join us, and could end up starting a proxy war to gauge US military capability in the stealth-wars. It's our choice, but the leaders will pick something stupid then blame it all on the Chinese.
Learn to love Alaska
In two hours, NK could pretty well level Seoul. I think that's understood by both sides as well.
Learn to love Alaska
I heard a rumour that once upon a time, wars were started for even more specious reasons like - to liberate an oppressed and downtrodden populace, or EVEN to provide regional geo-political stability.
Imagine that!
Hej! Nasi tu byli!
In two hours, NK could pretty well level Seoul. I think that's understood by both sides as well.
That is complete bull that you pulled out of your ass. I do not think you bothered to take even a cursory look at the geography of Seoul. Damage, yes. Level with conventional artillery... not on God's green earth. Not without nukes, and that of course is the issue.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
and annex DPRK, then the U.S. can leave it in Chinese hands for the foreseeable future. Everybody wins.
Buy your next Linux PC at eightvirtues.com
An armistice (such as the Korean War Armistice Agreement) is essentially a cease-fire intended as permanent, usually because it foresees the negotiation of a final peace treaty or settlement during the resulting cessation of hostilities. So you didn't fix anything, just made it less precise.
"Daddy wouldn't let me do a real war, but now that he's gone to the Great Cannon in the Sky, I can now war!"
Table-ized A.I.
The real reason is not actual war - but draining of resources, in sustained and drawn-out game plan.
It is planting season, in N Korea. The army has traditionally been used like a CCC labor force to do this.
Now? They go on alert instead - and famine is ratcheted another notch...
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
There are thousands of pieces of artillery aimed south. They aren't going to randomly shell Seoul. They will have targets loaded, factories, hospitals, hotels, and other areas of economic activity and population concentrations. It wouldn't take that much to take out some high profile buildings. Yes, I have looked at the geography, I still think you are wrong. It's not unlike London in WWII (no sky scrapers there) and there was still lots of effect from bombing it. Yes, when it was all over, there would be a lot of individual buildings standing, but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't have significant damage in key areas.
Learn to love Alaska
Never.
Those were the cover-stories, to get parents to donate their children, instead of resist.
You HAVE been brainwashed.
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
I can't count the number of times I heard people say "You don't change leaders in the middle of a war." as a reason to vote Bush in for a second term.
By Vectron!
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
If SK agreed to open borders with the north, and the US/UN/SK agreed to not put any weapons in NK, I would expect China to officially ally with the US/UN against NK.
China would run the risk of a unified Korea, making a potential rival considerably stronger. I think they've already demonstrated over sixty years, that they don't want that happening.
YES!!!! I cannot WAIT for the new M.A.S.H. series.
8 million in reserves too with tons of weapons and a zealotry of liberating their homeland from the emperial agressors with a united Korea will be difficult if not impossible to default without at least 250k of American troops to balance out.
Also the NK airforce can shell Soul at 1,000 rockets an hour an flatten the city right before a 2 million man march into it. South Korea would fall very quickly as 35,000 US troops and 100k South Korean troops would be overwhelmed FAST!
The north may not have high tech fighter jets but they do have large men with soldiers who are brainwashed and eager to fight for nationalist interests.
http://saveie6.com/
Many hardcore lefties who have the tribal, partisan mentality of "My side good, other side bad," will keep blaming Bush for whatever is bad until there is another high enough profile Republican to blame, probably another president.
Same shit you see now from the righties. Obama has suddenly become the new favourite target for everything bad. Clinton was the favourite but now it is Obama. He's the newest, most powerful "other guy" so they dump all the bad shit at his feet.
Unfortunately, many humans are still very tribalistic and you see it in how they relate to politics. Their tribe, whatever they identify that as, are the good guys, the other tribe is the bad guys and thus all the bad things are the other guys fault.
Come at me, Bro!
This is not your fathers communist China.
I think that china got their priorities changed during the last sixty/fifty years(or at least changed the battleground).
My -1 Troll is actually a +1 funny. And my -1 flame is actually a +1 insightfull.
I think that china got their priorities changed during the last sixty/fifty years(or at least changed the battleground).
So what? They are still standing in the way of a Korean unification and I think they do so precisely because they still want a divided Korea.
As has been pointed out by numerous posters, the headling must have accidentally been truncated.
The original headline was "North Korea Declares a State of War, yet again".
Obviously /. high editorial standards would never allow for a misleading highly sensationalized headline.
The /. editors want to express their sincere regret for this most uncommon mistake.
And London wasn't flattened or even close to flattened. I should know I still have living relatives who were there during the blitz. Your hyperbole betrays your claims to know the facts. There's no reason for NK to start an intensive shelling campaign against SK; they'll give the US/SK an excuse to decimate NK positions 'in defence' and potentially even target their senior military figures without China having any cover to interfere.
NK will keep dicking around at the edges or it will go full in; there's no other option that makes sense (not that those do either mind). It seems the US and SK have finally decided that all the posturing really is a bark without a bite and are willing to ignore it now.
What, exactly makes you think that the top generals surrounding Spud Junior aren't already in China's pocket?
message to NK - shit, or get off the pan...
I can just see Kim Jong Un's supporting cast thinking... Lets get this thing over with - green light! Regardless of whether we win or lose it can't be worse than what we've gone through for the past 60 years.
The question was about "if there was a war". Your claim is that NK will not fire its artillery if it attacks or is attacked. That's simply silly.
Learn to love Alaska
Not even with Nukes. Even if they can detonate a 30kt weapon at ten thousand feet or so, the area inside blast radius would be a fraction of Seoul. and NK have at best a few nukes, with only one opportunity to deliver a weapon.
Also, the Seoul transit system is drilled deep into solid rock and is obviously intended as an air raid shelter.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
They don't care about a "new competitor." They are more concerned about a Cuban Missile Crisis situation (think of the US deployment in South Korea being on the Korea/China border, with nukes pointed at Beijing). We could be doing that now in SK, but NK gives the feel of a buffer.
Learn to love Alaska
They aren't standing in the way of reunification. They are just not pushing for it. They don't want a "divided Korea" They couldn't care less about Korea, other than wanting a nice military buffer between an aggressive and imperialist US Army and Beijing, which is not far from Korea. I have no doubt that if they were offered a complete disarmament of the Korean peninsula, in exchange for providing defense, as the US does for Japan, China would be willing to invade NK to put an end to their insanity. But the US believes China to be an enemy so much that I don't think anyone with the power to do it would consider it seriously enough to get an answer. After all, why use diplomacy when you can just kill people.
Learn to love Alaska
North Korea, State of War? Fantastic!
Can we shoot him now?
Not only that, but North Korea has nothing we could possibly want.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket
"War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small 'inside' group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes."
There are other reasons people make wars (including pride and political power) but the reasons the infrastructure is there to excess is profit-driven. Nothing like preparing for war or resupplying during or afterwards to boost the profits of certain companies. And then there are, sometimes, the profits to be made during the occupation and "reconstruction" phases.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_cost_of_the_Iraq_War
Estimates there range from about $1 trillion to $6 trillion. A company that can siphon off even just 0.1% of that has made at least a billion dollars. There are billions of dollars to be made destroying parts of North Korea and then pretending to fix them up again. And if the US can get into a huge cold war or lots of proxy wars with China, many companies could make stupendous profits for years.
See also:
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1220-28.htm
"There were Seymour Melman's op-eds and letters to the editor in the New York Times starting in his twenties. There were his cogent Congressional testimonies about the permanent war economy and its damage to our civilian economy and necessities of the American people. His economic conversion plans and his advocacy for a muscular peace agreement with the Soviet Union illuminated what kind of economy, innovation and prosperity could be ours in the U.S.A.
Melman's work was detailed and he challenged what President Eisenhower called the "military-industrial complex" like that of no other academic. He would show how talented scientific and engineering skills were sucked into this permanent war economy to the detriment of civilian jobs and economic development as if people's well-being mattered. "To eliminate hunger in America = $4-5 billion = C-5A aircraft program," he would say, referring to Lockheed Martin's chronically bungled, defective and costly contract."
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
I have no doubt that if they were offered a complete disarmament of the Korean peninsula, in exchange for providing defense, as the US does for Japan, China would be willing to invade NK to put an end to their insanity. But the US believes China to be an enemy so much that I don't think anyone with the power to do it would consider it seriously enough to get an answer.
I would have to side with the US government viewpoint here. It would be a hideous injustice to throw South Korea to the wolves. Let us keep in mind who supported North Korea for all these decades and how that turned out.
It may end up, with weakening US power that China ends up dominating the Korea peninsula anyway. But even in that case, I don't see them supporting unification. Presently, they have weak, militarily insignificant neighbors. A unified Korea could become a problem down the road, say a seed for anti-Chinese dissatisfaction among China's neighbors.
A standard empire building tactic is divide and conquer. I don't think it's wise to hope that they don't develop a habit for empire.
The U.S. Marine Corps could easily perform an amphibious invasion onto China from several existing bases in that region, and with the assistance of several nuclear submarines could even start that action largely undetected with quite a few people already on the ground preparing such an invasion at any time before the Chinese military could react.
Seriously, the notion of a buffer zone is a silly and outdated notion, and North Korea is increasingly slipping into the backwater of insignificance on the global stage. The kind of bluster that they are making right now even shows how insignificant they have become.
Tuvalu and Niue are just as much of a buffer against "American imperial aggression" as North Korea and cost China a whole lot less in terms of foreign aid. Even the North Korean form of Communism is laughable in China. About the only thing that keeps China from completely pulling the plug is that North Korea represents a way to continue to tweak the nose of America from time to time for laughs and giggles, thus plays well for domestic (to China) public relations efforts.
America can easily afford to go to war against China.... and certainly could take care of North Korea without a second thought.
You are correct though about how much it would cost to bring North Korea into the 21st Century though.... which might be a good thing for China as well. South Korea would be so self-absorbed by trying to "fix" North Korea that they wouldn't even remotely be concerned about anything else for well over a century and might even be friendlier to China in the long run.
Does it bother you?
I can't count the number of times I heard people say "You don't change leaders in the middle of a war." as a reason to vote Bush in for a second term.
You really believe that was the reason Bush was re-elected for his 2nd term? There might have been some old farts and a few fringe people saying stuff like that, but it wasn't even a major campaign discussion point.... other than simply showing "his record" in how he was "acting presidential" during his first term.
I certainly doubt if you asked many of those who actually cast a vote for Bush on his 2nd term that their response for why they did that was to "keep from changing leaders during a war".
Hell, most Americans hardly even noticed or even still notice that America is even at war with anybody or that its soldiers are in harms way... except for perhaps the few that have close friends serving in Afghanistan or Iraq. Even then it seems very distant and completely unrelated at all to current events or even dealing with ordinary life in America. It sure isn't like the huge domestic sacrifices that were made during World War I and World War II.
North Korea doesn't have enough resources for a sustained military campaign. They're short on everything from fuel to spare parts and even ammunition. Moreover, their equipment is mostly antique and obsolete and they're not able to replace losses. If they do attack, the US and South Korea should seize upon the opportunity to wreck as much of their military equipment as possible, as we did with the Iraqi army in Gulf War I, so as to limit their future offensive capabilities and degrade their military effectiveness. I'm not suggesting that the US or South Korea shoot first, but if the North Attacks the US and South Korea should ensure that they pay for it.
I would have to side with the US government viewpoint here. It would be a hideous injustice to throw South Korea to the wolves. Let us keep in mind who supported North Korea for all these decades and how that turned out.
Please explain how anything in my suggestion was throwing them to the wolves. I think your emotion is getting the better of you, you are so anti-china biased you aren't even listening to anything.
Learn to love Alaska
China has been cutting support as the US cut support, and has supported the US lead sanctions. China liked the idea of a communist neighbor, but NK isn't communist. A single dictator owning everything who heads the government is technically communism (the government owns everything), but isn't communism is spirit, where the people own everything. Fascism and communism are almost the same thing, the difference is only in the route there.
That and China is not communist anymore. It's capitalist (globally) and communist (locally) and that distinction wasn't defined previously because, aside from oil, communist countries have never been strong exporters.
Learn to love Alaska
Yeah, except for the fact that when we IDed a number of bank accounts, China refused to freeze them. So, they agreed with the UN, BUT they have ZERO intentions of keeping their word. That is no different than what they have done for the last 50 years.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
How do we know that this is just a game that is being played between them so that all of the local populations will not question those expenses?
Military expenses can be cut, just like other government expenses, but think of the cost if you're wrong. Whatever problems you have under your current government would intensify a hundred fold if your nation was conquered and occupied by a foreign army. When weighed against those tremendously costly consequences, a military capable of providing a credible defense is definitely worth funding.
Perhaps the North Korean Ender Wiggins has graduated from battle school and is now ready...
Looks a bit more like Ralph Wiggins to me..
..Mullah or Pope, Preacher or Poet, who was it wrote: "Give any one species too much rope and they'll fuck it up"?
And get thrown back into the sea within days because of lack of resupply and ground support. There is a reason why every before single invasion US has performed so far, ground based supply lines were painstakingly negotiated. And that was against countries that didn't actually have a capability to completely cut off any beachhead from resupply. Chinese have such capability in droves, all it takes is a one small fast low profile missile/torpedo interceptor boat to sink several supply ships. And China has those in thousands.
And regardless, as was shown with cold war, you need a beheading strike capability before engaging a nation with strategic nuclear weapons. That means as many functional access paths to nations capital and military bases. You're not going to be capturing those from marine beachheads - their artillery alone will ensure that no beach head can be established in reasonable range.
Why not end this once and for all? Go here and vote: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/negotiate-and-ensure-peace-korean-peninsula/4vjNhTBb
A U.S. invasion of China would likely happen through Russia anyway, both because you would need another major power as a substantial ally and also because that would give you the necessary ground support you are talking about.
Besides, what is there in China that America wants? It doesn't need workers as Mexico already provides that (in terms of low-skilled workers to fill in at the bottom of the economic ladder) and America has plenty of land available to do whatever it wants. More to the point, there isn't any reason for America to really go into China.
North Korea isn't needed as a buffer, which is the point I was making. That may have been useful when Chairman Mao was still running China and the Cold War was still going on, but circumstances and technology have made that sort of a moot issue.
Assuming that America was foolish enough to mount a ground invasion of China, it would also not hesitate to involve nuclear weapons as well and risk the consequences of such an act. As such, everything you might think about in terms of such invasions would have larger consequences and would be very different from other kinds of military engagements that have happened in the past. There have been all sorts of theories about how nuclear weapons might be used in a combined arms situation where nuclear weapons are one of the aspects of that action, but so far nobody has actually put such weapons into practice with the exception of the end of World War II. Even then, the nuclear weapons were merely alternatives to things like the carpet bombing and fire bombs, where the incendiary raid on Tokyo (much less Dresden) was far more destructive than the nukes were. Modern nuclear weapons simply haven't been used and experience in the Cold War means nothing as they were never used except for political purposes. They certainly have never been used by a general who might take advantage of those weapons.... or fail miserably like the artillery barrages that happened in World War I.
They're REALLY hungry this year... the posturing is more blustering than usual...
Would Clinton send them some bags of UN Rice so that fat fucker will shut the hell up?
It's the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man.
One nuke detonated over South Korea and .............. It will be forever until I get the next software update for my Nexus 4.
* Carthago Delenda Est *
If I could mod this +1 Insightful, I would. I hadn't thought of it like that, but I guess that's possible. Not saying I believe that's what's happening, but it's possible.
You're thinking in terms of current strategic situation. Country-toppling is long term strategic issue. China is clearly headed for a strategic alliance with Russia (as shown with state visits of new government) and on a direct collision course with NATO in some decade or two. At this point, small scale territorial conflicts between giants will become feasible, in the style of Sino-Soviet conflict. NATO will likely do what it always did, use a proxy through which war will be fought. South Korea makes for one of the best candidates here, and as a result, importance of North Korea keeping it in check and buffering it from mainland China is of paramount long term strategic importance.
The fact that NK also functions as an exceptional drain on NATO forces in the region on constant basis is a short term strategic cherry on top of the long term pie.
The cost of going to war against China would be the loss of most of the Asian continent and North American continent to nuclear, biological and chemical WMDs. I'm quite certain that US cannot afford such a cost.
Even without this option, China is the most populous nation on the planet. And while its military isn't all that modern (yet), it's using tried and true russian tech, much of which is being or has been recently modernised. This is not going to be Iraq/Afghanistan where a nation massively crippled by sanctions for decades has to fight a far technologically and numerically superior enemy. This will be a nation with moderate technological inferiority and significant numerical superiority that has enjoyed an unprecedented boom and supplies much of materials necessary for its opponent to fight the war in the first place.
It's not a war you can win. Even a victory would likely be a phyrric one, nuclear weapons or not.
NATO's classic long term strategy is to encircle its strategic enemies. This was done with USSR, and this is being done with China. There will be an equally cold day in hell when USA will pull out of South Korea with importance of China's encirclement increasing rapidly in near future.
The strength of his rhetoric is direct reflection of his weakness.
Problem with North Korea?
Nuke Pyongyang.
No problem.
Korean reunification?
Read above.
Fata viam invenient.
Actually the South Koreans reckon they are quite close to a deal with China
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/29/wikileaks-cables-china-reunified-korea
In highly sensitive discussions in February this year, the-then South Korean vice-foreign minister, Chun Yung-woo, told a US ambassador, Kathleen Stephens, that younger generation Chinese Communist party leaders no longer regarded North Korea as a useful or reliable ally and would not risk renewed armed conflict on the peninsula, according to a secret cable to Washington.
Chun, who has since been appointed national security adviser to South Korea's president, said North Korea had already collapsed economically.
Political collapse would ensue once Kim Jong-il died, despite the dictator's efforts to obtain Chinese help and to secure the succession for his son, Kim Jong-un.
"Citing private conversations during previous sessions of the six-party talks , Chun claimed [the two high-level officials] believed Korea should be unified under ROK [South Korea] control," Stephens reported.
"The two officials, Chun said, were ready to 'face the new reality' that the DPRK [North Korea] now had little value to China as a buffer state - a view that, since North Korea's first nuclear test in 2006, had reportedly gained traction among senior PRC [People's Republic of China] leaders. Chun argued that in the event of a North Korean collapse, China would clearly 'not welcome' any US military presence north of the DMZ [demilitarised zone]. Again citing his conversations with [the officials], Chun said the PRC would be comfortable with a reunified Korea controlled by Seoul and anchored to the US in a 'benign alliance' - as long as Korea was not hostile towards China. Tremendous trade and labour-export opportunities for Chinese companies, Chun said, would also help 'salve' PRC concerns about . a reunified Korea.
"Chun dismissed the prospect of a possible PRC military intervention in the event of a DPRK collapse, noting that China's strategic economic interests now lie with the United States, Japan and South Korea - not North Korea."
Chun told Stephens China was unable to persuade Pyongyang to change its self-defeating policies - Beijing had "much less influence than most people believe" - and lacked the will to enforce its views.
A senior Chinese official, speaking off the record, also said China's influence with the North was frequently overestimated. But Chinese public opinion was increasingly critical of the North's behaviour, the official said, and that was reflected in changed government thinking.
Previously hidden tensions between Pyongyang and its only ally were also exposed by China's then vice-foreign minister in a meeting in April 2009 with a US embassy official after North Korea blasted a three-stage rocket over Japan into the Pacific. Pyongyang said its purpose was to send a satellite into orbit but the US, South Korea and Japan saw the launch as a test of long-range missile technology.
Discussing how to tackle the issue with the charge d'affaires at the Beijing embassy, He Yafei observed that "North Korea wanted to engage directly with the United States and was therefore acting like a 'spoiled child' in order to get the attention of the 'adult'. China encouraged the United States, 'after some time', to start to re-engage the DPRK," according to the diplomatic cable sent to Washington.
You could imagine a deal where US forces stay south of the DMZ to keep the Chinese happy. So South Korean forces would need to occupy the North.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
If they do attack, the US and South Korea should seize upon the opportunity to wreck as much of their military equipment as possible, as we did with the Iraqi army in Gulf War I, so as to limit their future offensive capabilities and degrade their military effectiveness.
I think if an actual shooting war breaks out the South Koreans would be forced to invade North Korea to destroy the artillery they have in range of Seoul. I.e. it would be more Gulf War II - regime change at all costs than Gulf War I.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
Why are we imposing sanctions on North Korea at all? The fact that they oppress their own people is not particularly different than many US allies or at least states we do business with and have bases in. Sure, I want North Korea to follow the East Germany model and get absorbed by South Korea. But sanctions seem like a stupid and ineffective way to do it. All it is doing is causing North Koreans to become really good at smuggling and running drugs to get foreign currency. And rightly they see trade sanctions as an act of war.
It would frustrate the hell out of china if we embraced trade with North Korea and opened up relations, especially with a view to unification.
Please explain how anything in my suggestion was throwing them to the wolves.
Here's what you wrote and what I quoted:
I have no doubt that if they were offered a complete disarmament of the Korean peninsula, in exchange for providing defense, as the US does for Japan, China would be willing to invade NK to put an end to their insanity.
That's throwing both Koreas to the wolves. First, the US would be dismantling the only counterweight to Chinese military power in the region and simultaneously allowing that power to be extended throughout the Korea peninsula. Second, it'd be explicit approval of Chinese annexation of North Korea.
I'd also wager that the US would lose in short order both Japan and Taiwan to China's sphere of influence after such an action. Not because China would do anything special to court or coerce them, but merely because the US could no longer be relied on to protect them against Chinese power.
Further, the precedent of allowing China to take over North Korea militarily would probably encourage them in further such military adventures say with Indochina as well as implicit approval of similar past Chinese military actions, particularly the annexation of Tibet.
Finally, the current state of affairs strengthens the Chinese factions that favors economic power over military power. Allowing the Chinese military such a victory shifts power to them, especially when coupled with the above defections and military opportunities. More Chinese decisions will then be made on a military basis than on an economic one. I think that will result in a lot of trouble and a far more warlike empire down the road.
This has been going on for decades...
If there was anything else in the news, it would be a non story...
Murphy was an optimist
That's throwing both Koreas to the wolves. First, the US would be dismantling the only counterweight to Chinese military power in the region and simultaneously allowing that power to be extended throughout the Korea peninsula. Second, it'd be explicit approval of Chinese annexation of North Korea.
And has no negative effects on South Korea, so I don't see it as throwing South Korea to the wolves. I don't recall if I said it near that statement, but I've said multiple times that a condition of China rule is an open border between NK and SK if administered separately. If someone lived in NK and didn't like it, they could move to SK. Again, I don't see how any of that throws someone in Seoul "to the wolves" when NK is no longer at war with them and has no weapons pointed at them. Seems like an improvement.
The rest isn't an issue with Korea, but your anti-China bias showing when any "deal" with them is the same as flying to Lhasa and shooting a Tibetan in the head. I'm too rational and well informed to fall for that.
Learn to love Alaska
I think there are a large number of solutions that China and South Korea would agree to, but the USA would interfere with anything that doesn't leave them with a large military presence on the peninsula. China would be happy with a demilitarized, unified Korea under SK rule, but it likely uncomfortable with a SK control of NK with no influence, leaving SK free to sell bases on China's border to the USA, which the US would try to guild SK into for defending them for all these years.
Learn to love Alaska
If a reunified Korea asked US forces to leave they'd do so. Just like they did in Saudi Arabia.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
Hi,
That's not really true. If this study is true- and it is definitely more accurate than the North Korean "sea of fire" claims, there would be ~30k civilian casualties, or even as little as ~1k in best case. A war would still be horrible, but not as bad as North Korea claims.
http://us4.campaign-archive1.com/?u=0de7e0e84dc3aff619f936a70&id=c284fb3f9b&e=9d45c18d86
The actual war would be terrible, but the initial artillery barrage wouldn't be that bad all things considered. And the study doesn't say much about total casualties throughout the war.
--Coder
Ha, I know what's happening: The South Koreans have paid this fat guy Kim Sick Ung (or however it's written) to scare me off and avoid an embarrassing defeat in the Daegu 10K race next April 14, becuase they know I will make them smell my farts.
Koreans of North and South alike, prepare to be PWND by the first ever Dutch racing team to land on your shores!!
Put the beer in the fridge, we are coming!
-- 29A the number of the Beast
And has no negative effects on South Korea,
Aside from now being forced to follow the direction of the leaders of China.
If someone lived in NK and didn't like it, they could move to SK.
Unless they were prohibited from doing so by China which now controls the region. See where I'm going with this?
but your anti-China bias showing
Why shouldn't I have anti-China bias? We're not speaking of a mostly honest government like Switzerland. If we give them a free gift of power, then they will take it. That's just what'll happen.
. See where I'm going with this?
Yeah, you are hearing a proposal with conditions, then picking and choosing the conditions you think are good are not followed, and the conditions that are bad are not followed, then somehow asserting your inconsistency as a fault of the proposal. I see exactly where you are going with this.
Why shouldn't I have anti-China bias?
China has been historically very anti-imperialist. Nearly every war they've ever been involved in was started by someone else attacking them.
I know you whine about then needing to get out of Tibet and such. Sure, right after England exists Scotland and Ireland. Nearly every country has an area they annexed at some point. Tibetans considered themselves Chinese, just not Han, so a "unified China" should include them. At least the Chinese haven't gone after Malasia or Singapore (ethnically very Chinese).
I still don't get why you fear and hate them. Is there some reason, or is it just another irrational racial/nationalistic bias?
Learn to love Alaska
Duh, Obama?
Stop.
Stop feeding APK.
Ignore APK; it will go away.
replying to the blasts only serves to feed its dependence.
Apply discipline and resist the urge to respond...
end-of-line
Food, but also pr0n. And beer.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Something one should remember when disseminating such information: source is an interested party.
Remember the Iraqi in exile who told USA leadership that they would be welcomed as liberators in Iraq?