Windows: Not Doomed Yet

Shrug... by MightyMartian · 2013-04-19 07:24 · Score: 5, Insightful

Of course Microsoft isn't doomed, and neither is Windows. In the enterprise world, Exchange-Office will still dominate for many years to come.

The problem is on the consumer end, where Windows is heading quickly to irrelevance.

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The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.

Re:Shrug... by Mashiki · 2013-04-19 07:28 · Score: 3, Insightful

I kinda remember similar stories of MS and all that being posted on /. back in '00. Didn't seem to happen then either, but MS does need to get it's head out of it's ass and actually listen to what consumers want. They seem to be suffering from the "Big3" mentality of the 70's, where in the auto industry they simply stated: "Consumers will drive what we tell them to drive, and love it." Of course that was pretty damn close to the collapse of the entire North American auto industry, and imports took off.

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Om, nomnomnom...
Re:Shrug... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 07:30 · Score: 0

And years from now (maybe 10 or so) when all the kids using non-Windows/Microsoft devices enter the work force and demand that Microsoft go away to make room for their preferred work devices...then Microsoft will fade into the realm of the IBM's and such.
I work in a school district and I see it happening here already. They will be raised on and taught non-Microsoft which will influence their choices later on as well.
Re:Shrug... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 07:35 · Score: 0

With BYOD even MS Office use will start shrinking significantly
Re:Shrug... by _Shad0w_ · 2013-04-19 07:36 · Score: 4, Insightful

I wouldn't mind fading in to a business which made $16 billion profit last year and still employs over half-a-million people.

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Yeah, I had a sig once; I got bored of it.
Re:Shrug... by postbigbang · 2013-04-19 07:38 · Score: 5, Insightful

This is all the result of some pageview whores looking to stir up some hits in an otherwise pretty dull period. Yeah, people are buying tablets and smartphones. No doubt about it. Not buying Windows 8 because they're not strongly compelled.
So, they do the death watch, change the CEO trick, pile on the the horrible histories, bring up the traditional rivalries, and rake the muck.
That's you, ZDNet. You listening? Gonna put on the fishnet stockings and red lipstick again? You can do the same thing on Slashdot just by dissing all or any of the Sacred Cows here. The Google Ad revenues must have been stupendous.
Nothing to see here. Move along.

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---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
Re:Shrug... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 07:42 · Score: 0

There will be no BYOD in my shop! You'll use what we give you and like it or find employment else where.
Actually I was told by my boss (who is not in IT) that I can't just hook up what ever I want to the network. Paranoia over security and sensitive data will always trump BYOD.
Re:Shrug... by phantomfive · 2013-04-19 07:42 · Score: 5, Insightful

As long as Microsoft has the strongest commitment to backwards compatibility, they'll retain their market position.

Most people don't care about the operating system, they just use it to launch their apps. Businesses don't want to rewrite all their custom software just because they are upgrading to a new OS. Microsoft revenue is still going up.

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"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Re:Shrug... by Penguinisto · 2013-04-19 07:48 · Score: 1

...not to mention with average salaries that the typical MCSE/MCSA can only dream about...

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Re:Shrug... by Pino+Grigio · 2013-04-19 07:49 · Score: 1

+1, insightful.
Re:Shrug... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 07:50 · Score: 0

In the enterprise world, Exchange-Office will still dominate for many years to come.
Correction: The Exchange-Office protocols and formats will still dominate for many years to come.
The way things are headed, we'll have plausible FOSS replacements for Exchange and Office for the enterprise within the next 5 years.
And for less demanding environments, we already have plausible FOSS replacements for them today.
Re:Shrug... by spire3661 · 2013-04-19 07:52 · Score: 1

Its not a 'death watch', its a 'how far can MS deflate' watch. A huge part of Microsofts success is owed to a strength they no longer possess.

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Good-bye
Re:Shrug... by NatasRevol · 2013-04-19 07:56 · Score: 1

Which was their second lowest profit in the last 5 years.
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/msft/financials

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There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
Re:Shrug... by postbigbang · 2013-04-19 07:56 · Score: 2

Right.
What part of Windows is Dying, Click Here! did you miss?

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---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
Re:Shrug... by hairyfeet · 2013-04-19 07:58 · Score: 1

I wouldn't even say that as most of my customers are simply following the lead of the businesses and sticking with Windows 7 that works great.
As for how to save the company? Simple, break it up. you have too many PHB trying to jam products that don't go together into mashups, see slapping office on their tablets as a selling point (like you are really gonna care about office on a touchscreen?) and this is seriously holding the company back. The company would be better off if the mobile and business divisions could do their own things without having to worry about "vertical integration" and the OS division would be better off if they could listen to the customers instead of being shoehorned into devices where it just doesn't fit well.
Right now there is just too many marketing droids playing buzzword bingo there and not enough thought put into whether tie ins make sense or not, Split the company into business, mobile, desktop operating systems and entertainment and the ONLY integration should be a "it just works" mantra so that each product can work easily with the others but can still concentrate on giving their customers what they want.

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ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
Re:Shrug... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:01 · Score: 0

when all the kids using non-Windows/Microsoft devices enter the work force and demand that Microsoft go away
Their managers will tell them to shut the fuck up and do their job or they will be replaced by someone who will. They will use Windows/Microsoft devices or they will be unemployed while their positions are filled by people who will do the job, moved over-seas, or are filled by H1Bs.
Re:Shrug... by nine-times · 2013-04-19 08:04 · Score: 1

As long as Microsoft has the strongest commitment to backwards compatibility, they'll retain their market position.

Yes, they'll retain their position in that market, but but maybe the question is "how small will that market shrink?"
Re:Shrug... by Opportunist · 2013-04-19 08:07 · Score: 2

BYOD will not really work out. And that's not even the ITSEC guy in me talking (who starts twitching at the mere thought of people hooking their virus-ridden, spam-slugging crapfests of consumer grade hardware to my network). Even though I'd say every CISO not fighting a harebrained idea like that tooth and nail deserves sitting on the ejector seat this will put him on.
You will end up with the most heterogeneous network possible. Which is absolutely fabulous if you're developing software and want to check out that it runs on every piece of crap that may someone dig up some hole somewhere, but about the worst nightmare for your IT department in every other situation. There will always be that one machine (and usually not only one) that doesn't work. Usually it just refuses to run some piece of custom software, but even what you consider standard in your company and what is a standard may not work. You'll have different versions of software, all possible (and even deemed impossible) combinations of hardware and let's not even get into the big question whether everything used is licensed properly. And yes, even if you're not the owner of a device that's using an illegal copy, allowing someone to use such a thing for the benefit of your company may well put you in hot water.

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We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Re:Shrug... by DuckDodgers · 2013-04-19 08:14 · Score: 2

1. Windows RT on ARM doesn't have backwards compatibility with x86, and that's the flagship product that launched with Windows 8 (the "Microsoft Surface RT").
2. Windows Mobile applications weren't compatible with Windows Phone 7, and Windows Phone 7 applications run in emulated mode on Windows Phone 8 but Microsoft is encouraging developers to rewrite them to be native for Windows Phone 8.
3. Internet Explorer 9 and 10 attempt to be standards-compliant, which is a massive break from IE6 and IE7.
4. Silverlight is not getting new releases and ends support in 2021 (granted that's 8 years away, but if you're a developer that invested time in it, that's disappointing).

I don't think Microsoft is on a death spiral, at least not yet. But their claim to backwards compatibility is weaker today than it was four years ago.

More importantly, I think many of the "killer apps" of the modern day are independent of operating system: Facebook. Twitter. Google Maps. Cut the Rope. Angry Birds. MineCraft. Farmville.

Exchange, ActiveDirectory, and especially Office will keep Microsoft strong for a very long time. But I think their grip on consumers will only weaken further.
Re:Shrug... by pnutjam · 2013-04-19 08:23 · Score: 1

It's not paranoia to realize that an unmanaged network of computers is a disaster waiting to happen.

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Cheap storage VM.
Re:Shrug... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:30 · Score: 0

Its not a 'death watch', its a 'how far can MS deflate' watch. A huge part of Microsofts success is owed to a strength they no longer possess.
We keep saying this, here, and have for a long while. But MS just posted surprisingly strong results, again.
Re:Shrug... by JSombra · 2013-04-19 08:31 · Score: 1

Microsoft's problem is not their developers or engineers, it's their management and the internal politics they play
For example, forced metro on the desktop (and server ffs) was very obviously a management (most likely sales) decision (hell beta versions had the option to turn it off in the registry, until everyone found out about that and MS removed it). No developer in their right mind would have forced on users something like, especially in the first version of the interface. It reaks of the "bright idea" of some sales guy who's most advanced use of IT is powerpoint presentation he got his PA to do for him. And there are countless other less obvious examples of this thinking
MS really needs to get another IT guy with some business sense back in charge and get rid of Ballmer the sales guy
But in the meantime is MS going anywhere? No a chance as for their business customers there really is no viable alternative. Apple have no real interest in catering for the business customers needs and linux does not have a big enough support infrastructure nor enough off the shelf software for the users. And lets not get into rewriting all the in house stuff for a different OS
Re:Shrug... by TheGoodNamesWereGone · 2013-04-19 08:42 · Score: 1

The problem is on the consumer end, where Windows is heading quickly to irrelevance.
WH8 needs to lose Metro. I don't know a *single* business that's hankering to install it. Its only adoption will be by consheepmers.
Re:Shrug... by LDAPMAN · 2013-04-19 09:22 · Score: 1

Hang on to that fantasy. It's happening. In my consulting work it comes up constantly. I haven't been in an organization, even security focused ones, in over 4 years that not exploring the idea. Many are actively moving forward. I.T. will be changing to deal with it.
Re:Shrug... by Alex+Belits · 2013-04-19 09:31 · Score: 0

hairyfeet is at his usual stuff again, presenting Microsoft as something healthy.
Microsoft products can't survive on their own. There is nothing good about them, they just depend on each other, so it's easy for a user to catch the disease and hard to get rid of it.By themselves, they are at best mediocre and have no hope for interoperability with anything other than themselves.
Microsoft management realizes that, and this is why they will keep clutching at this strategy until they will decide to wind down the company as the alternative to full collapse. And they don't expect the collapse right now.

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Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
Re:Shrug... by je+ne+sais+quoi · 2013-04-19 10:09 · Score: 2

More importantly, I think many of the "killer apps" of the modern day are independent of operating system:

This is important. The slashdot crowd can talk about how you can't run most apps on a tablet, but a lot of these apps you just mentioned are made for tablets. No one doubts that MS will maintain a strong presence in the corporate world for a long time, but increasingly people aren't computing with PCs any more, they're using mobile devices. In any case, even in the corporate world, people are losing interest in MS. I do get e-mails about training for ipad users, I have yet to get one for Win8. In fact, IT has banned win8 from its computers thus far.

If you head over to statcounter and add up the iOS plus OS X versus all the windows flavors, you find that the peak in MS dominance of usage share occurred in May, 2009 at 94.33%. The minimum? February, 2013 at 86.04%. Apple is inversely correlated: max at Feb., 2013, minimum at Dec., 2008. This is not a coincidence. Similarly, if you look at Win8 adoption rates, you find that win8 is being adopted at 0.3% of usage share per month. Win7 was adopted at 1.1% per month. Even Vista was adopted at 0.5% per month, a greater adoption rate than Win8!! Microsoft has failed with its newest OS, and moreover the crest of each new OS they've released has been lower and lower. I'll admit that right now that non-MS stuff is a lot like people without a TV, growing, but still insignificant, but just wait until somebody like Valve releases a gaming OS or console based on linux, you could see the usage share of MS start to drop more rapidly.

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Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the war room!
Re:Shrug... by Luckyo · 2013-04-19 10:36 · Score: 1

You may not have noticed, but corporations and governments are suffering from a significant credit crunch issues still, as they have been for a while. EU crisis is trucking along, Chinese keep pushing western corporations out of the key markets, US isn't really growing that much, Japan is still messed up from both the decade long stagnation and more recent huge tsunami and so on.
I would suggest that ultimately these factors are far more dangerous to microsoft's bottom line then one release of OS tanking hard. Because people just buy the license for the previous version with their new computer and MS loses exactly nothing.
Whereas global economy squeezing its main customers hard actually does cause reduced revenues and profits.
Re:Shrug... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 10:44 · Score: 0

Whereas everytime you get a new point version of Xcode for a mac you need to get all your 3rd party libraries updated, and recompile all your apps...
Re:Shrug... by Synerg1y · 2013-04-19 10:48 · Score: 1

The real problem is that ZDNet is a fear mongering news website: http://www.zdnet.com/ . Does anybody actually read this garbage?
The day news sites start to dictate how our economy functions, I'm leaving... oh wait...
Re:Shrug... by FridayBob · 2013-04-19 11:04 · Score: 1

Of course Microsoft isn't doomed, and neither is Windows. In the enterprise world, Exchange-Office will still dominate for many years to come. The problem is on the consumer end, where Windows is heading quickly to irrelevance.
That still spells big trouble for Microsoft, because according to Wall Street a shrinking company is never a healthy company. Once their stock price has fallen far enough, they will be acquired by a stronger company.
Re:Shrug... by erroneus · 2013-04-19 11:07 · Score: 1

Consumer relevance is only part of the problem. Consumers are using Windows less. And the things consumers are using are increasingly "standards based" and/or "standards compliant." This will eventually translate over to business. Eventually, so long as standards are being followed, it will not matter what is used to transport the data.
Microsoft's most vehemently fought nightmare is becoming true. Microsoft and its proprietary nature and its vendor lock-in scheme is under threat and there doesn't appear to be a way beyond that. They have capitulated and even started making their browser more standards compliant. What else will be forced to follow?
I think the IT world is a very interesting thing. Think of any other profession. Doctors, lawyers, architects, accountants... just about everyone really. They do their work independent of any particular brand or product preference or requirement. Only in the IT world does it matter if you use one particular product or another. The interenet was created around standards and around the concept that anything should be able to connect to it so long as it followed the rules. This, of course, flies in the face of what companies like Microsoft have been doing. And at first, Microsoft ignored the internet. Then it got connected but it tried to control it at every turn. Java was a fast up and comer where rich content and rich user experiences were concerned. Microsoft immediately tried to take it over. They lost. And things like this went on and on as we all watched it happening -- some of us cheering while others shook their heads. "Active Directory is LDAP, but they changed it!!!" The cries fell on deaf ears. No one knew what LDAP was, but AD was awesome.
But more and more... Microsoft is becoming less and less relevant and standards are remaining important.
Microsoft may not die. But it will be remembered as one whose products have been an assault on the user/consumer at every possible turn costing them and business excessive amounts of money over the years. It wil be remembered as unstable and unreliable; as always needing to be patched, fixed, rebooted, and upgraded. It has earned its reputation.
Re:Shrug... by lgw · 2013-04-19 11:15 · Score: 1

Its not a 'death watch', its a 'how far can MS deflate' watch
Slashdot: celebrating 15 consecutive years of the last year of Microsoft dominance. Surely the 16th time's the charm - the year of Linux on the desktop!

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Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Re:Shrug... by lgw · 2013-04-19 11:23 · Score: 1

It's not paranoia to realize that an unmanaged network of computers is a disaster waiting to happen.
That would be an insane way to do BYOD. Business applications run in the datacenter (or the cloud), not the user's devices. The user can BYOD because the device is just a terminal - sending keystrokes and receiving pixels. I've used my Android phone as the interface to my Windows 8 desktop before (via VMware View, but I'm sure the competitors are similar) and while I wouldn't want to code that way, it's fine for checking the status of stuff.
Supporting a general-purpose PC in an end-user's hands just can't be made cheaper from here (especially in the field, where a technician roll to fix a hardware problem really sucks), but a tablet or thin client to use as a terminal can continue to bring support costs down, and those are disposable if the hardware gets flakey.

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Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Re:Shrug... by lgw · 2013-04-19 11:28 · Score: 1

You're doing BYOD wrong if you're running any of your software on the user's machines. Your business software runs in your datacenter (or the cloud). The user's device is just a terminal, and gets the needed client from the app store for that device. Nothing to even support, client side.

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Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Re:Shrug... by DrVomact · 2013-04-19 12:17 · Score: 1

As long as Microsoft has the strongest commitment to backwards compatibility, they'll retain their market position. Most people don't care about the operating system, they just use it to launch their apps. ...
Well, maybe Windows 8 does have backwards compatibility problems? Have we missed them while ranting about the crappy GUI? I was at a junkyard yesterday, and it was hard to keep my mind on the deal I was trying to make (selling my totaled car to them) because their IT guy was having a very spectacular loud hissy fit. Apparently, the junkyard's software that keeps track of the various car parts wouldn't run under the Windows 8 OS that he had to buy with the new computers he was installing. Just anecdotal evidence, but a data point nevertheless: perhaps America's junkyards are not very happy about Microsoft today.

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Great men are almost always bad men--Lord Acton's Corollary
Re:Shrug... by hairyfeet · 2013-04-19 12:39 · Score: 1

Does being batshit run in your family, or is being batshit a prerequisite for becoming a FOSSie? its a company, not satan, yet you FOSSIes live in your black and white world where the great and wise RMS is always correct and everybody that isn't embracing your religion is wrong.
Give it the fuck up sparky, Linux has been free for 20 years and done exactly jack and shit, I can wallpaper this page with Linux systems being hacked so your magical security by obscurity isn't even helping, and the ONLY success that Linux has seen AT ALL is when Google gave the community the finger and forked the whole damned thing and even RMS says Android and ChromeOS are BAD for the Linux community but in the ultimate irony the ONE time you don't listen to the whacko is when he's right about something.
So please go back to the Linux articles where you can join in the circlejerk about how having less than 1% of the market makes you leet, this is a Windows article here, we don't want your crazy, we ain't buying.

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ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
Re:Shrug... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 13:05 · Score: 0

Windows RT doesn't even have sideways compatability with x86 Win8 software. Grandma will be really happy with that new tablet and puzzle game she just bought that don't work together even though the packaging says they will.
Re:Shrug... by roc97007 · 2013-04-19 13:19 · Score: 1

> As long as Microsoft has the strongest commitment to backwards compatibility, they'll retain their market position.
That's actually a good point. I'd say that where Win8 falls down is that it largely abandons backwards compatibility to common gestures that we used to do to get work done. This is probably not what you meant. Since Win95 we've been led to expect that we'd be manipulating the stuff on our screen a certain way. That's all been abandoned. Microsoft has abandoned it's commitment to GUI backwards compatibility.

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Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
Re:Shrug... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 14:01 · Score: 0

How does VDI sit into this? BYOD should be a no-brainer since you get to control the OS. the only thing not in your control is that the screenview is being displayed on a "insecure" device, but through a "secure" pipe.
2 factor authentication + something like XenDesktop / XenApp seems pretty solid to allow BYOD for the long term future.
Re:Shrug... by Opportunist · 2013-04-19 14:15 · Score: 1

Uhhuh... until one worker brings along a computer that for some reason or another cannot cooperate with your cloud service.

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We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Re:Shrug... by phantomfive · 2013-04-19 14:21 · Score: 1

That could be part of it. It certainly is painful and annoying. I don't think it's enough to kill Microsoft though, since it's not as difficult as needing to rewrite your source code.

The day it's easier to run your business software on Wine than on Windows is the day Microsoft is doomed.

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"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Re:Shrug... by phantomfive · 2013-04-19 14:24 · Score: 1

Whereas everytime you get a new point version of Xcode for a mac you need to get all your 3rd party libraries updated, and recompile all your apps...
Which is exactly why I moved away from Apple.

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"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Re: Shrug... by digitallife · 2013-04-19 14:31 · Score: 2

MS is as doomed as IBM. A company of such immense size does not disappear, its as simple as that. MS will be around for a long, long time.
Re:Shrug... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 14:49 · Score: 0

The fucking article was written by Steven Vaughan-Nichols. He's been shitting on Microsoft and shilling for GNU/Linux for the past 10 years. I find it incredible that nobody on Slashdot has pointed that out.
Re:Shrug... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 15:54 · Score: 0

>MS does need to get it's head out of it's ass and actually listen to what consumers want.
It just occurred to me that that is why Windows 8 is a disaster. Microsoft *is* catering to the consumer market instead of the traditional enterprise market. It's just that every version of Windows before this one has been catered to the enterprise market and that's just what everyone is accustomed to.
Anyone remember the old Simpson's episode where Homer builds a car with "rack and peanut steering?"
Re:Shrug... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 16:07 · Score: 0

>kids using non-Windows/Microsoft devices enter the work force and demand
You're kidding right? Kids entering the workforce don't demand shit if they want to be employed.
You must be in high school or college or something. Ah youth.
A quick lesson on how to be a great programmer:
1. Be good at what you do.
2. Don't be an asshole.
if you fail at either, you're working at Best Buy.
Re:Shrug... by dbIII · 2013-04-19 17:23 · Score: 1

Yes, Win ME was rubbish back then so MS had to react and bring out something better or become less relevant.
Re:Shrug... by dbIII · 2013-04-19 17:33 · Score: 1

As long as Microsoft has the strongest commitment to backwards compatibility, they'll retain their market position.

I've got about six people at my workplace that love an old version of AutoCAD LT and do not want to use any of a close to a dozen alternatives I've got them to try (including the current one). They use it even if it means firing up an XP virtual machine or running it remotely from a linux box that has wine on it, and displaying it on their screen using X. The "backwards compatibility" is so broken that the linux users can run the old software far more easily than the Win7 users. There are plenty of other examples - anything that has 16 bit code or depends on any of a pile of old libraries that have changed too much over the years is broken. That's why I've still got anyone that doesn't need to run things that require a pile of memory but still need to run old apps stuck on XP. I've even got a Win2k machine in the server room FFS for people to VNC to and run some VB shit that does a useful job but was never upgraded to run on anything newer than about two service packs into Win2k.
Thus I see the "strongest commitment to backwards compatibility" as not matching reality very well at all.
Re:Shrug... by dbIII · 2013-04-19 17:38 · Score: 1

The day it's easier to run your business software on Wine than on Windows is the day Microsoft is doomed.
The funny thing is I put an example of such a thing in a reply to you above (autoCAD LT from before a GUI change that users don't like will not run on win7), but since it's not an everyday thing I'm not going to write them off for a while.
Re:Shrug... by phantomfive · 2013-04-19 18:16 · Score: 1

Thus I see the "strongest commitment to backwards compatibility" as not matching reality very well at all.
You might think so, but it's relative. Consider the fact that you are able to run software from Windows XP on the latest iteration. Then compare it to OSX, where no software compiled before 2005 will run on the latest version.

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"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Re:Shrug... by phantomfive · 2013-04-19 18:17 · Score: 1

A single example isn't good enough. On the balance, it's still easier to run all your old Windows stuff on Windows (at least on Windows 7, I haven't tried Windows 8 much).

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"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Re:Shrug... by dbIII · 2013-04-19 19:49 · Score: 1

What's wrong with adressing the actual question (backwards compatibility) without throwing in some sort of a comparison to another platform where I really don't know one way or another if it's true or not? With respect I don't care about the current OS X, and care very little about the earlier versions.
Re:Shrug... by dbIII · 2013-04-19 19:52 · Score: 1

That's actually what I was trying to say - it's a single example of a business app that's easier to run on linux than Win7 but not something that dooms that platform in any way. It would be nice if there was something like wine on MS platforms to handle compatibility on a library level (like wine) instead of having to open a whole virtual machine and sit through a virtual boot.
Re:Shrug... by phantomfive · 2013-04-19 19:57 · Score: 1

Because the original term was, "strongest commitment to backwards compatibility." Strongest means strongest compared to other platforms, it doesn't mean absolutely strong.

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"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Re:Shrug... by phantomfive · 2013-04-19 19:59 · Score: 1

True, and if Microsoft let's too many of those applications in, then Linux will start looking a lot more appealing.

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"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Re:Shrug... by nukenerd · 2013-04-19 22:01 · Score: 1

That's odd, Hairyfeet, but your GP post was quite sensible. Then when Alex Belits' comment comes along you go off the rails.

go back to the Linux articles where you can join in the circlejerk about how having less than 1% of the market makes you leet, this is a Windows article here
In fact Alex did not mention Linux. He is talking about Windows only. And as you say, this is a Windows article here.

As for bringing RMS into it, why assume that all FOSSes regard him as great and good? Frankly, he is sidelined these days. He moved things, but his day is gone now, and as he has changed from development to advocacy it is apparent that most of his ideas are crackpot. Things like persistently using "she" as the default third person pronoun. I think he has lost it.
Re:Shrug... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-20 00:25 · Score: 0

Of course Microsoft isn't doomed, and neither is Windows. In the enterprise world, Exchange-Office will still dominate for many years to come.
The problem is on the consumer end, where Windows is heading quickly to irrelevance.
Of course they're doomed. The company has had a lot of really smart developers and engineers, a whole ton of cash, and the ability to let its projects play out over years for decades, and in all that time has been been unable to figure out how to take advantage of those highly enviable attributes. The only thing they seem to know how to do is milk their cash cows of Windows and Office, rebranding and re-UIing them periodically and applying as much monopoly power as they can to keep milking them. If they were capable of succeeding at anything new, they'd have done it by now.
Re:Shrug... by dbIII · 2013-04-20 00:37 · Score: 1

Fair enough. However in comparison to solaris, aix, linux etc it doesn't come remotely close due mainly to the unfortunate library naming flaw that was never addressed until dotnet started with versioned libraries.
Re:Shrug... by DuckDodgers · 2013-04-20 00:51 · Score: 1

In defense of Microsoft, I don't think Windows 7 2.0 would do significantly better than Windows 8 right now. Part of the problem is Windows 8 itself, but part of the problem is just that iOS, Android, and even Chrome OS are acceptable alternatives to Windows for a lot of casual computer users and Windows 7 itself still runs just fine even on computers that are five years old and not particularly high end when new.
Re:Shrug... by phantomfive · 2013-04-20 03:56 · Score: 1

I'm not sure....the Linux kernel guys have a strong commitment to backwards compatibility. But a lot of other people in the open source community will say things like backwards compatibility doesn't matter too much. The Python creator, for example. I don't even know if you can run anything written for Motif anymore. And I'm not too confident in the GNome guys maintaining backwards compatibility.

Now, for personal projects, I can use WxWidgets, and I have confidence in that. But I can see how people might be worried about the stability of Linux.

Still, if it ever comes to the point where most Windows software people use runs better in Wine than in Windows, Microsoft is going to be in trouble.

--
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Re:Shrug... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-20 04:38 · Score: 0

Of course Microsoft isn't doomed, and neither is Windows. In the enterprise world, Exchange-Office will still dominate for many years to come.
The problem is on the consumer end, where Windows is heading quickly to irrelevance.
===
Just introduce a better Office Product, for all (MAC, BSD, Linux, Windows, Cloud) and watch where MS goes.
Re:Shrug... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-20 05:34 · Score: 0

Those who comply will do so reluctantly, and will use non-MS devices whenever they can get away with it, and will change the MS-only policies as soon as they move up the hierarchy sufficiently.
MS is doomed.
Not doomed to die - doomed to be just another software company, not *the* software company.
Re:Shrug... by cavebison · 2013-04-20 09:32 · Score: 1

> The problem is on the consumer end, where Windows is heading quickly to irrelevance.
Yawn. Wake me up when:
a) Apple allows OSX to run on PC hardware,
b) Something other than Windows makes inroads onto mass-market consumer PCs & laptops.
Then I'll concede than Windows is heading quickly into a relevant but more competitive future.
Re:Shrug... by spire3661 · 2013-04-20 10:16 · Score: 1

My full power gaming rig runs linux and ./gasp plays AAA games. Bluetooth, wifi, NIC, high-end graphics card all work at install. Havent had to touch the command line once. Microsoft is experiencing an unprecedented loss of mindshare and marketshare. Their ability to bully and buy is greatly diminished. But yeah keep rollin those old tropes and ignore the ground shifting under your feet.

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Good-bye
Re:Shrug... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-20 11:58 · Score: 0

for once listen to the customer, give us the choice, how hard to add install options, classic ui metro etc, selectable elements to make it user friendly instead of stuff you, we decide how ever wrong they are. time they stop thinking they are gods and wake the f**k up, with out the punter were are they.... time to make windows a fit to the customer as apposed to an off the shelf bit of c**p.
Re:Shrug... by dbIII · 2013-04-20 15:45 · Score: 1

I don't even know if you can run anything written for Motif anymore
It does run. A very expensive per seat bit of software people run in my workplace still needs it - that and 8 color only displays for one module ("grrr" - works but makes you jump through hoops first). A lot of commercial *nix software is very slow moving. I think the long popular "xv" image viewer (last revision 12/29/94 according to the splash screen now I've opened it) uses motif as well. The reason it can is you can still use the old libraries - the reason a lot of old stuff doesn't work on MS Windows is because you can't use the old libraries because there's a new incompatible thing with the same name. Dotnet at least avoids that problem so hopefully a great deal of the MS Windows software used now will be usable on MS Windows in a decade or more.
Re:Shrug... by phantomfive · 2013-04-20 17:29 · Score: 1

Wow, now I'm wondering what kind of place you work at. That's a lot of software variety you have there.

--
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Re:Shrug... by lgw · 2013-04-22 03:48 · Score: 1

You mean a device with no web browser? Really?
There are still devices that don't work well with remote virtual desktops, but likely nothing new, as competition is strong in that space right now.

--
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Re:Shrug... by Mashiki · 2013-04-22 07:49 · Score: 1

Yes, Win ME was rubbish back then so MS had to react and bring out something better or become less relevant.
I do believe it was called Windows 2000, XP was fine and all but 2K was a league above, beyond and simply glorious in terms of stability.

--
Om, nomnomnom...

Fire Steve Ballmer by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 07:25 · Score: 5, Funny

Fire Steve Ballmer

Re:Fire Steve Ballmer by Sponge+Bath · 2013-04-19 07:41 · Score: 4, Funny

Fire Steve Ballmer
Monkey God says no. Steve will rule until he passes, then a taxidermist will pose him in a display like in Planet of the Apes. A feral pose would be funny. Grrrr!
Re:Fire Steve Ballmer by OakDragon · 2013-04-19 07:47 · Score: 1

Because Slashdot doesn't have a "-1 Unoriginal" moderation. :)

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Dark Reflection
Re:Fire Steve Ballmer by Applekid · 2013-04-19 07:47 · Score: 1

Fire Steve Ballmer
No originality points, but +100 full grasp of reality points.

--
More Twoson than Cupertino
Re:Fire Steve Ballmer by Sir_Eptishous · 2013-04-19 07:48 · Score: 1

"Take your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty ape"

--
We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
Re:Fire Steve Ballmer by Tablizer · 2013-04-19 08:00 · Score: 1

He just needs to throw chairs faster and harder.

--
Table-ized A.I.
Re:Fire Steve Ballmer by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:01 · Score: 0

Ooh, I have a good idea: They can fire Steve Ballmer. At this point, I should get some unoriginality points for the suggestion, no?
Re:Fire Steve Ballmer by Hentes · 2013-04-19 08:13 · Score: 1

No need to fire, just put him in the position he's actually good at: marketing.
Re:Fire Steve Ballmer by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:17 · Score: 0

Do I get originality points for saying Windows is Not Dead Yet?
Re:Fire Steve Ballmer by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:26 · Score: 0

He said Steve Ballmer, but for some reason, I thought 'Steve Jobs.' That made the idea of a taxidermist putting him a feral pose quite amusing to me.
Re:Fire Steve Ballmer by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:26 · Score: 0

No, please let him get rid of that wretched hive of scum and villainy for us first.
Re:Fire Steve Ballmer by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:41 · Score: 0

Fire Steve Ballmer
And hire Carly Fiorna.
Re:Fire Steve Ballmer by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:54 · Score: 0

Fire Steve Ballmer
Cuz 5% growth in this economy is the worst thing imaginable. The bottom line at MS since he has been in the big chair has done quite well.
More GNU/linux companies should keep this in mind. The money you bring home at the end of the day is what matters.
Re:Fire Steve Ballmer by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 09:06 · Score: 0

This is the Scientology College in England.
Re:Fire Steve Ballmer by king+neckbeard · 2013-04-19 09:10 · Score: 1

Originality is highly overrated. I'd rather have an old idea that's good than a new one that's bullshit.

--
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Re:Fire Steve Ballmer by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 09:20 · Score: 0

He just needs to throw chairs faster and harder.
Hm, catch the chairs with buckets hooked to a generator, and that could work.
Re:Fire Steve Ballmer by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 10:04 · Score: 0

Redundant?
Re:Fire Steve Ballmer by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 11:47 · Score: 0

...with chair in hands.
Re:Fire Steve Ballmer by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 17:22 · Score: 0

Fire Steve Ballmer

And hire Carly Fiorna.
I'd give my left nut for mod points tonight, except that /. no longer appears to value my left nut. Well-played.
Re:Fire Steve Ballmer by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 19:58 · Score: 0

In Soviet Russia chairs throw Ballmer
Re:Fire Steve Ballmer by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-20 01:40 · Score: 0

-1 Redundant?
Re: Fire Steve Ballmer by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-20 17:47 · Score: 0

I concur, MS needs a visionary an open source approach and no BALLMER

This subject was covered well last time. by a_big_favor · 2013-04-19 07:26 · Score: 1

Let's rehash it all again!

Re:There is only one possible course of action. by MightyMartian · 2013-04-19 07:27 · Score: 0, Offtopic

In Soviet Russia, Steve Ballmer fires you!

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The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.

nope by iggymanz · 2013-04-19 07:27 · Score: 4, Insightful

the only reason they became accepted into the enterprise is because that is what consumers were familiar with, But now that model is going to rot from the ground up, at least three other major players have good inroads to eat Microsoft's lunch. Windows 8 marks the beginning of the fall of Microsoft.

Re:nope by tbannist · 2013-04-19 07:31 · Score: 4, Informative

I suspect it was Vista that marked the beginning of the fall. Quite a few people got burned on new computers that weren't actually "Ready for Vista". People expect new versions of Windows to be bloated pigs on old hardware, but when it runs like a pig on brandnew hardware? That's an unforgivable sin.

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Fanatically anti-fanatical
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 07:37 · Score: 2, Informative

the only reason they became accepted into the enterprise is because that is what consumers were familiar with, But now that model is going to rot from the ground up, at least three other major players have good inroads to eat Microsoft's lunch. Windows 8 marks the beginning of the fall of Microsoft.
I think it's a some what accurate statement to say that Microsoft got into the enterprise because of home users. But they don't just have a PC as a foot hold in small to medium enterprises like they do in consumer homes. They have Active Directory, Exchange, MS SQL, SharePoint etc. The organizations build their business processes around these technologies and while there are replacements for all of them it could be very difficult to get business to buy in.
Re:nope by HBBisenieks · 2013-04-19 07:38 · Score: 2

Until developers stop writing enterprise software for Windows, enterprise settings are going to continue to be dominated by Microsoft. Couple this with the fact that many large businesses are only just migrating to Win7 now, and only because XP's time is almost up--even if the every-other-OS-flops model isn't particularly sustainable, I think it's likely that Windows 9, or whatever they decide to call it, will arrive as the Win7 to 8's Vista and continue the cycle for some time to come. Also, regardless of how it came to be accepted in enterprise, I don't think that consumer familiarity is going to gain ground against the Windows status-quo in enterprise any time soon.
Re:nope by Penguinisto · 2013-04-19 07:42 · Score: 5, Interesting

This, right here.
The original rationale for Windows in the enterprise began when companies wanted cheap "personal" computers in the workplace. They wanted those computers with a drop-stupid UI and a cheap OS on them. Windows was perfectly poised to fill that need (Apples cost too much, GEM had issues, and Amiga was too much like an appliance to be flexible.)
Nowadays, if W8/Metro is what Microsoft expects the planet to use, they may be in for a shock. No serious enterprise will touch it (outside of certain "Platinum Partners" who drink Redmond-flavored koolaid by the tanker-truck), since it (currently) hampers the hell out of work. When home users buy a PC, they want a frickin' PC - and not some over-spec'd tablet with a keyboard lashed onto it.
While I won't say that Microsoft is dead meat, I will say that they're making one hell of a potentially fatal mistake here. They don't have room to bork things up like they used to (see also Steam's decision), and Apple is smart enough to stay expensive enough to make a serious profit, but just barely cheap enough to be within reach of anyone who could be considered a decision-maker.

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Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
Re:nope by Penguinisto · 2013-04-19 07:44 · Score: 1

Until developers stop writing enterprise software for Windows, enterprise settings are going to continue to be dominated by Microsoft.
Mind you, this is already starting to happen. While most normal office drones can't quite do it yet, I can do all of my ordinary sysadmin stuff without the use of Windows... and that includes managing Exchange, AD, what-have-you (usually via RDP if there's no direct equivalent).

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Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
Re:nope by interval1066 · 2013-04-19 07:56 · Score: 4, Interesting

I think a smart move would be to split Mirosoft up into 3 new companies. Microsoft is currently too big and dumb to move quickly. Time to split it up into 3 companies; let Ballmer have the big enterprise contracts, and keep developing windows servers and workstations. He likes playing with the big boys, smoking cigars, and golf. He can have that. Then they need to take the consumer-facing elements and create a consumer oriented company. Tablets, phones, & R&D. Get some new blood in there and let them innovate. Lastly; take the XBox crowd, marketing, and entertainment. Maybe even dip a toe in movie production. Certainly video games. I'd explore splitting Microsoft up as described. Yeah.

--
Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 07:56 · Score: 0

And they have since rectified that. Windows 7 had lower system requirements than Vista, and (importantly ran much better). Windows 8 also continues that trends though the difference between it and Windows 7 is not nearly as dramatic.
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 07:58 · Score: 0

That's what they said about Vista, WIndows XP too.
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 07:58 · Score: 5, Insightful

the only reason they became accepted into the enterprise is because that is what consumers were familiar with

Sorry but you're talking out of your ass. If a "consumer" owned a PC at all at the time that Windows started to make inroads to the enterprise it was either Apple, Atari or Commodore. Windows made inroads because MS-DOS was the defacto standard thanks to IBM and when the GUI was ready for primetime Microsoft was already embedded in the culture. Whoever modded you up doesn't know jack about computing in the enterprise. It's kind of pathetic when you stop to think of it.

But now that model is going to rot from the ground up, at least three other major players have good inroads to eat Microsoft's lunch.

It's going to rot? Really? Show me where MS's domination on a production platform is threated. Do you honestly think that people using Android phones and iPads are a threat to full functioning computers that aren't just running a bunch of small apps? Please. And Windows will still be the largest marketshare (by far) for the home user who still decides to support a PC into the next decade.

Windows 8 marks the beginning of the fall of Microsoft.

I seem to recall hearing the same thing around here when Windows ME was about a year old too. Lo and behold, the next release from MS made Microsoft more money and embedded them further into the end user culture more than any other product ever has.
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 07:59 · Score: 1

Smart organizations have been shedding MS products like unwanted fat however. While AD doesn't have an easily substitutable FLOSS replacement, all of the rest do. And every enterprise that I've consulted into FLOSS solutions for the rest of their stack were 1000% happier in almost every way; particularly the price. Surprisingly Google Apps for Business has been replacing a LOT of MS backend stuff at tons of places.
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:00 · Score: 0

When Microsoft was entering the business market there was little or no consumer market. Businesses selected Microsoft because it came on IBM computers and as was said at the time, no one was fired for buying IBM.
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:02 · Score: 1, Interesting

Exactly this! They were nowhere near enterprise at that time, it had something to do with home users, how those were forced to use Windows is a different story. They were into those not-too-fair business practices long before Slashdot appeared, but younger folk doesn't remember that and exaggerate the current matter of things we have now.
Windows XP was not welcome in enterprise, in fact it was a failure when it came out, it had a well known UP'n'P exploit, which allowed you to execute anything remotely as a privileged user. And UP'n'P was enabled by default. Now it looks like XP was the best OS ever. Come on, it never was. and the fact that it was so outdated made many people use outdated ways of doing things.
I've used Red Hat at home, there wasn't even RHEL/Fedora/whatever-else-it-is-nowadays then I switched to Mac OS X, which had it's share of issues, but was pretty good until Apple came up with 10.5, which was crap IMHO. Now MS comes up with an OS which is pretty stable, which has an UI which actually is somewhat intuitive to me, the one who has no Windows habits, it actually is usable on olde Thinkpad T43 I have for basic stuff, and now everyone bashes it because there is no Start button. WTF? Start button was an ugly idea when it appeared in Windows 95 and now it's finally gone and everyone complains. This makes me a sad panda.
Maybe people did deserve that ugly UI and unusable OS?
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:02 · Score: 0

Well, when they make the operating so unfamiliar, that is the change to change to something that is a bit more stable. It seems like Microsoft is moving everything ever few years, just to aggravate everyone who got use to it.
Re:nope by alen · 2013-04-19 08:04 · Score: 2

nope
Active Directory, Exchange and their other software is pretty easy to set up. AD is nothing but a prepackaged LDAP database that is pretty much guaranteed to work. unlike making your own from scratch with open ldap and buying other exchange clones or other software.
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:06 · Score: 1

Very much doubt it. The moral of the whole Windows XP story is that enterprises are already treating PCs like they were legacy devices that stratified around 2002.
The next logical step is start isolating and virtualizing everything you can and throw it into 'the cloud' somewhere. Then you can use IE6 and VB until the end of time, all while your client platforms are completely independent of Microsoft's upgrade train.
Sure Microsoft will always own this piece (just like how IBM still owns mainframes), but they will be off in their own corner and won't be driving the broader technology decisions.
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:06 · Score: 0

The reason it will REMAIN accepted in the enterprise is that's what companies are using and it's expensive to switch.
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:18 · Score: 0

the only reason [Microsoft] became accepted into the enterprise is because that is what consumers were familiar with
Do you understand how wrong this is? It is so wrong that it's completely the opposite of what happened. I don't even know how you got modded up. People brought DOS home because it was what they used at work.
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:21 · Score: 3, Interesting

It depends on who you ask. When IBM introduced the PC with MS-DOS on it, it was for businesses. My parents, astute enough to see this (amazingly, they were computer illiterate) switched me from a Commodore to a PC Clone with MS-DOS because .... businesses used it. It would help me prepare for my future. This was in 1990. This is simply an anecdote, but I'm certain the logic was applied to more kids than me, and is still applied today.
Don't get me wrong, I love, love, love Macs, but they are a niche market, as is the iPhone when you consider the entire breadth of software development. When you consider the entire breadth of business computing in general (business users, analysts, etc), and it's even smaller. It's a trend, it's popular, it can make some people some money, but it's small when considered with everything else out there.
Microsoft dominates this arena, it's just dominating less. This was bound to happen due to the internet, and it's amazing it took this long for Microsoft to relinquish some of it's stranglehold, but it's still a stranglehold.
Re:nope by pnutjam · 2013-04-19 08:22 · Score: 4, Interesting

If I could right click anywhere and get a menu I wouldn't need a start menu. Since I have to swipe from the side with my mouse, or click a tiny portion of the screen that hijacks the rest of the screen, a simple button starts to make sense.

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Cheap storage VM.
Re:nope by oldlurker · 2013-04-19 08:22 · Score: 3, Insightful

Nowadays, if W8/Metro is what Microsoft expects the planet to use, they may be in for a shock. No serious enterprise will touch it (outside of certain "Platinum Partners" who drink Redmond-flavored koolaid by the tanker-truck), since it (currently) hampers the hell out of work. When home users buy a PC, they want a frickin' PC - and not some over-spec'd tablet with a keyboard lashed onto it.
How does replacing a pop-up start menu with a full page start menu, but otherwise make the OS faster in every way (boot, sleep/resume, use) and fully backwards compatible "hamper the hell out of work". I get that the new start menu can be jarring, and that the need to click once to get to traditional desktop mode can be irritating, but I'm really lost in the Slashdot hyperbole of how extremely bad this is. I agree that metro and desktop could have smoother co-existence, and better defaults to stay with one or the other for the people who want that. But as I have and use Win8 on a new non-touch laptop, I think the exaggerations are ridiculous.
Re:nope by aztracker1 · 2013-04-19 08:25 · Score: 1

The lock in is really the millions of dollars in development time in integrating all the MS tools around their own business processes. I've managed to replace a subset of our systems with newer options, but still the majority is .Net + SQL, and will continue to be so for years to come. This is in a small shop, let alone a larger corporation that has some Java, some .Net, very little *other* and possible some crufty mainframe/sas/peoplesoft integrations.

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Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
Re:nope by CastrTroy · 2013-04-19 08:27 · Score: 1

While there may be "replacements" there are no "drop in replacements" It's not like with MySQL, where if you don't like MySQL you can just change the server to MariaDB or Percona server and most things will just work the same. If you write your application against MS SQL, or Sharepoint, there is no way to switch short of rewriting the entire (or very large parts of) the application. Same goes for things like Exchange. There are tools that do many of the same things as Exchange, but nothing that's really a drop in replacement.

--

Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
Re:nope by painandgreed · 2013-04-19 08:29 · Score: 1

The original rationale for Windows in the enterprise began when companies wanted cheap "personal" computers in the workplace. They wanted those computers with a drop-stupid UI and a cheap OS on them.
I wouldn't even say they needed a UI. When they were taking over business, it was pretty much just script the launch of the one program people used. even with Windows 3.11 and 95, it was more a matter of just putting the icons to the important programs in an easy to click on place and train the users in the applications. If enterprise IT is forced to upgrade to Win8, we'll just also install some 3rd party program in the image that will make it easy for the users to do launch their applications and it will still be much less work than what we had to go through with 3.11 or 95. Nevermind that out hands are pretty much tied by what the vendors who make those programs decide to use for their front ends. They have been going towards linux servers for a while, but for delivery, things are getting even more tied down to IE it seems.
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:33 · Score: 0

But, Windows 8 changes the entire UX in favor of a tablet UI on non-tablet devices. So, MS makes the learning curve between continuing to use their OS/UI vs switching to virtually non-existent. The ONLY thing to keep someone using MS products is lack of alternative software. And with cloud based solutions for most basic things there really is little to keep a good swath of people from switching (mainly price if the want to buy into Apple, but free if they go open source).
Re:nope by Nerdfest · 2013-04-19 08:35 · Score: 2

Linux and Mac are both making inroads to businesses. Yeah, tablets and phones are part of it to, but trends towards BYOD don't have to be limited to those.
Re:nope by JSombra · 2013-04-19 08:38 · Score: 2

It was more the other way around, MS did well in the consumer market because most users were familiar with their products at work. PC's were expensive investments for majority of individuals until the mid to late 90's, but not out of reach of enterprises,/p>
Re:nope by gl4ss · 2013-04-19 08:39 · Score: 4, Informative

it's extremely jarring because it serves no other purpose than to tie you into metro apps downloaded through the marketplace. for no good reason you can't run the apps (without 3rd party sw) in windows. that's the real beef, that it's so unnecessarely the way it is. and that it jumps on top of your work(that's a big issue actually). and that you have to do reboot tricks to install some drivers for more exotic hw. it comes bundled with a pdf reader sure. but it's totally unusable if you're trying to use it to read a pdf as a reference for doing actual work. it's just so almost there but yet so far away - technically it's better than win7 but not in any way that would matter to any user(stuff just worked in 7, stuff just works in 8) and the political decisions the management took when deciding how it should behave to the user just stink to high heavens.
they'll just tone it down on next release, the boot times from win7 to win8 aren't that different tho.
so I don't really see MS being in more trouble than they were in the '90s with linux, beos, os/2 and others.
but suppose I'd be using anything else than windows.. could I run a binary hardware accelerated 3d program from 13 years ago on any current release of them ? I can on windows, it runs better than on any other windows yet too. If ms would take that away - go all windows rt - then sure, ms would be fucked, there would be zero reason to stick with it.

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world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:41 · Score: 0

the only reason they became accepted into the enterprise is because that is what consumers were familiar with
the only reason they became accepted into the enterprise is because that is what consumers were familiar with
Wrong. MS programs were in the enterprise long before more than a few had computers in their homes. As soon as IBM made a "minicomputer" as they were called back then, all the computer manufacturers except Tandy and Apple (which were the home computers back then) died because "nobody ever got fired for buying IBM" is how their OS became dominant. They became dominant in office productivity programs because of a combination of their competetitors becoming complacent and MS dirty tricks against them ("DOS ain't done 'til Windows won't run"). Corel and Lotus pretty much shot themselves in the foot. By the time Compaq cloned the IBM PC's BIOS the mantra had become "nobody ever got fired for buying Microsoft."
Microsoft was in the office decades before it was in homes. They wanted a Windows computer in their home because that was what they were use to in the office, not the other way around.
I have no clue how you got a +5 insightful, unless they were modding for "at least three other major players have good inroads to eat Microsoft's lunch" which is indeed the case now. Either that, or the moderators aren't old enough to have finished college and are as ignorant of recent (>30 yrs) history as you.
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:45 · Score: 0

the boot times from win7 to win8 aren't that different tho.
Disagree. Haven't timed my own PC but it is significantly faster booting with Win8 vs Win7. PC Magazine clocked Win8 to boot in less than half the time (!) of Windows 7 on same PC in their test. http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2406668,00.asp. For me, that is "that different".
Re:nope by Dcnjoe60 · 2013-04-19 08:45 · Score: 5, Interesting

That would be false. The enterprise embraced OS/2 and Windows NT while the consumers were using Windows 95/98. Likewise, consumers were not using Exchange. One could reasonable argue that what made them accepted was not Microsoft at all, but IBM which introduced their enterprise customers to relatively low priced desktop computers compared to their offering of mini and mainframe computing back in the 1980s.
Once Intel PCs were established in the enterprise, when the GUI was becoming standard, the question became which one Mac OS (not OS X), OS/2 and Windows NT. OS/2 was the favorite until Microsoft and IBM had a major falling out and Windows NT and OS/2 went their separate ways. Since Windows NT worked on IBM hardware plus all of the clones and IBM OS/2 mainly worked on IBM hardware (meaning the PS/2 line), Windows NT won out. Then NT became Windows 2000 and after that Microsoft merged their business and consumer products into Windows XP.
Along the way, there were numerous failings - Windows 3.0, Windows 95 (while successful, was buggy) Windows ME, Windows Vista. Each time it was supposed to be the end of Microsoft, but that never happened. Why not? Because Microsoft also is exchange server which many businesses depend on. It is also SQL server and Office and a whole lot more than simply Windows. That is only the tip of Microsoft's iceberg.
Does that mean that MIcrosoft will continue to reign supreme, no of course not. Neither will Apple. Both of them will succumb, like IBM did before them to somebody else. The problem is that when you are at the top of the heap, there is nowhere else to go but down. But even if they are no longer the dominate force, that doesn't mean they still aren't a force. Again, look at IBM as an example. Of course, IBM did have to take a hard look at the role they wanted to play in the industry. Whether Microsoft is willing to do that or not is yet to be seen.
As for Windows 8 failure to launch, there are two reasons, at least in the corporate world. 1st, it is different and being different means money spent on retraining workers and increased tech support costs. Different is fine if it leads to productivity gains or something along those lines, but that gives us point 2 - Windows 7 is good enough. Windows 8 doesn't increase productivity and in a typical business setting often decreases it. Some argue that Windows 8 was a tablet design forced on a desktop. Maybe, maybe not. However, there is no doubt that it is a consumer design that corporations aren't pleased with as it doesn't fit their needs. Corporations don't buy into the consumer marketing hype. They have bean counters that look at the bottom line and things like ROI. In that scenario, Windows 8 doesn't cut it.
The irony is that Windows 8 contains some great technology. The reason it has failed is not because of the technology or the engineering. The reason it failed is because Microsoft misread its market and produced a product that it's largest customer base (corporations) didn't want or need. If they get it right with their corporate customers with Windows 9, then Windows 8 is just a good product that nobody wanted. Maybe Microsoft should follow Canonical and have LTS versions that favor corporate use and use the intervening years to experiment with the interface. Those things that work and are accepted make it into the next LTS those that don't, well, don't.
Re:nope by The+Grim+Reefer · 2013-04-19 08:46 · Score: 5, Insightful

I suspect it was Vista that marked the beginning of the fall.
Actually wasn't what is being said about Win8 identical to what was said about Vista? And before that XP was a failure until sp1 was released, ME before that and 95 before that. I think Bob and Clippy were also the death knell for Microsoft too. Oh, and the ribbon in Office, can't forget that one. Granted, they can't keep screwing over their customer base with every other release continually. But they still hold a lot of market share. They just don't have absolute dominance like they once seemed to (not that that was necessarily ever true).
Re:nope by miroku000 · 2013-04-19 08:48 · Score: 1

Nowadays, if W8/Metro is what Microsoft expects the planet to use, they may be in for a shock. No serious enterprise will touch it (outside of certain "Platinum Partners" who drink Redmond-flavored koolaid by the tanker-truck), since it (currently) hampers the hell out of work. When home users buy a PC, they want a frickin' PC - and not some over-spec'd tablet with a keyboard lashed onto it.
How does replacing a pop-up start menu with a full page start menu, but otherwise make the OS faster in every way (boot, sleep/resume, use) and fully backwards compatible "hamper the hell out of work". I get that the new start menu can be jarring, and that the need to click once to get to traditional desktop mode can be irritating, but I'm really lost in the Slashdot hyperbole of how extremely bad this is. I agree that metro and desktop could have smoother co-existence, and better defaults to stay with one or the other for the people who want that. But as I have and use Win8 on a new non-touch laptop, I think the exaggerations are ridiculous.
Well, at least on my machine that I upgraded to Windows 8, their start menu is really broken. There are applications in my old start menu, that I could find by typing their name that the Metro start menu doesn't show at all, even if I start typing their name. Essentially, the windows 8 method of launching them involves going into desktop mode and manually navigating to c:\program files x86\ etc.
Re:nope by s.petry · 2013-04-19 08:56 · Score: 5, Insightful

While well thought out, there is a very important aspect that you neglect. It was hinted at, but not bluntly called out. That aspect is that a huge part of the reason Windows went into the workplace was because people were familiar with it at home. Marketing played it's part too mind you, but not as much as an exec being able to do everything at work he did at home in the same way.
The same can be said of applications. MS gave Word away. It was horrible compared to competitive products, but it was free. Everyone became familiar with it. Word Perfect required extra knowledge that a home user didn't have. The same exact statement can be said about Excel compared to Lotus 1-2-3.
When MS loses dominance on home devices, people lose that familiarity. It will certainly impact the approach businesses take to OSes and Devices. In fact I'll state it already has, since most large companies are trying to develop any-device anywhere platforms.

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-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:57 · Score: 0

I like to think of Windows 8 as Windows 7 for tablets. They didn't exactly shit the bed, but as you pointed out, it doesn't add much of anything.
When they issue the desktop patch it'll just be a slightly newer Win7, and businesses will take it as machines get cycled out. There's no tragedy in that, but it's not a blockbuster, either.
Meanwhile, I heard MSFT beat expectations earlier this week... which conveniently always seems to follow bouts, "omg they're doooomed!"
I think they'll be fine.
Re:nope by The+Grim+Reefer · 2013-04-19 08:57 · Score: 1

They were into those not-too-fair business practices long before Slashdot appeared, but younger folk doesn't remember that and exaggerate the current matter of things we have now. Windows XP was not welcome in enterprise, in fact it was a failure when it came out, it had a well known UP'n'P exploit, which allowed you to execute anything remotely as a privileged user. And UP'n'P was enabled by default. Now it looks like XP was the best OS ever.
Didn't the original XP release also send random core dumps to Microsoft? I'm pretty sure that was the OS that did that. That was a pretty big problem with enterprise too.
Re:nope by Old97 · 2013-04-19 09:01 · Score: 1

the only reason they became accepted into the enterprise is because that is what consumers were familiar with
I"ve never bought that argument. When the IBM PC was introduced, businesses flocked to it because 1) it was from IBM, 2) it was cheaper than the more proprietary machnes (e.g. Displaywrite, System 23, etc.) and 3) more versatile than dedicated word processors. MS-DOS was the version of PC-DOS that could run on clones so businesses began to accept clones because they were compatible, cheaper and usually faster. Windows was written to run on MS-DOS so it was natural that businesses would give it a try. Window's PC's could run all the DOS software and were getting more "Mac like". They tended to either be cheaper or had more options than Macs. OS/2 was way too complex to install and had limited applications that ran natively. OS?2 was a great host for Windows though. So for businesses to use OS/2 they'd have to write custom applications - many did - and then they'd run packaged office applications in Windows
Myself and most everyone I know bought Windows machines because 1) that is what we used at work, not the other way around, 2) that's what OEM's offered and 3) there were tons of apps that ran on it - including the ones we used at work. I don't remember Microsoft ever being all that good marketing to consumers. XBox is a rare exception. OEM's and the business experience is what has driven Window's dominance - not home computer users.

--
Very often, people confuse simple with simplistic. The nuance is lost on most. - Clement Mok
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 09:02 · Score: 0

By hiding useful and well-known functionality in favor of a lowest common denominator, non-business oriented interface and throwing it in your face every time the machine starts up. Then by adding built-in advertising that 1) wastes bandwidth, 2) wastes screen space, and 3) potentially puts competitors' ads on your company's machines and forces it on your employees. Then add to that the fact that all of the major speed improvements already existed in the previous version, but weren't active by default. Then throw in a bonus UFIA (google it) by making software developers unsure whether you're going to continue supporting the tools and libraries they use.
Microsoft. SMRT.
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 09:05 · Score: 0

Good point!
It might be the fact that I've used Mac OS X for a long time, but I think hot corners are a good UI choice. No one does this stuff on a multitouch tablet anymore, there are these cool four finger gestures, even apple uses those by default in favor of hot corners. I don't think this is the best solution because you cant use it everywhere e.g. over VNC, but I must admit it's good if you use a local touch pad.
That's it, I think hot corners are a good thing, I do find it as usable as a context menu. I have this to win geek cred back: plan9 is way more comfortable if you use three button mouse — pretty much a common thing nowadays, there were two button mice and they are pain to use with p9. Why are multitouch gestures different? There is a way for you to get accustomed to that besides using a touchscreen — traditional display and a multitouch capable touchpad which supports swipe and all that is okay for me, why not?
Re:nope by BTWR · 2013-04-19 09:08 · Score: 1

Along the way, there were numerous failings - Windows 3.0, Windows 95 (while successful, was buggy) Windows ME, Windows Vista.

Good post.So what you're saying is that every-other Windows release is successful. Sales-wise and review-wise you'd be correct. We shall see what happens with Windows 9
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 09:13 · Score: 1

Bingo. It takes a day or so to explore the new interface and do some research on the web to find out how to use it and a week or so to become used to it. One is forced to assume that the complainers are drooling morons who would be unable to cope with learning anything new without being spoon-fed. Heaven help these people if they had to learn something as complicated as a new programming language.
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 09:13 · Score: 1

OS/2 works on almost everything including a Samsung Series 7 tablet from December 2011. And it works almost as well as Windows 8 on the same tablet. This is from an OS released in 1996....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rg_2hKrzROM&feature=youtu.be
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 09:14 · Score: 0

By hiding useful and well-known functionality in favor of a lowest common denominator, non-business oriented interface and throwing it in your face every time the machine starts up. Then by adding built-in advertising that 1) wastes bandwidth, 2) wastes screen space, and 3) potentially puts competitors' ads on your company's machines and forces it on your employees. Then add to that the fact that all of the major speed improvements already existed in the previous version, but weren't active by default. Then throw in a bonus UFIA (google it) by making software developers unsure whether you're going to continue supporting the tools and libraries they use.
Microsoft. SMRT.
Advertising?? The only place you are exposed to "built in advertising" is if you choose to go in to the metro news/content apps. The alternative being visiting news sites in the browser, with advertising. And you are actually claiming that Windows 7 was throttled on purpose?? That is an extraordinary claim that is going to require some extraordinary evidence.
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 09:16 · Score: 0

Microsoft didn't really make large gains in the computer market until XP, when people started buying PCs to go on the internet. As we now know, you don't need a full computer to do that, and in fact having one is a liability for most people. Nowadays, you can use a tablet, or a phone, or the computer built into your TV. There is every chance that the PC market as a whole will shrink to the same level of penetration it was at back in the early 2000s, and that will absolutely hurt Microsoft more than any other company.
Re:nope by Alex+Belits · 2013-04-19 09:16 · Score: 1

That would be false. The enterprise embraced OS/2 and Windows NT while the consumers were using Windows 95/98.
No. Stop rewriting history.
OS/2 was promoted for very large enterprises and competed with Unix, mainframes (from the same IBM), etc. on the server side, and in "thick embedded" devices. Desktops were completely and entirely Windows almost everywhere since Windows 3.1 was released, and the only transitions were between three Windows lines (3, 95 and NT).

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Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 09:20 · Score: 0

Nowadays, if W8/Metro is what Microsoft expects the planet to use, they may be in for a shock. No serious enterprise will touch it (outside of certain "Platinum Partners" who drink Redmond-flavored koolaid by the tanker-truck), since it (currently) hampers the hell out of work. When home users buy a PC, they want a frickin' PC - and not some over-spec'd tablet with a keyboard lashed onto it.
How does replacing a pop-up start menu with a full page start menu, but otherwise make the OS faster in every way (boot, sleep/resume, use) and fully backwards compatible "hamper the hell out of work". I get that the new start menu can be jarring, and that the need to click once to get to traditional desktop mode can be irritating, but I'm really lost in the Slashdot hyperbole of how extremely bad this is. I agree that metro and desktop could have smoother co-existence, and better defaults to stay with one or the other for the people who want that. But as I have and use Win8 on a new non-touch laptop, I think the exaggerations are ridiculous.
There are applications in my old start menu, that I could find by typing their name that the Metro start menu doesn't show at all, even if I start typing their name. .
Any examples?
Re:nope by rahvin112 · 2013-04-19 09:21 · Score: 1

The Consumer and Entertainment divisions don't make money. That is unless you mean to include Windows in that split.
Then you are stuck with questions of how to split windows between two companies when the code base for server, desktop and phone are all unified as of version 8.0.
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 09:32 · Score: 0

MS market dominance is the result of a multifaceted approach, not one thing or another. Network effects, software pricing, software features, a vast army of sales people, microsoft 'partners', donations to schools and comp sci depts around the country, encouragement of MS-only shops, a variety of coersive techniques, etc.
If they have gone into decline, it's because Apple has dominated "cool" for the past decade and people have found their product irressitable.
Re:nope by Darinbob · 2013-04-19 09:39 · Score: 1

I think Windows was accepted in enterprise because it's what ran on PCs and PCs with DOS were the safe standard for individual computers (ie, those competing with minis and mainframes). Plus MS-DOS was popular in the office and so Windows gained acceptance by being from Microsoft, as opposed to the competing PC GUIs of the time. I don't think there was a connection with what consumers had at home, since the original PCs grew faster in the office than for home use where the market was more diverse.
Re:nope by Darinbob · 2013-04-19 09:41 · Score: 1

Too big to succeed?
Re:nope by thomst · 2013-04-19 09:43 · Score: 2

dcnjoe60 averred:

Along the way, there were numerous failings - Windows 3.0, Windows 95 (while successful, was buggy) Windows ME, Windows Vista.
Windows 3.0 was not a failure. In terms of both enthusiastic adoption by consumers, and financially for Microsoft, it was a major success. Yes, it was buggy. That didn't matter to the marketplace.
Likewise, Windows 95 was a major success for Microsoft, by the same metrics. It was, to borrow a term from a certain self-aggrandizing billionaire, HUGE, both in the corporate and consumer marketplaces.
But you're dead right about ME and Vista. People reacted to both as if they were dead rats - and rightly so. Dell even forced Microsoft to offer its corporate customers a downgrade path - buy a PC with Vista, get a license to replace the OS with XP for free.

--
Check out my novel.
Re:nope by jader3rd · 2013-04-19 09:46 · Score: 1

it's extremely jarring because it serves no other purpose than to tie you into metro apps downloaded through the marketplace.
That may not be true. What's the point of booting into a computer without running any programs? There is rarely is one. So by landing at the application launcher first, the user can start by launching their applications immediately. So instead of loading up to a non-responsive desktop while the CPU churns and disk pages from all of the on-boot, on-log in tasks, pressing the Windows button, hoping that it'll remain open long enough to start that first task; in Windows 8 the user gets a responsive Start Screen to launch their first application.
Re:nope by stigmerger · 2013-04-19 09:50 · Score: 1

Active Directory [...] is nothing but a prepackaged LDAP database that is pretty much guaranteed to work.
works on any number of computers, up to one.
Re:nope by Darinbob · 2013-04-19 09:50 · Score: 1

Well, every single one of the metro apps are stupid for the office. So you unpin all of them. Then you're left with ugly square icons for all the apps you really do use. Plus you have to manually pin all the apps you use most often, or else you're stuck opening up the "all apps" view and scrolling through that. If you have to pin your apps in metro then it's even simple to just pin the apps on the desktop start bar instead or to create shortcuts, making metro start screen redundant.
The main advantage of the start menu was not for your commonly used apps anyway. It was there to help you find stuff you forgot about or for the infrequently used stuff. Start menu helped well with that, and on MacOS the "Applications" folder helps as well, both of which are much less cumbersome than the "all apps" view with side scrolling.
It's not that metro start screen is bad, but that it does not improve anything at all and actually makes things less convenient. Yes, I know, some fans will say the feature to just start typing an app name is good, but you don't need metro or the start screen for that feature.
Re:nope by Darinbob · 2013-04-19 09:54 · Score: 1

Yes, the boot times are faster, however these are not normal full boots. Windows 8 uses a hybrid hibernation mode, where it terminates all applications (ie, logs out) and then hibernates the windows system. If you do a full boot it is only slightly faster than Win7.
I actually had a problem awhile back with a new video card driver, where it would boot up with a black screen. Ultimate cause seems to be that windows never did a full boot after the driver updates and I had to manually force a real shutdown to fix it.
Re:nope by Holi · 2013-04-19 09:58 · Score: 1

you can't rdp with out windows, even if your client isn't windows your host is. So you do most of your admin stuff on windows, your just accessing it remotely. I do the same I manage my network via my mac, using rdp to either the servers or a desktop. That means I make heavy use of windows and my mac acts like a thin client.

--
Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 10:00 · Score: 0

You are the one making up bullshit.
OS/2 was a crap server product and never had significant marketshare there. It did have a pretty large installed base as an "enterprise desktop", particularly in the finance and insurance industries with IBM backends.
Re:nope by Dishevel · 2013-04-19 10:05 · Score: 4, Interesting

95, ME, and Vista were failures.
98, XP, and 7 have been decent.

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Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 10:06 · Score: 0

It's basally Stockholm syndrome. People have been dealing with the old crappy interface so long they see it's flaws as "endearing" or "not really it's fault", whereas the new one is seen as trying to 'fix something that's not broken".
The unfortunate truth is the start menu needs to die in a fire, but replacing it with metro is an uphill battle because metro is only marginally less crappy than the start menu, and that isn't good enough to justify retraining all the Grognards who don't want to admit they've been putting up with crap for so long.
Re:nope by techno-vampire · 2013-04-19 10:08 · Score: 1

Whoever modded you up doesn't know jack about computing in the enterprise.

This is Slashdot. More likely the first person to mod the OP up was simply too young to remember that far back and the rest of the up-mods were nothing more than Me Too.

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Re:nope by sincewhen · 2013-04-19 10:08 · Score: 2

When looking back at the adoption of Windows, don't neglect the fact that Microsoft did some clever (though perhaps not entirely legal) deals with PC makers to ensure that Windows came pre-loaded for home and SMB markets, and gave favourable enterprise licensing for larger businesses to ensure adoption.

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-- Braden's law of data: All data spends some of its lifetime in an excel spreadsheet.
Re:nope by sincewhen · 2013-04-19 10:12 · Score: 1

Back when Microsoft was in trouble with the DOJ I hoped that they would be broken up. Not to destroy the company, but as you suggest, to give renewed focus on their target customers and reduce infighting.

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-- Braden's law of data: All data spends some of its lifetime in an excel spreadsheet.
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 10:17 · Score: 0

So because people like the start button you get sad. Your subjective opinion means more then everyone else's usability and productivity? Awesome.
Re:nope by The+Grim+Reefer · 2013-04-19 10:19 · Score: 2

95, ME, and Vista were failures. 98, XP, and 7 have been decent.
I thought 2K was better than XP personally. And 98 was crap. 98se however fixed most of what was bad about 98.
Re:nope by war4peace · 2013-04-19 10:20 · Score: 1

While well thought out, there is a very important aspect that you neglect. It was hinted at, but not bluntly called out. That aspect is that a huge part of the reason Windows went into the workplace was because people were familiar with it at home.
Um, not really. Windows was embraced by corporations because when that happened, Linux GUI was non-existent and there was really nothing else to pick.

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...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
Re:nope by mvar · 2013-04-19 10:24 · Score: 2

It has been written again and again by many slashdotters, every time a stupid article came up about the supposed "downfall" of microsoft because of the Windows 8 failure and low sales. Ok tablets and smartphones are selling like shit, but most people still have their 5-year-old or so PCs/laptops around with windows XP or 7. Unless you're into gaming, there's just no need to do any fucking upgrade. Why go out and buy a new laptop with windows 8 or upgrade your existing windows to 8 ? Will it make browsing or receiving emails or writing a document or watching a video faster or better ? No. Will people stop using windows anytime soon? Again no. Why? Just look at the alternatives: OSX ? You need a Mac which is expensive. Linux? Nope, if you ask any casual user they wouldn't consider it for a bit. Hell, i'm into the IT industry and i have colleagues who are laughing at the idea of switching to a Linux OS because they want something that "just works". So no, windows ain't going away in the near future. As for the enterprise, AD/Exchange are a big plus but i think the biggest advantage for Microsoft comes from Office and more specifically Excel. The only change that might hurt MS in the enterprise is the movement of big applications towards a web-based model where the user will only need a browser to use the application.
Re: nope by Gilmoure · 2013-04-19 10:29 · Score: 1

*golf clap*

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I drank what? -- Socrates
Re:nope by Luckyo · 2013-04-19 10:30 · Score: 1

Another "this is the decade of linux on desktop"?
I have a feeling we've been here before. A lot.
Re:nope by SplashMyBandit · 2013-04-19 10:30 · Score: 1

There is also the fact that Microsoft also gained a lot of sales as hardware increased in capability. Through graphics changes from low-res mono to color to full color to hi-def resolution; from tiny memory limits on DOS to 16-bit to 32-bit to 64-bit; from desktop to laptop to corporate server. Each time Microsoft got a sale and clipped the ticket for enormous cash flows. Each time a new version of Windows came out for better hardware Microsoft was able to make just enough changes to the API that their competition had to scramble to keep up - which gave Microsoft advantages.
The biggest change is not heterogeneous computing, although customers are now comfortable with this, but the fact that even tablets are 'good' enough that we change them due to fashion cycles and not due to fundamental changes in hardware or software architectures. Desktops are still being bought, as they are great for certain tasks (eg. gaming, graphics design/CAD etc), but they also now last far longer before needing replacement. It is this that is changing Microsoft from a growth company to a staid (large, but) stable company. For a stock market addicted to capital gains rather than dividends Microsoft has been a poor buy for a long time. It means reporting about it is uninteresting and consumers find nothing new and innovative with it.
Microsoft will survive, but without the rapid changes in hardware and software architecture it used to bring (and consumers would crave, rather than resist as the do with new versions of Windows now) it no longer dominates consumer nor developer thought (the latter being particularly important, and Linux was successful in breaking Microsoft's mindshare hold over bleeding-edge developers at least half a decade ago).
As a developer I'm pleased I invested resources in developing for Java. That means I can do desktop, web and Android very easily (Mac is also covered, but iOS is problematic - fortunately Oracle and others are hard at work adapting standard Java for both iOS and Android [to replace the non-standard Android Java libraries]). Java is not the best platform in all (or, some would say, any) area, but it is getting to be nearly as ubiquitous as C. The reason I adopted and stuck with Java is because I knew computing platforms would change (and will change again in the future, in ways no one can predict) but I do know that Java is committed to having a portable language and libraries to go to whatever is coming. So I'm pleased with my decision to 'invest' (develop products and knowledge) in that technology. This should be a lesson for all technologists - the only constant is change. So the wise strategic choice is to adopt technologies that are designed to mitigate the inevitable change.
Re:nope by s.petry · 2013-04-19 10:31 · Score: 2

Which does not explain the adoption of Word over WordPerfect, Excel over Lotus, Outlook over any of the thousands of POP/IMAP clients, etc... A piece of a puzzle is not the whole puzzle.

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-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 10:34 · Score: 0

It's going to rot? Really? Show me where MS's domination on a production platform is threated. Do you honestly think that people using Android phones and iPads are a threat to full functioning computers that aren't just running a bunch of small apps?

I do. The home market for computers is rather well-served by basic apps and things you can do on the web. Email, news, shopping, text editing, listening to music, maybe watching movies or shows. Add in a spreadsheet, and connectors for a monitor (for phones, not so much tablets) and full-size keyboard, and it's not common for a home user to miss anything from their home computer. If I didn't do software development, and assuming my devices would run okay without a base computer, there's not really anything I need my laptop for that an iPad couldn't handle.
Re:nope by breeze95 · 2013-04-19 10:50 · Score: 1

the only reason they became accepted into the enterprise is because that is what consumers were familiar with Sorry but you're talking out of your ass. If a "consumer" owned a PC at all at the time that Windows started to make inroads to the enterprise it was either Apple, Atari or Commodore. Windows made inroads because MS-DOS was the defacto standard thanks to IBM and when the GUI was ready for primetime Microsoft was already embedded in the culture. Whoever modded you up doesn't know jack about computing in the enterprise. It's kind of pathetic when you stop to think of it. But now that model is going to rot from the ground up, at least three other major players have good inroads to eat Microsoft's lunch. It's going to rot? Really? Show me where MS's domination on a production platform is threated. Do you honestly think that people using Android phones and iPads are a threat to full functioning computers that aren't just running a bunch of small apps? Please. And Windows will still be the largest marketshare (by far) for the home user who still decides to support a PC into the next decade. Windows 8 marks the beginning of the fall of Microsoft. I seem to recall hearing the same thing around here when Windows ME was about a year old too. Lo and behold, the next release from MS made Microsoft more money and embedded them further into the end user culture more than any other product ever has.
When Windows ME debut there were no practical alternatives to to the Windows platform. We don't know to what extent Windows ME failure played into customers generally negative view of the company's products and product quality. I would bet it played a big part. Perhaps, Microsoft current problems started with Windows ME failure where customers realize that Microsoft product quality can be terrible bad. Android operation system is projected to run on more devices than Windows (mobile, desktop, laptop) by 2017. Currently, Android is the world's most popular operation system; however, windows runs on more devices which will change by 2017. And to answer your question. Yes, Android and iOS powered devices are a serious threat to your so called "full functioning computers". What do you think is the purpose of Windows 8? You haven't been paying attention.
Re:nope by sdoca · 2013-04-19 10:50 · Score: 4, Informative

Many (many) years ago, I used the MS-DOS version of WordPerfect. It was what was on the computers at school and on my friends' computers (those who actually had a PC in their home). I was good at it and was happy with it.

Windows 3.1 came out and WordPerfect launched a new version for it. It was horrible! We used it at work and I was always frustrated with how I had to "reveal codes" to get any meaningful text formatting done.

When I bought my first computer, it was mainly for writing papers for university, so a good word processing application was key. At the store, I asked what other word processing programs were available and I played with Word 2.0 for a few minutes. It was beautiful! I went home with Word.

That may not explain why others went with Word over WordPerfect, but it explains why I did.
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 10:51 · Score: 0

They didn't have unique products or a GUI implementation (supposedly stolen from Jobs), that was the "other" Microsoft. Now get off my lawn.
Re:nope by Synerg1y · 2013-04-19 10:55 · Score: 1

+1 insightful.
I still however think that win 8 was mostly focused on as a competitive mobile platform rather than a PC OS. While it works as both, I can't think of a single bad thing I've heard recently about windows 8 mobile. 7 on the other hand was a monstrosity on anything mobile, it just wasn't designed for any of the unique challenges present by mobile devices like say... a touch screen? :) It makes perfect sense that the next iteration would focus on the market they're weak in.
Re:nope by Anne+Thwacks · 2013-04-19 10:56 · Score: 2, Informative

laughing at the idea of switching to a Linux OS because they want something that "just works".
Well Linux "just works" for me. OTOH, Windows, other than as a pre-install, has persistently failed to work. It is a fatal error where the OS does not come with drivers for the network card, and expects you to download the drivers over the net! Assuming you can boot from a CD, you can install Linux (Or *BSD) in about 40 minutes, unattended. Good luck installing WIndows in 40 hours - with constant user intervention because of all the fixes and reboots.
I even had a Thinpad T43p that came with XP - then one day stopped running XP "because of a hardware problem" - All attempts at a reinstall from the Lenovo restore partition or a CD failed, but three years later is still running Ubuntu and in daily use!
Windows - "it just f*cks up"

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Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
Re:nope by VortexCortex · 2013-04-19 11:00 · Score: 1

Uhhh, if they break up MS into new companies, one should be the fucking Office Suite (and the other applications and what not), one should be the OS (hint: "home" is not fucking different that "pro" other than a few limitations artificially imposed on the former), and the other should be games.
The shareholders would have to be convinced that throwing away free money by not porting Office, MSSQL, or Exchange (etc.) to Mac or Linux. Face it: Folks by Windows because of the vendor lock-in, not because Windows is actually any good -- even if it were.
Re:nope by Anomalyst · 2013-04-19 11:05 · Score: 1

Im not a MS fanboi, by any means. But do not neglect group policies and well integrated dynamic DHCP/DNS and a plethora of dirt cheap MCSE H1B monkeys to use it. Linux has a ways to go before it reaches that level of out of the box ease of use in the enterprise. These point&click capabilities will keep it in the enterprise until they are equalled or surpassed (not in the forseeable future, IMHO). A properly organised Group Policy and LDAP ou heirarchy makes adding/modifying users and machines almost painless.

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There is no right to feel safe thru security vaudeville at the expense of everyone's freedom, privacy and tax money.
Re:nope by erroneus · 2013-04-19 11:10 · Score: 1

Microsoft's failures have had a cumulative effect. Non-tech people simply do not trust Microsoft products. It's the main reason why Windows phone is such a failure.
Re:nope by Will.Woodhull · 2013-04-19 11:12 · Score: 1

I moved out of the Windows ecosystem many years ago, so I'm no longer tuned into what motivates people who continue to use Windows.
But from where I stand (somewhere in between CG graphics and web design), it looks like Microsoft has made it more difficult to modify workflows from WinXP to their newer versions than to continue to run WinXP as a virtual machine under a Linux distro. There is very little retraining needed by the minions, yet all the advantages of new hardware, disk management, clusters, etc. And of course the improved security of running the most vulnerable legacy stuff in a VM.
So whether Win8 is the best WinEvah or another dog doesn't matter, since the use of WinXP in VMs under Linux is a better way to go, whether you are looking at the economies, the retraining issues, future proofing, or any other business measure.
P.S.--- While I know I won't get any points for saying so, Microsoft also has to replace Ballmer with someone who knows how to run a business if it is to continue as a going concern. The guy is like a 14 year old kid who has been put in the driver's seat of a bulldozer. He is able to smash anything that is in his way. But he doesn't know how to keep his monster in repair, and he is finally running low on fuel and probably doesn't know how to refuel it, either. (Is that close enough to a car analogy to balance out the Ballmer critique?)

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Will
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 11:19 · Score: 0

Why couldn't they just make it boot to a responsive desktop rather than an unresponsive one? The prime reason the desktop is unresponsive when Windows loads is because it is still loading lots of other crap. If the crap needs to be loaded, then surely it will need to be loaded regardless of whether it boots to the Metro screen or the traditional desktop. Your reasoning just doesn't hold water.
Re:nope by im_thatoneguy · 2013-04-19 11:35 · Score: 1

Grid based icons are way more efficient than a single list. You have two axis to arrange on which means for any distance X from the start menu the grid based start menu has 4x as many icons.
Re:nope by thegarbz · 2013-04-19 11:35 · Score: 1

How does replacing a pop-up start menu with a full page start menu, but otherwise make the OS faster in every way (boot, sleep/resume, use) and fully backwards compatible "hamper the hell out of work". I get that the new start menu can be jarring, and that the need to click once to get to traditional desktop mode can be irritating, but I'm really lost in the Slashdot hyperbole of how extremely bad this is.
You don't seem to understand quite what they have done. It's not just the new interface, that disappears with a button click, but rather fundamental features of the OS are hard to use. Sit a person down infront of a Windows 7 machine and ask him to shutdown the computer, takes a few seconds to figure out, now sit him in front of a Windows 8 machine, and in three days when he's still figuring it out show him things like the charm bar which has no visual que in the interface at all.
It's not JUST a fancy start button. It's a whole new way of interface design that has thrown away many years of UI research and made it impossible to figure out how to do basic things without a cheat sheet of how to do things. If that's where it ended then everything would be fine, but they've copied this design into every new product they are releasing. IE10 is a nightmare to use, the email app lacks even the basic functions of the free one that comes with Windows Live, and if you want to see a real clusterfuck of bad UI design take a look at a screenshot of some of the Office 2013 programs, note how they go out of their way to make sure you can't figure out where the content starts and the application ends. It's even worse in Excel.
The problem we have is that the start menu is just the beginning of our problems. It's quite poetic really.
Re:nope by vux984 · 2013-04-19 11:41 · Score: 1

Windows 8 marks the beginning of the fall of Microsoft.
Yeah, that's what they said with XP what with its "candy colored green start button"... how did that turn out? Oh right, even today 10 years on huge groups still refuse to let it go.
And then they said Vista was the beginning of the fall, but it turned out most of the issues were just the growing pains to get to the now almost beloved Windows 7.
So now, Windows 8 is the beginning of the end and this time its real? Whatever.
But now that model is going to rot from the ground up,
One day perhaps, but not any time soon. Lots of big companies are still stuck on IE6 and so forth. Tons of line-of-business applications are built on microsoft tech. Its pretty entrenched and isn't going away just because you got a new chromebook at home.
at least three other major players have good inroads to eat Microsoft's lunch
Who?
Apple? They're not even consumer friendly -- they aren't remotely enterprise friendly.
Android? ChromeOS? Linux? Give me a break. There's a lot of places for competing non-Microsoft systems to get some traction, and the market will be better overall if they do, but microsoft is going to be not just a 'player' in the enterprise market, but the 'dominant player' for the foreseeable future.
When you talk about the "fall of Microsoft" and someone "eating their lunch" about the worst I see realistically happening is that Microsoft follows the footsteps of IBM... and that hasn't really worked out all that badly for IBM.
Re:nope by war4peace · 2013-04-19 11:42 · Score: 1

Add me to your crowd, please.

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...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 11:44 · Score: 0

Wouldn't it actually be the 10 years of profiting from XP while doing absolutely nothing to maintain their dominant position that marked the beginning? Vista was just the oh-crap-we-need-to-release-something-new rushed-out-the-door release...it's quality (or lack thereof) is just a reflection of the circumstances surrounding it's inception and development.
Re:nope by Will.Woodhull · 2013-04-19 11:45 · Score: 1

Parent post is right on. I was there at that time.
Microsoft succeeded because DOS had become dominant, thanks to IBM and its liberal policies toward PC clones in the 1980s. Businesses found that they needed PCs with Lotus 1-2-3 (or some other spreadsheet) and Word Perfect to stay competitive. Then when Microsoft broke its contractual arrangements with IBM and released a version of Windows that ran adequately under DOS (Win3.0), the consumer market burst into existence. It was mostly based on what today would be called piracy, with consumers buying a Win3.0/DOS3.3 box and installing Word Perfect from floppies they copied from their work computers. A lot of secretaries, legal assistants, and other clerical workers gained highly salable job skills that way, often with the clandestine support of their managers, who were hungry for staff who knew how to use word processors or spreadsheets.
Win95 was the first consumer Windows that ran, more or less, as its own OS rather than as a growth on top of DOS. It was not very good, and there was a strong market for Win3.11 (Windows for Workgroups) that continued until Win98 came out.
Good versions of Windows were 3.1, 3.11 (very good, especially with the nascent MS Office package), Win98 (also very good after the first round of upgrades), and WinXP. Win95, Win2000, and everything after WinXP were not so good, and a lot of serious users reverted to earlier versions.

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Will
Re:nope by war4peace · 2013-04-19 11:48 · Score: 1

Word was better than WordPerfect. Excel was included in an Office Suite, which was a very smart step from Microsoft, and so was Outlook.
The reason to buy an office suite is similar to the reason to buy any all-in-one product out there. It does more than one thing, its features act consistently and there's unity in the way it works. Also costs less than 7 different products from 7 different makers.

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...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 11:51 · Score: 0

So wait... Windows made inroads into the enterprise because "MS-DOS was the defacto standard," yet if a consumer owned a PC at that time, it was "either Apple, Atari, or Commodore"? Unless those Apple/Atari/Commodore PCs were running the defacto standard of MS-DOS, you seem to be jumping back and forth between eras.
Windows NT was released in July 1993, six months after MS-DOS 6.0. I think it's fair to say that the era of Apple/Atari/Commodore "consumer dominance" was well over by then.
Re:nope by geekoid · 2013-04-19 12:05 · Score: 1

" Windows went into the workplace was because people were familiar with it at home."
that is backwards. People where using windows and computers in the office work place well before they had them at home.
And people would bring word and excel home from work so they could work from home.

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The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Re:nope by SmurfButcher+Bob · 2013-04-19 12:09 · Score: 2

Errr... that's a tad backwards I think. Home users have no relevance to the enterprise; to the contrary, they are historically driven BY the enterprise. You may have omitted the decade+ time where there WERE no "home users". We did not adopt PCs because "Sally the Secretary" had one at home.
Windows made it into the enterprise simply because of legacy DOS applications. DOS was somewhat simple to write software on. And the PC was somewhat simple to build hardware for.
Contrast that with a Mac. To write a business app required everything you'd do on a PC, and then... 300 hours f*ing with font colors. For an accounting package. Or inventory. Or... yeah, I'll take my DBase or Foxbase in DOS, please. Spend six hours of your life f*ing around with making an 80column print job line up. Now we get to repeat that on screen? And it really did come down to that. There was no OO, everything was top-down, and mice were for pussies.
Windows, more than a GUI, was an API to make it cheaper to write software.
"Visual Basic", all that junk was an effort to make it cheaper to write software.
Because in the beginning, there wasn't any. *Everything* was vertical. Even .jpeg decoding had to be written, yourself.
The strategy was a cornerstone of the "Application Barrier to Entry". If you don't know that phrase, you are missing the basis of MS anti-trust. .NET is just a continued tactic for chasing the 1000 Monkey Coding Model, which makes it cheaper to write software... put 10,000 monkeys on a keyboard and you'll get Hamlet? Put 1,000 monkeys in VS.NET and you'll get working code. THAT is today's strategy behind how MS stays in the enterprise.
Some home users picked up PCs at home due to familiarity, but most home buys were for "that's where the software is", and also "jackass website requires IE". Or "AOL sux on mac". Or, "game requires PC". There weren't too many copies of Wolf3d running on a Mac as I recall. And OS2 was stillborn.
It is funny how such things evolve. Windows is entrenched in SKorea due to an e-commerce law; when SSL was new, the SK Govt passed a law requiring a specific form of encryption be used for all e-commerce traffic. The only accepted implementation ever made was an ActiveX control. Can you guess why ActiveX was the chosen tactic? It was cheapest to develop that way. Cheap!! The very reason the ActiveX model was invented, and exposed to the browser. And Excel. And Word. And Outlook. And any other application that cared to use it. Hopefully one of our SK readers will chime in with how that situation has evolved over time, since then. But it all started with cost to develop; users were never even considered. Every website out there had to push that control, and every user wanting online commerce had to run IE. Period. The enterprise drove home buys there, for sure.
You do hit the nail on the head later on regarding any-device stuff. Windows 8 is just the continuation of the 1000 monkey model, and it is likely a response to Oracle. With targets of desktop, mobile, and server... you get to pick what you'll develop in, and that dictates your cost. You can use Java, and have one codebase, one skillset, and one dev team handle it all. You can go Apple, and have a codebase for IOS, another for MacOS, another for your (linux?) server that has nothing to do with the other two, and... yeah, skillset requirements all over, and probably 3 teams that need to talk really well, and a project manager from hell. Or, you can do it with one team using .NET, single project, same skillset, and even the same GUI concept between desktop, mobile, and server-side widget crap.
If you consider some fictitious company the scope of Fedex, rolling a from-scratch solution for every form-factor that they CAN use in the office, warehouse, loading bay, airplane, truck, and wrist - your options are Oracle... or .NET. Those really are the two choices that don't implicitly involve sep

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help me i've cloned myself and can't remember which one I am
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 12:10 · Score: 0

Last time, did Amazon and Google start requiring special permission to use Windows on corporate computers?
Re:nope by Proudrooster · 2013-04-19 12:17 · Score: 1

AmiPro was better than Word. Wordperfect was best for experienced clerical staff and task Automation (macro programming).
I agree, the reason that MS won was the Microsoft Office Pro Package which bundled Word, Excel, Powerpoint, Access, Viso, and Project. Once MS crushed the competition products began to slowly become "sold separately" as we see today with Viso and Project. I think a recent strategical error of Microsoft's was not releasing a version of Office for iOS, but it looks like they will try to play catch-up in 2014 with an iPad release. I truly believe that Balmer thought the iPad would fail to gain marketshare and mocked it.
Microsoft is in no immediate danger, but in my opinion they are overplaying their hand by trying too squeeze to tight. They need to adopt the Amazon model of giving more than the customer expects. Instead of charge more than the customer expects as in the case of their new licensing model.
Apple has also made a few blunders, the iPad is not a full laptop replacement (to protect the Air) and their cloud services are a disaster. If Apple gave the iPad the ability to replace a desktop and shored up the cloud backend, it could almost be checkmate. Meanwhile, Chrome books are gaining market share while both companies calculate their next moves.
It will be interesting to see this play out and I am particularly interested in the next XBOX and the "always on" Internet requirement.
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 12:36 · Score: 0

As a developer I'm pleased I invested resources in developing for Java. That means I can do desktop, web and Android very easily (Mac is also covered, but iOS is problematic - fortunately Oracle and others are hard at work adapting standard Java for both iOS and Android [to replace the non-standard Android Java libraries]). Java is not the best platform in all (or, some would say, any) area, but it is getting to be nearly as ubiquitous as C. The reason I adopted and stuck with Java is because I knew computing platforms would change (and will change again in the future, in ways no one can predict) but I do know that Java is committed to having a portable language and libraries to go to whatever is coming. So I'm pleased with my decision to 'invest' (develop products and knowledge) in that technology. This should be a lesson for all technologists - the only constant is change. So the wise strategic choice is to adopt technologies that are designed to mitigate the inevitable change.
Any decent developer should have no problems picking up new languages and platforms.
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 12:41 · Score: 0

BYOD is just a bunch of corporate bullshit to get employees to pay for their own hardware that they need to do work. Forget that. If an employer wants you to work on a mobile device, they can pay for the device.
Re:nope by BenoitRen · 2013-04-19 12:42 · Score: 1

Along the way, there were numerous failings - Windows 3.0, Windows 95 (while successful, was buggy) Windows ME, Windows Vista.

I'm used to seeing Windows Me and Vista on this list, but Windows 3.0 and Windows 95? Also, how is Windows 95 a failure if it was successful in spite of bugs? How was the first release of Windows 95 any more buggy than, say, Windows 98 First Edition?
Re:nope by roc97007 · 2013-04-19 12:43 · Score: 1

Wouldn't it actually be the 10 years of profiting from XP while doing absolutely nothing to maintain their dominant position that marked the beginning? Vista was just the oh-crap-we-need-to-release-something-new rushed-out-the-door release...it's quality (or lack thereof) is just a reflection of the circumstances surrounding it's inception and development.
I have to disagree. Longhorn was in development since 2002 (if the wiki can be believed) and Vista was released in 2006. That's quite a long development cycle.
Perhaps you meant, when Microsoft realized Longhorn wasn't going to fly, they suddenly realized oh crap we need to release something and rushed out a subset of what they were working on.
The point is, they weren't necessarily doing "absolutely nothing", they were just not doing particularly successful things.

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Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 12:49 · Score: 0

Windows was perfectly poised to fill that need (Apples cost too much, GEM had issues, and Amiga was too much like an appliance to be flexible.)
Windows didn't become dominant because it was better in any shape or form, but because Microsoft already had a lock-in with DOS on the business platform (i.e. IBM clones). Amiga in particular was technologically superior, both OS and hardware wise, and that includes the other alternatives (except for UNIX, which was servicing a completely different segment). If you generalize "Amiga" as inflexible or an appliance you are just flaunting your ignorance.
I suppose you are like most people who only remember gaming on the A500 and maybe "custom chips" and extrapolate that to a rigid console like experience. We'll set aside the fact that most ODMs are actually using custom SoCs these days, licencing a more or less commoditized core and bolting on the logic they need for their particular use (Apple, Samsung, Qualcomm, nVidia with ARM, PowerVR etc.).
In reality, both Amiga hardware and AmigaOS were far more flexible than the competition. There are many amazing details that are lost in time and to US/Apple centric revisionism of history, such as a bootblock structure that allowed putting your own (bootable) filesystems in the bootsectors, basically no limitations on naming, number and bootpriority of partitions, full path independence for the OS/apps (assigns), an officially sanctioned way to replace kernel routines etc. Not to mention the fully pre-emptive multitasking and prioritized user input/feedback (something Linux is still in the process of gaining, amazingly, with scaffolding ranging from the completely fair scheduler to Wayland). Amiga hardware had an autoconfiguring bus back in 1985, while Windows users were still in IRQ hell up to 2001 (XP). Even the lowly A500 exposed this bus (and its CPU) on an expansion slot, which led to a thriving commercial after market industry, including harddisks, memory, even CPU upgrades. The 'proper' desktop Amiga (1/2/3/4000) had multiple expansion slots like any modern PC. The Amiga design was so flexible the custom chips didn't actually need to be used. Audio, video, the serial bus, IDE, amongst others, could be retargeted to add-on hardware, even new CPUs while the original remained working side by side. At some point you had plugin cards that had a whole new computer on them (two different CPU architectures both running actual OS bits on them, graphics chip, memory and SCSI, just to name one example). This led to things like the Draco (third party Amiga without custom chips) and having a faster 68k Mac emulation (68060) than was possible with actual physical Apple hardware (68040). If you were in design/graphics and knew anything about anything you would be running QuarkExpress and Photoshop on an Amiga, at a fraction of the cost.
Regarding business applications, even a lowly A500 ran Wordperfect fine (yes, there was a native WP for Amiga), and arguably even Microsoft was developing for Amiga (a very buggy Basic).
Seeing the success of the expansion market, Commodore engineers were about to switch to more commoditized hardware such as PCI, when Commodore went bankrupt in 1994. During the Escom period Motorola was interested in supporting PPC development. QNX was being eyed for the kernel more than a decade and a half before RIM/Blackberry thought it would be a great idea. Amiga was following the exact same path Apple walked, except with a headstart. Others wanted to be like Amiga (Jean Louis Gasse of Be Inc. had an 'Amiga 96' licence plate). Some feared the potential of Amiga in more capable hands (Microsoft was there at the bankruptcy proceedings). The community was more loyal, cohesive and supportive than Apple fans. But it all fell down with management and successive bouts of incomprehension on the part of new proprietors.

When home users buy a PC, they want a frickin' PC - and not some over-spec'd tablet with a keyboard lashed onto it.
The
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 12:54 · Score: 0

The beginning? Yes. But if the shareholders don't pull out they could operate for 30 years on their accumulated gouges I mean profits.
Re:nope by roc97007 · 2013-04-19 12:59 · Score: 4, Insightful

> How does replacing a pop-up start menu with a full page start menu, but otherwise make the OS faster in every way (boot, sleep/resume, use) and fully backwards compatible "hamper the hell out of work".
Well, because it doesn't do that at all. Basic things work radically differently, the visual cues that help non-geeks navigate computers are gone, the fullscreen paradigm doesn't fit well on large dense monitors, and touch gestures don't work well with a mouse. And even if all of these things were surmountable, the training issues alone are nightmarish.
When we (just recently) rolled out Win7, we did some pilot programs and app testing as part of due diligence, but we did not have to do user training or amp up the helpdesk because 7 behaved as people have been led to expect. 8 .... well, geeks can eventually figure out anything, so I'm sure there are alpha nerds out there that have put in the time necessary to learn to make 8 dance, but regular users don't want a GUI challenge, they want to run their apps and get their work done. It ain't gonna happen. We'll wait until something reasonable becomes available. Because 8 hampers the hell out of getting work done, for regular people.

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Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
Re:nope by roc97007 · 2013-04-19 13:07 · Score: 2

Side note: I don't understand why this is an issue. Who cares how long a computer takes to boot? Someone who boots a computer several times a day, I guess.
So...... who are those people? Alpha geeks, mostly. And there aren't enough of them to keep Microsoft in the big bucks. Microsoft has done a lot of work in the last several versions to make reboots rare. Because they are (relatively) rare these days, the time they take becomes less important.
There used to be a joke that a Real Programmer is someone who spends hours optimizing a loop that's only run once.
Personally, I only reboot when (a) installs require it, and (b) something really bad happens. It's a credit to Microsoft that B is significantly more rare these days.

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Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
Re:nope by roc97007 · 2013-04-19 13:14 · Score: 1

Not necessarily desktop. My company provides web services, and there is a huge Linux presence here.
The company started issuing tablets a year ago. Exclusively iPads. We looked at Win8, said no thanks. (Personally, I don't find the iPad that useful as a general computing device, so declined to be issued one.)
People issued laptops here have a choice of a Wintel device or a Macbook. About 40% choose the latter. (I'm not that enamored of Apple, chose a Win7 laptop. But Apple has a huge presence here.)
So, although this will probably not be the decade of linux on the desktop (unless you count iOS, which I don't) it's definitely the decade where Windows diminishes in the enterprise. At least from what I've seen personally.

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Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 13:33 · Score: 0

"Since Windows NT worked on IBM hardware plus all of the clones and IBM OS/2 mainly worked on IBM hardware (meaning the PS/2 line), Windows NT won out."
This is little more than an urban legend possibly fueled by propaganda from MS. OS/2 did not depend on PS/2's. It worked on clones. I was there, I used it.
Re:nope by roc97007 · 2013-04-19 13:46 · Score: 1

> Actually wasn't what is being said about Win8 identical to what was said about Vista?
This is a very good point.
Yes, what is being said about Win8 is very similar to what was said about Vista. And that's because Vista truly sucked. And as you know, a lot of businesses stuck with XP until 7 came out.
> And before that XP was a failure until sp1
Yes, there were complaints about XP until SP1 came out. (Also until people learned to turn off that garish Fisher-Price desktop theme.) But here's the difference:
After SP1, businesses adopted XP.
After SP1, businesses still declined to adopt Vista, despite the fact that XP was seven years old at that time. In fact, it isn't until NOW, 2013, twelve years after XP was released, that some businesses are starting to migrate off XP, to Win7. And some businesses are still using XP.
Think about that for a moment. For same length of time in which we've had 95, NT 3.51, NT4, 98, 98SE, 2000, XP, and Vista, for the same amount of time as we've seen all of those versions, a significant number of businesses have been using one single Microsoft OS: Windows XP.
So what kind of business penetration could Win8 possibly be expected to have in its lifetime? I'm thinking single digits.
Like Vista, after a service pack or three, Win8 might become marginally usable. But like Vista, by then, the mindshare damage will have been done. I'd argue that it's already happened.
ME? It's still reviled to this day.

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Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
Re:nope by roc97007 · 2013-04-19 13:47 · Score: 1

95, ME, and Vista were failures.
98, XP, and 7 have been decent.
....well, 98SE. Otherwise agree.

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Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
Re:nope by EETech1 · 2013-04-19 14:04 · Score: 1

For years I've been launching apps by pressing Control+Escape then "'R" then type the app name (CALC) at the run prompt.
I often have to use someone else's computer, and it's much easier to remember a few app names that haven't changed in over 10 years than to find my way around a strange start menu.
Everyone always asks how I got that program to open so fast! The newer launchers provide similar functionality without having to remember the exact executable name, so I'd think (haven't used Win8 or Gnome 3) that it would be something I could get used to (maybe even like) if I was forced to use those desktops. I'd hate to have to use a mouse to get there though!
Cheers!
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 14:10 · Score: 0

Just the opposite. You need a lesson in computer history. The PC was adopted at home because it was what people had at work. Buying a tablet to replace your PC at home is easy, doing it in the enterprise is not.
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 14:25 · Score: 0

What a waste of a fucking comment, asshole. You didn't even respond to the poster at all, just spat off some Linux dick sucking garbage no one gives a shit about. Please do fuck off.
Re:nope by drsmithy · 2013-04-19 14:42 · Score: 1

OS/2 was promoted for very large enterprises and competed with Unix, mainframes (from the same IBM), etc. on the server side, and in "thick embedded" devices.
Rubbish. Originally (ie: pre-IBM/Microsoft breakup):
Windows NT (OS/2 NT at the time) was designed and built to compete with UNIX and Netware.
OS/2 was going to be the high-end (ie: "business") user desktop.
DOS+Windows was going to be the low-end (ie: "home") user desktop.
Re:nope by iggymanz · 2013-04-19 15:33 · Score: 1

er, I know from sad experience once a company starts dealing with multiple clusters of those in disparate locations, it isn't simple anymore and it isn't solid
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 15:42 · Score: 0

Microsoft dominated by Windows 95. They dominated before that with Win 3.11/DOS/Office, but Win95 was the nail in the coffin for the client OS market.
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 15:48 · Score: 0

>As soon as IBM made a "minicomputer" as they were
Not to split hairs, but they were called "microcomputers," which is why Micro-Soft is named Micro-Soft. Mini computers were still as big as a bookshelf.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minicomputer
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 15:50 · Score: 0

Except that OS/2 2.0 ran quite well on any Intel machine that I ever put it on. The OS/2 1.x versions were in partnership with Microsoft and also ran on any Intel machine. By OS/2 2.x, the PS/2 was already on the decline.
Re:nope by dbIII · 2013-04-19 16:34 · Score: 1

The irony is that Windows 8 contains some great technology
Such as?
I'm still waiting for the stuff Balmer said was "already in Longhorn" in 2002, as a response to an Apple release.
Re:nope by s.petry · 2013-04-19 16:39 · Score: 1

Word crashed on any large document. Additionally, you had to purchase "Publisher" if you wanted to set up column based pages like Newspapers or Magazines. Word allowed you to drag and drop images to embed them, and as long as it didn't crash it was easy to make simple docs. The reason Adobe Framemaker has stayed around so long is that it's still better at making complex documents (technical manuals) than Word.
Excel had the same issue. It was easier than Lotus to get data in to cells, but in larger spread sheets it had a habit of crashing. The old saying at work was "save every 5 minutes so you don't lose too much" and many companies had policies that you had to save every X minutes because of it.
MS was easy for an all in 1 product from a single vendor, but those products were not very good compared to the competition. It took half a decade to fix stability problems in their office apps, and longer than that to build in functionality the competitors had before the monopoly put them out of business.

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-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
Re:nope by dbIII · 2013-04-19 16:44 · Score: 1

The failure of the MS Windows version of Wordperfect sealed it's fate, and a lot of that was blamed on it not having as much access to system libraries as MS Word so vastly reduced speed. For whatever reason it ended up as an inferior product so MS Word dominated. Excel, later MS Excel eventually became integrated enough that people could reliably cut and paste bits of spreadsheet into the MS Word they already had so was a winner over Lotus.
MS Outlook of course has been the default option delivered free with the OS (express) or the one delivered free with the office suite. As millions of virus infections, corrupted mailboxes and other consequences of bad design over the years have shown MS Outlook did not win on features over those other mail clients, but it's ubiquity meant the others had nothing left but the niche of people that thought MS Outlook wasn't good enough for them.
Re:nope by Alex+Belits · 2013-04-19 16:44 · Score: 1

Windows NT (OS/2 NT at the time) was designed and built to compete with UNIX and Netware.
Windows NT did not exist when OS/2 was being developed. Microsoft started it because they did not like working on OS/2 yet losing full control over it.

OS/2 was going to be the high-end (ie: "business") user desktop.
But it wasn't. At the time of release OS/2 was only adopted on small servers (as an alternative to Netware, but also for purposes that otherwise required Unix or mainframe) and semi-embedded devices (as an alternative to DOS). On desktops, Windows 3.1 - 3.11 was so entrenched, nothing was capable of displacing it.

DOS+Windows was going to be the low-end (ie: "home") user desktop.
Maybe in intentions of someone from IBM management, but they had no control over that. IBM didn't even produce consumer desktops at the time, they re-entered that market later, then exited again, with no real strategy behind it.

--
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
Re:nope by s.petry · 2013-04-19 16:53 · Score: 2

Huh? "the reason that MS won was the Microsoft Office Pro Package which bundled Word, Excel, Powerpoint, Access, Viso, and Project." I think you are confused and should check history. The original office was Word, Excel, Powerpoint, and a shitty mail client. Access was there, but it could only talk to it's own Database (weak unstable Paradox clone). Visio did not exist back then. Visio came out much later, and was only purchase by Microsoft a few years back (more than a few, but I'm not going to look up the dates). Visio has always been an additional cost. Project is also a late comer to the game, and was always an additional charge just like Visio. This may be helpful.

--
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
Re:nope by dbIII · 2013-04-19 16:54 · Score: 1

Actually 98 was crap until 98SE, and XP crashed a lot before it's first service pack. I saw Win95 after a lot of hype and waiting then installed linux instead. I came to 7 relatively late so can't comment on that.
Also who is Kelly Winners and why should we care?
Re:nope by dbIII · 2013-04-19 17:00 · Score: 1

It means the morning login sequence is just that bit longer - and startup is still longer than putting WinXP on an SSD to run exactly the same applications that you can run on win8 (assuming that they are not 64 bit, but hardly any of the popular programs are even in 2013!).
Re:nope by s.petry · 2013-04-19 17:03 · Score: 1

The reason Linux has been taking over more and more market in the server area is exactly because they don't have point click requirements As for the "Certified MSCE", it is a joke and everyone knows it.
MS traded flexibility for "easy", they admit that much. They wanted to ensure that anyone could manage anything with a GUI, no need for knowledge. That mentality is a failure, even small shops require a good amount of knowledge to set up and maintain (or you get hacked, perform like a politician).
Unix never died, it just migrated to a different *nix because of how flexible it is. Nearly every appliance doing the same thing MS's highly touted dynamic DNS/DHCP run Linux. Design the interface to make it work the way you want, if you want an interface. Script it to do what you want, if you want it scripted. Write your own code and use the APIs any way you want too. You can't do the same thing with MS, even with "Powershell".
A huge problem in the IT market has been the mind set that monkeys can do things well. Good MS Admins rarely have a MSCE because the actual value among IT people is laughable. If you say you have an RHCE/RHCA people say "wow", if you have a MSCE people hide their computers from you.

--
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
Re:nope by dbIII · 2013-04-19 17:06 · Score: 1

No, people who are using fairly shitty software for their work that only runs in an MS Windows environment. The sort of stupidly expensive crap that uses multiple buggy "services" running in the background checking a few times a minute to see if there's a USB dongle plugged in. That sort of obfiscated pile of spaghetti has a million ways to crash or lock up so does mean a few reboots a day for the people using it.
Re:nope by dbIII · 2013-04-19 17:19 · Score: 1

Yep - I remember all the fun of some guy setting up MS Exchange without understanding that it was configured as an open relay by default. Within a day we were on every spam blacklist I'd ever heard of and a few that I found out about that day. Also I don't see how anything that required regedit to change settings can be described as "easy to set up" within the GUI centric MS Windows environment.
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 17:22 · Score: 0

You've got that backwards. Non-tech people completely trust Microsoft products, which is why Windows got so popular in the first place. Techies are the ones that don't trust MS and even then, only some techies.
Re:nope by Black+LED · 2013-04-19 17:24 · Score: 2

As I recall, OS/2 was promoted to home users. That's actually why I bought a copy back then, because I saw a television advert for it.
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 17:38 · Score: 0

On the subject of boot time, a simple use case: White Collar Road Warriors.
Get off the phone, whip out the laptop (or tablet/convertible), fire it up (don't leave it running while stuffed into a laptop bag), jot down some notes, update a spreadsheet, or tweak a presentation, shut it back down (hibernate, etc) and get moving again. You might end up doing that an impressive number of times to keep your 6 hour battery (generous assumption) from disappearing during a 10 hour day (especially since you aren't in one spot for an extended period and it is not always possible to whip out the charger).
There might not be a [metric] ton of these people but this is just one example.
Re:nope by yuhong · 2013-04-19 18:24 · Score: 1

The MS OS/2 2.0 fiasco is my favorite MS fiasco: http://yuhongbao.blogspot.ca/2012/12/about-ms-os2-20-fiasco-px00307-and-dr.html
Re:nope by terjeber · 2013-04-19 18:30 · Score: 1

That aspect is that a huge part of the reason Windows went into the workplace was because people were familiar with it at home
He adequately adressed it and he explained why it was wrong. It was in fact the other way around. The PC won out at home because that was what people had at work.
Re:nope by terjeber · 2013-04-19 18:49 · Score: 1

Which does not explain the adoption of Word over WordPerfect, Excel over Lotus
WordPerfect lost to Word beacuse WP was a piece of shit. It functioned as a Word Processor, but it stayed in the DOS realm long after Windows was the norm, and when it came to Windows it was designed to be, work and look different from all other Windows software. WP died due to the fact that Word was good enough, and the arrogant morons in charge of WP was unable to let go of their egos.
Lotus lost to Excel because it was a piece of DOS shit... see above.
Outlook won because of Exchange. The only enterprise competitor was Notes, and Notes lost to Exchange because it was a (wonderful if you like document management) piece of shit with so many UI oddities that ... seee above about ego.
Re:nope by terjeber · 2013-04-19 18:55 · Score: 1

a lot of that was blamed on it not having as much access to system libraries as MS Word
That's bullshit, perhaps the WP developers tell them selves that this was the case, but it is still bullshit. WP on Windows was a piece of junk. Always. The dev team in charge of WP had their egos run the show thinking "we can do it better than Windows" so WP on Windows was different from all other software on Windows. It was also impossible to use without a PhD in WP formatting.
Word 2.0 was great for the 99%. LaTeX was still better if you wanted to write a book, but up to and including a decent size University project, Word 2.0 was good enough. In fact, 2.0 was the reason I abandoned LaTeX for ever. It simply was Good Enough (tm) and I never needed to write a book.
Re:nope by terjeber · 2013-04-19 19:04 · Score: 2

Well Linux "just works" for me.
It does for developers and people who mainly surf for porn (thanks to VLC). For people who use their computers for - for example - digital content management, Linux doesn't work and likely never will. There is no alternative to Photoshop on Linux, no, really, there isn't, stopp yacking about it, there isn't, seriously, there isn't. There is nothing like Lightroom, Premiere Pro, After Effects etc. Office apps for Linux give me that old "Word Perfect for Windows" feeling. Yuck!
An OS is only as good as the applications it runs. For most users at the moment that means iOS, Android, OSX or Windows.
Re:nope by terjeber · 2013-04-19 19:11 · Score: 1

As a developer I'm pleased I invested resources in developing for Java
Yuck! That is the statement of a terrible software developer. I am merely a bad to average developer, and I routinely do Java, C# and Ruby, (and JavaScript obviously) and when I can I also dabble in languages that are very different from those, such as F#. I am getting ready for Python next (a little late to that boat, had other things to do). A good developer should complete at least one medium sized project every year in a language he didn't know the year before.
Coding in Ruby makes me a better Java/C# programmer. Developing in Java makes me appreciate the improvements Microsoft has made in C# to make it grow from being a "Java wannabe" to becoming "What Java could have become a long time ago, and would have perhaps had it not been for it being Designed By Committee". C# makes me a better Java programmer and makes me realize what bad mistakes Sun made here and there - Autoboxing in Java... aaaaargh! Are you fucking NUTS Sun?!? (back then).
Re:nope by terjeber · 2013-04-19 19:15 · Score: 1

And before that XP was a failure
XP was universally hated in the same way Win 8 is when it was released. Now the same haters love XP but hate 8. It would have been funny if it wasn't so pathetic. Quite frankly, I think XP got a lot more vitriol than Win8 does.
Google "Windows XP Fisher Price".
Re:nope by rtb61 · 2013-04-19 19:29 · Score: 1

Lotus lost to excel because the lotus eaters were to in love with their ridiculous pricing and the whole office suite was cheaper than their spread sheet. Not to forget you could so easily buy one, just one copy of M$ Office and easily load it on every computer in the office. So M$ office was way cheaper that Lotus and Word Perfect. M$ won be being easy to pirate, end of story.
Once the had market of course their attitude to piracy change
So for windows to recover, don't just sack Uncle Fester but also sack his cadre of brown nosing Ballmerites and then drop compulsory registration for the next couple of versions of windows before bringing it back in again.

--
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
Re:nope by SplashMyBandit · 2013-04-19 19:51 · Score: 1

Actually I know many programming languages (I've been at it for two decades). If you want to work on *huge* projects you need to think strategically. While I do have lots of little projects, and do lots of large projects for work, I do have a very large project that will take another two years to complete (and has already taken two years to get to this stage). Yes, it is good to experiment with many languages - that's the only way you understand them. However, I would like to bring up the old chestnut, "You can write bad FORTRAN in any language". By this I mean that when you are doing C# you ought to be writing in the mainstream style of C#. Similarly writing in a C style in Java is a mistake. etc. I hope you get my point. Knowing lots of languages and techniques is good, but trying to shoehorn a style into a language with a different convention sucks for people maintaining it (and writing good software is all about writing for the maintainers who have to look after and extend your masterpieces).
As I said, Java is not the perfect language. Its strength is its ubiquity (especially of its libraries and the high portability of many third party libraries). My main point is I would never trade the portability of Java for the any of the nice little features of C#. I think that is a strategic mistake (particularly once you start thinking in terms of software developed on multi-year scales, which is nearly all large software for commercial sale).

I am merely a bad to average developer,
Lol. I like the humility, mate :) Actually, I don't believe I'm a terrible software developer, I just have concerns greater than mere technology (as in, strategic business ones - like locking yourself into Windows-only development being madness these days) that give Java quite an edge over other platforms. I recommend Java mainly for those reasons (and, I would suggest, you might too if you start considering factors more than mere language constructs).
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 20:03 · Score: 0

Work tech support sometime, you would be VERY surprised to find out the number of people out there that, to this day, still dont get the concept of a "right click"
Re:nope by davester666 · 2013-04-19 20:03 · Score: 1

That is precisely backwards. Windows became a player in Enterprise for several reasons:
1) IBM anointed it the desktop OS, by licensing it for the IBM PC [it was named DOS at the time]
2) it was the best "cheap" OS for hardware manufacturers to use
3) the fact that for quite some time you couldn't buy a PC without Windows [so why pay extra for another OS]
4) then that Windows worked best only with other Windows machines. Somehow, other OS'es never did work great with Windows [little ebb and flow, worse after major releases and service packs, then slowly better, then crappy again at the next service pack].

--
Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
Re:nope by cyber-vandal · 2013-04-19 20:19 · Score: 1

They do have an LTS version. Windows 7 is supported until 2020.
Re:nope by chopthechops · 2013-04-19 20:29 · Score: 1

Actually if Windows could 100% reliably sleep/hibernate AND 100% reliably wakeup then boot times are irrelevant. One of the significant attractions for me to move to using a Mac laptop is that I never have to turn it off - closing the lid sleeps instantly and wakeup is almost as fast and 100% reliable. It also has a practical (long enough) battery life to not be tied to the AC power supply, and in the event that the battery does run flat when asleep it will hibernate automatically. After many years using several different laptop brands and Windows versions I never got to the point where I could trust a Windows laptop to sleep and re-awake with 100% reliability, so I never took the risk. (I did use hibernate reliably on some machines but always invoked it manually). If power management on laptops works correctly in Win8 (the only Windows version I have not used on a laptop) then who cares about boot time?
Re:nope by Caesar+Tjalbo · 2013-04-19 21:12 · Score: 1

I suspect it was Vista that marked the beginning of the fall.
I suspect it's more the failure to come with a timely and interesting successor to XP. Vista was 'too little, too late'. It also caused IE to drop market share and happened way before netbooks, tablets or smart phones became a factor.

--
"I'm not much interested in interoperability. I want substitutability. I want to be able to throw your software out."
Re:nope by styrotech · 2013-04-19 21:37 · Score: 1

Bingo. It takes a day or so to explore the new interface and do some research on the web to find out how to use it and a week or so to become used to it. One is forced to assume that the complainers are drooling morons who would be unable to cope with learning anything new without being spoon-fed. Heaven help these people if they had to learn something as complicated as a new programming language.
That used to be the kind of response uncomfortable newbies trying a new system used to get from some Linux users 10yrs ago that gave them a bad reputation for being elitist arrogant pricks.
I find it funny that the elitist arrogant pricks are now the early adopters of a new Windows version chiding those others that aren't so comfortable with the changes. And now the whining from longer term Linux users is now about hating recent desktop changes.
How times change.
Re:nope by nukenerd · 2013-04-19 21:37 · Score: 1

the only reason MS became accepted into the enterprise is because that is what consumers were familiar with,
No. At the time we are talking about (c1990) most people first met MS and Windows at work. The path to using Windows on the desktop in the corporate area was like this :-

IBM mainframe --> IBM PC with PC DOS --> IBM PC (or clone) with MS DOS & Win 3.x

At the time, few people had a PC at home, least of all PHB's. The guys who did have home computers were on things like Amiga, Amstrad, Sinclair - the consumer "PCs" at the time. I was there, and remember some arguments at work against IBM PCs and in favour of eg Amigas because that was what the techies were familiar with - but the PHBs were afraid of being sacked for not buying IBM. In any case the PHBs thought the PCs would mainly be used as terminals for the mainframe (and they were for some time) and came with terminal emulation software.
Re:nope by war4peace · 2013-04-19 22:05 · Score: 1

Word, Excel and Powerpoint covered most of the userbase. OK, and the mail client, no matter how shitty.

--
...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
Re:nope by niteshifter · 2013-04-19 22:11 · Score: 1

I think what Penguinisto is trying to say is that the developer exodus begins with what the dev uses *for themselves* to get the biz owner's Windows servicing taken care of. You are not - in a larger context - correct in saying "you can't rdp without windows": throwing a X screen and keybd across the network is easily done. You are correct in saying that when we do rdp to a win box we're just using our *nix/droid platforms as thin clients.
Now the question is: Why would we want to?
Speaking for me, I just want the damn tool - the computer under my fingers - to just work, with a simple UI/UX that gets out my way and lets me work. Linux/Gnome/CLI and Android/AndFTP/ConnectBot works wonders for me and preserves what little sanity I still possess after nearly four decades worth of computing 'n tech-stuff work.
The odd thing is many of my clients want the same thing from their computing systems: it just works and gets out of the way of the worker so they can, you know, work ;)
Now imagine the conversation they and I will be having over the next few years ...
Re:nope by FaxeTheCat · 2013-04-19 22:36 · Score: 2

I agree, the reason that MS won was the Microsoft Office Pro Package which bundled Word, Excel, Powerpoint, Access, Viso, and Project. Once MS crushed the competition products began to slowly become "sold separately" as we see today with Viso and Project.
That is completely backwards. In the beginning all the products were sold separately. Then they created an office bundle (no Outlook at that time) which was basically the 3 first products in the same package. Only in recent years have Visio and Project become part of some of the packages.
Re:nope by FaxeTheCat · 2013-04-19 22:42 · Score: 1

MS gave Word away.
I have used Word since 2.0 (for Windows). I can assure you, it was never free. Quite the contrary.
You may confuse it with "Works" which was given away for free with PCs for a long time. That was a very different product, an came long after Office.
Re:nope by FaxeTheCat · 2013-04-19 22:46 · Score: 1

So while you are at it, why not pin it to the taskbar? Sort of Windows 7 style? Even in Win7, I rarely use the start menu. All the frequently used programs are on the task bar.
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 22:49 · Score: 0

Twin doom. The fact that Win8 does not support iPhones and Tablets out the box, plus all the server and licenses bull-shittery means Google Apps looks mighty good-enough, plus delivers the 'cloud' at a known cost. Right now, costs are being shaved, and employees are suffering, and management starting to wake up. Worse, some hear others made the jump to Google, without pain.
Now the slowest corps on XP, starting to go to Win7, and seeing Win8 a disaster, HAVE made the decision to jump to Google Apps Consumers also reckon they can see a pig with lipstick. Between a pig and a sexy cloud, they choose cloud.
Re:nope by FaxeTheCat · 2013-04-19 23:02 · Score: 1

Sit a person down infront of a Windows 7 machine and ask him to shutdown the computer, takes a few seconds to figure out, now sit him in front of a Windows 8 machine, and in three days when he's still figuring it out show him things like the charm bar which has no visual que in the interface at all.
The problem is: Where does the idea come from that you use a menu to shut down the computer?
Where do you find the menu to shut off your TV or video player or even the iPod?
Use the power button!
My son got a new laptop with Win8. You are right. I could not find out how to "shut it down". So I hit the power button. Bingo!
Re:nope by thegarbz · 2013-04-19 23:13 · Score: 1

So.... Power down, standby, hibernate, restart, powerdown with forceclosing applications, killall and force restart...
My TV is much simpler than my computer. Incidentally I also can't turn it off and it only goes into standby using quite a bit of power in the process. Give me a menu option to turn the damn thing off.
The problem is people simplify problems, just like you read my post and latched on to one tiny aspect of the big wider picture which is, when the hell did we decide to throw 20 years of UI design, feedback during customer testing, and past experience in the trash all in the name of creating an interface that doesn't actually help you.
Incidentally do you also use the powerbutton to change the wireless device you're connected to? Because that's another button that Microsoft has HIDDEN in some invisible menu next to the powerbutton.
Re: nope by jimicus · 2013-04-19 23:23 · Score: 1

Outlook is not (and never has been) a POP/IMAP client. It is an Exchange client, and as such offers a hell of a lot more than plain POP or IMAP can.
The reason it supports POP and IMAP is, IMV, a sales decision. Small business owners buy Office, get Outlook, use all the extra features like shared calendars, notes and centralised contacts - none of which seem to work properly, remember that it used to work just fine back when they were working for a larger company and call up their computer literate friend to ask why.
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how the email aspect of Office 365 (and for that matter Windows SBS not so long ago) is sold. Outlook has already done the hard work of persuading the business owner they need it, and to top the lot, the customer has paid Microsoft (by buying a copy of Office) to sell it.
It's a wonderful sales technique if you can figure it out. The customer pays you and at the same time gives you a free opportunity to subtly persuade them to buy something else from you.
Re:nope by FaxeTheCat · 2013-04-19 23:35 · Score: 1

The problem is people simplify problems, just like you read my post and latched on to one tiny aspect of the big wider picture

Disclosure: I a mot a big fan of the Win8 UI myself, but I try to not make it a bigger problem than it is.

My point was that for some things you need to unlearn bad habits. Turn off the computer: bad habit to use a menu as long as there is a power button (which can be used to shut down the computer as well. Search for "Power"). On a laptop: close it.

BTW: When it comes to the wireless, I usually go to the desktop and use the icon in systray for that.

Other than that, I never use the menu anyway. I search. So to change a network setting, I would search for "network". Works om my Win7 machine. I assume it will work on Win8 as well.

My TV is much simpler than my computer.
And still people expect to be able to use such a complex machine without going through a minimal training?
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-20 00:01 · Score: 1

And we could call them: Micros~1, Micros~2, and Micros~3!
Re:nope by pnutjam · 2013-04-20 00:11 · Score: 1

try explaining the difference between a slash and a backslash...
#techsupportveteran

--
Cheap storage VM.
Re:nope by oldlurker · 2013-04-20 01:38 · Score: 1

Bingo. It takes a day or so to explore the new interface and do some research on the web to find out how to use it and a week or so to become used to it. One is forced to assume that the complainers are drooling morons who would be unable to cope with learning anything new without being spoon-fed. Heaven help these people if they had to learn something as complicated as a new programming language.
That used to be the kind of response uncomfortable newbies trying a new system used to get from some Linux users 10yrs ago that gave them a bad reputation for being elitist arrogant pricks.
I find it funny that the elitist arrogant pricks are now the early adopters of a new Windows version chiding those others that aren't so comfortable with the changes. And now the whining from longer term Linux users is now about hating recent desktop changes.
How times change.
Actually, I'm not sure this has changed that much. There has always been a strong push-back to changes in known UX and use on geek sites like Slashdot. The Windows XP UI got endless scorn when launched, now it is heralded as how things should stay by many. We sometimes post these arguments using "average Joe" as an excuse, but it seems to me that it is us geeks who are more set in our ways than casual users.
I still remember there being a very prevalent opinion on Slashdot that smartphones were a stupid development, a) because a phone was a device to call with, period, and b) it was much better to have multiple devices (MP3 player, compact camera, PDA/laptop, etc.) than combine it on a phone, and c) who would want greasy finger marks all over their phone screen?
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-20 01:56 · Score: 0

Sit a person down infront of a Windows 7 machine and ask him to shutdown the computer, takes a few seconds to figure out, now sit him in front of a Windows 8 machine, and in three days when he's still figuring it out show him things like the charm bar which has no visual que in the interface at all.
When the Windows start menu was launched, this site was chock-full of scorn about how incredibly stupid and non-intuitive bad UX it was to have to click on Start to shut down..
Re:nope by atlasdropperofworlds · 2013-04-20 01:58 · Score: 1

since it (currently) hampers the hell out of work
We've had a few developers install 8 at work. They haven't found it to be a hindrance at all. I installed it on a machine in order to run VS12, and I haven't been slowed by the OS at all. The desktop is still there. They keyboard shortcuts are still there. Everything works effectively the same way but looks a bit different.
Re:nope by atlasdropperofworlds · 2013-04-20 02:01 · Score: 1

OSX uses this same mechanism to achieve it's fast boot times. My understanding is the Linux even uses a similar trick to get the GUI and services up faster (since the kernel already boots very quickly)
Re:nope by oldlurker · 2013-04-20 02:05 · Score: 1

Actually if Windows could 100% reliably sleep/hibernate AND 100% reliably wakeup then boot times are irrelevant. One of the significant attractions for me to move to using a Mac laptop is that I never have to turn it off - closing the lid sleeps instantly and wakeup is almost as fast and 100% reliable. It also has a practical (long enough) battery life to not be tied to the AC power supply, and in the event that the battery does run flat when asleep it will hibernate automatically. After many years using several different laptop brands and Windows versions I never got to the point where I could trust a Windows laptop to sleep and re-awake with 100% reliability, so I never took the risk. (I did use hibernate reliably on some machines but always invoked it manually). If power management on laptops works correctly in Win8 (the only Windows version I have not used on a laptop) then who cares about boot time?
Windows 8 sleep/resume on a modern ultrabook is in my experience just as quick and stable as OS-X on Macbook Air. And if you look at the comments by Win8 users here, most mention sleep/resume improvements at the same time they mention boot times, but the replies go off on the boot tangent only, ignoring the sleep/resume improvements called out.
Re:nope by atlasdropperofworlds · 2013-04-20 02:08 · Score: 1

Actually if Windows could 100% reliably sleep/hibernate AND 100% reliably wakeup then boot times are irrelevant
I'm running a dell xps that I installed Win8 on. It was running Win7 before. It has never, ever failed to sleep/hibernate or wake back up using either version. It's certainly much faster with 8, coming to life from a full hibernate in 6 seconds (2s from sleep). I have a custom-built desktop that ran W7 and now runs 8. It only ever restarts under 2 scenarios - either an major update was installed or the power goes out. It is always asleep instead of off, and never has a problem waking up. The problem you are referring to is probably not related to windows so much as it is related to a badly configured machine or crappy hardware.
Re:nope by Proudrooster · 2013-04-20 02:18 · Score: 1

I just pulled out my official Genuine Microsoft Office 2003 CD from 13-years ago from Microsoft Licensing and it has Office 2003,Publisher, Visio etc... I have always worked at places with Volume Licensing, so I guess I never realized they were all sold separately because they were all on the MS Office Professional Enterprise Edition 2003 install CD. Wikipedia shows Visio as sold separately in the Enterprise Edition, but it clearly on the install CD. Very strange.
It is neither here nor there in the grand scheme of things, but my point is that if you ship everything on one CD and the VLK (volume license key) allows the use of all the software, I am not going to repurchase something equivalent, even if it is slightly better.
--
Senior Red Hat Certified Engineer
Re:nope by Dcnjoe60 · 2013-04-20 02:42 · Score: 1

Windows 95 was a financial success, but then again, Windows 3.0/3.1 were crappy except for the most minimanlist use cases. Anybody who needed to do more than Windows 3.0/3.1 would allow, which was just about everybody, of course upgraded to Windows 95. In addition, Windows 95 was pre-installed on all new computers and the price point of new computers finally was falling to where many people could afford them. They weren't cheap, like today, but they weren't the price of a new car, like they were in the 80s (an IBM PC/XT was between $4,000 and $7,000 in 1983 depending on configuration).
Falling hardware prices plus competition from Apple pushed Windows 95 in the consumer market. In the corporate world, as those earlier computers were replaced and new ones purchased, they Windows 95 pre-installed.
But to use financial success as the measure, when it is pre-installed is like saying that unleaded gas is more successful than leaded gas. If there is not alternative, then what is actually being measured?
Re: nope by chopthechops · 2013-04-20 03:00 · Score: 1

I agree power management was much improved with windows 7 but my experience in full time tech support leaves me uneasy about never rebooting windows. Weather that be due to power management or memory leak issues or bad hardware or just bad drivers is irrelevant. I'm sure win8 is much better now since it is targeted at always-on hardware but i found when I ran it 24/7 for 4 months as my main work pc (a dell desktop) that I was forced to reboot it about once a week to wake it up from some zombie-like mode where the start screen or a particular app would become unresponsive and I could not kill it through task manager. I would be interested to know if others experienced a similar problem. After my Win8 learning experience was up I gladly went back to OS X as my main work machine. Windows is endurable but Mac OS X is a pleasure to use.
Re:nope by interval1066 · 2013-04-20 03:28 · Score: 1

I would mod this one up if I could. You down-modders are absolutely humorless.

--
Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-20 04:04 · Score: 0

(just like how IBM still owns mainframes)
Somewhat o/t but IBM are giving a strong impression now that they are winding down their z/OS (MVS) support. Release rates for z/OS and much related software are slowing down, and license fees are increasing rapidly as if to milk every last drop out of the remaining customers. Companies that have stuck with their mid-size mainframes for the last few decades are finally porting off. In ten years only the very largest customers like the biggest banks will be left on z/OS.
I do know what I'm talking about, my company runs *lots* of mainframes for other companies, and they are finally dying (in the traditional MVS sense anyhow). Luckily, given that I've worked in mainframe support for several decades, I'm approaching retirement anyhow.
Re:nope by iggymanz · 2013-04-20 04:20 · Score: 1

no, you were in the middle times. the IBM PC came first in homes and mom & pop, the Lotus 123 was the killer-app that brought it into business.
Re:nope by drsmithy · 2013-04-20 04:32 · Score: 1

Windows NT did not exist when OS/2 was being developed.
Yes it did. Windows NT development started in 1988, and was being worked on alongside OS/2 1.x.
Microsoft started it because they did not like working on OS/2 yet losing full control over it.
No, Microsoft and IBM agreed to work on OS/2 NT _together_ as a replacement (long term) for OS/2.
But it wasn't. At the time of release OS/2 was only adopted on small servers (as an alternative to Netware, but also for purposes that otherwise required Unix or mainframe) and semi-embedded devices (as an alternative to DOS). On desktops, Windows 3.1 - 3.11 was so entrenched, nothing was capable of displacing it.
OS/2 was primarily for clients, not servers, especially in the 1.x and 2.x days. NT was going to be the server.
I remember all this fairly well because I watched it unfold. Even the wiki pages cover most of the high level stuff, however.
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-20 04:55 · Score: 0

Yes, and now they have replaced it with something worse. So what's your point?
Re:nope by terjeber · 2013-04-20 05:09 · Score: 1

If you want to work on *huge* projects you need to think strategically
Sure, and one way to think strategically is to work on many different programming languages. As I said, every time I have done a smaller project in Ruby, my Java skills improve significantly. Staying with one language as a strategic decision makes your skills as a programmer erode.
Re:nope by ekgringo · 2013-04-20 05:16 · Score: 1

Well, I guess since we spend so much time rebooting Windows, the boot time savings are helpful. Once you're done applying Windows Updates, however, who really cares if it boots in 10 seconds or 30?
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-20 05:22 · Score: 0

Yes, and now they have replaced it with something worse. So what's your point?
My point is that we've pretty much hated any new Windows UIs as they launched, but then after a while gotten used to them and defended them. XP UI originally got almost the same level of negative reception on Slashdot and other geek sites as Windows 8, it was for a while known as the Fisher Price UI, now it is how we want things to stay.
Re:nope by SplashMyBandit · 2013-04-20 06:50 · Score: 1

Staying with one language as a strategic decision makes your skills as a programmer erode.
Not at all. I don't know whether you have done much university mathematics but what you are arguing for is equivalent to learning more pure maths. This can be handy. However, what I'm suggesting is once you have a good grasp on the pure maths you need it can be a good thing to then learn the applied maths that is actually useful in practice. In coding terms, rather than learning toy languages I instead spend my term learning application and solution domains and find the language I use is broad enough that it doesn't need to change. Rather spending a couple of years learning say, Django, Dart and Clojure I instead learned and coded with GL/GLSL shaders, IEEE 1278.1 DIS, applied aerodynamics, I18n/L10n, writing internationalized global software with regard to which timezones and dates to store data in (there are more subtleties than you would think), hardware device input and control on Linux/Mac/Windows, head tracking etc etc etc.
So, learning new languages is useful. However, it is dangerous to fall into 'snobbery' where you equate more languages with being a better programmer. I posit that once you have mastered a couple of languages, and have selected a portable general purpose language then time is better spent learning the 'applied' part of development - different problem domains and libraries. If all you are doing is database to UI and back then one might not ever see how this is significant, so I can understand your point of view to some degree. I hope you can begin to see mine - that being able to solve lots of problem domains is at least as good as solving the same problem multiple ways.
Re:nope by thomst · 2013-04-20 07:17 · Score: 2

Dcnjoe60 argued:

But to use financial success as the measure, when it is pre-installed is like saying that unleaded gas is more successful than leaded gas. If there is not alternative, then what is actually being measured?
I don't disagree. However, in the case of Windows 95, people upgraded to new computers specifically so that they COULD run 95 - because it was so obviously and incontrovertibly superior to Win 3.x in so many ways. You may not recall, but 95 had the largest open beta test of any software product EVER to that time. Microsoft very wisely encouraged everyone who wanted to try it ahead of its release to download and install it - and people did, in droves.
When 95 was finally released, it set records for copies sold, not only pre-installed, but new orders and upgrades from 3.x. It was wildly popular, and it deserved to be wildly popular, because Microsoft did an excellent job of making it both fully-featured and highly-debugged upon release.
That, of course, was back when billg was running the company. After he left, and that MBA schmuck Ballmer took over, we got Vista and Windows 8, two pieces of OS shit so loose and stinky that they barely qualify as diarrhea.

--
Check out my novel.
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-20 07:59 · Score: 0

Mod parent up. Windows succeeded because Word succeeded on the Macintosh first. Yes, it crashed on large documents ... but in the late 80s as the desktop was making serious inroads in replacing mainframes and minicomputers, it was Word that college students knew. Why? Because colleges were putting Macs in their computer labs and Word's UI was easy for students to write their term papers on and print out in laser quality. WordPerfect didn't go the Mac route, stuck with the DOS interface for too long because the PCs at the time were being used by workers called secretaries, who were true Medusas to change. As the college students of the late 80s and early 90s started working, they didn't need secretaries to write their own documents, they just needed computers that could run Word. Macs were still seen by IT as suspiciously as "dark-skinned males" (that's a tongue-in-cheek reference, not intended as pejorative) but Windows ran on IBM -- and no one ever got fired for buying IBM in that era.
So once the Windows UI had Word, it was game over, man, because then every manager didn't need their own secretary to produce documents and once Excel and PowerPoint were stable enough for daily use, even more regular users were able to create the spreadsheets and colorful presentations people needed to impress the old white men in the corner offices. The mid-90s was all about integration, and Lotus and Borland were trying to compete with the owner of the UI and the OS. (True story, the guy in the cube next to me used 1-2-3 as his word processor. Fast enough for basic letters, miserable for editing and changes! Meanwhile, we'd moved on to Mac and NeXT and pre-Adobe FrameMaker.)
Web-based cloud applications hold promise to rid the world of the complexity of Windows and PCs and make data and applications truly portable, but Microsoft's continued to emphasize the corporate toolsets needed to manage these devices. Today's college students know how to use Facebook and Pinterest and other sharing technologies which are anathema to corporate investments and protection of intellectual property. Until cloud-based services can serve corporate needs for management and integration while providing new users familiar and desired tools on mobile platforms, Android/iOS/Windows/LINUX remains a rehash of the Mac/Windows/UNIX/big-medium iron wars. Too many silos to manage effectively.
Now get off my f'n lawn.
Re:nope by Dcnjoe60 · 2013-04-20 08:12 · Score: 1

Microsoft's failures have had a cumulative effect. Non-tech people simply do not trust Microsoft products. It's the main reason why Windows phone is such a failure.
I'd say it is just the opposite. Tech people do not trust Microsoft. They don't by into FUD because they are aware of competing technologies and realize that Microsoft is not the only player. Non-tech people, on the other hand, make decisions on what other tell them. Everybody can't be wrong, so to speak. If everybody is buying an iPhone, then they should buy an iPhone. If everybody is now buying a Samsung whatever, then they should buy one.
That is one of the reasons Microsoft is working so hard on getting Windows 8 devices placed in tv programs. If Sheldon uses a Windows 8 phone then it must be good, right? Ignoring of course that Sheldon doesn't actually exist, so whatever he uses is pointless. But Microsoft doesn't want you to think about that.
Re:nope by Dcnjoe60 · 2013-04-20 08:19 · Score: 1

Along the way, there were numerous failings - Windows 3.0, Windows 95 (while successful, was buggy) Windows ME, Windows Vista.
I'm used to seeing Windows Me and Vista on this list, but Windows 3.0 and Windows 95? Also, how is Windows 95 a failure if it was successful in spite of bugs? How was the first release of Windows 95 any more buggy than, say, Windows 98 First Edition?
What other operating system could you purchase with your IBM compatible PC when Windows 95 was released? As stated in a previous post, if Windows 95 was your only choice of operating system you could get with the computer, then the volume of installations or copies sold really isn't a good metric of acceptance. Put differently, when there isn't any alternative, then it is reasonable to assume 100% adoption. Let me phrase it differently. Did people go out and purchase a new PC because of Windows 95 or did they end up getting Windows 95 because they purchased a new PC?
As for Windows 98, yes, it was buggy, too, until Win98 second edition. Then it was pretty stable.
Re:nope by Will.Woodhull · 2013-04-20 08:26 · Score: 1

No, you need to check your facts.
When IBM first rolled out the PC in 1980, they considered it an entry into the nascent hobbyist market and estimated that the market would dry up before 250,000 boxes were sold. That was in neither the business market nor the home market; it was the market for guys who shopped at Radio Shack back when you went to Radio Shack to get the resistors, coils, tubes, and such for your latest DIY with solder gun creation.
What then happened was Bricklin came out with a spreadsheet program for the first Apple (about the same time that IBM got the PC out the door), and suddenly businesses were interested in what microcomputers could do. Then along came Word Star for CPM, and Word Perfect for DOS, and a business market exploded. Then, and only then, did microcomputers start to move into the household market. It was not until DOS 3.3x, affordable 40 megabyte hard drives, and inexpensive dot matrix printers that the home market really began. That was around 1988 - 1990. (Win3.0 and the Intel 80386-SX that could run it halfway properly did not arrive until 1991).

--
Will
Re:nope by Ol+Olsoc · 2013-04-20 08:30 · Score: 1

It has been written again and again by many slashdotters, every time a stupid article came up about the supposed "downfall" of microsoft because of the Windows 8 failure and low sales. Ok tablets and smartphones are selling like shit, but most people still have their 5-year-old or so PCs/laptops around with windows XP or 7.
You are not mistaken, in fact, you are very correct. But I think you are arguing a point you don't think you are arguing. If very few people need to upgrade, then microsoft doesn't sell new copies of their operating system. No sales, and it doesn't matter how many people are using it.
This is something that Microsoft must come to grips with. Back in the day, when you would spend 5K on a computer that was obsolete soon after you bought it, changing the OS was not as big a deal. And going from Dos to Windows 3.1 to 95 to XP was a marked upgrade in useability. Now that a lot of non-technical people have computers, the question of "Why do I have to change my entire mode of working just to do the same things I was already doing?" must be answered.

Will people stop using windows anytime soon? Again no. Why? Just look at the alternatives: OSX ? You need a Mac which is expensive. Linux? Nope, if you ask any casual user they wouldn't consider it for a bit. Hell, i'm into the IT industry and i have colleagues who are laughing at the idea of switching to a Linux OS because they want something that "just works". So no, windows ain't going away in the near future.
Consider that other people might think differently though. Macs are very expensive when you compare an I7 27 inch screen iMac to a netbook. But not so much against a Vaio or other similarly performing machine. In addition, Having owned both PC's and Macs concurrently since th elate 80's, I need to replace the PC's at roughly 1.5 times for the Macs. Linux? It's been improving a lot, but there are times it returns you to 1985 to install software.

--
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Re:nope by Dcnjoe60 · 2013-04-20 08:32 · Score: 1

I concede that Win95 was successful and mainly because it was put out by engineers and not MBAs. When your goal is putting out the best product you can, that is exactly what you do. When your goal is maximizing your profit, well, then, that is what you do. Usually, the two are mutually exclusive. It's like the old adage in programming timely, features,bug free, pick any two.
Re:nope by Dcnjoe60 · 2013-04-20 08:36 · Score: 1

As a follow up and based on other discussions, I will concede that Windows 95 was highly successful as exemplified by a large number of upgrades from Windows 3.1.
Re:nope by Wolfrider · 2013-04-20 08:56 · Score: 1

> Win95 was the first consumer Windows that ran, more or less, as its own OS rather than as a growth on top of DOS.
--Bzzt. Wrong, Win95 and Win98 both ran on top of DOS and could not be run without it.** NT, Win2k (mostly for servers) and XP were the major Windows releases that did not boot from DOS.
** They still required config.sys, autoexec.bat (to a lesser extent) and if you wanted to get decent results, EMM386 and "highmem" memory management.
> It was not very good
--That I will give you. ;-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_98
[[
Windows 98 is the successor to Windows 95. Like its predecessor, it is a hybrid 16-bit/32-bit monolithic product with an MS-DOS based boot stage.
]]

--
.
== WolfriderV6 == I'm willing to admit that *I just might* be wrong... Are you??
Re:nope by Ol+Olsoc · 2013-04-20 09:08 · Score: 1

I suspect it was Vista that marked the beginning of the fall.
Actually wasn't what is being said about Win8 identical to what was said about Vista?
Not really. As a big victim of Vista, I can say it's issues were the stunning lack of drivers for perfectly good peripherals, the black screen of permission, the Vista basic debacle, in which machines that were perfectly capable of running XP, were rendered mostly unuseable in Vista Basic, because Vista was a bloated pig of a system. There was an odd business of identical machines running identical programs in which some would require the program to be run as administrator, and some didn't care. Vista also had some updating issues. I had a whole small network of early Vista basic machines thrown in my lap. That experience cultured a well deserved dislike for Microsoft.
Windows 8? The Commodore 64 graphic Metro screen, and just the need to change whole work habits to do the same things that you were doing before, with no other advantage.
As for what was being said before, that was mostly the diehard fans calling everyone who didn't like Windows 8, idiots. They did the same with Vista. I was called an idiot because I didn't think it was a good idea to replace printers that were rendered useless because of lack of drivers.

--
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Re:nope by roc97007 · 2013-04-20 09:08 · Score: 1

But we already have sleep and hibernate modes in Windows 7.

--
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
Re:nope by terjeber · 2013-04-20 09:29 · Score: 1

it is dangerous to fall into 'snobbery' where you equate more languages with being a better programmer
I am going to have to disagree with you again. Each programming language brings with it its own style of programming. Example: Ruby encourages duck typing, dry and not the least - out of absolute necessity - TDD. Since these things get hammered into you as a Ruby programmer, when you do Ruby projects they become part of your programming style. Java encourages none of these, and some parts of typical J2EE programming are directly counter to these. So, anyone with an open mind who do serious projects in (for example) Ruby will pick up new skills, skills that it is far less likely they would acquire sticking with a single language, and therefore they become a better programmer. F# would do the same for you when it comes to functional programming, a style that is also possible in Java, but far from encouraged or even easy to think of. Functional programming ideas will make your multi threaded and async code a lot better, also when you return to Java.
More languages definitely makes you a better programmer because it makes you adopt techniques and styles from different camps, making you more versatile and better at your work. It is easy to tell the difference between code written by someone who does only Java or C++ or C# and someone who also does extensive JS, F#, Ruby or other work. The Java code written by decent Ruby programmers is always better than code written by someone who only does Java.
Forgive me if I am using Ruby too much, it is just meant as an example. You could replace it with F#, Scala, Acca and even JavaScript.
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-20 09:55 · Score: 0

You have it backwards. Microsoft became dominant in the home because it was what people were familiar with at work. Prior to wintel dominance in the business arena, the home computing market was very diverse, and could just as easily have been claimed by Commodore or Apple as by Microsoft, with Tandy and Atari holding lesser, but still respectable, shares of the market.
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-20 09:57 · Score: 0

I'm with you on this. I had WP installed myself because I was studying maths at the time, and was very dependent on WP's (v5.1 IIRC) maths function editor for that. But if I just needed to write regular text and format it properly, I would use Word on the student club's or university's computers. For common purpose word processing the UI of Word definitely beat WP.
Re:nope by SplashMyBandit · 2013-04-20 11:00 · Score: 1

What Java developer in this day and age doesn't do TDD or similar? I agree that more languages makes you better, however you still haven't addressed my point. On most large commercial projects only one language gets to be used. On most large commercial projects the team has a spectrum of skills and all must be productive. On most large commercial projects a developer who knows more libraries is usually more productive (features per unit time; that is, features per dollar) than someone who knows more languages. I'm not saying not to learn more languages, I'm saying on large commercial developments that more languages are a less significant factor than having a team that has a broader knowledge of libraries and application domains (eg. hardware integration; or internationalization; or knowing the internals of their database engine so that they correct optimize complex queries so that their [unavoidable] queries over seven billion rows work in reasonable time, etc). That's what I'm saying. The more time you have in the trenches, the less worried you are about learning the language du jour (which comes and go like virtual particle pairs). How much value will your F# and Acca knowledge be in ten years? Yet if you learned more application domains that is always valuable.
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-20 11:05 · Score: 0

She is a fucking cunt that can not do her job,
She works for AT&T as an Executive Account Manager.
All stuff you could have gotten from the sig itself.
Re:nope by terjeber · 2013-04-20 11:45 · Score: 1

On most large commercial projects a developer who knows more libraries is usually more productive
On most large commercial projects, the cost is not in the development phase but in the maintenance phase. A well rounded developer (with experience from multiple languages) writes better code, less code and more maintainable code. Initial development is expensive, but the cost savings of not having to google the odd library is negligible compared to the cost of maintaining code.
I maintain existing enterprise applications. I can immediately identify code written by "pure" Java programmers and code written by programmers with either Functional experience or experience in Ruby or Python. Their code is different, and the Functional guys write different code than the Ruby guys. What is always the case though is the following: The Java guy write more code than the others. If he writes multi-threaded code it is of lower quality than if it is the Functional guy. Mostly the Ruby/Python guys write less, to a lot less code. Since there is a direct and linear relationship between LOC and bugs, less code is a good thing.
So, no, I do not agree with you. A "pure" Java programmer is not more productive than someone with more actual experience in writing in other languages. In fact,since I've said so many nice things about Ruby, I have recommended all of the people on our dev team is required to take either a good course in Ruby or learn it by them selves and are required to write some smaller, real-world project in Ruby. Most of them are Java developers, and after having done Ruby for a bit they'll be better, more concise, Java developers.
Re:nope by thegarbz · 2013-04-20 12:40 · Score: 1

You have given a great example. Closing the lid on a laptop does something quite different from hitting the power button. In one case your battery will slowly drain and your applications will continue to run, in the other your computer is powered off. By dumbing it down to a simple action you've just compared these two different functions in the same sentence.
I'm also glad you mentioned searching. You're 100% right. Searching for the network settings will get you the wireless settings. Now... how do you get to the search bar in Windows 8? In Windows 7 we press the one button which has been consistent on the operating system for 17 years (crap I feel old now) and it's right there. In Windows 8 what visual cue exists to indicate that the "charms bar" which contains the searching widget even exists? None. My boss used his computer for a week before he discovered it, and that was after searching a youtube video for trying to get to the control panel.
I'm not against the tile interface, I'm not against the placement of the options like the shutdown, or the searchbar, or anything like that. What I'm against is that 20 years of UI design theory have been thrown out the window to create a system which provides you no visual cues that things exist. On Android if see the slide to unlock screen there's a little circle in the middle. The OS shows an animation to draw the user's attention to it and when they press it there's a further animation showing icons directing the user to slide to them. These are visual cues that are missing. Fun fact Windows 95 never said "Start" on the start button, but after about one year of product testing they added it in a late release candidate because Microsoft realised users didn't know what to do with the little windows icon on the bottom of the screen.

And still people expect to be able to use such a complex machine without going through a minimal training?
No I expect that after years of training and years of people knowing how to use their complex machine, and after years of research in how to make this complex machine accessible to people with only minimal amount of training that I can do something as simple as upgrade to the latest version of the software and not feel like I've never touched a computer before. Their interface is not fundamentally broken, just the design decision they have made makes it impossible to realise the functionality they have implemented even for veteran computer users.
Visual cues, separation between content and control elements, separation between applications and the operating system, all of these fundamental things are missing from their interface, and it ruins the experience not only for the computer user, but for the touch users they are targeting too.
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-20 14:20 · Score: 0

They rectified that compared to Vista. I'll give you that. 7 makes Vista look even worse than it did when they first released Vista. But 7 is still not as good as XP. My reasoning: On virtual machines and at least half of the computers I've installed 7 on, I get BSOD regularly. On virtual machines and every computer I've installed XP on, I never get BSOD (or if I do, it usually is obvious what makes it happen--so far, only Outlook 2010 has a clear similarity between the majority of the BSODs I see on 7, but Outlook 2010 never causes BSOD on XP--it does crash a good amount, but only the application, not the whole goddamn OS).
Re:nope by Will.Woodhull · 2013-04-20 15:01 · Score: 1

I can see why a person might think that Win98 ran on top of DOS, since it used a chunk of DOS as a boot loader. But aside from that starter motor, it was more like WinNT than Win3.xx. It was supposed to be able to emulate DOS to support legacy DOS apps, but for the most part that did not work very well. Which was not entirely the fault of Microsoft: by that time virtually every major DOS software was using "undocumented" calls into the guts of DOS in ways that simply could not be emulated. If there had actually been a buried DOS layer to draw on, DOS software would have run better under Win98. Instead of crashing mysteriously so damn often.
As to Win95--- I stayed away from it and I advised my clients to stay away from it. I probably lost some business due to that decision, but I was focused on developing a solid client base, which meant offering sound products that would work well for my clients. It was clear that Win95 would have more down time and more repair costs than Win311, without offering enough added benefit to be worthwhile. So I had no experience with it and I have no idea how they mixed the WinNT parts with the DOS parts. I just know that it was done badly.

--
Will
Re:nope by chthon · 2013-04-20 15:30 · Score: 1

"Works" came long before Office, there was even a non-GUI DOS version of "Works", somewhere back in the beginning of the 90's.
Re:nope by The+Grim+Reefer · 2013-04-20 15:53 · Score: 1

I suspect it was Vista that marked the beginning of the fall.
Actually wasn't what is being said about Win8 identical to what was said about Vista?
I can say it's issues were the stunning lack of drivers for perfectly good peripherals,

Um, that was an XP/2K issue.

the black screen of permission, the Vista basic debacle, in which machines that were perfectly capable of running XP, were rendered mostly unuseable in Vista Basic, because Vista was a bloated pig of a system.
This was another one that 98/98SE/2K users said about XP.
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-20 17:07 · Score: 0

I think your LTS comment on windows is just brilliant. Its for that reason MS is in trouble some times the greatest things are born from the simplest concepts.
Re:nope by NJRoadfan · 2013-04-20 17:41 · Score: 1

I seem to recall hearing the same thing around here when Windows ME was about a year old too. Lo and behold, the next release from MS made Microsoft more money and embedded them further into the end user culture more than any other product ever has.
Not quite. Windows 2000 was already out for the enterprise and 98SE was perfectly fine for home use. All ME did was bring 98SE to feature parity with Windows 2000 and removed "Boot to MS-DOS".
Re:nope by Alex+Belits · 2013-04-20 20:47 · Score: 1

No, Microsoft and IBM agreed to work on OS/2 NT _together_ as a replacement (long term) for OS/2.
Evidence, other than confusing naming of unrelated projects, a Microsoft tactic that existed for the whole history on the company?

OS/2 was primarily for clients, not servers, especially in the 1.x and 2.x days. NT was going to be the server.
When released, OS/2 only got widespread use on servers, and IBM provided their server software, such as DB2, for it. In general, at the time desktop PCs were not seen as "clients" but as standalone desktops, so both Windows and OS/2 were targeting them. In reality only Windows got any widespread on desktops, standalone or not. On the servers, OS/2 was somewhat popular, and OS/2-based database servers can be still found in use now.
It's only later (around 1994) that x86 PCs started to become popular as servers running actual applications (as opposed to storage-oriented Netware), and by then OS/2 development came to a grinding halt, while Microsoft was marketing NT 3.5 for them. There was no connection to IBM whatsoever at that point.

--
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
Re:nope by iggymanz · 2013-04-21 01:38 · Score: 1

that's very funny, with myself and my friends and relatives getting household computers in 19878 - 1982
Re:nope by swalve · 2013-04-21 02:06 · Score: 1

Because WordPerfect sucked. And Exchange did and does a lot of stuff that pop/imap can't do.
Re:nope by swalve · 2013-04-21 02:20 · Score: 1

All you have to do is click a button and you get a normal desktop that does everything a normal desktop does. The only version of Win 8 that forces you into the marketplace is the ARM version, which is fine since you can't run normal applications on ARM anyway.

Do not discount the revolutionary step of integrating Windows into the mobile marketplace. Instead of dumbing down the desktop, they smartened up the tablet. I, personally, had no interest in a tablet until I picked up a Win 8 one. I instantly fell in love with it. This is exactly what I was looking for in a tablet, rather than a large iPhone that doesn't make phone calls.
Re:nope by Ol+Olsoc · 2013-04-21 05:26 · Score: 1

Actually wasn't what is being said about Win8 identical to what was said about Vista?
I can say it's issues were the stunning lack of drivers for perfectly good peripherals,

Um, that was an XP/2K issue.
It was most definitely a Vista issue - here is a link with the exact type of issues I was having:
http://www.vistax64.com/vista-hardware-devices/120722-lack-vista-hardware-drivers.html
http://www.vistax64.com/vista-hardware-devices/6369-asuss-lack-driver-support-vista-need-wi-fi-drivers.html
This was just some of the issues. I had several good printers that were not supported. Tech service for some said they would be getting drivers out "some time", and some noted that we should just buy new printers. Had a wireless driver issue, needed to but a new external usb wireless adapter. This wasn't like trying to install Windows 8 on a 286 machine either. This was hardware bought within a couple years.
And it wasn't just my outside group. Where I worked, when we looked at switching over to Vista, it was quickly obvious that we would have to replace over half the printers, many Ethernet cards, most of the scanners, including some very expensive high speed scanners. By this time, there were many many more devices in all the offices, and the problem was many times what any XP or 2K issue could ever be.
It is not an easy sell to tell the suits they needed to replace all their computers, and most of their peripherals to allow them to do nothing more than exactly what they were doing before with what they already had been doing. We stuck with XP until Windows 7 came out some years later, and by that time depreciation on the older equipment had been realized, and driver support was better anyhow.

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The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Re:nope by MooseMiester · 2013-04-21 07:32 · Score: 1

It was accepted into the Enterprise because Microsoft support at that level is fantastic

You're premise assumes that business operates at the same level as Joe Consumer is absurd.

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Murphy was an optimist
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-21 23:57 · Score: 0

You have given a great example. Closing the lid on a laptop does something quite different from hitting the power button. In one case your battery will slowly drain and your applications will continue to run, in the other your computer is powered off. By dumbing it down to a simple action you've just compared these two different functions in the same sentence.
On my new ultrabook those two actions does exactly the same by default (both can be changed of course), and, the battery drain we historically are used to in sleep mode seems to much less of a problem, or not at all, on a brand new Win8 ultrabook. I've several times forgotten that I didn't really turn it off, just closed it, and when I wake it up battery life is still good even after a significant time in sleep. It is behaving more like my iPad on how you relate to "off" vs "sleep", and I think this is what MS is aiming for. And I think you'll see even more of moving in this direction with this years' Intel platforms.
On the visual cues I agree quite a lot. I do take some time to get used to where things are now, especially if you ignore the first-run experience which only show one thing - how to activate the new non-visible menus. But I don't understand the magnitude of how difficult people, especially geeks, seem to find this, talking about spending 3 days to find the control panel etc.
My setup that I'm quite happy with: 1. Place the desktop tile top left on the metro start screen, then you can just press enter to go to desktop. 2. pin all often used programs, and system utilities like file explorer, control panel etc, on the desktop taskbar, and avoid going to start/metro in 95% of cases. 2. Win-X is your friend, or right-click lower left corner if you hate keyboard shortcuts
Re:nope by roc97007 · 2013-04-22 07:38 · Score: 1

No, people who are using fairly shitty software for their work that only runs in an MS Windows environment. The sort of stupidly expensive crap that uses multiple buggy "services" running in the background checking a few times a minute to see if there's a USB dongle plugged in. That sort of obfiscated pile of spaghetti has a million ways to crash or lock up so does mean a few reboots a day for the people using it.
Ok, there are environments where all of that is true. But if Win8 uses suspend/hibernate tricks to make booting seem faster, there's no guarantee that whatever is screwing up will actually be reinitialized on re-"boot". The user may end up having to do an extra step (pulling the battery or something) to initiate a true reboot, and then having to sit through that.
So I still don't see where this (faster "boot" times in Win8) is going to be a big hit with users. It seems more like egoware than a usable feature.

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Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
Re:nope by nobodie · 2013-04-22 11:45 · Score: 1

you have that backwards: Enterprise first, then consumers

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Subversion of spatial scale luxury decoration ideas.
Re:nope by garbut · 2013-04-23 01:08 · Score: 1

Yes! The ribbon... Death to the ribbon!!

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Oh, should I have sugar-coated that?
Re:nope by bored · 2013-04-23 13:51 · Score: 1

MS gave Word away.
I don't remember MS ever giving word away except at events, as they still do with much of their software. If anything it was darn expensive.
The reason Word won, has more to do with WordPerfect than Word. Wordperfect was THE DOS editor everyone used. But it was a real PITA, without the keyboard overlays it was impossible to learn to use. Oh, and formatting your output was a nightmare of control codes sprinkled all over the text which visually bore no resemblance to the output. To enjoy a modern version of the experience you could try TeX in emacs on a 80x25 terminal...
So, along comes word for windows, and its WYSIWYG (for the most part), and pretty much overnight everyone was like wow that rocks, except for a few die hard wordperfect lovers. Wordperfect responded to word for windows by writing the ugliest VGA application possible (version 6 BTW) which came out a good year or two after word for windows 2. It bombed because it was both SLOW and BUGGY and the WYSIWYG function was barely better than the print preview function they had in 5.1 aka, it was more like WYSIWY Might Get.
Meanwhile, windows was getting better, you could buy accelerated 16 bit video cards,etc and with each video card release windows apps looked better and ran faster. Plus the printer functions in windows were maturing and you could get nice fonts/etc for windows and print them on basically any printer. Unlike wordperfect which had limited fonts and printer support.
Eventually word 6 was released, which was a very nice piece of software and pretty bug free. By the time wordperfect came out with an even buggier windows version it was game over for them. Word was stable, fast and quite usable on windows.
The only real competitor at the time was Ami pro which didn't waste any time bringing a windows app to market.
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-25 06:41 · Score: 0

Well, maybe you should reconsider. Tech Savvy people and wannabe's had PC's at the time, and yes those were decision makers, and yes the fact they had "windows" at home was a big factor in adoption, also the problems.
Microsoft has done more to promote the cause of virus writing than any other company. Bloatware, incompatibility, and FUD.
Crushed competition, violated virtually all federal law regarding patents, competition, and such.
Stores all it's money over seas, and promotes IT / and Jobs in other countries.
What a company.
Re:nope by Anonymous Coward · 2013-05-03 05:35 · Score: 0

This is actually an issue for dual-booters. When a computer is hibernated, it places the partition into a 'locked' mode, preventing anything else from touching it. Basically, if you 'shut down' Win8, then later boot into Ubuntu, you can't access your Win8 partition. There's a setting in the desktop control panel in Win8 to disable this, but it took a while to find, and it's defaulted to use hibernate. Probably my single biggest complaint about Win8 so far.

Lack of necessity by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 07:28 · Score: 5, Interesting

The only thing that could doom Microsoft (not Windows) is the lack of necessity for a new operating system. Microsoft makes money selling Windows, so they NEED to release new versions every few years. The need for a new operating system might not be a pressing issue for the end user and this will slow down the demand for new versions of Windows, not Windows itself.

Re:Lack of necessity by Penguinisto · 2013-04-19 07:52 · Score: 3, Informative

The only thing that could doom Microsoft (not Windows) is the lack of necessity for a new operating system.
Which is, well, what's going on now. Most folks would use XP until the universe's heat death if they could, and there's little reason for them not to. If they have Windows 7, that sentence ends with the phrase "no reason at all."
Unless Microsoft starts getting stupid with making artificial barriers for old OS versions, it's lose-lose, and they don't have that kind of ability anymore - at least not in any meaningful, purchase-influencing way.

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Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
Re:Lack of necessity by UltraZelda64 · 2013-04-19 07:54 · Score: 1

Why? Microsoft runs the show, no one else has any rights whatsoever to Windows. No one else can release an operating system with Windows in the name, and no one can use any Windows code to make any sort of a spiritual competitor. If Microsoft wants to sit on one Windows version for a decade like they did with XP and charge $300 a pop for new licenses just as they did when it was brand new, then what's stopping them? They are the sole provider of Windows and they still have a monopoly for the most part if you exclude ARM systems (which are generally totally different forms of computing systems to begin with). Sure, you'll have people like me jumping ship--but I only did that once I realized what a clusterfuck Vista was going to be. Still, the masses stuck around--and now it's Round 2 with Windows 8 being the dud.
Re:Lack of necessity by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:09 · Score: 0

If anything annoys you or if you've ever said "I wish there was an easier way" or "Why can't it do that" then there's room for a new OS. The hard part is trying to design such an OS to cater to everyone; more so if you try to incorporate current fads/trends to make yourself look cool.
Re:Lack of necessity by meglon · 2013-04-19 08:14 · Score: 1

Which is really where their problem lies. If they had simply kept supporting XP, putting in some updates here and there, and kept charging the "new" price... people would be happy. Instead, they said we're not going to support it any more, and everyone would have to buy something new... then they put out complete and utter shit. The only reason a lot more people didn't drop windows all together was win7 wasn't the complete and utter pile of shit that vista was; but now we have... win8... which is more shit, piled higher and deeper. 3.2 was good, 95b was good, XP was good, win7 isn't bad.... the rest of the trash they've expected people to buy has been one type of feces after another. Until they get their heads around that, and start making consistently good products, they will suffer.

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Fascism: An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. See also: NAZI's
Re:Lack of necessity by Opportunist · 2013-04-19 08:21 · Score: 1

Slow down? There is already NO demand for a new OS? Is there anything a new Windows could do that the old one I have right here cannot?
The selling point of Windows versions was usually better support of hardware, or any support of it in the first place (not just some tacked-on, half-assed, crammed-in kinda-sorta support). Win2k? USB. WinXP? Wifi. Vista/7? 64bit. 8? Ummmmm... touchscreens?
And yes, all those things were supported in a way in previous versions. There was an USB patch for NT, but it was quite buggy and didn't really work well. WiFi was possible in 2k, but it wasn't until XP before a standardized interface existed instead of the horrible proprietary hacks of various companies. 64bit did exist in XP, but ... seriously, when did it really ever work? Drivers were an absolute nightmare.
What it comes down to is that these were the versions that came with built in, out-of-the-box support of that kind of hardware. And it was hardware that everyone (or, a sizable portion of the userbase) wanted. USB took the market by storm, it's easily the most used kind of connection today. Nearly every kind of periphery hardware that doesn't have a really good reason not to comes as a USB device. WiFi is very popular for networking since you don't need to have cables running across your office, especially laptop users really love it. 64bit is pretty much a necessity for the ram hunger of modern applications. Touchscreens... ummmmmmm....
What MS needs is a new kind of must-have periphery that everyone wants and that cannot be sensibly or easily connected to a current version of Windows.

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We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Re:Lack of necessity by pnutjam · 2013-04-19 08:25 · Score: 4, Insightful

The stability and real multi-user support of win7 is head and shoulders above XP. Win7 was a definite improvement.

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Cheap storage VM.
Re:Lack of necessity by postbigbang · 2013-04-19 08:29 · Score: 1

I think you're partially right. The great event cycle called: The Long Awaited Update! is over. The only slow operating system left is Solaris, which updates about once a decade. Now, no one waits at retail stores in tents any more.
Windows 8 is a yawn. There'll be an 8.1 or an SPsomething. Yawn. It's like waiting for Canonical to blurt yet another release of !!Ubuntu!!. Snore. Wait! iOS is coming out with 5.0.0.98.33.44.3.9! Gotta be better than 5.0.0.98.33.44.3.8! Gosh, I can't wait for the download for something else to break!
XP should be taken out back and buried. It has more patches than a hundred miles of hobos. It reminds me of a good game of Angry Birds, where the first bird chews up and collapses everything. Boom! That's what's left of XP. The whole kernel and every component is one huge freaking patch list as long as both your arms.
Change? At some point, it'll have a long deserved heart attack, and that'll be the end of it. It'll collapse in a heap on your hard drive. The regression testing for a single pass (if they still do them) must take months.

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---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
Re:Lack of necessity by CastrTroy · 2013-04-19 08:35 · Score: 3, Insightful

But most people only buy a new OS when buying a new computer. What's happened lately is that people stopped needing new computers. My desktop is 7 years old and I still feel no need to upgrade. My laptop is 3 years old and again, I feel no need to upgrade. Computing for most people has got to a point where things are fast enough. So they can easily go 10 years without needing a new machine, assuming it doesn't break so much that they can't just fix it.

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Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
Re:Lack of necessity by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 09:11 · Score: 0

> XP was good, win7 isn't bad
XP was 32 bit. 7 was 64 bit.
Sure, you could get 64bit XP (and I did), but there were many subtle compatibility issues (drivers mostly) that started to crop up once the market moved to where 4GB+ of ram was viable. 7 is basically the same as XP, but with real 64 bit support.
Re:Lack of necessity by techno-vampire · 2013-04-19 10:51 · Score: 1

Most folks would use XP until the universe's heat death if they could...

I have a friend who loves XP and uses it exclusively. Recently, I asked him what he was going to do next April when Microsoft drops support for it. His answer boiled down to one word: Nothing. He plans on continuing to use XP and the (mostly) Microsoft applications he runs on it, because from his POV, They Just Work. And, I'm sure, he'll continue to use it on the Internet (behind a router) and all of the anti-virus, anti-malware and other protective programs he uses to avoid infection because he's sure that they, at least, will still be updated. (Considering the number of people who think this way, he's probably right, although to be honest, I'm not sure that he's given that subject any real thought.)

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Good, inexpensive web hosting
Re:Lack of necessity by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 11:33 · Score: 0

Most folks would use XP until the universe's heat death if they could, and there's little reason for them not to. If they have Windows 7, that sentence ends with the phrase "no reason at all."
Yeah, I mean it's not like there is any point in having a properly implemented multi-user system. Just have everyone log in as an admin with full permissions, what could possibly go wrong?
Re:Lack of necessity by lgw · 2013-04-19 11:34 · Score: 1

It has more patches than a hundred miles of hobos.
Best line in this entire discussion!

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Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Re:Lack of necessity by lgw · 2013-04-19 11:40 · Score: 1

What MS needs is a new kind of must-have periphery that everyone wants and that cannot be sensibly or easily connected to a current version of Windows.
Yeah, it's called a touch screen. Touch screens are being used as fast as anyone can manufacture them, and their growth is bottlenecked on bringing new manufacturing online (and the ability to make them bigger at a sane price). They will be ubiquitous soon enough.

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Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Re:Lack of necessity by DrVomact · 2013-04-19 12:24 · Score: 1

The only thing that could doom Microsoft (not Windows) is the lack of necessity for a new operating system. Microsoft makes money selling Windows, so they NEED to release new versions every few years. The need for a new operating system might not be a pressing issue for the end user and this will slow down the demand for new versions of Windows, not Windows itself.
What necessity to sell new OSs? MS has gotten us to the point where we will pay for a new OS whenever we buy (or make) a new PC. Wouldn't it be an advantage to them to keep charging the same amount of money for Windows 7 for the next 20 years? Think of the development and support savings! There's more than simple sales revenue behind the release of Windows 8. There is a deep, incredibly complex marketing scheme that no one will ever understand—including the million monkeys in Steve Ballmer's basement who invented it.

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Great men are almost always bad men--Lord Acton's Corollary
Re:Lack of necessity by Opportunist · 2013-04-19 14:03 · Score: 1

It's really hard to tell whether you're joking or whether you really believe that.

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We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Re:Lack of necessity by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 14:28 · Score: 0

Win 7 is better? It is just as broken but in an apple vs oranges way. Things break differently in win 7, but they still break. (Like Office, holy cow that's a train wreck) This stupidity does not exist with Linux, Android or OSX. Bad code is the main reason, as long as it is allowed internally by Microsoft and externally by software companies like Adobe and Sun/Oracle these discussions will prevail.
Microsoft is trying to shape the UI and is failing to see that if something works don't mess with it. The interface for win 7 is good, not great but good. Changing it to something that requires more work just to do work is stupid and they failed to see that.
Bottom line: If you want to sell software to a user, don't inconvenience them with that software!
P.S. Thank God Microsoft will never see the light! I got bills to pay suckers!
Re:Lack of necessity by SpiralSpirit · 2013-04-19 14:55 · Score: 1

office is a separate piece of software, not windows 7, and personally my copy of office runs like gangbusters on it. Windows 7 took some adjustment from XP, but it runs great and tends to have a lot less random problems like my xp box did. I'm quite happy with it. Pretending 7 has quality issues and pointing at office (which, interestingly enough, also runs great afaict) is nonsense. Worse, I like the ribbon. I took me 2 days to figure out where things were now and I find the ribbon much better for reaching tools and dialog boxes I would have a hard time doing in the old style of office. All your complaints are, as far as I can tell, totally in your head.
Re:Lack of necessity by Ja'Achan · 2013-04-20 00:12 · Score: 1

It doesn't matter if it's "better," the biggest threat to a new invention is a current solution that is sufficient.
Re:Lack of necessity by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-20 07:01 · Score: 0

And the 64 bit driver support
Re:Lack of necessity by NJRoadfan · 2013-04-20 17:48 · Score: 1

Windows Vista/7 supports touchscreens. Is there some sort of standard hardware interface for them now that only 8 supports? Also Windows 8 adds native USB 3.0 support. New hardware support is incremental if anything. Not big changes like the USB and ACPI in Windows 98, or OS wide plug-and-play support in Windows 95.
Re:Lack of necessity by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-20 19:09 · Score: 0

Hell, no matter how many years or OS releases pass, I'll still keep an XP VM around just so I can run the old applications and games that run perfectly on XP but don't run well (and often not at all) on Win7, Win8 or WINE...
Re:Lack of necessity by lgw · 2013-04-22 03:43 · Score: 1

It's simple manufacturing data - touchscreens manufacturing is ramping up as fast as logistics allows. And while I'm no fan of the new UI on a "normal" PC, with a touchscreen it suddenly becomes nice, instead of awkward.

--
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Re:Lack of necessity by lgw · 2013-04-22 03:45 · Score: 1

Sure, you can load a driver for a touchscreen for Win7. But why would you? It's not the hardware support, but the whole UI design that needs to change for touch. The new UI was clearly made for touchscreen devices, leaving me to muddle along with classic shell.

--
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.

They need to bring back Clippy by BenSchuarmer · 2013-04-19 07:28 · Score: 4, Funny

that'll take care of everything.

Re:They need to bring back Clippy by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 07:39 · Score: 0

It looks like you're trying to run a company...
Clippy for CEO.
Re:They need to bring back Clippy by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 07:46 · Score: 0

Microsoft Bob can kick Clippy's ass.
Re:They need to bring back Clippy by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 07:56 · Score: 1

I see you are trying to regain marketshare. Would you like help with that?
Re:They need to bring back Clippy by Tablizer · 2013-04-19 07:58 · Score: 2, Funny

"It looks like your company is bleeding cash. Would you like some help?"

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Table-ized A.I.
Re:They need to bring back Clippy by JoeCommodore · 2013-04-19 11:55 · Score: 1

Clippy... AND Comic Sans, AND that fish theme/screensaver from windows 98SE.

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"Enjoy what you're doing! If it becomes drudgery, you're doing it wrong!" - Jim Butterfield
Re:They need to bring back Clippy by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-20 01:58 · Score: 0

You forgot about its sidekick, the Microsoft Bob!

Shrug...stories of my demise ... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 07:29 · Score: 0

Says the guy probably posting from a Windows PC.

It's still breathing ? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 07:29 · Score: 0

Oh crap, have to run out and get my Win8 PC (again) from the trash can

Don't Fire Balmer, by CanHasDIY · 2013-04-19 07:30 · Score: 4, Funny

Just buy heavier chairs.

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An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese

Re:Don't Fire Balmer, by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 07:40 · Score: 1

Just buy heavier chairs.
Don't do that, you'll only make him stronger...
Re:Don't Fire Balmer, by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 12:00 · Score: 0

He'll just become stronger!
Re:Don't Fire Balmer, by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-20 00:09 · Score: 0

Just buy light chairs that won't break windows. They'll bounce back

How relevant is the PC, still? by morcego · 2013-04-19 07:30 · Score: 4, Interesting

The regular desktop PC, and even notebooks, are becoming more and more irrelevant. Yes, there is still a long way to go, but we are seeing more and more of a convergence between platforms, what with cell phones, tablets and whatnot becoming more prevalent and main business tools.
Heck, I'm an IT geek, and I rarely carry my notebook around anyway. I do most of my work from my cell phone (hardware qwerty keyboard).
I keep seeing more and more people ditching their notebooks for tablets.

And I sincerely don't think Windows can survive outside the PC market.

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morcego

Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by MightyMartian · 2013-04-19 07:37 · Score: 2

I still do 100% of my in-office work on a PC. I do pretty much 100% of my casual and recreational computing on my tablet and my smartphone. The work I do from home can be divided between "emergency" work (ie. bind daemon crashed, VM Exchange server went down), and I'll use my tablet about 50% of the time if it's just a matter of "virsh start exchange", and if it's more involved I'll pull out my notebook, and the the other 50% being working from home, where I pretty much use my notebook all the time.
So while an outright majority of my computing is in fact still on PC, that PC usage is almost completely work-related. If I'm surfing the web, writing an email to a friend or watching video, I simply don't use my PC anymore. My usage has changed substantially.
If you look at someone like my wife, whose computing is almost entirely recreational, she uses her tablet about 90% of the time (well, okay, she uses the Wii to watch Netflix, does that count?). She does do some graphic design for her hobbies, and she will pull out the notebook for that, but that's a small fraction. For the overwhelming majority of her computing needs, Microsoft and Windows are completely unimportant.

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The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by _Shad0w_ · 2013-04-19 07:41 · Score: 1

I wouldn't enjoy writing software on a tablet very much. For, yes. On, no.

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Yeah, I had a sig once; I got bored of it.
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by wierd_w · 2013-04-19 07:54 · Score: 1

It's true, my i7 I built has basically just sat (turned off) upstairs for nearly its entire lifetime so far. (An no, it's an xubuntu install, not windows.)
However, for me, the issue isn't the big iron. The issue is the interface devices.
I don't want to come home, from a long day of sitting in a desk, to spend even MOAR! Time sitting in a desk.
I want to sit on my couch. I want to turn on some soothing music, kick back and have some fun and relax. Console gaming is good for that, but I don't always want to play a video game. I actually DO do other things with computing devices, besides work and play games.
The stickler is the mouse. I need something like a mouse, that doesn't require me to wave my arms around, or point something incessantly at the TV/Big monitor. Reclining on the couch precludes using a normal mouse.
The other is the keyboard. I kinda like the tiny form factor of slideout keypads on phone devices, but hate the missing buttons. (Seriously, if I want to sit back on the couch and make a "just for fun" program, I actually kinda DO need all the buttons, M'kay?)
So, I have 2 simple ideas.
The first, is basically just a 3 axis accellerometer, and 2 EEG-like sensors, that gets worn on the right hand like a fingerless glove. (Leftie version for lefties). It uses the 2 electrical impulse sensors to capture a finger "tap" movement for the index and middle fingers, to determine mouse button press. The 3axis accellerometer sits on top of the hand, (low formfactor please.) And is used for tracking.
Couple this with an NFC in the small phone sized keyboard so that the "mouse" knows when it should shut up about gestures and finger movements (eg, you are holding the keyboard, s the NFC between the two devices let's them know to turn off the mouse temporarily.) So that you can just stab away with those thumbs.
Give me something like that, and then I can lounge on my couch without a big bulky keyboard, strained finger movements, and without fighting poorly placed buttons on a touchpad. Do that, and the PC will be very relavent in the livingroom.
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by tepples · 2013-04-19 07:54 · Score: 1

Even if the tablet is paired to a keyboard?
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by DL117 · 2013-04-19 08:03 · Score: 5, Insightful

I'll do all my gaming on my PC. I listen to music on my PC. I watch TV and movies on my PC. My friends do the same. I'm 19. The PC isn't dead in anyone's eyes but those of marketers who want to sell to cheap to build tablets for the price of a fully functional PC.
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by Sir_Eptishous · 2013-04-19 08:05 · Score: 4, Informative

Over and over again, how many times do we have to keep regurgitating this...
Yes, we know, phones and tablets are consumption devices.
PC's are "work"/creation devices.

In the enterprise Apple or Linux or whoever is gonna have a HELLUVA time displacing Windows, Active Directory, Office, etc; and all the software that is written to run in that environment.
For example, how many bioanalytical chemistry/drug testing labs are running LIMS or Lab Informatics software on mac's or google chrome devices? What about companies that process credit card transactions? What about inventory control software for food processing? Apple? Linux?

Just because all these media consumption devices are "the new kid in town" and basking in their self-referential glow doesn't mean they are going to displace the framework that is in place that businesses run on.
Agreed, MS blew it in the consumer space, but good luck dislodging them from the Enterprise.

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We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by Opportunist · 2013-04-19 08:24 · Score: 1

Erh... what exactly is it you're doing for a living? I kinda doubt it's writing papers or software or ... well, doing a lot of writing of any sort.

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We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by pnutjam · 2013-04-19 08:25 · Score: 2

They just seem unimportant until she can't do that 10% that she needs to do.

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Cheap storage VM.
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:36 · Score: 0

Give me a tablet with dual monitor support and as much processing power as today's desktops and I'd be happy to. I'm really not that attached to the box underneath my desk. I do like the screen real estate that two monitors give me and the utility of having a keyboard and mouse.
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by PRMan · 2013-04-19 08:36 · Score: 1

Or a tablet... Which is what everyone else has figured out...

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Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by wierd_w · 2013-04-19 08:52 · Score: 1

Or NOT, because the touch interfaces on tablets aren't capable of doing what I want to do, and typing on the tablet is basically a retarded premise.
No, give me updated input devices, so I can lounge lazily on the couch, and keep the damn tablet.
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by Nerdfest · 2013-04-19 08:57 · Score: 1

A wireless trackball makes a great interface for the couch (or desk for that matter). I prefer something like the Logitech Trackman, with the ball under the thumb, as your hand never has to move. I've always considered the mouse to be an inferior design for most things.
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by gl4ss · 2013-04-19 08:59 · Score: 1

I'm sitting on the couch in a tv viewing position and using a kb and a mouse.. lying down of course, couldn't use it then, but then again my tv isn't bolted to the ceiling.
can touchtype because the kb is full size and sits on the lap and the mouse works superfine on the fabric the cheapo ikea sofa is made of. and this is sort of microsoft related because the type of mouse and kb you have for a setup like this matters a lot! for example the apple cut down wireless keyboard would be totally hopeless for typing like this because you couldn't keep it on the lap and have it stay there while having something to rest the wrists on, also it's button travel sucks but that's another thing. so I'm using a microsoft wireless keyboard 3000 v2.0 + mouse(the version number matters). it stays put, has a flat background and quite frankly feels like it's designed for this, allows full touch typing and has a rubberized wrist rest area so the kb stays put really well and sure as hell beats waving your arms all over or pointing with fingers at the screen all night, basically my hands are in rested position most of the time and the mouse is operated mostly by just the wrist, while hand lays on the sofa. so as long as you have 40cm or so of free sofa area on your side, I really don't see why you couldn't just use a mouse.

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world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by afidel · 2013-04-19 09:01 · Score: 1

I use this app on my smartphone when I'm just chilling on the couch and I have a wireless keyboard and optical trackball for when I need a more "full PC" experience. This works very well and nobody in the family has any problem using this setup.

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There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by wierd_w · 2013-04-19 09:10 · Score: 1

I like to do pixel art as a hobby, and is the main thing I would really love to do from my couch.
I have a LOT of fine motor control and muscle memory built up for fine manipulation of a mouse. A 3axis accellerometer stuck on my hand, and some way to capture finger taps would let me drive a "virtual" mouse with the exact same movements, right on the arm rest of my recliner. Far superior to dicking around with a tiny trackball, IMHO.
Touchpads are a non-starter, because you can't seamlessly press buttons and drag at the same time. (No, double tap+drag won't cut it.) Nevermind trying to use the right mouse button while doing such!
Let me use my existing motions, just from a different posture, and let me keep my hand empty.
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 09:31 · Score: 0

Maybe if it's a 24" tablet...
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by _Shad0w_ · 2013-04-19 09:37 · Score: 1

That was pretty much going to be my response. I rather like having two 24" monitors and a decent amount of processing power.

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Yeah, I had a sig once; I got bored of it.
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by frank_adrian314159 · 2013-04-19 09:56 · Score: 1

Yes, we know, phones and tablets are consumption devices; PC's are "work"/creation devices.
For how long? Give me a phone with a couple more cores, a slightly better video system, a bit more storage, and a docking station into which I can plug a keyboard, pointing device, and a couple of full-size monitors, and I won't need a desktop computer system anymore. The form factor of the box the processor is contained in doesn't matter once it's below the size of a phone. And the day that the computing capacity of a phone is on par with the current desktop systems will be coming within the next five-to-ten years.
This is why MS is trying to converge, regardless of what all you suitcase-size processor-box fetishizers think - they see the future a lot more clearly than you.
Does Win8's usability suck? Yes. Does the strategy (no matter how poorly executed) suck less for their future than staying with a desktop model? The answer is still yes. The only thing that MS is doing is switching from a hopeless strategy to one that might have legs.

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That is all.
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 10:39 · Score: 0

Phones and tablets are not solely media consumption devices just because you can name some niche applications that currently only run on desktops. You need to get with the times, grandpa.
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by Barlo_Mung_42 · 2013-04-19 11:18 · Score: 1

Last quarter everyone said how bad the PC did but 76+ million new units still shipped. Very few people use a tablet as their only computing device. Most people use them as companion devices but still have a pc of some type. This means they don't buy new PCs as often as they once did but they are still buying them. The PC market will shrink and this will hurt the oems that can't adjust but MS will be just fine.
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by Parker+Lewis · 2013-04-19 11:26 · Score: 1

My kids do all gaming on my tablet. They listen music in my tablet. They watch Netflix on it. Their friends too. They're 4 and 5 years.
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by Kjella · 2013-04-19 12:23 · Score: 1

They just seem unimportant until she can't do that 10% that she needs to do.
But if you just need some laptop for the occasional, not so intense use (or at least rarely enough you don't care) then any cheap laptop will do. Not to mention if they win the first 90%, they'll start making software and docking hardware for all the people who don't want to buy a whole laptop to use 10% of the time. I mean if you have this one application that you need to dual boot for or run in a VM or WINE or whatever - wouldn't you rather have a native or web solution? It will be the same for tablets, the fewer things you need the PC for the harder you'll look for replacements.

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Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 12:50 · Score: 0

You still are missing the point Sir_Eptishous is making. No one is going to go out and rewrite specialized enterprise software systems to run on iOS or Android. They are entrentched in the enterprise market. Due to that position future enterprise software will continue to be written for Windows because that's what is out there.
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by yzf750 · 2013-04-19 13:13 · Score: 3, Informative

What about companies that process credit card transactions? What about inventory control software for food processing? Apple? Linux?
Actually those touch screen POS terminals you see in most bars and restaurants? Linux. Those touch screen bar top games? Also Linux. Now the computer in the back office that those communicate with for the managers and chefs? That's probably Windows XP. Some of the POS terminals are Windows embedded from years and years ago, but mostly the POS terminals are Linux. They do the credit card reading/authorizing and inventory if the system is set up for it.
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by Alex+Belits · 2013-04-19 13:44 · Score: 0

You will find that you can't without a physical object in your hand.

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Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 15:49 · Score: 0

Okay, where to start?
Windows is for people who can't. Those who can, do; those who can't, buy Microsoft.
Self-referential? Notwithstanding the Microsoft Fanboys, to say that it's the only game in town is silly. The framework that works is Linux.
Linux is displacing windows in the server market.
Why?
One. Because the Windows licensing model is ridiculous and expensive.
Two. Why use expensive crap when you have other products that are free and do the job better.
Three. Virtualization in Linux works great, windows, well; I'll be kind and say it's a little buggy.
Four. Windows permissions and group policy, who really thinks that works great? UAC? I mean wow, I know stupid when I see it.
It's all FIXABLE, but Microsoft never fixes it!
Servers: Microsoft fails, Linux better and if Apple ever decides to take the business market, Microsoft will have to up their game in a big way or start being a "hardware company" for real.
Desktops: All you have to do is look at the Imito mini PC to see a glimpse of the future of consumer computing. Yes desktops are going away, software will be very different, and Microsoft will be another Packard Bell if they don't pull it out of their cavity.
Those who say I'm a Linux Fanboy are right. I like success so, I use and do things that keep me there. Windows can't do that for me, it's not designed to.
It's designed to gush money into the Microsoft coffers.
It really doesn't matter whether you agree or not with my logic. Microsoft will continue to be Microsoft, and I will continue to use Linux.
More importantly; if you use a windows based solution; you will always be looking for one. Best of luck! ;>)
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by Ambassador+Kosh · 2013-04-19 19:05 · Score: 1

Somehow I suspect that no matter how powerful a mobile device is a desktop device will be far more powerful. I do think eventually more content creation can be done on mobile type devices but I don't see doing things like figuring out how to create a DNA based structure (used in nanotech because we can predict how it will fold very accurately) and figuring out the kinetics of the reaction will happen on those devices. No matter how much computing power we have we can always use that computer power to create more accurate simulations. Those simulations improve the medications a few more percent, cut the risks a bit more and understanding how to write those simulations is hard.
If Microsoft actually continues on this multiple applications open at once and desktop hostile approach it means that the engineering apps will end up moving to some custom version of linux. It won't be a happy transition but that is where it would end up. Being able to hook up MATLAB, Excel, HYSYS, Aspen Plus etc makes for some pretty nice toolchains for doing complex simulations and being able to generate output for everyone from managers to other engineers.

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Computer modeling for biotech drug manufacturing is HARD! :)
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by Ambassador+Kosh · 2013-04-19 19:07 · Score: 1

That and I don't think I want to try and run HYSYS or Matlab on a mobile platform. There is some limited ability to run MATLAB remotely from a mobile device but you need to have a desktop version running somewhere for it to connect to it and it is pretty limited.

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Computer modeling for biotech drug manufacturing is HARD! :)
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 19:40 · Score: 0

Hook your comp to your TV, get a wireless keyboaryd and, now this is key, a gyroscopic mouse, these have accelerometers in them as well so a quick flick of the wrist throws the cursor across the screen. Add an HDTV tuner and a console controller and you are done. For controller compatible games you have that, for KB/M you have that, for ass-groove comfort you have that and so you don't miss anything on TV the comp can do the transcoding in the background with today's massively overpowered multicore CPUs.
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by ruir · 2013-04-19 20:04 · Score: 1

Ever you ever heard of Apple and Linux? I maybe a old time that havent used Windows since 1998, however I work in a faculty and we are seeing logs of students using Linux and Macs. Each time I go to the communal/study areas, there are more Macs. It is actually easier to switch to Linux or Mac than to adapt to all changes between Windows versions.
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by ruir · 2013-04-19 20:08 · Score: 1

Talk about you want about entreprise having an hell of a time. In the academic world, Mac rules, and even in my faculty in Europe, we estimate makes are roughly 30-40% of the equipment people bring to work, just to avoid use Windows in their assigned desktop. We also have a lucky few that have corporate Macs, and thats growing by the day. These people will actually move to the enterprise sector, with their Mac culture. Cisco, a giant, is keeping tight lipped about Mac being more than 50% of their corporate environment, and when you are hired they let you actually choose between a Mac notebook or a "regular" notebook. So you say, "good luck"?
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by cyber-vandal · 2013-04-19 20:30 · Score: 1

I would want it paired to a keyboard and a mouse, have at least dual screen monitor support and able to run all the different browsers. Any tablets capable of that?
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by The+Cat · 2013-04-19 23:25 · Score: 1

This is complete crap.
The only things a mobile phone or tablet are better at than a PC are reading e-books and playing music. The web on a mobile device is awful. The battery life is awful. The software is awful. The UI is clumsy, slow and imprecise. The graphics are slow and crammed into crappy little screens.
Not to mention the fact that every mobile device is 100% owned by some corporate shithole.
Mobile devices will forever be dependent on PCs because mobile devices can't be used to write their own software. You can't do shit on a mobile device creatively.
If you're plugging a hardware keyboard into a mobile phone, you're just trading one set of PC hardware for another.
My PC is literally one billion times more powerful than my tablet. If you're in IT and you are prepared to dump the PC overboard after we've invested 30 years in developing it into a massively useful tool, without putting too fine a point on it, you're an idiot.
The PC will never be supplanted by tablets or phones. It's here to stay. Get used to it.
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by The+Cat · 2013-04-19 23:29 · Score: 1

Wins the thread. Drive safely everyone.
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by The+Cat · 2013-04-19 23:31 · Score: 1

If you plug a mouse, keyboard and two monitors into a phone, it's a shitty underpowered un-upgradeable PC.
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by LordVader717 · 2013-04-20 00:15 · Score: 1

Actually, inventory control absolutely *loves* tablets and smartphones. There's probably a lot of savings to be had using relatively cheap mass-market gadgets vs. dedicated devices. Factories are also experimenting with uses in the manufacturing environment. I can't see why they shouldn't replace the embedded Windows devices. I think these industries much more innovative than they're given credit.
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-20 00:59 · Score: 0

As the developer of some of the software on those POS terminals and someone that knows people that work for the manufacturers, nope. XP Embedded is ordered on 99.9% of them. Not that you can tell...!
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by yzf750 · 2013-04-20 01:55 · Score: 1

Maybe the POS system company you work, or contract for is 99.9% XP Embedded, but in the past several restaurants I have worked for, it is Linux on most of the touch screen terminals. You can easily tell when the terminal is rebooted and you see Linux loading instead of Windows. Micros and Squirrel are the two most recent vendors, where I have worked and of the 3 restaurants, only one had one XP embedded terminal, all the others were Linux.
Granted, once presented with the actual POS interface, you can't tell if it is Windows or Linux. Just like those bar top systems designed to separate you from your money even faster than a Vegas slot machine.
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-20 04:23 · Score: 0

I do everything on my PC's, I use Linux Mint Cinnamon for web browsing, listening to music and watching video. I occasionally play game on Windows and I program on Windows using putty and winscp to unix and vicious studio for c++ cross platform programming. I would still be happy with XP if they kept updating via service packs, but there revenue model requires they resell an OS licence every 3-5 years.
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-20 19:11 · Score: 0

Can they run Crysis 3 on a tablet? ;)
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by Gob+Gob · 2013-04-20 20:57 · Score: 1

So if "enterprise" moved apps to the "cloud" then everything you said is moot no?
...do you think "enterprise" wants to keep all this stuff inhouse forever?
Re:How relevant is the PC, still? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-22 18:41 · Score: 0

This. A tablet or a phone just won't cut it when it comes to anything more than checking bus or cinema schedules.
No matter how trivial the task, a PC can do it better. Organizing music, watching videos, reading news.
Tablets and phones aren't even good for entertainment, so there's no point even mentioning work stuff.

Simply adjust Metro vs Desktop to remove pain by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 07:32 · Score: 5, Insightful

No big move required, but they need to do a few things
- Allow the return of the Start Button for those who prefer it.
- Allow start to desktop
- In multi monitor setup, allow one sreen to be locked to Start Screen and/or metro applications
- Make it easy for developper to target Metro and Desktop within the same .exe
- Make apps that with great value in metro, but they need to still show a status icon when in desktop
- ex: if in desktop mode, the skype app need to show the alert if there is an unread message, particulary when we get back from a game

Re:Simply adjust Metro vs Desktop to remove pain by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:52 · Score: 1

- Allow Metro apps to be sold outside the Windows Store, and assure power users that the desktop platform will never be locked in to an appstore-only ecosystem.
Re:Simply adjust Metro vs Desktop to remove pain by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 09:58 · Score: 0

Not just start button but a start menu then kill off the charms menu on the desktop.
Re:Simply adjust Metro vs Desktop to remove pain by Dr+Max · 2013-04-19 14:24 · Score: 2

i'd like to add to that
- Be able to decide where applications open (whether they are opened in metro or desktop)
- Embrace Linux, be the OS the manages the other OSs.
- Better voice recognition, kinect, and AI elements (processing must be done locally).
- Incorporate more virtualization into the delux (whatever it's called) package for quick sandboxed activity.
- Personal cloud (maybe in the xbox, no one actually likes the idea of giving their data away).
- Also get nokia to make a windows pro phone (full OS, it's not for everyone but it'll shut up the geeks) and an Xbox phone and tablet (possibly done similar to the nexus line with multiple manufactures).
- And make those 3d hud glasses for the xbox.

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Rocket Surgeon.
Re:Simply adjust Metro vs Desktop to remove pain by FatLittleMonkey · 2013-04-19 16:14 · Score: 1

Why not move Metro onto/into the desktop? Vista/Win7 already has "widgets" on the desktop (that nobody uses.) This would be a way on re-introducing it in a more robust form. Taskbar (and Start button) would still be there. And people would be more gently introduced to the Metro-UI. By Win9 they can start weaning users off the taskbar, if they are determined to go in that direction.
But what they have now is two entirely different UI's crudely bolted together. As if someone decided at the last minute to bolt the RT interface onto the desktop version, but didn't really think it through.

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Science is all about firing a drunk pig out of a cannon just to see what happens.

All about corporate users now by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 07:32 · Score: 3, Insightful

From what I see in friends and family, the consumer section of Windows is really doomed. I know the next time I buy a computing device for say my parents, it won't be a Windows PC. Maybe a tablet, maybe a Chromebook, but the average consumer...moms, dads, students, kids, etc. has probably had enough of Windows. Microsoft has effectively ceded the consumer market. They had a chance with Surface, but blew it on bad (expensive) pricing. Nokia and windows for the phone is their last, slim chance to reignite the consumer, but prospects are dim.

On the corporate side...the horizon for Windows is much longer. All it takes are one or two key windows apps and the entire company is locked into the platform. Even if those apps are only used by only some of the employees, the IT staff are loathe to run a mixed desktop environment. So it would take a big shift, a real progressive initiative to move from Windows, at least at my Fortune 50 company. And Fortune 50 companies are not generally known to do that sort of thing...

Re:All about corporate users now by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 07:52 · Score: 0

So the real question is, who cares about the consumer? The number of companies making consumer products is shrinking almost as fast as the middle class that can afford to buy them.
Re:All about corporate users now by Brett+Buck · 2013-04-19 07:54 · Score: 1

They haven't ceded the market, they were blown out of it by superior competition. No one using a computer casually for email or surfing ever needed Windows. It was just the only practical option, "practical" being a debatable term. It was and always has been tortuously inefficient and ill-suited for consumer use, basically junk but the only junk most people had.
As soon as you could get something like a properly-designed system with decent user interface and interaction like a Mac, for a price that was affordable, the game was up. It took a few years for people to realize it but it was essentially inevitable.
BTW, CmdrTaco aside, this all started with the *iPod*. People got them, they worked remarkably well, and people started realizing how junky Windows was.
Brett
Re:All about corporate users now by UnknowingFool · 2013-04-19 07:56 · Score: 1

From what I'm seeing, most companies are slowly moving to web apps which are becoming more platform agnostic. The key applications that my company uses are on the web from trouble tickets to timesheet entry. Yes Office is still used but with the vast majority of users, Office 97 would fufill their needs if we still had it.

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Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Re:All about corporate users now by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-20 06:16 · Score: 0

This, a thousand times THIS! Plus, when you take into account the need for retraining your users to get past the issues with the Metro interface, how much more expensive is it to train them on a free linux distribution that heavily mimics the Windows XP/7 interface standards? Most business targeted linux distros include all the basic productivity software that most users use, have web browsers that can run those web centric / cloud based applications, are just as stable as windows XP and approaching Windows 7 in that regard, and don't need extremely high horsepower systems. I've noticed a few of the small and mid-sized businesses in my area make the switch to Linux for all but a few systems that are tied to specific windows applications that I assume can't run under wine. IF they really follow the money, this is why things are the way they are.

Find out what we need to get work done! by djdanlib · 2013-04-19 07:32 · Score: 2

It would be nice if they would just ask us professionals what we need, and then proceed to deliver that, instead of doing all this trend-surfing.

Who cares if people say Mac did feature X/Y first, or if it looks like a phone, or has / doesn't have some sort of fancy transparent chrome? Make it modern-looking but don't let that be the major selling point. I have to get work done on it.

All I care about is that I can sit down and work efficiently, and that my computer doesn't interrupt me with idiocy. I don't care if I have to learn how to use something new - I'll do that - but efficiency means that I want it to stay out of my way, present the current state of operations clearly to me (something both Windows 8 and MacOS/X fail at), and not demand that I use it like a phone! I already have a phone, I'll use that if I want to use a device like that, but I want to use a desktop computer more productively.

I know, I know... I'm using a Web browser and posting on Slashdot. Meanwhile I have a VS2012 situation happening on another screen and it is not pleasant.

Re:Find out what we need to get work done! by wisty · 2013-04-19 07:42 · Score: 3, Insightful

They asked professionals what they wanted. The answer was "Windows 7, fuck another upgrade".
Windows 8 is aimed at consumers, not professionals. It's not even aimed at making consumers happy, it's aimed at training consumers in Microsoft's touch UI, so the consumers will consider getting a Surface Pro / RT, or a Windows phone.
Microsoft realised, after about 10 years of Apple kind its ass, that touch devices are here to stay. So they are trying to leverage their PC dominance to drive the sales of post-PC devices.
Will this upset professionals? Most of them won't upgrade anyway. Windows 7 is good enough for them.
Re:Find out what we need to get work done! by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 07:48 · Score: 0

Dude, if clicking on the lower left hand corner of the screen to get to your desktop prevents you from getting work done, may I suggest that the problem may not be Windows 8...?
Re:Find out what we need to get work done! by Opportunist · 2013-04-19 08:31 · Score: 1

Yes, touch devices are here to stay. And they are great! They're great for cellphones, they're great for pads, they're great for handheld devices.
They are an absolute NIGHTMARE for desktops. There is a very good reason why so few touch-screens ever sold. Mostly 'cause there are simply so terribly few areas where it makes a real lot of sense to reach up from the work area to the screen.
The reasons why touch devices are popular with handhelds is that there's usually very little room to place a mouse when using something like this. There is when you're working with a PC.
So who in their sane mind though that modeling a PC OS after a handheld device is a bright idea?

--
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Re:Find out what we need to get work done! by WheezyJoe · 2013-04-19 09:17 · Score: 1

Dude, if clicking on the lower left hand corner of the screen to get to your desktop prevents you from getting work done, may I suggest that the problem may not be Windows 8...?
The problem IS Windows 8 when you have to make your whole desktop disappear to look up and start another app (read: break your concentration).
The problem IS Windows 8 when launching the printer config or the picture viewer or the movie viewer or certain control panels makes your whole desktop go away because these apps (surprise) have been made Metro and it's full-screen or nothing.
The problem IS Windows 8 when you depend on running 4 or 5 apps at once to get your work done, each with multiple windows, and goddamn charms keep bouncing up because your mouse hit the corner of one of your multiple screens.
Many of the above may be solved simply by installing Classic Shell, Start8, etc. But as Microsoft pressures developers to develop in Metro, the more often work on the desktop will get interrupted for some full-screen nonsense. On a tablet? Okee sure. But not with two 28-inch monitors, at work.
The whole point of windows in a GUI is to see and do more than one thing at once. Windows 8 needlessly defeats this for the sake of emulating a tablet on a PC.

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Take it easy, Charlie, I've got an Angle...
Re:Find out what we need to get work done! by ruir · 2013-04-19 20:11 · Score: 1

It depends on the professionals you are talking about. If you ask hard core sysadmin, network people, creatives, and academic, you will most likely heard to hell with Windows, with want Mac. Even my workmates that administer Windows bitch about it, and have Macs at home.
Re:Find out what we need to get work done! by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 22:08 · Score: 0

That very right.
Windows 8 is a Windows reset, a mind change, like Vista, they break a lot with the past, with Vista the step was bigger because it was about the inner workings of the system.
Windows 8.1 or maybe 8.2 will came and will be a success but the hard work will be done with the first version.
I can understand that non professionals dislike the new interface because people hates change, but I don't understand we professional bitch about a system that has lots of advances.
Re:Find out what we need to get work done! by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-20 07:11 · Score: 0

Intelligent post of the day award.

Windows has no competition on the desktop by cinarus · 2013-04-19 07:32 · Score: 0, Flamebait

So it will never die. GNU/Linux just doesn't cut it and you can't run OSX if you don't buy Apple hardware. It's been like 20 years since the first Linux release and still we're having problems with sound cards, wireless networking and bluetooth adapters crashing down the whole system. Until somebody steps up and writes a stable-API OS alternative for the common PC, Windows will never die. It might lose some sales due to the nature of computers being sold (i.e. more people use tablets because they didn't need a desktop in the first place), but as long as desktop/laptop computers are being produced, I don't see how it can die.

Re:Windows has no competition on the desktop by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 07:48 · Score: 1

See? Trolls are still alive and well. There is nothing in parents post that wasn't a line. Linux has ruled the supercomputing space for a generation. Its owning the tablet/phone space, and would have slaughtered the desktop were it not for the predatory monoploy (the Sherman act failed to break in 2000, even though it worked successfully broke AT&T in 1982, and Standard Oil in 1892). I have never had a problem with sound on Linux (its always worked fine) since I started using it in 1994. Likewise, wireless networking, bluetooth and other devices have worked fine for years. Oh, and this is Linux, nothing brings the whole system down, except the power switch. Windows blows over in the wind. Linux (running on Army tanks, Navy Ships, and Air Force Jets), doesn't die even when shelled, bombed or sunk. As for the story, we were all happily waiting for windows to die. For some of us, it died decades ago.
Re:Windows has no competition on the desktop by kthreadd · 2013-04-19 07:52 · Score: 0

True, but it's the desktop that is at risk. Last year Apple alone sold more iPads than the entire PC industry sold desktops. That's why Windows 8 is going tablet, because desktops is going away right now.
Re:Windows has no competition on the desktop by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:18 · Score: 0

You might want to tell that to my clients who run million dollar companies entirely on OSS software. They would have a hearty laugh at your naiveté!
Re:Windows has no competition on the desktop by kesuki · 2013-04-19 08:26 · Score: 1

i have been using ubuntu for over a year now. i don't game as much but my laptop is coping just fine without windows. my laptop still can boot windows, but it doesn't need to, because everything else is easier and more open than windows. i did recently replace a cheap gaming desktop with a windows 7 custom built rig (built right by myself the other i obtained through people who didn't know what they were doing) but i only game on weekends (because i can only handle so much gaming time) so most of the time i use linux and android devices. i just bought a tablet to see if a tablet with a keyboard can replace my use of a laptop during the week, the phone is too small a screen, and hooking it to the tv only works well for streaming netflix.the laptop is over 3 years old, so i have some time to decide if i really can make due with a tablet, or if it's just yet another toy.

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https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
Re:Windows has no competition on the desktop by cinarus · 2013-04-19 09:37 · Score: 0

Recent sales figures may not be a direct indication of long term success for tablets. When people get a PC, they tend to use it until it breaks in some way. Modern PCs are so powerful, you would never need to upgrade them unless you're doing something which makes use of all available resources. In comparision, tablets still have a way to go. Hardware vendors manage to cram in more and more computing power into the portable format each year. So, upgrading tablets makes sense. I have friends who have an iPad, an iPad mini and are considering to upgrade to the newer iPad. Tablets will sooner or later reach the point where it doesn't make sense to upgrade. When that happens, there might be more tablet users than there are PC users, but there are some places where PCs will have to be in use.
For instance, office jobs need workstations with big screens, keyboards, ethernet connections, multiple USB ports, etc. You could hook up all these to a tablet and use it as a workstation, but then your system is no longer a tablet. It's just another kind of PC with a removable motherboard. At that point, the selection of the PC system depends on which one is more interoperable with other systems. Applications, databases, printers, security cameras, Outlook, what have you. This in turn depends on the operating system used. It doesn't matter whether a computer is made of discrete parts or an ARM SOC.
Android (I believe it's the most popular tablet OS, but I'm not sure) was not designed for this purpose. It's designed to be a content-viewing system and would probably need a lot of work before it can compete with Windows in interoperability. So we come to the same point again. Somebody would have to make a general-purpose operating system with a stable API. A stable API for application developers, so that a security update (which is only available in the next release of the distribution due to some kernel dependency) which also changes the Qt version doesn't break their programs. A stable API for device driver authors, so that their hardware will still be usable after two years.
Windows has so much momentum that it would take a lot of time and money to kill it, at least in the work place. For home use, we might get stuck between expensive workstations and crappy tablets which don't work well with other devices.

Windows 8... might not be important by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 07:33 · Score: 0

If we look at the past versions of Windows, particularly the recent versions, Windows 8 may well not be that important in the grand scheme of things.

At the moment, Windows 7 is 'the new XP'. Few companies went/are going for Vista, so Windows 7 is likely to be the corporate choice for quite some time.

Windows 8 could be the new Vista from the corporate point of view, so MS could quite happily take a risk with Windows 8, in the full knowledge that from the corporate viewpoint, Windows 9 (or whatever the next version becomes) may well be the version of choice.

Windows 8 therefore perhaps doesn't matter as much as many people think. It is likely to be the next version of Windows that has to be better received.

Re:Windows 8... might not be important by Opportunist · 2013-04-19 08:33 · Score: 1

To me it looks more like 8 is going to be the new ME.

--
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.

Well we know one thing at least by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 07:34 · Score: 0

After all, the company still has a lot of really smart developers and engineers, a whole ton of cash, and the ability to let its projects play out over years.

It's all about the developers, developers, developers...

It depends on Xbox. by HerculesMO · 2013-04-19 07:34 · Score: 1

Microsoft isn't making Windows 8 the blockbuster OS that we want... they are making the ecosystem a blockbuster, with Xbox, their cloud offerings and integration, TV, entertainment, and desktop computing.

Honestly I don't know if it's going to be a hit, but MS has the time and patience to see this play out, and as much as I like to think them incompetent, they have some really, really smart folks working there. Ballmer might be a bit of a tard, but realistically I think that we will see Windows Blue and the new Xbox really tie together the ecosystem. I already like my Windows Phone (I know I am in a small minority of people who have it), and if it works well across the ecosystem as Apple has had success in, then I think there's success waiting for them in the future.

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The price is always right if someone else is paying.

Re:It depends on Xbox. by MightyMartian · 2013-04-19 07:48 · Score: 1

The XBox is a niche product. For this scheme to work, they need people on PCs and portables to buy into it. Thus far, this is where it's failing. Maybe it will turn around, but if an app ecosystem is what Redmond is trying to create, then they're back to competing against the very mature (and very populated) iOS and Android app ecosystems.
If Microsoft folds and allows users to upgrade to Windows 8.1 with the familiar Start menu launcher, then they will undermine this goal, and yet, it's looking increasingly like they have no choice. If they don't Windows 7-ize Windows 8, they risk exactly the same situation that screwed Vista; everybody just parking at the early release. If they do Windows 7-ize Windows 8, then risk undermining the very ecosystem project they're trying to go after.

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The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Re:It depends on Xbox. by UnknowingFool · 2013-04-19 07:57 · Score: 1

For consumers like me that don't have a console machine, the Xbox is rather irrelevant.

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Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Re:It depends on Xbox. by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:20 · Score: 0

Xbox was more relevant last generation, when you needed $300 of hardware to stream HD content to your television. Now that feature is built into the TV or is a $50 accessory, and Xbox is largely something that only 'serious gamerz' (males aged 14-24) care about.
They had plenty of time to build a content ecosystem around Xbox / Zune / Windows Phone, but now it looks like they missed their window and it's too late.

Q:"what can be done to turn things around?" by msauve · 2013-04-19 07:35 · Score: 4, Funny

A:Re-release Win XP, and call it Windows 9.

--
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law

Re:Q:"what can be done to turn things around?" by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:00 · Score: 1

I'd agree with that if you had said Windows 7 which I feel is the best OS Microsoft ever came out with.
Re:Q:"what can be done to turn things around?" by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:02 · Score: 1

WIndows 7 is arguably superior to Windows XP.
Re:Q:"what can be done to turn things around?" by meglon · 2013-04-19 08:19 · Score: 1

If i had mod points i wouldn't know whether to mod you "funny" or "insightful," but i'm leaning much more towards "insightful."

--
Fascism: An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. See also: NAZI's
Re:Q:"what can be done to turn things around?" by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:48 · Score: 0

XP 64-bit, now with drivers!
Re:Q:"what can be done to turn things around?" by toddestan · 2013-04-19 14:40 · Score: 1

I would do Windows 2000. How else would they get people to upgrade to Windows 10? :)

Fire everyone! by macbeth66 · 2013-04-19 07:36 · Score: 2

Keep Ballmer.

Whatever.

No... by AndrewX · 2013-04-19 07:36 · Score: 1

...the obvious reason is the enterprise market. Another reason is everyone that uses Windows based tools for their hobbies and projects of all kinds. Touch screen laptops will become a lot more popular eventually, I think... However Windows is far from dead. People just already have Windows PCs that work for them.

I have a few other reasons that their market dominance isn't threatened by their not so stellar wWindows release... They are Vista, ME, '95, etc...

Re:No... by JSombra · 2013-04-19 23:40 · Score: 1

"Touch screen laptops will become a lot more popular eventually"
Touch screen laptops will do even worse than desktop touch screens. If you are in a physical position (in bed, laying down on the sofa so forth) where you can comfortably use a laptop touch screen, you are most likely not doing serious productivity work and would be better suited to be using a tablet. If you are doing serious productivity work you are most likely to be sitting at a desk/table and then you face same reason the desktop touch screens don't do well.
If anything, the whole concept of laptops is heading toward extinction, net-books are already dead (nearly everyone has stopped making them), laptops will be soon be such a very tiny niche market that we would not be far off off the truth calling them dead as well

Fire Everything! by Azamantes · 2013-04-19 07:38 · Score: 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Io0OQ2zPS4

but XP is doomed by RobertLTux · 2013-04-19 07:38 · Score: 1

http://www.timeanddate.com/counters/fullscreen.html?mode=a&iso=20140407T115959&year=2014&month=4&day=7&hour=11&min=59&sec=59&p0=1244&msg=Windows%20XP%20End%20Of%20Life

352 days remaining

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Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge

Re:but XP is doomed by Opportunist · 2013-04-19 08:38 · Score: 1

That means exactly zip to most users. As long as the system doesn't stop working, they don't give a damn. No more security updates? It's not like they installed any in the first place.

--
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Re:but XP is doomed by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 09:49 · Score: 0

In what way will XP stop working ?
It is possible that if hardware fails and/or is replaced then re-activation may be unavailable. That should be fixed by a class action or warez. Otherwise XP and the installed software will just keep running.
MS, and you it seems, want to use FUD to scare people into sending more money to Microsoft.
Re:but XP is doomed by RobertLTux · 2013-04-20 04:39 · Score: 1

the big problem is similar to the one that windows 3.1 faced back in the day
SOFTWARE WILL STOP SUPPORTING XP (google no longer supports anything farther back than MSIE 9 which means they no longer support XP )
as far as any CALs are concerned why do you think that MS has had the EOL date published for what the last year??
you do know that FUD is only FUD if there is not a lot of TRUTH in what is being said.

--
Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge

Same old song, second verse same as the first by davmoo · 2013-04-19 07:39 · Score: 5, Insightful

Yeah, Windows is dying. Just like this is the year that Linux takes over on the desktop. Or is this the year that Apple takes over? Or CP/M makes it comeback? OS/2? I forget, I've heard them all so often.

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I want a new quote. One that won't spill. One that don't cost too much. Or come in a pill.

Re:Same old song, second verse same as the first by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:12 · Score: 0

Plan 9. That was a step up. Too bad people are too lazy to get over their fear of heights.
Re:Same old song, second verse same as the first by UnknownSoldier · 2013-04-19 08:28 · Score: 2

You have jest but one does have to wonder at the amount of embedded Linux devices (Set-Top-Boxes, Android*, Servers, etc) that are out there ...
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_(operating_system)#Linux
Re:Same old song, second verse same as the first by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:33 · Score: 1

Yeah, Windows is dying. Just like this is the year that Linux takes over on the desktop. Or is this the year that Apple takes over? Or CP/M makes it comeback? OS/2? I forget, I've heard them all so often.
You're not paying attention.
The point is not "Microsoft is going stop making money and go bankrupt next year."
The point is not "Windows is going away, everyone will switch Linux/Mac/blah"
The point is not "the PC is going away, everyone will use phones/tablets/Google Glass"
The point is, nobody cares about the the desktop. Windows, Mac, Linux, nobody gives a shit anymore. Desktops are about as interesting as can openers. We all need them, we always will, and there are companies make money selling millions of them every year...but nobody gives a fuck which one you have or what company makes the best one. Everyone pretty much gets the cheapest one that''ll do the job.
Re:Same old song, second verse same as the first by Parker+Lewis · 2013-04-19 11:29 · Score: 1

Linux is not in your desktop. But in your Samsung TV, in your smartphone, in a lot of devices in your house. Sure, not the "Year of the Linux in the Desktop". But it needs?
Re:Same old song, second verse same as the first by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 21:29 · Score: 0

If you count phones as computers then Android is the best selling operating system but it won't have the largest installed base until later this year.

Separate operating systems by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 07:39 · Score: 0

For starters they could stop treating the PC like a glorified tablet.

The PC isn't dying by RobinH · 2013-04-19 07:39 · Score: 5, Insightful

Anyone who thinks the PC is in any sense dying hasn't worked in an office that does business with other companies. There is a *huge* amount of work that consists of physically typing stuff into databases (purchase orders anyone?) and retrieving stuff from databases, and all of this work is done with a keyboard and mouse. Spreadsheets. Forms. Stuff still gets printed out and filed! Nobody wants a tablet to do this. I think there might be room for tablets out in the warehouse, but even those are likely to be Windows based. Mac? Sorry, businesses look at the price difference and can't stomach paying nearly twice as much for the hardware. I'm certain that home PC sales are diving, and that's probably a good thing, but in our office we're expanding the number of PCs because we want access to information everywhere, and more data entry everywhere, and they're cheap! PCs are the work-horse of enterprise data. So what if we're buying them with Windows 7 Pro on them instead of Windows 8? MS still makes money.

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"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain

Re:The PC isn't dying by Nadaka · 2013-04-19 07:55 · Score: 1

My tablet has a keyboard and mouse and runs andoid on a tegra. I could even use a full size usb or bluetooth keyboard if 92 keys are not enough, or a large format flatscreen through hdmi if 10.1 inches isn't enough.
That would work just fine for nearly every office job out there short of heavy duty image/video processing or debugging enterprise software.
Re:The PC isn't dying by i+kan+reed · 2013-04-19 07:56 · Score: 2

Yes, but as software gets more advanced, tools to replace the people doing mind numbing data entry will fill more and more gaps. It will continue like that until the whole company is just the CEO with 3 buttons: "screw the customer", "screw the employees", and "screw the government".
We will continue to praise them as a society for just how fast they can press those buttons.
Re:The PC isn't dying by babywhiz · 2013-04-19 07:58 · Score: 1

Thank you. *hands you the /. equiv of reddit gold*
Re:The PC isn't dying by UnknowingFool · 2013-04-19 08:02 · Score: 2

And anyone who can't see outside the office paradigm can't see that MS is in trouble in some ways. Take my local coffee shop. In years past they may have needed a POS system running embedded Windows. They use an iPad and Square to handle payments. The owners may need a computer to look at the books each month but that doesn't require MS. They use a Mac and LibreOffice. Square has dramatically lowered the barriers for small businesses.

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Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Re:The PC isn't dying by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:05 · Score: 0

>That would work just fine for nearly every office job out there short of heavy duty image/video processing or debugging enterprise software.
And costs more than the equivalent PC.
It also won't run Matlab or Visual Studio. Nor will it run IE6 or a whole host of other applications that people in business rely on.
Re:The PC isn't dying by Hentes · 2013-04-19 08:22 · Score: 1

It's not dying, but it has stopped growing which has a great impact on sales. It's a natural thing that happens to every device when it gets universally adopted, but Microsoft couldn't jump ship before that happened and that is biting them hard.
Re:The PC isn't dying by Ultra64 · 2013-04-19 08:32 · Score: 1

"My tablet has a keyboard and mouse"
So it's a laptop?
Re:The PC isn't dying by Nadaka · 2013-04-19 08:37 · Score: 1

No its a transformer.
Re:The PC isn't dying by nightsweat · 2013-04-19 08:45 · Score: 1

Matlab? What the hell business uses Matlab on a line user's machine?

If you have a basic spreadsheet, word processor, and browser you cover 75% of most business users' needs. Add in presentation slide show maker software to cover another 10%.

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the major advances in civilization are processes which all but wreck the societies in which they occur - A.N. White
Re:The PC isn't dying by Nadaka · 2013-04-19 08:45 · Score: 1

you only need visual studio for developing windows desktop software. Which will be pointless once windows desktops die off.
Matlab is a niche tool for a specific technical field, not unlike heavy duty image/video processing or debugging enterprise software. And it is also available for linux, so even if you need more powerful hardware, you are not limited to windows PC's.
IE is the devil and a long time ago it should have been taken out behind the wood shed and shot, have its corpse desecrated, dismembered and fed to pigs, which should then be shot, desecrated, dismembered and fed to other pigs, etc.
Re:The PC isn't dying by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 09:11 · Score: 0

The percentage of success stories in Dianetics and Scientology is over ninety-nine percent.
Re:The PC isn't dying by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 09:39 · Score: 0

Anyone who thinks the PC is in any sense dying hasn't worked in an office that does business with other companies...
Either that, or they manufacture PCs.
Re:The PC isn't dying by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 10:01 · Score: 0

> Anyone who thinks the PC is in any sense dying
No one is trying to steal your desktop PC from you. There will still be as many PCs around in a few years time. It is the PC _market_ that is dying.
In most cases the current PC in use is good enough, no longer are machines being replaced every 3 years. If more computer access is required then consumers are buying smart phones, tablets and smartTVs and keeping their XP or Win7 desktops that are several years old.
Up to and including Vista each new version of Windows required much more resources. Consequently the new version required a new machine, or at least a large upgrade. Malware would also drag down the performance of the machine so that a PC a year or two old was slower than the previous machine they threw out.
Window 7 fixed all that: faster than Vista on the same hardware, less malware. Win8 is even better in that respect. But this means that 5 or 6 year old machines are still good enough with Win7. There is no need to buy another. Hence fewer PC sales, the _market_ is dying. Plus they spent the budget on iPads and Android phones.
Re:The PC isn't dying by Algae_94 · 2013-04-19 12:55 · Score: 1

Oh damn! MS lost software sales for two machines at that coffee shop. Maybe they can make it up in the nearby multistory office building with nothing but desks that have windows boxes on them?
Re:The PC isn't dying by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 13:21 · Score: 0

My tablet has a keyboard and mouse and runs andoid on a tegra. I could even use a full size usb or bluetooth keyboard if 92 keys are not enough, or a large format flatscreen through hdmi if 10.1 inches isn't enough.
That would work just fine for nearly every office job out there short of heavy duty image/video processing or debugging enterprise software.
Can you join your tablet to the corporate AD?
Re: The PC isn't dying by UnknowingFool · 2013-04-19 14:47 · Score: 1

Small businesses make up

99.7 percent of U.S. employer firms
64 percent of net new private-sector jobs
49.2 percent of private-sector employment
42.9 percent of private-sector payroll
46 percent of private-sector output
43 percent of high-tech employment
98 percent of firms exporting goods
and 33 percent of exporting value

In other words, small businesses are important to America and they are increasingly less dependent on MS.

--
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Re:The PC isn't dying by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 15:56 · Score: 0

but it's much easier to have all the users on the one OS, so even if only 10% of users need matlab (engineering firm could easily do that) it makes sense to give every one pc (some more expensive than others) and save money on hassle.
Re:The PC isn't dying by Ambassador+Kosh · 2013-04-19 19:19 · Score: 1

Part of the power of MATLAB is all the stuff you can integrate it with. Most of that integration is only with windows applications. You can't integrate MATLAB with openoffice/liberoffice and that is a serious liability. Someone can send me raw data in excel (fairly common) and I can highlight the cells and export them to MATLAB and do any advanced calculations and then send the data back to excel with a click.
MATLAB also integrates nicely with many other engineering applications that are windows only apps.

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Computer modeling for biotech drug manufacturing is HARD! :)
Re:The PC isn't dying by cyber-vandal · 2013-04-19 20:39 · Score: 1

I need visual studio for developing Windows Server software. That's not going anywhere. Windows is full of niche tools for specific technical fields. It only takes one or two pieces of Windows only software to trap people on it.
Re:The PC isn't dying by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 23:13 · Score: 0

but most coffee shops are filled with wankers, it makes sense to have them feel at home.

Reminds me of... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 07:39 · Score: 0

Vista. OMG MS is dead, they'll never recover. Morans.

Not doomed by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 07:40 · Score: 0

Of course Microsoft isn't doomed. Their software is installed on virtually every PC sold, they have their hands in multiple markets, including mobile, console gaming, servers and desktop computers. They are a hugely profitable company. Why in the world would the board fire Ballmer? Microsoft is making giant piles of money, that is what Ballmer's job is, making the company profitable. He's obviously doing a pretty good job because Microsoft still has the lion's share of the PC market, a respectable share of the server market, a good position in the console market and nearly every big business buys their Office software. They aren't doomed, they are doing very well and people who think otherwise obviously aren't looking at Microsoft's bottom line.

Steven Sinofsky Was Probably Fired for This by RudyHartmann · 2013-04-19 07:40 · Score: 1

Steven Sinofsky was the head of the Windows division of Microsoft. He was probably fired. But he says he left for his own reasons. Yeah, sure. That should tell us that even Microsoft realizes they pooched this deal. Everybody I know that got a computer with 8 on it has begged me to put 7 on it for them. But I actually put OpenSuse 12.3 on a bunch of machines lately. UEFI is a pain in the a$$ too.

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Oh, yeah! Wise guy, huh? Woob woob woob woob! Nyuk! Nyuk!

AD? by Ubi_NL · 2013-04-19 07:40 · Score: 1

Please name an alternative for AD that is suitable for small businesses and that can be administered by junior admins ( i.e. the ones that small businesses can afford). Afpd is a joke, and linux ldap is just too complex for a small office. Im not trolling, I'd really like to know what i can switch to. ( samba is not an answer. I do not mind paying for the software, i just do not like the smb protocol and the windows acl system)

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If an experiment works, something has gone wrong.

Re:AD? by HerculesMO · 2013-04-19 07:43 · Score: 1

Get small business server. AD is not going to change, and if a junior admin can't figure out how to do basic tasks in AD then he's an idiot and should be fired.
AD is not hard for a small office, though it can be complex (as can LDAP) for larger enterprises.

--
The price is always right if someone else is paying.
Re:AD? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 07:48 · Score: 1

How small?
Samba4 is a real option
Standard kerberos can also get you server based auth,
if that's all you really need.
Re:AD? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 07:55 · Score: 0

edirectory
Re:AD? by Anon-Admin · 2013-04-19 07:56 · Score: 1

I hate to say it but there is not a good one. I have been in the IT field for 20+ years and I personally hate AD, however there is no real alternative. I have watched the open source solutions for years and they tend to be way to complex for a Jr admin and no where near as easy to get going as AD.
A note to open source developers: Come up with a replacement that can work in AD's place for Windows, Linux, Mac, etc. and is just as easy to set up. With that you could get a foothold in the Directory market place. There is no real competition for AD and it is needed badly.
Re:AD? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 07:58 · Score: 0

THIS!
There is no equivalent with the combination of control, user friendliness, and ease of administration of AD. As complex as AD gets, it is always a more simple setup then it's competitors.
Say what you will about most of their stuff, but they really hit the ball outta the park with AD. The biggest reason there hasn't been in inroads on the corporate desktop is because no one has come up with an equivalent. F/OSS hasn't even realized what the problem is!
Re:AD? by geek · 2013-04-19 07:58 · Score: 1

What are you using AD for exactly? I see a lot of businesses using it for no real good reason, just because some IT person told them they really really needed it.
Anyway, you can look into http://www.freeipa.org/page/Main_Page but I've never used it and have no idea how easy it is. I suspect if you need something "easy" then you probably don't need it at all.
Re:AD? by Ubi_NL · 2013-04-19 08:03 · Score: 1

I jus want to get my office to organize their files nd be able to print and get some work done. If you o not understand this you never organized a small office trying to make a profit

--

If an experiment works, something has gone wrong.
Re:AD? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:07 · Score: 0

http://www.resara.org/
Re:AD? by Sir_Eptishous · 2013-04-19 08:11 · Score: 1

AD was a PITA at first, but I would say it is pretty decent for the last few years.

--
We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
Re:AD? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:26 · Score: 0

Or don't waste your time. Within five years, all of this stuff will be going SaaS, and the idea of small businesses running their own servers will be seen as archaic.
Typical small business server -- some ducktaped Pentium 4 box which hasn't been backed-up since 2008.
Re:AD? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 09:33 · Score: 0

I jus want to get my office to organize their files nd be able to print and get some work done.
As the old saying goes, you had a problem. Then you decided to solve it using AD. Now you have two problems.

If you o not understand this you never organized a small office trying to make a profit.
Good one. Still, you've forgotten to add the usual closer, along the lines of I'll be here till Sunday. And try the veal, it's delicious!
captcha: winged. Yeah, that's MSFT alright
Re:AD? by LDAPMAN · 2013-04-19 09:33 · Score: 1

eDirectory works. The problem is Open Enterprise Server on Linux is way to complicated for a junior admin. That and that Novell can't sell ice water in hell.
Re:AD? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 09:37 · Score: 0

Small businesses don't need AD.
Re:AD? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 10:47 · Score: 1

What are you using AD for exactly? I see a lot of businesses using it for no real good reason, just because some IT person told them they really really needed it.
>

AD is much much more than user and passwords. At its most basic level it is a directory for storing information. User information, application information, computer information. It includes Kerberos for authentication tickets. Group Policy for manager settings for users and/or computers. These settings can also include application installations. These are critical tools.
Ad as the user authentication backbone work great for linux, mac, RADIUS, etc. I would like to use another LDAP server with reasonable schemas in an easy to setup and use package that also includes kerberos and multi-master replication. Although group policy is largely files stored on the domain share, there needs to be a way to tie that into the directory. Even if you come up with that package, will exchange, SQL, IIS, Sharepoint, Dynamics or any other ERP system play nicely with it?
Re:AD? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 11:42 · Score: 0

"Organise their files".
The file directory system does this fine.
If not, what are you talking about?
"[a]nd be able to print"
SAMBA is fine here. Absolutely no problem setting it up. Unless you use Canon printers. Get HP. Complaints of "Why should I buy a specific type of printer if all I want to do is print?" will be met with "When your 9x-era printer no longer had drivers for Vista/7, did you buy new printers?".
"and get some work done"
Unless their work is "Work on AD", they don't need AD to get work done.
Re:AD? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 14:21 · Score: 0

I'm sorry what? AD isn't needed? Lets not worry about managing our companies user accounts centrally? Just give them some consumer device and give them the local administrator password?
Or what about managing windows updates, printers, network shares, roaming profiles, .... the list goes on and on
and on.
Have you even used AD before? Have you ever actually seen it used PROPERLY? (clearly you don't know how to use it if you think its so useless)
How is someone with a 4 digit account so naive?
Re:AD? by c0lo · 2013-04-19 14:52 · Score: 1

Apache directory

--
Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.

Re:There is only one possible course of action. by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 07:42 · Score: 1

I'm pretty sure that's what happens in capitalist America...

Not doomed yet, but . . . by Kimomaru · 2013-04-19 07:42 · Score: 1

As the platform it is right now, I can imagine it losing more and more ground as better alternatives come to market. Window's main problems are that it's just not a secure platform, it doesn't update or patch without reboot or disruption (so people avoid patching it altogether) and frankly it just likes to stop working whenever it feels like it. After about 15 years, it's the same list of problems. It needs to be scrapped and redisigned. Windows 8's interface is a wreck and if MS is going to create a walled garden approach, they really need to ask the end users and developers if they like the idea first. They're steering the ship on stock price, not product quality or vision.

Not any more than HP by MickLinux · 2013-04-19 07:42 · Score: 4, Insightful

Gotta remember when Carly came to HP. It didn't doom HP. What it did do, was turn HP into a typical fortune-500 company: that is, the compost heap of companies failed.

HP is still around, and will still continue to take over failed companies, and compost them, losing value the whole way. Moreover, they will still be the "standard" for government agencies and colleges, regardless of value.

And yes, they will continue to have bright people, and waste their prime years in irrelevance.

Microsoft will be the same. Shoot, I expect Google to become that, too. After a certain size, good management is highly improbable; bad management is highly probable.

But that doesn't mean they won't have occasional blockbusters again, and won't be a "force to be reckoned with". They are, and will be. They'll just be of marginal value to anyone who deals with them.

--
Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's

Re:Not any more than HP by PRMan · 2013-04-19 08:28 · Score: 1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_components_of_the_Dow_Jones_Industrial_Average
Look at this list. Go to the bottom and work your way up. How many of those companies are still large? How many still exist? This is what will happen to Microsoft if they don't lose the arrogance.

--
Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
Re:Not any more than HP by dbIII · 2013-04-19 17:48 · Score: 1

After a certain size, good management is highly improbable; bad management is highly probable.
It attracts the medieval style madness of attractive posts being granted as gifts to whatever useless horse judge is thought to be deserving of such a gift due to personal or political connections and not capability.

News for Windows - Stuff that Windows by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 07:43 · Score: 0

Windows 8.1 May Restore Boot-To-Desktop, Start Button
ZDNet Proclaims "Windows: It's Over"
Why PC Sales Are Declining
Windows 8 Killing PC Sales
Set Your Watches For the End of Windows XP
Apple Devices To Outsell Windows For First Time Ever In 2013
Major UK Retailers Mislabel Windows RT As Windows 8
Falling Windows RT Tablet Prices Signify Slow Adoption
Windows Blue 9364 Screenshots Show Feature Enhancements
Ubuntu Tablets: Less Jarring Than Windows 8?
Report: Windows Blue Reaches Its First Milestone Build

It's not dead yet... by xQuarkDS9x · 2013-04-19 07:44 · Score: 1

It's not dead yet because of... Developers Developers Developers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMU0tzLwhbE :D

--
You must master your joystick like a fisherman masters bait! - Gimpy

with the number of XP machines out there by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 07:44 · Score: 0

no... for better or worse, windows is the devil you know.
corporations that are still using xp, are stuck usually by thier own red tape.
i've been using 8 for a while now. and i see the metro interface as a great one to give the users access to only the applications they need.
90% of our users have only 2 applications open, and one of them is email.
(i even run my applications full screen, ok i have 3 screens...)
and yes M$ missed the point of the start menu, especially for those how really USE the computer. and push it as far as it can go
you use what ever program(s) you need to either produce artwork or programs the way you want it to. (make it work)

the "metro" interface, yes when i want to sit back and watch a movie on my pc, (and allway full screen) makes sence.

they also missed the idea of NOT having mystery meat navigation

Innovation does not come from a company by Anon-Admin · 2013-04-19 07:45 · Score: 2

Innovation does not come from a company it comes from competition!

The issue here is that Microsoft has killed the competition, No longer does innovation flow through competition.

Back before windows 95 we had Windows 3.1 and Dos. Dos was produced by Microsoft (MSDOS), IBM (IBM DOS), and Digital Research (DrDOS).

As one would come up with an innovative feature and gain some market share, the others would follow and add a new feature of their own. Each to try to regain the lost share and expand their market. When Microsoft combined Windows and DOS to create Windows 95 they killed the other dos manufactures. Thus creating there market dominance. From that point on they continued to flounder with few major innovations and more and more redesigned of the GUI or adding features that no one wanted or used.

The money they have along with the "really smart developers and engineers" do not matter, they have no real competition. Linux is the closest thing they have had to competition in years and it has never really grabbed enough market share on the desk top to spur the innovation and product life cycles that Microsoft would need to keep going. Dont get me wrong, Linux is stellar and I run it everywhere I can but without the pressure there is no market force to force the innovation.

On the server side, you can see Linux forcing innovation with Microsoft's announcement that admins should learn command line as Windows server GUI will be going away, as well as many of the server advancements that Linux has and Microsoft is implementing.

Do I think Microsoft desktops will survive, no. I see a slow erosion to obscurity. What replaces them may be Linux, Mac, or something completely new designed to use the new technologies that are emerging. I do however see Microsoft continuing for many years, struggling with the desktop and pushing more and more to servers and the cloud.

Windows == COBOL by Todd+Knarr · 2013-04-19 07:46 · Score: 1

Windows is dead in the same way COBOL is dead. Windows 7 and earlier have too large an installed base. Even if Windows 8 flops and Microsoft can't recover from it, the Windows and Office and IIS and SQL Server installed base will insure they've got a revenue stream for years to come. And Windows 8 isn't going to be an unrecoverable blunder, Vista proved that. At worst MS will tweak and fine-tune Win8 and Metro and turn it into a phone/tablet OS, with Win7 continuing as the desktop OS and Windows Server 2008 and 2012 as the server OS.

This of course is where MS's emphasis on integrating everything hurts them. Taking Windows 8 and slapping the same UI as Windows 7 on it would solve a lot of their problems. But because of the tight integration, they can't just do a forklift upgrade of the Win8 UI.

Re:Windows == COBOL by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 13:13 · Score: 0

COBOL is still alive and well at your local bank's mainframe.

Win8 trumps Mac OS, linux or Chrome by whirlin · 2013-04-19 07:46 · Score: 1

Windows 8 is faster than Windows 7 and it runs on tablets. It's a win for everyone except a few disgruntled tech journalists. By the Christmas shopping season, everybody who is buying, will be buying touch laptops, leaving old style laptops looking quaint. Even iMac like computers in the near future will be touch by default and Microsoft will be on the forefront. Fewer and fewer people are buying computers and laptops, but Microsoft has the best OS out there (compared to Mac OS, linux or Chrome).

Re:Win8 trumps Mac OS, linux or Chrome by MightyMartian · 2013-04-19 07:54 · Score: 2

If it's so fucking wonderful, why can't they sell Surface and Surface RT devices? They're getting their asses kicked by iOS and Android devices. Hell, I'd say they're not even a meaningful competitor in the market place.
Clearly iPads and Android tablets (especially critters like the Nexus 7) do everything users want, because they're buying them in fucking droves.
Hell, I bet Kobo is selling more fucking Arcs than Microsoft is tablets.

--
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Re:Win8 trumps Mac OS, linux or Chrome by Dr.+Spork · 2013-04-19 08:07 · Score: 1

If it's so fucking wonderful, why can't they sell Surface and Surface RT devices?
Maybe because so far, they're shitty devices? When a Surface kitchen table falls to $1500 and I can use it for roleplaying games and board games, then we can talk again.
Re:Win8 trumps Mac OS, linux or Chrome by DougOtto · 2013-04-19 08:31 · Score: 1

Touch by default? If your finger touches my screen, I reserve the right to break it off.

I can't imagine the hellish nightmare retouching 1000 photos would be with a screen full of finger smears. You'll have to pry that mouse out of my cold, dead, hands.

--
Solving Unix problems since 1989...
Re:Win8 trumps Mac OS, linux or Chrome by MightyMartian · 2013-04-19 08:31 · Score: 1

Because that will be such a huge market (rolling eyes).

--
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Re:Win8 trumps Mac OS, linux or Chrome by Opportunist · 2013-04-19 08:47 · Score: 1

Windows 8 is faster than Windows 7
debatable

and it runs on tablets
why should I care when I need an OS for a desktop?

. It's a win for everyone except a few disgruntled tech journalists.
So far I don't see the win for me yet. Where exactly is my gain?

By the Christmas shopping season, everybody who is buying, will be buying touch laptops, leaving old style laptops looking quaint.
Again, whatever, but I still need an OS for a desktop.

Even iMac like computers in the near future will be touch by default and Microsoft will be on the forefront.
Thanks for the warning that I shouldn't buy that toy either, but I still need an OS that allows me to simply type my reports without having to lift my hands constantly to spread finger prints all over my screen

Fewer and fewer people are buying computers and laptops,
why should they, people usually buy new computers when they see something in an OS they want. They don't do so currently.

but Microsoft has the best OS out there (compared to Mac OS, linux or Chrome).
Oh, now I get it! Sorry, man, sarcasm is really hard to spot in a written medium!

--
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Re:Win8 trumps Mac OS, linux or Chrome by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 16:58 · Score: 0

Meh. If I want to type, I don't want a touch device - I want a hardware keyboard. If I want a touch device, I don't want to type. These are different use cases. The easiest thing is to plug a keyboard into a touch device and switch interfaces cleanly, not try to have a bad unified interface that does nothing well (ie Windows 8).

No longer windows everywhere by GreatDrok · 2013-04-19 07:47 · Score: 1

When you had to have windows and all the software and tools were on windows them they were unassailable. With multiple strong platforms, that monoculture is dying away and that's the real danger for Windows. Sites will continue to use it, but they won't have to so MS will have to compete on merit against alternatives that really can do the job. Sure, the office setting is probably still their strongest area but outside of that, what USP do they have? Oddly enough, Netscape presaged this day 20 years back and MS were scared enough to put all their customers at risk by bolting their own browser into Wndows and making it the defacto standard and cutting everyone else out to protect their monopoly. Windows 8 is just the same play but this time they don't have the dominance in the markets they're trying to shove their product into and everyone wants to have access to their data from all devices so that means the tools chosen can't just be windows tools. Since much of what MS does is so deeply tied to having windows all the way, sites look elsewhere. They need to play nice and be more open, and there are some signs of this but it may take them a long time to become a good citizen and the days of windows everywhere are definitely over.

--
"I have the attention span of a strobe lit goldfish, please get to the point quickly!"

Re:There is only one possible course of action. by kthreadd · 2013-04-19 07:47 · Score: 3, Funny

Is there a difference?

Microsoft is much like Iambic pentameter by Miketsmith · 2013-04-19 07:47 · Score: 0

I've been a windows user since the 3.1 days. What I have found is every other version of windows sucks pretty bad. So they make it work 50% of the time. The problem that they are having is people like familiar operations. Take the car for instance, you don't see people trying to innovate the basic controls of a car (for the most part) Most of the cars on the market operate in a similar fashion. You have a wheel that steers you, pedals that make you go faster or slower and if you are a car power user a stick or paddles to manually select a gear. I think that Microsoft saw that tablet sales were on the rise, and so they thought everyone wanted a tablet. Well, I have a tablet. I also have a computer. I don't want my computer to be a tablet, that's what the tablet is for. Contrasting a little bit, it would be like a car manufacturer seeing that motorcycles were on the rise, so they decided to swap the steering wheel of the car for something more akin to a handlebars. It's just not going to work. What I believe they need to realize is that their "innovations" with the operating system need to NOT do the following things: - Prevent people from adapting (I still get tripped up when I need to find things that are in control panel in windows 7) - Prevent people from being more productive in work cases (Look at the companies that still use windows XP) - Prevent (insert something here) Instead they need to focus innovation in areas that actually make it a better operating system such as - Memory management - Time it takes to load a program/whatever - Command line tools for people that actually know what they are doing. Come on Microsoft. Stop sucking, and start doing something useful.

Many of their long term strategies have been so-so by PseudoCoder · 2013-04-19 07:47 · Score: 1

Other than Windows itself, they're still second or third place in pretty much every domain they've gotten involved in that I can think of off the top of my head. Apple's been eating their lunch in the home user and mobile space. They're still behind Google in search and mobile as well, and won't hold a candle to them in cloud services, at least for a while. The console market doesn't seem to be that hot, and they're second or third there too.

I mean, they've got Exchange/Office, as mentioned by a previous poster, but generally speaking it seems to me that many of their attempts in other segments will likely continue result in burning cash to continue to be behind the lead dog. How long can that last?

Messing up Windows is like killing one of their golden geese.

--
"Now, I doubt any of you would prefer a rolled up newspaper as a weapon against a dictator or a criminal intruder."

A future for Microsoft... by Type44Q · 2013-04-19 07:47 · Score: 2

But maybe it's not doomsday for Windows or Microsoft.

Of course it isn't! They always retain the option of releasing a Linux distro. :)

doomsday is exaggeration by swan5566 · 2013-04-19 07:47 · Score: 1

MS will still have its big niche in the corporate world, mainly because no one really touches this area yet. The thing is that before smartphones and tablets, this niche was the only game in town for all computing needs. Remember Apple before OSX? Now if Apple decided to try its hand with cost-effective, enterprise-wide software, ...hmmmm....

--
In debates about Christianity, there are two groups: those looking for answers, and those looking to just ask questions.

Windows 7 by chromaexcursion · 2013-04-19 07:48 · Score: 1

Exactly!
Windows 7. Just keep up with the security updates.
And new Tech, like H.265.

Said it before.. by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 07:49 · Score: 0

Win 8 is a disaster. And the problem with the end client fading - is that fundamentally its been a client server relationship. If MS make an end point and it won't hook up to AD (RT) and others are buying different end points to windows 8, then why have IIS, MSSQL, MS server, Exchange.

Today, if you are looking at a big sharepoint, IIS, MSSQL, Exchange, MS server, AD - and the bring your own disaster is sweeping the business, and the offer from MS is here, you can have RT, and 8, You might well look on and wionder what fucking planet the MS board are sat on, cos it's hard to imagine they have a clue here.

I can fix 8, with some modding, and retrofitting a start menu, and take it back to an OS that actually runs 99% of windows software vaguely as it should. But the question is - why? If MS are being so cretinous about their own platform, I'm not gonna try and fix and bodge it back into shape because of vendor idiocy.

I spent some time talking across mail with Sinofsky. The man was clearly driven, and he was able to complete projects. The problem is that you have to make sure good projects are well run by such people. Bad projects driven to completion and heralding your own destruction well projected by such people are dyabolically bad news.

Frankly its as if MS has lost engineering. Its replaced it with unix heads (Hi mr snover) and with grads who are hopelessly clueless and come up with metro and RT garbage.

And its not just metro that sucks donkey balls. The example applications are almost always WORSE than what people had before.

The board should be rol;ling heads NOW, because if they don't get a grip, this is likely to grow out of control quickly. If the end client flatlines, the rest of their server and application products that depend on it follow. Its synbiotic.

Turn things around? by Kwyj1b0 · 2013-04-19 07:49 · Score: 1

Why do you assume things need to be turned around? By which I mean they might not be headed in the wrong direction completely, just going off on a tangent.

Here are some facts: more and more people will have at least one "consumption" device such as a tablet, as well as a smartphone. A section of the population will have a full-fledged development device (laptop/desktop) for work and/or at home. People will prefer that all the devices have a uniform interface and are part of one ecosystem.

Right now, I have a Windows 7 laptop, a Windows 8 desktop, a Linux desktop, Android phone, and a Kindle e-reader (with a Kindle Fire on the way). It is not as nice as a single-ecosystem environment CAN be. No single OS is great for all platforms yet - for me (I count Android and a Linux Desktop OS as different).

I believe every OS company will push for a unified experience, and that is the right way to go. Is Windows 8 the solution? No, but I don't think it is as horrible as most people make it out to be. On my dual-monitor setup, I prefer it to Windows 7.

The concept of a unified experience cannot and should not die. They need to take their user feedback, and act on it - specifically make the switch from desktop to tablet smoother. Have a start button that brings up the start screen, put in an edit box on the top of the start screen for desktops (making it more obvious - though if you just start typing on the start screen, it works), make it easier to find the shut-down and restart options on PCs/dekstops: little things like that.

IMO, Windows 7 is a great GUI-based desktop environment. For command line/remote access OS, I'd choose Linux any day. Windows 8 is a bit too tablet for desktops - they have the right idea, they just removed some stuff that people expect to have on desktops in their haste to make it tablet-ey. Scale back a bit. Don't try a single generation leap to a unified OS. Baby steps.

Re:Turn things around? by binarylarry · 2013-04-19 07:54 · Score: 1

So you're saying copy Android in order to beat Android?
I guess it worked for Android. ;)

--
Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
Re:Turn things around? by UnknowingFool · 2013-04-19 08:13 · Score: 1

Here is what is starting to hurt MS. Previously you needed a computer to surf the web and do email etc. These days you don't. For the average consumer, the PC was just the only form factor that was available. These days you have smartphones and tablets if don't want to use a desktop/laptop. The decline in PC isn't exclusively the fault of Win 8. People are starting to use other form factors. Also PCs bought several years ago are good enough. Unless you are a gamer, no consumer needs the latest and greatest hardware. Lastly, for those that needed/wanted a new computer, Win8 was the final nail. It's horrible if you don't have a touchscreen. It's only barely tolerable in desktop form if you do.

--
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Re:Turn things around? by Algae_94 · 2013-04-19 13:03 · Score: 2

Kind of like the decline of oil lamps was because people didn't need them to light their homes anymore, they had electric light bulbs. If the market has indeed changed like this, MS can either try to get into the new markets, which they are kind of trying without a lot of success, or they can accept a dominant position in a smaller market (PCs).

It's not windows that is doomed... by bodland · 2013-04-19 07:51 · Score: 1

The users are.

All of this has happened before... by RevWaldo · 2013-04-19 07:52 · Score: 1

...and all of this will happen again.

--
Prisencolinensinainciusol. Ol Rait!

You are asking SlashDot about MS? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 07:52 · Score: 0

You may as well ask jackals about the prospects of an old lion.

Not doomed. by LoRdTAW · 2013-04-19 07:52 · Score: 1

Windows 8 may be a failure but windows itself, as in the platform is far from dead. And Microsoft is more than just Windows. These ass hat authors write these controversial FUD articles to draw in readers and spark flame wars. Its simply to get Ad revenue.

Yes, fire Steve Ballmer by JDG1980 · 2013-04-19 07:53 · Score: 3, Insightful

So here's the question, Slashdotters: Is Windows really doomed? And, if not, what can be done to turn things around? (No originality points awarded for a 'Fire Steve Ballmer' response.)"

Just because "fire Steve Ballmer" isn't a particularly original insight doesn't mean it is not correct. He's been a lousy CEO, and the manner in which he has jeopardized the company's vital enterprise business in a fit of Apple envy proves that he's the wrong man for the job.

A large number of home users with modest IT needs (web surfing, social networking, simple games) have already switched to iOS and Android for most of their computing needs. That horse has left the barn; that ship has sailed. These users are not coming back to Windows. And the truth is that Microsoft can survive without them. What Microsoft cannot survive is the loss of business users. This is where the bulk of their revenue comes from, and it's also the least threatened area of their business. Legacy lock-in, the fact that most people are already trained on Windows/Office, and the interdependence between various MS enterprise products (Windows, Office, Exchange, SharePoint, MS SQL Server, etc.) means that businesses will find it difficult and expensive to leave the Windows platform. And most of them don't really want to, since it serves their needs where a smartphone/tablet OS would not. This is why Windows 8 was such a strategic blunder. Microsoft alienated the people whose support it needs in a failed attempt to reclaim low-margin, low-volume customers who already left.

Microsoft needs to accept that it's a mature company now and that it isn't going to post stunningly high profits or make major innovations on the OS front. It should focus on incremental improvements to the Windows platform. If they bring back the Start menu and the option to boot directly to the Desktop in Win8.1 as has been rumored, it will help mitigate the damage.

Companies in general ought to focus on their core competencies, and under Steve Ballmer, this basic rule of business has been forgotten at Microsoft.

Re:Yes, fire Steve Ballmer by david.emery · 2013-04-19 08:14 · Score: 1

Mod parent up insightful!

SNAP! by bodland · 2013-04-19 07:53 · Score: 1

Click!

but who are they competing with? by stenvar · 2013-04-19 07:54 · Score: 4, Interesting

Windows might be in trouble, but who is going to replace them? Android and iOS are pretty limited platforms and not exactly fun to program. OS X is getting very long in the tooth, has very limited hardware offerings, and Objective-C is less pleasant to develop for than C#. And just as Gnome/X11 looked like it was going to provide a fairly stable desktop platform, the Gnome, Wayland, and Ubuntu developers have screwed things up big time again. Much as I loathe Windows 8, I think it's still going to win by default on the desktop.

Re:but who are they competing with? by selectspec · 2013-04-19 08:25 · Score: 2

Good question. Answer:
Smart phones & Tablets: everyone who only used a pc for web and email no longer needs a pc.
Gamers: Its only a matter of time before high-end gaming machines all switch over to Linux.
Developers: Visual Studio inst cheap, and it sucks for developing anything except Windows software. With Windows software becoming relegated to mostly server-side development, pretty much every developer these days codes on multiple platforms and likely has Linux and/or a mac.
Business Users: As business users move to phones and tablets, they want spreasheets/presentations/etc (office docs) that work on phones and tables, and no they don't want the Windows phone. They want it to work on their phone, which means open standards, open/cloud based office apps. These will be the last to switch. I would have thought this would take many years, but businesses are looking at Windows 8 with such dread, that it might happen sooner.

--
Someone you trust is one of us.
Re:but who are they competing with? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:42 · Score: 0

Chrome OS. Yes, you laugh now. But wait.
Re:but who are they competing with? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 09:15 · Score: 0

Right now a Chromebook looks pretty good. If Google can somehow get businesses to accept using the cloud, then OS is irrelevant. If Google can find a way to put their "cloud" onto a businesses network, then Windows is done.
Does that mean MS is done? No, there's a whole back office to sell. I don't see SQLServer going anywhere soon.
Re:but who are they competing with? by stenvar · 2013-04-19 09:29 · Score: 1

Smart phones & Tablets: everyone who only used a pc for web and email no longer needs a pc.
But Windows 8 is OK for that; if they beat iOS on price, they're probably OK.

Visual Studio inst cheap, and it sucks for developing anything except Windows software..
XCode sucks even worse than VisualStudio and its cross platform support is just as poor. And although I like developing on Linux, most people seem to want more handholding than that.

Business Users: As business users move to phones and tablets, they want spreasheets/presentations/etc (office docs) that work on phones and tables, and no they don't want the Windows phone
Right now, they are getting bulky laptops with obsolete versions of Windows and loaded down by corporate Windows crap and Blackberry phones. Heck, even I'd prefer a Windows RT tablet and Windows 8 phone to that.
Re:but who are they competing with? by SpiralSpirit · 2013-04-19 14:58 · Score: 1

yes, companies will be running around looking to put all of their data and user interactions on google's servers. That's a realistic solution. Or I'm being sarcastic.
Re:but who are they competing with? by stenvar · 2013-04-19 18:09 · Score: 1

For small businesses, that's not a problem at all: restaurants, florists, hairdressers, carpenters, small manufacturers, etc. already use a lot of cloud services, and they couldn't do anything more reliable or secure than what Google offers. Large businesses will likely be able to license Google's software and run it on their own internal servers, or Google might even run their services on their own hardware for them as a service (similar to the way IBM used to offer mainframe services).

Simple by Registered+Coward+v2 · 2013-04-19 07:57 · Score: 1

1. Don't try to be Apple. Your strength is as a fast follower. Let others identify a good sea and then use your cash, trchnical exepertise and market position to capitalize on it.

2. Identify the most desirable customer segments and focus on them. Forget those that are low return.

3. Find out what those segments really want and have a laser focus on delivery

4. Get rid of any product where you cannot compete and that down't play to your core customer base.

5. Give Ballmer a raise and move him to the board.

--
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.

Outlandish opinions are *not* predictions by GodfatherofSoul · 2013-04-19 07:58 · Score: 1

Windows is cemented as THE platform to target to give your desktop apps the largest audiences. Unless Windows loses that monopoly or someone develops a rock-solid ubiquitous cross-platform interface to build apps on top off, Windows is not going anywhere. Even if Microsoft screws the pooch and implodes with ventures in other markets, they'll always have that diamond in their pocket.

--
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!

Re:Outlandish opinions are *not* predictions by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:10 · Score: 0

No...actually the internet browser is the platform to give your apps the largest audiences. This way, you can support Windows, Mac OS X and Linux very easily.
Re:Outlandish opinions are *not* predictions by Algae_94 · 2013-04-19 13:06 · Score: 1

Unless Windows loses that monopoly or someone develops a rock-solid ubiquitous cross-platform interface to build apps on top off, Windows is not going anywhere.
This could be why Microsoft never really tried to push .NET cross-platform. They could just port .NET to every other platform out there, put less emphasis on the OS and focus more on their productivity software. If they could sell Office for any new device that shows up, I doubt they would be too concerned with windows sales.

forgetting something, are we? by sribe · 2013-04-19 07:58 · Score: 4, Insightful

After all, the company still has a lot of really smart developers and engineers, a whole ton of cash, and the ability to let its projects play out over years.

And really bad management, clinging to stupendously dysfunctional and wasteful project management practices.

Windows will weather the storm (natch) by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:00 · Score: 0

Let's put this all into perspective. Windows 8 launched during a period in which we are seeing low-information computer users drifting toward simpler devices such as phones and fool proof non-multitasking tablets. During this period we are still also in a worldwide recession and corporate spending is still pretty low. The fact that MS still managed massive profits and strong overall revenue growth indicates they will weather this storm fine.

Yes there are some flaws in Windows 8, notably the attempt to put a touch interface style at the forefront of a desktop / laptop OS that is mostly used on non-touch devices. However power users that have used Windows 8 note its snappyness, faster boot up and clean screen elements as being net advantages over Windows 7. Basically it's a solid upgrade of Windows 7 with the two notable exceptions of the start screen and the missing start menu.

Phones and tablets will not replace a desk based environment for power users and productive users that do more than use apps and browse messages on their devices. The obvious nature of this is not apparent to casual users.

Simple by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:01 · Score: 0

The idea came from SJVN, it's clearly bullshit.

Easy solution. by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:01 · Score: 0

Fork windows 7.

Linux Desktop coming in 2015/2016 by Dracos · 2013-04-19 08:01 · Score: 3, Funny

Windows is pretty much competing with itself at this point, and Win8 isn't offering compelling reasons to upgrade. Metro is a compelling reason not to upgrade. Windows Phone is doomed to be an also-ran, no matter what MS does.

Tablets are a fad in the consumer space which will fizzle out in 2 years. Microsoft won't be able to break into this market, just like their other consumer-oriented efforts (Zune, Kin, Windows Phone... everything except XBox) failed. However E-readers will continue to sell. Tablet equals fancy electronic clipboard... if you don't havea sue for a clipboard, you have little use for a tablet. In certain vertical business markets, tablets can make sense. In the end, tablets are for consumtion, not production, and touch UIs are a step backward. The PC isn't going to die any time soon.

I suspect the OEMs are already looking for ways to hedge on Windows. They'll push back harder when their windows distribution agreements come up for renewal, because Win8 is a failure and MS is encroaching on their turf with the Surface. The big OEMs will start seeking partnerships with major Linux distros soon, preparing to launch hardware with Tux stickers in 2015 or 2016. And all of them will be begging Valve to let them pre-install Steam. Pressure from the OEMs will force AMD, nVidia, and Intel to get their Linux video drivers up to snuff.

The units will be slightly more expensive because the OEMs won't have libraries of crapware at the ready, but most people on /. will agree that's totally worth it. Even now there's little reason for the average person not to drop Windows for a real OS, and by the time all this happens, it'll be even easier.

Re:Linux Desktop coming in 2015/2016 by Sir_Eptishous · 2013-04-19 08:08 · Score: 1

Tablet equals fancy electronic clipboard... if you don't havea sue for a clipboard, you have little use for a tablet.
This

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We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
Re:Linux Desktop coming in 2015/2016 by KeithJM · 2013-04-19 08:37 · Score: 1

Tablets are a fad in the consumer space which will fizzle out in 2 years
iPads are officially 3 years old now. They certainly might still fizzle out -- netbooks were pretty much replaced by tablets, and tablets could be replaced by something else.You need some kind of rationalization beyond just saying they'll fizzle out, though. There is obviously a market for them (and netbooks before them) that traditional PCs don't fill. Something's going to fill that niche.
Re:Linux Desktop coming in 2015/2016 by KenDiPietro · 2013-04-19 08:39 · Score: 1

I think calling Windows and/or Microsoft dead is a bit premature but I do agree with your assessment of what Valve is going to do to them. One of the main reasons people give me as to why they can't leave Windows for Linux is because of gaming. Take away that lock and the Windows installed base will drop.
Let me also point out that Libre Office/Open Office is also seeing wider acceptance. If Microsoft continues to believe that moving different functions from one menu branch to another is an improvement as well as adding features that nobody ever asked for - the revenue generated from Office sales will fade away over time.
Re:Linux Desktop coming in 2015/2016 by nightsweat · 2013-04-19 08:47 · Score: 1

So wrong on tablets fading. I work in an enterprise and we're developing financial reporting apps because of executive demand. I expect tablets to displace much computer use for the typical user, and a number of our people already travel with a tablet instead of a laptop.

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the major advances in civilization are processes which all but wreck the societies in which they occur - A.N. White
Re:Linux Desktop coming in 2015/2016 by Kjella · 2013-04-19 09:19 · Score: 1

Tablets are a fad in the consumer space which will fizzle out in 2 years. Microsoft won't be able to break into this market, just like their other consumer-oriented efforts (Zune, Kin, Windows Phone... everything except XBox) failed. However E-readers will continue to sell. Tablet equals fancy electronic clipboard... if you don't havea sue for a clipboard, you have little use for a tablet. In certain vertical business markets, tablets can make sense. In the end, tablets are for consumtion, not production, and touch UIs are a step backward. The PC isn't going to die any time soon.
I don't think you realize how big tablets have gotten, here in Norway tablets now far outsell PCs - yes most people have a PC but they're not replacing it they're buying a tablet instead. Our biggest newspaper reports that in the last month they have had 1.1 million unique tablet users in a country of 5 million - that's at least 22% of the population, probably more since some share tablets and some don't visit their site. Any part of the traditional "PC" experience that people prefer to do on a tablet, will move to a tablet. And while I barely use mine and have considered selling it, I've realized I'm in a tiny minority here. Friends, family, coworkers, pretty much everyone now prefers the tablet for couch surfing and whatnot. The laptop is that old thing in the corner for writing term papers and long letters and such. And no, the normal person doesn't have a desktop.

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Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Re:Linux Desktop coming in 2015/2016 by toddestan · 2013-04-19 14:43 · Score: 1

My guess is that in a couple of years, your typical smartphone will have grown in size to the point that they will make tablets redundant.
Re:Linux Desktop coming in 2015/2016 by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-20 07:19 · Score: 0

Another in a long-line of (completely wrong) Linux-on-the-desktop-FTW prophets.
Care to meet back here in "2015 or 2016" and see who's on top, Dracos?

Linux kernel upgrades require a reboot by tepples · 2013-04-19 08:02 · Score: 1

Window's main problems are that it's just not a secure platform, it doesn't update or patch without reboot or disruption (so people avoid patching it altogether)

Ubuntu gets an upgrade to Linux about once a month, and Linux upgrades require a reboot. Or are you referring to ksplice?

Re:Linux kernel upgrades require a reboot by Kimomaru · 2013-04-19 08:20 · Score: 1

Ubuntu gets frequent daily updates that don't require reboots.
Re:Linux kernel upgrades require a reboot by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 09:01 · Score: 0

lol ksplice.
Re:Linux kernel upgrades require a reboot by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 09:37 · Score: 0

I think he meant ubuntu doesn't reboot unless you tell it to. and needing a reboot is a very rare event. Ksplice would make this even less
Re:Linux kernel upgrades require a reboot by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 10:32 · Score: 0

You need to update your HOSTS file! ...aww fuck it.

Lets finish that statement, shall we? by JustAnotherIdiot · 2013-04-19 08:03 · Score: 4, Insightful

After all, the company still has a lot of really smart developers and engineers, a whole ton of cash

...and an idiot management team directing it all.
If I've learned anything working for big companies, it's that it doesn't matter how great your grunt workers are, or how great your budget is.
If you have shitty management/leads, you will fail.

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What do I know, I'm just an idiot, right?

Win8? No big deal. by excelsior_gr · 2013-04-19 08:03 · Score: 1

So what if Win8 was a flop? Like nobody has skipped a version of Windows before... Of course Windows is not doomed. It's just that people now buy a tablet to browse the web rather than a desktop/laptop. This is also the thing that MS tried to address with Win8 (and failed). They were slow in comprehending the market behind the tablet/smartphone users. They tried to launch a tablet interface for the desktop (which desktop users didn't like) and when the same GUI came in a tablet people were under the mistaken impression that they will be using their tablet as a PC (which got them disappointed). Windows, however just can't cease to be relevant in the office market.

Reminds me of IBM by chipschap · 2013-04-19 08:04 · Score: 1

Kind of like IBM; they'll never go away either. Microsoft surely will be around for the long haul, but as happened with IBM, perhaps with less relevance and less dominance. It seems to happen to most companies when they get very large ... they can't be agile enough to really keep up with the times. Google and Applie will not be immune, either, at least not in the long run.

It is not going bust tomorrow. But ... by 140Mandak262Jamuna · 2013-04-19 08:04 · Score: 3, Insightful

Both extremes miss the mark. No Windows is not going to go kaput like blackberry. But nor is it going to have a long life in the corporate world without problems.

Root cause of the problem for Microsoft is that the truly committed talented players of the early 1990s, working hard to win marketshare and who had to implement just good enough software on puny little machines, have either burned out, or cashed out. Leaving behind mainly empire builders, insecure pointy haired bosses. These guys were promoted to high positions commensurate with their political abilities. Company is too big to manage, and there too many incompetent managers.

Add to it the most screwed up compensation model. People who get promoted beyond level 64 are termed partner level, according to my sources. They get paid a fraction of the revenue stream of the product lines they manage. So partners often have a fundamental conflict of interest. Sacrificing a little bit of revenue in a product line like Office may be needed to squelch the upstart competition, but some partner level managers planning early retirement would rather squeeze what they can for the next three years instead of taking the long term approach. That is why they kept sticking the windows os everywhere. It is Rahul xyz or Sergey ABC who gets a cut from windows stream who sabotaged all competition from the inside.

The Office/Exchange monopoly exists because they remain the king of the hill and all others work around the bugs, restrictions and the lack of features. But continually changing api, file formats security model, OS support etc to keep the upgrade treadmill going is going to grind to a halt soon. At some point people are going to say, if the next version of Exchange server can not be supported by Android XYZ or iOS ABC version, we are not going to upgrade. Already it is facing a severe revenue crunch due to the proliferation of Google Apps and other services. If the next version of Word does not work with Google Apps, guess what?, they are not going to upgrade.

Microsoft has fundamental problems. But it is too big to fail immediately. It will wallow, evaporate and decay into irrelevance in its own sweet time.

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sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact

Re:It is not going bust tomorrow. But ... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-20 07:24 · Score: 0

According to my sources (you know, factual ones and not just the voices in my head), Microsoft's Office division increased revenues by 8% compared to last year at this time. Where exactly is this fabled "severe revenue crunch" you speak of? Oh yeah, only in your dreams.
http://www.infoworld.com/d/the-industry-standard/microsoft-q3-earnings-and-revenue-all-divisions-make-gains-216847
Re:It is not going bust tomorrow. But ... by 140Mandak262Jamuna · 2013-04-21 00:49 · Score: 1

Really? 8% yoy? no wonder the stock has been flat lining for a decade now. It is too little too late to save the company.
Everytime a younger more enterprising team came up with anything innovative, the higher ups, partner level executives raking in cash from existing product lines saw it as a threat to their personal income. The way they killed it is by mission creep. "Windows is our premier product. Must support windows". "Office is our cash cow. Must support Office". And the lean and mean OS meant to run just puny little phones of 2005 died under the weight of the API.

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sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact

Get rid of Ballmer by pak9rabid · 2013-04-19 08:07 · Score: 1

...what can be done to turn things around?

Get rid of Ballmer and either bring in or promote somebody internally to CEO who knows wtf they're doing.

Doesn't have to be over by onyxruby · 2013-04-19 08:10 · Score: 1

Things don't have to be over for Microsoft and they are perfectly capable of pulling out of their slump. Their failures, and they are massive multi-billion dollar failures that are taking down the entire PC industry with them can be rectified at any time of Microsoft's choosing. If Microsoft did the following it would rejuvenate the market, restore enterprise confidence and bring back the 800 pound gorilla.

1. They need to release a patch for Windows 8 that allows direct booting to the desktop. This is a /very/ big deal for the enterprise market and will cause another 10 year repeat of what happened with Windows XP until they do.
2. They need to bring back the Start menu for the desktop. While not quite the epic level failure of the forcing the boot into Metro it is a very large issue for the enterprise market. This issue greatly strengthens the case for another 10 year repeat for Windows 7 such as was experienced with Windows XP.
3. Simplify, simplify! In their efforts to make things looks dumbed down for a toddler they made formerly simple tasks like powering down too complicated. Making things look simple is great, but not at the expense of actually making them more complicated.
4. Surface is a great product and Microsoft should do more with it, however they need to drop the price by hundreds of dollars if they are going to inspire anyone to actually buy the thing. Having a reference product (Nexus etc) is not a bad thing, but you have to make it at a price that is low enough to inspire people to actually want to buy the thing.
5. Issue a statement letting people know that Xbox 720 will not require always on DRM. This was a public relations fiasco as illustrated by Sim City and they already have problems with developers leaving their platform as being too much of a pain in the ass to work with. Having a console that is a pain in the ass for both developers and consumers is product suicide.
6. Stop customer hostile policies that are running rampant in places like MSDN and Technet. What they are gaining in stopping piracy they are more than losing in mindshare as people get fed up and don't want to deal with Microsoft anymore.
7. Stop employee ranking for reviews, the result has been the loss of good employees and blatant sabotaging of work and a complete loss of teamwork. The result has clearly shown in a loss of quality in the product that employees produce and the quality of the talent that Microsoft attracts. Nobody wants to work in a hostile workplace.
8. Provide better support to the hardware vendors that have been getting bleed dry. They are suffering significant losses, especially with the Windows 8 disaster and will soon be at the point where they don't have the financial risks they used to by banding together to support another product (Linux variant or Android Desktop variant could be a serious risk).
9. Stop ignoring your customers (hardware, enterprise, consumers) when they tell you that they don't like something and go back and change it.

Re:Doesn't have to be over by GravityStar · 2013-04-19 10:15 · Score: 1

10. A public apology by the CEO, and assurance that Metro will never again appear in Windows.

They need to define market segments by gestalt_n_pepper · 2013-04-19 08:10 · Score: 2

Business markets and consumer markets are wildly different. If they decide to continue on the consumer market, they MUST do a better job of actually paying attention to basic human psychology. It's not brain surgery. A superficial familiarity with virtually any college text on human factors would have prevented the whole interface fiasco. I was taught the exact principles that would have prevented this in the 70s. Three mile island was our favorite example. The meters that provided feedback were across the room from the controls, facing away from the controls. Kind of like the properties window being at the bottom of the screen relative to what you're clicking on.

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Please do not read this sig. Thank you.

Re:There is only one possible course of action. by Opportunist · 2013-04-19 08:10 · Score: 4, Funny

Certainly! Capitalism is exploitation of man by man.

In Communism it is the other way around.

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We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.

A poor workman blames his tools by RocketScientist · 2013-04-19 08:12 · Score: 4, Interesting

I've been thinking about the saying "A poor workman blames his tools" a lot lately.

My conclusion after a lot of thinking is that it isn't that the workman who doesn't like his tools isn't skilled, or doesn't take care of his tools Maybe his set of tools is just worn out and it's the workman's duty to acquire a new tool set. The tools change over time.

I'm a SQL Server DBA. SQL Server as a product is great. The tools, however, suck. Random crashes. Random issues. Inconsistent UI. Example 1: Mouse wheel doesn't work in a combo box. Why? Who decided that was "OK"? Lots of other piddly issues that just tick me off all day long. I hate my tools. It's probably time to try something else. This really came to roost when we put Windows Server 2012 on a box so we could do cross-subnet clustering. Love the cross-subnet clustering. The UI, however, is Metro. "Go hover over an invisible spot on the upper-right-hand corner of the UI to get to something sorta-like a start menu so you can run SQL Server Configuration Manager". Why? Why?

The user interfaces, now "improved" through the use of Visual Studio integration, are absolute crap.

I'm getting tired of being stressed on poor tools when I'm stressed on a ton of other things that actually I should be stressed on, like data integrity, performance, and efficiency. Instead I get to spend a ton of time figuring out how to start applications? Every single day I start working and I find something new that makes me go "Why do these guys think they can make good user interfaces that work consistently? Who allows them to do this?"

Re:A poor workman blames his tools by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:57 · Score: 0

Or maybe, the workman is used to what he is using and it is working for both him and his clientele/employer/what-have-you.
Then Windows 8 comes along like a foreman swiping all the familiar tools from his workmen and giving them tools that were designed for a 4 armed extraterrestrial.
Are you really going to claim that was a worthwhile or necessary change? Remember the old adage - if it ain't broke...
Re:A poor workman blames his tools by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-22 14:36 · Score: 0

That saying covers a lot of situations. A poor workman will produce crap no matter how good his tools but he can usually only afford poor tools, making his situation even worse. A good workman can produce good work with the same poor tools but he would never be foolish enough to buy them himself because they make it much harder to produce truly excellent work.

Windows might be hiccuping... by rkchang · 2013-04-19 08:13 · Score: 1

...but as long as Microsoft Office continues to dominate, Microsoft isn't going anywhere.

Windows Is Dead by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:13 · Score: 0

A decade ago, I recommended that my less computer savvy family members (brother, mother) use Windows. The desktop experience was easier to understand than Linux, and it usually worked out of the box.

Today, I recommend that my less computer savvy family members (brother, mother) use Linux Mint. The desktop experience is easier to understand than Vista, 7, or 8, and it usually works out of the box.

This is why Windows Is Dead.

Windows 8 is doomed, but Windows will survive by david.emery · 2013-04-19 08:13 · Score: 1

Win 8 provides no real reason to upgrade computers (as distinct from tablets). The compromises Microsoft did to make a single OS for both tablets and PCs result in products, particularly PCs, with serious problems. I think we'll see "Son of Win7", which may include a Win 8 skin/option.

Microsoft's big mistake this year was not continuing to sell both Win7 and Win8, pushing the latter but supporting the former for those who don't want/need the investment in hardware, in new Win8 applications or who don't care about converged laptop & tablet. Most people I know running Win7 are quite happy with it.

It's worth noting, too, that in my experience the number of "works only on Windows" applications from my company/our government customer is approaching zero. They're getting much smarter about ensuring apps run on Windows, MacOS X, iOS and Android, or more commonly provisioning applications as web apps particularly using HTML5. Flash isn't dead yet, but is rapidly being replaced as a delivery platform for anything other than video.

(Of course, I continue to be perfectly happy with my Mac -an outliner in my company-, running Windows XP under virtualization. I'll be looking for a Win7 OEM license in case my company deploys more Windows-only applications.)

Windows won't die... by gmclapp · 2013-04-19 08:15 · Score: 1

... as long as the majority of PC users are average Joes wanting a machine to browse YouTube and Facebook. The word Linux conjures up feelings of technical ineptitude in most people, even if there's no justification for that, and Apple an inflated price tag. Most people will stick with what they know, which is a PC running the latest version of Windows. To top it off, Microsoft has had a every-other-release-sucks strategy for as long as I can remember. I don't see why it would kill them now if they've managed to survive this long.

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Common Sense (+1)

Metro style UI is the root cause by non-e-moose · 2013-04-19 08:20 · Score: 1

The problem isn't Windows per-se. It is Metro. Metro is just not usable unless you have a touch screen. Enterprise PCs are not touch screen. Existing PCs are not touch screen. Making it horribly difficult to use a "traditional" (non-touch-screen) interface is a fatal flaw. And not just for Windows. Some of the newer linux distributions are equally unusable. I tried Fedora 17 for my web server. Truly worthless UI. Fine if you are running a tablet, but completely unsuited for a server. Went back to CentOS on my web server. And I've used RedHat/Centos on a regular basis since kernel 1.3.57.

Huh? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:20 · Score: 0

We hear the same thing every once in a while during Windows reign.

Overall:
3.1, Ok
NT 4.0, Excellent
95, Good
98, Better than 95
ME, Failure
XP, Excellent
Vista, Failure
Windows 7, Excellent
Windows 8, Epic Failure

Assuming M$ follows their trend over the years, Windows 9 (or whatever they call it), should be a good release. Lets hope they learn from Windows 8's epic failure

Not doomed, but in need of some help by FreelanceWizard · 2013-04-19 08:20 · Score: 1

There's lot Microsoft could do to make solid progress, starting, naturally, with getting rid of Steve Ballmer.

* Subordinate the desktop to the Modern interface. Give each program that isn't written for Modern its own virtual desktop and make them act like Modern apps in the charm bar, SideView, and the like. This whole "desktop is desktop, Modern is Modern" nonsense has got to go.
* Make a Modern version of Office.
* Remove the "Windows Store apps only" restriction on ARM so it can benefit from backwards compatibility. Backwards compatibility is the major selling point of Windows (enterprise management is the other).
* Start selling Windows to ARM device manufacturers in much the same way DOS was sold to the various 8 and 16 bit computer manufacturers. Go one step further and let people buy copies of Windows for ARM at a reasonable price to put on their own devices.
* Consider selling Windows as a subscription product, similar to Office Home Premium.
* Stop changing the API to chase your competitors. WinRT is a pain for everyone on the client side and doesn't really help drive devs to the platform. Instead, seeing JavaScript (of all things!) as one of the "key" platforms for Modern on MSDN drives away other developers. Likewise, telling WPF, WinForms, and Silverlight developers that much of what they know is useless (because WinRT is /just different enough/ to be incompatible with all of these) isn't the best way to make friends with developers.
* Correct your internal struggles by not having groups fighting with each other. If this means divesting business units or firing managers, so be it.
* Stop hiring H1B consultants and engaging in weird hiring practices, like "Interview 2.0" questions and direct out of college hires. Find the best developers for your own organization and hold on to them, rather than grinding down fresh graduates. Your developer tools group seems to understand this.

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The Freelance Wizard

Re:Not doomed, but in need of some help by Todd+Knarr · 2013-04-19 08:48 · Score: 1

So, on the UI side, how do you solve this problem: I have a Visual Studio window, a database access client window, 3 Web browser windows and 4-5 command windows of various types. I need to see most of those windows at the same time because I'm either working in them or referring to them while I'm working. Yes, I have the monitor space for this. How do you do it?
Note that saying "Don't do that." isn't an option. I'm not going back to printing out reams of paper so I can refer to reference material while I'm writing code.

a sucker born per second, the rest use linux by bussdriver · 2013-04-19 08:25 · Score: 1

There is a sucker born every second, the others choose linux.

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Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news

Re:a sucker born per second, the rest use linux by david.emery · 2013-04-19 08:28 · Score: 1

Everyone's entitled to their opinions.
(And I'll match my Unix credentials, including substantial work on POSIX standards, with anyone...)

Important Point! by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:35 · Score: 0

What does anyone think Windows 9 will look like?
Microsoft's cash-flow requires a new O/S every 2 years. If they are forced to keep turning out crap, W9 will look even worse than 8, and they will be in deep do-do...

Kill AD.. make Samba awesome by vinn · 2013-04-19 08:38 · Score: 1

The Office-Exchange combo is definitely powerful as others have noted. However, I think we're at a point where it's getting more and more feasible to consider replacing it and there are reasonable alternatives.

What we really need is a complete AD killer. Samba can do it - the nuts and bolts are there. However, it's really rough around the edges. What we really need is a complete drop-in replacement for AD that also includes all of the integration with enterprise tools and has an interface like Microsoft's interface. We want to manage group policy objects, passwords, security groups, etc in the same manner we do now. We want Exchange to think the user accounts are all sitting on a Microsoft DC. Sure, this can all be done with Samba, but it needs to be as braindead simple as it is with Microsoft.

Yes, Linux has had various tries at directory tools for years, but they don't integrate well with Windows desktops. They're also clunky and it seems like the tools change from with no consistency.

Also, here's a plug for the Samba guys - great work guys. I don't think most people realize just how little manpower that project has. There's really less than a dozen core developers and they manage to pull off some amazing stuff.

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Re:Kill AD.. make Samba awesome by ReptileQc · 2013-04-19 09:12 · Score: 1

I really have a hard time with people saying that Office-Exchange is a killer app...
Now that everyone wants a copy of their email on every possible device they own, I find it a million times easier to have the mail hosted somewhere using Google Apps or outlook.com or any other mail service you prefer. For around 50$/user/year, small and medium-sized companies have absolutely no reason to buy and maintain expensive servers just for Exchange. Support technicians that specialize in Exchange are usually hard to find and/or very expensive, it also requires massive backup infrastructure on antiquated tapes and in case of a crash, restoring is simply painful. Simply not something that I would recommend unless they have full time IT employees (even then).
Then you need static IPs, have to check constantly to make sure you are not on someone spam black list and usually need an ultra-fast connection too for all the people that are on the road to receive and send mail at reasonable speed. Then that still won't protect you if you've got some sort of power failure or internet failure at the office and then nobody is able to receive/send emails until that's solved.
Maybe it still makes some sense for very large organization with full time IT employees but for everybody else, there's the cloud.

Its the overlapping standards stupid by Atrox+Canis · 2013-04-19 08:39 · Score: 2

We can't convert our enterprise from Windows because we still have some critical in-house and off the shelf apps that are windows only. But in the meantime, we still need to procure or develop new apps and services to meet changing market demands and requirements. But, we are not going to buy or develop those solutions for non-windows platforms because we don't have the backend support systems to service a complex multi-platform environment. So, we have to get windows based solutions for now. In a couple years, those new windows based solutions that started out as stop-gap measures have now become critical and we can't stop using them. Rinse and repeat.

Consumers fleeing the Microsoft boat, sure might happen.
Corporations fleeing the Microsoft boat, not nearly as likely.

Or, The less a man makes declarative statements, the less apt he is to appear foolish in retrospect.

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Charter Member of The Committee Group For The Elimination And Eradication Of Repetitive Redundancy

Comparison to IBM by wcrowe · 2013-04-19 08:39 · Score: 2

Microsoft is no more doomed now than IBM was 20 years ago, but like the IBM of the past, their dominance is fading. I think Microsoft might be around for a long time, but they won't be as ubiquitous as they once were.

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Proverbs 21:19

Start form scratch by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:42 · Score: 0

"what can be done to turn things around?"

Start from scratch! Every new Windows edition feels like was just built on top of Windows 95. Get rid of the antiquated windows registry and come up with a new method. Put A LOT of time and attention into making things intuitive THIS is what Apple has done very successfully. When it comes to the "control panel" SHORTER IS BETTER. Just "Network" is better than "Network and Sharing Center", what the hell is the "sharing center" part? And lastly DESIGN, DESIGN, DESIGN, has to look sleek (as well as be intuitive), large goofy color boxes are NOT sleek, clean, or initiative.

Hey Microsoft: Feed the Geeks by MTEK · 2013-04-19 08:43 · Score: 1

First, get rid of Ballmer. Once you've done that, build an OS completely from scratch -- ditch all backward compatibility -- and have it explicitly optimized for the latest and greatest x64 instruction set found in Intel's upcoming Haswell. Make it lean and mean, and set your architects and engineers loose on implementing all those years of hard-learned best practices.

Whatever you do, don't abandon your power-users. The technology must start with them. Give them the productive environment they deserve. And don't ever again... EVER... try to force a mobile UI on those of us who work for a living with multiple high-res monitors.

Real geeks need to drive technology. As for MBA-types who are obsessed with ad revenue and who are experts on how to squeeze a nickel out of the ass of people who FB all day -- just don't promote them too far, please. Compensate them for their performance, but it's the underlying tech -- where all the smarts and ballsy hard work goes -- that will make or break you in the long-run.

Invest in the tech or die!

Redmond Linux by gatkinso · 2013-04-19 08:46 · Score: 1

If Windows decreases market share to around 50% expect to see Redmond Linux - which so happens to provide a nice upgrade path and compatibility from Windows.

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I am very small, utmostly microscopic.

Not this again by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:48 · Score: 0

I'm no Windows fan but let's face the facts. Win95 SUCKED...WinME SUCKED...WinVista SUCKED...and yet Windows is still king.
Windows 7 is rock solid and will still be around for years to come. By the time Win 7 is dead, MS will have something better and Win 8 will just be a memory...but Windows will still be dominant.

The average home user is way more forgiving than the tech crowd.

Server 2012 - anyone else frustrated by that too? by vinn · 2013-04-19 08:52 · Score: 4, Informative

So, speaking of frustrating Microsoft OS's, anyone else tried Server 2012?

It seems to be quite a bit faster than 2008 and set up to run as a VM well. HOWEVER... it has taken a giant step backward in usability. No Start menu? Ok, I can adjust to that. However, getting to all the tools to administer a system is frustrating at best. What the f*ck were they thinking? Right now our average 2012 desktop consists of 20 - 30 shortcuts to administrative tools so we can get into things as basic as a control panel or an Event Viewer.

I understand Microsoft wanting to move everyone to using Powershell, I get how powerful the commandline is - I've been using Unix/Linux for 20 years. However, using bash and other commandline tools makes sense. It seems sane and has always been intuitive to pick up. A quick man page look up usually fills in any details that are out of the ordinary. Powershell and Microsoft's objects? Wow.. no idea who designed it but intuitive is not a word I would use to describe it. I suppose the command names themselves are ok, a lot of times you can guess them with a "Set" or "Get" prefix, but the way you pass the object references and the various command parameters are a complete pain the ass. Powershell is a nice feature, but completely ripping out nice graphical tools to do complex and infrequent tasks makes no sense.

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IF Windows wants back in .. in strength on PCs by houbou · 2013-04-19 08:54 · Score: 2, Interesting

For home users, make a free windows version which isn't watered down. But, charge for support however.
With Ubuntu and other OS out there which are FREE, the only way for Microsoft to stay relevant on the PC front is to stop gouging people for money, however, no money, no support, no liabilities, nada, zilch. Use at your own risk.
Also, considering the typical keyboard, mouse, monitor desktop PC configuration, the last thing Windows needs is a new revamp which would make it behave like a tablet or a phone.
The START button IS windows, and that should be back in force.
At the very least, do like Windows 7 and other previous versions and offer the 98 style GUI when you remove all the glitz and bells and whistles.
For now, until desktops and mobile devices are equal in processing powers, they are better off with different types of OS, than trying to do a 'one fits all' OS, which clearly isn't being look well upon.
Here's the awful truth.

Win 95.. we got in.
Win ME... sucked and well and was definitively forgettable
Win 98 second edition, good stuff
Win 2000, until SP4, kinda sucked and wasn't really worth moving too
Win XP SP2, (YES, was good)
Vista (Garbage)
Windows 7, worth the upgrade
Windows 8.. Yawn, not worth it

Windows 7 will become the new XP. Nobody will want to migrate from it and I can't blame them, because I'm in the same boat!
Those who will get new PCs and Laptops, more than likely, will force their suppliers to put on Windows 7. Reason? "My work uses Win 7 and our apps aren't compatible to Win 8, or something like that.
Microsoft's expectation of people wanting to upgrade their OS every 2 or 3 yrs, is simply ludicrous. Consider the amount of time it takes them to 'get it right', meaning the amount of service packs and updates one goes through, eventually, when you have a stable OS, you stick to it.
Let's not forget the old engineer's motto: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Re:IF Windows wants back in .. in strength on PCs by vandamme · 2013-04-20 07:32 · Score: 1

Windows makes money for The Geek Squad, your local Staples store, crapware vendors, Symantec (shudder), and Microsoft. That money comes from the Suckers. As long as your money goes into their pockets, they will continue to "Recommend Windows".
Re:IF Windows wants back in .. in strength on PCs by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-20 15:07 · Score: 0

For home users, make a free windows version which isn't watered down. But, charge for support however.
With Ubuntu and other OS out there which are FREE, the only way for Microsoft to stay relevant on the PC front is to stop gouging people for money, however, no money, no support, no liabilities, nada, zilch. Use at your own risk.
Delusional. Ubuntu and the other distros are also FREE and can't get any traction in the desktop market. How crappy does the OS need to be that you can't get people to adopt it when it's FREE? Why would M$ even need worry about software that completely unusable to the normal people?
Re:IF Windows wants back in .. in strength on PCs by houbou · 2013-04-21 07:35 · Score: 1

Ubuntu has been making great strides towards being user-friendly.

This is normal for Microsoft by bi$hop · 2013-04-19 08:55 · Score: 1

They have always alternated between good and bad releases of Windows. Consider their track record:

Windows 3.1 (good) => Windows 95 (bad)

Windows 98 (good) => Windows ME (bad)

Windows XP (good) => Windows Vista (bad)

Windows 7 (good) => Windows 8 (bad)

Not the end but a new beginning by ReptileQc · 2013-04-19 08:56 · Score: 1

Just as other tech companies were able to switch their main focus from hardware to software for example, Microsoft will stay well alive and switch from an operating system company to just a regular software company and/or service company.

As their consumer market becomes fragmented, it will not make sense anymore to restrict Office, SQL and other products to one and only platform (windows). SO they will make money with the office360 and hosting emails/cloud servers with their outlook.com platform.
Maybe continuing working on embedded devices like the XBOX and specialty hardware. As more and more devices use some kind of Linux flavor, Windows-based OS will become the odd ball so game development will become more standardized around OpenGL and maybe Wayland and other derivatives.

Even if they get a decent market share in phone and tablet devices, they will probably never reach a dominant position so they might as well release their money-making products and gain some market share across other platforms instead of closing the market to Windows-only devices and waiting for the next competitor to release a one-for-all-platform solutions and take over.

I think people complaining about details such as the Start Button on Windows 8 and the Metro interface are missing the big picture here. The tech world is changing because of more open platforms everywhere and not having a monopoly-ish position in any market changes their game completely.

Just my thought.

Windows 8 just needs a Start menu for the desktop! by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 08:59 · Score: 0

There are two big problems with Windows 8 as far as I see it, and the two are related.

One, there's no start menu in desktop mode. This is a huge problem because the Enterprise users will most often be using Windows 8 in desktop mode. So you either have to create shortcuts on the desktop, setup a custom toolbar, or jump over to the Metro UI to launch your application, which will take you right back to the desktop mode.

Two, most applications still will only work in desktop mode. Even the brand-new Office 2013 jumps back to Metro as soon as you start any of the apps. IE is somewhere in between - it'll work in Metro UI mode, but the majority of the settings are only available in the desktop mode. Only a handful of settings are available via charms, and the default home page isn't among them. Even web applications that use JAVA won't work on IE in Metro UI. And if IE isn't the default browser, it won't operate in Metro UI mode at all.

So until developers (including Microsoft) embrace the Metro UI, the desktop mode needs to be fully usable independently from Metro.

Re:What trend? by All_One_Mind · 2013-04-19 09:00 · Score: 4, Interesting

Wrong. Windows 8 has much faster boot up performance, has revamped file operations, has improved text acceleration, geometry rendering, and image performance. These are all performance improvements. Source: http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-57478350-75/microsoft-explains-how-windows-8-smokes-windows-7/

All current technology is doomed by the+eric+conspiracy · 2013-04-19 09:02 · Score: 1

Sooner or later everything will be replaced. I used to have 4 CRTs in my house. Cassette drives for data storage. A laser disk player. Two Sony Beta videotape decks.

In my sock drawer I have a collection of HP calculators spanning 3 decades. I have an 8" floppy with CP/M on it in a closet somewhere.

But is Windows dead? Far from it. It's still the defacto PC OS. Once Microsoft fixes their incredibly stupid error with the UI they will start selling again.

Likewise the desktop PC isn't dead. Many people like me need the hardware capacity of this things. Tablets and smartphones may be fine for some people. I'm not one of them.

It ain't over yet... by whizbang77045 · 2013-04-19 09:13 · Score: 1

It ain't over 'til the fat lady sings. Trouble is, she's been really off-key lately.

You already answered your own question! by matthelm007 · 2013-04-19 09:14 · Score: 1

You already answered the question. Like most larger companies, they need to get rid of the deadwood (deadheads) at the top, as the workers aren't the problem with most companies!!!

Well... by Kargan · 2013-04-19 09:18 · Score: 1

...duh.

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Palaces, barricades, threats, meet promises

PC slowdown started before Windows 8 by Boycott+BMG · 2013-04-19 09:20 · Score: 1

The current slowdown in PC sales started well before Windows 8 was released to the public and oems. As someone who holds a little bit of money in AMD stocks, I followed their press releases and they were claiming some slowdown in spring of 2012. If you look at Intel's financials, they were also experiencing an inventory buildup of the latest and greatest ivy bridge CPUs and had to idle more 22nm fabs than usual just to keep their margins and income up. http://www.anandtech.com/show/6378/intel-q312-earnings-3-billion-profit-on-weakening-market-intel-to-idle-some-fab-capacity

The fact is that smartphones and tablets have replaced PC notebooks for some tasks like email, calendar/scheduling, and instant messaging. If a certain percentage of the population used a PC primarily for those things then they might delay upgrading their PC and instead get a smartphone.

The difference this time is by BLToday · 2013-04-19 09:27 · Score: 1

near frictionless replacement for Windows 8. Or more precisely it's easier to learn Mac OS X or Chrome coming from Windows 7. I have an office full of people and those that have Windows 8 machines generally don't like it. Some have started to switch to Mac. Why Mac instead? Because it's hard to get a new machine with Windows 7 on it. People understand the basic paradigm of the Mac OS (buttons, drop down menu, multiple overlapping windows). There isn't a software that's needed here that doesn't have a Mac equivalent (ie. Office, Adobe CS, Quickbooks). If my users really wanted to take Mac OS X to the next step, I show them Lauchpad and Mission Control and more advance gestures. Otherwise, most people are happy doing what they know to work.

Certainly Microsoft can turn this around by roc97007 · 2013-04-19 09:30 · Score: 1

It's very clear what they need to do with Win8 to make it successful on the desktop -- bringing back the Aero interface, and putting the administration parts back in their accustomed places, would be enough to get over this current hoohaw. As stated, Microsoft still has a lot of brilliant designers. They could fix Win8 with their eyes closed.

The problem is not one of engineering. The problem is one of management. Whether management will *let* the engineers fix it is the great big question. It's a huge ego blow, to say in effect "we really goofed on this one" and then release Win8, the Apology Edition. I don't see the suits, and Ballmer in particular, agreeing to do that. I get the impression that they'd rather go out swinging than change direction at this point.

I just read an article on techniques to avoid a fight, and a couple things that might apply here are (a) your opponent thinks they're the good guy. In all likelihood, the suits really do think this is the wave of the future and they just have to ride out the initial caterwauling. (b) to avoid an all-out tussle, you need to let your opponent save face. This seems to be particularly vital in this case, because it's face, not technical issues, that's fundamentally at issue here.

But that said, I don't have an answer. It's not apparent to me how to spin this so that Win8 gets fixed and the suits feel good about it.

So yeah, they're doomed. (Meaning, I don't know how this can be fixed.)

--
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.

Seriously, Fire Steve and anyone who supports him by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 09:33 · Score: 0

So, what needs to be done.

1. Focus on business needs - Not stupid trendy interfaces. The rest of the market will follow business.
2. Reduce programming languages. C/C++/C# and WebAPI. Dump everything else.
3. Make APIs standards compliant (get rid of DirectX, move to OpenGL). Forget the media business.
4. Dump powershell...get back to a GUI and APIs.
5. Dump Metro - businesses want consistency and reduction of costs.
6. Set release cycle at 10 years. (it worked for XP - business was happy). Allows focus to be app delivery.
7. Provide plugins or modified mobile OS's that can be managed by Active Directory. If you can't beat them, control them. Not everything needs to be MS end-to-end.
8. Get the licensing sorted out...no need to screw people for every cent.
9. Open dreamspark more and provide special builds for training. (bootable virtual machines with pre-built networks, etc)
10. Offer free Visual Studio license to devs who produce a certain amount of open-source apps per year.
11. Fix MSDN. API references are good, but what is required is an entire vocational reference...aka tutorials and copy-and-paste code...MIT license.
12. Policy of not making things awkward, or sabotaging things because they interfere with your plans.

Finally, FIRE STEVE...anyone who would green light Metro does not understand the business.

Not even close to over by millertym · 2013-04-19 09:34 · Score: 1

They still have one of the great enterprise environment "security boundary and control" products in Active Directory and all of it's revolving rolls. Windows 2008 R2 and 2012 AD is really amazingly nice to work with generally. Windows 7 is solid. 2008 wasn't the best choice in versioning, but no where near the flunk out of Vista and it's "too much for existing hardware" issues. In my opinion there is one simple thing Microsoft can do to ensure they stay deeply engrained in the world of IT and personal technological devices:

Focus on separate UI design and function for different user related tasks.

Server UI design should be focused around quick took access, remote administration, and getting stuff done without any flashy graphics, security (server core is a solid step in this direction. Full installation of 2012 is not.)

Work place UI design should be focused on a static environment that isn't moving around - cube farm friendliness. People staying in the same place, in the same posture, for hours. Home "desktop" design would fall under this UI category. Mouse/keyboard tools are going to be a big deal here.

Mobile UI design should be focused on moving personal pieces of technology. Quickly flipping to mobile related info. Friends, family, maps, shopping. Windows 8 fits best here, but still too much trying to pander to the other 2 groups to be a perfect fit.

These 3 realms of User Interface design must be separate from each other beyond a few tools to help them all interact. But there is no good reason to make a server and cube farm work station try to fit into a mobile UI platform. It's folly.

arguably BYOD good for security by Chirs · 2013-04-19 09:42 · Score: 1

The very fact that people are "hooking their virus-ridden, spam-slugging crapfests of consumer grade hardware" to your network should be causing you to add much more robust *internal* security on your network. This is a *good* thing because it makes it harder for infections to spread once they get past the outer perimeter.

Re:arguably BYOD good for security by Opportunist · 2013-04-19 14:13 · Score: 1

While I agree with the additional internal security argument, that's something that should be in existence anyway. If it's not, you are already waiting for a problem to happen. Security is already hard enough to maintain in an office environment without introducing another attack vector, though.
Computer are cheap. At the very least much cheaper than work hours wasted because something doesn't work the way it should. If you consider the average life span of an office computer with just three years and make it cost a thousand a piece, that's a dollar a day. A single incident that keeps a worker offline and unproductive for an hour would kill months of savings.

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We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Re:arguably BYOD good for security by dbIII · 2013-04-19 17:44 · Score: 1

Doesn't help when the virus ridden piles of crap ignore all your internal hardening and find a way to broadcast shit out through your firewall on ports where legit stuff is supposed to get out. It's annoying when the next step is to look in packets to see if it's a torrent client or malware, with the alternative of pissing off the users by banning entire classes of software.

I know this isn't about IBM, but... by Lashat · 2013-04-19 09:44 · Score: 2

IBM is far from not being player in the computing industry. Maybe not the OS segment, but they are doing just fine and they can always fall back on their typewriter patents.

IBM's closing value of $214 billion on September 29, 2011 surpassed Microsoft which was valued at $213.2 billion. It was the first time since 1996 that IBM exceeded its software rival based on closing price. On August 16, 2012, IBM announced it entered an agreement to buy Texas Memory Systems. [34] Later that month, IBM announced it has agreed to buy Kenexa. The acquisition is expected to close in the fourth quarter.[35] The deal is worth $1.3 billion dollars and was paid in cash by IBM.[36]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM#1980.E2.80.93present

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For every benefit you receive a tax is levied. - Ralph Waldo Emerson

Re:I know this isn't about IBM, but... by terjeber · 2013-04-19 18:59 · Score: 1

Maybe not the OS segment
IBM is a huge player in the OS segment, both their own OSs and Linux. They don't play in the typical home/small business market, but in the big enterprise, and in "hefty iron" market they are close to the only player.
Re:I know this isn't about IBM, but... by Dcnjoe60 · 2013-04-20 02:47 · Score: 1

IBM is far from not being player in the computing industry. Maybe not the OS segment, but they are doing just fine and they can always fall back on their typewriter patents.
IBM's closing value of $214 billion on September 29, 2011 surpassed Microsoft which was valued at $213.2 billion. It was the first time since 1996 that IBM exceeded its software rival based on closing price. On August 16, 2012, IBM announced it entered an agreement to buy Texas Memory Systems. [34] Later that month, IBM announced it has agreed to buy Kenexa. The acquisition is expected to close in the fourth quarter.[35] The deal is worth $1.3 billion dollars and was paid in cash by IBM.[36]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM#1980.E2.80.93present
That was my point exactly. IBM still is a player, however, in the 1960s, they were THE player. Remember, nobody ever got fired for buying IBM was a popular slogan. Then the market shifted and they were no longer top dog. Instead of holding on to the past, they looked at where they wanted to be in the future and refocused their energies on those parts of the industry. IBM is very much a player in today's IT landscape. Microsoft (and Apple) are at the point where IBM was and both need to figure out where they want to be. The IT industry of the 80s/90s/early00s is gone and won't be back. Holding on to corporate philosophies that sustain you back then will drive you into the ground today. IBM successfully made that transition. It is yet to be seen if others will (although Apple did once in the past, so maybe they will again).

MS Could Embrace and Extend Linux by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 09:56 · Score: 0

Microsoft could choose to do something entirely unexpected...it could create it's own distribution of Linux with a virtual machine build in which uses proprietary Windows code to provide backwards compatibility to Windows-based software (and a reason for other Linux users to choose Microsoft's distribution). Other proprietary addons could be simplified and effective links to MS server products, such as Exchange, SQL Server, etc.

Then, over time, they could write new versions of their Windows software that run on (and ONLY on) their distribution of Linux. As long as their programs needed to call a library that Microsoft owns and licenses, Microsoft could continue to own the users. Eventually, it wouldn't matter which distro of Linux you used, so long as you licensed Microsoft's proprietary library you could run Microsoft-branded applications.

With two words by Dreben · 2013-04-19 09:57 · Score: 1

Microsoft Linux

Lower price by hebertrich · 2013-04-19 10:01 · Score: 1

Want to survive ? First lower the price to $49.99 .
Anything higher is seen as a rip off and people start to consider other OS'es or getting a pirated copy.
Want to save wimdows ? Chop the price down to what it's worth.

Re:What trend? by Dishevel · 2013-04-19 10:04 · Score: 1

To be fair the OS is not "Unusable" just really bad.

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Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?

I'll be running windows 'til I'm old and gray... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 10:12 · Score: 0

Long live XP!

(No originality points for 'Fire Steve Balmer'" by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 10:15 · Score: 0

Set Steve Ballmer on Fire? Maybe Micro$hit could bring back the much loved Windows ME.

Created a decent Mobile OS, Be More Stuborn by puppetman · 2013-04-19 10:16 · Score: 1

Apple has iOS that powers tablets, phones, and MP3 players. Google has Android, which powers phones, tablets, and other consumer devices.

If Microsoft has a decent mobile OS, it's buried under so much marketing that I don't know what it is. I guess there is "Surface", but it seems pretty limited. I've never used it, much less seen it outside a commercial.

They need to come out with an OS, and brand it differently that "Windows". Windows makes me think big and clunky and slow.

Second, they need to stick with their products, and improve them until they get traction. Their approach seems to be make a few dozen consumer products, and drop the ones that don't immediately succeed - quantity versus quality. Why not pick the niche that helps your business the most, and stick with it. Phones, MP3 players, tablets, or some other technology - do it, and follow "kaizen" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaizen). Eventually your competitors make a misstep, and the ecosystem is yours for the taking. It takes a willingness to spend money, be stubborn, continuously improve, and wait till the big fish makes a mistake. Apple took out Blackberry, and Android/Samsung/HTC have grabbed a nice chunk of market share from Apple.

Microsoft is coasting on previous successes - Windows, Office, and more recently the XBox, and abandoning not-successes too quickly.

Break up the company by eugene6 · 2013-04-19 10:17 · Score: 1

Let the separate parts of the company innovate more freely from each other.

Re:There is only one possible course of action. by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 10:28 · Score: 0

You mind if I borrow that?

Doomed: why? Hint: Glass is not Windows by redsquid5 · 2013-04-19 10:42 · Score: 1

The PC is dead, MS is building buggy whips for the horse and carriage. The share of PCs that Win 8 owns is irrelevant; the share of phones and tablets is the key, and Win 8 has virtually no takers. The future is Google Glass; with some improvement in the image projection, you will have a huge virtual screen, with voice recognition and camera based gesture recognition for the text entry and touchpad. For those are old school, a nice clicky bluetooth keyboard will do fine. Ah, and this is also the death knell for the HDTV; the resizable image will appear as if you had a 100" HDTV if you want. Don't think 2014; think 2016 or so on this one. Windows 10 is going to have piddly sales.

A Better Windows? Boot time 0 seconds by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 10:48 · Score: 1

Why does a computer have to set itself up every time you turn it on?
Unless you want to reconfig your hardware or ad a app, what's the point of setting up the OS?
Security or WGA check. (remember when Win98SE could be 'tricked')
Everybody owned it. Or stole it according to Redmond. But still it was tops.

Ok So back to the question
Why does a computer have to draw paths to all the parts of memory etc each push of the power button?
Can't it remember...Maybe I AM a little stupid, but can there be a new OS that works as soon as you turn it on?
Use the RAM memory to store the OS not just configuration?

Some people do not want to touch their screen, Metro.
Just make a stable safe WinXP dummies.

Re:What trend? by hjf · 2013-04-19 10:48 · Score: 1

windows 8 took away windows transparency and shit. I liked it, but they decided flat is the new cool. so that makes it LESS bloated in a way.

Huh? by overshoot · 2013-04-19 10:50 · Score: 1

What is this "Windows" of which you speak?

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Lacking <sarcasm> tags, /. substitutes moderation as "Troll."

Doomed? No by demoncleaner925 · 2013-04-19 10:53 · Score: 0

Theres a lot of microsoft hate going around the internet...but how many people on slashdot actually used wondows 8 on a tablet? I was in a mall (shopping centre where im from) today where they had a windows stand, and I used a surface for the first time, and I thought this is pretty cool as a tablet version of windows 7, with an alternate user interface that works really well for simple consumption. I really dont care for the comments about how metro is this and how metro is that, how many years did it take all the critics to become familiar with a computer? and do you really think they designed metro for content creation? for a lot of enthusiasts it may not be good but it will get better. Like it or not microsoft still dominates desktop computers (be it personal or corporate usage) so they will still be around, despite the fucked up versions of excel they release (some new array functions are nice though) beg borrow or steal, microsoft will get it right eventually, who gives a shit if they get it wrong after? no one is forcing you to upgrade to the newest version. Ill keep my copy of windows 7 on my desktop but Ill definitely be getting a surface (pro) as a tablet PC once I have the money to spare. shill it up your ass

Cheaper Windows by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 10:56 · Score: 0

I'm not sure if it is financially feasible for the company. But I think a lot of people would upgrade more if it was priced cheaper and if upgrades would not affect enterprise/business applications.

I think the Biz PC drove Home PC sales by MasterOfGoingFaster · 2013-04-19 11:03 · Score: 5, Insightful

I think you are on the right track, but I see it flipped. Most people did not have PCs at home. This was a device they had at work. They were trained to use it because it was a function of their job.

Then one day this Internet "thing" arrived and they wanted a device to surf the web. The only device they knew was the PC - by now it was Windows-based. So Wintel PCs spiked in sales. But if we are honest, they really weren't ready for your average person - far too complex. But it was almost the only tool available, so that's what they got.

But now tablets and smart phones let them surf and get email - without a lot of the problems. So consumers are slowly changing to that device. I say "slowly" because the sales curve continues to accelerate.

I believe the end result will be the PC will return to being a mostly-business device. We'll look back on the last 15 years as an odd spike between the Internet land rush and the arrival of the Internet Terminal.

Microsoft's mistake? Users have a tough time with change, and MS upset them greatly by creating a confusing interface. Users are much more willing to learn new controls for something totally different (airplane, boat, tablet) but get mad as hell if you change something they are already comfortable with (car, Windows).

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Place nail here >+

Re:I think the Biz PC drove Home PC sales by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 13:00 · Score: 0

I miss my IBM-PC compatable.
Re:I think the Biz PC drove Home PC sales by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 13:56 · Score: 0

me to.
Re:I think the Biz PC drove Home PC sales by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-20 01:52 · Score: 0

I'm not sure I would classify the interface as confusing. I would call it "initially obtuse". Once people are shown the basics, they work with it just fine.
Re:I think the Biz PC drove Home PC sales by datavirtue · 2013-04-22 01:43 · Score: 1

Indeed, I can't count how many times I heard "I want a computer like the one I have at work" during the 90's.

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I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
Re:I think the Biz PC drove Home PC sales by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-22 05:38 · Score: 0

I agree (I remember it that way). PC Skills were in demand at the office - especially business applications - Lotus 123 and WordPerfect. Sure, we bought PCs for games, too, but the PC was much more relevant on the job for most people, unless you were in graphics, art, advertising or music. Plus, PC-compatible hardware was commoditized, if not cheap.
ALSO, the maintaining, repairing and upgrading DOS machines was a cottage industry. I was one of 'em who just liked to learn and tinker with the config.sys and autoexec.bat. We were the volunteer tech support army that could fix your computer, replace the drives, add RAM etc.
This relatively open platform created huge opportunities for software developers - which MS seems to have killed completely.
Microsoft is a victim of it's own success. It tried to monopolize the entire software business. So people (and industries like Big Finance) have invested in alternatives (Java). I don't think the company is doomed, but I do think that strategy is doomed. Their culture seems to be anachronistic. They have to learn how to be competitive again.

MS not going away by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 11:04 · Score: 0

For those with short memories:

Windows 3 sucked. Windows (3.11) for Workgroups fixed it.

Windows 95 was ehh so so, Windows 98 better.

Windows Millennium sucked hard, Windows XP did better.

Windows Vista ate balls, Windows 7 did great.

Windows 8 has issues, Windows 8.1 will do better.

It's a trend with Microsoft, sell a Windows version that should be labeled beta, get the user feedback, make a strong operating system out of the ashes of the last.

For those with even shorter memories.
Microsoft had a Windows phone before Apple, Google or most of today's known brands. Their mobile strategy may be a weakness, but if you look at the timeline, mobile hasn't been around that long and the true story isn't the hand held device but the services those devices connect to - on that category Microsoft made bets and those are looking to pay off with their XBox brand stores, media, original programming, et.

Microsoft isn't dying, isn't fading away into oblivion, they will make the products consumers demand, but because of their Org chart, it's like doing a 180 with an aircraft carrier. It takes time to work out their internal fiefdoms and hand the command over to product folks who really do have the consumers in mind and not just a goal or deadline.

One obstacle for their success are the developers. They used to cater to them hand over fist, but with current developer roadblocks and pricing they are helping drive developers to mobile where programming is quick, the product is dirty but people are willing to pay a few bucks for something that uses up their spare time. For Microsoft to really drive the desktop space, they need their next Halo breakthrough that will drive demand for higher performance machines. Again for those with short memories most of the PC performance gains 1990- 2005 came from game developers requirements for high performance hardware. Most game companies today don't even understand Ambient Occlusion let alone require it for use. When they do, we'll see the desktop space come alive again. -- I do believe we will see game developers push the limits again -- there are few paths to take to make a game stand out from the competition, especially in the mobile space, the desktop and making games that others aren't will bring them back, eventually, it's either that or the next desktop evolution of quantum which is still a ways off...

LDAP. by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 11:07 · Score: 0

Why is LDAP "a joke"? What are you doing in AD that is

a) not easily replaced by LDAP
b) something a small office would do

?

LDAP will do what you need it to and very easily. You could get some click-and-type front end to add more than contact details from the LDAP-aware contacts application will let you do without reading the help files, but mostly anything you need to add is done.

And why is SAMBA not an answer?

In most cases, when answered, the reason for AD has been to do things that Windows won't let you do and AD has some frig to sort-of do it.

HDMI by tepples · 2013-04-19 11:11 · Score: 1

Any tablet with 1080p HDMI out is a 24" tablet.

Software Cost will kill Microsoft by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 11:23 · Score: 0

I bought two copies of Windows 8, havent installed them yet...why? No real need. Why did I buy them? I got them legally for $39.95 I still run Office 2007 because new versions do not justify the $400 cost. Yeah, I have friends that can get me legit software at the company store for peanuts, but that doesn't apply to everyone. Google Apps is pretty sufficient for most needs, Works well on my tablet, Chromebook, even my phone in a pinch. LibreOffice is free, Ubuntu is pretty easy to use, my iPod and iPad get free OS updates.
We did a study at work, and it costs us about $2000 per mailbox for Exchange 2010 (Enterprise CAL's, AntiSPAM, Disclaimers, Antivirus, other Anti-malware, Monitoring, etc) SQL is no cheaper, Not sure of the pricing on Sharepoint. How long till everyone figures out that GMail at $50 a user per year is a better bargain? I can buy a Mac and get OS updates for $20, yet MS still wants crazy amounts for the OS, buggy as it may be?
Microsoft is eating itself, it needs to go back to its roots, make a new version of Windows for the Enthusiast, and make it clean and fast. Also, it needs to make training for younger users more affordable.

Truly stupid by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 11:38 · Score: 0

I can see the rationale behind one interface to rile them all. But "metro" on the desktop is an idea from the very deep layers of stupidity. Why don't MS "default to classics windows" and make Metro accessible by some icon. And the "charsms" too. Being forced to use a keyboard? I-m open to new interfaces, I'm open to new routes as well, but not when they make the trip last 3-4 times longer. Win8 is extremely ineffective as per today. It also garbages the accumulated UI-experience of close to the the entire humanity.

I want to see the pictures of

1. The individual who came up with the idea
2. The individual who ''evangelized' the idea
3. The individual who 'made the decision

Truly stupid people have always fascinated me.

Windows might not be doomed, but... by used2win32 · 2013-04-19 11:49 · Score: 1

Windows might not be doomed, but I stopped using it years ago.

Every chance I get, I move somebody to a new platform. My daughter has a Mac, my father-in-law runs Ubuntu, my Mom has a Mac, our best friend is mobile device only with a WiFi printer, another friend is on Linux Mint, etc... (many more)

We are all happier now. I can say that I know zero people running Windows 8.

--
Procrastination; I'll think of a sig tomorrow.

i'll be back.... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 11:50 · Score: 0

The next generation Xbox will likely dominate with the dismal Wii u and increasingly flat Sony in the picture and with that Microsoft will likely deliver and windows 9 refresh the year after along with the kinect 2. They could even bundle them. The new consoles are more along the lines of internet PCs/multimedia devices. Plus Microsoft could always join forces with Facebook. Don't forget they still own Skype too.

Are you high? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 12:01 · Score: 0

And, if not, what can be done to turn things around?

If I cared to think about ways to MS, I certainly wouldn't give them any advice. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Availability by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 12:04 · Score: 0

In my home state, it is almost impossible to look at the new Windows 8 hardware with touch screen. It flies off the shop shelf too quickly. You can buy an old laptop with Windows 8 loaded. People wanting the latest Windows 8 computers, fully configured, have to order online and wait for delivery. Written on a Windows 8 tablet that I normally dock to two large screens and three gigabytes of hard drives.

Re:What trend? by vux984 · 2013-04-19 12:07 · Score: 1

These are pretty much the same kind of PR bullshit claims that were made with most windows releases.

Well, except for the fact that the claims were true.

http://usabilitygeek.com/windows-8-vs-windows-7-speed-and-performance-testing/

Essentially you're that idiot that looks at the paper to see plus six minus eight, [...wtf...]

Um... that's got to be about the worst analogy I've ever tried to read.

Only to find out that every single game that came out for both asked for one extra gigabyte of RAM for 7 in comparison to XP. Because after all the improvements, 7 was still so bloated that it ended up in a net negative.

Most of the extra ram required for 7 is actually due to the vast majority of 7 installs being 64-bit which is chunkier in large part because of the side-by-side support for 32-bit. And to count this as a net-negative for 7 is silly, especially given the current price for RAM.

Same goes for eight.

Same does not go for eight. This is flat out nonsense. No one is asking higher specs on an 8 system then for a 7 system when writing up requirements docs, or even a Vista system. All 3 get the same specs profile in every case I've seen.

If anything Windows has gotten lighter and faster for 3 successive iterations now.

And I don't begrudge the bump in specs required to go from XP to Vista, given how much better Windows has gotten.

What would make windows more doomed or dead by xQuarkDS9x · 2013-04-19 12:09 · Score: 1

What I believe would make windows more "doomed" or "dead" at least in the PC gaming market would be much better video support for OpenGL in linux comparible to DirectX in windows in such popular distro's as Ubuntu and Linux Mint. Valve is already trying to do this with the steam client and if enough games run well on it that used to be primarily windows only games such as Half-Life 1 and CS 1.6 and even Half Life 2 and all the Source engine games under OpenGL it may be enough to convice a good portion of the pc gamer market at least to stop using windows and directX and migrate over to linux and openGL.

--
You must master your joystick like a fisherman masters bait! - Gimpy

Make Windows small again. by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 12:28 · Score: 0

What should be done is someone needs to shrinks the code down. Why can't windows go back to a 500mb install? Max 1gb we the people want to lose the bloat and trim the fat!

WTF? WHY turn things around? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 12:33 · Score: 0

And, if not, what can be done to turn things around?

Why would anyone (who doesn't own MS stock) want to turn things around? Windows was a thorn in the side of the personal computer for a couple decades, consistently below average in quality and usability. People kept trying to get away from Windows, some made it and some got pulled back in to the cesspool. Society's goal should be to try to help rescue everyone left.

Think of how many children grew up, thinking Windows was normal. Holy fucking shit.

FFS don't fire Ballmer. I don't really understand what he's done "wrong" (for the company, apparently right for the industry) but more people do seem have escaped during his time. GOOD. Keep Steve until revenue is $0.

not worth it by MetalOne · 2013-04-19 12:42 · Score: 1

I just can't help but think it isn't right to perpetually sell an operating system, word processor, and email program. Eventually, these are sufficiently complete or good enough. Maybe they can be made slightly better, but who wants to keep paying year after year for so little added value. Additionally when it comes to the user interface of the operating system, I don't think they have done a very good job. Who wants to keep paying for a bad product? Its been 28 years now and you can still barely edit the system path variable, and there is no sudo. I keep hoping Linux will eventually overtake it. However, just the other day, I was running a Qt app with Cleanlooks style on GTK and the tooltips were unreadable due to the color background/foreground contrast. I spent about 1 hour trying to fix it and couldn't. It seems with Linux there is always something weird like this.

Is this a joke?! by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 12:48 · Score: 0

So here's the question, Slashdotters: Is Windows really doomed? And, if not, what can be done to turn things around?

Do you have any idea how bizarre that question sounds to people who have worked with computers? Here, let me try to explain it through analogy:

The news reporters are saying the Boston bomber is trapped and surrounded. What can be done to turn things around?

Smallpox has been essentially wiped out, but there are probably a few samples in labs here 'n' there. Is Smallpox doomed? And if not, what can we do, to get it back into the wild?

Someone is trying to rape a baby to death. What can we do to help the rapist have a satisfying experience?

The answer by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 12:52 · Score: 0

Is Windows really doomed? And, if not, what can be done to turn things around?

I am with you on that one: what can we do to make sure Windows is really, really doomed?

For once we can spread the world that Windows is not the only option out there. There are other systems that are as good or better than Windows to browse the web, do word processing, programming, gaming and pretty much everything Windows can do except get hopelessly infected by all sorts of malware. Whatever you do, do not "fire Steve Ballmer" -- he is doing a great job!

Flame Bait! by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 13:22 · Score: 0

This is a silly topic. Of course Microsoft is not doomed. ASP.Net is used by many well know websites and businesses, Exchange is ubiquitous in industry and Visual Studio is one of the best IDE's if not the best IDE on the Market

Wrong Question by LuYu · 2013-04-19 13:48 · Score: 1

The post read:

So here's the question, Slashdotters: Is Windows really doomed? And, if not, what can be done to turn things around?

But it should read:

So here's the question, Slashdotters: Is Windows really doomed? And, if not, what can be done to make sure ?

--
All data is speech. All speech is Free.

Doubt it. by Mantrid42 · 2013-04-19 13:53 · Score: 1

Have we all forgotten that, much like Star Trek movies, every other version of Windows sucks? 2000 was great, ME was terrible, XP was great, Vista was terrible, 7 is great, 8 is terrible. The next iteration will probably drop all that live tile bullshit and we'll be back on track.

Re:There is only one possible course of action. by Opportunist · 2013-04-19 13:57 · Score: 1

Not my work, it's an ancient joke from the good ol' Communist times. I'd like to send your request to the original author, but it's likely he already got rewarded by the party with a free vacation. Of 5 or maybe 10 years, probably.

Old communist jokes can easily be rewritten to be very topical for today, though. A few more examples (and yes, they were all originally Communist jokes)?

Why does $corporation put man in the middle of its efforts?
To rip him off from all sides.

How can you tell the Sahara becomes a capitalist country?
At first you won't be able to tell a difference, but sooner or later only the rich will have sand.

Arafat goes to heaven. He comes to St. Peter, armed to the teeth. St. Peter says "Ohhhh no, not a chance, this is heaven, put down your arms and only then you may enter!" So Arafat starts to put down his guns, but as he peeks through the door he sees an old, bearded guy standing there, two machine guns under his arms and bullet belts around his shoulders. So he goes back to St. Peter "Ahhh right, I have to disarm, but your boss may, eh?" "No", said St. Peter, "that's a special exception, that's Abe Lincoln, he's waiting for Congress. (Original was with Karl Marx and him waiting for the Politburo)

Things are quite the same through the reign of various Presidents:
Kennedy had hundred women, one of them had a STD but he didn't know which one.
Reagan had hundred advisers, one of them was a spy, but he didn't know which one.
Obama has hundred economists, one of them is competent, but he doesn't know which one.

Why does the TSA always work in groups of three?
One can read
One can write
One has to make sure the intellectuals don't step out of line.

An old man is dying in his home. There is a menacing banging on the door. ‘Who's there?’ the old man asks. ‘Death ‘comes the reply. ‘Thank God for that,’ he says, ‘I thought it was the NSA.’

Obama feels like trying to see how people really feel about him and goes undercover, in a disguise, in a stadium. When the anthem starts playing, everyone gets up from their seats and starts singing along, just Obama remains seated. After a while, the guy behind him bends over and whispers to him "Listen, buddy, I know, we all feel that way, but it's really better for you to stand up and sing along".

Why do ex-NSA agents make great taxi drivers? 'cause you just have to tell them your name and they already know where you live.

(sounds racist, but bear with me) A rumor spreads that a company may be hiring. Nobody knows who spread it, but in the early mornings thousands of unemployed people crowd the entrance. Eventually, at 7am, someone appears at the door and says "Listen, folks, we sure as hell don't have enough jobs for all of you. So all the black people and Mexicans can as well leave right now!" Grumbling, they do so. At 9am, the guy appears again and says "Listen, I just got informed that there won't be any jobs for any of you, sorry." So the rest disperses, just one man grumbles "Damn minorities always get preferred treatment".

News flash about the crisis: We're not doing as good as we did last year, but we're doing a heck of a lot better than we'll be doing next year!

Caesar, Alexander the Great and Napoleon watch the evening news.
Alexander: "Wow! With those tanks, I could have conquered the world!"
Caesar: "Wow! With those planes, I could have easily made Rome the center of the universe!"
Napoleon: "Wow! With Fox News I could've convinced everyone Waterloo was a huge victory!"

What's the real rate between Pound, Dollar and Euro?
A pound of dollars is worth an Euro.

What does the American optimist say?
Well, it can't really get any worse.

The bear is sitting in the wood quietly, as a horde of rabbits come dashing by. He picks up one of the hares and questions him for the reason of the hurry. "They're rounding up the camels and castrate them!" "So?", said the bear, "you're not a camel, why t

--
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.

Another issue with MS by ravenswood1000 · 2013-04-19 14:12 · Score: 1

They have lost any sense of creativity and leadership. They now follow Apple and Linux which will kill them.

Windows to release new version every 12 months by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 14:57 · Score: 0

What about all the hype about Windows BLUE and how microsoft was planning to start releasing a new version every 12 months to be more like other software vendors.

http://www.extremetech.com/computing/141676-windows-blue-microsofts-plan-to-release-new-windows-every-year

Bring out yer shills! by Torodung · 2013-04-19 15:33 · Score: 1

Bring out yer shills! Throw 'em on the cart!

I'm not dead yet.

Shut up Windows, you're dead.

365/SharePoint revenue keeps coming by abdupattoh · 2013-04-19 15:51 · Score: 1

Our small organization just moved to Office 365. Windows doesn't matter anymore. Keeping you on MS server products matters. In our case Outlook/Exchange and Sharepoint. Ongoing revenue stream for M$. Gives 'em time to fixup the latest windows beta...

Re:What trend? by MightyMartian · 2013-04-19 16:08 · Score: 1

Or, as people would say in the real world, are putting off A LOT of users.

--
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.

Ballmer will fight to the death by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 16:14 · Score: 0

Sadly it will be Microsoft's death. CEO's like him, they pin the blame on others and fire them and keep doing that until the company dies.

So far we've had, blame the previous guy. He grouped all the loses from the online businesses, piled them onto the ad company Gates bought, and wrote it down blaming Bill Gates. Yet the ad company was the only part of those businesses that could ever have made a profit, and it was only values at 2% of Google's ad business!

We had, fire the underlings. Surface is clearly a problem because it's half and half, Office on surface is a joke, it needs a keyboard and mousepad to be usable (or at least a stylus). It looks like Ballmer couldn't get (or more likely didn't try) to get the Office people to do a touch version. Surface head gets sacked, but its difficult to see how it could be any less botched as long as a lot of Microsoft won't make touch software and Ballmer can't make them.

Where's the strategy? It's monkey see monkey do! He just tried to copy whatever others are doing.

Takes credit for others. If anyone in the company does anything right, he's there taking credit for it. Yet these ideas make it to the surface *despite* him, not *because of* him.

Price rises. He so needs to increase the profit to keep his job, so he ramps the prices up in any area he doesn't have competition, and when competition arrives Microsoft is the insane overpriced stale software!

He's clueless!

Re:What trend? by dbIII · 2013-04-19 16:32 · Score: 4, Insightful

In an office environment it's poison though. I don't know about where you are but I've still got a pile of people that never got used to the "start" menu and if they don't have an icon for something they don't think it is on their computer (sucks with new staff - having to set up a pile of icons for the new user login). Win8 is such a massive change in UI from the XP/win2k mode that they are used to that I'm not going to bother trying to force it on them until they've got used to it at home.

Re:What trend? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 16:35 · Score: 0

Wrong. Windows 8 has much faster boot up performance, has revamped file operations, has improved text acceleration, geometry rendering, and image performance. These are all performance improvements. Source: http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-57478350-75/microsoft-explains-how-windows-8-smokes-windows-7/

And that outweighs the dreadful interface in the minds of users because ...?

Been a decade where I'm working by dbIII · 2013-04-19 17:14 · Score: 1

Funny thing is it was about 2002 or 2003 when my workplace rolled out linux to nearly every desktop. Most of them have an identical GUI to what they were using in 2003 even though the computers have been replaced a few times and the distro upgraded or outright replaced more than once a year (CentOS6 still has gnome2 - behaves just like gnome did in 2002). Even libreoffice looks a lot like star office or openoffice looked like back then.

Re:What trend? by kermidge · 2013-04-19 17:23 · Score: 1

I'm sufficiently impressed by the under-the-hood improvements in Windows 8, continuing on from 7, that IF I could avoid the Metro/Morden stuff, and if I could afford it, I'd seriously consider putting it on one of my current machines instead of Linux.

What can be done? by jandersen · 2013-04-19 17:33 · Score: 1

Microsoft may have many clever people, and it may be cheap to say "fire Ballmer", but at the end of day, the success of a company depends on the leadership being able to make the right decisions.The brilliant employees are important, of course, but if the leaders make the wrong the wrong decisions, all that means is that you go to hell brilliantly instead of incompetently.

I wish they were not doomed... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 17:48 · Score: 0

I wish Microsoft would grow half a brain, but they will not.

I wish they would have promised to support XP x64, but they have not. So, I'm switching to Linux.

I wish they had not killed of Windows CE, and had instead rewritten all Microsoft software for it. They did not. They killed CE just in time to allow Android to take off.

I wish Microsoft had not bragged about their ability to hack my PC and trash my files anytime they wanted to...like when they DRMed all my (2 years worth of teaching) videos in the early days of Vista. But they didn't.

I wish Microsoft had not committed FELONY anti-trust violations by writing a prohibition into the PowerPoint 95 EULA against using the WINE emulator to run PowerPoint 95 on Linux. This used their monopoly over presentation software in 1995-1997 to push for a monopoly over operating systems.

I wish Microsoft had updated their copy command to be similar to "Free File Sync" so it could actually copy 2.5TB of data reliably without errors, but they didn't. They could update all basic OS functions, but they wont.

I wish Microsoft had continued to support all their old software, at least for security updates, but they didn't.

I wish Microsoft had allowed me to continue using their newer OSes in VMs, but they didn't. They deliberately blocked such technology.

I wish that, as a computer teacher, I could bring in live DVDs for several Microsoft OSes and show them to my students, but they have made that technically difficult, and outright illegal. WHY??!?!! They even prevent my from running Windows from a USB drive 99% of the time. WHY!?!?!?!

I wish that Microsoft would open up all their old OSes for $5 per copy, as VM images so I could run old programs. Instead, I run DosBox to get at the original Civilizations.

I wish that Microsoft would include a program with new copies of Windows that would rip your old hard disk to a VM image on your new PC. They are too arrogant to realize that people want access to their old machines. Even if they did realize this is badly needed, they would charge ridiculous amounts of money and place insane limitations on it.

I wish that Microsoft would have included decent driver support with Vista, but instead, I had to decide between my beloved printer (HP Professional Series InkJet 13x19) or Vista. I'm still running XP.

I wish that Microsoft would have written one reasonable EULA in their lifetime, but they have not. They demand that I be held to a EULA before I can read it. They refuse to tell me (pre-sale) what the EULA says. They refuse to refund my money after I can read the EULA, instead calling my local Police Department on me!

I wish that Microsoft, and all their employees would just GO TO HELL!

Re:I wish they were not doomed... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 18:54 · Score: 0

I wish Microsoft did not require me to re-activate Windows at random...because I unplugged a USB drive!?! But they did - recently.
I wish Microsoft licensing support did not call me a criminal, and threaten to have me fired...but they did, repeatedly.
I wish Microsoft did not shut down my ebay auction for a copy of Front Page after I refused to agree to the license agreement, and was refused a refund. But they did. They claimed I was violating a contract (license agreement) that I had not agreed to. Note: This is a crime, it's called barrantry, It's a felony.
I wish Microsoft would make it easier to see what codecs are being used. Instead, they obfuscate it.
I wish Microsoft had been honest about XP never supporting SCSI, but Microsoft lied and said it did.
I wish I could know what copy of Windows 7 to buy, but instead Microsoft refuses to be upfront about what features each copy has. I recall teaching a class on Networking where we tried to use XP to do NAT. It took me 4+ hours to figure out that IT had ghosted the PCs with XP Home, not XP Pro, and that XP Home does not support NAT. Microsoft obfuscated that fact, which is dishonest of them.
I wish Microsoft's business model were not to "steal from widows and orphans" (to quote a former Microsoft VP.) But it is. They refuse to have their pricing make sense.
I wish I could use Microsoft's free Office training from their web site in my classes, but they change it constantly...for no reason they take down perfectly good old copies of the training so that what's there makes no sense...there's no context!
Microsoft not only hides the inner workings of their products, they go to court against other companies to keep them hidden. Remember when they sued M.R. over Nt Internals? (He eventually sold out to them.) Remember when they killed socket access in XP SP2?
When the US Government demanded the ability to wiretap any PC, Microsoft capitulated. When the govt demanded that from me, I handed out rifles and turned away their tactical team. (pussies!)
Why do pirated copies of Visual Studio work better than Legit copies?
I got a copy of Visual Studio 2005 (the last time I was stupid enough to try a legit copy) and tried to install it on XP. It kept saying it had a bad disc. I finally figured out that was coded language for "I don't work on XP; only Vista or better." WHY NOT TELL ME THAT UP FRONT!?!?!!? Maybe on the disc?
Microsoft sold a SMP version of Windows 2000 that was specifically licensed for "1 processor" even though this was the multiprocessor version of Windows! I almost got fired for "violating a license agreement." This was the in first year after Sun released JAVA.
I wish Microsoft had kept their Zune music service so I could use MY music forever, as they promised to do. As it turned out, Microsoft lied (again.)
Now, some copies of Microsoft Windows require always-on-DRM to boot!!!!! WTF?!!?!?

It's nothing like that at all by dbIII · 2013-04-19 17:54 · Score: 1

RMS doesn't have much to do with linux apart from pretending to own it by trying to change the name. I've earned a living on linux for more than a decade being doing something that would give him nightmares - running closed source commercial software on linux and displaying it on linux workstations that have closed source video drivers. If RMS had any sort of say with linux neither would be possible.

Re:What trend? by terjeber · 2013-04-19 18:11 · Score: 1

There is 0, zero, zilch performance improvement in Win 8

Really? Who told you that? The little green Linus sitting on your shoulder telling you how to surf for porn?

Geekbench results for a AMD-based four core (old) PC (AMD Phenom II X4 820) with Windows 7 and Windows 8 (Win8 was installed as an upgrade):
Windows 7: 5665
Windows 8: 7103

Geekbench doesn't tell the whole story, but such a significant improvement in what Geekbench measures is not random. So, speaking from ignorance, it seems you've made a fool out of your self.

Re:What trend? by terjeber · 2013-04-19 18:13 · Score: 1

Geekbench results for a AMD-based four core (old) PC (AMD Phenom II X4 820) with Windows 7 and Windows 8 (Win8 was installed as an upgrade):
Windows 7: 5665
Windows 8: 7103

Seems like your religion is eating away at your brain.

Re:What trend? by terjeber · 2013-04-19 18:21 · Score: 1

Win8 is such a massive change in UI from the XP/win2k

If you add a start button to Win8 (free) could you enumerate all the other "massive change(s)" in Windows 8? The ones that makes it impossible to use?

Re:What trend? by terjeber · 2013-04-19 18:22 · Score: 1

IF I could avoid the Metro/Morden stuff

That's easy. You never have to see it.

Re:What trend? by terjeber · 2013-04-19 18:26 · Score: 1

just really bad

I have asked the following question to a lot of people. I have never received an answer: "If you add a free start button to Win8, could you enumerate the differences between Win7 and Win8 desktop that makes Win 8 so bad? Please?". People, as the sheeple they are, particularly on slashdot repeat the nonsense they hear from people the believe to be "leaders" but they never form their own opinions. That is the case with Win 8 too. My wife worked on Win 8 for quite a while, one day asking me if that useful search thing on the right side of the screen was related to the odd looking start button, without even knowing it was Windows 8.

Re:What trend? by terjeber · 2013-04-19 18:27 · Score: 1

Because, as with most people, even geeks these days are sheeple unable to form their own opinions.

They stand a much better chance by EngnrFrmrlyKnownAsAC · 2013-04-19 18:31 · Score: 1

if they don't end-of-life XP

--
Howdy howdy howdy

Re:What trend? by dbIII · 2013-04-19 19:42 · Score: 0

Did I say impossible? No? Then fuck off with your attack on a strawman in my name and comment on what was actually written instead.

Another skewed post by dbIII · 2013-04-19 19:45 · Score: 1

Ignoring the "for whatever reason" is an annoying example of pretending to be stupid in order to win some sort of fanboy argument game. Please stop following me around and teabagging me with whatever baggage you have.

Re:Another skewed post by terjeber · 2013-04-20 05:11 · Score: 1

You think too highly of your self. I had no clue that I had ever replied to any of the other moronic drivel you have posted in your life. Stop being paranoid and dumb.
Re:Another skewed post by terjeber · 2013-04-20 05:16 · Score: 1

BTW, do you do anything but post on /.? Get a life man.
Re:Another skewed post by dbIII · 2013-04-20 05:46 · Score: 1

Don't tell me you've forgotten all that homeoerotic shit about how you were going to sodomise me from last time - do you write such things so often that you've forgotten?
Re:Another skewed post by terjeber · 2013-04-20 09:30 · Score: 1

Don't tell me you've forgotten all that homeoerotic shit about how you were going to sodomise me from last time
I do believe you have me confused with someone else.

But by Safety+Cap · 2013-04-19 20:10 · Score: 1

I find his (her?) repeated harassment, stalking and teabagging to be quite funny! Don't stop!!

--
Yeah, right.

Re:But by dbIII · 2013-04-19 20:14 · Score: 1

This annoying agressively gay prick played the same petty little game a few months ago but at least you are getting some entertainment from me calling him out.

(No originality points awarded for a 'Fire Steve B by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 20:52 · Score: 0

Set Steve on fire?

Re:Server 2012 - anyone else frustrated by that to by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 21:02 · Score: 0

Win+X

Survival depends on becoming Free Software by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 21:35 · Score: 0

Anything that is not Free Software, is ultimately doomed. There simply is not any good reason to pay for what is now, very obviously, a completely inferior product.
Windows has high maintenance costs, is a total nightmare to administer [speaking as a former windows sysadmin]. Windows also has a cripplingly expensive licence model. Why should we keep paying for the same piece of software every few years?
As a developer, I'm also sick of seeing MS APIs come and go, faster than we can even write a complete piece of software for them. Sensibly, we never committed any effort to .NET, since our top management had serious fears about the patent situation. We need to be able to write portable software, than can be sold into markets where software patents still exist (USA). C# is certainly a much easier language to develop in than C++, but executables built in it, definitely aren't as performant, and WPF is not as nice as Qt, and not anywhere _near_ as well documented. It would now be very difficult to argue for choosing any Windows only development technology. MS is killing their own development technologies, by restricting them to the windows platform, and not offering equivalent tools for Linux / Apple.
Office/Windows are also now legacy products, that have actually been getting worse, over the last few generations. The human interface disasters of the ribbon toolbar, and windows 8 UI will almost certainly need to be reversed, or more damage will be done to microsoft. There is no way that this crap can be deployed in a production environment.
I don't see windows vanishing completely. It will hang around, probably in ten years, it will exist mostly in VMs, just so that legacy software can still be be run. I believe that Windows will begin a somewhat more rapid demise than many people may be expecting.

Re:Survival depends on becoming Free Software by tarpitcod · 2013-04-20 02:54 · Score: 1

That's total garbage. It's not about free software. Before you blow a gasket let me say I like free software and use it constantly for my job but making statements like that is just ridiculous.
There are piles of people who use proprietary software every day. Be honest and think about it.
There are bunches of people doing serious things that use non-free software, and folks doing less serious things using non-free software every day. How many people use Excel every day? Autocad? Photoshop? How many airline tickets are from systems running non-free OS's running a non-free DB like Oracle? Do you think most TV Stations use free software?
I'm not saying 'could use free software' I'm saying DO use free software.
Let alone really important things like run a chemical plant or nuclear reactor. For all you know they are running VMS which definitely isn't free and is stable and has worked and absolutely must work or people die.

Re:Server 2012 - anyone else frustrated by that to by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 22:15 · Score: 0

Want to run event viewer?

Press , press , press , press , press , its even faster than using the mouse and the start button. It works also in W7.

Re:What trend? by chopthechops · 2013-04-19 22:46 · Score: 0

The problem is not the lack of a Start menu or whether it's replacement is easy to use or not - it is the brainlessness of the Metro* apps that is going to hold the platform back. Sure you can force Win8 to stay in the desktop environment for now (and possibly for the short term future) however MS have made it abundantly clear that Metro-based apps delivered via their store is their vision for the future. Unfortunately the Metro UI (at least on a non-touch enabled PC) does not lend itself well to 'serious' apps (even the Office 2013 still requires the desktop interface) so I struggle to see how they have even thought this through. It would have made a lot more sense to keep Metro as a secondary UI on desktops and laptops, keeping it for compatibility with phones and tablets but not pushing it as the future for productivity apps. Can you imagine how a Metro version of Photoshop could possibly work? * I know it's no longer called Metro but there's no way I'm going to call it Modern UI or Microsoft design language or whatever. The fact that they bumbled the name of their new interface does not bode well for the competence of the design team.

Of course they're doomed by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-19 23:40 · Score: 0

Making $20 billion a quarter gross is often a sign that company is doomed. Sheesh.

http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/04/microsoft-posts-record-third-quarter-revenue-in-spite-of-flat-windows-numbers/

MS won, no-one cares. by jchap · 2013-04-19 23:59 · Score: 1

"A Computer on every desktop! Microsoft in every computer! We win!! Hey, where did everybody go?"

We're outside in the sunshine with wireless multi-touch internet enabled tablets and a million other places.

The world has outgrown MS's vision. If you want to make money you gotta either predict or create the future.

What does MS say to me these days?

"Other people's UIs are nice."
"You must use our software at work"
"Do you remember how much you liked XP?"
"DRM is good"
"We like your tablet - here's a cabinet sized version."
"We've cut our boot time to 30s!"
"Develop for our platform - that's where all the cool kids hang out!!"
Etc etc.

Get a clue MS!

Find someone who's been hidden away in a cave for the last 20 years and ask them what people will need *tomorrow*.

IE is Windows-only and Safari is Mac-only by tepples · 2013-04-20 00:38 · Score: 1

IE has been Windows-only for the last four major versions, and Safari has recently become exclusive to Mac OS X. This means not even a PC can "run all the different browsers" unless it's a Mac with a genuine copy of Windows installed into Boot Camp or into a virtual machine and with all mobile SDKs installed.

Re:IE is Windows-only and Safari is Mac-only by cyber-vandal · 2013-04-21 23:51 · Score: 1

So basically there's no tablet that can do it. Thanks for answering my question.

So sad by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-20 00:50 · Score: 0

All I have to say is: are you effing serious?

Anyone will allow that the the Windows 8 UI is a little wonky. Especially on phones, it's not for those who prefer a clean look. But it's functional. Windows 8 itself is leaps and bounds faster and more stable than Windows 7, solid as it was. And Microsoft has had OS "failure" after OS "failure": 95 (sort of), Me, Vista... People weren't even big on XP when it came out. How could any serious journalist write some alarmist article about it being the end of the line for Windows?

Yet? by WD · 2013-04-20 00:57 · Score: 1

"Windows: Not Doomed Yet"

Yet! What does "yet" mean anyway? It means you're gonna do it, doesn't it? Or does it? Just come on. What would it mean to you, that sentence: I haven't seen Evil Dead II yet?

STFU already! It runs better than windows 7 by Vince6791 · 2013-04-20 01:16 · Score: 1

People have been complaining about new MS OS's releases since windows 95. People just don't like change it's that simple. WTF is so complicated about the new start menu? It's as easy as the old start menu and it should not take you more then 20 minutes to figure out the whole thing(metro, charm bar) if you have been using a computer for the past 5 - 20 years. Why are people saying the metro looks kiddy looking and it does not belong in the corporate business world? does the gui have to look old, bland, shitty looking to meet corporate standards? I guess that's why corporations want employees wearing those damn awful, uncomfortable, penguin suits.

You can always use classical shell which is free and has the old 98, xp, 7 start menu to choose from if you feel metro is too complicated for you. I mentioned before windows 8 is actually faster to install, update, and setup than windows 7. Works nice on my dual screen no issues. The only thing I bitch about is the pricing for a single license and that's it.

People can always stay with windows 7 or even try out linux but be warned that all linux distro's are complicated to deal with if you don't have the right hardware. The open source drivers for ati radeon 6570 does not work for me i get horrible graphical glitches, crashes unless i use nomodeset and install the ati proprietary drivers but in recovery mode which I doubt regular joe knows how to do it.

Wrong question by yelvington · 2013-04-20 01:20 · Score: 1

The right question is: How do we erase this scourge forever, including all of the compromised bot-infested Windows machines around the world?

Timing sucks by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-20 01:54 · Score: 0

With XP EOL'ing in 2014, I get a lot of un-tech savvy friends and family thinking about ugrading and asking me what laptop to buy.

I can't in good faith say go buy a current laptop pre-installed with windows because I've had a poke around on win 8 and frankly its a dogs breakfast. For most people I ask them: what will you use it for? And for most people the answer becomes - then get a tablet. But don't get a windows 8 tablet coz they're shit. So that leaves iPads and androids. I generally suggest androids because of the crapness that is itunes.

If someone has a use case that only a lappie or desktop can fulfill and has to have windows, well, I tell them to get a laptop with a windows 8 license and then immediately remove it to install windows 7.

Re:Timing sucks by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-25 06:20 · Score: 0

With XP EOL'ing in 2014, I get a lot of un-tech savvy friends and family thinking about ugrading and asking me what laptop to buy.
No you don't. "un-tech savvy" types don't even have a concept of their OS going EOL in 2014.
If someone has a use case that only a lappie or desktop can fulfill and has to have windows, well, I tell them to get a laptop with a windows 8 license and then immediately remove it to install windows 7.
Do you tell them how much the full retail cost of win7 is (given that they will have a non-downgradeable OEM version? Do you offer to install it for them and find the (possibly non-existent) Win7 drivers?

Lack of a killer app. by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-20 02:09 · Score: 0

With each passing year, more and more of the killer apps of the past become commodities. Commodities sell for cost-plus and are available from multiple sellers.

Next true killer app idea will be literally worth billions. Got one?

Marketing versus Moore's Law by tarpitcod · 2013-04-20 02:16 · Score: 1

Marketing, producing products your users want do matter. Part of that is convincing your users they want to do that... There's a much more fundamental thing going on here. It's the same force that killed the dominance of the Mainframe, and the Mini.

Machines are fast enough now to do everything most consumers want to do with them.

Let's extrapolate what that really means:
1) Surf the web - Fine on 5 year old hardware (Even with stuff like Flash)
2) Watch video - Fine on a 5 year old box
3) Write something - Fine on a 5 year old box
4) Compute something - For most users fine on a 5 year old box.

Do you see the pattern here? The average user can do everything they want to do. Which gets to the crux of it. The real problem is that their isn't some new killer application that causes such a stir most users want to upgrade. The same thing happened to the mainframe and the mini. Once mini's were fast enough people used them to do many things (not all things) mainframes did. When the killer micros were fast enough users used them to do many things that mini's did.

What's going on is that we lived through a period where there were tangible benefits in upgrading. The truth as much as some might argue about it is that users bought into needing multitasking, they could see that editing some document or image (or video) was tangibly better on a faster machine.

What did that? Think about the mid 80's to 90's and even early 00's. There was the GUI. 90's we had the Web. Do you remember how insanely saturated EVERYTHING was with the web? It was www this and www that and web this and web that. In the 00's there was video. Hey you can watch video on your machine over broadband.

The machine running Windows 95 really was better for surfing the web than their WFWG 3.11 machine. The windows XP really was more reliable than the Windows 98 machine if you wanted to install random crap.

What's happened is that there's no real new apps that the average consumer cares about.

Now, if someone comes out with a killer app that needs a machine of PC levels of capability and piles of consumers are convinced they need it then the PC will take off. Microsoft has made Windows 8 look like a tablet OS to the average consumer, who based on sales figures is not convinced at all that they really want a tablet OS on their PC.

The PC won't die, just like the Mainframe didn't die and yes we still run piles of Mini's (Servers). It's just that your PC may be the size of a raspberry pi. For some people it will be the size of a regular PC or Laptop. Guess what - if you have to stick a decent sized screen on it and a keyboard it's going to be at least some size. That's until you either wear VR style glasses (No need for a big screen) and don't have motion estimation stuff so good and cheap you can just waggle your fingers in the air like you are typing on a virtual keyboard.

My Reaction by rally2xs · 2013-04-20 02:52 · Score: 1

My reaction to the display of Win 8 tiles home page has been the same as my reaction to the Office "You can't buy a CD & you can't transfer it between machines" nonsense - GFY. Now I hear that you can transfer Office between machines, and Win 8.1 is rumored to restore the familiar desktop and start button. I may get interested in Win 8.1, not sure about Office - I still don't like the idea of renting it rather than owning it.

I must be doing it wrong by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-20 04:26 · Score: 0

I develop for Android on a Linux box, and on a Mac laptop if I have to go somewhere. I need to dust my Windows boxes.

who cares about the OS ? by datadefender · 2013-04-20 04:47 · Score: 1

I need to do my work that requires certain applications. And I want them to run on my PC because I do not want to use cloud services. I keep my data for years in local archice. For all this I do not really care on which OS it runs. It is the applications I want - and lets face it the most applications still exist for windows. And a program that ran fibe on Win95 back then still runs on Win7. Forget the Mac- changes OS every few years. Linux ? yes I would like to - but even with LTS versions I need to re-install the OS every 2-3 years. My XP ran fine for 8 years. Now you understabnd why I use Windows - it just does the job. All else is academical.

Re:who cares about the OS ? by mikechant · 2013-04-25 06:28 · Score: 1

Linux ? yes I would like to - but even with LTS versions I need to re-install the OS every 2-3 years.
5 years support now for Ubuntu and Mint LTS
13 years for RHEL/CentOS etc.

Re:What trend? by terjeber · 2013-04-20 05:07 · Score: 1

it is the brainlessness of the Metro* apps that is going to hold the platform back

Are you really that retarded? I mean, seriously? Mentally handicapped in some way? Let's have a nice car analogy. "What's holding the Ford Focus back is the fact that the new Jeep has square lights". I mean, seriously? Here, I'll give you a little hint: If you don't like Metro apps, DON'T USE THEM! I mean, how hard is that. Every single metro app has a desktop app that is twice as good at least, so only a masochistic moron with no brain whatsoever would use Metro apps if he doesn't like them. Sheesh.

MS have made it abundantly clear that Metro-based apps delivered via their store is their vision for the future

For touch devices, sure. Not for desktop apps, and desktop apps are (obviously) not going anywhere.

Microsoft, Define and Satisfy the PC Market! by Amorak1 · 2013-04-20 05:12 · Score: 1

Windows is too powerful and expensive for most users. In the past, most PC users did not write very much, never edited a photograph, weren't punching numbers into spreadsheets, in short, didn't need the power that has always been available to them, not only in the later versions of windows, but even going back as far as MS-DOS and Windows 3.0. So what we're seeing, I think, is a settling of the PC market into a core group of users who need the power and interface capabilities of Windows and its wondrous array of software. There are uses relating to business and personal needs that require substantial input of text and that require large screens that even laptops can't handle with convenience. I own a PC, laptop, iPad and smartphone and each of them has its place and importance. This current shakeout was inevitable and I fault Microsoft for not protecting its interests by unifying interfaces and file types across multiple device types. And that remains the big opportunity for Microsoft. Windows 8 could be made to work on all devices with MS Office available with one subscription for all devices we own. Apple has won market share by combining features into the iPhone/iPad that satisfy people who don't require PC power and who want portability, the Internet and games. But make no mistake, PC users also want these things AND we want and need our PCs. So Apple and its imitators got all of us but left PC users without standards. Microsoft has the opportunity to do the same thing for those who must have PCs but also want (and need) portability and standards. They own that whole market! I really wanted a Windows smartphone to work for me because of Office (OneNote, in particular) but the Windows smartphones aren't as good as my BlackBerry Z10. And a "matching" Windows 8 tablet is not really unifying yet, not to a PC and smartphone. In the end, I think Windows 8 will win by default, but what's really telling to me, and helps explain things, is that despite being on the market for over 30 years, not even robust tasking software (To Do lists with deep features) is available with auto instant synchronizing across all platforms and devices. Until PC users are regarded as a unique and steadfast market, unification, I guess, won't happen. It's too bad because Microsoft has that to itself if it would just fire 90% of its software developers and then lock an elite bunch of 18-year-olds into a room for a year to get the job done.

Re:What trend? by terjeber · 2013-04-20 05:19 · Score: 1

Let's try again, fixing the start button, what are the "Win8 ... massive change[s] in UI"? It's an easy question. Why not answer it rather than getting stuck on a word selected to match your "massive change"? What changes are we actually talking about?

Ton of cash?? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-20 06:24 · Score: 0

You seem to be innumerate. To you "big number" == "infinite".

However if you look at Microsofts "burn rate", at an extreme if there revenues fell to zero, they'd be at zero assets (cash plus non-liquid assets) in 2.5 years!!! Even if something that radical didn't happen, it would be very ugly. For example spinning out product lines, radical downsizing, sell-offs of assets like buildings, etc.

Windows dead? Where's the to be an actual OS body? by RionBreffeny · 2013-04-20 06:26 · Score: 1

Is the words of Alan Rickman (in the role of "Dr. Lazarus" in the film "Galaxy Quest") may I remind you that this man is wearing a costume not a uniform - he's no more equipped to lead than this man is (no offence). Or in cur speek: Windows is a Presentation Manager not an OS. Make a list of tasks (copy a file, mail a file, download a file, etc). slap the same shell around it, give it irritate-ing-ly slightly different use syntax and mouse moves (my fav is that you can't move more than one file from a SAVE-AS dialog). So, what operate-ing system treats *every* thing as a file. (For viewers at home who want to play along, the answer is come-ing up on your screen.... )... You're always complain-ing ... !! But, I *like* shelling out hundreds of dollars for bizarrely different presentation managers and have-ing to learn where the @@)*$#)*) ! start menu has been moved to !!

All odd numbered Windows suck by vandamme · 2013-04-20 07:26 · Score: 0

All even numbered, totally shit the bed

It ain't over by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-20 07:44 · Score: 0

OSs are tools to an end. I use Windows 8, Windows 7 and XP Microsoft products. I have to. That's what my employer is using. My workstation is Ubuntu12.04 and I also support MACs. I adapted to Windows 8 very quickly and find many of it's feature very good. Users will use what ever they feel comfortable with. That's why I think the Apple products have done so well. Business wise Windows is still the big dog in this country. If you are counting them out you are cutting yourself off from a lot of good work. This ain't no beauty contest. Windows 8 works fine. Get over it and get back to work.

Re:What trend? by cavebison · 2013-04-20 09:34 · Score: 1

Why not just install ClassicShell?

Re:What trend? by Luckyo · 2013-04-20 09:36 · Score: 1

UI isn't really what you'd call bloat if it can be turned off. Classic theme was present in 7 and removed all the "windows transparency and shit" in 7. Natively.

Re:What trend? by Luckyo · 2013-04-20 09:43 · Score: 1

Call me back when real life game and applications actually follow the path of benchmarks. Considering the under the hood optimizations and benchmark detection in modern software, I don't think I'll be getting that call any time soon though.

Re:What trend? by terjeber · 2013-04-20 10:33 · Score: 1

They rarely do. So, I did another test, and it didn't give me the same improvement for sure. The video encoding was about 15% faster under Windows 8 than it was under Windows 7 on the same box. Still, I take the 15% real improvement in speed and say "thank you". Wouldn't you?

They've just lost sight by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-20 13:04 · Score: 0

IMHO, Microsoft has lost sight of what made them so popular. It was pretty simple to use Office back in the days of Word Perfect at least from my point of view. Futher, Windows had just started and was much simpler in comparison to what it is now. People have been using the interface for more than a decade, then it was changed to chase a market share that sprouted back in the later 90's. They could have started the tablet market had they listened to the guy who started to pitch it internally. Their issues as I see them are:
1: Alienation of their client base.
2: Needlessly complex. (Take a look at Lync to see how complicated it can get, the components required and how many servers you need.) The more complex something is the more likely it will break.
3: Freedom, you use to be able to change your desktop the way you liked now you are limited.
4: No longer productive, it takes a lot more mouse clicks to get anywhere.
5: They have no standards, PowerShell requires Server, Exchange, Lync, SQL versions, RATHER THAN CREATING A BOSE AND ADDING TO IT! They deprecate commands with every new version vs. creating a link to the new command. Patches reduce functionality within the GUI, seriously?
6: 2013 products don't appear to be ready for prime time. Exchange 2013 is missing most if the MGMT components you used in 2010, Server is even more foreign. So I need to learn everything all over again every time a patch is released that jacks with managment, a newer version comes out, PowerShell changes. That's not productive, learning a new feature is one thing learning to manage things all over again. This is why I've looked at alternatives that actually have a standard and are more productive.
7: Choice, Win8 kinda locks you into what you can do, I'm not a big fan of that.
8: They've turned their backs on those who have supported their products over the past decade, as well as OEMs and developers.

Microsoft is opening up plenty of room for others to make progress and competition.

Re:What trend? by Gabrill · 2013-04-20 15:13 · Score: 1

The default configuration is the only configuration that the vast majority of business and home users care about. The 2nd thing that servicemen ask is if we've reverted to the default configuration to resolve issues. The first thing they ask is if we've tried rebooting the machine.

--
Always going forward, 'cause we can't find reverse.

"smart developers and engineers" by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-20 15:38 · Score: 0

"After all, the company still has a lot of really smart developers and engineers..."

if you are talking about the people who 'create' their consumer products, i can only reply, "by their works you shall know them." their people by and large are hirelings who wd do something else if it wd pay better. i've worked with the type, feel very sorry for them, and wish they wd get out of the industry.

my question: how do you account for the fact that linux and bsd are far better operating systems than the microsoft "ya'll come" virus (the one that gets on yr machine and then invites all the others)? my answer: linux and bsd are the creation of people who cannot get from the hireling system the tools which they need to do the work they love,.

Re:What trend? by NJRoadfan · 2013-04-20 17:35 · Score: 1

Its actually more bloated. Another less advertised "feature" of Windows 8 is the fact that the Desktop Window Manager can't be turned off. If you don't have 3D compatible video drivers running (rare these days), it uses software rendering. It is why the lightweight "classic" theme was killed off. This is also a major break in backwards compatibility with picky Windows 98/2000/XP apps. Microsoft dropped any sort of compatibility mode for anything pre-Vista as a result, the modes in Windows 7 went all the way back to Windows 95! Yet, they killed off Aero, the one nice thing about the hardware accelerated window manager!

I doomed Microsoft in 1997 by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-21 01:14 · Score: 0

I doomed Microsoft in my kingdom, in 1997. Incompetency is not tolerated here.

Since, I have built or rebuilt, 5 systems per week, 1 business or charity per month, with the superior GNU/Linux or BSD, immune to the
50 million Microsoft Virus, and all that wasted labor to find, and eliminate, problems, exploits, virus.

Even Microsoft runs 400 Aruba Linux router firewalls, and thousands of Linux servers, and workstations...

Seems competency is not tolerated by many of the more intelligent Microsoft Corporation brains, either!

(Shhh! Steve Ballmer might hear, and fire more intelligent leaders, managers, innovators!)

Re:What trend? by Luckyo · 2013-04-21 01:20 · Score: 1

If you actually got a 15% speed improvement on video encoding with same software and drivers on the same machine just on different OS, it's time to either reinstall 7 or start looking for the serious problem in OS causing it to lose that much efficiency at the task that doesn't really benefit from any OS improvements and is pretty much dependent on software used to encode and what it does.

Re:What trend? by Luckyo · 2013-04-21 01:22 · Score: 1

I don't agree with this. UI as is configured in "display options" isn't a part of default configuration that is asked to be reverted to in most cases. I've personally seen a lot of UI changes from default on many corporate machines, ranging from color changes to font changes, to theme changes. These are as easy as selecting display options and selecting a different theme. All of this has been built into windows since 95, so a lot of people use it.

Re:What trend? by terjeber · 2013-04-21 03:30 · Score: 1

If you actually got a 15% speed improvement on video encoding with same software and drivers on the same machine just on different OS, it's time to either reinstall 7

Video encoding and benchmarks have one thing in common, they are very, very CPU and memory intensive. Video encoding adds some disk overhead to this, but since my source material resides on SSDs, that impact is lessened. Since my Win8 install was a plain upgrade where Windows 8 carried over software, drivers and services from Windows 7, it is quite unlikely that this was due to anything else than the OS upgrade.

The OS handles several things that directly impact the performance of your software. Things like memory management, thread-dispatch and file-system performance are directly impacted by how the OS does its job. Since the benchmarks show a quite significant improvement in all of these areas, it is not surprising that it has a real world impact on real world software that is CPU and memory bound.

I am sorry that my real world (and it is not only mine) experience directly contradicts your religious notions that Windows 8 cannot be an improvement over 7, but I am one of those who relate to the real world as it is, not a fantasy dictated to me by overlords of a religious cult. I highly recommend it, it means that your world view is shattered a lot less often than when you are convinced your religious notions trumps the real world.

Re:What trend? by chopthechops · 2013-04-21 04:47 · Score: 1

Oh wow, I'm actually mentally handicapped! Thanks for pointing that out to me. And thanks for that easy to understand analogy too, I sure would not understand anything about computers without comparing them to cars. So let me get this straight: Ford Focus=Windows 8 desktop and Jeep=Metro yeah? I never knew you could buy a Ford Focus with a built in Jeep. Pardon my ignorance but you know how dumb I am. For the sake of your analogy I will also pretend Ford currently owns the Jeep brand.

So I want to buy a new Ford because my old one is clapped out - it breaks down a lot, has trouble keeping up in traffic, and seems to attract car jackers at an alarming rate. I go to the local Ford dealer and he shows me the brand new model Ford Focus that for some reason now has a Jeep bolted to the side of it like a siamese twin. Occupants can sit in and move freely between either side of the twin but they can only enter the car via the Jeep side. The car salesman says "When you want to drive to work you drive from the Focus side and when you want to go camping you drive from the Jeep side". I notice that there is a steering wheel and pedals in each of the two cars but to access either drivers seat I have to get in the door on the Jeep side. The Focus side doesn't have a drivers door at all! This twin car seems really odd but I buy it anyway because Ford no longer sells the Focus without the attached Jeep, I've always bought Fords, and everybody tells me I should buy a Ford because thats what everyone else buys, and therefore every other car brand is a piece of crap.

When I go to drive the car to work I find I can only start the car from the Jeep side because there's no ignition key on the Focus side. So I have to first start it from the Jeep drivers seat, then shimmy over to the Focus drivers seat to drive to work. Then I find the controls are a bit funny. The windscreen wipers only work from the Focus side and the parking brake only works from the Jeep side, but fortunately the turn signals can be operated from either side. Then I find there are two completely independent stereo systems, one in each car. The Focus stereo is identical to the one in my old car so I have no trouble using it at all but the one in the Jeep only seems to have one button on it and it only plays some radio stations. Same with the dashboard. The Focus dashboard has most of the usual dials, switches and knobs but the Jeep dashboard is so weird I may as well be flying a spaceship. Fortunately I can work out how to do things by pressing random controls or asking the neighbour (who also owns a Focus/Jeep twin) how to do things. So I find the new twin car is a bit quirky, but yeah I can drive it ok by trial and error, practice my front seat shimmying skills, and ask the neighbour a lot of questions. Seems like a lot of trouble but I'm willing to give it a go.

Unfortunately after a few months of driving the twin car I decide I really don't like using the Jeep side at all because I don't need it, it looks ugly, it's weird to operate, and it doesn't drive very well. I'm tired of all the seat shimmying shenanigans and I just want to drive a normal car again.

So now you tell me I just need to do bit of simple home panel beating to cut a driver access hole into the side of the Focus, and I can add an extra set of wiper and parking brake controls and restore whatever other functionality is missing from the Focus side by using a few simple parts from the local Auto accessory store. With these simple modifications I can operate my Focus/Jeep twin as if it is just a Focus. Yay! So I can have what I wanted all along - just a Focus? Well maybe a Focus with a great lump of redundant steel bolted to the side of it.

But what about those rumours I've heard that Ford are planning to drop the Focus side of the Focus/Jeep twin in next years model because they make so much money selling official Jeep accessories through the Jeep shop. I hear the Focus/Jeep twin is just a transitional model designed to get all Focus owners used to buying Jeep accessor

Re:What trend? by terjeber · 2013-04-21 05:45 · Score: 1

None of your car analogy nonsense is related in any way to Windows. There is no reason to use Metro apps anywhere, any time for a desktop user. Try again.

Re:What trend? by Luckyo · 2013-04-21 08:14 · Score: 1

Incorrect. The "memory intensiveness" of video encoding is low enough that even the lowest and slowest memory on the market is unlikely to meaningfully impact it. It's essentially either CPU or GPU bound at this point.

As a result the factors that impact it are first and foremost software optimization for CPU/GPU, followed by raw power of these units.

You'd need to get some really slow random access memory and a really fast GPU linked to it to get hit by memory bus constraints.

Regardless, my "religious conviction" about speed improvements appears to be largely matched by software industry. There is no lowering of system requirements for 8 over 7, and software generally requires X GB of RAM for XP and X+1GB for 7.

So it would appear to be a giant conspiracy!

Or you may be wrong.

Re:What trend? by terjeber · 2013-04-21 09:03 · Score: 1

Incorrect. The "memory intensiveness" of video encoding is low enough that even the lowest and slowest memory on the market is unlikely to meaningfully impact it. It's essentially either CPU or GPU bound at this point

LOL. Yeah, you must be right. Or clueless. 1920x1080 non-compressed 32bit video including transparency uses no memory when encoded. Add three to five layers of video, and we are talking no memory whatsoever. Sure, you know what you are talking about. When you stick to things that are not more complicated than surfing for porn.

Re:What trend? by Luckyo · 2013-04-21 10:49 · Score: 1

Steps for ignorant assholes that have a faint grasp on theory and zero on facts, yet like to insult others:

1. Download a popular encoder/decoder such as handbrake http://handbrake.fr/
2. Download a popular hardware monitor that does real time monitoring of various parts of your system, such as openhardwaremonitor http://openhardwaremonitor.org/
3. Download process explorer: http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb896653.aspx
4. Get any h.264 movie. You can rip one from youtube.
5. Re-encode the video into any other popular standard, ranging from h.264 to divx. Pay attention to usage. Use openhardwaremonitor for specific CPU/GPU load monitoring and process explorer for memory footprint.
Optional if you have a decent system:
1. Go into your bios. Slow your memory/FSB down as much as you can. Overclock CPU to get same speed on the slower FSB.
2. Restart the system, try re-encoding with exact same settings.
3. Observe your own ignorance as your performance take little impact.
Optional 2: Attempt to do the same in opposite direction, or even insert faster RAM into the system. Note how your performance tanks hard in direct relation to CPU in this case.

Do you know why? Because most encoder/decoder software is optimized properly and doesn't need a huge memory footprint. I like watching anime fluff on the go on my phone, so I routinely re-encode h.264 720p and 1080p video into 360p divx that my phone can run for a long while without killing the battery (it's old enough to lack proper h.264 support). As I have to re-encode routinely, I've done some actual research on how to make the process as speedy as possible. As a result, I ended up buying fastest i5 on the market that was available and essentially slowest memory it would take. Because the main things that need performance that I do are gaming and video encoding. And both are CPU and GPU bound and memory throughput is largely irrelevant as long as its "fast enough not to bottleneck the system" because of it. Criteria which the slowest available memory at the point of buying the CPU met with plenty to spare.

As for your hilarious claims in relation to the original topic of OS "memory optimizations", issue is that data portion that needs high throughput of memory when decoding/encoding is direct and largely uncacheable, meaning that OS optimizations have little to no impact and is mainly dependent on hardware. That's because it contains the actual video. And in most cases, unless you're encoding in fast GPU hardware while using slow system RAM, you'll be bottlenecked by computing power rather then by memory throughput - which is essentially always true on modern PC architechture. And even if you were limited by memory throughput, there is little to nothing that OS optimizations can do to alleviate the problem, as video encoding is largely not cacheable. It needs actual brutal throughput. Memory management in such tasks is typically best left to the application doing the decode/encode anyway as it will handle the specialized stuff much better then generalist optimizations done by the OS.

Now if you excuse me, I need to go back to "surfing for porn". Your remark reminded me that I haven't surfed for porn in years, a revelation that I found surprisingly disturbing.

Re:What trend? by terjeber · 2013-04-21 18:16 · Score: 1

Download a popular encoder/decoder such as handbrake ... when decoding/encoding is direct and largely uncacheable

Dude, you got it wrong right there - and incidentally demonstrated that you are primarily a porn user. You are talking about encoding video from one format to another. That's nonsense. Here is a better test for you (easiest way to do this if you don't have a couple of Illustrator experts on staff):

1. Download After Effects (best), Adobe Premiere Pro or Vegas Video Pro
2. Download Digital Juice and either a ready2go set or Toxic Theme set for your application.
3. Create a project from one of the supplied templates.
4. Add 5-6 videos, you decide format, to the new project.
5. Render.

Sorry dude, but cross-rendering a video file is not what people who create video do. They add non-compressed 32 bit (with transparency) video to time lines to create masks, put 32 bit uncompressed video as lower-third overlays on top of that, make the resulting composition move in 3D space etc. This requires a lot of memory interaction - and incidentally, both the masks, lower thirds etc are looped, which means the process benefits tremendously from not having to read them from disk at every loop. A looped mask or lower third can re-play many, many times in a single video. This is why After Effects in 64 bits is so much better than in 32. It will use all of your memory and then some.

Re:What trend? by Luckyo · 2013-04-21 20:19 · Score: 1

Ah, you're not talking about video ENCODING. You're talking about video CREATION. Specifically significant post-processing not dissimilar to what was mentioned much higher in the thread as one of the applications that require high amounts of memory - photoshop. Something you apparently failed to notice in your perverse crusade to label me as "primarily porn user".

You should consider getting your terminology straight if you want a discussion on slashdot. Especially since your issue was covered something around 10 or 12 posts ago by this "primarily porn user".

Video encoding is what you do when you format shift, or do the actual encoding pass on the video that has all the effects added in. Video rendering is indeed the process which can greatly benefit from a lot of memory, advanced caching functions and in some rare cases higher memory throughput as it's the process where initial passes add things like filters and effects to video which can be cached to be cycled over video.

I suggest you get your basic terminology straight before you come back to the discussion.

Re:What trend? by terjeber · 2013-04-21 22:05 · Score: 1

Ah, you're not talking about video ENCODING

No, I specifically meant the encoding part of the video creation process, which is one of the benchmarks I run. In video encoding you take some stuff that is not (a single) video, such as transition descriptions, overlays, videos, images etc, and you encode it into (a single) video. What you were talking about is video transcoding (I assume), where you take video in one format and transcode it into another format, usually avoiding significant quality loss.

Video encoding is what you do when you format shift, or do the actual encoding pass on the video that has all the effects added in

That would be either transcoding or transrating, depending on how you configure the target video.

Video professionals use transcoding to convert a highly compressed format such as H.264 to a more edit friendly format like MXF or others. This means that they can edit and composite a number of times with little or no quality loss. There are even companies that specialize in creating transcoding tools for this specific purpose. Some allow you to edit low-res versions of your video, automatically replacing it with the original for the encoding process. This was always done when computers were slow, it was often done with HD until a few years ago, and it is mostly done with 4K video today. Transcoding.

Re:What trend? by goarilla · 2013-04-21 22:26 · Score: 1

Dude he's not saying it doesn't take memory he's just saying relative to the cpu and gpu , system memory SPEED is one of your last concerns.

Re:What trend? by terjeber · 2013-04-21 23:38 · Score: 1

And that is wrong. If you have five time-lines of video, two of which is 32 bit with transparency, there is a lot of data in memory being manipulated. Video Editing software doesn't deal with compressed video, each video frame must be manipulated in an uncompressed state. So, during the render/encode process, algorithms are working on 30 un-compressed HD video frames per second multiplied by five or more time-lines. That is a lot of data going in and out of memory.

The assertion of his is that Win8, though having significant improvements measured by geekbench, can't possibly have any improvements in real life. His religious view is contradicted by real world observations.

Re:What trend? by hjf · 2013-04-22 01:35 · Score: 1

Yes. I don't understand: what's the point of hardware-accelerated WM if you're not using transparency effects? I liked windows because it actually did the transparency right. Subtle, yet it's there. It's not invasive and it's actually useful (the transparent taskbar doesn't mess your wallpaper).

Re:There is only one possible course of action. by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-22 14:39 · Score: 0

It's Man on Man all the way round

Fundamentals have changed by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-24 06:36 · Score: 0

Something fundamental has changed : MS can no longer force all manufacturers to preload Windows only, and MS cant re-code IOS / Android to screw nonWindows apps. Yesss!

Re:A Better Windows? Boot time 0 seconds by Anonymous Coward · 2013-04-25 06:11 · Score: 0

Use the RAM memory to store the OS not just configuration?

Well duh. It's called suspend (to RAM). Works fine on all my current equipment, netbook, laptop, desktop, Windows, Linux whatever.

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