The Moderately Enthusiastic Programmer

An anonymous reader writes: "Developer Avdi Grimm posts about the trend throughout the software industry of companies demanding that job applicants be 'passionate' about programming when hiring into ordinary development jobs. Grimm says, 'I love code. I dream of code. I enjoy code. I find writing high quality code deeply satisfying. I feel the same way about helping others write code they can feel proud of. But do I feel 'strong and barely controllable emotion' about code? Honestly? No. ... I think some of the people writing these job ads are well-meaning. Maybe most of them. I think when they write "passionate" they mean "motivated." No slackers. No one who is a drag on the team. But sometimes I worry that it's code for we want to exploit your lack of boundaries. Maybe it's fanciful on my part, but there's a faintly Orwellian whiff to the language of these job ads: excuse me comrade, I couldn't help but notice that man over there is not chanting the team slogan with sincere revolutionary conviction.' Is it realistic for employers to expect us to be passionate about software we're hired to build? If they're looking for the head of a major product, then maybe it's warranted — but for everybody, even the grunts?"

Comments

Dreaming of code?

[JLennox]

I don't get this psudo-nerd bragging right. I've worked jobs I hated and had dreams about them, too.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not all dreams are pleasant.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[Anonymous Coward]

You know what makes workers happy and proud to work for your company and chant its slogans? Bonuses, good salaries, good benefits, reasonable metrics, pizza during long meetings and seminars, holiday parties; you know, all that shit that costs a few extra pennies that most corporations don't want to spend.

More likely is that corporations you're working for are pissing on your head and telling you its raining.

-- Ethanol-fueled

Re:Dreaming of code?

[BreakBad]

I see you've done code for Uncle Sam as-well.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[JustOK]

Pizza was invented in Leban.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, that's (proven) not true. Money only works up to a (surprisingly low) point. Beyond that, what matters is that they enjoy what they're doing, and think they're making something worth selling. Investment in the product is what matters really.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[mbkennel]

| Actually, that's (proven) not true. Money only works up to a (surprisingly low) point

I've heard a CEO say exactly this in response to questions from an employee about bonuses and stock compensation.

Notably, it didn't seem to apply to him, when applied in much much larger quantity.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[j35ter]

yeah? Well, try cutting "their" bonuses, Mr. Manager!!!

Re:Dreaming of code?

[fishybell]

Much worse: getting to work in the morning and the realizing you hadn't actually made the change to the code you dreamed about.

My biggest indicator I'm getting too stressed at work: all my dreams are in code. Not just me dreaming of sitting at a desk coding, but the actual visuals are of Vim and nothing else.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is, I've jolted awake certain I've just stumbled on the fantastic solution for the problem that's been consuming me for weeks --- only to realize that, when you're dreaming, complete and utter nonsense can seem coherent. No, there is actually no way to insert a forest of seven-legged purple lemurs into the inner loop to speed up execution. But, whatever part of my brain is responsible for saying "hey, that makes perfect sense, and is a great idea!" had gotten all fired up while attached to the random noise generator of my subconscious.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. My last job tried pulling that load of horse shit. I made twice as much now and have better perks on top. Money isn't the ONLY thing that matters. Being treated well and having autonomy and working with people you like matters a ton as well.

But money still matters. Really, you should be getting all of the above or you should be looking for another job.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Actually, that's (proven) not true. Money only works up to a (surprisingly low) point.

Yes. Moreover, it's one of those issues that tends to be either neutral or bad: being perceived as underpaying is a big black mark, but being perceived as paying the going rate is just average and doesn't earn extra credit. On top of that, it's a relative measure, as employees are comparing with their peers at their current job and with what they could achieve elsewhere if they switched jobs, not with some absolute scale where paying $X is stingy but $Y is fair.

For a typical software developer, paying at or slightly above an honest market rate will go a long way to attracting and retaining decent people. It's a job, and they want to pay the rent/mortgage, look after their kids, take the family on holiday, and so on. Once they can do that, bonuses and profit share schemes and stock options and the like are all generally welcome, but sometimes it's more because they recognise the contribution the employee has made and the value of their work than because of any particular amount of money involved.

It seems strange, but it's often just as important or even more so that employees receive genuine compliments from peers and managers when they deserve them. Yes, they're just doing their job, but they're doing it well and no-one likes to feel their hard work is taken for granted. An honest appraisal that recent performance was good, or a sincere offer of support if some things need working on, goes a long way.

Even dumb stuff like a "meaningless" job title bump so it's the same as others in the industry with similar skills and ability can make a difference. I once worked with someone who only had a few years of experience out of university but who was smarter and more productive than average, and he left a role that was otherwise OK just because this didn't happen. The employer's HR department had a strict system where effectively your job title was tied to years of experience with very little flexibility. The developer was worried that his CV was starting to look underpowered if he wanted to move on later, because he still didn't have "Senior" in front of his job title when in most places he would have by then. He jumped ship for little more than a bumped title, and the previous employer lost one of the smartest guys I've ever worked with because HR's computer said no. Coming back to the original point, I think he actually took a slight pay cut to make the jump, too, which puts the money vs. recognition thing in perspective.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[easyTree]

I see a lot of job ads and 'enjoy' deciphering recruiter-speak.

For instance "Excellent Opportunity" invariably means "shitty pay - the only way is up."

Re:Dreaming of code?

[TangoMargarine]

me dreaming of sitting at a desk coding, but the actual visuals are of Vim and nothing else.

Ah, so obviously it was a nightmare ;)

Re:Dreaming of code?

[noh8rz10]

Dude, beer googles. These ideas seem like a good idea at the time, but the next day...

Re:Dreaming of code?

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe the grandparent was refering to the TED talk that research showed that money is only a motivating factor up to a point. After that, motivation comes from other sources like mastery of a subject.

Here's the entertaining RSA Animate version of the TED talk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc

Re:Dreaming of code?

[Half-pint HAL]

You think it's bad when you're asleep? I'm one of those people who sometimes gets my dream-state overlapping with my waking. I remember waking up when I was in the middle of cramming for an Artificial Intelligence exam, and I found myself trying to "instantiate" sitting up and getting out of bed. (Goddamned Prolog!)

Re:Dreaming of code?

[JustOK]

I'm from Japanon, you insensitive claude

Re:Dreaming of code?

[Mad Bad Rabbit]

For people who want to be great at some tangible pursuit: software, race-car driving, etc., money gets less and less effective as a motivator.

For people whose primary goal is to "win" by taking money away from their rivals, money only gets MORE effective.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[Gr33nJ3ll0]

Clear out bad moderation on my part, please ignore.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[Stormy Dragon]

I think the most scary thing is that I've been out of college for almost 15 years now and I'm still regularly having the "it's finals week and you just realized you were signed up for a class you haven't been to all semester" nightmare.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[0123456]

Notably, it didn't seem to apply to him, when applied in much much larger quantity.

The difference between $10,000 a year and $100,000 a year is enormous. The difference between $100,000 a year and $100,000,000 a year is enormous. The difference between $100,000 a year and $200,000 a year isn't really that much, particuarly when you consider how much disappears in tax.

Once most people can comfortably afford a house and a car and some kids, money isn't that important to them because they'll never earn eough to own a private jet. Whereas, for someone who's already earning a few million a year, the private jet isn't that far away.

None of which is to imply that CEOs should be earning what they do, but the difference in motivation should be pretty obvious to anyone who thinks about it for long. If I was a CEO and made a million dollar bonus, it would go in my jet fund. If I was given a million dollar bonus in my current job, I'd go live on a tropical island somewhere.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[curunir]

It seems strange, but it's often just as important or even more so that employees receive genuine compliments from peers and managers when they deserve them

Yep. I work for a Fortune 100 company and one of the surprises when I moved to management was that the budget for salaries is actually 110% of what developers think it is (i.e. if you added up all the salaries that developers think they make, there would be an extra 10% left in the budget.) That last 10% is intended for managers to dole out as awards, which can be taken either as bonus pay or in grossed up gift cards. It was explained to me that the company found that employees were happier making the same overall amount when a portion of the pay was doled out for something they did well. That attachment to a job well done made the pay more meaningful to them than it would have been had it simply been added into their paycheck. And the encouragement to take the money as a gift card also helped associate the company with the spending of discretionary money, which is something that people find pleasurable.

The whole thing was an interesting look into how HR departments are using psychological research to help retain valuable employees. I'm still not sure exactly how I feel about it...on the one hand, it's deceitful that this is being done without employees realizing it. On the other hand, it's making them more happy in their jobs. It's almost like a doctor prescribing a placebo pill...if the patient gets better, does it really matter that it's actually due to a psychological phenomenon?

Re:Dreaming of code?

[GodfatherofSoul]

Friend, that is SO not true. Money has an interesting effect on people. The more you have the more you want. When I was in my 20s, I figured out that to have all I wanted in life I could do with $25K a year. Then I got my first job and "a car that just runs" wasn't enough. Now, I wanted a nice looking car with 4 doors. And, I wanted an apartment in a better part of town. Get another raise? Now, I want a motorcycle, too. And, I want a house. And, that shiny bow I wanted as a kid. Get another raise? Now I want really nice house and a luxury car.

I know I'm not an anomaly. Your tastes evolve especially after you've had a bite of the apple. And, even with $50K+ a year, after taxes that's still works out to $1000+ a paycheck.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[rk]

20 years this May. I still have that dream. I don't think it ever goes away.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[dubbreak]

me dreaming of sitting at a desk coding, but the actual visuals are of Vim and nothing else.

Ah, so obviously it was a nightmare ;)

No need to turn this into a Vim vs Emacs debate.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[iamhigh]

And only 2 of his 6 items listed equate directly to more money for the employee. They represented the following:

Bonuses = Money, Recognition Salary = Money Good Benefits = Security, Money?, Appreciation, Recognition and maybe more Reasonable Metrics = Don't treat us like slaves, Don't treat me like a kid, Treat me like an adult who is trying to make you money so you pay me money Pizza during Meetings = Cool Bosses, Relaxed Atmosphere, Not Cheap Bastards Holiday Parties = Cool Bosses, Relaxed Atmosphere, Not Cheap Bastards

So again, only two are directly related to money. Benefits does indirectly equal more money, but most studies and such do not equate it to salary/bonus. Investment/belief in the product is another factor, but there are many people that work for companies and barely understand the product as it is not relevant to their daily duties. An internal helpdesk position would be a fine example. In fact the helpdesk guy cares more about the internal service they are providing as that is their "product". Using that example, it might be hard to justify giving up a well paying job with a stable company just because they released a crappy java application.

The reality is that there are many concerns when evaluating one's job: friends at work, social setting, management (direct and upper), money, benefits, location, product, job title, company "coolness" (thinking back when I thought I was cool because I worked at the buckle), and so many other intangibles. There is too much to try to break it down... this is really one of those things that even I, as a self-proclaimed lover of any type of systematic process, have learned is judged best by gut.

If you have been dreading a major portion of your job for more than 2 months, then it's time to move on.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[0123456]

Friend, that is SO not true. Money has an interesting effect on people. The more you have the more you want. When I was in my 20s, I figured out that to have all I wanted in life I could do with $25K a year.

I don't know anyone in an ordinary, everyday job who'd be working for their employer a year after they received a $1,000,000 bonus.

Do you really think you do?

That's like those weird people who win the lottery but continue working as a toilet cleaner.

OK, there are some parts of the world where a million dollars won't even buy you a decent house, but in most of it, that's life-changing money. $100,000 a year is life-changing money if you're earning $10,000 a year. $110,000 a year is not life-changing money if you're earning $100,000 a year. Whoopee, you buy a Lexus rather than a Toyota.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[Quirkz]

One million? Even ignoring taxes, I'd still be working. My retirement goal is in the $3m to $5m range, $1m probably isn't nearly enough to last me for 40-60 years. Now, it would definitely speed up the retirement plan by quite a bit, that's for sure.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[gnasher719]

I've heard a CEO say exactly this in response to questions from an employee about bonuses and stock compensation.

He should realise that money isn't what motivates a developer to do good work. But money is what motivates a good developer to work for _his_ company and not the competitor.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[femtobyte]

Out of graduate school, and still get nightmares about high-school tests --- and I never even came anywhere near flunking a test in high-school; I had no rational reason to worry even back then. I think this shows how psychologically traumatic major portions of our educational system are. Testing in the school environment is emphasized to the point of crippling fear for nearly everyone who's been through the system --- this can't be the healthy and right way to do things. But, since everyone has been through the same trauma, it just seems like the normal and correct way to raise the next generation.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[Mike Buddha]

I've taken interesting jobs that don't pay well in the past (ie not the going rate) and even though I've enjoyed those jobs, I find that eventually I will become resentful. I don't want to, but when you see other people in the same market making substantially more than you it's hard not to. Nowadays, I look at the salary surveys and ask for the median for the position and experience. No more, no less, and I explain to the interviewer this is why I'm asking what I'm asking. So far, this approach has been received positively by interviewers and hasn't seemed to lose any job offers for me.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[Quirkz]

I still get those, too, after about the same duration. I think it hasn't helped recently that I've signed up for too many Coursera classes, and in several cases I've either had life come up or simply forgot to visit for a while, and then realized I missed too many items to get the certification.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[KingOfBLASH]

Well, sort of.

I once had a job that paid twice what I make in my current job. It was so horrible (I was on call 24 hours a day) I referred to it as "selling my soul" when people asked me what I did. I got the big raise because I told them I was quitting, and I literally was the only one who could (or would) do the work.

I ended up quitting and finding a job with more reasonable hours that let me come home and actually be happy.

Money is a funny thing.

If you make too little of it, you'll be unhappy. Even if the job is nice, if you are underpaid enough, you'll be miserable.

But, on the flip side, just throwing money at people will not make them happy. If my old boss had addressed some of the quality of life issues like getting called on to do work at midnight on a friday night, I might have enjoyed the job and stayed. There was no real reason I needed to field calls at midnight except upper management in a different time zone wanted to be able to wait until the end of their day to give me a call.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[KingOfBLASH]

It's not really deceitful. It was never the employees choice on what to spend the budget on. And so long as you agree to a fair wage with him or her, if you are spending an extra 10% on perks, it's just something nice. After all, many companies underpay and don't give any perks!

Re:Dreaming of code?

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

I'm still not sure exactly how I feel about it...on the one hand, it's deceitful that this is being done without employees realizing it. On the other hand, it's making them more happy in their jobs.

The first question this brings to mind is whether there is any need for the deceit. In my experience, developers almost always have a lot of respect for colleagues who do good work, which makes sense for reasons both of fairness and of self-interest as the person who might have to maintain that code later. I wouldn't be surprised if they also respected openly setting aside a modest pot to reward people who brought home a big project or who took one for the team sorting out something messy that no-one else wanted to go near, though I suspect it would have to be both very transparent and as objective as possible given the tendency to judge compensation against peers. I don't know what any research says on this point, but it would be interesting to read if anyone's got citations.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[Darinbob]

And "equity" may be a huge motivator to some people but it is disliked by others. Ie, it's funny money, no real value unless you wait and are lucky. So instead of getting a $1000 bonus for good performance, you get $1000 of RSUs that have to vest over several years before you can actually sell and use it (if you can sell it and aren't in a lockout period). A coworker who stopped as a contractor and became a full time employee was furious when he found that the "promise" of a substantial bonus turned out to be in unvested stock.

What I want: less hassle, less commute, more respect, no funny games.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[sandytaru]

That's all? $50K/year should be closer to $1500 a paycheck, even after a 6% 401(k) deduction. Now, once healthcare is taken out, it might drop down to $1200 a paycheck - if you're paid twice a month.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[Anonymous Coward]

Right. A lifestyle changing amount of money always works. That makes it relative. If you are getting paid 140k a year and they give you a 1k bonus for pulling 60 hour weeks for two months, fuck that. If you actually believe in what you are doing, then it matters less. People risks their lives over belief. But people are not stupid and getting them to believe in something is a very difficult thing.

I've worked on a team that 'battled' the grey and counterfeit markets with SEO and monitoring tools. We had a mission. Everyone believed. We did allot of cool shit and spent the extra time needed to do it - without being asked. I'm 15 years into my career now and have only seen this once. I don't expect to see it again.

So yes, some amount of money that actually changes something, will work.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[Hognoxious]

What kind of coder sleeps at night?

Re:Dreaming of code?

[TitusC3v5]

While I'm happy to hear I'm not the only person who occasionally has that dream...I'm not happy to hear that it's probably not going to go away anytime soon.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[Khashishi]

Is that like Maslow's hierarchy of greed?

Re:Dreaming of code?

[pooh666]

Proven? Reference please or shut the hell up.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[Dodgy G33za]

That is the way to stay on the treadmill for life. Which is where they want you.

As an IT contractor/consultant I have earned good money at times, but rather than buying sports cars or a massive house I have spent what I needed to be comfortable and invested the rest. As a result I now only work about 30% of the year and I am still under 50.

Not bragging or gloating, just pointing out that expanding your spending every time you get a raise is not a recipe for a comfortable life in an uncertain world.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[pooh666]

That is the difference between the wife being able to stay home with the kids or not, in an expensive market. MASSIVE difference.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[mcl630]

I have that dream as well... 18 years after graduating.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[Dodgy G33za]

but it's often just as important or even more so that employees receive genuine compliments from peers and managers when they deserve them.

Depends on the person. I prefer just to get on with the job, and I know that quite a few other people are like me. Pay me well and let me get on with it with no bullshit.

That others need feeding compliments every five minutes is why I chose not to stray too far into management.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[Dodgy G33za]

30 years for me and still having them ones.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[genner]

me dreaming of sitting at a desk coding, but the actual visuals are of Vim and nothing else.

Ah, so obviously it was a nightmare ;)

No need to turn this into a Vim vs Emacs debate.

Yes...yes there is.
....at least we can all agree either one is better than visual studio.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[curunir]

The deceit is in how it's presented to employees. If I'm an employee and I get an award, I feel special/appreciated. But if I know that there's a pot set aside for each manager and it's his/her job to give it to the team each quarter, the specialness goes away. Now I start to count my awards to ensure that I get 10% of my salary in awards each quarter.

By revealing the program, it stops feeling like an extra perk given for valuable work and starts feeling more like something you're entitled to and something that, if you don't get it, is a negative commentary on performance. It would be just like your bonus...when you don't get it, you feel a sense that you've lost something and the high you get from getting it is somewhat lessened by the fact that you expected to get it.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[egcagrac0]

Actually, that's (proven) not true. Money only works up to a (surprisingly low) point.

For me - and many others - that point is about 4x my current salary. It will certainly be less important beyond about 2x current, and I can foresee a Johnny Paycheck moment should the stress even marginally increase.

Until that point is reached, money is still a reasonably motivating factor.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[coolsnowmen]

I agree, but I put it like this. 1 Million is enough for me to retire* 10-20 years earlier.

*retire= take a pay cut for the job that I like better, as opposed to the job I have because it is the best choice for career advancement and I want to be able to send my kid to collage which I don't really know how much is going to cost.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[MickLinux]

Apple Machine code? My memory is telling me the first is a single byte instruction, the second is a jump...

Re:Dreaming of code?

[Jartan]

That's only true for the miniscule amounts they'd actually consider. Companies exist to pay employees less than they're actually worth.

Corruption at the top has made meaningful salaries impossible. So yes most people would rather enjoy their job. Start talking real extra money and they'll quickly change their tune.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[psithurism]

Whoah hoah, rich guy! Your welcome to save up whatever amounts you want, but the question really is: if you had what you currently consider to be plenty of money (in your case 5m), would you still be working, or would you put that in your newly created 'jet fund' and continue slaving away?

One million?

$1mil invested to grow at 5% per year would give me (and most of the US population) more than my after tax and 401k subtracted salary. I would retire immediately unless you can find me something more fun than drinking margaritas on the beach, which in my case would not be cleaning toilets.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[ranton]

The difference between $100,000 a year and $200,000 a year isn't really that much, particuarly when you consider how much disappears in tax.

To quote another poster, that is SO not true. But not because of keeping up with the Joneses, or greed, but because there is a very apparent difference between $100k and $200k.

It is the difference between being able to have an upper middle class lifestyle with a single breadwinner, or needing two earners. It is the difference between good schools, and the great schools where half of your kid's friends are going to Ivy league schools. It is the difference between still making sacrifices in your budget, and simply having everything that a middle class person would want (two weeks of traveling per year, a new car every five years, a 3500+ sq ft house, saving $100k per kid for college, etc). Someone with a $100k salary can still get any of the things I mentioned, but someone with $200k can get it without sacrificing any of the others.

As someone with a family income in between these two figures, I can tell you that every extra $10k per year makes a pretty big difference in our budget.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[MickLinux]

Okay, now I know. Maybe it is apple code; that C0 reminds me of a return, too. But no, it now appears that someone didn't get paid for their work because of Hollywood Accounting.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[SolitaryMan]

Of course everybody wants more money. The point is -- and this is what important for employer -- are you willing to work harder for it? If your salary is 100K are you going to work twice as hard for 200K? Unlikely, but the employer would have to pay you twice as much.

Alternatively, will you drop your job near your house that provides meals, transportation, etc. that pays 100K in cash for the one far from your place that provides none of the perks, but pays 150K? Also not a given.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[jez9999]

On top of that, it's a relative measure, as employees are comparing with their peers at their current job

You obviously live in the US. I've received a pretty hostile reaction here in the UK any time I've ever tried to even suggest asking how much someone else at my company earns.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[datavirtue]

CEOs should be earning what they do....evidence, they are earning that much. Grow up.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[Gorobei]

It goes way eventually. Then you join senior senior management and you will have the airport dream and the moving to a new house dream.

Welcome to eternal nightmares.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[datavirtue]

I would definitely keep working if I obtained 1 mil somehow. I'm grown-up enough to not take comfort in such an amount. It is just money. I need secure assets that keep making money. Besides, I would spend or invest it somehow and need more.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[Quirkz]

I agree, but I put it like this. 1 Million is enough for me to retire* 10-20 years earlier.

Absolutely. I said as much myself.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Actually, I live in the UK too. While direct discussions of salary are certainly taboo in many places, others are more open.

Also, sometimes the ones that aren't intentionally open in culture give things away inadvertently. It was fascinating watching the aftermath of someone in HR accidentally e-mailing a spreadsheet showing an entire organisation's workforce complete with various sensitive information and internal scales to everyone in that organisation.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[Quirkz]

I don't *feel* particularly rich, but the household income is over $50k, so maybe by some definitions I am. Lifestyle expands to meet the income, almost inevitably.

I understand is a median household income is around 50k currently. 5% of 1m is 50k, so in theory that's adequate now for at least half of all households. Thing is, I'm still in my 30s, and my grandparents are still kicking around in their 90s, so I'm hoping (and planning for) retirement to last me that long. If I retired now, I'd have to live on investments for 60 years, and inflation is going to demolish that 50k over half a century. That's why 1m wouldn't be enough to quit tomorrow.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[dreamchaser]

Adjusted for inflation $1mil is barely enough to retire if you plan on living off of an annuity based on accrued interest. It certainly wouldn't sustain a standard of living that I'd want for the next 40 or so years that I'll probably be alive. The poster who said $3-$5mil was right on target for maintaining a middle/upper middle class standard of living while allowing for the future rise in costs. Could it be done on $1mil? Sure, you could probably live modestly for 40 years or so on that. You'd have a cozy, tiny place and adequate if uninspiring food. Most people want at least a little more than that.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[Evil Pete]

Dan Ariely. He talked about this at one point. What people want is not what management thinks.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[k8to]

Hiding the information is a management error.

Programmers want and appreciate transparency for its own sake and will be happier still with the thank you bosues AND clearly understanding what's going on.

However if the engingeers are a small minority of employees, that might no work because that kind of transparency does not work for all employee types.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[toddestan]

Actually, if you're plan involves not working for a living, you have a bit more options as you don't have to live close to your job. I would probably find a cheap, modest place out in the country, and pay cash.for it. Now your housing costs basically come down to property taxes which should be low, and upkeep. Upkeep should be relatively cheap (money wise) since I'd have an abundance of time so I wouldn't have to pay someone else to do repairs for me. Heck, growing your own food would be an option to further reduce the costs of living (whether or not fruits, nuts, and vegetables would be uninspiring as food goes would be a matter of opinion, I suppose).

Re:Dreaming of code?

[mortonda]

Oh man, I'm not the only one with that nightmare? Ha, and I didn't even finish college, I left early to start my own business. What should I care anyway? But I still get those nightmares. What's that math book under the bed? OH NOES!

Re:Dreaming of code?

[petsounds]

That really depends on whether materialism drives your life or not. My only purpose for money, other than to sustain a moderate lifestyle (place to live in a low-crime area, healthy food to eat, a nice bottle of bourbon/wine/beer now and then), is to give me enough financial independence to concentrate on projects which matter to me, but are not likely to generate revenue. My aspirations run higher than my current net worth, but they cap out much lower than someone who finds happiness in life through the acquisition of things.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[GodfatherofSoul]

And my point is everyone's "aspirations run higher than [their] net worth." You like hiking? Fine, the local park is cool when you make $30K a year. Get a raise to $60 and now the park looks boring. Now you want to take a trip to hike in Colorado. You get a raise to $100K? Even better, now you can take that trip to the Amazon you always wanted to hike the rain forest. You make $200K+, well now you travel the world hiking in all sorts of remote and exotic locations!

This is HOW materialism gets you. It's not just about shiny baubles, champagne and Bentleys like some hip hop mogul.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[q.kontinuum]

For motivation while working on one position, this may be true, but salary and bonus are a high motivation to switch to another employer altogether.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[rastos1]

Money only works up to a (surprisingly low) point.

I'm volunteering to test this theory. Where do I sign up?

Re:Dreaming of code?

[ultranova]

Money has an interesting effect on people. The more you have the more you want.

No. This is true for some people, but not most. Most will start looking for other things - family, respect, self-actualization, etc. - once their basic needs are secure. I suspect this is one of the reasons why society is so dysfunctional: the people who rise to the top are those with a broken motivational system which causes them to never stop wanting more money and power (or whatever it is they fixated on).

Re:Dreaming of code?

[ultranova]

That others need feeding compliments every five minutes

Not necessarily compliments, but confirmations that they're in good standing with the herd. If someone needs compliments constantly then either they have serious mental issues, or their actual need is for (job) security which is poorly addressed by compliments, thus the need for constant re-validation.

Maybe such people could be rewarded by legally binding extra days for period of notice for good work? It costs nothing, and would send a clear message that they're valued while simultaneously reducing a source of anxiety.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[Hognoxious]

I want to be able to send my kid to collage

You hope they make the cut and stick with it?

Re:Dreaming of code?

[KingOfBLASH]

Imagine you got paid $200,000/yr to mop the floors. Would you get pissed every time somebody spilled some coffee? Probably not, because you knew you got paid well to mop floors. Well, most jobs are like that, especially when it comes to your relationship with management.

Yes, but what if the $200,000 was contingent on you not leaving work unless you were going home to sleep, and you could get woken up in the middle of the night and called back in? And what if, because you can't go home to cook you just get fatter and fatter because you end up needing to get fast food or to order in?

Re:Dreaming of code?

[KingOfBLASH]

Well I do sort of understand this but I do think the issue is the way it's presented.

A lot of companies set aside budgets for things like "Team Building." I don't find it strange that you have something similar I do find the distribution method strange. I would expect that, rather than saying we pay 10% extra per employee, they would spend it on group things (like parties or team building events) or award people who have gone above and beyond (and this may be

Also, do you pay taxes on the 10%? If not, then it's not really a salary and you shouldn't have the expectation that you HAVE to have it.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[easyTree]

The whole idea stinks of a special-interest-group-funded study to show that their interests should be respected.

Seriously? Maybe I'm the one-in-a-million case that doesn't follow the flock but the single and only reason I work is FOR THE MONEY. No amount of spin from people with larger foreheads than I will convince me otherwise :D

All the validation, satisfaction at mastering a subject, etc... etc.. can be generated in my own time in a manner that suits ME. Neither employees nor employers should kid themselves - this isn't going to fly.

Please try harder.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[easyTree]

Yes...yes there is. ....at least we can all agree either one is better than visual studio.

var modernRequirements = getModernDevelopmentRequirementsVector ();
var mostRelevant = (
        from editor in new [] { vim, emacs, visualStudio }
        let features = getFeaturesVector (editor)
        let relevance = modernRequirements - features
        orderby relevance
        select editor
).First();

Console.WriteLine (mostRelevant != visualStudio ? "Oui" : "Non");

Re: Dreaming of code?

[IDreamInCode]

I dream in code.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[Bengie]

In college, nearly every teacher that I had gave you until the end of the day to hand in, but at least the end of the class. Some of them went so far as "end of this semester". I was having a rough patch in my life and one teacher told me I had until the beginning of the NEXT semester, because that's the absolute deadline he had to fill in my grade.

Re: Dreaming of code?

[SteveO'Sullivan]

I get the picture....

Re: Dreaming of code?

[leslie.satenstein]

In the construction trade you have architects and carpenters A good carpenter doesn't necessarily make a good designer and vice-versa. But a craftsman is not able to do a sloppy job. Doing so is to lower his self estime. He takes on a job that his experience tells him what it will take, and commits to it. If he takes a bit longer, that's the break Ohh! Sorry, I thought I was writing about a programmer. My mistake. A programmer is not a craftsman.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[Stormy Dragon]

On a similar note, I'm surprised how long it takes, following a move, for the new place I'm living to start showing up as "home" in my dreams. I've lived in my current home for almost 6 years now, and I've never had a dream where I'm here. For some reason my subconscious still hasn't accepted that this is really where I live.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[curunir]

You pay taxes if you take the award in cash. If you take the award in gift cards, the amount is grossed up.

FWIW, we still have budget for team building events. The 10% reserve is strictly an individual compensation fund.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[minstrelmike]

is it _not_ deceit; it is budgeting for performance.
If you truly are a personal outlier and knowing the company actually budgets money for bonuses actually diminishes your enjoyment, well that means squat as far as dealing with the standard average human behavior. Saying your personal individual behavior and thought pattern should replace normal human behavior is how and why morality _always_ misses the mark.

I always knew that management has a budget for everything they spend.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[q.kontinuum]

Suit yourself :-) I spend 40h a week on my job, and if someone proposes a job doubling my salary, I will take that offer. But while I'm in this office, my performance depends heavily on feeling comfortable in my current environment. If you find all the time you need to master new subjects in your spare time, good for you. My spare time is mainly for my family, and I'm very happy I find enough challenges in my job so I don't need extensive hobbies for that.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[anyGould]

Of course everybody wants more money. The point is -- and this is what important for employer -- are you willing to work harder for it?

More honest point - can your employer get someone else to do it for cheaper? Or can they get *you* to do it for cheaper.

The only truth I've seen from that statement is that generally people don't jump ship just for money. Something *else* gets their back up, they start looking around, and then they find out that they could make better money elsewhere. But if I had a dollar for every time a co-worker stopped by for lunch and said their new job was "better hours, better pay, and less bullshit", I wouldn't need to work either.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[anyGould]

To the GP - think of it this way: the boss is *saying* you make $X per year, and then gives you 10% as a bonus at the end of the year as a "good job".

The boss was *actually* always planning to hand out that 10% - they budget it as salary (effectively). They just make a big production out of giving it to you to make you feel special. (Or alternately, if they need to spruce up their margins in December, they can "have a bad year" and cut back that number).

Re:Dreaming of code?

[longbot]

That would be my job, except that it was 30k per year, not 200k.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[n7ytd]

I have dreams about past jobs where I wasn't 100% sure if leaving was the right decision. Coulda/woulda/shoulda haunts my dreams.

Re:Dreaming of code?

[gamemank]

Everything you just listed, except the "single breadwinner", IS "keeping up with the Joneses."

What about me?

[xevioso]

I'm 40. I love what I do, I love building websites and I love doing front-end development. Do I live and breathe it? No. I go to work, work on great sites, and then go home for the day and enjoy my evening doing non-coding things.

Re:What about me?

[lgw]

I'd agree that's normal. What's more, this "passionate" is without a doubt a code for "exploitable".

Here's why: for various cultural reasons, self-taught geeks who code from the love of coding are a far higher percentage of American-born coders, than of e.g. India or China, simply because "software developer" has a far higher social status (and relative pay) in other countries, such that parents push their children to become developers there in the way that some American children are pushed to become doctors or lawyers. Therefore, if you actually filtered on "loves to code" instead of "good at coding", you'd be illegally discriminating against a protected class, in a way that's not-at-all subtle to anyone who spends time on hiring in the field.

The goal of this "passionate" business isn't crypto-racism (it would be too obvious, if nothing else), but simply trying to find people who are not only good, but willing to work far longer than a professional work week at management insistence, and those qualities can be found in young and/or desperate people from anywhere.

Re:What about me?

[Minwee]

I'm 40 --

Thank you, we've heard enough. Next applicant please.

Re:What about me?

[datavirtue]

This is major bullshit. I bought into that /. ageism paranoia until I got on my first dev team (I used to be in infrastructure...yuck)...most of the people are over 40...just had a guy retire from the dev team. This is at a very young, small company with high dev standards.

Re:What about me?

[j35ter]

40 years here! Switched companies last month!

Re:What about me?

[JoeMerchant]

Depends on where you go, I've seen age-ism cut all four ways, for and against me, in my 20s and in my 40s.

Re:What about me?

[FatLittleMonkey]

The last time I was "passionate" about a job, they called me argumentative and difficult to work with, and insisted that I need to be a "team player". Make up your fucking minds. Do you want me to care, to really care? Or do you want me to just shut up and do the job? Because you can't have both.

Re:What about me?

[Mister Liberty]

Building websites is not programming. Sorry.

Re:What about me?

[Opportunist]

This. A billion times THIS.

Am I enthusiastic about code? Well, I can be. If, and only if, the code is interesting and the project feels like it's a good investment of my time. Doing jobs that have a good chance to result in awesome accomplishments or in something where you can with pride point to and say "I built that" sure makes it easy to be enthusiastic.

But jobs where you simply KNOW halfway through that it will never see the light of the day and is just not being abandoned because some bigwig's nephew is getting a cut from it or because some big shot's job hangs on its existence and he just wants to ride it for as long as he can, it's not easy to be enthusiastic and passionate about it.

So if you want me to be passionate about my work, gimme a reason to be!

Re:What about me?

[master_kaos]

Hey 21st century is calling. The WWW is no longer full of geocities/angel fire/myspace/other generic WYSIWYG webpage builders. Do you honestly think facebook is a bunch of html pages?

Re:What about me?

[Sperbels]

They want you to care...and obey. Basically, you should love doing what your betters order you to do.

Re:What about me?

[Sperbels]

When was the last time you built a website? 1996? Things are a lot different now.

Re:What about me?

[RightSaidFred99]

Lol. You sound..knowledgeable brohan.

Re:What about me?

[hazah]

I'm curious... how would YOU build one then? Real question.

Re:What about me?

[mean revision]

I give my work a solid 30%, sometimes up to 40% and for rare days up to 50%, but those levels aren't sustainable. Plus I freaking hate it. I'm not going to apologize for failing to devote all of my waking (and sleeping) hours to my job. You'll get a highly qualified, skilled coder for about 8 hours and after that, I'm on my own. It's none of my client's damn business what I do, but I'll guarantee that it's not going to be related to whatever project they hired me for.

Re:What about me?

[AnontheDestroyer]

I'm 40 --

Thank you, we've heard enough. Next applicant please.

You mean you're not hiring Perl or PHP developers?

Re:What about me?

[Aighearach]

No, you're allowed to discriminate on random traits or interests, even if different numbers of people in different countries share those interests.

It is only illegal if you're using it as a proxy to discriminate against actual applicants of a protected class.

Re:What about me?

[Cederic]

Passion doesn't excuse acting like a cunt. It's possible to be passionate with being argumentative or difficult to work with. In fact, it's preferable.

Do you want me to care, to really care? Or do you want me to just shut up and do the job? Because you can't have both.

I can, and I'll look for it in the next candidate.

Re:What about me?

[AnontheDestroyer]

Do you make more than ~$65k? Did you ever have aspirations to do so? If not, you may, in fact, avoid ageism.

Re:What about me?

[Darinbob]

The problem is that the vast majority of programming jobs don't do a lot of programming. Most of it is bug fixing obscure stuff written by someone no longer at the company, documenting it all, coordinating with testers, lots and lots of meetings, etc. It is relatively rare to just sit down and start coding. When I work on my own private projects at home then that's fun, when it's at work it is sometimes only one day a month. There are things I'd love to do at work but I can't because those activities aren't a priority, don't earn revenue, doesn't solve a problem that needs fixing, etc.

It's really hard to have passion when the code you are working on is not a topic you are really passionate about. When I worked on business software I was bored. When I worked on medical devices though I loved it. When I worked on Windows I was bored and frustrated. When I worked on an embedded system I was interested.

As far as what companies what, passion should not be it. They generally want fast coders, lots of checkins (even checkins to fix checkins, since that makes you artificually seem productive), and working on high profile fixes and features. Whereas the person who wants to create good code with high quality often seems like the unproductive person in the team. Companies also seem to think "passion" means so caught up in your work that you're still there at 10pm because you lost track of time, then go home and ignore the family so you can keep working to 2am.

Re:What about me?

[Salgat]

Hiring older folk is awesome because you know they aint ever leaving because who else would hire their old ass? (in all seriousness, older folk do tend to stay with the company longer, which is an enormous benefit)

Re:What about me?

[Darinbob]

It depends on the type of work and company. Ie, I tend to see younger people in IT groups. Programmers using C/C++ or embedded systems tend towards older workers, whereas those on UIs for some reason tend to be younger. Some of it makes sense; people with lots of experience with older languages tend to be older people, people with experience in newer languages tend to be younger. Common jobs tend to be younger since the job pool is so large that companies will naturally find enough younger/cheaper people who are above average; jobs that require more specialization tend to be older because the number of applicants are smaller and you have to suck it up and pay more to get a qualified person.

Re:What about me?

[Darinbob]

I love being a cog in the machine!

Re:What about me?

[technomom]

Bwahahahaha!

Not so much. Got my best job offers at 45 and 48, took 'em both! There are a lot of companies that pay big money for experienced programmers, especially ones that can point to actual products they had a hand in.

But if it makes you feel better to believe that, go ahead.

Re:What about me?

[Dodgy G33za]

That's only because perception of time changes as you age. They think that they have only been there for a few days and bang, retirement hits them.

Re:What about me?

[Dodgy G33za]

I think I would start with type for a bit and finish up with

Re:What about me?

[zenasprime]

If only I had the points to spend! Cheers!

Re:What about me?

[Dodgy G33za]

Hmm. That post kinda lost its meaning when /. stripped out the HTML start and end tags.

Re:What about me?

[zenasprime]

I don't care if someone acts like a "cunt" or is "argumentative" if they make valid points and can get me to stop being a stubborn idiot who's going to screw shit up. I'd rather that the job got done right, despite my own fail-able self. Fight me when I'm wrong or I don't want you on my team.

Re:What about me?

[Cederic]

There's, "you fuckwit, you've totally cocked that up" and there's "there are better ways to do that, would you like me to show you?"

I want teams that have strong enough relationships to do both of those without being argumentative or acting like a cunt. Building relationships, establishing credibility and demonstrating trust are all important and have fuck all to do with whether you're right or not.

Re:What about me?

[FatLittleMonkey]

Note how the second option precludes the possibility that it's a bad plan. Which was my point. They don't want someone with an opinion, they want a servant.

Re:What about me?

[lgw]

For a large company, if the result of your hiring criteria, company-wide, shows a racial bias, you're asking for the "opportunity" to prove your innocence. At my current large company we're not supposed to put anything in the interview feedback unless it's both on the short list of approved criteria and we can describe specifics from the interview to back it up. Bit of a pain, really.

Small companies are a different world of course, and I've worked at a couple where the racism was pretty blatant (once for and once against my race - wasn't keen to stay at either).

Re:What about me?

[FatLittleMonkey]

Passion doesn't excuse acting like a cunt.

It's amazing how people have projected project so much onto my comment.

It's possible to be passionate with being argumentative

I disagree. "Passion" isn't just the positive, it's also the negative. A "passionate relationship", for example, isn't just wild sex, it's also the wild arguments. Passion is about strong emotions. Good and bad.

A good manager knows how to steer passion into creativity. A bad manager doesn't, and usually ends up surrounded by passionless drones who do what they are told, no matter how stupid/wasteful/pointless, and allow bad decisions to play out to disaster.

I've watched, from outside, as a good manager steered an angry staffer into first ranting with the manager about the problem (by showing them the actual reason for the stupid/wasteful process), and then the rant culminating in the staffer solving the problem. Suddenly, "I can't believe they are so stupid! Why don't they just... [solution]?!" The rant was part of them sorting through what they knew, letting intuition and creativity play while their consciousness was distracted by the rant. And then the staffer designed the whole new system that afternoon, happily working away like a madman (passionately, you might say; the workplace equivalent of make-up sex.)

I'm guessing Zenasprime is that type of person, able to work with passionate people. You, perhaps, are not.

Re:What about me?

[socode]

40 double D.

Re:What about me?

[14erCleaner]

I suspect the passion/dream/obsession/whatever stuff is just another subtle way of accomplishing age discrimination. After all, most people calm down sometime in their 20's or 30's - you know, about the time they start getting expensive to employ.

Re:What about me?

[Bengie]

Pretty much this. Every year my review has a question of what I like most about my job, and every year I say that I love knowing my work helps people and many times I even get to see or hear back about how much of a difference it makes.

Re:What about me?

[Aighearach]

Right, but you ignore the other situation, where there is no racism but all the qualified applicants are from the same demographics group.

Companies get into trouble, and then whine about having to "prove their innocence" because, as you point out, some companies really are racist. And if they have arbitrary requirements that are unrelated to the job duties that result in them rejecting otherwise qualified people from certain protected groups, then they're likely going to have it proven that they were using it as an illegal proxy to discriminate.

If on the other hand they're not racist and they try to hire inclusively, then they'll be able to demonstrate that. It may be that certain demographics are more likely to claim that they are "passionate" about their job than others. But it would be very difficult to make a discrimination claim on that basis, unless both a disproportionate otherwise-qualified number of applicants from a certain protected group were rejected, and also that they did not take any other steps to hire inclusively. For example, if a lower percentage Indian applicants meet a "loves to code" criteria, you could mitigate that by doing extra advertising on job boards or in neighborhoods with a high percent of Indian people.

Re:What about me?

[FatLittleMonkey]

projected project

Dumbed dumb.

The eight hour workday is too short

[Anonymous Coward]

If you don't eat sleep and breathe their corporate paradigm at all times you're not the person they're looking for. They don't want you to forget that they own you, even when you're not physically at the office: your personal work belongs to them, your future employment opportunities (non-compete) belong to them, your personal activities (social media et al.) belong to them... And they wonder why people get disgruntled.

Re:The eight hour workday is too short

[Coffeesloth]

I wish I could moderate your comment up. I work for a company that doesn't officially have this policy but sometimes at the lower management levels this seems to be the mentality.

Re:The eight hour workday is too short

[JoeMerchant]

Monster.com can be your very good friend...

Re:The eight hour workday is too short

[tompaulco]

Are the Accounts Payable people passionate about writing checks? Are the secretaries passionate about answering the phone? Are the Helpdesk people passionate about resettiing passwords? If so, then I guess they should required the programmers to be passionate about programming.

Re:The eight hour workday is too short

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, pretty much. The lowly geek caste should be grateful, that his most excellent MBA owners have seen fit to let him slave away for 60 hours a week to earn a crust of bread. After all, that's all they really want to do, if they wanted wealth, influence, or respect they would have opted for a more respect-worthy career.

Re:The eight hour workday is too short

[Cederic]

Exactly. Making the passionate programmers passionate about the company is usually easy: give them a direct way to see how the code they're writing benefits the external customers, the internal users, the shareholders, the people around them.

Happy people are very good at keeping themselves happy, so you just need to keep the bullshit out of their way and make it easy for them to share their joy.

Re:The eight hour workday is too short

[David_W]

Monster.com can be your very good friend...

The corporate masters of Slashdot would like to remind you that Dice.com can be an even better friend.

Strong and Barely Controllable Emotion

[SirLurksAlot]

I feel this way about the current codebase I'm working on right now, but they only give me the nerf-type of weapons, so no one needs to worry.

Re:Strong and Barely Controllable Emotion

[tompaulco]

Although I disagree that every programmer has to be passionate about programming, I would have to say that I most definitely am. In fact, I am so passionate that it makes me ill to see the hideous inefficiency of some of the past programs written at my company. Even now, they continue to not learn from their mistakes and have even gone through efforts to rewrite well written code in a less efficient manner and which does not integrate to the system and is not scalable.

I feel you.

[Rinikusu]

I like software development. But when I go home, I do other things than write more code (write/record music, write/shoot/direct/edit short films, cook foods, breed fish, exercise/martial arts, spend time with my SO, etc). Apparently, to some developers, this means I don't take my job seriously and I shouldn't be in the industry because I'm not spending every moment living and breathing code. I don't even own a github. And frankly, if that's the expectation, I'd rather not work in that sort of environment.

Re:I feel you.

[Bob the Super Hamste]

Apparently, to some developers, this means I don't take my job seriously and I shouldn't be in the industry because I'm not spending every moment living and breathing code.

Probably not to other developers but to wothless HR people yes.

Re:I feel you.

[amiga3D]

I've had projects at work that I felt passionately about. I would think about and study up on things I was working on trying to get ideas or troubleshoot. I actually miss that feeling but they brought in a new "lean" system and now I could care less. I think management has to build an environement to foster that kind of feeling and most of the time they actually stamp it out.

Re:I feel you.

[rlwhite]

These ads make me feel this way too. To me, leaving coding at my job and doing other things in my off time is very important to avoid burn-out. Pursuing something else I'm passionate about is refreshing, and being knowledgeable in other subjects should further a programmer's career because programming is ultimately about codifying knowledge. This career field is fundamentally cross-disciplinary.

Re:I feel you.

[jythie]

Even to other developers, when I was job hunting a significant number of them held up hobby programming as a metric for how good a fit you would be. If were not involved in your own projects it was a sign that you didn't care or would not keep up with new trends or otherwise just not be 'enthusiastic'. Non-programming hobbies were sometimes acceptable, but only if they were robotics or something just barely one-off.

Re:I feel you.

[ranton]

Apparently, to some developers, this means I don't take my job seriously and I shouldn't be in the industry because I'm not spending every moment living and breathing code

Similar to how arguing on the extremes in politics is rarely productive, neither is arguing on the extremes in work / life balance. My opinion is that the type of developers who deserve top salaries and positions are the ones who on average spend at least 200 hours per year of their free time on learning new skills. I have never known a developer who was able to stay current in their skills with only on the job training. I have known some who found niches they worked in for a couple decades that required no outside training, but they are the ones in their 50s wondering why they can't find work.

But that said, 200 hours per year is not a great level of devotion. It is 4 hours per week. That leaves plenty of time for other hobbies and spending time with family. Anyone claiming that you need to spend 20 hours per week doing software development outside of work is at an extreme that is easy to argue against, but there is a nugget of truth in the belief that having some desire to learn outside of work is necessary. There are plenty of professions where the industry does not change very fast, but IT is not one of them.

Re:I feel you.

[Anonymous Coward]

Non-programming hobbies were sometimes acceptable, but only if they were robotics or something just barely one-off.

I feel your pain. I usually get quite the horrified reaction when I state I like philosophy...that is until we require a frank discussion on NULLs or formal logic.

Re:I feel you.

[JoeMerchant]

Some jobs maybe not, but experience from my outside interests have proven highly valuable to my "day job" on many occasions, and has also helped me land new jobs on occasion.

If you're 19 years old and didn't start coding until you were 17, sure - live, breathe, sleep and dream code - you need to to get up to speed. If you like that lifestyle, I think EA is still running their revolving door....

Re:I feel you.

[omtinez]

I like software development. But when I go home, I do other things than write more code (write/record music, write/shoot/direct/edit short films, cook foods, breed fish, exercise/martial arts, spend time with my OS (aka Her), etc). Apparently, to some developers, this means I don't take my job seriously and I shouldn't be in the industry because I'm not spending every moment living and breathing code. I don't even own a github. And frankly, if that's the expectation, I'd rather not work in that sort of environment.

FTFY

Re:I feel you.

[Anonymous Coward]

.that is until we require a frank discussion on NULLs or formal logic.

Of all that is holy... you actually stepped through all the logic and formal systems in Hofstadter's _Godel, Escher, Bach_, didn't you?

Re:I feel you.

[mrchaotica]

But that said, 200 hours per year is not a great level of devotion. It is 4 hours per week.

Otherwise known as "your lunch break" if you don't want to actually spend extra time doing it at home.

Re:I feel you.

[master_kaos]

Perhaps but a good company like the one where I work at will let me spend that 4 hours per week on company time . Essentially every Friday afternoon (hey like right now!) I am allowed to browse whatever tech sites I want to learn about technology. The company realizes that not only does this improve my own skills, but I will also discover new technologies, techniques, etc that can enhance our existing/upcoming projects. Do I learn something new every friday? No, but there has also been some gold nuggets that have greatly improved our internal processes and tools

Re:I feel you.

[ranton]

Perhaps but a good company like the one where I work at will let me spend that 4 hours per week on company time .

Well, a good company can handle work/life balance in different ways.

My current employer was very up front that my salary was paying for about 50 hours per week, but it is understood that around 5 of those hours will be spent on my own time working on my own pet projects and/or learning new technologies. Considering it was about a 30% pay raise from my last job, and I spend more than that already on my pet projects, it worked out just fine.

My employer knows how hard it is to find good talent, so they pay well above market rates to get those people who will put in the extra effort so they can be on top of the latest advances but still be billable for at least 40 hours each week. They would have to refuse jobs if our best employees were only billable 30-35 hours per week because we couldn't staff them with people competent enough too keep up our reputation.

That said, about half of our staff is made up of more average employees who do spend time on the job learning skills when new projects need them. They are not paid as well, and their work is more closely monitored.

Re:I feel you.

[pjt33]

...spend time with my SO...

So you get home and log in to Stack Overflow, and you want us to believe that you're not passionate about programming?

Re:I feel you.

[xaxa]

I spend (36 - meetings etc) hours a week writing code, so I generally prefer not to develop software at home. But, occasionally it's satisfying to spend a rainy Sunday evening fiddling with something. I've noticed I'm much more likely to do this if I've had a lot of meetings in the preceeding week, or have recently returned from a holiday.

I do have a Github account (mostly little things I've forked), and the little green chart says I've committed changes on 12 days in the last 12 months.

Re:I feel you.

[cliffjumper222]

This is so true, but I do the inverse! I work as a product manager and generate PowerPoint, Word and emails all day. Then I go home and code Java Plugins for Minecraft. It's fun hobby and a great way to de-stress from business ambiguities and customer interactions.

Re:I feel you.

[rastos1]

On the other hand I'm meeting developers that are dug in in their niche for last 15 years and have no desire to find out what happened in IT in the meantime. They develop windows only software but would be lost in Windows 8 and have no idea how to filter EventLog where their log messages are. The don't care how C98 differs from C++0x or how they could replace their data structures with STL (and halve the code in the process). They join a team that works o client-server software, but don't bother to learn what TCP handhsake is, what IPv6 is, what latency is, or where the f*cking server is. They grab a library for encryption and don't bother to randomize IV. They develop software that does graphics, but have no idea what OpenGL is or what DirectX can do.

Because they are frozen in time. It was good enough 15 years ago, and so it should be good enough now. They are not interested. They don't follow what's happening in IT. And you know what? It works for them. Because 1) management has no clue and 2) when something bad happens, they have "someone" who solves the issue - someone who spends evenings and weekends learning new stuff.

Re:I feel you.

[Bengie]

But IT doesn't change much. Same basic ideas that I read about from security and design still apply from the 80s as much as it does today. The tools change and give you more power to control, but the ideas are still the same.

Maybe they have a problem

[cold fjord]

People will do things for love that they won't for money, including endure abuse, or attempt the impossible.

Re:Maybe they have a problem

[Zontar The Mindless]

I think that comment is quite revealing. Thanks for sharing.

Re:Maybe they have a problem

[cold fjord]

Nothing new there, it was known to the ancients.

“Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. -- John 15:13

Re:Maybe they have a problem

[Khashishi]

People will do other things for money they won't do for love.

Well You Know...

[TemperedAlchemist]

What management actually means by, "We want people who are passionate!" means that they live in a fantasy world where truly passionate people will come work for them for meager pay, lousy benefits, and an average work environment. It's the ultimate delusion of entitlement. Because why should talented people settle for them?

There is good management. But most of the time you see poor management who blame their own inadequate and incompetent leadership abilities on their employees. Many seem to look at subordinates as nothing more than a monkey there to churn out code -- like it's such an inconvenience that they have to deal with actual humans who have like, squishy innards that need nourishment and rest.

Add it to the list...
"Fast paced work environment!" We're understaffed.
"Opportunity for advancement." We have a high turnover rate.
"Flexible hours!" You'll never be able to predict the next week's schedule.

Re:Well You Know...

[oneiros27]

"Flexible hours" can also mean "You know that sign-off you need? They might show up at 2pm, or they might work from home today"

Or it might mean "We're okay with you coming in late so long as you put in 12 hrs each day"

Re:Well You Know...

[RobinH]

"Fast paced work environment!" actually means that we change our specs a lot, even up to the hour before delivery, and we don't want you to complain because we're "fast paced"! :)

Re:Well You Know...

[dkleinsc]

"Fast-paced work environment" actually means "We don't actually make any management decisions about prioritization or scheduling".

That's important, because a company that is understaffed who's trying to hire people is doing the right thing, whereas a company that has stupid management who's trying to hire people is doing the wrong thing. The second company will never be satisfied with the team's performance, because it's always a lot easier to sit in a meeting and say "We should make a ..." than it is to make it.

Re:Well You Know...

[tompaulco]

At my office it is "We're okay with you coming in late so long as you put in 12 hrs each day and show up no later than 8 and leave no earlier than 6."
Seriously, you get no leniency whatsoever if you were up until 4 in the morning working on an unreasonable deadline. If you are not in first thing the next morning, you get a talking to. I've gotten in trouble for not resolving an issue within an hour when it was sent by e-mail at 6 in the morning. I can't leave my phone next to my bed because the binging and bonging goes on all night long. I can't tell the difference between a production down e-mail and one saying my expense report status has changed, so I am supposed to look at my phone every 15 minutes all night long whenever it dings at me.

Re:Well You Know...

[rogoshen1]

it's time for you to find a better job.

Re:Well You Know...

[rk]

Get thee hence to a new job, for verily thy current job sucketh in abundance.

Re:Well You Know...

[Cederic]

The irony is that I don't have 'flexible hours' but today I started with just before 7am, took a three hour break at 9.30, got some serious work done between 12.30 and 4pm then told my manager I was done for the day and have a great weekend.

He knows I'll hit my deadline, which was self-imposed anyway, without compromising the assistance I offer to my team, while pursuing a number of other interests. I get shit done. I enjoy it.

I'm also old enough to know how to work sustainably and avoid burning out.

So my manager is happy, my colleagues are happy, I'm happy, and my cats are very happy because at 4pm I switched off my laptop and played with them for twenty minutes, then let them sleep for a couple of hours before waking them up for some food.

Flexible hours can mean I'm doing a video conference trans-atlantic at 10pm, presenting to a team in Malaysia at 8am or going home at 4.30pm because I feel like avoiding the traffic.

So don't diss flexible hours or flexible working patterns, don't abuse them and find a company that truly understands them. Everybody wins.

Re:Well You Know...

[xaxa]

I hope you get paid a lot more than me, because I got pretty annoyed today that I ended up working four hours too many this week, and will have to make it up next week (I wanted to take this afternoon off, to make up for staying late because I was concentrating on Tuesday, but someone scheduled a meeting).

I'm supposed to be present between 10-12 and 14-15:30, work 36 hours a week, with no more than 8 hours under/over at the end of every month, and can take a day / am / pm off with permission a certain number of times per month. That's proper flexitime :D

Re:Well You Know...

[k6mfw]

gotta find a Dilbert or a xkcd cartoon for your list.

Re: Well You Know...

[DoofusOfDeath]

Quit

8 hours a day

[BisuDagger]

I spend 8 hours a day loving what I code in c++. When I leave work I generally focus on my hobbies like writing news for competitive gaming. If I leave work with a problem unsolved sometimes I'll think it through while I'm driving. Long story short, I love code development at work and couldn't imagine a job without it. That's always been enough for my employers.

Re:8 hours a day

[ThorGod]

Do you know what lawyers do if they spend time thinking about your case? They charge you.

Re:8 hours a day

[NoNonAlphaCharsHere]

A lawyer dies and goes to heaven (hey, it sometimes happens).
At the pearly gates, he's greeted by St. Peter and a huge heavenly choir, singing.
Lawyer says "What's with the big turnout?".
St. Peter says "We've had popes and saints and kings arrive here, but never someone who's 196 years old."
Lawyer says "What are you talking about? I'm 62."
St. Peter says "They must have added up your billing hours instead".

Re:8 hours a day

[jazman_777]

It's been so cold lately that I even saw a lawyer with his hands in his own pockets!

Always looking for passionate programmers

[Dracolytch]

So, when managing, I'm always looking for passionate developers. Here's why:

Where I work, there are no grunts. There are no people who mindlessly grind out code. We're not building yet another website: We're solving hard problems, and we want everyone to contribute. To contribute with value, you need to not stagnate in one technology for half your career. You need to be well-read about software. And while we work very few weekends, sometimes there are longer days (like anywhere).

When I mean I'm looking for a passionate developer, I'm looking for someone who cares about their craft, not just someone who shows up to close bug tickets and collect a paycheck.

Re:Always looking for passionate programmers

[zenasprime]

Yeah but are you willing to pay for that level of commitment?

Re:Always looking for passionate programmers

[mrchaotica]

I'm always looking for passionate developers. Here's why: Where I work, there are no grunts. There are no people who mindlessly grind out code. We're not building yet another website: We're solving hard problems...

But that's what they all say, including the companies just building yet another website.

Not to mention, there are 10 "yet another website" companies for every 1 "solving hard problems" company, and even programmers who start out passionate lose that passion if they end up at one of the former.

Re:Always looking for passionate programmers

[Dracolytch]

I work for an academic non-profit, been there about a year. Happier here then I've been anywhere else in my career.

The salaries are on the low-end of competitive. However, there is a point at which more money no longer truly motivates me, and I passed that years ago. Now, there are other cultural things which do motivate me. They include:

I'm not the only person who's at the top of their game. It's nice to be able to really learn from others.
I get to go home on the evenings, and the weekends.
I can work from home when it's practical.
I don't have someone hawking over me.
I have a large amount of freedom to execute the work in a manner which makes sense to me (This is why people who care about their craft are important!)
I have interesting and very difficult problems to solve.
The problems I solve aren't just about lining someone's pockets with money. There's more purpose here.

There are lots of places that survive off of hiring mediocrity, and have controls/standards in place to help hedge that (Extensive code standards, technology restrictions, other bureaucratic controls). Some people are VERY comfortable with that level of constraint. In those kinds of places I have quickly grown frustrated and unhappy. Of course, those places that survive off of mediocrity ALSO think they want passionate developers... But very often they don't really, they just want people who will work super extra hard but not ask questions nor challenge the system. It's up to the candidate to distinguish between the two.

Re:Always looking for passionate programmers

[phantomfive]

This is true. I used to be like the guy above, who only wanted 'passionate' programmers. But then I met programmers who weren't passionate, but were still very good at what they did.

Now I look for programmers who are good at what they do. I would rather have the guy with a good work ethic who is committed to completing a task; not the guy who passionately writes a thousand lines of code, working into midnight, but gets disinterested when it comes time to debug (both real people I've met).

Basically you want someone who can do the job, that's all that matters. People who say they want passionate programmers say so because they think only passionate programmers can do the job. I used to be one of those people, but it is a sign of lack of life experience.

Re:Always looking for passionate programmers

[phantomfive]

From the other side, when you go into a job interview, it's always better to at least pretend to be enthusiastic. If you can't even act like you want the job, too many people will be reticent to hire you.

Re:Always looking for passionate programmers

[kwiecmmm]

Where I work, there are no grunts. There are no people who mindlessly grind out code. We're not building yet another website: We're solving hard problems, and we want everyone to contribute.

While I don't mindlessly grind out code all the time, there are times when I work on a problem and I have to mindlessly grind out parts of it. I am pretty sure this is the same with most projects.

I love writing code and working on hard problems, but do I feel like working on them for 80 hours a week, every week? No, I enjoy having a life outside of work and a separation of work and home life is necessary.

Re:Always looking for passionate programmers

[Anonymous Coward]

I work for an academic non-profit...The salaries are on the low-end of competitive

So to answer the question: No. You are not willing to pay for talent, but expect it anyway.

Re:Always looking for passionate programmers

[SirGarlon]

This makes me realize another good retort: "Are you (the hiring manager) passionate about management?"

Are you always looking to drive the project to success? Do you know how to enable your team to meet expectations in a normal, 40-hour work week? Are you committed to professional development for your team members so they can chart their own courses for their careers? Do you consider offering average salary and benefits "not good enough?"

Or you really just asking for more from your people than you are willing to deliver yourself?

Re:Always looking for passionate programmers

[uncqual]

I think you nailed it.

Money is a great demotivater. You certainly can demotivate someone who is passionate about a job by underpaying them - even just a little bit of underpaying can be disastrous.

However, money is not a great motivator for people passionate about a trade or skill except, perhaps, in special circumstances where that trade or skill is money oriented (banking/finance for example). In fact, trying to motivate someone by significantly overpaying them can backfire because they may become fearful of losing their job and returning to "market rate" and having $50K less a year to spend/invest. In a field like software development, you don't want your employees to be too motivated to "keep their jobs", you want them to be very motivated to "do their jobs" well -- and sometimes that means telling the project manager that "Nope, we can't/shouldn't do X in time Y because if we try, it will suck" or telling their manager "The weekly Aggregated Project Control Summary Assessment Review Status Inventory Process is taking me two hours a week to complete and I think it's a complete waste of time - please explain why this is of benefit".

Most great developers I know would work for free if their modest needs were provided for and they could do what they love to do. Of course, what one developer loves is different than what the developer in the next office loves. It's the responsibility of management to figure that out and assign work/guide the project to best "exploit" (in a positive sense) the strengths/weaknesses and passions of each developer while also giving them assignments that allow them/urge them/require them to expand their scope and horizon -- esp. for less experienced developers who are more likely to benefit.

Re:Always looking for passionate programmers

[Dracolytch]

Look, if money is your focus, there are LOTS of companies willing to give you lots of money, and will give you a soul-crushing or brain-numbing job. I turned many of them down during my last job hunt.

Re:Always looking for passionate programmers

[phantomfive]

We're solving hard problems,

This is actually hard to believe. There are not many companies that are actually solving hard problems. Most of them are solving easy problems, and are filled with teams who are re-inventing the wheel. Reinventing the wheel can be hard, but it's not because you are solving problems.

Re:Always looking for passionate programmers

[RabidReindeer]

I'm a passionate programmer. I got a lot of static because I passionately wanted my code to be as reliable, performant, and secure as possible. Management just wanted me to "Git 'R Dun!"

I have yet to see a major project that required 100% top talent 100% of the time. Which is why I'm always grateful on the rare occasions that I'm given a supply of grunts that I can pass off the grunt work to. It allows me to be more productive at the stuff that I can do that few others can.

But passionate doesn't mean exploitable. I'm passionate about my kitchen and garden, too. I want to get home at a reasonable hour so I can indulge those passions as well. It often happens that inspiration can occur while I'm weeding out the rutabagas that wouldn't if I was parked in a chair drearily staring at cubicle walls after putting in 11 hours in the office, so I figure it's a net win all the way around.

Re:Always looking for passionate programmers

[Dracolytch]

That is an ~excellent~ question, which I might not use directly in a job interview, but would try to figure out during the process. Job interviews go both ways, and this is a very valuable assessment to make.

Re:Always looking for passionate programmers

[TheRealMindChild]

Yeah, I saw manager speak all over this guy:

Where I work, there are no grunts. There are no people who mindlessly grind out code. We're not building yet another website: We're solving hard problems, and we want everyone to contribute

"If you call a day off work you better put it back either by extended hours for the rest of the week or throw in one of your weekend days. I don't care about your allotted sick or vacation days. You owe me work"

To contribute with value, you need to not stagnate in one technology for half your career. You need to be well-read about software.

"You better spend your offtime studying everything you don't do at work"

And while we work very few weekends, sometimes there are longer days (like anywhere).

"We work a 60 hour a week minimum and if that isn't enough to get done what I threw on you at the last minute, kiss your weekend goodbye"

The salaries are on the low-end of competitive.

"We pay dirt. If you don't like it, we can replace you with 3 indians"

However, there is a point at which more money no longer truly motivates me, and I passed that years ago

"I have plenty of money in the bank, I've paid for my kids college, own my house and two luxury cars. We aren't going to pay you more, so we will twist this into a debate about morals"

I could go on and on, but I've seen this guy too many times. The only people he is fooling is his employees.

Re:Always looking for passionate programmers

[gander666]

I am not a coder, but I made this exact same decision about 5 years ago. Been much happier since.

Re:Always looking for passionate programmers

[SirGarlon]

At one point my stepmother was interviewing for a new job and the interviewer stopped her and said, "Hey, wait a minute. You're interviewing *me!*"

To which she replied, without missing a beat, "Don't worry, you're doing fine."

Re:Always looking for passionate programmers

[Dracolytch]

OP here: It's a research lab. Some of our work includes things like missile defense, space programs, submarines, and brain-computer interfaces.

Honestly? It's like f*ing Eureka in here, minus the regular life-threatening events.

Re:Always looking for passionate programmers

[Stormy Dragon]

You also missed that "Where I work, there are no grunts. There are no people who mindlessly grind out code." is code for "There is no technical career track here; once hired you will never get any sort of promotion."

Re:Always looking for passionate programmers

[Vanders]

I love writing code and working on hard problems, but do I feel like working on them for 80 hours a week, every week? No, I enjoy having a life outside of work and a separation of work and home life is necessary.

So much this. I enjoy solving difficult problems, but I also enjoy a not using a computer.

Nor do I currently have any active open source projects on my Github account; because you know, I spent over ten years working on Syllable and frankly that was more than most people do in a lifetime, so I'm O.K with that.

Happily the sorts of companies I work for are O.K with that too, and prefer to judge me on my experience and work I produce professionally, rather than an irrelevant body of work that I produced in my spare time.

Re:Always looking for passionate programmers

[Cederic]

Yeah, I think I've scared off a couple of hiring managers by quite clearly showing an interest in their own approach to the role.

It's important to me, I have to be able to work with these people. That means it's important that I know they're competent, and that they know that I expect them to do their job.

If you're thinking that I find it hard to find jobs, you're right. Always been happy with the jobs I've chosen though, so never regretted taking the time.

Re:Always looking for passionate programmers

[Cederic]

There's competence, which you described for yourself.
There's passion, which you described for someone else.

The sweet spot is the intersect.

Re:Always looking for passionate programmers

[tompaulco]

As a manager and as a developer I would strongly say that money very greatly increases my passion. I have been working 60+ hour weeks at my present job for 10 years with no raise, no bonus, and no advancement and I can tell you that I am EXTREMELY passionate about technology, but the lack of appreciation or recognition of my efforts has demotivated me to the point where I find it difficult to care anymore. All they would have to do is pay me industry standard for my position, and not only would I feel a lot better about the hours I put in, but I would have a lot less stress about money at home as well. Just because they haven't given me any more money over the last 10 years hasn't stopped the price of practically everything from going up 50-60% in that time.

Re:Always looking for passionate programmers

[Cederic]

So you buy a company, because it's got cool technology, great customers, makes a lot of profit and you can merge all that with your existing products, people and customers to add 20% turnover to the combined organisation.

This is sound business sense. Everybody wins.

Problem: How do you avoid escalating costs through duplication of HR, Finance, IT and other corporate processes? How do you migrate employee information to another jurisdiction with different data protection laws? How do you decommission 16 systems without suffering data loss, without hammering your P&L with premature capital write-offs, without spending millions of dollars that aren't in your budget, without going out of compliance on software licenses, without downtime, without excessive retraining costs, without.. shit, you get the picture.

No, this is not "solve the travelling salesman problem in no more than 80 character of perl" problem solving, but those are fucking hard problems with often no right answers.

Reinvent the wheel? When the wheel costs $380m then you have to, you can't fucking afford it.

Re:Always looking for passionate programmers

[gnasher719]

Most great developers I know would work for free if their modest needs were provided for and they could do what they love to do.

You don't know any great married developers?

Re:Always looking for passionate programmers

[phantomfive]

Nor do I currently have any active open source projects on my Github account; because you know, I spent over ten years working on Syllable and frankly that was more than most people do in a lifetime, so I'm O.K with that.

Is there any interesting/cool/beautiful/unusual/fun code in Syllable that you could point out to me? I would love to see it.

Re:Always looking for passionate programmers

[phantomfive]

Problem: How do you avoid escalating costs through duplication of HR, Finance, IT and other corporate processes? How do you migrate employee information to another jurisdiction with different data protection laws? How do you decommission 16 systems without suffering data loss, without hammering your P&L with premature capital write-offs, without spending millions of dollars that aren't in your budget, without going out of compliance on software licenses, without downtime, without excessive retraining costs, without.. shit, you get the picture.

Uh, this happens all the time. If that particular problem scares you so much, then the problem is you, not the the integration. It's a management problem, get some management skills.

Re:Always looking for passionate programmers

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh bullshit! You are the bog standard dip shit manager. I work career fairs all the time and always come up with small companies that want to hire me, then I ask how much they pay and the answer "we're looking for people passionate about their work and not concerned with pay". I say, well, when you consider pay as important, then come talk to me. I work for a pay check. Period. Anybody who says anything else is either the boss, lying or disillusioned. I work a job that I enjoy, pays well and isn't soul crushing. They understand we come to work to work, then we go home to not work. They expect us to come in 40 hours a week, and work hard that time, they pay us well for it. They don't hold it against us if we *only* work 40 hours a week. If you dropped the exact lines on me that you just said here, I'd smile and say "oh, how interesting" while mentally saying, "no fucking way I'd work for them". What you said is "work you into the ground but not pay you for it". Dumb ass new grads would fall for it, but nobody worth their salt with any experience would.

Re:Always looking for passionate programmers

[Cederic]

It doesn't scare me, and it's not purely a management problem. It is definitely hard to solve, which was my point.

Re:Always looking for passionate programmers

[uncqual]

"Modest needs" includes those expenses associated with being married and having a rug rat or two and saving for retirement. Of course, sometimes a developer's spouse makes a lot more money so that can reduce the compensation level required to meet modest needs - perhaps down to zero. BTW, I'm in no way suggesting that developers should not seek pay above their modest needs or that employers should try to keep salaries down to a level just covering their developer's modest needs -- the market will decide if compensation is above or below a particular individual's modest needs.

However, most great developers I've worked with don't have extravagant needs and as long as those needs are met, they are likely to value the nature of the work more than salary (within reason of course).

Re:Always looking for passionate programmers

[phantomfive]

Once again, passion is cool, but I'd still prefer someone with commitment to finish the job. Because on most jobs, in the last 10% it will get tough, and not fun; passions will be extinguished, and those who are driven by passion will go home (I've seen people quit jobs because of that). You need to have something more to help you through the not fun parts.

Re:Always looking for passionate programmers

[Vanders]

Most of it is personal to me, but in all honesty the ATA driver is rather funky: a ring 0 multi-threaded driver. If you ignore the completely insane stuff for handling various horrifically broken ATA hardware implementations, then the actual implementation itself is rather elegant.

I also wrote a rather interesting multi-stage asynchronous media pipeline that emulated Java/C# interfaces in C++, but that never made it past the prototype stage.

Re:Always looking for passionate programmers

[phantomfive]

Sweet, thanks, I'll check it out. I looked briefly at the multi-stage asynchronous media pipeline, and first I would say that I really like the Makefile. It is so nice and clean; rare to see a decent Makefile. A thing of beauty.

Other than that, it's not entirely clear to me what a multi-stage asynchronous media pipeline does though :S

Re:Always looking for passionate programmers

[c0lo]

Oh bullshit! ... I work for a pay check. Period. Anybody who says anything else is either the boss, lying or disillusioned.

Oh, bullshit. After being in various management position more than half of my career, I picked a SoftEng position in a research joint. Highly interesting and demanding on the quality of the output but relaxed in regards with delivery terms. Not only I'm able to readjust and catch up with the technologies I missed while acting as a manager (oh, boy, how many they are), but also leaves me time to try something on my own.

Consider this: do you want to retire from an employee position? I don't, thus the more relaxed (but still meaningful) job that I do is more rewarding than other highly-payed-but-no-liberty ones

Re:Always looking for passionate programmers

[phantomfive]

It doesn't scare me

Good. Keep up the good work.

Re:Always looking for passionate programmers

[ranton]

Once again, passion is cool, but I'd still prefer someone with commitment to finish the job. Because on most jobs, in the last 10% it will get tough, and not fun; passions will be extinguished, and those who are driven by passion will go home (I've seen people quit jobs because of that). You need to have something more to help you through the not fun parts.

I see your point, but those passionate developers are usually the ones who know enough to make the application scale properly, make it maintainable, extensible, etc. which makes the last 10% not quite as tough. That is obviously an overstatement because even "rock-star" developers make mistakes and cut corners, but at least they understand they are cutting corners (instead of just not knowing any better). I guess this only applies to developers who are passionate about software development, not just playing the the newest toys.

Passion isn't just helpful when the going gets tough, it is helpful in stopping the going from getting tough in the first place.

Re:Always looking for passionate programmers

[Snorbert Xangox]

Sorry, but I disagree. I work for an academic employer (a supercomputing centre), and the environment that now exists in that workplace is much as Dracolytch spelled out in his second post. We really want to work alongside people who are prepared to think about more than the immediate next step in getting a problem to go away. I'm not a manager, and barring something drastic happening, I will not be in the foreseeable future, but I really value being able to work alongside people who, y'know, care about getting to the root of problems and fixing them in ways that help improve the lot of other staff and our user base. As for whether this is really "passionate", I'd prefer to say something like "thoughtful, considerate, productive and interested in learning."

But I strongly dispute that, in the sense Dracolytch seems to be using it, it means "enthusiastic to the point of being exploitable". We *did* see that sort of boundary violation in our organisation with one manager who was thankfully moved sideways to other responsibilities: key people were being poached from other teams and grossly overcommitted to an endless series of new projects, expected to take on way-out-of-hours problems on office hours pay, with absolutely no formal overtime or on-call provisions (how wonderful it was to receive a text from that manager at 12:30am offering me the root passwords to a storage service the manager wanted to see brought back online when the main admins were on leave, having previously been actively ignored and excluded from that part of the business by the same manager), and generally jerked around like marionettes in a hurricane as the manager pursued his strange agendas of trying to take on any data storage job that would bring in some bucks without any detailed capacity planning or workload modelling. People had to learn on the fly to get things running ASAP; testing was minimal, mistakes were made, and the resulting services were slow and unreliable. It was a very demoralizing time, and everyone was glad to finally see a manager appointed for operations who started planning, listening to his staff and concentrating on delivering a core set of reliable, well-managed services. Even so, everyone still needs to bring a decent level of enthusiasm for fixing problems, building well-engineered systems, looking at the bigger picture, and learning new things. Petaflop-scale HPC and storage is not a turnkey operation, and it's not advisable to kick back and coast along if you are planning to be around when the chickens come home to roost.

Re:Always looking for passionate programmers

[Dracolytch]

Interesting... I wonder if you and I work in the same research joint. :)

Re:Always looking for passionate programmers

[Dracolytch]

Hi.. The OP you're quoting here:

Yes, what you've talked about is what I've experienced in for-profit industry... But here at a non-profit research lab, it's not like that at all.

Freedom to study/use new technologies so long as they apply to your projects. Crunch time is 45-50 hours a week, and so far I've only had 3 weeks of crunch time in the last year. Salaries aren't super-duper awesome, but they are competitive, but they also have the best benefit package I've seen anywhere.

Also, I don't have employees: I'm just a developer now. I gave up management to go back to developing, because I ~am~ a passionate developer. There is an extremely strong technical track here which will likely allow me to remain a developer for the rest of my career, if that's what I choose.

These great jobs in software ~are~ out there... You have to find them, and be the kind of person they want to hire.

Re:Always looking for passionate programmers

[Dracolytch]

Aaah, no... Academic institution with extremely strong technical track, plus paid post-graduate classes if I so choose... Which I can take where I work, on company time.

Re:Always looking for passionate programmers

[Dracolytch]

So, why do you put up with it?

Be careful what you wish for

[tempest69]

Honestly, most managers would be clueless as how to deal with a passionate programmer.

The meetings, conference calls, the coding conventions, the documentation, making hard choices that hurt the deeper beauty of the finished product. This is poison to the passionate programmer. Other people doing substandard things to her code. This isn't ok to do to someones passions. It would be like letting a person bring a pet to work, and the staff kicks it at a whim.

They want people who pretend to be passionate. But really their looking for employees that want a paycheck, and a good portfolio when they leave.

Re:Be careful what you wish for

[Akratist]

I completely agree with this. When I started at my current place, I was like "Hey, we can fix X, change Y, and implement Z," all of which would have slashed the time spent on maintenance. As a result, I got off on the wrong foot with my boss, who is conservative, almost cautious, about changing code. I understand his perspective, that they are happy with a system that works, and that incremental improvements are what people are used to and want here. One of the other guys I work with here is the same way as me, wanting to improve the app, but not being allowed to start making substantive changes. I understand my boss' position, and I don't actually have a problem with it, because it is what is expected of him and what suits the company. At the same time, it's not an environment I'm actually happy in, so it's just a matter of good and bad fits for each type of coder.

Re:Be careful what you wish for

[Jakeula]

I have worked a few jobs programming. I have also interned at many tech related companies. While I agree the big company that has a couple hundred employees, with management everywhere act very much like how you described. However I have been part of smaller teams from 4-100 people and I find that those companies are a lot more willing to listen to the tech team about how to do something. Don't get me wrong they still want feature X by date Y and look like how these guys did it, but when my teams have voiced their opinions at these smaller companies they were actually talked about. So I think some companies actually want those passionate people who want to do things right, and in my experience they are willing to pay for them. This isn't always the case, but I think its becoming far more common.

Re:Be careful what you wish for

[Bryan Ischo]

I'm with you on everything except documentation. If you think you are a good developer and you don't care about accessible, thorough, and well maintained documentation of whatever it is you produce ... well you're not as good as you think you are.

My biggest problem with being a 'passionate programmer' is that I get into too many pointless fights with other developers because that passion makes it hard to let anything go, to let anything be done in a way that I believe is unnecessarily substandard. This is where reigning in the passion is absolutely called for but very difficult to do at times.

Re:Be careful what you wish for

[tempest69]

A Passionate Programmer != Good Developer
A good developer cares about their craft, a passionate programmer cares about their code.

Re:Be careful what you wish for

[hey!]

In my experience, the most important emotional stance to have with respect to code is to care about the people who will depend upon that code. If you make their success your success, you will make the right decisions by them.

Re:Be careful what you wish for

[uncqual]

Of course, those managers should be replaced (first level managers should always have been passionate programmers at some point in their career, else it's almost impossible for them to do their job correctly).

However, developers also need to understand that in the commercial world the reason that most projects they are working on exist is to make the company money -- after all, that's where the money comes from to pay them. Rarely is a significant commercial project created and staffed just to entertain developers.

Some of the "poisons" you mention are usually required to some extent if a significant sized project is going to be as successful in the long term as it could be. Professional commercial developers, both those that are passionate and those that are not, recognize this.

For example, coding conventions make it easier for other developers over the coming years (or even decades) to grok code quickly - making their work faster and less error prone. On the average, a line of code in a successful project will be read many more times than it is modified and probably by many more developers so a trivial "inconvenience" or "stifling of personal expression" imposed on the code author/modifier is well worth the long term benefits of consistency. Of course, coding conventions should be as crisp as possible and should be tolerant of "violations" for special circumstances that other professionals would generally agree with for that case. I hate when I have to debug/understand/modify a module where the original implementation used camel case member names, the next substantial modification added underscore separated word member naming, the next substantial modifications used all lowercase "run together" member naming, and somewhere along the line someone prepended 'm_' to the members they added. In such cases, when debugging, I have to remember if a member was named bytesLeft, bytes_left, bytesleft or BytesLeft (or all of those prepended with an 'm_') - most likely, I end up wasting a few seconds here and there because I did forget which style was used for 'bytes left' since I last used it a couple days ago. As well, when I add a new member to a class with a mishmash of member naming conventions, I have to think about which of the existing ones to adopt (the most recently added?, the most prevalent in the class?, whatever I felt like doing that day?). In the long term, reasonable coding conventions save time for relatively little cost -- sort of like getting a flu vaccination (your arm may be slightly sore for a day or two every year, but you may go for decades without ever suffering for days with a flu).

Documentation is similar. Appropriately detailed design documentation allows more architectural/design flaws or improvements to be identified early because more experts can reasonably review the design before time has been spent writing code that needs to be reworked or customer commitments aren't met because an obscure concurrency bug that is architectural in nature was found late in system test and the product was delayed requiring that (unhappy) customers change their plans. Appropriate user/administrator level documentation is also critical and saves time in the long run for many projects -- it saves calls to the support line, it improves the training materials for customers as well as internal employees, and it results in a more knowledgeable support staff able to handle cases rather than escalate them to engineering. All of these get customer issues resolved, on the average, earlier and at less cost. Although, in most cases, I personally don't think developers should generally be writing the end user/administrator docs -- professional tech writers should be doing so from the (updated) functional design docs because it's rare that good developers like to write such docs and, more importantly, it's rare that they are very competent at it.

Calling a spade a spade.

[zenasprime]

I think the summary nails it. Employers are mostly looking to exploit their "human resources" anyway they can to make a buck. That includes grinding your passion to a pulp why they reward themselves to the fruits of that hard labor. Everyone should stop pussyfooting around and just learn to not feel bad about calling spade spades.

Re:Calling a spade a spade.

[zenasprime]

If only I could ever get my supervisors to see the big picture it would have been a miracle. All that concerned them was "is there a body in that position" and "how do i game the system so i can get my bonus this year".

Easiest way to promote passion

[MikeRT]

Is to just establish a culture that rewards going the extra mile with more money. If a developer helps develop business, cut them a commission check comparable to the sales guy. If they have a reputation for rapidly solving customer problems, throw them a bonus.

Build Mastery

[Anonymous Coward]

Mastery and Passion go together. Without Passion, Mastery will not result.

I've been writing code since the '60s. I'm still the best in any team I join. When I'm not, I refactor, relearn, rebuild, etc. my skills. Then I'm the best again.

This doesn't diminish the other dimensions, but this is where it's at. If you're not passionate, you won't think about it night and day, and you just won't reach that level of Mastery.

Nor will you gain the satisfaction from having done so.

I don't always code,

[schlachter]

...but when i do...i prefer to do it with passion.
stay passionate my friends.

Re:I don't always code,

[DoofusOfDeath]

You are the most interesting programmer in the world.

Re:I don't always code,

[pixelpusher220]

well that's a low bar ;-)

Re:I don't always code,

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, I suppose normal people almost always live more exciting lives than dull programming nerds like, e.g., John McAfee.

Much ado about nothing.

[wcrowe]

I think this is being read the wrong way. There is a huge demand (sometimes real, sometimes perceived) for coders out there. Companies feel like they need to attract coders who, in most cases, already have a job. A lot of these coders are in jobs that are not very challenging, and/or they have bosses who are like the PHB in Dilbert. Basically, a lot of coders are unhappy. Their jobs are tedious and they don't get recognition for doing good work. By using words like "passionate" employers are creating the illusion of a job that will be more challenging and exciting than whatever job the coder is currently in. In reality, businesses could care less whether you are "passionate" about coding or not, so long as you can get the job done and you are halfway competent they're okay. There's nothing really Orwellian about it. They're just trying to use language that will catch the attention of potential candidates.

It is code for WARNING: Dumbass Managers Ahead

[Anonymous Coward]

Managers and HR want only the best coders, they solve this by the following:
Taking 10+ random and duplicate hour long interviews of which the person must pass all with flying colors
Must be really good at puzzles, because programming is soo much about pulling novel tricks out your ass on the spot
"He" must fit in with our culture and be cool and hip
And lets not forget paying them:
Be willing to be paid in free fruit and soda or pay us to work here because we are an awesome fashion subscription next big thing and women buy anything
OR we are a post IPO social company with a 200 P/E ratio and we will give you a wheelbarrow full of our stock options
OR he must have wet dreams about coding elaborate medical billing systems, because oh yeah that is the boring shit we actually do

I think you over estimate non-engineers

[netsavior]

Anyone with any lick of coding ability is passionate about programming. This is equivalent to hiring an artist to draw logos and saying they must be passionate about art, of course they are, or they wouldn't be an artist.
Compare that to other "less creative" positions... The average call-center person is probably not passionate about call centering.
Consider this:

public String getSum(int numA, int num2) {
if (numA == num2)
{
return "" + numA*2;
}
return ""+(numA + num2);
}

If that was painful for you, congratulations... you are more passionate about programming than 99% of people are about their job.

Re:I think you over estimate non-engineers

[jones_supa]

Yeah, I come across some wacky code like that every now and then.

Re:I think you over estimate non-engineers

[wcrowe]

Wish I had mod points. That literally made me LOL.

Re:I think you over estimate non-engineers

[csnydermvpsoft]

What's wrong with that code snippet? It fulfills the API contract perfectly. Is it the indentation and line-breaks?

(I'm kidding. Your post is going to give me nightmares tonight. Thanks a lot.)

Re:I think you over estimate non-engineers

[SleazyRidr]

"We expect our coders to produce at least 1,000 lines of code per day."

Of course someone passionate about coding would point out why a sentiment like that is bullshit and/or find somewhere better to work.

Re:I think you over estimate non-engineers

[NewWorldDan]

And it's even more embarrassing when I realize that I'm the idiot that wrote it.

Re:I think you over estimate non-engineers

[rk]

Code review time! This function is not optimal. This is better:

public String getSum(int numA, int num2) {
    if (numA == num2)
    {
        return "" + numA << 1;
    }
    return ""+(numA + num2);
}

Much better, see? ;-)

Re:I think you over estimate non-engineers

[c0lo]

Code review time! This function is not optimal. This is better:

public String getSum(int numA, int num2) { if (numA == num2) { return "" + numA << 1; } return ""+(numA + num2); }

Much better, see? ;-)

Oh, god... I don't know where to begin, but let's try:
* no code comment. How's the mainteners going to understand what's going on?
* function returns left right and center all over the body. If seriously hurts the ability to debug/trace (suppose I put a breakpoint on line 6. There will be cases it won'y be hit);
* returns of values computed from expressions: how do you inspect the returned value in debugging mode without actually returning?

Let's try again:

public String getSum(int numA, int num2) {
// always initialize your vars with something you can detect when changed
int retVal=Integer.MAX_VALUE;
if (numA == num2)
{
retVal = numA << 1; // faster than *2
}
else
{
retVal = (numA + num2);
}
String toRet = "" + retVal; // good to have something to inspect/change at debug time
return toRet; // a single return statement at the end of the method
}

What they're really after

[dkleinsc]

What they're saying they want is people who will happily be in the office 100 hours a week, plugging away and barely stopping to eat.

In other words, it's a red flag, and I'll pretty much reject out of hand a contact from a company that makes a big deal about it.

Depends on the job and person

[Akratist]

Truthfully, there are a lot of jobs which basically require a person to show up and write competent code according to decent instructions, then shut it down and go home for the day. There are some jobs which require a high, if not manic, level of commitment to the job, because it's difficult, the tech is hard to work with, the requirements or deadlines are insane, etc. A high-performing coder is going to get bored at a 9 to 5 maintenance job...while an average code is not going to be able to take on the latter kind of job, but will do fine at maintenance. I worked for several years at a place that was a start up with a lot of big dreams and long hours, then it basically folded and I took a job which is a 9 to 5 maintenance job. When I get out of here for the day, I go home and start coding for fun, while keeping an eye out for the next high-pressure, high-demand gig. I get bored in this kind of environment, and so do most of the people I used to work with at the start-up. It's just about the right person and job and not some latest buzzword or ideal about who a candidate should be.

Re:Depends on the job and person

[Akratist]

One thing I forgot to add to my post is that the passionate, high-performing coder is more likely to run into issues with burnout at some point. They don't realize when they've crossed the line, most of the time.

Congrats at noticing code words

[k8to]

Corporate speak is full of nonsense code words use to mean things other than what they mean. Job postings are nearly the thickest.

"Need Passionate Self-Starter who is a rock-star team-player who wants to change the world!"

This stuff has been nonsense since before I was born.

Balance

[sl4shd0rk]

A healthy passion for something includes a well-balanced diet of other activities not related to your passion. Any place wanting to hire otherwise is only going to get a sociopath. That said, it's frustrating and time consuming to get a pile of resumes where most are such an impossible fit, they could not have possibly read the posting. You tend to get a little "over specific" next time you list just to weed out more of the static.

Passion is its own antonym

[michaelmalak]

The meme "be passionate about something" always bothered me, because beyond it's intended surface implication that working hard towards a goal produces results, it suggests that satisfying one's passions is a worthy goal -- i.e. the purpose of life is self-satisfaction of one's own passions.

Then I researched the etymology of "passion". Passion comes from the Latin passio which means "suffering," which is why Jesus' suffering leading up to His crucifixion is called the "Passion of Christ." Jesus did it for others, not for Himself.

Over the centuries, the meaning of the English word "passion" morphed into meaning suffering due to desire. Thus, "passion" is in some sense its own antonym, in terms of serving self vs. serving others, when comparing the modern definition against its Latin root.

This ambiguity is being exploited by these hiring companies. Because the word "passion" hides whom one is serving, hiring companies are hiding that what they really want you to do is suffer while serving them.

The flip side of passion

[swm]

Most of the code that I see exhibits what I can only describe as a kind of aggressive indifference.
It's not just that they don't care.
They *totally* don't care.
And they're going to make sure you know it.
And suffer for it.

After a while, dealing with this stuff is just depressing.
Especially if you do care.

Application for telephon sanitizer position

[sinij]

I love sanitizing telephones. I dream of sanitizing telephones. I enjoy sanitizing telephones. I find high quality telephone sanatization deeply satisfying. I feel the same way about helping others sanitizing telephones so they can feel proud. Please hire me so I can buy food and shelter.

Re:Application for telephon sanitizer position

[dkleinsc]

Did the government make sure to inform you about how we're all in imminent danger of being eaten by a giant mutant space goat?

The message

[Spiked_Three]

I saw a big change happen in the industry, while I was briefly at Microsoft.

My manager, and Microsoft in general was more about delivering a positive message, as opposed to having a positive message to deliver.

The problem with that is, if you encourage everyone to do it, they eventually begin doing it even to the company and not just the customers.

"How is that new version of windows going?"

"It's going great!!"

And we all know now, it was terrible, horrible, full of in fighting, self promotion, bad decisions.

"How is that new web site that all America will use, and a presidency depends on?"

"It's going great!!"

See the pattern here?

You really want passionate developers? You are an idiot if you do. As a boss, I did not want surprises, and to me the worse thing in the world a company could do was sell something that was broke. Companies today do not seem to share that philosophy. Consumers tolerate crap and beg for more. So, I guess it really is not just the companies to blame.

Re:The message

[Megane]

The fact that the ONLY person held responsible for 4 Americans being killed in Benghazi is a filmmaker in California.

You apparently never watched the "film", because you didn't put "filmmaker" in quotes. Seriously, I thought I was being trolled when I followed a link to it. The best part is that you can tell where they dubbed in the "anti-Mohammed" words, because the audio quality was better than the rest of this freshman college student quality "film".

Re:The message

[Spiked_Three]

unrelated to the topic, but I agree 100%.

As a hobbyist flying 'drones' I immediately think about a hobbyist drone, that discovered a company pouring pigs blood into a river.

The end result? Well yeah, that company lost its ass, but it is now a crime for anyone else to discover such with a drone. Protect the corporations, at all costs!

Humanity be damned!

Bolerplate requirement

[floobedy]

Perhaps this "passion" stuff is just standard bullshit which is not really expected.

A few jobs ago, I worked for a company which had a job opening. They posted an ad for the job, in which they described the ideal candidate as someone who was deeply "PASSIONATE" about their work. However the position itself was in accounting--specifically, in payroll. Obviously nobody is passionate about payroll. Nevertheless, they asked each interviewee if he was "passionate" about payroll, and each candidate answered that he was.

Re:Bolerplate requirement

[iggymanz]

news for you, I've worked at places where the accountants' eyes light up for end of month, and the big run in January for end-of-year is like a weeks long orgy. So you haven't met true accounting types, with the CPAs and belonging to trade associations and submitting papers to journals....

Re:Bolerplate requirement

[floobedy]

News for you, that is totally different. I know there are tax accountants who figure out creative, imaginative ways to dodge taxes. I know there are corporate accountants who figure out fascinating ways to hide losses. I know there are accounting journals, and all kinds of complicated accounting.

This position, however, was to do payroll for a company with fewer than 100 employees. The person who got the position, will not be submitting papers to journals.

It's an art form

[Floyd-ATC]

If you want to paint a barn, you hire a painter. If you want to decorate the ceiling of a cathedral, you hire an artist who is passionate about her work. The painter will usually have more predictable working hours and make enough to support a family. The artist is the one who will be remembered :-)

Re:It's an art form

[Altus]

The artist is the one who will be remembered :-)

And will die alone and penniless in a ditch.

I love this article!

[bigsexyjoe]

I like coding. I don't love it. I have a wide variety of interests in my life, such as family, movies, reading about other topics.

I have met a very few coders who are really all code all the time. And you know what? I find them insufferable.

A person should be well rounded and have many interests.

Don't question anything.

[MaWeiTao]

In my experience when a company says they want someone "passionate" what they mean is that they want someone willing to work overtime on a regular basis. Secondarily, they want someone who doesn't question overtly stupid decisions.

Just do what you're told and be enthusiastic that you have a job.

Passionate == Enjoys programming

[PackMan97]

What I look for when hiring someone is someone who likes programming. Who wants to get better at doing it. Who wants to work with other people who like programming and want to get better. Someone who treats their work like a craftsman.

I think a lot of these job ads are so over the top because the folks doing the hiring have no idea what they want in a developer. Somewhere along the way someone wrote a blog post on somewhere site that talked about hiring folks who have a passion for their work.

However at the end of the day, do you want to hire a zookeeper who doesn't like animals? an accountant who hates math? a lawyer who can't stand the courtroom? No you don't. You want to hire someone who goes in does an 8-10 hour day and at the end of it says, "I'm proud of what I've done. I can't wait to do some more of it tomorrow".

I think moderately enthusiastic would be just fine for most position. What I don't want is someone who views the job as a grind or a bore. I will fire you for a bad attitude. Fake enjoying it until you actually do :)

Re:Passionate == Enjoys programming

[PackMan97]

LOL! Like I'm going to trust the interesting work to someone who posts as much on Slashdot as YOU!

I know where to find some passionate programers!

[XxtraLarGe]

Better hurry up while supplies last!

Passion is an overstatement ...

[perpenso]

Did you think that those personality surveys pushed by MBA's for gas station attendants wouldn't reach Engineering?

We did those at work and school and the programmers did fit into a couple of predictable buckets. It was fun to watch one manager say this test is wrong, my observations would put you into a different bucket.

This is not to say a person must be in one of the predictably buckets to do well at a particular job, just that there is something to these tests. Some people with certain dispositions find some jobs more attractive than others.

The problem is, being passionate about code, doesn't have anything to do with being able to code. Just how much you enjoy your profession (Without the added benefit of pay).

Passion is buzzwordish and an overstatement. However the better programmers that I have known over the decades have been those who have a genuine inherent interest in programming. They will read about software development, learn new languages and write some program on their own for nothing more than their own amusement or curiosity. Those who have never written any code outside of work or school tend not to be the better programmers. When someone uses "passionate" I interpret it as distinguishing the former from the later. Granted there may be time periods where those interested in programming may not have the free time to do so, like when they have a new child. However when free time and circumstances permit I've seen a little reading and coding creep back in.

That said, my first job out of college was to take a custom designed board for an embedded system that the hardware guys just got working and to write its firmware: a kernel, its drivers and software that would load and host a C-based application. I don't know if "passionate" would apply but as someone who likes assembly language and low level programming I was pretty damn excited and really enjoyed my day to day work an awful lot. I suppose a buzzword compliant manager could have described me as "passionate" although I would have sued different words.

Re:Passion is an overstatement ...

[icebike]

Everybody seems to think the maker for programmers revolves around game development or writing yet another version of some cockamamie scripting language. They look for people who can create the next Doom game engine, or re-write the current one to drive and assembly line or something.

Then they hire these people to keep an in-house accounting system running, or do maintenance on some software product that they sell, and (far less frequently) to design and build something totally new.

The guy reading every new text about programming and fiddling with every new programming language will sooner or later end up using YOUR project as a proving ground for HIS passion. Soon you have an maintainable mess, and he moves on to another job.

For most work in this industry (any software industry), pride of craftsmanship is worth a great deal more than passion.

I quite frankly don't care what he does on the weekends, and the fly fisherman will arrive back at work Monday morning more refreshed, and with fresh insights (there is a lot of time to think while waiting for fish to commit suicide). That vexing problem and that horribly complex chunk of code will end up being well handled and properly structured, simplified, before it is actually written, and documented, and tested, because the pride of authorship won't allow anything else.

Meanwhile the guy coding up his own game engine nights and weekends burns himself out, arrives with a fried brain, and your project suffers.

Not saying that a healthy interest in programming techniques and after hours involvement in coding projects are bad. Just that they aren't actually necessary for a long and successful career, and aren't always going to be all that helpful to the employer, and the employer should be looking for traits more suitable for the job at hand.

If that job involves new game development, or writing new code to drive your computerized plant automation system, you probably want an experimenter. If the job involves security issues you want the paranoid. If it involves inventory or money or scheduling or sales or bean counting you want the guy that writes the cleanest code.

One size doesn't fit all.

Re:Passion is an overstatement ...

[ThatAblaze]

Passion is buzzwordish and an overstatement. However the better programmers that I have known over the decades have been those who have a genuine inherent interest in programming. They will read about software development, learn new languages and write some program on their own for nothing more than their own amusement or curiosity. Those who have never written any code outside of work or school tend not to be the better programmers.

Writing code for your own amusement without any purpose in mind is not a very logical way to spend your time. In many cases being a logical person that doesn't go off on unproductive tangents is a huge boon to writing good code. Only considering programmers that code in their free time is a little like only considering car mechanics that cruise the strip in their free time. Engaging in related activities in an unproductive way is hardly something you want your employees to be doing on the job.

Re:Passion is an overstatement ...

[master_kaos]

[quote] I suppose a buzzword compliant manager could have described me as "passionate" although I would have sued[/quote]
WOAH WOAH WOAH. Sorry sir we are going to have to let you go, here take this (small) severance package!

Re:Passion is an overstatement ...

[Megane]

Writing code for your own amusement without any purpose in mind is not a very logical way to spend your time.

Neither is sitting on a couch watching a bunch of grown men run around a field carrying and/or kicking a ball.

Re:Passion is an overstatement ...

[Cederic]

I'm sorry. I like programming. I like people giving me difficult problems to solve and giving them working solutions. It's fun. It's creative. It adds value. It gives me a sense of accomplishment, repeatedly.

Because I like programming I also want to keep getting better at it. I learn because I enjoy learning, and because it means I can solve even larger problems even more effectively.

I don't see the working day as a slog that I have to get through, I see it as a lucrative hobby. It's fun. If it wasn't fun, I'd go and do something else.

Is that passion? I don't know. I'd rather employ a programmer with that perspective than one that sees it as a more comfortable alternative to chopping down trees all day.

Re:Passion is an overstatement ...

[Reapy]

I feel the same as you about programming, when I don't do it for a week or so if I'm on vacation I get this weird itch to make something in my spare time...however, after I come home, I like doing other things too. I enjoy gaming, I enjoy movies, books, tv, or just going out to eat and talking with my family, making little miniatures, or working on a project around the house.

I recall a phone screening for a job where the guy asked what kind of PC set up I had at home, and I could tell he was dissatisfied when I told him I had one windows pc. I know I was supposed to say that I have 8 linux boxes with 15 servers automating my toaster and everything else in my home, I wasn't truly passionate about computing in his eyes, which is ludicrous since I have been on a computer everyday for the last 30 years. The guy seemed out there anyway so I thought of it honestly as dodging a bullet, but still.

Re:Passion is an overstatement ...

[Quirkz]

The guy reading every new text about programming and fiddling with every new programming language will sooner or later end up using YOUR project as a proving ground for HIS passion.

One of the happy coincidences in my life occurred when I needed to build a classroom reservation and scheduling tool for a university at the same time I was building an in-game auction tool for an RPG. There was a surprising amount over overlap in the code between the two, juggling calendars, users making claims on entries, placing restictions, etc. Just doing my day job, I could learn things that I'd need to re-apply in the evening, and testing in the game gave me insights that funneled back into the code for the day job. It was very satisfying.

Re:Passion is an overstatement ...

[noh8rz10]

-1 syntax fail, +10 manually typing html tags

Re:Passion is an overstatement ...

[DuckDodgers]

I have two points along those lines:

1. Writing software isn't like pumping gas, cleaning hotel rooms, or driving a delivery van. Unless you are a world class genius, even a very slight amount of effort devoted to self-improvement means that you will be able to write cleaner, less error prone, easier to read, easier to maintain, more flexible code every year than you did the year before. If you have zero interest in writing software outside your day job, I can be confident the code quality I get from you today will be the exact same I get from you in five years, ten years, or twenty years and you will be exactly as competent to handle any given task then as you are now. In certain tasks that's fine with me - provided you only ever want salary increases to match inflation.

2. In my own career, I've found that the better I became at writing software, documenting it, designing it, writing tests for it, using source control, setting up development environments, etc.... the more I enjoyed it. I phoned it in at my job from age 24-30, and the only thing that made me improve was getting assigned tasks outside my comfort zone when no one else at the company was available to bail me out. Then in my early 30s, I had a little bit of enjoyment in what I do and started reading Slashdot and Lambda the Ultimate and so forth. Now in my late 30s, I love my work. I may be an awful developer relative to most of the software developer population, I can't judge that accurately. But I am certain my skill today is dramatically superior to what it was five years ago, and in turn that's well beyond where it was ten years ago. So when I see someone that works in this field but never willingly learns new things or discusses ideas beyond exactly what is required for work, I believe in most cases it means they're not skilled enough to enjoy it.

I am not asking anyone to make writing software their sole passion or give up nights and weekends to read on the topic or write code on side projects. I don't do that myself. I read about one non-work-related technology book a year, or take one Coursera class, and tackle a few little personal projects (e.g. setting up a Minecraft server on a VPS for my kids). That is barely a hundred or two hundred hours of work related to my career outside the day job, but the payoff is enormous.

Re:Passion is an overstatement ...

[DuckDodgers]

Your analogy is wrong, a comparable mechanic would be one that fixes race cars in his spare time. And in both cases, the spare time work probably makes them better at their primary job.

Re:Passion is an overstatement ...

[Bengie]

How do you know if your code is any good without a goal and a way to test it? But hey, it's free time, do whatever you think is fun.

Re:Passion is an overstatement ...

[ThatAblaze]

Your analogy is wrong, a comparable mechanic would be one that fixes race cars in his spare time. And in both cases, the spare time work probably makes them better at their primary job.

No, if someone fixes race cars in their spare time would be compareable to someone who takes freelance work in their spare time. Fixing a car is a project that has a propose.

I suppose spare time programming could be likened to a mechanic who disassembles and then reassembles perfectly working cars in his free time, over and over again. It begs several questions: Can't you find enough useful things to work on in your day job? At what point do you decide that the current car you are working on is too boring and secretly start spending all your effort on some more interesting but purposeless project? I've seen too many programmers do that during working time. It makes me think twice about considering someone who has a whole lot of hobby projects to show.

you have to have passion

[ILongForDarkness]

It doesn't mean "live and breath" like it is worded IMO. You should love what you do and be happy (most of the time) to be at work though. I get very frustrated when working with people that have the opinion: who care's? Good enough it runs and passes unit tests. Refactorablity/beautiful code is a "nice to have". Business has a value on all metrics of a implementation of course but a lot of things are determined by giving a damn/having put in effort to learn new skills and thought to actually apply them in your work. When creating a generic solution would be just as performant and time consuming to implement but you don't bother because that wasn't in the feature description and isn't the way you learned how to do it 10 years ago in school and you can't be bothered to learn something new, you fail.

Part of being a professional is applying your special skills in the best interest of the client even when they might not be able to properly articulate all the intricacies of what they want. You need communication skills to get them to nail down exactly what they want as best as possible then you need to apply your judgement to make the best choices you can (as determined by their best interests). If you don't care you might as well be an if/then/else monkey because you add no extra value.

On the flipside of the issue: your employer shouldn't expect to dictate your personal interests: as in why are you spending 10 hours a week riding a bike when you could be using it to work on FOSS projects and learn stuff you can use here? Work is work, home is home. You should have passion at both and both will likely have some overlap but how much work blends into life isn't their business (though the opposite is since they are paying you for that time).

Re:Free overtime

[datavirtue]

Indeed. I work any amount of hours in order to do a good job--no a great job--and I enjoy it. I consider myself passionate, and good luck competing with me. Most do not have the ambition.

Arms race of words.

[jythie]

I know a lot of people are suggesting it is just a way to find people willing to work extra hours or put in their own time, but I think it might actually be something much simpler and less sinister, an arms race in adjectives.

How do you describe people who are into coding. Well, you can say you 'like' programming, but then the next person says they 'really like' programming. Well, now it sounds like they are more of a programmer, so you up your description to 'uber-like' programming, which then others do to seem baseline. This sets up an expectation in both reading and writing resumes regarding how one describes perfectly normal levels of caring about your work, with increasingly extreme imagery being used because everyone else is doing it to, and anyone who doesn't get into the race looks unenthusiastic in comparison even if just a year ago the same description would have looked good.

Re:Free overtime

[Anonymous Coward]

You also don't have a life. Good luck trying to recapture your youth when you're a burnt out middle-aged husk.

Good little Stakhanovites

[Animats]

What some employers want are Stakhanovites. Most don't really want "failure is not an option" types, who want off-site backup systems, fail-soft recovery, a Q/A organzation with the authority to delay deployment, expensive testing tools, automatic code analyzers... Most don't want programmers who polish their code until it's beautiful, like MIT students are taught.

I love what I do

[petes_PoV]

All of this stuff is merely emotional inflation. These days you can't just like something, you've got to love. Likewise, if something displeases you a little, you are said to hate it. Personally I find these extremes: black or white with no middle ground to be rather childish - like TV villains who are only bad, or heros who are only good. It might work in programmes where you only have 1 hour - or rather: 40 minutes + advertisements to introduce, flesh-out and conclude a story, but real people aren't like that and adopting TV-style dialog into real-life is misleading.

So to say you "love" programming is pointless. I'm sure people are drawn to some aspects of creating new software (though doing the documentation and the testing never seems to be those aspects) and occasionally actually like the feeling of creating something. But is that love? No of course it isn't. Love is (break out the violins) all-conquering, an emotion you would go to extreme lengths to preserve and protect.

If you really did "love" coding, you wouldn't have to be paid to do it. Maybe that's what employers are really looking for.

Re:I love what I do

[Darinbob]

I love programming, but that does not mean I love all programming or even like what I am programming for my job.
Look at it like art. One can be a lover of the arts, have gone to school to study art history, but then be bored and noncommital about a job creating greeting card images. Or you love literature but your job is writing technical publications.

Re:I love what I do

[petes_PoV]

An expert won't do routine. Similiar to how a 5-star chef won't work at mcDonalds.

No a 5* chef won't work at McD's. But they do still make burgers - and they are exceptional [ ref: Heston Blumenthal - one of his TV series ]. Although the principle doesn't transfer exactly: once high quality code is written once, it exists for all, unlike a burger. The problem is that there aren't sufficient (any?) 5* coders working in the FOSS world. As you say, they write what they like and as soon as they stop liking (either are asked to fix bugs, improve the security/error-handling, document the product, produce a Mk2, add a feature they don't use or think necessary) they stop doing it.

So the code they do produce might be of acceptable quality, but a 5* (or even 2*, for that matter) coder does more than just write code - they are professional enough to produce a software product, complete in all it's facets.

Just be professional.

[fahrbot-bot]

I like solving problems and my (usually system) software development and system administration tasks provide those kinds of activities. I'm rather good at them and get paid pretty well for my knowledge, experience and services. I always strive to do the best job I can do *and* the best job that can be done. I'm a professional. But outside that? If I never saw another computer again, that would be fine.

I have 27+ years experience on just about every kind of Unix platform known, from PC to Cray-2 (I know specifically that I have not used AUX and AIX) and many Windows systems. I routinely use about 10 programming languages. Those things are not me, just what I do. I'd rather spend my time being passionate about my actual life - and eventually keeping my last promise to my wife, 8 years ago last month, that I find someone else and be happy with her. (I'll get on that soon, Sue, I promise.)

Computers are a pain in the ass. Spend your time loving some one/thing else.

Job descriptions are self-selective

[quietwalker]

Who ends up writing these descriptions? The programmers? Their team lead? The architect? No. They just provide the job requirements.

It's your HR staff, your middle and upper management. They come up with corporate statements like "Engage our customers and employees with passionate, best of breed solutions and lead the mindshare" and that jumble of words has real meaning in their world. Now when they issue a statement, they're going to be asked things like "Does this grow our mindshare? Can you put a metric on the net 'passion' of this business decision?" This leaks through into their job descriptions among other places.

You've probably been exposed to this phenomenon before and come away confused; this world is about 90 degrees away from the norm - just enough suck you in with familiar words and phrases which only reinforces the alien nature when they're used to mean something totally other.

You ever get the question in an interview, "Where do you see yourself in 5 years?" - that comes from the same mindset.

Look at it from a business standpoint: If your company makes great sprockets, and you consistently make a million dollars in sprocket sales ... you've failed as a business. The metric isn't how much you make. It's not even how fast you make it. It's how fast you increase the rate you make it. So when they hire execs, they want them to say "in 5 years, I want to be the division manager of the newly created south pacific department, that I've built from the ground up" - or something. They don't want them to say "Valued for my professionalism, expertise and domain knowledge, doing the same job I've always done." That means they're somehow broken, that they just don't "get it."

You'll probably note that when they bring in non-administrators, those folks don't ask those questions unless they have no idea what they're doing hosting an interview. On the other hand, if the majority of your company is focused on high pressure sales - real estate, auto, etc - you'll be exposed to it more and more, even in support jobs like IT, and even from other engineers.

This is just one of those cases. If you're not in sales, marketing, middle-to-upper management, it's usually safe to ignore the parts of the job description that don't relate to your actual job. They likely have nothing to do with it.

See Negri, affective labor, others.

[aussersterne]

There's already a decent tradition in the social sciences examining the role that emotion increasingly plays as a resource to be allocated in economic systems. Affect becomes labor, across industries (not just software programming).

And yes, there is more than an Orwellian whiff about this. But it is what it is—companies hire great attitude, drive, belief, positivity, team spirit, etc. In several contracts I've been involved with, companies actually had metrics for positivity vs. negativity in meetings, communication, and so on, and this was a part of weekly evaluations. They want to see your Facebook page. Everyone knows that it matters whether you "present" well. People with a "great outlook" and "enthusiasm about the company" are routinely promoted over those that are more competent but perhaps dour. In fact, supremely-competent-but-dour is the butt of jokes (as Slashdot's conventional wisdom is already aware).

There is nothing more personal than one's emotion and affect; it is perhaps the most human thing about us in our day-to-day experiences, and the most individual. But more and more, it's a metric to be evaluated, a "property" of yourself as a system that must be managed to remain compatible with the company. To some extent this makes sense in an increasingly rationalized world—what's in your head is a black box. Your interactive style and self-presentation on a moment-by-moment basis are effectively your API. So efficiency dictates that a certain predictability, compatibility, and growth-oriented, team-oriented set of assumptions will be valued, and thus, ought to be "implemented" by you as the manager of your own API.

At the same time, what good is a world in which nobody can have a bad day or a personal opinion on anything? In which your bank balance is directly correlated to your ability to feel the emotions that your boss has outlined for employees in the company handbook?

Is it really so great to live in an efficient and productive world that is ultimately lacking in what Hannah Arendt called humans' intrinsic "natality," the ability to do and feel something new, something individual, something that is an emergent property of the extremely complex phenomenon that is the self?

It's a bummer. (And of course, this very post is precisely the kind of post that they warn you about in the popular press, in articles about how "what you say on the internet will always be there" and future HR managers might exclude you for a position because of it, i.e. because of your negativity and clear lack of cooperation with basic emotion-and-opinion suppression culture.)

Of course, one group is exempt from these restrictions: the wealthy. They can say what they want, since as a matter of power relations, they are central in the system. Others (with less money) must amend their emotional style to be compatible with the rich, the powerful, the CEO, the venture capitalist. These latter people get to say and feel whatever is on their mind or in their gut, unlike the rest of us. And, irony of ironies, they are broadly applauded for it, no matter how extreme, atypical, or mundane the positions. The rest of us would simply be fired.

Re:See Negri, affective labor, others.

[SigmoidCurve]

These latter people get to say and feel whatever is on their mind or in their gut, unlike the rest of us. And, irony of ironies, they are broadly applauded for it, no matter how extreme, atypical, or mundane the positions. The rest of us would simply be fired.

I feel the same way about TED talks. Just because it's a goddam TED talk, everyone treats it as effing gospel. Half of that shit is rehashed from pulp 1980s management self-help books. Someone sends me a link, "Hey, check out this TED talk, it's awesome!" And I say, "Dude, I said the same thing on my blog like 5 years ago", and they're like "yeah, but this is a TED talk."

Development Leadership

[mtippett]

Some comments and views here... Some people won't like, :). Some management theory thrown into the mix too.

First, performance is driven by a mixture of ability and motivation (google two-factor performance). The ability is (relatively easily) measured and difficult to fake. Motivation is intensely personal and very hard to measure, motivation is very easy to fake. When interviewing or selecting staff, you look for people who have an overt demonstration about the motivation. The want for passion is a call for an overt demonstration of motivation.

Second, the barriers to entry for the software world is very low, professional accreditation isn't needed and generally isn't need to be renewed. This leads to a very inconsistent and bumpy collection of development skill. How do you sift through this? You look for the developers that show a strong and overt interest. They should at least be average, if not strong. If anyone could be a building architect, you would look for people either with a name and a track record, or you would look for someone that is always building models.

Third, the software world has a lot of contributors, but few leaders (either management or technical leaders). With few anointed or emergent leaders, you don't have the basis for leading teams. The emergent leaders are hard to spot initially. So again you look for overt passion and opinions. These will be uneven leaders (tech depth, not necessarily mentoring, no best practices).

These three represent the primary gaps in the industry that I see that makes the fallback position is to look for people who show passion. The theory is that passion has to be present and you can shape other deficiencies. Of course the paradox is that these people typically have such a strong opinion that the shaping is difficult or impossible.

Soft skills are fun ! :).

touchy-feely HR people?

[Phase Shifter]

I hear you. Back when I was looking for a job I had similar problems.

I'm a chemist. I've spent years studying various types of chemistry. Chemistry is something I do--sometimes in the lab with actual chemicals, and other times on paper when I'm thinking about what to do in the lab. So naturally the word "chemistry" will be part of several phrases on my resume, and will be used in search engines to find matching jobs.

Now, you've had problems with touchy-feely HR people demanding that you be "enthusiastic" or even "in love with" you chosen work. But me? I got a crapload of irrelevant "matches" based on the word "chemistry".
Apparently this same school of touchy-feely HR thought gives me a 99% false positive rate on job searches, because everyone is looking for someone "with the right chemistry to join us."

Attention HR people: You expect a certain amount of professionalism from me if I'll be working for your company. I expect the same from you. Quit writing job descriptions like you're planning to use them as an OKCupid profile.

Re:touchy-feely HR people?

[mrchaotica]

On a related note, please stop calling every damn job title an "architect" or an "engineer." Engineers are people who have PE (or EIT) licenses.

"Sales engineers" are not engineers, they're salespeople. "Software engineers" are not engineers, they're programmers (or maybe "software developers," although that probably pisses off people looking for jobs in real estate). "Support Engineers" are not engineers, they're tech support clerks. "Test Engineers" are not engineers, they're QA.

I was looking at a job listing email for "Engineering/Architecture" and 22 out of the 24 listings were programming jobs (and one was for sales). This is fucking goddamn ridiculous!

Re:touchy-feely HR people?

[dlingman]

If you've got touchy feelly HR people, they're probably ripe for a sexual harassment suit soon.

It's just advertising ...

[MacTO]

These descriptions rarely say anything about the employers expectations of the employee. They are intended to attract a pool of qualified candidates.

Just as some job seekers have trouble finding work because they have trouble setting themselves apart in businesses with a large pool of applicants, some businesses have trouble finding employees because they have trouble setting themselves apart from a large pool of potential employers. In order to attract applicants, they try to use more appealing language since a lot of applicants are looking for job satisfaction rather than something that simply uses their skills.

Wake up HR noobs

[xednieht]

Programming software is a means to end... that end being huge stacks. Want my eyes to light up about programming? Want me to do hop on my desk and do the dance of joy for programming? Then add a few more 0's salary and a few more days to my PTO. Do that and I'll be happy as a clam and program 'till my fingers wear down to nubs.

Companies aren't passionate about you...

[fahrbot-bot]

It's worth noting that regardless of how passionate you are about your work and job, your company will fire you in a hot second if it serves them best for even just the next minute.

Re:Companies aren't passionate about you...

[Dracolytch]

If you honestly feel that this is how your company will treat you, quit. Keep quitting until you find a manager you can trust.

Re:Companies aren't passionate about you...

[fahrbot-bot]

If you honestly feel that this is how your company will treat you, quit. Keep quitting until you find a manager you can trust.

All companies will treat their employees as disposable whenever it comes down to it. To think otherwise is naive. In larger companies, it's often not even up to the manager, but HR, the contract manager, ... and on up.

Ultimately, the importance is: stockholders, customers, employees.

Re:Companies aren't passionate about you...

[Dracolytch]

I've worked for a number of companies. Many have treated their employees as disposable. Some have not. I've lasted much longer, and done better work, at those that have not. I've found that working for companies that don't have stockholders much preferable to those companies that do. The best places I've worked are a) non-profits (Again, the paycheck is only 95% of high-end competitive. 5% is a price I'm willing to pay for a non-shit work environment), and b) Companies small enough that you actually know the owner.

I've been through that, almost 8 years ago.

[Slime-dogg]

I interviewed, scored well technically and got along with everyone in both interviews. I interested them. I didn't get the job. The reasoning? They wanted someone that spent their off-hours doing development work.

At the time, I was disappointed. They were doing interesting stuff, like streaming video over satellites using the .NET framework. I was a budding mid-level then. I would have been a cheap developer for them. I would have learned quite a bit as well. What I understand now, however, is that they probably wanted to know if they could overload me with work. They were likely looking for someone who was willing to work evenings and weekends, without the extra pay.

Looking back, I'm glad that I did not get hired. I value my free time, and I do not spend it in complete passionate pursuit of development. I read about stuff every now and then, and do some home projects, but I find that I'm far more useful at work when I haven't been focusing on the same stuff at home.

Re:I've been through that, almost 8 years ago.

[Cutting_Crew]

some people have like wives and kids..ya know families. So when its time to get off work, family should be #1. not coding when ive already been coding all day. That doesnt mean that you cant do 'something' on the side but of course there was no definition of 'coding in their spare time' when the amount of spare time could mean 4 or 5 hours a week or less.

Not convinced I'd want "passionate" programmers

[QuietLagoon]

Passion is driven by emotion, not facts.

.
I'd want programmers that are driven to write quality software based upon factual reasons, not emotional ones.

In fact, the last thing I would want in a software engineering department is someone who is overly emotional.

Re:Not convinced I'd want "passionate" programmers

[funwithBSD]

I find your lack of faith... disturbing.

Re:Not convinced I'd want "passionate" programmers

[QuietLagoon]

What lack of faith are you speaking about?

passionate about programming, or the product?

[clovis]

Are (were) these people "passionate" about programming?

http://www.fastcompany.com/281...

I don't know; I wasn't there. I think they were passionate about how their product turned out, but passionate about writing code?

I've known people that were passionate about their "product". They were great to work with when they had a good idea and they got their way, and hell to work with when they had a bad idea, whether or not they got their way. Match one of those up with a boss that has no bs filter, and, well, now you're not having fun anymore.

Another thing about that sort of question. I do believe that a well-run company would look at the psych profiles to see if applicants (and existing workers) are a best fit for their kind of job. But from what little I know about industrial psychology, it is generally worse than useless to just openly ask people that kind of question with one exception. That exception is if the job requires a bs artist or sociopath such as sales.

Anecdote: The best programmer I ever knew was highly productive - one of those people who would sit motionless for 10 minutes and then write nearly perfect and documented code for hours as fast as anyone could type. I mean like 10-20 times as productive as the next best programmer in the shop.
This person would not work after five PM or Saturday except under greatest duress. (Why me? Make the slow people work late; maybe they can catch up.)
This person was a perfectionist about everything but passionate about coding? Oh hell no.

In my experience

[stox]

The fastest development comes from a group of motivated individuals who are almost all the same (ie. background, experience, language preference, o/s preference)

The most robust development comes from the most diverse teams.

Rarely does fast = robust, or vice versa.

I have passion...

[braindrainbahrain]

for vegetables!

Two different questions:

[seebs]

1. Passionate about programming.
2. Passionate about programming this in particular.

I'm in general passionate about programming. You cannot easily stop me from programming. I do it habitually and constantly.

Doesn't mean I particularly care about any given task I'm working on. What it does mean is that I have the level of competence that comes from doing a thing you love for >20 years, which is valuable in its own right. If I'm feeling sorta under the weather and I work five hours before I say "screw it, I'm not feeling like working on this", I am still gonna produce better output from that work day than someone who doesn't care about programming will produce from working ten hours because they're obsessed with their job. ... actually, the biggest improvement I've made in my work in the last decade was learning to recognize when I am just Not Getting Traction, and just walk away. Yeah, I'm "working" less, except that the rate of stupid and easily-avoided errors has dropped enough to more than make up for it.

Re:Its across the board...

[MichaelSmith]

When I was out of work recently I had to do dozens of IQ tests as a part of job applications. Eventually I got good enough at the tests to land a job. I must have a really impressive IQ now!

Talk Normal excerpt

[braindrainbahrain]

While it has never been more important to be passionate, there's not so much to be passionate about.
From [a study on UK supermarkets] on 'The realities of leadership': 'Almost every aspect of work for every kind of employee,
from shopfloor worker to the general store manager, was set out, standardised and occasionally scripted by the experts at head office.' ...fewer of us have much influence over how to do our daily tasks than before...even though we're regularly told by our employers, our business magazines and our television software adverts that work is a place of exploration and fulfillment.

So, what is left for managers to manage? Primarily the answer is 'people management': motivating, beginning with 'getting the day started' meetings they concentrate on meeting targets by, as one manager put it, 'ensuring they (staff) are motivated, trained, they're quick to do the job, and hyped up, and they're going to go out there and deliver'.

Excerpted from the book "Talk Normal: Stop the Business Speak, Jargon and Waffle" by Tim Phillips

I used to be passionate about programming

[DaveAtFraud]

Now, after 30+ years in technology jobs, I'm pretty jaded. About the only time I get passionate about programming anymore is when I'm doing something for either myself or a friend or coworker. The saddest part is that the stuff I program for coworkers usually isn't part of my official job. S-I-G-H.

Cheers,
Dave

I won't hire you if you're like that

[Opportunist]

I don't want people who go home after work and continue to work on their (coding) projects. Neither do I want people who think that working 100 hours a week is productive. It's not. I want you to work 40-50 hours a week (depending on workload) and aside of those 40 or 50 hours I'd prefer if you don't even touch a computer. Ok, tough luck with the kind of nerds we are, but the very last thing I want you is to go home and do the same you do in here. Go home and relax. Unwind. Recharge your batteries. Get outside and check whether grass is still green. Or meet up with friends and get drunk if that's more your thing.

It takes 3-6 months for someone in my team to be a fully integrated member. It is rather complicated to get into the flow and essentially I pay you for nothing in those first 3 months you're here. Worse, I'll most likely lose the productivity of at least another one of my people because he needs to hold your hand. The whole shit IS that complicated, and no matter how "good" or "experienced" you are, we're dealing with a lot of shit here that is hard to simply learn from a documentation. And that's even aside of all the clearance crap where we have to physically cart your carcass to a place to prove that you're really you and that you're supposed to get access that swallows quite a bit of time as well.

And the VERY LAST thing I need is that after 6 months when I can FINALLY start using you, you drop out with a burnout. Any kind of tenure under 2 years is most likely costing us more than hiring you got us. And while we certainly are in a rather unique position, it's not that different from most other jobs where programming is an important aspect. It takes time, and depending on the complexity of the project it can take a LOT of time, until a new team member is at a sensible efficiency level. Every new guy not only is unproductive the first time, he also takes away time from an experienced member who is needed to teach and explain.

Hire and fire is deadly in the programming area. And companies either learn that fast or they will eventually perish.

Send us your github handle

[bored]

The first time I saw that, I thought it was a cold idea.. It filters out the people who can't code and don't have little hobby projects to sharpen their skills.

Then I got thinking about it..

My git hub account has like 1 thing on it, my sourceforge has 3 or 4 abandoned projects (a couple with a fair number of downloads too). And I have dozens and dozens that never made it to the see if anyone else can use it stage.

What does that tell a potential employer? I can't finish projects? Well that isn't what happens at work, I do the fun stuff and I trudge through the boring parts of supporting and maintaining it too. That is why its work...

Now I have a family, and that seriously eats into the time I have for hobby projects (especially if I work 60 hours), leaving what? The time I'm at work? Unless your google working on a hobby project at work is a major NO NO.

So, really what are they getting from your github account? That your unemployed and have time to spend maintaining an open source project? That you don't have a family life, or instead of working 60 hours at your job you work 40 and spend 20 hours on a hobby project?

In the end, I'm betting most of the people who have large active projects on github that aren't their day jobs, don't actually make very good employees.

to be honest...

[buddyglass]

I find people who are that "passionate" about code to be annoying. I mean...wow...have some perspective. Be passionate about your family. Be passionate about justice. Be passionate about music. Be passionate about doing quality work (including when your "work" is coding). But I don't get the infatuation with programming per se.

I used to be passionate about what I do

[DarthVain]

What it really means is management will take advantage of you to preform all sorts of activities outside or your pay grade without any additional compensation.

Management has gradually beaten whatever passion I had out of me. There are still times when on principle about some topic or another I find myself becoming passionate again, and I have to actively remind myself not to care.

Devoting all spare time to programming ...

[perpenso]

Passion is buzzwordish and an overstatement. However the better programmers that I have known over the decades have been those who have a genuine inherent interest in programming. They will read about software development, learn new languages and write some program on their own for nothing more than their own amusement or curiosity. Those who have never written any code outside of work or school tend not to be the better programmers.

Writing code for your own amusement without any purpose in mind is not a very logical way to spend your time. In many cases being a logical person that doesn't go off on unproductive tangents is a huge boon to writing good code. Only considering programmers that code in their free time is a little like only considering car mechanics that cruise the strip in their free time. Engaging in related activities in an unproductive way is hardly something you want your employees to be doing on the job.

No one said anything about people who devote all their spare time to programming. Only those who have never devoted any spare time to programing were mentioned. I'm just stating a correlation that I observed over decades that those who were the better programmers also tended to be those who read about software development and did a little coding on the side when they had the spare time, when they were at a point in life where they had some spare time. Some of these very same programmers who did a little hobbyist coding on the side are also people I have been scuba diving, camping, rafting, etc with. Others had various indoor hobbies that they also indulged in. But occasionally they all did a little reading or coding too.

Re:Its across the board...

[curunir]

The reason passion matters for developers is the speed at which our industry changes. For someone working if a field with fewer changes than ours, going to school and learning how to do the job can be enough. But for a developer, staying qualified for the job requires a commitment to continually better yourself. You have to read up on the newest technologies, trends and methodologies on an ongoing basis...and most employers aren't willing to have you do it during work.

This is why they're looking for people who passionately love developing. Those are the people that spend half their time away from work hacking on personal projects where they're free from any constraint around technology selection or architecture that might be imposed at work. What you're looking for is someone who views writing code as almost a form of play. That's what they mean by passionate...that intrinsic motivation that doesn't need to be cultivated, because companies are terrible at making employees grow their skills and even worse at monitoring those changes in employees....it's just simpler to screen for it in the interview process.

sometimes...

[iceaxe]

Sometimes I feel like my fire hose of passion is directed into a black hole of greed. Every passing year I keep turning up the pressure and getting nothing more in return. In fact, less.

The well will run dry one day.

In the sushi world we have a word for passionate..

[p00kiethebear]

In the sushi world we have a word for passionate chefs... It's 'shokunin' You'll find in Japanese dictionaries that it's defined as 'artisan' but the connotation implies so much more. A shokunin comes to work and does the same task every religiously. Relentlessly trying to improve his technique. He cares only for perfection. Where other people see 'work' he sees 'duty.' He wipes his knife clean after every cut. When he cooks rice he removes or adds half a tablespoon of water at a time to ensure the amount of water is correct. He sharpens his eyes over years and carefully learns to identify and pull parasites from fresh fish, making them safe to eat. He cooks perfect folded eggs in a square pan never allowing it to burn at any place and ensuring each layer is evenly folded and cooked. He takes no breaks until the last customers is served. He works because, more than money, more than fun or pleasure, he desires to be better. Not only does he practice the physical techniques, he sees socializing with the customers over the counter as a skill to be practiced. His conduct and comportment do not waiver inside or outside of the restaurant (his temple) At my restaurant I may hire an average sushi chef to make rolls or to prepare fish in the back. But the person I hire for working behind the bar, unless he's my personal apprentice that has learned to work the way I had to, I would only hire a shokunin. When he works there he represents my business and my restaurant and I know he will outside of work in his daily life as well. Passion is important. But I would never pretend to say that passion was required for the easier and less formal jobs, some people just need a paycheck and as long as their work is good, I can respect that. The person who's responsible for putting a face to the company must be a master.

Apple Radio Ad: Drink the Kool-Ade!

[IgnorantMotherFucker]

I still have the very first Apple Developer CD. I wasn't a registered developer then I found it in a used music store! It has an audio file on it with a radio ad that Apple used to play around Silicon Valley, seeking to attract engineers. Something like "Work for Apple Computer and you can change the world!" I don't doubt that Apple changed the world, but note how many job board posts you see from companies claiming that they'll change the world. In some cases the founders are being unrealistic, in some cases they're trying to pull the wool over the eyes of potential applicants. "Work for PHB Inc. and you can change the World!"

Just a little indulgence in curiosity or amusement

[perpenso]

Meanwhile the guy coding up his own game engine nights and weekends burns himself out, arrives with a fried brain, and your project suffers.

I am not referring to people who spend all their evenings and weekends on some personal project. I am referring to people who had used some of their spare time, when they had some, to read something development related or to do some coding.

Sometimes this was done precisely because their day to day work was insufficiently challenging. One guy I knew was working on a legacy project that was pure C. For fun he spent a little time learning smalltalk. He was also someone I occasionally went scuba diving with. We met at his house early one morning for a dive, double checked our gear and loaded it into his truck. Before driving to the beach we called a dive shop as soon as they opened. We learned that the conditions sucked. We unloaded our gear from his truck and I spent a couple of hours geeking out as he showed me some smalltalk. Different hobbies for different days and different moods.

When I refer to some after hours coding I am not referring to any great or grand projects. Just a little indulgence in curiosity or amusement.

I also think that the more challenging home project helped preserve this guy's morale at work. Made the less challenging day job more tolerable, his itch was getting scratched elsewhere.

Not saying that a healthy interest in programming techniques and after hours involvement in coding projects are bad. Just that they aren't actually necessary for a long and successful career

I'm not saying a complete lack of ever having had an after hours coding project is a career killer. I am just noting a correlation between the better programmers and those who on occasion when circumstances permitted had indulged an inherent interest in programming.

Am I the only one who disagrees?

[Xacid]

"Grimm says, 'I love code. I dream of code. I enjoy code. I find writing high quality code deeply satisfying. I feel the same way about helping others write code they can feel proud of."

How is that not passionate?

Anywho, I feel like everyone who is bashing on the desire for passion has just become so jaded in a Dilbert-world that it's just ripped that passion out of them.

Here's my stance though - I'm a huge fan of the passion criteria. It's not the only thing we're looking for but it's a major component. Why? Because we can always train technical skills. Personalities we can't really tweak too much. We need tinkerers, people who like solving problems, who can be geeks like the rest of us. This focus has created a really awesome culture here where innovation is more than some corporate buzzword for more money. We actually just want to make cool shit because we think it's cool. We're all compensated just fine for our efforts. What's awesome is being able to say "what if we..." and being able to find someone who can get as excited to work on this as you are. Now, this is a quality we all look for within our teams so it's not JUST some management demand - and maybe this is what the difference is?

MODS

[TapeCutter]

[T]he most important emotional stance to have with respect to code is to care about the people who will depend upon that code

Sometimes a low uid does signify wisdom, this is one of those times.

You might want to think about expenses and taxes

[GodfatherofSoul]

You're not really talking about the same issue my post is. My post was referring to the idea that relatively small raises aren't that big a deal for people; e.g. the $50K I talked about.

As for your $1M figure...you'll probably get max $650K of that $1M after taxes. Pay off the house and car, that's maybe $500K left? You going to life the rest of your life off $500K? As the sibling poster said, if you want to really retire off a windfall you'd better have several million that you can invest, then live off the interest.

And decent hardware

[NotSoHeavyD3]

Because of course slogans are where it's at. Not a decent laptop to replace my old one which stops every 30 seconds because it can't handle the antivirus and other bloatware that corporate has dumped on my current laptop.(In all seriousness there's no reason to not give the developers decent machines since giving them shit machines only frustrates us and makes us develop more slowly with more mistakes.)

Dreaming of my work

[drolli]

If i would start to dream of my work, the i would change the job. I love coding/solving simulation problems. I am pretty good at it, and i dont give up once i decided to solve a problem. Because i like to do the best i can. But i would be fucking scared of a company which ask me to be "enthousiatic" about my code.

My hiring philosophy

[uvajed_ekil]

I don't have a need/desire/ability to hire coders, but I do hire people for other jobs. I honestly don't give a damn if they have "passion" for doing what I need them to do. What I do is try to be open about what is expected, which is to complete projects correctly and on time, while not bringing personal drama into the work place. I am friendly enough (I think) and I want them all to succeed and have a good time, and if work is enjoyable, so much the better, but what it comes down to is if you do quality work, you continue to be paid for doing it, period.

I don't need employees who double as cheerleaders, just competent people who take their jobs seriously and come to work ready and willing to work. After all, it is work and most of us won't do it without reasonable compensation. If my dad taught me one useful lesson about work it is that your employment need not (perhaps should not) define you as a person, and it should certainly not run your life. I suppose if you are passionate about painting or something and can support yourself solely via that, then passion is in order, but if you are working for someone else it is a little crazy to have a 24x7, job-first mentality.

Unrealistic budget and bad quality kills

[presidenteloco]

Good coders don't kill projects/products. Management that promises twice as much in half the time kills projects/products.
Even if developers get it done on time, you can be sure it will not be cost-effective to adapt or maintain the software as needed,
so death / outcompeted will come soon anyway.

That said, I would settle for truly competent developers over passionate ones. It can be hard to keep passionate ones focussed on the company's product, especially if their most fundamental ideas about it are turned down. They will find another outlet for their creativity in that case.

Competence is essential however, and is very hard to find, perhaps everywhere outside of Silicon Valley's insane salaries.
In my experience, a development team is like a volleyball team. One mediocre coder working in there and the whole team drops the ball. Because you can't recover from bad code in your project. Switching metaphors, bad code is cancerous. Not only won't it do the right thing, but it will solidify into an unchangeable lump, and it will weaken everyone else as they struggle to save the surrounding tissue through heroic measures.

It's a perk!

[Ukab the Great]

Golden showers are the new free laundry service.

True motivation: challenge, mastery, purpose

[Paul Fernhout]

according to Dan Pink: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...
"RSA Animate - Drive: The surprising truth about what motivates us --- This lively RSA Animate, adapted from Dan Pink's talk at the RSA, illustrates the hidden truths behind what really motivates us at home and in the workplace. Watch the full lecture here: http://www.thersa.org/events/v... "

Maybe asking for "passionate" programmers to do mundane tasks is a sign of supply/demand issues for programmers? So, perhaps many employers think they can demand more and more from a large number of programmers? That may be made worse by our overall mainstream economy continues its death spiral of lower wages leading to lower demand leading to lower wages etc.? Contrast with how things were like in the 1970s when there were very few programmers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C...
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/com...
"It must have been about 1973. Life at IBM was good, and I was busy doing whatever it is that engineers did then. Suddenly, in the life of our project, something came up that called for a computer program that did not exist, and I was asked to create it. My boss knew I'd never written a program before; not unusual since in those days there were very few engineers who knew how to program. ..."

Of course, that was back when more companies were willing to invest significantly in employee education and career development... Back when US labor was stronger politically and before trickle-down neoliberal economics, deregulation, offshoring, H1Bs, and lowered taxes on the wealthy and corporations became popular ideas (even though ironically the US economy overall has gotten worse and worse for more and more people the more these ideas are adopted). Still, there are always exceptions of organizations or parts of organizations (like "skunkworks") that embrace the ideas Dan Pink talks about.

When human obstacles ask me stupid questions I...

[couchslug]

...tell them whatever lie will serve me.

They just forfeited any claim to my respect and are now prey.

Re:Alan

[real-modo]

No. Money is about number six.

The saying is: you join a company, and leave a manager.

Re:In the sushi world we have a word for passionat

[Anonymous Coward]

Sushi chefs would have to relearn entire species every 5ish years and have to change their tools just as often if they were parallel to software development. Plus their chopping boards would be varying in real-time, as would the customers' orders.

That's what got me out of the industry.

If it takes 10000 hours to achieve mastery, you're looking at 3-5 years of full-time work. From 1980-1985, I went from "what's a computer, Dad?" to knowing everything that was going on under the hood of a PET/Apple/C64/6502-based machine. From then to 1990, I got to know the PC very well, but not down to the bare metal. From 1990-2000, it was Win on the side and Solaris/UNIX/Linux. Somewhere between 2000-2010 I noticed the rate of change was accelerating beyond my ability to keep up. The lifespan of stdio.h was measured in decades -- and although Java and Javascript have had similar lifespans, nobody codes down to that level. It's all framework-of-the-year, and nothing seems to have a lifespan longer than 2-3 years. Competency is easy, but before you've reached mastery, the technology you were trying to master has been deprecated before you get close.

My solution was unorthodox. I threw up my hands, quit the industry, and will slowly draw down my savings over the next 20-30 years to master a few things that interest me. I probably haven't even found those things yet, but for the first time in my life, I have all the time in the world.

Not a single company will profit a whit from whatever I end up mastering. That's their loss, not mine. I will put a bullet in my brain before I go back to working for a living.

Forgot game night when programming

[hooiberg]

I had planned a game night with friends I had not seen in a while, last Friday night. I was looking forward to seeing them and even talked about it with one of those friends two days before the game night. But on the evening in question I was programming so obsessively that I completely forgot it. Only remembered the next Saturday morning. So I guess I am a passionate programmer. Still not happy about it.

It's one of those inane things...

[steve.cri]

... Human Ressources types are paid for to think of. Make sure the employees do not sell only their times, but make sure they sell their souls. I hate this shit. I never got a job were a HR guy was on my job interview, and I don't think I missed much there.

Some companies DO walk the walk, but they're rare

[maiden_taiwan]

I've been at a "passionate programmer" e-commerce company for over 10 years. Their definition of "passionate" (of which apparently there are many) is a developer who doesn't simply convert a request into code, but who will also think intelligently about the larger (difficult) business problem and focus on it. When your client says "Build me a proprietary streaming video server," the ordinary programmer starts taking specs for it, whereas the passionate one asks to learn about the business problem being solved. Then you learn that the video server is for playing instructional/motivational videos for the salespeople. So the real business problem is an unmotivated sales force, and a "video server" is not necessarily the only solution. Now you can have a discussion about other solutions.

I'm sure some readers will immediately jump up with counterexamples and pessimism... how the other person won't want to hear about your alternatives because they're threatened, etc. but I have been living this life now for 10+ years at the same mid-sized company and it's real. And yes, I am paid well for it, and so are my direct reports. And no, I rarely need to work evenings or weekends, and neither do my direct reports. And we all get free food. And the company is consistently profitable.

From all the vitriol I've been reading here today, I get the impression my company is extremely rare. Guess I'll stay for another 10!

As long as it looks like magic...

[frankenpc510]

people will surround it with strange chants and offerings. We need to remember that programming looks completely alien to most people. It's a lot easier to quantify a job when you can imagine actually doing it.

Get real.

[NewYork]

Unlike in Capitalism, you need to be a highly skilled wage slave to get/retain a job in Globalization.

Re:Management bonuses

[curunir]

Bonus targets are set by level and there are equivalencies between engineers and managers. My manager classification corresponds to a Staff Engineer (which I was, prior to becoming a manager). Bonus targets are a percentage of salary, and my salary is only slightly higher than the rest of the team (though, again, my salary hasn't really gone up much since I switched to management). There is a concerted effort to ensure that the pay structure and career path doesn't force people to stop being engineers. An engineer maxes out at Fellow, which is a VP-level equivalency. The bonuses are really pretty transparent and it's the same for managers and engineers, everyone knows their bonus target percentage, salary and then the formula takes into account company performance, BU performance and the rating that the manager submits based on his/her own assessment and peer reviews. The bonus targets for each level aren't made public, but once people get bumped up once or twice, it's pretty easy to extrapolate.

The one area where there is an almost complete lack of transparency is in equity awards. The annual equity awards are based on two manager ratings, only one of which is shared with the employee. The other rating, retention, focuses not on how indispensable, how hirable and how likely to leave an employee is. This is kept secret because it could encourage counter-productive employee behavior like threatening to leave and siloing (trying to horde knowledge of a particular component rather than sharing it with coworkers).

Is that what you were looking for?

HR Bullshit

[bbsalem]

I think this job description of "passionate" is HR department and executive bullshit, meaningless fluff intended to discourage skepticism. How many people would dare to hire someone who is the opposite of a team player, whose attitude is "Prove to me that you are not full of Bullshit"? Damn few, even though many operations, including some of the most famous could use a BS monitor, someone who is skeptical, someone who challenges assumptions and decisions. There aren't enough skeptics. least of all among the VCs and investors. I'd love to kick some asses in tech,

work smarter, not harder

[abramN]

I think the "passion for coding" jargon in job advertisements is also code for "we know we're crappy planners, so we will probably have you working extra hours on an architecture with modules that will ultimately end up unused or completely reworked."

British Comedian David Mitchell's take

[belg4mit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

Passion or your life?

[tonyx12]

Well there is a sad, veiled message in this, having experience this in the top IBs on Wall street. ' We expect you to work 11-12 hours a day. (have no life). and if you do go back home, try to show your interest by programming at home too,whether its java, or C++. Even read all the books on C++ 11 , though most of them don't use it. many interviewers actually ask what you program at home (since you have to love programming). A lot of them expect or require you to be a programmer 24/7. ' For a senior programmer with 10+ years experience the expectation it practically eat, sleep, code/fix issues. It also has to do with the greatly reduced headcounts after 2008. Programming at highly paid jobs isn't a job anymore, its your life. At that rate you don't have a choice - you dream code.

How Great Leaders Inspire Action

[Mr10001]

This seem entirely relevant, enjoy. http://www.ted.com/talks/simon...

all your life are belong to us.

[gzuckier]

all your life are belong to us.