Lauri Love Ruling 'Sets Precedent' For Trying Hacking Suspects in UK (theguardian.com)

A high court ruling blocking extradition to the US of Lauri Love, a student accused of breaking into US government websites, has been welcomed by lawyers and human rights groups as a precedent for trying hacking suspects in the UK in future. From a report: The decision delivered by the lord chief justice, Lord Burnett of Maldon, is highly critical of the conditions Love would have endured in US jails, warning of the risk of suicide. Lawyers for the 33-year-old, who lives in Suffolk, had argued that Love should be tried in Britain for allegedly hacking into US government websites and that he would be at risk of killing himself if sent to the US. There was cheering and applause in court on Monday when Burnett announced his decision. He asked supporters to be quiet, saying: "This is a court, not a theatre." In his judgment, Burnett said: "It would not be oppressive to prosecute Mr Love in England for the offences alleged against him. Far from it. Much of Mr Love's argument was based on the contention that this is indeed where he should be prosecuted

Comments

Keep away from Ndamukong Suh BOOSE!

[Anonymous Coward]

   

Why would he be extradited in the first place?

[Anonymous Coward]

Pardon my ignorance on law but if he committed the crime in the UK then why try and extridite him in the first place? I thought extradition was only if you committed a crime in a country and then left by the time they wanted to prosecute you.

Re:Why would he be extradited in the first place?

[jellomizer]

The computers that were attacked were on US Soil. So the crime was committed in the US.

Re:Why would he be extradited in the first place?

[Anonymous Coward]

But the criminal act was committed in the UK.

Re:Why would he be extradited in the first place?

[tsstahl]

Sooo, if I gamble online and the server is in Elbonia, I'm not breaking any US laws? 'Cuz the U.S. government does not agree.

Only point being, international jurisdiction is about as grey as gray can be, no matter how you spell it.

Re:Why would he be extradited in the first place?

[Anonymous Coward]

The computers that were attacked were on US Soil. So the crime was committed in the US.

It doesn't matter which side of the border the victim was on, it's where the perpetrator was that matters.

Put it this way: if some yahoo fires a gun in the US and the bullet kills someone in Mexico (or Canada, I suppose, but there seem to be more trigger-happy gun owners closer to the southern border), how quick do you think the US would be to hand the murdering twat over to Mexico?

Re:Why would he be extradited in the first place?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not that I disagree with the ruling (US courts/prisons are a mess), but crimes are generally prosecuted where the offense occurs. For example if you are standing on the border in Ohio but shoot at someone across the border in Pennsylvania you're most likely going to end up being prosecuted in Pennsylvania. Shooting the gun isn't necessarily the crime (in this case using a computer) but the bullets whizzing past (or even hitting) someone is.

Re:Why would he be extradited in the first place?

[wonkey_monkey]

If some gringo in Mexico fires a gun across the border and kills someone in the US, how rabidly do you think they'd pursue extradition?

Re:Why would he be extradited in the first place?

[halivar]

Well, if it's a "gringo" in Mexico, he's probably an American, so the analogy is even muddier.

Re:Why would he be extradited in the first place?

[fafalone]

The US just does as it wants. There's other things that could legal in your home US state, legal in Elbonia, but if you travel there to do them, you can be imprisoned by the US for years, because of federal extraterritorial enforcement.

Re:Why would he be extradited in the first place?

[Anonymous Coward]

The court of appeals seems to disagree with you.

The only reason the USA wanted this guy extradited is because they wanted to hurt him. They knew that in a trial in the UK ran the risk of handing out a punishment proportionate to his crime, and wanted to abuse the extradition process to exact revenge for making them look stupid. Seriously: if this one dude could hack their systems, they must have already got turned inside out by literally every foreign intelligence agency.

Forcing someone (especially someone with an autistic spectrum disorder) to stand trial in on the other side of the world from their support network purely to cause them suffering is cruel and unusual punishment of an innocent-till-proven-guilty suspect. There are no good reasons for him to face trial abroad rather than at home, and lots of reasons to believe that he would be treated unjustly by the US "justice" system.

I remember growing up in Europe when the USA was seen as a beacon of justice, truth and liberty for the world. Maybe that was just good PR, but these days they just don't seem to care at all.

Re:Why would he be extradited in the first place?

[JoeDuncan]

The US Court system is the fairest one one the world.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

LOL - wait, you WERE *joking*, right? RIGHT?

You realize that the US incarcerates more people PER CAPITA, than ANY *OTHER* country - on the whole planet.

The only way you can reconcile that fact with your statement is if you accept that USians are at least - at *LEAST* - twice as criminal as any other population/culture in the world.

Re:Why would he be extradited in the first place?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it's because the US actually punishes its criminals.

The UK? How about this story of a guy with 77 convictions, that was serving two simultaneous 'suspended' sentences, caught while committing another - and when convicted AGAIN, let go without any punishment because he hurt himself during his crime?

Or maybe the fact that police in the UK just don't record, investigate, or prosecute 'low-level' crime?

When your police are lazy and corrupt, and lie about crime statistics, it sure does make your country look better! (That was sarcasm, btw)

Re:Why would he be extradited in the first place?

[Anonymous Coward]

"You can plead guilty now and get 6 months, or you can stand trial and if convicted you'll get 15+ years"

Re:Why would he be extradited in the first place?

[jellomizer]

You will be fine gambling in Elbonia, just as long as that ill gotten money doesn't flow to the US.

Re:Why would he be extradited in the first place?

[Anonymous Coward]

By a non citizen of the US. It would be fair if they travel the US and get arrested. They aren't in the US. It is garbage that the US believes it owns the world.

Re:Why would he be extradited in the first place?

[Anonymous Coward]

I remember growing up in Europe when the USA was seen as a beacon of justice, truth and liberty for the world.

How are you enjoying your retirement?

Re:Why would he be extradited in the first place?

[hey!]

The US Court system is the fairest one one the world.

Actually, the World Justice Project collects data on the rule of law world wide, and provides a web interface in which you can easily rank countries by whatever metric you are interested in.

For example, by the fairness of the criminal court system, the top five countries in order are Finland, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, and Singapore. The US is in eighteenth place. The factors taken into account include: impartiality, due process protections, timely trials, and recidivism rates.

For civil cases, the Netherlands takes top place, with US placing 25th. Factors include affordability of access to civil justice, timeliness, impartiality, effective enforcement of judgments, and absence of political interference.

In general the US is nowhere near the top in these rule-of-law factors, but it's far from a dystopia; in general it's above average, keeping company with countries like France, Spain, and South Korea. It's the Nordic countries that score the best in most categories, with Singapore scoring high in measures of efficiency, security, regulatory enforcement and non-corruption but posting mediocre scores in government transparency, constraints on government, and individual rights.

Re:Why would he be extradited in the first place?

[DNS-and-BIND]

Well yeah. There are a ton of criminals in America. I don't think that comes as a surprise to anyone. Other countries are corrupt and either don't arrest them or let them out for a bribe. Not surprising the prisons fill up.

And you might want to drop that "USian" crap, it marks you as a drooling person whose arguments are not to be taken seriously.

Re:Why would he be extradited in the first place?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know where you got your information from, but the US has by far the worst court system of any Western country.

Re:Why would he be extradited in the first place?

[Anonymous Coward]

Totally. He did a crime that is illegal in the USA, so he needs to be punished under USA law.

Re: Why would he be extradited in the first place?

[Anonymous Coward]

American âJusticeâ(TM) System: named with great irony. Itâ(TM)s not about justice, but state-sponsored revenge and retribution. Pretty much what youâ(TM)d expect from a country full of fundamentalist religious nutjobs.

Re:Why would he be extradited in the first place?

[Anonymous Coward]

So... how exactly does one rank "fairness" exactly? That's one of those slippery words where we all "know" what it means, but really, it's up to whoever defines it.

Re:Why would he be extradited in the first place?

[Anonymous Coward]

Other countries are corrupt and either don't arrest them or let them out for a bribe.

You must be trolling. You are implying that the US is not corrupt!!! You have a system where lawmakers are bought by prison unions and prosecutors are not interested in truth but in a high conviction rate.
Charging people for what they have actually done is not corruption. Over-charging for a deal is. Not surprising the prisons fill up.

Re:Why would he be extradited in the first place?

[AHuxley]

The US has a long history of protecting its self given:
"To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations"
Other nations should remember that "Shores of Tripoli" and "Halls of Montezuma" part of a hymn.
The USA will come looking and its well funded legal system is always on the job.

Re:Why would he be extradited in the first place?

[Anonymous Coward]

Citation needed.

Re:Why would he be extradited in the first place?

[Anonymous Coward]

It turns out that in a minimum of 60% of US cases where a person was incarcerated for murder that person was the wrong person.

I'm totally on board with the Innocence Project and admire what they do, but your number of saying 60% of people incarcerated for murder are the wrong person is Bullshit.

Re:Why would he be extradited in the first place?

[Areyoukiddingme]

For civil cases, the Netherlands takes top place, with US placing 25th. Factors include affordability of access to civil justice, timeliness, impartiality, effective enforcement of judgments, and absence of political interference.

Eh well. The US would place 18th, except the timeliness metric is being blown out by SCO vs. IBM.....

Re:Why would he be extradited in the first place?

[Anonymous Coward]

In the UK you get a fine of a pound a week for stabbing someone. Hardly sounds like justice to me. Your argument is BS at best.

Re:Why would he be extradited in the first place?

[hey!]

Well, there are philosophical theories of fairness which I won't go into here. For the purposes of this particular metric they in effect use what is known as a "paradigm" -- a way for two people to reason about ethical issues when they don't necessarily agree on fundamental principles.

So while we may have very different views of where morality comes from, we can both agree that in a fair system the same standards of evidence should be use used in trying a particular offense for all defendants. We can agree that politicians should not be able to influence the outcomes of trials where their friends or enemies are defendants. We can agree that defendants should be able to know the charges being made against them, have an opportunity to examine and dispute evidence being used against them, introduce exonerating evidence and so on.

Using this method we can achieve a roughly mutually agreeable ranking, although the precision is limited. Neither of us might agree that South Korean criminal justice is fairer than US criminal justice, but where scores vary greatly the ordering should be pretty reliable (e.g. the US is fairer than Cambodiaa).

Re: Why would he be extradited in the first place?

[Anonymous Coward]

And the other favorite hymn, "Retreat from Saigon."

Re: Why would he be extradited in the first place?

[jabuzz]

The act was also a crime in the UK and he was located in the UK and was a UK citizen. As such the crime should have been prosecuted in the UK in the first instance. Now a judge has admonished the CPS for not doing so and refused his extradition.

Re:Why would he be extradited in the first place?

[q_e_t]

The first case is pretty exceptional.

When your police are lazy and corrupt, and lie about crime statistics,

Different places have different methodologies and definitions. There are crimes that in the UK count as serious, violent crimes, and don't count as such in the USA. E.g. in the UK throwing a punch and missing counts as a violent crime. In the article you mention, it's about dealing with funding reductions, not corruption or lying. Where you get the idea that crime isn't being recorded, though, I'm not sure. 'Crossing off' does not mean not being recorded, just not being investigated.

Re:Why would he be extradited in the first place?

[slashrio]

You forgot one possibility:
You're innocent but can't afford to stand trial and therefore plead guilty, because in case of a trial that you can't afford to defend yourself in you would definitely lose although you're innocent, and get 15 years.

Re:Why would he be extradited in the first place?

[Demena]

The big difference between the US and France, Spain and South Korea is that the cops in the latter group are not likely to kill you.

Re:Why would he be extradited in the first place?

[Demena]

No, citation not needed. Not in this case...

Re:Why would he be extradited in the first place?

[Maritz]

The US Court system is the fairest one one the world.

lol. You've got judges who don't even attempt to hide their bias. You've got despicable plea-deal corruption. Fairest, lol.

Re:Why would he be extradited in the first place?

[Maritz]

Weird I've never seen that sentencing guideline. Go ahead and link it please

Re: Why would he be extradited in the first place?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you saying that if he committed a digital crime in Egypt by what Egyptians claim the laws are, he should have to go to jail in Egypt? If you factor in every country's laws, the average person probably broke laws online in 30 of them just by views, word choices, where you post, playing video games, music choices, etc.

If you really think that's feasible then your world view is shit.

Re: Why would he be extradited in the first place?

[Anonymous Coward]

And had the computer been in Saudi Arabia... would you send him for trial there???

Re:Why would he be extradited in the first place?

[easyTree]

The US Court system is the fairest one one the world. Defendants have rights that are given in no other country in the world.

We also punish you if you are guilty. The fact that this faggot might commit suicide is proof that prison is a deterrent to crime.

Perhaps a small indication why the US isn't the favourite destination of everyone, particularly if they think you've done something to them.

Avoid the USA for the time being.

[jellomizer]

As a citizen I am scared to be in America at the moment. The current leadership hard line approach to nearly everything with little to no thinking of any ethical ramification. With laws (such as the recent Tax bill) designed to punish states who didn't vote for the current leadership majority.

At this moment having a foreigner tried in American Court isn't the best place for justice. I currently have more faith in a fare trial in the UK.
 

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[Anonymous Coward]

Depends. If you have some dosh, you can buy yourself a fair trial here in the US. In the UK, you will be a despised foreigner, and the Crown Court judge will toss the book at you just because xenophobia sells, as well as being "tough on crime, tougher on those who come here to commit crimes." Same if one is Romani and commits a crime in any European nation... they not just get the book thrown at them, but the whole bookshelf.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[Anonymous Coward]

I see you have absolutely no idea about and no experience of the UK's justice system.

Re: Avoid the USA for the time being.

[c6gunner]

As a citizen I am scared to be in America at the moment.

Of course you are. Just like many conservatives were terrified to be in the US under Obama. That's what happens when you have a carroonish view of politics and react emotionally whenever you're not getting your way.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[DNS-and-BIND]

Why does a rich continent of 500 million people depend on a distant nation of 300 million to defend it against much poorer and weaker threats on its borders? Why do the nations of Europe outsource this most sacred of national responsibilities?

People in Europe go on ad nauseum about how America thinks it can police the world and butt its nose in every country's business. America has been hated for this especially since the Vietnam war. Well, we are doing less of that and they're whining that we are deserting everyone and becoming isolationists. Can't effing win.

America's role as the world's policemen are coming to an end. Too much money and blood being spent (and wasted) overseas and too many problems at home. All American bases on foreign soil should be closed and the troops brought home. Let the rest of the world deal with the mess for a change. For many it will be considered 'good riddance' anyway. We can defend our borders. Let others worry about theirs.

If we have to pay to have allies, then fuck them.

"Americans cannot care more for your children's future security than you do."

-- Maddog Mattis

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[DNS-and-BIND]

If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.

Re: Avoid the USA for the time being.

[PopeRatzo]

Just like many conservatives were terrified to be in the US under Obama.

Who are these conservatives who were terrified to be in the US under Obama, and what were they afraid of?

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[OrangeTide]

The current leadership hard line approach to nearly everything with little to no thinking of any ethical ramification.

Don't be so dramatic. Every administration has taken a hard line approach when it comes to hackers. We put them in prison and throw away the key. While white collar criminals that rip off billions of dollars are out after a year, if punished at all. And murderers, actual fucking murderers, can get out sooner than a hacker.

The US government had made it clear for decades. Hackers are scum and have no rights. It's not Trump doing this, it's something baked into the culture of our legislature and executive branch. We operate a police state when it comes to computer crime and copyright infringement.

Re: Avoid the USA for the time being.

[Gravis Zero]

That's what happens when you have a carroonish view of politics and react emotionally whenever you're not getting your way.

To be fair, Trump is a caricature of a politician, his administration follows his lead and he has congress backing him. He's also appointed many less than qualified federal judges, is attempting to discredit the FBI and undermine faith in the free press. His extreme behavior is very similar to dictators (which he admires). This is not normal.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[Anonymous Coward]

Europe has thrived while the US defended them from internal and external strife. Now, Europe just is going to have to face the fact that they are going to have to have armies and navies again and have to spend a chunk of their GDP so they don't get overrun. Of course, they can easily continue the Merkel Doctrine and be overrun with Syrians, and the whole European identity be wiped off the face of the globe, just like how the Taliban and Daesh have destroyed all Buddhist and other cultures in Iraq and Afghanistan, wiping that from the pages of history.

Let Europe find its own way. They have nothing but contempt for the hand that feeds them.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[Anonymous Coward]

don't worry, you won't be here long.
after trump gets done kicking out the current batch of illegals, he will come for you because your /(great)*(grand)?(father|mother|neighbor)/ was an illegal.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[Anonymous Coward]

If you think America is "defending Europe" in any way other than just protecting its own interests, I've got a bridge to sell you. No-one takes that seriously in any way. We've had to pay the dane-geld in terms of military bases, occupied land etc.

America is interested in one thing only: America. "World's Policeman" is about as realistic as the Easter Bunny. It's a menacing bully with a massive armed force. The moment that the bases aren't profitable in terms of the US economy they'll disappear. Just about everyone in Europe would love to see them pack up and leave. The rest of the world has been dealing with your mess, from Syria to Afghanistan to Iraq for years and years now, and there's one pattern alone: An intervention is NOT for humanitarian reasons, or to bring democracy, or anything other than "It is in America's business interest to do this".

Re: Avoid the USA for the time being.

[Anonymous Coward]

> Who are these conservatives who were terrified to be in the US under Obama, and what were they afraid of?

The Alex Jones sorts, and FEMA camps, of all things.

Of course the leftwing conspiracies are just as loony as the rightwing ones, which is the point.

Re: Avoid the USA for the time being.

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, i'm one of those.

What was I afraid of? The to-the-hilt PR support the left and our media gave him, and the things he got away clean on. because of it.

things like extra-judicially executing american citizens. negotiating with terrorists, paying terrorists, paying ransoms? those _Absolutely Horrify_ me. Because we CANNOT do that, there's no long term positive and the long term negatives Are Awful.

Then you look at his using our intelligence apparatus politically, from the IRS targeting his political opponents, to unmasking US intelligence collections against the trump admin. to letting the hillary clinton off the hook on DNCgate.

Top that with his fiscal policy (we'll pay the banks for bad banking decisions! we'll pay the auto industry for their bad decisions! we'll pump Trillions of dollars out of the fed into the Top of the economy instead of the bottom!) And his political policies (Giving up US sovereignty, attempting to give foreign courts and governments power inside our borders) And his social policies (undermining faith in our police and military, working to weaken them. landing on the wrong side of every last media frenzy where the headline contained the words 'black' and 'white' )

Yeah. Scared Shitless.

The cheeto isn't the second coming of jesus christ, but just look at how hard the media is fighting to make him the antichrist. That should terrify you, if nothing else does.

Re: Avoid the USA for the time being.

[micahraleigh]

The Alex Jones sorts? Like there is more than one person like that guy?

I never heard of him until Meghan Kelly interviewed him on NBC (or whatever MSM thing she's on these days).

To say that there are enough Alex Jones like people in the world that it should have its own genre is disturbing and very different from what I've seen out there.

Re: Avoid the USA for the time being.

[PopeRatzo]

things like extra-judicially executing american citizens. negotiating with terrorists, paying terrorists, paying ransoms?

So, you were worried that Barack Obama was going to extra-judicially execute you? You lived for eight years "scared to death" of being extra-judicially executed?

God man, being afraid all the time is no way to live.

Re: Avoid the USA for the time being.

[PopeRatzo]

Of course the leftwing conspiracies are just as loony as the rightwing ones, which is the point.

A leading right-wing conspiracy is that soy makes you gay. Now, you want to give me an example of a left-wing conspiracy that's "just as loony"?

Re: Avoid the USA for the time being.

[DogDude]

That's what happens when you have a carroonish view of politics

I assume you meant cartoonish. I view of US politics is cartoonish right now, because the people at the top are cartoonish. I don't know what planet you're living on where what's happening in the US is *not* cartoonish.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[Anonymous Coward]

Why does a rich continent of 500 million people depend on a distant nation of 300 million to defend it against much poorer and weaker threats on its borders? Why do the nations of Europe outsource this most sacred of national responsibilities?

Why? Because quite frankly for about 5 or 6 decades, the US viewed the growth of the influence of the USSR, China, and Communism in general as an existential threat ... the idea of a world where that system of government had influence was deemed incompatible with Americas goal of being important and saving the world for democracy. So in pursuing your self interest, you injected yourself into every other country.

Now, you're not so important, your interests in democracy are reflect by the fact that you whine that the UN isn't your personal lapdogs and have utterly given up on the rest of the world.

So, as your influence wanes, and your self appointed role on the planet is something you're now acting like the rest of the world owes you for ... by all means, become the useless isolationist idiots you seem to want to become.

But don't be surprised when your influence wanes, our desire to buy your products diminishes, we start slapping tariffs on your products because of your increasing use of fossil fuels, and in general the rest of the world stops giving a damn what you say.

America used to be a super power because they led by example. Now you're just a bunch of whiny assholes.

So, by all means, pull back, and watch your own global relevance diminish. And watch the rest of the world set up alliances which have nothing to do with you.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[fafalone]

Oh please. The US (nearly all (R) and a good percent of (D)) has zero interest in becoming less involved in world affairs. We love wars and won't stop. Trump is about to start another one. All that whining about providing defense for Europe is just extortion. We're just as bad as ever at playing world police, anyone who thinks we're actually doing less of that or becoming isolationists in military matters is outright deluded.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[Anonymous Coward]

You should kill yourself and end your misery. I hear there is a place in Japan that lets you do it for free!

Re: Avoid the USA for the time being.

[Anonymous Coward]

Easy - vaccinations make you retarded.

GM tomatoes turn you into fish
Bush bombed the WTC

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[DNS-and-BIND]

It's not profitable at all for America to occupy Europe. In fact, it is hugely expensive. Europeans refuse to pay for their own defense and reacted quite angrily when Trump presented them with a bill for failing to reach their (quite low) 2% spending minimum.

Funny that when not so long ago when the US president questioned the sustainability and fairness of the NATO alliance, all of a sudden NATO is important for Europe's defense. All of a sudden the Europeans who never gave the US any credit for its disproportionate contributions think it's preposterous and a selfish betrayal to criticize the nature of the alliance. Europe is such a joke.

Europe (and the world) is vastly different than it was in 1949. Surely you don't mean to imply that the world's largest trading block with 500 million people and the highest GDP can't defend itself?

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[DNS-and-BIND]

Extortion? How? Old Europe refuses point-blank to spend the minimum required by NATO for defense. How's it profitable when you have to pay and pay to defend a continent full of people who hate you? America has 50,000 troops in Germany whose primary job is keep the small businesses afloat.

The US fought the Cold War to keep the Russians off Western European soil, and mitigated ethnic tensions in the region, and all we got in return was European propaganda about how imperialistic and colonial the US is from the very guys who fucked the world up in the first place. It's a total farce and it's high time it came to a screeching halt.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[DNS-and-BIND]

"UN isn't your personal lapdogs"

OK this is just crazy. Since when has the UN been anything other than a hotbed of hate for America? The US withdrew from UNESCO in 1984 because "because the agency has been politicized leftward and is financially irresponsible."

UNESCO promotes "Soviet-inspired" world disarmament in some of its education programs, boosting the needs of states over the rights of individuals and demanding a "new international economic order" critical of free-market capitalism. Poor, Third World nations have used UNESCO forums to vote sanctions against Israel, praise revolutionary organizations and to denounce and routinely outvote the United States.

The administration charged last December that UNESCO had "extraneously politicized virtually every subject it deals with; exhibits hostility toward the basic institutions of a free society, especially a free market and a free press; and demonstrated unrestrained budgetary expansion."

Re: Avoid the USA for the time being.

[PopeRatzo]

Easy - vaccinations make you retarded.

You think anti-vax is a leftwing conspiracy theory? Hmm.

https://twitter.com/realdonald...

https://www.infowars.com/resea...

GM tomatoes turn you into fish

This doesn't exist.

Bush bombed the WTC

9/11 "false flag" conspiracies are a conservative phenomenon.

http://www.slate.com/articles/...

Re: Avoid the USA for the time being.

[BlueStrat]

things like extra-judicially executing american citizens. negotiating with terrorists, paying terrorists, paying ransoms?

So, you were worried that Barack Obama was going to extra-judicially execute you? You lived for eight years "scared to death" of being extra-judicially executed?

God man, being afraid all the time is no way to live.

Obviously, he's terrified of the consequences for the nation that extra-judicial executions implicate.

But, you knew that. Why deliberately misinterpret his post?

Every POTUS has faults and does bad stuff. HWB GWB, BC, BHO, *all* have done bad stuff.

We need to call out the individual bad actions/decisions and not hand-wave them away just because of the party they belong to, and on the flip side, give credit when something they do/decide works out well regardless of Party.

It's the only way things will det better in America.

Strat

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[JoeDuncan]

Why does a rich continent of 500 million people depend on a distant nation of 300 million to defend it against much poorer and weaker threats on its borders?

Uh, they DON'T. Full stop.

America's role as the world's policemen are coming to an end.

GOOD! Go the fuck home and leave the rest of the world alone for once. FFS.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[Anonymous Coward]

Found the Chinese or Russian government employee.

Re: Avoid the USA for the time being.

[bluelip]

The FBI did themselves in.
Trump would like the press to be full of actual news, not tabloid headlines. Demanding the press stick to facts instead of fabricating stories in a great thing.

People follow him because he is a good leader.

Look at Pelosi and Booker. They thought they were in an acting audition for a HS musical during the SOTU. They're not leaders.

America is lucky to have Trump as president.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[Anonymous Coward]

The UN was literally invented by President Franklin D. Roosevelt (USA) together with Winston Churchill (UK), the first draft was written by them personally together with Harry Hopkins (USA), and the UN Charta was drafted in San Francisco (USA). Why do you think the UN Headquarters is located in Manhattan, New York (USA)??

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[DNS-and-BIND]

Gosh, it isn't 1944 any more. The UN functions today as a forum for anti-Americanism. That's what it is, that's what it does, and suggesting that the UN is some kind of American puppet is really out there. America pays and pays and yet the UN feels free to bite the hand that feeds it. How else to explain the recent resounding American defeat in the Palestinian vote?

A lot of Americans have been saying for a long time that the UN needs to be kicked out. Their diplomats take all the benefits of living in NYC while parking their cares wherever they feel like it, driving drunk, and hitting Americans and not having to pay.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[Anonymous Coward]

Man, you need to have your head examined, you're clearly over-consuming right wing propaganda.

You're acting like the Europeans suckered the Americans into staying in Europe. The truth is that you were eager to join in. Tension between between the US and the USSR wasn't something which suddenly appeared after the founding of NATO. You were afraid to be left out when the Europeans started to discuss their response to the massive threat of the Red Army stomping around their borders, and you wanted to protect and to what ever extent possible exert control over your biggest overseas market, to protect your own stability and job market.

Can't win, eh? More self-righteous whining. Now learn this: There's a bloody big difference between protecting your allies, and waging counter productive, unjust wars and sponsoring, supporting and staging equally destructive coup d'états in the name of your commercial interests. Contras, Pinochet, Ayatollah Khomeini, you have a lot to answer for. Or are you saying that helping to hold of the russkies absolves you from these sins? Heard about "whataboutism"?

I'm sad to say I can't find your comment about "too much money and blood being spent (and wasted) overseas" and implying that this too is the fault of "America being suckered" anything but amusing. Not that I find people dying amusing, but how you can find the fault for this anywhere but on your own side. ALL your military disasters since WWII have been of your own making. Nobody held a pistol to your head and forced you into Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan etc. You were warned, but you wanted wars so badly you even faked the "evidence" to justify them.

About the only point you're right about is that your problems are at home. Your problems are galloping corruption, greed, selfishness, arrogance and stupidity on the highest levels. The solution, however, is not to turn away from friends and alliances which have been built up for more than half a century. It's to deal with the rot, and be vigilant of those who seek to exploit your anger. If you want a rule of thumb remember that, big, complex problems rarely have simple solutions, and building fucking walls never solved any problem ever.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[DNS-and-BIND]

Uh, hate to break it to you, but Europe depends utterly on the Americans to keep Putin's panzers out of Paris.

GOOD! Go the fuck home and leave the rest of the world alone for once. FFS.

Statements like that are exactly the kind of shitty, smug European attitude that results in Americans questioning the usefulness of NATO. Not only are you ungrateful, you go in the opposite direction and have a derisive view of the US despite how much you depend on it. Also what you just said has no grounding in reality, at all. You can't even base your hateful attitude on facts.

Only 2.7% of European troops are trained and equipped to a sufficient degree to be deployed in combat.

The Germans have literally had to use broomsticks in place of machine guns and only 8 of their 109 Eurofighters are operational.

All of the military forces of the entire EU combined only have 10% of the capability that the US military possesses. Russia is way closer to the US in military capability than the EU is.

In general, Europe depends on the US for defense and to protect their interests

NATO "allies" flat-out refuse to pay their fair share for their own defense. Mr Schulz said: "Of course, we are a strong and reliable Nato member. However, I'm not of the opinion that Nato member states have agreed to achieve this goal of spending two per cent of their GDP for defence. This would mean a substantial financial burden for Germany."

Re: Avoid the USA for the time being.

[jellomizer]

Under George W Bush, while I disagreed with the policies, I wasn't worried about the country direction as I am now. Policies even if I disagree with them based on moderated reasoning, and for the most part with the general interest of the country at hand I can deal with and willing to put up with a policy I don't like for 4-8 years while using my rights as a citizen to disagree with it.
However today I don't feel the in power party is out for anyone's interests expect for that of the party. They are looking for things that can get past, they have disrupted many of the 2/3 majority votes in order to Ram policies and a supreme court placement in order to cut out the minority party.

Yes the democrats are just as bad as the republicans under Obama in obstruction as much as they can, I am not excusing that where they could possible try harder to find a good middle ground. However the GOP is just trying to scramble to show that they can do something, no matter the cost, and with the view to try to make Blue States Pay for not being in line.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[Anonymous Coward]

I implied nothing of the sort. Perhaps you should work on your reading comprehension. We can defend ourselves just fine. The USA is NOT HERE FOR OUR DEFENSE. It is here for the defense of its interests alone. Europe was always a convenient front for pointing missiles and planes at Russia. Not in Europe's defense, but in the US's defense.

You're very confused as to how our defense works, though - Trump did not present us with a bill. NATO requires a fraction of GDP to be spent on military. That's not a bill from the US for defending Europe, its a NATO goal for members to spend on their own defense.

Europeans pay for our defense just fine. The UK and France have armies, navies and air forces that are perfectly capable of delivering nuclear strikes anywhere on the planet and better trained special forces than anyone else in the world. If the USA were to remove all troops from Europe tomorrow, all that would happen is that the number of rapes and petty crimes in small German towns would reduce. Oh, and there'd be a higher unemployment rate in the USA. And perhaps the middle eastern countries would start trading oil in Euros which would be a disaster for the US dollar.

Again, you seem to think that the US is doing this out of the goodness of their kind little hearts. You poor doe-eyed sap. Surely you don't mean to imply that your military is acting in the interests of foreign nations that don't align with those of the USA?

Re: Avoid the USA for the time being.

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course you are. Just like many conservatives were terrified to be in the US under Obama.

Why would conservatives ever be terrified in a country that alternates between moderately conservative and extremely conservative policies?

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[DNS-and-BIND]

LOL. And when Trump said let's withdraw from NATO, the screams were loud and numerous. Suddenly NATO became Europe's prized asset and America was Europe's best friend. Ungrateful freeloaders.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[DNS-and-BIND]

Are you seriously aligning the interests of the globalists in the US government with the interests of the American people? We had fuck-all to do with that coup shit. Hell, the CIA did a lot of those on its own while trying to hide its involvement from the elected government. This isn't a conspiracy theory, it's established fact.

The solution, however, is not to turn away from friends and alliances which have been built up for more than half a century.

Gotta love that attitude. FUCK YOU USA and then turn right around and DON'T LEAVE USA YOU FUCKING ISOLATIONIST ASSHOLES. Jesus Christ, you really can't see it, can you?

building fucking walls never solved any problem ever

If walls don't work, then why did Zuckerberg build one? Heck, even Obama builds a wall, I wonder what kind of problem he had? I guess the wall solved it!

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[Anonymous Coward]

Please, stop trying to think, you're no good at it.

You're asking how protecting your biggest overseas market is profitable? 50k troops compared to all the profits extracted from and jobs created in the US thanks to American companies doing business in Europe? Are you serious? Oh, wait, it's just you being stupid again, not realising that the costs - troops - are being socialised, while the profits are being privatised.

And that "propaganda" thing? I think you'll find it "reality", once you turn off Faux News, the world record holder in navel gazing and regularly operating on a level of hypocritical falseness that would impress even Goebbels.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[Anonymous Coward]

Why does a rich continent of 500 million people depend on a distant nation of 300 million to defend it against much poorer and weaker threats on its borders? Why do the nations of Europe outsource this most sacred of national responsibilities?

It doesn't. It is in a military alliance with said distant nation because otherwise that nation would be its largest security threat. And in many ways, it is, even now that nation is supposedly an ally.

People in Europe go on ad nauseum about how America thinks it can police the world and butt its nose in every country's business.

Well, it's not like American policy hasn't created quite a significant fraction of the world's major problems at the moment, including some serious security threats to Europe.

America has been hated for this especially since the Vietnam war.

And rightly so. Vietnam was the first major episode of a series of pointless American-led shitshows that continues to cause lots of trouble and suffering in many places.

Well, we are doing less of that and they're whining that we are deserting everyone and becoming isolationists.

Who are 'they' in this regard? Many people would be quite happy if the US stopped destroying places and fostering terrorists.

America's role as the world's policemen are coming to an end.

The problem is that the US was never so much a policeman as a bully.

All American bases on foreign soil should be closed and the troops brought home. Let the rest of the world deal with the mess for a change.

Hasn't that alway been US policy? Create a huge problem somewhere far away and then let others solve it? I approve of the closure of US bases, though.

If we have to pay to have allies, then fuck them.

Not extorting them anymore would be a good start, though.

"Americans cannot care more for your children's future security than you do."

Maybe America should simply stop fucking up other children's future security. And maybe do a thing or two to make America a bit less of a shithole.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate to break it to you, but the US pays less of NATO's funding per capita than the European nations.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[Anonymous Coward]

America has 50,000 troops in Germany whose primary job is keep the small businesses afloat.

lol primary job? Christ you techno libertarian tards are special.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[Anonymous Coward]

Alignment? Well, you did elect them... Funny how they are all yours when things go smoothly, and "damned globalists" when it doesn't. Isn't old Ronnie considered the greatest President evah? Guess on whose watch a lot of that "shit" happened. Talk about wanting to have things both ways.

And, no, I'm not really aligning the interests of the imperial government with the interests of the American people. I'm quite sure a significant portion of the American people would rather stay home in Kansas or Alabama and make out with their sisters rather than go to war in Vietnam or Afghanistan. That was not the point. The point is that your imperial government take all these actions in your name. Therefore, by necessity, the critique - not hate - is directed against the American people. If you want less critique, elect a better government. You claim to be the "biggest and greatest democracy evah", so you can't just get away with blaming "the government". They are your representatives. You, the people, elected them. What happened to all that "personal responsibility" you Americans claim to be all about?

Finally, this is probably a cultural thing. Americans seems to think there is nothing in between; You're either for or against, either you're a patriot who loves his country as blind as a bat, or you're an enemy. This is not the truth. If you are unquestioningly loyal, you can never right any wrongs and history is full of examples of what happens when good people are forced to be loyal with the grotesque. It's not pretty. And the fact is that the US and Europe have more in common than differs, and they need each other more than you think. You think the US could stake it out on it's own, the truth is very different. Just take a history book, and look at what the US looked like pre WWI and compare with today. That's largely the difference between cooperation with the rest of the world, and isolationism.

And no, walls do not solve problems. At most they can hide or limit negative effects of a problem, but they bring their own problems and negative effects in turn. Walls didn't help the neither the Chinese, Hadrian nor the East German communist party.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[Anonymous Coward]

I've gotta take a piss. Maybe a shit too.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[DNS-and-BIND]

Please, stop trying to think, you're no good at it.

You needed a semicolon after "think".

The US loses money doing business with Europe. There is a huge trade imbalance that Europe refuses to make fair. The European Union, which exports lots of vehicles to the United States, has an import duty of 10 percent; ours is 2.5 percent. Car & Driver magazine reports that the 10 percent duty imposed on imports into the European Union is preventing BMW, Mercedes-Benz, and Volkswagen from building more factories here in which to make cars for export to Europe.

I don't watch Fox news unless someone posts a link there. In fact, I don't watch TV at all. Where'd you even get that idea? Try thinking sometime, it might hurt but it's well worth it.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[Anonymous Coward]

So, a bit of whataboutery, no answer to the points raised, and a complete non-sequitur is all your post amounts to. If France were to say "We're withdrawing from NATO" there would be screams from the Americans.

Face the world as it is - the US is just out for its own interests. The moment they aren't gaining from something, they're gone. The rest is a fairy story as believable as Santa Claus. Europe freeloads off America like a host freeloads off its parasite. Go home.

Re: Avoid the USA for the time being.

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit. Any problems the US has with he UN was brought about by its own meddling in other countries. Kharma baby, kharma. American armed and trained mujahadeen coming for you. Agent Orange coming home with exploding cigars. I fear China less, and theyâ(TM)re going to be some much bigger than the US, and theyâ(TM)re still smarting nearly 100 years on from Imperial humiliation including by the US.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[Anonymous Coward]

It is not profitable for the country, it is profitable for the war industry.

Re: Avoid the USA for the time being.

[DNS-and-BIND]

Are you on medication? Check your blood pressure.

Re: Avoid the USA for the time being.

[Anonymous Coward]

You would be scared if you believed the lies. All of that crap you mentioned has already been proven false or to be opinion.

Re: Avoid the USA for the time being.

[Anonymous Coward]

I like how harmony and working together and shit is always the slogan when the repubs are in charge, but exactly opposite when they aren't.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[MoaDweeb]

Under the Westminster system (UK, Canada, Australia, NZ etc.) judges are appointed by the Executive on the recommendation of the MoJ.

These tend to be legal professionals, although a higher number of prosecutors than defence lawyers are appointed as a rule.
Therefore there is no election/ public to appease in the US sense so this sort of populist tends to be much less applicable.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Statements like that are exactly the kind of shitty, smug European attitude that results in Americans questioning the usefulness of NATO. "

I like how that is a shitty and offensive (to you) argument when it gets used against you, but it's one of the first arguments you trot out to liberals who want to change the law of their own land. Don't like Texas, get the fuck out! I hear it every day at work.

Hypocrisy's name is Conservative.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck off Ivan

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh fuck off Boris

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[fafalone]

We're defending them because of *our* interests, not theirs. It's not a charity act. It's to exert power and control and provide a buffer against Russia. They don't pay because it's not for them, it's for us, and they know it, so attempting to extort protection money isn't working. I happen to agree that it should stop because of a principled belief that the military should be relegated to domestic defense only, but it's not happening no matter how much or how little Europe pays.

Re: Avoid the USA for the time being.

[Cederic]

Sure: The patriarchy.

Re: Avoid the USA for the time being.

[Brockmire]

You sound sheltered.

Re: Avoid the USA for the time being.

[Brockmire]

He must be a relative of Bin Laden.

Re: Avoid the USA for the time being.

[Gravis Zero]

You're only fooling yourself. Enjoy the upcoming impeachment.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[DNS-and-BIND]

Buffer against Russia? We have the Atlantic ocean. How's it in our interest to have a "buffer"? It's not in our interest at all - it's in theirs! We're getting ripped off by a bunch of ungrateful freeloaders.

Re: Avoid the USA for the time being.

[DNS-and-BIND]

This is what Scott Adams calls a 'hallucination' and now that I know how to spot them, they're fascinating to discover in the wild. He literally said, "What was I afraid of? things like extra-judicially executing american citizens." and you hallucinated that it was him saying he was personally afraid of being assassinated. I'm starting to think any comment that starts with "so" followed by a misstatement of the opponent's argument is the tell for this.

It happened bigtime in the Jordan Peterson interview with the BBC where the interviewer repeatedly says "so you're saying" followed by stating something he did not say. He repeatedly contradicts her and tells her again what he said, and it makes no impression on her. She was literally hallucinating and it's obvious to everyone.

Re: Avoid the USA for the time being.

[Anonymous Coward]

The left was very vocal in its opposition to those killings. The left (Obama is centre-right in terms of world politics) was often very unsupportive of Obama on a range of decisions.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[Anonymous Coward]

It is possible for something to be in the interests of two or more groups concurrently. If you go back to the 1940s, it was in the interests of France for the Allies, including the USA, to expel the Nazis, but also in the interests of the USA to not have a Nazi regime dominate Europe, and have it open for trade.

Re: Avoid the USA for the time being.

[Anonymous Coward]

I like how harmony and working together and shit is always the slogan when the repubs are in charge, but exactly opposite when they aren't.

I bet you also think all orientals look alike and all black people like watermelon and fried chicken, too.

Keep on painting with that broad brush. What could possibly go wrong?

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[q_e_t]

10% is the standard WTO tariff. If the USA wants to lower it then a trade deal with the EU would deal with that. The USA not wishing to impose the WTO tariff is up to it. Note that for light trucks the USA imposes a 25% duty on imports from the EU, due to a war in the 1960s over chicken. A 25% duty won't encourage the EU to reduce its duty.

It's very unlikely that Volkswagen, etc., would set up factories in the USA to make cars for the European market, as they've already set up large factories in the cheaper parts of Europe where costs are much lower, even before import duties, than the USA, and in a market where there is a free-trade zone (the EU). And that's even before considering the issues of transport of the cars to a port, across an ocean, to a port, and onwards. To get a consignment of cars from Poland to France you just put them on a truck and drive them there.

The article that you refer to does not seem to be well thought out.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[Anonymous Coward]

10% Previously you were claiming the 8 regiments of the Texas National Guard had 30 times the firepower of the whole of the rest of NATO. Which is it? (Note - 30 times would mean that an individual soldier in the National Guard could hold their own against an entire European regiment, which seems unlikely to me).

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[q_e_t]

Uh, hate to break it to you, but Europe depends utterly on the Americans to keep Putin's panzers out of Paris.

Whilst Putin might welcome a weaker USA and EU, I can't understand why you think he'd want to roll tanks into Paris. Not least because the French have nuclear weapons.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[hoofie]

Please do not mix us British in with the Jerries and other Foreigners. Yes we might have a smaller military than we used to but it's still got an uncanny ability to batter an opponent between the eyes and we have lots of experience of hammering natives in sandy countries plus giving the Latinos a smack down south. And if it all goes to rat-shit, we and French are more than capable of turning Moscow and quite a few Russian cities into thousand-year glass car parks. So as long as Putin stops at the French Border and doesn't cross the Channel, it's all good.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[DNS-and-BIND]

Uh, I don't know if you've been following world politics, but Putin's panzers are a threat to invade all of Europe and it's only the Americans who are keeping them out, because Europeans refuse to spend money on their militaries. Like, flat-out refuse.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[DaveV1.0]

If you have some dosh,

You are not an American and have zero knowledge of the American legal system.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[painandgreed]

LOL. And when Trump said let's withdraw from NATO, the screams were loud and numerous. Suddenly NATO became Europe's prized asset and America was Europe's best friend. Ungrateful freeloaders.

Which is why there is a large part of the European left that is happy for a Trump election. They feel he will so damage US relations and reputations that it cannot be repaired and will never regain control over the world again. There is a big difference between saying the US wants to reduce it's roll and for other nations to pick up the slack, something that Merkel had pretty much agreed to already, and picking up our toys and rage quitting at a party the US has organized and been telling people what to do. Yes, there is certain things the other NATO members can't do without the US, which is why we joined in on North Africa which was mostly a French and Italian thing. That is no doubt because we have previously let them know that we're behind them in an organization that we created. Now, they'll have second thought, know they can't depend on the US, and give less care to what we want as they move to duplicate what we do.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[painandgreed]

It's not profitable at all for America to occupy Europe. In fact, it is hugely expensive. Europeans refuse to pay for their own defense and reacted quite angrily when Trump presented them with a bill for failing to reach their (quite low) 2% spending minimum.

Hey, I'm all for lessing US involvement and making others pick up the slack. (That is pretty much Section 3 of the Libertairan party platform.) However, do not think for a second that things aren't the way they are because faction in the US want them that way. Our military isn't making us money and is way more than we need, but even Trump just wants to spend more for no return. While making Germany pay it's full 2% was an issue before the election, something that Merkel agreed to, he forgot all about it afterwards and just wants to spend, spend, spend.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[q_e_t]

France alone spends $55 billion on defence per year (since the comment was about Paris), Russia spends $70 billion. The five biggest economies in Europe outspend Russia by a factor of 2.5:1.

Re: Avoid the USA for the time being.

[imrahilj]

Who doesn't like fried chicken and watermelon? That seems like a shitty example to me, because those two things are awesome. Where I grew up, everybody liked rice. EVERYBODY ;)

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[DNS-and-BIND]

If Europeans can defend themselves, then why was there such screaming when Trump wanted to pull us out of NATO? They should have said, "good riddance assholes" and sent us packing.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[DNS-and-BIND]

Uh, American control over the world is a *bad* thing. Just ask Iraq.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[Anonymous Coward]

There wasn't any screaming when Trump wanted to pull out of NATO.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[q_e_t]

People in Europe, overall, view the USA favourably, and want it engaged in important international bodies.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[DNS-and-BIND]

Bahaha! Nope, that's not true in the slightest. Europeans hate the USA and are not shy about saying it. You know who Europe regards as their greatest threat? Russia? Laughable. Not even in the top ten. Europe's greatest threat is America. And this was during the reign of Saint Obama the Scandal-Free, things are only worse now.

Europeans are not our friends, and it's high time we pulled our troops out and went home. Armies are expensive, but luckily they can afford it because they are rich developed nations. The US fought the Cold War to keep the Russians off Western European soil, and mitigated ethnic tensions in the region, and all we got in return was European propaganda about how imperialistic and colonial the US is from the very guys who fucked the world up in the first place. It's a total farce and it's high time it came to a screeching halt.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[painandgreed]

Uh, American control over the world is a *bad* thing. Just ask Iraq.

Not disagreeing with that. If anything, recent history has taught us that stability tends to be better than trying to fix things, at least though revolution or war.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[q_e_t]

I am European and live in Europe. Your characterisation of Europe as a sea of hate for the USA is very wrong.

Re:Avoid the USA for the time being.

[DNS-and-BIND]

Pfff. Oh, yeah? When's the last time the people of Europe stood up and said, "We like you, America! Thanks for all the free security you provide because we are too weak and useless to provide it ourselves!" Yeah, never. When's the last time the people of Europe stood up and angrily demanded Americans get the fuck out and called them baby-murdering warmongers for actually building an army? Last week? Every US mililtary base in Europe is spraypainted with "AMI GO HOME" and European attitudes towards America are hugely negative. You don't view your friends as your greatest threat.

Americans are tired of wasting money on the likes of NATO, bases in Germany, etc. A complete waste of money that we canâ(TM)t afford, and which serves no purpose. If Russia wants to annex the Ukraine I donâ(TM)t care at all, not even a tiny bit.

The EU also has massive, massive problems, unelected, unresponsive bureaucrats who view their jobs as an all expense paid vacation, flooding the continent with third world migrants, etc.

European welfare state model is also probably unsustainable, particularly w/o the hapless US taxpayers funding their defense.

Re:How cool would it be.....

[Mordaximus]

If her nickname was 'Butt' ...

  Lauri "Butt: Love....

LUALZ DENG!!

Didn't make it past the title to the summary I see. It would be ...His nickname.

Re:How cool would it be.....

[Anonymous Coward]

You, sir, ARE CORRECT!!

Take note, Assange haters

[Uberbah]

Lawyers for the 33-year-old, who lives in Suffolk, had argued that Love should be tried in Britain for allegedly hacking into US government websites and that he would be at risk of killing himself if sent to the US.

Before blowing that off as outlandish, Sweden is known for keeping suspects incommunicado for weeks without even charging them, and then deporting them to other countries to face other charges. Obama had Chelsea Manning tortured with solitary confident for months - yes it's torture and it causes permanent damage after a couple weeks - and she eventually attempted suicide.

Re: Take note, Assange haters

[c6gunner]

I like how we are constantly redefining the definition of torture. I fully expect that in 2089 your descendants will be arguing that not receiving strawberry cheesecake for desert is torture and causes lasting psychological harm.

Re:Take note, Assange haters

[Anonymous Coward]

I recommend when you post a link to support your argument that "yes it's torture" you not use a link with the word "opinion" in the url.

Just saying.

(FWIW, I also agree with you, but opinion pieces != support of your argument)

Re: Take note, Assange haters

[Anonymous Coward]

The US has recently practiced real torture:
- Bush: "High-value" captured AL-Queda terrorists
- Obama: Manning

Furthermore, failed-POTUS Clinton talked about droning Assange and real-POTUS Trump raves about being tough on terror, crime, illegals, etc.

Finally, being sentenced to prison for hundreds of years can be called unreasonably harsh punishment in many countries.

All these points together provide ample justification for Assange's concerns.

Re:Take note, Assange haters

[DNS-and-BIND]

Just tell the Swedes you're a Syrian refugee. They'll naturally drop rape charges.

Re: Take note, Assange haters

[Pyramid]

What exactly is your definition of "torture"? There is a large body of evidence that shows solitary confinement causes severe psychological damage. Prisons are beginning to abolish it because it does not actually improve anything; rather, it literally drives people crazy.

Re:Take note, Assange haters

[Xylantiel]

Nice try. Restricting access by the public and press is not the same as solitary confinement.

Re:Take note, Assange haters

[Anonymous Coward]

Lol, if a Swedish court acquits a male accused of rape, the legal definition of rape will be changed.

Re: Take note, Assange haters

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a large body of evidence that shows that "chicks with dicks" don't mix well with the general population in a prison setting.

Do you being gang raped and beaten nearly to death on a daily basis would be more humane for Chelsea?

Re: Take note, Assange haters

[bluefoxlucid]

Actually, correctional systems in states such as North Dakota have started implementing policies to normalize the prison environment and improve correctional outcomes, among other things. They have a discretionary parole program there, too, to get people out of prison and instead control them via the mechanism of parole; and the governor can commute sentences at the request of the parole advisory board if they think it's a waste of resources to keep tabs on a guy with a 20-year sentence who got out on parole after 3 years and has been determined not a likely reoffender or otherwise threat to the community 6 months later.

Between expanded in-prison programs, more inmate autonomy, a better relationship between inmates and prison staff, expanded behavioral health services, and incoming and outgoing services to keep people out of prison or to stabilize them when they get out, the amount of trouble inmates cause in prison and the rate at which inmates reoffend has dropped considerably.

As a result of all of this, North Dakota went from having over a hundred inmates in solitary confinement to having maybe three; and they don't stay in solitary confinement for very long at all. Their caseworkers spend a lot of time with them, and they get cognitive therapy to help them improve so they can go back to general population quickly. It really is phenomenal.

It is my intent to drive similar change across the whole of the United States.

Re:Take note, Assange haters

[Uberbah]

Could always try reading the citation:

"Gottfrid Svartholm will be kept in detention for at least two more weeks on suspicion of hacking into a Swedish IT company connected to the country's tax authorities. According to Prosecutor Henry Olin the extended detention is needed 'to prevent him from having contact with other people.' The Pirate Bay co-founder is not allowed to have visitors and is even being denied access to newspapers and television. . . .

Re: Take note, Assange haters

[Uberbah]

All these points together provide ample justification for Assange's concerns.

That and the fact that Assange has offered to be interviewed by investigators at the embassy, or to return to Sweden if given a no-extradition promise to the United States. Even if you think Assange is merely posturing, such a promise would mean Ecuador would no longer have a reason to grant him asylum.

If this really was about an alleged rape case, Sweden has had years to make it clear it's only about an alleged rape case, and not a pretext to hand him over to the US.

Re:Take note, Assange haters

[Anonymous Coward]

Blasphemy! Europe can do no wrong and President Obams is the greatest leader the world has ever had! I will slaughter your family for your sacrilegious words!

Re:Take note, Assange haters

[Anonymous Coward]

classy, youre a racist too.

"bu-bu-but its not racist to want whites to live with other whites"

Re: Take note, Assange haters

[Anonymous Coward]

People live in North Dakota? Or are other states sending inmates there now?

Re: Take note, Assange haters

[serviscope_minor]

It is my intent to drive similar change across the whole of the United States.

Good for you. I mean that: no sarcasm.

Do you have some gfood places I can read up on this? Sounds like a huge improvement

Re:Take note, Assange haters

[Anonymous Coward]

Syrian isn't a race. Neither is being Muslim.

Re: Take note, Assange haters

[bluefoxlucid]

Right now I've been calling up some people who know more about this than I. I've spoken to ND's DoC head and learned about some of their programs. They've been pushing a program called Justice Reinvestment whereby they change how their corrections system operates and reinvest the savings into making it operate even better, in a basic sense. Their legislature has a committee for this.

They actually have a system where private behavioral health service providers get paid a monthly fee for their cases, and get awards if they perform well. That means your profits are kind of crappy unless you maximize successful: addiction needs to be treated long-term, behavioral problems need to be treated, and folks need to go out and thrive in the community after going through the corrections or pre-corrections processes.

I asked about for-profit prisons and was given the indication that it doesn't really matter. If your system isn't designed to normalize people into the community, it fails. For-profit prisons need to follow the rules of the contract, and the contract can state that their job is to rehabilitate people, that they are to make these programs available, and that business is to be carried out in a certain manner. You can even do an awards contract that minimizes profits if the people in the prison aren't thriving, if solitary confinement isn't diminished to near-nothing (there are, at any given time, about THREE people in solitary in North Dakota; they don't stay there long), if people don't get put on discretionary parole early enough, and if they reoffend too frequently. You can make their income stream dependent on results.

The real problem is nobody cares. State-run prisons are drab, authoritarian pits of shame and self-loathing, a place we lock people away so we don't have to see them. They destroy prisoners just as much as the for-profit prisons because nobody has been pushed to do better.

Private, for-profit prison advocates claim these institutions are innovative and have well-developed rehabilitation programs. The truth is private, for-profit prison advocates have made figuring out how to rehabilitate inmates somebody else's problem. Until our legislators make it their responsibility, we won't see improvement--regardless of who runs the prisons.

Re:Take note, Assange haters

[Uberbah]

When Muslim is used as a synonym for Arab - which all islamophobes do whether unconsciously or not - it's definitely racism.

Re: Take note, Assange haters

[DNS-and-BIND]

Assange just told the Swedes he's a Syrian refugee. So naturally they dropped rape charges.

Re:Take note, Assange haters

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice try to frame the narrative fuckhead. It's not racist to dislike an ideology that wants to fucking kill you.

Re:Take note, Assange haters

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, that puts your ramblings into perspective.

"Islam" is not an ideology. It's a religion. You might want to sort out the differences there before continuing your attempt at an argument.

Secondly, "Islam" doesn't want to kill you. People using Islam justify themselves want to kill people. Just like people have used Christianity for the same reasons. "Deus Vult", "Gott mit uns", "Allahu Akbar!". It's all the same.

Thirdly, these people kill way more of their own than westerners, which otherwise seems to be your main concern. You might want to address that too, it's kind of a give away for a racist too. "It's fine if they kill each other as long as we are left alone" - that means you have no problem with them killing people for claimed religious reasons, you only react when you feel this group of people become a threat directly to you.

The funny thing is that by doing that you're as indiscriminate as your hated enemies -many of which have legitimate beefs with the western world - who also don't care to separate the guilty from the innocent. They say, "they are all infidels", while you say "they are all Muslims". You're no better. You're just as bigoted, ignorant and stupid.

Re: Take note, Assange haters

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you still whining untruths about Assange? Lose the tinfoil hat, will you? But okay, I'll bite.

*Who* was supposed to promise Assange that he wouldn't be extradited? Let's look at the events:

Assange runs to UK.
Sweden asks UK to send Assange back to Sweden.
Assange says he is afraid that Sweden will send him to US.
Sweden says, no, there are laws that say we can't do that.
Assange stomps his foot and says "You have to promise!"

So, now the question again. Who is supposed to make that promise?

Swedish politicians/government? Nope, they are by law not allowed to get involved in a police/judicial matter.
The police/prosecutor? Nope, Assange is not a special snowflake and they can't treat him in ways that anyone else wouldn't be treated.

So what are we left with? Assange whining about being scared and Sweden that has a law barring to extradite him to US but can't give any special guarantees.

Re:Take note, Assange haters

[DaveV1.0]

I don't care about what Sweden does/ That traitor Manning deserved to be in solitary.. No it is not torture and no it does not cause permanent damage.

Re:Take note, Assange haters

[Uberbah]

Insert Mark Hamill picture here, because every word you just said was false. To pick just one issue, Manning's Oath of Enlistment required her to defend the Constitution of the United States, not neocon war criminals breaking every law under the sun. She tried the vaunted 'chain of command' and was shut down, leaving a leak her only option to uphold said oath.

Re: Take note, Assange haters

[Uberbah]

The case of Gottfrid Svartholm makes bad liars out of all the concern trolls working on behalf of American Hegemony. Sweden goes to great lengths to extradite someone from a non-extradition country, and immediately throws him in a cell with no contact for weeks, interrogated for a case in another country, and deported to said country.

Get lost, dipshit.

Re:Take note, Assange haters

[Uberbah]

It's not racist to dislike an ideology that wants to fucking kill you.

Lulz. American Exceptionalists are the worst tough guy crybaby bitches the world has ever seen. Long before you were killing a million people in a bullshit invasion, you killed half a million kids with sanctions, shoot down a passenger jet in their own airspace, and overthrew governments to install dictators like Saddam and the Shah.

If muslims responded to your terrorism the way the U.S. responded to 911, the entire USA would have been nuked down to bedrock decades ago. Then the population would be wished back to life with Dragon Balls just to be bombed back into bedrock again.

And that's being merciful.

Re: Take note, Assange haters

[easyTree]

Hey, if you operate what is essentially a hotel but for business reasons you choose to target only people whose room and board is guaranteed by the state, a large portion of whom are violent nut-jobs, that doesn't absolve you of responsibility to keep them all safe - from each other, from the guards, from themselves.

Re:Take note, Assange haters

[nasch]

"Not allowed to have visitors" is very very different from solitary confinement, though the latter implies the former.

Re: Take note, Assange haters

[c6gunner]

The case of Gottfrid Svartholm makes bad liars out of all the concern trolls working on behalf of American Hegemony.

Cool story, bro. But no. Gottfrid was charged and jailed in Sweden for copyright infringement, and was investigated for hacking and fraud. He was then deported to Denmark where he was prosecuted and convicted for hacking.

None of those things have anything to do with the Assange situation. Sweden's extradition treaty specifically forbids extradition for "political crimes", and the only thing which the US has accused him of is expressly political. Ergo there's no good reason to believe that Sweden would extradite him.

Either way, you're basically suggesting that both Sweden and the USA need to change their laws in order to accommodate poor little Julian, which is pretty damn funny.

Re: Take note, Assange haters

[Uberbah]

Cool story, bro. But no. Gottfrid was charged and jailed in Sweden for copyright infringement, and was investigated for hacking and fraud. He was then deported to Denmark where he was prosecuted and convicted for hacking.

So you're just going to ignore the part where he was imprisoned for weeks, held incommunicado with no right to outside contact of any kind (including a lawyer as he wasn't charged) and interrogated on this other alleged crime before being sent to prison for the previous copyright charge.

Your willful dumbfuckery is noted.

Sweden's extradition treaty specifically forbids extradition for "political crimes", and the only thing which the US has accused him of is expressly political. Ergo there's no good reason to believe that Sweden would extradite him.

Assange is wanted for questioning on alleged hacking cases like the DNC server and Podesta's email. What was Gottfrid Svartholm deported to Denmark for? Alleged hacking. And which part of Sweden's extradition treaty allowed them to hand people over to the CIA for immediate torture?

Either way, you're basically suggesting that both Sweden and the USA need to change their laws in order to accommodate poor little Julian, which is pretty damn funny.

What laws were changed for Sweden to interview 44 suspects in the UK since 2010 without having them extradited first? Assange has offered to do just such an interview in the embassy, or to even return to Sweden if given a no-extradition promise. Even if you think Assange is bluffing, Ecuador would no longer have a reason to grant him asylum, so either way you'd want Sweden to go ahead and make such a guarantee to get his over with. Thus, all the willful dumbfuckery from concern trolls like yourself to hand waive away these inconvenient facts.

Dumb.

Fuck.

Er.

Eee.

Re:Take note, Assange haters

[Uberbah]

He was specifically held in conditions to not allow contact with any other individuals. If it walks like solitary, talks like solitary, looks like solitary....it's probably solitary confinement.

Tomato, tomahtoe.

Re:Take note, Assange haters

[nasch]

OK, I have no idea about the specifics of his case, just wasn't sure if you were equating no visitors with solitary confinement.

Re:Republicans are nazi sympathizer faggot traitor

[Anonymous Coward]

"Set to win" is pretty slanted reporting. He has no opponents in the primary, because the seat is unwinnable by actual Republicans. It does make me wonder if the Republicans can't just kick him off their party, however- I'm honestly not sure if they can.

Re:How cool would it be.....

[Anonymous Coward]

I also like to call him Assenage!

Jus' Sayin'

Do UK Prisons...

[Anonymous Coward]

...not have the same reputation for rape and "inmate justice" that the US prisons have?

Too bad...

[Anonymous Coward]

... they're still trying for an ill-defined crime, that you might as well describe as "making like a bogeyman on teh cybar". What's it mean? No matter. Just convict for great precedent!

Re:Republicans are nazi sympathizer faggot traitor

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course they could kick him out of the party. Of course they can begin to attempt to keep nazis out of their party IF THEY WANTED TO. But since they're nazi faggot traitors first and Americans second, they will not.

Besides, if Russians like Trump can do it?

[WillAffleckUW]

Just saying, if Russians like Trump can hack the fed, is it a crime if some schoolkid in the UK does it?

What percent of US inmates commit suicide?

[micahraleigh]

This judge is a troll and fabricating a caricature of the US.

Re:What percent of US inmates commit suicide?

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell that to Aaron Swartz... oh wait, he killed himself. Nevermind.

Why is this case a "precedent" and not others?

[sl3xd]

I seem to recall other, similar extradition requests - Gary McKinnon for one, but several others.

What makes this one special?

I seem to recall that Gary also had Asperger's and Depression... which doesn't seem to make this one a precedent at all.

Re:Why is this case a "precedent" and not others?

[Anonymous Coward]

Gary McKinnon's extradition was eventually blocked by the Home Secretary, he didn't win a legal case against the extradition.

Re:Lord Butthurt of Maldon

[cayenne8]

....a guy named "Lauri"??

Is this something common in the UK? Sounds like a girls name in the US.

Or, is this a Bruce Jenner "change of life" type thing in this case?

MY SWEET LORD

[Anonymous Coward]

A Boy Named Lauri.

First of many cases

[Solandri]

In the past, physical presence was needed to commit a crime (e.g. robbery). This had the natural result of criminals being caught in the jurisdiction in which they committed the crime. Extradition was only needed for criminals who fled the country after the crime.

The Internet changes all that. Now it's possible to reside in one jurisdiction (country), while committing a crime in another. The legal system is just coming to grips with this. c.f. the U.S. trying to get Microsoft's server data that's stored outside the country, France trying to apply its laws to the rest of the world, Kim Dotcom arrested in New Zealand at the behest of the U.S., etc.

Extradition agreements weren't really set up for suspects who fled to another country, not for this type of remote crime. So from this point on we'll be making up new stuff as we go along. It'll probably be a few more decades before it all gets settled down. If multiple judges rule as this judge has (and the same happens when some American kid hacks UK computers), I expect the U.S. and UK will negotiate new extradition treaties which specifically cover this type of case, thereby limiting the leeway the judge had in this particular case.

Re:First of many cases

[Anonymous Coward]

>The Internet changes all that. Now it's possible to reside in one jurisdiction (country), while committing a crime in another. The legal system is just coming to grips with this.

Whaa? You know youngster it's been possible to commit crimes internationally long before the internet came into being. An obvious example is the illegal drug trade. We've even named a war after it.

Re:First of many cases

[Anonymous Coward]

In the past, physical presence was needed to commit a crime (e.g. robbery). This had the natural result of criminals being caught in the jurisdiction in which they committed the crime. Extradition was only needed for criminals who fled the country after the crime.

Fraud, extortion, bill of sale, and social engineering all come to mind as things that have been crimes for a long time that were and still are done by mail precisely because mail is hard to verify. Honestly, I get what you mean in that a lot of crimes are of a physical nature done by an actor on a victim, but white collar crimes aren't an invention of the internet.

Re: Lord Butthurt of Maldon

[Anonymous Coward]

He's half Finnish. Lauri is a common male name there.

Re:Lord Butthurt of Maldon

[Anonymous Coward]

Just to upset you some more. It is quite possible for an English male to be named "Vivian".

Over there in the states you have guys named "Randy" for goodness sake.

What percent in long term solitary confinement?

[Uberbah]

USG tortured Chelsea Manning - who eventually attempted suicide - with months of solitary confinement.

Re:What percent in long term solitary confinement?

[Anonymous Coward]

1) Manning betrayed the US military, making many of them very angry with him.
2) Manning was put into general, where he was immediately threated with violence by the violent criminals (well trained in violence by the US military) that didn't like what he did.
3) So, Manning was moved to solitary, where there were no violent criminals to beat or kill him. He had regular contact with the guards and with his lawyer.
Obviously this is the US Government deciding to torture Manning. The US government should have instead left him in General, where the criminal soldiers that hated him would have had free access to beat the shit out of him every day.

Re:What percent in long term solitary confinement?

[micahraleigh]

How do you get from N = 1 to "so sure we can't extradite this guy to the US"?

Bradley Manning tortures himself. No surgery on earth can fix that.

What torture does the USG commit? Serve Moscow mules in a non-copper cup? Use bootstrap? What a bunch of snowflakes we are! I say that in the sense of how outrageously sensitive we are about everything.

Re:What percent in long term solitary confinement?

[Uberbah]

Bradley Manning tortures himself. No surgery on earth can fix that.

Bigoted transphobia is noted.

What torture does the USG commit?

That willful obtuseness is just wasting our time and insulting your own intelligence.

Re:What percent in long term solitary confinement?

[Uberbah]

Manning betrayed the US military, making many of them very angry with him.

Not the neocons who lied them into not one but two wars costing trillions of dollars and 8,000+ American lives? GFTO, dipshit.

Re:What percent in long term solitary confinement?

[micahraleigh]

As Mark Twain noted, a bigot is just someone who disagrees with you.

At last. Somebody says "no" to the US.

[Anonymous Coward]

It has bothered me for a long time that the USA can just ask "Give us that guy" and countries bow down and hand "that guy" over.

Jees, I would hope that any country I am a citizen of stands up for my rights. As laid down by my country of citizenship. Not just blindly handing me over to some other jurisdiction on their whim.

The Dot Com case was/is the worst example of this. There are many others.

Bugger off USA. If your government websites are so easy to break, fix them!

Re:At last. Somebody says "no" to the US.

[PPH]

I hope Julian Assange is reading this.

Re: Lord Butthurt of Maldon

[Millennium]

The man behind the Hydraulic Press Channel is named Lauri, in fact.

Re:Lord Butthurt of Maldon

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a dangerous precedence to set here. The crime was committed in the US while the accused was located in the UK.

Preventing cross border attacks to be prosecuted in the count representing the place where the crime was actually committed leads to the problems that have stymied prosecution of crackers and spammers as the jurisdiction they're operating out of doesn't necessarily care about prosecuting as they don't represent the parties harmed.

Re: Lord Butthurt of Maldon

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a proven fact that men named Randy also tend to like fanny...packs.

Mission: Impossible 8 - Extradition

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone get Tom Cruse on the line! I think we have the script for the next Mission: Impossible movie.

Also thinking The Transporter 4: The Really, Super Long Haul.

Re:Lord Butthurt of Maldon

[Anonymous Coward]

(Also, Laurie is a common UK shortening of Laurence).

Re: Lord Butthurt of Maldon

[Anonymous Coward]

Not half as entertaining as American men called âDickâ(TM).

Suckers!

[Anonymous Coward]

Picked the wrong option. Should be interesting to see the results.

Re:Lord Butthurt of Maldon

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, we are talking about a country that seems to think Ashley is a suitable name for a male, so it wouldn't surprise me one bit.

"Lauri Love"

[Anonymous Coward]

That name really threw me for a loop. My first thought was "What the fuck does some porn chick have to do with hacking?"

Seriously, that is one FUCKED UP name for a dude. He probably learned to fight really well from a young age out of necessity.

Gonna Come Back to Bite Them

[OYAHHH]

Britain will regret this decision. At some point in time a criminal wanted in Britain will be in the US and Trump will prevent the extradition. Tit-for-tat....

Re:Gonna Come Back to Bite Them

[Cederic]

I don't care. If Lauri Love broke the law in the UK then he should be prosecuted in the UK. If he didn't break the law in the UK then he hasn't broken the law and shouldn't be extradited.

There are no possible grounds for him being extradited to the USA. Whether the USA want to be stupid about it is irrelevant.

Re:Gonna Come Back to Bite Them

[sabbede]

Yeah, that's not how it works. Laws were broken in both the UK and US, but the victims were in the US so under normal conditions of the extradition treaty the country where the victims are gets to try the case.

Re:Gonna Come Back to Bite Them

[RockDoctor]

That comment applies to the Gary McKinnon case (where the extradition was blocked by a politician - the Home Secretary). In this case, the court system (different branch of government, in both UK and US) denied permission for the extradition. So for comparability, the US court system, not his Trumpetness, would have to deny the extradition of the hypothetical British criminal.

Re: Lord Butthurt of Maldon

[Brockmire]

As they should be (fucking a chick named Randy? Nope. Nope. Nope). Where I'm from, strippers have the decency to call themselves "Randi".

Re: Lord Butthurt of Maldon

[Brockmire]

Dicky > Dick. IMO, anyways.

Re: Lord Butthurt of Maldon

[Brockmire]

My female server last week spells Lawrence and pronounces it like "Lor-once" all frenchy sounding. She was not hot after I heard that.

Re: Lord Butthurt of Maldon

[Evtim]

Seeing the name I immediately thought "Lowry"

- Has anyone seen Mr. Lowry?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Re: Lord Butthurt of Maldon

[q_e_t]

Like Dickie Bird, or Dickie Attenborough?

Re:Lord Butthurt of Maldon

[Demena]

Beverly is also a contender. Beverly can be used for a male in England

Re:Lord Butthurt of Maldon

[Maritz]

Can be, isn't.

illegal immegrant

[Anonymous Coward]

good we don't need yet another illegal immegrant

Re:Lord Butthurt of Maldon

[Demena]

I assure you it is. Just the same as Vivian.

Re: Lord Butthurt of Maldon

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you saying you should have to go to the country where you broke the law despite not having ever been in that country even if the crimes were only over the internet?

I'll pop the popcorn when you're flogged on Saudi TV at the anti-Islam punishment trials; turns out you can't eat pork and film it on YouTube without getting extradited because geniuses like you think agreements like this are smart.

Re: Lord Butthurt of Maldon

[Anonymous Coward]

Bev Bevan of ELO
Vivian Campbell of Def Leppard/Dio

You fuckwits already done worse.

[Anonymous Coward]

When the MoD wanted to hear from two apache pilots who were involved in a "friendly fire" incident", not even wanted for facing charges, just to say what happened in their words, the USA refused. A US squaddie committed a crime in Germany, fled back to the base, and got sent back to the USA and the DoD have refused to let him be extradited to face trial. So waht the fuck are you whining about this biting us in the arse? You did this shit first, asshole.