In Booming Job Market, Workers Are 'Ghosting' Their Employers (washingtonpost.com)

A notorious millennial dating practice is starting to creep into the workplace: ghosting. Employers are noticing with increasing frequency that workers are leaving their jobs by simply not showing up and cutting off contact with their companies [Editor's note: the link may be paywalled; syndicated source]. From a report: "A number of contacts said that they had been 'ghosted,' a situation in which a worker stops coming to work without notice and then is impossible to contact," the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago noted in December's Beige Book, which tracks employment trends. National data on economic "ghosting" is lacking. The term, which usually applies to dating, first surfaced in 2016 on Dictionary.com. But companies across the country say silent exits are on the rise. Analysts blame America's increasingly tight labor market. Job openings have surpassed the number of seekers for eight straight months, and the unemployment rate has clung to a 49-year low of 3.7 percent since September. Janitors, baristas, welders, accountants, engineers -- they're all in demand, said Michael Hicks, a labor economist at Ball State University in Indiana. More people may opt to skip tough conversations and slide right into the next thing.

Comments

Who would do this?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have never done this except perhaps as a teenager. If I leave I tell you in no uncertain terms.

Re:Who would do this?

[jellomizer]

<Platitudes>
Try not to burn your bridges after you cross them. Because the grass only seems greener from the other side.
</Platitudes>

While there is an employment shortage, this isn't a long term issue, and the market will move from an employees market back to an employers market. So if that great new job you got turns sour (because they gave you too much more then what you are actually worth, because of employee scarcity) You may be out of a job, and the company that seemed to suck so much, may still have a spot for you, because its conservative investments meant such a turn in the market didn't hurt them as much.

Re:Who would do this?

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Given that I've never even seen the same employer under 100 employees advertise the same job twice, it's pretty hard NOT to end up burning bridges, but this ghosting seems to take it to a whole new level.

Although, for a salaried employee with automatic deposit whose manager isn't paying much attention, it could be a profitable move, as you'd likely get a couple of pay periods out before they notice your job isn't being done.

Re:Who would do this?

[Jason Levine]

Or that new job you're trying to land might try calling your old position and find out you ghosted them when you left. Then the new company will be less likely to hire you.

Re:Who would do this?

[Anonymous Coward]

Given that I've never even seen the same employer under 100 employees advertise the same job twice, it's pretty hard NOT to end up burning bridges, but this ghosting seems to take it to a whole new level.

I think you are confused. Leaving a job doesn't have to result in burned bridges. It is possible to leave a job without burning bridges.

Re:Who would do this?

[jellomizer]

Leaving a job doesn't burn the bridge. However most of the time people will not reapply back to the same company, unless it is large enough (over 100 employees) where there is a better position for them, because of their job growth withing that period of time in the middle.

2 out of 3 employers that I have worked for are out of business/sold merged to a different company. While I joke that I probably should had left better documents, most of the time the reason those companies had those issue was due leadership deciding to retire.

Re:Who would do this?

[FormOfActionBanana]

I worked for a company that ran out of money, and that they couldn't pay our upcoming paychecks. I left and didn't return, but apparently everyone else kept coming to work and eventually they formed a new company, leaving the original investors with nothing. The CEO kept phoning me but I only communicated with the bankruptcy administrator from that point on.

Re:Who would do this?

[slack_justyb]

Or that new job you're trying to land might try calling your old position and find out you ghosted them when you left. Then the new company will be less likely to hire you.

Okay maybe this is me, but it's completely normal to ask the people interviewing you to hold off on contacting your current employer until a written offer is made. I've never had a company that I went to work for that didn't honor that. What the hell kind of shitty jobs are you thinking folks are going to apply to, because if they trust you that little walking in the door, it's probably best to just walk away anyway.

Additionally, right to work states. Being in a right to work state means the employer or the employee may terminate the position at any time for any reason or no reason at all. So you literally have States that promote ghosting as being completely normal.

Re:Who would do this?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've done it to companies that deserved it. Of course I always secure the new job before doing it.

It's at-will employment baby. Companies have no problem firing people without notice or reason, so it's hypocritical for them to whine and cry when people leave without notice or reason.

Re:Who would do this?

[gwills]

Did you seriously just assert that we're in an "employee market"?

Re: Who would do this?

[reanjr]

That sounds like fraud. While salary is not based on hours, the compensation assumes an effort is being made.

Re:Who would do this?

[Zmobie]

Not really. Most states forbid previous employers from disclosing anything beyond, "Did X person work here?" and "Are they re-hirable?" Many companies try to get around that by asking for managerial references because the manager can then be counted as a personal reference that can disclose whatever they want. The last company I left actually straight up told me they wouldn't disclose anything to another employer just to avoid any possible liability from it, and I left on good terms with them. Basically, if you don't have any contacts you want to keep at the employer you are leaving, burn away if so inclined.

I personally haven't ever done it and don't see that situation ever arising for me, but who knows maybe some of these people were seriously slighted and wanted to teach their employer a lesson.

Re: Who would do this?

[ichimunki]

Does getting your next and current employers into some sort of bidding match actually work out for you? Have you ever managed to stay where you were with a significant increase in pay? Or has it only worked as a negotiation tactic for your next salary? And have you ever negotiated more than $5k with this?

Re:Who would do this?

[Actually, I do RTFA]

I know someone who kept in contact with the CEO in a similar situation. It worked out great for them - they got like 2 months salary as a lump sum, decided to take a quick beach vacation to a beach, and came back to to the legal reformation complete with new solid investors and the same job for more money.

Re:Who would do this?

[Luckyo]

Imagine being the modern youth, raised on the mindset that anything that causes you mental stress is bad and should be avoided. All while being taught that all matters of conflict should be resolved not by your own action, but by appealing to higher power like a parent or a teacher.

Quite a few of us really hate that feeling when we have to turn someone down. At the same time, there's no real higher authority to appeal to to solve this issue. So the logical conclusion is that simply not showing up is the best way of handling this situation.

Now people who had a proper upbringing understand that in such situations, the best closure is to take responsibility on yourself and show up to tell your employer that you're quitting, even if it makes you feel bad, and has a serious potential for interpersonal conflict where there is no higher power to adjudicate it. But modern youth that didn't have parents skilled and persistent enough to override the popular message permeating the upbringing of children over last decade or two, and that were literally told at every point in their upbringing to avoid this kind of scenario and cede responsibility to authority? I'm not so sure.

Re: Who would do this?

[reiterate]

Wouldn't it be more direct to just tell me in certain terms?

Re:Who would do this?

[Megol]

Strange that for each generation there will always be the same types of claims. You are also of a generation the elders knew as spoiled, just as they in turn obviously wouldn't amount to anything when they were young. One would expect total anarchy if each generation became worse like humans have claimed at least since the invention of writing, strange that we don't have that...
TL;DR idiotic claptrap

Re:Who would do this?

[Luckyo]

Strange that one needs to deny things observed in social sciences, pretending them to be anecdotal.

Read Lukianoff's and Haidt's "Coddling of the American Mind" as a good primer on the topic.

Re:Who would do this?

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Why would you leave a job if the employer hadn't already burnt the bridge?

Re: Who would do this?

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Yes. But when it's a reaction to being expected to work 80 hour weeks for that salary, one could look at it as collecting unpaid overtime on the way out.

Re: Who would do this?

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Wow, that's one rather worthless HR department.......or maybe accounting......

Re: Who would do this?

[FuzzyDaddy2]

If you see your employment as a mutually beneficial relationship between equals, then saying goodbye is a common courtesy. Ghosting is an indication of your sense of powerlessness in the relationship.

Re:Who would do this?

[Jason Levine]

Current employer maybe, but what if you've been ghosting a string of employers? The more employers you ghost, the more likely a prospective employer will contact one of your ghosted employers and ask about you.

Well, what's good for the goose is good....

[froggyjojodaddy]

... is good for the gander

If your company is going to lay you off, it's not like they give you a whole lot of notice in most cases. You turn up for work, bright and eyed and bushy tailed, only to find a Manager and HR type waiting to give you some really bad news

Sure, most places have severance, but it's not like they take your feelings into consideration so if employees are just up and leaving, that's behavior the corporation does all the time

Re:Well, what's good for the goose is good....

[t0qer]

Have mod points, but I want some of this action today.

>Sure, most places have severance, but it's not like they take your feelings into consideration so if employees are just up and leaving, that's behavior the corporation does all the time

Oh I've had worse than that. Once worked for an IT outsourcing firm that was $20 in gas away from my house. Super early in my career, wasn't being paid much (I think $36k@year in 1998 or so)

They *could* have just let me go over the phone and mailed a check. I KNEW they were letting me go, and I even said several times, "If you're calling me into the office to let me go, just do it over the phone, no reason to call me in"

"No t0qer it isn't that, just stop by!" the owner said in a cheery voice. Came in, was fired. I raged out on my way out, flipping over chairs and spat on the owners car on my way out.

Re: Well, what's good for the goose is good....

[Aristos Mazer]

The companies still tell you, âoeYouâ(TM)re fired.â You should at least say, âoeI quit.â

Re:Well, what's good for the goose is good....

[Anonymous Coward]

Except if they lay you off, they always tell you. They don't just stop paying you, and hope you suddenly figure it out when that paycheck stops coming.

Unless you have a red stapler, and work at Initech of course.

Re:Well, what's good for the goose is good....

[Darinbob]

That's a bit different than showing up to work only to find that your badge doesn't work and the receptionist won't talk to you. You are told that you're laid off, and an employee should tell their employer if they're leaving as well. For instance, you would be liable to pay back any salary you receive after leaving (since they probably just think you're incapacitated in the hospital or something), and you have to give all your equipment back, and give back the badge key for sure. It's also the sort of thing that can follow you around, such as screwing up future job prospects or lowering your credit score.

Re:Well, what's good for the goose is good....

[jellomizer]

Just because they can do this, and you can do this as well, it doesn't mean it is a good idea to do it.

Because this can have unintended consequences for you.
There was this employee who just got up an quit, to never be seen again. Me as a fellow employee had to pick up his work and get things done. I have moved onto a different place to work, then I see his resume for validation...

Sure the company we both worked at sucked, but he left dumping work on me, so when I see his name I will not get the warm and fuzzy, because no job is perfect and because he just got up and left, we don't know what the issue was or the trigger.

Re:Well, what's good for the goose is good....

[jellomizer]

There was one time we wern't sure if an employee was ghosting or not. Luckily management decided to actually dig in further and realized he was suffering from a major case of depression. Where we were able to get help for him, and kept his job open.
Then there was an other guy, where we actually found out, because he went on vacation and didn't come back, while checking his desk for some work that needed to be done, we found a note under his laptop saying he had quit, and had wiped clean his laptop. (Which was very unprofessional, and couldn't get the work for us to complete)

Re:Well, what's good for the goose is good....

[Anonymous Coward]

The owner is a prick, you should have spat on the owner and flip his car on your way out.

Re:Well, what's good for the goose is good....

[fahrbot-bot]

If your company is going to lay you off, it's not like they give you a whole lot of notice in most cases.

That really depends on the state, company, and layoff. The WARN Act ...

... is a US labor law which protects employees, their families, and communities by requiring most employers with 100 or more employees to provide 60 calendar-day advance notification of plant closings and mass layoffs of employees, ...

Several states have additional laws and many (usually larger) companies adhere to it. I was part of a small(ish) layoff at a large defense contractor and we all got 60 days notice.

State Layoff Notice Laws (WARN Laws)
What Notice Must an Employer Provide for Layoffs?

Re:Well, what's good for the goose is good....

[cyberchondriac]

It's not really a perfect equivalence though.. at least the employer is still telling you the relationship is severed.
Imagine driving to the office one day and the building is abandoned, just totally empty. They moved overnight (somehow) and no one told you. ;)

Re:Well, what's good for the goose is good....

[drinkypoo]

I had this happen to me when I worked for adaq/mobile information systems. Not just that but I was opening the office that day so I came in at 6AM. That really taught me the lesson that I owe my employer nothing they haven't paid for, period.

Re: Well, what's good for the goose is good....

[edris90]

No most places do not have severance, except for the elite. And that's only be cause those kind of people have the personal holdings to cause a legal nightmare at their own expense,. If you piss them off. But if you need your income, they won't give you severance.

Re: Well, what's good for the goose is good....

[froggyjojodaddy]

I suspect you might be American. In Canada, severance applies to everyone. With very, very few exceptions.

at will employment goes both ways!

[Joe_Dragon]

at will employment goes both ways!

Fuck you bill I'm not working weekends after being told at 4:55 PM on Friday and go fuck your self and put that in the TPS report.

Re:at will employment goes both ways!

[froggyjojodaddy]

That was my sentiment too.

I'm up in Canada so 'at will' doesn't apply but I have personally the cold-hearted way companies treat hard working employees, and it's brutal. I imagine for people in demand, it's not even the fact they want to avoid 'tough discussions' - it's just that there's no "relationship" with a corporation. I bet the vast majority of people who leave will miss their colleagues and the people, but no-one is missing the "corporation".

Incidentally, I've seen what happens when you try to have that 'tough discussion'. The company may offer you a pay increase to stay, but you will be forever be labelled as "that guy who just wanted more money" despite the fact that a company exists only to make it's shareholders or owners money....

Re:at will employment goes both ways!

[Todd Knarr]

At-will is fine, but that means you can tell your employer "I won't be in tomorrow, I'm quitting." as you leave. It doesn't mean you don't give them any indication you're quitting. At-will is not the same as ghosting.

Omg

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

Isn't this what your emergency contact is for? So they can contact your dad or brother and tell them you've dropped off the face of the earth, go to his house to see if he's dead in front of the computer, pantsdown.

Re:Omg

[Nidi62]

Isn't this what your emergency contact is for? So they can contact your dad or brother and tell them you've dropped off the face of the earth, go to his house to see if he's dead in front of the computer, pantsdown.

I actually know someone this (similar) situation happened to. Guy didn't show up for work and no one could contact him which was out of his character. They send someone to check at his house and find him dead on the floor of a heart attack. Nice guy too.

Re:Omg

[Anonymous Coward]

He really did ghost his employer.

Burning bridges is not good for the resume

[Lucas123]

While you may feel like a boss by not giving a notice to your former employer, there's a strong possibility it will come back to bite you in the arse when it's time for references.

Re:Burning bridges is not good for the resume

[omnichad]

Unless their next future boss is also a similar millennial and wouldn't call the references on the phone. I mean, having them written down is good enough. Probably.

Re:Burning bridges is not good for the resume

[TWX]

It's also an issue if you work in an industry that has few employers, especially when such industries inevitably find those employers merging or purchasing each other.

There are a half-dozen firms here that do the kind of engineering that my wife's education and work experience apply-to. She may not intend to go back to work for a firm that she has left, but it would be foolish to ensure being ineligible for rehire when she might find it necessary or find that a company she later works for is now part of that original company again.

Additionally, most of these firms inevitably have joint projects or end up as suppliers for each other, so business-contact with former coworkers is pretty common, no sense in making that worse.

Re:Burning bridges is not good for the resume

[Mike Van Pelt]

While you may feel like a boss by not giving a notice to your former employer, there's a strong possibility it will come back to bite you in the arse when it's time for references.

In theory, I'm too close to retirement for "references" to be much of a motivation.

In practice, I would give notice. It's just the right thing to do. Even if they were to massively tick me off. (Which isn't likely; the company is pretty good people.)

Enough

[Anonymous Coward]

How many times is this subject going to be posted here?

Burning Bridges

[Only Time Will Tell]

I'd be hesitant about using this practice, especially in small markets where everyone knows each other. Our college placement office had a story of a student who accepted an offer from a company but continued to go on interviews afterward. They got another offer, but the partners of the two companies (accounting firms) talked to each other and found out what happened and both rescinded their offers. If you get a reputation of being unreliable and leaving without any contact, it may haunt you in the next downturn. Two weeks isn't much time to stick it out, and if you have an immediate offer, at least tell the previous employer why (and probably expect to not work there again).

Re:Burning Bridges

[DRJlaw]

I'd be hesitant about using this practice, especially in small markets where everyone knows each other. Our college placement office had a story of a student who accepted an offer from a company but continued to go on interviews afterward. They got another offer, but the partners of the two companies (accounting firms) talked to each other and found out what happened and both rescinded their offers.

How dare someone shop for competitive offers. Did your college placement office notify applicants that those employers colluded with each other to limit competition for prospective employees? Did it permit those employers to continue to interview on campus? If so, why?

If you get a reputation of being unreliable and leaving without any contact, it may haunt you in the next downturn. Two weeks isn't much time to stick it out, and if you have an immediate offer, at least tell the previous employer why (and probably expect to not work there again).

How does your anecdote demonstrate unreliability? Did they accept the offer and continue to interview? I'm genuinely curious as to how you're connecting a job search in which an applicant has no obligation to accept an offer of employment, much less apply exclusively at an employer like some sort of early-decisions admission at a college, with failing to appear at a job that one is already working at after failing to provide notice.

Re:Burning Bridges

[tippen]

I'd be hesitant about using this practice, especially in small markets where everyone knows each other. Our college placement office had a story of a student who accepted an offer from a company but continued to go on interviews afterward. They got another offer, but the partners of the two companies (accounting firms) talked to each other and found out what happened and both rescinded their offers.

How dare someone shop for competitive offers. Did your college placement office notify applicants that those employers colluded with each other to limit competition for prospective employees? Did it permit those employers to continue to interview on campus? If so, why?

Reading comprehension fail... It's not that they were interviewing with multiple companies. That's perfectly normal. The problem is they kept interviewing after they accepted an offer. It's the equivalent of a company continuing to interview people for a position after someone has accepted the offer but not started yet.

Re:Burning Bridges

[DRJlaw]

Dangit. You nailed it. Completely blew by that, as demonstrated by where I asked that exact question.

Re:Burning Bridges

[grasshoppa]

Also; in professional communities, coworkers are always aware of who the flakes are. I have had several opportunities to recommend people for positions, and I always keep in mind who's likely to embarrass me if I make that recommendation, as well as who I'd be proud to have recommended.

Re:Burning Bridges

[tippen]

Glad to hear it. Restores a bit of my faith in humanity given some of the other responses in this topic.

Ethics? Professionalism? What are those?!

If nothing else, people should learn that the world isn't all that big. It's very rare when I'm more than 2 or 3 connections away from someone that worked with people that interview at my company. Do you really want that reputation to follow you on your career?

Re:Burning Bridges

[tippen]

Have you never been involved with hiring for a large business? That is exactly what fortune 500 do. It's a way to depress salaries.

HP and IBM big enough for you? Several years at both and hired many people personally, not to mention the people hiring managers reporting to me hired. Never saw that sort of behavior.

Same's true from my time at mid-sized companies and early-stage startups.

Interviewing candidates isn't exactly "fun". You celebrate that you filled the position and move on to the 1000 other things on your TODO list. There's no time to keep interviewing for a position you've already filled.

100%

[Anonymous Coward]

People always seem to forget this. Nobody is forcing you to work for your employer. They can *ask* for a two week notice but they can't *make* you give them *any* notice.

Re:100%

[Darinbob]

But you can't just walk off with the company badge key, or keep the laptop at home, etc. Maybe the article is just talking about hourly workers, but even then you have a good chance of getting blacklisted by the union or future employers. If you're not salaried, you certainly can be sued and companies aren't shy about this.

Re:100%

[jellomizer]

I don't think people forget this at all. If you are professional, you want to leave with a good impression with the company. For good references, good relations with your fellow employees who may be hiring managers in the future, and if things go south, there may be an other company to get hired again with.

Re:100%

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL. No judge is going to say an employee can't quit their job. It's the FREE market and employment is at-will. If you don't like that, then maybe you should move to North Korea where you will feel more at home.

Nice strawman with the badge key and laptop theft you fabricated for the argument though.

Re:100%

[DaFallus]

I don't think people forget this at all. If you are professional, you want to leave with a good impression with the company. For good references, good relations with your fellow employees who may be hiring managers in the future, and if things go south, there may be an other company to get hired again with.

The main reason you give two weeks notice is so that people have time for knowledge transfer and your co-workers can make arrangements to pick up your workload. Even if you and all of your coworkers hate your managers and company, if you ever actually did any work and then disappeared, your coworkers are going to be scrambling to pick up the pieces and cursing your name. If your intention is to screw over your coworkers there are probably better ways to do so because they're just going to blame everything on you after you disappeared anyway because its not like you'll be around to defend yourself.

The majority of the time it is in your best interest to play nice. Sadly, that isn't always reciprocated. One time I left a job I hated for a new opportunity with a big fortune 500. 9 months later I was laid off because my new employer was constantly playing musical chairs at the executive level so every month priorities would change and entire departments would get cut to the bone. I tried crawling back to my old job, but I guess my old boss was so offended when I quit that she never returned any of my calls.

Re:100%

[Jfetjunky]

There we go. Finally. Is this what we've come to? Doing the worst because you think someone might do that same to you. No wonder this society is in the shitter.

"But, but, they'd do it to me!". Oh please, grow up. If you want to be treated professionally, then be professional. If you don't get treated professionally, move on when the time is right, be professional, and never look back. Positive change doesn't come from acting first and playing tit for tat. It comes from doing what you know is right even when you might not expect to see a return.

What benefit does just walking out possibly have? Yeah, you might feel cool for a day or two, but you've burnt a bridge. Do you think the company cries itself to sleep at night now wondering where you are? So what are you left with? Only negatives, no positives.

Re:100%

[Anonymous Coward]

When playing with a known defector, you don't play nice once.

Re:100%

[serviscope_minor]

. Oh please, grow up. If you want to be treated professionally, then be professional. If you don't get treated professionally, move on when the time is right, be professional, and never look back. Positive change doesn't come from acting first and playing tit for tat. It comes from doing what you know is right even when you might not expect to see a return. What benefit does just walking out possibly have? Yeah, you might feel cool for a day or two, but you've burnt a bridge.

That all works both ways. Now, I can't see myself ever doing this but...

Some companies are shitty. If they've already burned the bridge with you, flipping another match at is isn't going to make it any more burned.

Re:100%

[Actually, I do RTFA]

Some companies are shitty. If they've already burned the bridge with you...

And no one there might go to a better company ever?

Re:100%

[Junta]

If you clock in and clock out, you probably would be in the clear legally.

If you are not in such a position and the checks kept coming after you stopped showing up, I could imagine a company coming after the person for wages paid after services stopped being provided.

Re:100%

[serviscope_minor]

And no one there might go to a better company ever?

Yes, and? A reasonable attitude in hindsight was "wow that was a shitty company why the hell did'd I give my 2 weeks notice ans quit (or fuck right off like the other guy)".

If someone's holding a grudge 5 years out over that then be thankful you're not working with them again.

Re:100%

[Actually, I do RTFA]

Huh, it's unlikely in 5 yeas they'll remember much, but if they do its because they had to take over your project with no handoff or something and are pissed at you. Because screwing the company normally means they make up for it by abusing the coworkers you left behind more.

Sorry, but no

[SuperKendall]

If your company is going to lay you off, it's not like they give you a whole lot of notice in most cases.

Do you WANT more companies to do that?

If not why escalate like that?

Telling other people you plan to leave, is just basic human decency.

There is nothing good about either side giving the other one no warning about actions like this.

Besides, the equivalent to what YOU are talking about it not a company laying you off unexpectedly. It's more like if you kept coming to work and after two weeks you just got no paycheck, and the company said "we fired you but dd not tell you".

Re:Sorry, but no

[DickBreath]

> Telling other people you plan to leave, is just basic human decency.

Telling other people you plan to ${ fire | lay off | downsize } them is just basic human decency.

Oh, but businesses have no basic human decency.

If you were to tell an employer that you were leaving, that would give them advance opportunity to begin looking for your replacement instead of leaving them suddenly unprepared -- as they do to you.

I have known people who gave advance notice and left on great terms. And I would also do the same. But that's because I like who I work for.

Gee, that makes me wonder what kind of relationship employees have who just stop showing up. Hmmmm. Maybe you should rant more about the employers than the employees.

Re:Sorry, but no

[Darinbob]

"We, uh, we fixed the glitch so he won't be receiving a paycheck anymore so it'll just work itself out naturally. We always like to avoid conrontation whenever possible. The problem is solved from your end."

Re:Sorry, but no

[garcia]

I recently went to a competitor. I knew theyâ(TM)d walk me out the door ceremoniously. I saved myself the embarrassment and the company the assholishness and just resigned off-site and walked away.

My team was ready with the news and knew what to do do nothing terrible happened but why should I submit myself to the horseshit just so we can all pretend weâ(TM)re all playing nice?

Re:Sorry, but no

[SuperKendall]

Telling other people you plan to ${ fire | lay off | downsize } them is just basic human decency.

Yes, and most companies I have been at do that, or at least give a decent severance to anyone let go.

So your point was????

Gee, that makes me wonder what kind of relationship employees have who just stop showing up.

It doesn't make me wonder at all. Those employees are assholes, plain and simple. It doesn't matter what the company is like, you do what you do because of who YOU ARE, not because of who THEY ARE.

If the company are an asshole and you think you are just being an asshole back by leaving without saying anything - guess what, you are BOTH assholes.

Don't be an asshole. it will be remembered, forever, by all non-assholes that work there.

Re:Sorry, but no

[SuperKendall]

The point is you still let them know (resigned off-site). Even a phone call or text message is still basic decency of saying "I won't be coming in any more".

I'm not even saying you have to give any advance notice if a company has been particularly crappy to you (or sometimes circumstances are such that you can't give advance notice - you do what you can).

You as a human being have an obligation to yourself to be as decent as you can be. You still let them know.

It will be remembered, whichever way you choose to do it. Karma is an abstract concept that people may or may not believe in, but Karma is very very real when it comes to how employees treat other employees, and their employer. People leave companies, go on to other companies, they remember.

Re:Sorry, but no

[sjames]

On the other hand, plenty of 38 hr/week "part-time" employees have gotten the old you're not fired, you just didn't get any hours this week and we don't think you'll get any next week either treatment.

Re:Sorry, but no

[ShanghaiBill]

Telling other people you plan to ${ fire | lay off | downsize } them is just basic human decency.

... and nearly all companies do that. When companies do immediate layoffs with no severance it is usually because the are bankrupt and going out of business, and the "evil" managers are losing their jobs as well.

Oh, but businesses have no basic human decency.

Most of them do ... because it is good business.

Can you name a single company that, in the last decade, did a mass layoff with immediate effect and no severance?

Re:Sorry, but no

[Dins]

Even a phone call or text message is still basic decency of saying "I won't be coming in any more".

We had a relatively new employee who was pretty good, and had been with us for a couple months. All signs pointed to her being a welcome addition. One morning her supervisor got a voice mail from her saying she was sick and wouldn't be coming in. Ok, fine. The next day he got another voice mail from her stating, "I won't be in again." Ok, fine. Must be the flu or something. Several days passed without notice and without the employee. We were left trying to figure out where she was and what was going on until one of us realized her voice mail meant, "I won't be in again. Ever." We never heard from her again. Shame really - she had potential, or so we thought.

Re:Sorry, but no

[93 Escort Wagon]

Telling other people you plan to leave, is just basic human decency.

Plus even if you hate the company's management, it's only fair to your coworkers - they're the ones who will be covering your duties once you've left.

Re:Sorry, but no

[SuperKendall]

until one of us realized her voice mail meant, "I won't be in again. Ever."

Fortnite is a hell of a drug.

Re:Sorry, but no

[bill_mcgonigle]

https://www.stltoday.com/busin...

Re:Sorry, but no

[FrankSchwab]

"When companies do immediate layoffs with no severance it is usually because the are bankrupt and going out of business, and the "evil" managers are losing their jobs as well."

Re:Sorry, but no

[euxneks]

The sum total of what you "owe" a corporation is jack shit. You are literally giving a part of your life so they can make money off you. It is better for yourself to let your current corporate overlord know that you're leaving so you can get a good reference if you think you'll get it, but otherwise it's not up to you to make finding a replacement easy.

Work to live, don't live to work.

Re:Sorry, but no

[ShanghaiBill]

https://www.stltoday.com/busin...

These workers had walked off the job, hadn't come to work in a week, and had been told that their actions would push the company into bankruptcy. But you are right, somehow the company wasn't compassionate enough to give them unearned money that didn't exist.

Re:Sorry, but no

[Pig Hogger]

Telling other people you plan to leave, is just basic human decency.

Companies are not human, so they can’t have human decency.

Re:Sorry, but no

[rtb61]

Disposable workers == disposable employers == disposable customers. You get what you create.

Re:Sorry, but no

[Dins]

This actually made me laugh out loud. WTF dude? :p

Re: Sorry, but no

[Dins]

Could be in a similar situation, but pretty sure not here. This was a long time ago (probably 20 years), and we later found out she had relationship issues and had moved back home. Also, at that particular time there were a ton of career options for her within the company. She definitely ghosted us though.

I'm a manager now, but I was just an employee for a long time (didn't want management stress). I understand the ghosting issues from both sides, and part of me would cheer an employee for just saying fuck it and disappearing.

That reasoning creates a race to the bottom

[Solandri]

If everyone adopts your reasoning, employees will quit without giving notice. Employers will let employees go without severance or adequate notice.

For the best outcome, everyone has to be considerate of each other. Employers have to give employees adequate notice, and provide severance to help carry the ex-employee through while they find another job. Employees have to give their employers adequate notice, and wrap up their projects and help train their replacement employee before they leave.

Also, being a jerk to a company you work at just because another company screwed you over, is no different from a company being a jerk to an employee just because another employee screwed them over. Again, that sort of behavior just creates a race to the bottom, and is in fact the basis of all discrimination. Retribution needs to target the company or individual who wronged you, not someone else who just happens to belong to the same class, type, race, gender, etc.

Re:That reasoning creates a race to the bottom

[dirk]

While I agree in theory with what you are saying, as the article says, this is a new thing for workers to ghost employers. In the past, most people have given notice and it is still not uncommon for companies to lay off/fire people without notice or severance. So the idea that people giving notice will make employers act better has been tried and failed. The fact is, companies can and do fire people without notice or severance, so why should employees not "fire" the companies in the same way?If a company is unhappy with you they just cut you off, if you are unhappy with your employer, you should be able to do the same.

Re:That reasoning creates a race to the bottom

[Darinbob]

The purpose of severance pay is a bribe so that you don't sue for being unfairly terminated. You have to sign the legal docs before you get the extra pay.

If an employer screws around an employee, the word gets out. Over time they find it more difficult to hire quality employees. The same happens the other way, word will get out about the problem employees as well and they will find it harder to get hired.

Re:That reasoning creates a race to the bottom

[froggyjojodaddy]

I think, perhaps, I didn't articulate what I meant properly

What I'm saying is that if your company treats you right, is courteous, professional, and considerate, you will in all likelihood repay that favor when it comes to you leaving. If your company mistreats you, then you are more likely to exhibit the same attitude when you leave. If everyone just considerate of each other, you wouldn't have this situation - but we all know that's not the case.

In other words, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". I'm not religious but this whole story is just the 'Golden Rule' applying itself.

Re:That reasoning creates a race to the bottom

[ilsaloving]

Employers will let employees go without severance or adequate notice.

You say that as if they haven't been doing this already, for a very long time now.

While I can't say that I agree with idea of ghosting (it's pretty unprofessional and risks burning bidges), I can certainly understand the motivation. Especially if it was done to the kind of employer that would sell their own mother for a wooden nickle, like far too many companies do.

Re:That reasoning creates a race to the bottom

[Mike Van Pelt]

The few times I've been laid off, they didn't have any of that sort of "legal docs" for the two weeks severance pay.

Now, Cisco did have some legal docs. There was a fairly decent severance package without signing them. With signing them... let's just say, it was a pretty substantial bribe. Oh, yeah, where's that dotted line? Hey, do you want me to sign it twice?

Re:That reasoning creates a race to the bottom

[vlueboy]

So the idea that people giving notice will make employers act better has been tried and failed. The fact is, companies can and do fire people without notice or severance, so why should employees not "fire" the companies in the same way?

Funny, I have a tab open from the historical /. sidebar about 2005 slashdotters' negative consequences of resigning professionally for what was basically a considerate deed: giving your boss notice (2 weeks or more)

Maybe job ghosting is the logical next step in the arms war, though I don't condone it. Not long ago we had a post here about new hires who just did not bother with their first day. Ironically there is a dissonance as society becomes both
a) more aware of our personal lives at scale (blunders/petty crimes following you forever beyond your local neighborhood, personal life reaching your boss thru social networks or doxing )
b) and impersonal (robocalls, callcenter volume declines while SOP discourages any phone contact because they can substitute emails, websites and apps)

Re:That reasoning creates a race to the bottom

[thegarbz]

and it is still not uncommon for companies to lay off/fire people without notice or severance

Are they in breach of contract or are people just too dumb to lawyer up? That would be illegal in most western countries, and you wouldn't even need to resort to lawyers since many governments have labour departments that actively investigate cases where the contract isn't upheld.

Seen This Before

[Oswald McWeany]

This has been around at least a decade. I don't know if it was a cultural thing or a coincidence, but place I was working at about a decade ago we had three employees do this in the course of 2 months; interestingly they were all Indian (from India not Native American)- I don't know if it is part of their culture.

I remember thinking it was odd then- and I still do. One of them we found out ended up in New York, so I guess he figured what happened in smallish town South Carolina wouldn't bit him in the butt- I don't know what happened to the other two. Around here you want to behave because there are only 3 or 4 big employers. Chances are if you piss one off, when it's time to look next time you will have former co-workers at the other locations ready to say what you did.

Repost

[apoc.famine]

Has anything changed from 6 months ago when we saw this story?

Re:Repost

[Nidi62]

Has anything changed from 6 months ago when we saw this story?

They had hired someone to make sure the mods never posted dupes, but they stopped showing up for work.

Re:Repost

[painandgreed]

Has anything changed from 6 months ago when we saw this story?

Following user request, they are trying to bring back the feel of the old Slashdot.

Re:Repost

[phantomfive]

I thought of that story, too. They are different because that one talks about job applicants, whereas this one is about people who have already been working for a while.

Heroin.

[Kaenneth]

Heroin.

Company behavior is to blame.

[crashumbc]

This wouldn't happen if companies...
Paid their employees a proper wage
Didn't over work employees
Didn't fire them on a whim

The current job market is giving employees some power as they are no longer disposable. Companies are still treating employees as if they were. Ergo employees are rightfully shitting on them.

Re:Company behavior is to blame.

[technosaurus]

I think I will call this a "reverse milton". (Reference to Office Space)

Re:Company behavior is to blame.

[HiThere]

I think it's more related to the way a lot of companies treat employees who admit they are leaving. And you're never certain you know the honest truth about your current employer.

That said, i still think it's a foolish move. Even before the internet, employers shared data about employees with each other.

I've done this my last 3 jobs

[Anonymous Coward]

I now make $400,000 a year and their shitty businesses are failing lollllllll.

Guess they should have treated their employees better? Why, they can fire you instantly too anytime they please, with no notice.

Both ways

[bobstreo]

if the culture of the job is bad enough, why not collect a few extra paychecks by just leaving without notice. It's better than waiting around to be laid off because you're too old or your management doesn't value your contributions.

It's not like conditions will improve for the people left behind.

I've seen people commit employment Hari-Kari by trying to use HR to address work issues. (Hint: HR doesn't work for you, and your complaints are not confidential, no matter what they tell you)

Re:Both ways

[110010001000]

Because it is unprofessional and the people you work with today you might be working with (or for) again.

Re:Both ways

[fahrbot-bot]

why not collect a few extra paychecks by just leaving without notice

If you don't fill in your time-sheet, you're not going to get paid. If you do (or are "salaried" and don't complete a time sheet) you might be committing fraud. In addition, if you have direct deposit, the company can also debit those over-paid funds from your account. If you're going this route, it would better burn your vacation and/or other paid time off, *then* just give notice you're leaving immediately.

It's better than waiting around to be laid off ...

Um... I got laid off and received $$$ in severance and my first few months of COBRA paid for by the company -- which then turned out to be *way* less expensive than the available options in my area on Healthcare.gov. Most people qualify for COBRA, even when leaving voluntarily, but "ghosting" your employer *might* count as "for cause" and disqualify you for both COBRA and unemployment benefits.

Re:Both ways

[fahrbot-bot]

Though I am not sure if you even qualify for COBRA if you voluntarily leave a company.

Yes you are eligible.

From Health Plans & Benefits: Continuation of Health Coverage - COBRA (and other sources):

The Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act (COBRA) gives workers and their families who lose their health benefits the right to choose to continue group health benefits provided by their group health plan for limited periods of time under certain circumstances such as voluntary or involuntary job loss, reduction in the hours worked, transition between jobs, death, divorce, and other life events.

And you are eligible if you are covered under your employer's plan before the qualifying event even for just one day.

On the other hand... From other sources:

You are not eligible for COBRA, if you were terminated from your employment because of gross negligence (or "for cause"), or if your employer simply cancelled or changed its health insurance plan.

There is a Disconnect

[Anonymous Coward]

Janitors, baristas, welders, accountants, engineers -- they're all in demand, said Michael Hicks, a labor economist at Ball State University in Indiana.

I keep reading and hearing about the tight labor pool. But, I have two family members who have been unable to find a job for 6-12 months.

One Is experienced with a good work history, laid off 6 months ago. Virtually no call backs or interviews. The suspicion is that she's "too old" at 46? 46 is too old? WTF?

The other is a "recent" BioMed Science grad with no work history. No call backs and no interviews in 12 months. He's looking at fast food now.

Re:There is a Disconnect

[tepples]

Have the two family members considered proactive relocation to a different city where their skills are in demand?

ANYONE

[PortHaven]

Who in the recent decade of depression saw numerous companies a) let workers go with little to no warning and no compensation or b) witnessed the extremely common scenario where an employee informs their employer they are taking a new job, gives their two weeks notice, and are immediately escorted out the building and left with no job for two weeks.

Companies keep trying to pull shit on employees. I don't think these greedy CEO's realize that there are consequences for their policies. If employers fail to respect 2 weeks notice, than they cannot expect their employees to do so. If corporations find every loophole and means to pay their employees less regardless of the effect on their employees. Than employers can't complain when those same folks keep jumping jobs for more money - if YOU make it ALL about money, than expect it to be all about MONEY.

Re:ANYONE

[TomBauserman]

If you give two weeks notice. Then these companies want to do an exit interview to figure out why you're leaving and make you feel guilty for leaving because you're not showing showing dedication to company and team spirit. Fuck them.

Re: ANYONE

[reanjr]

So just say, "I quit". No need to passively aggressively disappear, leading people on a social media chase to see if you're just dealing with a family emergency, or got hit by a car or whatever.

Re:ANYONE

[Anonymous Coward]

They won't give you 2 weeks when they quit on you(fire you), so there's really no need to give them 2 weeks when you quit them.

Re:ANYONE

[FormOfActionBanana]

People marched out the door are paid their two weeks' notice period. This is a good policy for some roles, to remove the risk of data spillage and to avoid lowering morale in the remaining coworkers.

Re: ANYONE

[TomBauserman]

I've never ghosted a company. I did just up and quit a place where I was IT director and they wouldn't listen to me on how to do data conversion for a software transition. It ended up taking twice as long as it needed to be and they had people working insane hours for months to try and make up for it. So at 1am when I had been there since 5a. I just got up told the owner I quit went to my office grabbed my stuff and went home.

Re:ANYONE

[ShanghaiBill]

Then these companies want to do an exit interview to figure out why you're leaving and make you feel guilty

I have never heard of an exit interview trying to make anyone feel guilty. If they are going to try to convince you to stay, that would happen before the exit interview.

I have quit a few jobs. Each time I gave them a several page document that explained what I saw as the problems in their company and what I thought they should do to fix things. In at least one instance, many of my suggestions were implemented, and several of my ex-coworkers thanked me for writing the document, which management had circulated around the company.

Try to be part of the solution, instead of just a whiner.

Re:ANYONE

[syn3rg]

This is much more satisfying

Re:ANYONE

[Anonymous Coward]

BS I gave two weeks notice and was walked out. They didn't pay till I threatened to sue.

Re:ANYONE

[Vanyle]

Giving two weeks notice is proper. If a company is laying off employees they do give notice as soon as they can. It is actually mandated by some laws (WARN act in California). If a company fires someone without that notice, it is generally because they are incompetent or inefficient (they are paying you more than you are making them).

Lets put this in a scenario with you being the consumer. If you hire a contractor to install windows at your house they give you an estimate, a lot gives firm quotes as well, but some give estimates. If you see they are goofing off would you give them 2 weeks notice before canceling the contract? Would you sue them after 4 weeks of not having their work done?

Re:ANYONE

[Kyr Arvin]

Who in the recent decade of depression saw numerous companies a) let workers go with little to no warning and no compensation or b) witnessed the extremely common scenario where an employee informs their employer they are taking a new job, gives their two weeks notice, and are immediately escorted out the building and left with no job for two weeks.

Unless you're working at the company from Office Space, you tend to actually be told that you're fired.
You have the obligation to tell them you quit, just like they have the obligation to tell you you're fired.

Re:ANYONE

[gwills]

Why would you give sound, actionable, FREE advice to your shitty ex-employer. If anything you should have been focused on gas-lighting the exit interviewer

Re:ANYONE

[Anonymous Coward]

Then these companies want to do an exit interview to figure out why you're leaving and make you feel guilty

I have never heard of an exit interview trying to make anyone feel guilty. If they are going to try to convince you to stay, that would happen before the exit interview.

I have quit a few jobs. Each time I gave them a several page document that explained what I saw as the problems in their company and what I thought they should do to fix things. In at least one instance, many of my suggestions were implemented, and several of my ex-coworkers thanked me for writing the document, which management had circulated around the company.

Try to be part of the solution, instead of just a whiner.

That is an admirable sentiment but painful experience has taught us to assume that employers and management are a bunch of blood sucking sociopathic slave masters until they prove us wrong (unlikely but not entirely impossible).

Re:ANYONE

[Anonymous Coward]

THIS

Twice in my life I have given 2 weeks notice at the end of a day.
Twice in my life I was 'fired' the next morning.
The assholes actually made me drive all the way into work, get in through the door, and THEN fired me with no pay for the lost time.

Never again.
Business (and the laws they buy) now reaps what it sows.

Re:ANYONE

[ShanghaiBill]

Why would you give sound, actionable, FREE advice to your shitty ex-employer.

Because they actually weren't that shitty. They were trying to do the right thing, but just failing at it.

There are plenty of people that need to learn to do their jobs better, but they are not malicious or uncaring, just incompetent.

In Hollywood movies, bad things happen because evil people make them happen. Real life is rarely like that.

Re:ANYONE

[haruchai]

"Then these companies want to do an exit interview to figure out why you're leaving and make you feel guilty for leaving because you're not showing showing dedication to company and team spirit. Fuck them"

Whenever HR has asked me for an exit interview, I've sent them a meeting request for lunch at an expensive restaurant.
I've never been bothered after that.

Re:ANYONE

[Anonymous Coward]

I have quit a few jobs. Each time I gave them a several page document that explained what I saw as the problems in their company and what I thought they should do to fix things.

Yeah, screw that. Why the fuck would I want to help someone else get rich without compensation?\

Try to be part of the solution, instead of just a whiner.

You're projecting. The people who silently leave are the opposite of whiners. You are the one whining here, junior.

Re:ANYONE

[lonechicken]

Most of the time, the shitty company that treated your former co-worker poorly isn't going to be the same company you're about to decide whether to give notice or ghost.

Re: ANYONE

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't have to do the exit interview. But quitting without giving notice can screw you in case the job a later job has a boss that find out about it.

Just give as much notice as you can unless they immediately escort folks out of the building when they give their notice.

Re:ANYONE

[Harinezumi]

You don't owe 2 weeks' notice to your boss, you owe it to the rest of your team, who are going to be left holding the bag when you're gone. If you're the sort of person who'd screw over your former co-workers like that, I would not want to be your current co-worker.

Re:ANYONE

[R3d M3rcury]

I've worked for companies that have given notice to employees that their jobs will be discontinued in n months. Re-orgs and the like. And I've never had a company escort me out on the day I turned in my two-week notice (at least without paying me).

You're right--I've had days when I've come into work and I was laid off. Not a great day, granted. But at least they told me. Yes, the boss came into the conference room and said we were laid off, turned the meeting over to the HR person and walked out.

Ghosting is sort of the equivalent of showing up at the front door and finding the company is no longer there. Or, worse yet, not telling you you're fired and hoping you'll just figure it out.

Re:ANYONE

[uncqual]

The WARN act in California only applies to layoffs/closures/relocations of more than some number/percentage of workers. It does not apply, for example, to individual "for cause" which is commonly used to get around the WARN acts - suddenly workers who have been getting good performance reviews for years, without warning, are told that their performance isn't good enough and they are being let go.Of course, this happens in waves that look suspiciously like layoffs by another name.

Re:ANYONE

[farble1670]

Unless you're not getting paid

Your suggestion is that employers are asking ex-employers to come in after their employment ends to provide feedback? Yeah, no.

or not getting paid fairly

If you accepted the position that's on you. You can walk away any time you want. Hard to understand what's not fair about that.

If you tell them how to fix their company, then your pay should be commensurate with the value of that information. Personally, if I thought a company could and would fix shit based on my advice, I'd want a large amount of stock or perpetual royalties out of it.

If you aren't getting paid well, or treated well, perhaps you aren't the shining gem you think. It might explain your lack of compensation.

Re:ANYONE

[ShanghaiBill]

You are naive. No company cares about you, they only care about money. If you provide ANYTHING to a company, you should demand payment for it.

I have over 30 years of experience in tech, mostly in Silicon Valley, but also a few years working for defense contractors in northern Virginia, and several years in East Asia (China and Japan). I am not naive.

During that time I have formed many deep friendships with managers, and with people I managed. The people at the companies I worked for certainly seemed to care about me, about my family, and about my professional development. Nearly everyone I have worked with has been decent and constructive.

I have also met a few cynical shitheads who contribute nothing, and often get themselves into toxic situations that confirm their world view. You sound like one of these.

Re:ANYONE

[Hasaf]

It has happened to me both ways. I gave the company two weeks notice and that afternoon I was fired. At which point I went out to the parking lot, got in my car, and drove home. It was a company car. ... of course, I then arranged with a former co-worker to drive me home after I got my stuff out of the car and drove it back to the office.

The next place I worked, at essentially the same job, was very different. After I gave them notice I was asked to spend my time getting everything in order and taking my replacement to all of the major clients and introducing him with great praise. . . . all I can say is that it was a shame they didn't promote to management from within. If they did, I would have stayed.

Of course, they carried that weakness to other levels too. There was no way a line manager could promote there either, they also hired area managers from the outside too. It was a great place to work for people who didn't want to move. When people left they still treated them great. For years I continued to use their corporate rate at hotels and they just sent me a bill, that provided me with a steep discount. there were other perks that I continued to draw on. . . . As you can tell, I kind of miss that place, it was just the stupid, no upward movement, policy that chased people away.

All I can say is that places that are treated poorly by their employees need to remember, culture starts at the top.

Re:ANYONE

[narcc]

Selfishness used to be considered a vice.

Re:ANYONE

[jpaine619]

Who in the recent decade of depression saw numerous companies a) let workers go with little to no warning and no compensation

You're an idiot. Seriously. Because some companies did this all companies deserve to be treated as such? There are over a million small businesses in the United States. Don't you fucking sit there and try to convince us this is because a handful of companies collapsed or laid off employees with no warning. The vast bulk of companies do not fire employees with no warning. A handful of large businesses may have, but it's not the majority.

This has absolutely nothing to do with anything besides the fact that a large percentage of millennials are immature fuckwits who don't have a goddamn spine.

Quitting like an adult is exactly as difficult as this:

1. Pick up phone and dial your employer
2. Hey this is . I got a better job offer. I quit effective immediately.
3. Hang up phone.

That's it. You're done.

If your employer was good to you and treated you right, the honorable thing to do is give them 2 weeks notice IF POSSIBLE. If that's not possible, you give them as much notice as you can, but employers know that sometimes that's not possible.

If your employer was an asshole then you can simply walk, but you still say "I quit".

Re: ANYONE

[jpaine619]

Exactly. You handled it like an adult. There's absolutely nothing wrong with leaving a job you hate like that. You announced your intentions and you left. Nobody was left in the dark

Re:ANYONE

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

When employees are fired/let go with no notice typically receive 2 weeks pay instead.

The only time I fired someone he was escorted out immediately, and the security cleared his cube. But he got two weeks of pay, 90 days at a temporary office with access to internet, fax machine, phones and job search help. Our company recruiter assigned a head hunter to be on the premises to talk to him before being escorted out. He had 90 days to exercise vested stock options.

I know this might not be the norm. But I was lucky to work for a nice employer. When he eventually found a job and moved out of state, he personally visited me, thanked me.

Re:ANYONE

[Bobrick]

How much do you think your experience applies to most other industries? Dead-end, rank-and-file office jobs, service industry, shit-scooping industry, retail, etc. I guarantee you the ratio of crappy managers is higher there and it's usually not because they're trying to do right. Most people are broken, give them power and they'll break other people.

Re:ANYONE

[jpaine619]

You are naive. No company cares about you, they only care about money. If you provide ANYTHING to a company, you should demand payment for it.

How shitty of an employee are you? Most people (80%) are employed by small businesses. That's a statistical fact. I.e Most people aren't employed by someone they've never met. Most people work with their boss, or at least see him/her on a daily basis. i.e. they tend to build positive working relationships with their employer.

If you're going through life thinking that your employer doesn't give a fuck, maybe you're right. Maybe they don't. But have you considered the possibility that you're choosing to work for shit companies or that you're just a shit lousy employee?

What's the common element at the shit companies you've worked for? Is it you?

It sounds to me that you are like the idiot on his 6th marriage complaining about how ALL women are assholes... One common element... YOURSELF.

Re:ANYONE

[jpaine619]

You're projecting. The people who silently leave are the opposite of whiners. You are the one whining here, junior.

You're spineless. You haven't got enough balls to look another human in the face and say "I quit". You're a coward trying to act like a tough guy.

Re:ANYONE

[jpaine619]

You have the obligation to tell them you quit

Nope. "Obligation" means that I have a moral or legal duty to do something, which is entirely irrelevant when it comes to how I choose to quit a job.

No it's not. You do have a moral duty to say the words "I quit". You might not have a legal obligation, but you do have a moral duty.

Re:ANYONE

[WillAffleckUW]

How much did Amazon pay you to write that?

Re:ANYONE

[Actually, I do RTFA]

I'm not going to be an ass just cause someone else is an ass. Giving notice is a pretty reasonable thing, and I want people to think "reasonable and professional" when they think of my name.

I suppose I should make sure that the next contract I sign includes a mandatory 2-week-salary if I give notice.

Re:ANYONE

[Locke2005]

Amen. We had a manager at Intel who told one of her QA contractors Friday evening: "Don't bother coming in Monday!" When pressed, she admitted that she had known for weeks that she was getting rid of the contractor, but didn't want to tell him because she was afraid he wouldn't finish the job he was working on before leaving!

Re:ANYONE

[Actually, I do RTFA]

Well, first, it sounds like he did this during his two weeks. So, not free. Second, people there, ex-coworkers, know he did it. Which means when one of them moves on, and then needs a new coworker, they'll recommend him. Which leads to more money in an indirect way. Third, what does it cost him to explain why he was leaving and how they can fix it?

Re:ANYONE

[Austerity Empowers]

I don't like the logic of "Because a lot of people did this bad thing, I am going to do this bad thing to someone." The end result is awful.

The one catch that I can accept for ghosting is to ensure continuous health care coverage, and life insurance if you do not get it elsewhere. Most tech companies have a policy of walking you out on the day of your resignation if they have reasonable suspicion you are going to a competitor. Your paycheck and benefits may be terminated on that day.

I'm not sure that it really makes sense for otherwise healthy, young people, but it might be a reasonable concern for others. Generally it's really not hard to say "It's been a good run boss, but I'm done here.", and accept that you may get walked out that day, or your boss will expect you to work for 2 more weeks. Usually you get that 2 weeks, the boss needs it more than you do in most cases.

Re:ANYONE

[Austerity Empowers]

The exit interview is the best part!

Re:ANYONE

[Junta]

At the places I have worked, everyone laid off had 30 days notice and after that severance.

Re:ANYONE

[Junta]

I've never had a company escort me out on the day I turned in my two-week notice (at least without paying me).

I've seen two week notice get shown the door immediately, but there was bad blood between management and that person leading to that moment.

Ghosting is sort of the equivalent of showing up at the front door and finding the company is no longer there

I've walked by that happening, when I worked in a shared workspace there were employees milling about a locked door and ultmately someone manages to get a hold of someone and finds out that indeed, the jobs are gone and the company was out of money.

Or, worse yet, not telling you you're fired and hoping you'll just figure it out.

"Dom Portwood: So um, Milton has been let go?
Bob Slydell: Well just a second there, professor. We uh, we fixed the *glitch*. So he won't be receiving a paycheck anymore, so it will just work itself out naturally."

Re:ANYONE

[Junta]

Now you have. It happens all the time and the fact you don't know that, seems completely out of touch.

I haven't had that displeasure, but one time the person was trying to somehow convince me that a 50% raise would somehow result in me making less money.

Re:ANYONE

[onepoint]

I was once asked for an exit interview.
I said I get a consultant rate for my time to tell you what's wrong,
  they said what's the rate.
3800 and hour, 6 hour min. hotel's and food are on your account.
they looked at each other, walked out, spent 5 minutes deliberating
and came back in... counter was 2500 hr and 4 hours min.

I laughed and left.
they called and called for 2 weeks...
they were out of business in 18 months.

When you get older and wiser and have no fear of speaking up,
people will pay to get your views. and when you call out someone who's
the UBer whatever, be ready for the bullshit battle and just put them down.

Re:ANYONE

[onepoint]

I think it's the other way around
it's a legal issue not a moral issue

My thinking goes like this:
employer is paying for coverage, wages and other items...
if the person quits then the employer knows to stop paying
if the person ghost then the employer does not know what to do.

I look forward to my new startup called "ghost catchers" where
we collect the employers credits for a fee and put the employee
into payback hell.

Re:ANYONE

[jpaine619]

I can't speak to any jurisdiction but my own, but in CA there is absolutely no legal obligation. In fact, there are serious legal ramifications if the employer retaliates in any way.

Employers are only obligated to pay for the days you actually work... So if you don't show up... But yeah, civilized people say "I quit".

Re:ANYONE

[Actually, I do RTFA]

Was this in your two-week period after you announced you quit? Or after you were gone? Cause, I can see quitting on the spot and getting 10k to hand off my projects, but that seems incredibly dickish. On the other hand, if they called you after a month...

Re:ANYONE

[phantomfive]

I have also met a few cynical shitheads who contribute nothing

There are two types of people at work: those who get things done, and those who don't. Find the ones who do, and be like them.

Re:ANYONE

[Enigma2175]

Most people (80%) are employed by small businesses. That's a statistical fact.

Are you just making up numbers? Just calling it a fact doesn't make it a fact. The Small Business Administration says that small businesses represent 49.2% of employment and 42.9% of payrolls. Do you have a source for your 80% number? It seems like the SBA would have pretty good statistics on something like that.

Re:ANYONE

[onepoint]

I gave 3 month notice.
I had a name at the time, and a reputation. a handshake deal was 99% of the time ok, and then just hand to the attorneys to look over to make sure it was honored and correctly understood.

Re:ANYONE

[jpaine619]

Whoops. You got me.. 80% of businesses are small.. My bad..

Re:ANYONE

[onepoint]

Not being dickish... but can you cite something, I would think that this is covered somewhere and just forgotten.
what happens if no one notices for a full pay-cycle? would that be theft?

weird that the topic of ghosting ( I think it would be called abandonment ) is not covered in CA employment statues.

my idea get's more interesting by the minute

Re: ANYONE

[astrofurter]

In Soviet America, rights sign you away!

Re:ANYONE

[Actually, I do RTFA]

If you gave them three month notice, how did you justify charging them $10k for an exit interview? Did they not ask for those three months?

Re:ANYONE

[jpaine619]

https://www.worklawyers.com/two-weeks-notice-requirements-california/

First paragraph. :)

Re: ANYONE

[cerberusss]

Must've felt good. You have a job lined up yet, or was it really on an impulse (fine by me, if you have some money stashed)?

Re:ANYONE

[cerberusss]

I like your style :)

Re:ANYONE

[Waccoon]

More like, they all know what the problems are, but their hands are tied because Home Office. The middle managers may want to do something, but they have bosses, too, and they know all too well they are cogs in the machine, so they just succumb to policy, even if they know it's wrong.

After spending months telling multiple bosses what the problems are, an exit interview with an RH rep isn't going to fix anything. I still showed up to work and gave them 3 weeks notice, but I was all done trying to explain why I was leaving.

Perhaps at smaller companies Hanlon's razor still applies, but I lost my faith in Fortune 500-esqe companies a long time ago.

Re:ANYONE

[thegarbz]

a) let workers go with little to no warning and no compensation

Probably no one since it's illegal in most civilised countries. Oh wait ... America doesn't have employment protection laws.

b) witnessed the extremely common scenario where an employee informs their employer they are taking a new job, gives their two weeks notice, and are immediately escorted out the building and left with no job for two weeks.

You still have a job for 2 weeks. That's what 2 weeks notice is about. Just because you don't go to your desk and do something there doesn't mean you are not on the books being paid for those 2 weeks.

Re:ANYONE

[thegarbz]

(at least without paying me).

Well yes, because if they didn't that would be breach of contract. That's the whole purpose of the 2 week notice. It has nothing to do with you being allowed to come to work for 2 weeks, but just because you're not there doesn't mean you're not working and being paid for work.

Getting shown the door is a practice commonly dependent on secrecy and risk. As per policy we show all employees in certain departments the door immediately and this is based on past experience, the employees are the service employees (sabotage), planning employees (poor performance can screw us there), and procurement employees (fraud / embezzlement)

Re:ANYONE

[thegarbz]

No company cares about you

A company is some arbitrary construct. Ultimately though they are run by people, and yes people ultimately still care. If no people care about you that says more about you than anything else.

Re: ANYONE

[DaMattster]

You're a fucking asshole corporate shill.

Re: ANYONE

[sound vision]

It's actually just passive, there is no aggression. Passive-agressive would be if you continued showing up, collecting a check, but burying the problems and not doing any actual work.

If you want to turn it into a generational thing - When I was younger and working service jobs with teenagers I'd see this every day. Now I primarily work with people 40-50+ and I see mostly the same - just with a bigger sense of entitlement and a little more pretension. (And my insurance premiums are way higher in this pool with all the geriatric care)

Re:ANYONE

[sabt-pestnu]

It is telling that you only felt comfortable distributing that document when you were quitting.

Why did you not do so before, presenting it as a "I feel strongly enough about these items that unless (some) action is taken I will resign"?

Re: ANYONE

[edris90]

An exit interview is silly, because the employee is leaving. They are cutting ties and as such have nothing to gain by such a thing. Why would you help a company that valued you so little, that when you went to leave, they didn't start a bidding war to retain you.

Re:ANYONE

[farble1670]

Non sequitur much?

If you can't make a connection between a low-paying job, and going around life with a "you can't make me do that" and "I don't have to do that" and "I'm not contracted for that" attitude, I feel sorry for you.

It's clear simply from the way you speak about employment that you are dissatisfied. Folks that I actually like their employment, employer and colleagues aren't put off by the idea of helping them, even if they didn't sign a contract to do it.

There's also this little proverb that says something about fire and bridges. Maybe you are right though, it's better to leave your employment having everyone think you are an ass than to spend 10 minutes talking.

Re:ANYONE

[sabt-pestnu]

For your consideration: You and your boss are likely to be on good terms. Your boss is likely to be literate in the details of your position. Your boss's boss is less likely to be so. The larger the company, the deeper the hierarchy. At some point, you end up with someone who neither knows nor cares about technical aspects, only the budget. All it takes is for the Peter principle to break one link in that chain to disconnect the work from the leaders, and make "the company" not give a fuck.

And yes, 20% of us work for large or huge companies, where the "fucks" jar has been mislaid due simply to scaling. More of us work for smaller companies where the jar has been mislaid for other reasons (incompetence, desperation, etc.)

Re: ANYONE

[edris90]

Morals are a product of subjective personal values. A very strong form of, this is what I like, If youur personally values do not include the need to inform, then there is no moral duty.

Re: ANYONE

[edris90]

If your employer implement s profit sharing, they might be honest. If they don't then they are exploiting you, using familiarity to cloak their Ill gotten gains as legitimate

Re: ANYONE

[edris90]

Yeah it does. Notice to Resign, results in immediate termination. Because they know you can't afford time to show up to a lawsuit, and if they payed you well enough to cover your bills and afford a lawyer, you wouldn't be quitting.

Re: ANYONE

[onepoint]

that's ok.

your views are like any other's.
but business is always business.

good luck,
enjoy being held accountable
and may you find satisfaction at whatever it is you enjoy doing.

Re:ANYONE

[onepoint]

Thank you

Re:ANYONE

[onepoint]

read the entire thing,
does not cover the concept of ghosting or "leaving without saying goodbye"

so I got to think my idea is still justifiable from a business standpoint.
Thank you again.

Re: ANYONE

[thegarbz]

Your entire post is complete nonsense.

Firstly immediate termination is not the norm.
Secondly you can lawyer up
Thirdly when making up some bullshit reason why you won't lawyer up you changed from termination to resignation and completely changed the dynamics of who is doing what.

Take your ADHD medication before posting next time.

Re:ANYONE

[onepoint]

that's part of the key, they just were not on top of stuff.

also I asked for 20K+ they countered at 10K

How to justify anything is simple, take your earnings rate ( commission plus salary plus benefit plus insurance = base line. then take base line add 33% because consultant's get to ask for more money and that's how I got my number )

Re:ANYONE

[Actually, I do RTFA]

I'm not trying to figure out how you justify being worth 10k. I'm trying to figure out why you charged them anything beyond your salary if you gave them 3 months notice. Like, I would feel if I gave 2 weeks notice that an exit interview was a reasonable task to assign me in the 80 remaining hours we had on my previously negotiated salary.

On the other hand, if they called up after two months and wanted help, I can see calculating a rate.

Re:ANYONE

[onepoint]

Simple,
because you don't know me you are not aware of my shut up rule..
works like this, once the deal is dead, I shut up and walk away.
So, I did what I normally had to do, and did not accept anymore
work that would extend my hours beyond, did my productive 8
everyday. I love Scotty time quoting so that helped a lot.

It's not like you can force me to answer anything not within
my employment scope and please send legal down, because
if one thing I have learned is, "don't sign anything" and "the less
you say, the more they have to dig to hang you"

I was the so called guy to talk to, and upon being notified, I told
everyone that they could not come to me for advice, simple. even
when they asked who should they promote, I said money for answer.
the CEO was a drinking buddy at a bar, I told him that we could no longer
talk business, but he was welcomed to drink and laugh. we remained
drinking buddies till I moved out of state.

it's like dating, once it's over, you never look back, and don't think
about it anymore... go out and find a new replacement.

Re:ANYONE

[mjwx]

Who in the recent decade of depression saw numerous companies a) let workers go with little to no warning and no compensation or b) witnessed the extremely common scenario where an employee informs their employer they are taking a new job, gives their two weeks notice, and are immediately escorted out the building and left with no job for two weeks.

Companies keep trying to pull shit on employees. I don't think these greedy CEO's realize that there are consequences for their policies. If employers fail to respect 2 weeks notice, than they cannot expect their employees to do so. If corporations find every loophole and means to pay their employees less regardless of the effect on their employees. Than employers can't complain when those same folks keep jumping jobs for more money - if YOU make it ALL about money, than expect it to be all about MONEY.

This means your industrial relations laws are broken. Where I live it would be illegal to fire an employee who has just resigned, in fact even if a company fires them for legitimate reasons and escorts them from the building they are still owed a paid notice period (I.E. if an employer stipulates I have to give 4 weeks notice when resigning, that is how much time I am owed if they dismiss me).

Re:ANYONE

[jpaine619]

I did read it.

Generally, California employees are not required by law to give any advance notice to their employer before they quit their job..

I know people who quit a job by simply not showing up. I've also known people who were fired for not showing up to a job.... I suppose from the viewpoint of the employer it doesn't really matter. You can't be compelled to show up at your job, so if you don't show up, you'd be fired anyhow..

Re:ANYONE

[jpaine619]

I'll also add that I have 30+ years in California's employment market.. I can speak from the personal "authority" of experience. You can't get into any trouble by "ghosting". It's a shitty thing to do and borders on immoral (from my point of view) without serious justification..

Re: ANYONE

[jpaine619]

Sorry, I don't engage in debate with communists.

Re: ANYONE

[jpaine619]

Bullcrap. Morals are more than that. Morals are also set by the community. Morals are a manifestation of good/evil or right/wrong. But whatever you've got to tell yourself to make up for a lack of a spine.....

Re:ANYONE

[jpaine619]

I'll have to add a correction, as I was recently corrected.. I was in error when I said 80% of people are employed by small business. That was incorrect. 80% of businesses are small businesses, but apparently slightly over half of Americans (I don't have info on other countries) are employed by big business (500+ employees). I think the percentage was 52% or 53%. It's fairly close to a 50/50 split, but does tip in the favor of large business being the dominant employer.

Re: ANYONE

[reanjr]

I'm sorry all of your coworkers wish you were dead. Maybe you should work on that.

Re:ANYONE

[onepoint]

Sorry, my error in communicating properly,
I meant to write that I read the entire thing.
but it seems that while not having to give advance notice,
they must tell someone that they quit.

at least that's the concept that I got.

Now a simple dispute:
someone "ghost" on Monday, payroll is Wednesday ( direct deposit morning hit ).
who owes who for Monday and maybe Tuesday
and let's just make this even more fun,
You get hit by a car on Tuseday, who get's the health care bill ( because in theory, you have 2 health care policies in place )

I keep on seeing an open liability here for the company, because I don't know if "ghost" is my resource or someone else
I can't find the proof that you can just walk off the job and not tell someone up the chain or human resources.
Just seems wrong.

but hey, business opportunity seems to be present

Re: ANYONE

[edris90]

Lawyers don't work for free man and unless you are of the spoiled Elite, there is nothing to pay the bills in between jobs. It's a shame you don't recognize the privileged position you are in and the luck that went into what you've achieved. You don't even appreciate the extra advantage that you have been given. You probably think that you made it happen all on your own. Only Hermits living outside of society ,achieve anything on their own.

Re: ANYONE

[edris90]

Community Values are just another form of mob mentality unless you created that Community or had a very real opportunity to destroy the values of that Community then the existence of those values are not your responsibility. People are only responsible for their own creations

Re: ANYONE

[edris90]

Because everyone said so does not make things true. Otherwise the planet would have become flat in response to people's shared belief, leaving nothing to discover in the terms of spherical nature. Shared belief does not make a truth.

Re: ANYONE

[edris90]

Morality is a an idea. Nothing more nothing less.

Re: ANYONE

[jpaine619]

Morality is a an idea. Nothing more nothing less.

No. It's demonstrably more than that. I'm not claiming any religious justification for it.. But morals and right/wrong are more than ideas... I'm not a philosopher so it's hard to explain.. and this isn't probably the best example or analogy, but maybe it'll at least clarify how I view it..

It's like Karma.. I believe in Karma.. Not because of God or Buddah or whatever, but a simple truth is that if you are an asshole, pretty soon non-assholes aren't going to want to be around you.. Your inner circle will devolve to just assholes.. Assholes are assholes.. Assholes tend to treat each other poorly.. That's why they're assholes..

Good people tend to treat each other well. They generally don't tolerate assholes for long.. Eventually your inner circle is other good people.. Good people don't fuck each other over.. i.e. they aren't assholes to one another.

If you make a habit of screwing over your friends/neighbors/coworkers, you're an asshole.. Eventually only assholes will associate with you and, sooner or later, one will fuck you over... Karma!

Morals have been observed in the other higher primates (Chimps, Orangutans, etc). Give two Chimps the same task but pay one with more pieces of fruit and they know they're getting screwed. They get angry.... Chimps even demand fairness from each other. Not just from humans..

Fairness is not a human construction.. It's a natural phenomenon.

https://www.livescience.com/26...

Re:ANYONE

[jpaine619]

Now a simple dispute: someone "ghost" on Monday, payroll is Wednesday ( direct deposit morning hit ). who owes who for Monday and maybe Tuesday

Well, you're getting pretty complicated and I'm not an employment expert.. I can only recite anecdotes.. I have been an employer in the past, so all I can say is how I'd handle your scenario..

California (and Federal) law have terms.. I don't remember the legal latin term for it, but basically your employer is under no obligation to pay you for time not spent working. Generally speaking, if one is paid on Wednesday, it's does not include the two preceding days.. There's not enough time to do the paperwork, get the taxes withheld, and cut checks (or direct deposit).

I'm not claiming this is universal, but everywhere I have ever worked (AT&T included) the paycheck that you get on Friday is for the preceding two weeks. Pay for the current week is not included.. It'll be on the NEXT paycheck.

So, if I had an employee not show up on Monday and/or Tuesday.. no matter.. He's not getting paid for those days.. And even if you're in a construction job (they typically pay each week) you still don't cut a check for time not worked... Being an employer, by definition, involves figuring out what you owe someone and paying them the proper and legal amount..

Under CA law, if you quit your job, the employer may legally pay you on the next scheduled payday.. If you are fired he/she must cut you a check (I think the law gives 2 hours) right then. So... I have never been in any situation where an employer didn't know what they owed you. You work or you don't...

Re:ANYONE

[onepoint]

Never been in that situation before so no wonder I was confused. my lack
of experience within that life shows. I've never been in a situation
since 1985 where I did not get paid on, full up to payday. it's always one of
my lucky stances and I've paid the cycle out to. I owned a few firms, did the
same thing I believed in IE: show that you are paid up to the date of the check
1-15 on the 15th and 16 to end of month with the date being the end of the month.

When I was on wall street, I ran a portfolio, open the books and traded started
on Sunday 7pm, and went to zero open positions and closed books at 4:00pm

Someone checked the the P/L statement against my P/L numbers. Always matched
and I had a check cut. Sunday at 7PM there had to be a check at my desk otherwise
I would not trade. More than once someone was found by 2 am and I was notified
and went to work. no checkie not workie and I was dead serious about it.

markets were very inefficient in those days

to this day my week starts on sunday and ends saturday, just seems right to me.
but thank's for the education, my job concept seems to be not viable based on
what the normal payroll system is. Oh well... another time to make a profitable
idea. Good speaking with you.

Re: ANYONE

[edris90]

Whats Fair is arelatuve to perspective. By any objective measure the world is not fair and never will be. Because fairness is highly dependent subjective values. Desired checked by perceived threats. after all Whoever has more is the biggest Target. In a fair world, the desk sitters die and those who create food and shelter would thrive. course I have a different definition of fair than you do cuz it's a very subjective concept

Re: ANYONE

[edris90]

Also if everyone you associate with subscribes to a similar behavior and mindset, who created a small Society the matches your values and that's your behavior within it is moral relative to The Company You Keep because it matches Baseline behavior of the culture you are subscribing to. If a bunch of assholes get together they are assholes anymore. they are the new Norm and the culture they have created together by agreeing to a standard set of expectancies or morals. Morals are arbitrary. People might not be able to help create morals. But what direction those morals take are only limited by the imagination of the individual subscribing to them

Re: ANYONE

[edris90]

Society is not the standard by which advantage is measured. Human values and morals are a footnote in the history of the universe,not a centrally authoritative standard by which to compare the rest of the of existence.

Re: ANYONE

[edris90]

Illusion requires belief to maintain itself. Real things maintain themselves independent of belief. So if morals are so real, they can maintain their own existence and don't need me to help them

Re: ANYONE

[edris90]

Your mother practice communism in the home, when they continue to raise you even though you were just meet you at that point upon the familes finances. Profit sharing isn't giving away free money. Its Honest accounting and paying people what their labor is actually worth. Basically you only talk to people who rip people off and indirectly still the efforts of their labors, through maneuvering and economic pressuring

Re: ANYONE

[edris90]

Correction, even though you were just dead weight to the family, your parents practiced communism and you are an infant. Prioritizing the needs of the community ( a family unit is a micro-community) over the pleasures and desires of the individuals with the most Financial income.

Re: ANYONE

[jpaine619]

Bullshit, you commie. Profit sharing is fine if you are also going to have LOSS sharing. When the company has a bad quarter are you going to pony up to cover the losses? Of course you aren't.. Typical liberals.. Wants everything for free with no requirement to contribute.. Fuck off.

Re: ANYONE

[jpaine619]

Correction, even though you were just dead weight to the family, your parents practiced communism and you are an infant. Prioritizing the needs of the community ( a family unit is a micro-community) over the pleasures and desires of the individuals with the most Financial income.

You're on drugs. My parents had me due to some instinct to continue their genetic line. I wasn't consulted. They knew the facts and chose to act. When people have children it is a selfish act. I do not mean that negatively, just factually. It can't be anything but a selfish act since the other party is not yet here to be consulted.

A family unit is not a micro-community. It is a FAMILY. The family is the only genetic/instinctual community we have. Don't conflate it with other political divisions. All of human history recognizes the supremacy of the family unit. In the western world, for example, generally a wife cannot be compelled to testify against a husband. Parents can make choices for their children that fall outside of the accepted practices (refusal to vaccinate for example).. So take your "collectivism" and piss off.

Re: ANYONE

[edris90]

Capitalistic Americans want people to cooperate with the laws and culture that allow to hold on to their gains , for free. even though your entire way of life is dependent upon our Collective cooperation. so those holding Capital are the freeloaders not compensating people for the the sacrifices in autonomy and Independence others make to provide an environment in which capitalism can thrive. your ability to maintain the philosophy that things can be owns is completely dependent upon the your community willingness to support that view. they don't have to support that view .they have within their inborn rights as a conscious creature to oppose or ignore anything they don't agree with. Your entire philosophy only works because of other people's Collective complacency. But you want all that cooperation for free. Don't think you have to pay people at all for providing a basis for you to be successful. Who's the freeloader now?

Re: ANYONE

[edris90]

Only a hermit living isolated, handling everything involved in their lives on their own, naking everything they need themselves, can truly lay singular to their successes in life. Everything in a society is the result of shared efforts when you account for everything.

Re: ANYONE

[edris90]

You just said. Family is not a micro-community. And in the same thing said that family is a community. Communism applies to community. It is the practice of valuing in the community over the individual. True principles scale. Faulty principals do not scale. Communism is is the concept of family applied without hypocrisy. As every member of human species is part of one large family geneticly

Re: ANYONE

[edris90]

Also there are more than enough cases of people abandoning babies in dumpsters to show there it is a ever present choice to abandon your child or not. You may have reasons why you don't choose to do that, that demonstrates that your parents did not have to maintain you after you were conceived. It was a selfless act to to keep you alive. their lives would have been a thousand times easier without you. It is by blind luck that you did not end up with parents who left you in a dumpster to die

Re: ANYONE

[jpaine619]

No, it's not. That is the great lie of the Communists. You debase everyone, you belittle everyone, you depreciate EVERYONE. You reduce a man's success to "the community". You stand up and declare that "Nobody is responsible for their own gains. Everyone is riding on the backs of everyone else". And it is a FUCKING LIE.

People gather in groups for MUTUAL benefit, sure. That's not in debate. But honorable people gather in those groups for quid-pro-quo. Each is expected to pull his own weight, contribute a bit, and in return the contribution will be returned in some fashion. But for the groups to work you cannot have members who are a drain.

You declare the owner of a business to be exploiting the workers.. Another lie. All workers are there voluntarily. None were forced. If they aren't happy with the wages offered they have two choices; seek employment elsewhere or start their own business and employ themselves.

Your declaration that the group is responsible for the success of the a business is another great lie. When a company fails the creditors can't go after the employees. They can only go after the owner. The owner may lose everything. His house, his savings, etc.. When a company has a bad year and takes a loss, the owners don't show up and ask the employees to chip in. An owner may ask the employees to take reduced wages NOW to keep the company solvent, but generally once the company is back on firm footing the wages are repaid WITH INTEREST. In some cases the wages may have been too high in the first place and the reduction may be permanent or semi-permanent, but once again the employee can either seek employment elsewhere or start their own business.

The company may attempt to stay afloat by taking out a loan or selling stock. In small communities this money generally comes from the community itself. Workers who have saved money in the bank are compensated with interest payments, from the bank, when this money is loaned out. In this scenario the loan could be made to the very same company they are working at. Or, the workers may buy stock in the company they are working at. They trade money NOW for interest payments LATER. That interest is ALWAYS compensation for risk. The greater the risk the greater the interest that is demanded.

I'm not going to sit here and teach you economics, but your communist model has failed 100% of the time. There is not a single communist country that is successful. China is not communist. China is fascist (state run business) or a capitalistic oligarchy. It's not perfectly clear which it is. I suspect it is a bastardization of both.

Communism, as implemented, has resulted in hundreds of millions of deaths. Capitalism has it's share of deaths too, but it's less.

I'm not going to declare that Capitalism is the best system, there might be a better one waiting to be created. But, it is the best system so far. CAPITALISM, not communism, is directly responsible for increasing the wealth of the greatest percentage of people in human history. Prior to capitalism we had feudalism and in that system 98% of the population was POOR. Only the nobility had a decent standard of living.

I don't know the stats, offhand, for other countries, but in the United States the poverty rate is around 12.9%-13.9%. That number could be better, but in the context of history that is an AMAZING SUCCESS. In less than 250 years we have managed to reduce poverty/subsistence living from 98% to only 14%.

All of the world's life saving and life extending pharmaceuticals have been invented in capitalistic societies. Why is this? If communism and collectivism is so good, how come you fuck faces don't invent anything? I'll answer that for you. Without capitalism you don't have the resources or the rewards to invent at the same level.

When you look at the world's poorest countries, they aren't capitalist. They're either communist or dictatorships. I'd argue that the typical dictatorship is very close to Feudalism. So no great surprise there...

Re: ANYONE

[edris90]

All of your statements are dependent upon an artificial state of existence maintained by the masses. You put whatever system happens to be in place when you are born as the center of the world. The world is bigger than people and the things they create. Nuss the ideas and Creations of people are footnotes rather than the center of things. Circular justification is bullshit you can't justify a society by its own standards. You can't make justify a relative course of action as a universal base if it's still relies people to believe in it. People are not the center of the world. Duster ideas do not retroactively Define existence. People's ideas and social structures Define shared illusion. But since it requires people to believe in it to function that way then it is still shared illusion and not "real" things maintain themselves independent of belief or agreement of people. as far as medical advances all the technology in the world may as well just be a story if not casually accessible to the common man.

Re: ANYONE

[edris90]

to make someone off their artificially inflated pedestal and put them in a place of honor alongside everyone else is not a debasement. just a call for honesty

Re: ANYONE

[edris90]

Also they're arguably many worse things than dying that are prevalent in a capitalistic Society. Constance you could be forced to a pattern that is contrary to your nature, having your life commandeer to represent someone else's will. on that since you never lived a life but merely were used as an extension of someone else's. You can be leveraged situationally and psychologically into doing things you for the majority. Anybody who has studied business has had to study statistics and the the concepts of how to form other people's decisions for them and make them think they're their own idea so as to self motivate them to your will. Free Will is an illusion. Our entire successful advertising Market has demonstrated that to be so beyond a shadow of a doubt. Social reforms and programs are all based on those very real ineffective concepts of mob mentality and herd mechanics of humans. We may be a specialized form of animals but we are still animals. And as such still controlled by our underlying primitive compulsions. When you tap into those primitive compulsions without people being consciously aware you steer them like Puppet Masters.

Re: ANYONE

[edris90]

Let's make faces do invent everything and then capitalist come along and take credit. Take Thomas Edison for example. alien businessman leverage the shit out of laws in order to take credit for the inventions of people who came to him because he was offering cooperation in the name of science. Stole their inventions. took credit for them and then used reputation built from that to fend off buy inventors to receive credit for their inventions. A spor fuckfaces invent everything. Lazy capitalists exploit in bastardize all our lovely creations. We create things so that all may have access. Capitalism create artificial scarcity and limits to leverage people into being exploited for a pittance out of desperation and or broken trust

Re: ANYONE

[jpaine619]

Your philosophy is evil. People are the center of the universe, in a sense. When you treat the individual as the most important part of a society there is far less ability to justify doing evil to him. An individual is rewarded for his successes and punished (in a sense) for his failures and his crimes.

Your philosophy makes the individual just another cog in the machine. Communism/Socialism isn't just a different way of doing things. It is immoral and EVIL. You strip the individual of his identity and declare him to be a component of the collective. You want to reduce man to the level of the ant. You wish to raise those in power to the level of the Queen ant. She'll guide and direct the hive.. The rest are disposable.

I REJECT your philosophy and will fight it. Your philosophy is the seizure of another man's labor because "He's privileged that he has the ability to work.. There's other people who can't work.. They must be taken care of, by all means necessary"

FUCK YOU AND YOUR EVIL PHILOSOPHY

Re: ANYONE

[jpaine619]

Are you completely fucking insane? Have you even been to a grocery store in the western (capitalistic) world? It is a cornucopia of abundance... There are HUNDREDS of varieties of bread. Every possible variation of bread is made available.. Wheat, white, stone ground, 7 grain, Hawaiian, Sour Dough, etc etc etc etc etc.. Hundreds of types of water, meat... I could go on and on and on.

You ever see a grocery store in a communist/socialist country? Bare shelves a lot of the time.... At most 1 or two choices per product... Starvation on a mass scale... North Korea, USSR, China (perhaps as many as 100 million starved during the great leap forward).

Your problem is you have no spine. You reject the ability to take charge of your own destiny. You blame everyone and everything else for your position or lot in life. Your way is the way of the coward. All of your statements point to "Everyone is out to get me".

I will have no further debate with you. You are not rational. You have the mind of a child.

Re: ANYONE

[edris90]

Access to luxery does not make for Independent, kinder, more self sacraficing people. Tends to have the opposite effect.

Re: ANYONE

[jpaine619]

Awesome retort.. If you can't be bothered why did you hit reply? I destroyed your argument and that's your come back?

Re: ANYONE

[edris90]

Yep because all the the rise buildings and luxuries and the world ARe malignant and counter productive if they encourage people to be less satisfied and at peace with each other. 20 people getting along happily are worth more than 2000 miserable desperate people. Either provide for all or kill the extra. but maintaining High populations just to maintain desperation is inhumane to the point of monstrosity.

Re: ANYONE

[edris90]

And you didn't destroy my argument lets you did was say a bunch of words the pandered to your own ego and made yourself feel great. But you have to changed nothing external to yourself. Other than using up some data on slashdot server. You are one of those people who think they're right aren't you? They Always have hardest time trying out different ways to think and experimenting through application of alternative thinking,, they think they know everything already, so why bother to try something different just to see what happens.

Re: ANYONE

[edris90]

You may be better at acquiring stuff. But I am better at being happy independent of my situation. I would argue I have the more valuable situation

Back in the 1990s...

[Anonymous Coward]

Back in the 1990s, if you didn't switch employers every two or so years, you were considered someone who wasn't willing to "grow".
After the dot.bomb crash, you were a job hopper.
I never screwed over an employer - a couple screwed me over, though. But sticking to the high ground pays off. Future employers will realize they were dicks to you - some were ALSO screwed over - RIGHT fellow IBM'ers?!

Follow the Golden Rule as Confucius wrote over 3,000 years ago, and it'll work out in the end.
Yeah, there are some assholes out there who think you should sell your soul to your employer; but most? Nope.
Give two weeks notice - if it's that horrible that you have to leave immediately, consult a labor attorney and then listen to his advice.

Been through this shit and many asshole employers (And mostly great ones), and let me tell you, we workers are ALWAYS at a disadvantage.

NOPE

[PortHaven]

Most larger companies simply offer that the individual was employed and nothing more. Too much legal potential for libel lawsuits if they say much more....

And all they have to do is say, well, I saw them repeatedly terminate employees the same day they gave notice.

Re:I witnessed this

[TWX]

You witnessed someone being done a favor, at the expense of your department's budget, put on the books without any expectation to show up, in a job that's very difficult to define personal employee benchmarks/metrics for. That's not the same as ghosting.

Whom in upper management was this person related to, having sexual intercourse with, or blackmailing? Because I can't think of another reason why this person would be placed on the payroll for a job that they're not doing unless they somehow had leverage over someone with the power to make it happen.

Sooooo

[Anonymous Coward]

So if there is this huge demand for labor...... why are we still waiting for wages to go up?

Even if there are no consequences

[OrangeTide]

There is a certain level of self-respect in maintaining professional behavior.

And miss out on cake?

[martinX]

Why leave like that? You miss out on cake, and sincere heartfelt wishes from your fellow employees, as well as earnest conversations about “we must catch up some time soon”.

Re:And miss out on cake?

[sconeu]

Ummm.... excuse me, but I did not receive a slice of birthday cake...

I can't say I'm upset

[Miles_O'Toole]

So the "gig economy" isn't just a one way street. Good. There are some good employers out there, but there are a lot more who have been mercilessly screwing over their employees for years. If some of them get a little of their own medicine back, I'm all for it. I'm lucky. My current employer is amazing, and I'd bend over backward to help them out. A place where I worked earlier in my career, though, was a different story...vile people running a crooked operation. If I heard their head of HR had cancer, I'd send him a "Hope You Die Screaming" card.

Oh for Fucks sakes

[rsilvergun]

people have been quitting jobs without notice forever. This is hardly anything new. Meanwhile real wages are barely climbing despite almost daily record stock numbers (save the occasional drop because they're skittish over a trade war brewing).

This means folks are leaving jobs so crappy they want to burn their bridges. But that doesn't necessarily mean they're going off to greener pastures.

Re:Oh for Fucks sakes

[tippen]

Quitting a job with no notice is different than ghosting. Ghosting is where they don't bother to quit, they just stop coming to work.

Re:ANYONE - what happened to humanity?

[al0ha]

Much of this all comes down to two basic problems, lack of humanity and lack of respect; on both sides. It is a vicious circle that will never end unless everyone, from CEOs down, regain empathy and humanity for all persons. Yeah - I'm a dreamer, just IMAGINE.

All kinds of stories

[RobinH]

Depending on where you work, you hear all kinds of stories. Had someone go out for break on their 2nd or 3rd day, get in their car and leave, and we never heard from them again. Apparently right before they left they told their co-worker, "Yeah, I'm just not feeling it here." Lots of people accept the offer and don't show up on their first day. The good ones call and explain they got a better off somewhere else, which is completely reasonable to me. There are lots of reasons out of our control why another job might be a better fit for someone, especially location. Not showing up is just completely unprofessional.

Goose, meet gander.

[fahrbot-bot]

While not exactly the same thing, I've had in-person interviews with companies where they later simply changed my status to "not selected" on my application without giving/sending me any other notification -- no phone call or email. I only found out when I logged into my account on their career site. I can see this when one has simply submitted an application and nothing else has happened, but I actually met and talked to people, usually several, in person, at their office. How hard is it to send an email, even an automated one?

With respect to this thread, sack up and tell your employer you're leaving. It's called, "being professional".

In addition, we need more civility in the World, especially now, not less.

Thats illegal

[ghoul]

Companies cannot collude to hold down wages. Apple and Google had to pay a multimillion dollar settlement because they were colluding.
He should have sued.

Re:Thats illegal

[tippen]

That's not colluding to hold down wages. That's not hiring someone that has demonstrated that they are unprofessional and unethical.

Re:Thats illegal

[ghoul]

Its the same. Someone who gets competing offers can get the companies to go up to what they actually can bear to pay for the position. If emplyers collude to not hire such folks they are artificially holding the wages down. Illegal as ruled by many courts

Professionalism matters

[ErichTheRed]

I fully admit I'm old school at 43 years old. I'm not a hipster full stack developer stroking my goatee and downing another Red Bull so I can spend 7 more hours debugging JavaScript or Go or whatever my startup's phone app back end is running. But one thing I have experienced is cyclical labor markets. Being a professional may be looked down on today, but I think this is what allows people to survive in the down-swings of these cycles. 1998-2000 was almost exactly like this in the tech world...the only difference is the buzzwords and a lower number of pump and dump IPOs. Back them, if you could write HTML or do basic sysadmin work, you were hopping jobs every 6 months for 20% pay increases, just like web devs and cloud admins are now. You can't swing a dead cat without hitting a high paying job if you have certain skills in certain markets.

I have a feeling in the next 2 years we're going to experience another "interesting time"...maybe not as painful as 2000 or 2008, but bad for IT and developers. The free food, hip work environments and high compensation are going to evaporate and it will instantly become a buyers' market again. Anyone pulling this ghosting stuff, or doing the "Talk with my agent, I know Kubernetes!" rockstar prima donna thing is going to be remembered and not in a good way.

I know a lot of tech people are saying something like, "Good, sweet revenge for the crap companies pull" and I agree somewhat. But, do we really want to pull the two sides even further apart by cementing the idea that all IT people are a bunch of flaky, unprofessional ill-tempered nerds? Because if we do, I know several Indian consulting firms with thousands of perfectly polite needful-doers who are selling executives on that very premise.

My preferred solution? Ghost the crappy companies and work the system from within good environments. There are some out there. It's the only way to fix labor/management relations long term and bring it back to the time where companies actually wanted to keep employees.

Re: At will employment

[ErichTheRed]

> You think that shit does not get around?

It's very easy for a young employee to think that the industry is just an endless field of hot-swappable engineers and developers. Especially in certain markets (SF, Seattle, etc.) I hear there are thousands of nearly-identical openings. Never forget that it's very possible for that list of thousands to go down to a couple hundred, right after a massive tech company dumps 50,000 engineers onto the street in one shot (HP/HPE/CSC is a perfect example, or the mass firings at Microsoft.)

People talk. The industry is smaller than you think. If you're in any sort of specialty that makes you less hot-swappable, the talent pool and list of employers gets smaller. Companies have no-hire lists and acting like a jerk either on your way in or out is a good way to get on them.

Never did this

[Cro Magnon]

I think if I felt bad enough about a company that I didn't mind burning bridges, I'd want the satisfaction of telling my boss in-person, "Take this job and shove it".

Multiple posts have said it already but

[nehumanuscrede]

I have no sympathy for the Companies here.

Companies rarely have any respect for their workforce, so I'm curious why they demand and / or expect it from their employees ?
It's not like they're going to give you much ( if any ) notice of being laid off, fired, terminated, whatever.

Hell, in some cases, they won't even let you collect your things from your desk. They box it all up and mail it to you.

If they want respect, they should start by giving some.

Re:I witnessed this

[Durrik]

This happens a lot.

We had a paid intern at work (I don't know how much but it sounded like north of $70k per year). He never showed up, never did any work. Found out he was the son of a VP in another department, and HR rules said he couldn't be in VP's department, so we paid it out of our budget. Fortunately we don't have this paid intern anymore and we can actually use the money for people who actually do work.

Re:References?

[tippen]

What people never seem to realize is that reference checks are rarely just the ones the candidate provides on their resume.

The hiring manager looks on LinkedIn and, more often than not, finds someone that they know (directly or indirectly) that worked with the candidate. Those are the reference checks that tell the real story.

Government interviews for a job already spoken for

[FeelGood314]

I'm surprised no one complained about interviewing for government jobs where they already know who they want to hire but are going through the motion to follow show it was a competitive process.

Quitting on the day the contract ended

[FeelGood314]

I had a job where we had a voluntary salary reduction of 20% and got one day a week off for 6 months. In Canada, a company has to offer you a choice to accept such a cut and give you severance if you don't. If you don't have a job to go to you have no real choice but to accept the cut but immediately started looking for a new job. I waited till the end of the 6 months for my current company to communicate what they intended to do with the 20% cut. This time if they repeated the 20% offer I was taking the severance. The day the 6 month reduction finished came and went and the company didn't say anything. I wasn't going to say anything and weaken my position with respect to the severance. I wanted a written offer for the extension of the 20% reduction that I could refuse. In the end time ran out. I was starting the new job on the Monday and it was Friday afternoon when I quit.

New Reason: Risk Aversion

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me propose a different reason people might be doing this: risk aversion. If something happens and they suddenly regret starting the new job, if they haven't notified their previous employee there's a chance they could talk their way into keeping their old job. Perhaps they were gravely ill and bed ridden for the past week...

Re:References?

[tippen]

No, but the people you screwed / worked with are, so the bridges you burn are still just a short hop away.

Can companies mess them in W2?

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

Let us say the ghosted employees are posted to a special list. And there is a bug in payroll software that reports 2 million dollars as salary to IRS. The company discovers the bug on April 13th and issues a corrected W2. Would it be legal?

Or the company refuses to issue W2 for these employees and informs IRS that W2 is pending. What happens to these ghosts at tax time?

Re:Can companies mess them in W2?

[Actually, I do RTFA]

No. A company has to give you a correct W2 by Jan 31st/Feb 1st or they face some serious penalties from the government.

Now, a valid error would probably be excused (transposition of digits, etc.) but a group of quitting employees all getting massive errors...

Good

[WillAffleckUW]

The companies deserve it.

In the 1944-1974 period, the split between capital and labor was 50:50 (you kept half of the profit from productivity gains from your work).

In the 1974-2018 period, the split between capital and labor was 90:10 (you get 10 cents of the extra dollar profit your employer "earned" from your work). Frequently that was less than increased costs of living for employees.

Ghost away!

For the best outcome the government

[rsilvergun]

needs to step in on the employees side. Very high paying jobs have severance to encourage you to give notice and plan your departure. That's maybe the top 30% of jobs if I'm being charitable. Meanwhile the bottom 70% get laid off the week before or of Christmas.

The reason workers need these protections is that we don't have enough information to function in a free market. We don't know if our boss is going to lay us off. But he does. He's got the entire company's books to go over. We've got what they make public every quarter if we're lucky. The prefect free market only works in a world of perfect information being applied perfectly.

Oh, and for my readers over one of the ponds, we don't really have unemployment insurance. This is something even folks living here have a hard time believing, but again if you're not in that top 30% then when you go for unemployment insurance the company will fight you for it.

Let me explain: Unemployment insurance is just that, insurance. Companies pay for it. It's not a tax and it's not paid out of the General fund. In America it's literally an insurance program with premiums. And it's optional. The only requirement is that if an employee applies and gets it and you're not paying the premiums you have to pay out of pocket for their payments. If course, if you fire the employee "with cause" or they willingly quit they're not eligible, and you don't pay. Furthermore if they do apply you can appeal their application... to an arbitration board... that you appointed.

I shit you not, at a place I worked that did mass layoffs they brought out the local Sheriff to intimidate the workers into signing paperwork that said they quit. Stuck 'em in a room (this was pre-cell phones for poor people) and wouldn't let 'em leave until they signed away their rights. I also had a legally blind buddy of mine who had to quit a job when the site moved to a place with no bus lines. He applied for unemployment, got it, then had to pay it all back with interest when the company won in arbitration because he could have use the company car pool program... that was started a week after he applied for his benefits at the new site... a month after we moved... and had no one in it except other folks without reliable transportation looking for rides.

Once again, the free market isn't.

Except the employers will blacklist you

[rsilvergun]

and there are increasingly fewer employers ever year thanks to all the mergers and acquisitions.

Consequences, schmonsequences

[rsilvergun]

The job market still sucks except for college grads with STEM degrees. And that's about 15-20% of the population. They'll have 200 applications for qualified employees in two days and they'll probably still grab an H1-B off the rack at Wipro.

We've completely tipped the balance of power towards the ruling class and the CEOs (same thing really). What I don't understand is why folks don't understand this.

There's a left of center billionaire, mighta been Warren Buffett, can't remember, who remarked: There is a class war going on, and my class is winning.

Know your workers before you accept them

[AHuxley]

Study their past. Their online life. Did they study a lot for their education? Have a part time job? Wealthy but always studied a lot?
Did they study their way to a great job?
Get free non academic consideration for "demographics"? Never really show an ability to study, move from job to job for "reasons"?
Become friends with political activists, take part in party political activism? Show any interest in unions?

Look for personality traits and changes over a person working life and their education level. Work and how they present their past when seeking employment with your company.
Do they lie directly when asked about the years worked? Trying to span missing months and years with one "job".
Strange gaps in their working life? Months and years "missing" that get covered over by a past job extended on a resume to cover the gap?
Look into their actual start and stop dates for all their past work before an interview. Do the actual working years follow their "up to date" resume and lies told during an interview?
A wealthy person can afford to enjoy life and not work. See what they did over that time and why they needed to hide that time.
Will they have the same lifestyle need to walk out again?
A poor person was doing "something" at that time, but now wants to hide something. Look into what they did and why they feel the need to hide that time span.
Will they walk away again?

Needed a "holiday" in anther nation but try to hide that lost time? Do their mil service in another nation? Have a split loyalty to your nation and all work in any company? Faith and cult considerations that needed years that will not be talked about? An under cover journalist who had to hide some years?
Undercover police who rushed their resume preparation and will only be staying weeks to place spy hardware?

Dont hire people who cant work, never learned how to study, who did not show a good attitude when learning. Who lie on applications. Who have pasts they want to hide.
Who got a free pass on their academic results for non academic reasons.
In todays networked and digital world its hard to totally hide a working past.
Some investigation over every part of a resume before accepting a person can ensure only the best workers get hired on merit.

Got ghosted?
Look back over every aspect of the present story and how that person got work.
Police? Spy? Under cover journalist? Worker with no ability to work?
Did they do something to your network firewall, security, take data? Do searches for projects and terms they did not work on and should have no normal reason to know about?
Learn how they got their resume in and got a job. Do someone help them get work?
Look for their same traits in all other workers and anyone seeking work.

Re: Booming job market?!?!?

[Aristos Mazer]

I was just a kid back then, but what I heard bothered me, and in the years since, I've said that I think Clinton should have been prosecuted for lying under oath after he left office -- I didn't think it warranted impeachment because it wasn't a lie regarding the country or economy or anything related to the office. But, to be fair, we should forgive Trump one felony level lie. So, pick one of the 14 from the list, forgive it, and we'll only focus on the remaining 13. And the violation of the emoluments clause.

Employers ghost me!

[antdude]

During employments and when trying to get employed. :(

Re:lame idiotic Shanghai Bill

[thestallion]

of course if you ghost your employer resulting in damages then you are an asshole

Not always, sometimes they are the asshole and they deserve it.

Re:It depends.

[c-A-d]

That's why you find a new job that starts just after you get back from vacation.

Re:It depends.

[crbowman]

In california they must pay you for your earned vacation regardless of why you exit. It would be like not paying you for the last two weeks of work. You already did the work and earned it.

Good!

[DaMattster]

It's about time employers get a taste of their own medicine. A corporation can let someone go with no notice and it completely disrupts that person's life. It's time the corporation feel that same kind of pain!