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MS Introduces Optical Mouse
Unknwn writes "Microsoft announced today their new optical mouse, the Intellimouse Explorer. For some reason, they think that optical mice or something new. I have some Sun 3s and Sun 4s lying around which make that a joke... =) " I happen to have an optical mouse at my feet right now. Looks nice, but is it worth $75? I have had the
worst luck with MS peripherals (they were gifts!), but I have friends who swear by them...Update: 04/20 03:16 by J : A "concerned" reader wrote us to say that the mouse will not require a special pad like the older opitcal mice. He also said he had a chance to play with it, and that it was quite nice. Anyone else care to share?
(Sorry, couldn't resist. ;)
Since dirty rollers - even with a spotless mouse pad - really annoys me, I'll probably get one of these mice. I bet it wouldn't work on a featureless surface like a first-surface optically flat mirror, but for regular surfaces with some texture (cloth, formica etc.) it should work well. Previous generation optical mice suffered from being tied to the fixed geometry of the grid - if this system approximates the marketing hype, it should work nicely.
As much as I hate Microsoft, their mice and Sidewinder joysticks and pretty good. Now if they would just get out of the software business and stick to what they are good at...
It much better than the Sun Sparc mouse that 'works' on some surfaces... this mouse works a lot better (I know, used and tried every type including the new IntelliMouse/Eye).
If this mouse came out by any other company than MS, I am sure no one would rip it apart so. It kind of makes me sick seeing all this childish MS bashing no matter what they do (right or wrong).
Anyways.......
Agreed here too. The MS bashing is getting plain silly, it's a fad almost. 'Your l337 if ya ba$h the evil empire.. whoo' good grief. They could come out with anything right about now, and you'd have someone there gripping it up, just because.
If anyone has ever worked in end user support, imagine those people moving to the Unix world. Their lives as well as the lives of support techs become quite misserable. A great insight into this is #linux on EfNet, someone asks a question, and it's "Oh, god RTFM" or if your lucky you get a cryptic answer (from their stand point). I don't mind delving into something to learn it, but you must remember not everyone is a geek at heart. There are those types that see a machine as nothing other than a tool.
Unix stronghold is servers, I wish more servers were run on Unix, Unix provides VERY nice features in that arena. However I do NOT wish more clients ran Unix, it just complicates their lives everytime I see it.
It somewhat reminds me of the ameatuer radio (HAM) radio style crowd in a way. Why does EVERYTHING need to be one size fits all? Why can't we have Unix take over servers, Windows take over desktops, PDAs for the business folks, Mac's for the people that fall outside of business nor the want to learn computers too much but still do some stuff.
Keep it presentable?! Why would you want to do that? Whoever has the
dirtiest mouse in the office is obviously the most productive. I like
my mice dirty. But my real pride and joy is my filthy 84-key IBM AT
keyboard, undeniably the greatest keyboard ever made by man. Geez, it's
nearly 15 years old now, and it's made of steel. This heavy fucker can
kill any other keyboard in the office, and it has the battle scars to
prove it. It also proves I am the manliest dude around!
Coplan asks:
if I printed out a grid that was smaller than normal, would I be able to mess with the speed of the mouse that way?
Yes, but at the expense of stability. If I remember from when I was using a Sun3, the mouse motion gets jittery if you compress the grid.
----
Open mind, insert foot.
This was the exact same internal mechanism on the original mechanical mouse for the Indigo from SGI. I'm sure that the SGI mice were made by Mouse Systems, not by SGI.
Mouse Systems may not still be the input device OEM supplier for Microsoft, but somebody is!
They don't make this stuff, they just ask their OEM partner to show 'em "cool stuff', and some of it gets a Seattle marketing job... --Jeremiah
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
Do you have any idea how little power is needed for something like this? It probably uses something on the order of one or a few hundred mW, which is lost in the noise from processor, memory and hard drive in a laptop. Might matter in a palmtop, but then this mouse isn't intended to be used with palmtops.
Then again, this is a Microsoft product, so who knows?
- A.P.
--
"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
You can have the best mouse in the world, but in the end... it's still a mouse. Since this is MS, innovation is of course out of the question, but I'll stick to my Wacom ArtZ II tablet and Synaptecs touchpad, thanks.
BTW, for those of you still stuck with mice, beware; the constant arm motion between keyboard and mouse could be harmful. A good touchpad isn't near the price of one of these mice I bet; my keyboard has a great touchpad built right in, and cost $60 (one of those split keyboards).
The tablet was of course quite a bit more, but if you're serious about digital art, you're going to have one; if not, you don't need it anyway.
Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage
Sun used to ship optical mice all of the time. The major downside to them was the special reflective mouse pad which they required. If that got all funky, the mouse would start to act up and become unresponsive.
I'm not sure how these new MS mice operate, but I'm sure the surface they move across will affect how accurate they are.
5 years?!? How about 15 years! I distincly remember seeing an optical mouse (with that funky mouse pad) back in 83-84 in Computerland (Medicine Hat, Alta). Can't remember what it was attached to, though.
Bill - aka taniwha
--
Leave others their otherness. -- Aratak
Am I the only one who thinks that incorperating what amounts to a small camera and microprocessor into a mudane device like the mouse a bit of overengineering? A bit of fuzz on the rollers aside, current SIMPLER mechanical systems work just fine. Actually, a hybrid like the Logitech visually trackballs that track movement using dots on the ball seems still to be a cleaner solution.
I guess it's a sort of cool idea, but the Microsoft corperate mindset seems to be "added complexity=innovation" with little regard to the implications of this "innovation" (=added complexity). Go figure.
I wonder when their "Butt Hinge" product will come to market. If you check out the IBM patent server, Microsoft has a patent of Butt Hinges!
First of all, there have been optical mice around, but this is one that you can get for $50 (or $75 for the version with scroll wheels and extra buttons) and you'll be able to find at most major computer stores. At the moment, it's nearly impossible to find optical mice anywhere. I'll probably get one, since I'm sick of all the dirt getting in my wheeled mouse and making it hard to move the pointer precisely, and I don't see anybody else selling optical mice at my local Best Buy.
Anyway, Microsoft hardware in general is pretty nice. I've had no problems with the Sidewinder gamepad, and the joystick is nice as well.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Do a webcrawler or yahoo search for "mouse balls" (grin).
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
Posted by Assmodeus:
what in the hell would anyone need a tail light on a mouse for?? geee! im going backwards, better watch where im going. i mean how many of us actually look at the mouse as we are moving it??
Posted by DiegoGuy:
I agree with you, but to a certain point. I agree with the people who dislike Microsoft for shutting out other competition in areas where there are just plain better competitors than MS. An example of this is Microsoft making every effort to shut 3com PalmOS out of business. Let's face it folks, the PalmOS is better than Windows CE for PDA's! (I think we can all agree, right?) But when everyone is just disliking Microsoft because it's the "in" thing to do and you're somehow more of a geek, I get sick of it!
People are wasting SOOOOOOO much time using Linux as a client system just so they can somehow think they are boycotting Microsoft just so they can tell other geeks on the Net "hey I don't use Windows so I'm more cool than you are!". The main reason I love Linux and UNIX in general is that is KICKS ASS for serving. The Internet was built on UNIX, and UNIX is still where it's at. Linux has a more stable kernel than Windows, and can do more with less hardware than Windows as a server. 16 MB ram on an NT Server? Don't even think about it. But for Linux running Apache, it would run great.
I mean, what else is there to say? Sometimes I wonder about the Psychology of the whole MS bashing. It's almost a completely adolescent thing to do, just like when we rebelled when we were teenagers.
Think for yourself, and use what YOU think is the best and simplest and easiest way to get the job done. At the same time, don't just use NT Servers because Microsoft brainwashes you into thinking they are faster than UNIX as webservers, because they just AREN'T. Be yourself, think for yourself, and you'll succeed in business, at home, or wherever.
Only the Sun3 used the 680* processor. Even the IPCs used the Sparc chip. You can generally get a Sun3 (or was that a SparcStation 3?) for a couple of hundred bucks. Unless you collect oddball computers, it's definitely not worth it.
We still have a bunch of the old optical mice hanging around. They're kinda neat, because I hold my hand at about 45 degrees from logical north; I have to turn the gridded mouse pad, or my mouse doesn't move like I expect.
- Tony
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
I love the Natural keyboard feel as well, but since I was first introduced to it on a Mac, I wasn't cough too enthused about buying one from Microsoft. Instead, I got one from PC Systems which has served me very well. The only problem was, when I cleaned it, I screwed something back in wrong and now the mouse pass-through cable doesn't work. But that's not their fault.
And from comparison, it's on par in terms of quality with the MSNK, although it's not as slick looking (has three stupid buttons in the middle, I think there's a model that isn't this braindead).
Hope that helps you, if you ever need to replace your keyboard!
--Matthew
>The next paragraph it talks about the scroll wheel... Am I missing something?
Yes. There are two versions, the IntelliEye and the Intellimouse Explorer. The former does not have a wheel and thus has no moving parts at all.
I'd love one if it was cordless. I just wish I'd picked up another Logitech cordless when they were having a rebate on them last month.
P.S. Red Hat Linux 5.2, the boxed version, is less than $10 at CompUSA this week.
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
It's the horribly innovative, terribly useful middle mouse butt^H^H^H^Hwheel.
"Hot lesbian witches! It's fucking genius!"
Well, even though it's a fast rate of sampling, would it not be possible to create a situation where the DSP gets confused? Could the mouse suddenly think it's being poved in a different direction?
It would be really cool if they could minaturize the same systems the new cars have, that funky new traction control setup which detects driving/handling anomalities via momentum sensors or whatever those are called. Now your mouse would go exactly where you want it to. Just what I need for team fortress!
"Hot lesbian witches! It's fucking genius!"
An optical sensor captures images of the work surface at a rate of 1,500 images per second, and a digital signal processor (DSP) translates changes between the images into on-screen movements.
Just don't use this mouse on top of any sensitive documents. This thing is scanning your surface the whole time and sending the composite image to Bill.
- Mouse in "look mode" all the time (turn and look up/down)
- button 1: fire
- button 2: run
- button 3: various. In Quake II, it "zooms in", which is simply awesome for long-distance railgun or rocket shots
- ASDF: strafe left, back, forward, strafe right respectively
- space: jump
- V: crouch (or slide down in Descent)
- X: center view
- R: various ('use' in Half-Life, 'slide up' in Descent)
That may help. The trackball is excellent for aiming--I think it's even better than the mouse, because you don't have to move your arm--but it royally sucks for movement.Unfortunately for my dad, the phone's interaction with the computer died. The hardware is still going perfectly strong, but something in the software that communicates with the phone has gone haywire; my dad can no longer check his e-mail via the telephone or keep his call waiting lists on his computer, because, due to a software fault, the phone and computer are no longer on speaking terms.
There's an instructive lesson here about Microsoft's strengths and weaknesses.
And when they're done shelving it, there will be no optical mouse. Where once there was a private entrepreneur who thought he could invent something without Microsoft acquiring it for shelving purposes, there is now one less competitor against Microsoft. The same went for clear type fonts.
The way I imagine an optical mouse might work without the funky silvery mouse pad is by using a printed ball, similar to what Logitech does with the TrackMan Marble. In this setup, the light sensors would track the movement of dots printed on the surface of the ball. The rollers would be optional (and not needed).
:op
In an orthogonal subject: Microsoft Intelligence Exploder...
In Soviet Russia, Jesus asks: "What Would You Do?"
I have one of the first marbles that Logitech produced and I still love it. It's much easier to keep clean than traditional mice, and the optical action of the ball is smoooooooth.
keep acting shocked and move slowly towards the cake.
I use a Natural keyboard on my SGI. I like the shape, but I hate the spongy feeling of the keys, and I had to phisically disable the Windows keys (they would crash the X server).
As for mice, I'll take Logitech over MS any day.
"Be nice, veer left, and never stop thinking" Iain Banks - Walking On Glass
Or how about a surface with a moving image?
:)
Like a flatscreen tv or something.
If it works exactly the way they say it does, one could write a program on a palmpilot or something to move the mouse for you. Just move a patterned image around on the screen to trick the mouse.
Though why would someonewant to do that?
I dunno. I see a lot of people bashing MS hardware here and there and what they call new and where it was developed from. Guess what, the mouse is pretty basic. All of the designs for it essentially come from the same basic idea.
I've never had a problem with a Microsoft mouse, and it's comfort is unbeat (Logitech and Kensingtons just don't fit into the palm of my hand like the MS mouse does). I have a computer that's four years old that's still using the same MS mouse that it came with. I have another computer with one of the newer wheelie deals and it works fine, too (I don't really use the wheel much, but it's still a great idea, IMHO). Of course, I treat my hardware with respect. The only trauma my mice undergo is the three day trip between school and home every summer. I do find that they have problems running over some surfaces, but all mice have these problems. A good $1 mouse pad tends to take care of this (one with that funky grain to its fabric).
As for their other hardware, their keyboards work great. I've used other ergonomic keyboards and none matches up to the comfort of the MS one. I find it rather large and klunky (I have one of the older, non-Elite versions), but I don't care cause I don't move it a whole lot. My Linux system has a standard Dell keyboard which I use constantly, but I'm much more relaxed typing in my MS keyboard.
A lot of people replying to these messages tend to take MS-bashing to new heights. Chiding a company that you hate for putting a tail light on a mouse is ridiculous. It was a design decision meant to appeal to the mass consumer. MS isn't targeting stuff at you and I. They're targeting it at the 70% of the world's home computer population that is clueless and likes to look cool. It's an excellent marketing decision. Flashing lights and bells have always appealed to consumer society.
And of the 30 or so comments I saw, only two of the people had actually used the mouse. They had good things to say. One might criticize MS for their product, but at least look at it first. Otherwise, you look like a ranting/raving buffoon.
I never saw a Honeywell.
But the design is the same as the good ole DECstation 3 button puck mouse.
Two little offset wheels on the bottom. These things tracked better than anything else in the world.
The only downside was the buttons and size were kind of bad for ergonomics.
They showed it off at Comdex...they even had a 9 or 10 foot tall model.....I missed Linus' speech, but I saw him on the floor, I did a double take when I realized it was him, and it was too late to say hi :(
Jason
Naah, Microsoft already has demonstrated input technology that uses PS/2 or USB (Natural Keyboard Elite). The market for USB peripherals is not that big yet, and they're not going to get the big OEM accounts with a USB-only mouse.
For the record, I've had nothing but good luck with MS hardware products. Their joysticks (especially the new ones) and mice have always been of excellent quality and construction. And the MS natural keyboard elite is orders of magnitude better than those cheap $10 knockoffs when it comes to quality.
As in late 50's automobile vintage. Now that would be style!
-----
The butt hinge? From one of my home pages:
Microsoft has recently innovated and patented the door hinge as part of its runnaway embrace and extend strategy. This is no joke! One step closer towards Gates' promised and detailed World Domination.
But they do make decent mice. Software, on the other hand...
Checking IBM's OS/2 Device Driver Pak Online reveals support for USB based mice, keyboards, modems, and speakers. There is even support for Micro$oft's USB Intellimouse.
Being a long-time OS/2 user I've been on the receiving end of their tactics for quite some time:
After experiencing such I refuse to support them by purchasing any of their products, no matter how good they might be, because doing otherwise furthers Microsoft's ability to maintain their stranglehold on the market.
i was just reminded of my own problems by this article, i have a SUN 3/110 with no mouse and anyone who has an extra sun type three mouse and pad would be generously rewarded...well ok, resonably compensated...if they could help me out by sending it my way...i've tried all the major used hardware and junk houses and no one seems to be able to find a type three mouse for me. I guess it's time to pull out the big guns...and "ask slashdot", well sort of...
A Call For A New Slashdot Moderation Level!
There's another peripheral maker out there that just opened up the specs to a lot of its hardware -- specifically their joysticks -- so that open source drivers can now be written with ease. This company is Logitech.
This is the kind of thing I like to see, and I support the company by buying their products. The other day I went looking for a WingMan Interceptor but couldn't find it. I spoke to a salesman and explained how this new development had just made Logitech products more appealing to me and possibly other Linux users. He thanked me for the information and said he'd order a line of Logitech joysticks immediately.
As I explained to the salesman, I've used MS Sidewinders and I think they're excellent joysticks. And as he explained to me, Microsoft is beginning to dominate the market for high-quality input devices.
I have looked at what's happening with peripherals now and I've looked at what happened with browsers, word processors, spreadsheets, and operating systems in the past and I've drawn the following conclusion: If I choose Microsoft today, then tomorrow I may no longer have a choice.
PS. I bought the Logitech Cordless Desktop (it was impulse shopping at its worst). I love the pros, but I hate the cons. The keyboard has a tendency to think a key is still down after I've released it. This happens mostly with the movement keys while playing Q2 (grr!). Also, the sequence ^X^S^X^C usually fails at some point. Can other cordless keyboard users tell me if this is to be expected and if there's anything to be done to improve the situation? (I've observed the 8 inch radius guidelines and am withing 1.5m)
--
Fuck the system? Nah, you might catch something.
I was just talking about this to a guy I know who just recently joined the Dark Side and was going through assimilation-- err, orientation. From what he told me, this mouse will work on almost any surface, besides glass and polished marble. Interesting idea... I wonder how they managed to pull that off? Optical mice of old usually had some kind of reflective grid mousepad or something similar... surely they'd encounter problems on the variety of surfaces we work on. Anyways, that's the skinny from inside... hope this provides the teeniest bit of info.
Adam "Fogie" Fogler -- Professional Paid College Student
The motion detection should be fun.
Another idea: turn the mouse upside down and wave your hand across it. Voila, a mouseless mouse, at least until you need to push a button.
There are lots of fun optical inputs to use with this thing, although it probably requires really close contact to focus correctly.
---- "If we have to go on with these damned quantum jumps, then I'm sorry that I ever got involved" - Erwin Schrodinger
I had you problems until I bought a "3M Precise Mousing Surface". As a bonus you get a really good mouse-mat.
the Trackman Marble uses the same principle, yes. If you open it and run your finger across the little window, your pointer moves.
The concept of using a mouse on your knee or chair arm is nothing new, i set my trackman on my knee all the time. What this new MS mouse does *not* solve is the need for much desktop real estate. The trackman takes no additional space outside of it's actual size. Any mouse that you have to move around will.
Using this mouse on your knee will be a bit kludgey too, since most knees are not likely to be a whole screen's worth in movement.
Oh well, perhaps and improvement on the typical mouse, but certainly not better then the Trackman.
Don't forget visual. If it has anything at all to do with programming, it's visual.
> We made mouse pads by laminating patterns we'd print on a standard laser printer.
We just photocopied the original mouse pads. By enlarging or reducing the copy, you could change the mouse sensitivity.
> Sun used to ship optical mice (from Mouse House or Mouse Systems) that used two wavelengths of LED
I think it was one visible (blue stripes) and one IR (looked very pale yellow stripes). If you had the pad the wrong way round, the mouse got confused.
I've often wondered why the Xerox style ones never became more popular.
rant
Great, now the kids will have something to match their blinking, glowing tennis shoes.
Hokey statistics and ancient misconceptions are no match for a good thought in your head, kid!
What really gets me is that years back (think 70's) Xerox had optical mice that were capable of working on more or less any surface with a trivial amount of onboard logic and three LEDs or so. I have no idea why they didn't catch on.
Well, except the Xerox folks seem to be completely incompetent when it comes to marketing an idea...
DNA just wants to be free...
If you play quake you wouldnt say that wheel sux
Stan "Myconid" Brinkerhoff
SB.
I interviewed with 3M and bought a couple from their inhouse store. Best mouse pads I have ever used. Really helps when you set the mouse sensitivity high for drawing work. But do heed the warning about placing them on highly varnished wood.
"Dogs and cats, living together...it's mass hysteria!"
As informed consumers, we have to be able to see past the marketing hype of any company, however, I am getting a bit tired of Microsoft trumpeting older technologies as "new". For example, ClearType appears to be nothing more than subpixel rendering which I believe we all discussed as not being new just as this mouse is a slightly updated design on the Logitech Marble.
"Dogs and cats, living together...it's mass hysteria!"
The old IBM keyboards are all I'll use. I have a private stockpile of them that I've rescued from junked PS/2s, and every one of my machines has one hooked to it. I can type at least 25% faster on these bad boys than on newer, "soft-click" mushboards. Plus, it makes a hideous racket when you really get going...
Not as loud as an old IBM System/36 terminal I once used, though. That thing had some sort of tactile/aural feedback relay that thunked inside the keyboard casing with every keystroke. The thing was a huge brick, and looked like a Commodore 64 (two inches thick, with deeply cupped keycaps) and weighed ten pounds. And you know what? It was the best keyboard I've ever typed on...
Uhhh unless it's using a DSP to correlate changes in the underlying image which requires FFTs and such, in which case, yeah, it'd take quite a special driver to move the cursor around. Unless the DSP is in the mouse. Which I doubt. I think it's a WinMouse. :-)
The mouse isn't using the the same method sun's mice used to track. Looks like they're taking snapshots of the surface the mouse is on(like 1500 a second) and using the differences in the snapshots to move the mouse pointer.
Ya, cordless. Sure. That cord's often the only thing that keeps things on my desk from being lost forever.
--- http://foo.ca
I got a demo of this mouse during a recent (but generally unimpressive) visit/tour of M$ R&D.
A cheap CCD camera images the surface you're moving on and essentially cross-correlates the received image with previous ones, providing an estimate of displacement. A small lamp near the camera illuminates the mousepad/table/jean surface underneath.
It works well on any surface that's textured 'enough' to see some pattern and perform the correlation. Apparently you don't need much, and it's nice to not rely on mechanical friction.
The mouse prototype (I didn't see the product) was an impressive piece of technology; and the inventor, I have to admit, seemed like a competant, level-headed engineer.
It was also kinda cool to see the 'mouse-eye's' (well, maybe it's belly's) view of the mousepad on a monitor during test use..
I still have no plans to buy one.
Obviously not for a green PC then... think about it. If even as much as 40% of the light is reflected back to the optical sensors, then that other 60% is wasted.
The ability of the mouse to track over any surface is a plus to loptop users. If I had a laptop, redirecting the light so as to "capture" most of it on the sensor would be in my favor. Wasted light is wasted power is shorter batter life. Reducing the expended light, and improving the reflected content saves me money in the long run. The taillight is a waste.
I still think that mice should have feet!!! (Honeywell circa 1992)
Time flies like an arrow;
Time flies like an arrow;
Fruit flies like a bananna
I could really use that postscript file!!!
:-(
If you still have access to it, could you send it to:
jkenney@sat.net
I know this is the wrong place to ask this, but I cannot seem to get your e-mail address
James Ray Kenney mailto:jrkenney@swbell.net
On my mouseman plus the wheel can be clicked and functions JUST like a third button.
I would think that the trackball version would do the same.
James Ray Kenney mailto:jrkenney@swbell.net
If I remember there were 2 reasons that I did not buy one(and I REALY HATE dirty mouse balls!):
1: You had to use the drivers that came with the mouse, and it was incompatible with some games because of that(at least that is what the reviews in the game mags said.)
2: Only 2 buttons.
P.S. there were older mice with wheels on the bottom, but on those the wheels were virticle(spelling) and at right angles to each other, and had sharp edges(I have actually used one of these and they worked quite well, though you would have never thought they would frome the design.
The honeywell mouse has the wheels mounted horizantally to the table with just a slight tilt to the axel, the tilt being angled 90deg from each other(not from the table, only about 5 to 10 deg from that)
James Ray Kenney mailto:jrkenney@swbell.net
Your girlfriend and a glass of water huh? Likely story.
It sounds to me like someone was trying out one handed typing at the porn sites!
Mice: I had a magic point mouse, liked it for its low profile and light-touch buttons. Had some serious weight too. The MS mouse buttons have too hard a touch for me. Mouse wheel is nice, I use it to scroll in netscape and emacs. Whichever one I use, I'm always de-crudding it or it gets bumpy as a country backroad. The ball retainer ring on the MS mouse is a nice touch. MS Trackball is horrid, the buttons are in the *wrong* places, and that one needs constant de-crudding, once a day it seems. I now have a Logitech MarbleMan+, which uses a spotted ball and an optical tracker. Crud doesn't affect the tracking, just offers some resistance to pushing. De-crudding involves flicking the crud off the posts. I love it.
MS Natural Keyboard: the new model I hate. Tiny arrow keys with a diamond shape -- blech. Function keys that look like they belong on a laptop. Had an old one, the feel of it was nice, the touch on it was no mac keyboard (those have very nice key feel). Fed it a beer one night and it died even after attempts to clean it. I stick with el-cheapo $10 generic keyboards now.
MS SideWinder joystick: The twist was innovative, but I rarely use it (got better torso positioning with the keyboard in mechwarrior, only use it for wing commander because its sucky flight model forces me to use it). One of the springs on it snaps loudly when I move the stick in a circle, though it doesn't seem to affect positioning. The throttle on it is flimsy, inaccurate, and worthless. And nothing ever seems to use those four extra buttons. The force feedback model looks nice, but I've seen better and more forceful FF joysticks out there, I'll give MS's a miss.
Overall, it's pretty much average.
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
You can still get one of the old MS Natural keyboards, if you wanna do a little digging. Due to an unfortunate combination of my girlfriend and a glass of water, mine was ruined last week, but I bid on a new one on eBay, got it for 52.02 (a buck less than mine cost me originally) it's brand new, and on it's way to me now.
When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout. --Robert A. Heinlein
You can bet that this MS mouse will be USB and drivers will be available for Windows only.
That's why Microsoft is one of the most profitable companies in history - they have very well defined "upgrade" paths - even though they really aren't upgrades.
Its a free country - you're free to be as stupid as you want. If people want to buy, who am I to stop them?
my experiences w/ Sun's optical mouse have made me avoid them.
*Special mouse pad is far too fussy for human contact ( must clean almost daily or cursor develops a mind of its own)
*There's no resistance to them, I suppose I prefer some feedback from a mouse.
*Sorry, but Sun system's mice are anti-ergonomic. Right up there with the pitiful i-mac mouse.
*Do you need yet another device to send power to?
MS, again wants to be your 'one stop shop', buying technology from some young upstart and selling it as its own. As a lefty, I hate MS for insisting on providing computer makers with 'righty-only' mice. Kudos to "Dell" for shipping a Logitech symetrical mouse now.
I love my trackball....I'll wait for Kensington or Logitech to take a crack at optical mice.
This tells you how old I am...
It's pretty bad when the mouse on my computer has more processing power than my first computer (early '80s). It sounds like MS's newest mouse blows away my 2nd and maybe 3rd computers as well!
Well, it may be a good product, but they definitely deserve slagging off for the self-glorifying, blow-your-own trumpet text of the announcent. I know this is a press-release, but the greatest innovation in mouse-technology in 30 years? Come on... ;-)
The red glowing underside sounds cool tho'
My track ball is optical, its awesome, it glides and it needs cleaning... once every few meals with greasy finger foods... (like the MS super mouse wouldn't need to be cleaned then?)
I don't understand the innovation... (should I spray paint my trackball silver to learn more?)
I like not having to even move my arm... only my thumb...
-Thomas
PS i do acknowledge the interesting idea of not having to use a patterned mouse pad...(wonder how it's done)
They claim that these mice will work on any surface, not just the weird silvery optical mice pad the old optical mice required... plus they look sorta neat and have extra buttons... and extra buttonses is good.
I dunno, i hate m$ as a software company, but i have to admit the hardware of theirs that i have used is decent...
course, i'm a cheap bastard and am happy enough with my current mouse that i wouldn't actually buy one of them thingums...
After dealing with limited space in my apartment, I decided that my regular mouse wasn't going to cut it and bought a trackball mouse. I love this thing! It uses a little black and red ball, tracked optically, so there's no risk of mechanical failure...to clean it I just pop the ball out of the socket, blow out the dust, and pop the ball back in. The buttons on either side (this is a two button model) make it pretty easy to emulate middle button action...just click with my third finger and thumb simultaneously. The only problem that I have is if I drop the mouse, the ball sometimes falls out and rolls away...hard to find with my paper-strewn floors...other than that I have no complaints about it.
:))
(NB- Logitech didn't pay me for this endorsement, but I'll gladly take money from them
Finding God in a Dog
Does anyone remember the Honeywell mouse? I have had one of these mice for six years without any type of cleaning. From what I remember it is mechano-optical (two-disks on the bottom replace the ball). This mouse is great because it can be used on almost any surface; it can even be used upside down :)
Too bad no one bought them... eventually the design was sold to another company(kensington, I think).
Actually the mouse was designed by Honeywell but they sold their design/rights to Keytronic after trying to market the design(with limited success) for a year or two.
The Logitech TrackMan Marble series has been doing that for quite a while now. :-)))
I have the original TrackMan Marble sitting on my desk right now, the best mouse device I've ever used!
I think M$ has done something new (maybe... there IS some chance that they might have) and the way they are marketing it, it sounds like it just takes a picture of the surface it's on and compares it to the last shot taken.
The only problem I see with that is... what happens when you run out of deskspace and have to pick the mouse up to get more room to move?
If it takes 1500 pics/s then it'll be able to tell you're moving it... hmm.. maybe they *did* steal logitech's technology.
~enucite~
Why? It's the "because I can" factor at work. :)
:)
Seriously, though... That's an interesting idea. I've got a Palmpilot Pro, I can dig up one of those old Xerox optical mice, and I can prob'ly learn the SDK for Palmpilot...
Maybe it can be a summer project.
-W-
-W-
Is it all journey, or is there landfall?
--Ellison & van Vogt, 'The Human Operators'
Well, technically, the mouse buttons themselves move, but I think that's being a bit too picky.
ActiveIntelliDirectVisualCJX++++
If I recall correctly, USB Macs include a very basic USB driver in ROM (true ROM, not the "ROM-in-RAM"), which allows for key commands, etc., before the system loads.
Right on. I'm using the IBM AT click-clack keyboard with the red trackpoint clitty. Certainly the best PC keyboard ever made (and still retails for $200 or so).
$10 PC keyboards seem to lead to carpal tunnel syndrome. It's my secret hope that the companies foisting these will get hit with a class action suit.
--
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
I have yet to find a keyboard/mouse combination as good as my MS Natural Keyboard/IntelliMouse Pro. I had the original IntelliMouse for two years and I never had a problem with it. The IntelliMouse Pro is even better, I love the design of it.. it is quite a bit higher than the original IntelliMouse and seems to be more comfortable. However, it looks like the Explorer might replace the IM Pro as my mouse of choice.
Well see... Now you can just tape something on the
;)
bottom... There is always room for fun.
Until they start running on GPS they can't stop the mouse fun
Do they still put the 6 key on the wrong side? I can't tell because all of their ads now have a person's hand conspicuously over that part of the keyboard. :)
I do use their mice though.
What I would really like is a mouse that is the same shape, but made of marble with ball berrings for the glide (instead of the little plastic strips) and one really big one for tracking. If it was smooth enough I think it would be a really nice feel.
Edu. sig-line: Choose rhymes with lose. Chose rhymes with goes. Loose rhymes with goose.
Comparing? THEN use THAN.
Bashing MS because they took the concept of optical mice and improved upon it is senseless. Sure, Sun has been using optical mice for years. I used one back in college, and my company recently aquired a new Sun E250 server. The newer mice tracks on a desktop, the older one required a metallic pad like others in this thread have commented on (it did not track well on the desk). But the Sun mice are horribly uncomfortable, do not have a wheel, and do not have 5 buttons. Bashing MS in this case is like bashing Ford or Honda because they improved the fuel efficiency of the gasoline engine. The general concept, a gasoline engine, is nothing new. But they made it more efficient, which is better for the consumer. As for style, take a look at this picture for a jpeg of the new mouse. All opinions on physical beauty are subjective, but this rates pretty highly with me. Is the Intellimouse Explorer worth $75? Tough to say without trying it. I wouldn't have thought I would have paid for the original Intellimouse, but the time saved and comfort of using the wheel in nearly anything convinced me.
Well, thier price of 50$ for a 'regular' mouse is pretty darn good considering some ball mouses M$ makes cost 70$.
Since when was reintroducing technology a quantum leap??? Improvement yes. I think I'll give a quantum leap to airplanes, a new fangled thing called the BiWing, two wings for more lift...
And this whole no mouse pad, lets see you keep it clean.
LOGITECH is the only way to go.
... And they announced to support Linux ... Now if they would just create a driver for the touchpad on their natural keyboard.
The mousepad was not really necessary. When I was working with the old Motorola powered Sun3 and the SPARCstation1/2 I had some PostScript files which would produce the grids for the optical mice. You just printed out a page and used it as a very thin mouse pad when the original one got lost.
:-)
And it was even possible to use the LCD display of a wrist watch as a mouse pad. We had one customer where we removed the mouse pad so that they were not able to do any damage to the software that was running. So one of the guys working new the workstation figured out that he could move the mouse by using his watch as a very small mouse pad. So we got rid of the mouse completely
Too bad, though it does look cool, I can't help but hope it doesn't catch on. Stick the optical technology in an ambidexterous mouse and I'm sold.
Lefty rant:
The curvy mice are bad enough, and then you make the left button bigger, and now the buttons on the side! Too much.
And don't tell me I can get lefty version. I and many others work in a shared environment. And I'm not going to start carrying around my own personal mouse.
Blah.
That's pretty 'leet. I must admit, I've never heard of any of the optical mouse pads before. In theory, if I printed out a grid that was smaller than normal, would I be able to mess with the speed of the mouse that way? I'm sure there's an easier way to do it with software...but this is a curiousity question.
Those Mac mice (the round 'pucks' that ship with the translucent G3s) suck long and loud. We've installed about 25 of those G3 systems since they became available and all but 2 of them have come back with notes that read "Can I get my old mouse back? This one [profane oral/fecal action]."
I was personally a little surprised, since most of the digital artists and other creative types that get 'em usually think anything Apple does merits something along the lines of a Nobel Peace Prize.
-shawn
Yes, the old IBM PC keyboards, and even some of the not-that-old ones, are outstanding. Excellent tactile AND aural feedback. Obviously a product of the same people who made the Selectric such an excellent typewriter.
I salvaged four from our computer junkpile, and got enough keycaps to make two functioning keyboards. They're PS/2 era (given the PS/2 plugs), but still far better than any other PC keyboard I've used.
Now if I could manage to use a DEC VT100 keyboard and maybe the LK201 keyboard that goes with my VT320 usable on a PC system I'd be in heaven.
-Shawn
It doesn't say on their site, but is the IBM 347x terminal keyboard actually compatible with PCs? Do the non-PC function keys generate usable scancodes?
It's huge, and I think it would make an excellent keyboard..
I don't see how it'll work in these cases either. A surface with sufficiently high optical variance is probably required.
But I guess it should be possible to work with most real surfaces, like paper, which are actually quite rough on a microscopic level -- which means that the camera on the mouse must be of quite high resolution.
a "Butt Hinge" wtf is that?
it sounds kinda perverted.
MS Butt Hinge
hmmm
i donno, sounds somehow fitting.
"Computers will never truly be free until the last windows user is strangled with the entrails of the last mac user."
no kidding
I like Logitech stuff
they are nice product names
"Mouse" "Keyboard" "TrackBall"
AND
i owned 4 MS mice (job gave them to me) and a MS natural keyboard, all broken in exact 3 months.
I wouldnt buy a MS thing even if it was good.
"Computers will never truly be free until the last windows user is strangled with the entrails of the last mac user."
actually the new MS mouse sucks shit
no linux support?
no buy.
"Computers will never truly be free until the last windows user is strangled with the entrails of the last mac user."
how about water? eh? eh?
bet it doesnt work there!
"Computers will never truly be free until the last windows user is strangled with the entrails of the last mac user."
actually Logitech mice are excellent.
mabye you SUCK? eh? yeah i think so.
I think when Logitech comes out with a version it will absolutly rock this shitty MS mouse.
"Computers will never truly be free until the last windows user is strangled with the entrails of the last mac user."
Man, i've had 3 MS mice, and a bootleg.
All 3 MS mice stoped working well after 3 months.
The bootleg, now that lasted at least 6 months.
Then i got a logitech, had it for 2 years, still works like new.
"Computers will never truly be free until the last windows user is strangled with the entrails of the last mac user."
I wonder how well it works if I use a mirror (or maybe even a smooth single colour surface) as the mouse pad?
The press release says :
"An optical sensor captures images of the work
surface at a rate of 1,500 images per second, and a digital signal processor (DSP) translates changes between the images into on-screen movements."
I wonder how this works on a flat single colored surface? Like drafting tables and such...
I'll believe it when I see it... though since it'll only run with Windows and is overpriced I guess that's not too likely.
I think Logitech does a better job with ergonomics (if you're right-handed, that is). After using my new MouseMan Wheel for a day, all other mice felt like those iMac pills. And speaking of iMacs, MS is apparently going to market to the "Look, it's colored!" crowd. That's what passes for "radical" design these days.
That said, it's nice to see a significant improvement in optical mouse technology. Now that MS has opened the door, I imagine other companies, like Logitech, will flood the market with clones.
Read the fu**ing press release. The mouse will come in two flavours - USB and PS/2.
Microsoft has a huge research department and they really do a shitload of research when they are making hardware or designing user interfaces. Too bad they never do research about the correlation between customer happiness and software stability.
Anybody notice the Microsoft PR people missed a classic opertunity at some tounge-in-cheak humour?
If it were me, it would have been, "And since the mice have no balls..."
-AP
It's really a pity that Microsoft can't bring it's software build quality on par with it's hardware ability.
I really like the intellimouse, and the keyboard. Yeah, neither of them are really innovative, but still, they are well made. (I know the mouse was designed with SolidWorks, and it shows)
And with their "only sold with hardware" deals to computer stores, you can really pick them up on the cheap. That is, if you know folks who need a new HDD, or MOBO.
********* sig: If you don't like the law, get filthy stinking rich, and buy a better one.
Logitech DID used to make leftie-versions of most of their more ergonomically shaped products (such as the good old MouseMan 96), but I haven't seen a Logitech leftie version in years now...
Not like that's a problem for me.
I bought a 3M "Precise Mousing Surface" which is basically a 1mm thick mousepad that is about as floppy as newspaper and feels like it's made out of some magic material 3M came up with. It cost $12. In addition to being better for control, it has tiny, tiny grooves in it to collect gunk. I use it with my Logitech Cordless Desktop's mouse, which I've been using for about a year now. I open the mouse up and try to clean it about once a month, but there has never been any nasty stuff on it like I get with normal mouspads. Well worth the $12, and it looks pretty cool too.
Did you guys read Microsoft's press release for this mouse? This is the only time I've ever heard anyone brag about the MIPS in a mouse.
I'm lefthanded, and I've always used a mouse with my right hand. I started using them with a Apple IIGS, so it's not like I was using a teardrop shaped one or anything. I think I do it because I type better with my left hand. It's really only the great unwashed who control their computers mostly through the mouse. Punching hotkeys with my left hand and moving the mouse with my right seems like a good combination. I guess I can see your argument, but I don't know anybody who uses a mouse with their lefthand, even when the mouse they use is symmetric.
I'm amazed at how few no-ball (computer) mice I find in our local computer stores, but, then, I don't exactly live in them.
Legacy hardware/software addict. Midnight hacker, 1960. Codepage 819 in DOS: Total Latin-1 compatibility (no boxes/lines
Doesn't the iMac mouse have two colors, one per hemisphere? :)
At least, that way, you get one count per half-revolution
Legacy hardware/software addict. Midnight hacker, 1960. Codepage 819 in DOS: Total Latin-1 compatibility (no boxes/lines
It insults the blind, I can hear some poor politically-correct type say. /. is NG for changing your password from the default, using Lynx, or was!)
I hate this kind of P.C., fwiw. Nevertheless, M$'s visual stuff is probably useless for the blind and nearly so. I do sympathize with them. For reasons not important here, I use Lynx only, although my vision is quite good. I constantly send messages to webmasters telling them their sites are broken for Lynx. (Heck even
What really frosts my feathers almost to absolute zero is to spend 15 minutes carefully filling out a form, then try to submit the data, only to see "No form action defined!".
Sorry to wander so far off topic.
Legacy hardware/software addict. Midnight hacker, 1960. Codepage 819 in DOS: Total Latin-1 compatibility (no boxes/lines
Logitech has a version of the Marble that is usable with either hand. It has a bigger marble, and a bridge over the top. iirc.
Legacy hardware/software addict. Midnight hacker, 1960. Codepage 819 in DOS: Total Latin-1 compatibility (no boxes/lines
Although I haven't been *that* close to such design decisions, one reason could be damage during production; if a subassembly isn't physically rugged, it can be damaged easily. Two circuit boards joined by soldered wires is awful. If one is bad, it has to be sent somewhere for costly and (relatively) skilled hand desoldering, with possible damage to the holes. Reconnecting means more costly hand labor. Troubleshooting and repair at the manufacturing stage is really costly; being able to connect and disconnect is really worth it.
As well, one circuit board could come from Taiwan, another from Mexico, and hand-soldering a connector cable is just too labor-intensive.
This is as I see it.
Legacy hardware/software addict. Midnight hacker, 1960. Codepage 819 in DOS: Total Latin-1 compatibility (no boxes/lines
makes a motion-sensing TV camera, right? Might need lots of light, but an array of IR LEDs might work fine.
Legacy hardware/software addict. Midnight hacker, 1960. Codepage 819 in DOS: Total Latin-1 compatibility (no boxes/lines
While a fast (?) correlator is relatively exotic, we don't squawk about what's inside our Pentiums, do we? Speculative execution of both branches and out-of order execution + reordering are quite amazing to this old puppy who cut his teeth on an all-discrete machine that ran 40 k instructions/sec. and had a Flexowriter for a console typewriter.
Point is that if the technology is cost-effective, it's now sometimes quite OK to use it.
Legacy hardware/software addict. Midnight hacker, 1960. Codepage 819 in DOS: Total Latin-1 compatibility (no boxes/lines
Hmmm... Wonder whother optical shops could use it as a quick check for surface quality?
Legacy hardware/software addict. Midnight hacker, 1960. Codepage 819 in DOS: Total Latin-1 compatibility (no boxes/lines
1) Scroll wheels predate commonplace mice; Tektronix CRT terminals (big, hi-res monochrome screens, used for CAD, some with direct-view storage tubes) had two finger-operated scroll wheels near their keyboards, mounted at 90 degrees, one for X, the other for Y. Being able to move the cursor on only one axis at a time is extremely desirable for CAD. (The scroll wheels didn't have the detents many mice have; they were smooth, I'm just about positive.)
=====
2) The conventional mouse mechanism is very much like a basic mechanism occasionally found in mechanical analog computers; almost sure it's called a Ventola integrator.
Think of a drive roller under the ball, another idler roller above it with gearing, etc. to keep its spin axis parallel to the roller below. Making the drive roller turn on its spin axis rotates the mouse ball (made of hardened steel; no rubber). The spin axis of the drive roller can be positioned through 360 degrees, so the coupling between the drive roller spin input and the output rollers can be sine/cosine functions of the drive roller spin input. It could be used in a Fourier analyzer, although as described, it can't be especially accurate. See also Henrici harmonic analyzers; fairly sure these were mechanical analog Fourier analyzers (used for tidal curve analysis, among other things.)
=
=
Nicholas Bodley
nbodley@alumni_dot_princeton.edu (Permanent e-ddress)(Obvious anti-spam stuff in it)
Desperately wanted: Mechanical schematic of the Navy Mk1A computer (or any complex mechanical analog computer!).
Legacy hardware/software addict. Midnight hacker, 1960. Codepage 819 in DOS: Total Latin-1 compatibility (no boxes/lines
Hehe New technology my ass... I remeber using an optical mouse on a mac back in 1985. and the design??? can we say iMac like? Oh well it seems that Microsoft has to jump on the bandwagon with everything ..
> a digital signal processor (DSP) translates changes between the images into on-screen movements
Question is, where is the processing done? If in the mouse, that may help explain the price. But my guess is that some processing will be done by the computer its attached to. After all, what if a service pack^H^Hbugfix is needed for it?
This may be the first mouse to require a pentium to use.
Todd
Well, I've had a bunch of mice in the past, and the best have been the Logitechs (the only reason I got a new one is because I like the new shape of the MouseMan 3's, plus I needed a PS/2 port mouse)...
But, my ORIGINAL (as in, the "green button" mouse from 1985) Microsoft Mouse is still alive and well, running on my (just as old) Leading Edge 8088 PC Clone (acts as a terminal.) And, when I had the "dove-bar" mouse, it worked perfectly fine for at least 2 years, including after I took it apart and put it back together for an engineering class project.
In short, while I'm not a big fan of the DESIGN of MS Mice (I do like the MS Nat Elite keyboard), they work perfectly fine.
In fact, based on the look of the new one, if I can find it cheap (read: OEM pricing) I'll probably pick one up just out of curiosity.
Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com."
The purpose of that site was not known.
Actually, I use a different natural keyboard (can't remember maker, I just went through all the natural keyboards and found the most comfortable), and a standard 3-button cheap mouse on one computer. On the other I have a standard keyboard (kids keyboard, no windows-key) and a logitech cordless mouse. I can say one thing for certain, I am never buying another mouse with a cord. And the nice thing about the mouse is that it's radio based, and the base doesn't have to be too near the mouse, and can be at a different level (mine sits on a shelf to the side and down).
Personally, I've never minded cleaning my mouse about once a year, and I use an ergonomic mouse-pad which I found to have the perfect surface for ball mice.
I will concede, I use a MS Sidewinder pro, best joystick I have ever had, and I have a shelf full of joysticks I've tried (If it wasn't so expensive, I'd swap it with a force-feedback version).
-- Keith Moore
This sig is the express property of someone.
Funny, but I was under the impression that was exactly how my Logitech TrackMan Marble worked. Same principal at least.
The ball is patterned (default is a spotted ball), and the sensor tracks the shifting pattern as it moves. Best trackball I've ever used; can't stand mice for long-term activity.
They both still need a surface though; should have used accelerometers instead.
--The more you know, the less you know.
This is an actual alert to IBM Field Engineers that went out to all IBM Branch Offices. The person who wrote it was very serious. The rest of us may find it rather funny... Abstract: Mouse Balls Available as FRU (Field Replacement Unit)
Mouse balls are now availabe as FRU. Therefore, if a mouse fails to operate or should it perform erratically, it may need a ball replacement. Because of the delicate nature of this procedure, replacement of mouse balls should only be attempted by properly trained personnel.
Before proceeding, determine the type of mouse balls by examining the underside of the mouse. Domestic balls will be larger and harder than foreign balls. Ball removal procedures differ depending upon the manufacturer of the mouse. Foreign balls can be replaced using the pop-off method. Domestic balls are replaced using the twist-off method. Mouse balls are not usually static sensitive. However, excessive handling can result in sudden discharge. Upon completion of ball replacement, the mouse may be used immediately.
It is recommended that each replacer have a pair of spare balls for maintaining optimum customer satisfaction, and that any customer missing his balls should suspect local personnel of removing these necessary items.
Mike
--
Mike
--
"Wi nøt trei a høliday in Sweden this yër?"
Mike
--
Mike
--
"Wi nøt trei a høliday in Sweden this yër?"
We said it in the mouse survey forum, and I'll say it again....You cannot beat the action of the Honeywell mouse. They are friggin indestructible...
e to the i pi equals negative one
... which would KILL any compatibility with Linux, and any chance of me purchasing the unit. (Ditto if it's only offered in a USB model.)
:)
Otherwise, I love the idea. I love the feel of my Microsoft Mouse and would not want to use anything different. At the same time, I'm in a dorm and my desk/mouse pad tend to get VERY dirty. I was thinking about getting a Mouse Systems optical mouse, but I'd rather stick with a Microsoft mouse.
Disclaimer: just because I like the Microsoft Mouse doesn't mean I'm a fan of Microsoft operating systems...
Ryan
Microsoft doesn't make their mice or joysticks...they subcontract them out to Logitech or Kensington...can't remember which...that is why they are so good.
JoeLinux
...to understand recursion, you must first understand recursion.
Sun optical mice needed a special cross-hatched mousepad to work. The new MS mouse claims to be able to use any surface at all, your knee included.
Kaa
Kaa
Kaa's Law: In any sufficiently large group of people most are idiots.
I wish this was a joke. it seems like a major waste of hardware. I really like the roller on the top of the mouse that MS gave us, but I dont think this mouse was a good idea. Plus, it seems they are trying to play off the iMac style, not my personal favorite.
Easy solution for this -- use right hand on trackball, firing and aiming, and map left hand on exfs or some other combo of keys to do your movements... I've found this the very BEST way to play Q2, mouse or trackball.... railgun right up the nose every time!
Karnal
I was at Comdex Monday morning and I could swear that Bill said the thing was made from titanium. I can't imagine that a titanium mouse could cost $75, but I would buy one if it did.
"...and features a glowing red underside and taillight."
That's what I need, more LEDs to light up my room at night.
-Ralph Wiggam
I have only used microsoft mice on my primary machines, and nothing but flawless performance from them, although the mice and software tend to get dirty over time.
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
At least it is possible to get the old version with the optical sensor for aobut $55. I won't pay $75 for some stupid looking contraption.
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
I still have a DECstation 3100, and I love that hockey-puck mouse. Now the vt220 keyboards, those I can't stand.
Anyone know of a way to hookup those old DEC mice to a pc serial port? (from what I understand, the same Zilog serial controller takes care of kbd, mouse, and both serial ports on the DECstation 3100)
-- "the disks just store your lives" - Hate Dept. "Technical Difficulties"
I also have to admit a secret affinity for MS hardware, except for nagging inconsistency. They get you hooked, and then they start cutting costs.
I love my MS Natural Keyboard (tm), but if I want a new one, I can forget about it. The only one now is the MSNK "Elite", which is a downsized version with maddeningly small arrows and F-keys.
Remember when MS mice first came out? The nice, solid, smooth, white plastic? After a while, they switch to this light, fraile, bumpy, greyish plastic. Then they do it with the next generation of mouse. They did it with the Intellimouse wheel just a couple of months ago.
Their software stinks, but the hardware is pretty nice when it first comes out.
I was in PC World the other day, and started playing with one of those red marble things from Logitech. It was on a tilt.. I spun it.. it shot out and started bouncing down the aisle. =)
only one thought came to mind:
:)
Anyone want a nightlight for 75$
ClarkBar
With the Microsoft Mouse 2.x, anyway, (the standard two-button variety) there were two different versions - the retail packaged version, which had a smooth white shell, and the OEM version (For Distribution With New Hardware Only) which had a textured grayish shell. The OEM mice are, in my experience, cheaply constructed and prone to failure. They're the same shape, but other than that, the mechanisms, the switches, the cable and connector, the internal construction, are all totally different.
The story has now made it to Excite and makes refrence to /. as well. The link may be stale later but you should be able to find the page easily enough.
Kithran
Optical mice? They can't take away our mouse pads!!! Having a signature mousepad reflects the very personality of the user. Me, I have an oval mouse pad that I got in the mail FREE. It's not real neat looking but it's lasted over a year and still works great. No matter how much mileage it gets, it never seems to wear out. If they get rid of mouse pads, can the keyboard skins (which keep spilled soda from crapping up the keys) be far behind? One has to wonder.
Saying it isn't new because it uses an optical device to detect shifts in position. That's like saying the dvd is the same as a cd, for they both use laser. Doh.
What I read from the article is that MS basicly points a camera down and compares the images seen (thus the taillight: no light=no image), extrapolating a shift in position. The older optical mouses use a grid refence, and counts the lines/dots passed (much like the marble trackballs from logitech).
If it's really an inprovement has to be seen, but it is an innovation. It seems to me this is mostly MS hassling.
the pun is mightier than the sword
In my experience, and from what I've heard, unplugging anything from the PS/2 port while the computer is running will freeze the computer half the time. Apparantly it can even cause permanant damage in some cases. I don't know if the same is true of USB ports, of course. If it is, then I have to agree with you. If not, well, there's one good reason to go with a USB mouse instead of a PS/2 one.
Ah, still have mine, haven't EVER cleaned the underside of it, it's about 6 years old at this point. Great mouse. Wish they'd make more ergo ones with the same technology underneath now!
LED, not laser, AFAIK. Lasers, especially in the 80s, would be too expensive and big. So you can continue staring into the little red light as long as you want. Although, maybe tricking M$ users into blindness wouldn't be a bad idea...
On a whim, I tried installing it on my mom's computer. Same thing: no luck. The next day I took the mouse to work with me. Once again, no luck. By this time, I was getting a little annoyed. I stole another IntelliMouse from off one of my fellow employees' desks, plugged it into my computer, and it worked perfectly the first time. Well, this had gone too far. I pulled out my trusty Leatherman, opened up my IntelliMouse, and lo and behold...
On the inside of the casing there's a small circuit board with a tiny female connector on it. There's a bundle of wires coming from the front part of the mouse with a male connector on the end. It was disconnected. I plugged the thing in, put the mouse back together, and it worked. Now why in the world couldn't they just solder the silly wires to the circuit board? I have no clue.
Ever since then, however, the mouse has been great, and I couldn't be more pleased.
--
Wonko the Sane
Mouse Systems has a PS/2 compatible optical mouse that's only US $30. Sure it needs the special mouse pad, but that's included. It appears that they also have one coming soon that has a `scroll wheel' with no moving parts AND a third button. I'd say that this is a much better alternative if you're looking for a mouse for the really long term.
--
This is why I don't post much.
Most of these advanced mice, like the intellimouse and the top of the line wheeled mouse from Logitech are over engineered so that your right hand grips them perfectly. The mouse and your hand just seem to float together. However, if you are like me, Left handed, grabbing one of these wonderful new advanced mice feels like using one of those iMac Hockey-puck mice... Wrong.
The downside of this is simple. I am stuck using an older design of a mouse that feels comfortable, rather than the latest version of a mouse designed to fit my hand. What I don't understand is why you can't get a left-handed version of the top-end version of either the Microsoft Intellimouse or what ever the equivalent mouse is from Logitech. After all, don't Lefties make up 1/5 to 1/6 of the population? Heck, I would gladly pay more for a mouse that was comfortable...
The main reason I want one of those new mice with multiple buttons and wheels is simple: Games. The more inputs I have to bind actions to, the better. And more than anything else, gaming requires that you have nice comfortable inputs that you can forget about and let become part of your hand. You try deathmatching with an uncomfortable mouse and tell me how you like it...
Finally, I have been told before that yes, I could order a left-handed version of the Logitech top of the line mouse... but damned if I can find a way to do it online. I suspect that I am screwed. Anyone know if Microsoft or Logitech actually make a left-handed version for us weird folks out here?
Lotek---
This is my first post, but just to let you know, in 87 or 88 i had a single button optical mouse for the Apple IIC made by A+. The mouse pretty much sucked though, as you had to keep figerprints off the reflective mouse pad......... .02
just my
--direwoplh
- It does not use the cpu to do its processing. Since there will be ps2 versions of the mouse, and the ps2 bus does NOT have nearly enough bandwidth to offload processing to the cpu, I can't see how it would work.
- It does not work like the sun mice. It takes a monochrome image of the surface beneath the mouse 1500 times a second using a specialized chip inside. It compares each new image with the previous image to determine how much translation has occured, and in which direction. I've used it on tables, walls, my shirt, the floor... it works as advertised.
- There will be two versions of the mouse... the 'Intellimouse Explorer', which will have a new shape and two extra thumb buttons, and a converted Intellimouse with the old shape and buttons. The one with only 2 buttons + wheel will only cost $60, the one with the new shape and buttons will cost $75.
Personally, I have a real problem with constantly having to dig crud outta my mouse... I'm hopping on the bandwagon. I'm not a MS lover, but I'm not gonna pass up a good thing just because they make it."I will trust Google to 'do no evil' until the founders no longer run it." Hello Alphabet.
A mouse with its balls cut off means we now have...
Microsoft Eunuchs!
Do you even need a touchpad driver? I got some no-name keyboard with touchpad (it has a brand name, but I've never heard of it and don't remember it offhand). The keyboard came with a driver CD which I haven't bothered to remove from the shrinkwrap; there was no documentation telling the software compatibility on the touchpad. The mouse section (two cables; one keyboard, one mouse) was serial, but came with a PS/2 adapter. When I plugged it in and installed Linux (RH 5.2), it found a PS/2 mouse and asked me if I wanted 3-button emulation. It just worked. I think that, to Linux, a PS/2 mouse is a PS/2 mouse is a PS/2 mouse. I believe that some Linux doc noted that, even if you have an MS mouse attached to a PS/2 port via an adapter, just call it a PS/2 mouse (rather than an MS mouse) and Linux will pick it up.
--The basis of all love is respect
Microsoft is planning a larger version, for people with larger hands. It will make "beep...beep" noises when you are moving it backwards ;^>
--The basis of all love is respect
If this MS Optical Mouse stuff takes off, then we'll have a large population of ball-less mice. We've been successful at keeping that population down for now, and just sticking with the male mice. But now...can anybody say "tribble"?
It is now time to segregate the hardware closets...
--The basis of all love is respect
For those not versed in the hardware arts, accelerometers detect acceleration (big surprise!) such as G-forces. Given acceleration, you can calculate velocity, assuming a starting velocity. It's a fairly safe assumption that a mouse is at rest when it boots, but not always a given. For reference, most mice detect position or velocity, either by passing over optical grids, or measuring the travel of a wheel.
The big problem with figuring out mouse motion via accelerometers is that it takes perfect calibration. A decalibrated accelerometer mouse would think that it is still moving when you have stopped it, and would result in pointer creep.
Two other problems exist. First off, an accelerometer mouse would work poorly in an accelerating environment. You would never see such a mouse in a maritime environment, for instance. It might also do badly in an enviroment prone to low-level seismic events. Can anyone speak as to how this would work in Silicon Valley?
Finally, this would require a larger mousing surface. Many of us need more "travel" in our mice than the regular mousing surface provides. Thus, we have become quite proficient at the "push, lift, retract" version of mousing (move your mouse around the screen and see if you do it--it comes so naturally that some people don't know they do it). This works because you don't move the ball while moving the mouse through the air. With an accelerometer, the mouse would register motion when off the pad, so the "push, lift, retract" method would result in a useless pointer jiggle.
--The basis of all love is respect
While they don't realize it, MS marketing is telling us that they have pushed the state of the art by a few microns (if that). Even I will grant them that.
Remember this. Most marketing firms that use this term don't understand it, and are thus tricked into telling the truth.
--The basis of all love is respect
So you don't but anything with a linux driver included then?
Hmm that'll limit your choice of
mice
graphics cards
network cards.
Damnit quit bitching and write your own driver
I'm waiting (maybe I shouldn't wait, maybe I should just ACT) for some group of left-handed people to take action against these companies that claim their mouse is "ergonomic" yet only produce a right-handed version. That sounds to me like the opposite of ergonomic. It would be okay to say "Ergonomic if you are right handed, otherwise profoundly NON ergonomic" but that isn't a very slick sales slogan.
Probably a big reason why I like my Kensington Mouse-In-A-Box is that it's perfectly symmetrical (and Kensington always has seemed to make a good product- their trackball is awesome). The Mouse-In-A-Box (skip the new "wheel version" of course) has the buttons close enough to permit nice third-button chording for those important third-button actions (i.e. essential when using Xfig) I'm tired of those ugly mice that look like a foot with the buttons right-hand-only. I distinctly remember some sort of a brain-shift occuring when I first started mousing only with the left hand.
Then again, I've never, ever heard a left handed person who felt s/he felt it was a disability so maybe we don't need "protection." Sure would be fun to take down a few companies with false claims of "ergonomic" though.
Back when I was more of a fanatic than I am these days I used to open the mouse and cut tracks and add jumper wires to reverse the buttons in hardware. A few times I've even sold those modified mice used to other people. Of course they turned out to be right handed people. My comment was "deal with it, dude."
Their "j-mouse" is OK - probably the only MS product I've ever :o)
:o) (and it was around the same price as
had that worked properly
I've had optical mice before that worked OK - a bitch to
use without the pad though
listed above - $99 Cdn - so I guess they're not too expensive..)
I buy logitic, why?... cheap, durable, compatable. :)
(no I dont work for logitec
- about me
With the exception of the Microsoft Actimates (which any normal person could easily identify as satanistic worshipping devices [specifically referring to the teletubbies series]), the entire Microsoft Hardware line is of exceptional quality. I'd be interrested in taking a look at their budget and seeing how much money goes into this division.
I agree with all previous posts, the quality of mice produced is exceptional. I use an intellimouse at home and an intellimouse pro at school. Both are incredibly comfortable to use.
Getting back to the new technology Microsoft is putting out, I have to rant against all these other "look, I can design a hardware peripheral too!" companies.
Most products on the market today are simple regurgitations of old products. The Microsoft Natural Keyboard was one of the original ergonomic keyboards. At last count, I could identify fifty different companies with their own "unique ergonomic keyboard" either varying from the original model only enough to avoid a patent infringement, or a serious warp to make it look original and render their aim for an ergonomic keyboard useless.
I started getting early signs of CTS this november. I recieved a Microsoft Natural Keyboard Elite for christmas, while I had to learn to type all over again, I wouldn't go back. I still have to work out my posture but I've noticed a serious improvement. Despite what anybody else says, it isn't just a media thing.
I have an acquaintance I sometimes hesitate to call my friend. He's rather odd, but knowledgeable. A hardcore gamer, he followed the début of the force feedback technology. Granted, Microsoft bought the technology from another company, however when you consider how far it was from being realized and implemented, what Microsoft did for the technology was pretty impressive. The fact that there was a big name backing the technology caused many software developers to add FF support to their game.
Any Microsoft Critic would think that the Microsoft Phone is a "Big Brother" scenario all over again. Still, nobody thought of it before and it's a really practical use of integrating common technology with the computer in order to get more from it.
One thing is for certain, in the next few years we'll notice a lot more new hardware on the market. If a company like Microsoft can raise the quality expectations of hardware manufacturers, so much the better.
It really frustrates me when microsoft does this. I just want to scream "It's not new! It't not an innovation! I was invented by someone else (20 some) years ago!!
I keep seeing people say how their Intellimouse doesn't work in Linux well mine works fine. Just go grab the software from here it works great.
http://solaris1.mysolution.com/~jcatki/imwheel/
Good god, guys... This thing looks cool!
I appreciate that the vast majority of readers here believe Microsoft to be the devil, but for crying out loud, put down you banner for a second and look at the tech. This is really an honest to goodness new mouse. As an avid computer user and a raving Quake player, any advancement in mouse technology is good, Microsoft or not. I want to find out how to get a demo of one of these, this looks hot. I'm buying one, probably two as soon as they're available.
Seriously, the days of the mouse device are numbered. I deduce this from the fact that the only mouse I have seen used in Star Trek was the one Scotty tried to talk to in one of the movies.
Are there any better interface techniques on the horizon? Perhaps using this technology with one of those little cameras on top of the monitor to track eyeball position and shift focus to whatever you are looking at, for example? Along with two stage select buttons like some cameras give you with the good/bad warning on light touch and shutter release on heavy touch? (Light touch displays pointer, heavy touch gives "mouse click"...)
The only Microsoft peripheral I have owned was a Microsoft mouse, (the 2-button, non-optical one). I found its performance to be lacking; after only a couple months of use I had difficulty getting the left mouse button to register. Sometimes I would have to click three or four times for it to work. Eventually I gave up and got a MouseSystems optical mouse instead, and I have been very happy with its performance since.
All surfaces? I'd really like to see it work on a mirror.. if it tracks the change in an image, and it sits on a mirror, there wouldn't be much change in the image at all, would it?
Anyone care to comment?
Heheh.. that's what I thought too... sorry didn't see your post before I posted my own :)
I read that the prototype has 1.5MIPS, but that Microsoft(May $100B-Bill die a horrible, painfull death, preferably as the result as a Windows crash)is aiming for 12MIPS for reliable reliability.
I had an old mac that was the same way, I'm fairly sure. optical, reflective pad. Been a long time, but I know for sure at least that the darn thing didn't have a ball
I have seen Sun Sparc 5 optical mice work with ordinary mouse pads.
Bill is acting like he is the herald of new technology here. What is up with his gig? He didn't invent this technology, he only modified what I see on our Sun Sparcs. If what the guy said earlier about Xerox is true, he didn't introduce anything new at all!! I really would like to see what kind of precision you get out of that sucker when you send it across a wooden table.
On his hardware, yeah, he's got some great stuff. On the other hand, I have accounts from people who installed MS joystick drivers on their pcs and their gamepads quit working! One of them broke down and bought a MS gamepad and it worked like a champ. I welcome some input on this.
Linus says we are gonna kick your ass. Bill acts like the computer god of everybody. When do the computer users get software that works? I don't care if Windows sucks, microsoft sucks, or any of that. I hate the idea of one person telling us what the future of the computer industry is. I believe computers are different from any other commodity in the world. No one person should regulate or control it.
Madhatter --It's no wonderland out there.
You know it man, you know it. I wonder how long that joker will last too.
Madhatter --It's no wonderland out there.
Get your head out of your ass and look at what I'm talking about.
I didn't say he does everything in the company. He acts like he is The Man when it comes to technology. Everytime he speaks he is talking about the future of computing or he is acting like his software is the "next big thing." He is trying to be some computer saint or something.
And this discussion does concern Bill Gates.
Madhatter --It's no wonderland out there.
I have yet to have a Micro$oft mouse last more than 6 months on me. After 6 months (even with careful cleaning) they always start mistracking. My collegues keep wondering what that swearing and banging is when I start banging the broken mouse against the desk in frustration. I have yet to have an optical mouse die on me either. I use an old Mouse Systems 3-button optical mouse and have never had a problem (except that the pads on the bottom are wearing out).
-Aaron
This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13. Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal.
I had one for my Apple //c back in the late eighties. I'm trying to think of who the manufacturer was (I want to say Mouse Systems, but for some reason I'm not convinced.) It was a neat little toy, but of course was constrained to the cross-hatched metallic pad that all of the other "optical" mice of the day were.
Woe be to all of us if we were to go back to the days not-too-long-ago where you could fit a suite of office applications on a single 5-1/4" floppy!
We're going down, in a spiral to the ground
Ever go to Radio Shack and notice the Casio calculators that have the Radio Shack logo on them? Just like the trend in cars for the last 10+ years... Chevy Nova = Toyota Corolla, Isuzu Rodeo = Honda Passport, never mind the Chevy/GMC thing... you get the point.
Microsoft has demonstrated a great appreciation for the talent of selling the intangible. That's what Mr. Gates really wants -- to sell nothing and get all your money for it. Owning manufacturing plants & their related trappings is risky and cuts into profits. "What if..?" this, "what if..?" that. Why bother?
In a classic example, 3Com does the Palm Pilot, and MS responds with... "nothing." MS lets a handful of other companies take the risk of actually competing with 3Com, while they simply re-tooled an existing OS that can be re-tasked (again) if it fails to meet sales expectations. MS has already sold WinCE licenses to the companies making the devices, so are they going to worry quite as much if sales are slow? (Yes, I know they'll get excited sooner or later...)
Back on the real topic, I like the concept of a wheel mouse. I have one, it just happens to be made by Logitech. Geez, it was less than half the price, and I like the shape a lot better. Great concept, though, and it appears to be hardware compatible (I use MS Intellipoint with another Logitech wheelmouse under NT at work. Logitech has no NT wheel drivers for some reason...)
The end point is this:
In other news... What in the world is with this MS cordless phone, anyway? Right when they're supposed to be pushing USB, they come out with a serial peripheral?!?! What are these people smoking? In order to get full functionality, I have to leave my PC on 24 / 7? What do they think I'm smoking??
Ah, that's enough ranting for one night.
"...America's great minds of today, teaching America's great minds of tomorrow. Poor bastards." -- A Beautiful Min
I remember back when I was really young using a mouse on my IBM. My parents kept trying to stop me from looking directly into that red laser cuz I thought it looked pretty neat.
I'd like to say that I had it back in the mid-80's...Might have been closer to the late 80's. But it worked with good ol' MS-DOS and stuff.
We actually still have several optical mice in the sunsparc lab here at school, but what impresses me with the Microsoft one is the need to not need that pad...I have no room on my desk here for a mouse pad, so I just use the desk itself. It'll be nice when, in several years when they drop in price to like $10, I get one and know I'm not destroying it by using it on the desk.
What I'll miss the most are all the pranks I played in high school where I'd steal all of the balls out of the mice. They're just ruining all of our fun!
Well,
It seems Microsoft has done a nice job with yheir optical mousethingy. But one problem remains, it is still a mouse. It still needs deskspace and a free arm to operate it.
Now underneath my keyboard lies a small pad with the word `glidepoint' on it. It has been worn down by years of continuous use, but it still funcitons like the day I got it (and even then it had been used as a demonstration model for moere than a year...). It is in fact onw of those trackpad/glidepad/whateverpad things which correlate pointer movement with the movement of a finger over the surface. It seems to be rather RSI-free, it works like a charm, and it takes up only 9 square inch of deskspace to operate. If you want my humble opinion on the non-plus-ultra of mouse-alternatives, this is it. Next step: make my whole desk movement-sensitive.
--frank[at]unternet.org
I've tried both Logitech and Microsoft mice (albeit it's been a long time sinse I've owned a Logitech, 4 yrs or so). I've owned a Microsoft mouse for about a year now and I must say that I've never used a mouse that has been smoother, or more comfortable than this one. Not to mention the fact that in the year that I've owned it, I've only had to clean it twice. The Logitech mouse I owned had to be cleaned like twice a month. I got so fed up with that mouse getting stuck I threw it out and bought a new one. Maybe Logitech has gotten better. Maybe the mouse I had was just a bad one. Maybe the mouse pad I'm using now is better than the one I used back then...I don't know. All I know is that the MS mouse I'm using now is perfect, and I only paid eight bucks for it!
-
It is possible for your mind to be so open that your brain falls out.
?
Cheers
Does it work?
Cheers
I don't care if it needs a special pad or not.
I had an opti mouse on my old Amiga, and I could draw with that thing as well as I can with a Wacom pad. I'll probably buy one of these just out of nostalgia for the glories of optical mousehood.
I recently got a Logitech Cordless Wheel Mouse and I love it. I could never go back to tugging on a mouse cord. Plus, it is a nice conversation piece.
I have a hard time calling a corded mouse "innovative". Cordless is a bigger innovation than optical.
Last, I really doubt it will work on any surface. If the surface has *no* variations I don't see how they can use optical sensors to detect movement.
I've got a Logitech Cordless Wheel Mouse, and they do have drivers for the wheel. The mouse came with diskettes in the box. I believe they also have drivers on their web site.
With all the image processing and the red light
it's most likely not feasable to battery operate
it. And you're right, the Logitech cordless wheel
mouse rules supreme (after some modifications).
No mousepad? But I like the Mickey Mouse
picture under my mouse!
In otherwords, I really don't give a
flying about
a new toy from M$. I believe we have
saturated our ideas for the time being
and can't think of something new.
I take that back.. "I believe M$ has
saturated their ideas and can't think
of something new". Who am I kidding, they
never did invent anything. They are just
good at marketing others ideas.
And I have been to their presentations.
The ARE good marketers!
Steven Rostedt
-- Nevermind
1500 pics/sec, so that means that there's a fair amount of processing power IN the mouse. So, if it has a track record like any standard processor driven by 'instructions' from Microsloth, we'll now have to reboot our mice occasionally :)
I wouldn't mind so much that M$ has a new product, if they'd just fix the old ones. I mean, really, does the world need another mouse?
-This sig intentionally left blank
Optical mice were developed at Xerox (PARC maybe?) in the dark ages (before TCP/IP, somewhere around the late 70s) and used a set of three LED receivers to determine which axis movement occured on. I use to run them over my jeans, plaid shirts, and fake wood-grained desktops with no problems. We made mouse pads by laminating patterns we'd print on a standard laser printer.
Sun used to ship optical mice (from Mouse House or Mouse Systems) that used two wavelengths of LED for horizontal and vertical movement detection. Those mice required a special mirror-like aluminum pad with stripes that matched the LED's colors.
Sun's mice were shipped long after Xerox had a vastly superior and much simpler product; Xerox could have owned the mouse market along with everything else if they'ed had their act together.
I wouldn't be surprised if there was optical mouse development prior to Xerox; many people were working in the area at the time.
You can't fight in here - this is the war room!
Hmm, M$ makes this out to be some real inovative technology, hmm, just like the one hooked up to my Mac Plus (1986 or so). I dunno, give go a good ole 3 button mouseman any day, for gaming or surfing nothing beats it