BellSouth denies ADSL for Linux users

wahhh by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 07:15 · Score: 0

just put winblows on your bawx just to make the guy happy, and then when he leaves put your fav flav of *nix back on it. problem solved.

hoo-ahh.

Re:wahhh by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 10:34 · Score: 0

So far I have easily managed without MS Windows. This is what a Linux-only user, like myself, will have to go through to get DSL:
* Run back-and-forth to the store and buy Windows 98 (Time wasted 40 minutes.)
* Write a check for $100 to cover a Windows license. (Time to earn this amount is 4 hours -- before taxes.)
* Back-up everything in my disk before you install Windows. (Time wasted 1 hour.)
* Verify that backups are retrievable and correct. (Time wasted 10 minutes.)
* I have heard from /. that the easiest way to install Windows is "first install windows then Linux." So, I change the partitions and leave only one big partition for Windows. (Time wasted, 1 sec using dd.)
* Read the installation instructions on the package. (Time wasted 20 minutes, I assume.)
* Then I install Windows. (Time wasted 15 minutes, I assume)
* While waiting for BellSouth to arrive, I also install Linux on the same disk -- there is no telling if they show-up when promised. (Time wasted 30 minutes.)
* BellSouth arrives and installs the DSL. Before I re-install linux on darks, I must do (and verify) an incremental back-up on for all new files. (Time wasted 15 minutes.)
* Re-install everything, do partitions, then retrieve the full back-up and the incremental. (Time wasted 1.5 hour).
That is 8.5 hours of extra work, if no unexpected problems arise.
Re:wahhh by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 11:52 · Score: 0

Exactly..And with linux ajusting your mac address if needed is a snap..

Screw those crap 3com cards there using just borrow the mac address for your favorite DEC tulip card.... heh heh
Re:wahhh by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-05 04:30 · Score: 0

> c:\windows\win386.exe file on the HD and win95 will be happy.

Cool. I have a free WinNT CD-ROM (MS sent it too me!) which also has the upgrade version of Win95 on it, and that works upgrading from WinNT on the same CD.
Re:wahhh by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-05 04:31 · Score: 0

You could just install FVWM'95 (or maybe QVWM-- I hear that's more convincing) for a while. They'll never know the diff.
Re:wahhh by MikeTurk · 1999-06-02 11:14 · Score: 1

Then I install Windows. (Time wasted 15 minutes, I assume)

Actually, if you buy the upgrade, all you get is a non-bootable CD. You have to have a boot floppy with DOS drivers for your CD-ROM drive, MSCDEX, FDISK, and format on it. You have to manually FDISK, reboot, and format the hard drive. (Remember, this is without documentation. That four-color glossy that comes with Win98 is pretty worthless.) Then you have to boot off that floppy after having figured out the command syntax for your CD-ROM driver (and reacquainting yourself with DEVICE= in CONFIG.SYS) and the syntax for MSCDEX. Finally, you have to change to [CD-ROM Drive]:\win98 and type `setup'. You also must have copies of install floppies for Win95 or Win 3.x -- Setup prompts for them and will not continue without them. Then you get to answer a few questions (and type in your CD Key -- 25 alphanumerics!) and wait for an hour or so. After a couple of reboots, you get to the 640x480 desktop and get to deal with the beauty that is the Display control panel and attempt to install usable drivers for your video card.

All told, this takes about two hours. If you buy the Full version of Win98, you get a boot floppy with generic CD-ROM drivers, but still no instructions on FDISK or FORMAT. And people say Linux is too difficult to install.

Mike
--

--
Mike
--
"Wi nøt trei a høliday in Sweden this yër?"
Re:wahhh by pgroebner · 1999-06-02 23:52 · Score: 1

When I work on a win95 box for friends and relatives I always ask for their emergency boot disk. If they don't have one I make a bootable disk with the cdrom drivers and mscdex on it ready to go if they should ever need it. Needless to say I have one of these for every dos box at home, M$, linux or whatnot. Sometimes it is useful to boot up msdos 6.22 once in a while. BTW if you have a upgrade win95 cdrom, you don't need win3.1 disks to install it. just create a c:\windows\win386.exe file on the HD and win95 will be happy.

Bellsouth Gave it to me and I have linux by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 07:17 · Score: 0

However I had to play with the system...the tech dude came and we had him install it in an NT box..then when he left I took the nic out and out it in a Linux machine. Now it works fine and I IPMasq about 5 machines at home....

Re:Bellsouth Gave it to me and I have linux by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 11:10 · Score: 0

You shouldn't have to lie. Bell Atlantic doesn't care what kind of phone I have. My ISP only supports (officially) Windows 95 and MAC, but they don't actually care what OS I use.
Re:Bellsouth Gave it to me and I have linux by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 12:08 · Score: 0

Your are so smart. Whose going to know waht os you use. I have similar plans.
Re:Bellsouth Gave it to me and I have linux by Draco · 1999-06-02 12:01 · Score: 1

I think that the idea, at least for me, is that we shouldn't have to lie about how we're going to be using their service.

Fooling them would be easy.... no problem.. but i refuse to do that. I want to stand up and say, "I'm a linux user, and I don't need to further line Bill Gates' pockets to get decent bandwidth."

As much as I may want the service, I am unwilling to sacrifice my principles to get it.
Re:Bellsouth Gave it to me and I have linux by Delta-9 · 1999-06-02 10:06 · Score: 1

This sounds like what my friend in Los Angeles did with his cable modem. His cable provider (MediaOne) did not "support" linux as an operating system (or more than one computer accessing the connection for that matter). So he had his win9X/NT machine sitting there with the NIC when the tech from the cable co. came to do the install. They got the connection going and the moment his door closed he installed the NIC into a multi-homed router box and now has 3 or 4 machines running off that one cable modem connection.

IMHO, I don't see that much need to get upset over this. You just need to practice your ability to tell a little white lie. I think that any user that can get linux working for his/her needs would be able to get a cable modem/xDSL connection running as well.

Bell's not in a good barganing position right now by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 07:17 · Score: 0

What with cable breathing down their necks, which by the way appeals to the same market segment they're shooting for, you'd think they'd be courting the Linux users, most of whom are power users and generally more inclined to run something like DSL.

DSL's not a whole lot different from a leased line. Wonder if frame relay or static leased have dropped in price at all since DSL and cable modems came along. Might be a good way to avoid all the telco bullshit.

What does a DSL install have to do with the OS? by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 07:17 · Score: 0

I don't know about other ISPs and providers, but when Covad installed my DSL line they didn't even look at my machines. Plugged in the FlowPoint router, made sure it could connect to the CO, and that was it. I'm the one that actually plugged my PCs into the router and then set up all of the IP configurations. Maybe a simple modem needs more OS specific configuration in order to get it to connect?

I don't think the guy who installed my DSL router would have been able to configure Windows let alone Linux. More of a telco guy than a network guy.

But, generally, this sucks...

-AC

Whoa by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 07:22 · Score: 0

Not just southern bell, check this link out.

http://www.gte.net/pands/residential/dsl.html#pc require

Re:Whoa by kabloie · 1999-06-02 07:54 · Score: 1

That's the most pitiful thing I've read today. 95/98 only; no NT support, even. God knows why not. And they only 'support' IE 4.0. Who cares!?

And to think some dork got paid 60k a year to come up with those specs.

Well, it looks as though many of their areas have real options from which to choose (DFW, LA). But Bloomington IL is screwed ;)

-kabloie
Re:Whoa by daviddennis · 1999-06-02 08:33 · Score: 1

Unfortunately, GTE has a monopoly of virtually the entire Los Angeles coast, and I just called them and verified that, in fact, GTE would not install a DSL connection of any kind without Windows. And they wouldn't refund your installation fee, either.

That's official policy, and the low-level service drone telling it to me had approximately the sympathy of a robot. About the best you could say is that he didn't scream at me or hang up; he just sat there in his stolid cold way saying that nobody at GTE would ever allow service to be installed for a Linux, SGI Irix or any other user. They do, however, expect Mac support "in a few months".

I don't know how these telcos survive. Looks like I need to use Covad (an alternative carrier that serves Los Angeles). I suggest that anyone else stuck in GTE land do the same if at all possible.

D

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Re:Whoa by Wntrmute · 1999-06-02 11:24 · Score: 1

They may have said that you can't run other OS's, but they can't stop you. I have a few friends that have GTE ADSL and they run FreeBSD and Linux servers off of their ADSL lines. When the GTE guy shows up for the install he didn't even touch the computers. Just set up the ADSL "modem" which essentially acts like a CSU/DSU does for a T1, made sure there was a connection from the ADSL modem out, and left it to them to wire up the Ethernet.

Comcast@Home tries to tell you that to have more than one computer connected to the net you have to purchace additional IP's at $6.95 / month. Uh, whatever... You can just set up NAT. Those product specs are aimed at the average Windoze luser. As long as whatever type of broadband accsess you get consists of a line in that hits some kinda "box" and sends ethernet out, you can run whatever you want behind it. There is no way for them to stop you, or even know what you are doing.

U never get a 1nd chance to make a 2st impression by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 07:34 · Score: 0

I agree with you full heartedly

Why they come! by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 07:46 · Score: 0

Why do Bell South have to come inside the house to
install? Can we get it(what is it?) from their store and install ourselves?

Re:Why they come! by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 08:38 · Score: 0

the guy who installed mine had to run another line from the jack to an rj-45 connector box

he also would have had to install the nic if it wasn't already there

he installed the software too - these guys are supposed to provide a turn-key install

What the hell is chicks-with-schnauzers? by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 07:53 · Score: 0

Fork over the URL please!

Re:What the hell is chicks-with-schnauzers? by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 09:00 · Score: 0

Eh? try a "man crontab" to learn the format of the
file (not that hard..takes 5 min max), then a
"crontab -e" to edit your personal crontab file
using your $EDITOR

Isnt PPPoE an open standard? by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 08:07 · Score: 0

It would take some work but I assume this could be supported under other OS's too no?

Bell South ADSL by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 08:17 · Score: 0

Why not just put Windows on your computer (or another computer) while you are getting your ADSL installed? Once the installers leave, you can configure Linux to use it. I know that idea may repulse some of you, but it is a means to an end.

Got ADSL through BellSouth and am running Linux by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 08:27 · Score: 0

I boot to 98 by default and the installer didn't need to know I have adsl. He installed it for 98, very courteously provided all dns info I needed and I configured Linux when he left. It rocks.

I understand the desire to leave MS completely, but I still run 98 for dvd and battlezone.

Re:Got ADSL through BellSouth and am running Linux by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 08:30 · Score: 0

guess i'll use preview from now on

"installer didn't need to know I have LINUX!!!"

Re:Not Surprising by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 08:35 · Score: 0

Low paying job. Really - who wants to go to work with the public all day every day doing the same old thing? It isn't that much better than running a cash register. And since it is a PSC regulated telco, they can't charge a gazillion dollars. So you get crappy service. Speed, quality, cost. Pick 2. :-/

Re:Linux Support by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 08:44 · Score: 0

That is not at all fair. Not only is Windows 99.9% of their user base, and therefore their ONLY criterion for hiring support people, but I am sure that the Windows users swallow anything that you tell them. They have been swallowing all of the crap that MS has told them for years. Windows users are unlikely to try anything on off the wall ports (anything other than http and mail). If their firewall isn't setup to allow, say telnet, 99% of Win users will never know the difference. 99% of Linux users will, causing the ISP alot more work. Something I am sure that they all need. All to support the .1% Linux users.

I am not saying I wouldn't like to see Linux (and BeOS and others) supported. But it is a business decision. Not a crusade.

SWBell ADSL (Houston) works great with Linux.... by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 08:44 · Score: 0

But I was willing to have them do the install on my Win95 machine. After they left, I just moved the modem to a Linux box that ipmasqs for my network.

The only thing the RBOCs care about is training their people. The guys that installed by DSL (admittedly very early in the roll out in Houston) barely knew how to install the service (straightforward DHCP network connection) for Win95/98. I bet a Mac would confuse them, and Linux? I was the first person to ever say the name to them. But they didn't care, as long as I handled it

Re:One potential motive. by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 08:59 · Score: 0

Not necessarily. About once a week, Roadrunner goes ballistic and I have to rerun dhcpcd and
rrlogin because their server resets itself. Same
deal after every cable outage (We've had some
rough tornado/storm activity)

Bell Atlantic User with similar problem. by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 09:00 · Score: 0

We have (had ?) the same problem with Bell Atlantic ADSL. All you have to do is get an old disk, put Win98 on it, let 'em install it. Take the disc out, replace it with a linux disk.

You have to configure Linux networking yourself, do this ...

ifconfig eth1 151.200.XXX.XXX netmask 255.255.255.0 broadcast 151.200.18.255
use your own IP address

route add default gw 151.200.XXX.XXX metric 1
the gateway is probably just your ip address with a "1", instead of "XXX" at the end.

ifconfig eth1 up

finally add your Domain Name Servers in /etc/resolv.conf

and your up and running!

Re:Bell Atlantic User with similar problem. by PhuCknuT · 1999-06-02 09:04 · Score: 1

I had no problem with bell atlantic, since they never even saw my pc. The hardware was delivered a few days before they were schdualed to do the install, they came and installed the splitter on the line, and when they came for the pc setup, I already had it up and running. The technician was happy to not have any work to do when he got here. =]

Re:One potential motive. by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 09:04 · Score: 0

There's no need to use crontab for this. The DHCP client will automatically try to renew the lease on the IP address well before it expires. I believe this is specified in the DHCP specification, and Linux, Windows, and Mac will all do this.

Periodically accessing the web will neither help you keep the address longer, nor prevent you from losing it if the ISP really wants it to change.

Re:your lucky...bandwidth drought here by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 09:04 · Score: 0

There are several possible reasons.

1) Tech support - if I call tech support and tell them that I am running Linux (or BeOS or ...), what will they do if they have no cognoscenti?

2) Login - Many cable modem (including the one I am using) and DSL ISPs use a special login protocol.

3) Installation - they can't afford to pay for installers who are knowledgable in many OS's.

really? this is new... by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 09:27 · Score: 0

They (TCI@HOME) didn't like Linux when I ordered my line, about a year ago. Something about people running a web server over their cable line. The installation guy had to set it up on a supported (Windows, Mac) system, or he wouldn't install the modem. I just let him hook it up to my desktop, then moved it to my hub when he left. My server masquerades to provide access for several other systems.

Principles by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 09:35 · Score: 0

It's the principle of the matter. Linux users having to go out of their way to get a service.
Windows users don't have to temporarily install Linux to get a service. Why should a double standard be tolerated?

BTW The ends justify the means is a rather poor philosophy.

Re:US West ADSL by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 09:39 · Score: 0

Wow, USWorst actually did something that is useful for someone. USWest actually is refusing to offer service of ADSL in the state of New Mexico for the reason that the FCC wants them to play fair with other companies and our money. If these guys don't get their act together soon, I will surely buy a new company when available and never buy an expensive service like ADSL from them.
-New Mexicans against USWEST

ADSL on BellSouth: Linux is a GO! by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 09:50 · Score: 0

I have ADSL from BellSloth... I've got it connected to my linux box in the basement. It works BEAUTIFULLY! The secret for an installation? Have a winblows box ready for them to install it into first. Then move the 3c905 card out of the winblows machine and into your linux box where it rightly belongs. Make sure you have a recent vortex driver and make sure you have a recent version of dhcpcd:

FWIW, I had a lot of trouble until I went to the latest version of dhcpcd... the one that shipped with redhat & 2.0 kernels caused me all kinds of grief... the 2.2-compatible version works flawlessly.

The only thing I hate is having to translate from "OK, click on start, run, type winipcfg, hit enter, click on release all then renew all" to kill -HUP `cat /var/run/dhcpcd.pid` (or whatever) and back. It is ultra gayness realized. Their remedy for everything is to unplug the box from everything for 45 seconds anyway :-| ...

Ya know, the really funny thing is that there are all kinds of RIP broadcasts on the segment, advertising people's broken internal networks and what not. Obviously there are other unix users on this network.

One time, I called their support and probed about linux -- "So, are you guys supporting Linux yet? I hear it is a great network operating system for this kind of stuff." Their response shocked me: they actually told me that they hear that Linux works much better than windows does with their ADSL offering... but they don't have plans to support it. Apparently, and I have no mis-conceptions of my winblows ignorance, the registry sometimes won't let go of an address in some circumstances. You have to manually edit it out by hand or do some re-installation. It's apparently a bug with winblows' DHCP implementation. Go figure.

Anyway, it DOES work. It works WELL. I like it. And, until everyone ELSE gets on here, it's fast as hell.

MAC address = Lame Excuse...... by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 09:53 · Score: 0

So far the ONLY technical valid explanation I have heard was that they need to have your NICs MAC addresses to verify me my use to their network. (dunno if its possible to limit someone from access if their mac address doesnt match the IP its trying to use).

First.. you can get a MAC address on all machines. Just because it is linux doesnt mean it doesnt have a MAC address.

Second, by example: My D-Link 220 combo card under winnt *REQUIRES* me to write a MAC address of my liking. Currently I have it set to all sixes.

Now tell me how am I supposed to remember this if I ever reinstall NT?

What if I buy a new system? what if my NIC blows up?

* Advertisment *
Currently I am happy with my Canadian Rogers@Home access... Up/Down stream are both around 50kilobytes/s (on ave). better sites, or multiple connections can push modems to 160kilobytes/s. I have been able to get above 400kilobytes/s but that was only few times for few mins. And then I used win98 with gozilla.

The IP is supposed to dynamic, but for the last two years it hasnt changed for me.

I tried getting ADSL from Canadian Bell. (asdl.sypatica.ca or adsl.sympatico.ca) but after few months of calling I was able to get info that they are beggining to test the service.. They have been doing so for the last two years..

Re:MAC address = Lame Excuse...... by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 20:56 · Score: 0

Apple System Profiler will also give you this info. Getting a MAC address on a Mac is hardly a problem, except for the uninformed.
Re:MAC address = Lame Excuse...... by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-05 04:57 · Score: 0

Which is why everyone needs an IBM AS/400. Even if you're uninformed, the IBM AS/400 will read your mind and figure out what to tell you, in a way you will understand. IBM AS/400. The only computer system which does everything, and then some.
Re:MAC address = Lame Excuse...... by rnturn · 1999-06-02 10:23 · Score: 1

``Now tell me how am I supposed to remember this if I ever reinstall NT?''

Umm... You could try writing it down and keeping it in an envelope inside the computer case. Just a thought. I think I'd have some paper records on hand as the bare minimum for a disaster recovery plan. Especially if you're running NT but I always keep a printout of the partition setup (from fdisk) for all of my disks, the fstab, and some other vital stuff that I'll need in case the system ever goes south on me.
``What if I buy a new system? what if my NIC blows up?''

Yah, bummer. Also, certain software licensing schemes use the MAC address to generate an internal key that the protected software checks against a key on disk. These software packages break when you have to replace your E'net card as well.
``The IP is supposed to dynamic, but for the last two years it hasnt [sic] changed for me.''

I'm not DHCP guru, but as I understand it DHCP doesn't have to give you a new IP address each time. Only if you configure it to assign address from a pool. Just because your address hasn't changed in a while doesn't mean it won't start changing every day starting tomorrow. :)

--
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
Re:MAC address = Lame Excuse...... by donarb · 1999-06-02 11:38 · Score: 1

BellSouth was denying hookups to all Macintosh users except those with the new iMacs because only the iMacs had the MAC address printed on a sticker next to the ethernet port. There is more than one freewaare utility available to get the MAC address out of the system, not difficult at all.
Re:MAC address = Lame Excuse...... by Mayor_Quimby · 1999-06-02 11:19 · Score: 1

Not entirely lame. Sucky, yes, but not lame. Some DHCP implementations require the physical MAC address for your NIC to allow multiple machines to work via DHCP. It depends on how the DSL connection is configured... a routed connection won't typically experience these problems, as the ADSL modem is indeed a router (in most cases, such as with NetSpeed/Cisco), however in newer environments (Newbridge, for example) the connection is bridged and the DHCP server relies on the MAC addresses to know what machines are to receive an IP address. This has caused a lot of headaches at work, but until Cisco has a solution... Gah.
For Linux, this is no big deal as its easy to get the MAC address. Macintoshes, however, are the problem. Then again, when aren't they? :)
Oh yeah. Bell (Canada) sucks. :P

--
________________
'Diamond' Joe Quimby

Blind Spot by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 09:57 · Score: 0

The whole problem with this line of thinking is that in reality it's false and dangerous. *Anyone* who knows their os, and networking !well! can cause problems for an ISP. The dangerous part is that it leaves a blind spot for the ISP. While they're *busy* watching the *potential*
troublemakers the real troublemakers unwatched can have a clear path.

Sometimes people can be their own worst enemy.

and if you CAN'T install Windows? by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 10:11 · Score: 0

Well? What if you can't?

(I don't have any Win** install CDs...don;'t have Windows installed, and don't even have the HD space (or time) to waste to repartition to GET the space.

Re:and if you CAN'T install Windows? by daviddennis · 1999-06-02 22:47 · Score: 1

I might suggest buying a really cheesy old 486 computer used with Windows95 already on it, and use that for the install.

Unfortunately, I guess you have to use the same network card, so I suppose it has to at least be PCI. But still, the market value of any used computer has to be virtually $ 0 nowadays. Cheaper than buying a retail version of Windows for sure.

D

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Re:Lets show them are Disappointment by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 10:13 · Score: 0

That's a ridiculous comment to make. At the rate the bells are (attempting) to merge, practically anyone is a potential customer. Also, the most likely reason they aren't supporting it is lack of user base. If they get the impression linux is bigger than they think they might reconsider.

I suppose MLK jr. shouldn't have gone to tennessee to help protest the lack of civil rights for the african american garbage men since his trash service wasn't from the same city, huh? Obviously a more serious issue but based on the same principals.

Re:Lets show them are Disappointment by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 10:27 · Score: 0

"Just calling to complain on principle makes Linux users look like a mob of crying skr1pt k1dd1&z."

Based on the reaction to this, and any other story that isn't PRO-LINUX from the vocal "Linux Community", I thought thats what it was: a mob of crying skr1pt k1dd1&z.

Really ? by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 10:29 · Score: 0

I've never heard of any Linux distro like that.

Re:Really ? by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 10:43 · Score: 0

"I've never heard of any Linux distro like that."

I sell hearing aids real cheap...
Re:Really ? by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 20:03 · Score: 0

On my linux system, I just put 0.0.0.0 in my /etc/ppp/options file. This is the hard way. linuxconf is the easy way. Of course, this requires that you know how to use a keyboard, so many windows users would be left out.
Re:Really ? by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 20:23 · Score: 0

Oops, sorry, I should have read the original post more carefully. :-(
Why do you have to download the dhcpcd if it comes with the distro ?

Bellsouth installer's attitude by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 10:33 · Score: 0

The guy from Bellsouth who installed my adsl configured my default OS - Windows 98 - with no problem. He did ask if I had a network and I said "not yet."

He did not miss all the *nix books next to the PC and we discussed Linux a bit. He said Bellsouth does not want people to run Linux because they can have multiple PCs attached to a single connection (duh!).

I signed the standard form and configured Linux after he left. I think Bellsouth expects people to require turn-key install for their $200 install and $100 activation fee, and they just can't provide it. Some manager types may fear and loathe Linux users for the hacker rep. that accompanies the use of this great OS. Too bad, so sad, it's coming faster and faster.

As the market grows we can be sure Linux support will be more available and accepted. In the meantime, it's up to us to do the techie stuff - I wouldn't have it any other way.

Re:US West ADSL by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 10:36 · Score: 0

US West does know what Linux is. They use it as there desktop OS across the company.

Re:Where do I find windows for my Netwinder? by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 10:52 · Score: 0

I think I saw a copy over on microsofts site...just search for the keywords "stop whining crybaby".

Re:so dont support it by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 11:07 · Score: 0

I quite agree...
I made the mistake of helping a (former?) friend set up Linux. I told him he'd have to take if from there, but he still icq's me every 30 seconds...
"D00D, me and my cool haxor self need some help with my l33t ftp server.."
"Why doesn't this work?" "how can I do this?"
"Can you come over and set this up for me?"
Sigh...
The linux motto is "Do it yourself". Companies who want to support linux need only to give us the tools we need to do it ourselves. And freinds need to learn how to do it themselves. (Please? before yoiu drive me bonkers...)

Because of this, they will burn in Linux Hell! by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 11:35 · Score: 0

(But maybe they are already there! ;-)

Droids will be Droids: Learn how to deal with them by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 11:39 · Score: 0

Droids will be Droids. Learn how to deal with them!

I got ADSL through Bell Atlantic.

Droid: "What kind of system do you have?" Me...: "486" Droid: "Ohh. I'm sorry. You need to have at least a pentium to use ADSL". Me...: "No problem, I've got a second machine. 200Mhz pentium." Droid: "Oh. Ok. What kind of operating system do you have?" Me...: "Linux." Droid: "Ohh. I'm sorry. We don't support Linux. We only support..." Me...: "No problem. It's dual boot. We can install it under windows 95." Droid: "Oh. Ok. Hows next week for the install?"

So the guys come out to install my ADSL. And, *AFTER* they've spend some 5 or 6 hours running wires around my house, they ask:

Them: "Which machine is this being connected up to?" Me..: "That one. Pointing to 486" Them: "Thats awfully old..." Me..: "No problem. Its running linux." Them: "Oh oh. We don't support linux." Me..: "Look. Get it working to the ADSL modem. I'll take it from there. Or I can swap the ethernet card into the pentium box, you can spend a lot of time futzing around with windows, and I'll undo it all 10 seconds after you leave. You'll get paid the same either way." Them: "Hmm. Welllll... Lets try it...."

Droids will be droids the world over. (See the hackers dictionary for the definition of a "droid".) You people just have to learn how to deal with them. For crying out loud, didn't you guys ever play zork or adventure?

In a related vein, a colleague of mine scanned the local ADSL subnet. More than 25% of the machines were running some form of unix. (Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, Solaris). In contrast, at least 49% were running windows. (23% were "unknown".)

Gonna bring this up with bell atlantic by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 12:06 · Score: 0

After reading all these horror stories today
about linux and mac support for Bell Atlantic
ADSL service I am going to make it a point
tommorrow to pass this info to the RIGHT
people in Bell Atlantic to see if it can get
resolved. (I am a contractor there..posting AC
cause I work in a nazi state)

I work pretty close with the adsl folks so
hopefully I can make them see the light..
Post every horror story you got please.. I will
email them all to the people who can deal with it.

Bell-Atl like all big big corporations is just mired in red tape. I spend 80% of my day just sitting around doing squat cause 3/4 of my projects are stuck in some horrible managment chain. I'll take this to a district manager
tommorrow (big boss..right below VP).

Re:On a (sorta) related subject... by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 12:13 · Score: 0

Just run your web server on port 80 and then
either tcpwrap it so only people from outside
you cable companies ip range can access it
or use ipfwadm or ip-chains to silently drop those
packets instead.. they will never figure it out.
They are just doing a port scan.. if your firewalled correctly they wont see a thing.

and if they do... your just testing:)

Re:Linux can be a wide open security hole by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 12:14 · Score: 0

I can second this experience, somewhat. I've sold a friend bigtime on Linux and now she doesn't want to use anything else to go online with. But she now knows enough to be dangerous, and (until just recently) it was VERY dangerous for her. She's running Slackware (hates RedHat) and awhile back had to reinstall it. She forgot that Slack doesn't implicitly set up a root password (at least 3.6 didn't, I think they put that into the setup script with 4.0). So one night I'd just gotten an email from her, and on a lark read the header to try to telnet into her box. Because she'd reinstalled, I found I didn't have an account anylonger on the machine. On a lark I typed 'root'. Wham! at the user prompt without it even asking for a password. Needless to say I urged her to do a full reinstall. Neither she nor I know the system well enough to insure that somebody else hadn't put whatever they wanted on her system during the TWO WEEKS she was hanging out online on a box with no password on root. This kind of stuff is going to happen again and again. Linux is like driving a bulldozer. People used to driving a Geo Metro get behind the wheel and all sorts of bad stuff can happen.

Re:Droids will be Droids: Learn how to deal with t by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 14:59 · Score: 0

Your Jedi mind tricks will not work on me!

LET BELLSOUTH KNOW HOW YOU FEEL!!! by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 18:07 · Score: 0

Do not let BellSouth get away with this! Give them your 2 cents!

Go here and give them a piece of your mind!
http://www.bellsouth.net/feedback.html

They shouldn't discriminate against race or choice of OS!

123----I have ADSL w/Linux on Bellsouth... by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 19:59 · Score: 0

ADSL is DHCP, using MAC addresses. If you have the hardware, you can access the internet.
They do not have anyone to call for help, yes...but who needs it? You call them, and tell them the network is down. When they ask what OS (ms95,98,nt, mac?),you tell them Linux...enjoy their confusion. "That is software, sir, not an OS..." Ha, HA.

No help from tech support, but did they ever help anyway?
I'm using RH6.0, and a 3com Vortex card.
Works great.
Jeff Martin ukuru@bellsouth.net
jeff@xipe.net

Re:alot of people want telcos to be 'english only' by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 20:56 · Score: 0

"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - for ever." - O'Brien in Orwell's 1984

Northern VA Bell Atlantic by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 21:13 · Score: 0

this is the same story i got from Bell Atlantic here in northern VA... they will only install on a WinNT/9X or Mac box...

Don't tell them.... by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 21:50 · Score: 0

I've set up Bellsouth ADSL for several friends (and mine is scheduled for installation today). The trick is, when that flunky shows up, throw your old windows game machine at him. Let them think you use windows. I agree with the need to CHANGE their STUPID policy, but in the meantime, don't let it stop your bandwidth!!! Their DHCP servers suck, so you'll have to shorten the refresh rate on dhclient (I use SuSE), but it works great. The less they know, the better.

Re:Not surprised at high Unix percentage by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 22:26 · Score: 0

The unknown 23%.

Shell Accounts by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 22:30 · Score: 0

My own ISP just banned telnetting in from outside. A main *advantage* of a shell account is that you can telnet in and use the same mail, news, etc. from anywhere, so this makes it a lot less useful and seems like an obvious attempt to kill the shell accounts.

The shell accounts already limited people to 8 processes each, which is not even enough for some Unix tools.

What ISPs with shell accounts do people recommend?
(Someone mentioned here that they work for an ISP with them.)

-- Ken A (arromdee@inetnow.net, until I change that)

Re:On a (sorta) related subject... by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 22:53 · Score: 0

Just run your web server on port 80 and then either tcpwrap it so only people from outside you cable companies ip range can access it or use ipfwadm or ip-chains to silently drop those packets instead.. they will never figure it out. They are just doing a port scan.. if your firewalled correctly they wont see a thing.

Both TCP Wrappers and ipfwadm give away their presence. When a connection is refused to a wrapped service, the TCP connection is made and then dropped immediately. ipfwadm can drop the incoming SYNs, or send back an ICMP Unreachable, but it can't respond to the SYN with an RST. Will ipchains do this?

Stop Bleating by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 23:35 · Score: 0

Just *tell* them it's for Windoze, have them put it on some spare Windoze client, then reappropriate the hardware when they've left the premises. It's not hard.

Don't let their ignorance hold you back!

Re:alot of people want telcos to be 'english only' by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 23:57 · Score: 0

A co-worker of mine who is a customer of Bell Atlantic can't get them to stop sending her a bill both in english and spanish. She doesn't know why, but they apparently decided they should send both to here. She doesn't speak a word of spanish.

Call with BellSouth by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 07:55 · Score: 1

I called the 800# given in the article this
morning and after listening to their muzak
for 5 minutes got to talk with someone. I
asked for Rich Allen but was told he wasn't in
yet. When I commented that it was 10am edt
and wondered what time he arrived, I was told
that it was actually 7am where they were
Nevada). So realizing I was just talking with
a call center I started asking what the issue
was with their provisioning adsl for linux. The
guy kept saying he didn't know anything about
it except it wasn't on their "supported" list.
He clearly didn't understand any of the technical
details so I asked to speak with someone else.

After another 5 minutes of muzak, a supervisor
(Paul) came on the phone. His only explanation
was a continual rehash of "we don't support
linux." I kept repeating that I only needed
them to provision the line and I'd worry about
setting up the nic interface and dhcp. Same
loop.

I then asked him who made policy decisions since
they were just a call center. He wouldn't provide
an actuall Bellsouth name and phone number but
did put me on hold for a few more minutes. When
he came back, he told me it was Bellsouth's policy
to _not_ to support linux and that they had no
plans to do so.

Its clear that calling Nevada is a waste of time
when it comes to influencing policy makers.

They seem to believe their provisioning dial tone
rather than IP services.

I used to work for Bellsouth DOT net by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 09:01 · Score: 1

I used to work for Bellsouth, their policy was to hang up on people running Linux or Windows NT. I mean it I used sneak support to users who called about support issues with those OSes. Got busted once and got chewed OUT. I mean it it didnt matter if a Linux user called up and JUST wanted to know the DNS servers. Tech support was required to ask what OS are you using and if you said Linux then they told us to say we dont support it ..'click'.

BellSouth sufferings by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 11:50 · Score: 1

I'm saddened to hear that, but not suprised. I have had very little satisfaction, and much trouble and expense, from BellSouth, and so has everyone else I've known who has been forced to deal with them in any digital way.

I grant you I'm a little bit rural; not that much. I'm two miles from a SLC, on copper installed less than 10 years ago. From 1992 to 1997 I could not get a price from those rat bastards on any sort of a leased line... not even a nailed up POTS line. Spent dozens of hours in conversations like this:

"I wanna set up an internet site, I need a leased line to (somenumber 90 miles away). How much for a T1 or a 56K line? or DS0 and DS1 if you sell 'em by that name?"

"uh.... we'll call you back"

One year after I get an ISP (joy of joys!) who uses the same CO I do; oddly enough at just about the same time BellSouth.NOT service began to become available in our general area, my ISP's upstream T1 begins to exhibit really strange behavior. BellSouth assures all and sundry that the line is tip top, blames ISP's equipment. ISP replaces equipment to no avail until his upstream ISP adds a fat connection to BellSouth.NOT (much $$$, not peering), whereupon the problems disappear. And do not reappear when he switches back to his old equipment.

Shortly after I make an inquiry (told 'em: "I'm dreaming, but tell me what it'd cost") to BellSouth.NOT for a price on a T1, my existing ISDN line to my ISP starts showing really odd problems. It had been in service continiously for a year, then suddenly I just can't call my ISP on my ISDN line for anything from 30 minutes to 36 hours at a time. I get a dialtone, and occassionaly a single channel connect, and then it all just hangs.

If I dial a different number, it works just fine, and other of my ISP's customers using identical ISDN setups through the same CO have no problems. I just can't call my ISP on my ISDN line for anything from 30 minutes to 36 hours at a time. BellSouth's script is "It's your equipment, the line tests fine", and "we'll come fix it if you agree to pay the charges for replacing your equipment". After more bouts of this than I care to remember, we're still using the same equipment, never having had the tech's test fail to bear out our contention that the line was hosed.

I must digress a moment to say that the individual techs are always quite polite (even in the rain), fairly good about explaining the problem, and generally just good people. I've never had the slightest cause to flame one of BellSouth's wire guys (or the one wire lady I met).

They are the only saving grace their company has. I surely hope that local carrier competition comes to my area soon, so they can hire those guys and drive this last, great rotten chunk of the exploded whale carcass what was Ma Bell into oblivion forever.

So? by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 08:24 · Score: 2

I think this is normal. Most ISPs don't want customers who use Unix. They view us as dangerous. More likely to be knowledgable enough to cause trouble. This is essentially the same issue as universities that kick students off of the dorm networks for running Linux. I have personally had runins with two different ISPs because I use Linux. Another ISP was monitoring a friend of mine because he seemed "too knowledgable". I ended up working for that ISP, and we would scan the dialups for non-Windows machine, and keep at least soemwhat of an eye on those people that our scans turned up (~.1% of the user base). We definately kept track of who was using Linux or other Unixes. I didn't learn better because of what had been done to me, I just learned that it was a good idea. Ditto shell accounts, at first anyone actually using the shell accounts was kept track of (1% of the user base, although everyone had one and knew they had one), then it was just removed and those people kicked off, because they were more trouble than they were worth. Other ISPs in the area did similar things.

Never tell your ISP that you don't use Windows. You could find yourself being closely monitored. You could even find yourself subject to legal action. You will almost definately be made note of, either mentally or an actual list that is kept. When I move and call to set up an ISP account, I am as careful as when I call a hardware company for support.

Things are changing, with the popularity of Linux, but I still think the climate is generally so bad, that if you must tell your ISP that you don't use Windows, at least tell them that you have a Mac.

And as one of the persecutors, I can defend my actions. Although it may be different now, as recently as a year ago, and certainly 2-5 years ago, anyone demonstrating Unix knowledge is about 10 times more likely to be a "troublemaker". That means hacking their ISP's network or other networks, launching DOS attacks or becoming the victim of DOS attacks because of IRC confrontations, or any activity that generally makes them noticed.

Re:So? by Wntrmute · 1999-06-02 12:24 · Score: 1

Wow. I find this all rather fasinating. I work for a CLEC that also happens to be in the ISP business, as a tech support supervisor. While we don't "officially" support Linux, we have a number of techs that use it and help out when we get calls from people that use it. In fact, we have a plan in place to offer true Linux support within the year. I'm even working on the training materials for it. A number of our employees, in both tech support and NOC, read slashdot. We have no policy for watching people that use "alternative" OS's or their shell accounts. In fact, in some of the areas we service, the shell accounts are rather popular.

I can understand an ISP not wanting to train people to support UNIX, but this "blacklisting" of people that use it is insane.
Re:So? by xjohnson · 1999-06-02 09:31 · Score: 1

I agree about sometimes having to submit to the man. (i.e. lying about the OS you're running) It's a s****y way of getting what you want, but if it comes down to that, definitely tell them you're running a Mac (or OS/2 or Be) or something like that. It enhances that "not all OSes are made by MS" mindset.
Only if you can't pry any other info out of the bonehead callcenter people should you lie about using Windows. Hell, these setup calls are all toll free, so why not try a couple OSes before resorting to lying about Windows?

Call the FCC too, and not just about this. by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-02 12:41 · Score: 4

Don't just call your state's Public Service Commission. It's darned important you raise polite hell about BellSouth with the PSC, but don't just do it with them.

You also want to talk to the FCC and possibly the FTC too. Several reasons why...

The FCC can force change nationwide or at the least across BellSouth territory; a PSC can only affect change in one state.

If you contact the FCC as well, they can establish that BellSouth has a pattern of not only anticompetitive behaviour, but also of not serving in the public interest.

The FCC has an increasing number of complaints against BellSouth to begin with and is already investigating them.

The FCC has the right to revoke BellSouth's common carrier status (roughly equivalent to revoking their "license" to run a phone company) if BellSouth refuses to cooperate.

I'm even going to go so far as to say that you should complain to your PSC and the FCC and FTC even if you are NOT trying to get ADSL coverage from BellSouth. BellSouth is a company that indulges in anticompetitive tactics, and deserves to be spanked soundly for many reasons...

I would complain if you fall in ANY of the above categories and are in BellSouth country:

If you have attempted to obtain ADSL service only to be told your OS is not officially supported and told that you cannot connect to the network as a result.

If you have attempted to obtain ADSL service in an area where BellSouth is offering it (see if your area is covered or planned for coverage by hitting BellSouth's webpage) and are told that because you live in an apartment or are told for other reasons that ADSL is not available.

If you have inquired about ADSL from Bellsouth only to be told it is at some other expected time in future and the launch date keeps being pushed back.

If you have been quoted anything at all above ~$50-100/month for ADSL service. (BellSouth has often charged exorbitant prices for ADSL, assuming you can even get it; the planned price in Louisville is something like $400 installation and roughly $300/month metered.)

If you work for a telco and have attempted to sell leased line service for businesses, only to have BellSouth sell you lines at an actual profit to BellSouth and at such a markup as to make it impossible for your company to compete in terms of pricing.

If you have attempted to buy ISDN service through BellSouth and are not in Tennessee. (Costs for ISDN service in most of BellSouth country are literally so expensive that a fractional T1 line is cheaper.)

If you have attempted to buy ISDN service through BellSouth only to be told it is not available in your area because you are too far from the switching station or given any other reason.

If you are a BellSouth customer, in an area where BellSouth is offering both local and LD services (or, for that matter, local and/or LD and/or data services such as bellsouth.net or paging) and there are no local dialing providers at all. (It is illegal under the Telecommunications Act for BellSouth to offer LD or data services in any local market it services where competition does not exist for local dialup. THE FCC NEEDS TO BE TOLD IF THIS IS HAPPENING WHERE YOU LIVE.)

If you are in BellSouth territory, BellSouth offers LD and/or data services (such as bellsouth.net or paging) and there are no competitors that are as cheap or cheaper than BellSouth. (Again, they CANNOT sell LD or data services till local phone service competition exists.)

If you have been forced to buy T1 service from BellSouth or been forced to buy package deals from BellSouth for services such as caller ID or call forwarding. (There have been reports that folks who have tried to buy ADSL from BellSouth have been told ADSL cannot be installed nor can ISDN, and they have been pressured to buy a T1 line instead. Bellsouth makes its Big Money on T1 lines...BellSouth also has the habit of pricing optional services such as caller ID and call waiting so high that the mere combination of a regular phone line, CID, and call waiting is literally MORE EXPENSIVE than a $35/month package deal that comes with more services that they want to sell.)

BellSouth needs spanking on basic principle. Slashdot the hell out of the PSCs, the FCC, and the FTC and let them know just what you think of BellSouth's horrid service...best case, BellSouth is forced to clean up its act. Worst case, BellSouth loses its "phone company" license and someone more competent moves in like Unidial...hell, even US Worst would be better (at least you can actually GET AND AFFORD ADSL and/or ISDN).

Re:Call the FCC too, and not just about this. by Cowards+Anonymous · 1999-06-03 09:17 · Score: 1

[long list of woes]

Not to be rude, but I believe you spelled PacBell/SBC incorrectly.

The practices you site are endemic to every RBOC I've ever seen. Nothing about BellSouth makes them especially worse than the others. Not that I discourage complaints -- it's possible that if people start making more noise about how poorly their RBOC treats them, there might eventually be some changes!

Bell Canada (Sympatico) soon to be similar by krs · 1999-06-02 07:09 · Score: 1

The ADSL offering by Bell Canada in Ontario and Quebec will soon be very similiar. They will soon be implementing Redbacks PPPoE which would require a Windows 95/98 or Windows NT client to "login". Currently they have quite a few linux users using their ethernet ADSL offering (Called HSE - High Speed Edition). An employee posting to an internal newsgroup said that Linux users will be out of luck and as of now/before Linux was not "officially" supported anyhow. Grrr.

Using PPP over ethernet will allow them to control many things... but it sucks from a users standpoint.

Re:Bell Canada (Sympatico) soon to be similar by slim · 1999-06-02 15:36 · Score: 1

Hrm... PPP. Over. Ethernet.

That looks like the kind of thing the network wizards in this world would knock up support for in an afternoon, after all, we have ethernet, we have PPP: just a matter of pointing pppd at something other than /dev/cua0 (but probably more complex than /dev/eth0, bah)
--
Re:Bell Canada (Sympatico) soon to be similar by Athos · 1999-06-02 11:14 · Score: 1

As an HSE user using Linux, all I can say is BUGGER.

Isn't there a PPPoE for Linux implementation already?

--

--
-- The Internet is the Suppository of All Knowledge. You get it in the end.
Re:Bell Canada (Sympatico) soon to be similar by Holerith · 1999-06-03 02:31 · Score: 1

Sympatico in Nova Scotia (Maritime Telephone & Telegraph) has a different ADSL setup than Sympatico in ON/QC (BEll). Here rather than HSE they call it empowered and it is a higher speed connection (downstream is 3mbps average, 7 mbps max).
However they will not install unless you are running a minumum of a Pentium 100/64M RAM and Win95 or 98. If you have NT, OS/2, Mac, Linux, etc. you are out of luck unless you switch to Win9x and then switch after they install.
I have no idea if this works as I don't know anyone who has tried it. I hope to have MPowered the end of the month (I have a multiboot system) and will experiment then.
Part of Micro$oft's monopoly is driven by the #@!$%& companies who don't think anyone uses anything else.

--
-- Holerith

Re:Don't worry, be happy (in Canada) by krs · 1999-06-02 07:33 · Score: 1

Rather funny... Guess why they are implementing PPPoE? Because they will be allowing (read: forced) other ISPs to offer ADSL service. So all companies like interlog (specfically mentioned in discussions) will be forced to use this implementation of PPPoE as well in order for Bell to keep things straight. Its actually Bell's new branch "Nexxia" which is wholesaling ADSL.

US West ADSL by gavinhall · 1999-06-02 08:01 · Score: 1

Posted by Fleeno:

I've had very good luck from US West. They didn't know what Linux was, but they didn't care.

I opted for the "user installation," so they just sent me the router and I was up and running. Yay!

Re:US West ADSL by demon · 1999-06-02 10:45 · Score: 1

Far as I know, we here in South Dakota don't have any DSL service either (we are also served by USWest). I lived in New Mexico for awhile - if you think USWest is bad, go down to Carlsbad and just try dealing with GTE. You'll REALLY be hating life then.

--

Sam: "That was needlessly cryptic."
Max: "I'd be peeing my pants if I wore any!"
Re:US West ADSL by jimhill · 1999-06-02 10:05 · Score: 1

Fuckin' A, buddy. I thought I was the only Linux user in the Land of Enchantment gnashing his teeth and clenching his fists over US Worst's treatment of the locals. (If you're keeping score at home, NM is the only one of USW's 13-state coverage area that has no DSL service.)

How soon before real competition comes to NM? I'll drop US Worst in a heartbeat when an option becomes available.

--
Learn to spell: nickel, missile, lose, solely, amendment, speech, kernel, probably, ridiculous, deity, hierarchy, versus
Re:US West ADSL by llywrch · 1999-06-02 23:14 · Score: 1

On the positive side, US West has an unusual number of clueons when it comes to Linux: one of their field installers is even a regular on the PLUG (Portland Linux/Unix Group) mailing list -- & you can ask for specific installers. ADSL & Linux is as much of a sure thing in the Portland/Vancouver area as ADSL is anywhere.

On the negative side, US West seems to be locked in a number of petty battles with every state over its business practices. Right now it's trying to let the rural part of the state suffer while pumping money into sexier offerings in the Portland area. The PUC here is fighting with the company over substandard service in towns like Florence & Roseburg, while US West is pushing a bill to free itself from PUC oversight thru the legislature.

Think of a world where Microsoft could own more than one state legislature & a few congresscriters, & you have US West. Bleh.

Geoff

--
I think I see a trend here. Maybe for them it really would be easier to muzzle the entire internet than to produce p
Re:US West ADSL by SEWilco · 1999-06-02 08:35 · Score: 1

I agree, US West did not mind Linux for me either. I also opted for self-install, but when it did not work I got to wade through various support groups. One phone menu gave me three MS-Windows choices, so I chose NT so that I'd get a person who at least had an inkling of the capabilities of an OS. [Yes, it was a comm config problem in the CO and not an OS issue]
Re:US West ADSL by Ozymandias_KoK · 1999-06-03 04:33 · Score: 1

Really? I sure do support a hell of a lot of Win9x and NT users here in Denver then. Maybe I'm just going to the wrong address at work? It may be used in specialized areas to be sure, but the average moron here can barely grasp the sublte nuances of the login prompts, much less anything else...

What??? by gavinhall · 1999-06-02 08:38 · Score: 1

Posted by stodge:

Is it me or are people stupid? I've got ADSL, and I use Linux and Win98. What does the ISP care? Tell them you're going to use Windows. When I configure my PC (Linux or Win) for ADSL, I just treat it like I'm connecting to a regular network through a router. So it doesn't matter what OS I use. Or are all xDSLs different?

Re:Bad career move by gavinhall · 1999-06-03 08:24 · Score: 1

Posted by Jeff Martin:

List win98 as the OS, when the install guys come out (and they bring a 3c vortex card), just install it yourself-- I installed my card, because they say that they are not responsible for damage to the computer.
The only thing that is done at install is they add your hardware address to the database--this is done over the phone, and this is far easier to find out in Linux.
Most of the install guys should be flipping burgers. I tryed three groups before I found the one with the brain in it. Call the supervisor, remember there is always another one above that one.
Call the sales rep for the county and the State.
Or an alternate-- there are other xDSL carriers in GA (you are in GA right?).
Try that, see what comesout...the wait is about six/eight months anyway--maybe you could find a better carrier. If you are in Atlanta, call the Linux General Store, they have a 2 ghz wireless DHCP setup going...just a thought.

Management = Management = Management by MadCat · 1999-06-04 03:49 · Score: 1

Just to add some fuel to the ongoing fire :)

The biggest reason for a telco or ISP to refuse
support or installation to Linux users is the fact that these sorts of decisions are made high up the hierarchy. Most managers don't know Linux, don't want to know it, and most of all still believe that Windows is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

I've worked for Compaq for a few months, and their general rule for support came down to the fact 'Linux installed on Compaq machines = no support'.

Now, I've also worked for an ISP, they started out running Linux for their servers, various people working there have made some great contributions to the open source community (the guy who wrote SysVInit works there -- hi Mike! :) and they actually *welcome* people using Linux.

There is a huge difference between a multi-million dollar cooporation and your friendly neighbourhood ISP. The main difference is management, or lack of management.

Get to the managers, you get the things done.

(I'm rambling I know, I haven't had my coffee yet).

--
There is no sig...

LINUX + ADSM = PROBLEM by deno · 1999-06-02 17:33 · Score: 1

Hi there

I havent read the original story, so this may be a bit off-topic, but there is a problem with Linux + ADSM.

Namely, ADSM clients running under RH-6.0 Linux simply crash the ADSM server. Part of the problem seams to be an buffer overflow in ADSM-server, which causes it to die in pain when presented a OS-version number longer than 7 characters. Well, the standard RH6.0 kernel is:

2.2.5-15 = 8 characters.

However, taking a kernel-version with a shorter name did not solve the problem completely - therefore I am not allowed to install RH 6.0 on a machine running ADSM client at the moment.

I hope this will be cleared soon, because it is an obvious flaw in the ADSM-server, not a problem with linux.

Yours
Denis

Re:LINUX + ADSM = PROBLEM by deno · 1999-06-02 17:42 · Score: 1

Ups. I should have read the story first... :-(( It is OFF-toppic. But the network connection was SOOO slow .-) Well, i hope noone will notice it. Denis
Re:LINUX + ADSM = PROBLEM by Type-R · 1999-06-02 21:45 · Score: 1

I hope this will be cleared soon, because it is an obvious flaw in the ADSM-server, not a problem with linux.
Grab the latest batch of PTF's for your ADSM server. I believe the fix is in....
--
Yep, off topic, but understood :)

Not surprised at high Unix percentage by Dom2 · 1999-06-02 16:28 · Score: 1

Given that most Unix boxes will likely be left on, whereas most Windows boxes will be switched off by their owners when they are not in use. What proportion of the subnet did not respond to your scans?

Bull by Brian+Knotts · 1999-06-02 09:00 · Score: 1

Your numbers are *way* off. DSL userbase is probably closer to 20-30% Linux.

--
Get your fresh, hot kernels right here!

Sophisticated Computer Users by smartin · 1999-06-02 07:32 · Score: 1

Linux, an open source operating system that is increasingly gaining ground as an alternative to Microsoft's
I like this quote "Linux, an open source operating system that is increasingly gaining ground as an alternative to Microsoft's Windows, is used by several million people--largely technically sophisticated computer users--in the United States. Although the small base of Linux home users will limit the impact of BellSouth's policy, critics still note that the most sophisticated users are more likely to require a high-speed Net access option like DSL."
I like it that the press is starting to depict Linux users as people that know better rather than just geeks.

--
The difference between Canada and the USA is that in Canada healthcare is a right and gun ownership is a privilege.

Re:Sophisticated Computer Users by GargoyleMT · 1999-06-02 07:45 · Score: 1

It is a nice turn, but in my mind it's balanced with the fact that they essentially ignored all of the non-x86 architectures upon which Linux runs. It is an alternative to windows, but it is also an alternative to MacOS, BeOS, and quite a number of commercial unices.

Re:MCIWorld has the same anti linux Policy by RatBastard · 1999-06-02 12:22 · Score: 1

AT&T Worldnet has/had a similar thing. You signed up with a setup ptogram that setup some damned lame dailer and all. I looked through the ACCOUNT.TXT file, pulled out the dailup number, DNS info and login name and password and connected with my BeOS system.

Maybe they don't want to control you, but they are setting up thier signup system to be idiot proof (thus insuring that all they get is idiots).

My current ISP recently rolled out cable modems and they don't give a rats ass what OS you use. They only "officially" support Windows, but that's more a manpoer issue.

--
Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.

Offtopic on Voodoo3 support by demon · 1999-06-02 11:09 · Score: 1

There is a Glide library (v2.6) for the Banshee and Voodoo3 line. It supports fullscreen only at present, but I guess it works for Q3Test.

--

Sam: "That was needlessly cryptic."
Max: "I'd be peeing my pants if I wore any!"

Re:Where do I find windows for my Netwinder? by Joe+Patry · 1999-06-02 10:43 · Score: 1

just install QVWM and tell the guy you'll handle configuration yourself.

I don't believe so by Fastolfe · 1999-06-02 09:43 · Score: 2

You cannot "sniff" packets from your neighbor's cable modem. It's true that the data pipe is shared, but it's a better comparison to liken it to switched ethernet.

With cable modems, your download bandwidth isn't much of a problem. Cable networks were designed to spew out a crapload of digital bandwidth to the end users. Upload bandwidth is another story, and servers, obviously, will use a lot more of that bandwidth than people with normal Internet habits.

This is why cable services tend to have conditions that prohibit cable modem subscribers from running "servers."

Re:I don't believe so by Fastolfe · 1999-06-03 02:43 · Score: 2

I didn't say it *was* switched, I was offering that as an extension to the ethernet segment analogy.

Cable modems share bandwidth, but they don't share *data*. To my knowledge, you can't sniff your neighbor's cable modem packets. That would be one HUGE privacy/security problem for obvious reasons. No real public network would go online if that were the case.
Re:I don't believe so by tzanger · 1999-06-02 20:07 · Score: 1

You cannot "sniff" packets from your neighbor's cable modem. It's true that the data pipe is shared, but it's a better comparison to liken it to switched ethernet.

Could you please explain how you obtain a switched network with one cable shared between all users in a segment? The only reason switches are "secure" in that sense is because the only connection point between X and Y in the switch is the instant that it connects the two through the switching fabric. Picture it as an x by x crosspoint matrix. if A1 wants to connect with G4, the switch connects JUST those two together.

SwBell as well by Fastolfe · 1999-06-02 09:51 · Score: 2

Since they're both essentially owned by the same company and their tech support is mixed together, swbell shares these features.

I also don't think they bring a Windows laptop just because they like Windows and don't know anything about Linux; it's probably because they're using some proprietary diagnostics software that was written for Windows. Even if the laptop is just a basic working network system (no diagnostic software), it only makes sense for it to be Windows, since the vast majority of their customers will be Windows-based.

Re:One potential motive. by Fastolfe · 1999-06-02 09:58 · Score: 2

Why would this annoy your provider? IP's are IP's. They don't usually care if their customers end up with the same IP address for a long time or are assigned a new one every ten minutes.

Typically IP's are renewed by the OS/DHCP client software continually, so you keep the same IP for the entire time your system is online. When you reboot, however, you're assigned a new one like everyone else. Of course, there's also no reason why the DHCP server can't re-assign you the same IP you had before, but that's something on their end; you can't control that. Linux and Windows (or any other DHCP-capable OS) are pretty much identical in this respect; Linux just keeps its IP addresses longer on average because of its longer uptime. If your provider needs your IP address to change, they'll change it. Your DHCP client *must* check in at regular intervals to renew your IP lease. If your IP is slated to be changed, it will be changed then. Of course there's typically little reason to do this (unless they were renumbering their network).

Generally IP addresses are never changed while your system is online. This would of course result in the dropping of all of your existing network connections. Aside from an IP renumbering party, this has never happened to me on a DHCP network, though I don't have ADSL so I can't say if it's a common occurrence or not...

Don't worry, be happy (in Canada) by Simon+Carr · 1999-06-02 07:26 · Score: 1

Other ISP's will soon be offering residential ADSL service. No real ETA as of yet, but the ISP I work for plans to roll out the service in the near future (good news for me, free ADSL). I can only imagine other ISPs will follow that are a lot kinder to OTHER operating systems than just Windows Whatever.

If Sympatico's thinking about implimenting this, they're totally forgetting about Mac users as well I would assume. It would be beyond stupid.

--
-- The unsig...

Re:Don't worry, be happy (in Canada) by DeepBrain · 1999-06-02 08:42 · Score: 1

Well, read what krs said too.

Look at the specs around http://www.bellnexxia.com. They are deploying RedBack SMS-based (http://www.redback.com) equipment so that they can resell one megabit modem service.
Right now, RedBack only has a client for Win9X... so no NT, no Linux, no Mac OS. Linux is actually probably reasonably easy to add support for, somebody with the RFC can probably do it in a few days. [ah, the beauty of open source].

Still, they are basically dialupizing DSL. They will be able to bill per second, etc.
Re:Don't worry, be happy (in Canada) by GoofyBoy · 1999-06-02 21:07 · Score: 1

>Other ISP's will soon be offering residential ADSL service.

Weren't Bell charging ISPs something like $200 wholesale for the lines?

My area apparently can't get the Bell's HSE for some reason beyond me. I live in a high density area, near a Bell office. It seriously sucks, because I and many others in my condo would gladly pay for the service. (Some of these condos in my building and nearby sell for 1million +).

Bell really needs to increase their area of service.

--
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.

Support? by Draco · 1999-06-02 11:41 · Score: 1

I daresay that like myself, most other linux users who are getting DSL right now wouldn't want the telco installer to touch their box anyway.

I would be quite happy for them to leave the 10-T DSL modem sitting on my desk with a piece of paper listing DNS/Gateway/IP etc and be on their marry way.

From a customer support POV, troubleshooting on their part should be limited to standard TCP/IP stuff anyway, about which I would guess the average DSL subscribing, Linux using user would understand far more than the average Windows user anyway.

At the very least, they should not refuse to install DSL if it is destined to be plugged into the back of a linux box. I can understand them not wanting to commit the time and resources to ensure that their outsourced tech support contractors were capable of doing the linux support, but their current policy snubs a particularly large and growing percentaege of their customer base. Surely if they refused to take support calls from the linux-using subscribers to their service, they would save themselves the hassle of having to support it, but hey, at least we would have access to the service, and I'm pretty used to that kind of attitude anyway. As long as I can get the drivers/specs/physical hardware running into my house, I can be willing to give up my support contract.

MediaOne by mattdm · 1999-06-02 09:18 · Score: 1

I've had no problems running Linux with M1X. Their policy is that they'll allow it, but not support it -- a distinction that Bell South should learn. Most Linux users don't need as much hand-holding anyway.

Although I do wanna say that the few times I've had to call tech support (for issues related to the line, not at all on my computer), the techs have been fairly ignorant. When they start telling me to do things like "run winipcfg to find your IP address", I say "actually, I'm not using windows, I'm using linux. but my IP address is nn.nn.nn.nn". "Oh," says the tech, "Ok. Now go to the Start Menu, and ...." *sigh*

--

uspest DSL by quadra · 1999-06-02 08:56 · Score: 1

US Pest was about the same.. but they really don't care.. as long as your system has DHCP and ether..

GTE ADSL Service by cshaw · 1999-06-02 11:53 · Score: 1

This is all really odd. I got my ADSL line from GTE back in january. (college station, tx.) They had two or three isp's that they partnered with in my area. The teleco guy came, he set up the wiring, droped off the ADSL Router and left. The ADSL Router just runs into our hub. (or single computer if you wanted). So its pretty much an ethernet network. The point of this is that it is the ISP that handles the actual Internet Connectivity. My ISP (which is very linux friendly) just gave me a static IP and other essential info and I was off running. So technically, BellSouth's saying that linux configuration is "under development" is crap. The OS matters not.

Re:GTE ADSL Service by Recbo · 1999-06-02 16:13 · Score: 1

Since you have an independent ISP, you didn't
run into the GTE.net ISP policy that jumps
over the desk and into your face about linux.

I have dhcpcd running, so I will deceive
GTE.net, which is no problem with GTE. I
don't appreciate the insult, the degradation
of sneaking linux in the back door in the
middle of the night, and all.

Crosslink is an ISP which gets along with
linux on GTE. They cost quite a bit more
than GTE.net, though.

GTE and Bell Atlantic are merging. BA is
in the next county, and Covad installs
DSL there. For the same price as GTE.net,
Covad ISP's, about six of them, offer
much higher speed. I'm wondering if Covad
can use their hardware, which is different,
in GTE DSLAM's? That would be ideal.

your lucky...bandwidth drought here by goon · 1999-06-02 07:26 · Score: 1

we are lucky even to have isdn access in '.au', cable availability is restricted because of the lack of competition (and u can only get dynamic ip's), isdn is expensive and the best u can get at a reasonable price is 56K modem access. even then u have to pick and choose b/w isp's.

must be a router down i cant get to the cnet (and slashdot) site but wrt to adsl, i thought at that low level of comms they should be technology neutral?

what's the reason? it a technical one or an attack of the PHB's? (pointy haired bosses).

--
peterrenshaw ~ Another Scrappy Startup

Re:Nope, not true -- post not true either! by yack0 · 1999-06-02 22:07 · Score: 1

This statement is not true.
"Cable networks are just like Ethernet networks, packets can be sniffed by anybody because the protocol is not address based and everybody shares the same data pipe. "

SOME cable networks are like this, @home, Road Runner. There are many cable systems that do not have this setup. Please, keep this in mind. Thanks for trying to learn something by reading this post :)

--
-- There is no sig line, only Zuul.

My kingdom for a clue by jjohn · 1999-06-02 18:49 · Score: 1

We, the OSS community, need to offer cash rewards for evidence of cluefulness in telcos. So far, this seems to be as an elusive beast as Bigfoot or
Nessy. Why are telcos so damned lame? You'd think that they would understand the shifting nature of phone service from voice to data and EMBRACE THE FUTURE. Instead, they still seemed to think data service = T1 prices. It's really sad and depressing. How many people can setup networks for their home? Apparently enough to panic BellSouth.

Ugh.

Re:Bad career move by dattaway · 1999-06-02 09:30 · Score: 4

I wasn't satisfied with a computer generated denial because I stated Linux as my OS of choice, so I complained. Here's the intelligent reply from a human I got:

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 99 15:45:49 -0500
From: adsl@bellsouth.net
To: dattaway@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: BellSouth.net FastAccess ADSL Service Qualification Status (fwd)

Dear dattaway

Thank you for your recent e-mail message.

At this time, our technicians are configuring standard TCP/IP in Windows 95 and NT environments. Although we do not provide
support for UNIX and LINUX , these platforms should support TCP/IP and Ethernet connections.

Therefore, it is possible to use ADSL with these types of systems.

For more information on ADSL access and answers to other questions you may have, please refer to our ADSL home page at the following address:

http://www.bellsouth.net/external/adsl

If you have any additional questions or comments, please e-mail us again.

Adam
adsl@bellsouth.net

Start calling he Public Service Commission by dhms · 1999-06-02 07:10 · Score: 5

There are 2 (two) ways to force BellSouth to get its head out of its tail quickly:

1) Call your state's Public Service Commission. Explain the problem to them clearly and politely and how you have tried to resolve the problem.
In most places, the RBOC gets hit with actual fines if they get too many complaints lodged with the PSC.

2) But a single share of stock, then call the "Presidents HotLine" of your local RBOC. Complain that you are a Linux user **AND** a shareholder and that you are being denied reasonable service and you expect to have an action plan from the company on how they will remedy the situation.

The key points to remember are to be a) polite and 2) concise. The folks you'rer dealing with are not computer experts like you... so make sure they get a favourable 2st impression!

_DHMS

Re:Start calling he Public Service Commission by GiMP · 1999-06-03 16:40 · Score: 1

Where are you from?? Same thing happened here, Lower Bucks Cablevision bought by Time Warner, its not being sold to another company which is being takenover by AT&T.. Yes, soon my cable will be provided by AT&T; however, we are getting DSL connects from several ISP's very soon. (nunet and eventually redconnect)
Re:Start calling he Public Service Commission by LooseChanj · 1999-06-02 09:49 · Score: 1

"Complain that you are a Linux user **AND** a shareholder and that you are being denied reasonable service and you expect to have an action plan from the company on how they will remedy the situation."

Hehe, Bellsouth's service is so poor I see people
complaining of sub-ISDN speeds from their DSL. I'm on now with a 56k modem, and while I always get v90 connects, I have YET to see 4k/s, and it's usually meandering along at a very uneven 1-2k. Yep, I'm shopping for yet another ISP...crossing my fingers TWC gets off their kazoos and offers cable modems around here.

--
Mix the failings of Usenet with the shortcomings of the World Wide Web and the result is slashdot.
Re:Start calling he Public Service Commission by ShadowDragon · 1999-06-02 14:59 · Score: 1

Time Warner won't get cable modems, we lost that chance when they bought cablevision (who is now supporting cable modems) a place I worked before (selling computers in the RDU area) I had some good contacts at Time Warner (Their Durham location was builtand they used the computers I sold them exclusively there, including a very sweet dual processor/Ram out the wazzoo/mirroring RAID server, and there official statement on cable modems is "not any time soon" (at least in this area)
I'm a good 30 miles from my actual popsite and getting 46.6k connects with a USR v.90 with 3-4k downloads.
From what I've heard from our marketing people, we will be getting xDSL set up for businesses in the RTP area within a month or two, and since we run/own most of our own fiber, I don't see too much longer a wait for DSL coming to the home market for those that want it in a big chunk of BellSouths area. Might want to keep an eye out, even though only us SysAdmins, and a few of the network techs can set up a linux system, we don't deny anyone (even had a UNIX sysV user call the helpdesk last week) access.

--
---The proceeding comments were not paid for by the following advertisers.
Re:Start calling he Public Service Commission by ShadowDragon · 1999-06-04 00:44 · Score: 1

I'm from Raliegh, North Carolina.
Funny thing happened, I currently (as of right now) live in Clayton, NC. which is Sprint territory, I am moving today back to Raleigh. I called Bellsouth yesterday to get my telephone turned on in the new place (can't live without the internet :) ) and sure enough, the rep just happened to mention "By the way, since you are going to be hooking computers up to the lines, and you are getting a line just for a modem, you know that we are an ISP right?" my reply to this? "Yes, unfortunately, I am a Linux & Solaris user and you guys don't feel like selling your ISP service to us... That and I work for an ISP which does cater to to the Linux community" She dropped the subject immediately and never brought it up again.. figures huh?

--
---The proceeding comments were not paid for by the following advertisers.

Microsoft investments by Ben+Hutchings · 1999-06-02 21:12 · Score: 1

What worries me a little is that Microsoft has been investing in companies that offer high-bandwidth Internet connectivity, including NTL, the company that I get cable TV and telephone service from. They should be offering cable modem service in my area (Cambridge) from around October. I wonder how ready they will be to support Linux when a major shareholder has a strong interest in getting people to use Windows for Internet access?

Re:Whoa - GTE by Vince · 1999-06-02 10:26 · Score: 1

Many of the ISPs in GTE area support multiple OSes. The ISP I just signed up with (the line hasn't arrived yet), said anything goes, and that they've connected a typewriter to the network.

Oh, and I can run as many servers as I want.

But what if you don't want or have Windows at all? by MenTaLguY · 1999-06-02 10:16 · Score: 1

I don't have Windows, nor am I willing to pay
money to license it. What is a person like me
to do?
Methinks it might have a bigger impact if everyone
who wanted the service didn't play these games,
and insisted on getting it installed in their
Linux machine, or not at all. Right now, they
don't, and so they aren't visible as Linux users
who want the service. It's quite easy to interpret
as a lack of demand, then.
---

--

DNA just wants to be free...

Re:Lets show them are Disappointment by Jeff+Monks · 1999-06-02 07:19 · Score: 2

I didn't look for an email(Rushed) someone please post it and hit it hard.

Brilliant idea! I'm sure Bellsouth will cower at the feet of PacBell, SWBell, and BellAtlantic customers e-mailing them our outrage...

The only people who should directly contact BellSouth are customers who are affected by this policy. Just calling to complain on principle makes Linux users look like a mob of crying skr1pt k1dd1&z.

The rest of us, however, can make sure this gets good coverage, so BS will want to rectify the problem immediately to avoid a major PR debacle.

Re:If this is true... by jtn · 1999-06-03 01:06 · Score: 1

The ISP I do work for sometimes (when their admin breaks things) doesn't "support" any version of UNIX mostly because it's an encouragement for Joe Public user to go out and buy a copy of Linux or whatever, install it, then whine to us to provide the same level of support that Windows and MacOS users get. Rant all you want, supporting newbie UNIX users is *not* an easy task.

Linux Users are Better Customers by Ignatius · 1999-06-02 09:33 · Score: 1

We have a similar situation here in Vienna (Austria): In most districts, Telekabel is so far the only company to offer affordable DSL connections via ethernet based cable-modems and they also don't offer Linux support. However, I never considered this to be much of a problem.

In fact, I wouldn't want a service engineer to touch my machine, anyway - let alone the Linux installation on it: Paranoia issues (like mainainance backdoors in binary-only drivers) aside, would you want a stranger (whose only qualification would at best be a 4-hours Linux service crash course) to mess with your hand-crafted kernel and network-configuration?

And if there is a problem, who is better qualified to diagnose it: You yourself (with all debuging tools and logfiles at your disposal) or the telephone support guy without direct access to your box (and usually also without clue).

Most Linux users are used to supporting themselves (that's what Linux and the Linux community is all about) and this should make them better customers than the average Joe Windows User: give me the necessary specs and get out of my way! I would trade "offical support" for a 30 days money-back-no-questions-asked warranty or even a small discount any day.

One potential motive. by Apuleius · 1999-06-02 07:34 · Score: 1

Say you get a line like this with DHCP but you want to hold on to the IP adress you're first assigned so you can treat the machine as quasi-static. What do you do? You set up a crontab with a few http queries to slashdot and chicks-with-schnauzers, maybe a few emails to your work address (filter them out at work.)

Now, a Mac or Win9X user would be unlikely to do this, but a Linux guy user could do it and seriously annoy a provider.

As the market for Linux grows a provider would just have to deal with it, but that's not the case right now.

But, hey, IP-6 is coming...

Re:One potential motive. by Robotech_Master · 1999-06-02 09:19 · Score: 1

There are easier ways to have some of the benefits of quasi-static IPs without annoying your provider to death, you know...

--
Editor Emeritus and Senior Writer, TeleRead.org

Apuleius.bruises.from_clue_by_four++ by Apuleius · 1999-06-02 10:36 · Score: 1

A guy I know wanted to keep his DHCP-assigned address including when he was away or at work, so he could serve web pages and collect email (cable modem line), so he crontabbed a few sendmails and wgets after seeing several times that he was losing his IP address asignment whenever there was no traffic. But, thanks for all the clues, everyone.

Vapourporn. by Apuleius · 1999-06-02 10:37 · Score: 1

The metasyntactic porn web site.
A hypothetical smut-box.

Re:Actually, by BuzCory · 1999-06-02 17:57 · Score: 1

On 99-06-02 20:10 EDT webslacker (webmaster@webslacker.com) wrote:

If you read the bottom of the article, they said they're working on getting Linux support as soon as they can, so I don't think they're trying to snub Linux users (although, how hard can it be to support Linux?).

They also used the word "configuration" earlier. And with the (very welcome) influx of Linux Newbies these days, the percentage of home users of Linux dexktops that haven't a clue as to how to connect to DSL or cable will only increase. Most of the help requests here now are about PPP configuration.

Seems to me that what is really needed, rather than a flood of complaining mail, or legal threats, is that some individual or group that has successfully connected Linux boxen to DSL or Cable put together a setup package that can be used by such vendors (with a little customization such as adding their own DNS IP's, etc).

Such a package would AFAIK include (but not be limited to):

Making sure that the kernel supports Ethernet in general and the NIC used in particular.
Make sure that DHCP is supported.
Modify configuration files to start the Ethernet and DHCP clients on boot.
Start the connection immediately (without rebooting, which should impress these M$ weenies no end).
Provide simple (WIMP + CLI) ways to connect or disconnect at the will of the user/admin of the system.

All of this should be as much as possible distro agnostic. That is, it should work equally well regardless of which distro has been installed. This is one more link in the case for standard configuration files for Linux, not the present fragmentation caused by distro vendors trying to differentiate themselves. "> Buz Cory at buzco.ddns.org
"> write for FREE help with:

Installing/Configuring Linux
Getting started with the Ada Programming Language.

Find out what your computer can really do, Linux Now!
Programmer? Drowned in bugs? Ada is the answer. NOTE: This is to be considered a temporary hostname. Not guaranteed to be available more than 12 months after this posting.

Re:Do it anyway by fishbowl · 1999-06-02 23:11 · Score: 1

"Just have a Windows box when they come out to install, and then switch to Linux.."

But that costs $180.00 and feeds the monopoly that we are trying to fight.

--
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.

Re:Unlike PacBell... by gordoni · 1999-06-02 08:19 · Score: 1

Yes, PacBell seems pretty Linux friendly. They provide static IP addresses, and their use policies permit the use of ADSL for servers. And while it isn't a guarantee of corporate policy, the fact that the PacBell Internet CEO is also author of the Linux ADSL How-To, this seems like an excellent indicator of their corporate attitudes.

I figured this was coming by True+Dork · 1999-06-02 07:25 · Score: 1

I have had to deal with Bellsouth for a long long time. I kinda figured that they were going to be a problem about ADSL. I was planning on getting their service at one point and do the Win95 in a 200 meg partition thing so that the DSL tech could come in and install the _40 meg_ of bellsouth.net software and leave. Then reboot to Linux and be set. I was nervous about it not being dhcp or having a proprietary login method (some win95 network virtual device) and then being stuck with the setup fees. I couldnt find any info on it. When I called I got (and I quote) "A..D....uhhh what?" and never did find anyone after several hours on the phone who knew how the setup worked. Rather than chance it, I have to use a fairly expensive ISDN setup here, which works out better anyway because of static IPs. I may go SDSL with my ISP, but that's not exactly cheap :/

Anyway, what I'd like to hear of is people who pulled the 95 bait and switch to Linux when the tech leaves trick and had it work with bellsouth specifically. If it does, then people who use linux will just have to use a 95 machine to record the mac address of the net card and let the ignorant be ignorant. They're a telco. This is kind of to be expected as silly as it may be.

so dont support it by True+Dork · 1999-06-02 10:59 · Score: 1

Nobody is asking them to support it as in phone calls from people who installed Linux because it's "kewl" and think that everyone else should help them with what they should read about. Like I said above, dont support it, but dont exclude it. If someone calls with a Win9x problem, help them. If they call in with a Linux problem, tell them to fire up Netscape on a Win9x box and hit the search engines. Linux is simply another ethernet enabled device that is perfectly capable of handling all TCP/IP services. HOWTOs come with the distros and the packages that are needed to do DHCP. I'm sorry, but if you wont take the time to read them and look for help on the internet, no Linux for you!

Re:so dont support it by UncleRoger · 1999-06-02 13:17 · Score: 1

dont support it, but dont exclude it

I wish I could have said it as well.

--
Stupid people will be persecuted to the fullest extent allowed by law.

that wasnt the problem by True+Dork · 1999-06-02 11:16 · Score: 1

The problem wasnt being able to configure Linux for a normal situation. The problem was lack of information and the inability of Bellsouth to provide any coherent statements other than "fast access". What I was worried about was any virtual device drivers that might be installed in order to function and me ending up paying for an installation that I could not use.

As far as being a purist, nope. I'm not. A HUGE chunk of my administration is done to 95/98/NT machines and the "my outlook doesnt work anymore!". I use Linux for my personal workstations at home, at work, and to protect the Windows machines from themselves at all internet junctions. IP masqing is our friend :) I'd prefer Linux all the way around in my life, but realistically, it's not gonna happen that way. I'm just dealing in the best way I can.

Re:Linux can be a wide open security hole by True+Dork · 1999-06-02 11:37 · Score: 1

And these open services on a Linux box are different from some moron running Wingate with no permissions because......why again? HOW many Wingate servers got scanned with those damn scripts? How many IRC bots got bounced through Windows machines running Wingate with admins who have IQs lower than their operating system version number? A person who doesnt understand basic concepts is a problem regardless of operating system.

Re:Actually, by True+Dork · 1999-06-02 07:39 · Score: 2

It's not a matter of supporting. I'd say it's more of a matter of allowing. They dont want to deal with people who cant connect while running Linux. They want a simple "reinstall the software and reboot" solution for the people crying on the phone, so they say no Linux. Not "supporting" Linux is fine. Linux supports itself. Not "allowing" it wont work unless they use some funky software tunnel for TCP/IP, and that would be pretty pointless.

Troublemakers? by grahamm · 1999-06-02 19:40 · Score: 1

Why are *nix (or other non win) users likely to be troublemakers? Is there any evidence to support this view?

I would have thought that ISPs would welcome the more technically aware users (whatever OS they use) as they are likely to put a much smaller burden on support. I would imagine that providing support forms a major part of most ISP's budget. So reducing it must be a good thing.

Bad career move by Sam+Ruby · 1999-06-02 07:11 · Score: 2

Refusing to support an admittedly minority operating system is one thing. Making up lame excuses is quite another.

Not returning phone calls as promised, and thereby getting your employeer unwanted and bad publicity is not a good career move.

--
- Sam Ruby

What if you don't have Windows? by Peale · 1999-06-02 10:25 · Score: 1

So what do those of us do that don't actually have Window to install? Now, we all know that it's particularly easy to get 'ahold' of a Win9x CD, but then it wouldn't be 'legal', would it?

Besides, the idea here is easy: it's discrimination, plain and simple.

(paranoia) Who wants to bet that MS owns part of Bell South? (/paranoia)

Northeast USA Computer Show Schedule
http://www.vermontel.com/~vengnce/shows

Unlike PacBell... by UncleRoger · 1999-06-02 07:25 · Score: 1

I actually (ironically) had to call PacBell DSL support today (had to turn off/on my DSL modem) and mentioned that I had posted a note on Slashdot about how well the service was working for me.

The guy responded by saying that yes, he had been reading about BellSouth DSL and Linux on slashdot earlier.

Basically, PacBell techs generally don't know about Linux (they bring a windows laptop to make sure the line is up) but they have no problem with people using Linux with their DSL. They don't even have a problem with people hanging a network off their connection (as I have done.)

And lastly, my guy actually knew something about Linux (had me do an IFCONFIG) and didn't talk to me as if I used my CD tray as a cupholder.

I definitely recommend PacBell DSL.

--
Stupid people will be persecuted to the fullest extent allowed by law.

Re:Actually, by UncleRoger · 1999-06-02 07:40 · Score: 1

What support? It works the same on any computer.

Okay, so maybe they're not set up to do the handholding that they do for windows lusers, but do they need to?

They could, like PacBell does, say "we can't help you set up linux, but we don't care if you use it."

Doesn't take any effort on their part. Doesn't take any changes on their part.

--
Stupid people will be persecuted to the fullest extent allowed by law.

Re:Actually, by UncleRoger · 1999-06-02 10:27 · Score: 1

There's an enormous difference between supporting xDSL on Linux and Windows.

You miss my point. Wrong kind of support. What I said was:

Okay, so maybe they're not set up to do the handholding that they do for windows lusers, but do they need to?
They could, like PacBell does, say "we can't help you set up linux, but we don't care if you use it."

The comments made suggested that there was some configuration necessary on their end to allow linux clients to use the service. This is simply not the case. It doesn't matter what's on the client end, as long as the client can handle the protocols and whatnot.

Certainly, handholding for linux users will require training and so on, but my point was that a lack of skill on Bell South's part should not prevent a skilled client from using DSL with Linux without such handholding.

There are a lot of people who would never know that there weren't any tech support people sitting by the phone, as long as the service keeps working. And Linux people are that kind of people.

(Okay, so I'm not being overly eloquent tonight. But you get what I mean. Or not.)

--
Stupid people will be persecuted to the fullest extent allowed by law.

glad @Home allows UNIX-type systems by Barbarian · 1999-06-02 07:11 · Score: 1

Even have a newsgroup, athome.unix-users.

It'd be nice to see other providers "tolerate" LINUX users, or even better, provide support.

I think Bell South probably has some people in middle management who've been told: "LINUX is a server operating system, and the only reason these people want to run LINUX is to run Quake servers and use up our bandwidth or do hacking or warez trading".

It's important that we work to correct these misconception.

Why am I not surprised? by Si · 1999-06-03 09:21 · Score: 1

I emailed BS about 3 months back, asking if they would simply install the h/w and let me get on with configuring my system. Still haven't heard from them, and BS are supposed to be quite tech-friendly here in Hotlan'a.

Also I can get the hardware from other sources so I objected to paying their something like $200 for a ADSL modem that I can get for $50, and $100 for an ethernet card which I can get for less than $30.

`We'll have something together in the next couple of months' - I won't hold my breath.

--

Why is it that many people who claim to support standards have such atrocious spelling and grammar?

No support from Ameritech by jbridleman · 1999-06-02 20:41 · Score: 1

Just for grins I checked with Ameritech to see what they are saying. Their ADSL service 'SpeedPath' is currently available in Ann Arbor, Birmingham, Royal Oak, Troy, and other areas around Detroit. It's also available in Wheaton, Illinois.

They are saying no support for Unix or Linux. Mac support is comming. Here is their reply to my inquiry:

Hello John,
Thank you for contacting Ameritech.net!
We currently have no plans to support Linux or Unix with the SpeedPath service.
Ameritech.net Customer Service
http://www.ameritech.net
Original message follows:
-------------------------
What about Linux or Unix?
At 10:32 PM 6/2/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Hello John,
>Thank you for contacting Ameritech.net!
>
>This e-mail is to clarify Ameritech's support of the Macintosh platform for
>high-speed Internet access using ADSL technology.
>Ameritech.net SpeedPath runs from an ATM switch through ADSL to the customer's
>PC. The ATM platform was selected as the interface to the PC for high-speed
>service by Ameritech as well as a number of other industry leaders. In
>order to connect to the service from the computer, an ATMF-25 network interface card
>needs to be installed. The ATMF-25 network interface card requires a PCI slot
>inside the computer. While some newer Macs do have PCI slots, the majority of
>Macs do not, and instead have Ethernet network interface cards, which are not
>compatible with the ATM architecture. We are currently investigating the
>availability of drivers for the newer Macs that come equipped with a PCI slot,
>and will let our customers know when this type of connection is available.
>
>Please be assured that we do intend to support the Macintosh platform in the
>future, and are doing as much as possible to make that a reality. We will
>alert you via e-mail when the service is available for the Macintosh. Thank you for
>your patience.
>
>Ameritech.net Customer Support
>
>Ameritech.net Customer Service
>http://www.ameritech.net
>
>Original message follows:
>-------------------------
>
>Are you planning on supporting any OS other than Windows95? (MacOS? Unix? Linux?)

Just so everyone knows there is a choice by Ned · 1999-06-02 23:09 · Score: 1

Just wanted to let everyone know in the Atlanta
metro area who are serviced by Bellsouth that
Gwinnett.com is also offering ADSL service in competition with Bellsouth for the Atlanta Metro area not to mention they are also cheaper.
their URl is as above the Ph. # is 770-623-6374. One final note I just talked to Gwinnett on the phone,it seems they RUN LINUX on some of their servers.

Getting ADSL in 3 weeks. by NetDudeFL · 1999-06-02 21:07 · Score: 1

I had the same problem with my current (slowly degrading) cable-modem provider. When the tech came out, I had everything ready to go. I simply asked for the modem, and the IP/Gateway information. I turned on the monitor and he said "what is this". I said "It's Linux". He said "Windows 95/98 or NT is the only AUTHORIZED operating system". I told him not to worry, that he wouldn't have to install it. He stuck around while I plugged the modem in, and configured the IP and was amazed at the speed and really liked WindowMaker. I gave him the check for installation and a CheapBytes RH Linux 5.2 CD and told him to go home and install a REAL OS =)

Anyway, getting ADSL from BellSloth in 3 weeks. I am sure a similar situation will occur with the bell tech, although he will get RH 6.0 =)

Re:BellAtlantic Infospeed FUD by GiMP · 1999-06-03 16:54 · Score: 1

That is good to a point... yes there is no offical support, but at least you can GET it !

Re:Actually, by Athos · 1999-06-03 02:34 · Score: 1

I think comparing changing from static to dynamic IPs to applying a patch is a little ingenuous. The DHCPCD that I've used out of the box on Debian and RedHat distro's works just fine.

Now if you wanted to change your first example to finding the right service pack on the Micros~1 website, it might be more appropriate.

--

--

-- The Internet is the Suppository of All Knowledge. You get it in the end.

Re:Same old story... by wolfen · 1999-06-02 18:41 · Score: 1

You're missing the point here.
He said that he would do the software installation
and setup for Linux, no problem.

Bell South said they refuse to install the ADSL
hardware in a building where it would be used
with Linux.

Choices in RTP? by DJerman · 1999-06-03 06:55 · Score: 1

I'm in Raleigh -- anyone know of choices here?

My Granddad also owns some BS stock -- when's the next stockholder's meeting? Can you say "proxy?" :-).

--

The ISP *can* control.... by InfiniterX · 1999-06-02 09:25 · Score: 1

Remember that the ISP *can* control what you do, since they do own the network to which you are connecting. This is a business; they are operating to make money, not as a public service. They made considerable investments in their infrastructure to make DSL possible, they want to protect that.

Some apartment building owners won't let you rent from them if you're going to have a dog or if you smoke -- they own the building and want to protect their investment.

Re:The ISP *can* control.... by kennylives · 1999-06-02 10:35 · Score: 1

I don't agree. To borrow someone *elses* analogy, It'd be like saying that as long as I rent the apartment, I have to drink Pepsi, not Coke. ?!?! Who cares what flavor of cola it is?

True, I can see them not wanting me to make money doing webhosting, or filling the pipes with my personal MP3 collection, but so long as I'm 1) paying my bill, and 2) doing no harm to their precious infrastructure, it should make no difference.

Hey, they're just pipes, everything else is policy, therefore arbitrary.

--
Where the value of X-Mailer: is the true measure of a man...

Linux can be a wide open security hole by InfiniterX · 1999-06-02 09:39 · Score: 1

Luckily my cable company tells me that if I want to run my cable modem under Linux I can, but they're not going to support it and I have to configure and secure it myself... no big deal. I use Unix/Linux 90% of the time; I know what I'm doing. There are a lot who don't, and that's a liability many ISPs might not want to take on.

Here's the problem though with people running Linux machines on broadband connections like DSL/cable -- if people don't configure their machines correctly, they can become a massive spam relay or warez haven and never notice. This is more of a problem for cable than DSL, since the cable co. is both the ISP & the line provider, and one guy unwittingly running a server can soak up a lot of the pipe. In a lot of cases, though, too, the phone company is also the ISP behind the DSL lines, as well.

Look at your typical Red Hat install -- you have more services running then you'll ever need. Couple that with a user who doesn't know what he's doing and is running a misconfigured box, and you've got trouble. If anything he might have his machine rooted, which is his problem, but when crackers start wreaking havoc across the net from that machine, it becomes the ISP's problem. And since now ISPs can be sued when their users are caught harboring massive warez dumps, that adds one more layer onto the ISP's liability.

Plus don't forget that Linux users fit into the equation the same way Mac users do - as far as the general numbers go, we are too insignificant to require the ISP/phone/cable co. techs to have Linux or Unix training.

Re:Linux can be a wide open security hole by lakdjfalkdj · 1999-06-03 10:37 · Score: 1

Actually this argument is lame.

I remember a few friends and mine found someone on a cable modem who had Back Orfice running on their machine. We were able to access every single detail of them. They had cridet card #'s, personal information of every type on their machine. They had so much information you could have pretty much stolen every dime they had. We ended up calling them and walking them through unistalling it because we felt so sorry for the poor fool.

Second, with Windows NT default installs, some lamers don't have usernames or passwords for the Admin login, you can easily do whatever you want that way too.

Third, with Windows 9x some lamer could share his drives, and you can do some damage there too.

Point is, is that your whole point is mute just because you're running Linux, if someone is that stupid having so many wide open wholes in Linux, they're probably just as stupid to do it under Windows NT or Windows 9x.

Which is why Wingate is shunned by InfiniterX · 1999-06-02 20:48 · Score: 1

And that's the exact reason why many IRC servers won't let you on until they've portscanned you to make sure that you're not running Wingate.

Same story by jabber · 1999-06-02 08:47 · Score: 2

A professor (of CS) of mine told me about a similar problem he experienced with his ISP (SNET.net ??) when he tried to get an account for his Macintosh.

It turned out that the company policy discriminated against all but Win95/98 users, not for reasons of idealism or secret agreements with the Evil Empire, but rather...

No technicians were trained to set up anything but Windows PC's, and the ISP didn't want to invest in the needed training (a day or two for each tech, tops).

After climbing all the way up the ladder of leadership at the ISP, my professor finally talked to someone with brains, and got a reasonable answer of: "We'll train a group of techs and give the non-Win customers to them"

-- Submitted for your consideration.

--

-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.

Is BellSouth excluding just Linux users? by yonderboy · 1999-06-02 08:30 · Score: 1

I wonder what they would say if you said you were running BSD/OS, AIX, or SunOS. Perhaps they're just excluding the free OS's?

Either way, DSL has nothing to do with operating systems, since it's just a little router...

Re:They can certainly do better... by Sloppy · 1999-06-03 04:27 · Score: 1

The easiest thing to do is get your machine working with Windows, then make it work with Linux.

Maybe that's the easiest thing for some Linux users, and I guess if you just wanna avoid getting in a fight with 'em, it's the way to go. But it's still immoral, for several reasons:

Why should a Linux user have to buy a copy of Windoze, just to use it as a ADSL installation Dongle? Most Linux users probably got a "free" 'Doze license when they bought their computer, but a good portion of them probably don't actually have the software anymore, except maybe on a CD at the bottom of some cardboard box. And even if they can dig up the CD, they'll have to repartition HD to make room for 'Doze...
Not all Linux users' computers are even capable of running Windoze. Linux isn't just a x86 OS
It's really about standards. They should be supporting networking protocols, not specific pieces of software. That the whole point of TCP/IP and The Internet: comply with standards, and your stuff will work. It's all based on accepting the idea that heterogeneity is not a Bad Thing. Of all the types of businesses that exist, ISPs are the ones who should understand this the most.

If Linux users reinstall Windoze as a dongle to accomodate the installation, it just lets the company get away with doing the wrong thing. Next year, the Bellsouth dimwit that dictated 'Doze, will (insteading having gotten fired) set up a web site that requires a specific web browser, or a proprietary plugin that needs a Pentium-3, or whatever. These are the kinds of people who are going to fall for Microsoft's Protocol Decommoditization Project, and they need to either be educated or fired ASAP in order to limit the damage.

--
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.

Re:Linux Support by takshaka · 1999-06-02 07:34 · Score: 1

"Working on getting Linux support"?

They're more than happy to run ISDN or a fscking T1 to a site with no Windows machines, so why should DSL be any different? Just give me something to plug into a router and leave me alone.

Every once in a while I'd like to see an American institution reward knowledge instead of forcing everyone to walk through the muck with the lowest common denominator.

Re:Nope, not true by earlytime · 1999-06-02 11:10 · Score: 1

Well to clarify a bit, what's at the other end of all your ADSL "modems" is basically an ATM switch. So it's true that you can't see anybody else's unicast traffic on your line, although you may see some broadcast traffic from users on the same subnet(it's the nature of IP).
For cable, you're probably going to be able to see other people's traffic, but from the info I got from my cable company (Media General in Fairfax, VA), the roadrunner service that they're about to offer encrypts the traffic from your "modem" back to their offices, and that way neighbors can't effectively spy on each other.
but that's only how it happens on my block. Other providers may not be so intelligent.
-earl

--

Nope, not true by s!mon · 1999-06-02 09:18 · Score: 1

Cable networks are just like Ethernet networks, packets can be sniffed by anybody because the protocol is not address based and everybody shares the same data pipe.

This is not true with ADSL, nobody shares the pipe with you. I'm exactly sure how ADSL network packets actually work, I am more familiar with the theory and singal processing end of ADSL. But the only person that receives the data is you.

This security has been a strong selling point to ADSL. That and, when 3000 people all try downloading netscape on the cable network, bandwidth doesn't go back to modem-esque speeds.

simon

Actually, by webslacker · 1999-06-02 07:10 · Score: 2

If you read the bottom of the article, they said they're working on getting Linux support as soon as they can, so I don't think they're trying to snub Linux users (although, how hard can it be to support Linux?).

Re:Actually, by Lukey+Boy · 1999-06-02 09:59 · Score: 1

There's an enormous difference between supporting xDSL on Linux and Windows.
Windows:

Your IP address isn't being configured automatically? OK, right-click on Network Neighborhood. Yep, now goto the DLink adapter that we gave you, and click Properties. Now choose the radio button "Obtain IP Address Automatically". Radio button. Yeah, the little dot. Now click yes when it asks to restart your system. Thanks, good day.

Linux:

Your IP address isn't being obtained automatically? Okay, try loading the DHCPCD daemon. Oh, it coredumps? All right, download the tarball for the daemon, look for the string "dhcp" on Freshmeat. Ungzip, and then untar it. Run configure, run make, run make install. Or download the RPM, the DEB, any package. Make sure that other packages aren't conflicting. Download everything that DHCPCD needs. Open the kernel source, and type make config, make menuconfig, make xconfig, and find our Ethernet card. Oh, it's not there? Try an NE2000 clone, that might work. Build the kernel, reboot, and see if your card is detected. It's not? Try a Lance driver, that's the chipset used....

Support for *nix systems is a little more extensive, and needs a hell of a lot more training.
Re:Actually, by starman97 · 1999-06-02 12:03 · Score: 1

I think they dont want the hassle of some clueless Linux user calling and bitching about their support. There are people in the world like that... Its the same type of person who buys a new lawnmower and sticks his hand in the blade and then sues the manufacturer for negligence. they just dont want to deal with it in any way. On the other hand, probably 1/2 of the Windows users are clueless, but they can handhold a monkey through most of the Windows config issues. Not to mention the fact that MSCEs are a dime a dozen, and they are grossely over qualified to do ADSL support work.

--
Starman97@Gmail.com (bring it on spammers)

Re:Lets not by webslacker · 1999-06-02 07:14 · Score: 2

They've already had their ears scratched off by Linux users, they've already said they're working on getting Linux support up, and now you wanna slashdot them?

BellSouth vs Broadband by The+Mad+Hawk · 1999-06-02 09:31 · Score: 1

If you're fortunate enough to live in a BellSouth area that has both ADSL and broadband service from your cable company, get the cable modem. I've heard no problems from friends in Atlanta running Linux with RoadRunner (MediaOne) or AtHome. BellSouth FastAccess, on the other hand, is generally a LOT more expensive. And if their customer service is anything like you get with their telephone side...

MCIWorld has the same anti linux Policy by quanta · 1999-06-02 08:45 · Score: 1

I got the same run around when I tried to get an MCIWorld dialup account. They sent me a CD for Win95, so I called them back:
Me: I can't use the CD, I know the POP number, just give me a Username and Password.
Them: We can't do that. You MUST run Windows 95,
and install Microsoft IE in order to register.
Me: I can't do that, I'm using Linux.
Them: Then you cannot register for MCIWORLD

So then I found out that they have a 'Take it Home' page on their www site. This asks a few questions about your phone number, etc and then generates an install program along with an 'account.mci' file. You are sposed to download this to a floppy at work, then take it home and install under Win95. But the 'account.mci' file is just an ASCII text file with all the info you need - Username, password, email name, password,etc. Works fine. They are truly morons.

Re:I bet I know why... by MeanGene · 1999-06-02 18:59 · Score: 1

Do you realize that "scanning people" (or rather their computers) by a phone company is equivalent to eavesdropping and/or invasion of privacy by a common carrier? Anybody with a legal degree around here?? I am sure that if you have any proof of that (like old logs), many people from FCC to local legislators would love to hear about it!

I had a plan to subscribe to DSL from Bell Atlantic and setup an old 486 as a firewall under Linux...

High Speed Worth the Pain? by SmartSsa · 1999-06-02 12:25 · Score: 1

As good as high speed access is, I personally wouldn't want it from a company that treats people like that. I've been screwed already by my cable company, unforunatly now that I've tasted speed I'm stuck with it :(...

--
It's just Crap.

Re:But what if you don't want or have Windows at a by Delta-9 · 1999-06-02 10:23 · Score: 1

A very good point.

But if my options were the two that you state, I would probably take the route of playing the game, because I am sick of my 56k modem connection. And then support the petition once installed.

sorry, but it's the truth.

Re:Where do I find windows for my Netwinder? [OT] by QuMa · 1999-06-02 19:47 · Score: 1

Actually, Windows95 DOES run on an i386... I ran It one a 386-33 with 4MB ram and a 200MB harddisk once, just for kicks... Opening an explorer window took 10 minutes, but it worked...

Tell them to install ADSL on a computer like that, that'll teach em.

Most/Many telcos are anti-competative (Worldwide) by OldHawk777 · 1999-06-02 19:21 · Score: 1

I agree with the specifics you stated on the technology, use, and cost.

I believe that the FCC is a little weak in getting telcos to open their markets and to impliment new technologies services like ADSL, ..., and/or CDMA for homes, offices, and/or travel. Many good communications technologies have been stalled in the market pipes and/or almost FUBAR by international BS & smoke. The customers and citizens always must pay for inferior controlled services. Telcos (including TV Cable, ...) want to remain service-utilities companies that control the customers and profit.

I believe, technology has reached the level that communications can be treated as a bandwidth commodity with customers paying (the best provider/price) for what they use, and not because they are connected. The FCC may have to force the issue, because telcos will never support the concept of smart-shopping for product-commodity with all areas/regions covered by multiple carrier-bandwidth providers.

The future could be one or multiple bills from one or multiple providers for all personal/home and/or office communications (Local/Long distant Voice, Data, TV, Radio, ...). Maybe an additional PC SW application, in the home, that monitors quality/QOS, services, bandwidth use, ... cost, and then notifies the bill payer of communications status and recommends changes in providers when cost are out of line with other bandwidth providers ....

--
Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?

Been using RH as a ADSL router with BS for months! by Darkfalz · 1999-06-02 21:31 · Score: 1

I use RH on a 486 as an ADSL router for my BellSouth ADSL service. Just lie about what box you're running it on. When the nice service man shows up just point him over to a NT box. Once he leave just plug that RJ45 into the Linux box, crank up the DHCP client service, and viola!

Now this changes things by Displaced+Cajun · 1999-06-02 11:19 · Score: 1

I live in the Bellsouth coverage area. Now this changes things. Recently the "other guys" (COX) have run Digital cable through my area and are currently testing the system. COX is offering cable modem service for $30 a month.

Bellsouth is offering ADSL for $59 a month or $69 a month. Whats the difference? If you subscribe to all the services for the phone, you only pay $59, but if all you want is a phone line without all the caller options (caller id, call forward call return, and many more) then they charge you an extra $10 a month for the ADSL line. Whats the charge for all the premium phhone services? About $15. Hmm..

So why would I go with ADSL after seeing this non-communication from Bellsouth? It looks like I'm going to be contacting Cox soon.

--
Executive ability is deciding quickly and getting someone else to do the work. --John G. Pollard

They can certainly do better... by Zoinks · 1999-06-02 07:34 · Score: 2

...and it can start with their install techs. Sound like these guys need a little enlightenment. Either that or don't tell the techs your plans.

Mediaone (now Mediaone Road Runner) never explicitly supported Linux, and according to their current Service Agreement still don't support Linux. There's a FAQ now for how to hook up a cable modem to Linux, and Mediaone, while not supporting Linux, does not explicitly prohibit its use (there are many Linuxers on Mediaone).

The easiest thing to do is get your machine working with Windows, then make it work with Linux. That's what I did with Mediaone, and I never mentioned to the tech that I was planning to use Linux. I haven't used DSL, but it can't be any harder than a cable modem.

Is this disengenuous? I suppose it is a bit, but if you can figure out how Windows makes and maintains the connection, and then duplicate that with Linux, why should they care? (Just make sure your machine's secure :-) I think that a service provider would rather have someone paying for their service rather than go elsewhere because of this kind of nonsense.

Re:If this is true... by Siege · 1999-06-03 13:09 · Score: 1

Rant all you want, supporting newbie UNIX users is *not* an easy task.

And supporting Windows slop is?
To quote: "Dangit, that little arrow is getting in the way again!"

BellSouth anti Linux? by dave_bennett · 1999-06-02 21:24 · Score: 1

I attended the CTIA conference in New Orleans earlier this year and the presentations about internet access from BellSouth' perspective was enlightening. Anything that is not Microsoft Windows or Windows CE based isn't even on the map at BellSouth. Period. According to the presentations I saw only Windows and Windows CE devices were the future, nothing else. :)

--
Dave Bennett

Re:alot of people want telcos to be 'english only' by rico23 · 1999-06-02 21:50 · Score: 1

FYI, BellSouth has full Spanish support. If a customer informs them that they are Spanish speaking, they get their bills in Spanish & get referred to Spanish speaking service reps.

Former BS employee.

--
"It was me against the world, I was sure that I'd win.... but the world fought back, punished me for my sins" - Social D

BellAtlantic Infospeed FUD by laktar · 1999-06-03 11:23 · Score: 1

Just today I recieved an e-mail advertising BellAtlantic's DSL service. I e-mailed them back asking if they supported or planned to support Linux. They then replied that no, they were not going to support Linux because most Linux users wanted to do it all themselves w/o support. I wish I'd kept the e-mail, but it's gone now. What BS. Who wants tech support abolished for their OS of choice?

Re:U never get a 1nd chance to make a 2st impressi by Anonymous+Bastard · 1999-06-02 11:15 · Score: 1

Are you drunk?

Re:I figured this was coming - Dual Boot. by paled · 1999-06-02 08:59 · Score: 1

2 words - dual boot.

The only problem could be if during one of the many reboots (in windows) while the tech installs the network card, he can't figure out how to get through LILO. Have your own network card in your machine ahead of time => only one reboot needed after they give you an IP - or for acquisition of DHCP assigned IP address.

Ideally, you'd be setup to bypass LILO while the Tech was there (floppy linux boot disc) and then reconfigure back to LILO being in the Master Boot Record after they leave. Just make sure that when windows asks if you want it to format your linux partitions that no one hits the 'Ok' button. (Win98 to the rescue)

You may be a Purist, but I still do some work on NT (play Unreal) on my second machine (Redhat 6.0/Win98/WinNT). No Voodoo 3 3000 drivers with RH6.0 - maybe on Mandrake 6.0.

With the same box and same ethernet adapter you don't have to worry about differing MAC addresses.

@Home doesn't check MAC addresses - their ethernet adapter is still sitting on the shelf above my cable modem. They even give static IP's.

Personally, my linux firewall box is only a single boot RH5.2 box. I haven't moved to IPChains as of yet. Ipfwadm is plenty sophisticated to guard 3 PC's.

Paul

--
.

Same old story... by biznatch · 1999-06-02 10:59 · Score: 1

To quote the article, "...Linux users could use the system as long as they configured their own computers."

OK, I'm a long time Mac user and ISPs have been telling me this since before I can remember. Last year I got a cable modem and I was told the same thing about my Mac running LinuxPPC. They wouldn't install anything in a box or configure any software unless in was running Windows or MacOS. Fine by me, the last thing I want is somebody messing with my toys.

I guess my rant is this: Why the hell is this an issue at all? The reason I installed Linux in the first place was so I could learn something new. Installing Linux from scratch and trying to figure out how to get it all to work was really lots of fun. I would never want to have someone take all that fun away from me.

Now I understand the basic point. I deal with it everyday at work. We have a certain system that uses Unix servers and NT clients. When a trouble call comes in for that system the support staff just say, "Server is running fine, must be an NT issue. Call them." When the call is placed to the NT support staff they say, "Well your machine seems to be fine, call the software guys." If no one is willing to take responsibility, you may never get your problem solved.

So basically I can see why people are making a stink. I would be frustrated if I called up my cable provider and all they told me was, "Oh you use Linux? Sorry, we don't support that." But that, my friends is the price we pay for being visionaries. For less than 50 bucks I turned an old PowerMac clone into a web server and a firewall. For that, I'm willing to forgo whatever support is offered with a mainstream OS.

Re:Same old story... by biznatch · 1999-06-03 03:17 · Score: 1

I think I'll put an "I'm Stupid" sticker on my head for today.

All right, so it's company policy for BellSouth not to install on Linux machines. Is that because Linux isn't listed as a supported system or are they specifically NOT installing on Linux? Interested, I looked through my cable provider's policy today and it actually states something similar. They support Windows9X/NT and MacOS 7.X an up. It doesn't mention Linux directly and it doesn't say they won't install on other types of systems - however, it DOES say that they will only install on supported systems.

So I guess it only matters if you get cable/dsl guy that gives a damn. The guy that set up my service said he didn't care if I hooked it up to a toaster, just as long as I could show him it worked. He said they were required to run a small application that tests connectivity. (If that's all the QA they do, why not just write a Java app that does the same thing?)

On one hand I understand BellSouth's side. If they support Windows/MacOS they cover most of the ground. Once they jump into Linux-land things start to get more expensive. On the other hand there should be some kind of option for service that says, give me the box and go away. Preferably at a discount...

Another vendor that doesn't get it by mwood · 1999-06-02 19:54 · Score: 1

*sigh* Another case of confusion over what "support" means. Probably the telco is really saying, "we're not ready to hold your hand if Netscape crashes or you can't figure out which button to push to collect your email, if you use Linux." But, who cares about that? Just sell me bandwidth, demonstrate that your equipment is functional, and get out of my house so *I* can set my machine up. If you can get the bits onto my LAN I can get them off again.

Telcos have had this problem for years, that they're fixated on controlling the whole communication process when they've got scads of customers who just want bandwidth and *prefer* to handle everything above Layer 1 themselves.

Re:Do it anyway by byeo · 1999-06-03 15:21 · Score: 1

When the engineers came to install ADSL in my house (BT Engineers (I live in London)) they never looked at the PC.

All the checking of the ADSL hardware was done remotely i.e. they didn't need/want to see my machine using it.

I'd gone to a lot of trouble to borrow a Windows 98 machine for the day, since they said they didn't support linux, especially on laptops as in my case.

So I agree, do it anyway, you could always say that the Windows9X is broken today!

You know WHY BS.net doesn't "like" Linux by opencode · 1999-06-02 21:06 · Score: 1

Believe it or not, this is not an anti-Linuc campaign, but rather a training issue.

I'm not saying it would take more than a few hours to train the installers to configure ADSL from the Linux shell (dhcpcd takes moments to set up); but why train them when it only affects a small percentage of users?

That be said, let the feedback to BS.net begin !!

How else will they get the picture that Linux is desktop-friendly, not just another hard-to-support OS ?

--
"He who questions training trains himself at asking questions." - The Sphinx, Mystery Men (1999)

On a (sorta) related subject... by LocalH · 1999-06-02 12:06 · Score: 1

I'm one of the lucky ones. My local cable co./ISP offers unlimited bidirectional cable access for $29.95/mo. I emailed them with one single question:

"Does cable access require Win9x/NT or can I use the OS of my choice?"

The response:

"It doesn't matter what OS you use, as long as it can drive the Ethernet card that will be used."

They didn't mention whether or not Linux, etc. would be offered tech support, but I know that any experienced Linux user will be his/her own tech support. At least I don't have to worry about "We're sorry, we don't support Linux or anything other than Win9x/NT/MacOS, please purchase Windows and call us back..." when I order it.

Of course, they mentioned the ubitiquous (at least recently) 'We don't allow our users to run servers [referring to http/ftp] on a cable modem.' However, I can bind Apache to some unusual port (i.e. - anything but 80 or 8080) and say 'I also use my machine for web development, and that is where I have placed my testbed server, so users scanning IPs for web servers will hopefully not find mine.' :)
_______
Scott Jones
Newscast Director / WKPT-TV 19
Game Show Fan / C64 Coder

--
FC Closer

Re:I bet I know why... by hanway · 1999-06-02 08:00 · Score: 1

I'll bet an RBOC can get into a lot of trouble with the local PUC's and the FCC by refusing to provide a service to a customer solely because of that customer's choice of equipment. That's one step down the slippery slope toward requiring you to lease your phones from Ma Bell, which is one of the reasons we have RBOC's now instead of Ma Bell.

It's one thing to not provide tech support for every possible OS. It's another to deny service altogether.

Linux users TOO technical by twdorris · 1999-06-02 18:28 · Score: 1

My wife works for Bell Atlantic in the DC, Virginia, Maryland area. They're currently running an ADSL trial here and, of course, we wanted to sign up as "friendlies". We were denied. The reason was flatly stated that "Linux users are too technical".

BA was interested in people they could hand-hold through the process. They were not interested in having someone on their network that could "get around certain roadblocks". I'm not 100% sure what those roadblocks are, but it is apparent that at least in this area, BA's reason for not supporting Linux is that they're afraid Linux users are smarter than they are... I didn't fuss about this too much because, as it turns out, our geographical area isn't support anyway. Oh well.

I bet I know why... by Vladinator · 1999-06-02 07:21 · Score: 3

Most likely for the same reason I had Linux on my primary machine when I was a cable modem user in San Diego. the ISP (@Home) loved to port scan people, and it's just too darn easy to drop those packets if you know how to configure your system. People running servers on 9x were routinely harrased by the admins, but those of us on Linux didn't have this problem for obvious reasons.

Most of the people I know at SWB Communications don't linux because of this, and other, simmilar issues. It basically amounts to the ISP wanting to maintain control, which isn't necessarily a "bad thing(tm)", but which I personally find distateful.

Sorry if I misspelled alot of words. See below.

... "I have no respect for a man who can only spell a word one way."
- Samuel Clemens A.K.A. Mark Twain

"I have no respect for a man who can only spell a word one way." - Mark Twain

--

"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion." - Jed Babbin

I'm using BellSouth ADSL with Linux by vatavian · 1999-06-02 21:18 · Score: 1

We were actually using NT as our firewall for the office at the time (dialing up and sharing the modem with WinGate) so it was not a problem for them to see a Windows computer when they came for the install. After much trouble with WinGate, I convinced them to let me try Linux on the firewall and we are never going back.
There was some trouble when for a while we were switching frequently between Linux, NT, and 95, but I think that was related to BellSouth's DHCP server being down frequently. Now if they would just offer us a static IP...

Re:Interesting reading on the subject by donarb · 1999-06-02 11:27 · Score: 1

That article was about Bell Atlantic, not Bell South, but the same principals apply. These phone companies don't have time or money to train all their employees in every OS. I do wish they would allow users to configure their own equipment if they are knowledgeable enough, I mean, we're not talking about Grandma getting Redhat to send email to her friends in Florida.

Ummm what about.... by NetworkDespot · 1999-06-02 20:14 · Score: 1

the fact that I live in Atlanta and know guys who work at BellSouth and use Linux in their freaking office??!!!

--
-- Segmentaion Fault (core dumped)

Re:alot of people want telcos to be 'english only' by Panoramix · 1999-06-02 23:59 · Score: 1

Yes, I'm pretty sure there are. Those are the suckers that give gringos their bad name in the world.

I also know that not everyone of you is that stupid. There's a lot of thinking people in the US. Fortunately.

Regards,
César Big Bad Mexican Rincón

If this is true... by schon · 1999-06-02 08:36 · Score: 1

If this is true, then it shows that the big corps have their heads up
their collective arses...

I work for a small ISP that provides DSL service (HDSL and RADSL,) and
we actually PREFER it if our customers are running linux... it makes
troubleshooting very simple.. (no need to guess if the problem is with
the RTU or the machine..)

I'm guessing the "large corporation" mentality is to blame here...

RRemove the possibility to claim incompatibility by cynicthe · 1999-06-02 20:22 · Score: 1

Then tell them you switched. Skip the multiple machine online bit if you've done that. Even tell them how to configure if possible. If they shut your connection down complain.

Might add that setup configurations are the customer's choice.

--
The ship sank. Get over it. (This sig was cut out from another's shirt and painstakingly hand-posted)

Re:'Unix workstation...' by Mayor_Quimby · 1999-06-02 11:13 · Score: 1

Depending on the DSL technology that is being used, a POTS splitter may be required on some customer premises to split the frequency range for the DSL modem and the POTS line. With the g.Lite "standard" growing in acceptance, the day is very close to you being able to pick up a g.Lite modem in your local computer store and plugging it and going, much like high-speed modems or ISDN terminal adapters. Until then, work has to be done by a CTS tech to insure that the CPE can see the DSLAMs at the Central Office (CO).

--
________________
'Diamond' Joe Quimby

Quitcherbitchin! by RiotNrrd · 1999-06-02 17:54 · Score: 1

Although I wasn't there, I can make a pretty good prediction at what happened. If Bellsouth is anything like Time-Warner, this is probably pretty accurate. A month before the incident, an unemployed high-school dropout sees an ad in the local classifieds: "Work with computers! Free 3 - week training class! Up to $9/hr.!" The dropout decides to check it out. The next three weeks are pretty grueling, but in the end, he has an A+ certification and an MCSE. Thank Dog for those Fasttrack courses! He is given a nice Bellsouth truck and clean new uniform. When he goes to install dude's DSL stuff, he can't find the "Start" button no the desktop. As a matter of fact, the only thing on the screen is a login prompt. Confused, he calls in to his supervisor and asks for advice. The supervisor, not wanting to explain the concept and/or installation procedure for Linux, tells him, "Just tell 'em you can't install the client software and get back here. You've got 3 more installs to do this afternoon!"

Simple solution: Re-install Win9x and have the guy hook up the DSL crap. Once he's gone, put Linux back on the box and configure it yourself. That's what I did with Roadrunner.

This is not a good sign for people wanting to push Linux into the mainstream. People need to understand that, while it has managed to gain alot of attention recently, it is still not ready for prime time. Companies like Linux Care are a step in the right direction. One more step in the right direction would be the abandonment of the "elitest prick" mentality held by alot of Linux users that I have met. I've met people that thought that they were the Kwisatz Haderach just because they could install and partially configure a microcomputer operating system. Yes, it does require a modicum of intelligence to get Linux to recognize a Zip drive and no, you are not the universal superbeing because you can do it. If the guy had just said, "Oh, I understand that you don't have a client for Linux just yet. Could you go ahead and hook everything else up anyway?", things might have gone differently. I'll bet that if someone would write a client and donate it to BellSouth, they would be more than happy to distribute it.

same thing happened to me with cable. by derF024 · 1999-06-02 10:18 · Score: 1

When i first set up my cable connection with optimum online, i was told "we only support Windows 3.x and 95, we plan to support MacOS soon, but we will not install it on other os's". i was running 95 at the time, but was planning to install linux when i got the high speed connection.
i got the line up on 95, then eMailed the tech support address, asking when linux would be supported. they replied "not soon", but he sent me the addresses of web sites that guided me through setting up the cable on linux, and he only said that they wouldn't give tech support for linux systems.

xDSL Hell in Philadelphia by Paul_Taylor · 1999-06-02 19:29 · Score: 1

Trying to get XDSL in Philadelphia is like the
Cheese shop skit from Monty Python:
Do you have ADSL in this area?
no.
SDSL?
yes. wait, no.
Cable Modem?
Fresh out.
Do you have any high speed internet access?
Yes!
Can I get some?
no.

Damn.

Re:xDSL Hell in Philadelphia by MustardMan · 1999-06-02 19:38 · Score: 1

I agreee wholeheartedly... I am also a philadelphian who craves bandwidth (recently moved out of a dorm room and miss the fast ethernet LAN connected to a T-3 :drool:) I made the :cough: choice of attempting to go with flashcom, and, after being assured about a month ago that I would be contacted in 10 days to setup a time to make the connection, I recently (yesterday, read: much beyond the supposed 10 day waiting period) anyway, I recently found out that the hardware that allows this sort of stuff do happen hadn't even been installed at my local loop yet, so naturally it will be some time. If everything, and I quote, goes "according to plan" the hardware will be installed by the 10th, and I will have my line installed in a minumum of 4-6 weeks after that... which will work out to be close to 3 months after my handy-dandy flashcom salesman told me that he could give me T-1 speed to my doorstep with no problems whatsoever... now where did I put that shotgun again???

Tell a man that there are 400 Billion stars and he'll believe you

Where do I find windows for my Netwinder? by coyote-san · 1999-06-02 07:48 · Score: 1

So, bright guy, where do I find windows for my netwinder? Or Alpha? (Since some people have reported that Windows NT is also not "supported"?) Or my M68K? Or sparc? Or ...

Or even for my i386's? I might still have Windows 3.1 on floppy, somewhere, but I've been building my systems from components for over five years. Are you suggesting it's reasonable for me to spend $200 for a new copy of Windows? Or perhaps you recommend I just buy a new PC with Windows preinstalled.

God, only Microsoft apologists would come up with the concept of disposable operating systems and/or disposable PCs.

--
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken

"Troublemakers" or "troubleshooters"? by coyote-san · 1999-06-02 09:40 · Score: 1

I'm sure many people at my ISPs think of me as a "troublemaker," although not for the reasons you cited.

I'm also sure that the technically aware tech support appreciate the detailed feedback I occasionally provide. E.g., instead of simply calling up and bitching that my newsreader crashed, I sent them a message giving the exact name of an illegally formed newsgroup name. (It was one character longer than the RFC allows, and this coincidently exposed an overflow bug in my newsreader.) I've also identified potential problems with modems where some connections, but not all, show extremely slow performance, instead of just bitching about bad performance.

Of course, I'm sure this pisses off the "we are GOD" crowd common among the lesser orders of system administrators, but all of the good sysadmins I know appreciate all of the useful help they can get.

--
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken

Re:a lot of people want telcos to be 'english only by coyote-san · 1999-06-03 06:11 · Score: 1

Um, just to be clear I know that telcos offer support in Spanish, and all allow customers to speak whatever language they choose even if they can't offer customer support in that language.

The point was 'why would a telco want customers to speak English (only) to each other?' The only possible reason is that it makes it easier to eavesdrop.

Likewise, it's one thing for a telco to insist that digitial service customers use TCP/IP. It is not reasonable for the telco to pay particular attention to the payload of those packets, whether you connect to unusual ports (vs. doing something suspicious like port scanning), etc. And they most definitely shouldn't be demanding that customers run telco provided software on their system ("special version of internet explorer") - it would be far too easy for the "enhancements" to include functionality that no customer would ever support. (E.g., should the browser quietly upload all of your .jpg image files against the possibility that you're a pedophile? If you're not a perv, you have nothing to fear, neh?!)

--
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken

Also mention the magic words "common carrier" by coyote-san · 1999-06-02 07:39 · Score: 2

When you talk to the PUC you may also want to mention the magic words "common carrier".

A telco can impose reasonable technical standards on the physical and electrical characteristics of the devices attached to its network. It cannot impose restrictions on the communications across that network.

There are a few exceptions (e.g., speech which is criminal in all cases such as kiddie porn), but denying service to Linux systems simply because they are Linux is (or should be!) as unacceptable as denying service to Spanish speakers because they don't speak English!

This is where a polite mention that the other baby bells have no problem with Linux -- and neither does this telco, when the users quietly install Linux on their systems after the installer has left -- will go a *long* way. If the telco can't tell when some users have switched to Linux, and other telcos openly allow Linux boxes, then why is the telco making this an issue?!

--
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken

Re:The ISP *can* control....bullshit by coyote-san · 1999-06-02 11:42 · Score: 2

Telcos, airlines, freight companies, etc., are "common carriers." I suggest you read an introduction to biz law book to get a feel for just how much that involves... and how useful it is.

ISPs have not been common carriers, although some of the provisions of the CDA are close. The courts have generally held that they get common carrier type protections only to the extent that they ignore what their customers are doing, modulo purely technical issues. E.g., they can monitor your activity to ensure you aren't consuming an inordinate amount of resources. They can monitor your packets to verify that they aren't malformed or otherwise indicative of trying to break other systems (e.g., portscanning). But if they try to restrict your service because you visit the "wrong" sites they open themselves up for legal action based on what they do allow.

(E.g., assume they prevent you, as an adult, from viewing playboy.com, but accidently allow a kid to access a hardcore site. Since they have demonstrated a willingness to restrict legal access to "pornography," then they must have intentionally allowed a kid illegal access to hardcore porn, neh? The penalties are usually far worse in this case than if the ISP simply ignored the content of visited sites.)

Hotel/motels are public accomodations with something close to "common carrier" status (they pretty much have to rent a room to anyone who can pay, space available), and apartments aren't a lot different. They can ban pets, but they can't ban assistance animals (e.g., seeing eye dogs). They generally can't ban children or limit families to particular units. They can reasonably limit the total number of occupants, but they can't refuse to rent to unmarried couples while accepting married couples. In some areas they can't refuse to rent to a gay couple. They can't refuse to rent a unit on the basis of gender, age, ethnic origin, religion, etc.

But unlike common carriers, apartments can reject applications on the basis of concern that they won't be able to pay the rent & possible damages a year down the road. Apartments can restrict the way the units are used. (E.g., no commercial use.) Apartment managers generally reserve the right to enter an apartment at any time, but telcos and shippers have extremely limited rights of this nature.

The bottom line to all of this is that ADSL service is offered by a telco and is almost certainly classified as a "common carrier" service. This means that the company must provide service to *anyone* who can pay and meets minimum technical standards. Since other telcos support Linux, and BellSouth itself apparently can't tell when customers switch to Linux, there is no reasonable technical problem with customers running Linux. Therefore the company must either accept Linux clients... or it must surrender its common carrier status. If it does the latter, it can be named as co-conspirator to every crime committed which involved a Bell South telephone in *any* manner. (E.g., it could be named as a codefendant if the murderer simply used a payphone to call the gun store to verify the hours they were opened, if he subsequently purchased the murder weapon at that store. Already that store is commonly named in civil suits. The cost of defending just one such suit would hire Linux support techs for many years.)

--
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken

Interesting reading on the subject by black_widow · 1999-06-02 09:05 · Score: 1

I suggest you read this article. It has very specific details of the big fight against bellsouth

http://www.macintouch.com/adslbell.html

AP

the saddest thing by Clay+Mitchell · 1999-06-02 22:01 · Score: 1

the worst thing is that the service is extremely good... and the tech i've talked to are rather smart. Once i got my adsl up and running (this took a while, seems that they won't install adsl if you have a different local carrier) i've had to call bellsouth once. i've downloaded at up 188kbps, and at $59.95 for 1.5Mb download and 256K upload, its the best deal I've seen anywhere. oh well. they don't have static ips and won't let you run a network behind it (i got around this by using a NAT) but other than that, it's been nothing short of fantastic. it's a pretty direct jump into uu.net too. (though it seens that uu.net chicago is broken today)

'Unix workstation...' by cmc · 1999-06-02 07:35 · Score: 1

Southwestern Bell's ADSL ' How does it work?' section states:

UNIX work station (Sun and HP) minimum or 8Mb RAM and 25Mb available on the hard drive

I talked with the sales rep and technical support -- they said it would work, mainly because it's simply an Ethernet interface to their ADSL connector technology.

Oops. My point... by cmc · 1999-06-02 07:36 · Score: 1

...is this: If Southwestern Bell allows Unix systems, why doesn't Bellsouth? I don't see the problem anyway, if the user says he or she will take care of setup/etc.

Not Surprising by Tyae · 1999-06-02 07:18 · Score: 1

This doesn't surprise me. When my roommate had ADSL installed, he was told it was configured specifically for Win95. (It was implied that the hardware was actually configured for a specific OS.) I borrowed his line and was able to setup Linux with it within a couple minutes. Surprise :) This wasn't with BellSouth, though, it was with PacBell.

I read all of the attached links. The most frustrating part of it is that Robert Jones couldn't get through to an actual tech. He was left in customer service limbo. He was given vague responses about DHCP incompatibilities, and left hanging. (All this after he was initially told that a number of users we're already using Bell South ADSL with Linux.)

Why is it always so difficult to get through to qualified tech support? (Not a specific rant against BellSouth)

Re:Not Surprising by CJ+Hooknose · 1999-06-02 08:28 · Score: 1

Why is it always so difficult to get through to qualified tech support? (Not a specific rant against BellSouth)
Because all the technically skilled people get jobs as programmers, leaving the idiots to man the phones... [-: And it's tough to diagnose some things over the phone because the system's not there in front of you. I've done a bit of phone tech support and probably sounded like an idiot to the person on the other end.
As for the ADSL thing, at least people are getting it to work. It's evil, but not nearly as evil as the WinModem Conspiracy--heck, many places like Dell and Gateway are bundling WinModems with new systems and not even telling their customers they're getting WinModems. (Yeah, I got burned like that...)
With that in mind, it probably won't be too long before we're seeing "WinADSL" stuff. AAAH!

--
Give a monkey a brain and he'll swear he's the center of the universe.

Same Thing Bell Atlantic Did Before... by JustenR · 1999-06-03 16:48 · Score: 1

Actually, Bell Atlantic did kind of the same thing... They denied ADSL for Macintosh users. We all called, endlessly, and complained. They changed their minds after it was on the news... Yeah! :-)

Supported OS'es - why, when OSS does it better? by RallyDriver · 1999-06-02 16:16 · Score: 1

After much research around here (Austin TX) into cable modems vs ADSL I just got a cable modem from TWC. On the up side, ADSL here is from JumpNet who don't care what you run, offer static IPs for a sane price, etc. They only care about bandwidth. I mentioned Linux and they even knew what it was :)

TWC's RoadRunner requires a "login" using a TCP client (warning bells) but there are valid reasons: they use it to allow you to limit access e.g. to the kiddies, and without it I'm not sure how they would stop somebody from connecting a "rogue" cable modem - I think the modems have MAC addresses but I don't know if TWC's software tracks them.

I dealt with them honestly - I told them I was running Linux, and that I would not be running a server but would be running at least a dozen TCP daemons. They were quite happy. :)

The irony is that Linux is actually better supported on RoadRunner than Windows - I have a couple of friends who had it set up by TWC techies on Windoze (complete with trashing their copy of Netscape and installing IE4 with the "e" replaced with a birdie) who had a good bit of hassle, while I installed mine myself in about 10 minutes flat (including compiling rrlogind). The rrlogind kit is totally slick, only thing it didn't do was make init.d files.

One advantage of TWC (if you want to run the odd httpd or whatever) is that they are using packaged technology that they don't understand - in this case their Unix and TCP/IP ignorance acts in your favour.

"Supported OSes" by underwhelm · 1999-06-02 15:19 · Score: 1

It's just a matter of the lowest-common- denominator. They know that they are going to have to answer some very under-researched questions from users, and want to limit the knowledge base of their tech people to keep costs down.

Why "support" all OSes with techs that cost $20/hr when you can hire some youthful "windows experts" for $9/hr?

The solution for the end user is simple, don't tell them which OS you use if at all possible. If they insist on installing it for you (shudder), give 'em a ringer computer.

For the record, USWest let me install it on my own, and install it I did.

--

I don't need large brains to have a good time.

US West did good ... by GeeMoney · 1999-06-02 10:21 · Score: 1

While I hate to say it, US West is providing very good DSL service if you are within its region and in a major city. I am currently using DSL with Red Hat 5.2 without any problem whatsoever. In fact, the DSL modem that is provided is a mini-router that acts just like qny other TCP/IP device on the network.

Kudos to the forward thinking telcos. Karma will make them market giants.

G

Linux + ADSL -- It works for me! by skamm · 1999-06-02 12:00 · Score: 1

I have ADSL from BellSouth and I am running Linux. It turns out that this isn't the only Bellsouth.net rule that I am breaking, but that is another story.
I think the trick to my getting them to install it for me, was that my installer was a linux user. I knew how to get the network up once the line was installed, so mine was probably an easier install than many. I know others in the RTP, NC area who are also using Bellsouth's ADSL.
I talked to one peson in this area that had to let the (luser) installer play with a win95 install, and then grabbed all the settings out and transfered them from the dark side back to linux.

So, my point, there are ways to get around Bellsouth being biggots. The problem of course is that we don't want to have to sneak around anymore.

Note: I heard from another local linux + ADSL (IBM employee) user that Bellsouth is trying to require that your IP change every X hours. This will take some work on there end, and I heard that they are making some applications to handle it. That application is probably what they are waiting for. If they do this, it seems like a great opportunity for them to fsck linux users and one of linux's real benefits as they take away our ability to masquerade other machines.

--S--

Do it anyway by LuckyJ · 1999-06-02 18:21 · Score: 1

Just have a Windows box when they come out to install, and then switch to Linux...that's what
I did with BellAtlantic......

MediaOne Cable Modems Access -- Los Angeles by Tiger+Smile · 1999-06-02 12:15 · Score: 1

I am running Linux on MediaOne and it works great. I got black listed by them for months after I told them I had a Sun machine. When ever I would call back the would ask for my phone number, pull up a call log, and say we cannot offer you service. I told them many times I had gotten a non-*nix computer. They didn't listen, until I called and asked to speak to a manager.

I did speak to the sales rep, the installer, and the maker of their equipment(LanCity). They all said Linux was fine. The LanCity people said they love Linux and many people there use it for testing and as a desktop OS.

So, when I got off the black list. I called and asked for service. I told them a lie. I said I had a 1000Mhz G3 Mac with 12GB of RAM. That will cause a few problems with their marketing reports.

When the installer showed up I told him I wouldn't let him touch my machine no matter what OS was on it. He said it was cool. He just needed to know my MAC address. They put the box in and things worked fine. I let him know from the first second he walking in that I was using Linux. He said "Cool I run that at home also."

So the leason is: Large corps are run and managed completely inert fools. Where is the surprise?

Now get thee hence and start you own Linux friendly ISPs. We are the network smart people, are we not? I started a Linux friendly ISP, so I've done my part, now it's up to you.

-- James Dornan

--
-- Prepared at the direction of, or to be sent to Legal Counsel, in anticipation of litigation. Attorney Client Pri

What? Bellsouth? Never... by Didel · 1999-06-02 07:14 · Score: 1

I couldn't imagine Bellsouth of all places would do something like this.

It sucks living with a sh!tty phone company with 50 year old technology.

Re:glad @Home - Road Runner also. by Didel · 1999-06-02 07:18 · Score: 1

Road Runner doesn't actively support Linux, but they at least tolerate it and it's users. That's a lot more than BellSouth does with their ASDL service in this area. I wish BellSouth would hurry up and die. I'm getting tired of this analog crap.

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BellSouth denies ADSL for Linux users

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