Slashdot Mirror
Playstation 2 delayed again
D4MO writes "Saw
the news that the Playstation 2 will probably be delayed. Apparently, Sony is having a really hard time getting the graphics chips right, and so they will miss their December launch, and probably be in more of a Feb/March range. Sega's Dreamcast, OTOH is out already in a lot of areas."
MS is a lot different than some poor schmuck who has to "illegally" bootleg software. Plus, the whole point about the /. community is that since (most of) the software is open-source, there is nothing pirate about it.
Why to Sega? Sega always does neat stuff? I'm sorry, but the only reason Sega is the underdog is because that's the position it put itself in. Even Nintendo, which had an otherwise good track record, tripped up with the N64. It's hopefully learned its leason: not only did it mess up with the DD64, killing or delaying a lot of promising titles in the US (and, more importantly, having a negative impact on consumer confidence in the Nintendo brand name), but it also created its only real competitor thus far when it cancelled plans with Sony to create the SNES CD-ROM add-on.
Sony's stayed out of trouble, perhaps the only one to realize people don't want add-ons, they want the games the add-ons promise. If you can deliver software with a minimum of add-on vaporware, you get a rock-solid image in the eyes of consumers.
Nintendo, OTOH, isn't playing catch-up here as most people think: 2000 was always a target date for a new system, and it being released after the PS2 isn't a major concern: Nintendo smashed Sega in the 16-bit world, and it's looking to repeat that feet with the next generation consoles. It's entirely possible, too.
With the Dreamcast, Dolphin, and PS2 competing at the same time, the PS2 could be placed at a distinct disadvantage. Both Sega and Nintendo have much stronger 1st and 2nd party software development, and with 3rd party developer loyalties bound to spring up, if the PS2 can't find a significant niche in the marketplace and find it quickly, it could end up flopping for exactly the reason it succeeded in the first place (3rd party software).
You're mistaken. Just because there is a version of WinCE for Dreamcast doesn't mean that the DC "runs on" WinCE. In fact, only developers who choose to use WinCE will have to use it; it is not built into the system.
True, but the post I was responding to was treating it more like using an emulator to actually play the games. Sorry, gimme full speed, please.. ;-P
-- I'm the root of all that's evil, but you can call me cookie..
i did :) Microsoft VBScript runtime error '800a01b6' Object doesn't support this property or method: 'oBD.platform' /vstudio/includes/header.inc, line 76
When I first loaded this story, there was a lame first comment AC posting. I hit reload, because I want to see what my fellow /.'ers think of dc vs. PS2 vs. dolphin, and that first comment (and I believe its replies, although I'm not sure about that) are gone.
Now, moderating these comments down is one thing, but I read at -1, and this comment still isn't there. Have we moved on to actually deleting comments completely? I thought the whole reason moderation was in place was to prevent that kind of thing from being possible.
Now, granted, this was a lame, ac "first post", but IMO, if it really was deleted, slashdot is going down the same slippery slope the US govt. seems to be. "Oh well, sure, we want to be able to violate your privacy and free speech rights, but only to protect you from terrorists and child porn!"
I could be wrong, and if I am, I will happily self-LART, but unless I've been dosing too much advil for this flu, I don't see how I could be.
-Reg'd user posting anonymously for obvious reasons.
Not really. Nintendo had originally planned for a console in 2000, and while all indications were they were going to let it slip to 2001 (and probably still are), they're not playing any different game than Sony: Sony wasn't ready, but they sure as hell didn't want to face the N64 and the Dreamcast at the same time. Everyone also knows the Dolphin is coming out: many specifics of Nintendo's efforts were released -- these things weren't created over night. Sony took it as a means to keep consumer loyalty to the Playstation (which is probably precisely the reason they've also said the PS2 will be backwards compatible because they didn't want to take away current software sales by announcing the next generation hardware).
If you're going to accuse one company of it, at least be objective enough to know that both Nintendo and Sony are doing the exact same thing, and neither are doing anything wrong. Everyone knows the PS2 will be coming, just as everyone knows the Dolphin will be coming. When either are coming is uncertain.
The very notion that anybody would have bought a Genesis puts an interesting light on the idea
that American consumers will buy just about any junky thing so long as it has a good advertising campaign
(in Japan Sega wasn't even a contender.. Nintendo won hands down).
Hey! I was playing (and thoroughly enjoying) Sonic 2 only this weekend. Got further than ever before, too. Does this make me an idiot?
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I would be anxios to see the Dolphin, but Nintendo seems to have lost my two favorite game series (Final Fantasy and Mega Man) to the Playstation, and Playstation seems to get better games in general.
I got a saturn, and I didn't get screwed. Check out your funcoland catalog, there was quite a library for that dual cpu 32 console. Plus, last year most of those games could be bought for pennies on the dollar. You could get a $40 game for $0.99. The retailers got screwed, if you were smart, you didn't. If you were bumd and sold back your saturn as soon as it wasn't cool (and missed panzer dragoon saga xmen versus street fighter and bunring rangers.) Then you screwed yourself.
i am posting this with the dc browser! i dont care about psx2 no more...this shit is dope!
Well, after rereading my post a few more times.. I've come to the inevitable conclusion that I never really committed myself to any one opinion or another with regards to this question (and others like it). Saying that one idea casts an interesting light on another doesn't mean.. well, much of anything. It was purposefully vague. Unlike many others, I at least attempt to choose my words carefully. Of course, it's not always possible to be 100% clear and concise, especially since many people I've come across like to read way, way, waaay too deep into.. almost everything, I guess. The world isn't completely populated by ulterior motives and overly subtle "you've got to read in between the lines" commentary.
And just to let you know where I stand on things, I happen to like all of the Sonic games (well, the ones for Genesis, anyway), although I still don't think the Genesis was a good game system because a) it was technically inferior to the SNES (even though the Fatal Fury for Sega was much, much better than the SNES port) and b) aside from Sonic (even though he sure beats Mario as a mascot) there weren't very many actually good games for Genesis as compared to the Super Nintendo. Is that a verbose enough response to curtail further trolling in the area of Sega vs. Nintendo? Probably not, but hey. Kirk out.
~ Kish
It was blackbelt not dural & katana was the japanese one...
stty erase ^H
It is not like nintendo and sega are sitting there saying, "now why didn't I think of that?" There have been several backwardly compatible consoles, and it was never a big selling point. Examples: the atari 5200 (or was it 7800) played 2600 games. Basically made the 5200 an expensive 2600 -- and nintendo kicked atari's butt. The genesis/mega drive played master/game gear games with a converter. Not many people know about it because not meny people cared. Coleco vision played 2600 games with a converter -- they quickly got sued. The 32x, sega CD and would be Neptune were pathetic attempts at backward compatibilty -- let's not even go there. I might also add the backward compatibilty is what makes PCs suck. Even we weren't stuck with chips that are made to run 8088 programs, PCs would rock much more. And by the time the psx2 is out, most people won't care about psx1 games. And those who do won't mind having more wires out of their television. Or, you could just get an emulator. Does anyone care about SNES games anymore? To bad the N64 doesn't play them :|
Bingo. The Emotion Engine is a huge sucker. The thing is 279mm^2 at 0.25 microns. I'm not sure what a Pentium III or Athlon measures, but the MPR I have here states that 180mm^2 is considered dangerously large. Yeilds are probably not going to be too good on this thing.
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So, by your logic, we should ignore anything that needs improvement, simply because it is not "fully implemented" or "fully supported?" It doesn't matter whether or not there are games at launch that fully support the connectivity features. The design of the console is poorly concieved for that purpose. How many people do you think are going to go out and purchase the upgraded modem in the future? Only those that think like us. The vast majority of users, like my brother, are going to assume that they bought a fully functional and implemented design, and won't need to upgrade. What systems prior to this had the major upgrades planned that Sega does?
Again, I say that as a game console, it's a good buy, but if you're looking for the entire package that was promised, look elsewhere. As a game console, I really enjoy it, but, then again, I got mine free.
Saga would have been better off waiting a little while longer and releasing the entire package so that there would be no need for major modifications.
As for the browser: many of the planned game releases will require users to connect, and there will be online gaming forums and such for the Dreamcast. My concern is that it will be rather difficult for novice users to get there, and just annoying for those of us who are more experienced. It would have been better if they had left the browser out, and just had the games connect themselves up.
"137!! Why 137!"
Then write your games on your PC. Consoles aren't meant for programming, they're meant for gaming. There's no reason to introduce the complexity that this would dictate to every consumer model and there's no reason Sony, etc., shouldn't strictly enforce what software is running on their machines. Opening up a console in this way makes them nothing more than PCs geared towards gaming, a niche that is already filled. Consoles are, essentially, high-tech toys, capable of being used by kids on up to the aged with no worries about accidentally deleting something important or upgrades or programming environments.
Consumer electronics seems like the only field of business that, continuously over the past few decades, have gotten things right time and time again: Keep It Simple, Stupid. It's not the best or only model, but it is a model that works in this case. An open console is just as bound for failure as a web-browsing drying machine. Most people don't need it, don't want it, and won't shell out the extra cash for it. If you don't like it: tough. Not every proprietary system is evil or wrong. The spread of the GNU and OpenSource philosophy into these fields is non-sensical. It makes sense in computers, but it adds too much complexity and philosophy behind things that should be, "Plug it in, turn it on."
Allow me to reiterate: most people don't need it, most people don't want it (at least, not until they're told they want it), and most people won't pay the extra money until they need it and/or want it.
Have you any idea how much of the cost of your average console, or game for that matter, is distributer and retail markup, and dont forget that the cost of any console system is more than just the component cost to manufacture you also have to take into account the R&D budget, this has to be made back as well. The reason that consoles start off so highly priced, then drop rapidly is that as the manufacturer pay off their R&D costs, and start making enough on the Games they pass the saving back to the consumer.
On a secondary note, Sony have already made inroads into programability with the PSX, with their Net Yaroze project, where you get everything you need to develop software for the PSX (except a PC or Mac) in one box, of course the libraries are a cut down version of the full developement libraries, I forget how much they cost now but I believe it's about $200, compared with the cost of a full developement kit this is a bargain, infact compared to the cost of a PC this is cheap, and the libraries are easier to use than DirectX, and you're only programming for one specification. I'm wondering if Sony will do something similar with the PSII.
Oh BTW someone also has to pay for the QC on all those extra games, Sony submission can take several months at the moment, can you imagine how long it would take if there were ten times as many submissions, not to mention how much it would cost Sony to do all this testing. Anyway Sony is getting much more choosey about the games it accepts for submission nowadays and I can see it getting even more so for the PSII.
Well i'm seeing all this and stuff, and I still love my Turbo Graphix 16....
Why bother w/ those when we could be doing this all on our computers.. Just hook up some game pads and stuff and Wah lah.. I know emulation would suck w/ the new consols comming out, but alpha just noted that they are comming out w/ a new cpu. I just wish the x86 chip set would start doing gflops instead of mflops..
-Ellis of Geeknews.com
You can connect the Dreamcast to a VGA Monitor. You use the VGA Box.
I guess you forgot about the virtual boy didn't you? Nintendo has screwed up, sega has screwed up, the only reason why Sony hasn't screwed up is because they have only released one console. Give them time they will screw up something. At least when Sega screws up they admit it. Nintendo acts like everything they touch turns to gold. I might also add that Sega makes the best video games around. Consoles sometimes cause them troubles but games do not. Go to any arcade to see what I mean. No, I don't mind giving my money to sega at all.
ITs increadible how you people completely forgot that DC whoops most current PCs. The graphics system is about the speed of a non Ultra TNT 2 (Its what the PVR Neon 250 is based on) In addition to an amazing CPU (The Hitachi based machines on the Top 500 super comps are number 2 and below. The #2 is a Hitachi 64 processor with half the performance of the Intel Teraflops which has 9000 200 mhz P Pros.) An emulator can barly emulate the 94.75 MHz Mips 4300i thats in the N64 (play goldeneye on HLE) well. Even a 1 GHz Athlon couldn't emulate a DC well. (It takes at least a Pentium 75 to emulate the 3.7 MHz SNES well and a 600MHz still can emulate a 33MHz PSX well.) This is dreamcast, PSX 2 will blow PCs even current then out of the water (import from Japan and learn Japaneese!)
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
that article was the sorriest piece of drivel I have ever read. guess that is typical of any ZD company though. they out to do more research from now on. Playstation II will kick dreamcasts butt into oblivion
You're not wrong there, I worked on GTA for the Saturn before it was dropped and I can tell you, trying to make full use of all the processors using Sega's libraries was almost impossible, I did manage to get the two main processors running in concorde, but there was no easy way of syncing between the two, the memory layout was a nightmare,
Of particular note was the graphics system, it would only handle quads (no triangles) and had no concept of texture UVs, every texture map had to be square and based on a power of two width/height, oh and the actual texturemapper was weird, it wasn't a scanline mapper, if you pulled a corner too far up you would end up with a curved edge, cool in it's own way, but not exactly useful.
The fact that I actually managed to get GTA running (albeit very slowly) on the machine is perhaps more testament to my tenacity than to my skills as a programmer, and I was glad when DMA finally dropped the version.
Both wrong. Dragon is the code name for the Direct 5.1 version of WinCE. The propriotory Sega OS is a very low level type of thing. C'mon, these can't even be called full OSs. Basically a kernel with some support libraries. I think the PSX OS is like 30K or so. You really are programming directly to hardware (the only way that is good).
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
I've played with Dreamcast -- though I only played 3D Sonic. I loved it. I don't know if I would buy one (haven't seen the other games) but I wasted a lot of time at E3 on it :). The graphics were way ahead of the other consoles, but that's not saying much. I don't think the graphics were up to par with a high end nVidia or 3dfx.
... ) and 3dfx and nVidia will be out with new cards in the spring. PSII will realistically be available for XMas'00 (i.e. will definitely be ready). If it's ready this spring, it'll be pretty cutting edge for about 6 months. If it's ready in the fall (I think this is more likely) it'll already be outdated.
:) but I'd rather pay $100-150 every year for a new 3d card for my PC that will keep me up to date, and since I already need a new PC every ~18months, than pay $450 for a console that will be cool for a few months, then old for years to come while I can't buy the competitor's console and still play the same games... but then I'm kinda PC-biased...
That said, I don't expect to be impressed with PSII. Sure the numbers sound good now (even accounting for the blatant lies that they put out -- don't believe anything like those poly rates, or any other numbers from any 3d hardware company), but the PC industry moves damn quick. GeForce sounds pretty bloody slick (I want
Not that I do spend money
There's nothing inherently wrong with old console games! Final Fantasy II (IV in Japan) is still, with the possible exception of FF VIII, the best video game ever.
Playing it on an emulator kinda sucks, too; I really wish I still had my Super Nintendo.
Just remember...Sony is to Sega what Microsoft is to RedHat as far as marketing dollars and muscle. It's hard to mess with giants....especiailly Sony whose products are actually GOOD. :)
Werd.
CJ.
Now, I don't have any games yet (they won't come in 'til this afternoon... sigh), and if there was a CE EULA anywhere, that's where it would be -- there's no OS packaged in the DC unit itself.
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Please people, please wait for PSII. Money from every dreamcast sale goes to MS for CE. They don't deserve any more of your hard earned money, so please dont buy a dreamcast.
The proper response to statements like 'Microsoft has never made a bad product' is to burst out laughing. The more people out there 'feeding that meme' the better- it's one thing to make a big argument, but laughter is a wonderful deflator of empty hype, and it's fun, too! :) :)
Here, I'll show you: "Windows 2000 will ship in the year 2000 and deliver great benefits to IT professionals everywhere." *ROTFL*
In extreme cases you might want to go with the Daffy Duck sort of over-the-top Hysterical Laughter... it all depends on just how funny the statement really is, and how serious the person stating it seems
Yep, I've seen it, it's running Linux. Connected one to my network at work for the developers, in fact. It's using a MIPS cross-compiler setup with gcc (unknown version) from what the developers tell me. It's running a slightly aged version of a popular (now public) Linux company.
With the massive jump in processing power and fill rate they've been hyping for this thing, it really doesn't surprise me that it's slipped. It's not easy to design and manufacture a new chip of this kind of architecture and power with a short design cycle.
I think Sony overestimated their ability to produce the thing in a timely fashion, but I also have no doubt that they'll actually ship this beast sometime soon.
Maybe NOW we won't have to wait 9 months - 1 year after the Japanese get it to get our greedy American (and European and whatever) hands on it.
They should halve or quarter the port's bandwidth and make sure the product has to be delayed another year?
;P
Will that help?
SEGA is about to launch its Dreamcast in the US and at the same time, some analysts say that Sony will have to delay the launch of its Playstation 2.
Moral of the story: wait and see.
MY point is that consoles fit better into the "microwave/VCR" category than into the "end user programmable general purpose computer" category.
Not really. VCRs and microwaves are designed to do one thing (well... a couple things). VCRs let you play or record a VHS tape (and you can record your own movies and play them on the VCR if you like). Microwaves let you heat something up. Beyond that, they can't do much.
Consoles, on the other hand, can play all sorts of games, and the newer ones could go even further by including modems and other communication capabilities. They could do many of the things that computers do, but they are geared specifically for games, and are a hell of a lot cheaper than a decent pc gaming rig. It would actually make sense to write programs for a console. Unfortunately the price of admission is very steep.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
From what I've read about the PlayStation 2 platform, it appears that Sony is attempting technologies that is just as complex as nVidia is doing with GeForce 256, but they're trying to do it with 0.18-micron etching process!
This makes the manufacturing complexity on the same level as Intel's new "Coppermine" Pentium III CPU's and the Athlon 0.18-micron versions; Intel has run into serious production problems with getting decent yields, while we don't know how fast AMD will get their 0.18-micron Athlon CPU's into production.
This complexity of the "Emotion Engine"--not to mention the support of Rambus memory--will mean that I will not expect PlayStation 2 to ship until at least February 2000 in Japan and very likely November 2000 in the USA.
This is where Nintendo's "Dolphin" project may have an advantage. Unlike Sony's project, the Dolphin machine will try to use as much available technology as possible, including the very smart decision to incorporate a PowerPC processor and the use of a DVD-ROM drive from Matsushita Electric. The only thing that Dolphin needs developed is the ArtX graphics processor, which I believe is almost done. I will not be surprised if Nintendo can have the machine shown in prototype form at Winter CES in January 2000 and have the machine shipping worldwide by the fall Tokyo Game Show in September 2000.
Raymond in Mountain View, CA
Microsoft did not make WebTV dumbass, they bought them out. If you are going to "go off" on a company at least know what you are talking about okay? Nothing worse in this world than people who think they know something, but really are ignorant.
Raid Over Moscow was by far one of the best games I can remember playing in school.. Did anyone else really get frustrated by how tedious the start of the game was though? I mean c'mon you had to fly your ships (or lives) out of the hangar to determine your overall lives for the game. I must have played that game everyday for months and I don't think I ever mastered that part. You could get good, but the slightest poorly timed thrust and you were screwed.
;)
I'm still waiting for Karate Champ to make a comeback
-JP
(`._(`._( , , . JimmyPop[nL] . , , )_.)_.)
Rumor has it that the GD-ROM format differs from an ordinary CD-ROM only in that it stores data where a regular CD-ROM has error-correction coding. I'm not sure if this is true, since it sounds like a really bad idea, but if it is then Sega should be able to have 'em made anywhere you can get CD-ROMs pressed.
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I'll have that much bigger a smile on my face this afternoon as I pick up my Dreamcast, knowing that idiots like you are getting upset over it.
Some Dreamcast games use WinCE, some games don't. WinCE is included on the software GD-ROM, not installed in firmware in the console. If you want to avoid WinCE, choose by the GAME, not by the CONSOLE.
Sony, IIRC, was supposedly premanufacturing the "emotion engine" chips in order to compete with the Dreamcast, but, apparently... However, they have had problems like this in the past before... didn't the have a hard time getting CD-ROMs for the original PSX?
And as for the CE issue with the dreamcast, that's supposedly optional. Although I'ds like to see the licencing aggreement...
Also, delays do not necessarily mean failure. Remember, Sega released the Saturn about a half to three quarters of a year before the PSX came out, and I just bough my neighbour's for $15...
The problem with trying to emulate a dolphin is getting it to do all those snazzy backflips.
And besides, doesn't anyone play games for fun anymore? People I see here are arguing about "which have the best graphics chip" or "which is faster". Phooey I say, it's the games, that'll make this machine (or any machine for that matter) and will make me buy it.
The main reason the SNES was such a big hit was because it had an incredible, varied array of titles. Now, with the N64, Nintendo completely shut-out 3rd party developers with it's high licensing and production costs. Look what happened to them.
I believe that many developers ran to Sony because games were cheaper to make and therefore less risky had it bombed.
--red
Main Unit Memory
The Dreamcast contains a Main Unit Memory. The main unit memory contains: 1. Main Unit ID (identification number) which is set when the Dreamcast was manufactured and 2. Play History.
Interesting... I wonder what "Play History" means?
"Hello, Sega technical support. You brought your system in for a repair under warranty last week, but when our technician examined it, he found that you have used it to play three imported games and two games with specific serial numbers which are known as widely pirated. This constitutes improper use of the system, and therefore your warranty is void."
The thing that saddens me, is the thought that the delay of the PS2 will directly effect the release date of the next Nintendo system. While Nintendo has been swearing up and down that they'll release their next gen console at the same time as Sony, many people have strong doubts that the big N will be able to hit that deadline. Besides, Nintendo has a pretty bad record when it comes to meeting deadlines. Since the only reason Nintendo wants to release in 2000 is to match the release of the PS2, if PS2 changes to 2001, Nintendo will probably follow suit, more than glad for the breathing room. Of course, Sony might just be jerking everyone around. It would be an awesome bit of manipulation if Sony could trick Nintendo into delaying the release of their next console. =) jackal!
Who moderates the meta-moderators?
You're completely missing the point I made. I'm saying there should be no Sony testing, no Sony submission at all. If someone wants to release a game, just let them go ahead and do it. The market will decide what's good and what isn't. The crap software houses will die off due to lack of sales, and the good ones will make money. Natural selection.
At the end of the day, all I want is for the consoles to be market driven, rather than prorietary, as they are now. It works for the PC games industry. The console makers are just being greedy, at the expense of the customer (i.e., me!)
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
All the pics I've seen show the Dreamcast's modem as being removable, so that it can be replaced with a spiffier $CONNECTION_DEVICE later on.
You are an idiot!!!! First of all, Not every dreamcast games makes use of the Microsoft CE OS, you only use that OS when you want to use the directx API, and this is good for people who are developing both on dreamcast and PC. The Microsoft CE is not in the rom to say, so Sega does not pay Microsoft for every game it sells. The OS is loaded at the boot sector of the CD if it use used. A lot of game developers are very stubborn, and will probably not use directx API, but rather develop their own library, meaning, that they probably will not use the CE. Only softcore developers who are starting out in the console world, will be very attracted to it. I am tired of all this do not support microsoft crap, sure, don't support them, but you probably support .doc format. if you were asked a resume in .doc format, do you yell no? and insist that you must send it in .ps or .pdf? Dreamcast is great, and so will be PSII. As of now Dreamcast is a worth while system to get. Besides from a few dreamcast developers that I have talked to, the CE for DC is very well optimized and is good enough. And I say, if it works use it!
------ Curiosity killed the cat. {satisfaction brought it back | it didn't die ignorant | lack of it is killing mankind
Take it from a guy who has worked on both. (In the last year).
FireWire, trademarked by Apple, is IEEE 1394. It is a peer-to-peer network architecture with the limit that no "loops" can be present.
While USB2 is hugely fast, that's no reason to say it will replace 1394. The next generation 1394 will be monstrously fast too. But they're intended for different uses.
The communication styles is vastly different. 1394 is peer to peer. A node can initiate a request for any other node and the data follows the path between them. USB is hub to leaf, to get data from a USB device you have to poll it and ask if it has any data to send.
1394 is ideal for connecting the various components of a home entertainment system. No one device is the root, etc. If you want to play the audio track from your camcorder you don't need to involve your VCR or TV.
USB/USB2 is ideal for connecting things to a computer. The computer is the root node, everything else branches off it. So if you have a USB camera that lets you record audio clips, and USB speakers, the data first goes to the computer, then out to the speakers.
IEEE 1394 is not proprietary, though it's true that FireWire is trademarked.
Neither technology is inherently better, they're just very different, intended for different uses.
First of all, if the consoles are open, there is no way the console makers will make money. They don't make money from hardware, but rather from software. Sega just spent $100 mil to advertise in the US alone, they have around 300,000 pre ordered consoles. at $200, that is $6,000,000 in hardware sales. Now, how do they make back the rest of the $94 million? through software. So open source does not work. To hack consoles, you have to be a darn hacker. I have coded for gameboy, nes, snes, psx and n64. It cost around $60 to setup hardware to code for psx. I do gameboy and psx dev with FreeBSD and linux. You just have to have a clue, go learn electronics kid, learn asm programming, and you will easily figure out how to code for consoles, shut up and stop crying. I am tired of yall babies crying.
------ Curiosity killed the cat. {satisfaction brought it back | it didn't die ignorant | lack of it is killing mankind
Just give me my Tekken {4, Tag}! That's all I bought the original PlayStation for. The FMV is quite impressive and the gameplay beats all other fighting games.
I thought the psx2 could push a Max of 75 million polygons? And when in a real life situation (ie fully textured w/ effects) it was closer to maybe 20 million. 80 million per second is said to be enough to emulate what the human eye sees(double that for stereoscopic), and I'm pretty sure the psx2 can't handle that.
If what you say is true..... then I still don't care.
If what you say is true..... then I still don't care.
I'm truly excited that Dreamcast came out today. Hurrah for you Sega fans :)
The thing is, it doesn't really matter what console system I get anymore as long as certain game developers are developing for it. I used to have hardware loyalties in the eighties (Nintendo or bust!) but ever since I switched over to PSX, that's when I realized I could really care less about hardware after all.
If Sega wants me to get a DC, it's easy. Just get Capcom, EA, Konami, etc..etc..all them awesome game comanies to develop for their system. The same goes with PSX2. The reason I switched to Sony in the beginning was their developers anyways (I still don't know what chip's running my PS. Like 33mhz or something) As soon as they announce their game developers, I'll decide then. Besides, it turns out that game developers usually want to go with the system that is more powerful to create better games on (usually).
Again, you are dead wrong like the rest. I hate you all clueless idiots. First of all, you can develop for any console machine today, using an Unix system. You just need to have a compiler. You might say, hrm.. well that is the devkit. NO!!!, here is an example. If you wanted to write code for psx write now. You just need to figure out the psx executable header format which you can easily find on the web. Compile gcc to produce code for psx cpu mips r3000 which is target mip-sel. Hack a gcc elf exe to psx exe header with bfd (binary format description). and viola you can use gcc to code! There is free way GNU psx dev kit, which have been hacked up by a bunch of hackers. Go learn to search the web. I have been in the psx dev scene, and have been using linux since 1996 to write code for PSX. Now some of you might ask how about the hardware, it is not hard to build, you just need to find a way to communicate with the PSX, and those AR thingys that let you load cheat codes in memory are what you use. You hack the rom, replace it with a program which will let you load to psx memory, read from psx memory, and you have the psx under your controller. There are such things already. blah blah, i hate all this crys.
------ Curiosity killed the cat. {satisfaction brought it back | it didn't die ignorant | lack of it is killing mankind
Intel is a partner in the IEE1394 group, strangely enough.
The reason that Sony calls it "iLink" is not to avoid Apple's penny tax. Since Sony is a partner, it does not pay Apple's tax, which is on chips, not on naming.
USB is competition for Firewire like modems are competition for DSL. They're different technologies intended for different purposes which can coexist just fine.
Actually, I've read on Firing Squad Sega Review Part I - Page 6 that they are making an ethernet adapter for the Dreamcast. This would hook up to the same place the modem does and effectively replace it. Can't wait to hook it up to a lan. The port that the modem hooks up to has something like a 400 Mbit/sec bandwitdh (which is also used for sound?) so it should support at the very least a Mbit adapter nicely if not a 100 Mbit one.
Not to mention emulators are illigal
Emulators are not illegal, it is illegal to copy rom images, but there is nothing wrong with the emulators themselves.
That is correct. The dev system runs Red Hat 5.2 with Afterstep (stock setup, the one with the red stop light in the lower righthand corner) as the default desktop. Needless to say, I did quite an *ack* the first time I saw this $20,000 piece of custom hardware running a practically ancient version of Linux and an outdated WM.
But hot damn, can it ever push polys...
Not to mention, most (or all) of Sony's VAIO computer line comes with iLink/FireWire built-in.
This is not a public forum. It is a moderated forum, and the owners of slashdot will do whatever the hell they want to :)
Plus, the whole point about the /. community is that since (most of) the software is open-source, there is nothing pirate about it.
Did those game manufacturers release the game open source? I didn't think so. Just because you think that all software should be open source is no excuse to steal.
Also, why did you put illegally in quotes? It really is illegal, it's not even unfairly illegal. It's just plain against the law.
I also object to your use of the phrase "has to". No one is forcing you to play the games, if you can't afford it, don't play them. Simple as that.
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END OF LINE
$200 for a console's pretty good, it certainly hits my idea of "Disposable Income" -- buying one would mean I eat dinner at home a little more often for a week or two. All I need is a compelling piece of software -- a nice RPG like FFVII. Looks like what's available immediately is some stupid sports games and another Sonic retread.
Ug, Nintendo says emulation is illegal, but they are only saying that because it is in there best interest to believe that. however, it is totally legal, and in fact part of the definition of a general purpose computer. The act of emulation has become "more" legal recently since the games came on CDs that could be placed in a computer and run from the CD-ROM drive.
previously the only way to *play* the games was to get a ROM file, and in most cases, most people just got the ROMs of the Internet instead of making there own cartridge reader for NES games. but the emulation itself is still legal (The PSX emulator for the Mac was illegal, because conetix used to distributed a copy of Sony's boot ROM with every copy of "Virtual game console" Bleem, I believe is different, and perfectly legal)
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Works for me...
-=Best Viewed Using [INLINE]=-
My siblings and I could not get enough of Paradroid. I will never forget the time that my brother managed to take over the 999 Commander droid with a pipsqueak 139 Trash Collector. Truly an amazing feat.
So how does that differ from Sony and their Playstation games?
Last I looked I couldn't stuff them into a N64 system - and aren't Sony suining Bleem for making an emulator for _WINDOWS_?
Check out the n64 demo scene. Check out the net yaroze. Once you buy a machine there is no way to keep you from reverse engineering it and making your own tools. Or are you mad because they're selling you a specialized graphics workstation at a HUGE loss and want to make part of it back on their tools?
so linux zelots can still use one :)
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
OH well, so flame me:
The ONLY reason the consoles and the games exist is because they make money.
If everybody rips them off, no new consoles, no new games.
If you run emulators and copies of games you are a thief.
Get legit, if you like the stuff buy it.
Or bugger off and go hang with your crooked buddies in the 'hood.
Maurice W. Hilarius Voice: (778) 347-9907
"So, by your logic, we should ignore anything that needs improvement, simply because it is not "fully implemented" or "fully supported?" It doesn't matter whether or not there are games at launch that fully support the connectivity features. The design of the console is poorly concieved for that purpose."
Now, which purpose do you speak? The online play or the online browsing? As far as the online play, IT ISN'T OUT YET! There is nothing to compare it to! When the games are out, get back to me... As far as the browser, to be quite honest, no sarcasm this time, I would imagine that the browser is targeted for a way to connect to multiplayer games with browsing the web an after thought. Sure, it is being marketed as a full browser, but it is because it has that ability. Do you think the people who came up with passive displays on laptops ever thought that it might be a security feature not to be able to see from the left or right, but straight on? No, but it has been marketed that way! I fully agree that feedback would be warranted on the product, but until the online play is available and the browser is more stable, I will hold off on my review. Think Microsoft wants people to review the commercial version of W2k yet? You can say that it is beta but why are they charging people for it and putting it on some Compaqs that are sold?
"How many people do you think are going to go out and purchase the upgraded modem in the future? Only those that think like us. The vast majority of users, like my brother, are going to assume that they bought a fully functional and implemented design, and won't need to upgrade. What systems prior to this had the major upgrades planned that Sega does?"
By that logic, most people should still be running the original version of Quake2 and have not upgraded to the latest 3.20 or whatever it is right now. I would have to disagree with you there! Plus, the first thing a Dreamcast web browser user should see will probably be some form of Dreamcast website. You will honestly say that they will not paste the upgrade info all over that site? That is like saying a person who goes to the Netscape Homepage would not find any links to upgrade to 4.61!
This is hilarious. You guys are suggesting that Sony drop a proven technology for something that is in the FUD and press release stage, and isn't suitable for this application anyway?? Juat because it's backed by Intel?? Intel doesn't have clue one about video, graphics, etc. They sell chips for Wintel desktops used by suits and other BusinessDroids. Where the hell is Sony going to get the chipsets to implement USB 2? They won't be available for a year yet! By that time HDTV, digital VCRs and loads of other IEEE 1394 equiped consumer products will be on the market in volume. Are you going to have USB 2.0 on your HDTV? NO!! Fact is USB 2.0 won't work in that kind of environment at all because it not isochronous and it's not peer-to-peer.
In my opinion Intel is making a severe boner by not adopting 1394 for it's base hardware. It's going to delay integration of PC's into the HDTV world severely. Apple at least has this right - by making Firewire a part of their world they are making a much better machine for consumers, and potentially the integration of computers with TV.
I'm pretty sure that if you BUY the games, it's legal to run 'em on any "console" you want, whether a virtual one or theirs.
All I was saying was that it was ligal, not that it would be cheap
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Have we all forgot the PRICE of the dreamcast? Sure $200 isn't bad. But to play anything with more than one player, with any kind of fun-factor you need: Dreamcast: $200 Extra Controller: $30 VMU (2): 2 x $20 Shock Pack(2): 2 x $20 Game: $50 And that's if you don't want the gun or fishing reel. Reel: $25 Gun: $30 Your total comes to about $360. A lot different than what the base system costs. Did we also forget already that Dreamcast Online costs MONEY? Come on people. Do the math. Stick with a PSX or N64 for now.
The reason why microsoft wants wince in the game consoles is so that game developers will stick to using Microsoft API's-exclusively instead of making cross-platform games. That means fewer games for linux, mac, BeOS,other non-windows consoles. Microsoft has the lock on pc's-enough already.I don't want them to have yet another monopoly here.
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Just 2 problems: 1) game consoles aren't upgradable and it takes a long time for the next version tocome out unlike pc's (how old is the original playstation vs athlon 650's you see today 2) it's very hard for a game console to come out of the woodworks. So what's it gonna be? Sega, Nintendo or Sony? Once you pick a console you're gonna stick with it for quite awhile so might as well wait for all 3 to come out and pick the best one. Otherwise you'll buy all these games for dreamcast, find out that sony's is better and you won't be able to get the really good ones.
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I agree, that's one of the reasons I like consoles more than PC's for gaming. I don't have to worry about incompatabilities, or upgrading my hardware. Well, actually, Donkey Kong 64 coming out in November will require a RAM pak, but it comes with the game at no extra charge, is a snap (literly) to plug in, and it won't mess with any of your other games. If PC upgrading were as easy as that, I wouldn't care as much.
Did you ever play SMB3? That is one of my favorite games ever made. If you just look past the Mario name, you'll relize they aren't all rehashes of the same thing (cough*tomb radier*cough) but totally different games. Sure, they all have Mario in there for name recognition, but Mario Golf, Mario Party, and Mario Kart are all completely different games.
I sure am. It sorta pisses me off that no one on Slashdot seems to even relize the potential power of the Dolphin. They just seem to ignore it. I, for one, am extremelly hyped about it. The announcement of the 1T-SRAM technology that Art-X will use is incredibly cool. I can't wait till the specs are officially announced, and then we'll see how the PS2 compares.
You're such a loser. I already bought one. No, you're right. Wait for a Linux game console. Brilliant. In the meantime, I'll be enjoying my Dreamcast.
It's at Hollywood Video and it started on July 15th. I rented one then, and was pretty impressed. So whatever Rob said about it, was from renting it, unless he imported a Japenese one.
By that logic, most people should still be running the original version of Quake2 and have not upgraded to the latest 3.20 or whatever it is right now. I would have to disagree with you there!
But that is a computer user. Consoles and computers are too vastly different things. console users expect the game to work perfectly when they put it in the system. They don't expect to have to d/l stuff. Hell, thats why I like consoles more, I don't have to check for patches and updates every week. I don't want my console to turn into a PC if it means that stuff is going to be rushed into production because they figure they can just have you d/l a patch later on.
Sega is coming out with a new system. To stop people from buying it Sony claims that there system, which they say is 100 times beter than the DC is coming out next week. But in reality the system won't be out for a couple of years and it will cost at least twce as much. Hope not to many people fell for this microsoft type of move.
It is sad that we live in a market that is driven mostly by little games that everyone must have. In the past, I have gone on nerd binges and played such things for hours, if not days, on end. But do people ot want to do something meaningful?
Please tag this as flame bait.
With 3 really good systems coming out within a year of each other (assuming Nintendo can release theirs on time), you're going to see game developers taking sides. If you like one game on dreamcast and another game on playstation 2, you're going to be screwed for money. Rather than buying all 3 systems for a couple of games apiece, get a new PC and a really good emulator for each. You'll spend about the same and get a much better system.
. I've never read an article that claimed the PS2 would be launched as early as this one claimed. The date it's supposed to be "slipping" to, is the date I've always heard it would be released.
December 1999 was the original release date for the PS2 in Japan. This was annonced when the PS2 was first annonced as a tentative release date. I never in my wildest dreams expected it to make that, so this delay is no suprise.
The Dreamcast has been out in Japan for quite a while now, and while it's sold a fair number of units, it doesn't look like it'll be able to withstand thw PSII onslaught, even with a long head start. Although, I must admit, Soulscaliber (sorry, I have no idea of what it's really called in English) looks pretty smooth on the Dreamcast.
Ah well, even Sega seems to be resigned to its fate, if you believe the comments their management has been making (they would be satisfied with being a "niche market in the shadow of Sony", apparently).
I would, and do, recomend them, for all the reasons you listed. Much less hassle, cheaper, always work, etc. The only big thing the PC has over the console in my eyes is internet multiplayer, but starting with the DC, it's no longer an issue.
I recently read that it was quite a fight to have the Dreamcast come out today.
Sega Corp. of America has been jolted quite a bit... the (old) CEO was constanlty in CaHoots with Sega Japan. He had fought an uphill battle to get the retailers to back Sega once again (after the disastrous Saturn), and Japan turned around wanting to sell the Dreamcast through the internet (which would have obviously pissed off the retailers). Japan also wanted to delay the dreamcast in america until after christmas (thus losing the christmas buying explosion, and losing their one-up on play station II).
Since then, that CEO who fought for those things has resigned.
Prediction: the first company that allows open development for its console with make an absolute fortune. Unfortunately, I think they're all too paranoid about losing intellectual property to risk it. Sigh.
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
One of the original tentative release dates was December 2000 (I think it was even in IGNPSX's PS2 FAQ for a while). No one realistically expected Sony to make it, so this article isn't really news, but at least it gives a good reason to talk videogames : )
Am I the only one, who is waiting for nintendo's new system instead? As far as I know, it will use DVD as well...
If the Dreamcast came out today, how did Rob (not Malda) get hold of one about two weeks ago? Was there some sort of preview program?
The Genesis beat the SNES to the market by a considerable margin, allowing it a chance to gain considerable momentum. The fact that it was pitched at teens (as opposed to the grade school target audience for the SNES) didn't hurt, either, but you'd classify that as marketing helping a "junky" product.
I'd argue with the "junky" designation. It's hardware was adequate for the time. Yes, the SNES came along a little later with better graphics. However, good gameplay can make up for a bit of technical inferiority. Genesis had some good games on it, games strong enough for it to do quite well in the marketplace.
I still occasionally will hook up my old Genesis to play one of the Sonic games. My old SNES tends to gather dust.
Well this junk being put on /. by /. is truely a shame. The marketers really scored with this one. It's too bad /. feels it just has to fill space every day with "something" to keep us checking in with the ad banners on top. Please try to keep a brain on the story gate and let experienced people filter this stuff. /. got used and so did we. Please choose another path next time. We don't have to have a full page of new stories every day. Keep the quality up or /. will probably pass like so many others.
I see you subsequently attempted to flame-proof your post with a revision to forestall Genesis vs SNES arguments, but I think the "American consumers will buy just about any junky thing so long as it has a good advertising campaign" comment is inflammatory and inaccurate enough (at least in this case - there was a time when the product in question was the hands-down leader compared to the old 8-bit nintendo) to have needed comment regardless. No offense intended.
If you think these systems don't have staying power try that title. My psx is now 4 years old and just keeps working. Sports games beat ass on a psx especially when you play against friends. Think its fun playing games on a 17" monitor try playing on a 30" with surrond sound, its a blast. A four year old pc is a doorstop of linux web server, no games.
I concede. They bought out a failing company, that continues to do badly. I suppose that makes Microsoft that much smarter, right?
Don't you think it's odd that a couple of Japanese Analysts start talking about how the Playstation 2 will be delayed on the very day the Dreamcast comes out?
This "news" about the Playstation 2 is not from Sony. It is purely SEGA FUD.
I got to play with a Dreamcast last week at a Best Buy and was pretty impressed by its capabilities. I got to play the boxing game that's being released today, and the motion and control looked fluid and didn't show any signs of chopiness. The Dreamcast has the horsepower to rule the console market (at least until the PS2), but it's the games that will make the system last. If Sega can get some sports games on this puppy I think it'll stand a much better chance than the PSX.
On a side note, what PowerVR chip does the Dreamcast use? I know that 3dfx sued Sega after they decided to use a PowerVR chip, but I'd like to know what chip it was...
keep acting shocked and move slowly towards the cake.
Look, we all know that Sega has ferked up in the past, and a lot of people have lost faith in them over the years. But seriously now, the Dreamcast is going to be a solid product. Yah, when the psx2 comes out, its gonna blow DC out of the water. But since that's not happening for atleast another year, Sega is going to have the best system out on the market for a while.
They've also got the best game line up for a system launch, ever. Plus the system is only 200, at launch, which hasn't happened since the super nintendo.
I wish people would just stop dogging Sega so hard because they're really trying hard this time around, and Sega as a company makes some of the best arcade games around. The last thing I want to do is see them die.
Joseph?
I'd simply like to point out that every time Microsoft (rather than Sony) makes such an announcement, most of the regulars here start screaming, "Vaporware!" That being said, I'm holding out for the PS2 myself.
Weblogging Considered Harmful:
This is exactly how it will be played out. Sega will gain the lead with a ton of awesome games getting it a good handhold on the market with a very nice system. Then Sony will release the PSX2, and people will slowly see the better gfx and the amount of games coming out on it, and decide to buy one of those as well, as well as all the original PSX owners. In short, both systems will be rocking the game world, and Sony will eventually edge out past the Dreamcast in games and number sold and then be king once more. Just like the Genesis and SNES consoles (where Nintendo finally beat out Sega in the end).
I played the Dreamcast in Japan back in June and it was *very* nice but....the PS2 should blow it away from what I am hearing. Sony also has a stranglehold on the game developers in Japan and I am sure that will translate into the US market as well. The Dreamcast has done extraordinarily well in the Japanese market however. Remember too that it is now well over a year old.
I'd take this as speculation at best. Has anyone else noticed that Babbage's (at least those near me) have large amounts of Dreamcast stuff, right near a sign which proclaims that the Playstation II release date will be '2001?'. Somehow I smell a fish with the fact that nobody's published release dates seem to mesh at all with Sony's announced schedule.
Personally I loved the Babbage's manager who told me that 'Microsoft is backing Dreamcast, so you know it won't fail. Microsoft has never made a bad product.' I burst out laughing, purchased my copy of Kingpin and made a mental note to never ever shop there again.
Okay, so here's the real scoop on the Sega Dreamcast: it's a joke. To be honest, I was waiting patiently for the release of the Dreamcast system, and now that I've had a chance to play with it...
The system itself is not horrible. It uses a Hitachi SH-4 SuperH RISC at 200mhz, not too bad. The graphics card is a NEC Videologic PowerVR2DC capable "of rendering 3 million polygons per second." The funny part is the modem: a Rockwell HCF-based chipset. Now, don't get me wrong, for a cheap game console it's not too bad. The big problem with Rockwell HCF chipsets are that they have notorious connection problems. Connections over 43k tend to drop packets and drop connection. I hope Sega has thought ahead, because there have been all sorts of problems connecting HCF modems to USR-based modems... In the current version, there is no way to update the modem firmware or the init string.
The next, in a long list of problems, is the browser itself. The "Web Planet" browser is, quite bluntly, a piece of crap. Regardless of what Sega says, it does not handle JAVAscript. Period. And instead of a nice Javascript error, like a normal browser, it dumps raw code onto the screen, which will frighten most users. There are numerous other problems, like the inability to use redirect pages like come.to, and the lack of configurable options.
I like the idea behind Dreamcast, but after playing with one most of this week (yes, my company recieved a handful early.), I've come to the conclusion that Sega missed the mark. With all the hype, it's going to be like the first Playstation all over again, but I see a lot of disappointed users in the future.
For my money, I'll wait until Sony releases the Playstation 2. At least they're waiting and pushing back dates rather than put out a crappy product.
"137!! Why 137!"
That gives Sony some time to make changes to the PS2 specs. What they need to do is dump the firewire port. Get out of that dead-end technology and get on the USB2 bandwagon. Everybody's doing it, so why get left behind in the dust with proprietary gear, even if it is better. I mean, didn't Sony learn anything from betamax?
I know what you mean about the nerd game binge... But those days are past, and most games these days are an exercise in multimedia rather than being a game... Anybody remember such classics like Uridium, Raid Over Moscow, Infiltrator and Paradroid? Blocky graphics, clunky music. Kept me at the keyboard for hours! These days, even the "rated" games tend to bore after a few hours playing... Or am I just getting old? ;-)
Strong data typing is for those with weak minds.
I couldn't care less if it's open or closed. All I care about is the quality, and SEGA, overall are the best games manufacturers/writers out there. From Phantasy Star to VF3 SEGA have some of the best stuff out there.
Sure, I'd like to see free (free beer) development options so they can leverage ye olde 15 yr old in a bedroom to write games that can be given away on the net or whatever.
But I really don't consider highly optimised games machines to be important enough to 'open source' for moral reasons - they aren't infrastructre.
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You know, you sound like a friend of mine about computer stuff. We try to get him to upgrade, but he will never do it. Why? Because there is something always better right around the corner. When the P2 and Dolphin come out, I will go ahead and say not to buy those either. Why? Because, Some startup company will have something better on the horizon that everyone will say is the cats meow. Just look at the Nvidia GeForce. All the sudden, 3DFX comes out of the woodworks spreading rumors (don't believe me? just take a look at that CNBC interview with the 3DFX CEO). Cripes. My money will be with Sega today.......
Bryan R.
Bryan R.
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance, or $12.50 as seen on eBay.....
As for Nintendo, they have more to worry about than Sega. Nintendo's market share has plummeted since the NES, dropping from ~95%+ to ~50% (SNES) and now to ~25% (n64). If the trend continues, Dolphin is in for a rough time in the market.
Should be interesting, but Sega has the upper hand for now, having an actual console on shelves and a serious head start. Let's see what they do with it.
Ita erat quando hic adveni.
Basically, the game companies sell the consoles at cost, or close to it, in order to make money off of the games. An open console would mean they wouldn't make money on the hardware, and quite possibly would not make money on the software. Try selling that to your shareholders...
Companies that want to make games and don't want to pony up $$$ for an officially blessed console development system can still develop games for the PC. Of course, they then have the headache that their hardware platform is not standardized, but that's life.
I'm not quite sure how Sony could be compared to Microsoft. I seem to remember a time when the only big game consoles around (with regards to sheer popularity at least) were the Super Nintendo and the Sega Genesis. The very notion that anybody would have bought a Genesis puts an interesting light on the idea that American consumers will buy just about any junky thing so long as it has a good advertising campaign (in Japan Sega wasn't even a contender.. Nintendo won hands down). Nintendo simply slipped.. it's their own fault, really. They had the lead, and then they lost it. That's what we call competition.
Sony is still a relative newcomer to the game console arena (well, in my rather skewed perception of time, that is), and Nintendo is not exactly dead. Neither, apparently, is Sega. This hardly qualifies as any kind of monopoly. Sony's in the lead, but it's still anybody's game. Microsoft, on the other hand, has no real competitors as far as the average end-user is concerned. Of course, the recent waves caused by Red Hat's splash into public view may change all that, but for now..
Also, I don't know about most people, but I'm still rather happy with PlayStation classic. It's a good system, and there a lots of good games (and hey, despite the usually horrible endings, who doesn't love the FF series?). I don't see any reason to drop more cash on a Dreamcast. I like using my money for desktop hardware, personally.
Besides, why bother wasting money on a system when it firsts comes out when a few months later the price will drop? I certainly didn't get a PSX when it first came out, and I rather doubt I'll get the sequel as soon as it hits stores. Back when we made the jump from Nintendo to Super Nintendo, that was a different story. We've gotten to a level now, however, where more eye-candy isn't as much of an attention grabber for me anymore.
As for closed consoles..? Well, why bother? If you want to make a real game, you might as well develop it for a real computer system. After all, why limit yourself to a certain hardware configuration? A lot more games are possible (not to mention more fun) with tons more RAM, faster processors, and all the other bells and whistles that are constantly being pushed past their current limits.
~ Kish
... and Nintendo won. For those of you who keep saying "I am waiting for the ultimate system." Please. You don't even know what games are coming out for it or who is officially developing for the system. Don't even quote me specs. There was a time when a system was available that was so much more superior. That was the Sega Master System. Boy, could I quote you specs that would blow the Nintendo Entertainment System away. What happend?! The SMS went belly up faster then you can say "Titanic". So don't be quoting to me that a system is going to blow another away when we know so very little. Sega is here. Sega is now. Sega has a huge backing of 3rd party developers. Seen the shots of Castlevania yet? How about the Capcom stuff? Wow, where are the PS2 shots from these companies? I thought so. To parallel the development of the PS2, one could look at the Merced. Here we have a company that had never really done 64bit support. When they try, the set a release date. What happend to that date? Pushed back and back. Heck, there is even mention now that the Merced will not be THE chip for 64bit but the next gen. from Intel. Why not lighten up on poor Sega and give them a look. At least they aren't vapor....
Bryan R.
Bryan R.
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance, or $12.50 as seen on eBay.....
1. I've never read an article that claimed the PS2 would be launched as early as this one claimed. The date it's supposed to be "slipping" to, is the date I've always heard it would be released.
2. I also find it odd that Sony is called "inexperienced" with graphics chips, seeing as they've shipped 20+ million units of the PS1. And, yes, it included a graphics chip that was considered cutting edge for a consumer machine when it was designed.
3. The issue isn't with Sony designing the chip; it's with manufacturing problems. Supposedly they've been working on the chip for years now, and the design is finished. Let's not start calling them overambitious and incompetent just because they've got a better chip than can currently be used under Linux.
So, the Dreamcast's only hope of making money is that gap. They probably know they have an inferior product, so they shipped it quickly before the Dolphin or the PS2 got here. I'm not touching this console any time soon.
Of course, PS2 is going to be more expensive. Of course, it ain't gonna be delayed for its December release! It's Christmas. The FUD here is so clear, Sega is hoping that by saying things like this, they're gonna be the choice #1 for Christmas console presents.
But I'll say it clearly if Santa Claus happens to be reading Slashdot. :) Even if the PS2 is delayed, I don't want a Dreamcast for Christmas. When PS2 comes out, it's gonna be Christmas every day!
"There is no surer way to ruin a good discussion than to contaminate it with the facts."
One thing I missed... is the Dreamcast finally going to use SGI's 3D chips, or the more expensive 2D/3D combo the Japanese engineers wanted?
"There is no surer way to ruin a good discussion than to contaminate it with the facts."
We know how these two companies treat emulation. Nintendo states _all_ emulation is illegal, and the hassle Bleem got from Sony is nowhere near over. Not to mention Nintendo's 80's policies which have almost destroyed Sega US and probably had a lot to do with the fall of Atari. By the time they were legally stopped it was too late. So for me, it's either the Sega Dreamcast or nothing.
well maybe not,
...but the dreamcast (japanese import version) has been available in uk for a while now,
i got mine about a month ago and i love it.
my favourite coin-op - Namco's superb SoulCalibur has been ported
and is even better than the Arcade version - which so rarerly happens.
(ofcourse you have to have the japanese version of the game to play it on the japanese console).
despite some of the negative comments posted here,
from playing with the dreamcast all i can say is i am blown away.
this thing rocks, try it for yourself before you form your opinion based on a posting.
living the dream
Oh jeeze... who cares if the DC has windows CE as an option [meaning most games don't use it]. What next? Boycott Sony and Nintendo for using some windows machines for graphics/game development? Me I could care less who makes the damn box as long as it has games *I* want for it, *I* will buy it. Soon as Marvel vs. Capcom hits the streets I'll be picking up a dreamcast.
A schedule jump from a December to a February release is as good as missing by a year. Christmas and all that.
Will the Playstation survive such a crisis?
The Register has a good take on the article.
The one point that they make, and I agree with strongly, is that the analysts point out that Sony is inexperienced in the semiconductor market, but Sony is not going alone on this. They have partnered with Toshiba who is very experienced in the semiconductor market.
Chris Kraft (Krafter@zilla.net)
bright moments wrote
.... unless they expected they would benefit. While some PC-centered groups would be very happy for consumers to stick to their nice predictable upgrade path (RamBus, FutureIO, etc), I'm afraid the world doesn't work that way.
That gives Sony some time to make changes to the PS2 specs. What they need to do is dump the firewire port. Get out of that dead-end technology and get on the USB2 bandwagon. Everybody's doing it, so why get left behind in the dust with proprietary gear, even if it is better. I mean, didn't Sony learn anything from betamax?
Have you got any evidence to back up your claims? My understanding is that IEE 1391 (aka firewire) is a peer-peer connection whereas USB is host-based. Sony is a very savvy consumer electronics company (one of the few Japanese companies to be truely international in scope) and if they've made the commercial decision to put iLink (their name for IEEE 1391 to avoid Apple's firewire branding tax), others are likely to follow. They would not have gone to the trouble of putting it into their digital TVs, camcorders, etc
As for your claim that everyone is doing it, I would be very interested to learn your sample size of "everyone". Parroting popular press with their own ad-driven agendas is OK if you wish to follow the herd but then in my observation of nature, herds tend to be driven to the slaughter house. Consumer market where unit costs are critical, is completely different from the techical market where robustness, functionality and future development path credibility is much more highly valued. For example, betamax is widely used in the media production industry.
So, to return to the point, what evidence have you that firewire is a dead-end technology?
LL
Unfortunately, I'm an extremely verbose individual. Tacking on all sorts of disclaimers onto every single little thing I say would already serve to further lengthen any commentary by yours truly into even more unwieldly proportions. Therefore, I try my best to avoid these things and simply be as concise as a writer as prolific as myself can be (i.e., not very). You have to take these things into consideration.
Now, when faced with the notion of having a 16-bit system available from one company and only an 8-bit from another, both of which were originally in direct competition with another with their 8-bit machines.. I tend to wait until the lagging company returns fire and make my choice appropriately. Besides, I've always been more into game play than pretty graphics (anyone else think the original Metroid was tough while Super Metroid was ridiculously easy?).
However, in direct answer to your question: my comment was made in the context of the time period when SNES and Genesis were competing with one another, not pre-SNES release date. And you know, there are exceptions to just about everything.
~ Kish
nothing else to say
stty erase ^H
They also chose to use a non-standard CD density, in part I assume, to thwart piracy. While it's probably a very bad idea to release a system where PCs can copy CDs for 50 cents a pop, I wonder how economies of scale will effect this decision in the long wrong - in terms of price, availability, and error control in the manufacturing processes.
-- Virtual Windows Project
When you're writing high-performance code for a game it's really nice to be able to have a target platform. If, like on a console, the user has the same hardware you do you know exactly what their gaming experience is going to be like -- as opposed to the PC, where you have no clue what graphics card or processor set up your user has and so you often sacrifice speed for generality (not to mention only having a vague idea if it'll work at all!). The only bad thing about a console is that you've only got TV resolution to work with. And 3D card vendors, get those OpenGL drivers working so we can write high-performance software for your cards!
Sega stopped development on Saturn games a year or so ago to concentrate on DreamCast. So those of us who got Saturns (it had the best Anime style games) got screwed. Sony and Nintendo aren't making that mistake. PSX2 supposedly backward compatible with PSX games, and Nintendo is still releasing all kinds of stuff for N64. And the game line-up? Ecco the Dolphin? The first two Genesis games were bad enough, they didn't need remakes. MK Gold? Mortal Kombat's reign is over. The PSX2 will blow DC out if it has most of what they claim it will have. But with DC you know what you're getting. The PSX2 is still in prototype, which is where they find out half the shit won't work or is too expensive, and the Dolphin is still on the drawing board.
I use to preach the 'Sega is better' sermon to all my friends. I was a loyal customer. I bought a master system, Game Gear, Genesis, Sega CD, Sega 32x, Saturn, and a Nomad. The only one I don't feel like I got ripped on was the Genesis (which explains my purchasing the Nomad, damn that was cool). I have spent multiple thousands of dollars on Sega games and hardware. They always end up giving consumers the shaft. I will not buy a Dreamcast.
stealth
p.s. unless they make a new Phantasy Star, then I'll have to get one!!!
Just for those who wish to compare Microsoft and Sony (a funny thing to do in light of liberal comparison of Microsoft to - something becoming somewhat tiresome to say the least) I thought I'd remind people that Sony have openly proven to be an innovative company.
I'm not a business person and cannot comment on their business practices, but a company who spends a lot of money on R&D and does what it can to push decent technology, I can't complain about. These are the people who invented and fought for Betamax (better technology that unfortunately failed) - they invented MiniDisc... which looks to be thriving and yet to boom.
For those of you who aren't familiar with how Sony ended up in the games market, I'll just briefly cover the 'event'. Nintendo wanted Sony to develop a CD player for their famicom machine. After some development time, they suddenly dropped the project leaving sour feelings between Sony and Nintendo - the then boss of Sony told Ken Kutaragi (name/sp?) to keep developing it anyway, and here come back Sony to completely dominate the console market some years later. Now they've suggested they've come up with technology that absolutely flattens the current closest competitor... who's to say they won't make it? And who's to say they won't continue their tradional stance... they've pushed for things *I* consider to be 'for the consumer' more so than any of the other game console companies (mainly referring to Sega and Nintendo - I mean Net Yaroze... Linux system for NGPS development, free-er development than for other consoles - just look at how much software is available for the Playstation and compare it to the Saturn and Nintendo. Sure not all of it is great or even good... but there's so much of it there's a helluva lot of stuff that is good)
Anyway keep up the NGPS news slashdot guys.... I'm gagging for it.
BlueSky
Also, you're likely to be able to transfer saved games from one console to the other, in case you can port characters to a sequel.
In short, in everyone's mind, it's gonna feel like they're upgrading, not changing systems altogether. That feels important. I'm always happy to know a P-III is gonna run all the games I have since the days of Zork. Not being able to do this would be like saying you cannot play games that do not have 3D acceleration when you buy a 3D card.
"There is no surer way to ruin a good discussion than to contaminate it with the facts."
With all the spec monkeys screaming about how their favorite console system can pump out 3 billion shaded, textured, bump mapped, anti-aliased triangles per second at a 48bpp color depth, I have a question.. isn't all of this going to be put out to a television that is made for general tv show and movie viewing? Without the brightness or color saturation or sharpness of a monitor, what good is all that horsepower going to do?
(note: rich kids with hdtv's can disregard this post)
I've owned a Sega Master System and the original NES, the NES was better. I bought a Genesis/ Sega CD and an SNES, the SNES was better. I never bothered with the Saturn because Sega screwed me over (SegaCD) and opted for a Playstation and an N64. The N64 is better. Using that logic, I'm skipping PS2, the Dreamcast and going straight to Dolphin. Contrary to how many consoles I've purchased, I'm a very casual game player (between all my systems I've owned less than 25 games) and waiting will save me money in the end. IMHO, Nintendo makes a higher quality package.
I figured I'd go to Sega's site to see what games are released with the Dreamcast, but all I get is a black page with the title "Dreamcast: It's thinking". Oh, it's thinking allright..... You'd think they would want to have their page up on a release date. Silly me.
Am I the only one who wonders what the big deal is with replies to this post? Personally, while it doesn't net you much of your money back to trade in your own consoles, I think it's rather annoying to have several systems plugged in or have to switch out which systems are plugged in at any given time. I also find hooking up several different multimedia devices together to be quite irritating in general.
Therefore.. why would I want to have a PlayStation and a PlayStation 2 both hooked up? I'm quite happy that Sony's new system will be able to play older games. It means that I can junk my original PSX without worrying that I'll want to play those old games someday. What's wrong with extending the lifespan of console games? I wish consoles had always been backwards compatible. I certainly know of a large number of Nintendo games I wish I could still play, though I have long since ditched my NES in favor of limiting the number of consoles I have taking up space in my living room. A person can only have so much stuff, as it were.
Besides, as I mentioned before, PSX games in comparison to these new generation systems isn't quite the leap it was from 8- to 16- to 64-bit. Sure, games will become smoother and more complex, but it soon gets to a point where the end-user is barely even aware of it. I mean, with general computer systems, you can never have enough of the latest hardware. There are always newer and better tasks which require ever increasing amounts of computing power. But these are just games! Once the image gets so crisp, and the controls so fluid, the only thing you can possibly enhance is the actual game play. The games which require more computing power than consoles currently provide would do best to remain on general computer systems, anyway. After all, I think it's rather pointless for a game console to try to emulate the features of a general computing system (acess to the Internet? Web browsers? other silly hoopla?). Why not just get a general computer system to begin with and be able to do so much more? The entire notion is just silly.
~ Kish
All published information I've seen about Sony's dates *from Sony* states "winter", not "Christmas". The last time I checked, February and even part of March were winter months. Yeah, coming out after Christmas is a big deal, but this doesn't mean they're going back on their word. As far as I can see they never promised to *make* Christmas.
I got away from Nintendo because I'm tired of all (most?) the games being Mario based. Mario Kart, Mario Tetris, Yoshi's Story, Smash Brothers. *Blech*
"Buy a console system." Why? Why would I advise a person to purchase what is obviously a few lightyears behind powerful processors and graphics cards available for the personal PC? Maintenance. Total Cost of Ownership (TCO). [Enter favorite cost-related buzz word here.] With a console system, you don't have to worry about upgrades or whether your system will be obsolete in two years (it already is, but us "computer geeks" won't tell you).
Of course, /.'ers are the wrong people to try to market for console game systems. So why are we having this discussion?! *grin*
assert(expired(knowledge));
I don't understand this...when did Sony ever release a solid release date for the PSX2? And if so, what was the date? Every rumor I've heard about the PSX2 was that it was going to be released in Japan around March 2000 and in the US sometime Fall 2000. And according to this article this is the same date. Sounds like Sega trying to throw around some FUD themselves. Good for them...it keeps the video game industry on its toes :-) -Goth
I've opened a damn US dreamcast box and there is a f*kin MS CE licence agreement inside. I wish the stupid PRO-SEGA slashdot fudders would do some research before spreading lies!
Click here. :-)
Wow, now that is impressive. I would figure, with American cash, I spent on the order of $600 on hardware and only about $200 on games. I guess if I spent the price of a small car on a system, I would be upset, but then again I didn't.
Honestly, I don't understand all these comments of "Sega Sucks, Playstation rules!", especially on a forum of "alternative OS users" as Slashdot usually is. What are you really saying? "I don't need to try out the new system, because I already believe in the brand name of the upcoming, super-duper one that has been announced to come out later." Isn't this how Microsoft and all other standard setters use their names and tactics? All this talk about FUD from Sega -- do you really think they're big enough to make up all this negative news on a system when they have enough trouble trying to hawk theirs? If anything, Sony and Nintendo are the ones this time putting the pressure on with their semi-vaporware announcements. It's almost certain that they both will release more powerful systems, but, as everyone here should know, software is the main draw. Dismissing a console because it's not popular brand-wise sounds horribly strange coming from this group. Sega this time has gotten the 3rd party support from Namco, Konami, Capcom, Bioware, Midway, and a lot of others, so the games are here this time, unlike the Saturn. Pledging loyalty to one label -- Sega, Nintendo, Sony -- is exactly why so many people got burned by the Saturn, the N64 (sorta), and so on. If there's anything that remains constant in console games, it's that what you do in the past doesn't count as much as what you do in the present and the future. Computer games follow the same credo -- look at the C&C following when it first arrived compared to its number compared to Starcraft today. This doesn't mean that you should go run out and buy the Dreamcast if there's no game that you like on the system (and I certainly plan to get the PSX2 as well, if it's got some good games), but waiting a year or more for no other reason than a company bias makes everyone a follower, and not their own judge.
Just to remember what is the "Missing Graphics Chip", after all.
It is a customized Chip that integrates 4MB VRAM with 16 processors working in parallel, one for each screen section. I'd guess.
And all of that at 150MHz. That makes for the aclaimmed 75 million polygons per second and 48Gbps data transfer rate (within VRAM) announced.
Just check it at SONY's official playstation page.
-><- no
There's an interest ing article in Slate about quirky TV ads for Dreamcast that are running in Japan only.
There's an interest ing article in Slate...
Why does interesting appear above with an embedded space?
The actual HTML code is:
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After all, it would be rather hypocritical for anyone (and especially so with regards to myself.. ha!) to take offense at a simple error, misperception, or other common miscommunication. Honestly, I don't tend to keep track of any kind of social trend (although I'm not quite as bad as a dedicated medical student), and because of this, I never even realized there was a long period of time when Genesis was around and SNES wasn't. Maybe I knew and just didn't notice. I don't know. *grin*
~ Kish
The idea of Dreamcast is more than just a game console: it's a complete gaming machine: online gaming is one of the big draws of this machine. Many of the games have at least some degree of connectivity, for multi-player or what-have-you.
So, you are making judgements on a feature that has not fully been implemented yet? Wow, I didn't realize that there were games at launch that fully supported the multiplayer connectivity you speak of. I see you have had ample info to make that judgement. As far as browsing the web, you are right, WebTV is soooo much better. In fact, I dumped my PC just to use WebTV. I guess I will need to keep that since the Sega browser is so much worse. Thanks again for the insight!
From what I've heard, the WinCE used is so identical to the palmtop version that they had to suppress the mouse cursor subroutine. "Dragon", the native OS used, has been noted that it provides the usual console environment to develop in without using any CE code at all. I'd assume it would resemble SDL.
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