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Netscape Communicator 5.0 Delayed
dougc1 writes "According to this CNET article, Netscape plans to delay release of Communicator 5.0 for two more months." Well, I'm doing okay with 4.7, but it sure would be nice to have a more stable and faster Netscape - someday. (sigh)
:) That doesn't surprise me one bit.
"IE for Unix" also only ran on specific versions of Solaris.
Not just 2.51 and up, but also with specific kernel patches for different
SPARCs... It was really sick, and I'm not sick enough to try to get that
to work. And that sounds like the same mess on HP/UX. Ugh.
However, even if you did get it to work, it still sucked.
Better luck emulating an x86 entirely in software.
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I wish I were wrong on this one.
But if you look, you'll see many people admitting that they prefer IE to
Netscape, for whatever reason. I don't get it yet, but maybe I missed
something. I guess if IE were on Unix, maybe it wouldn't crash the whole
operating system when it went down...
However, if it makes you feel any better, I'm browsing in w3m, because
it supports letting me write this in my favorite text editor.
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pb Reply or e-mail rather than vaguely moderate.
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
Netscape 5... wow. I still use Netscape instead of IE in Windows, but it's very painful at times... when Netscape crashes under Linux, well, it crashes, and we rm the lock, and it's all good again. But because of Windows' poor memory management, when when Netscape crashes, half the time it takes the OS with it! Please, Netscape: don't release version 5 until it actually works! Windows won't cover your ass if get careless with the memory!
My Netscape 5 Wish List:
**Allow us to run mutiple windows in separate processes! Hopefully, this will keep Netscape from closing all ten of my open broswer windows if one fscks itself. IE5 allows this option. Yes, this can require more memory, but it's worth it.
**Consider a more customizable UI. I don't mean RAM-hog skins, but take a look at Opera. You can move the menus, the status bar, et cetera.
**Get rid of that damn "Shop" button! Come on! What next, the Netscape/Pepsi/Pizza Hut broswer? We knows you're strapped for cash, but really...
Just my two yen.
--
I like to watch.
it's pr0n dude, pr0n!
i thought I had no sig?
How long as CSS been out and Netscape still doesn't fully support them? Give me a break, Netscape seriously sucks the big fat one. IE has better code interpretation, runs faster, and is a lot more stable in my experience. Why do browsers have to make web designing a pain be having different code for the same damn thing? It just makes our code (or tags if you don't consider html code, which i would agree with) more bloated and makes setting up a web site take longer. You would think that HTML, CSS, XML, and everything else would be universal across all platforms. Netscape lost the battle long ago, but we need someone to compete against MS so that we the end users can benefit. If I would rather pay $20 for IE then use a free Netscape, then something is seriously wrong.
Hey why not just start another Open Source project dedicated to doing just that?
I might. Or jump onto someone else's. I'm sure there will probably be quite a few people willing to rip the bulk out of the monster.
Plus what's keeping you from starting now?
I've thought about it, but I'd rather wait until the final 5.0 version comes out.
Finkployd
determining drivers shouldnt take that long if the software isnt doing something stupid, look at BeOS, it detects hardware on each boot, and on my machine it takes about twelve seconds..
:)
ok, maybe a bit offtopic
If you actually read the standard, you will notice that blink has to be recognized (IE does) but the browser doesn't have to do anything. So`you will notice that the object model in IE has a blink element exposed, but it doesn't actually blink. This is all according to spec.
Secondly, is it really very surprising that they can't make it work very well on even one particular Unix system, let alone the overwhelming majority.
Finally, even if they did make it work, it would surely be nothing but yet another annoying Winix program, ranging between awkward and anathema to Unix programmers.
Just add bookmarks back (I like those), and there you have it...
The Matrix is going down for reboot now! Stopping reality: OK. The system is halted.
I admit to not being an expert, but...
I see (reasonably) regular reports of crippling security holes in IE (or more specifically the HTML engine, so Outlook too...), NT and occasionally Office. They tend to release fixes fairly soon but they don't exactly shout about them so I'm guessing that there's a fair number of users entirely unprotected.
I don't follow the security community by any means, but when I see this many holes getting reported, I get worried. So what if they plug them in the end? They let them through in the first place, which they shouldn't have done. And stuff like Word/Excel macros and ActiveX seem to have been disasters waiting to happen.
If someone wants to tell me that they just get publicised because it's MS then I'll be happy and go away. But I don't recall hearing of this sort of quantity of security holes found in Netscape or Solaris...
Greg
Greg
(Inside a nuclear plant)
Aaaarrrggh! Run! The canary has mutated!
But the problem is, it's been 2 years. TWO YEARS!!! None of us can afford to keep on waiting.
don't hold our breath?? Maybe downloading a 5M tarball isn't too much of a problem, but the people who use our products aren't going to do that. Oh, and compile it and run it on windows.
Realistically, we're going to have to wait upwards to at least a year for N5 is in any sort of common use. Maybe more, and maybe never. (I tried it about a month ago and I couldn't stand it.)
This may be OT, but am I the only one that considers the interface of the current Mozilla builds to be just plain ugly? I know that it's not even in a "beta" stage yet, but given all of the talk about a "mozilla widget set", I'm scared that what I see is what I'll get. Personally, I like the motif-style widgets (and maybe even a touch of BeOS or GTK+), but the strange brew in Mozilla is just plain weird. As for the button bar, I'm still undecided. For what it's worth, I --love-- the look of the HotJava 3.0 browser's button bar. If you haven't seen it, it's worth downloading and taking a look at -- a masterpiece (IMHO).
Actually I really like the new interface. I think this is one of the improvements of Mozilla.
Fortunately since it is themeable their will be much choice and you will have several interfaces to choose from. I think there is about 6 or 7 on the mozilla site now -- including one that makes mozilla look like IE (THE HORROR -- THE HORROR
There isn't really any bulk to rip out. Take a look at it. As I said in a post above, there's not much you can rip out. Mail, News, Composer, AddressBook, Bookmarks, all those things are made out of the same stuff that the Browser is made of.
MS will only control the web if designers let it. If people write platform independent code, then it won't really matter which browser is used. Which would keep the door open for other browsers to come in and challenge IE's dominance. For all it's worth, on the few sites I will design in the future, I plan on making them completely viewable in Netscape or IE 4.x+. Just because a browser is dominant doesn't mean people MUST design only for that browser. The web is supposed to be open to everyone, not just people who use IE.
With Mozilla, you can see the progress of the project on a daily basis. You can download nightly builds, browse through Bugzilla, and in general see that Mozilla is going somewhere. If you aren't convinced, download Milestone 3 and Milestone 11. Compare them. Marvel at what has happened in 9 months. Bugs are getting fixed on a daily basis in Bugzilla. Check the weekly updates for exact bug numbers.
OTOH, with Internet Explorer 5.5, you have no idea what the hell they are doing. There's no public bug database to look at what's wrong or file a bug. There aren't interim builds available for general download every day, week, or even every month. Instead, you'll get about 3 beta versions over a 6 month period for what is effectively a service pack to IE 5.
Ehhh
Last I looked it lacked the usual browser features (including bookmarks like you said). Also I don't think it had forward or back buttons, or any other navigation tools.
I'm not complaining about the web browser part of Mozilla, just the integration with poor internet clients that have much better counterparts elsewhere.
Opera look's like just want I want except for the closed source and MDA windows.
Finkployd
A lean, high-capabilty, stable browser is needed. For me, Netscape pretty much fills the need, though I will continue to look forward to incremental improvements. But - In the longer run, the future is not about rendering html and displaying pretty pages on large high res screens. Assuming we continue to take the www in that direction, isn't that really just interactive TV, with infinite number of channels? The future may be more about Internet access from everywhere, from all kind of devices. And Internet access won't mean rendering web pages on itty bitty screens. It's all about getting the _data_ that's out there into your hands, not some set of visual pages that contain the data, that you have to do additional processing on to get the nuggets out ... Bottom line - web browsers are important for getting at data and accessing the Internet/www in its present condition. I eagerly await the 'next big thing' though that will push web browsers into the same category with archie and gopher ...
You can change the colors all you want, but it still looks ugly. I like the look of 4.X moreso....heck, I miss the good old days of 1.1N.
Silly European, thats because the world does revolve around us! Hail the conquering heroes!
The window of opportunity closed by mid-2000? Please.
First, Biil Gates, in the most recent issue of Forbes, admits that products other than W2K have been slowed by a diversion of resources to that product. Microsfot hasn't started any IE 6.0 hype yet, and no reports of even early IE 6.0 alphas have leaked out of Redmond yet. IE 6.0 is not going to be delivered in six months.
Second, on every non-MS platform, Mozilla will be far better than any version of IE available in six months. IE 5.0's codebase is very Windows-centric and its apparent speed advantage on MS OSes is because of OS integration. To get good performance on non-Windows platforms would require a re-architecting like the Netscape-Mozilla change, which would have been leaked if it were underway.
Third, the lighter-weight Mozilla will be a viable upgrade choice for the millions of 120 Mhz 16 MB RAM Win95 Pentiums out there; IE 5 isn't, and 6 will probably be worse. And they aren't going to all just dissapear anytime soon; many buisnesses (like General Motors) are just now finally getting rid of their 486es with Windows 3.1.
Fourth and finally, there is no network effect "window of opportunity" to close. Legacy browsers mean e-commerce sites need to be usable by a wide variety of browsers. Amazon.com still maintains Navigator 1.x compatibility; almost any mass-media type of site can still be rendered with Navigator 3.x. As a result, there will always be a lag effect that allows a new browser a chance to make a marketshare dent.
The mozilla team is a lot smaller too (heard reports that the IE team consists of several hundred) and netscape/aol isn't spending over $100 million a year on it (from the FOF). Considering that the Mozilla team is building something from scratch, I think they are doing rather well.
I don't mind the wait. Netscape 4.x, lynx, emacs-w3, and w3m all work fine for what I use browsers for. IMHO, AOL is basically waiting for the DOJ trial to make a decision. Since the Mozilla rendering engine has been made available as a ActiveX component, AOL could swap out the IE compontent for Mozilla for all its users without much of a problem. AOL already has automatic updates when the user logs on, so they could potentially switch all their users to the mozilla component in a few weeks, taking away the single biggest chunk of IE users away from MS.
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
Does anyone know if Netscape is going to stick with the Motif widgets for the next version? What about the fonts?
Netscape is really ugly on Unix systems(Note: my experience is with Red Hat Linux and Solaris only). I really prefer IE5 for browsing the web simply because web pages that have text and buttons actually look good.
Just get it done and get it out there. As long as you can make it reasonably fast and bug-free, I'll be more than happy. Take as long as you need; I know you're not dragging your feet 'cause I can see your source.
That said, I'd be mad if Netscape released their current M12 builds as Netscape 5.0. It's still not particularly stable (though it's improved vastly in that regard), keyboard accelerators only work maybe a tenth of the time (on the Mac anyway; I can't seen to get a LinuxPPC build working), and the launch time is still too slow.
I do, however, like the progress that's being made. The Mac installer is great, the rendering engine is fast, and at least the skins are configurable (though I wish someone would put up the old purple skin). Perhaps when M12 is finalized Netscape should start basing Alpha builds off of it. But let the software mature to the point where it's actually ready to be released before you go and release it.
mac os browsers?
since you asked, i'm going to suggest you try icab. It's still in development. However it's quick, light, and about as stable as MSIE. It doesn't have _any_ javascript support as of last time i checked. It has some PNG support and it's at least woth looking at.
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
mozilla
netscape doesn't really matter anymore, imho
-- Went home. Had to feed the kids.
My point is, a standards-based browser is only half the battle. The other half is standards-based websites. I think this is something that every webmaster who doesn't pay homage to Lord Redmond should consider.
-Rafi Remove the Spanish to email me.
It will still blow away IE. The real question is stability. and as a user of many different Mozilla builds, I have high expectations of the browser. Hell, my 4.6 browser just crashed a few minutes ago and Mozilla (build 1999111520) is still running.
s!mon
Delay by final release or beta release?
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
Will Netscape beat IE? I can't say. Maybe when AOL's people get Netscape and get rid of that code/security joke called MIE then it may. But people are pretty stubborn. My own personal like is Opera. It's fast, it sticks with standards, and Java (which is nothing to me, but a slow joke) is a plug in. Not supported which would bloat Opera to who knows how much for in essence 1 or 2 sites. One thing that Mickysoft and peopel in general doesn't seem to relieze is by sticking with one browser format when writing web pages, you miss a lot of your market. Even supporting MIE, your still saying "Netscape/Opera/Lynx users go take a hike" And since I write web pages for businesses, that can lead to me getting canned. Hence the idea of supporting standards (Netscape, and Opera) is a fine idea, and toss these stupid propritory extensions. I tend to agree, that I want a browser, that does JUST THAT - browses. No - making your OS a web browser thing. (Which is why I don't support MIE built into Winders - it's a resource hog) Also I want one, that is stable, fast and secure. I can do without all the cutey things like Active X, Javascript and Java if it's going to be used for security breaches, or those dammed pop-up windows, that always crash your system. The only time I've seen Java used for good, is the center for missing and exploted children site. They have a good java banner. If MIE wants to be the #1 browser it a) needs to be put on a diet, b) security MUST be built in, c) and get away from propritory useless supports and extensions (like ActiveX) Stick with standards!!
I agree. Ever use IE? Windows?
Well, to give credit where credit is due, I've used IE on Windows NT every day at work for the last 2-3 years without having either crash on me. Ever.
I'm running the beta right now. Seems a bit faster than 5, depending on the page you browse, stability is about the same, no crashes yet. Has a neat print preview feature, nothing to write home about though.
Saw it written and I saw it say, pink moon is on its way. None of you will stand so tall, pink moon is gonna get ye al
There are so many hypocrites in the Slashdot forums it is unbelievable. In any case, it is all over except the crying. Netscape and Mozilla have taken *way* too long to release a 5th generation browser to the public. Microsoft just released IE 5.5 beta. By the time Mozilla releases a finished product, I guarantee that IE 6.0 will be right around the corner. Then it will be another two years before the next Mozilla release. Open Source software at it's best...
OK care to explain Windows NT 5 for us then? Beside the fact that Microsoft was touting how good it was in 1996 and they have BILLIONS to get it done! Open Source failure? HA Do a search on Alta Vista for "Windows NT 5" and you'll find hits going back to 1996!
Mozilla stopped using gtk widgets AFAIK like six months ago, I believe everything is rendering locally, so all the platforms look the same. No more having things lay out wierd on Unix because the widgets are different than on Windows or MacOS.
Mozilla beta will still be released b4 christmas? please tell me yes
I wrote him a few days ago because they had another story where they mentioned that mozilla
was "delayed" again (not sure where they are
hearing these supposed deadlines from).
Paul is of the opinion that if Netscape continues
to let MSIE gain market share, they will never get
it back and we'll be trapped in a Microsoft world.
Paul has a short memory. I had to remind him how
we used to laugh at Microsoft when Netscape was
king... the browser "war" is never going to be
"over." It's not like Coke vs. Pepsi, where Coke
will always be more popular. It's whoever has the
better technology, better price, and better
marketing.
They're both free, and we know Netscape has better
technology coming out in Mozilla. Now to the
marketing. Let's see, Netscape has all the AOL
users at their disposal, all the microsoft haters,
linux/freebsd/mac/beos zealots, most open source
developers, Sun (Java), and the U.S. government
(in one form or another) in their corner...
Call me crazy, but I'm not too worried about
Netscape's chances to make a "comeback."
Besides, we all know the market share of MSIE is
bullshit anyways. How can Netscape be expected to
compete with a monopoly that distributes (and
usually requires) an MSIE installation with EVERY
SINGLE PROGRAM they release? Not to mention the
underhanded tactics MS pulls with OEM's, ISP's,
and other businesses.
Paul apparantly under-estimates the effect this
antitrust trial will have on Microsoft.
I don't think Paul "gets it." Oh well... CNET also
thinks the millennium starts on 01/01/2000. I used
to really like them, but they seemed to be more
concerned with generating as many stories and
banner ad views as possible now. Gone are the days
of entirely gold and green pages with cool Java
applets (back when Java was 6 months old or so)...
-thomas
So I'm sorry to hear about your experience. I'm sure it really matters who picks up your bug report.
The Matrix is going down for reboot now! Stopping reality: OK. The system is halted.
mozilla rules! all it needs is stability and filters for cookies... so i don't have to hit cancle a dozen times when i go to stupid websites...
... is netscape inflating version numbers already? or is that a typo?
but the article at one point mentions netscape 5.5
Also, has anyone else noticed that the stability of netscape is kinda non-deterministic? I install it once, it works fairly well (fairly well meaning it only crashes once or twice a day), but I install the same version a different time, and it crashes regularly... I can't figure it out...
Does anybody know if the official netscape version is using GTK for its widgets like mozilla is doing? I really really hate motif. I think that is one of the biggest things I dislike about Netscape under linux is that it is real ugly.
Also one more bit of speculation about the delay, what are the chances that they are taking so long so that AOL 6.0 can use Netscape? How long is AOL's contract with MS to use IE? It would be really a great trump card for linux if we had AOL support, which AOL using the Netscape code could give us. Not that I like AOL mind you, in fact I hate it, but I know lots of people who worship it and it would still be a great "big app" to have in the community.
Zontar The Mindless,
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
Here is what you can expect FULL (not half-ass or "more mature") standards support: XML, CSS, and DOM. From what I understand, IE5's implementations of XML is not complete, CSS is okay (but thats not saying much), and I have no clue about their DOM.
So in other words, what you like about IE5 will be what you hate with IE5 when N5 does make its release. A couple people have pointed out that N5 and Mozilla are different, but AOL/Netscape would be a fool to change the rendering engine. Mozilla is really good....really good. Its got some problems still, but thats why they are delaying it.
don't hold your breath, try out one of the nightly builds on mozillazine.org or mozilla.org. Hey waits, its only a 5 meg download for the whole thing? Imagine that, something that isn't bloatware.
Oh yeah - and you were 100% on about the anti-big thing. But sometimes big is bad.
simonFunny...I've maybe a total of 4 IE5 crashes in the last 3 months on the 4 systems I regularly use. But then again I'm apparently an exception to the anti-MS rule since I rarely reboot any of my 5 NT4 servers, yet many of the pro-Linux advocates that frequent
What new features is 5.0 supposed to have? The last few releases have been pretty much the same. When is a browser based on "Genko" supposed to come out? It would be good if they beat Opera to the punch by getting a full-featured browser out that doesnt take 30M of memory.
> Any modern browser *has* to support JavaScript (it's actually more important than Java, which tends to be used for just glitzy extras) - hence iCab sounds like a complete non-starter to me already.
iCab is "prerelease". You're essentially using pre-beta. Similar to mozilla, only it's much further along. The final version of icab will probably have javasript
You and Paul... short memories eh?
If you replace netscape/mozilla with MSIE in
the space below, and you think back to about
1996/1997, you'll find it is amazingly appropriate. Or has everyone forgotten that MS
was nothing on the internet just a few years ago.
Netscape staggered, Microsoft cheated, and now
they're ahead. Now Netscape is the underdog, where
Microsoft was, and they're getting ready to
release a great product, great tech, and open
source to boot. They have AOL backing them, as well as open source zealots of all kinds. Their
standards support will blow MSIE away.
And somehow you think they don't have a chance...
"I don't think netscape/mozilla, given many delays before producing a useable product, being so far behind what MS has accomplished with the technology curve, I don't think they'll be a viable competitor in the marketspace. If they pull off a miracle and make it better, I'd use that in a second instead too. I'm a traiterous pragmatist."
nope. blink is a CSS spec. IE4.5 on Mac doesn't support it and I don't think it is supported on IE5 on PC either.
Not that blink is critical. But the original poster's gist - CSS standards are poorly or not even fully implemented on the leading edge browsers, is valid and causes no end of consternation to me.
"Cause there's 40 different shades of black, so many fortresses and ways to attack, so why you complainin'?"
Simple.
"Cause there's 40 different shades of black, so many fortresses and ways to attack, so why you complainin'?"
Don't support proprietory things. It makes the life of webdesigners difficult. Support standards. In the end, its better for everyone involved.
http://mozilla-crypto.ssleay.org/index. html
Currently down, I don't know why. Hopefully no reason to fear the worst...
The Matrix is going down for reboot now! Stopping reality: OK. The system is halted.
Hmm... has back and forward at least on my MacOS setup. Bookmarks are needed though.
The Matrix is going down for reboot now! Stopping reality: OK. The system is halted.
"A couple thoughts: If Opera for Linux is good, or some other browsers pull through (like the KDE konqueror), will we all stop caring as much? Should we care as much? Will open source development on Mozilla diminish? Should it diminish? Survival of the fittest, ya know."
Probably not, Mozilla is the OSS poster child - most Linux folks will never ack it as the dead beast it is - to do so is to admit that OSS is not a universal miracle.
release the code to "slash", don't be a OSS hypocrite.
Cool, didn't know you could keep them from loading... I may have to try this.
The Matrix is going down for reboot now! Stopping reality: OK. The system is halted.
Actually, they already seem to have added some Javascript preference panels to 1.8 prerelease, which probably means it's coming reasonably soon. No doubt it won't be added into the prereleases still it's reasonably stable- he would do best not to put it in too soon and break everything.
FYI, I've been doing 95% of my browsing in iCab since 1.8 came out. It does read most sites beautifully, and I've even ordered a few things in it (which is important since many sites shops don't work without Javascript). Banking and a little bit of shopping is done in Netscape or IE 4.5, but that's a very small bit of my daily browsing.
All the other features in iCab are so useful that the Javascript thing really is not much of a deterrent- you just use another browser for those occasional needs. The customizable buttons and contextual menus are great. Keychain support and autocomplete really make my day. LINK tag interpreted for a toolbar is really nice - sadly the two major browsers don't support this, so most sites don't take advantage. The ad filters and comprehensive user preferences make a big difference. The built in HTML checker should be at every web designer's hands. The printing improvements are a great paper saver.
Yep, it doesn't have everything yet, but it's pretty darn impressive already (especially for a browser which came out of the blue, in German, only 10 months ago). The rate at which it's been improving is great, and I am not at all concerned about Javascript support- it'll be in when it's ready, and thankfully not before. I'd rather have no Javascript support than buggy support, and the same goes for CSS (just look at the mess that Netscape 4 and IE 3 created to see why).
I have high hopes for Mozilla too, but we'll see if they pan out.
I hope that iCab and Opera (also very user control friendly) encourage a brand new age of browsers with more user control and features which are designed to improve things for the browser users more than the browser manufacturers. Browsers have been in the user control dark ages for way too long.
W0W D00D U R N0T L33T!! Shut up you gay fag homosexual! Linux rulez! It is the best OS in the world! Stop using Windows! M$ IS FOR FAGGOT-HOMO-GAYS! LINUX RULEZ! I WILL FIND WEERE U LIVE AND KILL YOU! LINUX RULES!!! WINDOWS SUCKS!!! SO DOES EVERYTHING ELSE!!! MODERATE ME UP!!!
I use linux for everything that I do, with the exception of a few applications that my employer has decided to standardize on (Notes, PeopleSoft). I have none of the problems you describe with Linux or Netscape. My Windows box at work crashes probably 5-10x the rate that Netscape on Linux has ever crashed for me. Again, I use it everyday for lots of different tasks. Not any different than using IE on Win9x or MacOS (other than I don't have to worry about linux tanking like Win9x), and hardly a nightmare.
On a side note, I see nothing wrong for moderating down trolls or generators of flamebait.
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
Netscape is why I don't want to be or work at a Huge multi-billion dollar company. Stay small people.
First, as many have already pointed out, Netscape's beta will come out later than Mozilla's beta.
Second, I see WAY too many posts describing IE as superior to Mozilla in its support for DOM, XML and other standards. I don't whether to cry or laugh; after all, I expect an average "slashdot reader" to be smart enough to check Mozilla and its development out. It turns out that I'm wrong. It seems that most people didn't even bother to read more than two or three pages on mozilla.org, if any.
And that sucks. To give all those unenlightened a crash course in Mozilla:
- it has unprecendented support for standards. Period. Even new IE 5.5, as MozillazZine points out, still doesn't support CSS1 (one, not two!) completely, as Microsoft promised.
- it has its own set of widgets, which are going to be polished to become equal or superior to all other. Amongst other things, that means that Mozilla is going to have the same look and feel across *ALL* platforms, and web pages are doing to have same widget look and feel across all platforms. That is truly great.
- it's not even alpha yet! Why are people complaining about the browser being delayed? Do you want Mozilla to turn out rushed like Windows 95? or do you want it turn out to be a quality piece of software?
Give Mozilla a break. All of you are hot-headed open source advocates, and when it comes down to business, most of you scream: "Ahh, it's being delayed, it has no standards support, it's dead/crap!" instead of actually bothering to help out, even a little! Mozilla.org has lists of small tasks to be done in all sorts of areas (C++, DOM, JavaScript, etc.), there's surely something for you. Don't sit on your arse: Mozilla is open source and if you want it to happen sooner, go and help.
For those lazy to naviage the site, here's a direct link to the "Get Involved" page:
http://www.mozilla.org/get-involved.html
--
There is more to this issue than just having a great, stable, browser for Linux though. Unfortunately, Linux/non-Windows users are still a teeny-tiny slice of the OS pie. Even if Konquerer kicks @$$ and is the greatest browser ever, people on Windows aren't going to use it (they can't). Although I like Opera alot, it's not statisticly huge. And as more people switch to IE, more crap is going to pop up on the web that is proprietary and requires IE, or other Windows features. So Mozilla is more a fight for standards than a fight for an awesome browser. Many say they don't want all the bells and whistles that are being put into mozilla, but most "users" do, and they are the ones we need to keep the web open and standards-complient. That's why it's so important that Mozilla succeds not just in being a quality browser, but that it has a wide and deep user base.
Because as soon as any non-anon poster says anything in defense of Microsoft, he gets at least 10 flaming emails.
Netscape 5 better be good after all this waiting. :-)
Hmm, would you happen to be one of the morons who was crying "But we need Linux v2.2.0 NOW" about a year ago? Sure sounds like it.. I like Navigator, and I believe I'm in the majority when I say that I want STABLE applications. Now, you may enjoy using half-finished applications that crash, and are slow, and have lots of annoying bugs, but you're pretty much in the minority on that point. IMNSHO, they shouldn't release it until it's done, however long that takes.
The Netscape 4.61 that came with Mandrake 6.1 was fairly stable, but had a horrible memory leak. I upgraded to 4.7, it does not have a bad memory leak, but it crashes several time a night for me.
Jim Buchanan
I certainly hope you're wrong. I really do. And if you're not, then I wish they'd go back to Bill.
What's the problem? Well, suppose Microsoft wants to sell as much as they can. (Good bet, that.) This means they need to make their software accessible to everyone they can. That means they probably need to go at least one standard deviation below the mean. Once they get something that someone with an IQ of 85 is going to be able to be happy with, do you really think they'll bother making something for those of us who are a few stdevs out on the other end? Of course not.
That's why we're fucked.
The damn back button does not work properly. It rarely takes me back to the same position on the previous page. Very annoying especially on sites like Slashdot.
Well, if you have had such success with NT and IE then you are to be congratulated!
The company where I work have about 80 NT-servers at our main office. These need to be rebooted frequently. All servers that are critical for operation of the company are rebooted before weekends, in the hope of getting better uptime during the weekend. Our ~20 Solaris and Linux servers are seldom, if ever, rebooted. We have about 20 persons working with the NT-servers and only three for the UNIX part (all of which does NT stuff as well). This says something about TCO for NT...
I have had several crashes with IE. Which is rather wierd since I hardly ever use it. Oh, I had my fair share of Navigator crashes as well.
Finally, I'm not what you'd call a pro-linux advocate - I'm anti-everything...
W S B Tea Time of the DeadWSB
Er, you're raving about a browser that *doesn't* support JavaScript ?! I'm finding that more and more sites are tying in JavaScript to their site to such an extent that they now say "please upgrade to a browser that supports JavaScript or turn on JavaScript in your current browser" (a bit like the way sites started being frames-only a couple of years back). Any modern browser *has* to support JavaScript (it's actually more important than Java, which tends to be used for just glitzy extras) - hence iCab sounds like a complete non-starter to me already.
Netscape is just crap! doesnt work, is fulll of bugs and is a pain to use.
OK, I guess some people consider those features useful. But I for one don't need them and I have never, ever used them in the few sessions I had with IE. Perhaps I'm quaint when I rather have a fast, lean browser that adheres to standards. That is standards that are widely accepted, and not "standards" that the browser company themself makes up.
W S B Piece corpseWSB
I mean, how long's it been since IE 5.0 came out?
Actually, IE 5.5 beta came out within the last couple of days. It doesn't improve much upon IE 5.0, except to note that they have put a lot of effort into conforming to accepted standards, notably in the DHTML department. There's "print preview" as well.
Perhaps Netscape needs several more full-time developers or something... Microsoft is steamrolling right over it.
And a limit of one cookie from any one site, (with the rest silently rejected) please.
I still use NS 3.04 myself, but it *does* crash, plus most JavaScript out there is completely ignoring NS 3.X browsers, causing bad effects ranging from inline JavaScript appearing on the rendered page (a known NS 3.04 bug) through to dozens of irritating modal JavaScript error dialogues. Plus all CSS authors are seemingly refusing to put attributes on the tags any more, leading to rather ugly fallback pages when using 3.X browsers. NS 3.04 is on its knees now, but I refuse to go to 4.X because it's even less stable, far more bloated and actually ergonomically worse to use. BTW, for those not in the know, you'll have to ditch your NS 3.04 for e-commerce in the New Year because the internal Verisign certificate expires at the end of the year - every Verisign-secured site you go to in Y2K onwards will give a secure mode warning with NS 3.04 (it's fine with the 4.X releases) !!
Earlier milestones of Mozilla did allow websites to change the XUL, but that was becuase the security model wasn't in place. Now only local content, stuff on your hard drive, can effect Mozillia's UI. There have been a coupl comments in the Mozilla newgroups about allowing website to change the XUL way down the road, but currently its not a high priority.
Here's my experience, picked up the W2K Pro CD a few days ago. 1 hour install on a K6-2 333 with 64MB of RAM.
Detected all hardware, even my printer and scanner which ARE NOT supported in Linux.
TWO reboots during install and hasn't crashed once.
Oh yeah I removed my Mandrake Linux partition to make room for W2K. I'm liking it a lot and I'm not sure if I'll go back to Linux.
When has a new version of Netscape *ever* been faster, or more stable?
In reply to you query for a good, big company I would have to say IBM. They do great research ( see here ) and have been doing alot to help the OSS community. Since they were beaten with a stick in the 80's they have turned into quite a nice company.
Oh and, yes IBM (AKA, Big Blue) is big, just incase you weren't sure
Mozilla is NOT Netscape Communicator 5. Mozilla IS a free, open source, standards compliant browser that has been completely rebuilt from the ground up with things like portability, flexibility, and small size as key goals. Mozilla will soon enough be available for Windows, Macintosh, and Linux, BeOS, OS/2, OpenVMS, Amiga, and several other platforms. In other words, run whatever OS you want and Mozilla will be there. When Mozilla has reached a state where it is considered "finished", then Netscape will add things like cryptography, polish it up (perhpas with their own user interface), and ship it as Communicator 5 or whatever they will call it. I think it is important to realize that Mozilla is only the core of what will be Netscape 5. Because it's so easy to modify the user interface, there will be skins for Mozilla -- just like with WinAMP. Perhaps you can get matching skins for Mozilla and WinAMP. Since encryption software cannot be open sourced in the US, Mozilla does not have any encryption, but Netscape will add that on to Mozilla for the release of Netscape 5. People keep talking about market share, but I feel that when Netscape 5 begins shipping with AOL that will significantly affect market share. Not to mention the many people like me who believe that Mozilla is simply more standards compliant, more efficient, will very likely be faster when completed, and will be available on more platforms than any other browser on the planet. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but Mozilla is fast enough for browsing now -- and it doesn't even have the caching module yet because the Intel people that are working on it haven't finished it yet. Don't knock it's speed now. It's going to get faster. Wait for a beta. And finally, remember that the M12 release might be called an "alpha" release, not beta. After the alpha release, there will be a beta release every two months until it is finished. Then Netscape turns it into Netscape 5. Then AOL ships Netscape 5 as it's default browser. Please, read both the Mozilla and MozillaZine sites before spouting what you think Mozilla's faults are. Chances are, they have already been addressed there and are in the process of being corrected.
Netscape dropped the ball so long ago that not only did Microsoft sneak a home run, they are now back home polishing the game trophy. will anyone care if Communicator 5 ever sees the light? *ix users will run Mozilla, Windows users will run IE.
Unless the judge really kicks them up the behind, MS is going to finish the process of embracing and de-standardising the web. The W3C will become either a puppet show with MS pulling the strings, or an irrelevant joke, according to its own choosing.
The reality is that following standards takes work, and most people tend to follow the course of least resistance and develop something until it compiles and runs in their particular environment, or in the case of the web, displays as they intended on their browser setup. If the browser they use to test is IE5, or indeed 5.5, then that's the one they're going to see if their page works in or not.
I run the tech side of an internet company, and I am already getting pushback from HTML designers when I insist on cross-browser, clean and simple page design: "Why does it matter if it works in Netscape? Doesn't IE have 99% of the market anyway?"
If you actually look at sites being put up nowadays, the use of things like tables, frames and font and colour tags to try and force a particular appearance is a travesty of Tim B-L's original intent that is specify content and structure rather than display formatting. It would be more appropriate to have a web format based on something technologically more similar to PDF or Display PostScript.
It's far from impossible that something along those lines will happen, starting from a plug-in, but if so, the new "standard" will not be something like MPEG or Shockwave, but will come from Redmond and involve a ton of hooks into Windows API's.
Even today, there are sites which designers think they have designed to be cross browser that are barely usable in the X11 version of Navigator, either due to tiny fonts or because they have huge SELECT stacks which the X version of Navigator renders as an endless, many screens wide chain of pulldown menus, instead of the scroller which is used by both IE *and* Navigator on Windows. My favourite example of this in action is "choose city" (within the US) or choose country, with around 300 menu items. If the US had many more states, I'd never be able to buy anything online at all.
The slide into the abyss has started. I think the sad reality is that the best future non-Windows platforms can hope for on the web is playing catch-up based on reverse engineering. Let's hope it doesn't do too much damage to the many great "alternative" OS'es out there
Help->About
Based on NCSA Mosaic. NCSA Mosaic(TM); was developed at the National Center for Supercomputing Applications at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign.
Distributed under a licensing agreement with Spyglass, Inc.
Funny, I could code anything faster if I reused my code base . . . .
Hmm... could you be more specific? :)
I like beans, and you?
So incremental reflow is the way it draws part of a page at a time, right?
Mozilla used to be usable on Slashdot... after they put in incremental reflow, it isn't anymore.
Since I'm on a P166, rendering the page is what takes the longest time. It doesn't seem to have any concept of skipping to what's CURRENTLY loaded; instead, it draws every possible step in the loading of the page.
And since it uses all available processing power, I can't scroll the text (hey, if you're going to all that trouble to let me read the text as it's loading, then let me read it!), or click "Stop", or anything.
Now... incremental reflow is a very good idea - I used to gripe a lot about how browsers could show part of a page when you clicked "stop", but wouldn't think of showing the page when the download is stalled - but it's got to be implemented right.
IE renders a typical Slashdot article in 5 seconds. Netscape 4.7 takes more like 20. Mozilla M11... I've never had the patience to find out.
--
Win dain a lotica, en vai tu ri silota
When Mozilla is out, I'm going to be changing the source code to ignore META tags.
Think about it... all they usually do is make the browser do something I didn't want it to do, like bring up a popup ad.
Their legitimate uses are mostly for search robots, so my browser shouldn't care.
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Win dain a lotica, en vai tu ri silota
I'm not sure why this is. Maybe they just didn't get around to implementing it yet. It seems like it would be a simple (and useful) thing to add a check box in the preferences, but I didn't see one.
There is an online validator at:
http://www.stg.brown.edu/se rvice/xmlvalid/xmlvalid.shtml
Why didn't you file this under the "what else is new? department.
Does a jock itch?
You don't need to use imwheel, you just need to use a version of XFree86 from the last year or two, and you need to follow the instructions on the X Mouse Wheel Scroll Page (basically make sure scroll wheel support is turned on in XF86Config, then add new netscape entries to your .Xdefaults file).
Then voila, you've just added mouse wheel support to an app that was written before mouse wheels existed. I was thinking about how cool this was the other day while wondering why Regedit (in Win98) was ignoring my friend's wheel mouse...
I've yet to get any email, yet I regularly defend Microsoft when they are treated unfairly (rare occurance here on /.). Anonymous Cowards are cowards.
Do you have ESP?
I agree. Pull all non-browser source like mail&news and editor to seperate branches. cd mozilla/ ; make Go for a Guiness Record build time {;->
I think the basic reason for incremental reflow is to enable a user on a slow connection to read the text without waiting for all the images to load.
Before the switch to the Gecko rendering engine, using the old Mozilla code, incremental reflow was actually introduced in a project called Mariner. It worked very well too, but they shortly thereafter switched to the Gecko engine and Mariner was shelved.
Once incremental flow gets to the stability that Mariner was in, I think that it will be a definite plus. But for now, my builds exhibit the same problems you've mentioned. Slashdot, and many other pages, load excruciatingly slow and don't let me scroll the page until loading is finished. But on the plus side, it doesn't crash either, which is improvement over older builds.
Please name a standard to which IE doesn't adhere. Do the same thing for NS. Wow, is that the sound of bubbles being burst? Sorry.
Do you have ESP?
Where Netscape is going to shine is in the Linux/*nix market, where there is a definate void for a decent browser. Communicator's nice and all, but I want Mozilla! Didn't I switch to Linux to avoid instability?
Copy Protection: A clever method of preventing incompetent pirates from stealing software and legitimate customers from using it.
Here's my DeCSS mirror, where's yours?
I never mentioned NT 5.0. But anyway, why is it alright for Mozilla to be delayed but not any "closed source" software?
My impression was that Navigator 5 was to be based on Mozilla...
I'm surprised so many posts here seem to imply otherwise.
The difference will be in branding, default homepage, ssl/java/whatever modules, and technical support.
After all, netscape does, in theory, have all that SSL, Java, and other stuff sitting around, that was stripped from the original source release.
Oh yeah, and they have to add the shop button!
XUL seems cool and all but just think what harm it can cause in the hands of AOL. I would hate to have five or so ad buttons on the button bars when I visit so-and-so site. The less control the web site has the better.
Mozilla team, please don't do this to us.
Sounds interesting. Where might I procure a copy?
How many have read through Barksdale's rantings? Netscape wanted the Internet. Bad. How would they do that, though? decommoditization of protocols, although he isn't too open about it (unlike Microsoft). In other words, close-sourcing the Internet. That would sure put a crimp in the marketshare for all other browsers, wouldn't it? But how would they do this? Simple:
Basing their dominant browser on standards, but adding in their own proprietary "plug-ins" that add extra features that we would eventually become dependant on- and other proprietary, non-standard extensions like JavaScript- despite the fact that it would be just as easy (easier, even) to write a java applet (based on Sun's proprietary Java language). So, rally behind IE! Forgoe downloading Shockwave or Flash plugins, boycott sites that use them! If we all go along with it, it won't go away.
Scary how well that translates....
Do you have ESP?
You seem to think we all speak with one voice.
Is it really the same people saying both things?
Anyhow, the Free Mozilla is available for anyone patient enough to run it (I tried it, but I'm back with 4.7 for now). Proprietary Navigator is delayed, but i'd rather see that than a buggy product.
--
Microsoft tends to ignore security holes whenever possible.
I don't want to pick on you in particular but this has gotten out of hand. Microsoft has not ignored any security hole and they don't do it whenever possible! Their fixes on their web page for the security issues.
Dang it people Microsoft is not evil! Guess what? They do care about their customers. You just don't give them a chance by declaring everything they do as FUD, marketing, or incompetence.
Microsoft is not a perfect company and have made many mistakes. But if you are going to accuse them of something then make sure you are rightly accusing them. Otherwise your FUD is far worse than anything from Redmond.
why not call it Netscape 2000?
Shane Sturrock
http://java.sun.com/products/hotjava/3.0/ (~ 5 MB)
I'm definitely not an expert on this (for expert information check out http://www.mozilla.org docs or the netscape.public.mozilla news groups) but I'm pretty confident in my understanding XUL and teh general architecture of Mozilla. With that out of the way, here are some comments about some of the ideas posted concerning XUL, AOL, and "bloat".
t )but mozilla will remain mozilla - simple and open.
.xul, .css and .js files but that's about it. Mail, News, and Editor are not seperate beasts. They do not add significantly to the weight of the code base. They simply organize and display functionality (that is already a necessary part of the browser) in a different way. When you launch Mail (or news or editor) in mozilla, think of it as launching another browser window because it's not much more than that. Anyone is free to put together a browser without a mail menu item and without a few XUL and javascript files but they won't be cutting out any "bloat".
Websites will not be able to modify your skin (not in mozilla's first release anyway)
Netscape/AOL can put whatever they want into their branded version of mozilla (Navigator/Communicator/whatevertheydecidetocalli
Mail, News and Editor are not 'bloat'. They are small efficient apps built on top of the same code that Browser is built of. The code that could be pulled out that isn't required by (a part of) the Browser is very small. You could nuke a few
I am all for modification and customization and look forward to the many versions of mozilla the browser or mozilla the communications suite that will soon be available.
Asa
Just when it seems IE is running away with the browser war...Netscape start running in the opposite direction.
Communicator 5.0 is unlikely to come out before Microsoft have the entire browser market sewn up. This is scary and Not Good for the WWW.
We're not looking at any real competition to IE until the Spring probably.
Your argument doesn't make that much sense, I don't think. I agree that netscape should not have news readers or mail readers (I never use those parts anyway), but what is wrong with it having cookie filters? I mean, cookies are (kind of) part of the http specification, and netscape is an http client, so why should I have to install a different piece of software to act as a middle man between the client (netscape) and the server (the sites netscape is viewing)?
... =)
besides, emacs rocks. (score: -1, flamebait
I will however take a look at junkbuster, thanks.
Put this in your prefs file:
user_pref("browser.chrome.disableMyShopping", true);
For you who didn't bother to read the article!
A Mozilla alpha version will be released Dec 15 and the first beta will be released somewhere in the middle of February. This is not the same as a branded Netscape Beta, which will take place some time after the Mozilla Beta.
The article mainly complaints about Mozilla lateness and worries that corporate users are moving towards IE. They also partly blaim XUL for some of this lateness.
You don't have to have a publically posted email address or webpage.
perhaps the big must-have feature for fifth-generation browsers will be stability...
heh, heh. who am i kidding?
but yeah, rereading the article helped, but still, they should be more explicit when they throw out version numbers... i suck at math!
FYI it's named after that psychoactive herb.
All of the same, I would much much rather them release a late product then a lame product. Reference what is going to happen to Win2K -- late and bad.
Netscape Sucks Hairy Ass. Here's a few reasons why:
1.) When you click "exit" everything closes, including your downloads. Duh. Why even provide an exit, can't they run each window in a separate process?. I'd like to see "Exit" totally removed. Me and many other people I know have been burned repeatedly by this one. I'll open about 20 windows with the intent on reading what's in them. Only to then "exit" one of them, and "POOF!" they all close ?!?!?!? This is retarded.
2.) Im really, really tired of the netscape "lock" mechanism. This should be removed. What the hell should _I_ care if another netscape is already running. What's important is that I want another window... behind the scenes, the browser should figure it out and deliver what I want. Not nag me with pointless windows.
music - http://www.subatomicglue.com
You are absolutely right. There are so many hypocrites in the Slashdot forums it is unbelievable. In any case, it is all over except the crying. Netscape and Mozilla have taken *way* too long to release a 5th generation browser to the public. Microsoft just released IE 5.5 beta. By the time Mozilla releases a finished product, I guarantee that IE 6.0 will be right around the corner. Then it will be another two years before the next Mozilla release. Open Source software at it's best...
So, Mozilla won't have 128 bit encryption, right? Also too bad that /. polls don't seem to work under lynx (not that they're worth answering).
Specifically nomo zilla and ncsp/aol.
OG.
just found this:
Mozilla on its first birthday has yet to provide its parent Netscape with a final release product, and rival Microsoft's newly released Internet Explorer browser, version 5.0, is way ahead of Netscape in standards support and componentization.
so apparently the big thing for 5.0 browsers is standards support, but more importantly (since i saw it in other portions of articles) componentization.
i found the above quote at the JWZ article linked off of the netscape article: http://news.cnet.c om/news/0-1005-201-340684-1.html?tag=st.ne.1005.
How many have read through the halloween documents? M$ Wants the Internet. Bad. How would they do that, though? decommoditization of protocols as the author of that email put it. In other words, close-sourcing the Internet. That would sure put a crimp in the *nix marketshare, wouldn't it? But how would they do this? Simple:
Basing their dominant browser on standards, but adding in their own proprietary "plug-ins" that add extra features that we would eventually become dependant on, despite the fact that it would be just as easy (easier, even) to write a java applet. I know java ain't that stable on Communicator, but that's besides the point--it's open. So, rally behind Netscape! Even when you have to use Winblows, use Communicator! We'll be stuck with it for now, but we'll be rewarded with Mozilla later on. Forgoe downloading Shockwave or Flash plugins, boycott sites that use them! If we all go along with it, it won't go away.
Copy Protection: A clever method of preventing incompetent pirates from stealing software and legitimate customers from using it.
Here's my DeCSS mirror, where's yours?
- A.P.
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"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
yea, you suck
Having to wait two more months lets me wonder if
they finally will support Style-Sheets and HTML4
correctly.
Has anyone noticed, that currently CSS is only
supported when JavaScript is *activated* ???
Regardless of what one thinks about Micros~1 - at
least their IE does it as it is supposed to be.
AND, I guarantee he reads /. But will he respond here? Doubtful. He won't even respond to polite email.
Feh. Just keep coding and bug fixing. He'll fade into oblivion with the rest of the naysayers.
I mean, how long's it been since IE 5.0 came out? And a real "new" version of Netscape anything?
I like IE because it has a more mature DOM that (in my opinion) you can do more with using less code. I like the fact that it has an XML component that's actually useable. I like the more complete adherance to CSS specifications (again, in my opinion). I like the open ended object/active x/ole/whatever they're calling it this week/ structure (this is more MS strategy stuff, but what they hey).
I don't like the security holes (found in other software), the lack of input into design decisions, and occasional stability problems. Those are pretty big "don't likes" actually. On the other hand though, Netscape doesn't really have anything I like (as a developer), and some of the same dislikes. Makes it an easy decision doesn't it?
All that said, I think that Mozilla's only chance is to become the consumer browser, because I would choose IE as a development platform in a hot minute. I've read several articles mentioning the fact that IE is eclipsing NN/C in the intranet/internal development marketplace (some posted here) and I agree totally. If I had to support netscape right now it'd double my work. I'd have to write everything twice, AND some things I couldn't do at all. The long and short of this long message is (and here's the flamey bit): I don't think netscape/mozilla, given many delays before producing a useable product, being so far behind what MS has accomplished with the technology curve, I don't think they'll be a viable competitor in the marketspace. If they pull off a miracle and make it better, I'd use that in a second instead too. I'm a traiterous pragmatist.
Off Topic FUD and crap following
vvvvvvvvvv
Just as a side note, I've been vett'ing slashdot for quite a while now and have drawn some interesting conclusions. It seems that Big automatically == BAD and Small/independent automatically == GOOD. I think in some part it goes to a hearkening back to the grassroots origin of the internet. Is there a "good" "big" company that fits into the narrow slashdot canon? And not just because they're the next great white hope against microsoft, but because they make good stuff that people can use and like?
I remember how the knives came out after the Red Hat IPO once they became BIG and therefore BAD. If a Big(bad) company actually puts out a good product, will anyone actually notice for all the knees jerking?
End FUD and crap ^^^^^
cdensch doesn't do signatures
Do you know if this is a feature someone is working on? Exactly what I want, but never thought of!
If no one is working on it it better be sumbitted as a "Request for Enhancement" so it doesn't get forgotten! It's a good idea.
http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/
Markus
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One of the things that Netscape does not have is time. Yet they seem to be wasting all the time that they have. They had a working version of Mozilla months ago. How long can it take to convert that to release quality code? While Netscape/AOL is twiddling their fingers, Microsoft is putting out new versions of what I think is the best browser out there.
Way to go Netscape/AOL, compete with a better competitor by ... delaying your own browser yet again.
No one cares.
- c o w
No you suck you cock smoker!
I don't wanna be too offensive here, but I am astounded by the fuckin' guppies that are posting basically "me too" to these discussions. Slashdot goes back and forth. Every two weeks the headlines are either:
"Mozilla doing well!" - usually a milestone release
and
"Mozilla's eating it!" - usually a *totally* uninformed editorial on ZDNet
And the replies are always basically "Yeah, mozilla sucks/rocks" depending on what the spin-of-the-day happens to be. I mean, go back and do a search of "mozilla" stories and you'll see what I'm talking about.
People who are following the mozilla story (via mozillazine.org and mozilla.org) seem to have a clue, but most of these comments are just like so uninformed and following the spin, it's makin' me sick.
"Genko" engine indeed. Feel free to moderate this down. I just had to vent.
A big-ass Coward
I think ALL posts from "Anonymous Coward" are given a "0". If you believe your information is of more value, why not use your name? It's easy to register, gives you the more choices of how to view things and will allow you to get those special moderation points you are seeking.
>>>please remove "nospam" from email address
yea, well you suck so much you suck! cock knocker
I suck? Well, I don't think so! The popular opinion around here is that you suck. So I must agree with everyone in saying that you suck! Foreskin fondler!
God I am looking forward to a nice final from Mozilla....using html for the window layout is going to be interesting..assuming the source will be easy to get at, it'll be a cinch to customize the browser to your own liking..
_ _____________
On the PC side of things, I really have no major browser complaints.. with Linux(installing SuSe tonite on a box I just built, this is my first major use of Linux, as opposed to minor admin stuff, so wish me luck!) I havent used the browser enough to build a list of what it's lacking.. so this is coming from a Mac OS point of view..
I would love to see a browser that merges the best of IE and Netscape.. each of them has strengths, and each has weaknesses..
I love the History on IE, I abhor the netscape history. PLEASE let me go to where I've gone before, even if I have already closed the damn window.
I like that I can click and drag an image in Netscape to see its dimensions..great from a design point of view..
IE seems to bog down quite a bit when loading long pages with a lot of text.. Netscape, for my uses, is all around the quicker browser in day to day surfing..
Rare is the day that Netscape doesnt crash.
What about you guys? Since we are on the topic of new browser releases, what features in the current crop of browsers do you love and hate? Be interesting to see what has driven various people to a particular browser...
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driph
I don't have any problem with Netscape stabilty at present (version 4.61 under Linux). All you have to do is turn Java off.
Mozilla's browser, as such, will not contain all these pansy functions, but will focus on speed, reliability, standards compliance, and cross-platform availability. I think it'd be too hard to add those cutsey functions to all OSes... Microsoft only has to develop mainly for Windoze (maybe MacOS if you count that... winCE, etc.).
However, for ME personally, I don't want those pansey functions. Running IE drains my resources already, and I'd rather have a sleek, faster browser that JUST browses, rather than gives me all the other cruft IE does, (eg. Microsoft "Animation" stuff) and all the other MS proprietory stuff that goes in.
And I don't think they are loosing the browser war. Browsers are easily switched. And as long as Netscape provides an easy upgrade path for those people already running 4.x browsers, then they can retain their current loyal clients.
Btw... I don't consider AOL bad by any means. They bailed out Netscape IMHO when it was starting to sink. They can now focus on coding and worry less about the finances.
Oh well... such is life.
Cyberpunks.org.
Time to crash.
--
Man is most nearly himself when he achieves the seriousness of a child at play.
****Gfx Scrollbar Special case hit!!*****
Good points. See my post below for my personal likes and dislikes.. You've got to wonder if some third party is going to pop out of the woodwork with a browser one of these days.. I've heard a lot of good things about icab..Opera had a buzz for a while.. we'll see..
_ _____________
Now on to the tasty slightly offtopic part of your post..
I agree with your opinion on how companies seem to be viewed on Slashdot... a lot of the mentality, in my opinion, stems from the basis of what Linux stands for for a lot of people...The underdog rising above the megacorporation.. and often, I agree with these sentiments..many companies just "go bad" once they are huge..or they are forced to deal with a much larger consumer base, and instead of serving a niche very well, they now serve a mass consumer market decently... so each one of us is going to find small companies that seem to fit our particular needs to a greater degree...
As far as large companies I personally really like.. first offhand is Cisco... and I guess Adobe would be considered a large company, in its market.. and a slight nod to Apple..they waiver, but usually come out positive in my opinion..(I'm really looking forward to OSX)..
Looking forward to what others have to say here..
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driph
How many Americans does it take to change a light bulb?
Only one: he holds the light bulb and stands still and the world revolves around him.
Thats the attitude I hate and that you seem to have.
Well, I may not know much about this stuff, but here's my Log(2.7732) + Exp(Pi/2*Sqrt(-1))^2 cents.
Hmm. It's amazing what people are doing these days. Good stuff.
P.S. Last Post?
P.P.S 151 and Jaegermeister rule!
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The final word; anything following is redundant.
Blame the programmers, blame whoever hired these programmer. If you managed to be as ineffecient as Big companies like MS, you got a problem.
Apparently, mozilla team is less efficient than the IE team. It is obviously they have big problems on the management. If mozilla team is less effecient than IE team and they have not those 'buddle my M$ OS behind it' power behind it, then the mozilla is surelly close to death.
Fire the management team and get a new crew!
So we can very well build custom versions of Mozilla without any AIM or other annoyances.
:)
Oh, and we will
You think it's small and fast now? Wait until I get done with it. After ripping out the "cram every internet client we can think of" code, it will be one fast, small, WEB BROWSER. Nothing else, just a web browser.
Finkployd
Your post was more of a troll than anything else, but I'll answer it anyways.
Mozilla's team is more inefficient than IE's, you say.
Oh, definately. After all, it's not as though Mozilla's team has nearly completed the amazing task of creating a modern, full featured browser from scratch in a little more than a year, when IE5 took about 6 years to reach its current state. Very little of what is in Mozilla is recycled code. All the engines have been entirely redesigned, and the engineers working on the project seem to have dropped the philosophy that worse is better.
IE5.5, on the other hand, I don't really care about. I'm not too excited about what I hear is a 70+ MB download for a Print Preview feature, and a couple modifications to the GUI of Windows. I'll probably download the thing, but I don't imagine that people connected by modem will.
I mean, come off it. "IE is efficient! They had a couple dozen people work hard for a week for the next generation browser that will finally kill Netscape for good!" (Not a quote, but a mindset. Read comments on ZDNet and BetaNews)
I'm not impressed. That's the bottom line, so far as I am concerned.
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If a tree falls on an anonymous coward yelling 'first post' in the forest, does anybody hear?
Actually, I don''t think blink is standard html, its just an extension that came about long ago during the early years of the browser war. personally, I hope it never becomes standard html, its just annoying.
--Nuintari
slashdot : where an opinion can be wrong.
(-1, Redundant)
but i really do like that idea!
just think, big brother cookies and shopping info stuff can be weeded out (or given premature expiration dates!), but all those important ones (like slashdot, hotmail, etc..) get preserved...
hey, not just a history listing, but a cookie listing... why not? I'm sure a snappy UI could be designed to intuitively control those cookies too...
From playing with a simple DTD and XML example I came to the conclusion that IE 5 doesn't really care about verifying an XML document against its DTD - as long as the syntax of both DTD and XML are OK, the XML document will be displayed. Try adding an element like <argh> somewhere (don't forget the closing tag!), it displayed just fine for me although it sure wasn't part of the DTD.
Are there any options that you can switch on I didn't find?
I use lynx (it's the only web browser I like), and slashdot polls seem to work fine for me. I may not be able to see all the pretty graphs, and dodads, but I get the information all right.
Course, this all comes from a guy who still thinks that a text mode is much more efficent. It lets you use your ram for something inportant like chrunching numbers, and other inportant things...not displaying pretty pictures (not that pretty pictures are bad, just pretty pointless)(and in case your curious, I use emacs, not vi'le')
http://www.xpurple.com
When is the last time a new major version release ever led to "a more stable and faster Netscape"? It just gets slower and more bloated with every upgrade. I kept using 3.0 for as long as possible before upgrading to the 4.x series. But nowadays, too many things require version 4 browsers.
Perhaps Mozilla is the only hope for a non-Microsoft broswer, I don't know. But I don't plan to upgrade until there is a browser actually working that is in fact both faster and more stable. I have little expectation that this will be Netscape Navigator 5.0.
"I believe that the cult of the particular brings only death - for it bases order on likeness." St.-Exupery
I grabbed M11 a while ago. I liked the html rendering capabilities, and most other things. But, is that what the interface is going to look like? Or is it just sitting like that until developement can be completed on the core engine, and more attention paid to the interface? In its current incarnation, it doesn't matter how fast/stable/whatever it is, its just too ugly.
--Nuintari
slashdot : where an opinion can be wrong.
That's what MozillaZine asks us. There is a survey where they ask about readers' feelings regarding the current builds.
I have been trying Mozilla for months already. It has improved steadily but they are still making big changes there. For example they started doing incremental reflow. While it's nice, it caused some pages to load very slowly. IMO, that's still one thing to fix before Alpha.
I guess it's good to delay Mozilla until it's ready and free of bugs. Mozilla is designed from ground up, small, fast and supports standards beautifully. It'll be a pleasure to use it.
But I couldn't but notice some fear. Some people are scared that AOL will fill Mozilla with ads and make it unusable. While AOL might do it, remember that the source code of Mozilla is free. It's right there at ftp.mozilla.org and you're free to get it any day. So we can very well build custom versions of Mozilla without any AIM or other annoyances.
will it finally have wheel support in linux? I know I can use imwheel but then everything else with built in wheel support wont work, or will all have to be setup manually which sucks.
As a site builder I have a variety of different browsers that i use to check my code (I use real HTML, none of this WYSIWYG for me :-). And one of the biggest problems is the varying amount tags that any one browser understands.
I am now trying to strictly use style sheets and none of the deprecated tags, but with IE and Communicator still not accepting all of them it is hard, and these are the browsers that most of the public are using.
eg.a problems with Communicator - obscure method of embedding tags (non-W3C) and a problem with IE - still doesn't understand blink.
So thats first on my wishlist, certainly would make my job easier.
You folks don't get pissed off when an open source product is delayed because it is deemed not ready, yet you get rather hostile when a closed source company pushes back the release of one of THEIR products instead of shipping it broken. Make up your minds.
because the reality is that IE has a lot of compelling features
Why not tell us what these features are? 'Cause I sure as hell have missed them on the few occasions I've been forced to use IE.
W S BWSB
I tried HotJava 3.0, a web browser written completely in Java. According to Sun, it runs on any machine with a 1.1.6 or better Java virtual machine Now that I have a fast (P-II 350) box and a quick JIT JVM (Sun's JDK 1.3beta), there are no more problems from a speed point of view.
However, as I read relatively complex pages like Slashdot most of the time, there is a problem with scrolling down a page - it flickers, twice for each PageDown I press. It's even worse if you use the mouse with a scroll bar. I don't know if this is an AWT or Swing problem, or related to my graphics card driver, but I find it very annoying. Apart from this, there are few rendering problems (ugly radio buttons, white on gray, but that's it). It supports HTML 3.2, JavaScript (full ECMA 1.4 support, but I don't know that standard) and, of course, Java. I'm probably going to try it with IBM's fast 1.1.8 JRE under Linux soon...
It is proprietary, and does not run on Linux/*BSD/UNIX.
Your waiting for a Faster, more stable Netscape? Isn't there anywhere you can dowload 2.12 anymore?
Almost a hundred comments posted, and not even a single person has uttered the words 'Mozilla is dead'. Congratulations, Slashdot readers.
Anyway, before anyone decides to reply with that to my post, I figure I'll offer a link to Mozilla's Tinderboxen. This page shows whether the up to the minute builds are compiling successfully or not, as well as showing all checkins to SeaMonkey (Mozilla) in the last 12 hours. (Although you can go back as far as you want to, actually.)
I figure that looking at this page on any weekday while the tree is open can prove to any skeptic that Mozilla is just flying along. Even on weekends and at 4:00 am, there are usually a few people checking in this and that. After all... Between midnight (pacific) and now on Friday night, two people have been checking in periodically.
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If a tree falls on an anonymous coward yelling 'first post' in the forest, does anybody hear?
And I'm suffering :-) But I don't care, it feels good, and darn it, I'm going to be really bummed if mozilla finally comes out without a single line of code in it from me. So...
:-) I'd think that the timing of AOL 6 would depend more on the availability of mozilla that vice versa. It's a no-brainer that AOL will switch to mozilla when the time is right - and that together with the increasing Linux user base, will put netscape/mozilla back on top in the browser wars more or less immediately. We haven't even considered the slashdot effect yet - what happens when several thousand well-connected and highly motivated geeks hit the cyber-highway to promote the Lizard and email it, DCC it, icq it, whatever, to everybody they know? This will make the mellisa virus look benign :-)
...Not that I like AOL mind you, in fact I hate it, but I know lots of people who worship it and it would still be a great "big app" to have in the community.
:-) (and you ;-) are joining the mozilla effort. Think about it, this is about the last chance you get to scratch that itch before every feature gets frozen - and how many chances did you get before to work on a massive, professional project like this?
Does anybody know if the official netscape version is using GTK for its widgets like mozilla is doing? I really really hate motif. I think that is one of the biggest things I dislike about Netscape under linux is that it is real ugly.
There's no chance that motif will be used - the choice is between MFC or some such and GTK. I guess I have to drill down into the code to know for sure whether native widget sets are supported, but it sure looks to me like GTK is going to be completely cross-platform. Themed GTK is absolutely gorgeous and I can't think of a single thing about native windows widgets that GTK doesn't do as well or better. Obviously, mozilla's use of GTK is a big boost for it and we're going to see a lot more cross-platform packages done that way.
Also one more bit of speculation about the delay, what are the chances that they are taking so long so that AOL 6.0 can use Netscape?
They're taking so long so that it will be done
How long is AOL's contract with MS to use IE?
ISTR it was extended to 2002 - however if the contract is found to be illegal it will vanish instantly. I don't think AOL will have a lot of trouble with that - they just have to be sure BillG won't kick them out of the oneline service promotion deal in Windows.
Yup, AOL is key, however much they suck, Microsoft sucks MUCH MUCH more. IMHO, having mozilla on Linux is the biggest app of all.
At this stage of the game, a lot more non-netscape developers (like me
Life's a bitch but somebody's gotta do it.
Mozilla has been planning since the summer to release a public alpha in December, followed by a beta a few months later. In some cases these two releases were called "mozilla beta" and "netscape beta", admittedly a confusing way of describing the releases, and one which was rectified a while ago.
A few months ago some reporter misunderstood the release schedule and reported Netscape would release a beta in December. Since then this inaccuracy has propagated into all subsequent news articles through the common journalistic practice of re-using previously published work instead of doing original research.
Now suddenly some reporter discovers what's actually going on, but instead of printing a retraction of earlier stories they say the Netscape beta has been "delayed". It isn't true, and while I expect it from the news sites I've been reading it from for months, I figured Slashdot would be able to figure it out. I guess not.
Don't believe me? Check it out for yourself:
The Milestone Chart
Quoting from the article "[ Fwd: The Plan]" (1999 September 24) in the newsgroup "netscape.public.mozilla.porkjockeys":
Just by way of comparison, can anyone say what new features IE 5.5 will have? In truth, I had not even heard of it before this article and had been wondering when the next IE would be released.
I am using iCab right now on my powerbook and it truly is a joy to use as web browsers go. It is even more light weight than opera and it has a really nice gui. I also like how it desplays sites even better than ie and nc at times. Once it supports JavaScript (already supports Java cuz Mac browsers can use apple's runtime instead of having to use their own) it will definitely become the main browser among Mac users. As for Linux, opera will do very nicely.
I forsee very soon after the final release of mozilla (or perhaps the alpha/beta if we're lucky) a patch from the fortify people to make it 128 bit the way they patch netscape. It seems as though it would be even easier to patch mozilla for higher encryption as they have the source code.
junkbuster filters ads, cookies, etc. You don't need the browser for this, you just tell junkbuster which sites can allow cookies in.
support gun control: take guns from cops
Sorry, but Netscape was screwed up long before AOL came along. If it wasn't for AOL, Netscape would have been bankrupt already and the Mozilla project would be dead.
If you reprogram XUL. Everything is in the chrome folder for Windows, and I think the same in Linux. You can making it have a less white and blue look.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" - F. Voltaire.
Windows is not where Netscape is going to shine. I think M$ has pretty much demonstrated that no matter how cool your stuff is, they own the turf--and they control it depending on their own interests.
Where Netscape is going to shine is in the Linux/*nix market, where there is a definate void for a decent browser. Communicator's nice and all, but I want Mozilla! Didn't I switch to Linux to avoid instability?
You make a good point here. Microsoft, as sole owners of Windows and as proprietors of its source code, have basically complete control over things and have sway in this situation so that it's easy for IE to beat Netscape on windows. I use Netscape and find it suits my needs; others will not find it so. But, back to my point, it's easier for Netscape to excell on the open source market (or, for other OSes besides Win and besides OSS, though I wouldn't know from experience) because of the very nature of OSS. I mean, if all the code is open for peaking and tweaking, what do you expect? So yes, there is a nice big void on the open source side of things (and *nices, as you mentioned) for something like Netscape to come in and fill. As for me, I'm waiting for 5, but in the mean time, I'm just happy with my 4.7.
Insert mind here.
> If I had to support netscape right now it'd double my work.
Even if this is true, might that not mean less work in the long run? If MS chooses to change the APIs in IE6+, you're going to be left high and dry. On the other hand, if you develop for Netscape/Mozilla, you will have plenty of warning about changing APIs (since development is open) and the chances are extremely high that a software company, somewhere, will continue supporting the old APIs.
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
In the recent past, /. has had several interesting articles:
;-)
1) Netscape for Linux blows. If we don't get a decent browser, we may well "loose the war" on the dekstop, whatever the heck that means.
2) Mozilla is constantly late.
3) There seems to be a rabidity in the expectation and support of Mozilla.
4) There is a bevy of _other_ browsers being produced for Linux, or already exist.
For instance, what about Opera?? To quote from the Nov 20th posting on the Opera page:
"As Opera for Linux development leader, I'm looking very forward to releasing an early beta within the next 4-6 weeks. This doesn't mean that it will be a perfect product. It simply means that I'm trying to make all of our prospective Linux users happy. I feel confident that the high level of stability we have come to expect from Opera will shine through. Linux users will soon have a choice!"
A couple thoughts: If Opera for Linux is good, or some other browsers pull through (like the KDE konqueror), will we all stop caring as much? Should we care as much? Will open source development on Mozilla diminish? Should it diminish? Survival of the fittest, ya know.
It would be nice to have an open source browser, but we sure have used a commercial one (Netscape) for a long time now. What if konqueror or one of the others pulls through? It seems we all want to put our eggs in the Netscape basket. It would seem embarassing for Open Source if Mozilla failed I suppose, but is that a good enough reason for the rabid support of Mozilla? I think history would bare out a different story. Mozilla may be a bump in the open source road, where companies learn to interface with the open source community. Don't get me wrong, I wish Mozilla all the success in the world, and they may eventually get it really right, but it seems we are all being myopic. Maybe we should try to look down the road a little bit. I believe in the concept of OSS development. Just because one project fails, doesn't mean the whole world is going to turn around and say "Just kidding! We knew all this stuff would fail. Let's stop supporting it now." If Moz fails, we'll survive, Microsoft will still get its, Linux will be happy, and we'll all be surfin' fools.
Anyway, just some blathering. I'll be quiet now.
If I had no sense of humor, I would long ago have committed suicide. -Ghandi
if you want a cookie filter, get a cookie filter program. if you want a newsgroup reader, get a newsgroup reading program. if you want an email client, get an email client. :)
it seems netscape has not learned from their mistakes -- i don't want the damn kitchen sink in my web browser. it's like emacs all over again. next thing you know, they'll have an entire office suite, a 3d modeller, and a java ide in there.
btw, junkbuster works great for cookie filtering
speaking of the shop button -- how do i get rid of that damned thing? is there a way? what makes them think that's a good idea. i mean, if it weren't for us non-ms-os users, would netscape even _have_ a user base for its browser? are they trying to alienate even us?
- pal
It's too bad that the Mozilla people doesn't concentrate on the main browser code. Instead they are all over the place with news, mail, direct messaging and so on. Crud that no one will use. Especially if this is supposed to be THE browser for us that use UNIX-like operating systems.
There are pleny of good mail and news clients for UNIX. But far fewer alternatives when it comes to browsers. So cut out the crap and concentrate on your main "business" and give us a GREAT browser...
W S B Cute & Cuddly Carrion ComfortWSB
In the artical he said that he was wishing for a faster more stable Netscape. What about good old Netscape Navigator 3.0! In my Windows 95C install I removed Internet Explorer and put in Navigator 3.0. It works just fine, fast, stable, small. Remember, Don't kick grandma kids!