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Tales From The Bazaar
From Jordan Greenberg:
The Bazaar was my first real chance to meet any of the big names of the Linux community. Though I missed all of the daytime events due to work, I showed up just in time to be bored by Ralph Nader and retreat to the Andover.net party before things got too crazy. Once there I was able to chat with such legends as ESR, Bruce Perens, Maddog Hall, Jeff and Robin, and was even able to make RMS laugh about the whole to GNU or not to GNU Linux naming debate. Personally, I was never a big fan of saying GNU/Linux - I think it sounds awkward and confusing and I did not like RMS demanding that people in his presence use the GNU (right Chris?).
With almighty tequila coursing through my veins, I found myself in the midst of a sermon by RMS on why he believes we need GNU terminology - and coming from his mouth it suddenly made sense (or perhaps that was the tequila too). Linux, or GNU/Linux as RMS would have it, depends not only on the quality of the software but about the freedom within, granted by the GPL. By using the GNU prefix we remind ourselves and others of this. GNU/Linux is not just about the software, but about the ideals behind that software.
But it still sounds awkward. "The problem is," I said to RMS and the others that were still listening, "that you need a catchier name for it. How about calling yourself an "impaladin?"
"Impaladin?" asked RMS
"Yes, impaladin - Have GNU will travel"
RMS laughed - he approved
So feel free to use this new name - maybe even create an impaladin distribution or just laugh at it - but enjoy.
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Isaac Salpeter's take:
The heart of this conference was not to be found on the exhibition floor, nor in the (repetitive axe-grinding of the) keynotes, but in the classes and general sessions. Suggestion for the future: more open discussions and cooperation, less Ralph Nader yammering about how much Microsoft sucks.
Best conversation overheard:
"So, will the Andover party have a cash bar?"
"No, there's free beer."
"Uh-oh, Stallman's gonna be pissed..."
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Annelise Anderson, representing FreeBSD, says:
Whatever its raw edges, The Bazaar conference was worthwhile for the usual networking reasons. The best of the networking went on at the reception hosted by andover.net and the follow-on reception at the FAO Schwarz toy store, an inspired location for this crowd. This one was thanks to FAO Schwartz and IBM.
The BSDs could -- should -- have had a stronger presence here, perhaps with a combined exhibit booth in addition to the volunteers demo-ing on their own computers. Patrick Lynch of the NY users' group organized a pan-BSD BOF; Bob Bruce showed up there and said we might see an IPO with FreeBSD's name on it before the middle of next year. My little Sony picturebook was a source of some amazement -- FreeBSD -current running on such a little thing, with a couple of those stunning Eterms. The publishers in attendance were generally unaware that along with the multiple Linux distros, FreeBSD and the other BSDs exist and transfer an enormous amount of the traffic on the Internet.
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Adam Matos, Systems Administrator and Student, The Beacon School, writes:
While attending The Bazaar here in Manhattan, I found it to be fascinating that so many people support the Linux community. I came with a colleague and teacher of mine, Chris Lehmann, Technology coordinator for The Beacon School. Chris was the one who first showed me Linux and how useful it can be. At Beacon we use Linux on our primary servers and wanted to let others know that schools, too, use Linux.
I attended a tuturial Wednesday morning, Enterprise System Management, that was suposed to teach me about running Linux servers. I walked out 10 minutes into the tuturial. I took a quick look at what was planned for the session and noticed I knew a majority of it. Not because I think I know it all, but because we've done most of it at Beacon. Such things as configuring Samba and writing shell scripts were something I learned under Chris Lehmanns's coordination at school. With less than two years Linux experience, I've been given the title Systems Administrator.
As I leave The Bazaar, I feel more comfortable about how many other Linux enthusiasts are out there. Linux is something everyone I feel can start adapting to. People can change.
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From Nopalzin Torrres, Systems & Network Administrator, IllusionFusion!:
I was nervous when I first arrived, but the Open Source community welcomed my desire to learn and contribute. I walked out of the Building Firewalls with Open BSD tutorial saying "Damn, I can really make this work". I also picked up some great info on Samba and Linux system admin. I had a great time and met some great guys.
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starlady (AKA Jessica Lee Sheffield) finishes off by saying:
Having been to a show every month for the past four months, I thought I had some idea of what to expect when entering the exhibit floor, but my expectations were largely confounded as this was a much smaller show than I have experienced. I wasn't surprised to see Geek Compound 3.0 greet me as I walked through the door - Andover's .org pavilion, which was comprised of Linux.com, Linuxfund.org, NetBSD, KDE, and others, in addition to Slashdot and Freshmeat, of course. As I continued on through the floor looking for the UserFriendly booth, I noticed that several of the powerhouse booths at past shows, notably Red Hat and VA Linux, had a surprisingly subdued presence at this one, while Caldera (of "E-business!" fame at COMDEX) wasn't even in attendance.
The atmosphere at The Bazaar was very community-oriented, which is why it's a shame that the attendance was so low. Without the distractions of marketing ploys, people were free to discuss projects, collaboration, or simply say "Hey, I like your work." I had very nice conversations with some of the leading names in the Open Source community, and even witnessed a random guy walk up to Bob Young, notice his red beret, and ask, "Hey, are you with Red Hat or something?"
When Mr. Young nodded with a smile, the guy proceeded to ask him support questions, while I and Paul Ferris of LinuxToday snuck off before our snickering gave the game away. To his credit, Mr Young was very gracious in answering the man's questions and making him feel comfortable.
The relaxed nature of The Bazaar made it possible for smaller organizations to catch the eye and ear of the community and publicize their own open source efforts. One such was The Beacon School, an alternative public school in New York City where the students administrate Linux servers and run projects on them. The students are very enthusiastic and eager to be involved in the community, and I believe they made a very good impression on the attendees (except perhaps the ones that kept shooting the Nerf weapons kindly provided by Copyleft). Speaking of Nerf, Copyleft's "Shoot the Star Wars action figures, win a prize" campaign was a roaring success. I took a Slashdot frisbee home with me, so I can't complain. :)
All in all, I think The Bazaar was a success for its first year. The traffic wasn't as high as anyone would have liked due to bad placement within the Javits center, but I believe that is something they can improve in the future. The show was a great chance to see old friends and make new ones in the Open Source world, and I think a lot of positive things will come of that.
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There were things that could have been improved, and the timing was wrong; theBazaar was held in the middle of finals week for most area colleges, which I believe was a big factor in the low attendance. And for some reason the heat in the Jacob Javits Convention Center wasn't working properly, which gave the whole thing a (literally) chilly atmosphere. Oh, well. Maybe next year's edition will be better-timed and better-attended.
But if you want more people to visit the booths, you'll need to make the sessions more boring, or get some hideous guest speaker. Next time, I suggest you have Al Gore give a discourse on how he invented the Internet. The booths should have plenty of people looking round, then.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
prophetic in last Sunday's comic?
Boojum
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
It was not a well-attended event, with fewer than 3000 registered visitors
/. about it...
Possibly because it was not well publicised. I would have like to have gone, but I didn't find out about it until after the event.
I don't even remember a mention of
(prepares to be flamed)
This sig left unintentionally blank.
Forgive my offtopic-ness: A lot of times people make RMS out to be this no-fun-and-games kind of stickler. I remember reading a story in Wired about how he absolutely refused to let some guy give him a piggy-back ride, just because it was silly. But then, like yesterday, I hear stories like "POSIX_ME_HARDER" and this story where the fellow said that he made him laugh (he can laugh?), so I think "well, maybe he's just got a bad rep".
Anyone out there know him personally?
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"You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."
Sunday's User Friendly
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
Why doesn't slashdot add a feature to posting so that the first person to read an article will get a big banner saying "YOU ARE THE FIRST PERSON TO READ THIS ARTICLE. WE HAVE AUTOMATICALLY MADE A FOOL OF YOU AND POSTED AN I AM THE FIRST POST MESSAGE FOR YOU".
I think a large reason the attendance was so low was the Metro Transit Authority (MTA) was threatening to strike, which kept a lot of us who live in the NYC area at bay.
Even before an agreement was made, there were delays as buses and trains were held in the station longer than usual by the MTA workers to put the pressure on the city. If people didn't *need* to be in Manhattan, they didn't go near it!
I managed to make it to the Bazaar on Thursday, and actually like a low attendance to a high one. The vendors were more available to answer technical questions without having a bunch of suits there asking "How is this going to facilitate the methodologies for my vertical strategic initiatives......"
Overall a good show, and am looking forward to the Expo in Feb.
Named Have Gun,Will Travel had a protagonist named Paladin. I've only seen one or two episodes at most, but my dad thinks a lot of it.
George
Webster's collegiate says... oh heck, I can't make backwards upside down "e" things...
:)
b(e-upsidedown)-'z(a-with-umlaut)r
sort of like "buh-ZAHR" I think.
Or maybe it's guh-NOME.
----
I dont remember hearing anything on it...at least there should have been a little click banner on here or somthing. *shrug*
so the correct pronunciation is
brah-zeer
As in,
"Did you read that article, the Cathedral and the brah-zeer?"
"Whoa, this is a huge brah-zeer"
"Do you need help opening or closing that brah-zeer?"
"Honey, I have to go to New York City to see an important brah-zeer."
I hope this helps.
George
Impala: a large brownish African antelope. Compare to gnu--a different species of large brownish African antelope.
Paladin: champion of a cause; trusted military leader.
Hence, Impaladin: Impala Paladin, GNU Leader.
Not bad.
That's "Mr. Soulless Automaton" to you, Bub.
Paladin was the main character in the 50's TV series "Have Gun Will Travel". He was a wild west gunslinger and righter of wrongs, sort of...
IMDB has info here.
I happened on The Bazaar completely by accident after my friend had dragged my to the ebusiness conference upstairs. Having found that terribly boring, and thought the people all really boring we wandered downstairs.
The success was that my friend, a Microsoft Certified Professional, was incredibly impressed by how un-phony everyone was, and found himself arguing with himself, unable to accept all the old reasons why Free Software won't work, and why the model will fall. I definitely think we have a convert (Which I must say, I wasn't expecting) - he'll certainly be keeping a close eye on various developments, particularly what Miguel De Icaza does next...
I knew the finals week was in the way for the big chunk of people who would've gone to the Bazaar, but it's better this way because I didn't have to be trampled by them. I think the LinuxWorld Expo would require more space in the Javits Convention Center for college folks to move around. I wish I could buy a Slashdot t-shirt from Copyleft
From now on, we shall call Jeff Bates "Cute Little Hemos!"
I can't wait for LWE!
--
This might be nit-picky but that was totally wrong; it's:
b@'za:(r)
where @ = ago
and a: = arm
then you'd make a big deal of $3(0//D P0$7
I was at The Bazaar. It was a lot of fun.
Yes, the exhibit hall was a bit sparsely attended. I can't say that I blame the attendees, though. To be honest, I was disappointed with the exhibit hall. There were a few interesting things here and there (I loved the magician that Andover.net hired!), and some interesting conversations, but by and large, after spending an hour in the exhibit hall, I got bored.
I still think the conference was a success, though. I went to two of the tutorials, and came out of them feeling that I'd definitely learned some useful stuff. The keynotes that I saw were at least mildly interesting; they might've said some things I knew, but they definitely said some I didn't, and it was interesting to hear it from the source. The Andover.net party was faboo (thanks, guys!), and the FAO Schwarz party was cool. It was fun to hang out with Roblimo and Hemos and Trae McCombs for a while; I don't think I can call it networking, because I doubt they'd have remembered me half an hour later, much less any time in the future.
If The Bazaar happens again, and it's still in NYC, and I'm still in NYC, I'll go again. It has room to grow and improve, certainly, but there was also a lot of good stuff there already.
-Joe
I doubt that I am the only one who didn't get the `impaladin' in-joke, and why it is appropriate as the new name for GNU/linux. Anyone in-the-know care to enlighten?
I don't get impaladin, however paladin is the name for a character class in AD&D. They are holy warriors who constantly fight for whats right and good. If they fall off the path they lose everything that makes them special. Kind of like GNU/Linux, a fight for whats right and good in the software world, and those who fall off the path(IE make a proprietary version of the linux kernel or GNU untilites without completely rewriting the code will be sued and lose what they gain from GNU. Also, they do all this not for money(they aren't allowed to keep more money than they need) but because they truly believe in the ideals, like OSS programmers who mainly believe in the software not the money. Though I'd view the whole movement as chaotic or neutral good rather than lawful good as paladins must be. I could be completely wrong on the intent, and I have no clue what the prefix 'im' means, but the AD&D paladin class may well be the inspiration, and thats what I took it as.
I went, but due to some other meetings that I had on those days, I only caught the end of the show.
The part that got me was if you read the show program. There were a couple of big mistakes in it. One that caught my eye was the notes on CmdrTaco saying that he co-founder and contributor to slash.org. While those of us that are loyal readers, will understand, the people that wandered upstairs from the ebusiness expo might be confsed.
Also what is with all this "News for Geeks, Stuff that matters" That they used in the program.
Other then that, I am bummed that I didn't get to meet as many people as I would have liked to. There is always next time..
You know you're a redneck Jedi if:
You consider your lightsaber the best bugzapper yet invented
To E-mail me, replace the first period in my domain with an @
Just like in Linux, it doesn't (Sony hasn't released the specs yet.) Generally, a Win partition is kept around for that purpose.
As someone pointed out, RMS wasn't there much, which was a shame. He took the time in New York to visit his sick mother at the hospital, so I guess he's excused.
The andover.net party was terrific, and it was sad that we had to be dragged away from it to go to FAO Schwarz, which I didn't particularly enjoy.
Oh, I tagged along with RMS, Bruce Perens and some other people to a burmese restaurant at Broome Street in NYC (number 380 if I remember correctly). The place is called "Mandalay Palace" and I strongly recommend it.
From us in the FSF booth, I'd like to say Thank you! to the various volunteers who played with our computers and got them moderately working, and likewise to everone who kept talking about freedom and everyone who bought things from us.
Thank you....
./ Not only does he make much more sense in person, but he also seems to be a pretty nice guy
I've had that particular pun floating around in my head for quite some time now and was just waiting for a good chance to try it out - talking to RMS was definately good.
And to answer some other questions...speaking to RMS in person was much more informative than reading about him and his ideals here on
But impaladin can also be: the name of a distribution, toolkit, consultant....pretty much any noun that is portable and uses GNU
Jordan
I think RMS meant that as in, "I won't die without having done my best to change the world." But you should ask him yourself instead of relying on what people tell you and what you think he meant.
Yes, that was nitpicky. :)
:)
Perhaps you pronounce things completely differently than I do, but to me...
buh ~= the "a" in ago, and
zahr (if it were a word) would be pronounced exactly like the first part of "arm" with a "z" in front of it.
However, I'm not a particularly cunning linguist, so feel free to tear that apart, too.
(Actually, Webster's isn't much help, because their example for how to pronounce the sound \a:\ when it's spelled "aa" is the word... "bazaar")
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But now I see what you're talking about Thanks for the hint, AC.
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I met him at a talk in Vancouver once, and talked to him afterwards. Several things struck me. He does seem to have a sense of humour in many way, but he is also very obbsessive about many things. For example, don't ever talk about "Open Source" software, only "Free Software".
There's no reason for a sig here.
And the embarassing ignorance shown by Declan McCullagh and Wired in trying to ridicule Gore for his pronounciation of "router"! Yes, the correct prounciation is "raut-er" if you're talking about a wood-working tool! But cisco makes machines which selects routes (a new meaning, not in standard dictionaries), so surely the pronounciation he used is completely valid. (I've heard many versions of the American classic "Route 66" and all pronounced it "root 66." Now where are the songs about routers?)
Hmmm, Richard is still personally offended by the mention of Linux in his presence. To paraphrase, "no one should own software, but if you don't call I claim is mine by the name I prefer, I will take great umbrage".
No, I wasn't involved in the creation of any of the original Linux distributions. I never rolled my own OS with linux 0.99. But I can make some educated guesses as to what that primordial atmosphere was like.
First of all, there was no GNU System in 1993-94. All there was from the GNU camp was a collection of software. Linus managed to get some GNU software running under his linux prototype. No big deal, and certainly not sufficient to call the result "GNULinux". After all, at the same time, I was using gcc, emacs and some other GNU software under OS/2.
So then Linus gets his kernel working. Added to this were some core OS parts like lilo. Missing is a central C library. Linus wanted to use GNU's. But it didn't work with Linux! It was Linus and Co., *not* RMS Esq., that ported glibc to Linux. Bear this in mind, GNU was ported to Linux, and not the other way around.
Add in a few naughty non-GNU stuff like a filesystem, drivers, etc., and you still don't have a workable OS. Throw in some GNU software, some BSD software, and a few other miscellaneous pieces, and you now have something that can be called an OS. Where are we, 1995? There is still no GNU Sytem. But a lot of GNU software is vastly improved however, the beneficiary of a thousand prying eyes. A new paradigm had arisen not seen before. It didn't come from the ivory towers or dank dungeons of MIT, but from the trenches of Finland, Norway, India, Brazil, United States, Germany, and other equally important locations too numerous to mention.
Enter the first ur-distro. Probably only three or four floppy disks given to a neighbor. From this humble creature with the bravery to crawl up from the antediluvian sludge into the bright sunlit atmosphere, arose all of the distributions we know today.
And what did this ur-distro contain? Four basic parts: kernel, infrastructure, libraries and apps. The kernel was Linux, and included some non kernel stuff like drivers and lilo. The infrastructure was provided by the ur-distro and included stuff like init scripts and messy bits. The libraries, for the most part, originated from GNU. But remember that they were ported to Linux. Finally, there were the applications. Stuff like bash, gcc, lprd, slipd, etc. Most of the front end apps were GNU. Most of the back end were BSD. However, none of the apps were truly necessary for an operating system.
As I see it, this ur-distro does not resemble the GNU System as envisioned by the FSF. The only essential part of the distro is glibc, and that had to be ported to get it to work. The other GNU software are not essential. Of all of them, only bash is the universal default of the various distributions, but it can be trivially replaced by any other shell.
In short, contrary to the claims of RMS, the Linux kernel was NOT inserted into the GNU System as its final missing piece. Rather, pieces of GNU were inserted into what its creator named "Linux" to add functionality.
If RMS wants to see a genuine GNU System, then it is up to him to make it. He has all the parts. Just finish hurd, and release a new distro called "GNU". Or use the Linux kernel temporarily and call it "Linux/GNU". But until I can download a workable version from ftp.gnu.org, there is no such thing as the GNU System.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
"Cause there's 40 different shades of black, so many fortresses and ways to attack, so why you complainin'?"
A lot of people actually came up from eBusiness expo, which was very nice. Tom Turner from the FSF was down at the eBusiness handing out GNU papers to people, so hopefully that accounted for some traffic. We tried to hang some GNOME/FSF banners in the main hallway over the stairs to the lowest level, but we had to take them down due to "union regulations." Blah.
It was indeed fun. I also got to be on TV. Hemos had told some reporter about me. When I spoke with the reporter on the morning of the interview, I decided to test his awareness of open-source issues, and had the following exchange:
Dave: Do you know of Richard Stallman?
Reporter: Yes.
Dave: Eric Raymond?
Reporter: No. But I did read the GPL for the first time last night. It's funny though, it reads like a religious manifesto.
Dave: Welcome aboard!
I wound up spending a few minutes under the lights later in the day, just after Hemos, and just before someone else from IBM.
dave
So should we expect an Impaladin notebook line, preloaded with Debian, from VA Linux? :-)
At LinuxWorldExpo back in March. I watch several people come up to him and ask him to sign their book. RMS would look down at it and say "Not an O'Reilly! Find another book and I'll sign that". For that five minutes I was looking at the things in the FSF booth, I saw four people come up and ask him, and he gave the same answer each time.
I'm not sure what O'Reilly did, but I think it had to do something with Sendmail. Anyone know the details?
Steven Rostedt
Steven Rostedt
-- Nevermind
Let's not be ridiculingly prescriptivist here. It's not a matter of right or wrong. This is just the way it is. It may not be a prestige accent from Nyoo Yawk, but it's a legitimate American accent from the heartland, one that's been around a long, long time. And considering that it conserves more different pronunciations than do places in the country where these many r- words have merged together due to more frequent wear and tear there, it's probably an older one, too.
Actually, ESR dancing while surrounded by gorgeous techno-talking women was cute. And no, unlike the above, this was NOT a fantasy.
Yes, it was originally elitist in nature (sort of like the "fans are Slans" statement back in the 50's -- go look up the Slan books, which are ridiculous Nietsche style hero race books), but the original meaning is long gone today. Much as the original meaning of the word "gay" (to be happy) is long gone today, replaced with today's meaning of the word "gay" (to be homosexual).
-E
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
I had initially registered for the event, but then realized that it was to be a Tuesday-Thursday event close to Christmas in New York City. This means that airfare would cost a fortune (no Saturday or Sunday stay over) and hotels, which are always expensive in NYC, would be even more so, due to the holiday shopping crowds.
I decided that I could not afford to spend $1000-US or more and take time off of work to attend a conference on free software. While I write free software (Postilion), I cannot afford to spend like this to attend a conference about it.
Good thing I didn't go - my credentials didn't show up until the day of the conference.
-nic
All opinions expressed are mine, if you want them it'll cost you.
I was at the labs this last weekend and some time before that. Who are you? :-)
I think the main reason for the failure is that the Bazaar was an attempt to leverage the success of Linux, in hopes that it might rub off on other projects. It didn't work because it wasn't billed as a Linux event. There's little doubt that if the Bazaar had been named "the Linux Bazaar" attendance would have been huge, especially with its physical proximity to Wall Street.
All in all, I think it calls into question the idea that there is an "Open Source" phenomenon per se. Now we all know that there is the "Linux phenomenon", but it is not clear if there is widespread interest in "Open Source" beyond its traditional constituency. So far non-Linux events have not drawn big crowds.
I really don't understand why so many people seem to take such deep offense at what comes down to a naming issue. Whether or not to call it GNU/Linux or Linux. Personally, I prefer GNU/Linux, but I don't think it honestly matters.
:)
Consider what the terminology is for. It's supposed to get across what it is that you're dealing with. I think that both names accomplish that. RMS' point about attaching GNU to Linux to accentuate the freedom that comes along with GNU/Linux is something that I think is good and very important, but at the same time, totally superfluous for beginning users and the PHBs out there that are trying to get their minds around the concept of why somebody would give software away in the first place. Calling it just Linux in my mind is also totally functional, (since that's what it is) but I think it denies the theoretical, philosophical, and practical reasons behind why most of the software is what it is and how it got there. But again, this point is totally superfluous to beginners and PHBs.
People often want to squabble over what percentage of code in the "Linux System" is from GNU. Then some say it doesn't matter how much is from GNU, only the amount that is GPL'd. Others want to extend that from GPL'd to "Free Software". But one thing is for sure in my mind (and since this is an opinion post, it has to be in my mind since I'm not speaking for anybody else) is that even if we were solidly able to nail down what percentage of code was ever written by, sanctioned by, looked at by, or breathed on by RMS, we still wouldn't be able to say, "Ok, at X% we can officially call it GNU/Linux".
I think some of the naming war goes back to the differences between the "Open Source" camp and the "Free Software" camp. For the record, to disclose my biases, I'm with Bruce Perens when he wrote his article "It's time to talk about Free Software Again" when he resigned from OpenSource Initiative - Open Source was meant as a rebranding, not a replacement. I think that that comes in here in that people want to rebrand GNU/Linux to suit their political motivations, i.e. getting more businesses to adopt linux, or increasing its commercial success. Here's where the sticking point is, because we've got two major camps in the linux community as I see it. The first wants to talk about freedom, and the second wants the software to be popular. People of course can argue about that point, but as far as I can see, the only point of the open source initiative is to push it onto outside people and increase the popularity of GNU/Linux. I'm not against that, but I am against it when it comes to weakening what GNU/Linux means. (And what GNU software means in the larger sense - freedom)
SO! On one hand, it really doesn't matter what you call it. I'm often a bit lazy in writing style and I'll write Linux even though I mean GNU/Linux. No matter what you call it, as long as you get the functional point across as to what you mean, (and don't call it something like FooOS or "Gnulix") then it really doesn't matter to me personally much (and probably not 90% of other people) but what does kind of tick me off is people saying that the name GNU/Linux is totally illegitimate or silly for any myriad of reasons. I think the name GNU/Linux is totally justified and should be preferred when talking about specifics and not in a conversational sense.
So, I guess all of that makes me just another fence straddler.
-- Truth goes out the door when rumor comes innuendo. -- Groucho Marx
That cartoon is funny in hindsight, because it was prophetic as you put it, but at the same time, putting myself in the shoes of someone who hasn't read this slashdot article yet, it doesn't make any sense.
Am I missing anything?
-- Truth goes out the door when rumor comes innuendo. -- Groucho Marx
And that's what we MUST try to change! The fundamental issues of freedom is what our community is all about, all other issues of price, stability et al, are secondary.
It's here.
No, that's not what some people want. Some people, like me, would rather have lower quality tools that was free software, than high quality tools that were non-free. Fortunately, it has turned out that free tools generally become much better than non-free tools, so I don't have to make that trade-off, but I'd be willing to do that if I had to. And I don't have anything against commercial vendors, or people making money from free software. In fact, I encourage them to go out and sell free software, or free software support, or free documentation. You can have both working software, freedom AND make a nice profit.
Well, don't use it then. Or improve upon it so it can boot on your machine.
Well, I don't think I'd ever call it "silly" to educate the public about the importance of freedom. Chances are that if they don't care, they've already lost large parts of it, which makes our job even more important!
Maybe to you and I. However, most people don't give a damn about software freedom. If I asked my sister or my father what "free software" was, they'd assume it meant price. For these people, it's best just to try to bring them the best possible system.
I'm pretty sure that they would take the time to ask you what "free software" was, because you probably know more about computers than they know. So take the time and explain it to them, don't just assume that they wouldn't want non-free software. Maybe they will still prefer non-free software, but that would then be their choice, and at least they would then be enlightened about the issues of freedom.
Do you know that they do not care, or do you assume that they do not care? If they really don't care, that's fine. Unfortunate, but there's nothing we can or will do about it. I wouldn't mind if you told me about your interests. If you told me about your religion, for example, I might not agree with it, but at least I would be free to make that judgement myself and not have someone else stand in front of me telling people what I would like to know and what I don't like to know.
Ah! I understand what you're getting at. But you seem to make the assumption that freedom is an software issue. Part of it is, yes, but there's a greater social issue involved in it too.
> Such things as configuring Samba and writing shell scripts were something I learned under Chris Lehmanns's coordination at school.
Oh, fuck that. Whats the difference between such a "System Administrator" and an MCSE?
Not a lot.
Probably about none.
You're not using GNU/Solaris or GNU/Irix because the freedom that you get from GNU software on those platforms is not what the platform is about. They're closed UNIX systems that have nothing to do with freedom. By chance, they happen to run GNU software, but the whole point of the software is not freedom, choice, or anything that has anything to do with free software. Those platforms are about money.
Now, contrasted with Linux, which IS about freedom, free software, and choice, GNU/Linux makes sense.
And it's not really about glory hounding either. The kernel is an important part of the system, and so it's called GNU/Linux. I wouldn't have gone along, but I dont think stallman would have been way out in left field to ask people to call the whole damn thing "The GNU System" because within the framework of GNU software, that's exactly what it is. There are a lot of things that Stallman is after, (most of which would actually benefit you in the long run if you'd just stop fighting so hard against them) but I don't think glory is one of them.
-- Truth goes out the door when rumor comes innuendo. -- Groucho Marx
Well, BSD (OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD) is free software, so it's fine to use it. We've used NetBSD extensively in the GNU Project, and still do for some critical servers.
I try to be conscious about such issues too, yes. It's not practically possible for me to be as conscious about them as I am about software, but I try. If you wish to discuss this more, feel free to email me (Slashdot is rather inconvenient for long-term discussions).
Well, I don't care about if Microsoft uses code from BSD. They are free to do so. What I do care about is that even though the BSD code is free software, I don't have the freedom to change the TCP-stack in Windows if I find it buggy. And this is why BSD code is free for some people, but it isn't always free.
I was given this choice and chose free, as I will for my next one.
Chris DiBona
--
Grant Chair, Linux Int.
VP, SVLUG
Co-Editor, Open Sources
Open Source Program Manager, Google, Inc.
Are you ACTUALLY afraid of a GNU cult??? (of course the next comment out of your mouth is "Of course cults do that too - they try to convince you that they're not a cult or they try to play down their evil, hideous ways")
You're smoking CRACK man. Sure, GNU and cults have things in common, but then again you and Adolf Hitler have things in common in that you're both human.
People are always looking to smell conspiracy and evil.
-- Truth goes out the door when rumor comes innuendo. -- Groucho Marx
the real problem with that argument is that you end up *paying* M$ or anyone else for the use of your own software if it becomes popular enough -- i mean how many people will pay for Mac OS X who also code BSD and probably wrote important bits of MacOSX/BSD ? At least with the GPL you dont get ripped off legally.
Originally the Paladins, or Palatine Knights, were a group of 12 knights at the court of Charlemagne. "Paladin" and "Palatine" mean "of the palace", and also refer to the Palatine Hill, the first of the seven hills of ancient Rome.
Both these Paladins and the AD&D character class were of necessity born to the warrior aristocracy -- not necessarily an image fitting the more meritocratic free-software movement. There used to be flamewars in Dragon magazine, back in the days of original AD&D, over the fact that because paladins had to be aristocrats by birth, they could not rise from the masses.
Ever read "The True Believer"?
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
I hope that people in GNU doesn't do this, and indeed, I can't think of anyone that does. We always tend to question what RMS says, because we want to find what the Right Thing is. Most of the time, RMS is right, but there are times when he's not, and we work together to find the Right Thing.
I would have gone to the bazzar in a heartbeat, but it was timed poorly for many college students. The bazzar conflicted badly with finals week.
A buddhist walks up to a hot dog stand and says ``Make me one with everything.''
I moderated him down because I hate Tom. Do I need any other reason?
Well, I was hoping for something more like "I moderated him down because his argument seemed pointless." Would've at least been more like what moderation's supposed to be for - scoring the usefulness of the comment instead of just whether you like the opinion and/or the poster.
In all truth, though, I don't know that there's much to be done to fix the moderation system. Like it or not, it does seem to improve S/N in a mostly fair and reasonable manner. And granted, there are those who'll abuse it (show me a way to create an abuse-proof situation with any sentient interaction and I'll show you something likely not worth using).
Finally, in Tom's defense, I've found his to be some of the best-constructed, most sensible arguments on Slashdot, even when I disagree with his views. And that is something that Slashdot is all too sorely lacking.
</grouse>
-Drayke
-Drayke
If all the world's a stage, it must have been an easy audition.
RMS was the one who explained it!
--The basis of all love is respect
Personally, I'm deeply in the descriptive linguistics camp, although becoming less so as I try to convince my three-year-old to use prounciations that other people can understand. Still, his slightly-off pronounciations of some words is very cute, like compoooooter (very long 2nd syllable, missing "y" sound) and "Electra City" (for electricity).
BTW, I think coming up with unambiguous and obvious ways to convey pronounciation in ascii is a wonderful challenge. ASCII IPA is nice, but fails the obviousness test.
I received an email the other day from gnu.org (it was not RMS). It was an attempt to set me straight on a few points. What struck me as hilarious, which I did not point out in my reply, was that the arguments were almost word or word identical to those of Richard Stallman as posted on www.gnu.org. Furthermore, the writer kept refering to himself as "we".
Suffice it to say, I did not get the impression that this writer had original thoughts or questioned what RMS says. Rather, I could almost imagine him asking Richard "how high."
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
It's a GNU joke. He is to be made the Impaladin, Gnuser of free software and Mooseter of all he surveys :) ever Gazeelepful, uh... *runs away before being arrested as a pundit ;) *
I could say more about the intentional deception, but you should just laugh instead.
Impala: a large brownish African antelope. Compare to gnu--a different species of large brownish African antelope.
My Impala is a large greenish Chevrolet muscle car.
It'll never happen with McDougle's (Definition of a McDougle) sitting around pressing F5 on Slashdot all the time. In order to get a score, don't people/machines need to read this? Can't they scan for them (yes I know you can pose a limit if you want.. mine's at 0)
To be fair, we weren't quite 'invading' since I'm a long time Linux user / watcher, and was more than happy to leave the expo behind.
/any/ pictures of Steve Blood on the net - just that he is the spitting image of the person I went with (to a scary extent) and I have to get a picture to put next to the one of my friend ;-)
But you are right - we were welcomed very nicely!
BTW, are there
That's why we tell them about Open Source, rather than emphasizing Free Software. Those people need to hear about the practical benefits of freedom before they'll appreciate freedom. You can't sell them on the idea by pointing out that they don't have freedom (which is what RMS does). He's right, of course. But there are many people who don't really care.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
I wanted to go, but my job placed a ban on all vacation time between December 1 and January 15. I suspect I wasn't alone in this. Running a geek show near Y2K wasn't a terribly wise thing to do.
I hope they don't kill the event because of the poor turnout; it sounded like a lot of fun.
I know full-well that "root" can be pronounced at least two different ways, but since it didn't matter to my arguments I didn't try to distinquish between them. Wired said: "But [Gore] mispronounced 'routers' as root-ers" and since I can't tell which way they meant, I just stuck with their form. I should have quoted it, attributed it, and marked it with "sic," I supposed.
"Basically, they're a bit parasitic to the community."
What have you given back to the community? A slashdot posting?!? 99% of the community has never written software, submitted a bug report, written documentation, or even mailed a polite thank you note to any developer. But you call ORA the parasite for providing documentation and funding? I don't know where you GNU fanatics buy your dictionaries, but someone needs to sue that bookseller for fraud!
"When they hold free software events, they make it a policy to explicitly not invite some of the original community members (Stallman was not invited to the Summit, for instance)."
RMS is the only one they refuse to invite. And they have good reason not to. He continually refuses to adhere to decorum and rules of order. He is in the habit of ignoring the time limits on talks, ignoring the topic at hand (the topic which attendees paid to hear), and verbally assaulting reporters who use the word "Linux" in his presence.
"However, O'Reilly tries to paint themselves as really big free software/open source supporters, while in reality acting to maximize profit, sometimes sabotaging the movement. This hypocracy pisses me off, and presumably, the FSF as weal."
And what is wrong with trying to maximize one's profit? Isn't that what YOU do every day at work? If that is RMS's big concern, then he should come right out and declare money to be immoral and be done with it, instead of beating around the bush saying how it's okay for Free Software to be commercial.
And precisely how has ORA sabotaged the Open Source movement? Was it by not following the FSF dictates to the letter? If anything, they have helped Open Source by letting it be known that RMS does not hold a monopoly on software ideology.
In case you have forgotten, RMS was not opposed to non-free documentation, and even encouraged selling documentation as a means to finance free software, until ORA started publishing books about GNU software. Then, and only then, did he decide that ORA was evil.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
In general, the FSF tries to be the highest price seller of the things they sell. So it's interesting to know where you got the idea that RMS thinks that maximizing profit is a bad thing.
I dragged my boyfriend along with me on Tuesday and I think seeing RMS speak finally convinced him to make room on one of his winDOH! boxes for a dual boot. Aside from the fact that every person we tried to talk to approached my boyfriend rather than me (he was actually the one to point this out..maybe i'll take this over to LinuxChix ;) ) I found it a pretty enjoyable. After reading all the posts, I guess I regret not hitting the Andover party but hey, it's finals season.
Hey, are any of the speakers providing their presentation notes/tutorials on the web?
FWIW, I have the slides from my two Bazaar talks available at http://www.erols.com/pavlicek/bibli ography.html.
As an active member in the Linux community for a while now, I looked at the Bazaar as a success for a number of reasons.
.... what can I say. The three days spent with the Linux folks was a bit more useful. Isn't
First of all, this may have been the first time that the NYC Linux and Free Software groups were able to participate
in a convention of this sort locally. New Yorkers have a different take on open source than in the rest of the country.
It was surreal for the Open Source expo to be on top of the e-business expo, looking down on the best the business
world had to offer. I spent most of the three days talking and learning about networking, computer technology,
and internet business, with a core of the brightest developers available today. I spent time manning our both at
LXNY with my friend Mike Smith, trying to explain why open source software was the computing technology of
tomorrow. I got some good old skepticism from business people working in the NYC IT scene, but I think we
represented the Open Source argument well. Then I spent much time in the Apache Course and the SAMBA
course, both of which I was immediately able to put to use. I got to here RMS talk. I think after listening to him,
he deserves much of the criticism he has come to get. Crossing RMS with an Israeli Immigrant whose sole
interest in software is to gain the freedom to feed his family and establish himself in the land of opportunity
of ours was a unique duality of perspective.
On the middle day, I enjoyed spending time with many of my Linux friends at FAO Schwartz. But before
going, we held our normal meeting at IBM and heard about the development of the Jike Java compiler
at IBM by the developer. HE was very impressed with Slashdot and has a great story about Rob's use
of the IBM logo. It was great to see the entire NYC community in action. The expo also allowed for the
kick off of the new Linux Newbies SIG in NYC, which took place in one of the expo rooms. So the
show galvanized us to a large degree.
It also trickled down to my Perl course that I teach at the New School in the Village. Many of the
students attended and wanted to hear about things as they happened at the Bazaar. Over all, the show
had great impact.
And consider this. After 3 draining days of learning, teaching and networking with the best and the brightest
of the open source movement, I then had the pleasure to spend a half hour at the e-commerce so. When I walked
in, I was immediately greeted by a tall women with a Television covering her head, dancing and giving away
tee-shirts. Well
that how we should measure success?
http://www.mrbrklyn.com/amsterdam.html http://www.brooklyn-living.com
I too agree that NYC is 'spensive. Why not Boston or Hartford ? If it were in either of those places I would have an easier time getting my company to pay for it and let me go ( I did manage to get them to pay for it this year but as the show was lacking in some areas, it may not be easy to get the funding for next year ). Also, Why did it take so many days to get a story posted when the Bazaar was over last thursday night ? (BTW: Great party at FAO Schwartz !)
UPS Sucks
I have the choice of purchasing The Complete and Official GNU Software Collection for several thousand dollars, or downloading it for free. Same warranties, support and functionality. I suspect that the number of people who purchased that package without any intention of charity of donation approaches 0.025%. This is not to belittle RMS though. He does provide a valuable service through GNU in that you can pay for custom versions or ports of GNU software.
However, every existing item of Free or Open Source Software that's for sale is also available as a "Free Beer" download. If an item of software is unavailable as a free download, even temporarily, then RMS does not like it and will readily tell you so. If you then have the temerity to use the words "free" or "open" in proximity to such a product, you will reap upon yourselves unending scorn.
Just ask Troll Tech, Aladdin, Apple, Sun, or a host of other companies. In Sun and Apple's case, they have earned a far greater wrath from GNU advocates than if they had never attempted the open their products to begin with.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
Personally, when I read about the Bazaar, I figured it was way over my head. I'm somewhat of a linux novice. I'm able to get around a command prompt without too much sweat, but the bazaar seemed like a league away from where I was standing. Maybe a little better PR would be in order next time?
When I saw RMS at the Bazaar, he seemed reminiscent of the Lorax. (Dr. Seuss, in case that doesn't ring a bell.) He came across as very idealistic and a nice guy to boot. There was a marked contrast between his ideas and some of the other advocates' emphasis on acceptance of the open source movement by the business world.
:)
"I am the Lorax, I speak for the software..."
Something like that.
Parasitic would only fit if they didn't give anything back - O'Reilly makes some of the best documentation out there... Certainly better than the average HOWTO.
It's a symbiotic relationship.
Plus - since when does a publisher have to agree with everything spouted by some guy with far left leanings? The open-source community is diverse, with the purists all the way to the pragmatists (I'll admit it - I'm somewhere in that latter group). O'Reilly seems to pop up around that area as well. What's wrong with that?
- Jeff A. Campbell
- VelociNews (http://www.velocinews.com)
- Jeff
how many people were there exactly ?