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What we needs in Bush's US are some Constitutional Rights Zones

People are trying...

What about the libertarians? They're not claiming to be akin to a swing state, they're basically trying to CREATE a swing state!

"I hate to be a buzzkill, but is there ANY realistic reason why sending people to Mars is good science?"

Science, shmience, we need more states. The US has been without a frontier to expand into for the better part of a century, and the lack of a release valve for independent political and/or philosophical thinkers is beginning to wear away at us. Putting a few Martian stars (or Lunar or what have you) on the flag seems preferable to taking over somebody else's state.

We haven't had a state government that wasn't dominated by Republicans and Democrats since... well, pretty much since the last of the 48 contiguous entered the Union. I suspect the two are related.

"Billions of tax dollars shouldn't be blown on a project of little scientific validity just because "it's cool.""

Ever taken a look at the amount of money the federal government had to spend to irrigate the American Southwest before populating places like AZ, NM and NV? Not to mention all those railroads...

</CRACKPOT>

The secondary plan you described is called the Free State Project. Read up.

I conclude that we need to gather 20,000 geeks and move to North Dakota. Who's with me?

Don't you mean New Hampshire? If so, you've got about 6,000 with you so far.

A libertarian organization is trying to realize their ideals in exactly the manner you suggest.

hence the free state project.

That's what the Free State Project is about. Moving 20,000 libertarian-minded activists to New Hampshire, who pledge to work within the system to roll back government at the local and state level. But if some people are inclined to work towards a solution for big government at the federal level, why not let them? It does no harm, and if those people wouldn't be working towards liberty at the local and state level, it takes no resources away from where the real gains will be made.

see also www.freestateproject.org

Two websites I would like every libertarian reader of this article to know about:

• Libertarian Wiki (think Wikipedia for libertarianism)
• the Free State Project

Regarding our current system, what do you think can be done to encourage people to vote for third party candidates? It seems to me that most people still feel it's a "wasted vote."

The reason people believe this is because we're lying to them. We're lying by telling them that in an election as large as the U.S. presidential election, their individual votes matter. They don't. It's essentially a statistical impossiblity for a single vote to affect the outcome of an election this large.

Those of us who know math know that you don't play the lottery to make money (though you might do so for fun). Elections this large are no different: voting because you think you can affect who becomes President of the U.S. is, well, stupid. There are other reasons to vote, though, such as a sense of moral responsibility or civic duty. And here's the part relevant to your question: since you can't affect the outcome of the election by voting, you can't "waste" that vote by casting it for a third-party candidate; in essence, you're throwing it away by voting in the first place.

I know that's kind of depressing, but so what? Should we sugar-coat reality just so the plebes don't realize how powerless they are? I find that even more depressing; let them know the truth, and then maybe we can start to fix things. One way to do so would be to push more power down in the governmental hierarchy: less power in the federal government, more in the states and even in cities, etc. That way, each person can greater control over the way government affects his own life, not only by voting and other public involvement in his own region, but also by having a greater variety of governmental systems to choose from within the U.S. (The Free State Project is a great example of the kind of thing that would be much more effective with less power concentrated in the federal government.)

Mike

(This is essentially a restatement and expansion of my previous post.)

"but I seem to recall that Pa. is the place to which people who'd been bothered for not accepting their local religion went to avoid persecution...?"

That was a Long Time Ago, and Pennsylvania (like the rest of the nation) has long since been overrun by the apathetic masses.

This is why the US needs a new frontier, as a safety valve for proponents of new/different ideas can go off and form their own, new states instead of having to take over an existing state.

The Supreme Court issue is the most important one at hand, methinks. Slashdot poll, anyone? What is the most important political issue at stake? War
Draft
Taxes
Personal Liberty/Civil Rights
Supreme Court Justices


etc
p.s. sure you know of it, but the Free State Project is always fun. Go home state!
--Petey

Allowed??! Allowed?!?!?

Have you learned nothing about the nature of technology from the perverse antics of the RIAA?

You can make an algorithm "illegal", but you damn well can't stop it from being used. In my (not even remotely Humble) opinion, that's why, utlimately, the only realistic political stance is a Libertarian one.

All Hail New Hampshire, then.

--Petey

I couldn't agree more. And that's why I am a supporter of the Free State Project .

Liberty in our Lifetime!

Move to the Free State. about 200,000 libertarian Slashdotters should be able to make a big impact there.

Their goal is to create a Free State out of New Hampshire, that will combine the personal freedom of Holland with the economic freedom of Hong Kong. They are already attempting to change gun laws to allow concealed weapon carrying without a license. Raw milk sales are not regulated. Congresspeople are part-timers and get paid $100 a year. The state government is small and the crime rate is low. If the Free State takes off, the Free State could act as an example to the rest of the US and there would probably be a lot of calling for overturning laws like the one mentioned in this article.

The Free State Project is an attempt by a group of libertarians to move 20,000 people to the state of New Hampshire with the intention of reducing the size, complexity, and involvement of the government in everyday affairs.

I'm not sure about the whole thing. I agree with it in principle, but it seems a bit underhanded to me to attempt to manipulate the political system like this.

It's a generally held belief that since September 11th the government has been clamping down in a way that has made a lot of people uncomfortable, but surely there must be another way of dealing with the issues raised. If these 20,000 people, as well as half the people on /. and some of their relatives and friends wrote their congresspeople, wouldn't the effect be greater, and have greater scope?

What!?

Liberty in our Lifetime.

For those of us in the United States, I strongly urge you to look at things like the Free State Project. (http://www.freestateproject.org)This isn't a bunch of wackos looking to move to Montana for another Waco holdout, it's made of people like you who will stand up, be active, and work within New Hampshire (already the best representative State with only 3000 people per Rep, as well as strongly libertarian minded) to reduce the size of government. It's our only hope, because the more they pass nonsense like this, the more you and your neighbors had better stand together...

If p2p becomes a crime, you want your neighbors to defend you when the thoughtcrime police show up. And don't kid yourselves, we are rapidly coming to that.... The day when you click on the wrong download button and the police knock on your door is already here.
Don't own a computer? Get sued by the RIAA
12 years old? Get sued by the RIAA
66 Years old and never used a computer? Yes, Get sued by the RIAA
Now just imagine the force of the WIPO, and 'the law' bolstering this nonsense...

Oh wait... it's about money... that's right.
The RIAA versus the people: the RIAA has the money.
The Car Makers versus the people: The Car Makers have the money.

It's not about principle, it's about money.

There is only one way to fix this: get GOVERNMENT out of the way. Politicians will ALWAYS be bought and sold, unless they lack the power to do anything in the first place. If they couldn't pass a law in the first place, nobody would pay them to pass a law (or ignore a law).

What can you do to reduce government power?
Join the Free State Project, and find out! We're reducing government because power corrupts and government power corrupts double standardly so.

From the intro:
The Free State Project is a plan in which 20,000 or more liberty-oriented people will move to New Hampshire, where they may work within the political system to reduce the size and scope of government. The success of the Free State Project would likely entail reductions in burdensome taxation and regulation, reforms in state and local law, an end to federal mandates, and a restoration of constitutional federalism, demonstrating the benefits of liberty to the rest of the nation and the world.

The current Libertarian Presidential nominee, Michael Badnarik is a member, as are almost 6,000 others. New Hampshire is a very tech friendly state, considered to be one of the best places to live, no income tax, no sales tax, low unemployment... Join us! We're already making a difference in NH, and most of us haven't even moved yet!

FCC
Microbroadcasting:

FCC
Microbroadcasting:

it's all about control for them. What they stop? Who did they help? Who did they 'protect'? Google will spend time and energy fighting this, or have to work around it, and nobody benefits except the lawmakers who claim they 'did the right thing'.

Yeah, just like CANSPAM stopped spam. (it didn't)

Are you tired of government doing things like this? Me too.

That's why I've join the Free State Project. Imagine 20K liberty minded people all standing up for freedom, willing to be politcally active, and using technology and common sense to achieve a free society. We'll advocate for the end of victimless crime laws (no more drug laws, sex laws, nanny laws), allow privacy tools like encryption, and reduce the size government down to as small as we can make it, lowering taxes, and always respect the rights of those around us. Are you even mildly libertarian? Do you believe that this country is becoming more and more about 'You aren't allowed unless the state says so?' Join us, and help achieve liberty in your lifetime.

No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this Earth.

This means there is an inevitable tendancy of Government to restrict freedom ever more wretchedly. DMCA? Abusive patent ovverreach? PATRIOT? All merely corollaries of the root problem, my friends!

That's why I am posting this: The Free State Project

As far as I can tell, it's our best chance to have a free society. Even ESR thinks so (whatever you think of him!)

Or even better, pattern a European version of it...

Remember: this stuff isn't implemented yet. You CAN stop it.

He who gives up his freedom for security is a fool, because, without freedom, you cannot properly protect yourself.

Join the Free State Project and let your freedom ring!

Interesting. NH has been selected by the Free State Project as the target state. I wonder what this means for them?

The money comes from the freedom. Liberty is the solution

That's correct. Nobel prize winner Milton Friedman analyzed the relationship in some detail.

And that's why I am a supporter of the Free State Project.

Liberty in our lifetime!

Welcome the land of the free and home of the brave. Please pick up your shackles, and cower down in the nearest corner of your own convenience.

NO!! Stand and Fight!

It's the least you can do in memory of the people who died trying to end such tyrrany.

any expansion of government -- any increase in scope, revenue, or power over the people -- benefits those who control government

Yep, same thing that Nobel laureates like Milton Friedman have said for decades.

So... you feel that the government has become a monster, interfering in your life? Instead of complaining, actually do something to Solve the Problem!

I should probably start learning the words to "O Canada."

In my opinion, you're better off learning the words to "Old New Hampshire". After all, New Hampshire is the One Best shot at a Free State!

New Hampshire -- why do you assume i'm a democrat? LP all the way.

--- Free America - Vote Libertarian [lp.org]

Check out the Free State Project if you haven't already. They are freeing America one state at a time. :)

20,000 Liberty Minded People, all fighting against this sort of thing, doing in one state.
Check out the Free State Project

Do this, and eliminate all income tax and suddenly the government's tracking costs go way down and there's an incentive for people and businesses to earn money.

I, of course, wish I was living in a less socialist swamp. But I can move somewhere if I like.

Get it in your head once and for good: "People are not equal! People will never be equal!"

You said it, buddy.

You would think, with so many millions of people who have survived through "enforced equality" (Communism, and its slightly-less-ugly bastard brother, Socialism), that people would get the lesson by now:

Any just society inherently entails inequality of outcomes

Sigh... it almost makes me want to join ESR and the rest of the Free Staters.

...if someone offers me money for certain, key private information tidbits, I wont give it. ...

Interesting comment.

It is a violation of United States federal law to use a social security number for identification purposes. And it is still (barely) possible for a U.S. citizen to reach the age of maturity without obtaining a social security number. However, it would be very difficult to obtain a bank account in that case. After a long discussion with a bank manager, I found out I would have to pay the bank $10,000 per year in order to maintain an account with no social security number on file. That's the amount the bank would be fined for maintaining an account without reporting the social security number of the account holder. (The possibility of an account holder not possessing a social security number is not comprehended by the banking statutes.)

So is your privacy worth $10,000/year? Or is it worth the inconvenience of avoiding any kind of banking transaction? After due consideration, I reluctantly decided that mine is not. If you live in the U.S. and have chosen otherwise, I salute you. When are you moving to New Hampshire?

There isn't a lot you can do, unfortunately. Direct democracy destroyed this country. When we had a federal government restrained and bound by the limitations the Constitution placed on it, we had a country where you were free to move to a better State that supported your morals, goals, and desires. After the War between States, Lincoln reduced our republican democracy (with a strong restriction on the size of the federal government) to a direct democracy. Over the next 140 years, more and more of our rights were regulated -- something that our Constitution should have prevented.

Had the South won Lincoln's illegal war, we would have had competitive Constitutions that hopefully held the U.S. in line. Imagine if the U.S. tried mercantilism and corporate welfare when the Confederate Constitution explicitly forbid any government funding of private enterprise. Businesses would have left the North for sure.

What can we do now? Not much. The Free State Project holds some hope, but is it enough?

The Republicans and the Democrats control every election in the country. They will never, ever permit a third party to become powerful. As much as they might "disagree", the two parties will block any other parties from being equal partners at the table.

Which is exactly the reason third parties aren't succesful - people are convinced they can't be successful. It can't happen overnight, it's not possible to change the system that quickly. It will also have to come from the bottom up, starting local and building up - there's no way a libertarian could win the presidency and start a top down change. Maybe the freestate project will take off and give a boost, who knows. I don't think we have a choice, we've got to get away from the republicrats. Whining that "they'll never let us succeed" however will leave us where we are.

The fact that we talk about a "third party", like three is some kind of magical number, is indicative. I want TWENTY parties. At least.

Be careful with that - have a look at what 14 parties almost did to France last year.

Move to New Hampshire, the free state, and set this up. I know, voting procedures and libertarianism are two different topics. But they are related in the sense that they are both progressive attempts to reform government. Perhaps it would be easier to advocate such a project in a free New Hampshire (should the Free State project succeed) than elsewhere. Just a random thought.

If you vote according to your lifestyle.

I vote for government to get out of everybody else's business. I don't vote to make people do anything. Here's a link to a screensaver I recently installed on my computer at work which will explain a lot about how I think. I think your jaw will drop when you see it.

I think the government should be Constitutionally restricted from doing anything other than its basic function of protecting us from each other; that definitely does not include allowing the government to choose our values.

If you think the way you live makes you better

I can't see how you should care what I think about myself. Obviously you think the way you live makes you better than me. You're starting to sound awfully hypocritical.

If you make your children feel

I can't see how the way my children feel is any concern of yours, either.

Worse, if your children rebel

Having never rebelled against my father's morals, which I willingly choose as my own, I think I'm pretty well-versed in how to impart my morals without inciting rebellion.

If you marry

Okay, buddy, get out of my bedroom. If you'll do some reading you'll find that committed monogamous relationships actually have better sex and happier people, but that's still exceedingly none of your business.

My fiance and I willingly choose to live our lives this way, and that's nobody's concern but ours. I keep saying it, and I don't think you believe it, but we are happy this way. Both of us, not just me.

Your final comment about my wife's choices sounds like you wouldn't be happy with us choosing to live this way no matter what, as if you feel you know better than us and need to protect her from me. (And as if you think I'm coercing her into something.)

If any of those things, then yes I'd have a problem with the way you live.

I'll end things with a, "Tough; we're not going to stop you from living the way you live, so get over the way we live."

P.S. If this conversation really means that much to you, why don't you log in?

Psh. Come to New Hampshire instead. :)

hmmm... New Hampshire is on that list - but not for long!

We would much prefer the foes to clearly define themselves... terrorists don't wear uniforms and march under a common flag you know.

> (thus impoverishing the government)

It wouldn't be impoverished if they stopped playing the role of a twisted robbin hood.. stealing from the middle and upper class and giving it away to anyone who asks... here or abroad.

Our BigGov needs to get back to basics.. actually doing what it is mandated to do by the constitution.. that alone would resolve many of these issues.

If you agree.. I'd encourage you to join up with the Free State Project and help set an example of how things CAN be done.

Georgy was tragically mauled by Arnold supporters after she tapped one of them in the side of the head with her book when they wouldn't move to the other side of the stage on cue.

She reportedly begged the first paramedics to tell animal control officers to put the half-dozen 13-year old boys to sleep as soon as possible, because "they're such fucking dorks, God."

Spokesmen for the Arnold campaign explained that "Arnoold votahs are intehnsely terrytoryal, and if one of their persanal spahces is compramahsed, they'll attack the intruder like abooncha gohdam pyrahhnas! Hooo! Looka the teeth oon thaone!"

Art Bell discounts the Schwarzenegger campaign's explaination, and suspects the boys may be under the control of Libertarian Party satellites launched from their secret clubhouse deep in the woodlands of New Hampshire.

In other news, Yassir Arafat dropped dead. But he's better now.

After the break: Could Matt Drudge look any more like a retarded fisherman in that damn hat of his? Jesus, Matt. They have gay guys now that can help you with that.

The FSP has recently selected New Hampshire as the state they are going to target for a "plan in which 20,000 or more liberty-oriented people will move to a single state of the U.S., where they may work within the political system to reduce the size and scope of government".

That's why I don't think we who value our basic liberties have much time left. Others might ask why I haven't moved (I live in the U.S.), without realizing that there really isn't any place on the globe worth moving to. As far as I know, there isn't a single government on the planet that cherishes liberty and works towards maximizing that for its people. And even if there were, chances are most people wouldn't be able to go there anyway because of strict immigration laws.

You need to talk to these folks...

Free State Project - Liberty in our Lifetime